Sabbath: In A Ditch Regarding the Seventh Day [Archive]

Antipas

05-13-2008, 02:14 PM

I’ve been studying the Sabbath and I’m kinda, “in a ditch”. I need some of you more knowledgeable types to help me.

Here’s where I’m at a loss…

The Sabbath Commandment is in the Ten Commandments:

'Exod 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.'

I used to see this commandment as though it was commanding a day of rest devoted to the Lord. I thought that what better day to choose for the Christian than Sunday, the day when Christ arose from the dead. I was also taught that we observe the Sabbath “spiritually” by entering into the “rest” of Jesus when I obeyed the gospel and now everyday is a “sabbath” wherein I rest from the “works of the law”. But then I read this passage and something jumped out at me. It specifically calls us to set apart the “seventh day” by stated that “the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD.” That leaves us little room in choosing which day to set apart for rest and worship. That detail keeps gnawing at me.

The Ten Commandments also state:

Exod 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

In my mind these commandments are to be obeyed as they are written. I’m struggling with reconciling the “spiritual Sabbath” idea because who would spiritualize the commandment against adultery? No one would say that it doesn’t matter what woman you have relations with, this is about choosing only Jesus as your Lord. So I feel an uneasiness in relation to the Sabbath day, according to Scripture this is the “seventh day” regardless as to the spiritual dimensions of Christ’s rest during this gospel era.

I sought to relieve these feelings by calling on Colossians 2:16-17…

Col 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come: but the body is of Christ.

But in my studies I discovered that this may not be talking about the “Sabbath Day” in the Ten Commandments, but rather it may be speaking of the High Holy Days of the Jewish calendar that served as days of convalescence. For example the Passover was regarded as not only a feast day…but a “sabbath”. One could claim that this doesn’t cancel out the moral Law of the Ten Commandments with some merit. Also Romans 14:5-6 has been used to resolve this situation, but the focus seems to be on ethnic holidays not necessarily a day that is commanded by God’s moral Law.

Jesus said,

Matt 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

What about the Sabbath Day as commanded in the Ten Commandants? Are we teaching men to break that commandment by not teaching that the “seventh day” be observed as holy unto the Lord? So I turned to the book of Acts. Here’s what I found:

Acts 13:13-16 Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem. But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

Acts13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Paul even turned to the Gentiles on the Sabbath:

Acts 13:44-46 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 15:19-22 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

Luke writes:

Acts 16:13 And on the Sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

Paul’s custom was to teach on the Sabbath:

Acts 17:1-2 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18:1-4 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth; And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome: ) and came unto them. And because he was of the came craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers. And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

It appears that Paul taught quite a bit on the Sabbath Day. We read of one instance in which Paul teaches on the “first day” or Sunday:

Acts 20:1-7 And after the uproar was ceased, Paul called unto him the disciples, and embraced them, and departed for to go into Macedonia. And when he had gone over those parts, and had given them much exhortation, he came into Greece, And there abode three months. And when the Jews laid wait for him, as he was about to sail into Syria, he purposed to return through Macedonia. And there accompanied him into Asia Sopater of Berea; and of the Thessalonians, Aristarchus and Secundus; and Gaius of Derbe, and Timotheus; and of Asia, Tychicus and Trophimus. These going before tarried for us at Troas. And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days. And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

It appears that Paul at least held one study with these disciples on the day after the Sabbath when they would fellowship and break bread. And all know that Paul advised that an offering be set aside on the first day of the week among the Corinthians:

I Cor 16:1-2 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

It appears that Paul wanted the Corinthians to begin setting aside their offerings on the first day of the week so that there would be no need for additional gathers when he came to pick up the offering for the saints struggling in famine.

My problem is that neither of these two verses appear strong enough to say that it was the practice of the Apostles to gather on Sunday instead of Saturday; nor are they sufficient to nullify the Sabbath commandment in the Ten Commandments.

I have a friend who’s a Seventh Day Sabbath keeper. I once asked him if he kept the Sabbath laws as commanded by Moses. He explained that the Sabbath laws as commanded by Moses were ceremonial and nailed to the cross….however the Ten Commandments command us to set aside the “seventh” day to rest and keep it holy unto the LORD for worship. His contention is that the Ten Commandments (moral law) only commands rest and reverence not the Mosaic legalism of the Law of Moses. I was speechless and had nothing to respond with.

Now it’s bothering me bros. Can someone help me out with this one?

mfblume

05-13-2008, 02:25 PM

Antipas

05-13-2008, 02:30 PM

Antipas

05-13-2008, 02:44 PM

I’m going to ask questions on this in favor of Sabbath keeping in the hopes that you can address my concerns. God bless you Bro. Blume.

There is no New Testament directive anywhere to keep a sabbath day. After the cross we read nothing of Jesus EVER keeping the sabbath.

That’s an argument from silence so it really doesn’t hold much weight. We don’t read of him specifically not observing the Sabbath either.

Paul only preached in synagogues on the sabbath because that is where the Jews, whom he sought to reach, were in one place together at a time to effectively preach to them all, and Paul had access to the synagogues at that time.

They only observed sabbath when they were with other Jews.

What about the references regarding Paul speaking to the Gentiles on the Sabbath?

After Acts 18 nothing is said about sabbath day.

Again, that’s an argument from silence.

Every day belongs to the Lord. In fact sabbath helps the error that we serve God one day a week and then do what we want the rest of the week. Lol

Sabbath keepers don’t believe that one serves God only one day a week. They believe in keeping the Ten Commandments, which leads them to observe the seventh day as commanded. Do you believe in keeping the Ten Commandments Bro. Blume?

There is no sabbath day now. It was a law thing.

The Sabbath originated with creation and was only institutionalized under the Law. The Law required many legalistic requirements of the Sabbath, but these were to ensure that the Sabbath was kept; these laws didn’t establish the Sabbath.

Are we to keep the Ten Commandments? Yes or No?

Encryptus

05-13-2008, 02:52 PM

TRFrance

05-13-2008, 02:56 PM

My problem is that neither of these two verses appear strong enough to say that it was the practice of the Apostles to gather on Sunday instead of Saturday; nor are they sufficient to nullify the Sabbath commandment in the Ten Commandments.

I have a friend who’s a Seventh Day Sabbath keeper. I once asked him if he kept the Sabbath laws as commanded by Moses. He explained that the Sabbath laws as commanded by Moses were ceremonial and nailed to the cross….however the Ten Commandments command us to set aside the “seventh” day to rest and keep it holy unto the LORD for worship. His contention is that the Ten Commandments (moral law) only commands rest and reverence not the Mosaic legalism of the Law of Moses. I was speechless and had nothing to respond with.

Now it’s bothering me bros. Can someone help me out with this one?

I'll just add my 2 cents to the mix. Hope it helps.

1... The Sabbath was not something given to mankind in and of itself. The Sabbath was given to the Nation of Israel. The Sabbath was a sign between God and the Nation of Israel.And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. (Deut 5:15)

13Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
14Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
(Ex 31:13-17)
2... No one observed the Sabbath before God gave it to Moses. If the Sabbath was something God intended for all his creation to keep, why did not one keep it before God gave it to Moses & Israel in the wilderness?
We have to see the significance in the fact neither Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, etc... <---none of these OT saints were asked to keep the sabbath before the Law came.

Thus, the Sabbath commandment is not for us in the church age.
*****

Furthermore, when Christians say that the Sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday, they're kinda missing the point. The New Testament doesn't say the Sabbath was changed. That just misses the key issue entirely. The fact is that we are no longer required to keep a "sabbath" day...and over time the Church began to keep Sunday over Saturday as its preferred "day of the Lord".

Keep in mind that Paul and the first Apostles were Jews, so just from their tradition, Saturday was the Lord's day. So it would be natural that they continued to gather on Saturday as their "sabbath" or day of the Lord. That doesn't mean the Sabbath is still a requirement for the church.

Keep in mind that Paul made it clear that if a man chooses to keep Saturday a preferred holy day he can do that, but he is not required to, nor should he judge anyone who chooses not to do so. (Romans 5:4-6) 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.

6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord;and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
and Col 2:16-1716 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
So don't be sidetracked by Sabbatarians that say that "there's no NT scripture that nullifies the Sabbath commandment." Being under grace, not under the Law of Moses, the church is not required to keep the sabbath, as Israel was.

mfblume

05-13-2008, 02:57 PM

I’m going to ask questions on this in favor of Sabbath keeping in the hopes that you can address my concerns. God bless you Bro. Blume.

That’s an argument from silence so it really doesn’t hold much weight. We don’t read of him specifically not observing the Sabbath either.

In this case, silence says volumes. We need direct teachings before we are to engage in anything. Unless we are told to keep the sabbath, then why keep it?

If the bible was to lay out everything NOT TO DO, rather than ONLY relate WHAT TO DO, then the world could not contain the books that would have to be written. Therefore, common sense leaves us to conclude that we do not keep anything that the New Testament does not directly tell us to keep.

Catholics told me that babies were not said to not be baptized, so why preach against it?

What about the references regarding Paul speaking to the Gentiles on the Sabbath?

The context says they saw Paul do so to the Jews on the sabbath and simply asked him to do the same. It certainly does not show Paul kept sabbath.

Again, that’s an argument from silence.
Not really. It shows nothing about teaching sabbath was ever mentioned in the New Testament.

Sabbath keepers don’t believe that one serves God only one day a week. They believe in keeping the Ten Commandments, which leads them to observe the seventh day as commanded. Do you believe in keeping the Ten Commandments Bro. Blume?

I believe I keep all the commandments. And sabbath day was a shadow of actual sabbath rest which the New Testament mentions by way of the eternal rest, in Heb 4. SO I keep the body of Christ and not the Old Testament shadow of a day.

The Sabbath originated with creation and was only institutionalized under the Law. The Law required many legalistic requirements of the Sabbath, but these were to ensure that the Sabbath was kept; these laws didn’t establish the Sabbath.

Nothing was said about man keeping any sabbath before law. We only read God rested the seventh day, with no requirements for man to do the same until Law came.

Are we to keep the Ten Commandments? Yes or No?

Sure. But the 4th, between the first three that deal with God, and the remaining 6 that deal with man, the sabbath is unique. It alone of the commandments was a shadow of the body of Christ. I have the body so I keep the fourth, too.

mfblume

05-13-2008, 02:58 PM

I'll just add my 2 cents to the mix. Hope it helps.

1... The Sabbath was not something given to mankind in and of itself. The Sabbath was given to the Nation of Israel. The Sabbath was a sign between God and the Nation of Israel.

Amen. People in the northern polar region would have to keep one day holy for what we would see as several weeks, since it is seventh sundown to sundown.

Baron1710

05-13-2008, 03:01 PM

Praxeas

05-13-2008, 03:10 PM

To add to this, my friend believes that it is prophesied that God’s people will restore the seventh day Sabbath observance after many generations of neglecting it:

Isaiah 58:12-14 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in. If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Is it prophesied that God’s people will restore Sabbath observance?
Does he also believe the Anti-Christ will institute "Sunday Laws" and that worship on SUnday is the mark of the beast?

Anyways...aside from the SDA types...consider that ALL those commandments are reiterated in the New Testament BUT for the Sabbath day observance.

The Sabbath, like circumcision, was a covenant sign to Israel. We are in the NEW Covenant now though.

According to how the sabbath was originally intended it was NOT a day of worship but a day of rest.

Antipas

05-13-2008, 03:10 PM

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=13557&highlight=noahide

Read above thread. The answer according to the Jew is no.

The ten commandments were not intended for the gentile.

A righteous gentile need only keep the seven.

Praise the Lord, welcome to the discussion. Again, I’m going to go to bat for Sabbath keeping with some strong statements. This is in the hopes that some of you can address my concerns. God bless you.

Here’s what Paul wrote to Timothy:

I Timothy 1:8-11 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Paul said that the law (moral Law) was good if used lawfully…Paul didn’t omit anything from the Law. The Noahide tradition is of Jewish origin, the Jews do not define what Gentiles are bound to obey…God does. And God doesn’t change. The Moral Law of the Ten Commandments is eternal Jesus himself said,

Matt 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The Law of God (the Ten Commandments) is eternal, majestic, and holy.

Please note…God established the Sabbath BEFORE there was a Jew…therefore the Sabbath isn’t “Jewish”…it’s eternal and grounded in the very pattern of the Creation. The Law only set stipulations by which the Jew was to observe it…the Law didn’t establish the Sabbath.

TRFrance

05-13-2008, 03:17 PM

Please note…God established the Sabbath BEFORE there was a Jew…therefore the Sabbath isn’t “Jewish”…it’s eternal and grounded in the very pattern of the Creation. The Law only set stipulations by which the Jew was to observe it…the Law didn’t establish the Sabbath.

Antipas...

The Sabbath was never given to anyone before Exodus 16, after God had brought the nation of Israel out of Egypt.
And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
(Ex 16:23)
....so how do you conclude that "God established the Sabbath before there was a Jew"?

Please explain that to us.

Praxeas

05-13-2008, 03:24 PM

That’s an argument from silence so it really doesn’t hold much weight. We don’t read of him specifically not observing the Sabbath either.
That is not an argument from silence. Look, if the bible never ever from Genesis to Revelation mentions a rest day and you come along and say "Well the bible never mentions not doing it, so we SHOULD do it" then that would be an argument from silence.

It's an important argument. Why SHOULD we keep the sabbath if the bible does not say we have to keep the sabbath? That is not an argument from silence. It's pointing out that we have a NEW COVENANT and in the NC we are not told we have to keep a sabbath day rest.

What about the references regarding Paul speaking to the Gentiles on the Sabbath?
It was not just gentiles but Jews. The Gentiles in this case below were converts to Judaism. The Jews still kept the sabbath day.

Act 13:42 As they went out, the people begged that these things might be told them the next Sabbath.
Act 13:43 And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, urged them to continue in the grace of God.

What did Paul do on the first day of the week though? He gathered with the church
Act 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.

1Co 16:2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come.

One reason for gathering as a church on the first day (the Lord's day, the day of His resurrection) was so on the Sabbath they can go to the Jews and evangelize

Again, that’s an argument from silence.
Prove it is. Just saying it is so does not make it so. Pointing out that the NT does not command us to keep the Sabbath is not an argument from silence. A command is.....a COMMAND. And there IS NO COMMAND. That is the whole point. In the New Covenant there IS NO COMMAND to do this or that. That is a valid point. You are arguing we have a commandment to keep....but that commandment is for an Old Covenant.

Sabbath keepers don’t believe that one serves God only one day a week. They believe in keeping the Ten Commandments, which leads them to observe the seventh day as commanded. Do you believe in keeping the Ten Commandments Bro. Blume?
I believe in the commandment of Love. We are under LOVE and under LOVE we are expressly taught what we are to do or not do. It's in the New Testament.

The Sabbath originated with creation and was only institutionalized under the Law. The Law required many legalistic requirements of the Sabbath, but these were to ensure that the Sabbath was kept; these laws didn’t establish the Sabbath.

Are we to keep the Ten Commandments? Yes or No?
No. We are to keep the New Law which is given under a New Covenant. In that New Covenant you can find what a sin is...the works of the flesh. Not once are we told that includes not keeping sabbath days

Antipas

05-13-2008, 03:25 PM

In this case, silence says volumes. We need direct teachings before we are to engage in anything. Unless we are told to keep the sabbath, then why keep it?

Are the Ten Commandments...commandments?

The argument from silence doesn't speak volumes. For the writers of Scripture often take for granted regular practices or experiences. For example nowhere does the Scripture state that the Philippian Jailor spoke in tongues or was baptized in the Holy Ghost. Why didn't the writer write about it? Because in Luke's mind it was a given, a no brainer, assumed that the reader wouldn't know any other process.

If the bible was to lay out everything NOT TO DO, rather than ONLY relate WHAT TO DO, then the world could not contain the books that would have to be written. Therefore, common sense leaves us to conclude that we do not keep anything that the New Testament does not directly tell us to keep.

Are you saying that the Ten Commandments are not binding?

Catholics told me that babies were not said to not be baptized, so why preach against it?

That doesn't compare. We see repeated references to the Sabbath being kept and even repeated commandments to keep it. It appears that the Church may have continued keeping the Sabbath seeing the references in Acts. However, the authors would have been taking it for granted not knowing that hundreds of years later the days would be shifted. For example in the Revelation John writes that he was in the Spirit on, "the Lord's day". We often assume that was Sunday...but the only "Lord's day" John would have known would have been the Sabbath day...for that is the only day in Scripture refered to as being such. As for infant baptism...we see it NOWHERE. So the two really don't compare.

The context says they saw Paul do so to the Jews on the sabbath and simply asked him to do the same. It certainly does not show Paul kept sabbath.

Why didn't any Jew ever condemn Paul or any Christian for not keeping the Sabbath?

Not really. It shows nothing about teaching sabbath was ever mentioned in the New Testament.

Again the writers may not have needed to address a universal understanding.

I believe I keep all the commandments. And sabbath day was a shadow of actual sabbath rest which the New Testament mentions by way of the eternal rest, in Heb 4. SO I keep the body of Christ and not the Old Testament shadow of a day.

Nowhere does Scripture call the weekly Sabbath (the seventh day Sabbath) a shadow. The sabbaths refered to as being shadows are the high holy days of the Jewish Calander...they are not part of the Ten Commandments.

Nothing was said about man keeping any sabbath before law. We only read God rested the seventh day, with no requirements for man to do the same until Law came.

God established the Sabbath at Creation and having created man on the sixth day, kept man at rest in the garden on the Seventh Day.

Sure. But the 4th, between the first three that deal with God, and the remaining 6 that deal with man, the sabbath is unique. It alone of the commandments was a shadow of the body of Christ. I have the body so I keep the fourth, too.

The Sabbath deals with God...God is commanding a time set apart for him, so it has to do with our dealing with God. Would one "spiritualize" the commandment against adultery?

Praxeas

05-13-2008, 03:25 PM

BTW circumcision was established before the law too...how many sabbath keepers want to identify with the judaizers in demanding you have to be circumcised too?

Antipas

05-13-2008, 03:27 PM

Amen. People in the northern polar region would have to keep one day holy for what we would see as several weeks, since it is seventh sundown to sundown.

Jews see no issue with keeping the Sabbath in exotic environments. I think that's grasping for dismal.

Praxeas

05-13-2008, 03:27 PM

The argument from silence doesn't speak volumes.
it is NOT an argument from silence.

The Sabbath was a covenant sign for Israel under the Old Covenant

Exo 31:13 "You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.
Exo 31:14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exo 31:15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'"
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

Antipas

05-13-2008, 03:28 PM

Colossians 2:15-17

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The "sabbaths" refered to are not "the Sabbath" of the Commandments. The sabbaths refered to are the days of convalescense established in the Jewish feast days. Paul isn't nullifying the Ten Commandments.

Antipas

05-13-2008, 03:30 PM

BTW circumcision was established before the law too...how many sabbath keepers want to identify with the judaizers in demanding you have to be circumcised too?

Paul specifically equates baptism with circumscision...so yes.

TRFrance

05-13-2008, 03:44 PM

Antipas, feel free to respond to the question I asked you (in post #12),

.... or to the scripture references I gave you in my post before that (post #6).

Praxeas

05-13-2008, 03:53 PM

Paul specifically equates baptism with circumscision...so yes.
No he does not equate it with circumcision. He says we are circumcised in the heart, not flesh.

But since you brought that up, hebrews speaks of another rest

Praxeas

05-13-2008, 03:53 PM

Paul specifically equates baptism with circumscision...so yes.
Antipas, you skipped over several of my posts for that one on circumcision, can you address the others?

TRFrance

05-13-2008, 03:58 PM

Antipas, you skipped over several of my posts for that one on circumcision, can you address the others?

I noticed he seemed to be selective about what posts he chooses to respond to.

Encryptus

05-13-2008, 04:04 PM

Praise the Lord, welcome to the discussion.

Oh I only pointed to a thread, Avahat Elohim wrote it: but since you didn't click on the thread I'll cut and paste it for you:

There have been many opinions expressed on this topic here. Especially in regard to keeping Shabbat.

May I present the Jewish perspective?

God loves us all. "Righteous people of all nations have a share in the world to come" (Sanhedrin 105a). He does not leave anyone, Jew or non-Jew without guidance. To the non-Jew He has given the Seven Commandments.

After the flood which killed everyone but Noah and his family, God sealed a covenant with Noah with the following seven admonitions:

1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder.
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit adultery.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
6. Prohibition of Cruelty to Animals: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
7. Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to fairly judge observance of the preceding six laws

These Seven Laws of Noah are a set of seven moral imperatives which, according to the Talmud, were given by God to Noah as a binding set of laws for all mankind. Judaism states any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as a Righteous Gentile and is assured of a place in the world to come. Adherents are often called "B'nei Noah" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides" and often network in Jewish synagogues.

In Judaism, the ten commandments given Moses and the resulting 613 mitzvot or "commandments" given in the written Torah, as well as their reasonings in the oral Torah, were only issued to the Jews and are therefore only binding upon them, having inherited the obligation from their ancestors. Some Rabbinic opinion holds that not only are non-Jews not obligated to adhere to all the laws of the Torah, but they are actually forbidden to observe them. Rabbinic Judaism AND its modern-day descendants discourage proselytization. The Noahide Laws are regarded as the way through which non-Jews can have a direct and meaningful relationship with God or at least comply with the minimal requisites of civilization and of divine law.

The Talmud states a non-Jew who keeps the Noahide Law in all its details is said to attain the same spiritual and moral level as Israel's own Kohen Gadol (high priest). In a similar statement Maimonides states in his work Mishneh Torah that a non-Jew who is precise in the observance of these Seven Noahide commandments is considered to be a "Righteous Gentile" and has earned a place in the world to come.

Some such as Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, leader of the Chabad Lubavitch world Jewish movement believe that the Noahide Laws observance by all humankind will bring about universal peace and the Messianic Redemption.

(However, according to Maimonides, a gentile is considered righteous only if a person follows the Noahide laws specifically because he or she considers them to be of divine origin, through the Torah, and not if they are merely considered to be intellectually compelling or good rules for living.)

From the perspective of traditional halakhah, if a non-Jew keeps all of the laws covered by the Seven Noahide commandments, then he or she is considered a Ger Toshav "Sojourning Alien" amid the people of Israel. A "Ger Toshav" is the only kind of non-Jew who Jewish law permits to live among the Jewish people in the Land of Israel when the land is run according to Halacha and there is Sanhedrin/Temple.

(A Ger Toshav should not be confused with a Ger Tzedek who is a person who prefers to proceed to total conversion to Judaism, a procedure that is traditionally discouraged by Judaism and allowed to take place only after much thought and deliberation over converting.)

At this point I am sure there are others better qualified who would like to take up the discussion on the following topic:

It my understanding that the main disagreement among the early “apostles” was because the gentiles converts to Yeshua where considered by some to be Ger Tzedek and therefore should also obey all the mitzvot, but one Apostle Paul argued that Christianity was not just a division of Judaism and the gentiles should not bring themselves under the law, but were instead saved by “grace.”

(Perhaps part of the reason some thought the gentile coverts to Christianity to be Ger Tzedek may have been in part because of the baptism rituals practiced by Christians, which so closely mirrored those followed by gentiles who converted to Judaism, but that will be a different article).

Shalom

mfblume

05-13-2008, 04:36 PM

Are the Ten Commandments...commandments?

The argument from silence doesn't speak volumes. For the writers of Scripture often take for granted regular practices or experiences.
A change of covenants is too serious a matter to leave anyone guessing what and what not is retained. I claim Rom 14 shows sabbath keeping is offkey today as well as Col 2 and Gal 4.

For example nowhere does the Scripture state that the Philippian Jailor spoke in tongues or was baptized in the Holy Ghost. Why didn't the writer write about it? Because in Luke's mind it was a given, a no brainer, assumed that the reader wouldn't know any other process.

Of course! That is because the REST of the New Testament showed it forth.

Are you saying that the Ten Commandments are not binding?

No. Why think that? I am saying that the 10- Commandments are all repeated in the New Covenant except for the fourth. And the fourth is directly said to be fulfilled in Christ in Col 2, Gal 4, and is spoken against in Rom 14.

Catholics told me that babies were not said to not be baptized, so why preach against it?That doesn't compare. We see repeated references to the Sabbath being kept and even repeated commandments to keep it.

Never were we told to keep sabbath in the New Testament. Never. It stands that the Bible could not tell us all the things to NOT do, for there would be too many.

It appears that the Church may have continued keeping the Sabbath seeing the references in Acts.

We cannot base doctirne on what would appear. Imagine if salvation were left up to what appeared to be the case without direct teaching about it?

However, the authors would have been taking it for granted not knowing that hundreds of years later the days would be shifted.

God inspired the writers knowing we would be reading this thousands of years later.

For example in the Revelation John writes that he was in the Spirit on, "the Lord's day". We often assume that was Sunday...but the only "Lord's day" John would have known would have been the Sabbath day...for that is the only day in Scripture refered to as being such. As for infant baptism...we see it NOWHERE. So the two really don't compare.
Yes they do compare. The Sabbath was never called the LORD'S DAY, for one thing.

Why didn't any Jew ever condemn Paul or any Christian for not keeping the Sabbath?

Paul did not want that to be an issue to throw walls up before the Jews. He became all things to all people so that he might win some.

Nowhere does Scripture call the weekly Sabbath (the seventh day Sabbath) a shadow. The sabbaths refered to as being shadows are the high holy days of the Jewish Calander...they are not part of the Ten Commandments.

Sabbath day was a sabbath. lol.

Col 2 mentions SABBATH DAYS, and does not distinguish them.

God established the Sabbath at Creation and having created man on the sixth day, kept man at rest in the garden on the Seventh Day.

Show me where God told man to rest back there.

The Sabbath deals with God...God is commanding a time set apart for him, so it has to do with our dealing with God. Would one "spiritualize" the commandment against adultery?

God spiritualized sabbath, not me. And adultery has a spiritual version as well as physical, but not so with sabbath any more. And I already said the sabbath was unique in that sense.

mfblume

05-13-2008, 04:39 PM

Jews see no issue with keeping the Sabbath in exotic environments. I think that's grasping for dismal.

It is an issue. Jews excused demands to properly keep every law with the Babylonian Talmud anyway. Sundown to sundown is the commandment and does not work everywhere.

I think you keep sabbath, or are going to, and are using this idea of taking the sabbath side as a ruse. lol

My example shows that sabbath was meant for ISRAEL ALONE, and not the world. God was not stupid. He said sundown to sundown. However way any Jews twist that today is still a twist.

mfblume

05-13-2008, 04:47 PM

To the non-Jew He has given the Seven Commandments.

After the flood which killed everyone but Noah and his family, God sealed a covenant with Noah with the following seven admonitions:

1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder.
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit adultery.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
6. Prohibition of Cruelty to Animals: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
7. Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to fairly judge observance of the preceding six laws

These Seven Laws of Noah are a set of seven moral imperatives which, according to the Talmud, were given by God to Noah as a binding set of laws for all mankind. Judaism states any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as a Righteous Gentile and is assured of a place in the world to come. Adherents are often called "B'nei Noah" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides" and often network in Jewish synagogues.

Note that the Bible does not contain these seven laws in Noah's account, but it appears in Jewish writings Christians do not consider inspired of God.

A Jew regards a gentile as violating the first Noahide Law against idolatry if he/she believes Jesus is God incarnate. Pass the Noahide laws and in time Christianity will be illegal.

Carry on! :D

TRFrance

05-13-2008, 04:59 PM

Some interesting comments I also found on the 'net regarding the topic at hand:

Sabbatarians Are Not Keeping The Saturday Sabbath

Saturday Sabbatarians claim to keep the Sabbath command as was given to Israel, but in reality are only keeping a modified Sabbath regulation, which is not keeping it at all! Below are three reasons why this is so:

(A) In the OT, when this command was given to Israel and enforced, people were to be put to death for desecrating the Sabbath (Ex. 31:14,15):"Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested" (Exo. 31:14-17).A man was put to death for violating this command (Num. 15:32-36). So the same ones (Israel) that kept the Sabbath put to death Sabbath violators. Sabbatarians are NOT doing this!

(B) The Sabbath keepers were NOT allowed to light a fire on the Sabbath day:"Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day" (Ex. 35:3, KJV).If your heat in the winter is automatic through your furnace, you are violating this command. If you light your stove on the Sabbath you violate this command. If have an automatic hot water heater you are violating this command. Finally, if you start your car on the Sabbath, you have also violated this command given to Israel. Note: When you start your car, you start a fire that did not exist moments before.

(C) On "EVERY Sabbath" there is to be a burnt offering:"On the Sabbath day, make an offering of two lambs a year old without defect, together with its drink offering and a grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil. This is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, in addition to the regular burnt offering and its drink offering" (Num. 28:9,10).

This OT command for Sabbath keepers is clearly forbidden under the New Covenant in light of the book of Hebrews. The early Christians didn't do this and, therefore, did not keep the Saturday Sabbath command like Israel (Ex. 20:8-11 cf. Num. 28:9,10).

(full article here: http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/sabbath.htm) (http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/sabbath.htm)

Sept5SavedTeen

05-13-2008, 05:49 PM

I am a former SDA, and there's a sister in my assembly who is also a former SDA, and we joke about our time with that group and our sabbath keeping.

Antipas,
I DO believe in the "spiritual sabbath" as you say. I believe ALL the moral Law has been magnified and "spiritualized" if you will. It's not "Thou shall not commit adultery" it's "Thou shalt not lust" for me, and it's not "Thou shall not murder" it is "Thou shall not hate thy brother", this is what has happened with the Ten Commandments, and as for #4, I now find my rest in Christ. I don't even try to argue with sabbath keepers about Sunday, because Sunday has no special significance. Worship on Saturday or Sunday if you want, it doesn't matter. Rest from your labor when you desire, as long as you are not "resting" all the time, which would be lazy, and a Christian wouldn't want to be lazy anyways. And rest spiritually knowing that Christ did HIS work on the cross and nailed the Law to the cross!

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Jason B

05-13-2008, 08:12 PM

Antipas,
Here are my thoughts. I belive the entire law of moses 613 commands was in effect until the death of Christ and subsequent resurrection.

Matt 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

When was all fulfilled,
John 19:30
Hebrews 9:15-17
Ephesians 2:13-16
Hebrews 7:12, 18-19,22

You asked, “Are you saying that the Ten Commandments are not binding?”
I believe that all of the law was done away with, including the 10 commandments which were part of the law. (similar to what church of christ teaches-exceprt for I equate the law with the 613 laws, not the entire old testament, which is their error, and why they think they have to preach against musical instruments).
However, 9 of the 10 commandments are repeated, and even taken to a higher level (ex. adultery can be mental, not only physical).

I think that silence on the sabbath, combined with the teachings from Hebrews 4 and Colossians 2, as well as romans 14, is quite a bit of teaching on the subject. It is not binding, in fact it is basically impossible to keep as laid out in the Old testament.

TRFrance

05-13-2008, 08:55 PM

Antipas has gotten kinda quiet lately.

Kinda strange.

Sept5SavedTeen

05-13-2008, 09:09 PM

Antipas has gotten kinda quiet lately.

Kinda strange.

He's resting...

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

James Griffin

05-13-2008, 09:18 PM

Antipas has gotten kinda quiet lately.

Kinda strange.

Cut him a break this was his first attempt at "theological" posts.

:-)

Praxeas

05-13-2008, 09:34 PM

The sabbath was specifically a covenant sign to Israel as part of the Old Covenant.

Which covenant was replaced by the New Covenant. Which in turn begs the question of whether or not it is a New Covenant teaching. Which gives support to questioning or pointing what if anything the NT says or does not say on it.

Paul said to not let anyone judge you in pertaining to Sabbaths as well as other things. They had problems with judaizers.

Circumcision was not a requirement though that preceeded the law.

The Apostolic council, which met to determine what the Gentiles should keep as pertaining to the Law never mentioned the Sabbath though they mentioned blood and foots offered to idols.

Anti-Pas...I summed up our arguments for you when you get back from "resting"..... :toofunny

Sam

05-13-2008, 09:41 PM

...nowhere does the Scripture state that the Philippian Jailor spoke in tongues or was baptized in the Holy Ghost. Why didn't the writer write about it? Because in Luke's mind it was a given, a no brainer, assumed that the reader wouldn't know any other process.
...

I think you are making an assumption here.
Because it is recorded that some early disciples received an experience which we call the Holy Ghost baptism (HGB), and because it is recorded that some of these who received that experience spoke with tongues and prophesied, does not mean that all early disciples had that same (HGB) experience or that they spoke with tongues.

mfblume

05-13-2008, 11:16 PM

The Apostolic council, which met to determine what the Gentiles should keep as pertaining to the Law never mentioned the Sabbath though they mentioned blood and foots offered to idols.

But I know what Sabbatarians say about that! They claim the mention of synagogues after that statement is meant to inform the gentiles they can hear about the rest from the synagogues. They do not realize it is actually saying the gentiles had better be told all they have to deal with, or else the synagogues will add more rules to them.

Acts 15:20-21 KJV But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. (21) For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Praxeas

05-14-2008, 12:31 AM

I think the purpose of this is that since there are Jews in every city and those Jews would be easily offended at gentiles eating food offered to idols and blood. So in order to help win the lost they told the Gentiles from abstaining.

This I get from reading what Paul later said about food and idols

Antipas

05-14-2008, 05:42 AM

No he does not equate it with circumcision. He says we are circumcised in the heart, not flesh.

But since you brought that up, hebrews speaks of another rest

Circumcision also isn't an issue of the Ten Commandments. It's important to separate the Law of God (the moral law - Ten Commandments) from the Law of Moses (social and ceremonial laws).

Antipas

05-14-2008, 05:45 AM

I noticed he seemed to be selective about what posts he chooses to respond to.

Don't get me wrong guys...you're giving me good stuff to work with. I'm just going back and studying the subject and presenting things about it that come to mind. So if I'm a bit slow responding on topic remember, I have to look into it.

Antipas

05-14-2008, 05:46 AM

Oh I only pointed to a thread, Avahat Elohim wrote it: but since you didn't click on the thread I'll cut and paste it for you:

There have been many opinions expressed on this topic here. Especially in regard to keeping Shabbat.

May I present the Jewish perspective?

God loves us all. "Righteous people of all nations have a share in the world to come" (Sanhedrin 105a). He does not leave anyone, Jew or non-Jew without guidance. To the non-Jew He has given the Seven Commandments.

After the flood which killed everyone but Noah and his family, God sealed a covenant with Noah with the following seven admonitions:

1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder.
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit adultery.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
6. Prohibition of Cruelty to Animals: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
7. Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to fairly judge observance of the preceding six laws

These Seven Laws of Noah are a set of seven moral imperatives which, according to the Talmud, were given by God to Noah as a binding set of laws for all mankind. Judaism states any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as a Righteous Gentile and is assured of a place in the world to come. Adherents are often called "B'nei Noah" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides" and often network in Jewish synagogues.

In Judaism, the ten commandments given Moses and the resulting 613 mitzvot or "commandments" given in the written Torah, as well as their reasonings in the oral Torah, were only issued to the Jews and are therefore only binding upon them, having inherited the obligation from their ancestors. Some Rabbinic opinion holds that not only are non-Jews not obligated to adhere to all the laws of the Torah, but they are actually forbidden to observe them. Rabbinic Judaism AND its modern-day descendants discourage proselytization. The Noahide Laws are regarded as the way through which non-Jews can have a direct and meaningful relationship with God or at least comply with the minimal requisites of civilization and of divine law.

The Talmud states a non-Jew who keeps the Noahide Law in all its details is said to attain the same spiritual and moral level as Israel's own Kohen Gadol (high priest). In a similar statement Maimonides states in his work Mishneh Torah that a non-Jew who is precise in the observance of these Seven Noahide commandments is considered to be a "Righteous Gentile" and has earned a place in the world to come.

Some such as Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, leader of the Chabad Lubavitch world Jewish movement believe that the Noahide Laws observance by all humankind will bring about universal peace and the Messianic Redemption.

(However, according to Maimonides, a gentile is considered righteous only if a person follows the Noahide laws specifically because he or she considers them to be of divine origin, through the Torah, and not if they are merely considered to be intellectually compelling or good rules for living.)

From the perspective of traditional halakhah, if a non-Jew keeps all of the laws covered by the Seven Noahide commandments, then he or she is considered a Ger Toshav "Sojourning Alien" amid the people of Israel. A "Ger Toshav" is the only kind of non-Jew who Jewish law permits to live among the Jewish people in the Land of Israel when the land is run according to Halacha and there is Sanhedrin/Temple.

(A Ger Toshav should not be confused with a Ger Tzedek who is a person who prefers to proceed to total conversion to Judaism, a procedure that is traditionally discouraged by Judaism and allowed to take place only after much thought and deliberation over converting.)

At this point I am sure there are others better qualified who would like to take up the discussion on the following topic:

It my understanding that the main disagreement among the early “apostles” was because the gentiles converts to Yeshua where considered by some to be Ger Tzedek and therefore should also obey all the mitzvot, but one Apostle Paul argued that Christianity was not just a division of Judaism and the gentiles should not bring themselves under the law, but were instead saved by “grace.”

(Perhaps part of the reason some thought the gentile coverts to Christianity to be Ger Tzedek may have been in part because of the baptism rituals practiced by Christians, which so closely mirrored those followed by gentiles who converted to Judaism, but that will be a different article).

Shalom

Judaism doesn't define us or the Bible.

Antipas

05-14-2008, 05:49 AM

Antipas

05-14-2008, 05:52 AM

Due to economic hardships I've had to cut internet services at home. I can only respond before work, during breaks, and after work. Forgive me if I'm not responding quickly.

Again thanks...you guys are helping me out.

Antipas

05-14-2008, 06:29 AM

There seems to be some confusion over what I’m encountering with my friend who is a Sabbath keeper. Here’s what he’s telling me…

God ordained the Sabbath long BEFORE the Law,

Genesis 2:2-3 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

He states that the seventh day is blessed and sanctified as a day of rest from the creation. He then goes on to explain that God placed man in the garden and Adam essentially observed the Sabbath rest with the Lord. I stated that I didn’t think we have any evidence of that. He then brought up Cain and Able and asked me why they were performing sacrifices…we have no indication of them ever being taught sacrifice or the practice being an ordained practice either but it was. So he states that from Genesis 2:3 we can conclude that God blessed and sanctified the Sabbath and, like the institution of marriage, that it was observed from creation. He also indicates that it was like tithing, tithing existed long before Abraham….though he’s technically the first in Scripture used to illustrate the principle. His argument is that if God blessed and sanctified the seventh day it was observed…and even if it wasn’t observed it was still blessed and sanctified to be observed. But he points out that in every culture and religion there is a weekly “rest” and that this is a trace of the original commandment given to ALL mankind. This is, “the LORD’s day” or “the LORD’s Sabbath” and is eternally binding on mankind. The only thing required of it was that no industrious work is performed and the day be kept holy (separate for worship).

He then explains that thousands of years later, after mankind had neglected monotheism, the Sabbath, and true faith God revives true faith through Abraham and then God blesses the seed of Abraham. Israel was then taken into captivity and for the most part lost much of their identity in Egypt. God raises up Moses to deliver them. God issues the Ten Commandments, which are eternal MORAL LAWS, that re-establish God’s foundational moral principles of holiness. Due to the Israelite’s Egyptian influence God then has to give additional Laws through Moses to preserve them as a nation and as a people, keeping them separate from the pagan peoples around them. So God delivers the various “Sabbath Laws” through Moses on how he expects the nation to observe his Sabbaths. However, the Sabbath was never meant to be made into “legalism” but God issued decrees to deter industriousness, bringing the people to “rest” and calling them to let go of their materialism and turn toward the Him in worship.

He then states that Jesus died on the cross and fulfilled the law, but God’s eternal moral Law (the Ten Commandments) are binding. Now all men are free from the burdensome laws of the Law of Moses and are just expected to keep the fourth commandment through resting and worship on the seventh day.

He claims that Paul’s reference to esteeming days in Romans 14 is in relation to cultural holidays seeing that Gentiles and Jews were clashing over the Jewish holidays. Colossians 2 is viewed as addressing the “sabbath days”, or better, these feast days (which are regarded as ‘sabbaths’) not the eternal Sabbath.

He believes that the early church’s preaching and teaching in the synagogues on the Sabbath illustrates the early practice among the first Christians. He doesn’t claim that they never met on the “first day” but rather claims that they kept the Sabbath as a primary day of observance. He states that this was customary in Christianity until the Catholic Church shifted the focus away from the seventh day claiming it was a “Jewish Sabbath”. However he’d remind me that the seventh day isn’t a Jewish Sabbath…it’s an eternal Sabbath sanctified by God for all men since the creation. There’s nothing inherently Jewish about the seventh day, unless one appeals to the Law of Moses, who’s laws were only binding on Israel.

mfblume

05-14-2008, 04:26 PM

Praxeas

05-14-2008, 06:16 PM

Circumcision also isn't an issue of the Ten Commandments. It's important to separate the Law of God (the moral law - Ten Commandments) from the Law of Moses (social and ceremonial laws).
First of all I raised the issue of circumcision because you raised the issue of the sabbath proceeding the law. Second of all you have failed to prove that we have to keep the entirety of the 10 commandments.

Third of all I have made many many MANY important arguments against yours....and I am still waiting for a reply

Praxeas

05-14-2008, 06:18 PM

Antipas

I addressed everyone of your arguments point by point and have yet to see a response. I think the evidence is overwhealming that your argument is not a good one and your counter argument about argument from silence is a false argument

Jason B

05-14-2008, 10:56 PM

Circumcision also isn't an issue of the Ten Commandments. It's important to separate the Law of God (the moral law - Ten Commandments) from the Law of Moses (social and ceremonial laws).

the bible doesn't define the law of God as the 10 commanments and the law of moses as the other 603. The law is referred synonymsly (sp?) as the law of God in some passages, the law of moses in others, the law, the ordaninces,etc.

Also you mentioned in another post tithing before the law. That is not a good argument, seeing how the new testament doesn't say a word to gentiles about tithing either. coincidence? i don't think so.

Praxeas

05-14-2008, 11:46 PM

Circumcision also isn't an issue of the Ten Commandments. It's important to separate the Law of God (the moral law - Ten Commandments) from the Law of Moses (social and ceremonial laws).
I have to ask where does the bible say there are two laws? Where does the bible say if there are the separation is the 10 commandments and everything else? You know the rest of the law speaks of the Sabbath...is Homosexuality ok since the 10 commandments did not specifically mention them but the rest of the law did?

Also it sounds like you are saying there was no new commandment...there was just a subtraction from the old (the ceremonial laws from everything else)

And if this is your argument about the 10 commandments do you still agree we should stone the adulterer to death?

Antipas

05-15-2008, 05:42 AM

...talk about arguments from silence! Your friend, though sincere, does this too much.

Gal 4:10-11 flat-out refers to ANY holy days of Judaic elementary teaching, which Paul said was ONLY for the Israelites to lead them to Christ in pre-AD times, and meant bondage again for Gentiles who were formerly under bondage in idolatry. He was not speaking of pagan feast days. Context from Gal 3 proves that.

I think so too. Especially when he argues that the Sabbath was observed prior to the Law. However, this is the same argument proposed by those who advocate tithing based on Abraham's tithe, an apparent one time tithe. But he does make a good case here....the Bible doesn't tell us how or where Cain and Able got the notion of offering sacrifices unto the Lord. Clearly there were teachings and practices they had embraced that the Word doesn't tell us much about. One could argue that Sabbath observance is one of them...especially seeing that God "sanctified" it in the Creation. Think about it...the fact that God sanctified the seventh day as the Sabbath wouldn't be of any significance unless it reflects the origin of most ancient practice. Also the argument that most ancient faith traditions have embraced a seventh day sabbath in their religions since premitive times does tend to point to the argument that these practices originated with a "divine original". For example, consider the "flood story". Nearly every religion has a "Noah"...this indicates that among these varied stories...there was a divine original.

It may also be important to note that my good friend believes that those of Anglo-Saxon decent are decendants of Ephriam, who were assimilated into the peoples shortly after Medo-Persia fell to the Babylonians, and are therefore Israelite. I asked him about those living in Israel today and he explained that they are primarily from the tribe of Judah.

Maybe that's why he feels that the Decalogue is a covenant to be embraced.

Antipas

05-15-2008, 05:49 AM

First of all I raised the issue of circumcision because you raised the issue of the sabbath proceeding the law. Second of all you have failed to prove that we have to keep the entirety of the 10 commandments.

Third of all I have made many many MANY important arguments against yours....and I am still waiting for a reply

This is complex because I do not fully understand the seventh day position. I can't address everyone of your arguments point by point. My primary issue is the Ten Commandments. I firmly believe that they are an eternal moral law and should be distinguished from the Law of Moses that were specifically for Israel.

As for the Ten Commandments under Grace we read from Paul:

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

This would indicate that the law of loving God with all one's heart is the foundation of the elements of the Ten Commandments that describe how God desires to be worshipped. God never "sanctified" the first day, he specifically sanctified the seventh from the beginning. One could ask, do we think God was just speaking for his health or to impress us, or was this foundational to how God (who never changes) desires worship?

Antipas

05-15-2008, 05:50 AM

Antipas

05-15-2008, 05:55 AM

the bible doesn't define the law of God as the 10 commanments and the law of moses as the other 603. The law is referred synonymsly (sp?) as the law of God in some passages, the law of moses in others, the law, the ordaninces,etc.

Also you mentioned in another post tithing before the law. That is not a good argument, seeing how the new testament doesn't say a word to gentiles about tithing either. coincidence? i don't think so.

If I remember correctly the book of Acts indicates that in about 5 cases the gospel was taught on the Sabbath to both Jews in Gentiles...the "first day" reference is only found once in Acts in a meeting right before Paul's departure (notice he wated until the day following the Sabbath to travel) and the next reference is found in the Epistles relating to an offering to be gathered for Paul to take to Jerusalem, again this could indicate that Paul wanted them to gather finances...after the Sabbath.

Tithe's aren't mentioned once. So I feel there's a stronger point to be made fo the Sabbath in the NT than tithing.

Antipas

05-15-2008, 06:03 AM

I have to ask where does the bible say there are two laws? Where does the bible say if there are the separation is the 10 commandments and everything else? You know the rest of the law speaks of the Sabbath...is Homosexuality ok since the 10 commandments did not specifically mention them but the rest of the law did?

Many theologians (especially those into Thenomics) have illustrated who all of the laws found in the Law of Moses can be classified under at least one of the Ten Commandments. Technically any form of perversion or idolatry can be classified as adultery and is therefore prohibitted by the commandment against adultery. So the Law against adultery still stands, it's the implimentation of this law's enforcement found in the Law of Moses that was superceeded by the NT. So it's still a sin to commit adultery or any other perversion...we just don't stone the offender.

Also it sounds like you are saying there was no new commandment...there was just a subtraction from the old (the ceremonial laws from everything else)

The Ten Commandments embody God's desire for human behavior for all eternity. This is why they want them removed from courts and schools. There is a war AGAINST the Ten Commandments...sometimes we join ranks and bash them too. We should instead seek to obey the LORD.

And if this is your argument about the 10 commandments do you still agree we should stone the adulterer to death?

Notice that the Ten Commandments don't list penalties or punishments. Only the Law of Moses addresses penalties and "ceremonial" observances. These are no longer binding...but God's moral law, the Ten Commandments are.

Antipas

05-15-2008, 07:43 AM

Here’s a deep one that could go several directions. Jesus specifically warned the disciples:
“And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.” (Matthew 24:20)
Why did Jesus indicate that Christians should be cautious not to evacuate the holy land on the Sabbath?

Historians tell us that both Jew and Gentile Christians maintained the Sabbath until about AD 120 when open persecution of the Jews reached a peak in ancient times. It was during this time that individual Christian bodies began meeting on Sunday to avoid persecution, because at the time there wasn’t a great distinction in the minds of the Romans between Jews and Christians. It’s a historical fact that Constantine changed the Sabbath observance to Sunday in AD 321. It wasn’t until after AD 460 that one reads of anyone referring to Sunday as “the Lord’s Day”. Consider the following quote:

“Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Catholic Church protests that it transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.” — Rome's Challenge, www.immaculateheart.com/maryonline Dec 2003.

While I think it might be a stretch to say that one’s salvation depends upon observing the Sabbath, I think that history shows that Christians and Jews both met for worship on the Sabbath.

Here’s what I wrote my friend who is a Seventh Day believer…

I don’t think recognizing that Saturday is the Sabbath is something that should be so controversial. Nothing in the commandment commands temple observances, only that it be made holy and that we rest. Our church has a Saturday morning men’s prayer meeting every Saturday. I see this as a way of setting the day apart and making it holy unto the LORD. We normally go out for food and fellowship after the prayer meeting and I get home between 10 and 11 AM. I do nothing relating to “work” on Saturday. The only activity I perform is yard or house work (keeping my garden). I take my family out for lunch and we spend the day together. The day is strictly a day to be a “family” and to lift up the LORD as we “rest” from our week’s labor. Tell me…how do I not observe the Sabbath?

He hasn’t responded yet.

My favorite thing to do is go fishing on Saturday. There’s not rest like it. Being out on the lake, the boat gently rocking on the water, the sun shining on my shoulders, a bobber dancing between the waves, and an uninterrupted time to just talk to the LORD and thank him for all my blessings. Now…that’s a Sabbath. ;)

DividedThigh

05-15-2008, 12:48 PM

i believe in the new testament practice of worship on sunday in honor of the resurrection, i also beleive every day is a day to worship and live for god, none above the other, my humble opinion, dt:blah

Ferd

05-15-2008, 12:59 PM

Colossians 2:15-17

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

how come this thread went past this post. this is the answer. period. end of story.

good job Baron!

DividedThigh

05-15-2008, 01:00 PM

how come this thread went past this post. this is the answer. period. end of story.

good job Baron!

ditto baron, dt

Praxeas

05-15-2008, 02:06 PM

This is complex because I do not fully understand the seventh day position. I can't address everyone of your arguments point by point. My primary issue is the Ten Commandments. I firmly believe that they are an eternal moral law and should be distinguished from the Law of Moses that were specifically for Israel.

As for the Ten Commandments under Grace we read from Paul:

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

This would indicate that the law of loving God with all one's heart is the foundation of the elements of the Ten Commandments that describe how God desires to be worshipped. God never "sanctified" the first day, he specifically sanctified the seventh from the beginning. One could ask, do we think God was just speaking for his health or to impress us, or was this foundational to how God (who never changes) desires worship?
I think you need to address each of my points, point by point because they are a point by point answer to each of the things you have asserted. Your claim is you are in a ditch and it seems that the intent was serious inquiry...so then if that is the case I think you need to weigh each of our points. At the very least say you just don't know the answer or that you see our points.

I say that again because part of your counter argument against Mike was that it was an argument from silence. No it was not and I should you why, but you never showed why it WAS an argument from silence.

This is VERY important because if you are wrong then you never considered Mikes point, yet this is the very reason you started this thread. The point is we are now under a NEW covenant....it is NOT like the old covenant. My question to you is this...if you wanted to know what the parameters were of the Old Covenant where would you go ??? the Old Testament? That would be a good guess....

So then if you were wanting to find out what the parameters are of the New Covenant, where would you go? The New Testament? That to me would be another good guess and if that is the case then pointing out that the NT does NOT teach us to keep a seventh day sabbath.

Praxeas

05-15-2008, 02:14 PM

My primary issue is the Ten Commandments. I firmly believe that they are an eternal moral law and should be distinguished from the Law of Moses that were specifically for Israel.
The "Ten Commandments" were a covenant agreement to Israel. You say "I believe" but that is not evidence of truth

As for the Ten Commandments under Grace we read from Paul:

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

This would indicate that the law of loving God with all one's heart is the foundation of the elements of the Ten Commandments that describe how God desires to be worshipped. God never "sanctified" the first day, he specifically sanctified the seventh from the beginning. One could ask, do we think God was just speaking for his health or to impress us, or was this foundational to how God (who never changes) desires worship?
Here is where you made a huge error. You failed to notice Paul mentioning the Sabbath. See Sabbath keeping is not an issue of morality. It's a rest day. How can I say that? Is not keeping a sabbath equal to adultery or murder? If so then Jesus was immoral.

Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were hungry, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was hungry, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless
Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Was Jesus immoral for breaking the moral law?

Now let me ask you a hypothetical. What if one of His disciples had a wife, but because he was so far away from his wife he decided to visit an old gal pal and have sex with her....he has an excuse right? Is there ever an excuse for immorality? Of course not!

You say the Sabbath was part of the Moral law. Who says anywhere in the bible "The 10 commandments are the moral law"? In fact you will find MUCH teaching on morality OUTSIDE the 10 commandments in other places of the law....the parts you called ceremonial or social AND you also find teaching on the sabbath and it is specifically taught that it was a covenant SIGN to Israel. The 10 Commandments teaches to stone the adulterer to death...do you keep doing that?

See there is only ONE law in the OT and it is given as part of a Covenant to Israel. We have a NEW covenant now and if you want to find out the definition of that covenant you read the NT not the OT.

Praxeas

05-15-2008, 02:22 PM

Praxeus...I think the burden is upon you to demonstrate to me that we DON'T have to obey God's moral law. But before you do, be advised of what Jesus said,

Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
No the burden is all on YOU. YOU made the assertion that the law could be divided into three different laws.

YOU made the assertion that the 10 commandments is THE moral law. You have the burden of proof. What I said was we have a NEW COVENANT...so I need to prove that to you? Do I need to prove to you that the LAW is the MOSAIC LAW given as part of the MOSAIC Covenant God made with Israel? That is basic 101 stuff unless you are a Jew. Come over to the New Covenant and I show you a much better way.

Read the New Covenant and Paul will teach you what is immoral and what is not. He lists all the things that are a sin.....and the works of the flesh. Not once does he mention the Sabbath.

Im sorry but this is basic stuff and I don't see why I should have to revisit something every Christian should know by now that we are NOT under the Old Covenant anymore., The purpose of the Old Covenant is to lead us TO Christ.

Notice the juxtaposition of guardian and law
Gal 3:21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

Notice Paul does not distinguish between different laws or different sections OF the law. He just says Law. There is just ONE law in the OT and if you broke ONE commandment it was like breaking them all

Jas 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.
Jas 2:11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Here is the thing I am trying to get you to do....YOU are the one asserting that the 10 commandments are THE MORAL LAW....in other words everything you wanted to know about what is moral and immoral is right there....and thus that must mean sabbath keeping is a moral issue. You have failed to prove that BUT my point is we are under the NEW COVENANT and not once does the NC mention the Sabbath as a moral code.

Praxeas

05-15-2008, 02:24 PM

Many theologians (especially those into Thenomics) have illustrated who all of the laws found in the Law of Moses can be classified under at least one of the Ten Commandments. Technically any form of perversion or idolatry can be classified as adultery and is therefore prohibitted by the commandment against adultery. So the Law against adultery still stands, it's the implimentation of this law's enforcement found in the Law of Moses that was superceeded by the NT. So it's still a sin to commit adultery or any other perversion...we just don't stone the offender.

Also it sounds like you are saying there was no new commandment...there was just a subtraction from the old (the ceremonial laws from everything else)

The Ten Commandments embody God's desire for human behavior for all eternity. This is why they want them removed from courts and schools. There is a war AGAINST the Ten Commandments...sometimes we join ranks and bash them too. We should instead seek to obey the LORD.

Notice that the Ten Commandments don't list penalties or punishments. Only the Law of Moses addresses penalties and "ceremonial" observances. These are no longer binding...but God's moral law, the Ten Commandments are.
Argument from authority. That is a logical fallacy. First of all you mentioned no name and quoted nobody, but you claim many say this and that. Second just saying "they say this" is not evidence either. You have failed to answer my question or refute my points

stmatthew

05-15-2008, 02:24 PM

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

When you find a New Covenant scripture that commands us to keep one day in seven, then I would be interested in looking at this more.

Praxeas

05-15-2008, 02:27 PM

Praxeas

05-15-2008, 02:30 PM

Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

I have a question to all Sabbath keepers...do you really work 6 days? Most people I know work no more than 5 and have two days off. If we are to be literal then that would be a sin too.

Next notice it does not say "Thou shalt" nor "That shalt not". This is very different from the rest of the commandments. While it says 7th day it does not say which day has to be considered the 7th day. Nor does it say that has to be a day of worship

FlamingZword

09-28-2011, 11:30 PM

There is no New Testament directive anywhere to keep a sabbath day. After the cross we read nothing of Jesus EVER keeping the sabbath.

Paul only preached in synagogues on the sabbath because that is where the Jews, whom he sought to reach, were in one place together at a time to effectively preach to them all, and Paul had access to the synagogues at that time.

They only observed sabbath when they were with other Jews.

After Acts 18 nothing is said about sabbath day.

Every day belongs to the Lord. In fact sabbath helps the error that we serve God one day a week and then do what we want the rest of the week. lol

There is no sabbath day now. It was a law thing.

We do not read everything that Jesus did after the Cross, so an argument from silence is not really an argument at all.
A person could say all kind of weird and crazy things based on what jesus didn't do, but they are all suppossitions.

Paul preached in the Synagogues even when preaching to gentiles it is in the book of Acts. nowhere does it say that he preached to Jews on one day and to the gentiles on another day. every mention of gentils mentions sabbath.

There is nothing in theb books of Acts that says they only kept the Sabbath when they were only with other jews, once again it is a suppossition based on zero evidence.
After Acts 18 there is very little said about other things, including baptism in Jesus name.
Of course every day belongs to God, we have to live every day for God.

In fact (Sunday keeping) helps the error that we serve God one day a week and then do what we want the rest of the week. lol

Nowhere in the scripture does it say that there is no Sabbath now. How strange, I see the Sabbath in the calendar every week.

Contrary to popular belief the Sabbath preceeded the Law by thousands of years, the first Sabbath was kept by God Himself, then the Sabbath was kept by the Israelites way before the Law was given.:stop

mfblume

09-29-2011, 08:57 AM

We do not read everything that Jesus did after the Cross, so an argument from silence is not really an argument at all.
A person could say all kind of weird and crazy things based on what jesus didn't do, but they are all suppossitions.

let's talk about arguments from silence then. Jesus never commanded a sabbath. So why assume we should keep it? The apostles never commanded a sabbath day. We do know Paul said he became all things to all people, even became like one under law in order to win those under law, but he never once taught to keep the sabbath. Matt 28:20 tells us to preach all things Jesus COMMANDED. He never commanded sabbath day in all His ministry. And you cannot say he commanded it as God in the Old Testament, because that would mean He commanded animal sacrifices so we should do that as well.

Paul preached in the Synagogues even when preaching to gentiles it is in the book of Acts. nowhere does it say that he preached to Jews on one day and to the gentiles on another day. every mention of gentils mentions sabbath.

Many gentiles attended synagogues. But again, consider the argument of silence. They never taught anything about keeping a day. Paul even categorized keeping days holy as weakness of faith in Romans 14. He rebuked the Galatians for keeping the elementary schooling of days, months and years that the jews had while under the schoolmaster of Law until Christ came. The Jews were no longer supposed to be under that schoolmaster, so why would gentile Christians keep days, and months and years? He said these gentile christians were had come from one form of bondage (being bound to false gods) to another form of bondage of Law, and he was afraid for them.

There is nothing in theb books of Acts that says they only kept the Sabbath when they were only with other jews, once again it is a suppossition based on zero evidence.

I never limited it to Jews. I simply said they preached on sabbath and went to synagogues to preach to Jews. That was in no way meant to imply they only preached to Jews on the sabbath and gentiles some other time.

After Acts 18 there is very little said about other things, including baptism in Jesus name.
Of course every day belongs to God, we have to live every day for God.

My point is that sabbath was never preached nor taught by Jesus or the apostles, and it is not even mentioned after Acts 18.

In fact (Sunday keeping) helps the error that we serve God one day a week and then do what we want the rest of the week. lol

We do not "keep" sunday as a sabbath. Sunday is not a day of rest and is not the sabbath. It is the first day of the week that the church gathered together to break bread and fellowship.

Nowhere in the scripture does it say that there is no Sabbath now. How strange, I see the Sabbath in the calendar every week.

You are standing on the world's calendar printed by sinners. lol. The sabbath is ETERNAL. our covenant is a SABBATH. hebrews 4 says the sabbath rest day was given in genesis at the foundation of the world when God's works were finished. It also says Canaan was a rest for Israel. But these were shadows of the true rest which is not a 24 hour period. Hebrews 4 quotes the Psalm 95 that shows how a rest remained for people to keep long after Genesis' sabbath day was instituted and long after Israel entered Canaan under Joshua. The offer to REST TODAY is renewed and up to date even today under Christ. TODAY there REMAINS a rest. THAT is the rest we should be concerned with.

Contrary to popular belief the Sabbath preceeded the Law by thousands of years, the first Sabbath was kept by God Himself, then the Sabbath was kept by the Israelites way before the Law was given.:stop
The sabbath preceded law, but was still a memorial of OLD creation. And it was STILL a natural example of the truer and spiritual sabbath, which is not a 24 hour period. There is a principle found in 1 Cor 15 -- first that which is natural and then afterwards that which is spiritual. Sabbath day is a natural rest, and recommended purely for health reasons. But the TRUE SABBATH is JESUS HIMSELF, to whom we come if we labour and are heavy laden in a spiritual manner. THE SPIRITUAL sabbath is the only one we should be concerned with in our relationship with God. Sabbath day promotion to day is simply a ruse to pull us back under pre-cross times.

FlamingZword

09-29-2011, 10:10 PM

OK I shall try my best to answer every point from scripture and logic.

Jesus never commanded a sabbath. Because there was no need to command something that was well known and alreadyt practiced by all even Jesus. it would be redundant of Jesus to mention something that everyone was already keeping.

So why assume we should keep it? Becasue it was never done away it, there is not one single scripture that says explicitly "The Sabbath is abolished"

Paul taught the Sabbath by example, he kept it.

Jesus Commanded the Sabbath by his example of keeping it.

Paul criticized the Galatians for going back to the Law, with its own sabbaths not for keeping the regular Sabbath. As we all well know the Sabbath was established before the Law. so we can not say the Sabbath is Law for it precceded the Law.

Since the Sabbath is a commandment that is spiritual why don't we do the same with the other 9 commandments. let us spiritualize adultery and say that since it is law and spiritual then we can now commit adultery becasue we are not under law.

we can not selectely choose which of the 10 commandments to follow, we have to follow all ten of Ten Commandemnts.
The idea that the Sabbath is a ruse to bring people back to the Law is plain and silly since the Law is done away with.
I have written many articles on the Sabbath, exploring the Sabbath from many angles. perhaps later on I can copy and paste some of my articles. for now peace brother, and keep up the good fight.

mfblume

09-29-2011, 11:13 PM

UnTraditional

09-30-2011, 03:51 AM

Peace to you as well. But let me add this. Paul taught the Galatians against keeping days -- any days -- months and years. He meant anything from law. Law included sabbaths, whether sabbaths came beforehand or not. We know they came beforehand. No matter, though. Aldo, Jesus never meant us to follow anyone by example as though that meant we do not have to have his words about it. It is to important an issue for us to not require plain teachin on it. As I said, all sabbaths, not just law's sabbaths, were shadows. Think of it. sabbath was about a physical day and physical 24 hours. We are beyond that now. We keep sabbath still, but the true one which the day merely foreshadowed. We have the spiritual one which is Jesus.

Amen! We need not keep feast days or sabbaths, because in Christ all is fulfilled. To keep these things as many sabbath keepers preach is a method of salvation, but in Christ we keep it to Christ for His glory everyday, resting in His finished work. he is our Pentecost. He is our Booths. He is every feast. Wow! What a revelation as I wrote this. Christ is every feast fulfilled! Hallelujah!

TGBTG

09-30-2011, 06:32 AM

Col 2
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

For those who do keep the sabbath, if I may ask, how do you keep it?

Aquila

09-30-2011, 07:13 AM

We also have to remember that the sabbath is a gift to man. Under the Law it was a time when men entered the presence of God to worship. Today, we can enter that rest at any time through the Holy Ghost. The issue with the sabbath isn't so much the day that it falls on... but it's spiritual reality in our lives. Do we personally take TIME away from our cares and work to devote entirely to God? And it's not a burdensome command by which we might be condemned in the New Covenant. It's a blessing to enter in and rest in Christ, through the Spirit, at any given time.

Frankly, if one only enters the sabbath one day a week (be it Saturday or Sunday)... they are falling terribly short of the blessings Christ would bestow upon them daily.

pelathais

09-30-2011, 09:01 AM

We do not read everything that Jesus did after the Cross, so an argument from silence is not really an argument at all.
A person could say all kind of weird and crazy things based on what jesus didn't do, but they are all suppossitions.

Paul preached in the Synagogues even when preaching to gentiles it is in the book of Acts. nowhere does it say that he preached to Jews on one day and to the gentiles on another day. every mention of gentils mentions sabbath.

There is nothing in theb books of Acts that says they only kept the Sabbath when they were only with other jews, once again it is a suppossition based on zero evidence.
After Acts 18 there is very little said about other things, including baptism in Jesus name.
Of course every day belongs to God, we have to live every day for God.

In fact (Sunday keeping) helps the error that we serve God one day a week and then do what we want the rest of the week. lol

Nowhere in the scripture does it say that there is no Sabbath now. How strange, I see the Sabbath in the calendar every week.

Contrary to popular belief the Sabbath preceeded the Law by thousands of years, the first Sabbath was kept by God Himself, then the Sabbath was kept by the Israelites way before the Law was given.:stop

I'm tending to go with Mike on this one.

Attending church services "the first day of the week" isn't the same thing as that old Puritan "Sunday Sabbath" whereby the restrictions of the OT weekly Sabbath was rolled over to Sunday.

Folks just go to church on Sunday, and most "violate" the "Sabbath" to get there.

See also, "the first day of the week..." Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2.

The NT church met on the first day of the week (Sunday) for their long winded sermons, to eat out and to take up an offering. What else does anyone do on a Sunday today but to follow this pattern. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gif