Gay Marriage Ban Overturned

[Hoovie]

California's top court overturns gay marriage ban

"SAN FRANCISCO - In a monumental victory for the gay rights movement, the California Supreme Court overturned a voter-approved ban on gay marriage Thursday in a ruling that would allow same-sex couples in the nation's biggest state to tie the knot. "

" Jeanie Rizzo, one of the plaintiffs, called Pali Cooper, her partner of 19 years, and asked, "Pali, will you marry me?" "


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080515/ap_on_re_us/gay_marriage

[Praxeas]

California's top court overturns gay marriage ban

"SAN FRANCISCO - In a monumental victory for the gay rights movement, the California Supreme Court overturned a voter-approved ban on gay marriage Thursday in a ruling that would allow same-sex couples in the nation's biggest state to tie the knot. "

" Jeanie Rizzo, one of the plaintiffs, called Pali Cooper, her partner of 19 years, and asked, "Pali, will you marry me?" "


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080515/ap_on_re_us/gay_marriage
We need to hang these judges and put new ones in. I am so tired of them overturning what we voted for democratically

[Jack Shephard]

California's top court overturns gay marriage ban

"SAN FRANCISCO - In a monumental victory for the gay rights movement, the California Supreme Court overturned a voter-approved ban on gay marriage Thursday in a ruling that would allow same-sex couples in the nation's biggest state to tie the knot. "

" Jeanie Rizzo, one of the plaintiffs, called Pali Cooper, her partner of 19 years, and asked, "Pali, will you marry me?" "


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080515/ap_on_re_us/gay_marriage


Good for them...lol

[dizzyde]

Just makes me proud to be a Californian... :vomit :eeeew

[Baron1710]

This is an interesting case because California already gave them all the rights of a marriage under same-sex unions. It makes me wonder if they are not trying to use the word "marriage" so that they can force other states, that would never allow same-sex marriage or civil unions, to accept them under the full faith and credit clause.

[mfblume]

Is any democracy left around here?

[DividedThigh]

:blah:blah makes me evermore happy i dont live in cali, course wisconsin isnt much better, except for deer huntin, lol,dt:boxing

[Baron1710]

I love this line from the dissent...

"I cannot join this exercise in legal jujitsu, by which the Legislature’s own
weight is used against it to create a constitutional right from whole cloth, defeat
the People’s will, and invalidate a statute otherwise immune from legislative
interference."

[DividedThigh]

I love this line from the dissent...

"I cannot join this exercise in legal jujitsu, by which the Legislature’s own
weight is used against it to create a constitutional right from whole cloth, defeat
the People’s will, and invalidate a statute otherwise immune from legislative
interference."

i like that, too, someone has a sense of humor, dt:boxing

[Praxeas]

Good for them...lol
you support gay marriage?

[Praxeas]

This is an interesting case because California already gave them all the rights of a marriage under same-sex unions. It makes me wonder if they are not trying to use the word "marriage" so that they can force other states, that would never allow same-sex marriage or civil unions, to accept them under the full faith and credit clause.
In that case it is clearly not about legalities but forcing their agenda on us.

[dizzyde]

This is an interesting case because California already gave them all the rights of a marriage under same-sex unions. It makes me wonder if they are not trying to use the word "marriage" so that they can force other states, that would never allow same-sex marriage or civil unions, to accept them under the full faith and credit clause.

In that case it is clearly not about legalities but forcing their agenda on us.

That is it exactly.

[Baron1710]

Another good qoute from the dissent...

But a bare majority of this court, not satisfied with the pace of democratic
change, now abruptly forestalls that process and substitutes, by judicial fiat, its
own social policy views for those expressed by the People themselves.

[My Own Eyes]

you support gay marriage?

I agree with JTulluck's comment, so I will answer this, even though it was not addressed to me.

I don't as much support gay marriage, as I don't oppose it.

The word "support" implies performing some sort of action in order to facilitate its inception.

I do disagree with using the term "marriage", as I think that marriage implies 1 man and 1 woman. However, I have no problem with them having a legally recognized union that gives them the same legal rights as heterosexual couples.

I also don't view homosexuality as the big bad, as is the common view around here.

The only problem I have with this ruling is that it definately was not about a government of the people, for the people and by the people.

[dizzyde]

Another good qoute from the dissent...

But a bare majority of this court, not satisfied with the pace of democratic
change, now abruptly forestalls that process and substitutes, by judicial fiat, its
own social policy views for those expressed by the People themselves.

Are you serious??? That is not really in it?

[Ferd]

Is any democracy left around here?

You now live in America where liberals have been working for 40 years to control the courts. they know that by controling the courts, they can over rule the democratic majority.

welcome to the new tyrany.

[Baron1710]

Are you serious??? That is not really in it?

Dissent of Justice Baxter, p. 6.

[Ferd]

Now you all know why we call Cali the land of fruits and nuts!

[ChristopherHall]

The World will be the World. My concern is with the Church being the Church?

[Praxeas]

I agree with JTulluck's comment, so I will answer this, even though it was not addressed to me.

I don't as much support gay marriage, as I don't oppose it.

The word "support" implies performing some sort of action in order to facilitate its inception.

I do disagree with using the term "marriage", as I think that marriage implies 1 man and 1 woman. However, I have no problem with them having a legally recognized union that gives them the same legal rights as heterosexual couples.

I also don't view homosexuality as the big bad, as is the common view around here.

The only problem I have with this ruling is that it definately was not about a government of the people, for the people and by the people.
You on the one hand say you don't agree with gay marriage...then on the other say you disagree with using the term marriage. This is not about gay civil unions. It really IS about GAY marriages and the state recognizing LEGALLY that they are married like a man and a woman are.. It is not about rights. It is about redefining the word Marriage

[dizzyde]

Dissent of Justice Baxter, p. 6.

Unbelievable!

[ChristopherHall]

Here's prayer I find valuable in these troubled times...

The Serenity Prayer

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

--Reinhold Niebuhr

[DanielR]

Now you all know why we call Cali the land of fruits and nuts!

Hey! Don't forget about the flakes.

[ChristopherHall]

I get the feeling that we waste a lot of time, money, and energy trying to control what others do...when ultimately we never will be able to control what others do. We need to realize that the church is a shelter in the storm, a holy haven of peace, not a political action committee.

The crazier this world gets...the important the church's role becomes. But if we become politicized...we'll miss it.

[Baron1710]

Here's prayer I find valuable in these troubled times...

The Serenity Prayer

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

--Reinhold Niebuhr

My name is Andrew and I am...oh never mind.

Sometimes we have to stand up against things that we "cannot change". Ever hear of a man named Jeremiah?

[ChristopherHall]

Hey! Don't forget about the flakes.

Ah...the land of the breakfast cereal...fruits, nuts. AND flakes. lol

[ChristopherHall]

My name is Andrew and I am...oh never mind.

Sometimes we have to stand up against things that we "cannot change". Ever hear of a man named Jeremiah?

Jeremiah advocated that Judah surrender to the Babylonians...it was the false prophets that argued that they should fight and that the LORD was on their side. Jeremiah was then put in a pit for is lack of...patriotism.

How do you propose we control them there homosexils?

Let go...and let God. God is in control.

[James Griffin]

Is any democracy left around here?

Yes there is, to borrow a phrase from Paul Harvey: the rest of the story-


The court ruled on the law as written. There is a movement to settle the issue by way of amendment to the California state constitution in November.

If this is done it would trump this court ruling.

Of course the few conservatives there are in California are apparently more concerned with which technologies are too evil to be used for evangelism and how to separate themselves from "the world" than to actually get involved in anything quite that temporal.

:boxing

[ChristopherHall]

In the world...not of it.

[Baron1710]

Jeremiah advocated that Judah surrender to the Babylonians...it was the false prophets that argued that they should fight and that the LORD was on their side. Jeremiah was then put in a pit for is lack of...patriotism.

Let go...and let God.

Follow me...Jeremiah stood against the government and popular viewpoint. The point was he wasnt praying your AA prayer. Did I advocate going to war with gays?

[DanielR]

I get the feeling that we waste a lot of time, money, and energy trying to control what others do...when ultimately we never will be able to control what others do. We need to realize that the church is a shelter in the storm, a holy haven of peace, not a political action committee.

The crazier this world gets...the important the church's role becomes. But if we become politicized...we'll miss it.

Now that Chris is one of your few posts that I can actually agree with, your not as hopeless as I had thought :tic :happydance

[Baron1710]

Yes there is, to borrow a phrase from Paul Harvey: the rest of the story-


The court ruled on the law as written. There is a movement to settle the issue by way of amendment to the California state constitution in November.

If this is done it would trump this court ruling.

Of course the few conservatives there are in California are apparently more concerned with which technologies are too evil to be used for evangelism and how to separate themselves from "the world" than to actually get involved in anything quite that temporal.

:boxing

True on all accounts.

[ChristopherHall]

Follow me...Jeremiah stood against the government and popular viewpoint. The point was he wasnt praying your AA prayer. Did I advocate going to war with gays?

The popular viewpoint is conservative not liberal. That's why it's taking the court's to do this.

This is one of those fights we're not going to win. We need to just trust God and make the church a haven or shelter in the storm of this crazy world. We can be the quiet humble sojourners God called us to be. Frankly, I long for the day when the church isn't reduced to a political action committee. When we preach the truth in our churches that will define us...not our politics. And if they come after us for what we preach...then we will be the martyrs and the Constitution will be on our side.

I don't find value in political crusades to control others.

[dizzyde]

Yes there is, to borrow a phrase from Paul Harvey: the rest of the story-


The court ruled on the law as written. There is a movement to settle the issue by way of amendment to the California state constitution in November.

If this is done it would trump this court ruling.

Of course the few conservatives there are in California are apparently more concerned with which technologies are too evil to be used for evangelism and how to separate themselves from "the world" than to actually get involved in anything quite that temporal.

:boxing


:shocked: :jaw :girlfriend


Actually....

:scoregood :highfive

[Baron1710]

The popular viewpoint is conservative not liberal. That's why it's taking the court's to do this.
This is one of those fights we're not going to win. We need to just trust God and make the church a haven or shelter in the storm of this crazy world. We can be the quiet humble sojourners God called us to be. Frankly, I long for the day when the church isn't reduced to a political action committee. When we preach the truth in our churches that will define us...not our politics. And if they come after us for what we preach...then we will be the martyrs and the Constitution will be on our side.

I don't find value in political crusades to control others.

Did you listen to yourself? What Constitutional right does the court have to overthrow the people? It doesn't unless you buy into the whacky jurisprudence where the court conferred that authority upon themselves.

[Sam]

Ah...the land of the breakfast cereal...fruits, nuts. AND flakes. lol

Also known as granola land
the land of fruits, nuts, and flakes.

[Sam]

Did you listen to yourself? What Constitutional right does the court have to overthrow the people? It doesn't unless you buy into the whacky jurisprudence where the court conferred that authority upon themselves.

In other words, "The constitution does not say what it says. It says what the Supreme Court says it says."

[Rhoni]

I'm not sure if you realize the ramifications of this lifting of the ban. It isn't just about same sex marriages, but it opens the door to any type of marriage which covers same sex, beastiality, incest, polygamy, ect. If it is a constitutional right to form any type of marriage you see fit or family structure...then we are talking about more than one form of sexual sins but covering them all and making them legal.

Come quickly Lord Jesus.

[Praxeas]

The popular viewpoint is conservative not liberal. That's why it's taking the court's to do this.

This is one of those fights we're not going to win. We need to just trust God and make the church a haven or shelter in the storm of this crazy world. We can be the quiet humble sojourners God called us to be. Frankly, I long for the day when the church isn't reduced to a political action committee. When we preach the truth in our churches that will define us...not our politics. And if they come after us for what we preach...then we will be the martyrs and the Constitution will be on our side.

I don't find value in political crusades to control others.
the more people have such a defeatest attitude the more we WILL lose.

A man on the radio was asked his feelings. He said what two people do in their bedroom is none of business so I don't care. Apathy...this was not about what they do sexually in the bedroom

[Cindy]

In other words, "The constitution does not say what it says. It says what the Supreme Court says it says."

Yep.

[Praxeas]

The popular viewpoint is conservative not liberal. That's why it's taking the court's to do this.

This is one of those fights we're not going to win. We need to just trust God and make the church a haven or shelter in the storm of this crazy world. We can be the quiet humble sojourners God called us to be. Frankly, I long for the day when the church isn't reduced to a political action committee. When we preach the truth in our churches that will define us...not our politics. And if they come after us for what we preach...then we will be the martyrs and the Constitution will be on our side.

I don't find value in political crusades to control others.
A majority voted a ban on Marriage in California....do you really think the majority of Ca voters are conservative?

BTW the problem is not preaching the truth IN our churches....it's getting THEM to hear it...other wise we are just preaching to the chior

BTW this issue is not about preaching against homosexuality or legislating laws against homosexuality. The issue is a redefinition of a cultural norm

[Praxeas]

Did you listen to yourself? What Constitutional right does the court have to overthrow the people? It doesn't unless you buy into the whacky jurisprudence where the court conferred that authority upon themselves.
Exactly.

One more question. Does anyone believe God still brings judgement on nations due to their immorality?

[Praxeas]

I'm not sure if you realize the ramifications of this lifting of the ban. It isn't just about same sex marriages, but it opens the door to any type of marriage which covers same sex, beastiality, incest, polygamy, ect. If it is a constitutional right to form any type of marriage you see fit or family structure...then we are talking about more than one form of sexual sins but covering them all and making them legal.

Come quickly Lord Jesus.
On top of that we have gay friendly legislation that affect our kids in schools and on TOP of that they want to ELIMINATE any gender specific references from all text books like father and mother. They are attempting to remove ANY thing that speaks of a heterosexual relationship being what we normally thing of as a couple or a family. See this is not about a war with them. It's about their war with you and your family.

[Encryptus]

On top of that in many cases in California gays are not requesting equal rights, they are requesting preferential treatment !

For example it's not enough in schools to stay neutral, you are breaking the law if you do not portray in a POSITIVE light.

This is creating a special privileged class.

The voters did vote the laws in, but the were deceived in what they actually stood for, hence the current backlash by the public.

[Praxeas]

On top of that in many cases in California gays are not requesting equal rights, they are requesting preferential treatment !

For example it's not enough in schools to stay neutral, you are breaking the law if you do not portray in a POSITIVE light.

This is creating a special privileged class.

The voters did vote the laws in, but the were deceived in what they actually stood for, hence the current backlash by the public.
Exactly

[ChristopherHall]

Did you listen to yourself? What Constitutional right does the court have to overthrow the people? It doesn't unless you buy into the whacky jurisprudence where the court conferred that authority upon themselves.

That’s the court’s job. No system is perfect. We’re an imperfect people in an imperfect world. You see “liberty” is too precious to rely on “democracy” to ensure freedom. We have Constitutional rights defined by both the states and the federal government. When “the people” (through Democracy) vote for legislation it often falls on the courts to see if that legislation violates constitutional law. For example, let’s say 99% of Americans voted to ban blacks and whites from getting married. Now, just because “the people” want to ban interracial marriages, does that make it just constitutionally? The courts have to decide. So frankly, you’re right. In a court of law the will of “the people” isn’t the issue…the issue is “the law”. And we should praise God for that. The court found that California’s constitution doesn’t permit the will of the people to pass legislation to control the private living choices, relationships, or social contracts of other people unless it would endanger life, liberty, or property. These are the three essentials to law.

So in the end, yes, the courts are granted this right by their respective constitutions.

[ChristopherHall]

In other words, "The constitution does not say what it says. It says what the Supreme Court says it says."

The constitutions are not divine writ and they need to be interpreted, because what a statement means to some, it may mean something entirely different to another. The courts are charged with “interpreting” their respective constitutions.

Here’s the deal…courts in the US will typically rule in favor of individual liberty unless they perceive that said liberty would endanger life, liberty, or property. The only exception I can see as I think about it right now is abortion. Abortion endangers both the life of the mother and terminates the life of the unborn. However the courts have ruled that a mother has legal authority over the life of her unborn child seeing that it dwells within her person. That’s why as abortion because “safer” (frankly I disagree) the courts ruled in favor of abortion rights. Of course the “choice” position essentially takes the government out of the equation and leaves individual women free to choose. Therefore the sin of abortion isn’t a “national sin” it’s a “personal sin”. To demonstrate this let’s assume abortion remains legal…everyone could still choose not to abort. The onus is on the individual not the nation. Of course this will lead me to another issue that gets my goat if I’m not careful.

[ChristopherHall]

I'm not sure if you realize the ramifications of this lifting of the ban. It isn't just about same sex marriages, but it opens the door to any type of marriage which covers same sex, beastiality, incest, polygamy, ect. If it is a constitutional right to form any type of marriage you see fit or family structure...then we are talking about more than one form of sexual sins but covering them all and making them legal.

Come quickly Lord Jesus.

Bestiality is currently defined as a psychosis. Won’t happen. Incest is seen as public health hazard. Won’t happen. Polygamy…now that one might happen. But I get your point.

Ultimately we have to learn to be defined by Jesus Christ and not this earthly nation…because this world will NEVER measure up nor will it ever please God…it’s impossible for the carnal man to please God or live by God’s Law. We’re strangers and pilgrims down here. I know we want to be popular governors of the people because we believe we can control their lives for the better…but that’ isn’t going to happen.

[ChristopherHall]

the more people have such a defeatest attitude the more we WILL lose.

A man on the radio was asked his feelings. He said what two people do in their bedroom is none of business so I don't care. Apathy...this was not about what they do sexually in the bedroom.

The way I see it is that they’re all ready shacking up and they’re going nowhere. In my mind NOBODY should be having sex unless they are legally committed to one another. That means that a man or woman who wants to have intercourse should be married…even if they were each previously divorced for issues other than adultery. Of course as a Christian I’d never sanction such a marriage nor do I think the church should perform them. But if they want to live together…they should go down and have a civil marriage.

Now let’s think about gay people. They’re going to do it. They’re going to live together. While we don’t agree with the union, we also don’t agree with divorced people remarrying unless the divorce was on the grounds of adultery. It could it argued that we’re being selective in our judgment against gays because we aren’t crying out loudly at all about this other illicit marriages among straight divorcees…and they take place and will take place far more than gay marriages.

In all honesty…we do we choose to be silent regarding one illicit marriage and rush to judgment against another? Are we being partial in our judgment?

[ChristopherHall]

A majority voted a ban on Marriage in California....do you really think the majority of Ca voters are conservative?

All I know is that the majority voted to ban gay marriage for whatever reason.

BTW the problem is not preaching the truth IN our churches....it's getting THEM to hear it...other wise we are just preaching to the choir

No man comes unto the Father unless the Spirit draws him. We can’t MAKE people hear us if they don’t want to.

BTW this issue is not about preaching against homosexuality or legislating laws against homosexuality. The issue is a redefinition of a cultural norm

True. It does define a cultural norm of our society. However, it will NEVER redefine the norms and sacraments of the church. For the vast majority of human history “culture” hasn’t been in line with the church. And the church has flourished in other cultures that allowed this stuff…for example Rome allowed this too. I think God wants us out of politics and in the streets, hospitals, pregnancy centers, homeless shelters, food pantries, etc. We are CONSUMED with politics.

[ChristopherHall]

Exactly.

One more question. Does anyone believe God still brings judgement on nations due to their immorality?

I believe God does. But I believe that God brings judgment on “national sins”. For example let’s compare the US and China. In the US abortion is an issue of individual choice. That means God’s judgment will be on the individual. But in China a family can face a $5,000 fine for every child they have after their first (some provinces mandate abortion). As a nation they strongly push abortion (regardless of individual choice) and coupled with the fine it makes it a national policy of forced abortion. Now that is a “national sin”. Interestingly after this earthquake there is outcry to overturn the one child laws in China because so many parents lost their only children. Guys, that’s one reason why the media focused on that school where kids were buried in rubble.

Now, I’m going to illustrate something…America is China’s biggest trade partner. We’re making them a wealthy and powerful nation with our business. Wal-Mart is America’s largest retail and the largest importer of Chinese goods. By shaking hands with China and funding their national advancement while they force abortion it makes us morally implicit in this sin. One day while walking in Wal-Mart I felt the LORD’s deep displeasure that I was buying goods from a place that is the largest importer from a nation that mandates child sacrifice. The goods in my cart were covered with the blood of over 400 million unborn children. It’s like if one were buying German during WWII when they were putting Jews in the ovens and gas chambers. Would you buy German during WWII? No, we wouldn’t. But we buy from China while they’ve sacrificed over 400 million through their forced abortion policy. All to save $$$$.

We give them favored nation status and allow unfettered trade with them as national policy….now that is a national sin that will bring judgment. Even if we just set a steep tariff against their goods for human rights violations it would relieve the charge. But we’re in bed with them while they MURDER millions of children as national policy.

That sickens me more than our nation being pro-choice.

Of course most think with their $$$$ so they will disagree. Certainly it must be good…it saved them $$$$. I care to humbly disagree. Would you “buy German” while they were forcing Jews into ovens or gas chambers? It’s the same thing.

So I do my dead level best to only buy American, knowing that God will judge our nation over this eventually. I bought a Jeep because it was 81% made in the US while my other choices were not.

Buy American.

[ChristopherHall]

On top of that we have gay friendly legislation that affect our kids in schools and on TOP of that they want to ELIMINATE any gender specific references from all text books like father and mother. They are attempting to remove ANY thing that speaks of a heterosexual relationship being what we normally thing of as a couple or a family. See this is not about a war with them. It's about their war with you and your family.

That’s why I believe a Christian parent is failing in their Christian duty if they send their kids to public schools. Send them to a private school or home school. The public schools are already unfit for Christian children and are only going to get worse. Our children already belong to schools...they're called CHURCHES. If we do our Christian duty problem solved.

[Baron1710]

All I know is that the majority voted to ban gay marriage for whatever reason.

And yet they could still get all the benefits of a marriage under California's DPA. It was about challenging the cultural norm not about rights.

[ChristopherHall]

And yet they could still get all the benefits of a marriage under California's DPA. It was about challenging the cultural norm not about rights.

Without politicizing or moral grandstanding. What's the gay community's perspective?

I've known quite a few gays, my wife and I have been involved in the local theatre community. Two couples we got to know rather well were devout Episcopals and attended a "gay friendly" Episcopal church. Their priest was a single woman who was "gay affirming" who performed a “ceremony” for them because they wanted to be “right in the eyes of God”. (Now if you’re like me you just spewed your coffee all over your monitor or lost your breakfast. LOL) We ran into them at Buckhorn Tavern (a local restaurant not a bar) once and had a good talk. The subject of gay marriage was brought up and they defended it on the grounds of “religious freedom” seeing that their church is “gay friendly”. For them it was an issue of “religious liberty”, they felt that their church should have the right to marry them and they should have the right to marry.

For another gay person I talked to the issue was that they felt “separate but equal”. They equated it to the day when we hand water fountains for blacks and water fountains for whites. Both had a water fountain…but one was separate from the other and therefore it was viewed as discriminatory.

While I don’t believe in gay marriage, I can see that this is about more than just challenging norms or them plotting to destroy marriage. They honestly see this as an issue of personal liberties. Most don’t wish us any harm but can see the few extremists in their ranks who might want to curtail preaching against homosexuality, though the Constitution obviously will protect that right. But I say, “Bring it on!” The Church needs a little REAL persecution. We always grow and get real with God in times of oppression or persecution. So I’m not afraid.

We're not going to win this battle the way our constitutions are written. If you took all the judges that have ruled in favor of this stuff and wrote them down on a list and listed who were appointed by Republicans and who appeared to have a "conservative" record...you'll realize that even our "conservative judges" overwelmingly vote in favor of their personal liberties in this area.

We need to focus on being the Church...not politics.

[dizzyde]

That’s why I believe a Christian parent is failing in their Christian duty if they send their kids to public schools. Send them to a private school or home school. The public schools are already unfit for Christian children and are only going to get worse. Our children already belong to schools...they're called CHURCHES. If we do our Christian duty problem solved.

Yes, I completely failed as a Christian parent by sending my child off to public school to get a decent education... :blah :blah

I prepared her and enabled her to live in the real world, which she would be living and working in for the rest of her life. I feel like such a failure... :blah :blah

If a child is getting the direction and spiritual leadership that they need in the home and at church, and if a parent stays actively involved in their education and schools, then your declarations of your "beliefs" is seriously off base.

[Rico]

Yes, I completely failed as a Christian parent by sending my child off to public school to get a decent education... :blah :blah

I prepared her and enabled her to live in the real world, which she would be living and working in for the rest of her life. I feel like such a failure... :blah :blah

If a child is getting the direction and spiritual leadership that they need in the home and at church, and if a parent stays actively involved in their education and schools, then your declarations of your "beliefs" is seriously off base.


I couldn't agree with you more if I tried. I have seen so many backwards, unprepared for life's realities home schooled children it scares me.

[dizzyde]

I couldn't agree with you more if I tried. I have seen so many backwards, unprepared for life's realities home schooled children it scares me.

Seriously! And I am not against home schooling on principal, but I have seen some really disastrous results as well.

I think what ever any parents decide to do regarding their childrens education, they better make sure that they are also preparing them to deal with the pressure in the "real" world, because unless they are planning on living communally, at some point these kids are going to have to deal with it.

And I am not talking about throwing them to the wolves, either. Wisdom must be used daily.

[Rico]

Seriously! And I am not against home schooling on principal, but I have seen some really disastrous results as well.

I think what ever any parents decide to do regarding their childrens education, they better make sure that they are also preparing them to deal with the pressure in the "real" world, because unless they are planning on living communally, at some point these kids are going to have to deal with it.

And I am not talking about throwing them to the wolves, either. Wisdom must be used daily.

Anyone who decides to homeschool their children needs to really look into what it takes to be successful at it. In my opinion, too many people choose to homeschool when they have no business taking on such a difficult task. People think they can buy a program and that's all it will take, but there's a lot more involved than running a packaged program.

[Baron1710]

Anyone who decides to homeschool their children needs to really look into what it takes to be successful at it. In my opinion, too many people choose to homeschool when they have no business taking on such a difficult task. People think they can buy a program and that's all it will take, but there's a lot more involved than running a packaged program.

We have done a number of different things with our kids, including public school, home school, and private school. We can't send them to public school where we live if we want them to get an education, but if we were still in Virginia Beach, that's exactly where they would be, so for now it is private school.

[Rico]

We have done a number of different things with our kids, including public school, home school, and private school. We can't send them to public school where we live if we want them to get an education, but if we were still in Virginia Beach, that's exactly where they would be, so for now it is private school.


The Lord has blessed us with a good school system, so we don't have to worry about homeschooling or private school. There is no way we could do either, so things have worked out well for us. My children love the schools they go to. They are involved in lots of activities, like football (my son). In fact, my oldest daughter was recently chosen as student of the month. It took me almost two years to realize that the reason we are here in this one horse county is because of our children. The Lord wanted to bless them with good schools to go to.

[Baron1710]

The Lord has blessed us with a good school system, so we don't have to worry about homeschooling or private school. There is no way we could do either, so things have worked out well for us. My children love the schools they go to. They are involved in lots of activities, like football (my son). In fact, my oldest daughter was recently chosen as student of the month. It took me almost two years to realize that the reason we are here in this one horse county is because of our children. The Lord wanted to bless them with good schools to go to.

Your not gonna be "that guy" are you? You know the one with the bumper sticker that says "my kid was student of the month at..."

HAHA

[dizzyde]

We have done a number of different things with our kids, including public school, home school, and private school. We can't send them to public school where we live if we want them to get an education, but if we were still in Virginia Beach, that's exactly where they would be, so for now it is private school.

And that is where using wisdom comes in. You have to educate yourselves about the school or schools and be involved in the process. The elementary schools that my daughter went to in the Bay area were much more humanistic and progressive (in the bad way), and so I made it a point to be Room Mother and volunteered several times a week in the classroom, so I was well aware of what was going on and what was being taught. And honestly, I never really had any problems or issues.

In the high school she attended in Bakersfield, I think half the staff at her school were church going people and several people on the staff go to our church, there were a few times that I was actually shocked at how far that the school went towards the side of Christianity. I chaperoned several times when her Chamber Choir went down to Disneyland to sing, and on the school bus on the way down to LA, these kids were singing worship songs. It was pretty amazing.

[Encryptus]

That’s why I believe a Christian parent is failing in their Christian duty if they send their kids to public schools. Send them to a private school or home school. The public schools are already unfit for Christian children and are only going to get worse. Our children already belong to schools...they're called CHURCHES. If we do our Christian duty problem solved.


Sorry brother just lost a lot of credibility with that one.

[Rico]

Your not gonna be "that guy" are you? You know the one with the bumper sticker that says "my kid was student of the month at..."

HAHA

Hehehe. No. No bumper stickers for me. My oldest daughter also won a basketball contest (she got a small trophy), so I made sure to tell her to rub her brother's nose in it! :D He's over 6' tall, loves to play basketball and has NEVER won any kind of award for it! HEHEHEHEHE!

[Baron1710]

And that is where using wisdom comes in. You have to educate yourselves about the school or schools and be involved in the process. The elementary schools that my daughter went to in the Bay area were much more humanistic and progressive (in the bad way), and so I made it a point to be Room Mother and volunteered several times a week in the classroom, so I was well aware of what was going on and what was being taught. And honestly, I never really had any problems or issues.

In the high school she attended in Bakersfield, I think half the staff at her school were church going people and several people on the staff go to our church, there were a few times that I was actually shocked at how far that the school went towards the side of Christianity. I chaperoned several times when her Chamber Choir went down to Disneyland to sing, and on the school bus on the way down to LA, these kids were singing worship songs. It was pretty amazing.

I know some folks will not like this but Cody's football coach in Virginia Beach prayed with them before every game (I know it is unconstitutional so relax Chris) and also asked the blessing over the food at the banquet for the football players. The thing is in a place like VB, no one was offended by it, it was expected.

[dizzyde]

I know some folks will not like this but Cody's football coach in Virginia Beach prayed with them before every game (I know it is unconstitutional so relax Chris) and also asked the blessing over the food at the banquet for the football players. The thing is in a place like VB, no one was offended by it, it was expected.

That is one of the (few) nicer things about living in more rural or "Bible belt" like areas. Then there is that whole other side... :tissue

[Baron1710]

That is one of the (few) nicer things about living in more rural or "Bible belt" like areas. Then there is that whole other side... :tissue

Other side of living in the Bible belt? or the other side of the country?

[ChristopherHall]

Yes, I completely failed as a Christian parent by sending my child off to public school to get a decent education... :blah :blah

I prepared her and enabled her to live in the real world, which she would be living and working in for the rest of her life. I feel like such a failure... :blah :blah

If a child is getting the direction and spiritual leadership that they need in the home and at church, and if a parent stays actively involved in their education and schools, then your declarations of your "beliefs" is seriously off base.

I wouldn’t go that far. I know my statement was rather generalized. But my point was lost. My point was…if you feel it’s your Christian duty NOT to expose your child to these things (evolution, drugs, sex, sex education, homosexual agenda, etc) then your only other options are private (charter) schools, religious schools, or home schooling. What aggravates me is that you have these whiney Christian parents who rant about what’s being taught in the WORLD’S school system…yet THEY are the one’s subjecting their children to it. Obviously you’re the kind of parent who allowed some exposure….BUT was involved and helped your child process, interpret, and adapt as a Christian. That’s noble and I think your efforts are commendable. But many parents just drop their kids into the public system and let their kids fend for themselves….then they blame the system when their kid drifts from Christianity in faith and practice.

[ChristopherHall]

I couldn't agree with you more if I tried. I have seen so many backwards, unprepared for life's realities home schooled children it scares me.

Sorry brother just lost a lot of credibility with that one.

My point was…if you feel it’s your Christian duty NOT to expose your child to these things (evolution, drugs, sex, sex education, homosexual agenda, etc) then your only other options are private (charter) schools, religious schools, or home schooling. What aggravates me is that you have these whiney Christian parents who rant about what’s being taught in the WORLD’S school system…yet THEY are the one’s subjecting their children to it.

[ChristopherHall]

The Lord has blessed us with a good school system, so we don't have to worry about homeschooling or private school. There is no way we could do either, so things have worked out well for us. My children love the schools they go to. They are involved in lots of activities, like football (my son). In fact, my oldest daughter was recently chosen as student of the month. It took me almost two years to realize that the reason we are here in this one horse county is because of our children. The Lord wanted to bless them with good schools to go to.

I believe where there is a will there is a way. Praise God your school system is good. Of course with the gay agenda afoot, we must beware. Our children may be breathing the very smoke of Hell.

It’s about more than their education. It’s about their eternity. It would be better to be undereducated than lose one’s soul.

[ChristopherHall]

Seriously! And I am not against home schooling on principal, but I have seen some really disastrous results as well.

I think what ever any parents decide to do regarding their childrens education, they better make sure that they are also preparing them to deal with the pressure in the "real" world, because unless they are planning on living communally, at some point these kids are going to have to deal with it.

And I am not talking about throwing them to the wolves, either. Wisdom must be used daily.

Wisdom. Amen. I favor private charter schools or religious schools, preferably hosted by the church they attend. The Apostolic church I used to attend had a K-12 school and the majority of parents sent their children there. Of course it’s still a parent’s responsibility not to shelter their child to the point that they are incapable of functioning in the real world. In my opinion most maybe shouldn’t home school.

[dizzyde]

Other side of living in the Bible belt? or the other side of the country?

The other side of living in more rural areas...

The small mindedness, prejudice and backward thinking about a lot of things. Along with there being absolutely nothing to do if you don't fish or go to rodeos or ... But I think I've already made myself clear to you on how much I want to get out of here!! :girlytantrum

[DividedThigh]

ah the simple life of a country farmer, lol, dt

[dizzyde]

Now let’s think about gay people. They’re going to do it. They’re going to live together. While we don’t agree with the union, we also don’t agree with divorced people remarrying unless the divorce was on the grounds of adultery. It could it argued that we’re being selective in our judgment against gays because we aren’t crying out loudly at all about this other illicit marriages among straight divorcees…and they take place and will take place far more than gay marriages.

In all honesty…we do we choose to be silent regarding one illicit marriage and rush to judgment against another? Are we being partial in our judgment?

Without politicizing or moral grandstanding. What's the gay community's perspective?

For them it was an issue of “religious liberty”, they felt that their church should have the right to marry them and they should have the right to marry.
For another gay person I talked to the issue was that they felt “separate but equal”. They equated it to the day when we hand water fountains for blacks and water fountains for whites. Both had a water fountain…but one was separate from the other and therefore it was viewed as discriminatory.

While I don’t believe in gay marriage, I can see that this is about more than just challenging norms or them plotting to destroy marriage. They honestly see this as an issue of personal liberties. Most don’t wish us any harm but can see the few extremists in their ranks who might want to curtail preaching against homosexuality, though the Constitution obviously will protect that right. But I say, “Bring it on!” The Church needs a little REAL persecution. We always grow and get real with God in times of oppression or persecution. So I’m not afraid.

.

I believe where there is a will there is a way. Praise God your school system is good. Of course with the gay agenda afoot, we must beware. Our children may be breathing the very smoke of Hell.

It’s about more than their education. It’s about their eternity. It would be better to be undereducated than lose one’s soul.

Man, you are seriously confusing. I can't figure out what your point is, you flip all over the place.

[Praxeas]

The way I see it is that they’re all ready shacking up and they’re going nowhere. In my mind NOBODY should be having sex unless they are legally committed to one another. That means that a man or woman who wants to have intercourse should be married…even if they were each previously divorced for issues other than adultery. Of course as a Christian I’d never sanction such a marriage nor do I think the church should perform them. But if they want to live together…they should go down and have a civil marriage.

Now let’s think about gay people. They’re going to do it. They’re going to live together. While we don’t agree with the union, we also don’t agree with divorced people remarrying unless the divorce was on the grounds of adultery. It could it argued that we’re being selective in our judgment against gays because we aren’t crying out loudly at all about this other illicit marriages among straight divorcees…and they take place and will take place far more than gay marriages.

In all honesty…we do we choose to be silent regarding one illicit marriage and rush to judgment against another? Are we being partial in our judgment?
This is not a good argument for allowing about 3% of the population to change our entire cultural norm or get special rights. Gays already have the same rights you and I have. They can enter into a marriage covenant with someone of the opposite sex. They often do to.

[Praxeas]

All I know is that the majority voted to ban gay marriage for whatever reason.
Obviously then even many liberals are against gay marriage

No man comes unto the Father unless the Spirit draws him. We can’t MAKE people hear us if they don’t want to.
That's nice but has nothing to do with my argument.

[DividedThigh]

good point prax this is about them pressing there ideas on society anyway not rights, they are just humans, having sex of any kind does not give you minority treatment or special status, dt

[Praxeas]

I believe God does. But I believe that God brings judgment on “national sins”.
What about a state?

[Baron1710]

The other side of living in more rural areas...

The small mindedness, prejudice and backward thinking about a lot of things. Along with there being absolutely nothing to do if you don't fish or go to rodeos or ... But I think I've already made myself clear to you on how much I want to get out of here!! :girlytantrum

I gotcha. That is why we loved Virginia Beach so much, and why we want to get back there asap. So much to do, and yet still had the small town feel, it really was like the best of both worlds to us.

[Rico]

My point was…if you feel it’s your Christian duty NOT to expose your child to these things (evolution, drugs, sex, sex education, homosexual agenda, etc) then your only other options are private (charter) schools, religious schools, or home schooling. What aggravates me is that you have these whiney Christian parents who rant about what’s being taught in the WORLD’S school system…yet THEY are the one’s subjecting their children to it.

In my opinion, the problem with this kind of thinking is that children never learn to develop a resistance to worldly thinking, attitudes, etc. They turn 18, head out into the "real" world, are not equipped to deal with its pressures because of Mommy and Daddy's sheltering, and they fail big time. I've seen it happen too many times. I know there are success stories with people who have homeschooled, but I think they are few and far between.

[ChristopherHall]

What about a state?

As in California? LOL

[Baron1710]

good point prax this is about them pressing there ideas on society anyway not rights, they are just humans, having sex of any kind does not give you minority treatment or special status, dt

Oh but it might get you some special "treatment", natural consequences of this lifestyle.

[Rico]

I believe where there is a will there is a way. Praise God your school system is good. Of course with the gay agenda afoot, we must beware. Our children may be breathing the very smoke of Hell.

It’s about more than their education. It’s about their eternity. It would be better to be undereducated than lose one’s soul.

They are going to confront the "gay agenda" as soon as they get out in the workplace. No matter how hard people try to cover the sun with their hands, it's still there.

[Praxeas]

That’s why I believe a Christian parent is failing in their Christian duty if they send their kids to public schools. Send them to a private school or home school. The public schools are already unfit for Christian children and are only going to get worse. Our children already belong to schools...they're called CHURCHES. If we do our Christian duty problem solved.
You know how much it costs to send a kid to a private school? In many areas it is impossible to have one parent working and the other not to stay home with the kind and home school them too. The economy does not allow it. We are mandated by law to send our kids to school and as citizens we then have the right to say what should or should not get taught to our kids.

Do you have kids? In the public school system? It's frustrating to a parent to have their kid come home and ask questions they were taught in schools and express that they are kinda confused. Our churches only have your kids an hour or so each week compared to the schools. The schools should be a place of learning skills to go out and be successful in the work place. Not a place to do social engineering.

Are you really OK with that?

[DividedThigh]

In my opinion, the problem with this kind of thinking is that children never learn to develop a resistance to worldly thinking, attitudes, etc. They turn 18, head out into the "real" world, are not equipped to deal with its pressures because of Mommy and Daddy's sheltering, and they fail big time. I've seen it happen too many times. I know there are success stories with people who have homeschooled, but I think they are few and far between.

strength of character and christian experience are developed by testing and battle, teach them well, bathe them in prayer and support them, that is all any of us can do, dt

[Rico]

The other side of living in more rural areas...

The small mindedness, prejudice and backward thinking about a lot of things. Along with there being absolutely nothing to do if you don't fish or go to rodeos or ... But I think I've already made myself clear to you on how much I want to get out of here!! :girlytantrum

Learn how to fish and be done with it! :D U could also buy yourself a 4x4 and get into muddin. Think of how cool you'd be then....................:D

[Praxeas]

As in California? LOL
Yes, now...gonna answer the question?

[DividedThigh]

Oh but it might get you some special "treatment", natural consequences of this lifestyle.

you mean like a bed in an aids ward, yikes, dt

[dizzyde]

Learn how to fish and be done with it! :D U could also buy yourself a 4x4 and get into muddin. Think of how cool you'd be then....................:D

NO!!!! :ranting :pullhair


:toofunny :toofunny

[Praxeas]

Oh but it might get you some special "treatment", natural consequences of this lifestyle.
One more thing. This is not all about legalities...special rights. They already have those rights. They can already have civil unions. IF they wanted certain rights like if a partner gets sick they can get power of attorney and other things like tht...

This is about approval. They want the state to give official approval to them. In their deluded minds this is the course to getting ALL of us to approve them...

I heard a spokes person for one of their agenda promoting groups say how glad she was that the state (legislature and judicial) approved of gay marriage and then she thanked the good people of the state of California.....but the majority of the good people of California voted to BAN gay marriage. This shows how deluded they are and what their agenda is about. It's not about THEIR rights.

You might see more scenes in the future too....a church was having a meeting and in the middle of that meeting a gay group marched in chanting and holding up signs....they were nasty and totally disruptive. They have an agenda people and that agenda is to change the landscape of the american psyche especially the church

[ChristopherHall]

This is not a good argument for allowing about 3% of the population to change our entire cultural norm or get special rights. Gays already have the same rights you and I have. They can enter into a marriage covenant with someone of the opposite sex. They often do to.

Two generations ago your statement would have sounded like this….

This is not a good argument for allowing about 3% of the population to change our entire cultural norm to get special rights. Blacks and whites already have the same rights you and I have. They can enter into a marriage covenant with someone of the same race. They often do!

It’s not about “allowing” them to change a norm. It’s about constitutionality. The state constitution of California, according to the court, doesn’t grant the state power to restrict the issuance of marriage licenses to two adults of the same gender. We are a nation of laws and due process not preference, opinion, or norms. Here in Ohio, our court couldn’t make such a ruling because our State Constitution was amended to clearly restrict “marriage” to the legal union of one man and one woman. It’s a constitutional issue. The people of California and their elected representatives can pass an Amendment to the state constitution to essentially override the court and ban gay “marriage”.

Interestingly the only way to resolve this is to have each state pass marriage amendment to their respective constitutions or pass an Amendment to the US Constitution specifying that marriage is strictly limited to one man and one woman. Sadly, no candidate appears to support the idea nor is there significant enough grass roots momentum to energize such an idea.

Until marriage is constitutionally protected on the state or federal levels there is no way to legally stop them if challenged in court.

I spend very little of my time trying to control others. We live in a free country and since we spend far more time politicking than ministering. With all the money and effort put toward politicking in our efforts to control the private lives of private citizens…how many more hospitals could have been built? Homeless shelters? Crisis Pregnancy centers? Food pantries? Clothing closets? Churches to save souls?

Jesus sent us to serve this fallen wicked people…not to control them. We are salt and light in this world, not through our efforts to govern and control…but through our being servants to our fellow man. You wanna do something about homosexuality in our country??? Volunteer at an AIDS hospice and wash the feet of dying sinners.

[ChristopherHall]

Yes, now...gonna answer the question?

Is the state of California forcing people to "gay marry"?

[ChristopherHall]

They are going to confront the "gay agenda" as soon as they get out in the workplace. No matter how hard people try to cover the sun with their hands, it's still there.

Very true. That’s why you’ll never hear me complain about the “homosexual agenda” in the public schools. These schools are public and that’s what’s going to happen. If I decided to send my son to a public school, I’d just really involve myself and teach him what we as Christians believe. Of course I don’t plan to send my son to a public school. Ohio has a nice voucher program and if at all possible I’ll send my son to a local private school before I’ll send them to a public school.

[ChristopherHall]

You know how much it costs to send a kid to a private school? In many areas it is impossible to have one parent working and the other not to stay home with the kind and home school them too. The economy does not allow it. We are mandated by law to send our kids to school and as citizens we then have the right to say what should or should not get taught to our kids.

You’re right. I agree. But the cold hard facts are that the school systems are going to engage in this kind of education on some level. So public education is at the bottom of my list as a parent. I’ve already had to give up cable TV, cable internet, and even our home telephone to make ends meet. Once I get my student loan and my care loan paid off (two years!) I’ll have quite a bit of dough comin’ in and the only real bill I’ll have is my mortgage and utilities. We’re really washed out right now and desperately trying to keep our home. So be it. But my point is that I see parents paying on two cars, with cable TV and movie channels, high speed internet, eating out nearly every night…and they say, “But we can’t afford to send Johnny to private school!” Bull. We get by on one car, no cable, no phone, no internet at home (I’m at work right now), we only eat out twice a week IF that. And let me tell you…we’d definitely do this for Noah so he could get a sound education if we have to.

Do you have kids? In the public school system? It's frustrating to a parent to have their kid come home and ask questions they were taught in schools and express that they are kinda confused. Our churches only have your kids an hour or so each week compared to the schools. The schools should be a place of learning skills to go out and be successful in the work place. Not a place to do social engineering.

Are you really OK with that?

Yes I have a son, Noah. No, the little guy isn’t in school yet. We’re getting our budget prepared and learning how our state voucher system works.

My family spends Saturday’s together. We have a sort of “family circle” where we will sit and talk about “things”. Those are the moments when we talk faith and often break open the Bible. It’s important to have these “family studies” or “family circle” times to clarify life for our children. I think that parents that leave their child’s primary education to churches and schools are a bit lazy. The home should be where foundational education is produced rather one home schools or not. That’s my opinion.

I’m against social engineering too. But guess what…I’ve learned enough to know that unless we transfer every gay person in America to Mars there will be some degree of gay agenda in the public system. It’s just the way things are. So as a Christian parent I don’t whine about it. I accept it and look to send my child elsewhere. Time and money are too limited to spend my time fighting gays and their agenda. I’ll send my child elsewhere and live on for Jesus.

[Praxeas]

Two generations ago your statement would have sounded like this….

This is not a good argument for allowing about 3% of the population to change our entire cultural norm to get special rights. Blacks and whites already have the same rights you and I have. They can enter into a marriage covenant with someone of the same race. They often do!

It’s not about “allowing” them to change a norm. It’s about constitutionality.
Yes it is about them changing the CULTURAL norm. It's about REDEFINING words...words that have had the same meaning since forever.

BTW not to long ago blacks DID NOT have the same rights as whites. They were not allowed to eat at the same place, drink from the same fountain etc etc...in our world gays can do ALL that.

[Praxeas]

Is the state of California forcing people to "gay marry"?
Can you answer the question? Let me remind you. I asked about God's judgement. You said to nations that sin or whatever and I asked about states. What about states

[Praxeas]

You’re right. I agree. But the cold hard facts are that the school systems are going to engage in this kind of education on some level.
The cold hard FACTS are that only happens because "we" are apathetic and do NOTHING.

There was a time when far less teens were having premarital sex....now they are told "you are gonna do it anywas so wear a condom"....and "we" say "it's gonna happen anyways, nothing we can do about it. Let's bury our heads"

[ChristopherHall]

One more thing. This is not all about legalities...special rights. They already have those rights. They can already have civil unions. IF they wanted certain rights like if a partner gets sick they can get power of attorney and other things like tht...

They argue that legally civil unions are like having different drinking fountains for whites and blacks. It goes back to the “separate but equal” issues in civil rights. Even if we disagree…that’s where they’re coming from.

This is about approval. They want the state to give official approval to them. In their deluded minds this is the course to getting ALL of us to approve them...

The state has no power to “approve” of any private institution or contract. What’s at issue is legal “recognition”. The state doesn’t approve or disapprove of a couple marrying unlawfully (for example if both are divorcees for reasons other than adultery). The state doesn’t “approve” of these unions…the state only “recognizes” them. BIG difference bro.

Now here’s where what you’re saying does come in though. Many Americans seem to think that if the state legalizes something that it’s “approved”. So on a social level of the citizen psyche people might assume it’s approved. That’s where we come in. We preach traditional values and let people know God doesn’t approve.

I heard a spokes person for one of their agenda promoting groups say how glad she was that the state (legislature and judicial) approved of gay marriage and then she thanked the good people of the state of California.....but the majority of the good people of California voted to BAN gay marriage. This shows how deluded they are and what their agenda is about. It's not about THEIR rights.

You’re cherry picking and generalizing. They do the same thing when they say all we want to do is criminalize gay people. Give me a break. Both of y’all on the extremes of each side are making life miserable for the rest of us. LOL

I know a priest who served as Dean over the Anglican Academy of Columbus. He sees it as a religious liberty issue because he feels his church should have the right to marry whoever they so choose. He argues it well from a religious liberty perspective.

You might see more scenes in the future too....a church was having a meeting and in the middle of that meeting a gay group marched in chanting and holding up signs....they were nasty and totally disruptive. They have an agenda people and that agenda is to change the landscape of the american psyche especially the church

Dude…they say the same things about us. This is like a war where neither side is willing to learn to live together and stop shooting. Both sides are going absolutely crazy and feel their side is perfectly justified. I say this battle will never be “won”. The amount of money and time it takes away from the Gospel isn’t worth it. Give them the rights they want and shut them up. Don’t want them in the school system? Take your kids to private schools or home school. This is a battle we’re not going to “win”. It’s a never ending battle that will take away from the very reason we’re hear…to reach the lost. God didn’t call us to sanctify the government. Christ called us to preach the Gospel. Satan loves the fact that hundreds of millions of dollars were donated to stop gay marriage last year while hundreds of churches shut their doors because they weren’t able to pay the bills. He loves the fact that we through hours of protest and tons of money at this…and we don’t build a single church, shelter, or hospital. Bro…here’s something that is so deep it will revolutionize your life IF you can grasp it:

The Serenity Prayer

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pat-hway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

--Reinhold Niebuhr

[My Own Eyes]

You on the one hand say you don't agree with gay marriage...then on the other say you disagree with using the term marriage. This is not about gay civil unions. It really IS about GAY marriages and the state recognizing LEGALLY that they are married like a man and a woman are.. It is not about rights. It is about redefining the word Marriage

I'm sorry, for not wording my opinion very well.

I have no problem with homosexual unions. I have no problem with homosexuality as a whole. I say to each their own.

However, I "dislike" the phrase "gay marriage", as by definition marriage is about a husband and a wife. I don't think its a proper term. It's a misnomer.

But I have no problem with their relationships being recognized as having the same legal rights as marriages.

[TheLayman]

One more thing. This is not all about legalities...special rights. They already have those rights. They can already have civil unions. IF they wanted certain rights like if a partner gets sick they can get power of attorney and other things like tht...

This is about approval. They want the state to give official approval to them. In their deluded minds this is the course to getting ALL of us to approve them...

I heard a spokes person for one of their agenda promoting groups say how glad she was that the state (legislature and judicial) approved of gay marriage and then she thanked the good people of the state of California.....but the majority of the good people of California voted to BAN gay marriage. This shows how deluded they are and what their agenda is about. It's not about THEIR rights.

You might see more scenes in the future too....a church was having a meeting and in the middle of that meeting a gay group marched in chanting and holding up signs....they were nasty and totally disruptive. They have an agenda people and that agenda is to change the landscape of the american psyche especially the church

Hellp Praxeas:

It goes beyond this my friend. I keep trying to tell people that the secular humanist Anti-Christ doctrine is already at war against God's people and against morality. Christians think the war is coming, but it still off in the future somewhere. Newsflash, the war has been here, it's been here for some time, and Christians have allowed themselves to be boxed into a little corner. The point is, strategically Anti-theism has the high ground and Satan isn't taking prisoners.

You see, this is a nation of laws, literally. And often, one law affects another law, and you can have a domino effect. First let me say that "gays" have no "right" to "Marry," unless of course you redefine marriage. So what the courts did in effect was redefine marriage, something the court should not do (but the danger of courts is that they can do anything they want because in that sense they are above the law, especially when you legislate from the bench).

But here's the main thing, the important thing, the real important thing. This isn't about acceptance, this is about direct warfare with "the church." You do realize that Californian has hate speech laws. How long to you think it will be before teaching that homsexuality is immoral, wrong, sinful (pick your word) is said to be hate speech by the "courts" and not protected speech. In other words, the courts are about to take away the church pulpit on this issue and start fining organizations and so forth.

Oh, those leading the "gay rights" agenda will take this one step at a time. First, they need to torpedo an amendment to the state constitution. If that is accomplished, the next move will be on two fronts. The direct frontal assault on the church: Morality vs. Hate Speech as defined by the courts. And gays will go to states where same sex marriage is legal (like California) to get married, return to their own states where the state has made it illegal and then file suit in federal court for civil rights violation and equal protection.

Folks, the anti-Theists have been waging an incredible war. They have convinced the majority of people that Atheist Materialism is actually science, seared the conscious of the majority of America into allowing mothers to "choose" to kill their own children while some stand by and say, "Can't see it from my yard, the blood isn't on my hands," congressman can mock people of faith and call them the "whackos on the Christian right," and so on.

It's about to get ugly, and it's going to be sooner rather than later. Our government is supposed to be "we the people." Better make your vote count, and make your voices heard as best you can.

Blessings,
TheLayman

[Sherri]

I'm sorry, for not wording my opinion very well.

I have no problem with homosexual unions. I have no problem with homosexuality as a whole. I say to each their own.

However, I "dislike" the phrase "gay marriage", as by definition marriage is about a husband and a wife. I don't think its a proper term. It's a misnomer.

But I have no problem with their relationships being recognized as having the same legal rights as marriages.
Mich, do you really believe that God is ok with homosexuality? I just can't justify it according to the Word of God.

[Rico]

This is the thing. There is no way to legislate conviction. Even if laws were passed that make preaching against homosexuality a sin, there is nothing stopping God from convicting someone of that sin. I think we are too stuck in a mindset of having to hear the preacher specifically name sin for him to be preaching against sin. There is nothing that says a preacher has to name certain sins as such. He can preach against sin, and let God do the convicting on what sin is in someone's life. There seems to be so much fear about this or that happening that I think people are losing sight of the fact that God always leaves himself a way of getting His message across.

[My Own Eyes]

Mich, do you really believe that God is ok with homosexuality? I just can't justify it according to the Word of God.

As Chandler on "Friends" would say...."Can open....worms....everywhere" :toofunny


The simpliest way to answer this is that I believe Jesus is the word of God, which is a completely separate thing from the Bible, (which people like to call the word of God) which I believe is a collection of stories and thoughts written by followers of the Lord from their perspective.

Beyond that, the passages in the Bible that condemn homosexuality are subject to interpretation. Some argue that the OT passages that call it abomination are not referring to the modern committed homosexual relationships, but instead pagan worship and idolatry. This would be a distinction of utmost imporatance to those who believe in the Inspired Authorship of the Bible. Not so in my case.

What the original writers of the Bible intended is not as critical to me, as I believe their words to be influenced and filtered through their culture and world view.

I suppose I should take this moment to add a disclaimer, that this does not mean that I view the Bible as entirely worthless. I do actually believe that it contains a great bit of wisdom, and furthermore, I believe that God can (and does) speak to people through the Bible. But it is just one of the thousands of ways that he does so.)

[Rico]

Another point that has come to mind is that we are not called to mold the world into a Christian mindset. We are called to save people from the world. The world is gonna be the world. In fact, the Bible says it's going to get worse as time marches on. Seeing things like homosexual marriage becoming legal doesn't really bother me, because I am not called to establish an earthly kingdom for God. None of us are. That doesn't mean we can't be upset about the changes we see taking place, but it does mean that we don't have to be in despair over what is going on.

[Rico]

As Chandler on "Friends" would say...."Can open....worms....everywhere" :toofunny


The simpliest way to answer this is that I believe Jesus is the word of God, which is a completely separate thing from the Bible, (which people like to call the word of God) which I believe is a collection of stories and thoughts written by followers of the Lord from their perspective.

Beyond that, the passages in the Bible that condemn homosexuality are subject to interpretation. Some argue that the OT passages that call it abomination are not referring to the modern committed homosexual relationships, but instead pagan worship and idolatry. This would be a distinction of utmost imporatance to those who believe in the Inspired Authorship of the Bible. Not so in my case.

What the original writers of the Bible intended is not as critical to me, as I believe their words to be influenced and filtered through their culture and world view.

I suppose I should take this moment to add a disclaimer, that this does not mean that I view the Bible as entirely worthless. I do actually believe that it contains a great bit of wisdom, and furthermore, I believe that God can (and does) speak to people through the Bible. But it is just one of the thousands of ways that he does so.)

Hang on a minute. You believe that Jesus is the Word, but the Bible isn't the Word? Did I read you right?

[Sherri]

As Chandler on "Friends" would say...."Can open....worms....everywhere" :toofunny


The simpliest way to answer this is that I believe Jesus is the word of God, which is a completely separate thing from the Bible, (which people like to call the word of God) which I believe is a collection of stories and thoughts written by followers of the Lord from their perspective.

Beyond that, the passages in the Bible that condemn homosexuality are subject to interpretation. Some argue that the OT passages that call it abomination are not referring to the modern committed homosexual relationships, but instead pagan worship and idolatry. This would be a distinction of utmost imporatance to those who believe in the Inspired Authorship of the Bible. Not so in my case.

What the original writers of the Bible intended is not as critical to me, as I believe their words to be influenced and filtered through their culture and world view.

I suppose I should take this moment to add a disclaimer, that this does not mean that I view the Bible as entirely worthless. I do actually believe that it contains a great bit of wisdom, and furthermore, I believe that God can (and does) speak to people through the Bible. But it is just one of the thousands of ways that he does so.)

Gotcha! I don't agree, but you know I LOVE YOU!!!

[My Own Eyes]

Hang on a minute. You believe that Jesus is the Word, but the Bible isn't the Word? Did I read you right?

A very wise man once shared with me, that God never promised to send us a book to comfort us, and counsel us, to lead us, and to guide us into all truth. However, he did promise to send us something else to do those things, that being The Holy Spirit.

And yet, you Christians seem to place the Bible above all else.

[My Own Eyes]

Gotcha! I don't agree, but you know I LOVE YOU!!!

I appreciate that! :friend

A certain lady on another forum likes to give me a hard time, because though I have shared my views about the Bible, she says that I quote it an awful lot. To which I answer "It's the only way I can get you guys to take me seriously!" :D

[Rico]

A very wise man once shared with me, that God never promised to send us a book to comfort us, and counsel us, to lead us, and to guide us into all truth. However, he did promise to send us something else to do those things, that being The Holy Spirit.

And yet, you Christians seem to place the Bible above all else.

Ya didn't answer my question, Sister. Anyway, if you believe that Jesus is the Word, then how did you come to believe it?

[My Own Eyes]

Ya didn't answer my question, Sister. Anyway, if you believe that Jesus is the Word, then how did you come to believe it?

Because the Bible tells me so? :heeheehee

yes, I too recognize the illogical fallacy of my statement.

Simply stated. The core of my belief is that Jesus is God. Everything I know of his character just shouts of his divinity. I first learned of his character through the stories written about his life. Stories that I believe were written by men, (not God), but this does not necessarily make them false.

Anyway, they sparked my curiousity, to the point where I reached out in faith and attempted to have a relationship with this Jesus that I read about. Which began a wonderful, if rocky, relationship during which among other things I was filled with His Spirit.

It is His spirit inside me that speaks to me, teaches me, guides me, leads me, comforts me, counsels me, etc. It does this both internally, but also through external sources, including other believers, TV shows, fiction books, movies, sermons, song lyrics, and yes the collection of books we call the Bible.

Many times God has spoken to me through those words, which I have already stated I believe to contain a great deal of Wisdom. And often the Spirit inside of me, confirms the wisdom and/or truth that may be contained in those words.

Does that make more sense? When I say I don't believe the Bible to be the "word of God" people tend to think its means I think the Bible is useless, worthless, and is filled with meaningless words.

[ChristopherHall]

Yes it is about them changing the CULTURAL norm. It's about REDEFINING words...words that have had the same meaning since forever.

Bro…this world doesn’t define words. ;) They will always have the same meaning regardless of what society embraces. Again…nobody is willing to talk word one about unholy straight marriages where two divorcees are married who had divorced for reasons other than adultery. Those “marriages” are still eternally “adultery”. I know some are soft on it saying, “Well now…God forgives.” Yes, God forgives…but they will still answer for adultery and the Church was NEVER granted permission to recognize such adulterous relationships.

BTW not to long ago blacks DID NOT have the same rights as whites. They were not allowed to eat at the same place, drink from the same fountain etc etc...in our world gays can do ALL that.

They also were not allowed to marry whoever they wanted…especially if that person was white. ;)

The issue is does Government have the right to tell two private citizens of legal age they cannot marry? Bro…marriage is a private contract…the state shouldn’t have a single say in it. The state doesn’t own marriage. Although that’s what we’ve been taught to believe.

[ChristopherHall]

Can you answer the question? Let me remind you. I asked about God's judgement. You said to nations that sin or whatever and I asked about states. What about states

If a state performs wickedness, I believe that state will be judged by God. If the state places the choice in the hands of individuals…the individuals who choose such a thing will be judged by God. For example if California were to force abortion (as provinces in China do) or if the state forced people to “gay marry” or face stiff fines for being a straight couple…indeed God would judge the state. When the power to choose is put into the hands of individual citizens the citizens themselves as individuals are the ones answerable to God. For example… pornography, every state I know of allows it. Will God judge the nation or these states for allowing pornography or will he judge those who buy pornography? In a free country individuals are sovereign and responsible for their own sins. In a strict regimented society where the government mandates sinful behaviors like idolatry, atheism, genocide, abortion, land confiscation, etc. God will judge that country or state.

In a sense…liberty can save a sinful nation from facing the wrath of God…because it makes individuals responsible before God’s eyes.

God’s judgment works in multiple levels. Our national policy of free trade with China who has MURDERED 400 MILLION unborn babies as a national mandate is far greater a moral outrage than a state allowing individual citizens to choose for themselves how they want to live. Wal-Mart is belching in profits from doing business with the child devouring Chinese.

[ChristopherHall]

The cold hard FACTS are that only happens because "we" are apathetic and do NOTHING.

I don’t advocate doing NOTHING. I advocate preaching the gospel and teaching the Bible. Politics is a distraction. Christians turned Rome upside down…and they didn’t do it through politics. They did it through PREACHING. The problem is, most trust their political activism more than the power of the Gospel because they don’t pray enough and have NO spiritual power. Most trust their vote more than their prayers! Now that’s idolatry in my opinion.

Too many of us are PAWNS of the political establishment that calls itself “conservative” because they play games with our minds using our convictions to get us to vote for them so they can then turn around and turn massive profits and gut the public infrastructure of funding. For example the FDA under the leadership of Bush’s appointments have turned a blind eye to contaminated medication coming into the US from China. The Democrats in Congress have demanded a list of companies where these contaminated drugs came from…but the Administration advised those appointed over the FDA not to submit that information…in the name of protecting corporate privacy. And there are those who have worked for the FDA and for health commissions who advocate for these big insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. Once they pass laws that work in the favor of these companies guess what…when they leave office they get a NICE office with a view and stock options with the company they advocated for. CORRUPTION.

Bro….don’t let them manipulate you by using your religious convictions to get you to march in their army. Bro…just preach the Gospel and let God go to work in our country unfettered. The Supreme Court can’t overturn a move of God. No court can overturn a heart that’s saved.

I don’t advocate doing NOTHING. I advocating being CHRISTIAN…a biblical Christian who believes in the power of God over politics. The World will only get worse and worse. The Bible tells us. Why should I invest so much time, money, and effort in polishing the brass on this sinking ship???

There was a time when far less teens were having premarital sex....now they are told "you are gonna do it anywas so wear a condom"....and "we" say "it's gonna happen anyways, nothing we can do about it. Let's bury our heads"

Bro…I feel you. I wish it were as easy as telling our kids not to do something and then they just don’t do it. But the reality is they have sex. Think about it…for the vast majority of human history most human beings have married at around the age of 15. In biblical times it was 12 years old. Today we expect they have to finish high school and are strongly encouraged to finish college before becoming married. That makes them in their mid 20’s at the earliest. Guess what…human biology hasn’t changed. We are shocked at teens having intercourse…but bro…for the vast majority of human history they would already be able to marry and not be carried away with desire. My point is that teens have always been having sex. In the past centuries they would typically marry first. It’s primarily within the past 100 years that we’ve tried to pressure them to go an additional 10 or 15 years before marrying. As parents, this is what we’re up against. Biology hasn’t changed. A assure you that while you THINK there was a time when teens had far less premarital sex…the reality is that it was just less obvious and was hidden quite well.

We need to rear our kids up in the LORD and pray that they control themselves. But there are kids that don’t have God in their lives and they are going to make stupid choices. Guess what…would you rather them get pregnant, have abortions, or get AIDS…or would you rather them protect themselves? Throughout the 90’s teens were the leading demographic contracting AIDS. Those numbers went down significantly when condoms and education became available to them.

I think the concern is that if we don’t provide them protection and education the rate of teens getting AIDS will go up again.

Bro…I don’t like it any more than you do…but if we’re going to reach them… we have to keep them alive. Do you think taking condoms away from them will increase incidents of AIDS and pregnancy among teens or decrease it? If it will decrease it…I’m for it. I just haven’t seen any evidence of that yet.

[Rico]

Because the Bible tells me so? :heeheehee

yes, I too recognize the illogical fallacy of my statement.

Simply stated. The core of my belief is that Jesus is God. Everything I know of his character just shouts of his divinity. I first learned of his character through the stories written about his life. Stories that I believe were written by men, (not God), but this does not necessarily make them false.

Anyway, they sparked my curiousity, to the point where I reached out in faith and attempted to have a relationship with this Jesus that I read about. Which began a wonderful, if rocky, relationship during which among other things I was filled with His Spirit.

It is His spirit inside me that speaks to me, teaches me, guides me, leads me, comforts me, counsels me, etc. It does this both internally, but also through external sources, including other believers, TV shows, fiction books, movies, sermons, song lyrics, and yes the collection of books we call the Bible.

Many times God has spoken to me through those words, which I have already stated I believe to contain a great deal of Wisdom. And often the Spirit inside of me, confirms the wisdom and/or truth that may be contained in those words.

Does that make more sense? When I say I don't believe the Bible to be the "word of God" people tend to think its means I think the Bible is useless, worthless, and is filled with meaningless words.

Can you see how you are contradicting yourself? You say you believe Jesus is the Word, partly because the Word tells you so, but then you say you don't believe in the Bible, which is the Word of God. My suggestion would be for you to take a leap of faith and just believe the Bible to be God's Word. ;)

I can certainly understand your need to question so much. In fact, I think it's good for all of us to know what we know. However, there is a trap we can get caught in while doing all this questioning. It's a trap of getting to the point that we can't trust anything, including the very Spirit God has given us for guidance. I know it can be difficult to separate man's opinion and experience from the things we read in God's Word, but it isn't impossible. It's called faith.

I know. I know. How can we have faith when we have trust issues? I have found it's really not as hard as I once thought. The key is to look for agreement. If what you find in the Bible agrees with other things you find in the Bible, and the Spirit God has placed in you agrees with those things you've found in the Bible, then you have found truth.

Truth takes work and effort on our part. It takes study, prayer, and even experience to know if what we believe pleases God. There's no easy way around the studying, praying, and experiencing either.:)

Our search for truth will never come to an end, at least not in this life. Eventually we get to the place that certain aspects of truth move beyond being established and strengthened to being settled. That's how we build our "spiritual house", so to speak, one brick of truth at a time.

[ChristopherHall]

As Chandler on "Friends" would say...."Can open....worms....everywhere" :toofunny


The simpliest way to answer this is that I believe Jesus is the word of God, which is a completely separate thing from the Bible, (which people like to call the word of God) which I believe is a collection of stories and thoughts written by followers of the Lord from their perspective.

Beyond that, the passages in the Bible that condemn homosexuality are subject to interpretation. Some argue that the OT passages that call it abomination are not referring to the modern committed homosexual relationships, but instead pagan worship and idolatry. This would be a distinction of utmost imporatance to those who believe in the Inspired Authorship of the Bible. Not so in my case.

What the original writers of the Bible intended is not as critical to me, as I believe their words to be influenced and filtered through their culture and world view.

I suppose I should take this moment to add a disclaimer, that this does not mean that I view the Bible as entirely worthless. I do actually believe that it contains a great bit of wisdom, and furthermore, I believe that God can (and does) speak to people through the Bible. But it is just one of the thousands of ways that he does so.)

I disagree. LOL But I too still love ya. ;)

I’d be more inclined to believe our interpretation was incorrect than believe that the Bible wasn’t the Word of God.

My pastor said something awesome regarding homosexuality. He said that he wasn’t afraid that they say it’s genetic. He said that would only validate the Bible because the Bible calls sins of this nature “works of the flesh”. Paul said that in his flesh there was no good thing. Our flesh (biology and genetics) is fallen and corrupted. So he doesn’t doubt that some never chose to be gay and that it might be in their corrupted flesh, or their genetics. But he then turns and teaches that Jesus will forgive, empower, and heal.

So I see gay people like people who are being held captive by sin at work in their flesh (possibly genetics). I pray for their salvation, their forgiveness, and their healing. And I’m very patient and understanding with them. I do believe that even gay people can be saved, though they might struggle with same sex attraction, temptations, thoughts, and may have even fallen on occasion. We’re all sinners and I know God has forgiven me of so much and has always been there for me when I fell on my face because of sin. I believe Jesus will be there for them too. The difficulty is getting them to turn to him for their salvation because they have to admit that their condition isn’t part of his perfect design for mankind and admit that they are helpless against it to save themselves. Most want to justify their sinful inclinations and refuse to fess up and ask for forgiveness and help.

[My Own Eyes]

Can you see how you are contradicting yourself? You say you believe Jesus is the Word, partly because the Word tells you so, but then you say you don't believe in the Bible, which is the Word of God. My suggestion would be for you to take a leap of faith and just believe the Bible to be God's Word. ;)

I can certainly understand your need to question so much. In fact, I think it's good for all of us to know what we know. However, there is a trap we can get caught in while doing all this questioning. It's a trap of getting to the point that we can't trust anything, including the very Spirit God has given us for guidance. I know it can be difficult to separate man's opinion and experience from the things we read in God's Word, but it isn't impossible. It's called faith.

I know. I know. How can we have faith when we have trust issues? I have found it's really not as hard as I once thought. The key is to look for agreement. If what you find in the Bible agrees with other things you find in the Bible, and the Spirit God has placed in you agrees with those things you've found in the Bible then you have found truth.

Truth takes work and effort on our part. It takes study, prayer, and even experience to know if what we believe pleases God. There's no easy way around the studying, praying, and experiencing either.:)

Our search for truth will never come to an end, at least not in this life. Eventually we get to the place that certain aspects of truth move beyond being established and strengthened to being settled. That's how we build our "spiritual house", so to speak, one brick of truth at a time.

Amazingly I don't feel like I am contradicting myself at all ;) (the part about the word telling me so was me being facetious, I thought I explained myself well afterwords, but just in case, here it is simplified even more)

(I believe) The bible was written by men.

God can speak through any person, any situation, any thing!

Which means that God can speak to someone through words, letters & books written by men, including, but not limited to the Bible.

So the fact that God can speak through the Bible, does not necessarily mean that the Bible was written by God.

As for believing by faith, it is precisely because I have faith in God, that I do not believe that a book that advocates the slaughter of children, slavery and discrimination towards the female sex, was penned by Him ;)

[My Own Eyes]

I disagree. LOL But I too still love ya. ;)

I’d be more inclined to believe our interpretation was incorrect than believe that the Bible wasn’t the Word of God.

My pastor said something awesome regarding homosexuality. He said that he wasn’t afraid that they say it’s genetic. He said that would only validate the Bible because the Bible calls sins of this nature “works of the flesh”. Paul said that in his flesh there was no good thing. Our flesh (biology and genetics) is fallen and corrupted. So he doesn’t doubt that some never chose to be gay and that it might be in their corrupted flesh, or their genetics. But he then turns and teaches that Jesus will forgive, empower, and heal.

So I see gay people like people who are being held captive by sin at work in their flesh (possibly genetics). I pray for their salvation, their forgiveness, and their healing. And I’m very patient and understanding with them. I do believe that even gay people can be saved, though they might struggle with same sex attraction, temptations, thoughts, and may have even fallen on occasion. We’re all sinners and I know God has forgiven me of so much and has always been there for me when I fell on my face because of sin. I believe Jesus will be there for them too. The difficulty is getting them to turn to him for their salvation because they have to admit that their condition isn’t part of his perfect design for mankind and admit that they are helpless against it to save themselves. Most want to justify their sinful inclinations and refuse to fess up and ask for forgiveness and help.

It's ok to disagree with me. In fact, if it weren't for Timmy, I would never know agreement! :toofunny

[tamor]

I gotcha. That is why we loved Virginia Beach so much, and why we want to get back there asap. So much to do, and yet still had the small town feel, it really was like the best of both worlds to us.

Baron, my in-laws live in Hampton. My hubby would absolutely LOVE to move back to that area. He loves the east coast.

[Timmy]

It's ok to disagree with me. In fact, if it weren't for Timmy, I would never know agreement! :toofunny

Always glad to help! :lol

[Rico]

Amazingly I don't feel like I am contradicting myself at all ;) (the part about the word telling me so was me being facetious, I thought I explained myself well afterwords, but just in case, here it is simplified even more)

(I believe) The bible was written by men.

God can speak through any person, any situation, any thing!

Which means that God can speak to someone through words, letters & books written by men, including, but not limited to the Bible.

So the fact that God can speak through the Bible, does not necessarily mean that the Bible was written by God.

As for believing by faith, it is precisely because I have faith in God, that I do not believe that a book that advocates the slaughter of children, slavery and discrimination towards the female sex, was penned by Him ;)

The Bible doesn't say it was written by God. It says it was inspired by Him. The whole point behind the Word the God is to give us an understanding of His nature, the things He likes and dislikes, and to give us instructions on how to do things that please Him. There was a time in history when God dealt with man in a different way than He does now, so that would explain the things you mentioned about children being killed, etc.

You need to keep in mind that He was in the process of establishing a nation when those things were taking place, and He knew that it was necessary for His chosen people to completely eradicate their enemies. Otherwise, as evidenced by things that happened when His instructions to kill every member of a particular people or tribe were not followed, those enemies would rise back up against His chosen, the Israelites.

We are now living under a time of grace, so it can be difficult to picture the God we've come to know giving out those kinds of orders, but it doesn't change the fact that He did. It's no different than understanding that this same God of grace will one day pronounce a final judgement on this world and those people who have chosen not to follow Him. It's difficult to picture Him doing that, but His Word says that it's going to happen.

[TRFrance]

"SAN FRANCISCO - In a monumental victory for the gay rights movement, the California Supreme Court overturned a voter-approved ban on gay marriage Thursday in a ruling that would allow same-sex couples in the nation's biggest state to tie the knot. "

" Jeanie Rizzo, one of the plaintiffs, called Pali Cooper, her partner of 19 years, and asked, "Pali, will you marry me?" "


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080515/ap_on_re_us/gay_marriage

(barf!)

[Rico]

Gay marriage opponents vow to fight Calif. ruling




http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080516/ap_on_re_us/gay_marriage;_ylt=AhQXhqkwCebwQZzSBr1zsOas0NUE

[Timmy]

Gay marriage opponents vow to fight Calif. ruling




http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080516/ap_on_re_us/gay_marriage;_ylt=AhQXhqkwCebwQZzSBr1zsOas0NUE

Interesting how much time and effort some people put into preventing others from sinning (in their view). Why is that? Do they think those poor misguided people might make it to heaven, if we can only make them stop their sinful ways?

Do they also want laws passed against the ultimate sin -- rejecting Jesus?

Seriously. I don't get it.

[Hoovie]

More dirt.

http://www.tv.yahoo.com/the-ellen-degeneres-show/show/35584/videos/7848875

[Praxeas]

They argue that legally civil unions are like having different drinking fountains for whites and blacks. It goes back to the “separate but equal” issues in civil rights. Even if we disagree…that’s where they’re coming from.

You make a great apologist for the gay agenda, but let's can the emotional arguments and appeal to racism and deal with reality. Gays CAN and always HAVE been allowed to enter into a MARRIAGE union just like Heterosexuals. It is NOTHING like blacks and whites and segregation. Gays are not segregated. They are not forced to drink out of special fountains or sit on the back of the bus. Marriages are for a specific purpose. It is NOT to legitimize homosexual couples. It never was. That takes a redefinition of the word and a total flipflop of all social norms. That is not segregation or racism. It's reality. And as for the emotive arguments and appeal to race ...Black people I have heard find it insulting to compare gay rights to racial equality....and as I said already gays already have all the same rights everyone else does. They can marry anyone they want of the opposite sex. Same with Heterosexuals.

The state has no power to “approve” of any private institution or contract. What’s at issue is legal “recognition”.
They just did. Aren't you paying attention. They gave approval to gay marriages. It's not a matter of what the state intended. It's a matter of what the GAY agenda wanted and perceives. As I stated already, in THEIR DELUDED MINDS......See if a higher authority says it is OK for them to marry then they hope this will begin a domino effect that will trickle down to all segments of society. The same effort is being pushed through the media

Now here’s where what you’re saying does come in though. Many Americans seem to think that if the state legalizes something that it’s “approved”. So on a social level of the citizen psyche people might assume it’s approved. That’s where we come in. We preach traditional values and let people know God doesn’t approve.
Wow...you waisted all that time telling me something that means nothing to what I said and here you should that you understood what my point was.

You ever hear the word obfuscation and Red herring arguments?

You’re cherry picking and generalizing.
What the heck does that mean? Show me where or how?

They do the same thing when they say all we want to do is criminalize gay people. Give me a break. Both of y’all on the extremes of each side are making life miserable for the rest of us. LOL
What in the world are you talking about? You aren't making any sense. Nobody said anything about criminalizing gay people...

I know a priest who served as Dean over the Anglican Academy of Columbus. He sees it as a religious liberty issue because he feels his church should have the right to marry whoever they so choose. He argues it well from a religious liberty perspective.
I don't care really....more obfusation. Let's deal with the current topic and keep it relevant. In not interested in "personal interest stories". So what if he sees that. That means nothing to me.

Dude…they say the same things about us.
Dude, I don't care what they say about "us". That proves nothing OTHER than "they say the same thing about us" nor does it disprove anything I said

This is like a war where neither side is willing to learn to live together and stop shooting.
Are you nuts? Nobody is talking about shooting anyone. Nobody is talking about NOT being able to live together. WE live together, We HAVE lived together. I have NO animosity towards gays. I never killed one. I never harassed one. You really are shooting off in the wrong direction

Both sides are going absolutely crazy and feel their side is perfectly justified.
Neither side is going absolutely crazy...look you can make the wildest false emotive claims you want. You can wave your arms frantically and accuse people of all kinds of nasty emotional feelings. It does NOT prove you right or anyone else wrong. Nobody is going crazy. We are discussing somethign pertaining to OUR nation and WE have a right AS Americans to vote HOW we feel is right to do. You sound almost as if you advocate we all just bury our heads in the sand or play see no evil hear no evil and not vote or do anything for what we feel is best for the nation...yet on other threads you are all Mr Politics.

We are Americans. We have a RIGHT to vote and a RIGHT to take political action. It does not require killing people. They do it. They have a very ACTIVE social and political activism network. That is their right. But we have the same right too.


I say this battle will never be “won”.
Battles are always won, wars continue. Any battle we lose it is because of apathy

The amount of money and time it takes away from the Gospel isn’t worth it.
Prove it! Prove ANYONE is taking money away from the gospel. One can make that argument about anything...sell your car and take public transportation and give your money to the gospel.

Give them the rights they want and shut them up.
Huh?!?! Just willy nilly make special rights for 3% of the population? What if the Muslims started demanding special rights JUST for Muslims? Why should anyone JUST give someone what they want? Let's give them the right to abort babies too...oh wait we did that. See the problem with just giving people rights and hoping they shut up? The only problem is they will NOT just shut up. They want to change the thinking of the American conscious to accept the gay lifestyle. See you just are not getting it. Again it is NOT about legalities. With civil unions they have or can have ALL the same privileges as heterosexuals

Don’t want them in the school system? Take your kids to private schools or home school.
You are just repeating yourself not and as I pointed out last time it is NOT that simple. Maybe you got money coming out of your ears but not everyone else does nor can they afford to have a stay at home parent. School is mandatory and as American citizens we have a RIGHT to say HOW our country should go all the way down to the the local schools. WE do it through voting. We do it through contacting representatives. And if YOU don't like it you can take YOUR kid to a private school...just incredible....If you don't like how things are going in your country are you going to take the option to go somewhere else? Or are you going to be apathetic and just wait for the big one to hit and wipe us all out when ALL along you like every other American HAD the ability to make changes.


This is a battle we’re not going to “win”.
OMG....do you realize how often you just repeat yourself ad nauseum?

It’s a never ending battle that will take away from the very reason we’re hear…to reach the lost.
Oh baloney. It does not take that much time or effort and IN THE PROCESS you might meet someone at the polling place and witness to them.

God didn’t call us to sanctify the government.
Oh brother...then don't do ANYTHING other than preach the gospel. Fine, you go ahead and do that. Stop waisting so much time defending Obama....why do you spend so much time NOT preaching the gospel by talking politics? Why are you even here now? You are waisting valuable time and perhaps even money. Get off the internet. Give that money to the gospel. Go out and preach the gospel and lead by example.

[Praxeas]

I'm sorry, for not wording my opinion very well.

I have no problem with homosexual unions. I have no problem with homosexuality as a whole. I say to each their own.

However, I "dislike" the phrase "gay marriage", as by definition marriage is about a husband and a wife. I don't think its a proper term. It's a misnomer.

But I have no problem with their relationships being recognized as having the same legal rights as marriages.
This isn't about them having the same rights "as a marriage" because they can already have that. It really was just about gays getting married...being recognized by the state as a married couple

[Praxeas]

Hellp Praxeas:

It goes beyond this my friend. I keep trying to tell people that the secular humanist Anti-Christ doctrine is already at war against God's people and against morality. Christians think the war is coming, but it still off in the future somewhere. Newsflash, the war has been here, it's been here for some time, and Christians have allowed themselves to be boxed into a little corner. The point is, strategically Anti-theism has the high ground and Satan isn't taking prisoners.

You see, this is a nation of laws, literally. And often, one law affects another law, and you can have a domino effect. First let me say that "gays" have no "right" to "Marry," unless of course you redefine marriage. So what the courts did in effect was redefine marriage, something the court should not do (but the danger of courts is that they can do anything they want because in that sense they are above the law, especially when you legislate from the bench).

But here's the main thing, the important thing, the real important thing. This isn't about acceptance, this is about direct warfare with "the church." You do realize that Californian has hate speech laws. How long to you think it will be before teaching that homsexuality is immoral, wrong, sinful (pick your word) is said to be hate speech by the "courts" and not protected speech. In other words, the courts are about to take away the church pulpit on this issue and start fining organizations and so forth.

Oh, those leading the "gay rights" agenda will take this one step at a time. First, they need to torpedo an amendment to the state constitution. If that is accomplished, the next move will be on two fronts. The direct frontal assault on the church: Morality vs. Hate Speech as defined by the courts. And gays will go to states where same sex marriage is legal (like California) to get married, return to their own states where the state has made it illegal and then file suit in federal court for civil rights violation and equal protection.

Folks, the anti-Theists have been waging an incredible war. They have convinced the majority of people that Atheist Materialism is actually science, seared the conscious of the majority of America into allowing mothers to "choose" to kill their own children while some stand by and say, "Can't see it from my yard, the blood isn't on my hands," congressman can mock people of faith and call them the "whackos on the Christian right," and so on.

It's about to get ugly, and it's going to be sooner rather than later. Our government is supposed to be "we the people." Better make your vote count, and make your voices heard as best you can.

Blessings,
TheLayman
You are absolutely right. And you have done a great job in pointing out the real issue. And I agree about the hate speech stuff and it about to get ugly. But so many of us are apathetic.

[Praxeas]

This is the thing. There is no way to legislate conviction. Even if laws were passed that make preaching against homosexuality a sin, there is nothing stopping God from convicting someone of that sin. I think we are too stuck in a mindset of having to hear the preacher specifically name sin for him to be preaching against sin. There is nothing that says a preacher has to name certain sins as such. He can preach against sin, and let God do the convicting on what sin is in someone's life. There seems to be so much fear about this or that happening that I think people are losing sight of the fact that God always leaves himself a way of getting His message across.
That is not necessarily true. Consider that Cornelius still had to send for someone to tell him what he needed to do. We are the light to the world. Faith comes by HEARING. Judgement begins at the house of God. How can they hear unless someone is sent? One sows another waters but God gives the increase. Paul even mentioned how the Jews sought to prevent him from preaching the gospel so that some might be saved. The word of God convicts. If we don't have to name sins why does the bible? We can all just go by what we personally feel.

[Praxeas]

A very wise man once shared with me, that God never promised to send us a book to comfort us, and counsel us, to lead us, and to guide us into all truth. However, he did promise to send us something else to do those things, that being The Holy Spirit.

And yet, you Christians seem to place the Bible above all else.
wrong. He sent us Apostles and Prophets and Jesus prayed for all those that would believe on him through THEIR word. He DID promise. He sent His Apostles WITH His Word

[Rico]

That is not necessarily true. Consider that Cornelius still had to send for someone to tell him what he needed to do. We are the light to the world. Faith comes by HEARING. Judgement begins at the house of God. How can they hear unless someone is sent? One sows another waters but God gives the increase. Paul even mentioned how the Jews sought to prevent him from preaching the gospel so that some might be saved. The word of God convicts. If we don't have to name sins why does the bible? We can all just go by what we personally feel.

Prax, the point is that a preacher doesn't have to specifically name any sin in order to preach against sin. We're stuck in that mindset that says the preacher has to tell me what's wrong in my life. The preacher doesn't have to spell out what is sin for God to be able to convict someone of their sin. A preacher can preach a generalized message on sinning against God, and God can then do the convicting. No one is talking about not preaching the Gospel. The Gospel is the death, burial, and ressurection of Jesus, not the preacher telling you what specific areas you are falling short on.

[Praxeas]

Bro…this world doesn’t define words. ;) They will always have the same meaning regardless of what society embraces.
That is absolute rubbish. Yes this world DOES define words. Remember "gay"? Used to mean happy...not it means a homosexual by MOST people today. Ever year the word f@g? Used to refer to matches or logs for fire but now it refers to gays...come on, you aren't that naive to believe what you just told me about defining words? Cultures change and in the changing there often HAS to be a redefinition of words. Marriage refers to a MAN and a WOMAN but now it refers also to two men.

Again…nobody is willing to talk word one about unholy straight marriages where two divorcees are married who had divorced for reasons other than adultery. Those “marriages” are still eternally “adultery”. I know some are soft on it saying, “Well now…God forgives.” Yes, God forgives…but they will still answer for adultery and the Church was NEVER granted permission to recognize such adulterous relationships.
OMG...you did it again. Talk about red herrings. We HAVE talked a LOT about divorce and remarriage. Where were you? We CAN talk about it too. This is totally insane of you. The topic HERE is gay marriages. But start another topic and we will do it. We will be there.

They also were not allowed to marry whoever they wanted…especially if that person was white. ;)
Red Herring

The issue is does Government have the right to tell two private citizens of legal age they cannot marry?
Nope. Because EVERYONE already has the right to enter into a Marriage contract. Unless you redefine what Marriage is which it seems that is what you want to do along with the gay agenda. Gays already have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex like everyone else does.

Bro…marriage is a private contract…the state shouldn’t have a single say in it. The state doesn’t own marriage. Although that’s what we’ve been taught to believe.
Then please tell me what difference it makes to ANYONE if we pass a law that says no gay marriage. They can go down to their gay priest right now and "get married" and enter into a private contract. You see the problem you fail to realize is that these marriages are NOT private. They are public and on record with the state.

[Praxeas]

If a state performs wickedness, I believe that state will be judged by God. If the state places the choice in the hands of individuals…the individuals who choose such a thing will be judged by God.
Trying desperately to cut through all the unnecessary verbage I assume the answer was Yes to my question? Do I have that right?

Now...see here is the easy part. Many Christians might feel, and you are welcome to disagree obviously but that part is irrelevant, that by allowing gay marriages and allowing the gay agenda to be pushed on the public through the school systems will in fact bring the judgment of God especially when they could have done something about it but did nothing. Now sure you might disagree such an action would warrant the judgment of God but a lot of Christians feel otherwise. They see that judgment as only PART of a growing threat on our society and the church (see TheLaymans post)

[Praxeas]

I don’t advocate doing NOTHING. I advocate preaching the gospel and teaching the Bible. Politics is a distraction. Christians turned Rome upside down…and they didn’t do it through politics. They did it through PREACHING. .
EVERYTHING is or can be a distraction...and politics seems to be a particular favorite of yours judging from your posts. But there is no reason to assume that just because someone votes or is politically active that they will be distracting from preaching the gospel. And BTW We ARE preaching and teaching the bible. That is all irrelevant though to the points being made.

lastly....Christians turned Rome upside down eh? Rome FELL last time I checked. They were seeped in Immorality and political corruption. They were a nation of laws like us, but the Christians didn't have the same opportunity we do. And mind you it was that same Rome that put the Arians and Modalists to flight and codified Trinitarianism and created a vehicle ala the RCC to spread it everywhere.

[Praxeas]

Interesting how much time and effort some people put into preventing others from sinning (in their view). Why is that? Do they think those poor misguided people might make it to heaven, if we can only make them stop their sinful ways?

Do they also want laws passed against the ultimate sin -- rejecting Jesus?

Seriously. I don't get it.
Are you serious? If that were the case the ban would have been on sodomy. The ban would have been on any and ALL homosexual activity. It was NOT about legislating sin. You really don't have a clue Timmy what the issue is or was about

[Praxeas]

Prax, the point is that a preacher doesn't have to specifically name any sin in order to preach against sin. We're stuck in that mindset that says the preacher has to tell me what's wrong in my life. The preacher doesn't have to spell out what is sin for God to be able to convict someone of their sin. A preacher can preach a generalized message on sinning against God, and God can then do the convicting. No one is talking about not preaching the Gospel. The Gospel is the death, burial, and ressurection of Jesus, not the preacher telling you what specific areas you are falling short on.
A preacher does not have to specifically tell YOU what is wrong with your life but at the same time to expect a preacher to never teach a congregation or someone that wants to get right with God what sin is or is not is irresponsible IMO.

BTW this is off topic but I am reminded of it anyways since earlier the discussion of definition came up....

Many kids today are freely giving oral sex to their boy friends or girl friends. To them it is like a goodnight kiss and many rationalize that they are not having sex by doing so.

[Rico]

A preacher does not have to specifically tell YOU what is wrong with your life but at the same time to expect a preacher to never teach a congregation or someone that wants to get right with God what sin is or is not is irresponsible IMO.

BTW this is off topic but I am reminded of it anyways since earlier the discussion of definition came up....

Many kids today are freely giving oral sex to their boy friends or girl friends. To them it is like a goodnight kiss and many rationalize that they are not having sex by doing so.


Prax, let's keep things within the context in which they were presented, shall we? I did not say that I expect a preacher to NEVER specifically mention any sin. What I did say is that a law being passed against preaching against homosexuality would not affect God's ability to convict someone of that sin just because a preacher is prohibited from specifically preaching against it. Because of this, I don't see any reason for people to get in an uproar over things that are going on in the world. God will always have a way to get His message across, Bro. He is not bound by any law passed by man.

[Timmy]

Are you serious? If that were the case the ban would have been on sodomy. The ban would have been on any and ALL homosexual activity. It was NOT about legislating sin. You really don't have a clue Timmy what the issue is or was about

Oh, and I suppose they wouldn't outlaw sodomy, as well, if they could? Hey, the more control they have over people's private lives, the happier they are.

So. Exactly what horrible thing would happen if gays were to marry? What is this mysterious "attack" on the family I keep hearing about? How would allowing gays to marry each other and legally recognizing those marriages affect you or me? How does prohibiting it make the world a better place? Oh, it changes the definition of marriage! GASP! How horrible!

Actually, I think I do have a clue what this is about. This is about control. Power. Punishment. It's about showing those evil subhumans who's boss, in this society.

[Timmy]

Prax, let's keep things within the context in which they were presented, shall we? I did not say that I expect a preacher to NEVER specifically mention any sin. What I did say is that a law being passed against preaching against homosexuality would not affect God's ability to convict someone of that sin just because a preacher is prohibited from specifically preaching against it. Because of this, I don't see any reason for people to get in an uproar over things that are going on in the world. God will always have a way to get His message across, Bro. He is not bound by any law passed by man.

Rico, some people don't think God can do a good enough job of convicting of sin. Actually, He may not agree with some of "His people" on what things are sin and what things aren't! Imagine that!

[Praxeas]

Prax, let's keep things within the context in which they were presented, shall we? I did not say that I expect a preacher to NEVER specifically mention any sin. What I did say is that a law being passed against preaching against homosexuality would not affect God's ability to convict someone of that sin just because a preacher is prohibited from specifically preaching against it. Because of this, I don't see any reason for people to get in an uproar over things that are going on in the world. God will always have a way to get His message across, Bro. He is not bound by any law passed by man.
ok..I disagree though that we should not be concerned about our ability to preach against homosexuality by law because at some point it will affect us in our views when we speak them. I think you will probably agree with that

[Praxeas]

Oh, and I suppose they wouldn't outlaw sodomy, as well, if they could? Hey, the more control they have over people's private lives, the happier they are.

So. Exactly what horrible thing would happen if gays were to marry? What is this mysterious "attack" on the family I keep hearing about? How would allowing gays to marry each other and legally recognizing those marriages affect you or me? How does prohibiting it make the world a better place? Oh, it changes the definition of marriage! GASP! How horrible!

Actually, I think I do have a clue what this is about. This is about control. Power. Punishment. It's about showing those evil subhumans who's boss, in this society.
Once again I must remind Timmy that the issue is gay marriage, NOT being gay. There was never an initiative on the ballot trying to forbig gays from having gay sex. So Timmy you are just blowing smoke here.