Is the UPC a Den of Incest (Growth Within)?

[Jekyll]

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=465797&postcount=183

Before I left the UPC, I was rising in the ranks primarily because I had an influential pastor and could preach "fearful" obedience and standards messages!

The UPC, IMO, is an "incestuous" organization. What I mean by that is that it primarily multiplies from within and not without. :D



DISCLAIMER: This opinion is the opinion of MOW alone and does not reflect the opinions of the AFF staff, their families or friends and relatives.

What do you think?

[Brother Price]

I can agree. The UPCI seems only to grow by family, not by conversion.

[Ferd]

I am glad he left?

[Margies3]

I can't speak for all UPC churches because I don't know enough about any of them to say. But I can speak for the one UPC church that I grew up in in the beginning of my walk.

Back when I first started going there, we were adding people to the church all the time. Outsiders. People who had never even heard of Pentecost and were thrilled to be a part of this "new thing".

Then our pastor left to go to the mission field. (Please do not think I am saying he was wrong to go!!!! Absolutely NOT!! He was following God's call for his life!). After he left, this church had a pastor who would easily fit into the "abuser" category that I hear talked about on here, unfortunately. He was only there for a year but during that time the vast majority of the people left.

Since that time, this church has not added one single soul who came in from the world. They've had a few people come from other UPC churches. And most of those people eventually ended up going back to the the UPC churches they had started at.

Right now this church is running about 30-40 people on a good Sunday.

So what do I think? hmmmm. I think there might be some merit to what MOW has said. I'm not sure if it applies to EVERY UPC church, but it surely does to some.

On the other hand, I know churches from other denominations that are in the same condition. So it's not exclusively UPC.

[Hoovie]

Unfair charge I think.

In a ten year period, the UPC would certainly have a greater percentile of new converts than any of the older mainstream (non-Pentecostal) denominations. In fact many if not most denominations are shrinking in size.

[Sam]

I can't speak for all UPC churches because I don't know enough about any of them to say. But I can speak for the one UPC church that I grew up in in the beginning of my walk.

Back when I first started going there, we were adding people to the church all the time. Outsiders. People who had never even heard of Pentecost and were thrilled to be a part of this "new thing".

Then our pastor left to go to the mission field. (Please do not think I am saying he was wrong to go!!!! Absolutely NOT!! He was following God's call for his life!). After he left, this church had a pastor who would easily fit into the "abuser" category that I hear talked about on here, unfortunately. He was only there for a year but during that time the vast majority of the people left.

Since that time, this church has not added one single soul who came in from the world. They've had a few people come from other UPC churches. And most of those people eventually ended up going back to the the UPC churches they had started at.

Right now this church is running about 30-40 people on a good Sunday.

So what do I think? hmmmm. I think there might be some merit to what MOW has said. I'm not sure if it applies to EVERY UPC church, but it surely does to some.

On the other hand, I know churches from other denominations that are in the same condition. So it's not exclusively UPC.

I don't think we can use that same broad brush to paint all churches. Some churches actively pursue the lost and people come from all backgrounds, get saved, and become part of the church. Other churches become ingrown. Any officers are members of the pastor's family and are therefore not independent thinkers but just "yes-men." The Church is run like a family business or family cash cow and office of pastor is passed on down from father to son or perhaps to son-in-law. "Sinners" are not welcome but are browbeaten and shunned. Any "new" folks come from other Oneness churches or perhaps people from other denominations who "see the light."

I don't know about the organization as a whole or individual districts. I would imagine some districts are "good old boys" networks and any promotion to office would be based on nepotism and politics. I sure can't say this is the way the whole organization or all the districts are. My knowledge is very limited when it comes to religious politics.

[Blubayou]

I think it depends on your church and your pastor. I am concerned about the handing down from father to son ministerial postions within churches. It strikes me as kingdom building and I do not think it is healthy or God's plan for the church.

[vrblackwell]

It is a fact that the UPC has not grown within the USA very much over the last 10 to 20 years. However, there are churches that cannot be thrown into that category. The church i am attending in Springfield has people receiving the HG and being baptized every week. Wednesday night 12 were baptized in Jesus name. I have only been there since January and have been impressed.

I am sure there are many more that are growing. But the org as a whole has not been growing. That is why a new church growth campaign has been launched recently called global impact.

The fact is, the churches that are willing to change and step out of the box will see souls saved. I personally believe it starts by trying to stop growing churches and personal kingdoms and by trying instead to grow people.

For so long we have tried to bring people in and convert them to a culture instead of going out and leading them to a savior. JMHO

[Margies3]

I don't think we can use that same broad brush to paint all churches. Some churches actively pursue the lost and people come from all backgrounds, get saved, and become part of the church. Other churches become ingrown. Any officers are members of the pastor's family and are therefore not independent thinkers but just "yes-men." The Church is run like a family business or family cash cow and office of pastor is passed on down from father to son or perhaps to son-in-law. "Sinners" are not welcome but are browbeaten and shunned. Any "new" folks come from other Oneness churches or perhaps people from other denominations who "see the light."

I don't know about the organization as a whole or individual districts. I would imagine some districts are "good old boys" networks and any promotion to office would be based on nepotism and politics. I sure can't say this is the way the whole organization or all the districts are. My knowledge is very limited when it comes to religious politics.

I wholeheartedly agree, Sam. I don't think we can use that same broad brush to paint all churches within the UPC either. That was my point exactly. I'm sure that there are churches that really are self-contained and self-consumed. I'm not sure I like the term "incestuous". Don't know why, but it really makes me uncomfortable to use that term. But I do know that there are churches (like the one I came from) where they are very happy just being "us four and no more".

But again, I want to say this loud and clear - this is NOT only happening in the UPC. I know of many, many other churches from many, many other denominations that are in the same boat.

Frankly, sometimes I think that one reason the so-called "seeker friendly" churches grow like they do is because they started from the ground up. So there's no little clique already there to say to people, "if you don't measure up to our standards, you won't really want to stay here". No, I know that's not actually said out loud. But people feel it, believe me. I know that I feel it every time I visit my old church today.

[Hoovie]

It is a fact that the UPC has not grown within the USA very much over the last 10 to 20 years. However, there are churches that cannot be thrown into that category. The church i am attending in Springfield has people receiving the HG and being baptized every week. Wednesday night 12 were baptized in Jesus name. I have only been there since January and have been impressed.

I am sure there are many more that are growing. But the org as a whole has not been growing. That is why a new church growth campaign has been launched recently called global impact.

The fact is, the churches that are willing to change and step out of the box will see souls saved. I personally believe it starts by trying to stop growing churches and personal kingdoms and by trying instead to grow people.

For so long we have tried to bring people in and convert them to a culture instead of going out and leading them to a savior. JMHO


VB, your point is well taken, but still does not mean there isn't new blood in the organization. The activity through the back door is further evidence of this.


PS It's great to see you posting more!

[chosenbyone]

It is a fact that the UPC has not grown within the USA very much over the last 10 to 20 years. However, there are churches that cannot be thrown into that category. The church i am attending in Springfield has people receiving the HG and being baptized every week. Wednesday night 12 were baptized in Jesus name. I have only been there since January and have been impressed.

I am sure there are many more that are growing. But the org as a whole has not been growing. That is why a new church growth campaign has been launched recently called global impact.

The fact is, the churches that are willing to change and step out of the box will see souls saved. I personally believe it starts by trying to stop growing churches and personal kingdoms and by trying instead to grow people.

For so long we have tried to bring people in and convert them to a culture instead of going out and leading them to a savior. JMHO

Excellent post!

[vrblackwell]

VB, your point is well taken, but still does not mean there isn't new blood in the organization. The activity through the back door is further evidence of this.

PS It's great to see you posting more!

Its funny you said this. I was just getting a drink and thinking about this. There are many people being saved in our churches. What I have seen is that many will receive the HG and have trouble with the standards. Therefore, they find churches that believe in the infilling of the HG but do not have a strict standard and go to them. This happens a lot.

What I found in pastoring was that it was very hard for a women who grew up wearing and believing that there was such a thing as women's pants to be told that there is no such thing. Or to be told that they cannot cut their hair and so on.

I don't think sometimes that we who grew up in this belief really understand how much a typical woman must change to fit into a typical UPC church. We really don't understand how dramatic this can be to a women who has never lived this way.

Disclaimer" I am not trying to tear down nor build up any beliefs in this post, just stating what I have observed.

[Pressing-On]

Its funny you said this. I was just getting a drink and thinking about this. There are many people being saved in our churches. What I have seen is that many will receive the HG and have trouble with the standards. Therefore, they find churches that believe in the infilling of the HG but do not have a strict standard and go to them. This happens a lot.

What I found in pastoring was that it was very hard for a women who grew up wearing and believing that there was such a thing as women's pants to be told that there is no such thing. Or to be told that they cannot cut their hair and so on.

I don't think sometimes that we who grew up in this belief really understand how much a typical woman must change to fit into a typical UPC church. We really don't understand how dramatic this can be to a women who has never lived this way.

Disclaimer" I am not trying to tear down nor build up any beliefs in this post, just stating what I have observed.
My gosh, Verlon! So true. I got in the UPC when I was 26 years old. It has been a huge adjustment, to say the least. You hit that right on!

[Pressing-On]

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=465797&postcount=183



What do you think?

What do I think? I think that was the most ridiculous thing I've heard a grown man say. :D

[James Griffin]

VB, your point is well taken, but still does not mean there isn't new blood in the organization. The activity through the back door is further evidence of this.


PS It's great to see you posting more!

I found the timing of this interesting as well. I just got off the phone with a young minister and we were discussing the fact that no excels at evangelism like the Apostolics, and yet often no one does a worse job of discipling.

The churches which are growing have figured out how to do both. Personally I don't believe it's as attached to standards (either too strict or lack of) as many here seem to feel.

[Hoovie]

Its funny you said this. I was just getting a drink and thinking about this. There are many people being saved in our churches. What I have seen is that many will receive the HG and have trouble with the standards. Therefore, they find churches that believe in the infilling of the HG but do not have a strict standard and go to them. This happens a lot.

What I found in pastoring was that it was very hard for a women who grew up wearing and believing that there was such a thing as women's pants to be told that there is no such thing. Or to be told that they cannot cut their hair and so on.

I don't think sometimes that we who grew up in this belief really understand how much a typical woman must change to fit into a typical UPC church. We really don't understand how dramatic this can be to a women who has never lived this way.

Disclaimer" I am not trying to tear down nor build up any beliefs in this post, just stating what I have observed.


You can PM me about the drinking if you need support. :)

Yes, I too can see some have difficulty adapting to our standards on women's facial hair. TIC

Here is the one thing that gives me pause concerning your theory... If women are leaving in droves and can't adapt to standards etc., why is it that women outnumber the men 2-1 in most of our churches?

[Hoovie]

I found the timing of this interesting as well. I just got off the phone with a young minister and we were discussing the fact that no excels at evangelism like the Apostolics, and yet often no one does a worse job of discipling.

The churches which are growing have figured out how to do both. Personally I don't believe it's as attached to standards (either too strict of lack of) as many here seem to feel.

Now we are getting somewhere.... I feel it is at least in part due to a leader feeling he can or should micro-manage the details of everyones life. This may include standards, but it is a mindset rather than simply the level of conservativeness.

PS There are plenty of Liberal churches closing their doors all the time.

[vrblackwell]

You can PM me about the drinking if you need support. :)

Yes, I too can see some have difficulty adapting to our standards on women's facial hair. TIC

Here is the one thing that gives me pause concerning your theory... If women are leaving in droves and can't adapt to standards etc., why is it that women outnumber the men 2-1 in most of our churches?

I believe you will find that ratio in any church.

Could be due to the fact that women give births to more girls then boys. :nod

[SDG]

What does sharing common spiritual DNA do to the offspring?

[Hoovie]

I believe you will find that ratio in any church.

Could be due to the fact that women give births to more girls then boys. :nod

Uh, I can't really argue that one...

Scotch on the Rocks please.

[SDG]

I believe you will find that ratio in any church.

Could be due to the fact that women give births to more girls then boys. :nod

Is that accurate ...? Last time I took a bio class the probability of having a male or female is 50/50 ...

I think that what happens during the lifetime of males and females ... sickness, disease, life expectancy is the reason there is a larger ratio of women to men ...

[Hoovie]

What does sharing common spiritual DNA do to the offspring?

It quite simply means we all belong to HIM! :happydance

[OP_Carl]

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=465797&postcount=183
Before I left the UPC, I was rising in the ranks primarily because I had an influential pastor and could preach "fearful" obedience and standards messages!

The UPC, IMO, is an "incestuous" organization. What I mean by that is that it primarily multiplies from within and not without.


What do you think?

I think it is bleak and negative. It is, however, quite novel in its assertion that the UPC might be disintegrating. :reaction :beatdeadhorse :beatdeadhorse :beatdeadhorse :beatdeadhorse


:spit

You can PM me about the drinking if you need support. :)

Yes, I too can see some have difficulty adapting to our standards on women's facial hair. TIC

Here is the one thing that gives me pause concerning your theory... If women are leaving in droves and can't adapt to standards etc., why is it that women outnumber the men 2-1 in most of our churches?
A very penetrating question. Leave it to Brother Steve to drag out the big guns and blow the slow gators out of the water. A worldly woman may need to make some "adjustments" to become acclimated to the UPC, but a worldly man must give up a great deal, chiefly pride, to become acclimated to the UPC and the feminized church services offered by most.

[Pressing-On]

I think it is bleak and negative. It is, however, quite novel in its assertion that the UPC might be disintegrating. :reaction :beatdeadhorse :beatdeadhorse :beatdeadhorse :beatdeadhorse


A very penetrating question. Leave it to Brother Steve to drag out the big guns and blow the slow gators out of the water. A worldly woman may need to make some "adjustments" to become acclimated to the UPC, but a worldly man must give up a great deal, chiefly pride, to become acclimated to the UPC and the feminized church services offered by most.

Wow, how insightful!!! :thumbsup

[James Griffin]

What does sharing common spiritual DNA do to the offspring?

Perhaps this is what MOW meant, an inbreeding of spiritual DNA leading to retarded growth.

Without "new blood" there is no fresh perspective.

The challenge is perhaps in having an infusion of new blood without losing sight of the original vision of the house.

And to that unfortunately I am not sure there is a pat one-size-fits-all answer.

It is a constant balancing act to infuse new without betraying what should be immutable.

[SDG]

I think it is bleak and negative. It is, however, quite novel in its assertion that the UPC might be disintegrating. :reaction :beatdeadhorse :beatdeadhorse :beatdeadhorse :beatdeadhorse


A very penetrating question. Leave it to Brother Steve to drag out the big guns and blow the slow gators out of the water. A worldly woman may need to make some "adjustments" to become acclimated to the UPC, but a worldly man must give up a great deal, chiefly pride, to become acclimated to the UPC and the feminized church services offered by most.

Please explain how the UPC service is feminized?

Also ... I think the whole issue of holiness standards is a male pride issue at heart ... it's veiled chauvinism/sexism and is very much a tactic used to subjugate women in various ways.

[vrblackwell]

I think it is bleak and negative. It is, however, quite novel in its assertion that the UPC might be disintegrating. :reaction :beatdeadhorse :beatdeadhorse :beatdeadhorse :beatdeadhorse


:spit


A very penetrating question. Leave it to Brother Steve to drag out the big guns and blow the slow gators out of the water. A worldly woman may need to make some "adjustments" to become acclimated to the UPC, but a worldly man must give up a great deal, chiefly pride, to become acclimated to the UPC and the feminized church services offered by most.


I see you have read "Why Men Hate going to Church". good book.

[CC1]

I object to the title of the thread. It is not clear it is speaking of spiritual incest. It insinuates the UPC if full of sexual peversion.

I am sure that is not the intent of the threads author but that is the inference. I wish the thread title had been more descriptive of the actual subject.

The subject is an appropriate one. I have long contended that the UPC's tepid growth over the last generation has been due to most new members being either born into the org. or married into it. The actual rate of new converts doesn't even keep pace with the population growth each year.

[Hoovie]

Please explain how the UPC service is feminized?

Also ... I think the whole issue of holiness standards is a male pride issue at heart ... it's veiled chauvinism/sexism and is very much a tactic used to subjugate women in various ways.



I have heard this before too. Problem is most all conservative women I know are married to husbands that are at least a bit more liberal....

[Hoovie]

I think it is bleak and negative. It is, however, quite novel in its assertion that the UPC might be disintegrating. :reaction :beatdeadhorse :beatdeadhorse :beatdeadhorse :beatdeadhorse


:spit


A very penetrating question. Leave it to Brother Steve to drag out the big guns and blow the slow gators out of the water. A worldly woman may need to make some "adjustments" to become acclimated to the UPC, but a worldly man must give up a great deal, chiefly pride, to become acclimated to the UPC and the feminized church services offered by most.


I see you have read "Why Men Hate going to Church". good book.


Very good. Laying on my desk right now.

[SDG]

I object to the title of the thread. It is not clear it is speaking of spiritual incest. It insinuates the UPC if full of sexual peversion.

I am sure that is not the intent of the threads author but that is the inference. I wish the thread title had been more descriptive of the actual subject.

The subject is an appropriate one. I have long contended that the UPC's tepid growth over the last generation has been due to most new members being either born into the org. or married into it. The actual rate of new converts doesn't even keep pace with the population growth each year.

Then Destined to Double is code for a the org pushing a UPCI baby boom?

[TRFrance]

Its funny you said this. I was just getting a drink and thinking about this. There are many people being saved in our churches. What I have seen is that many will receive the HG and have trouble with the standards. Therefore, they find churches that believe in the infilling of the HG but do not have a strict standard and go to them. This happens a lot.

What I found in pastoring was that it was very hard for a women who grew up wearing and believing that there was such a thing as women's pants to be told that there is no such thing. Or to be told that they cannot cut their hair and so on.

I don't think sometimes that we who grew up in this belief really understand how much a typical woman must change to fit into a typical UPC church. We really don't understand how dramatic this can be to a women who has never lived this way.

Indeed. And many times, the new churches they end up choosing are not Oneness/Acts 2:38 churches.

[Pressing-On]

I have heard this before too. Problem is most all conservative women I know are married to husbands that are at least a bit more liberal....

Mine isn't. He was raised Church of God and they had the same standards as the UPC, he tells me.

[vrblackwell]

I object to the title of the thread. It is not clear it is speaking of spiritual incest. It insinuates the UPC if full of sexual peversion.I am sure that is not the intent of the threads author but that is the inference. I wish the thread title had been more descriptive of the actual subject.

The subject is an appropriate one. I have long contended that the UPC's tepid growth over the last generation has been due to most new members being either born into the org. or married into it. The actual rate of new converts doesn't even keep pace with the population growth each year.

I agree very much with you here.

[Hoovie]

Then Destined to Double is code for a the org pushing a UPCI baby boom?

I have the burden and am doing all I can.

[SDG]

I have the burden and am doing all I can.

Now that thar was funny ...

The workers are few ...

[ManOfWord]

What does sharing common spiritual DNA do to the offspring?

Can you say,



BILLY BOB

[SDG]

Can you say,



BILLY BOB




Ever been to Appalachia?

[Joie]

What do I think? I think that was the most ridiculous thing I've heard a grown man say. :D

This is an outrageous thread. Incest, did you say??? Unlawful incest? Incest is not promoting from within... it is far worse.
The UPC may be may be many things but intentional incest is Not one of them. Seems to me in years past the kids were meeting friends at camp that many end up married who had nothing to do w/ their own home church.

No, I did not grow up UPC and do not attend a UPC church

....... I must say the kindest, sweetest, best folks I have ever met are in or came out of the UPC.

[James Griffin]

Perhaps this is what MOW meant, an inbreeding of spiritual DNA leading to retarded growth.

Without "new blood" there is no fresh perspective.

The challenge is perhaps in having an infusion of new blood without losing sight of the original vision of the house.

And to that unfortunately I am not sure there is a pat one-size-fits-all answer.

It is a constant balancing act to infuse new without betraying what should be immutable.

BUMP for Dan, and the horse's mouth MOW. LOL

[chosenbyone]

Please explain how the UPC service is feminized?

Also ... I think the whole issue of holiness standards is a male pride issue at heart ... it's veiled chauvinism/sexism and is very much a tactic used to subjugate women in various ways.

Do you really feel that way, DA? Do you feel that your mother was the victim of chauvinism/sexism when she adhered to "holiness standards"?

BTW, your comments have not been edifying at all lately.

[Rhoni]

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Griffin http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/forum/NewBlueDefault/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=465879#post465879)
Perhaps this is what MOW meant, an inbreeding of spiritual DNA leading to retarded growth.

Without "new blood" there is no fresh perspective.

The challenge is perhaps in having an infusion of new blood without losing sight of the original vision of the house.

And to that unfortunately I am not sure there is a pat one-size-fits-all answer.

It is a constant balancing act to infuse new without betraying what should be immutable.


Excellent interpretation!

[chosenbyone]

Mine isn't. He was raised Church of God and they had the same standards as the UPC, he tells me.

Was he Church of God Cleveland, TN (headquarters)?

[Hoovie]

This is an outrageous thread. Incest, did you say??? Unlawful incest? Incest is not promoting from within... it is far worse.
The UPC may be may be many things but intentional incest is Not one of them. Seems to me in years past the kids were meeting friends at camp that many end up married who had nothing to do w/ their own home church.

No, I did not grow up UPC and do not attend a UPC church

....... I must say the kindest, sweetest, best folks I have ever met are in or came out of the UPC.

Joie, MOW can set the record straight, but I think there was a play on words involved - not physical sexual incest.

[SDG]

Do you really feel that way, DA? Did you feel that your mother was the victim of chauvinism/sexism when she adhered to "holiness standards"?

BTW, your comments have not been edifying at all lately.


The idea of systemic sexism is pervasive even in our society ... CBO if your eyes are open ... We are all victims.

My mother left the Apostolic Assembly 2 years after her conversion because it was even more blatantly/overtly sexist.

The roots of the ultracon holiness movement is rooted in the deep South ... and one would be remissed if one cannot see that often women are subjugated in many of these churches to great extents ... and one way to manipulate and keep women in their place is to make them the trophies of dress holiness.

[Rhoni]

The idea of systemic sexism is pervasive even in our society ... CBO if your eyes are open ... We are all victims.

My mother left the Apostolic Assembly 2 years after her conversion because it was even more blatantly/overtly sexist.

The roots of the ultracon holiness movement is rooted in the deep South ... and one would be remissed if one cannot see that often women are subjugated in many of these churches to great extents ... and one way to manipulate and keep women in their place is to make them the trophies of dress holiness.

Wow..you've said a mouthfull there Bro.:woot

[James Griffin]

Please explain how the UPC service is feminized?

A.

Dan I will loan you my copy of "Why Men Hate Going to Church" someone else mentioned it here.

It's the premise of why there are more men than women in western churches. Ironically enough though the ratio of men to women is actually closer in pentecostal churches than "mainstream" though.


But even among ethics lines there are differences. Hispanics have some of the closest ratios and African Americans some of the greatest disparities.

I don't agree with all of the author's conclusions but it makes an interesting read.

Will see about bringing it next Sunday if you think you would be interested.

[SDG]

Just recently someone commented to me that at a UPCI preachers forum ... most of the preachers there see no problem w/ men wearing shorts .... a sign that things are changing ...

but ask those same men if it's okay for women to wear shorts ... or about length of skirts and you will get a whole different perspective ...

Holiness has been preached by many of these men as women being the seductress who must be covered ...

Most holiness dress issues are centered around women while men get a "free" pass looking like the rest of the general population

[Hoovie]

The idea of systemic sexism is pervasive even in our society ... CBO if your eyes are open ... We are all victims.

My mother left the Apostolic Assembly 2 years after her conversion because it was even more blatantly/overtly sexist.

The roots of the ultracon holiness movement is rooted in the deep South ... and one would be remissed if one cannot see that often women are subjugated in many of these churches to great extents ... and one way to manipulate and keep women in their place is to make them the trophies of dress holiness.

I see how this fits into your current understanding, but as I said, it does not seem to make sense in my own real-life connections. Most conservative women I know are married to husbands that are at least a bit more liberal.

The men that I know who are manipulating and subjugating are mostly NON-Christian.

[Rhoni]

Just recently someone commented to me that at a UPCI preachers forum ... most of the preachers there see no problem w/ men wearing shorts .... a sign that things are changing ...

but ask those same men if it's okay for women to wear shorts ... or about length of skirts and you will get a whole different perspective ...

Holiness has been preached by many of these men as women being the seductress who must be covered ...

Most holiness dress issues are centered around women while men get a "free" pass looking like the rest of the general population

AMEN! This is so true.:highfive

[pelathais]

It is a fact that the UPC has not grown within the USA very much over the last 10 to 20 years. However, there are churches that cannot be thrown into that category. The church i am attending in Springfield has people receiving the HG and being baptized every week. Wednesday night 12 were baptized in Jesus name. I have only been there since January and have been impressed.

I am sure there are many more that are growing. But the org as a whole has not been growing. That is why a new church growth campaign has been launched recently called global impact.

The fact is, the churches that are willing to change and step out of the box will see souls saved. I personally believe it starts by trying to stop growing churches and personal kingdoms and by trying instead to grow people.

For so long we have tried to bring people in and convert them to a culture instead of going out and leading them to a savior. JMHO
I agree with that "humble opinion." We really need tp focus more on the "Savior" and less on "the culture" (that is, "OUR culture").

[TRFrance]

Joie, MOW can set the record straight, but I think there was a play on words involved - not physical sexual incest.

Indeed.
But I still think it was an unfortunate (and unnecessarily inflammatory) choice of words.

[SDG]

I understand how this fits into your current understanding but as I said it does not seem to make sense in my real-life connections. Most conservative women I know are married to husbands that are at least a bit more liberal.

The men that I know who are manipulating and subjugating are mostly NON-Christian.

Sexism is still a societal problem ...

but those who idolize Norman Rockwell paintings of what life and women should be ... are theologizing a doctrine that is centered around women being the trophies of God's holiness while little effort is expended on males living right or looking the part.

And the question is why ??? Where is this inordinate focus rooted?

[James Griffin]

The idea of systemic sexism is pervasive even in our society ... CBO if your eyes are open ... We are all victims.

My mother left the Apostolic Assembly 2 years after her conversion because it was even more blatantly/overtly sexist.

The roots of the ultracon holiness movement is rooted in the deep South ... and one would be remissed if one cannot see that often women are subjugated in many of these churches to great extents ... and one way to manipulate and keep women in their place is to make them the trophies of dress holiness.

As one who has been in or around southern holiness for nearly five decades I really cannot see this.

Women, as a culture, have made much more dramatic changes in their fashion than have men over the last 50-60 years. In an attempt to maintain the status quo of a 1950 Norman Rockwell looking family yes the onus is therefore greater on the female.

So yes in that sense it is harder on the women. But I have not seen any "conspiracy to manipulate" or "keep women in their place" by use of "standards."

[SDG]

As one who has been in or around southern holiness for nearly five decades I really cannot see this.

Women, as a culture, have made much more dramatic changes in their fashion than have men over the last 50-60 years. In an attempt to maintain the status quo of a 1950 Norman Rockwell looking family yes the onus is therefore greater on the female.

So yes in that sense it is harder on the women. But I have not seen any "conspiracy to manipulate" or "keep women in their place" by use of "standards."

Who called it a conspiracy?

There are some things that manifest themselves from our subconscience and/or world view.

[pelathais]

The idea of systemic sexism is pervasive even in our society ... CBO if your eyes are open ... We are all victims.

My mother left the Apostolic Assembly 2 years after her conversion because it was even more blatantly/overtly sexist.

The roots of the ultracon holiness movement is rooted in the deep South ... and one would be remissed if one cannot see that often women are subjugated in many of these churches to great extents ... and one way to manipulate and keep women in their place is to make them the trophies of dress holiness.
In the past I have actually been made to feel uncomfortable by some pastors who wanted to "show off" the ladies in his church. The preacher would get so wound up and "tickled" by all the "holiness" of the women that it made me cringe. So much saccharine and corn syrup.

And though the women were dressed "modestly," they were still being objectified in a manner consistent with a swimsuit competition.

Oh... and I can see Jekyll's point in saying that the UPC is "a den of incest" but I think that he is being overly harsh and deliberately using loaded words to try and create a scandal here. Chill, Jekyll! Not all holiness preaching is bad!

[SDG]

In the past I have actually been made to feel uncomfortable by some pastors who wanted to "show off" the ladies in his church. The preacher would get so wound up and "tickled" by all the "holiness" of the women that it made me cringe. So much saccharine and corn syrup.

And though the women were dressed "modestly," they were still be objectified in a manner consistent with a swimsuit competition.

A twisted form of pageantry that has even become manifest at General Conferences

[Hoovie]

In the past I have actually been made to feel uncomfortable by some pastors who wanted to "show off" the ladies in his church. The preacher would get so wound up and "tickled" by all the "holiness" of the women that it made me cringe. So much saccharine and corn syrup.

And though the women were dressed "modestly," they were still be objectified in a manner consistent with a swimsuit competition.

Now that is something to digest.

[James Griffin]

Who called it a conspiracy?

There are some things that manifest themselves from our subconscience and/or world view.

I agree whole heartedly the burden placed on women to keep with the ideal of "holiness" most often presented as standards is greater that than on the men.

But I would still respectfully maintain that is because women's fashions, and what is "acceptable" to the norms of society have changed much more radically for women than for men in the same period of time.

That is the source of conflict more than any attempt to suppress the women.

[ManOfWord]

Perhaps this is what MOW meant, an inbreeding of spiritual DNA leading to retarded growth.

Without "new blood" there is no fresh perspective.

The challenge is perhaps in having an infusion of new blood without losing sight of the original vision of the house.

And to that unfortunately I am not sure there is a pat one-size-fits-all answer.

It is a constant balancing act to infuse new without betraying what should be immutable.

Exactly what I meant! Thank Griff!!! :D

[SDG]

Young ladies will be going bonkers this summer as they prepare and pack their suitcases for the pageants at Youth Camps around the nation while still making sure they keep up w/ the PK's daughters and conform to the ever watchful of their daddys.

[Mrs. LPW]

As one who has been in or around southern holiness for nearly five decades I really cannot see this.

Women, as a culture, have made much more dramatic changes in their fashion than have men over the last 50-60 years. In an attempt to maintain the status quo of a 1950 Norman Rockwell looking family yes the onus is therefore greater on the female.

So yes in that sense it is harder on the women. But I have not seen any "conspiracy to manipulate" or "keep women in their place" by use of "standards."

True.


Dan, what is your opinion of the many other Christians in North America who do not have any of the outward stuff, but fully understand that Man being created first was God's idea...

I think the freedom's society has given women are great... I firmly believe Jesus was the first women's liberater... I don't believe when he created Man and Woman that he intended for Man to Lord over the Woman and keep her under his feet.

STILL, It might serve us well to look around at society now... the children who are being parented by school systems...
I fear sometimes Christians forget that the creator knew the way it would work the best... Women aren't meant to be chattel, nor are they meant to be men.

[ManOfWord]

Indeed.
But I still think it was an unfortunate (and unnecessarily inflammatory) choice of words.

If the quote was read in the context of the actual thread it was found in, it was neither unfortunate nor inflammatory. :D

[SDG]

True.


Dan, what is your opinion of the many other Christians in North America who do not have any of the outward stuff, but fully understand that Man being created first was God's idea...

I think the freedom's society has given women are great... I firmly believe Jesus was the first women's liberater... I don't believe when he created Man and Woman that he intended for Man to Lord over the Woman and keep her under his feet.

STILL, It might serve us well to look around at society now... the children who are being parented by school systems...
I fear sometimes Christians forget that the creator knew the way it would work the best... Women aren't meant to be chattel, nor are they meant to be men.

No one is more grateful for this reality than I ...

[ManOfWord]

Young ladies will be going bonkers this summer as they prepare and pack their suitcases for the pageants at Youth Camps around the nation while still making sure they keep up w/ the PK's daughters and conform to the ever watchful of their daddys.

I am SO thankful I don't have daughters!!!!



I'll just wait for the grand-daughters!!! :D Hope I'm around long enough for that.

[SDG]

Well I'm glad Rhoni agrees w/ me on this thread ...

but we all know she's a feminazi.

[Mrs. LPW]

If the quote was read in the context of the actual thread it was found in, it was neither unfortunate nor inflammatory. :D

I think the inbreeding, no fresh blood, can happen in any org.

[ManOfWord]

I think the inbreeding, no fresh blood, can happen in any org.

Absolutely true! :D

[pelathais]

I am SO thankful I don't have daughters!!!!



I'll just wait for the grand-daughters!!! :D Hope I'm around long enough for that.
I prayed for nothing but boys. I'll admit to that here anonymously. But my baby girl has been a light for me. She has a strength and firm determination in her heart that gives me a great feeling when I think about her. And she isn't overly swayed by fashions and trends.

[Mrs. LPW]

Young ladies will be going bonkers this summer as they prepare and pack their suitcases for the pageants at Youth Camps around the nation while still making sure they keep up w/ the PK's daughters and conform to the ever watchful of their daddys.

I'm thankful I had the watching eyes of my dad!

[ManOfWord]

I prayed for nothing but boys. I'll admit to that here anonymously. But my baby girl has been a light for me. She has a strength and firm determination in her heart that gives me a great feeling when I think about her. And she isn't overly swayed by fashions and trends.

I don't think I have enough ammunition to raise girls! My oldest son, who just got out of the Army said that if he had a daughter, he would just be sure that he was cleaning his guns when her suitor came to pick her up! :D

[Praxeas]

I can agree. The UPCI seems only to grow by family, not by conversion.

That's absurd. I don't know about UPCs you were in but the UPCs around here are growing with new converts, not new infants of already established families.

You guys need to think more before spitting the first thing that pops into your head...."seems only to grow by family, not by conversion" good grief

[Mrs. LPW]

That's absurd. I don't know about UPCs you were in but the UPCs around here are growing with new converts, not new infants of already established families.

You guys need to think more before spitting the first thing that pops into your head...."seems only to grow by family, not by conversion" good grief

Indeed!

[SDG]

I'm thankful I had the watching eyes of my dad!

I watch my daughter also ... I am bothered when another man tells me that she shouldn't have a slit on her skirt ... or that it might be too high because he can see her knees or that it might be too tight ...

or maybe she's not saved ...

[Mrs. LPW]

I watch my daughter also ... I am bothered when another man tells me that her she shouldn't have a slit on her skirt ... or that it might be too high because he can see her knees or that it might be too tight ...

I doubt anyone ever tells you or your daughter that. :)

I know what you are saying though, and it's always up to the Father how his daughters are raised... my pastors never tried to raise me, my parents did.

[OP_Carl]

This is an outrageous thread. Incest, did you say??? Unlawful incest? Incest is not promoting from within... it is far worse.
The UPC may be may be many things but intentional incest is Not one of them. Seems to me in years past the kids were meeting friends at camp that many end up married who had nothing to do w/ their own home church.

No, I did not grow up UPC and do not attend a UPC church

....... I must say the kindest, sweetest, best folks I have ever met are in or came out of the UPC.

I don't think anybody has suggested that it's intentional. It's just that it is reactionary, and comes part and parcel with the protectionist, nepotistic fiefdom mindset. Ummmmmm, the alleged protectionist, nepotistic fiefdom mindset, that is . . .

Basically what they are saying is that fresh ideas, fresh methods, and fresh faces seldom debut in churches that have the spirit of "us four, no more."

But it's all just a guess, anyhow. I think the perception of percentage of churches pastored by the controlling, overbearing lord over God's heritage type is skewed by the propensity of those offended to frequently and widely share their personal anecdotes.

[SDG]

I doubt anyone ever tells you or your daughter that. :)

I know what you are saying though, and it's always up to the Father how his daughters are raised... my pastors never tried to raise me, my parents did.

Not if they want to hear me rage or rant....:blah :happydance

[OP_Carl]

Then Destined to Double is code for a the org pushing a UPCI baby boom?I have the burden and am doing all I can.
I'm pulling for you, bro!
:family :family :family :family
:bigbaby

[Hoovie]

That's absurd. I don't know about UPCs you were in but the UPCs around here are growing with new converts, not new infants of already established families.

You guys need to think more before spitting the first thing that pops into your head...."seems only to grow by family, not by conversion" good grief

Of course that is true - so much so that I have been critical of it!

I, of course don't critisize the conversions - just those who think having families is rightfully forfeited for church family.

[OP_Carl]

Just recently someone commented to me that at a UPCI preachers forum ... most of the preachers there see no problem w/ men wearing shorts .... a sign that things are changing ...

but ask those same men if it's okay for women to wear shorts ... or about length of skirts and you will get a whole different perspective ...

Holiness has been preached by many of these men as women being the seductress who must be covered ...

Most holiness dress issues are centered around women while men get a "free" pass looking like the rest of the general population
AMEN! This is so true.:highfive

It's good thing you don't really have an axe to grind . . . . because folks sure might get the wrong impression from this post . . . :rolleyes2

I disagree about looking like the general population. I see a paradigm shift where Christian men are easily discernable amongst the backdrop of the ocean of tattoos and piercings prevalent today. Not to mention the mop tops and variety of goofy arrangements of facial hair. A clean shaven face or a plain, standard beard stand out. Not to mention that I'm often wearing long sleeves when others are wearing short sleeves, and I'm still wearing long pants and a shirt of some sort when others are wearing nothing but shorts.

Looks like Rhoni is in your cheering section, though. Whoo hoo! Go Rhoni! :cheer:cheer:cheer:girlyluv

[OP_Carl]

Sexism is still a societal problem ...

but those who idolize Norman Rockwell paintings of what life and women should be ... are theologizing a doctrine that is centered around women being the trophies of God's holiness while little effort is expended on males living right or looking the part.

And the question is why ??? Where is this inordinate focus rooted?

Quit being so coy. Tell us WHY you think it is?

[Praxeas]

Of course that is true - so much so that I have been critical of it!

I, of course don't critisize the conversions - just those who think having families is rightfully forfeited for church family.
I'd love to comment....uh...can you redo this in english? :-)

Seriously Im not sure what you were trying to say bro. Can you rephrase it? What is true? Critical of what?

[OP_Carl]

I agree whole heartedly the burden placed on women to keep with the ideal of "holiness" most often presented as standards is greater that than on the men.

But I would still respectfully maintain that is because women's fashions, and what is "acceptable" to the norms of society have changed much more radically for women than for men in the same period of time.

That is the source of conflict more than any attempt to suppress the women.

I think you're on to something here. Women have really been pushing the envelope ever since the eruption of the feminist movement in the '60s. Women at large have been dragged slightly in the direction of the radicalized fringe, because the fringe sets the dialoge and tugs on the mainstream. Men have largely been set adrift during this time, some have learned how to (cynically) benefit from the new, liberated version of females, but most have been victims of the new paradigms in family law. In short, women have further to travel to come home to a biblical worldview for a woman's calling. Most women today have an exceedingly difficult time extracting themselves from the feminism because it has so diffused into our culture.

[OP_Carl]

True.


Dan, what is your opinion of the many other Christians in North America who do not have any of the outward stuff, but fully understand that Man being created first was God's idea...

I think the freedom's society has given women are great... I firmly believe Jesus was the first women's liberater... I don't believe when he created Man and Woman that he intended for Man to Lord over the Woman and keep her under his feet.

STILL, It might serve us well to look around at society now... the children who are being parented by school systems...
I fear sometimes Christians forget that the creator knew the way it would work the best... Women aren't meant to be chattel, nor are they meant to be men.

Brevity, thy name is Mrs. LPW. Excellent post! You have succinctly summarized what my previous ramblings were attempting to convey. :thumbsup

[Hoovie]

That's absurd. I don't know about UPCs you were in but the UPCs around here are growing with new converts, not new infants of already established families.

You guys need to think more before spitting the first thing that pops into your head...."seems only to grow by family, not by conversion" good grief

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover
Of course that is true - so much so that I have been critical of it!

I, of course don't critisize the conversions - just those who think having families is rightfully forfeited for church family.

I'd love to comment....uh...can you redo this in english? :-)

Seriously Im not sure what you were trying to say bro. Can you rephrase it? What is true? Critical of what?

LOL! Sorry.

It is very true that there are new converts coming in. The numbers of new infants are actually quite low - that is something so obvious that I have actually made an issue of it in the past.

[OP_Carl]

LOL! Sorry.

It is very true that there are new converts coming in. The numbers of new infants are actually quite low - that is something so obvious that I have actually made an issue of it in the past.

I detect a story in here somewhere! :biggrin

I can certainly see how you might describe the circumstance, of attempting to convince a group of women of breeding age that they all ought to have more children, as an "issue." :preach :ranting :ranting :ranting :ranting :ranting :uhoh :smack :bolt

[mizpeh]

Can you say,



BILLY BOB


WOW!!!!!

Can you say, WOW!!

[Hoovie]

I detect a story in here somewhere! :biggrin

I can certainly see how you might describe the circumstance, of attempting to convince a group of women of breeding age that they all ought to have more children, as an "issue." :preach :ranting :ranting :ranting :ranting :ranting :uhoh :smack :bolt

Not really. I just think big families are a good thing. Good for everyone - including the church.

I am not polygamous, or chauvanistic.:bliss

[Praxeas]

LOL! Sorry.

It is very true that there are new converts coming in. The numbers of new infants are actually quite low - that is something so obvious that I have actually made an issue of it in the past.
thanks for clarifying :-)

[Cindy]

Is that accurate ...? Last time I took a bio class the probability of having a male or female is 50/50 ...

I think that what happens during the lifetime of males and females ... sickness, disease, life expectancy is the reason there is a larger ratio of women to men ...

Males determine the sex of the offspring, women are just the conduit by which they arrive.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I don't know all about this stuff,while I personally am not UPCI,I love the brethren in it,I'm just trying to deal with life on a day to day to basis.

[Cindy]

This is an outrageous thread. Incest, did you say??? Unlawful incest? Incest is not promoting from within... it is far worse.
The UPC may be may be many things but intentional incest is Not one of them. Seems to me in years past the kids were meeting friends at camp that many end up married who had nothing to do w/ their own home church.

No, I did not grow up UPC and do not attend a UPC church

....... I must say the kindest, sweetest, best folks I have ever met are in or came out of the UPC.

Aww, you are a darling girl, and you are right on! You are a precious saint of God and have always had the sweet spirit of Jesus in you.
Luckily the one and only time I attended youth camp I was too young for marriage............:toofunny
But we did stop at a church in Mississippi once on vacation visiting relatives and I did meet a young man, but then Viet Nam happened, but I always remember that time of my life with great joy and sadness.

[Cindy]

I have the burden and am doing all I can.

Do tell, got that cradle ready?

:happydance

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW View Post
...
Man being created first was God's idea...

------------------------

Some believe that man being created first was like a practice run.
JHVH looked at His new creation and said to Himself, "I can do better than that" and created a woman.

[OP_Carl]

Not really. I just think big families are a good thing. Good for everyone - including the church. In many cases they are good only in the church.

I am not polygamous, or chauvanistic.:bliss
I was not implying or inferring either. What I got out of it was that you had a brief period during which you were evangelistic about large families. 99.9% of the women I have ever spoken to, no matter their religious affiliation, are rabidly defensive about their birth control. Even if they consider themselves "surrendered to God's will" in every other area of their lives. If you tell them they should have more babies, they are ready to take up arms and stage a one-woman shouting mob "civil rights" protest in the style of the best of the radical women's lib and planned parenthood activists.

So I can imagine an intense moment or two when you attempted to convince a crowd of ladies to consider this, and they attempted to convince you to burn yourself at the stake.

[Cindy]

In many cases they are good only in the church.


I was not implying or inferring either. What I got out of it was that you had a brief period during which you were evangelistic about large families. 99.9% of the women I have ever spoken to, no matter their religious affiliation, are rabidly defensive about their birth control. Even if they consider themselves "surrendered to God's will" in every other area of their lives. If you tell them they should have more babies, they are ready to take up arms and stage a one-woman shouting mob "civil rights" protest in the style of the best of the radical women's lib and planned parenthood activists.

So I can imagine an intense moment or two when you attempted to convince a crowd of ladies to consider this, and they attempted to convince you to burn yourself at the stake.

As a woman that birthed 9 babies I will tell any man that wants a LARGE family, DO IT YOUR SELF!!!!!!!!

:reaction :drama :toofunny

[Michael Phelps]

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=465797&postcount=183



What do you think?

I think that a lot of the maladies that we ascribe to the UPCI exist in most organizations - religious or not.

One of the things we've been discussing within my organization is how to bring in new people with new ideas. What we're doing, we've been doing for years, and we realize that there is a certain amount of "incest" as it's been referred to here, in our ranks, as well.

But, only as it pertains to our thought processes - we use the old "But, we've ALWAYS done it this way" mantra way too often.

So, every organization needs new blood to stay vibrant and healthy. Some of the new blood will bring great ideas for change.

However, whatever the change may be, it can't alter our core value and mission, or it's not a good change.

There are always new methods out there to accomplish our main purpose more effectively, but wisdom is required to understand whether this change will help us "do what we do" better, or actually change what we do.

In summary, if we never bring in outsiders with fresh ideas, we'll stagnate and become relics........but, all new ideas are not good ideas.

Just some ramblings on a Sunday morning......

[Cindy]

I think that a lot of the maladies that we ascribe to the UPCI exist in most organizations - religious or not.

One of the things we've been discussing within my organization is how to bring in new people with new ideas. What we're doing, we've been doing for years, and we realize that there is a certain amount of "incest" as it's been referred to here, in our ranks, as well.

But, only as it pertains to our thought processes - we use the old "But, we've ALWAYS done it this way" mantra way too often.

So, every organization needs new blood to stay vibrant and healthy. Some of the new blood will bring great ideas for change.

However, whatever the change may be, it can't alter our core value and mission, or it's not a good change.

There are always new methods out there to accomplish our main purpose more effectively, but wisdom is required to understand whether this change will help us "do what we do" better, or actually change what we do.

In summary, if we never bring in outsiders with fresh ideas, we'll stagnate and become relics........but, all new ideas are not good ideas.

Just some ramblings on a Sunday morning......

Yeah, what he said.

[Rhoni]

I think that a lot of the maladies that we ascribe to the UPCI exist in most organizations - religious or not.

One of the things we've been discussing within my organization is how to bring in new people with new ideas. What we're doing, we've been doing for years, and we realize that there is a certain amount of "incest" as it's been referred to here, in our ranks, as well.

But, only as it pertains to our thought processes - we use the old "But, we've ALWAYS done it this way" mantra way too often.

So, every organization needs new blood to stay vibrant and healthy. Some of the new blood will bring great ideas for change.

However, whatever the change may be, it can't alter our core value and mission, or it's not a good change.

There are always new methods out there to accomplish our main purpose more effectively, but wisdom is required to understand whether this change will help us "do what we do" better, or actually change what we do.

In summary, if we never bring in outsiders with fresh ideas, we'll stagnate and become relics........but, all new ideas are not good ideas.

Just some ramblings on a Sunday morning......

Bro Phelps,


There is wisdom and truth in this post. Thank-you for calling us to broaden our horizons with God's wisdom and understanding.

Blessigns, Rhoni

[Brother Price]

Anything that does not reproduce and evolve will die. The UPCI started out well, as a group to fellowship and encourage growth and evangelism. But, when the spirit of religion came in and words like "whole truth" were spread about, pride came in and the spiritual inbreeding began. Suddenly, preterists were kicked out, PCIers were not welcomed, and no one could be part of two orgs. Religion became god and Christ became a byword to some of them in leadership. The individual ministers were restrained in what they could and could not do.

But, the winds are blowing, and souls are seeing light outside the UPCI, that others are saved and living a godly life.

[OP_Carl]

As a woman that birthed 9 babies I will tell any man that wants a LARGE family, DO IT YOUR SELF!!!!!!!!

:reaction :drama :toofunny

THERE . . . . . . . . YOU . . . . . . . . . . GO.

:toofunny :killinme


Stand back boys, don't let her spray any spit on you! :blah :ranting :grumpy

:happydance

[jediwill83]

the danger with spiritual inbreeding is that you lose the need for the milk because you get the feeling that you are so spiritually advanced that you dont need it. the preaching is formatted to 5th or 6th generations looking for that new DEEPER understanding but on the same token we preach a gospel that has lost its simplicity. we seek only for the meat now not needing the milk and in doing so lost our relevence to a dying world.

[OP_Carl]

Bro Phelps,


There is wisdom and truth in this post. Thank-you for calling us to broaden our horizons with God's wisdom and understanding.

Blessigns, Rhoni

You are right. Bro Phelps is showing signs of wisdom, signs of truth, and signs of blessings. Or blessigns.

You have cleverly crafted a new and wondrous and fitting word.

Does your genius know no bounds? :yourock

:thumbsup

:winkgrin

:D

[OP_Carl]

the danger with spiritual inbreeding is that you lose the need for the milk because you get the feeling that you are so spiritually advanced that you dont need it. the preaching is formatted to 5th or 6th generations looking for that new DEEPER understanding but on the same token we preach a gospel that has lost its simplicity. we seek only for the meat now not needing the milk and in doing so lost our relevence to a dying world.

That can be a two-edged sword. Churches that preach the same sermon, over and over and over again every Sunday for months or even years, give new meaning to the phrase "the wearing out of the saints." :blink

[Michael Phelps]

That can be a two-edged sword. Churches that preach the same sermon, over and over and over again every Sunday for months or even years, give new meaning to the phrase "the wearing out of the saints." :blink

Well said.

If the church is to be effective, in my opinion, it should be set up like a school.

There is kindergarten for the beginners, and then progressive stages of learning and development all the way thru college.

Then, the college graduates begin to teach.

And the cycle goes on.

This is one area of shortcoming that I've seen in many of our churches - the lack of training.

In many churches, the only instruction is given from the pulpit, and when you have such a diverse group, it's hard to address the needs of everyone in the pew.

I know that some will say that the anointing will cause the preached word to speak to everyone in a different way, and I believe that, but I also believe that it's a strong scriptural edict to have "teaching" in our churches, not just "preaching".

People perish not only from lack of preaching, but from lack of knowledge.

[CC1]

Mine isn't. He was raised Church of God and they had the same standards as the UPC, he tells me.

If this is the case then;

1. Your husband must have been a member of one of the small offshoots of the major Church of God org's since the COG Cleveland TN has for the most part mirrored the AOG for the last 30+ years regarding so called "standards"

or

2. Your husband must be older than dirt!!!!

:happydance

[TRFrance]

This is one area of shortcoming that I've seen in many of our churches - the lack of training.

In many churches, the only instruction is given from the pulpit, and when you have such a diverse group, it's hard to address the needs of everyone in the pew.

I know that some will say that the anointing will cause the preached word to speak to everyone in a different way, and I believe that, but I also believe that it's a strong scriptural edict to have "teaching" in our churches, not just "preaching".

People perish not only from lack of preaching, but from lack of knowledge.
Well that's one reason we have Sunday School, and midweek Bible class... but unfortunately many saints view those as optional, not mandatory, so they skip 'em.

In my opinion, THAT is a key reason why there's a shortage of knowledge among many of our saints.

[rgcraig]

incestuous - excessively or improperly intimate or exclusive <mainstream fashion magazines have an incestuous relationship with advertisers

Doesn't necessarily mean breeding within.

[Michael Phelps]

Well that's one reason we have Sunday School, and midweek Bible class... but unfortunately many saints view those as optional, not mandatory, so they skip 'em.

In my opinion, THAT is a key reason that there's a shortage of knowledge among many of our saints.

Now, I would agree with this.

I certainly can't speak for all churches of all denominations, but in my personal experience, Bible Study is much less attended than Sunday services.

However, I've also been in churches where Bible Study was not really Bible Study, but another night for the pastor to preach.

If I ever pastored again, which is highly doubtful, I would implement age appropriate classes on Sunday morning, and "Spiritual age appropriate" classes on Wednesday night for Bible Study.

Now, having said that, I have seen a tremendous advance in some of the churches I've been involved with in the area of spiritual teaching and training in the last few years.

The churches that have strong training programs seem to be the ones growing steadily, and retaining the most new members.

[jediwill83]

I agree totally. must have balance. this is something I have had to learn the hard way. I got so used to talking with people who knew the Bible...that when I ran into this lady who had almost NO knowledge of even the most basic things in the Bible it threw me for a loop....had to be really careful to break things down to its most basic...it was awesome though cause she was hearing it for the first time and she wasnt having to filter it through tradition...still working on her.

[Michael Phelps]

I agree totally. must have balance. this is something I have had to learn the hard way. I got so used to talking with people who knew the Bible...that when I ran into this lady who had almost NO knowledge of even the most basic things in the Bible it threw me for a loop....had to be really careful to break things down to its most basic...it was awesome though cause she was hearing it for the first time and she wasnt having to filter it through tradition...still working on her.

I manage the engineering for the largest cereal plant in the world. We will have a 30 million dollar capital plan this year.

I oversee up to 80 projects at once, and have 10 Project Managers, assorted Project Engineers, Programmers, admin support, etc.

Each morning, I have a status review meeting that last about 15 minutes. It's straight to the point, everyone assembles, and I ask them "What are you working on today/what are your roadblocks/what do you need from me/what do you need from others on the team"?

Now, we have nearly a million square feet under roof here, with over 5000 pieces of equipment, and we produce a million pounds of cereal each day.

My seasoned PMs and myself have been here long enough that we know the plant processes, and a PM can give me one sentence, and I know exactly what he's talking about and where.

However, I have (4) brand new interns who stand there with a glazed look in their eyes when one of my PMs says "I'm working on a project to replace the hot water tank in the Ruby penthouse".

I know exactly what he means, and most of the other seasoned staff know, but my poor interns are as confused as a person who's just been told to go sit in the corner of a round room.

It would be ludicrous for me to expect that a co-op can learn what he or she needs to know within a 15 minute period each day, where we are talking about advanced procedures.

So, each week, for about an hour each day, I spend time strictly with the co-ops, and we pick one spot in the plant, I walk them thru the processes, explain the equipment to them, and then we discuss it in depth in my office. This is difficult for me to do, since I'm so busy, but it's absolutely crucial, not only to the co-op's development, but also to get them to a point where they can handle their own projects and be valuable to the team.

This, in my opinion, relates to the way many churches try and do business. We expect that the new converts will learn the basics about our doctrine and lifestyle by listening to a couple of sermons each week that are geared more toward the seasoned saints.

The one-on-one time with the new converts is invaluable, and I applaud churches that are taking the time to do it.

[mizpeh]

Great insight, MP!

[Michael Phelps]

Great insight, MP!

Why thank you, sis.

It was learned from experience, lol.

[Cindy]

THERE . . . . . . . . YOU . . . . . . . . . . GO.

:toofunny :killinme


Stand back boys, don't let her spray any spit on you! :blah :ranting :grumpy

:happydance

:toofunny :toofunny :toofunny

[nahkoe]

As a woman that birthed 9 babies I will tell any man that wants a LARGE family, DO IT YOUR SELF!!!!!!!!

:reaction :drama :toofunny

Hah!

And as a woman who's birthed 4 babies, I'd love to have a few more. Any single guys out there want a really big family(hey, I'd be happy to stay at 4 if I must...)? lol

I know for a fact I'm not going to attempt to raise 5 kids by myself, 4 is really more than I can do. :(

[Praxeas]

Anything that does not reproduce and evolve will die. The UPCI started out well, as a group to fellowship and encourage growth and evangelism. But, when the spirit of religion came in and words like "whole truth" were spread about, pride came in and the spiritual inbreeding began. Suddenly, preterists were kicked out, PCIers were not welcomed, and no one could be part of two orgs. Religion became god and Christ became a byword to some of them in leadership. The individual ministers were restrained in what they could and could not do.

But, the winds are blowing, and souls are seeing light outside the UPCI, that others are saved and living a godly life.
Baloney again. Brother you talk a lot...lol but you say little with substance. Too much sweeping generalizations, To many empty assertions with no proof.

"whole truth" like the "whole gospel" and "full salvation" were always a part of the UPCI. The Preterists were not "kicked out" either. Many UPCers STILL ARE PCI. And what are you complaining about not being able to be part of two orgs? What does that prove? Name names here bro...WHO are the leaders that Christ because a CUSS word to them (yes that is what byword means). How are individual ministers restrained in what they could and could not do? You realize most if not ALL organizations have limitations? You think that is problem? We need accountability.

[Pressing-On]

If this is the case then;

1. Your husband must have been a member of one of the small offshoots of the major Church of God org's since the COG Cleveland TN has for the most part mirrored the AOG for the last 30+ years regarding so called "standards"

or

2. Your husband must be older than dirt!!!!

:happydance

LOL! My husband is the same age as MOW, sooooo if my husband is older than dirt than what conclusion do we draw for MOW? :toofunny

[Pressing-On]

Perhaps this is what MOW meant, an inbreeding of spiritual DNA leading to retarded growth.

Without "new blood" there is no fresh perspective.

The challenge is perhaps in having an infusion of new blood without losing sight of the original vision of the house.

And to that unfortunately I am not sure there is a pat one-size-fits-all answer.

It is a constant balancing act to infuse new without betraying what should be immutable.

Can you say,

BILLY BOB



Exactly what I meant! Thank Griff!!! :D

Nice try, MOW, but your "Billy Bob" left you hanging - out to dry - in the damp weather. :D

[Cindy]

Hah!

And as a woman who's birthed 4 babies, I'd love to have a few more. Any single guys out there want a really big family(hey, I'd be happy to stay at 4 if I must...)? lol

I know for a fact I'm not going to attempt to raise 5 kids by myself, 4 is really more than I can do. :(

Yeah well since your moving to TX that just might happen. Git-er-done sister.:gaga

[Jekyll]

Who changed the name of the Thread??? grrrrr.

Incest means sexual acts between siblings or other closely related reneck I mean relatives. It has nothing to do with reproduction other than the offspring of incestuous relationships usually have major genetic difficulties. To compare that offspring with a 60 year old organization is retarded (no pun intended).

MOW was taking his chance in that post to trash the UPC, which is becoming of him. I echo Ferd's and PO's sentiments, glad he's gone and that the statement was one of the most immature, irresponsible, rediculous and acidic things a grown man could say.

Everyone thinks that I should leave if I don't like this forum. I can see your point but those same people should tell him to shut up also if he doesn't care for the UPCI organization.

[Jekyll]

Baloney again. Brother you talk a lot...lol but you say little with substance. Too much sweeping generalizations, To many empty assertions with no proof.

"whole truth" like the "whole gospel" and "full salvation" were always a part of the UPCI. The Preterists were not "kicked out" either. Many UPCers STILL ARE PCI. And what are you complaining about not being able to be part of two orgs? What does that prove? Name names here bro...WHO are the leaders that Christ because a CUSS word to them (yes that is what byword means). How are individual ministers restrained in what they could and could not do? You realize most if not ALL organizations have limitations? You think that is problem? We need accountability.
I'm glad you beat me to it.

[rgcraig]

Who changed the name of the Thread??? grrrrr.

Incest means sexual acts between siblings or other closely related reneck I mean relatives. It has nothing to do with reproduction other than the offspring of incestuous relationships usually have major genetic difficulties. To compare that offspring with a 60 year old organization is retarded (no pun intended).

MOW was taking his chance in that post to trash the UPC, which is becoming of him. I echo Ferd's and PO's sentiments, glad he's gone and that the statement was one of the most immature, irresponsible, rediculous and acidic things a grown man could say.

Everyone thinks that I should leave if I don't like this forum. I can see your point but those same people should tell him to shut up also if he doesn't care for the UPCI organization.
Another meaning is:
incestuous - excessively or improperly intimate or exclusive <mainstream fashion magazines have an incestuous relationship with advertisers

[Rhoni]

Well I'm glad Rhoni agrees w/ me on this thread ...

but we all know she's a feminazi.

Shows what the proverbial "they" know.

I watch my daughter also ... I am bothered when another man tells me that she shouldn't have a slit on her skirt ... or that it might be too high because he can see her knees or that it might be too tight ...

or maybe she's not saved ...

Reminds me of one of the super -heros of the movement who, when preaching at his home church, told the story of how a 16 year old girl got up in church to go to the restroom and a man walking past the church drug the girl from the church into the back and raped her...it was a good lead in to why our young women shouldn't wear slits in their skirts. I had to sit on my hands and bite my tongue at the igorance of the preacher that is in limelight so often that I want to throw up!

I doubt anyone ever tells you or your daughter that.

I know what you are saying though, and it's always up to the Father how his daughters are raised... my pastors never tried to raise me, my parents did.

I will verify that Daniel raises his own children and takes care of them by himself in the church and in the restaurants. They are never out of his sight. He is an awesome father.:happydance

It's good thing you don't really have an axe to grind . . . . because folks sure might get the wrong impression from this post . . . :rolleyes2

I disagree about looking like the general population. I see a paradigm shift where Christian men are easily discernable amongst the backdrop of the ocean of tattoos and piercings prevalent today. Not to mention the mop tops and variety of goofy arrangements of facial hair. A clean shaven face or a plain, standard beard stand out. Not to mention that I'm often wearing long sleeves when others are wearing short sleeves, and I'm still wearing long pants and a shirt of some sort when others are wearing nothing but shorts.

Looks like Rhoni is in your cheering section, though. Whoo hoo! Go Rhoni! :cheer:cheer:cheer:girlyluv
There were only two Apostolic young people in our local High School. I was a freshman and the young man was a senior. At church he was always wanted to date me, but at school he was too embarassed to even say hello in the hallway since I was the only girl with a dress to my knees and my hair piled up in a bun on my head. There are very few outward evidences of men's separation as compared to women. Bro. OP here is talking about extremes not the norm.

I think you're on to something here. Women have really been pushing the envelope ever since the eruption of the feminist movement in the '60s. Women at large have been dragged slightly in the direction of the radicalized fringe, because the fringe sets the dialoge and tugs on the mainstream. Men have largely been set adrift during this time, some have learned how to (cynically) benefit from the new, liberated version of females, but most have been victims of the new paradigms in family law. In short, women have further to travel to come home to a biblical worldview for a woman's calling. Most women today have an exceedingly difficult time extracting themselves from the feminism because it has so diffused into our culture.

In many cases they are good only in the church.

Yes, let's talk about family law that would burden a woman with all the children of the marriage union being dissolved with little to no child support that may or may not get paid forcing her into poverty, and having to work a minimum wage job, and go on food stamps while the High Priest of the home is out dating and having the time of his life: no wife, no kids, and no responsibility.

I do agree that men and women do not know their place due to war, and women have to go into the workplace to support their families, and wear pants to be more appropriately and modestly dressed to work in factories and such. And the men lost their control on the family when the woman had to support, discipline, and teach the children.

Furthermore, men have enjoyed letting their wives work so they can have off to go to campmeetings, preach in foreign countries, and let the local church take care of their families.


I was not implying or inferring either. What I got out of it was that you had a brief period during which you were evangelistic about large families. 99.9% of the women I have ever spoken to, no matter their religious affiliation, are rabidly defensive about their birth control. Even if they consider themselves "surrendered to God's will" in every other area of their lives. If you tell them they should have more babies, they are ready to take up arms and stage a one-woman shouting mob "civil rights" protest in the style of the best of the radical women's lib and planned parenthood activists.

So I can imagine an intense moment or two when you attempted to convince a crowd of ladies to consider this, and they attempted to convince you to burn yourself at the stake.

Let's see how many men, in the same position as women, would enjoy spending their young years; pregnant, overweight, bloated, nausiated, exhausted, with gestational diabetes, and have their men tell them how beautiful other women are, as they clean house, wash, clothe, and feed a small army while the husbands wages aren't enough to feed two much less 7-10. Of course, in her spare time she can sew and make all her children's clothing, and go out and kill deer or alligators to make them shoes.:tic "Submission my eye"!

As a woman that birthed 9 babies I will tell any man that wants a LARGE family, DO IT YOUR SELF!!!!!!!!

:reaction :drama :toofunny

AMEN:happydance

You are right. Bro Phelps is showing signs of wisdom, signs of truth, and signs of blessings. Or blessigns.

You have cleverly crafted a new and wondrous and fitting word.

Does your genius know no bounds? :yourock

:thumbsup

:winkgrin

:D

You talking to me?:boxing:tic

incestuous - excessively or improperly intimate or exclusive <mainstream fashion magazines have an incestuous relationship with advertisers

Doesn't necessarily mean breeding within.

Hah!

And as a woman who's birthed 4 babies, I'd love to have a few more. Any single guys out there want a really big family(hey, I'd be happy to stay at 4 if I must...)? lol

I know for a fact I'm not going to attempt to raise 5 kids by myself, 4 is really more than I can do. :(

Since more than 50% of first mariages end in divorce and an even higher percentage of 2nd marriages...chances are, Apostolic or not...the woman will be raising them by herself.

:reactionJust thought I'd add my $.02 since I have so many avid fans on this particular thread!

Blessings, Rhoni:tissue

[Mrs. LPW]

You're nothing if you're not honest Rhoni!!! :toofunny

[Rhoni]

You're nothing if you're not honest Rhoni!!! :toofunny

Thank you...I think. My honesty gets me in trouble a lot. My boss at work gets a kick out of it. She says I am the only one who, when corrected about anything, says, "Yes, I did it and I'm sorry." Of course I make so few mistakes that it only comes up on rare occasions:tic

[Mrs. LPW]

Thank you...I think. My honesty gets me in trouble a lot. My boss at work gets a kick out of it. She says I am the only one who, when corrected about anything, says, "Yes, I did it and I'm sorry." Of course I make so few mistakes that it only comes up on rare occasions:tic

I'll take honesty and genuine individual thought processes over parrotting anyday!

[Praxeas]

immature, irresponsible, rediculous and acidic things a grown man could say. .
That might be true...seriously it might really be true. No argument there. But I find a lot of your posts have those same characteristics

[ChristopherHall]

How UPCI church is seeing quite a few people from outside of Pentecost.

[Neck]

Unfair charge I think.

In a ten year period, the UPC would certainly have a greater percentile of new converts than any of the older mainstream (non-Pentecostal) denominations. In fact many if not most denominations are shrinking in size.

The Assemby of God has grown at 4 times the rate of the UPCI.

In fact the World Almanac in 2008 that list the estimated number of members was not listed for the first time.

I have the last 10 Almanacs and this is the first year.

The Assemby of God has 4 times the number of Churches and many more ministers.

In the 1970's it was thought and preached the UPCI by the year 1995 would be larger than the Assembly of God.

The UPCI from what I see is not growing if anything by 1 or 2 %...

[Mrs. LPW]

We often think living under the law was the harder thing to do... we forget that when Jesus came he said, not only is it wrong to commit adultery, if you even look on a woman to lust you have already committed it in your heart....

In that same sermon Jesus also raised the bar on divorce and remarriage.

Matthew 5

31
It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery

Fact is.. under this new convenent of Grace, Jesus raised the bar.. and so Grace and Truth work together.

In this new testement, the question is no longer, what can I do to the letter and what can I get away with. The question is... what can I do above and beyond what is required to please the one who left all and died for my sins...
I don't deserve happiness in life, I don't deserve peace in life... I don't deserve God's love in my life.. I deserve death and hell.

The humanistic cry of today is "Do what you need to do to be happy"

But.. that's another sermon for another thread.

(Disclaimer: Mrs. LPW has already made it plain in previous threads that she is not anti-divorce in some circumstances, but is very much pro-marriage)

[Hoovie]

The Assemby of God has grown at 4 times the rate of the UPCI.

In fact the World Almanac in 2008 that list the estimated number of members was not listed for the first time.

I have the last 10 Almanacs and this is the first year.

The Assemby of God has 4 times the number of Churches and many more ministers.

In the 1970's it was thought and preached the UPCI by the year 1995 would be larger than the Assembly of God.

The UPCI from what I see is not growing if anything by 1 or 2 %...

The two bolded parts are not exactly the same thing.

NecK, Does the church you attend have any affiliations at all and if so, do you have stats for that org.?

[Mrs. LPW]

Everyone knows the UPCI is not the only body of believers on this earth... I can never quite understand the need for those outside of the organization to critique our growth... they should be concerning themselves with their own. If we all concerned ourselves with our own walks and our own soul winning and our own unsaved loved ones and our own families, and stopped comparing ourselves among ourselves, we'd actually be DOING something for the Kingdom. :D

[Rico]

Everyone knows the UPCI is not the only body of believers on this earth... I can never quite understand the need for those outside of the organization to critique our growth... they should be concerning themselves with their own. If we all concerned ourselves with our own walks and our own soul winning and our own unsaved loved ones and our own families, and stopped comparing ourselves among ourselves, we'd actually be DOING something for the Kingdom. :D

Pointing out the UPC's flaws has been a mainstay of these forums since the very beginning.

[rgcraig]

Pointing out the UPC's flaws has been a mainstay of these forums since the very beginning.

I think that's a very unfair statement.

There is discussion about UPC - we are familiar with it because we have a history with it or are a part of it now. I think there's a little :reaction going on!

P.S. Love your avatar - don't you just love Tyler Perry's work!

[Rico]

I think that's a very unfair statement.

There is discussion about UPC - we are familiar with it because we have a history with it or are a part of it now. I think there's a little :reaction going on!

P.S. Love your avatar - don't you just love Tyler Perry's work!

Sister, you can whitewash it all you want, but the UPCI has been a constant target on these forums. Anyone with half an eye could see this is the case.


I really like that Curtis Payne fella. He reminds me a lot of me. :D

[rgcraig]

Sister, you can whitewash it all you want, but the UPCI has been a constant target on these forums. Anyone with half an eye could see this is the case.


I really like that Curtis Payne fella. He reminds me a lot of me. :D

I'm just saying I can't talk about Baptist because I'm not familiar with it! The reason UPC comes up so much around here is because we are all a part of it some how.

You don't talk about your family?

[LaVonne]

Well said.

If the church is to be effective, in my opinion, it should be set up like a school.

There is kindergarten for the beginners, and then progressive stages of learning and development all the way thru college.

Then, the college graduates begin to teach.

And the cycle goes on.

This is one area of shortcoming that I've seen in many of our churches - the lack of training.

In many churches, the only instruction is given from the pulpit, and when you have such a diverse group, it's hard to address the needs of everyone in the pew.

I know that some will say that the anointing will cause the preached word to speak to everyone in a different way, and I believe that, but I also believe that it's a strong scriptural edict to have "teaching" in our churches, not just "preaching".

People perish not only from lack of preaching, but from lack of knowledge.
:girlytantrum This is often times how I feel about "teaching" in the UPC church. While I tend to agree with your post MP, I also have mixed emotions about it. The church my husband was raised in was big on teaching...in fact, they did much more teaching than they did preaching. We had all sorts of classes for "young marrieds, women's class, child training, etc...". My problem with this particular church (and a few others I've attended) is that these people have twisted the scriptures and through their "teaching" have caused a lot of problems. They basically taught us that none were more holy than we were, because of the wisdom of the elders in our church were far more wise than any other's in the district...no one measured up to our church. We were taught to judge and criticize other UPC churches and of course other religions. We were taught to isolate ourselves from family and friends that were non-UPC and only fellowship at church. This is stuff that was taught on a regular basis and this is only the tip of the iceberg. Standards were "taught", but you could not ask questions about them. I could go on and on and on, but I don't have the time or the energy.

MP, I know this is not what you were implying when you say you feel that we need more "teaching". However, I feel there are two sides to this and felt like sharing.

[Rico]

I'm just saying I can't talk about Baptist because I'm not familiar with it! The reason UPC comes up so much around here is because we are all a part of it some how.

You don't talk about your family?

That doesn't change the fact that more gets said about what's wrong with the UPC than what is right with it. I've seen the org. get nitpicked to death on these forums. Everything from standards to the manual to evangelism to foreign missions to the internet to tv, etc. The list of negativity goes on and on, while the list of positive things is almost non-existent.

[rgcraig]

That doesn't change the fact that more gets said about what's wrong with the UPC than what is right with it. I've seen the org. get nitpicked to death on these forums. Everything from standards to the manual to evangelism to foreign missions to the internet to tv, etc. The list of negativity goes on and on, while the list of positive things is almost non-existent.

Just curious, but have to ask. In your assessement are you also including the ones that had nothing good to say about UPC that left to start their own organization or are you just holding it against the ones that have left period.

There are some on here that discuss the downfall of UPC that are still very much a part of UPC.

[Rico]

Just curious, but have to ask. In your assessement are you also including the ones that had nothing good to say about UPC that left to start their own organization or are you just holding it against the ones that have left period.

There are some on here that discuss the downfall of UPC that are still very much a part of UPC.

To be honest with you, I am just venting. I am getting to the point that I am growing weary of reading so many negative things about the Church. I know I have done my share of complaining in the past. No denial there. It's just that I have begun to see the Church as being under attack, from without and from within. There seems to be something afoot that is bent on destroying the Church, using any means possible, including those who are its members. It seems to be moving beyond the actions of individuals to discrediting the Church as a whole. I am not just talking about the UPC either. We seem to be disintegrating into splits and factions, each with its own ideas, purpose, and goals. There is an old saying that says, "United we stand. Divided we fall."

[rgcraig]

To be honest with you, I am just venting. I am getting to the point that I am growing weary of reading so many negative things about the Church. I know I have done my share of complaining in the past. No denial there. It's just that I have begun to see the Church as being under attack, from without and from within. There seems to be something afoot that is bent on destroying the Church, using any means possible, including those who are its members. It seems to be moving beyond the actions of individuals to discrediting the Church as a whole. I am not just talking about the UPC either. We seem to be disintegrating into splits and factions, each with its own ideas, purpose, and goals. There is an old saying that says, "United we stand. Divided we fall."

Yep.

[Cindy]

To be honest with you, I am just venting. I am getting to the point that I am growing weary of reading so many negative things about the Church. I know I have done my share of complaining in the past. No denial there. It's just that I have begun to see the Church as being under attack, from without and from within. There seems to be something afoot that is bent on destroying the Church, using any means possible, including those who are its members. It seems to be moving beyond the actions of individuals to discrediting the Church as a whole. I am not just talking about the UPC either. We seem to be disintegrating into splits and factions, each with its own ideas, purpose, and goals. There is an old saying that says, "United we stand. Divided we fall."

A great falling away. But just imagine the ones that remain and stand the tests of the times and the new ones coming in may be so great that revival is sure to follow. And I am not talking about a revival meeting in a church building. But God's revival where whole cities and the country turn to Him. All the whiney-hineys will be fallen by the wayside.

[stmatthew]

To be honest with you, I am just venting. I am getting to the point that I am growing weary of reading so many negative things about the Church. I know I have done my share of complaining in the past. No denial there. It's just that I have begun to see the Church as being under attack, from without and from within. There seems to be something afoot that is bent on destroying the Church, using any means possible, including those who are its members. It seems to be moving beyond the actions of individuals to discrediting the Church as a whole. I am not just talking about the UPC either. We seem to be disintegrating into splits and factions, each with its own ideas, purpose, and goals. There is an old saying that says, "United we stand. Divided we fall."

Mat 10:36 And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household.

[Cindy]

Mat 10:36 And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household.

Been there. Took over 20 years, but he found Jesus on his way to work one day. And became what he hated for so long. Imagine that.

[rgcraig]

How did this thread turn into a divorce thread?

Oh, never mind - it was Rhoni!

Since more than 50% of first mariages end in divorce and an even higher percentage of 2nd marriages...chances are, Apostolic or not...the woman will be raising them by herself.

Just thought I'd add my $.02 since I have so many avid fans on this particular thread!

[James Griffin]

Thread probably does need to get back to its roots, but if one were to start a no fault divorce one I would weigh in HEAVY on the side of its contribution to the divorce rate.

[rgcraig]

Thread probably does need to get back to its roots, but if one were to start a no fault divorce one I would weigh in HEAVY on the side of its contribution to the divorce rate.

Start it - I agree with you!

[HeavenlyOne]

That doesn't change the fact that more gets said about what's wrong with the UPC than what is right with it. I've seen the org. get nitpicked to death on these forums. Everything from standards to the manual to evangelism to foreign missions to the internet to tv, etc. The list of negativity goes on and on, while the list of positive things is almost non-existent.

Most of the time, when we talk about our families, it's discussing what's wrong with them and not what's right with them. Think about it.

We don't often talk about Joe, who is a lawyer and living in the burbs with his trophy wife, picket fence and 2.4 kids.

But Michael, the cousin who can't keep his hands off other people's stuff and has been in prison for most of the last 15 years in 6 states? Now THAT gets attention!

[Rico]

Most of the time, when we talk about our families, it's discussing what's wrong with them and not what's right with them. Think about it.

We don't often talk about Joe, who is a lawyer and living in the burbs with his trophy wife, picket fence and 2.4 kids.

But Michael, the cousin who can't keep his hands off other people's stuff and has been in prison for most of the last 15 years in 6 states? Now THAT gets attention!

Maybe your family spends most of its time running each other down, but my family doesn't do that.

[HeavenlyOne]

Just curious, but have to ask. In your assessement are you also including the ones that had nothing good to say about UPC that left to start their own organization or are you just holding it against the ones that have left period.

There are some on here that discuss the downfall of UPC that are still very much a part of UPC.

In addition, there are people wanting to bring about a change. You can't do this if all you do is talk about what's positive.

Even in my job, we have to address what's wrong in order to bring about change. If we don't, things get worse instead of better, yet it seems that all we talk about are the negative things. When we step back and look at the changes, however, that's when we see the reality of our efforts.

[rgcraig]

Maybe your family spends most of its time running each other down, but my family doesn't do that.

You aren't sitting at their table! You don't know what they are saying when you aren't there.

[Rico]

You aren't sitting at their table! You don't know what they are saying when you aren't there.

I can safely say I know my family better than you do. :lol

[rgcraig]

In addition, there are people wanting to bring about a change. You can't do this if all you do is talk about what's positive.

Even in my job, we have to address what's wrong in order to bring about change. If we don't, things get worse instead of better, yet it seems that all we talk about are the negative things. When we step back and look at the changes, however, that's when we see the reality of our efforts.

You are exactly right and even folks that work at WEC know there are big problems they need to fix and they are working on them. Change always shakes things up!

[rgcraig]

I can safely say I know my family better than you do. :lol

Just messin' with you!

[Rico]

Just messin' with you!

I know. That's why I started laughing. :)

[HeavenlyOne]

Maybe your family spends most of its time running each other down, but my family doesn't do that.

Did you read what I said? How does talking about the cousin in jail and why he's there equate to running him down??

Maybe your family doesn't have problems. Mine does. We address them and aren't afraid to do so.

[HeavenlyOne]

You are exactly right and even folks that work at WEC know there are big problems they need to fix and they are working on them. Change always shakes things up!

I look forward to the changes, as the UPC is all I know and I don't want to leave it.

[Rico]

Did you read what I said? How does talking about the cousin in jail and why he's there equate to running him down??

Maybe your family doesn't have problems. Mine does. We address them and aren't afraid to do so.

No, I didn't read anything you said. I made it all up. What a dumb question! :lol


What goes on on these forums isn't a discussion in search of solutions. It's mostly accusations about this, that, and the other. There is very little constructive discussion going on.

[Mrs. LPW]

Did you read what I said? How does talking about the cousin in jail and why he's there equate to running him down??

Maybe your family doesn't have problems. Mine does. We address them and aren't afraid to do so.

Talking about problems is one thing...

You must not have read some of the things I've read.

[HeavenlyOne]

No, I didn't read anything you said. I made it all up. What a dumb question! :lol


What goes on on these forums isn't a discussion in search of solutions. It's mostly accusations about this, that, and the other. There is very little constructive discussion going on.

I agree that there have been comments that haven't been constructive, but I've personally seen more negative comments directed at those who left the UPC because of the problems than the negative comments about the UPC alone.

[HeavenlyOne]

Talking about problems is one thing...

You must not have read some of the things I've read.

I've read some, but the only time I'm clued in on the problem about it is in threads like this when someone mentions it. Like I said in another thread last night, maybe you all should just read and respond to threads that I read and respond to. LOL!

[Jekyll]

That might be true...seriously it might really be true. No argument there. But I find a lot of your posts have those same characteristics
I do not make an excuse for all the things I have written. With that in mind what I write has meanings that may be subtle BUT they are never written with a mask. Nor are they written in hatred or spite.

I do not claim to post fairly or with tolerance. However, I have a responsibility to expose pseudo balance, tolerance and objectivity from those individuals masqerading as such. If it seems that my posts have those characteristics, I would say that such a judgement is in the eye of the beholder.

Thanks for your honest response. I really mean that.

[Dimples]

I do not make an excuse for all the things I have written. With that in mind what I write has meanings that may be subtle BUT they are never written with a mask. Nor are they written in hatred or spite.

I do not claim to post fairly or with tolerance. However, I have a responsibility to expose pseudo balance, tolerance and objectivity from those individuals masqerading as such. If it seems that my posts have those characteristics, I would say that such a judgement is in the eye of the beholder.

Thanks for your honest response. I really mean that.

At least you are up front and honest about your posting style.

Why is it your responsibility? Did someone vote you as forum monitor?

[HeavenlyOne]

At least you are up front and honest about your posting style.

Why is it your responsibility? Did someone vote you as forum monitor?

It's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it.....LOL!

[Jekyll]

At least you are up front and honest about your posting style.

Why is it your responsibility? Did someone vote you as forum monitor?
It is my responsibility because I choose it to be. No one voted me forum monitor no more than anyone else was voted UPCI Reproduction Counselor, AFF Resident Psychobabbler/Dear ______ Quack, or any other designation that various people prefer to pick up.

[Jekyll]

BTW, gotta love the sanitation department around here.

[Carpenter]

At least you are up front and honest about your posting style.

Why is it your responsibility? Did someone vote you as forum monitor?

Isn't there some saying somewhere that when men of integrity stand by and do nothing, they are guilty of the infraction they are watching happen?

...but then again, I am only a janitor.

:D

[rgcraig]

BTW, gotta love the sanitation department around here.

Cleaned it up just for you!:bliss