PDA

View Full Version : TD Jakes on the Godhead


Lost
03-20-2007, 09:39 AM
http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/2000/februaryweb-only/13.0b.html

My Views on the Godhead
Jakes responds to Christianity Today article, "Apologetics Journal Criticizes Jakes."

By Bishop T. D. Jakes | Hearsay, not heresy.

I was raised Baptist and became Pentecostal 26 years ago at a Greater Emmanuel Apostolic Church, where I was later ordained a Bishop. I resigned from that denomination 11 years ago, and have continued to fellowship with Higher Ground Always Abounding Assemblies. This small fellowship of churches is not a denomination, and differs in many ways from traditional Apostolic churches.

Both chapters of my early spiritual journey contributed volumes to my faith and walk with God, helping to hone my character. I was shaped by and appreciate both denominations, but am controlled by neither. My association with Oneness people does not constitute assimilation into their ranks any more than my association with the homeless in our city makes me one of them.

Day-to-day, my affiliation is with the Pater Alliance, an interdenominational network of some 250 churches, which I founded three years ago and serve as CEO, senior minister, and mentor, providing leadership for pastors from Presbyterian, to Baptist, to Pentecostal. My own 23,000-member church, The Potter's House in Dallas, is non-denominational and growing exponentially. There, I serve widely different people whose common desire is to know God, and to grow in the knowledge of, and fellowship with, Jesus Christ.

While I mix with Christians from a broad range of theological perspectives, I speak only for my personal faith and convictions. I am not a theologian, and I avoid quoting even theologians who agree with me. To defend my beliefs, I go directly to the Bible.

My views on the Godhead are from 1 John 5:7-8, "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." (NKJV)

I believe in one God who is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I believe these three have distinct and separate functions—so separate that each has individual attributes, yet are one. I do not believe in three Gods.

Many things can be said about the Son that cannot be said about the Father. The Son was born of a virgin; the Father created the virgin from whom He was born. The Son slept (Luke 8:23), but the Father never sleeps (Psalm 121:3-5). The Son took on the likeness of sinful flesh (Romans 8:3), but God is a spirit (John 4:24). Likewise, several characteristics are distinctive to the Holy Spirit (John 16:13). The Holy Spirit alone empowers (Acts 1:8), indwells (2 Timothy 1:15), and guides the believer (John 16:14).

In spite of all the distinctives, God is one in His essence. Though no human illustration perfectly fits the Divine, it is similar to ice, water and steam: three separate forms, yet all H2O. Each element can co-exist, each has distinguishing characteristics and functions, but all have sameness.

In 1 Timothy 3:16, the Apostle Paul says, "Without controversy, great is the mystery of Godliness." Without controversy, it is a mystery, not always to be figured out, but to be entered into.

The language in the doctrinal statement of our ministry that refers to the Trinity of the Godhead as "manifestations" does not derive from modalism. The Apostle Paul himself used this term referring to the Godhead in 1 Timothy 3:15, 1 Corinthians 12:7, and 1 John 3:5-8. Peter also used the term in 1 Peter 1:20. Can this word now be heresy when it is a direct quote from the Pauline epistles and used elsewhere in the New Testament?

I believe Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. I believe He was born of a virgin, crucified on a cross, arose from the dead, and is coming again for His church. I believe He sent the Holy Spirit to lead and guide the Church. And I believe in justification by faith. I also believe that baptism is a commandment to be observed in obedience to God's Word. The rites of baptism are celebrated in our church by immersion in the name of Jesus Christ. I have always, without exception, baptized as the early church did in Acts 2:38, 10:44 and 9:1-4. That is my conviction, based on Scripture.

Nevertheless, many of my respected colleagues quote Matthew 28:19 when they baptize, while others use both, saying, "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, we do all things in Jesus' name." Our love for the same Lord has enabled us to walk together in love without dissension and in spite of variance in procedures.

I deeply appreciate the chance to respond to any misunderstandings that may have resulted in part from my silence on these subjects. Little if any attention is given to any of them in my books or sermons. My silence has not been some veiled attempt to disguise my faith, which is demonstrated daily in the works I have been called to do. My voice may have seemed muted on these subjects, but I have made a distinct sound regarding the matters that I have been assigned to discuss with my generation. I have spoken boldly against domestic violence—and against physical, sexual and emotional abuse of women in this nation. I have thundered as an advocate of reconciliation between races and denominations, and for restoration of hurting souls to the healing properties of Christ's love.

I confess that I have remained aloof from the theological controversies. And I confess I have been universal in my associations, purposely ignoring opportunities to be divisive. But it was not lack of conviction, or absence of proper Christian ideals, that had taken my attention—I love the great principles and tenets of our faith, and I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yet it is not the oneness of God for which I cry, it is for the oneness of His people.

When I think of the Trinity, I consider how Jesus prayed under the unction of the Holy Spirit that we would be one even as He and the Father are one. To that end, I preach, write and work. No truth exemplified by the Trinity is greater than Christian unity. As we seek to dissect the divine, articulate the abstract, and defend what I agree are precious truths, I hope we do not miss the greater message taught by the concept of the Trinity. And that is that three—though distinct—are still one!

Bishop T.D. Jakes is the founder and Senior Pastor of The Potter's House in Dallas, one of the largest churches in the nation.


This article was probably shared on NFCF, but I'll post it again for those that may not have read it yet.

CC1
03-20-2007, 09:47 AM
I just quickly read it while at work and at first glance I agree with him.

Steve Epley
03-20-2007, 09:53 AM
CC1 he hedged and you know it. Can I disagree? No any Oneness person would have to agree because we know however the unlearned will pass over it without having a clue which is the intent in my humble opinion.

Scott Hutchinson
03-20-2007, 09:56 AM
I could agree with the fact that there are distictions in the manifestations of God but not a plurality of being.Not to use the term Trinity I can't accept because that would imply eternal sonship and a plurality of three persons which I can't accept.

CC1
03-20-2007, 09:59 AM
Elder Epley,

I have never had the problems with trinitarians that most OP's do. I believe our view of the Godhead is more accurate but I don't think they are worshipping "3 gods" or a "fasle god" etc.

The trinitarian view is quite clear that they believe in monotheism and one God. OP's just don't agree with the extent to which they give seperate personalities to each component making up God.

For example I think a person can quite clearly see that the New Testament example of water baptism is in the name of Jesus while still being a trinitarian.

Am I comfortable with the trinitarian view of God? NO! I have sat in services where a prayer sounds like an organizational chart as they ask Jesus to talk to God the Father, etc, etc.

However I have also seen OP's be afraid of verbage that they think seperates God when that same verbage is directly in the New Testament. Many times from the mouth of Jesus himself as he talks about the Father.

Scott Hutchinson
03-20-2007, 10:06 AM
Here one can read about the early trinitarian creeds.
http://www.homepage.mac.com/shanerrosenthal/reformationthink/aahcreeds.htm
This url is not correct,I'll get the correct one sorry.

Steve Epley
03-20-2007, 10:06 AM
Elder Epley,

I have never had the problems with trinitarians that most OP's do. I believe our view of the Godhead is more accurate but I don't think they are worshipping "3 gods" or a "fasle god" etc.

The trinitarian view is quite clear that they believe in monotheism and one God. OP's just don't agree with the extent to which they give seperate personalities to each component making up God.

For example I think a person can quite clearly see that the New Testament example of water baptism is in the name of Jesus while still being a trinitarian.

Am I comfortable with the trinitarian view of God? NO! I have sat in services where a prayer sounds like an organizational chart as they ask Jesus to talk to God the Father, etc, etc.

However I have also seen OP's be afraid of verbage that they think seperates God when that same verbage is directly in the New Testament. Many times from the mouth of Jesus himself as he talks about the Father.

I understand particularly you last observation. I have never understood why someone would be reluctant to use the language used by the writers of the Bible. Since I am certain in my concept of the Godhead I use the terms freely as used in scripture without doing injustice to the Oneness of God. However Jakes intent I feel is to accomodate without clarity for he knows clarity would be his enemy and not his friend.

Scott Hutchinson
03-20-2007, 10:10 AM
Ok I'll try again.
http://homepage.mac.com/shanerrosenthal/reformationink/aahcreeds.htm

rrford
03-20-2007, 10:11 AM
T.D. Jakes is Oneness. (Not sure how he explains it, but according to some it is the same view as the UPCI.)

Tommy Tenney is Oneness. (He explains it just like the UPCI, evidently.)

Now here is the conundrum:

Lifeway ceased selling any of Tommy's books because of his stance on Oneness theology. You won't find one on their shelves anywhere.

On the other hand, the other guy, Oneness Jakes, seems to have an abundant supply of books on Lifeway's shelves.

Can anyone explain that? Or is it that someone "explains" things in a rather confusing or compromising manner?

Malvaro
03-20-2007, 10:14 AM
T.D. Jakes is Oneness. (Not sure how he explains it, but according to some it is the same view as the UPCI.)

Tommy Tenney is Oneness. (He explains it just like the UPCI, evidently.)

Now here is the conundrum:

Lifeway ceased selling any of Tommy's books because of his stance on Oneness theology. You won't find one on their shelves anywhere.
On the other hand, the other guy, Oneness Jakes, seems to have an abundant supply of books on Lifeway's shelves.

Can anyone explain that? Or is it that someone "explains" things in a rather confusing or compromising manner?

ummmmm, I was there about a month back and I'm sure I saw some of his books....

rrford
03-20-2007, 10:17 AM
ummmmm, I was there about a month back and I'm sure I saw some of his books....

If that is the case then they have changed their position on his books.

An author search of their website shows only Hadassa. And probably because he is listed as the secondary author.

Malvaro
03-20-2007, 10:19 AM
it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, but I'm pretty sure I saw some of his books.... I'll make sure to check that next time I go....

CC1
03-20-2007, 10:21 AM
I understand particularly you last observation. I have never understood why someone would be reluctant to use the language used by the writers of the Bible. Since I am certain in my concept of the Godhead I use the terms freely as used in scripture without doing injustice to the Oneness of God. However Jakes intent I feel is to accomodate without clarity for he knows clarity would be his enemy and not his friend.

Good post. I agree with your analysis and it applies to both TD Jakes and Christ Church.

I happen to agree with it though. If you believe, as I do, that the differences in trinitarian and Oneness theology are not a matter of heaven or hell then you can afford to be non confrontational with your differences from conventional Christian theology regarding the godhead.

I think it is possible that this stance opens some doors to people considering altering their views than sometimes the hardcore position does.

I am pleased that T.D. Jakes statement says that he 100% of the time baptizes in the name of Jesus per scripture.

I think slowly but surely many of these exUPCers are making an impact in Christendom. I don't see the rabid (to use an rkentsmith word) opposition to baptism in Jesus name as much as I used to. Even TBN has softened it's hardline against it as so many exUPCers associated with them now apparently have had an impact. (BTW channel surfing a couple of days ago and saw Steve Munsey. He looks awful. I wonder what happened to his face.)

rrford
03-20-2007, 10:22 AM
ummmmm, I was there about a month back and I'm sure I saw some of his books....
Mal, check out this link:

http://www.charismamag.com/display.php?id=1158&print=yes

Malvaro
03-20-2007, 10:24 AM
Tenney still preaches in some AOG churches though....

Scott Hutchinson
03-20-2007, 10:26 AM
Here is some info on the early Trinity creeds.
These should work.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/indenity/trinity.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers

Scott Hutchinson
03-20-2007, 10:27 AM
One works anyways.

CC1
03-20-2007, 10:30 AM
When we have communion at Christ Church (one Sunday a month) we recite the Apostles Creed together before communion. We only have changed the word "catholic" in the creed since a lot of people don't realize it simply means "universal" and would think we are endorsing the Roman Catholic Church.

I like it because the creed sums up pretty much the entire concept of Chrisitanity in a short simple saying. It brings to your mind once again the broad scope of man's condition, God's solution, and what is to come in eternity.

Pressing-On
03-20-2007, 10:30 AM
Elder Epley,

I have never had the problems with trinitarians that most OP's do. I believe our view of the Godhead is more accurate but I don't think they are worshipping "3 gods" or a "fasle god" etc.

The trinitarian view is quite clear that they believe in monotheism and one God. OP's just don't agree with the extent to which they give seperate personalities to each component making up God.

For example I think a person can quite clearly see that the New Testament example of water baptism is in the name of Jesus while still being a trinitarian.

Am I comfortable with the trinitarian view of God? NO! I have sat in services where a prayer sounds like an organizational chart as they ask Jesus to talk to God the Father, etc, etc.

However I have also seen OP's be afraid of verbage that they think seperates God when that same verbage is directly in the New Testament. Many times from the mouth of Jesus himself as he talks about the Father.
CC1,
I agree with your comments. Even David Bernard says that most people that say they are Trinitarian are meaning the same thing as TD Jakes. They believe there is one God. My mother is an example of that. Two of my sister's are Baptist and they believe that Jesus is God.

CC1
03-20-2007, 10:34 AM
CC1,
I agree with your comments. Even David Bernard says that most people that say they are Trinitarian are meaning the same thing as TD Jakes. They believe there is one God. My mother is an example of that. Two of my sister's are Baptist and they believe that Jesus is God.

A few months ago I was discussing this with a friend of mind. He was telling me about when he was in college a very...er....strong minded Oneness Pentecostal friend of his went home with him to visit his grandparents for the weekend. My friends grandfather was a retired Baptist or Methodist preacher (I forget which).

The Oneness Pentecostal college kid decided to take the opportunity of his visit to show this old man the error of his ways and lead him to the Oneness view of God. The funny thing was that by the end of the visit the college kid came to understand that he and the old man pretty much shared the same view of God although they used different verbage to describe it.

Scott Hutchinson
03-20-2007, 10:36 AM
This link does work I checked it out.
I believe Oneness and Trinity are vastly different doctrines.
http://www.bible.ca/H-trinity.htm

Pressing-On
03-20-2007, 10:36 AM
A few months ago I was discussing this with a friend of mind. He was telling me about when he was in college a very...er....strong minded Oneness Pentecostal friend of his went home with him to visit his grandparents for the weekend. My friends grandfather was a retired Baptist or Methodist preacher (I forget which).

The Oneness Pentecostal college kid decided to take the opportunity of his visit to show this old man the error of his ways and lead him to the Oneness view of God. The funny thing was that by the end of the visit the college kid came to understand that he and the old man pretty much shared the same view of God although they used different verbage to describe it.
This is true and actually I have only met one person in my life, thus far, that is a total dyed in the wool three God Trinitarian. I can't understand her at all. lol

Pressing-On
03-20-2007, 10:37 AM
This link does work I checked it out.
I believe Oneness and Trinity are vastly different doctrines.
http://www.bible.ca/H-trinity.htm

Scott you are the link man!!! Ever since I have been posting, on these Forum Boards, you have come up with tons of links! lol!

CC1
03-20-2007, 10:38 AM
This is true and actually I have only met one person in my life, thus far, that is a total dyed in the wool three God Trinitarian. I can't understand her at all. lol

I have met a few of those also. They tend to be uneducated or were taught for many years by an uneducated trinitarian preacher.

Of course I have also met Oneness Pentecosctals that have a warped and inaccurate understanding of Oneness theology also.

Pressing-On
03-20-2007, 10:41 AM
I have met a few of those also. They tend to be uneducated or were taught for many years by an uneducated trinitarian preacher.

Of course I have also met Oneness Pentecosctals that have a warped and inaccurate understanding of Oneness theology also.

True.

Joelel
03-20-2007, 01:49 PM
http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/2000/februaryweb-only/13.0b.html



This article was probably shared on NFCF, but I'll post it again for those that may not have read it yet.

The fact is some will bend in any direction and fellowship anything even teachings of devils.There is one way to baptize and it is in Jesus(Jehoshua)name.
Rom.16:17: Now I beseech you, brethren, mark(be on guard) them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18: For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Neck
03-20-2007, 01:58 PM
He does not believe in 3 Gods. Does he believe in 3 person's? That is the question...

Praxeas
03-20-2007, 01:58 PM
http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/2000/februaryweb-only/13.0b.html



This article was probably shared on NFCF, but I'll post it again for those that may not have read it yet.

I believe in one God who is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I believe these three have distinct and separate functions—so separate that each has individual attributes, yet are one. I do not believe in three Gods.

From time to time I see Christians make this statement but it is clear they have no idea what they are talking about. He says 'these three', but the question is three what?!?! What are they? He later says "manifestations", but what does that mean? He says this is not the same as modalism...so he does not mean manifestation in the same way a modalist would...

And then he says "....yet are one".. yet are one What?? What does that mean? Are they one person? Are they one thing? Are they one in essence and being or are they simply one in unity like the states of America are one nation?

Scott Hutchinson
03-20-2007, 02:00 PM
I wonder does Bishop Jakes believe in the eternal sonship doctrine?

OGIA
03-20-2007, 02:07 PM
we recite the Apostles CreedWhen'd they (the Apostles) write that?

OGIA
03-20-2007, 02:08 PM
I wonder does Bishop Jakes believe in the eternal sonship doctrine?You'll probably find Hoffa's body before you'd get that answer, brother.

Neck
03-20-2007, 02:14 PM
I believe in one God who is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I believe these three have distinct and separate functions—so separate that each has individual attributes, yet are one. I do not believe in three Gods.

From time to time I see Christians make this statement but it is clear they have no idea what they are talking about. He says 'these three', but the question is three what?!?! What are they? He later says "manifestations", but what does that mean? He says this is not the same as modalism...so he does not mean manifestation in the same way a modalist would...

And then he says "....yet are one".. yet are one What?? What does that mean? Are they one person? Are they one thing? Are they one in essence and being or are they simply one in unity like the states of America are one nation?

I agree if he states this, " believe these three have distinct and separate functions", If he is talking about manifestations as distinct they have to be attribues not of one but of more than one. So if these functions-manifestations are distinct in function. Then he is breaking the God-head into 3 personalities not 3 manifestations of one.

If sounds like to the casual Oneness fan and the casual Trinity fan he saying it how each thinks they believe it.

He would have a hard time talking to me.......

South of I 90
03-20-2007, 02:16 PM
Elder Epley,

I have never had the problems with trinitarians that most OP's do. I believe our view of the Godhead is more accurate but I don't think they are worshipping "3 gods" or a "fasle god" etc.

The trinitarian view is quite clear that they believe in monotheism and one God. OP's just don't agree with the extent to which they give seperate personalities to each component making up God.

For example I think a person can quite clearly see that the New Testament example of water baptism is in the name of Jesus while still being a trinitarian.

Am I comfortable with the trinitarian view of God? NO! I have sat in services where a prayer sounds like an organizational chart as they ask Jesus to talk to God the Father, etc, etc.

However I have also seen OP's be afraid of verbage that they think seperates God when that same verbage is directly in the New Testament. Many times from the mouth of Jesus himself as he talks about the Father.


Good post CC1,

I'm sure there are some acid trinitarians that believe when we get to Heaven, there will be a 3 way conversation happening at the throne. However, I've yet to run into any of them.

South of I 90
03-20-2007, 02:17 PM
(BTW channel surfing a couple of days ago and saw Steve Munsey. He looks awful. I wonder what happened to his face.)


I think his plastic surgeon was using a butter knife on his last visit!!

Warmbee
03-20-2007, 02:51 PM
I was talking to a lady at my job and asked her did she believe that Jesus is God, she said yes, but that she didn't believe the Holy Ghost was God.... :shifty Thought that one was kinda wierd cause even when I was trinitarian I was always told that the Holy Ghost was God's spirit....

Praxeas
03-20-2007, 02:52 PM
I was talking to a lady at my job and asked her did she believe that Jesus is God, she said yes, but that she didn't believe the Holy Ghost was God.... :shifty Thought that one was kinda wierd cause even when I was trinitarian I was always told that the Holy Ghost was God's spirit....
Weird...since Trinitarians believe the Holy Ghost is the third PERSON of the Trinity.

Are you sure she was a Trinitarian?

Warmbee
03-20-2007, 03:09 PM
Yeah, she said so. But then again, alot of people say they are and really have no idea what the trinitarian doctrine really is:dunno

Hoovie
03-20-2007, 03:31 PM
T.D. Jakes is Oneness. (Not sure how he explains it, but according to some it is the same view as the UPCI.)

Tommy Tenney is Oneness. (He explains it just like the UPCI, evidently.)

Now here is the conundrum:

Lifeway ceased selling any of Tommy's books because of his stance on Oneness theology. You won't find one on their shelves anywhere.

On the other hand, the other guy, Oneness Jakes, seems to have an abundant supply of books on Lifeway's shelves.

Can anyone explain that? Or is it that someone "explains" things in a rather confusing or compromising manner?


My first thoughts are:

Tommy Tenny has stronger and closer family ties to the UPC.

T. D. Jakes is a bigger name than Tommy Tenny - therefore there is more money for Lifeway to lose if they pull Jakes.

South of I 90
03-20-2007, 04:17 PM
My first thoughts are:

Tommy Tenny has stronger and closer family ties to the UPC.

T. D. Jakes is a bigger name than Tommy Tenny - therefore there is more money for Lifeway to lose if they pull Jakes.


You won't find Jakes Books at Lifeway.

Praxeas
03-20-2007, 05:18 PM
You won't find Jakes Books at Lifeway.
So Rrford was wrong?

CC1
03-20-2007, 05:19 PM
I was talking to a lady at my job and asked her did she believe that Jesus is God, she said yes, but that she didn't believe the Holy Ghost was God.... :shifty Thought that one was kinda wierd cause even when I was trinitarian I was always told that the Holy Ghost was God's spirit....

Just goes to show you that you can find idiots in any job, religion, etc. That is about the craziest thing I have ever heard but I don't doubt it.

I personally know a backlid 40ish woman who was raised in one of the most pre-eminent UPC churches in America who made the statement to her daughter that the bible was WRITITEN BY KING JAMES and not God's word.

You just don't know whether to laugh or cry. I know the church she is out of and evidently her ears must have been plugged up because she sat under some great teaching and preaching.

OGIA
03-20-2007, 05:25 PM
I'm sure there are some acid trinitarians that believe when we get to Heaven, there will be a 3 way conversation happening at the throne. However, I've yet to run into any of them.When I first started posting on forums, I was a member of our local newspaper's forum. There was a man who claimed he was a "minister" of a local church here in our town. We began discussing the godhead, and, kid you not, when I asked him how many he'd see in heaven he said "Three." I then asked him who would we worship. He said "The Father." I asked him where Jesus and the Holy Ghost would be. He said, "I don't know. Maybe they'll be worshipping the Father WITH US"!!

:surrender

CC1
03-20-2007, 05:28 PM
When I first started posting on forums, I was a member of our local newspaper's forum. There was a man who claimed he was a "minister" of a local church here in our town. We began discussing the godhead, and, kid you not, when I asked him how many he'd see in heaven he said "Three." I then asked him who would we worship. He said "The Father." I asked him where Jesus and the Holy Ghost would be. He said, "I don't know. Maybe they'll be worshipping the Father WITH US"!!

:surrender

Sounds like he got his theological degree in the mail or from a cracker jacks box.

Hoovie
03-20-2007, 05:30 PM
When I first started posting on forums, I was a member of our local newspaper's forum. There was a man who claimed he was a "minister" of a local church here in our town. We began discussing the godhead, and, kid you not, when I asked him how many he'd see in heaven he said "Three." I then asked him who would we worship. He said "The Father." I asked him where Jesus and the Holy Ghost would be. He said, "I don't know. Maybe they'll be worshipping the Father WITH US"!!

:surrender

LOL! Of course that may have been a local atheist having fun with you!

OGIA
03-20-2007, 05:31 PM
LOL! Of course that may have been a local atheist having fun with you!
I don't think so. We debated/discussed for over 2 years. He KNEW the word, back and forth. He was quite good at what he knew, even if it was off a bit..........or a LOT in this case!

philjones
03-20-2007, 07:04 PM
Good post CC1,

I'm sure there are some acid trinitarians that believe when we get to Heaven, there will be a 3 way conversation happening at the throne. However, I've yet to run into any of them.

You probably need to get out more!:slaphappy :slaphappy

rrford
03-20-2007, 07:09 PM
You won't find Jakes Books at Lifeway.


Sure you can. Pleny of them.

http://www.lifewaystores.com/lwstore/DetailSearch.asp?mscssid=36MEU59X8SQ48P6TB86RJVN6L KF594F7

South of I 90
03-20-2007, 08:32 PM
Sure you can. Pleny of them.

http://www.lifewaystores.com/lwstore/DetailSearch.asp?mscssid=36MEU59X8SQ48P6TB86RJVN6L KF594F7

I stand to be corrected. At one time Lifeway did not carry "spirit filled" authors in there store!

Hey the SBC is coming our way!!!

philjones
03-20-2007, 08:36 PM
I stand to be corrected. At one time Lifeway did not carry "spirit filled" authors in there store!

Hey the SBC is coming our way!!!

Further evidence you need to get out more!:happydance :tiphat

Steve Epley
03-20-2007, 08:40 PM
I stand to be corrected. At one time Lifeway did not carry "spirit filled" authors in there store!

Hey the SBC is coming our way!!!

Now there is a thought and those Jews?:tiphat

slave4him
03-21-2007, 10:02 PM
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Wonder why this scripture comes to mind while reading this article.

berkeley
03-21-2007, 10:12 PM
I asked a 15 yr old Presbyterian boy "when you think of God, what comes to mind?" His answer "Jesus." I said "oh really?" He said, "yeah, I believe they are the same.."

I think a lot of people in trinitarian churches feel the same way. It's the learned trinitarians that attend seminary who are vehemently anti-oneness. JMO and observations.

rgcraig
06-24-2007, 08:35 PM
Bump

BTGAP MOM
08-07-2007, 02:05 PM
Just goes to show you that you can find idiots in any job, religion, etc. That is about the craziest thing I have ever heard but I don't doubt it.

I personally know a backlid 40ish woman who was raised in one of the most pre-eminent UPC churches in America who made the statement to her daughter that the bible was WRITITEN BY KING JAMES and not God's word.

You just don't know whether to laugh or cry. I know the church she is out of and evidently her ears must have been plugged up because she sat under some great teaching and preaching.


I would called them deceived or unlearned. Name calling is just ungodly! No need for it.

Doesn't win souls, and causes ill feelings.

Just my thoughts..no disrespect intended.

God Bless
Sis B

BTGAP MOM
08-07-2007, 02:28 PM
I was raised in a holiness baptist church ...and attended there for 29 years.

I was always taught that Jesus was God manifested in the flesh...John 1:1-14

Our Pastor at the time preached smoking, drinking and much more was a sin. He also had received tattoos while in the military and was convicted over them and had them sand papered off.

He was a very much believed in holiness inward and outward. He is the Pastor that married us. I shall never forget the meeting with him before we were married.

In 1994 our pastor died and the church voted on a new pastor.

The new pastor decided to teach the baptist "doctrine" to which I could find no evidence in the scriptures for several of his teachings...and questioned him on many of them...like once saved always saved...three persons...etc...

He did believe Jesus was God though. We had several conversations.

I was always taught that Jesus was God manifested in the flesh...John 1 1-14
Praise the Lord.

It wasn't long after this teaching we left my church home and God led us into this precious truth.

We were convicted and repented & were baptized in Jesus name. A few months later we received the power of the Holy Ghost just like Acts chapter 2states.

We have been allowed to go back and preach at that church and God saved and filled my Mom with the Holy Ghost before she passed away.

Praise the Lord, that preacher didn't last long down there.

14 years later I am still praying for my little baptist church.

I can remember when I was 6 or so, the first woman to cut her hair and wear red lipstick in the church. She was also the first to wear slacks in the church.
She didn't live long after that. No disrespect intended.

It was many years after that, when women started wearing slacks, make-up and lot's of jewelry and cutting their hair.

I believe it was because it simply was not being taught and preached about.

The church is now 135 years old. It is no longer a holiness church. They do still beleive in prayer, the laying on of hands, and that Jesus is God. Please pray for Caddo Prairie Baptist Church. They also believe in the Holy Ghost, they say they just haven't recived it yet. (Quoted from my Great Uncle Jim who has been in the ministry for 54 years.) He is now in his mid 80's.

God has been so good to me and my family and I give him all the glory and all the praise.

I pray in Jesus name I never take this precious truth for granted. I pray the Lord would draw with his spirit and save my family and reveal his complete truth to them. In Jesus name amen.

God Bless you all
Sister Bridges

probably should have posted this in the praise and prayer reports..sorry.

sola gratia
08-08-2007, 08:34 AM
Sis Bridges

By chance should you revisit this forum, and this thread... how come every post you offer says something about dress standards? You seem almost obsessed with them.....

Jack Shephard
08-08-2007, 02:16 PM
I agree that Jakes is oneness. Though it should not matter that much I guess. I think that because of his celebrity status of sorts that each side wants to claim him. Some want to shun him as well. I love the fact that there is such a popular Mand of God that is in the oneness ranks. The fact is that he preaches for both sides. I saw him preach in person once at a Trinitarian charasmatic church. He was good. Not the traditional Jakes, but yet was good. He brought out some great points and you could tell at the altar service was trying to lead people into receiving the HG.

I feel that it is because of people like Jakes, Noel Jones, even Steve Munsey among others that have helped to bridge the gap between the two sides. Even though we are not far apart to some we are light years away. These men have helped to bring the sides together, not in compromise, but in fellowship. Fellowship is the most important thing here. I know that Jakes may seem on the fence or on the other side to some people, but it is all about fellowship.

Fellowship is what the UPCI was all about in the first place. In the organization Jakes started, the Pater organization,or whatever, it is made up of both sides. They have found a way to be led and fellowship with out drawing lines in the sand and saying this is how it is. Cross this line and we are done or cross this line and that is the only way we can fellowship. Fellowship is coming together despite our differences. That is what AFF is about, right? I think that it is a great thing what Jakes and others are doing. I would say the samething if a true Trinitarian were doing the samething. JMHO

BTGAP MOM
08-08-2007, 05:21 PM
Sis Bridges

By chance should you revisit this forum, and this thread... how come every post you offer says something about dress standards? You seem almost obsessed with them.....


Thanks for checking out my post...hope you went and checked out our lil family gospel band too...on the music forum...

obsessed...nah...just know what I believe and why I believe it and sharing my thoughts as I am new to this forum.

Sorry if it offended you, that was not my intention..

God Bless
Sis B



BTW post 72 on Spiritual Warfare...had nothing to do with standards, nor did post 29 on Mature Audiences, nor post 3 on Spirits What are they......

I guess you didn't read all of my posts....

just trying to join in the threads...& share....

Have a good evening!

sola gratia
08-09-2007, 06:35 AM
Thanks for checking out my post...hope you went and checked out our lil family gospel band too...on the music forum...

obsessed...nah...just know what I believe and why I believe it and sharing my thoughts as I am new to this forum.

Sorry if it offended you, that was not my intention..

God Bless
Sis B



BTW post 72 on Spiritual Warfare...had nothing to do with standards, nor did post 29 on Mature Audiences, nor post 3 on Spirits What are they......

I guess you didn't read all of my posts....

just trying to join in the threads...& share....

Have a good evening!


no offense... hopefully I did not offend you as well... just seemed like a constant theme, or thought anyway... please share at will.....

Droug
08-10-2007, 03:49 AM
Fellowship is what the UPCI was all about in the first place.


This is my first post to this forum. I have enjoyed reading all the post for quite sometime now. It has been both a blessing and educational.

This one thread has really caught my attention. The one thing I do believe with out doubt is, HOW CAN YOU WIN A SOUL TO THE LORD IF YOU ARE NOT THEIR FRIEND? How do you make friends if you do not FELLOWSHIP?

Beating an ol bush to death, Jesus dined with sinners, He spent time with them. For what purpose? I would say He wanted to show them He loved them and wanted to be their Friend.

Now about FELLOWSHIP. I was raised UPCI from birth, and still am, my parents were not always pentecostal. I thank God for my heritage but I must say that we fall very short on FELLOWSHIP within our ranks.

If you don't look like me, don't talk like me, etc.... I can't associate with you, I might be defiled or something. This has got to stop! I know that in the times we live time is very precious but what is it all about anyway! My church has people that do not look the part, if you know what I mean, but they are loved just the same. There are churches in our ranks that call us charasmatic, but they have never FELLOWSHIPPED us! These people in our church are just as much a part of us as anyone else. But because they know the stance of our leadership, and they truly love everyone regardless of how they look, they are not involved in leadership positions. This what other churches do not see and understand.

Now how in the world are we going to win souls if we use this criteria in our midst. Sinners do not come off of the street looking all pentecostal and everything!! Folks if we do not open our eyes we are gonna have a lot of blood on our hands come judgement day!

I am sorry for rambling and I don't know if I really said it the way I really feel. I get so frustrated sometimes with issues and find it hard to put my feelings into words.

Folks we got to LOVE people as they are without judging them. Let God do His work!!!!

In Christ Love.

Jack Shephard
08-10-2007, 11:32 AM
Fellowship is what the UPCI was all about in the first place.


This is my first post to this forum. I have enjoyed reading all the post for quite sometime now. It has been both a blessing and educational.

This one thread has really caught my attention. The one thing I do believe with out doubt is, HOW CAN YOU WIN A SOUL TO THE LORD IF YOU ARE NOT THEIR FRIEND? How do you make friends if you do not FELLOWSHIP?

Beating an ol bush to death, Jesus dined with sinners, He spent time with them. For what purpose? I would say He wanted to show them He loved them and wanted to be their Friend.

Now about FELLOWSHIP. I was raised UPCI from birth, and still am, my parents were not always pentecostal. I thank God for my heritage but I must say that we fall very short on FELLOWSHIP within our ranks.

If you don't look like me, don't talk like me, etc.... I can't associate with you, I might be defiled or something. This has got to stop! I know that in the times we live time is very precious but what is it all about anyway! My church has people that do not look the part, if you know what I mean, but they are loved just the same. There are churches in our ranks that call us charasmatic, but they have never FELLOWSHIPPED us! These people in our church are just as much a part of us as anyone else. But because they know the stance of our leadership, and they truly love everyone regardless of how they look, they are not involved in leadership positions. This what other churches do not see and understand.

Now how in the world are we going to win souls if we use this criteria in our midst. Sinners do not come off of the street looking all pentecostal and everything!! Folks if we do not open our eyes we are gonna have a lot of blood on our hands come judgement day!

I am sorry for rambling and I don't know if I really said it the way I really feel. I get so frustrated sometimes with issues and find it hard to put my feelings into words.

Folks we got to LOVE people as they are without judging them. Let God do His work!!!!

In Christ Love.

Droug, good thoughts. I am with you on this matter. I am a Mod/Lib, but respect my Mod/Con Brothers and Sisters. I feel that the UPCI does a good job of saving face for somethings, NAYC, GC and a few others. But the real test is in the district. The UPC church I used to go to was considered liberal. No one fellowshipped us, except for a couple of churches. Those churches had to watch out though, because the would torn up by gossip for hanging with us. So they were close, but not too close.

I know there are people in this movement that would love to fellowship with others, Mods, Cons, and Libs alike. Though that does not happen consistantly. For me as I said I am more Mod/Lib that anything else. But I don't care if someone mistakes me for a Mod/Con because I hang and fellowship with them. I would hope they would feel the same, though they don't for the most part. There is a thin line between friends and fellowship. You can invite the Libs to Cons events, just to "save face." But the fact is that there is not a level playing field. I would like to feel that the Mod/Cons would strive for fellowship, but the fact of the matter is that, as it seems, they draw lines that we can not cross. You have to do these things, 1,2,3,4, or else we can not hang out. It should not be about acquiescing to someone beliefs it is holding on to your beliefism, but fellowshipping inspite of the differences.

Droug
08-10-2007, 08:58 PM
Droug, good thoughts. I am with you on this matter. I am a Mod/Lib, but respect my Mod/Con Brothers and Sisters. I feel that the UPCI does a good job of saving face for somethings, NAYC, GC and a few others. But the real test is in the district. The UPC church I used to go to was considered liberal. No one fellowshipped us, except for a couple of churches. Those churches had to watch out though, because the would torn up by gossip for hanging with us. So they were close, but not too close.

I know there are people in this movement that would love to fellowship with others, Mods, Cons, and Libs alike. Though that does not happen consistantly. For me as I said I am more Mod/Lib that anything else. But I don't care if someone mistakes me for a Mod/Con because I hang and fellowship with them. I would hope they would feel the same, though they don't for the most part. There is a thin line between friends and fellowship. You can invite the Libs to Cons events, just to "save face." But the fact is that there is not a level playing field. I would like to feel that the Mod/Cons would strive for fellowship, but the fact of the matter is that, as it seems, they draw lines that we can not cross. You have to do these things, 1,2,3,4, or else we can not hang out. It should not be about acquiescing to someone beliefs it is holding on to your beliefism, but fellowshipping inspite of the differences.

JTULLOCK, I guess what bothers me most is that people are so hung up on rules and regulations that they cannot let go and let God move.
You could say that I am a MOD. Some would say leaning to the LIB side, others would consider me CON. If people would get back to putting God first as they should, everything else would be non issues.
In the end, if you put everything at His Feet, a life pleasing to God is gonna be the result!!

In Christ Love!

Jack Shephard
08-10-2007, 11:36 PM
JTULLOCK, I guess what bothers me most is that people are so hung up on rules and regulations that they cannot let go and let God move.
You could say that I am a MOD. Some would say leaning to the LIB side, others would consider me CON. If people would get back to putting God first as they should, everything else would be non issues.
In the end, if you put everything at His Feet, a life pleasing to God is gonna be the result!!
In Christ Love!

Very well said!