View Full Version : Divorce - Adultery Thread
Rhoni
05-18-2008, 07:12 PM
I think you're on to something here. Women have really been pushing the envelope ever since the eruption of the feminist movement in the '60s. Women at large have been dragged slightly in the direction of the radicalized fringe, because the fringe sets the dialoge and tugs on the mainstream. Men have largely been set adrift during this time, some have learned how to (cynically) benefit from the new, liberated version of females, but most have been victims of the new paradigms in family law. In short, women have further to travel to come home to a biblical worldview for a woman's calling. Most women today have an exceedingly difficult time extracting themselves from the feminism because it has so diffused into our culture.
Yes, let's talk about family law that would burden a woman with all the children of the marriage union being dissolved with little to no child support that may or may not get paid forcing her into poverty, and having to work a minimum wage job, and go on food stamps while the High Priest of the home is out dating and having the time of his life: no wife, no kids, and no responsibility.
I do agree that men and women do not know their place due to war, and women have to go into the workplace to support their families, and wear pants to be more appropriately and modestly dressed to work in factories and such. And the men lost their control on the family when the woman had to support, discipline, and teach the children.
Furthermore, men have enjoyed letting their wives work so they can have off to go to campmeetings, preach in foreign countries, and let the local church take care of their families.
I was not implying or inferring either. What I got out of it was that you had a brief period during which you were evangelistic about large families. 99.9% of the women I have ever spoken to, no matter their religious affiliation, are rabidly defensive about their birth control. Even if they consider themselves "surrendered to God's will" in every other area of their lives. If you tell them they should have more babies, they are ready to take up arms and stage a one-woman shouting mob "civil rights" protest in the style of the best of the radical women's lib and planned parenthood activists.
Let's see how many men, in the same position as women, would enjoy spending their young years; pregnant, overweight, bloated, nausiated, exhausted, with gestational diabetes, and have their men tell them how beautiful other women are, as they clean house, wash, clothe, and feed a small army while the husbands wages aren't enough to feed two much less 7-10. Of course, in her spare time she can sew and make all her children's clothing, and go out and kill deer or alligators to make them shoes.:tic "Submission my eye"!
As a woman that birthed 9 babies I will tell any man that wants a LARGE family, DO IT YOUR SELF!!!!!!!!
:reaction :drama :toofunny
AMEN:happydance
Hah!
And as a woman who's birthed 4 babies, I'd love to have a few more. Any single guys out there want a really big family(hey, I'd be happy to stay at 4 if I must...)? lol
I know for a fact I'm not going to attempt to raise 5 kids by myself, 4 is really more than I can do. :(
Since more than 50% of first mariages end in divorce and an even higher percentage of 2nd marriages...chances are, Apostolic or not...the woman will be raising them by herself.
:reactionJust thought I'd add my $.02 since I have so many avid fans on this particular thread!
Blessings, Rhoni:tissue
OP_Carl
05-18-2008, 08:51 PM
There were only two Apostolic young people in our local High School. I was a freshman and the young man was a senior. At church he was always wanted to date me, but at school he was too embarassed to even say hello in the hallway since I was the only girl with a dress to my knees and my hair piled up in a bun on my head. There are very few outward evidences of men's separation as compared to women. Bro. OP here is talking about extremes not the norm.
The way I see it, you are too. Unless I misunderstand what you are saying.
Yes, let's talk about family law that would burden a woman with all the children of the marriage union being dissolved with little to no child support that may or may not get paid forcing her into poverty, and having to work a minimum wage job, and go on food stamps while the High Priest of the home is out dating and having the time of his life: no wife, no kids, and no responsibility. And do you even have an inkling what brought all of this upon our dear American society?
No-fault divorce law. There is no way you're going to drag me into this particular corner of your fantasy world. When a man with children gets divorced, he is completely at the mercy of his ex-wife. All it takes is a few little white lies and the police are there enforcing restraining orders, limiting custody and eliminating visitation. A woman can set the full spectrum of government machinery into motion against an ex-husband if she so desires, and their policies are to act first and worry about proof and probable cause later. A man is guilty of whatever the woman says he is guilty of until he is proven innocent. I have been very close to 3 cases like this. In one, the woman got tired of having to drive to the halfway point for visitation, so she lied about the man's treatment of the kids so the court would restrict his visitation rights and place the burden on him to make the full trip.
Let's see how many men, in the same position as women, would enjoy spending their young years; pregnant, overweight, bloated, nausiated, exhausted, with gestational diabetes, and have their men tell them how beautiful other women are, as they clean house, wash, clothe, and feed a small army while the husbands wages aren't enough to feed two much less 7-10. Of course, in her spare time she can sew and make all her children's clothing, and go out and kill deer or alligators to make them shoes.:tic "Submission my eye"!
Sour grapes?
This is largely an American phenomenon, the belief that people can get through their lives with a minimum of inconvenience, much less suffering. It's a shame how late in life some people end up accepting that it isn't God's plan for people, even the righteous, to go through their entire lives without hardship. Without hardship, faith is unproved. Proverbs 31 shows what a woman can do to gain esteem in her husband's eyes.
There is also much to be said for training girls in the art of the husband selection process.
You talking to me?:boxing:tic Are you waving your blessigns?
Since more than 50% of first mariages end in divorce and an even higher percentage of 2nd marriages...chances are, Apostolic or not...the woman will be raising them by herself. What is your source for this, Rhoni? I thought the accepted notion was 50% of ALL marriages, and that something along the line of 30% - 40% of FIRST marriages end in divorce. I think that the official party line is considerably bleaker than the true numbers revealed by some recent studies. First marriages in the church have a much better chance than those not in church, or second or third marriages.
stmatthew
05-18-2008, 11:59 PM
Since more than 50% of first mariages end in divorce and an even higher percentage of 2nd marriages...chances are, Apostolic or not...the woman will be raising them by herself.
:reactionJust thought I'd add my $.02 since I have so many avid fans on this particular thread!
Blessings, Rhoni:tissue
I would like to chime in on this thread, particularly this part of this post.
I think it is quite sad that divorce has become an option among apostolics. When I was married to my one and only wife some 20 years ago, I said "til death do us part", and I meant it. Now it has not been easy. We have lived through many troubled times. Jobs and no jobs. Hurt backs. Nervous breakdowns. Loosing everything and going bankrupt. My wife not working so she could homeschool our 3 kids (my oldest son just finished his first term in college with a 3.6 average:D). We have wept together. We have laughed together. But we have stayed together because there was not an option for anything else. Through all these trials and great tribulations, we love each other more than ever, simply because we choose to.
I understand that it was a 2 way street for my wife and I. We both were willing to walk this path together, and will continue to do so. I feel sad for those that had a spouse that chose to leave. But I refuse to raise my kids any other way than that marriage is for life.
Rhoni
05-19-2008, 05:17 AM
The way I see it, you are too. Unless I misunderstand what you are saying.
In the 1970's, 1980's, and early 1990's this was the norm. I have lost track with this in the last decade.
And do you even have an inkling what brought all of this upon our dear American society?
No-fault divorce law. There is no way you're going to drag me into this particular corner of your fantasy world.
This is uncalled for OP. I have always treated you and your posts with respect. My world has not, nor ever has been a life of fantasy...I have lived most of the things we discuss on this forum. I have also studied in 8 years of college and done the research on these matters because it affected me and I fell into the statistics.
When a man with children gets divorced, he is completely at the mercy of his ex-wife. All it takes is a few little white lies and the police are there enforcing restraining orders, limiting custody and eliminating visitation. A woman can set the full spectrum of government machinery into motion against an ex-husband if she so desires, and their policies are to act first and worry about proof and probable cause later. A man is guilty of whatever the woman says he is guilty of until he is proven innocent. I have been very close to 3 cases like this. In one, the woman got tired of having to drive to the halfway point for visitation, so she lied about the man's treatment of the kids so the court would restrict his visitation rights and place the burden on him to make the full trip.
I am sure you think these three cases are the norm but not in the cases I have seen and the families I have counseled. Judges aren't stupid. They hear this stuff all the time and they make decisions in the best interest of the chidlren regardless of the stupid things brought before them.**A man making the full trip to see his children...what an inconvenience and hardship for the man who should be supporting them financially 100%.***
Sour grapes?
No, been over mine a long time:)
This is largely an American phenomenon, the belief that people can get through their lives with a minimum of inconvenience, much less suffering. It's a shame how late in life some people end up accepting that it isn't God's plan for people, even the righteous, to go through their entire lives without hardship. Without hardship, faith is unproved. Proverbs 31 shows what a woman can do to gain esteem in her husband's eyes.
Why is it that women should have to do anything to gain esteem in their hsuband's eye? It is always the women doing and giving...what about what men should be doing to gain the respect of his wife and children?
There is also much to be said for training girls in the art of the husband selection process.
Are you waving your blessigns?
I thought it was the man that was supposed to find his wife...My Bible says, HE who finds a wife findeth a good thing. The training should go for young men and young women also.
What is your source for this, Rhoni? I thought the accepted notion was 50% of ALL marriages, and that something along the line of 30% - 40% of FIRST marriages end in divorce. I think that the official party line is considerably bleaker than the true numbers revealed by some recent studies. First marriages in the church have a much better chance than those not in church, or second or third marriages.
Accepted notions are not always facts...go to Barna research stats and you'll find all of which I speak.
You can passionately believe something only to find out you were passionately WRONG.
Blessings, Rhoni
Rhoni
05-19-2008, 05:21 AM
I would like to chime in on this thread, particularly this part of this post.
I think it is quite sad that divorce has become an option among apostolics. When I was married to my one and only wife some 20 years ago, I said "til death do us part", and I meant it. Now it has not been easy. We have lived through many troubled times. Jobs and no jobs. Hurt backs. Nervous breakdowns. Loosing everything and going bankrupt. My wife not working so she could homeschool our 3 kids (my oldest son just finished his first term in college with a 3.6 average:D). We have wept together. We have laughed together. But we have stayed together because there was not an option for anything else. Through all these trials and great tribulations, we love each other more than ever, simply because we choose to.
I understand that it was a 2 way street for my wife and I. We both were willing to walk this path together, and will continue to do so. I feel sad for those that had a spouse that chose to leave. But I refuse to raise my kids any other way than that marriage is for life.
I have the utmost respect for those who keep their commitments to God and each other. Thank-you for being a good example of how it should be done God's way.
Respectfully, Rhoni
Hoovie
05-19-2008, 05:47 AM
I would like to chime in on this thread, particularly this part of this post.
I think it is quite sad that divorce has become an option among apostolics. When I was married to my one and only wife some 20 years ago, I said "til death do us part", and I meant it. Now it has not been easy. We have lived through many troubled times. Jobs and no jobs. Hurt backs. Nervous breakdowns. Loosing everything and going bankrupt. My wife not working so she could homeschool our 3 kids (my oldest son just finished his first term in college with a 3.6 average:D). We have wept together. We have laughed together. But we have stayed together because there was not an option for anything else. Through all these trials and great tribulations, we love each other more than ever, simply because we choose to.
I understand that it was a 2 way street for my wife and I. We both were willing to walk this path together, and will continue to do so. I feel sad for those that had a spouse that chose to leave. But I refuse to raise my kids any other way than that marriage is for life.
Great Post St Matt!
Two thoughts on divorce from a person who has been married to the same person for a little over 50 years.
1. Some times divorce is good and the only real sensible action to be taken. Years ago there were women who remained in marriages because of social pressure, etc. even though they were abused. This some times still happens. I have talked to women who had been married to men who were abusive and who did not fulfill their obligation as a father, husband, provider, etc. Pastors and family members would tell them that the only recourse they had was to remain in the marriage, submit to the man, and pray for him.
2. The other extreme is marriages which seem to be entered into lightly, almost like "going steady" among teenagers. Seems like some think, "Well, we'll try this and see if it works out." I remember something that someone told my wife a few years ago. This woman's daughter was going through a second divorce. When the mother questioned it, the daughter responded, "Well, I'm looking for a marriage like you and Dad had." The mother responded, "Well, you might have had a marriage like that if you'd given it more time."
This is how Deuteronomy 24:1-4 reads in the Dead Sea scrolls:
1 If a man takes a wife and marries her, but she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found something objectionable about her, then he shall write her a bill of divorce and put it in her hand and send her from his house. 2 She may then go and be another man’s wife, 3 And if the latter husband who took her to be his wife dislikes her and writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her from his house, or if the latter husband who took her to be his wife dies, 4 her former husband who had sent her away, cannot take her again to be his wife after she has been defiled. For that is an abomination before the Lord; you shall not bring sin upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
The Septuagint, some times called the LXX, is the ancient Greek version of the Hebrew Scriptures translated by a number of different Jewish scholars over the course of the third, second, and first centuries BC. The LXX was the Scriptures that the Apostles used in their writings which became our New Testament. Here is how Deut 24:1-4 reads in the LXX (Apostolic Bible Polyglot First Edition copyright 1996)
1 And if any take a woman and should live with her, and it shall be if she should not find favor before him, for he finds in her an indecent thing, then he shall write to her a certificate of divorce scroll, and he shall put it into her hands and he shall send her from out of his house. 2 And going forth, should she become another man’s wife, 3 and the last husband should detest her, and should write to her a certificate of divorce scroll, and he should put it into her hands, and send her from out of his house or her last husband should die who took her to himself as wife; 4 the former husband sending her out shall not be able to return to take her to himself for a wife after her being defiled; for it is an abomination before the Lord your God, and you shall not defile the land which the Lord your God gives to you by lot.
The Complete Apostle’s Bible, copyright 2003 uses the term “unbecoming thing” instead of “indecent thing” like the version above.
As Hebrew became more unfamiliar with people, it became the custom for a person to give a paraphrase in Aramaic for the Scripture that had been read aloud in Hebrew. This paraphrase was called a Targum. Something like this took place in Nehemiah 8:1-8. At first a targum could not be written down but memorized. Later they were written out. Here is how a targum of Deuteronomy 24:1-4 reads. Note that the verses are not numbered:
When a man hath taken a wife and gone unto her, if she hath not favour in his eyes because he findeth the thing that is wrong in her, then he may write her a bill of divorce before the court of justice, and put it into her power, and send her away from his house. And departing from his house she may go and marry another man. But should they proclaim from the heavens about her that the latter husband shall dislike her, and write her a bill of divorce, and put it into her power to go from his house; or should they proclaim about him that lie the latter husband shall die: it shall not be in the power of the first husband who dismissed her at the beginning to return and take her to be with him as his wife, after that she hath been defiled; for that is an abomination before the Lord: for the children whom she might bear should not be made abominable, or the land which the Lord your God giveth you to inherit become obnoxious to the plague.
The above three readings can give us an idea of how the Jewish people understood what is called Deuteronomy 24:1-4 in our Bibles around the time of the establishment of the New Testament Church. In each case divorce was permitted if the husband found something “objectionable about her” (Dead Seas Scroll), or “an indecent thing” (LXX), or “an unbecoming thing” (LXX) or “a thing that is wrong” (Targum). This would not be divorce because of adultery because the penalty for that was death. This “unbecoming thing” had become pretty loose interpreted around the first century BC and AD and divorce was allowed if the man found someone he liked better or if the wife’s voice could be heard by the neighbors or basically if the husband felt like something was the matter with her.
The following is from a current Jewish version of the Old Testament
Deuteronomy 24
Jewish Publication Society Tanakh (1917)
1 When a man taketh a wife, and marrieth her, then it cometh to pass, if she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some unseemly thing in her, that he writeth her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house, 2 and she departeth out of his house, and goeth and becometh another man's wife, 3 and the latter husband hateth her, and writeth her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, who took her to be his wife; 4 her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD; and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
I just included these verses to show that the Jewish people and therefore the early Christians had a more liberal view of divorce and remarriage than many of us have today.
ForeverBlessed
05-19-2008, 08:18 AM
This is how Deuteronomy 24:1-4 reads in the Dead Sea scrolls:
1 If a man takes a wife and marries her, but she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found something objectionable about her, then he shall write her a bill of divorce and put it in her hand and send her from his house. 2 She may then go and be another man’s wife, 3 And if the latter husband who took her to be his wife dislikes her and writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her from his house, or if the latter husband who took her to be his wife dies, 4 her former husband who had sent her away, cannot take her again to be his wife after she has been defiled. For that is an abomination before the Lord; you shall not bring sin upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
I just included these verses to show that the Jewish people and therefore the early Christians had a more liberal view of divorce and remarriage than many of us have today.
They did have a more liberal view...but this is what Jesus had to say on the subject.
Matthew 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. 7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? 8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Mrs. LPW
05-19-2008, 08:26 AM
We often think living under the law was the harder thing to do... we forget that when Jesus came he said, not only is it wrong to commit adultery, if you even look on a woman to lust you have already committed it in your heart....
In that same sermon Jesus also raised the bar on divorce and remarriage.
Matthew 5
31
It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery
Fact is.. under this new convenent of Grace, Jesus raised the bar.. and so Grace and Truth work together.
In this new testement, the question is no longer, what can I do to the letter and what can I get away with. The question is... what can I do above and beyond what is required to please the one who left all and died for my sins...
I don't deserve happiness in life, I don't deserve peace in life... I don't deserve God's love in my life.. I deserve death and hell.
The humanistic cry of today is "Do what you need to do to be happy"
But.. that's another sermon for another thread.
(Disclaimer: Mrs. LPW has already made it plain in previous threads that she is not anti-divorce in some circumstances, but is very much pro-marriage)
Divorce is not in the plans of God ... for what it's worth. God hates it because he wants the best for us.
OP Carl I have to agree that one of the worst things that has happened in America is no-fault divorce ... however I do believe there is systemic sexism engrained in tradtional OP circles that is not rooted in biblical principles but woven into the fixation w/ a snapshot of time ... specifically the early part of last century.
Sexism is just not thinking one is superior to the other gender but to have distorted views of the roles of the other gender ... such as having warped values attached to the other gender that are not healthy or realistic or culturally accepted.
As generations get more removed of the Norman Rockell painting idol that is reified at the altar of holimess dress theology ... this paradigm will seem more and more extreme, archaic and out of touch.
Baron1710
05-19-2008, 09:22 AM
Divorce is not in the plans of God ... for what it's worth. OP Carl I have to agree that one of the worst things that has happened in American is no-fault divorce ... however believe there is systemic sexism engrained in tradtional OP circles that is not rooted in biblical principles but woven into the fixation w/ a snapshot of time ... specifically the early part of last century.
As generations get more removed of the Norman Rockell painting idol that is reified at the altar of Holimess theology.
Dan, can you tell me why you think no fault divorce is worse than fault based divorce?
rgcraig
05-19-2008, 09:27 AM
Dan, can you tell me why you think no fault divorce is worse than fault based divorce?
I'm not Dan, but I'll tell you what I think. With no fault divorce you can be divorced just because you are bored or tired of working on your marriage. If they had to have a fault based divorce it would eliminate the ones that just want to get divorced because they can or want to try someone different. Also, no fault divorce affects the financial piece of the divorce.
However, I believe that there's a increase in fault based divorces too, so it might not actually affect the percentages that much.
I married for life too, but that all changed.
MissBrattified
05-19-2008, 09:29 AM
Dan, can you tell me why you think no fault divorce is worse than fault based divorce?
I'm not Dan, but....
To me, a "no-fault" divorce says, "We both just gave up."
Marriage is a promise to stay together no matter what. That promise should be kept.
I don't believe in the "I don't love you anymore" excuse. Love is an action verb, and a choice.
At least if there's a "fault" there's a reason (whether its a good one or not is another matter). Divorcing is breaking a promise, and if it does have to be done, it ought to be for a good reason.
MissBrattified
05-19-2008, 09:31 AM
I'm not Dan, but
:D
I'll tell you what I think. With no fault divorce you can be divorced just because you are bored or tired of working on your marriage. If they had to have a fault based divorce it would eliminate the ones that just want to get divorced because they can or want to try someone different.
I completely agree. It's the lazy way out, IMO.
I'm not Dan, but....
To me, a "no-fault" divorce says, "We both just gave up."
Marriage is a promise to stay together no matter what. That promise should be kept.
I don't believe in the "I don't love you anymore" excuse. Love is an action verb, and a choice.
At least if there's a "fault" there's a reason (whether its a good one or not is another matter). Divorcing is breaking a promise, and if it does have to be done, it ought to be for a good reason.
Absolutely Renda and Ms. B ... it also tells the parties that we don't have to have legitimate reasons to end this ... or work this out ... I'm just out because I can.
I know that courts mandate counseling and other nominal programs at times before granting the divorce but it's just way too easy ...
Marraige is for life and for what it's worth I was committed to that until the very, very end until I had to protect myself legally and seek the best for my kids....
Love is an action verb, and a choice.
That's exactly what it is ....
Baron1710
05-19-2008, 09:42 AM
I'm not Dan, but I'll tell you what I think. With no fault divorce you can be divorced just because you are bored or tired of working on your marriage. If they had to have a fault based divorce it would eliminate the ones that just want to get divorced because they can or want to try someone different. Also, no fault divorce affects the financial piece of the divorce.
However, I believe that there's a increase in fault based divorces too, so it might not actually affect the percentages that much.
I married for life too, but that all changed.
I understand what you are saying, but not sure if the problem is no fault divorce. The argument in favor of no fault divorce is that you don't have to drag someone through the mud to get the divorce.
What did you mean by the bolded statement?
Standards were "taught", but you could not ask questions about them. I could go on and on and on, but I don't have the time or the energy.
What's interesting is that when it is taught ... of course using pre-texts and faulty history ...
It's also taught with an inordinate focus on woman as a matter of submission. How many times does the topic of standards in women's conference when going into dressing modestly or not cutting your hair, or being in Pentecostal burka-mode, that it is a sign of submitting to your husband.
The uncut hair doctrine is centered on this premise. I absolutely believe in the Godly order of things ... men are the head of their homes ... that's biblical ...
but when dozens, perhaps hundreds, of couples argued yesterday before going to church over whether or not her dress was too short to go to church that way ... or "you are wearing too much blush".... or that she needs to put her hair up because everyone is going to find out that she trimmed it ... the issue usually boils down to the husband feeling his authority has been compromised because she won't comply.
The woman becomes the rebel ... who is not submitting ... Why? Because she wanted to get fixed up?
It's no longer an issue of being holy unto God but rather the trophy of religious extrabiblical doctrine and systemic sexism that is traced to the view of women a century ago.
rgcraig
05-19-2008, 09:48 AM
I understand what you are saying, but not sure if the problem is no fault divorce. The argument in favor of no fault divorce is that you don't have to drag someone through the mud to get the divorce.
What did you mean by the bolded statement?
It could be different from state to state, but even though there was cause (or fault) in my divorce the financial piece of it was 50/50 because of the no fault rule. I wasn't able to get more money even though he was at fault.
I actually had a good amount in my 401(k) because I had always been steadily employed. If it wasn't for the grace of God I would have had to split that with him when he was at fault. It was nothing more than a miracle!
stmatthew
05-19-2008, 09:50 AM
What's interesting is that when it is taught ... of course using pre-texts and faulty history ...
It's also taught with an inordinate focus on woman as a matter of submission. How many times does the topic of standards in women's conference goes into dressing modestly or not cutting your hair, or in Pentecostal burka-mode, is a sign of submitting to your husband.
The uncut hair doctrine is centered on this premise. I absolutely believe in the Godly order of things ... men are the head of their homes ... that's biblical ...
but when dozens, perhaps hundreds, of couples argued yesterday before going to church over whether or not her dress was too short to go to church that way ... or "you are wearing too much blush".... or that she needs to put her hair up because everyone is going to find out that she trimmed it ... the issue usually boils down to the husband feeling his authority has been compromised because she won't comply.
The woman becomes the rebel ... who is not submitting ...
It's no longer an issue of being holy unto God but rather the trophy of religious extrabiblical doctrine and systemic sexism that is traced to the view of women a century ago.
Surely UPCI women don't wear blush!!!! That is makeup!!!!! :reaction
Baron1710
05-19-2008, 09:50 AM
It could be different from state to state, but even though there was cause (or fault) in my divorce the financial piece of it was 50/50 because of the no fault. I wasn't able to get more money even though he was at fault.
This does vary by state. In NC for example adultery is a complete bar to alimony, even though it’s no fault. In DC fault basis is taken into consideration when determining alimony even though it is no fault.
And Carl,
The best way to know whether or not people think you're a Pentecostal male because you're clean shaven and wear long sleeves is the practical but always effective WAL-MART TEST.
Go into Wal-mart, strut your wears and ask, "What religion am I?"
Some will think you are a fuddy-duddy Baptist, a Mormon or a Wiccan ...
Don't fool yourself, Carl ... you look like most men in the general population ... your age .... at Wal-mart.
Furthermore ... for someone concerned about the feminization of the Apostolic liturgical service ... there was a time ... for millenias ... that wearing a beard was the height of being masculine and shameful/effiminate if you did not wear one.
But take a traditionally dressed OP woman into Wal-mart and you will get ...
"She's one of those ..."
nahkoe
05-19-2008, 09:59 AM
Absolutely Renda and Ms. B ... it also tells the parties that we don't have to have legitimate reasons to end this ... or work this out ... I'm just out because I can.
I know that courts mandate counseling and other nominal programs at times before granting the divorce but it's just way too easy ...
Marraige is for life and for what it's worth I was committed to that until the very, very end until I had to protect myself legally and seek the best for my kids....
Me too. I was willing to do some things that in retrospect would have been very, very bad for me to do. It was only when he made it clear even those concessions weren't going to work, and then absolutely when I had to leave the house for my own safety, that the divorce (no fault btw) happened. I should have signed the papers a lot sooner than I did, and that's saying something since it was 2 months from the time we separated until the divorce was final. I had to protect myself and my children legally, and the divorce paperwork was the only avenue to do that.
Cindy
05-19-2008, 10:21 AM
I really hope you mean I might find a spouse, not I might raise 5 kids alone. lol
And, why would moving to Texas increase the chances of this? Now you have me curious. :toofunny
It seems to be the norm in some parts of Texas now an upswing in large families. And yes I did mean I hope you find a very loving husband. And remember just because a man is wearing boots and a hat doesn't mean he's a true cowboy.
Encryptus
05-19-2008, 10:23 AM
It seems to be the norm in some parts of Texas now an upswing in large families. And yes I did mean I hope you find a very loving husband. And remember just because a man is wearing boots and a hat doesn't mean he's a true cowboy.
Helps improve the odds if you speak Spanish though
:bliss
nahkoe
05-19-2008, 10:40 AM
It seems to be the norm in some parts of Texas now an upswing in large families. And yes I did mean I hope you find a very loving husband. And remember just because a man is wearing boots and a hat doesn't mean he's a true cowboy.
I grew up around those sort of non-cowboys, and the real ones too. :) I think I can sort that much out. lol
A loving husband...would be interesting. I think I could handle that.
nahkoe
05-19-2008, 10:41 AM
Helps improve the odds if you speak Spanish though
:bliss
I used to, does that count? lol (spent a few weeks in Mexico when I was 18, understood well enough to translate btwn English and Spanish..oh the things a person can forget in a few years tho...lol)
I've taken half a semester of college Spanish now. Will be taking a 5 credit Spanish class after I move too, or I think at least.
Cindy
05-19-2008, 10:43 AM
I grew up around those sort of non-cowboys, and the real ones too. :) I think I can sort that much out. lol
A loving husband...would be interesting. I think I could handle that.
In the Baptist church one of my kids and his family attend they really stress the importance of biblical families where Jesus is the head of the family.
ForeverBlessed
05-19-2008, 10:43 AM
It could be different from state to state, but even though there was cause (or fault) in my divorce the financial piece of it was 50/50 because of the no fault rule. I wasn't able to get more money even though he was at fault.
I actually had a good amount in my 401(k) because I had always been steadily employed. If it wasn't for the grace of God I would have had to split that with him when he was at fault. It was nothing more than a miracle!
That is the way it was here too Renda… no fault, but every thing is split.
Sounds like God was with you too! Divorce is so sad and often long and drawn out.
I had inherited my home… my attorney warned me going in.. I could by law lose ½ half of it. He said really the best case scenario was that I could stay in the home until I raised the girls, then I would have to sell and give him his percentage. I wanted to protect my girls… I just couldn’t see my sharing custody… I had a long wish list for my attorney…he told me once I was asking for too much.
I prayed that God would be my lawyer in that courtroom… but I needed a certain judge in our county who I knew was familiar with my ex husband… I knew that he would look at the whole picture. I felt he would be the most compassionate. I informed my attorney that I needed this certain judge… he said it was 1 in 5 chance…
Here in our County, when the attorney filed for the divorce, the judge is randomly chosen…by all things but a colored golf tee… my attorney asked me if I had been praying… Oh yeah, I was standing there praying as well. I started crying when the clerk pulled out a golf tee in the color of the Judge I needed.
I was awarded everything, house, both his and my vehicles, full custody of the girls, no visitation unless I granted it… the judge imposed far greater restrictions than I even asked for in the divorce. My attorney told me that was the quickest divorce he had ever seen…(less than 30 min) He was shocked at the outcome.
The divorce truly wasn’t a “no fault”, and God was my attorney that day.
Anyone who knows me though realizes that I have bent over backwards to help my ex husband since our divorce… but believe me, at the time of a the divorce, he was mixed up and with a woman who wanted everything she could get her hands on.
I used to, does that count? lol (spent a few weeks in Mexico when I was 18, understood well enough to translate btwn English and Spanish..oh the things a person can forget in a few years tho...lol)
I've taken half a semester of college Spanish now. Will be taking a 5 credit Spanish class after I move too, or I think at least.
Well, when it comes to, "Hey babe! I think you are one hot momma!", and, "All right, Big Daddy!", ya don't need words to make yer point! :lol Love don't need no stinkin words!! :D
Surely UPCI women don't wear blush!!!! That is makeup!!!!! :reaction
Of course they do ... Matt ...
Let's be real. And yes it's make-up.
Rhoni
05-19-2008, 11:03 AM
Dan, can you tell me why you think no fault divorce is worse than fault based divorce?
TO OBTAIN A DIVORCE prior to no-fault you had to prove adultery which means hire aprivate investigater and run the other spouse through the mud before even being allowed a court date much less a divorce.
After no-fault you can get a divorce in anywhere from 30-90 days withoput proving anything. This traumatically :( increased the avaiability and affordability of a divorce. OP is correct that this was the beginning of the rise of divorce in the United States.
Baron1710
05-19-2008, 11:10 AM
TO OBTAIN A DIVORCE prior to no-fault you had to prove adultery which means hire aprivate investigater and run the other spouse through the mud before even being allowed a court date much less a divorce.
After no-fault you can get a divorce in anywhere from 30-90 days withoput proving anything. This traumatically :( increased the avaiability and affordability of a divorce. OP is correct that this was the beginning of the rise of divorce in the United States.
There are other fault based reasons besides adultery, such as abandonment, Habitual drunkenness, etc.
Just because no fault availability roughly corresponds to the rise in divorce doesn't mean the no fault divorce is the cause. It could be the other way around. Or they may have no connection at all. It could be like drowning going up when people buy more Coke. The heat causes people to drink more Coke and spend more time in the water. But the purchase of Coke has nothing to do with drowning.
rgcraig
05-19-2008, 11:14 AM
Lisa!!!
That sounds just about like what I went through! My mentor and friend went with me to court and was praying the whole time! I also was fortunate to get the "right" judge. I was prepared as well as my attorney - I had everything I needed at my fingertips should he ask for anything.
My ex was answering a question posed by the judge and going on a wild goose chase and the judge looked at him and said, "I know your type". You don't have the answer, sit down, Mrs. Craig do you have the answer to this question. The blood drained from my face and I saw my heartbeat in my chest as I stood up and said, "yes, your honor" and I handed him the records of where my ex had taken $30K out of our home equity line of credit AFTER the papers were signed that should have stopped anything like that.
He was toast after that - - - the judge told me to go sit down I didn't have to say another word.
He stood my ex up and read him the act - - it was such a GOD thing!!!! Oh, the stories I could tell.
I can be driving down the road and the thought goes through my mind how God orchestrated all that and I have to give him thanks over and over again.
Rhoni
05-19-2008, 11:21 AM
With my divorce and being married 15 years, and two children I was not granted nor did I even think to ask for alimony even though I had to be retrained/re-educated to enter the work force.
Our separation was for over a year because I had an outstanding lawsuit and he wanted part of the money. After I received the money he wanted to know the amount and wanted a % of the money but the judge denied him both.
I was physically handicapped, with custody of both children, in college, and working a minimum wage job when our divorce was final. Because he kept trying to regain custody after remarriage 8 months later, the judge made us go to counseling on how not to put the children in the middle. It didn't change anything.
He filed bankruptcy, and I was left to pay his debts because I refused to file. I paid $20,000.00 of his tax lien and they sent the refund check to him because I overpaid. He would not sign it unless I gave him half [mind you I paid it all myself and it was his taxes] and I was so desperate for gas and groceries that I agreed.
I filed a lawsuit to recoup my money and was granted a judgement against him for the total and he went to his church and told them that I was the only one he refused to pay and that he was going to file bankruptcy against the debt he owed me. The church [about 35 people] voted that he could do this and he did. I had to pull my children out of a Christian/Apostolic school because of this.
The courts could not attached his wages for child support because he was a minister and self-employed. He was late weeks, and months at a time paying and by the time we'd go to court he'd pay it before the hearing and tell the judge it was paid.
When I signed for Him to have physical custody of our youngest son at 15 years of age because it was his[my son's request] request, he said he wouldn't require me to pay child support. My attorney and I talked it over and I chose to pay support [my oldest was married]. I was late one time and he filed to attach my wages. I was gainfully employed.
When my son called my attorney choosing to come back to live with Momma about 18 months later for his last two years of high school, I took custody back and did not require my ex to pay child support. When my son was emancipated at 18 when he was on his own, my ex tried to get another $500.00 from me. It was researched and he owed me money from the summer months I continues to pay full support although my son was with me in Florida.
I think I know a little about the Family Law system in America.
Rhoni
05-19-2008, 11:24 AM
There are other fault based reasons besides adultery, such as abandonment, Habitual drunkenness, etc.
Just because no fault availability roughly corresponds to the rise in divorce doesn't mean the no fault divorce is the cause. It could be the other way around. Or they may have no connection at all. It could be like drowning going up when people buy more Coke. The heat causes people to drink more Coke and spend more time in the water. But the purchase of Coke has nothing to do with drowning.
It might not be the actual cause but it makes it much easier to divorce on a wim and let the chips fall where they may.
dizzyde
05-19-2008, 11:35 AM
There are other fault based reasons besides adultery, such as abandonment, Habitual drunkenness, etc.
THANK YOU!!!!!
:amen
And just for the record, yes, that is exactly what the no-fault divorce did, enable lazy people to get out marriages they were tired of, easily... :blah :blah
OR, it enabled women who were trapped in horrible marriages with no financial means of hiring an attorney to fight out protracted he said/she said divorces, a way to get out of abusive situations and get on with/save their lives.
It is really all a matter of perspective, and unless you have ever lived through any of these situations, perhaps it is unwise to spout off your opinion about it...
ForeverBlessed
05-19-2008, 11:36 AM
Lisa!!!
That sounds just about like what I went through! My mentor and friend went with me to court and was praying the whole time! I also was fortunate to get the "right" judge. I was prepared as well as my attorney - I had everything I needed at my fingertips should he ask for anything.
My ex was answering a question posed by the judge and going on a wild goose chase and the judge looked at him and said, "I know your type". You don't have the answer, sit down, Mrs. Craig do you have the answer to this question. The blood drained from my face and I saw my heartbeat in my chest as I stood up and said, "yes, your honor" and I handed him the records of where my ex had taken $30K out of our home equity line of credit AFTER the papers were signed that should have stopped anything like that.
He was toast after that - - - the judge told me to go sit down I didn't have to say another word.
He stood my ex up and read him the act - - it was such a GOD thing!!!! Oh, the stories I could tell.
I can be driving down the road and the thought goes through my mind how God orchestrated all that and I have to give him thanks over and over again.
I bet you do have stories to tell.. God heard our prayers..
I went to court prepared too…but the judge didn’t even question the fact I wanted all vehicles.. My attorney thought I was being mean for asking for his Truck too… but went along with what I asked. I provided proof that we had just purchased it through a home equity loan…and who do you think was making the home equity loan payment? It was worth three times what my minivan was..and I was tired of seeing her drive it all over town. :-)
I’m telling you it was a matter of the judge signing…my attorney started in with the case in my defense and the judge held up his hand and said “I familiar with Mr. Taylor, don't need to say anymore” then he asked me some personal questions… added more restrictions concerning our children and signed it.
I agree with you... God moved on our behalf… he was with us both.
God moved on my heart sometime later… I gave them the mini van and bought myself a new car… but that was after God had blessed me with a good job and I had gotten on my feet. Divorce can just about devastate a family financially… never happens at a good time.
rgcraig
05-19-2008, 11:51 AM
I bet you do have stories to tell.. God heard our prayers..
I went to court prepared too…but the judge didn’t even question the fact I wanted all vehicles.. My attorney thought I was being mean for asking for his Truck too… but went along with what I asked. I provided proof that we had just purchased it through a home equity loan…and who do you think was making the home equity loan payment? It was worth three times what my minivan was..and I was tired of seeing her drive it all over town. :-)
I’m telling you it was a matter of the judge signing…my attorney started in with the case in my defense and the judge held up his hand and said “I familiar with Mr. Taylor, don't need to say anymore” then he asked me some personal questions… added more restrictions concerning our children and signed it.
I agree with you... God moved on our behalf… he was with us both.
God moved on my heart sometime later… I gave them the mini van and bought myself a new car… but that was after God had blessed me with a good job and I had gotten on my feet. Divorce can just about devastate a family financially… never happens at a good time.
Amen!
Yes, financially it's very devastating, but I will say even though things aren't perfect, I feel blessed!
Rhoni
05-19-2008, 12:38 PM
How did this thread turn into a divorce thread?
Oh, never mind - it was Rhoni!
Renda, I am surprise at you...I didn't start that topic..OP did!:tissue
rgcraig
05-19-2008, 01:03 PM
Renda, I am surprise at you...I didn't start that topic..OP did!:tissue
Lol - I just saw your long response and thought that was the first divorce was mentioned. I thought OP was talking about raising children alone.
OP_Carl
05-19-2008, 07:57 PM
This is uncalled for OP. I have always treated you and your posts with respect. My world has not, nor ever has been a life of fantasy...I have lived most of the things we discuss on this forum. I have also studied in 8 years of college and done the research on these matters because it affected me and I fell into the statistics.
Accepted notions are not always facts...go to Barna research stats and you'll find all of which I speak.
You can passionately believe something only to find out you were passionately WRONG.
Blessings, Rhoni
Rhoni,
I'm sorry that my wording was over the top. I hope you know that I always look foward to reading your posts.
It's just that you painted a picture of the divorced man living a liberated carefree life and the divorced woman shackled to a life of single parenthood, drudgery, and poverty. I can not and will not accept this as the only or final page in the book. Unless the man can go underground and acquire forged ID papers, it is very rare that any portion of the criminal justice and legal systems will give him favorable treatment. Half the assets, court fees, child support, maybe alimony on top of all that is not what I call getting off scot-free.
I recognize that there is a real problem of the deadbeat that either has nothing or conceals his post-divorce income. I recognize that men are abusive, and are more prone to adultery.
I hope you recognize that our present-day justice system is now set up to come down on the husband and ex-husband like a ton of bricks.
Most of the time, the woman decides the terms and the extent of the man's remaining rights. The woman lawyers coach the women in what to say to the judges so they initiate key limitations or actions.
If the woman calls the police over a few times, perhaps during an argument, then that establishes a pattern of abuse, real or contrived. If she alleges that he might have had inappropriate contact with the children, that activates ANOTHER huge bank of justice machinery. And that's DEFINITELY the side where the man is guilty until proven innocent.
Still friendly, and still enjoy discussing things with you,
Carl
Rhoni
05-20-2008, 05:08 AM
Rhoni,
I'm sorry that my wording was over the top. I hope you know that I always look foward to reading your posts.
It's just that you painted a picture of the divorced man living a liberated carefree life and the divorced woman shackled to a life of single parenthood, drudgery, and poverty. I can not and will not accept this as the only or final page in the book. Unless the man can go underground and acquire forged ID papers, it is very rare that any portion of the criminal justice and legal systems will give him favorable treatment. Half the assets, court fees, child support, maybe alimony on top of all that is not what I call getting off scot-free.
I recognize that there is a real problem of the deadbeat that either has nothing or conceals his post-divorce income. I recognize that men are abusive, and are more prone to adultery.
I hope you recognize that our present-day justice system is now set up to come down on the husband and ex-husband like a ton of bricks.
Most of the time, the woman decides the terms and the extent of the man's remaining rights. The woman lawyers coach the women in what to say to the judges so they initiate key limitations or actions.
If the woman calls the police over a few times, perhaps during an argument, then that establishes a pattern of abuse, real or contrived. If she alleges that he might have had inappropriate contact with the children, that activates ANOTHER huge bank of justice machinery. And that's DEFINITELY the side where the man is guilty until proven innocent.
Still friendly, and still enjoy discussing things with you,
Carl
Dear OP,
You and I both speak from the experience from the different side of the coin. Of course my personal view is slanted but is far from a fantasy which was the only problem I had with your post. I live in reality and it is not very pretty for the most part. I would not agree with you that it is always slanted againt the male.
Blessings, Rhoni
ForeverBlessed
05-20-2008, 09:14 AM
Rhoni,
I'm sorry that my wording was over the top. I hope you know that I always look foward to reading your posts.
It's just that you painted a picture of the divorced man living a liberated carefree life and the divorced woman shackled to a life of single parenthood, drudgery, and poverty. I can not and will not accept this as the only or final page in the book. Unless the man can go underground and acquire forged ID papers, it is very rare that any portion of the criminal justice and legal systems will give him favorable treatment. Half the assets, court fees, child support, maybe alimony on top of all that is not what I call getting off scot-free.
I recognize that there is a real problem of the deadbeat that either has nothing or conceals his post-divorce income. I recognize that men are abusive, and are more prone to adultery.
I hope you recognize that our present-day justice system is now set up to come down on the husband and ex-husband like a ton of bricks.Most of the time, the woman decides the terms and the extent of the man's remaining rights. The woman lawyers coach the women in what to say to the judges so they initiate key limitations or actions.
If the woman calls the police over a few times, perhaps during an argument, then that establishes a pattern of abuse, real or contrived. If she alleges that he might have had inappropriate contact with the children, that activates ANOTHER huge bank of justice machinery. And that's DEFINITELY the side where the man is guilty until proven innocent.
Still friendly, and still enjoy discussing things with you,
Carl
you obviously have never lived through this. I am sure there are some fathers who are held accountible through the system. I can give you a total different story and many others I know... I know countless single mothers that have to fight for every dime they get and most of their ex's money is hid through/with girlfriends or new wives.
My ex husband spent 1 year in work release center for non child support... our county is considered one of the toughest counties in this State on Child Support... I have proof of every support payment ever paid... less than $4K of child support on three kids over the last six years. The County let him live in a work release facility and pay me only $20 a week while he faithfully supported and put a roof over his girlfriend.. while she sat at home doing nothing.
You really have absolutely no clue... and no, he wasn't underground. The majority of the last six years, he has lived within a mile of me... except for the times he's been incarcerated.
OpieCarl,
Actually I believe recent research has shown that women are more prone to commit adultery than men.
I read one study that says 50% of married women cheat. I find that hard to beleive. Perhaps the survey was done in the godless NorthEast USA or California!!!!
Rhoni
05-20-2008, 10:06 AM
you obviously have never lived through this. I am sure there are some fathers who are held accountible through the system. I can give you a total different story and many others I know... I know countless single mothers that have to fight for every dime they get and most of their ex's money is hid through/with girlfriends or new wives.
My ex husband spent 1 year in work release center for non child support... our county is considered one of the toughest counties in this State on Child Support... I have proof of every support payment ever paid... less than $4K of child support on three kids over the last six years. The County let him live in a work release facility and pay me only $20 a week while he faithfully supported and put a roof over his girlfriend.. while she sat at home doing nothing.
You really have absolutely no clue... and no, he wasn't underground. The majority of the last six years, he has lived within a mile of me... except for the times he's been incarcerated.
:highfive You know I am with you on this one:) I can say that many times it is only one side you here and in all fairness both should be heard to bring a balance.
Blessings, Rhoni
Rhoni
05-20-2008, 10:11 AM
OpieCarl,
Actually I believe recent research has shown that women are more prone to commit adultery than men.
I read one study that says 50% of married women cheat. I find that hard to beleive. Perhaps the survey was done in the godless NorthEast USA or California!!!!
CC1, Your statistics are a bit off: I'll have to check my past stats but the % was more (92% men and only 8% women). The reasons and circumstances were much different. From the study I did in 1994 [a bit old] women usually give subtle hints to the husband hoping to change things for years and sometimes decade. Women need emotional attachment and if the emotional attachment is denied them by the spouse they turn to another for affirmation. Men are totally clueless until the woman gives up and says...you know what - it is over and then does something to signify the end. Men were more prone to being impluse driven and reacting to physical attraction and a woman who flatters them. They still love their wives but think one has nothing to do with the other...until the shoe is on the other foot.
Blessings, Rhoni
James Griffin
05-20-2008, 10:19 AM
Things have radically changed the past decade.
Wives that cheat on their husbands are now a statistical dead heat.
One study in Germany found that married women were slightly more likely to cheat on their spouse.
The most disturbing find: That the cheating wife was more likely to have a longer affair and less likely to ever tell her husband. This has been one of the most dramatic social shift paradigms in modern times IMHO.
There are many reasons/explanations given. Most of which would go beyond a simple post.
But this thread has taken some twists and turns. Perhaps it would be best to spawn off a couple new ones?
Rhoni
05-20-2008, 10:28 AM
Things have radically changed the past decade.
Wives that cheat on their husbands are now a statistical dead heat.
One study in Germany found that married women were slightly more likely to cheat on their spouse.
The most disturbing find: That the cheating wife was more likely to have a longer affair and less likely to ever tell her husband. This has been one of the most dramatic social shift paradigms in modern times IMHO.
There are many reasons/explanations given. Most of which would go beyond a simple post.
But this thread has taken some twists and turns. Perhaps it would be best to spawn off a couple new ones?
We are waiting for you to start it...we asked you to several pages ago:toofunny Thanks for the updated info...mine is really quite outdated:)!
Blessings, Rhoni
James Griffin
05-20-2008, 10:34 AM
We are waiting for you to start it...we asked you to several pages ago:toofunny Thanks for the updated info...mine is really quite outdated:)!
Blessings, Rhoni
And here I'm trying to cut back drastically on my online time.
:tissue
James Griffin
05-20-2008, 10:34 AM
We are waiting for you to start it...we asked you to several pages ago:toofunny Thanks for the updated info...mine is really quite outdated:)!
Blessings, Rhoni
And here I'm trying to cut back drastically on my online time.
:tissue
Ya know, I am so sick of this "men are dogs, women are helpless victims" garbage. Women have more in their favor in divorce court than men will ever have.
Cindy
05-20-2008, 10:39 AM
Ya know, I am so sick of this "men are dogs, women are helpless victims" garbage. Women have more in their favor in divorce court than men will ever have.
:nahnah
rgcraig
05-20-2008, 10:40 AM
I started another thread - - I'll try to copy all the other posts here there.
rgcraig
05-20-2008, 10:41 AM
Ya know, I am so sick of this "men are dogs, women are helpless victims" garbage. Women have more in their favor in divorce court than men will ever have.
Been to court lately?
Been to court lately?
No, but I grew up in a home affected by divorce and had my fill of anti-male venom being spewed from a bitter woman, so I don't have much tolerance for it.
Cindy
05-20-2008, 10:46 AM
No, but I grew up in a home affected by divorce and had my fill of anti-male venom being spewed from a bitter woman, so I don't have much tolerance for it.
That is sad Rico, but you know it goes both ways. There are bitter men also that spew the venom. And being called all kinds of dogs is not a happy place to be.
rgcraig
05-20-2008, 10:47 AM
Here's your new thread!
Cindy
05-20-2008, 10:49 AM
Divorce is not in the plans of God ... for what it's worth. God hates it because he wants the best for us.
OP Carl I have to agree that one of the worst things that has happened in America is no-fault divorce ... however I do believe there is systemic sexism engrained in tradtional OP circles that is not rooted in biblical principles but woven into the fixation w/ a snapshot of time ... specifically the early part of last century.
Sexism is just not thinking one is superior to the other gender but to have distorted views of the roles of the other gender ... such as having warped values attached to the other gender that are not healthy or realistic or culturally accepted.
As generations get more removed of the Norman Rockell painting idol that is reified at the altar of holimess dress theology ... this paradigm will seem more and more extreme, archaic and out of touch.
It all started with Eve, Daniel. And was carried through the scriptures.
DividedThigh
05-20-2008, 10:55 AM
the world is different than even 10 years ago, when i was divorced 2 years ago, my pastor told me be careful women arent what they used to be, very true, even in the church, as far as fairness, where i live the courts are slanted toward the woman, i can not address the whole country but here for sure, dt
CC1, Your statistics are a bit off: I'll have to check my past stats but the % was more (92% men and only 8% women). The reasons and circumstances were much different. From the study I did in 1994 [a bit old] women usually give subtle hints to the husband hoping to change things for years and sometimes decade. Women need emotional attachment and if the emotional attachment is denied them by the spouse they turn to another for affirmation. Men are totally clueless until the woman gives up and says...you know what - it is over and then does something to signify the end. Men were more prone to being impluse driven and reacting to physical attraction and a woman who flatters them. They still love their wives but think one has nothing to do with the other...until the shoe is on the other foot.
Blessings, Rhoni
just to be clear, you are saying that in the mid 1990's 92% of married men cheated and 8% of married women cheated?
is that what you are saying?
DividedThigh
05-20-2008, 11:02 AM
just to be clear, you are saying that in the mid 1990's 92% of married men cheated and 8% of married women cheated?
is that what you are saying?
i am sure she will clarify, but that cant be right even in a upc church, lol,dt
rgcraig
05-20-2008, 11:03 AM
i am sure she will clarify, but that cant be right even in a upc church, lol,dt
I wouldn't think it's been those figures since the 60's!
Baron1710
05-20-2008, 11:08 AM
I wouldn't think it's been those figures since the 60's!
Maybe more women lied about it then.
DividedThigh
05-20-2008, 11:13 AM
Maybe more women lied about it then.
that is funny baron, hopefully not true, i beleive the statistics had to do with the number of cheaters, being maybe 92 percent men, and 8 percent women, that is not true now in 2008 for sure, but a blanket statement that most men cheat like 92 percent, no not even now, dt:blah
Baron1710
05-20-2008, 11:15 AM
that is funny baron, hopefully not true, i beleive the statistics had to do with the number of cheaters, being maybe 92 percent men, and 8 percent women, that is not true now in 2008 for sure, but a blanket statement that most men cheat like 92 percent, no not even now, dt:blah
So 8% of women cheated with 92% of men, unless these dudes were cheatin with each other somthing doesn't add up.
DividedThigh
05-20-2008, 11:18 AM
what are we going to do with you baron, you crack me up, lol
James Griffin
05-20-2008, 11:39 AM
So 8% of women cheated with 92% of men, unless these dudes were cheatin with each other somthing doesn't add up.
I believe she was trying to say of the cheaters 92% were men. I doubt those statistics were totally accurate and she was probably pulling from memory.
However most men, unfortunately, would not consider an anonymous visit with a prostitute an "affair". Most women (and pollsters, no doubt, would disagree).
And when you figure in prostitutes and number of clientèle for each, a 10 to 1 ratio is not unreasonable. Just a thought.
Baron1710
05-20-2008, 11:45 AM
I believe she was trying to say of the cheaters 92% were men. I doubt those statistics were totally accurate and she was probably pulling from memory.
However most men, unfortunately, would not consider an anonymous visit with a prostitute an "affair". Most women (and pollsters, no doubt, would disagree).
And when you figure in prostitutes and number of clientèle for each, a 10 to 1 ratio is not unreasonable. Just a thought.
Fair enough. I was being silly more than anything. Usually those numbers include large number of men cheating with single women rather than married women, which also skews the numbers.
I believe she was trying to say of the cheaters 92% were men. I doubt those statistics were totally accurate and she was probably pulling from memory.
However most men, unfortunately, would not consider an anonymous visit with a prostitute an "affair". Most women (and pollsters, no doubt, would disagree).
And when you figure in prostitutes and number of clientèle for each, a 10 to 1 ratio is not unreasonable. Just a thought.
Soooooooo 92% of married men are cheating with prostitutes? Who are the 8% of women cheating with, gigolos?
Joelel
05-20-2008, 11:57 AM
Believers can't divorce except for adultery,if you do both of you and then who ever marries you will be living in adultery.If an unbeliever divorces you that don't apply.
Math.19:2: And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.
3: The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4: And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5: And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6: Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7: They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8: He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9: And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, (adultery) and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery
1 Cor.7:12: But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13: And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14: For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15: But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage (under bondage means, you are not bound by the law of marriage because the person is not a believer and God didn't join them together) in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
16: For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
MrsMcD
05-20-2008, 12:02 PM
Is it adultery if a married (man or women) uses porn?
James Griffin
05-20-2008, 12:02 PM
Soooooooo 92% of married men are cheating with prostitutes? Who are the 8% of women cheating with, gigolos?
Rico read ssssslllllloooowwwwwllllyyy.
I never said 92% of married men were cheating.( Unlike Dan I will challenge a misquote.)
I was pointing out the difference between men and women on the definition of "affair"
The previous post also went to ratio of cheaters, not to number of those who cheat.
Will be glad to explain difference in PM if you need more help differentiating.
LOL
As I posted in another thread unlike "polls" by Redbook, Cosmo, et al the majority of married men don't cheat.
James Griffin
05-20-2008, 12:03 PM
Is it adultery if a married (man or women) uses porn?
Wow that sounds like another thread all by itself.
rgcraig
05-20-2008, 12:06 PM
Is it adultery if a married (man or women) uses porn?
It many times leads to adultery...........
MrsMcD
05-20-2008, 12:07 PM
Wow that sounds like another thread all by itself.
LOL- I would never start a thread with a question like that. I just thought since we were discussing adultery...
MrsMcD
05-20-2008, 12:11 PM
It many times leads to adultery...........
True. Someone was telling me it wasn't adultery because the bible says ""Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." The persons argument was something about because the bible says "in his heart." I never really understood the argument.
Rhoni
05-20-2008, 12:17 PM
Is it adultery if a married (man or women) uses porn?
Mrs.McD,
I have counseled many women and men where porn was involved. The one without the adiction felt that adultery was committed. They felt betrayed and trust lost.
I counsel very similarly with the actual adultery and perceived such as you are describing with use of porn.
Since the Bible tells us that if a man looks at a woman to lust after her in his heart - he commits adultery...BIBLICALLY you would have to say ADULTERY has been commited.
Blessings, Rhoni
Rhoni
05-20-2008, 12:18 PM
Wow that sounds like another thread all by itself.
Stop suggesting that. I went to lunch and ended up with a thread:gaga:reaction
Rhoni
05-20-2008, 12:20 PM
Rico read ssssslllllloooowwwwwllllyyy.
I never said 92% of married men were cheating.( Unlike Dan I will challenge a misquote.)
I was pointing out the difference between men and women on the definition of "affair"
The previous post also went to ratio of cheaters, not to number of those who cheat.
Will be glad to explain difference in PM if you need more help differentiating.
LOL
As I posted in another thread unlike "polls" by Redbook, Cosmo, et al the majority of married men don't cheat.
Typical male response - casual sex is not an 'affair' only if you like the person.:crazywalls
just to be clear, you are saying that in the mid 1990's 92% of married men cheated and 8% of married women cheated?
is that what you are saying?
bump for Rhoni.
Rhoni
05-20-2008, 12:25 PM
bump for Rhoni.
92 % of the people who cheated on their spouses were male, whereas, 8% were women. I understand from what Jim Griffin told us the % is much higher in the case of women than it was in the 1990's.
I hope that answers your question.
Rhoni
Glenda B
05-20-2008, 12:28 PM
I would like to chime in on this thread, particularly this part of this post.
I think it is quite sad that divorce has become an option among apostolics. When I was married to my one and only wife some 20 years ago, I said "til death do us part", and I meant it. Now it has not been easy. We have lived through many troubled times. Jobs and no jobs. Hurt backs. Nervous breakdowns. Loosing everything and going bankrupt. My wife not working so she could homeschool our 3 kids (my oldest son just finished his first term in college with a 3.6 average:D). We have wept together. We have laughed together. But we have stayed together because there was not an option for anything else. Through all these trials and great tribulations, we love each other more than ever, simply because we choose to.
I understand that it was a 2 way street for my wife and I. We both were willing to walk this path together, and will continue to do so. I feel sad for those that had a spouse that chose to leave. But I refuse to raise my kids any other way than that marriage is for life.
I just caught the last page of this Thread, but Mt. Matthew, I loved this post. I have been married to the same man for 43 years and we have gone through trials and troubles, but it was my understanding that God meant marriage to last a lifetime. And I was not even raised in the Apostolic Church.
Cindy
05-20-2008, 12:36 PM
Stop suggesting that. I went to lunch and ended up with a thread:gaga:reaction
Just imagine what might happen after you go to sleep tonight..........:toofunny
James Griffin
05-20-2008, 12:42 PM
I believe she was trying to say of the cheaters 92% were men. I doubt those statistics were totally accurate and she was probably pulling from memory.
However most men, unfortunately, would not consider an anonymous visit with a prostitute an "affair". Most women (and pollsters, no doubt, would disagree).
And when you figure in prostitutes and number of clientèle for each, a 10 to 1 ratio is not unreasonable. Just a thought.
Typical male response - casual sex is not an 'affair' only if you like the person.:crazywalls
Hopefully this is the post you were responding to. Not the one your response is attached to.
:-)
James Griffin
05-20-2008, 12:43 PM
Stop suggesting that. I went to lunch and ended up with a thread:gaga:reaction
Looks like you were spared someone else started a thread on the definition of adultery.
LOL
DividedThigh
05-20-2008, 01:20 PM
92 % of the people who cheated on their spouses were male, whereas, 8% were women. I understand from what Jim Griffin told us the % is much higher in the case of women than it was in the 1990's.
I hope that answers your question.
Rhoni
aha, that is what i thought you meant my friend, i do agree with you, that use of porn is if not adultery, definitely leads to it, no doubt, that is true of all the men i have tried to help in over 30 years, dt
rgcraig
05-20-2008, 01:38 PM
Stop suggesting that. I went to lunch and ended up with a thread:gaga:reaction
Sorry about that - it's just the way it happened.
Sorry about that - it's just the way it happened.
I think this is the first thread I posted in that I hadn't actually posted in until I posted in it. :toofunny
James Griffin
05-20-2008, 01:41 PM
Sorry about that - it's just the way it happened.
Maybe we need a thread on how threads get started.
:toofunny
Rhoni
05-20-2008, 01:44 PM
Sorry about that - it's just the way it happened.
I am tough :boxing I can take it.:reaction
Rhoni
05-20-2008, 01:45 PM
Maybe we need a thread on how threads get started.
:toofunny
:boxing:boxing:boxing
James Griffin
05-20-2008, 01:50 PM
:boxing:boxing:boxing
Three boxers?????
Is that a masculine trait???
ROFLOL
Rhoni
05-20-2008, 01:51 PM
Three boxers?????
Is that a masculine trait???
ROFLOL
Sorry is this better: :reaction:tissue
James Griffin
05-20-2008, 01:53 PM
Three boxers?????
Is that a masculine trait???
ROFLOL
Sorry wrong thread.
:happydance
DividedThigh
05-20-2008, 01:56 PM
put up your dukes and fight like a woe man, lol,dt
ForeverBlessed
05-20-2008, 05:02 PM
True. Someone was telling me it wasn't adultery because the bible says ""Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." The persons argument was something about because the bible says "in his heart." I never really understood the argument.
absolutely and all the crazy online affairs are just as bad as the others... just because a man/woman hasn't left their family or involved in person with someone else doesn't mean that they aren't guilty of adultery.
Those online affairs.. miles apart or should I say computers apart are adultery too. Unfortunately it often starts with porn.
ForeverBlessed
05-20-2008, 05:14 PM
Ya know, I am so sick of this "men are dogs, women are helpless victims" garbage. Women have more in their favor in divorce court than men will ever have.
Now Rico... that isn't always the case. I know of three moms w/divorces in the last several years that lost their children during the divorce. In all the cases, they were boys who went to live w/fathers. Two of them I feel was unfair...they were good moms... the other one I feel God moved for that father just as much as God moved for me in court.
I suppose that all women have some spite in them to begin with because of the hurt, but most forgive and forget much faster than men. jmo I feel that healing comes with forgiveness.
I have done everything possible to respect and honor my ex husband when he didn't deserve it. I have taught my girls to forgive and even honor their father... not because he has earned it.. but because we are commanded to honor our parents... the position ... he was at one time a good dad and gave them life just as much as I did. I refuse to allow the girls to be men bashers.. I point to their grandfather, uncle, pastors... I never have a lack of Godly examples to show them.
I've struggled with little financial support from their dad, but when I had it, I have reached out in Christian love and helped him when in need. God has blessed me for it and I don't regret one thing I've ever done for my children's father. I will always care for him and his soul.
MrsMcD
05-20-2008, 06:38 PM
absolutely and all the crazy online affairs are just as bad as the others... just because a man/woman hasn't left their family or involved in person with someone else doesn't mean that they aren't guilty of adultery.
Those online affairs.. miles apart or should I say computers apart are adultery too. Unfortunately it often starts with porn.
I agree.
Rhoni
05-20-2008, 06:58 PM
Generally, when an affair comes to light, people tend to think that it's all about "the sex" -- better sex, new sex, adventurous sex, and, in many cases, any sex at all. But a growing number of relationship experts conclude that this assumption is often wrong. Instead, they point out that the motivation behind infidelity varies right along with the chances whether or not the marriage can survive.
Undoubtedly, celebrities and high-powered successes such as former New York Governor Eliot Spitzer and former General Electric CEO Jack Welch, and countless regular Joes and Janes, do cheat for the thrill. But it's a little more complicated. According to a recent "Lust, Love & Loyalty Survey," (http://personals.aol.com/love-dating/_a/why-people-cheat/20070509152609990001) the primary reason marrieds stray is something a more impalpable: feelings of discontent and disappointment. Men cheat because they are dissatisfied (sexually or otherwise) with their relationship, while the most common reason women cheat is they feel emotionally deprived. Simply, the affair fills a void.
Not all affairs are created equal. In fact, Ofer Zur, PhD, a psychologist from Sonoma, CA, has outlined a dozen reasons why people cheat, (http://www.zurinstitute.com/infidelity_affairs.pdf) none of which are just about "the sex." His laundry list includes conflict or intimacy avoidance, pay-back, mid-life, empty-nest or other types of individual crisis -- not to mention plain curiosity. "Affairs are often about self-expression and not always a reflection of a bad marriage."
"An affair doesn't have to be a death knell to a relationship," says Scott Haltzman, MD, (http://body.aol.com/healthy-living/relationships/why-men-cheat-myths-facts) a clinical professor at Brown University and author of ''The Secrets of Happy Married Men.' "It can be a wake up call instead." In fact, when both partners are committed to the relationship and to changing the dynamics that may have supported the affair, the marriage may come out stronger, says Zur.
The ones that take the brunt of the repair are the cheaters. There's no question that re-building the marriage initiates with them: Immediately breaking off the affair, profuse apologizing and rigorous self-examination about their betrayal in the first place. Then comes the work.
Most people aren't prepared to live with the guilt. "People either bastardize or glamorize an affair. They're not prepared for the shame and blame," (http://body.aol.com/healthy-living/relationships/cheating-spouse-questions) says Bonnie Eaker Weil, Ph.D., relationship expert and author of 'Adultery, the Forgivable Sin.' The road to self-acceptance may sometimes be a rougher path, even if the betrayed spouse can forgive them.
A marriage can survive infidelity, but it takes two. Forgiveness goes a long way; at some point, both partners must move beyond the affair or it will destroy any chance of salvaging the marriage and a shot at happily-ever-after, Hollywood-style. After all, enduring celebrity relationships don't make headlines.
rgcraig
05-20-2008, 07:11 PM
Rhoni, you need to list your source of the post above for copyright reasons.
I agree completely with that too!
Rhoni
05-20-2008, 07:37 PM
Would Cheating Ruin Your Marriage?
By Caroline Howard (http://body.aol.com/bio/caroline-howard)
An affair doesn't have to mean your marriage will end up like this
Just last week, Shania Twain and her husband of 14 years, producer Robert "Mutt" Lange, were calling it quits. Today the circuits are buzzing with the news that another woman (http://news.aol.com/entertainment/music/music-news-story/ar/_a/affair-reportedly-caused-twain-split/20080520074709990001?icid=1615984944x1202742217x12 00306177), the couple's secretary, may have come between them.
The question on everyone's mind: Huh? How could he? It's déjà vu all over again: Ethan Hawke and Uma Thurman. Ryan Phillippe and Reese Witherspoon. Marilyn Manson and Dita Von Teese, for Pete's sake. These affairs fly in the face of common wisdom regarding infidelity, who does it and why.
Generally, when an affair comes to light, people tend to think that it's all about "the sex" -- better sex, new sex, adventurous sex, and, in many cases, any sex at all. But a growing number of relationship experts conclude that this assumption is often wrong. Instead, they point out that the motivation behind infidelity varies right along with the chances whether or not the marriage can survive.
Undoubtedly, celebrities and high-powered successes such as former New York Governor Eliot Spitzer and former General Electric CEO Jack Welch, and countless regular Joes and Janes, do cheat for the thrill. But it's a little more complicated. According to a recent "Lust, Love & Loyalty Survey," (http://personals.aol.com/love-dating/_a/why-people-cheat/20070509152609990001) the primary reason marrieds stray is something a more impalpable: feelings of discontent and disappointment. Men cheat because they are dissatisfied (sexually or otherwise) with their relationship, while the most common reason women cheat is they feel emotionally deprived. Simply, the affair fills a void.
Not all affairs are created equal. In fact, Ofer Zur, PhD, a psychologist from Sonoma, CA, has outlined a dozen reasons why people cheat, (http://www.zurinstitute.com/infidelity_affairs.pdf) none of which are just about "the sex." His laundry list includes conflict or intimacy avoidance, pay-back, mid-life, empty-nest or other types of individual crisis -- not to mention plain curiosity. "Affairs are often about self-expression and not always a reflection of a bad marriage."
"An affair doesn't have to be a death knell to a relationship," says Scott Haltzman, MD, (http://body.aol.com/healthy-living/relationships/why-men-cheat-myths-facts) a clinical professor at Brown University and author of ''The Secrets of Happy Married Men.' "It can be a wake up call instead." In fact, when both partners are committed to the relationship and to changing the dynamics that may have supported the affair, the marriage may come out stronger, says Zur.
The ones that take the brunt of the repair are the cheaters. There's no question that re-building the marriage initiates with them: Immediately breaking off the affair, profuse apologizing and rigorous self-examination about their betrayal in the first place. Then comes the work.
Most people aren't prepared to live with the guilt. "People either bastardize or glamorize an affair. They're not prepared for the shame and blame," (http://body.aol.com/healthy-living/relationships/cheating-spouse-questions) says Bonnie Eaker Weil, Ph.D., relationship expert and author of 'Adultery, the Forgivable Sin.' The road to self-acceptance may sometimes be a rougher path, even if the betrayed spouse can forgive them.
A marriage can survive infidelity, but it takes two. Forgiveness goes a long way; at some point, both partners must move beyond the affair or it will destroy any chance of salvaging the marriage and a shot at happily-ever-after, Hollywood-style. After all, enduring celebrity relationships don't make headlines.
This came off AOL didn't say what the source was but the people and books/statistics are listed...I'll check aol and see what it says:)
Rhoni
05-20-2008, 07:39 PM
I'm sorry I thought I copied the whole thing...left out the first paragraph. Thank-you for catching this Renda.
Scott Hutchinson
05-20-2008, 07:44 PM
My question is this if someone catches their spouse in an affair isn't it very difficult to trust them again ?
I knew a fellow whose wife cheated on him once,he took her back,she cheated again and he cut her a loose that time.
rgcraig
05-20-2008, 07:46 PM
My question is this if someone catches their spouse in an affair isn't it very difficult to trust them again ?
I knew a fellow whose wife cheated on him once,he took her back,she cheated again and he cut her a loose that time.
It would take a lot or prayer, accountibility and a lot of work to regain the trust.
Cindy
05-20-2008, 07:49 PM
Have you ever noticed a lot of times the other woman is not more beautiful than the wife,and the other man is not more handsome than the husband? I am meaning this by the worlds standards of outward beauty. I agree with some of that article Rhoni that it isn't always about sex at first anyway.
Scott Hutchinson
05-20-2008, 07:49 PM
I have never had to deal with such.I am blessed.
Cindy
05-20-2008, 07:49 PM
It would take a lot or prayer, accountibility and a lot of work to regain the trust.
I agree, but it is possible.
rgcraig
05-20-2008, 07:52 PM
I agree, but it is possible.
I agree, but BOTH have to be committed to making it work.
Cindy
05-20-2008, 07:53 PM
No matter how you view adultery or lust, it is all about choices. It is never unintentional, no matter what you may try to tell yourself and others. It is a personal choice. Adults should have personal boundaries they will not cross. IMO
Cindy
05-20-2008, 07:53 PM
I agree, but BOTH have to be committed to making it work.
Yes you are absolutely right. And girl it is hard work.
Rhoni
05-20-2008, 07:55 PM
My question is this if someone catches their spouse in an affair isn't it very difficult to trust them again ?
I knew a fellow whose wife cheated on him once,he took her back,she cheated again and he cut her a loose that time.
Bro Scott,
Statistically, men who cheat are often forgiven and the wife wants to keep the family together. But if a woman cheats it almost always ends in divorce. Of course Freud says it is all related to the man not knowing if he is the father of the children. But many other psychologists think it is the male ego and he thinks her attraction to another man is about sex. As written in the above research article - affairs are rarely about sex. With women, as I stated earlier in a post, it is about emotional detachment of the spouse and not getting her emotional needs met.
I have worked with couples in church [before degreed] and couples after I received my degree and licensure. It takes a true relationship with God and the ability to forgive. The offending party must be accountable and extra cautious in reminding his/her spouse that they are sorry, and for a time give account for time, work, and must check in until the spouse's trust is rebuilt. There are many other things that need done and said but in a nut shell; a person has to be accountable and there has to be a lot of communication about what is wrong in the marriage, and how each feels...but it all boils down to forgiveness.
You mentioned about forgiving the first time but not the second...I think the minor prophet Hosea would model a different framework. If we are told to forgive 70X7 in one day...
I am not saying you should be a doormat...but I believe an effort should be made to keep the marriage intact/family intact, especially if both are spirit filled people who value commitment to God and the family.
Blessings, Rhoni
Scott Hutchinson
05-20-2008, 08:00 PM
I tell you I am afraid if I ever cheated,that my wife would not take me back.
I think she would shoot me,I don't want to mess around and find out.
She has a bit of temper ain't no telling what she would do.
Scott Hutchinson
05-20-2008, 08:01 PM
I tell you most of my sinner friends who have caught their spouses cheating say they never trust that woman again.
Rhoni
05-20-2008, 08:02 PM
No matter how you view adultery or lust, it is all about choices. It is never unintentional, no matter what you may try to tell yourself and others. It is a personal choice. Adults should have personal boundaries they will not cross. IMO
Cindy,
I agree to a point. The Bible does say, "With every temptation God makes a way of escape", but many times boundaries are permeable and a person is more vulnerable than other times. I read a book by Beth Moore, it talks about three different kinds of pits; 1] a pit that you fall into naively, 2] the pit that others force you into [like Joseph], and then 3] the pit you choose to to purposely put yourself into [out of anger, frustation, or a perceived need].
If you get into the habit of reinforcing your boundaries with no exceptions to the rule then you are protecting your territory and this is good!
Blessings, Rhoni
Scott Hutchinson
05-20-2008, 08:06 PM
What's so bad is porn is so easy to access online.
Of course I'm not agains't the internet but some folks should never own a computer.
Rhoni
05-20-2008, 08:08 PM
Have you ever noticed a lot of times the other woman is not more beautiful than the wife,and the other man is not more handsome than the husband? I am meaning this by the worlds standards of outward beauty. I agree with some of that article Rhoni that it isn't always about sex at first anyway.
Men and women have different needs. It isn't about sex, and not really about looks. You are correct...I have seen very few "other women" or "other men" that are better looking or half as smart, but they tell the other what they need to hear and make them feel like the center of their universe...things they were not getting from their spouse.
Rhoni
05-20-2008, 08:10 PM
The most difficult situations within churches are this: married couples who are friends and know the other couple so well...many times they become attracted to the other's spouse and it ends up destroying two families. Another example is the fact most women in the church look up to and find themselves attracted to the preacher...not realizing that when they get him...they have destroyed his credibility in the ministry and this affects many other families in the church.
Safeguards need put into place: if you travel as two couples in the church/friends...the couples should stay in separate rooms and not let boundaries down regarding dress, and activities that would cause/incite lust or a bad situation. Pastors should never counsel women without their wives present or the door open and the church secretary listening in. Pastor should have a separate office than the church secretary.
Cindy
05-20-2008, 08:24 PM
Cindy,
I agree to a point. The Bible does say, "With every temptation God makes a way of escape", but many times boundaries are permeable and a person is more vulnerable than other times. I read a book by Beth Moore, it talks about three different kinds of pits; 1] a pit that you fall into naively, 2] the pit that others force you into [like Joseph], and then 3] the pit you choose to to purposely put yourself into [out of anger, frustation, or a perceived need].
If you get into the habit of reinforcing your boundaries with no exceptions to the rule then you are protecting your territory and this is good!
Blessings, Rhoni
Yes, I really like Beth Moore she has great insights. I really want to get that book. My point that I ineptly made is that we all have boundaries, I am sure most cheaters don't wake up one day and say I am gonna go cheat. But adults should be able to make choices that will not harm our relationships with our spouses. I believe any audltery starts out emotionally and of course we don't make good decisions usually when our emotions are out of whack.
Joelel
05-20-2008, 08:48 PM
Is it adultery if a married (man or women) uses porn?
Yes,Matt.5
[27] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
[28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Rhoni
05-20-2008, 09:13 PM
Yes,Matt.5
[27] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
[28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
I already said that but I am glad that you read your Bible also:)
Blessings, Rhoni
Encryptus
05-20-2008, 09:48 PM
Is it adultery if a married (man or women) uses porn?
Yes,Matt.5
[27] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
[28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Joelel if looking at porn is automatically adultery, and adultery is biblical grounds for divorce. Then every man who looks at porn, his wife has grounds for divorce without him actually taking any action?
Joelel if looking at porn is automatically adultery, and adultery is biblical grounds for divoce. Then every man who looks at porn, his wife has grounds for divorce without him actually taking any action?
Who knew it would be that easy to get rid of her? ;)
Rhoni
05-21-2008, 05:13 AM
Legalism in it's truest form gags at a gnat and swallows a camel.
Truthseeker
05-21-2008, 06:12 AM
Joelel if looking at porn is automatically adultery, and adultery is biblical grounds for divorce. Then every man who looks at porn, his wife has grounds for divorce without him actually taking any action?
I've read a study once that stated something like fornication is the physical sin while adultery is the emotional/heart sin. Jesus said no divorce except for fornication, which is the actual physical act itself.
Any thoughts?
MrsMcD
05-21-2008, 07:28 AM
I've read a study once that stated something like fornication is the physical sin while adultery is the emotional/heart sin. Jesus said no divorce except for fornication, which is the actual physical act itself.
Any thoughts?
I think if a spouse violates the exclusivity of the marriage bond by using his/her body and spirit with another (which is what someone using porn is doing), then, because of the close intimate bond between husband and wife, he/she violates the marriage through adultery.
tbpew
05-21-2008, 07:39 AM
I've read a study once that stated something like fornication is the physical sin while adultery is the emotional/heart sin. Jesus said no divorce except for fornication, which is the actual physical act itself.
Any thoughts?
Adultery is an act that contradicts a vow.
Fornication is the same act without the force of a vow being in operation.
I am so saddened by folks who teach Matt 5:32 as inspired by God and then seem to be able to ignore that the two words (fornication and adultery) are used to establish a contrast.
We go searching for loopholes, we find loopholes...imagine that.
Michael The Disciple
05-21-2008, 08:02 AM
Believers can't divorce except for adultery,if you do both of you and then who ever marries you will be living in adultery.If an unbeliever divorces you that don't apply.
Math.19:2: And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.
3: The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4: And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5: And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6: Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7: They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8: He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9: And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, (adultery) and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery
1 Cor.7:12: But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13: And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14: For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15: But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage (under bondage means, you are not bound by the law of marriage because the person is not a believer and God didn't join them together) in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
16: For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
How about if one married a Woman who had been the Adulteress in a marriage but down the road was born again? Do you or anyone else believe God counts the old life against them? Or is it as if they had never sinned?
DividedThigh
05-21-2008, 08:03 AM
My question is this if someone catches their spouse in an affair isn't it very difficult to trust them again ?
I knew a fellow whose wife cheated on him once,he took her back,she cheated again and he cut her a loose that time.
virtually impossible scott, i know these things, dt
Rhoni
05-21-2008, 10:20 AM
How about if one married a Woman who had been the Adulteress in a marriage but down the road was born again? Do you or anyone else believe God counts the old life against them? Or is it as if they had never sinned?
God forgives all sin before or after conversion. Read Romans.
Blessings, Rhoni
Rhoni
05-22-2008, 07:34 AM
Good morning,
I just wanted to say that I have been bothered by my first post on this thread because when you forgive someone then you do not continually bring it up. I had no intention of hurting my ex-husband with the post but it was inappropriate as I forgave him in 2002.
Please forgive me for bringing it up. True forgiveness keeps no record of wrongs. For anyone who was offended by reading it - please forgive me.
Blessings,
Rhoni
OP_Carl
05-22-2008, 09:01 PM
THANK YOU!!!!!
:amen
And just for the record, yes, that is exactly what the no-fault divorce did, enable lazy people to get out marriages they were tired of, easily... :blah :blah
OR, it enabled women who were trapped in horrible marriages with no financial means of hiring an attorney to fight out protracted he said/she said divorces, a way to get out of abusive situations and get on with/save their lives.
It is really all a matter of perspective, and unless you have ever lived through any of these situations, perhaps it is unwise to spout off your opinion about it...
What rot. Am I required to experienced an abortion before I may express my opinion about it? How about affirmative action? Are only blacks allowed to express their opinions? This form of reasoning leads down a dangerous path.
OP_Carl
05-22-2008, 09:16 PM
you obviously have never lived through this. I am sure there are some fathers who are held accountible through the system. I can give you a total different story and many others I know... I know countless single mothers that have to fight for every dime they get and most of their ex's money is hid through/with girlfriends or new wives.
My ex husband spent 1 year in work release center for non child support... our county is considered one of the toughest counties in this State on Child Support... I have proof of every support payment ever paid... less than $4K of child support on three kids over the last six years. The County let him live in a work release facility and pay me only $20 a week while he faithfully supported and put a roof over his girlfriend.. while she sat at home doing nothing.
You really have absolutely no clue... and no, he wasn't underground. The majority of the last six years, he has lived within a mile of me... except for the times he's been incarcerated.
Well I see the point in your case. I mean, the guy got off scot-free, what with only a year in the slammer! :rolleyes2
Hey I've said that it doesn't turn out well for the women in every case. The trouble here is that all we have is a few anecdotes, not any data. But I would not call what your ex experienced a lack of favor by the court. He was obviously ordered to pay an onerous amount of child support. When he decided to forfeit compliance, he forfeited freedom because the enforcement was not taken lightly. The justice system did not turn its back on you in your time of need. You are in the unenviable position of experiencing the collision of your expectations with his irresponsibility.
My heart goes out to you. Keep the faith.
OP_Carl
05-22-2008, 09:28 PM
Good morning,
I just wanted to say that I have been bothered by my first post on this thread because when you forgive someone then you do not continually bring it up. I had no intention of hurting my ex-husband with the post but it was inappropriate as I forgave him in 2002.
Please forgive me for bringing it up. True forgiveness keeps no record of wrongs. For anyone who was offended by reading it - please forgive me.
Blessings,
Rhoni
Good point.
It's not easy, is it?
ForeverBlessed
05-22-2008, 10:22 PM
Well I see the point in your case. I mean, the guy got off scot-free, what with only a year in the slammer! :rolleyes2
Hey I've said that it doesn't turn out well for the women in every case. The trouble here is that all we have is a few anecdotes, not any data. But I would not call what your ex experienced a lack of favor by the court. He was obviously ordered to pay an onerous amount of child support. When he decided to forfeit compliance, he forfeited freedom because the enforcement was not taken lightly. The justice system did not turn its back on you in your time of need. You are in the unenviable position of experiencing the collision of your expectations with his irresponsibility.
My heart goes out to you. Keep the faith.
The "slammer" was the newly built work release center 1 block from my house... he had to be in by 8p.m. and was let out at 6am.. he spent part of that time at home... he basically just slept there... whew..tough system. He worked for my brother in law making the very least $800 a week bring home pay.. I saw the pay stubs.
$200 a week for three kids... 10,11 and 12 at the time.... not onerous... I received the majority of child support during the six months that he attempted to get back in church. My ex has spent most of his money on drugs over the last six years.. a habit that has put him behind bars (real prison) for possibly the rest of his life for car theft and robbing six banks.
I didn't sue him for child support, the govt did... they had to provide me with food help until I was able to get a job where I didn't have to depend on the goverment for help.
Now, sometime later... his new wife divorced him... she is long gone. I send him money every month... People think I am crazy... but there is absolutely no one who has anything to do with him. He might not have treated his family right, but I could never treat him the same way.
Hoovie
05-22-2008, 10:35 PM
$200 a week for three kids... 10,11 and 12 at the time.... not onerous... I received the majority of child support during the six months that he attempted to get back in church. My ex has spent most of his money on drugs over the last six years.. a habit that has put him behind bars (real prison) for possibly the rest of his life for car theft and robbing six banks..
Wow! I did not know...
ForeverBlessed
05-22-2008, 10:49 PM
Wow! I did not know...
He did a year in a min security and got out June 07 for theft.. I tried to help him, he came to live at our house while he got on his feet. The addiction was just too great, he stole my sister's car and went on a two week crime spree.. it was sad. I try to visit once a month and I just cry buckets of tears because of what he is facing. It just tears me up. Sin will totally destroy a person's life
Hoovie
05-22-2008, 10:51 PM
He did a year in a min security and got out June 07 for theft.. I tried to help him, he came to live at our house while he got on his feet. The addiction was just too great, he stole my sister's car and went on a two week crime spree.. it was sad. I try to visit once a month and I just cry buckets of tears because of what he is facing. It just tears me up. Sin will totally destroy a person's life
I am so sorry Lisa. Sorry for him - but even more for you. God bless you!
Joelel
05-22-2008, 11:32 PM
Joelel if looking at porn is automatically adultery, and adultery is biblical grounds for divorce. Then every man who looks at porn, his wife has grounds for divorce without him actually taking any action?
That's right it is grounds for divorce.If we are joined to a harlot we are one. That makes both a harlot and if a person is married to a harlot that makes Jesus a harlot because we are also joined to Jesus. If a person is married to a harlot, you must divorce him or her unless the person repents and stays repented.
1 Cor.6:15: Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of a harlot? God forbid. 16: What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17: But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18: Flee fornication. (Adultery) Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication (adultery) sinneth against his own body.
19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20: For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Encryptus
05-22-2008, 11:45 PM
.
Originally Posted by Encryptus
Joelel if looking at porn is automatically adultery, and adultery is biblical grounds for divorce. Then every man who looks at porn, his wife has grounds for divorce without him actually taking any action?
That's right it is grounds for divorce.If we are joined to a harlot we are one. That makes both a harlot and if a person is married to a harlot that makes Jesus a harlot because we are also joined to Jesus. If a person is married to a harlot, you must divorce him or her unless the person repents and stays repented.
My what an er interesting theology.
So every time a man looks at porn his wife MUST divorce him?
LOL
Joelel
05-22-2008, 11:45 PM
I've read a study once that stated something like fornication is the physical sin while adultery is the emotional/heart sin. Jesus said no divorce except for fornication, which is the actual physical act itself.
Any thoughts?
If a person has relations with an other that is not their spouse they are comitting adultary and fornication,adultery because you are married and fornication because your having relations with someone your not married to.
Joelel
05-22-2008, 11:52 PM
I already said that but I am glad that you read your Bible also:)
Blessings, Rhoni
Right,if a person looks at porn they are looking at it with lust after that person in the porn,the lust of adultery is the same as adultery because it's in your heart.
Joelel
05-22-2008, 11:59 PM
How about if one married a Woman who had been the Adulteress in a marriage but down the road was born again? Do you or anyone else believe God counts the old life against them? Or is it as if they had never sinned?
I believe God forgives all,they are new creatures.
Joelel
05-23-2008, 12:09 AM
.
Originally Posted by Encryptus
Joelel if looking at porn is automatically adultery, and adultery is biblical grounds for divorce. Then every man who looks at porn, his wife has grounds for divorce without him actually taking any action?
My what an er interesting theology.
So every time a man looks at porn his wife MUST divorce him?
LOL
No,you get divorced once and stay divorced.
Joelel
05-23-2008, 12:13 AM
Joelel if looking at porn is automatically adultery, and adultery is biblical grounds for divorce. Then every man who looks at porn, his wife has grounds for divorce without him actually taking any action?
That's right it is grounds for divorce.If we are joined to a harlot we are one. That makes both a harlot and if a person is married to a harlot that makes Jesus a harlot because we are also joined to Jesus. If a person is married to a harlot, you must divorce him or her unless the person repents and stays repented.
1 Cor.6:15: Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of a harlot? God forbid. 16: What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17: But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18: Flee fornication. (Adultery) Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication (adultery) sinneth against his own body.
19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20: For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Encryptus
05-23-2008, 12:27 AM
Joelel if looking at porn is automatically adultery, and adultery is biblical grounds for divorce. Then every man who looks at porn, his wife has grounds for divorce without him actually taking any action?
That's right it is grounds for divorce.If we are joined to a harlot we are one. That makes both a harlot and if a person is married to a harlot that makes Jesus a harlot because we are also joined to Jesus. If a person is married to a harlot, you must divorce him or her unless the person repents and stays repented.
.
My what an er interesting theology.
So every time a man looks at porn his wife MUST divorce him? Whether he acts on it or not?
LOL
[B]No,you get divorced once and stay divorced.
Oh learned one.
You are TOO funny !!!!!!!
A look a porn and wife MUST divorce !!!
rgcraig
05-23-2008, 06:09 AM
Oh learned one.
You are TOO funny !!!!!!!
A look a porn and wife MUST divorce !!!
That is a bit far fetched - - hope the wife never gets a Victoria Secrets catalog in the mail!
Grasshopper
05-23-2008, 07:52 AM
I don’t think looking at a catalogue or pictures is grounds for divorce. If you ladies don’t mind, I’d like to share something I was taught as a young man. Some may not agree, and I might be wrong on some points (I’m still learning). But this helped me when I was a young man. Here’s what Jesus said,
Matthew 5:27-28
{5:27} Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,
Thou shalt not commit adultery: {5:28} But I say unto you,
That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath
committed adultery with her already in his heart.
What we see here is that Jesus addresses the intent in the clause, “to lust after”. That means that if a man looks at a woman with the intent of seducing her and using her physically to gratify his desires he has committed adultery with her already in his heart. This is because the very desire to commit the act exists in the heart. Notice Jesus also didn’t say, “That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery.” Jesus is focusing on a heart issue here, not the actually stating that the sin was committed. An important note should be made here; this doesn’t mean that every time a man admires, is aroused, or finds himself interested in the physical beauty of a woman he’s committed adultery. Any honest man will admit that there is a big difference between looking at a woman with intent to really pursue and have relations with her and looking at a picture of an attractive woman. A man can look at a picture or painting of a woman and admire her beauty, yet refrain from the desire to actually pursue her. The line is drawn. He isn’t looking “to lust after” her. If a man commits adultery every time he looks a woman, a picture, a painting, or something provocative or intimate that arouses his male interests we’re all doomed adulterers (including our wives, women aren’t exempt). Jesus is addressing the heart of an unfaithful man who looks around for women so that he can lust after them with intent to pursue.
When I was a young man I felt condemned and ready to give up nearly every time I looked at a girl or a woman or stood in a checkout line at the grocery store. I had all the normal struggles that nearly every young boy has and I was convinced I was lost and that God hated me. But an elder shared this with me when I finally broke down and we had a man to man discussion. I was told that it was natural and healthy for men to admire a woman’s beauty; the sin in the heart begins the moment we decide we’re going to actually pursue relations outside the context of marriage. Once we’ve looked at a woman with intent to pursue, we’ve crossed the line and adultery has been born in the heart. He then met up with me at church and we prayed all that condemnation off of me at the altar, I felt like the world was lifted from my shoulders. I thought God would never love me but I learned in the days that followed that I my heavenly Father loved me and that I was perfectly normal in his sight. I was just becoming a man.
The problem with stimulating materials is that they can activate a man’s imagination to the point where fantasy and reality are blurred. When this happens a man is desensitized and more likely to begin looking to actually pursuing other women (lusting). It also gives a false airbrushed impression of female beauty that most real women can’t compete with. This can lead a man to feel less satisfied with his wife and as a result defraud her of her needs.
Wives, if you go through your husband’s stuff and find he’s looked at inappropriate things, don’t overreact. I know it’s hard to understand but men compartmentalize things. To a man sex and love can be totally separate things while for most women they are interconnected. It doesn’t mean he doesn’t love you or even that you’re failing him or been inadequate in some way. Men are strange like this. Women have their strange emotional deals…men have their strange compartmentalization’s. If this happens you both need to talk and be there for one another and pray together. You’re a team. He needs someone he can be weak and vulnerable with and if it will not be you (his wife) he’ll continue to venture into fantasy land where he can feel free, safe, and in control. Or worse, he’ll find another woman he can open up to that makes him feel safe and in control. Forgive one another knowing that you’re both human. Too many good marriages are being destroyed over too many dumb things that can be worked out. To expect perfection is to doom your marriage. Something like this is a life moment that will reveal how safe and open you feel with one another and how dedicated you are to get beyond the “little foxes” that spoil the vineyard. Or it will reveal how unrealistic your expectations are of one another. But I’m persuaded good things about Christian marriages. I think Christian couples have an advantage…we understand grace and forgiveness better than those in the world.
*(All of the above goes for husbands that might find something too. Men aren’t the only one’s who have had trouble in this area. Love your wives men, seek to understand them, and be patient with them. Like you, they’re only human.)
So I said all that to say this…LOL
I don’t think porn or things of that nature are grounds for divorce. It's grounds to take the day off work and talk and try to understand each other better. A little unconditional love, understanding, repentance, and forgiveness will go along way.
Love, learn, and grow. God bless.
P.S.
Men, don't be afraid to open up if your wives. And if you're struggling with this, odds are your wives already know it. Most wives are more upset with the lies and hypocrisy than the issue itself. The secrecy and deception will do more harm than admitting the weakness of your humanity to your wives. They love you. I don’t know why I feel compelled to write this. God bless.
rgcraig
05-23-2008, 08:01 AM
Grassskipper,
Very, very good words and very wise council you received as a young man. I believe all young men should be given this advice.
Very good read!
Grasshopper
05-23-2008, 08:12 AM
Thanks sis. My wife and I both come from broken homes and we have a special burden for helping marriages. Too many marriages are failing. Sadly, most marriages that die only die because husbands and wives allow them to die.
rgcraig
05-23-2008, 08:27 AM
Thanks sis. My wife and I both come from broken homes and we have a special burden for helping marriages. Too many marriages are failing. Sadly, most marriages that die only die because husbands and wives allow them to die.
I believe there's a BIG hole in our churches in this area. Couples are told to pray for a spouse, then since it's God's will that's all the instruction they get.
NOT GOOD!!!
My daughter and her fiancé are going through pre-marital counseling with the youth pastor and wife, which I am so thankful for. This past week she called me all excited telling me about their session.
The pastor and wife had set up a table for them and served them dinner (just my daughter and her fiancé). They left them alone to enjoy the dinner, then came back after dinner and started teaching on servitude.
They talked about how important it was to have a servant's heart in a marriage and they watched the portion of "The Passion" where Jesus washed the disciples feet and brought out the point how Jesus was able to do that knowing what Peter and Judas were about to do and applied that to marriage too.
Then, he brought in a basin of water and towels and said it was left up to them, but if they would like to reflect upon what they discussed and then wash each other's feet he was making it available to them. Then he and his wife left them alone.
She said they did it and it was so special - they prayed, cried and applied the lesson deep in their hearts, even to the point she said it was life changing.
I so appreciate someone cares enough to mentor our youth!
DividedThigh
05-23-2008, 08:30 AM
I believe there's a BIG hole in our churches in this area. Couples are told to pray for a spouse, then since it's God's will that's all the instruction they get.
NOT GOOD!!!
My daughter and her fiancé are going through pre-marital counseling with the youth pastor and wife, which I am so thankful for. This past week she called me all excited telling me about their session.
The pastor and wife had set up a table for them and served them dinner (just my daughter and her fiancé). They left them alone to enjoy the dinner, then came back after dinner and started teaching on servitude.
They talked about how important it was to have a servants heart in a marriage and they watched the portion of "The Passion" where Jesus washed the disciples feet and brought out the point how Jesus was able to do that knowing what Peter and Judas were about to do and applied that to marriage too.
Then, he brought in a basin of water and towels and said it was left up to them, but if they would like to reflect upon what they discussed and then wash each other's feet he was making it available to them. Then him and his wife left them alone.
She said they did it and it was so special - they prayed, cried and applied the lesson deep in their hearts, even to the point she said it was life changing.
I so appreciate someone cares enough to mentor our youth!
good example renda, life and marriage are what you make it, that teaching will help them build a better life together, our church requires that before marriage also, dt
I sure am glad to see this trainwreck of a thread get on firmer footing!
LOL! the first couple of posts were...well... uhm.... errr.....
like I said, it sure is good to see the last couple of posts!
rgcraig
05-23-2008, 09:17 AM
I sure am glad to see this trainwreck of a thread get on firmer footing!
LOL! the first couple of posts were...well... uhm.... errr.....
like I said, it sure is good to see the last couple of posts!
It can be done.
Grasshopper
05-23-2008, 09:27 AM
I believe there's a BIG hole in our churches in this area. Couples are told to pray for a spouse, then since it's God's will that's all the instruction they get.
NOT GOOD!!!
My daughter and her fiancé are going through pre-marital counseling with the youth pastor and wife, which I am so thankful for. This past week she called me all excited telling me about their session.
The pastor and wife had set up a table for them and served them dinner (just my daughter and her fiancé). They left them alone to enjoy the dinner, then came back after dinner and started teaching on servitude.
They talked about how important it was to have a servant's heart in a marriage and they watched the portion of "The Passion" where Jesus washed the disciples feet and brought out the point how Jesus was able to do that knowing what Peter and Judas were about to do and applied that to marriage too.
Then, he brought in a basin of water and towels and said it was left up to them, but if they would like to reflect upon what they discussed and then wash each other's feet he was making it available to them. Then he and his wife left them alone.
She said they did it and it was so special - they prayed, cried and applied the lesson deep in their hearts, even to the point she said it was life changing.
I so appreciate someone cares enough to mentor our youth!
That's awesome. I love how their church did that.
Carpenter
05-23-2008, 09:33 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBirf4BWew
:happydance:happydance:happydance:happydance :happydance :happydance
DividedThigh
05-23-2008, 09:36 AM
get a load of the hair, wow i forgot about that time, what a song, lol,dt
LaVonne
05-23-2008, 09:44 AM
I believe there's a BIG hole in our churches in this area. Couples are told to pray for a spouse, then since it's God's will that's all the instruction they get.
NOT GOOD!!!
My daughter and her fiancé are going through pre-marital counseling with the youth pastor and wife, which I am so thankful for. This past week she called me all excited telling me about their session.
The pastor and wife had set up a table for them and served them dinner (just my daughter and her fiancé). They left them alone to enjoy the dinner, then came back after dinner and started teaching on servitude.
They talked about how important it was to have a servant's heart in a marriage and they watched the portion of "The Passion" where Jesus washed the disciples feet and brought out the point how Jesus was able to do that knowing what Peter and Judas were about to do and applied that to marriage too.
Then, he brought in a basin of water and towels and said it was left up to them, but if they would like to reflect upon what they discussed and then wash each other's feet he was making it available to them. Then he and his wife left them alone.
She said they did it and it was so special - they prayed, cried and applied the lesson deep in their hearts, even to the point she said it was life changing.
I so appreciate someone cares enough to mentor our youth!
How refreshing...I'm so happy to hear this, Renda!
Encryptus
05-23-2008, 09:45 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBirf4BWew
:happydance:happydance:happydance:happydance :happydance :happydance
OH, so THAT's where the theme song for "The Crying Game" came from?
DividedThigh
05-23-2008, 09:46 AM
you are funny encryptus, to funny
rgcraig
05-23-2008, 09:49 AM
How refreshing...I'm so happy to hear this, Renda!
Pretty neat, wasn't it?
I believe they are getting a real solid foundation to start their marriage. Not to mention all the little tidbits I've preached - lol!
Once right after my divorce, I was talking with her and telling her some nuggets about marraige and she politely told me how would I know since I had divorced. It hurt at the time, but I understood where she was coming from.
A few weeks later she came to me and apologized and told me, "mom, I realize that because of your divorce you better than others knew what to say to keep me from having to go through what you did".
One of those treasured moments!
James Griffin
05-23-2008, 09:50 AM
I believe there's a BIG hole in our churches in this area. Couples are told to pray for a spouse, then since it's God's will that's all the instruction they get.
NOT GOOD!!!
My daughter and her fiancé are going through pre-marital counseling with the youth pastor and wife, which I am so thankful for. This past week she called me all excited telling me about their session.
The pastor and wife had set up a table for them and served them dinner (just my daughter and her fiancé). They left them alone to enjoy the dinner, then came back after dinner and started teaching on servitude.
They talked about how important it was to have a servant's heart in a marriage and they watched the portion of "The Passion" where Jesus washed the disciples feet and brought out the point how Jesus was able to do that knowing what Peter and Judas were about to do and applied that to marriage too.
Then, he brought in a basin of water and towels and said it was left up to them, but if they would like to reflect upon what they discussed and then wash each other's feet he was making it available to them. Then he and his wife left them alone.
She said they did it and it was so special - they prayed, cried and applied the lesson deep in their hearts, even to the point she said it was life changing.
I so appreciate someone cares enough to mentor our youth!
If only more churches would do this...
rgcraig
05-23-2008, 09:53 AM
If only more churches would do this...
They are missing a perfect opportunity to make a difference.
LaVonne
05-23-2008, 12:07 PM
Pretty neat, wasn't it?
I believe they are getting a real solid foundation to start their marriage. Not to mention all the little tidbits I've preached - lol!
Once right after my divorce, I was talking with her and telling her some nuggets about marraige and she politely told me how would I know since I had divorced. It hurt at the time, but I understood where she was coming from.
A few weeks later she came to me and apologized and told me, "mom, I realize that because of your divorce you better than others knew what to say to keep me from having to go through what you did".
One of those treasured moments!
I believe it!
My parents divorced when I was a baby, I have no memories of them together. My mom then quickly remarried the guy who basically raised me. He was abusive to my mom physically, mentally and emotionally...for some crazy reason she stayed with him for 12 years. Then she married a drug addict/alcholoic who drug her into the same pit he was in. I think she's been divorced from him somewhere around 7 years. My dad remarried once, it lasted just a couple of years and he's been single ever since.
I do understand where your daughter was coming from when she didn't like you giving her advice. However, you haven't been one to repeat your mistakes.
I'm sure your daughter and her fiance will have a wonderful marriage...they are sure starting off right! :)
dizzyde
05-23-2008, 12:18 PM
What rot. Am I required to experienced an abortion before I may express my opinion about it? How about affirmative action? Are only blacks allowed to express their opinions? This form of reasoning leads down a dangerous path.
First of all, extreme distortion of what I said, thanks. :rolleyes2
To each his own, I personally think you put yourself in a precarious position when you start making assumptions and judgments over situations that you have never lived through or experienced.
I really pray that you are never in the position of having to eat your words. It can be a humiliating and painful experience and they can be very bitter, especially if they have been delivered in a spirit of spitefulness and unkindness.
dizzyde
05-23-2008, 12:26 PM
They are missing a perfect opportunity to make a difference.
Renda, I agree, I think pre-marital counseling with your pastor or some form of spiritual leader should be a requirement. It is at our church now.
Also, that the one giving the counseling should have some form of formal training. It sounds like you daughter is in an excellent situation, with really strong leadership. She is lucky, it is less common than some might think.
In our society of overly romanticized theories of love if we don't equip the next generation with a solid foundation to build a marriage on, we are really failing them. I wish that I had had the opportunity to do this, who knows what difference it would have made.
Baron1710
05-23-2008, 12:35 PM
Renda, I agree, I think pre-marital counseling with your pastor or some form of spiritual leader should be a requirement. It is at our church now.
Also, that the one giving the counseling should have some form of formal training. It sounds like you daughter is in an excellent situation, with really strong leadership. She is lucky, it is less common than some might think.
In our society of overly romanticized theories of love if we don't equip the next generation with a solid foundation to build a marriage on, we are really failing them. I wish that I had had the opportunity to do this, who knows what difference it would have made.
We had that policy at our church in Oregon. We had a wedding scheduled and I was to do it. The couple skipped out after their first counseling session, the counselor called them they didn't return the calls and never showed up for another session. One of the mothers came up to me after a Sunday morning service and wanted to talk about the wedding the next Saturday. I gave her a puzzled look and said, "What wedding?" She was very upset that I wouldn't perform the ceremony. I said "We have a very clear policy here, we think marriage is sacred and not to be entered into lightly, your son and future daughter-in-law seem to consider it very lightly." She went to the Senior Pastor who told her, “There is no wedding here Saturday.”
DividedThigh
05-23-2008, 12:38 PM
They are missing a perfect opportunity to make a difference.
renda my friend i know that hurt a bit when your daughter said that, but she did the right thing in coming back after contemplating what she said and what you were doing, and of course those of us who have suffered are well aware of things to do to protect ourselves and our own, my hat is off to you sis, and your daughter who came back and reconnected, dt
dizzyde
05-23-2008, 12:44 PM
We had that policy at our church in Oregon. We had a wedding scheduled and I was to do it. The couple skipped out after their first counseling session, the counselor called them they didn't return the calls and never showed up for another session. One of the mothers came up to me after a Sunday morning service and wanted to talk about the wedding the next Saturday. I gave her a puzzled look and said, "What wedding?" She was very upset that I wouldn't perform the ceremony. I said "We have a very clear policy here, we think marriage is sacred and not to be entered into lightly, your son and future daughter-in-law seem to consider it very lightly." She went to the Senior Pastor who told her, “There is no wedding here Saturday.”
That is how it should be. We have a lot of couples here who don't take it very seriously and then the last month or so before the wedding are scrambling to make appointments to finish all of the required hours. But I have never heard any of them complain about it afterward, they all are thrilled about it at the end.
rgcraig
05-23-2008, 01:19 PM
renda my friend i know that hurt a bit when your daughter said that, but she did the right thing in coming back after contemplating what she said and what you were doing, and of course those of us who have suffered are well aware of things to do to protect ourselves and our own, my hat is off to you sis, and your daughter who came back and reconnected, dt
Thanks! It did sting, but I knew she had every right to think that and I also knew that she'd come to realize differently. I thank the Lord we have the great relationship we do.
She actually asked me to be her maid of honor for her wedding - - big honor!! We talked it through though and I told her I'd feel more comfortable being the mother of the bride, but just knowing she honored me by asking was worth it all!!!!
Carpenter
05-23-2008, 02:33 PM
My word...having a daughter scares the dirt out of me...every day getting closer to the inevatible when I become irrelevent for 6-8 years of her life.
Rhoni
05-23-2008, 02:44 PM
Good point.
It's not easy, is it?
No it isn't...especially when you feel you should have gotten an apology years ago and you know you never will:tissue
Forgiveness is something you have to keep working on every day...it is a choice. This is also something good to address in pre-marital counseling.
Blessings, Rhoni
rgcraig
05-23-2008, 02:46 PM
My word...having a daughter scares the dirt out of me...every day getting closer to the inevitable when I become irrelevant for 6-8 years of her life.
You'll do fine!
MrsMcD
05-23-2008, 08:49 PM
I don’t think looking at a catalogue or pictures is grounds for divorce. If you ladies don’t mind, I’d like to share something I was taught as a young man. Some may not agree, and I might be wrong on some points (I’m still learning). But this helped me when I was a young man. Here’s what Jesus said,
Matthew 5:27-28
{5:27} Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,
Thou shalt not commit adultery: {5:28} But I say unto you,
That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath
committed adultery with her already in his heart.
What we see here is that Jesus addresses the intent in the clause, “to lust after”. That means that if a man looks at a woman with the intent of seducing her and using her physically to gratify his desires he has committed adultery with her already in his heart. This is because the very desire to commit the act exists in the heart. Notice Jesus also didn’t say, “That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery.” Jesus is focusing on a heart issue here, not the actually stating that the sin was committed. An important note should be made here; this doesn’t mean that every time a man admires, is aroused, or finds himself interested in the physical beauty of a woman he’s committed adultery. Any honest man will admit that there is a big difference between looking at a woman with intent to really pursue and have relations with her and looking at a picture of an attractive woman. A man can look at a picture or painting of a woman and admire her beauty, yet refrain from the desire to actually pursue her. The line is drawn. He isn’t looking “to lust after” her. If a man commits adultery every time he looks a woman, a picture, a painting, or something provocative or intimate that arouses his male interests we’re all doomed adulterers (including our wives, women aren’t exempt). Jesus is addressing the heart of an unfaithful man who looks around for women so that he can lust after them with intent to pursue.
When I was a young man I felt condemned and ready to give up nearly every time I looked at a girl or a woman or stood in a checkout line at the grocery store. I had all the normal struggles that nearly every young boy has and I was convinced I was lost and that God hated me. But an elder shared this with me when I finally broke down and we had a man to man discussion. I was told that it was natural and healthy for men to admire a woman’s beauty; the sin in the heart begins the moment we decide we’re going to actually pursue relations outside the context of marriage. Once we’ve looked at a woman with intent to pursue, we’ve crossed the line and adultery has been born in the heart. He then met up with me at church and we prayed all that condemnation off of me at the altar, I felt like the world was lifted from my shoulders. I thought God would never love me but I learned in the days that followed that I my heavenly Father loved me and that I was perfectly normal in his sight. I was just becoming a man.
The problem with stimulating materials is that they can activate a man’s imagination to the point where fantasy and reality are blurred. When this happens a man is desensitized and more likely to begin looking to actually pursuing other women (lusting). It also gives a false airbrushed impression of female beauty that most real women can’t compete with. This can lead a man to feel less satisfied with his wife and as a result defraud her of her needs.
Wives, if you go through your husband’s stuff and find he’s looked at inappropriate things, don’t overreact. I know it’s hard to understand but men compartmentalize things. To a man sex and love can be totally separate things while for most women they are interconnected. It doesn’t mean he doesn’t love you or even that you’re failing him or been inadequate in some way. Men are strange like this. Women have their strange emotional deals…men have their strange compartmentalization’s. If this happens you both need to talk and be there for one another and pray together. You’re a team. He needs someone he can be weak and vulnerable with and if it will not be you (his wife) he’ll continue to venture into fantasy land where he can feel free, safe, and in control. Or worse, he’ll find another woman he can open up to that makes him feel safe and in control. Forgive one another knowing that you’re both human. Too many good marriages are being destroyed over too many dumb things that can be worked out. To expect perfection is to doom your marriage. Something like this is a life moment that will reveal how safe and open you feel with one another and how dedicated you are to get beyond the “little foxes” that spoil the vineyard. Or it will reveal how unrealistic your expectations are of one another. But I’m persuaded good things about Christian marriages. I think Christian couples have an advantage…we understand grace and forgiveness better than those in the world.
*(All of the above goes for husbands that might find something too. Men aren’t the only one’s who have had trouble in this area. Love your wives men, seek to understand them, and be patient with them. Like you, they’re only human.)
So I said all that to say this…LOL
I don’t think porn or things of that nature are grounds for divorce. It's grounds to take the day off work and talk and try to understand each other better. A little unconditional love, understanding, repentance, and forgiveness will go along way.
Love, learn, and grow. God bless.
P.S.
Men, don't be afraid to open up if your wives. And if you're struggling with this, odds are your wives already know it. Most wives are more upset with the lies and hypocrisy than the issue itself. The secrecy and deception will do more harm than admitting the weakness of your humanity to your wives. They love you. I don’t know why I feel compelled to write this. God bless.
I agree with most of your post. The highlighted part - I do not. If you were a woman and went through your husband's stuff and found that he had been looking at internet pornography or if you found hidden porn magazines, there is no way not to overreact. If a man is a true Christian, he wouldn't be looking at online porn nor would he be hiding porn magazines. Plus, if it is something that has been going on for years, and the wife/husband finds out after years of marriage, it's not so easy for the offended spouse to just talk about it and pray together. I know because this just happened to one of my best friends. She had no idea that her husband had been pulling up porn on the computer. He got careless one day and forgot to clear out the history.
Grasshopper
05-23-2008, 09:40 PM
I agree with most of your post. The highlighted part - I do not. If you were a woman and went through your husband's stuff and found that he had been looking at internet pornography or if you found hidden porn magazines, there is no way not to overreact. If a man is a true Christian, he wouldn't be looking at online porn nor would he be hiding porn magazines. Plus, if it is something that has been going on for years, and the wife/husband finds out after years of marriage, it's not so easy for the offended spouse to just talk about it and pray together. I know because this just happened to one of my best friends. She had no idea that her husband had been pulling up porn on the computer. He got careless one day and forgot to clear out the history.
I believe it was a study performed by Bro. Ensey in a Pentecostal Herald, but the study revealed that nearly 2 out of every 5 licensed ministers have struggles or have struggled with pornography. It's far more prevalent than you might imagine. The more I work with men in church the more I discover that this temptation is something like a leprosy among us. You have to understand, these are good men who love their wives and families. They are struggling with their flesh. You might also find it surprising but it's not just men struggling either. More and more women are admitting to having had struggles in this area too. These are good people, all love the Lord and their spouses...they are struggling with their flesh. They already feel more condemned than you might ever know. What they need is someone to love them unconditionally and who will seek to understand and pray with them, allowing them to pour their hearts out and get the pain out of their souls over this sin.
I know of a few couples who have had to deal with this. In one of them there was a big falling out, words said, yelling, screaming, and even a physical shoving match. The husband left the house and she told all his friends and her friends about his sin. It destroyed his ministry and they're divorced today. In another couple the wife discovered her husband's struggle in this area and one day approached him at the table asking if they could talk. She opened by expressing how much she loved and respected him for being a good husband and a wonderful father. She then calmly explained that she discovered something on the computer. He was defensive at first but she assured him that she still loved him and told him that he didn't need to feel like he had to hide this from her because she loved him. He was so overwhelmed by her love and understanding he began to cry and she took him by the hand as he began to explain how difficult it is and how it's like he just can't control it and how he felt so ashamed and filthy afterwards. As he sobbed and explained to her how he was hurting inside...she held him. They prayed together and scheduled a private counseling session with a certified Christian counselor. He voluntarily stepped down from preaching for just over six months. They worked through the problem and today the man is faithfully ministering in the church. It was a private issue their family resolved and moved beyond and they are stronger and more open with each other for it.
I even know couples who have survived affairs.
This is something the enemy loves to see destroy a marriage. Don't let some picture of an airbrushed hussy ruin your marriage. Understand that good men have weaknesses and sometimes those weaknesses get the best of them. King David was a good man who also fell tragically into sexual sin. Yet he is still regarded as a man after God's own heart. And for generations after David's death God still moved on behalf of his servant David's sake. Husbands are often like King David. Powerful, passionate, and strong in conviction. But all it takes is one weak moment and like David he can fall. From a man's perspective (you might not agree with this sis and I could be wrong) but from a male perspective sometimes I think women have a very high standard for their husbands...so high...God forbid if he's human and struggles with a sin or weakness. So we men feel we have to hide it. We make a mistake or struggle and hate ourselves for it. And we are terrified. We don't want to loose your love. We don't want it to be discovered that we failed to live up to that high expectation put upon us. Sometimes it's worse...I heard a woman once say that she'd divorce her husband the day she found out he was looking at porn. Guess what...I looked at my wife after hearing that and said, "That's one man who's hiding a lot from his wife and she doesn't have a clue." I was right. Thank God it humbled them and didn't ruin them.
Don't let porn ruin a marriage. It can be overcome with grace and prayer.
If you're ever confronted with a situation like this try to remember this one suggestion...error on the side of mercy. If a wife or husband overreacts about these kinds of things things can be said and things can be done that will cause years of hurt and that cannot be taken back. Error on the side of mercy. It might save a marriage.
Joelel
05-23-2008, 10:59 PM
I think people look at porn because they don't have a good relationship with their spouse. Things like,people need to have relations with the light on instead of in the dark.You can E-mail me if you want council.
Grasshopper
05-23-2008, 11:07 PM
I think people look at porn because they don't have a good relationship with their spouse. Things like,people need to have relations with the light on instead of in the dark.You can E-mail me if you want council.
Sometimes that's definitely part of it. But sometimes there are other reasons. Sometimes fantasy becomes a place where a man can feel in charge or in control especially if he feels his life is out of control. It's more complicated than many think. Often the reasons are as varied as the men who struggle.
Joelel
05-23-2008, 11:33 PM
Sometimes that's definitely part of it. But sometimes there are other reasons. Sometimes fantasy becomes a place where a man can feel in charge or in control especially if he feels his life is out of control. It's more complicated than many think. Often the reasons are as varied as the men who struggle.
That's what I'm saying,if you don't have a good relationship your life is out of control. Anytime a person don't have a good relationship the devils step in and take control.I wouldn't call it fantasy,I would call it lust.
MrsMcD
05-24-2008, 07:45 AM
I believe it was a study performed by Bro. Ensey in a Pentecostal Herald, but the study revealed that nearly 2 out of every 5 licensed ministers have struggles or have struggled with pornography. It's far more prevalent than you might imagine. The more I work with men in church the more I discover that this temptation is something like a leprosy among us. You have to understand, these are good men who love their wives and families. They are struggling with their flesh. You might also find it surprising but it's not just men struggling either. More and more women are admitting to having had struggles in this area too. These are good people, all love the Lord and their spouses...they are struggling with their flesh. They already feel more condemned than you might ever know. What they need is someone to love them unconditionally and who will seek to understand and pray with them, allowing them to pour their hearts out and get the pain out of their souls over this sin.
I know of a few couples who have had to deal with this. In one of them there was a big falling out, words said, yelling, screaming, and even a physical shoving match. The husband left the house and she told all his friends and her friends about his sin. It destroyed his ministry and they're divorced today. In another couple the wife discovered her husband's struggle in this area and one day approached him at the table asking if they could talk. She opened by expressing how much she loved and respected him for being a good husband and a wonderful father. She then calmly explained that she discovered something on the computer. He was defensive at first but she assured him that she still loved him and told him that he didn't need to feel like he had to hide this from her because she loved him. He was so overwhelmed by her love and understanding he began to cry and she took him by the hand as he began to explain how difficult it is and how it's like he just can't control it and how he felt so ashamed and filthy afterwards. As he sobbed and explained to her how he was hurting inside...she held him. They prayed together and scheduled a private counseling session with a certified Christian counselor. He voluntarily stepped down from preaching for just over six months. They worked through the problem and today the man is faithfully ministering in the church. It was a private issue their family resolved and moved beyond and they are stronger and more open with each other for it.
I even know couples who have survived affairs.
This is something the enemy loves to see destroy a marriage. Don't let some picture of an airbrushed hussy ruin your marriage. Understand that good men have weaknesses and sometimes those weaknesses get the best of them. King David was a good man who also fell tragically into sexual sin. Yet he is still regarded as a man after God's own heart. And for generations after David's death God still moved on behalf of his servant David's sake. Husbands are often like King David. Powerful, passionate, and strong in conviction. But all it takes is one weak moment and like David he can fall. From a man's perspective (you might not agree with this sis and I could be wrong) but from a male perspective sometimes I think women have a very high standard for their husbands...so high...God forbid if he's human and struggles with a sin or weakness. So we men feel we have to hide it. We make a mistake or struggle and hate ourselves for it. And we are terrified. We don't want to loose your love. We don't want it to be discovered that we failed to live up to that high expectation put upon us. Sometimes it's worse...I heard a woman once say that she'd divorce her husband the day she found out he was looking at porn. Guess what...I looked at my wife after hearing that and said, "That's one man who's hiding a lot from his wife and she doesn't have a clue." I was right. Thank God it humbled them and didn't ruin them.
Don't let porn ruin a marriage. It can be overcome with grace and prayer.
If you're ever confronted with a situation like this try to remember this one suggestion...error on the side of mercy. If a wife or husband overreacts about these kinds of things things can be said and things can be done that will cause years of hurt and that cannot be taken back. Error on the side of mercy. It might save a marriage.
Your post is great! I use the statement that Jesus forgives so we have to forgive. Not just with this issue but with any issue.
I definitely agree that it is more of a problem than one might think. It seems to be such a secret problem. People will ask for help with alchohol and drug problems but it seems they are too embarrassed to ask for help with porn. Our Sunday School teacher has suggested that our men read "Every Man's Battle." He told the Sunday School class that if a man tells you that he doesn't battle lust, he is a liar.
It does surprise me that women can struggle with these issues. I'm assuming you mean porn. I can see women struggling with emotional issues but not porn.
If I were personally in this situation, I would hope that God would give me the strength the second women you described. Plus, I really need to be that person for my dearest friend. It's somewhat hard when you are close to a situation though. I just believe that Jesus forgives so we have to also.
nahkoe
05-24-2008, 07:52 AM
It does surprise me that women can struggle with these issues. I'm assuming you mean porn. I can see women struggling with emotional issues but not porn.
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/life_article.php?id=7209
http://www.christianitytoday.com/tcw/2003/sepoct/5.58.html
MrsMcD
05-24-2008, 08:03 AM
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/life_article.php?id=7209
http://www.christianitytoday.com/tcw/2003/sepoct/5.58.html
Wow- the one about the teenage girl breaks my heart.
Encryptus
05-24-2008, 08:31 AM
A SOCIOLOGY researcher at Brigham Young University has found that today's college students are much more accepting of pornography than their parents.
John Carroll and his colleagues surveyed 813 students online. The results of the study show that almost all young men and nearly half of young women believe that viewing porn is an acceptable way of expressing sexuality. Only 37 per cent of fathers and 20 per cent of mothers that were surveyed agreed with the younger generation's prevailing attitudes.
Not too surprisingly, the study suggests young people might have been influenced by the easy availability of X-rated pornography on the Internet, even via wireless technology on handheld mobile phones.
"We're in an age of pocket porn," Carroll told USA Today.
Young men are still vastly more inclined to view porn than young women. The research found that 86 per cent of young men reported viewing porn in the last year but that only 31 per cent of young women reported having ever seen porn. Further, 20 per cent of the men said they looked at porn daily or almost daily, but only 3.4 per cent of the women said they viewed porn daily or weekly.
The article doesn't mention whether the Brigham Young study also surveyed generational differences in parents' openness in talking about sex with their kids, relatively broader factual sex education and heightened fears regarding sexually transmitted diseases in recent decades, or shifts in cultural attitudes about sexuality over the same timeframe.
So maybe its willingness to ascribe greater acceptance of pornography by young adults to the baneful influence of the Internet should be regarded with some salt handy. Brigham Young is a conservative Mormon university. And USA Today ain't Rolling Stone.
The study will be published in January by the Journal of Adolescent Research.
Grasshopper
05-24-2008, 08:33 AM
That's what I'm saying,if you don't have a good relationship your life is out of control. Anytime a person don't have a good relationship the devils step in and take control.I wouldn't call it fantasy,I would call it lust.
You might disagree with me, and I could be wrong, but I believe there's a difference between fantasy and lust.
Sometimes the mind might go on a flight of fancy, you catch yourself and get your focus back. A fantasy is something one doesn't intend to, couldn't do, and wouldn't do if they had the opportunity. A young person fantasizing about a teacher, model, actor, or musician. A young person fantasizing about the person they'd like to marry. A husband of 15 years who's mind goes on a flight of fancy about some actress in a television show he and his wife watch together. In every situation presented the thought is innocent and the person has no intension to really do anything. That's fantasy.
But don't be fooled though, while a fantasy isn't always lust...a fantasy can turn into lust. So guard your thought life.
But now let's look at lust. Lust is a husband who starts gazing at the young 20 something who likes to sunbathe out in the back yard next door; wearing her "next to nothing" bikini. He thinks about her. He thinks about her a lot. His heart begins beating faster when he sees her jaunt down her front steps as she embarks on her evening run after work. He likes to sit on the porch and sip his iced tea...waiting for her to come home so he can adore her as she does cool downs before going in for a shower. He likes to catch her and talk to her. He watches her laugh, her mannerisms, her walk, the way she moves in her clothes. He thinks about what it would be like if she came on to him and the wife wasn't home. Not only is he willing in his thoughts...he's willing in reality. When his wife isn't home he makes himself visible for the thrill of the possibility with the neighbor woman. He has her in his sights and he's setting the trap...but what he doesn't know is that he's the prey. He's decided just what to say to her to open the door for the possibility. He has her in his sights and now she' his target...but he's the hunted. He's one casual circumstance away from the action...he looks upon her "to lust" after her. He's already committed the adultery in his heart.
It could be he neighbor lady, a woman at work, a woman in choir at church that he jokes with all the time. It's someone within reach and it's something he's willing or desires to actually do. That's lust.
Grasshopper
05-24-2008, 08:40 AM
Men...I mentioned watching TV with the wife...
Most husbands and wives have had this conversation. She turns to you and says, "Honey, do you think she's pretty?"
Here's the deal guys...that's when your wife wants to hear you say, "Sure, she's pretty, but she's got all that makeup, lighting, and camera magic. Baby, you're absolutely beautiful without all that. The kids are already asleep. What do you say we DVR the rest of this and spend some time together."
Marriage takes effort and sometimes there are golden opportunities to make it magical...you just have the catch them.
Grasshopper
05-24-2008, 08:44 AM
Your post is great! I use the statement that Jesus forgives so we have to forgive. Not just with this issue but with any issue.
I definitely agree that it is more of a problem than one might think. It seems to be such a secret problem. People will ask for help with alchohol and drug problems but it seems they are too embarrassed to ask for help with porn. Our Sunday School teacher has suggested that our men read "Every Man's Battle." He told the Sunday School class that if a man tells you that he doesn't battle lust, he is a liar.
It does surprise me that women can struggle with these issues. I'm assuming you mean porn. I can see women struggling with emotional issues but not porn.
If I were personally in this situation, I would hope that God would give me the strength the second women you described. Plus, I really need to be that person for my dearest friend. It's somewhat hard when you are close to a situation though. I just believe that Jesus forgives so we have to also.
April had to cool down quiet a bit before talking to her husband. She got so mad she cried and was ready to kill him. But she knew if she talked to him when he got home and unleashed her wrath she's say things that she might regret. So she waited a day or two (I think it was a day or two). But she waited until she could calm down and be calculated and deliberate in her approach.
Encryptus
05-24-2008, 09:06 AM
http://xxxchurch.com/gethelp/women/resources.html
http://www.pureintimacy.org/gr/intimacy/understanding/a0000115.cfm
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