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Nahum
05-23-2008, 09:46 AM
In Nehemiah 4, we read that "Sanballat was very angry when he learned that we were rebuilding the wall. He flew into a rage and mocked the Jews, saying in front of his friends and the Samarian army officers, “What does this bunch of poor, feeble Jews think they are doing? Do they think they can build the wall in a day if they offer enough sacrifices? Look at those charred stones they are pulling out of the rubbish and using again!”

Tobiah the Ammonite, who was standing beside him, remarked, “That stone wall would collapse if even a fox walked along the top of it!” (Nehemiah 4:1-3)

This is what the enemies of God do. They stand idly by and mock as the people of God, standing on Truth, refuse to come down from the walls they are building. Enemies never look for commonalities or ways to jhelp the Kingdom. Their goal is to steal, kill, pervert and destroy.

Walls separate. They distinguish the holy from the profane. The enemies of Truth hate doctrinal walls because those walls show exactly how unholy their message, tactics and motives are.

Nahum
05-23-2008, 09:48 AM
Are you familiar with the names Sanballat and Tobiah? Let me give you two quotes from earlier in the book of Nehemiah that describe who they are:

"But when Sanballat the Horonite and Tobiah the Ammonite official heard of my arrival, they were very angry that someone had come who was interested in helping Israel." (Nehemiah 2:10)

"But when Sanballat, Tobiah, and Geshem the Arab heard of our plan, they scoffed contemptuously. “What are you doing, rebelling against the king like this?” they asked. But I replied, “The God of heaven will help us succeed. We his servants will start rebuilding this wall. But you have no stake or claim in Jerusalem.” (Nehemiah 2:19-20)

Who were Sanballat and Tobiah? Enemies of Israel, and enemies of God. That’s all that Nehemiah needed to know when he faced their criticism. If they opposed God, of course they’re going to criticize Nehemiah.

We need to learn to source those who criticize Truth.

The source will often tell you more than the criticism itself.

Baron1710
05-23-2008, 09:52 AM
Maybe there is a world of difference between a literal wall designed to control who comes in and out of a city and the comparison that you make to "walls" that essential seem to be built to offend. Walls at that time are more similar to a military force to protect a nation than teachings designed to keep people out.

DividedThigh
05-23-2008, 09:53 AM
always good to know enemies and the source of there power, good post pp, dt

Nahum
05-23-2008, 09:54 AM
We cannot allow our doctrinal enemies to be the sole focus of our attention. Nehemiah could have (a) stopped building (b) launched a preemptive strike (c) built the wall while remaining on the defensive.

Nehemiah chose option (c).

This is the best option for those of us who still hold to the Biblical absolute found in Acts 2:38. We must continue to preach, teach and hold proper doctrine while at the same time defending it against every naysayer and backslider.

The church is not failing.

The church is progressing.

We are building something of eternal value.

Do not let a blasphemous mocker like Sanballat or Tobiah deter you from your mission.

Nahum
05-23-2008, 09:59 AM
Maybe there is a world of difference between a literal wall designed to control who comes in and out of a city and the comparison that you make to "walls" that essential seem to be built to offend. Walls at that time are more similar to a military force to protect a nation than teachings designed to keep people out.


You have a skewed view of Truth.

Walls are meant to keep enemies (false doctrine) out. Not friends.

Baron1710
05-23-2008, 10:06 AM
You have a skewed view of Truth.

Walls are meant to keep enemies (false doctrine) out. Not friends.

I don't think my view of truth is skewed. I just don't know that building the walls around a city is a good analogy to truth. I don't disagree that walls are meant to keep enemies out, which is why I don't think it is a good analogy. Truth is not put in danger by falsity. The darker the night the brighter the light.

Nahum
05-23-2008, 10:11 AM
I don't think my view of truth is skewed. I just don't know that building the walls around a city is a good analogy to truth. I don't disagree that walls are meant to keep enemies out, which is why I don't think it is a good analogy. Truth is not put in danger by falsity. The darker the night the brighter the light.

You're funny.

Our view of Truth is in danger when we tolerate false doctrine.

See Revelation, chapters one through three.

Apparently Jesus felt some sort of wall needed to be erected to keep false doctrine out.

Are you really suggesting we open our puplits to Wiccans and Catholics? I mean, after all, you believe false doctrine can't hurt Truth, right?

Utter foolishness.

Ferd
05-23-2008, 10:12 AM
I am for the walls and against the spirit of Sanabllat!

Baron1710
05-23-2008, 10:20 AM
You're funny.

Our view of Truth is in danger when we tolerate false doctrine.

See Revelation, chapters one through three.

Apparently Jesus felt some sort of wall needed to be erected to keep false doctrine out.

Are you really suggesting we open our puplits to Wiccans and Catholics? I mean, after all, you believe false doctrine can't hurt Truth, right?
Utter foolishness.

All I did was challenge your analogy which I find to be a poor one. I at no time suggested allowing Wiccans in the pulpit.

Can you show me where Jesus erected a wall to keep false doctrine out?

A wall around a city is a military statement. It says we are not at your mercy, we can defend our selves. Truth is its own protection against false doctrine.

Ferd
05-23-2008, 10:31 AM
A very wise friend of mine recently commented on the ox in the ditch.

he said too often folk will call the ditch a road so they dont have to get there ox out of it.

DividedThigh
05-23-2008, 11:38 AM
A very wise friend of mine recently commented on the ox in the ditch.

he said too often folk will call the ditch a road so they dont have to get there ox out of it.

wise friend indeed, so many choose to redefine the rules or change locations rather than deal with themselves, lol,dt

Ferd
05-23-2008, 11:41 AM
wise friend indeed, so many choose to redefine the rules or change locations rather than deal with themselves, lol,dt

quite possibly the saddest part of Nehemiah's story is that in the end, what he built from the rubble of what once was, while sufficient, did not match the glory that was Jerusalem before the people backslid, turned to false gods and were bound in captivity.

DividedThigh
05-23-2008, 11:55 AM
quite possibly the saddest part of Nehemiah's story is that in the end, what he built from the rubble of what once was, while sufficient, did not match the glory that was Jerusalem before the people backslid, turned to false gods and were bound in captivity.

very true, they just made due with the ashes of the past, the glory of god was gone, dt

SDG
05-23-2008, 11:58 AM
Walls separate. They distinguish the holy from the profane. The enemies of Truth hate doctrinal walls because those walls show exactly how unholy their message, tactics and motives are.

Agree w/ the thrust of your post would hate the people of God to fall prey to idolatary and paganism... however you speak in riddles my fisherman friend ...

Considering your aversion to fences ... how do explain why some have torn down the fences, and rail against them (pun intended)

but

Replace them w/ walls ... using the same arguments as the fence builders?

tbpew
05-23-2008, 12:00 PM
PP,
If all matters pertaining to the spirit of a man proceed from his heart, what is the NT equivalent of a well-constructed and purposeful wall?

If we can wrestle with this, maybe we will not need to wrestle with flesh and blood or use management strategies that constrain the mixing of humanity.

We need to find a Church Order that is fueled by a spiritual hunger and thirst for righteousness and has minimal regard for the factoids that preoccupy the carnal mind.

We can not be double-minded and prosper.

We must decide ahead of the time, before the tempter comes using some factory-trained, carnally-minded professor, to sway us into engaging the issues of the kingdom of men.

So PP, what is the NT equivalent of the wall...and where is this wall to be constructed and maintained?

SDG
05-23-2008, 12:04 PM
PP,
If all matters pertaining to the spirit of a man proceed from his heart, what is the NT equivalent of a well-constructed and purposeful wall?

If we can wrestle with this, maybe we will not need to wrestle with flesh and blood or use management strategies that constrain the mixing of humanity.

We need to find a Church Order that is fueled by a spiritual hunger and thirst for righteousness and has minimal regard for the factoids that preoccupy the carnal mind.

We can not be double-minded and prosper.

We must decide ahead of the time, before the tempter comes using some factory-trained, carnally-minded professor, to sway us into engaging the issues of the kingdom of men.

So PP, what is the NT equivalent of the wall...and where is this wall to be constructed and maintained?

Doesn't John speak of a wall in Rev. 21? What does it signify?

Mrs. LPW
05-23-2008, 12:09 PM
I don't think my view of truth is skewed. I just don't know that building the walls around a city is a good analogy to truth. I don't disagree that walls are meant to keep enemies out, which is why I don't think it is a good analogy. Truth is not put in danger by falsity. The darker the night the brighter the light.

My mind does go to Jesus, being the door... so there are some walls to this Kingdom of God, and there is only one door.

Hoovie
05-23-2008, 12:13 PM
My mind does go to Jesus, being the door... so there are some walls to this Kingdom of God, and there is only one door.

Excellent. This fixes the pagan/idolatry question.

SDG
05-23-2008, 12:14 PM
Excellent. This fixes the pagan/idolatry question.

He is the all in all .. the door, the gate, the cornerstone ... He is the Truth ....

Cindy
05-23-2008, 12:19 PM
He is the all in all .. the door, the gate, the cornerstone ... He is the Truth ....

Amen! Jesus the author and FINISHER of our Faith.

Ferd
05-23-2008, 12:20 PM
PP,
If all matters pertaining to the spirit of a man proceed from his heart, what is the NT equivalent of a well-constructed and purposeful wall?

If we can wrestle with this, maybe we will not need to wrestle with flesh and blood or use management strategies that constrain the mixing of humanity.

We need to find a Church Order that is fueled by a spiritual hunger and thirst for righteousness and has minimal regard for the factoids that preoccupy the carnal mind.

We can not be double-minded and prosper.

We must decide ahead of the time, before the tempter comes using some factory-trained, carnally-minded professor, to sway us into engaging the issues of the kingdom of men.

So PP, what is the NT equivalent of the wall...and where is this wall to be constructed and maintained?


I think two very important points should be considered in reading PPs thread.

first of all is the context of PPs ministry. he is no conservitive and in the Apostolic context one should not assume PP is speaking to expansion of a classic arguement for old time standards.

secondly PP has already indicated that a good start would be a review of the first 3 chapters of the book of Revalations.

giving consideration to those two very important bits of information, maybe it changes your view of the opening of the thread a bit?

SDG
05-23-2008, 12:26 PM
You're funny.

Our view of Truth is in danger when we tolerate false doctrine.

See Revelation, chapters one through three.

Apparently Jesus felt some sort of wall needed to be erected to keep false doctrine out.

Are you really suggesting we open our puplits to Wiccans and Catholics? I mean, after all, you believe false doctrine can't hurt Truth, right?

Utter foolishness.

Echoes of Westburg ...

Baron don't be fooled .... He considers one-step theology and other doctrines to his left should not be allowed w/ in his walls and those of the wall-builders ...

Shall we all sign another affirmation statement?

You apparently, Baron may not be a friend.

Let's stop speaking code, please.

Nahum
05-23-2008, 01:43 PM
I think two very important points should be considered in reading PPs thread.

first of all is the context of PPs ministry. he is no conservitive and in the Apostolic context one should not assume PP is speaking to expansion of a classic arguement for old time standards.

secondly PP has already indicated that a good start would be a review of the first 3 chapters of the book of Revalations.

giving consideration to those two very important bits of information, maybe it changes your view of the opening of the thread a bit?

Thank you Ferd.

My simple point is this.

There are some things Jesus won't tolerate in His church. If we cross over into forbidden doctrines He will warn us, discipline us and, if we do not repent, cut us off.

To the pastors he wrote "I will remove your candlestick." (Church)

To the saints he wrote "I will blot your name."

Jesus expects conformity to His Word and commands. We can not come down from Kingdom building. We are building a Kingdom upon the foundation he laid, and with the tools he provides.

It would be foolish to come down from these walls.

Two central Truths must be held to.

1. The New Birth message.
2. The Deity of Jesus Christ.

These things ought not be tampered with.

Nahum
05-23-2008, 01:45 PM
Echoes of Westburg ...

Baron don't be fooled .... He considers one-step theology and other doctrines to his left should not be allowed w/ in his walls and those of the wall-builders ...

Shall we all sign another affirmation statement?

You apparently, Baron may not be a friend.

Let's stop speaking code, please.

First, your analogy is silly because we do not belong to the same organization.

Second, if the Affirmation Statement was based on New Birth doctrine alone I would embrace it with open arms.

SDG
05-23-2008, 01:47 PM
Thank you Ferd.

My simple point is this.

There are some things Jesus won't tolerate in His church. If we cross over into forbidden doctrines He will warn us, discipline us and, if we do not repent, cut us off.

To the pastors he wrote "I will remove your candlestick." (Church)

To the saints he wrote "I will blot your name."

Jesus expects conformity to His Word and commands. We can not come down from Kingdom building. We are building a Kingdom upon the foundation he laid, and with the tools he provides.

It would be foolish to come down from these walls.

Two central Truths must be held to.

1. The New Birth message.
2. The Deity of Jesus Christ.

These things ought not be tampered with.

Most Christians believe and hold to the New Birth and the Deity of Jesus Christ .... it appears your city is too small.

SDG
05-23-2008, 01:48 PM
First, your analogy is silly because we do not belong to the same organization.

Second, if the Affirmation Statement was based on New Birth doctrine alone I would embrace it with open arms.

My analogy is one of an attitude of disfellowship with the Body of Christ which this thread is really about.

Nahum
05-23-2008, 01:49 PM
Most Christians believe and hold to the New Birth and the Deity of Jesus Christ .... it appears your city is too small.

More verbal gymnastics.

You would play the role of Sanballat or Tobiah, and say "come down?"

"Be like everyone else."

"Your walls are silly."

SDG
05-23-2008, 01:50 PM
More verbal gymnastics.

You would play the role of Sanballat or Tobiah, and say "come down?"

"Be like everyone else."

"Your walls are silly."

Your walls are of intolerance and an affinity to a century old heritage you no longer share but hang on tightly to.

Ferd
05-23-2008, 01:53 PM
ahh yes, the alternative christ.

SDG
05-23-2008, 01:57 PM
ahh yes, the alternative christ.

That would be the spirit of the anti-christ.

There is only One.

revrandy
05-23-2008, 01:58 PM
Nehemiah wasn't just rebuilding a Wall..but he was rebuilding a Nation...

Without Walls Nations fall....

Just ask Randy and Paula White...

SDG
05-23-2008, 02:00 PM
Nehemiah wasn't just rebuilding a Wall..but he was rebuilding a Nation...

Without Walls Nations fall....

Just ask Randy and Paula White...

Israel fell w/ it's walls, Randy ....

They crumbled at the feet of the enemy.

Is it the wall that saves the nation?

Why did Nehemiah want to re-build the wall? To preserve truth?

SDG
05-23-2008, 02:03 PM
Ah ..... the bunker mentality.

Let's build a compound in Texas.

staysharp
05-23-2008, 02:07 PM
Nehemiah wasn't just rebuilding a Wall..but he was rebuilding a Nation...

Without Walls Nations fall....

Just ask Randy and Paula White...

ugh..the walls of Jericho were 40' thick and they fell. When God gets ready to destroy our preconceived cock eyed notions, nothing will withhold his hand from penetrating our stupid insignificant immature barriers.

Only insecure tribalistic people need barriers, not the body of Christ. Jesus tore down every wall and partition...remember? Oh well, let me remind you...

Ephesians 2
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Ferd
05-23-2008, 02:10 PM
ugh..the walls of Jericho were 40' thick and they fell. When God gets ready to destroy our preconceived cock eyed notions, nothing will withhold his hand from penetrating our stupid insignificant immature barriers.

Only insecure tribalistic people need barriers, not the body of Christ. Jesus tore down every wall and partition...remember? Oh well, let me remind you...

Ephesians 2
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

LOL! classic

one who would confuse the walls that seperate man from his God and the walls that seperate the righteous from false doctrine needs to spend more in study and less time in instruction.

tbpew
05-23-2008, 02:24 PM
Thank you Ferd.

My simple point is this.

There are some things Jesus won't tolerate in His church. If we cross over into forbidden doctrines He will warn us, discipline us and, if we do not repent, cut us off.

To the pastors he wrote "I will remove your candlestick." (Church)

To the saints he wrote "I will blot your name."

Jesus expects conformity to His Word and commands. We can not come down from Kingdom building. We are building a Kingdom upon the foundation he laid, and with the tools he provides.

It would be foolish to come down from these walls.

Two central Truths must be held to.

1. The New Birth message.
2. The Deity of Jesus Christ.

These things ought not be tampered with.

PP,
I think I understand the principles you are pointing us to consider.
My question was established in the reality that God is making his own habitation without the hands of man being involved. The new tabernacle is a body.

So whatever is needful, whatever should be attended to with vigilance, is entirely within the construct of our own imaginations and resultant conduct.

Are you proposing a separation (some barrier to mobility) be maintained in our physical conduct with other humans?

You have pointed/asked us to consider, that there are two warnings, one for pastors and one for the entire membership. I have trouble reconciling that a man, operating in the gifting of a pastor, can trump, or in some other fashion, alter what is mine in God.

Whatever should be being builded and maintained is within my roles and callings pertaining to the body of Christ. This is why I am trying to understand your perspective of how the ministration of these walls is lived out in the life of the individual member of God's Christ.

Ferd
05-23-2008, 02:29 PM
PP,
I think I understand the principles you are pointing us to consider.
My question was established in the reality that God is making his own habitation without the hands of man being involved. The new tabernacle is a body.

So whatever is needful, whatever should be attended to with vigilance, is entirely within the construct of our own imaginations and resultant conduct.

Are you proposing a separation (some barrier to mobility) be maintained in our physical conduct with other humans?

You have pointed/asked us to consider, that there are two warnings, one for pastors and one for the entire membership. I have trouble reconciling that a man, operating in the gifting of a pastor, can trump, or in some other fashion, alter what is mine in God.

Whatever should be being builded and maintained is within my roles and callings pertaining to the body of Christ. This is why I am trying to understand your perspective of how the ministration of these walls is lived out in the life of the individual member of God's Christ.

it seems to me the PPs comments were less about the efforts of Nehemiah to repair the breach and more about a warning to the people of God to beware the voice of Sanballat.

have we been so conditioned by these forums to believe everything is about standards and thus not be capable of hearing what is actually being said?

tbpew
05-23-2008, 02:38 PM
it seems to me the PPs comments were less about the efforts of Neihmiah to repair the breach and more about a warning to the people of God to beware the voice of Sanballat.

have we been so conditioned by these forums to believe everything is about standards and thus not be capable of hearing what is actually being said?

Ferd,
I have not once considered that PP is advocating a well-maintained demarcation using outward standards.

I am just trying to explore if it pertains to the fellowship of people or imaginations. I understand that there comes a point when the two seem inseparable, but I am hopeful that there is way that spiritually-minded folks can some day cease from wrestling with flesh and blood.

The thread proposes the need to consider the challenges that come against our confidence in the working of our purposed role in Christ. So fine, that battleline is fully fought in our imaginations.

I really do still believe that each of us are going to answer to our own master, so whether some nut-job or some carnal zealot agrees or disagrees with me does not matter. What matters is whether or not I am attached to the vine; the source of life.

Carpenter
05-23-2008, 02:42 PM
More verbal gymnastics.

You would play the role of Sanballat or Tobiah, and say "come down?"

"Be like everyone else."

"Your walls are silly."

PP, the problem here is that you believe your interpretation of what Jesus will disallow in his church is really what Jesus would disallow. You are essentially telling Jesus what he can and cannot or will not accept based on what you only THINK he meant.

While I agree with your two points, I also agree with what someone else said that lots of people believe that and you would still toss them out of your city on their ear.

Carpenter
05-23-2008, 02:44 PM
Ferd,
I have not once considered that PP is advocating a well-maintained demarcation using outward standards.

I am just trying to explore if it pertains to the fellowship of people or imaginations. I understand that there comes a point when the two seem inseparable, but I am hopeful that there is way that spiritually-minded folks can some day cease from wrestling with flesh and blood.

The thread proposes the need to consider the challenges that come against our confidence in the working of our purposed role in Christ. So fine, that battleline is fully fought in our imaginations.

I really do still believe that each of us are going to answer to our own master, so whether some nut-job or some carnal zealot agrees or disagrees with me does not matter. What matters is whether or not I am attached to the vine; the source of life.

Great Post Pew.

Sometimes we decry the need to be different only for the sake of being different and thinking it serves a higher purpose. Someone can kill people all day long in the name of Christ and think he is correct.

Ferd
05-23-2008, 02:49 PM
Ferd,
I have not once considered that PP is advocating a well-maintained demarcation using outward standards.

I am just trying to explore if it pertains to the fellowship of people or imaginations. I understand that there comes a point when the two seem inseparable, but I am hopeful that there is way that spiritually-minded folks can some day cease from wrestling with flesh and blood.

The thread proposes the need to consider the challenges that come against our confidence in the working of our purposed role in Christ. So fine, that battleline is fully fought in our imaginations.

I really do still believe that each of us are going to answer to our own master, so whether some nut-job or some carnal zealot agrees or disagrees with me does not matter. What matters is whether or not I am attached to the vine; the source of life.

my friend i have come to appreciate you, but there are times when your posting style is so much like the former poster WWOD that it scares me!

tbpew
05-23-2008, 02:53 PM
my friend i have come to appreciate you, but there are times when your posting style is so much like the former poster WWOD that it scares me!

As Coonskiner would be very quick to point out, MB and I would be deeply divided on some things, but maybe he and I do share a core belief; words matter, because they reveal for everyone to see --the issues our heart.

Ferd
05-23-2008, 02:58 PM
As Coonskiner would be very quick to point out, MB and I would be deeply divided on some things, but maybe he and I do share a core belief; words matter, because they reveal for everyone to see --the issues our heart.

at least you are readable. there are folks around here that like to use lots of word that simply are not readable.

(wwod was very readable.... confusing at times but readable none the less)

Carpenter
05-23-2008, 03:07 PM
my friend i have come to appreciate you, but there are times when your posting style is so much like the former poster WWOD that it scares me!

Not me, if this were the case, my DNA would not allow me to agree with him.

:slaphappy

staysharp
05-23-2008, 03:12 PM
LOL! classic

one who would confuse the walls that seperate man from his God and the walls that seperate the righteous from false doctrine needs to spend more in study and less time in instruction.

Give me one scripture to support a premise of isolationism to keep out false doctrine. False doctrine is in most churches including Apostolics, it's a doctrine void of Christ and Him crucified. Any doctrine which elevates flesh above Christ is false.

This entire premise is built on a lie from Satan that people who don't believe like we do, see through our doctrinal glasses is the enemy and we have to keep everybody out so we can stay "holy". "Oh God keep the world out of the church"..."we're in the world, but not of the world". I've heard it a 1K times.

Whose kidding who?

Isolationism only defines those who are isolated; fearful and unbelieving.

If you have the truth, why do you need a wall around to protect it? Does truth not defend itself? Does truth not prevail? Why are we scared of others ideology and influence? If we have "truth" it should stand on its own merits.

We have to keep out "false doctrine" because somebody might actually explain the scriptures and we all might go down the "slippery slope". The reason these churches want walls is because they can't scripturally defend their position through truth.

If you want walls, I know of a wonderful holy compound in Texas. The women don't cut their hair, wear old fashioned clothes and believe in polygamy which believe it or not, they do have scripture for. BTW, Mormons speak in tongues too, believe in Jesus Christ as their savior and wait for his second coming...hmnnn

rgcraig
05-23-2008, 03:15 PM
Not me, if this were the case, my DNA would not allow me to agree with him.

:slaphappy

:bliss :toofunny :happydance

Ferd
05-23-2008, 03:15 PM
Give me one scripture to support a premise of isolationism to keep out false doctrine. False doctrine is in most churches including Apostolics, it's a doctrine void of Christ and Him crucified. Any doctrine which elevates flesh above Christ is false.

This entire premise is built on a lie from Satan that people who don't believe like we do, see through our doctrinal glasses is the enemy and we have to keep everybody out so we can stay "holy". "Oh God keep the world out of the church"..."we're in the world, but not of the world". I've heard it a 1K times.

Whose kidding who?

Isolationism only defines those who are isolated; fearful and unbelieving.

If you have the truth, why do you need a wall around to protect it? Does truth not defend itself? Does truth not prevail? Why are we scared of others ideology and influence? If we have "truth" it should stand on its own merits.

We have to keep out "false doctrine" because somebody might actually explain the scriptures and we all might go down the "slippery slope". The reason these churches want walls is because they can't scripturally defend their position through truth.

If you want walls, I know of a wonderful holy compound in Texas. The women don't cut their hair, wear old fashioned clothes and believe in polygamy which believe it or not, they do have scripture for. BTW, Mormons speak in tongues too, believe in Jesus Christ as their savior and wait for his second coming...hmnnn


once again i fail to read past the first comment.

if you cannot see that the thread doesnt advocate isolationism that is your myopia.

none the less, the confusion I pointed out in your earlier post is accurate.

and I stand by the assessment, it might be better if you studied more and taught less.

Carpenter
05-23-2008, 03:16 PM
:bliss :toofunny :happydance

Hey, our forum is going places, two mentions of DNA in separate threads within minutes of one another...

Raven
05-23-2008, 03:16 PM
my friend i have come to appreciate you, but there are times when your posting style is so much like the former poster WWOD that it scares me!
Ferd, Ferd!

At ease my friend. It seems that "fear" and "scare" are words I hear come from your postings with an increasing frequency. God is in control and always has been. Truth will always triumph whether you and I choose to defend it or not. You are too young to worry and be paranoid at what you think may lurk behind every posting. Go use those gifted cooking skills you are rumored to have and make some hungry people happy. The good guy in the white hat is going to still be standing after the smoke is gone and he will marry the beautiful bride of his dreams. And that's just the beginning of the story.
Raven

Ferd
05-23-2008, 03:16 PM
Not me, if this were the case, my DNA would not allow me to agree with him.

:slaphappy

LOL!!!!!

Ferd
05-23-2008, 03:20 PM
Ferd, Ferd!

At ease my friend. It seems that "fear" and "scare" are words I hear come from your postings with an increasing frequency. God is in control and always has been. Truth will always triumph whether you and I choose to defend it or not. You are too young to worry and be paranoid at what you think may lurk behind every posting. Go use those gifted cooking skills you are rumored to have and make some hungry people happy. The good guy in the white hat is going to still be standing after the smoke is gone and he will marry the beautiful bride of his dreams. And that's just the beginning of the story.
Raven

Elder, I was joking with thepew.... he is a good egg.... that post did have a certain ring to it that was truely reminicent of an old friend.

I assure you my use of the words fear and scare are Euphemistic and not realistic!

But as the Good Book suggest, I will take the kind rebuke of an elder with love and appreciation!

rgcraig
05-23-2008, 03:23 PM
Elder, I was joking with thepew.... he is a good egg.... that post did have a certain ring to it that was truely reminicent of an old friend.

I assure you my use of the words fear and scare are Euphemistic and not realistic!

But as the Good Book suggest, I will take the kind rebuke of an elder with love and appreciation!
Wow.....wouldn't it be great if everyone could get this concept!

Great spirit Ferd!

Nahum
05-25-2008, 08:10 PM
Most Christians believe and hold to the New Birth and the Deity of Jesus Christ .... it appears your city is too small.

Interesting choice of words.

Are you saying one can be a Christian without believing in the deity of Christ?

Nahum
05-25-2008, 08:13 PM
Israel fell w/ it's walls, Randy ....

They crumbled at the feet of the enemy.

Is it the wall that saves the nation?

Why did Nehemiah want to re-build the wall? To preserve truth?

No, he rebuilt the wall to restore proper worship practices among disenfranchised Jews, to restore spiritual identity, and to separate clean from unclean.

Nahum
05-25-2008, 08:18 PM
PP,
I think I understand the principles you are pointing us to consider.
My question was established in the reality that God is making his own habitation without the hands of man being involved. The new tabernacle is a body.

So whatever is needful, whatever should be attended to with vigilance, is entirely within the construct of our own imaginations and resultant conduct.

Are you proposing a separation (some barrier to mobility) be maintained in our physical conduct with other humans?

You have pointed/asked us to consider, that there are two warnings, one for pastors and one for the entire membership. I have trouble reconciling that a man, operating in the gifting of a pastor, can trump, or in some other fashion, alter what is mine in God.

Whatever should be being builded and maintained is within my roles and callings pertaining to the body of Christ. This is why I am trying to understand your perspective of how the ministration of these walls is lived out in the life of the individual member of God's Christ.

It is what it is.

Christ warned those pastors. He held them responsible for the message the Church heard. He threatened to remove them if they did not repent for tolerating false doctrine.

The idea that we are not guardians of truth is silly.

Of course we are.

Now, I realize that truth is powerfully immutable. But folks can be swayed from truth by a lie. There is no law that demands tolerance of every doctrinal wind that floats by.

SDG
05-27-2008, 08:36 AM
PP, the problem here is that you believe your interpretation of what Jesus will disallow in his church is really what Jesus would disallow. You are essentially telling Jesus what he can and cannot or will not accept based on what you only THINK he meant.

While I agree with your two points, I also agree with what someone else said that lots of people believe that and you would still toss them out of your city on their ear.

Limiting Christ, indeed. Placing a wall around Him.

Nahum
05-27-2008, 11:51 AM
You're funny.

Our view of Truth is in danger when we tolerate false doctrine.

See Revelation, chapters one through three.

Apparently Jesus felt some sort of wall needed to be erected to keep false doctrine out.

Are you really suggesting we open our puplits to Wiccans and Catholics? I mean, after all, you believe false doctrine can't hurt Truth, right?

Utter foolishness.

No response to this question?:crazywalls

SDG
05-27-2008, 11:54 AM
No response to this question?:crazywalls

All I did was challenge your analogy which I find to be a poor one. I at no time suggested allowing Wiccans in the pulpit.

Can you show me where Jesus erected a wall to keep false doctrine out?

A wall around a city is a military statement. It says we are not at your mercy, we can defend our selves. Truth is its own protection against false doctrine.

You posed a question to Baron and he answered.

Nahum
05-27-2008, 11:59 AM
You posed a question to Baron and he answered.

It wasn't a real answer. On what basis can he discourage Wiccans from his pulpit? Isn't he being exclusionary? Isn't his "city too small?"


It appears the Baron may have erected his own walls.:blah

Nahum
05-27-2008, 12:01 PM
Limiting Christ, indeed. Placing a wall around Him.

By the way, your illogical leaps keep getting more and more uncoordinated. Who said anything about placing a wall around Christ?

What of Jesus' claims that there would be false Christs who would deceive many? How will we know if they are false? Is it unChristian to judge them as false?

Nahum
05-27-2008, 12:03 PM
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea
Most Christians believe and hold to the New Birth and the Deity of Jesus Christ .... it appears your city is too small.

Daniel, can someone be a Christian without believing Jesus is Deity?

stmatthew
05-27-2008, 12:04 PM
If Nehemiah Were in the Twenty-First Century..

Some church person would have already killed him for upholding righteousness.

SDG
05-27-2008, 12:05 PM
Daniel, can someone be a Christian without believing Jesus is deity?

No. And yet I never stated such a thing.

Example:

JW's believe they are Christians ... and yet deny the deity of Christ as most mainline Christians do.

Next.

Nahum
05-27-2008, 12:27 PM
No. And yet I never stated such a thing.

Example:

JW's believe they are Christians ... and yet deny the deity of Christ as most mainline Christians do.

Next.

Okay.

But when you thow around statements like "most Christians" you inadvertently intimate the opposite.

Daniel, why can't Wiccans and Catholics teach from our pulpits?

Nahum
05-27-2008, 12:28 PM
If Nehemiah Were in the Twenty-First Century..

Some church person would have already killed him for upholding righteousness.


Pretty much. :girlytantrum

SDG
05-27-2008, 12:33 PM
Okay.

But when you thow around statements like "most Christians" you inadvertently intimate the opposite.

Daniel, why can't Wiccans and Catholics teach from our pulpits?

The inverse is not true unless one infers creatively when reading.

Wiccans aren't Christians ... when they come to Christ I'll let them preach.

I wouldn't have a problem w/ a Catholic priest teach on a variety of topics ... including the social aspects of the Gospel.

Nahum
05-27-2008, 12:37 PM
The inverse is not true unless one infers creatively when reading.

Wiccans aren't Christians ... when they come to Christ I'll let them preach.

I wouldn't have a problem w/ a Catholic priest teach on a variety of topics ... including the social aspects of the Gospel.

So then, you have erected a wall.

You have decided that Wiccans cannot teach in the church you pastor.

How utterly intolerant of you.:drama

Why do you feel it necessary to keep them out of the puplit?

Isn't truth strong enough to withstand whatever they would say to the congregation?

SDG
05-27-2008, 12:39 PM
So then, you have erected a wall.

You have decided that Wiccans cannot teach in the church you pastor.

How utterly intolerant of you.:drama

Why do you feel it necessary to keep them out of the puplit?

Isn't truth strong enough to withstand whatever they would say to the congregation?

OOOOh ... you got me ... set up and I fell for it .. I don't let non-Christians teach about witchcraft at the church, sue me.

Your wall separates you from most of the Body of Christ, PP ... including 1 step Apostolics.... and those God calls His because they have His Spirit.

What say ye? Is yours a wall or a vacuum or a kingdom of heaven country club?

*cross-examination has commenced*

Nahum
05-27-2008, 12:44 PM
OOOOh ... you got me ... set up and I fell for it .. I don't let non-Christians teach about witchcraft at the church, sue me.

Your wall separates you from most of the Body of Christ, PP ... including 1 step Apostolics....

What say ye?

*cross-examination has commenced*

The TRUTH is that you erect walls just like any other pastor, Danielson.

For all of your professed love for tolerance, you find the need to exercise wisdom and *gasp* judgement every now and again.

Considering that, it is the height of hypocrisy to point a finger of accusation at me.

You and I disagree as to who constitutes the Body of Christ.

But we both have walls.

I guarantee that you would not allow an old-timer in your puplit to preach "holiness or Hell."

Yep, you have walls.

Baron1710
05-27-2008, 12:47 PM
The TRUTH is that you erect walls just like any other pastor, Danielson.

For all of your professed love for tolerance, you find the need to exercise wisdom and *gasp* judgement every now and again.

Considering that, it is the height of hypocrisy to point a finger of accusation at me.

You and I disagree as to who constitutes the Body of Christ.

But we both have walls.

I guarantee that you would not allow an old-timer in your puplit to preach "holiness or Hell."

Yep, you have walls.

I'm a little confused. Is your wall around the body of Christ or your pulpit? You keep talking about Wiccans in the pulpit, but wasn't your original wall around the entire city or body?

SDG
05-27-2008, 12:49 PM
The TRUTH is that you erect walls just like any other pastor, Danielson.

For all of your professed love for tolerance, you find the need to exercise wisdom and *gasp* judgement every now and again.

Considering that, it is the height of hypocrisy to point a finger of accusation at me.

You and I disagree as to who constitutes the Body of Christ.

But we both have walls.

I guarantee that you would not allow an old-timer in your puplit to preach "holiness or Hell."

Yep, you have walls.

Tolerance in America does not mean we tolerate law breakers like drug dealers or pedophiles... but allow eqaul protection under the law to all law abiding citizens ... accept divergent views, etc. w/ in broad guidelines

Your premise is flawed because of your narrow definition and parameters for what tolerance really is ...

I wouldn't cry, wince, writhe or foam from the mouth if a Holiness preacher came in to the church and taught ...

I'd remind the church ... at a different opportunity that we should retain the good ... and discard the foolishness. See Paul.

My tolerant view of the Body of Christ ... is based on what God has called his children according to His Word ... and you apparently don't even tolerate what God calls His children.

Your wall can't handle Him

SDG
05-27-2008, 12:50 PM
I'm a little confused. Is your wall around the body of Christ or your pulpit? You keep talking about Wiccans in the pulpit, but wasn't your original wall around the entire city or body?

His wall is for the .5% of OP Christians in the world ... which he only considers to be born of God.

Nahum
05-27-2008, 12:50 PM
I'm a little confused.

Classic understatement.:toofunny

Nahum
05-27-2008, 12:52 PM
His wall is for the .5% of OP Christians in the world ... which he only considers to be born of God.

Eight people in an ark.

Three people from Sodom.

Oh well.

Didn't realize we were in a popularity contest.

SDG
05-27-2008, 12:55 PM
Eight people in an ark.

Three people from Sodom.

Oh well.

Didn't realize we were in a popularity contest.

Good thing there will be a suite for folks who believe they hold the country club card in heaven ...

The rest of us will be enjoying the city whose maker and finisher is God.

Baron1710
05-27-2008, 12:56 PM
Eight people in an ark.

Three people from Sodom.

Oh well.

Didn't realize we were in a popularity contest.

Classic understatement.

Great non-answers. Thus the confusion to your posts.

SDG
05-27-2008, 12:58 PM
Great non-answers. Thus the confusion to your posts.

But he cornered you. That's what counts.

bkstokes
05-27-2008, 01:04 PM
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God (I John 5:1) What is harder to do: believe a man was born of a virgin and raised again the 3rd day or wear a dress and not cut your hair?

SDG
05-28-2008, 07:29 AM
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God (I John 5:1) What is harder to do: believe a man was born of a virgin and raised again the 3rd day or wear a dress and not cut your hair?

But ... don't demons just believe?

jaxfam6
05-28-2008, 07:37 AM
But ... don't demons just believe?

NOPE

They believe and tremble.

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

faith and works

they believe (faith that God is who he is)
and tremble (works based from their faith because they know what their end is going to be)



Just thought I would stir it a little more for you Daniel.

bkstokes
05-28-2008, 08:08 AM
But ... don't demons just believe?

Y