Is This Statement Of Faith Apostolic Enough?

[PraiseHymn]

Is this Statement of Faith Apostolic enough? This church (who I will name nameless right now) has this posted on their website. They are Oneness and Baptise in Jesus Name and believe in the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues. I just wanted everyones view point. Thanks for your responses.

THREE DIMENSIONS OF ONE GOD (1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 1 Tim 3:16)
We believe in one God who is eternal in His existence, Triune in His manifestation, being both Father, Son and Holy Ghost AND that He is Sovereign and Absolute in His authority.

We believe in the Father who is God Himself, Creator of the universe. (Gen 1:1; John 1:1)

We believe that Jesus is the Son of God. (Col 2:9)
He suffered, died, was buried, and rose from the dead for our total salvation (Luke 3:21-22; Philippians 2:5-11).

We believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Him (John 3:36; John 3:31-32; John 14:6).

We believe in the Holy Spirit who is God indwelling, empowering and regenerating the believer. This Holy Spirit is called the Comforter. The Spirit of Truth (John 14:17, 14:26)

We believe that the blood of Jesus Christ atones for our sins and iniquity. It is through His shed blood that we are saved, healed and set free from bondage and the forces of darkness (Romans 5:9-11; Ephesians 1:7; Revelation 12:11).

We believe that every believer must have a personal and intimate relationship with Jesus Christ, for apart from Him we can do nothing. Each person has a ministry from God that no one else can fill. We are to instruct, teach, exhort, and admonish believers in the ways of God (John 15:1-5; Hebrews 13:5-6).

We believe that the Bible is the true infallible Word of God, which cleanses our souls. It holds the words of eternal life and the keys of the Kingdom of God. The Bible shows us God's principles and standards for living; and it is the food that sustains us in all circumstances (John 1:14; 2 Timothy 3: 16-17; 1 John 2:5-6).

We believe that we are to wash and renew our minds daily by the Word of God.

We must learn His ways and exchange our way of thinking for His. We are to be conformed to the Kingdom of God by the molding and shaping of His Hands (Romans 12:1-2; Ephesians 4:23-29; Philippians 4:8).

We believe in justification by faith. We believe that salvation is free and apart from any work of man is a result of the sovereign grace of God. (Eph 2:8-9, Gal 5:5, Rom 5:1)

We believe in worshipping the Lord in spirit, song, dance and with the raising of our hands. We believe that we are to praise and worship Him with our whole being (Psalms 150:1-6; John 4:24).

We believe that in Godly living and the pursuit of a holy life should be the goal of every believer. (Heb 12:14, Phil 3:14)

We believe that believers should be water baptized by immersion for the circumcision of our hearts. It is through baptism that we publicly identify with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Romans 6:3-6; Colossians 2:11-14; Acts 2:38).

We believe that all Christians need to partake of the communion elements which represent the Lord Jesus' body and blood. It is by participating in the Lord's Supper that we proclaim His death until His return (John 6:53-58; 1 Corinthians 11:23-30).

We believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the sign of speaking in other tongues. We believe that Christians must be filled daily by using our prayer language, but the evidence of the Holy Spirit's indwelling presence is a changed life (Acts 2:4; Ephesians 5:18-21).

We believe in the manifestation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. He ministers to His people through tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy; words of knowledge and wisdom, discerning of spirits, faith, working of miracles, and healing (Mark 16:15-18; Acts 5:16; 2 Corinthians 12:1-11).

We believe that it is God's will to heal and deliver His people today as He did in the days of the first Apostles. It is by the stripes of Jesus that we are healed, delivered and made whole. We have authority over sickness, disease, demons, curses, and every circumstance in life (Luke 10:19; 2 Corinthians 10:4-5; 1 Peter 2:24).

"Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature... And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (Mark 16:15-18)

[stmatthew]

I know...I know...........:D


We believe that believers should be water baptized by immersion for the circumcision of our hearts. It is through baptism that we publicly identify with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Romans 6:3-6; Colossians 2:11-14; Acts 2:38).


Believers MUST be baptized, not should be. And it MUST be in the NAME of Jesus. To me, if this is not clearly state, then "something is wrong in Denver".

[Sam]

Sounds Apostolic enough to me.
We need to realize there is a lot of diversity among Apostolic people.
We don't even agree among ourselves on how and when a person is justified, or saved, or born again. We don't even agree among ourselves on what words are to be said as part of the baptismal ritual. And, if some of us even try to define "holiness" we get varied answers all over the map.

"Apostolic enough?" Are we trying to out-apostolic one another?
Are we trying to say, "I'm more Apostolic than you"?

[Cindy]

Seems like they are trying to cover all the bases.

[Cindy]

Sounds Apostolic enough to me.
We need to realize there is a lot of diversity among Apostolic people.
We don't even agree among ourselves on how and when a person is justified, or saved, or born again. We don't even agree among ourselves on what words are to be said as part of the baptismal ritual. And, if some of us even try to define "holiness" we get varied answers all over the map.

"Apostolic enough?" Are we trying to out-apostolic one another?
Are we trying to say, "I'm more Apostolic than you"?

This has been shown in forum land Sam. But I can't remember who said it first.

[Sam]

In my opinion, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" is Apostolic enough.

This is based on 1 John 5:1 which says:
"If you believe that Jesus is the Christ --that he is God's Son and your Savior-- then you are a child of God..."

[TRFrance]

Well bro, it's interesting that Brother you-know-who has this as his doctrinal statement, but the baptism part still seems a little watered down to me.

He mentions baptism by immersion... but is there a reason why he didnt say baptism by immersion into the name of Jesus ?

He mentions baptism for the circumcision of our hearts, (which is scriptural;Col 2:11-14)... but is there a reason why he didn't say baptism for the remission of sins, which is also clearly scriptural ?

Obviously, there are some here who would very much disagree, but to me, it comes across as being carefully worded, but a little watered-down at the same time.


"Apostolic enough?" Are we trying to out-apostolic one another?
Are we trying to say, "I'm more Apostolic than you"?
Sam, if you'll notice...

The question didnt ask if the man,(i.e. the pastor) is "apostolic" enough.... it asked if the the statement of faith is "apostolic" enough.

I think thats an important distinction to keep in mind.

[Cindy]

Yep, all bases covered. Just ambiguous enough for most to want to be a part of it.

[TRFrance]

Yep, all bases covered. Just ambiguous enough for most to want to be a part of it.
Well said.

Ambiguous enough to placate most Oneness and Trinitarian folks.

[Sam]

...
Sam, if you'll notice...

The question didnt ask if the man,(i.e. the pastor) is "apostolic" enough.... it asked if the the statement of faith "apostolic" enough.

I think thats an important distinction to keep in mind.

OK, maybe that's a technicality.
Guess we can't say, "I'm more Apostolic than you" but we can say, "My statement of faith is more Apostolic than yours."

Just kidding, and trying to jerk somebody's chain.

[Cindy]

OK, maybe that's a technicality.
Guess we can't say, "I'm more Apostolic than you" but we can say, "My statement of faith is more Apostolic than yours."

Just kidding, and trying to jerk somebody's chain.

Well when you put it that way it's understandable.....:D

[bkstokes]

St. Matt

Should and must both carry with them moral obligations. I am in the military and if my supervisor tells me, "You should get a haircut." I go get a haircut. If the word "should" is used with the word "if" then it makes it conditional (e.g. if you should). However, in the structure of this sentence this is not the case. In the structure of this sentence, it is an obligation to the believer.

[Fiyahstarter]

I think it is a beautiful statement of faith.

[stmatthew]

St. Matt

Should and must both carry with them moral obligations. I am in the military and if my supervisor tells me, "You should get a haircut." I go get a haircut. If the word "should" is used with the word "if" then it makes it conditional (e.g. if you should). However, in the structure of this sentence this is not the case. In the structure of this sentence, it is an obligation to the believer.


I disagree. The only reason you would go get a haircut is because your superior made the suggestion. However, if I state that I should lay off of the Lays potato chips after eating one, we all know that I will not do so, because no one can eat just one. :D


:bliss

[Scott Hutchinson]

I'm might have worded the baptism statement a little differently,but really I can't find too much fault with it.
These statements faith of faith are to be just a basic overview of basic beliefs and not a comprehensive list of everything a church may or may not believe.
I don't really care for the word Triune but Triune can mean three manifestations and not three seperate persons,but I don't really like the term triune myself.

[commonsense]

Semantics perhaps...............

#3 in dictionary_ loosely, verbal trickery

[Praxeas]

Is this Statement of Faith Apostolic enough? This church (who I will name nameless right now) has this posted on their website. They are Oneness and Baptise in Jesus Name and believe in the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues. I just wanted everyones view point. Thanks for your responses.

THREE DIMENSIONS OF ONE GOD (1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 1 Tim 3:16)
We believe in one God who is eternal in His existence, Triune in His manifestation, being both Father, Son and Holy Ghost AND that He is Sovereign and Absolute in His authority.

We believe in the Father who is God Himself, Creator of the universe. (Gen 1:1; John 1:1)

We believe that Jesus is the Son of God. (Col 2:9)
He suffered, died, was buried, and rose from the dead for our total salvation (Luke 3:21-22; Philippians 2:5-11).

We believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Him (John 3:36; John 3:31-32; John 14:6).

We believe in the Holy Spirit who is God indwelling, empowering and regenerating the believer. This Holy Spirit is called the Comforter. The Spirit of Truth (John 14:17, 14:26)

We believe that the blood of Jesus Christ atones for our sins and iniquity. It is through His shed blood that we are saved, healed and set free from bondage and the forces of darkness (Romans 5:9-11; Ephesians 1:7; Revelation 12:11).

We believe that every believer must have a personal and intimate relationship with Jesus Christ, for apart from Him we can do nothing. Each person has a ministry from God that no one else can fill. We are to instruct, teach, exhort, and admonish believers in the ways of God (John 15:1-5; Hebrews 13:5-6).

We believe that the Bible is the true infallible Word of God, which cleanses our souls. It holds the words of eternal life and the keys of the Kingdom of God. The Bible shows us God's principles and standards for living; and it is the food that sustains us in all circumstances (John 1:14; 2 Timothy 3: 16-17; 1 John 2:5-6).

We believe that we are to wash and renew our minds daily by the Word of God.

We must learn His ways and exchange our way of thinking for His. We are to be conformed to the Kingdom of God by the molding and shaping of His Hands (Romans 12:1-2; Ephesians 4:23-29; Philippians 4:8).

We believe in justification by faith. We believe that salvation is free and apart from any work of man is a result of the sovereign grace of God. (Eph 2:8-9, Gal 5:5, Rom 5:1)

We believe in worshipping the Lord in spirit, song, dance and with the raising of our hands. We believe that we are to praise and worship Him with our whole being (Psalms 150:1-6; John 4:24).

We believe that in Godly living and the pursuit of a holy life should be the goal of every believer. (Heb 12:14, Phil 3:14)

We believe that believers should be water baptized by immersion for the circumcision of our hearts. It is through baptism that we publicly identify with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Romans 6:3-6; Colossians 2:11-14; Acts 2:38).

We believe that all Christians need to partake of the communion elements which represent the Lord Jesus' body and blood. It is by participating in the Lord's Supper that we proclaim His death until His return (John 6:53-58; 1 Corinthians 11:23-30).

We believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the sign of speaking in other tongues. We believe that Christians must be filled daily by using our prayer language, but the evidence of the Holy Spirit's indwelling presence is a changed life (Acts 2:4; Ephesians 5:18-21).

We believe in the manifestation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. He ministers to His people through tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy; words of knowledge and wisdom, discerning of spirits, faith, working of miracles, and healing (Mark 16:15-18; Acts 5:16; 2 Corinthians 12:1-11).

We believe that it is God's will to heal and deliver His people today as He did in the days of the first Apostles. It is by the stripes of Jesus that we are healed, delivered and made whole. We have authority over sickness, disease, demons, curses, and every circumstance in life (Luke 10:19; 2 Corinthians 10:4-5; 1 Peter 2:24).

"Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature... And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." (Mark 16:15-18)
I might have missed it, but does it say Jesus is God? I saw JEsus is the Son of God...but is Jesus God?

[Praxeas]

http://media.www.dailytoreador.com/media/storage/paper870/news/2006/02/24/News/Hindus.Believe.In.One.God.With.Three.Dimensions-1636261.shtml

[pelathais]

PraiseHymn, what is the source for this statement of faith?

Personally, I cou;d get past the statement: "... being both Father, Son and Holy Ghost..."

"Both" means "two," not three. The statement should say something like, "being Father, Son and Holy Ghost..." A simple mistake of grammar like this seems to reveal an over-eagerness on the part of the author to glad-hand the subject rather than to grappel earnestly with the complexities involved.

I'd rather see a simple statement that I disagree with than a mistakenly worded statement that tries to be all things to everyone. How about if we lay asided this idea that we human beings are omniscient and just accept the fact that there will be differences among us? That's an "Apostolic" principle too.

[Hoovie]

PraiseHymn, what is the source for this statement of faith?

Personally, I cou;d get past the statement: "... being both Father, Son and Holy Ghost..."

"Both" means "two," not three. The statement should say something like, "being Father, Son and Holy Ghost..." A simple mistake of grammar like this seems to reveal an over-eagerness on the part of the author to glad-hand the subject rather than to grappel earnestly with the complexities involved.

I'd rather see a simple statement that I disagree with than a mistakenly worded statement that tries to be all things to everyone. How about if we lay asided this idea that we human beings are omniscient and just accept the fact that there will be differences among us? That's an "Apostolic" principle too.

I chalked that up as a typo, but you are right - how much thought and serenity went into it if they let that stand?

[pelathais]

I chalked that up as a typo, but you are right - how much thought and serenity went into it if they let that stand?
Of course, like I'm the one to criticize on a typo... http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon11.gif

It's just that there is complexity within the Godhead and sometimes it's very obvious that we as Oneness people are not always prepared to grapple with that.

And for the record... that's one thing that I liked about the WPF statement of faith. It does acknowledge the complexities in what I thought was a theologically mature fashion.

[Hoovie]

Of course, like I'm the one to criticize on a typo... http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon11.gif

It's just that there is complexity within the Godhead and sometimes it's very obvious that we as Oneness people are not always prepared to grapple with that.

And for the record... that's one thing that I liked about the WPF statement of faith. It does acknowledge the complexities in what I thought was a theologically mature fashion.


That would be Talmage French's mind at work.

[Rico]

I didn't vote, but my guess is the voting will more than likely fall along 1 vs 3 stepper lines.

[Joelel]

Apostolic means the teaching of the apostles.You must believe the full truth teaching of the apostles to be apostolic.

[PraiseHymn]

Thanks for everyone's response. Most probably already know this statement of Faith came from TD Jakes The Potters House website. I did not want to say who the Pastor was in the beginning because I did not want everyone to judge the pastor. I just wanted everyone to critique the statement of faith. I am sure this has been hashed and re-hashed before but below is an article Bishop Jakes participated in concerning his views.

My Views on the Godhead
Jakes responds to Christianity Today article, Apologetics Journal Criticizes Jakes.
By Bishop T. D. Jakes | Hearsay, not heresy. | posted 2/01/2000 12:00AM


I was raised Baptist and became Pentecostal 26 years ago at a Greater Emmanuel Apostolic Church, where I was later ordained a Bishop. I resigned from that denomination 11 years ago, and have continued to fellowship with Higher Ground Always Abounding Assemblies. This small fellowship of churches is not a denomination, and differs in many ways from traditional Apostolic churches.

Both chapters of my early spiritual journey contributed volumes to my faith and walk with God, helping to hone my character. I was shaped by and appreciate both denominations, but am controlled by neither. My association with Oneness people does not constitute assimilation into their ranks any more than my association with the homeless in our city makes me one of them.

Day-to-day, my affiliation is with the Pater Alliance, an interdenominational network of some 250 churches, which I founded three years ago and serve as CEO, senior minister, and mentor, providing leadership for pastors from Presbyterian, to Baptist, to Pentecostal. My own 23,000-member church, The Potter's House in Dallas, is non-denominational and growing exponentially. There, I serve widely different people whose common desire is to know God, and to grow in the knowledge of, and fellowship with, Jesus Christ.

While I mix with Christians from a broad range of theological perspectives, I speak only for my personal faith and convictions. I am not a theologian, and I avoid quoting even theologians who agree with me. To defend my beliefs, I go directly to the Bible.

My views on the Godhead are from 1 John 5:7-8, "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." (NKJV)

I believe in one God who is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I believe these three have distinct and separate functions—so separate that each has individual attributes, yet are one. I do not believe in three Gods.

Many things can be said about the Son that cannot be said about the Father. The Son was born of a virgin; the Father created the virgin from whom He was born. The Son slept (Luke 8:23), but the Father never sleeps (Psalm 121:3-5). The Son took on the likeness of sinful flesh (Romans 8:3), but God is a spirit (John 4:24). Likewise, several characteristics are distinctive to the Holy Spirit (John 16:13). The Holy Spirit alone empowers (Acts 1:8), indwells (2 Timothy 1:15), and guides the believer (John 16:14).

In spite of all the distinctives, God is one in His essence. Though no human illustration perfectly fits the Divine, it is similar to ice, water and steam: three separate forms, yet all H²O. Each element can co-exist, each has distinguishing characteristics and functions, but all have sameness.

In 1 Timothy 3:16, the Apostle Paul says, "Without controversy, great is the mystery of Godliness." Without controversy, it is a mystery, not always to be figured out, but to be entered into.

The language in the doctrinal statement of our ministry that refers to the Trinity of the Godhead as "manifestations" does not derive from modalism. The Apostle Paul himself used this term referring to the Godhead in 1 Timothy 3:15, 1 Corinthians 12:7, and 1 John 3:5-8. Peter also used the term in 1 Peter 1:20. Can this word now be heresy when it is a direct quote from the Pauline epistles and used elsewhere in the New Testament?

I believe Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. I believe He was born of a virgin, crucified on a cross, arose from the dead, and is coming again for His church. I believe He sent the Holy Spirit to lead and guide the Church. And I believe in justification by faith. I also believe that baptism is a commandment to be observed in obedience to God's Word. The rites of baptism are celebrated in our church by immersion in the name of Jesus Christ. I have always, without exception, baptized as the early church did in Acts 2:38, 10:44 and 9:1-4. That is my conviction, based on Scripture.

Nevertheless, many of my respected colleagues quote Matthew 28:19 when they baptize, while others use both, saying, "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, we do all things in Jesus' name." Our love for the same Lord has enabled us to walk together in love without dissension and in spite of variance in procedures.

I deeply appreciate the chance to respond to any misunderstandings that may have resulted in part from my silence on these subjects. Little if any attention is given to any of them in my books or sermons. My silence has not been some veiled attempt to disguise my faith, which is demonstrated daily in the works I have been called to do. My voice may have seemed muted on these subjects, but I have made a distinct sound regarding the matters that I have been assigned to discuss with my generation. I have spoken boldly against domestic violence—and against physical, sexual and emotional abuse of women in this nation. I have thundered as an advocate of reconciliation between races and denominations, and for restoration of hurting souls to the healing properties of Christ's love.

I confess that I have remained aloof from the theological controversies. And I confess I have been universal in my associations, purposely ignoring opportunities to be divisive. But it was not lack of conviction, or absence of proper Christian ideals, that had taken my attention—I love the great principles and tenets of our faith, and I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yet it is not the oneness of God for which I cry, it is for the oneness of His people.

When I think of the Trinity, I consider how Jesus prayed under the unction of the Holy Spirit that we would be one even as He and the Father are one. To that end, I preach, write and work. No truth exemplified by the Trinity is greater than Christian unity. As we seek to dissect the divine, articulate the abstract, and defend what I agree are precious truths, I hope we do not miss the greater message taught by the concept of the Trinity. And that is that three—though distinct—are still one!

Bishop T.D. Jakes is the founder and Senior Pastor of The Potter's House in Dallas, one of the largest churches in the nation.

Related Elsewhere

See today's related article, " Apologetics Journal Criticizes T.D. Jakes | Christian Research Institute publication questions preacher's view of Trinity"

[Hoovie]

This is old news but I do like TD Jakes take on the Oneness.

[Cindy]

I still like to hear him preach.

[Cindy]

I would not however call him a pastor. His church is way too big for that, as are some others. It's a business.

[pelathais]

I would not however call him a pastor. His church is way too big for that, as are some others. It's a business.
I'm sure many of those who look at Jakes' ministry and see that huge body of believers from afar might feel some apprehension about the whole thing. As one such "outsider" I wonder what it's like to either be involved as a parishoner or as a member of the ministery there.

But I'm sure that Jakes is wise enough to keep his finger on the pulse of the people he leads. He obviously cannot "pastor" the 10,000's of people who attend services at the Potter's House with the same level of contact and rapport. But he probably pastors the pastors and many of the "old timers" still.

The fact that he has been able to keep it all together at this level does show he knows something about business, too; if only the ability to find the right businessmen to help him out. But many people simply don't like "mega-churches." In fact, from the numbers reported across denominational lines most Christians don't attend the mega churches in their area. I don't know what the numbers are today, but several years ago Barna reported that the average size of a church in America was 75 members.

[Praxeas]

This is old news but I do like TD Jakes take on the Oneness.
Jakes does not claim to be Oneness though..

[Cindy]

I'm sure many of those who look at Jakes' ministry and see that huge body of believers from afar might feel some apprehension about the whole thing. As one such "outsider" I wonder what it's like to either be involved as a parishoner or as a member of the ministery there.

But I'm sure that Jakes is wise enough to keep his finger on the pulse of the people he leads. He obviously cannot "pastor" the 10,000's of people who attend services at the Potter's House with the same level of contact and rapport. But he probably pastors the pastors and many of the "old timers" still.

The fact that he has been able to keep it all together at this level does show he knows something about business, too; if only the ability to find the right businessmen to help him out. But many people simply don't like "mega-churches." In fact, from the numbers reported across denominational lines most Christians don't attend the mega churches in their area. I don't know what the numbers are today, but several years ago Barna reported that the average size of a church in America was 75 members.

I am sure he has many associate pastor's. I guess I just don't think of him that way because of just the size alone, and the many ministries he has going on. I wonder how many original church members he has now. And I wonder how many hospital visits he makes a week, and if a member calls him in the middle of the night if he goes personally or sends an associate. Or if he even takes members calls.