Does no one accept responsibility any more?

[ManOfWord]

I read the political hoopla and the threads about what the government should do FOR us and it just seems to me like there are so many people who want the government to do everything including wiping their "nose" when they have a sniffle.

Where has personal responsibility gone?

Why is it the government's responsibility to find me a job?
Why is it the government's responsibility to heal me when I'm sick?
Why is it the governments responsibility to put food on my table?
Why is it the governments responsibility to make sure that I make enough money?
Why is it the governments responsibility to control gas prices?
Why is it the governments responsibility to tell me how to raise my kids?
Why is it the governments responsibility to bail me out of my house mortgage when I was the one who signed the contract for a bad loan deal?
Why is it the governments responsibility to bail out the airline industry or any industry for that matter? Why should I be responsible for someone's else's bad business decisions?

Have Americans really become so soft and wimpy that they can't take life by the horns, man up and do what is right?


If I can't afford health care like people who make lots of money, then I can't. No big deal. It's not their responsibility to take care of me. If I can't afford to send my kids to college, then they can join the Armed forces and get them to pay for it after they have done their duty.

There ARE jobs out there. Many of them may not pay boat loads of money, but if you can't afford your life style, they you'll just have to pare down and adjust it. It really isn't rocket science.

Don't have many job skills? GET SOME! READ A BOOK! FIGURE SOMETHING OUT! Apply yourself and stop whining.

As great a country as America has been it just really ticks me off (can you tell?) that our citizens wring their hands and whine and moan and belly ache and complain instead of getting off their fat duff and doing something about it....like work! Kill the cable bill, get rid of the expensive cell phone, stop buying cigarettes, booze, lottery tickets and stop using credit cards to finance your lifestyle!!!

Accept the responsibility! In America, there are few obstacles and "scads" of opportunities!!! Become a winner not a whiner!! :D



I'm MOW and I approve this message

[Baron1710]

Isn't it obvious why the government owes me all this stuff? Because they didn’t GIVE me a good enough education. I passed a Wendy’s the other day and the sign out front said, “Wraps is Here” it’s been that way for 3 weeks now.

We need more Americans like MOW!!!

[rgcraig]

Isn't it obvious why the government owes me all this stuff? Because they didn’t GIVE me a good enough education. I passed a Wendy’s the other day and the sign out front said, “Wraps is Here” it’s been that way for 3 weeks now.

We need more Americans like MOW!!!
Lol - pitiful!

[mizpeh]

Isn't it obvious why the government owes me all this stuff? Because they didn’t GIVE me a good enough education. I passed a Wendy’s the other day and the sign out front said, “Wraps is Here” it’s been that way for 3 weeks now.

We need more Americans like MOW!!!

Who is Wraps? :gaga

[DividedThigh]

i agree with mow, he must be one of those fascist like me, we actually expect people to buck up and take responsibility for themselves, what a crime, dt

[Grasshopper]

Holman Bible Dictionary

JUSTICE

The order God seeks to reestablish in His creation where all people receive the benefits of life with Him. As love is for the New Testament, so justice is the central ethical idea of the Old Testament. The frequency of justice is sometimes missed by the reader due to a failure to realize that the wide range of the Hebrew word mishpat, particularly in passages that deal with the material and social necessities of life.

Nature of justice Justice has two major aspects. First, it is the standard by which penalties are assigned for breaking the obligations of the society. Second, justice is the standard by which the advantages of social life are handed out, including material goods, rights of participation, opportunities, and liberties. It is the standard for both punishment and benefits and thus can be spoken of as a plumb line. “I shall use justice as a plumb-line, and righteousness as a plummet” (Isaiah 28:17, REB).

Often people think of justice in the Bible only in the first sense as God's wrath on evil. This aspect of justice indeed is present, such as the judgment mentioned in John 3:19. Often more vivid words like “wrath” are used to describe punitive justice (Romans 1:18).

Justice in the Bible very frequently also deals with benefits. Cultures differ widely in determining the basis by which the benefits are to be justly distributed. For some it is by birth and nobility. For others the basis is might or ability or merit. Or it might simply be whatever is the law or whatever has been established by contracts. The Bible takes another possibility. Benefits are distributed according to need. Justice then is very close to love and grace. God “executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and… loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing” (Deuteronomy 10:18, NRSV; compare Hosea 10:12; Isaiah 30:18).

Various needy groups are the recipients of justice. These groups include widows, orphans, resident aliens (also called “sojourners” or “strangers”), wage earners, the poor, and prisoners, slaves, and the sick (Job 29:12-17; Psalms 146:7-9; Malachi 3:5). Each of these groups has specific needs which keep its members from being able to participate in aspects of the life of their community. Even life itself might be threatened. Justice involves meeting those needs. The forces which deprive people of what is basic for community life are condemned as oppression (Micah 2:2; Ecclesiastes 4:1). To oppress is to use power for one's own advantage in depriving others of their basic rights in the community (see Mark 12:40). To do justice is to correct that abuse and to meet those needs (Isaiah 1:17). Injustice is depriving others of their basic needs or failing to correct matters when those rights are not met (Jeremiah 5:28; Job 29:12-17). Injustice is either a sin of commission or of omission.

The content of justice, the benefits which are to be distributed as basic rights in the community, can be identified by observing what is at stake in the passages in which “justice,” “righteousness,” and “judgment” occur. The needs which are met include land (Ezekiel 45:6-9; compare Micah 2:2; Micah 4:4) and the means to produce from the land, such as draft animals and millstones (Deuteronomy 22:1-4; Deuteronomy 24:6). These productive concerns are basic to securing other essential needs and thus avoiding dependency; thus the millstone is called the “life” of the person (Deuteronomy 24:6). Other needs are those essential for mere physical existence and well being: food (Deuteronomy 10:18; Psalms 146:7), clothing (Deuteronomy 24:13), and shelter (Psalms 68:6; Job 8:6). Job 22:5-9,Job 22:23; Job 24:1-12 decries the injustice of depriving people of each one of these needs, which are material and economic. The equal protection of each person in civil and judicial procedures is represented in the demand for due process (Deuteronomy 16:18-20). Freedom from bondage is comparable to not being “in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and lack of everything” (Deuteronomy 28:48 NRSV).

Justice presupposes God's intention for people to be in community. When people had become poor and weak with respect to the rest of the community, they were to be strengthened so that they could continue to be effective members of the community—living with them and beside them (Leviticus 25:35-36). Thus biblical justice restores people to community. By justice those who lacked the power and resources to participate in significant aspects of the community were to be strengthened so that they could. This concern in Leviticus 25:1 is illustrated by the provision of the year of Jubilee, in which at the end of the fifty year period land is restored to those who had lost it through sale or foreclosure of debts (Leviticus 25:28). Thus they regained economic power and were brought back into the economic community. Similarly, interest on loans was prohibited (Leviticus 25:36) as a process which pulled people down, endangering their position in the community.

These legal provisions express a further characteristic of justice. Justice delivers; it does not merely relieve the immediate needs of those in dire straits (Psalms 76:9; Isaiah 45:8; Isaiah 58:11; Isaiah 62:1-2). Helping the needy means setting them back on their feet, giving a home, leading to prosperity, restoration, ending the oppression (Psalms 68:5-10; Psalms 10:15-16; compare 107; Psalms 113:7-9). Such thorough justice can be socially disruptive. In the Jubilee year as some receive back lands, others lose recently-acquired additional land. The advantage to some is a disadvantage to others. In some cases the two aspects of justice come together. In the act of restoration, those who were victims of justice receive benefits while their exploiters are punished (1 Samuel 2:7-10; compare Luke 1:51-53; Luke 6:20-26).

The source of justice As the sovereign Creator of the universe, God is just (Psalms 99:1-4; Genesis 18:25; Deuteronomy 32:4; Jeremiah 9:24), particularly as the defender of all the oppressed of the earth (Psalms 76:9; Psalms 103:6; Jeremiah 49:11). Justice thus is universal (Psalms 9:7-9) and applies to each covenant or dispensation. Jesus affirmed for His day the centrality of the Old Testament demand for justice (Matthew 23:23). Justice is the work of the New Testament people of God (James 1:27).

God's justice is not a distant external standard. It is the source of all human justice (Proverbs 29:26; 2 Chronicles 19:6,2 Chronicles 19:9). Justice is grace received and grace shared (2 Corinthians 9:8-10).

The most prominent human agent of justice is the ruler. The king receives God's justice and is a channel for it (Psalms 72:1; compare Romans 13:1-2,Romans 13:4). There is not a distinction between a personal, voluntary justice and a legal, public justice. The same caring for the needy groups of the society is demanded of the ruler (Psalms 72:4; Ezekiel 34:4; Jeremiah 22:15-16). Such justice was also required of pagan rulers (Daniel 4:27; Proverbs 31:8-9).

Justice is also a central demand on all people who bear the name of God. Its claim is so basic that without it other central demands and provisions of God are not acceptable to God. Justice is required to be present with the sacrificial system (Amos 5:21-24; Micah 6:6-8; Isaiah 1:11-17; Matthew 5:23-24), fasting (Isaiah 58:1-10), tithing (Matthew 23:23), obedience to the other commandments (Matthew 19:16-21), or the presence of the Temple of God (Jeremiah 7:1-7).

Justice in salvation Apart from describing God's condemnation of sin, Paul used the language and meaning of justice to speak of personal salvation. “The righteousness of God” represents God in grace bringing into the community of God through faith in Christ those who had been outside of the people of God (particularly in Romans but compare also Ephesians 2:12-13). See Law; Government; Poverty; Righteousness; Welfare.

Stephen Charles Mott

We need to revisit these principles of faith.

[DividedThigh]

i find the grass hoppers words offensive, i think it is evil to wish bad on others, especially on people you know nothing about, dt

[Baron1710]

You clearly don’t know what people are going through.



It’s not the government’s responsibility to find Americans jobs…but it is their responsibility to protect American jobs…a jobless America will doom America and devastate families.



Right now there are over 50 million people who are uninsured and an additional 140 million who have insufficient coverage. When these individuals seek medical services and don’t have insurance they are billed. Most can’t cover the cost and bills aren’t paid (25,000 Americans declare bankruptcy every year due to medical bills). When those bills aren’t paid the health care industry raises the cost of health care to cover the loss. When the cost of health care increases it increases the cost of our insurance premiums. When the cost of insurance increases more opt out because they can’t afford it and then you have MORE people who are uninsured driving up the costs even more. So more and more of other uninsured people’s medical debt are levied upon the insured driving up our premiums. There is only one of two answers. Stop treating the uninsured all together. You’d see health care costs drop immediately. But that would be immoral. No one would deny treatment to a hurting person just because they don’t have insurance. So the next logical step is…make everyone pay into a national health insurance plan that covers everyone. All pay in and all get services. Right now it’s like this…imagine you’re sitting in a restaurant. You get your bill and give your bank card to the waiter. The waiter returns and you see that you’ve been billed for nearly a third of everyone in the restaurant. That isn’t right! At that point you need to call the authorities and force the restaurant to make everyone pay their fair share. That’s what national health insurance is about. Since everyone gets services…everyone should pay into the system.



Widows, orphans, and strangers had a right to gleaning fields in the OT. These were protected classes. You being an able bodied male should have no right to government assistance. But single mothers and children who have been abandoned by their fathers should be supported. It’s called social morality or social justice.



The Law of Moses demanded that a wage be fair and livable. Look it up.



Because if they don’t you soon won’t be able to afford food for your family.



Because brutally beating your children is deplorable.



Because the lending practices on the back end were negligent and used to be illegal.



Because failure of the airlines could harm the entire infrastructure of business.



Get a life.



I hope that one day you can’t. Let’s see you practice what you preach.



Other nations are subsidizing increasing numbers of their youth. If America fails to make higher education available consider us a third world nation. We’ll be run by more advanced societies that invest in their most precious resources…future citizens.



You obviously want more families raising kids in the ghettos. You can’t raise a family on minimum wage. Survival isn’t living. Also it will encourage the criminal element. Crime will pay more than hard work. Don’t doubt your kids will look at the peanuts you make and opt to sell drugs.



Agreed. But you don’t need job skills for the majority of American jobs anymore.



Agreed, some costs could be cut. But it will not be significant in the long run. Credit card companies should be regulated as they were in the days when they first came out. Most people who have credit cards shouldn’t qualify for them.



I pray to God you find yourself destitute. For with what measure you judge is the measure you will meet.

Stop being a highly insulting right wing mental midget and be a Christian.

Steal from the man to pay for all those social programs you love so much and then wish horrible things on him so that he can no longer support your socialist programs. Nice.

[DividedThigh]

well said baron, dt

[Grasshopper]

I pray he finds himself as destitute as those he judges.

[DividedThigh]

i dont recall him judging anyone, god wont answer your prayer to afflict a serving pastor of many years who gives his life for the church and the people he serves, you are shameful, dt

[Grasshopper]

i dont recall him judging anyone, god wont answer your prayer to afflict a serving pastor of many years who gives his life for the church and the people he serves, you are shameful, dt

I've known God to wash out pastors with tenure due to lack of compassion and judgment. Pastors aren't little popes who can deride and brow beat the destitute and hurting and expect God to shut up. God punished the priesthood for their abuses. I believe God can correct an abusive man of God.

[Esther]

I pray he finds himself as destitute as those he judges.

What a non Christian post. Ignorant at best!

[Grasshopper]

Steal from the man to pay for all those social programs you love so much and then wish horrible things on him so that he can no longer support your socialist programs. Nice.

Taxes aren't stealing. Jesus and Paul admonished Christians to pay taxes...and the Romans charged more taxes than the U.S. does and got far less in return. So don't whine.

[Grasshopper]

What a non Christian post. Ignorant at best!

This guy writes a post brow beating those caught in preditory lending schemes that should be illegal or who have lost their jobs to free trade marketeers who care nothing about America's working families....and I'm unChristian for calling him on it. Hardly. The man needs to feel the destitution...then he'll be more compassionate.

For example I know a sweet Apostolic couple who are loosing all they've worked for in this housing crisis. I'd never call them irresponsible and decry efforts to help them...especially when the lending practices were orginally shady on the back end. The problem is few understand how these lending schemes boarder on being illegal...and would have been before deregulation of the banking industry.

[Baron1710]

I've known God to wash out pastors with tenure due to lack of compassion and judgment. Pastors aren't little popes who can deride and brow beat the destitute and hurting and expect God to shut up. God punished the priesthood for their abuses. I believe God can correct an abusive man of God.

What's abusive is to steal from those who have so the government can keep people in Ghetto's through housing subsidies, welfare, food stamps etc. If people really didn't eat unless they worked they would find a way out of those situations. Hunger is a powerful motivator. I am not suggesting that Christians don't have an obligation to help the poor, those truly in need, I am adamant that this is NEVER the responsibility of government. Forced charity is no charity at all.

[DividedThigh]

your words are shameful and hurtful grassy boy, you dont know mow, and you dont know us, i am well aware of gods judgement on pastors, fact is mow is right, we do need to accept responsiblity for our own selves, you are caught up in the web of ignorance on this one, grow up, dt

[Baron1710]

Taxes aren't stealing. Jesus and Paul admonished Christians to pay taxes...and the Romans charged more taxes than the U.S. does and got far less in return. So don't whine.

Seems to me there were some tax collectors who were admonished about stealing from the people as well. The Jews felt the same way about tax collectors in the 1st century as I do today. When you advocate taking from me, even in the form of taxes, to spend on your pet project that is stealing. Taking what doesn't belong to you through force is stealing.

[DividedThigh]

why dont you just put your face up there, we know it is you chris, good grief, dt

[Grasshopper]

What's abusive is to steal from those who have so the government can keep people in Ghetto's through housing subsidies, welfare, food stamps etc. If people really didn't eat unless they worked they would find a way out of those situations.

Yep, it’s called robbery and crime.

Hunger is a powerful motivator. I am not suggesting that Christians don't have an obligation to help the poor, those truly in need, I am adamant that this is NEVER the responsibility of government. Forced charity is no charity at all.

I think your position is ignorant of the Bible. The Law of Moses was the law of a nation. The civil Law of Israel had what is known as the “right of the poor” or the “right of the widow”. This “right” was the right to glean the fields of wealthy land owners for basic sustenance. Also the entire nation took a third years tithe to fund the storehouse where the nations’ poor could turn in times of need. All of these things are agrarian social welfare systems. In the OT it was consider oppression to deny the poor their rights to the edges and corners of your field and they could lay charges against you at the gate (study Amos).

When the government allows exploitation, for example with the lending crisis, it has the responsibility to right the wrong.

[Grasshopper]

your words are shameful and hurtful grassy boy, you dont know mow, and you dont know us, i am well aware of gods judgement on pastors, fact is mow is right, we do need to accept responsiblity for our own selves, you are caught up in the web of ignorance on this one, grow up, dt

The man denigrated hurting people for personal satisfaction on this thread. I know people who are hurting. My family almost lost our house but because of the government's actions to right the wrong of the deregulated industry we got to keep it. HOW DARE HE insinuate that I'm irresponsible when he doesn't know a God forsaken thing about my situation.

[DividedThigh]

i hear chris hall, lol,dt

[Grasshopper]

Seems to me there were some tax collectors who were admonished about stealing from the people as well. The Jews felt the same way about tax collectors in the 1st century as I do today. When you advocate taking from me, even in the form of taxes, to spend on your pet project that is stealing. Taking what doesn't belong to you through force is stealing.

You’re twisting the Scriptures and showing your ignorance of the facts. The tax collectors were admonished not to steal from the people. You see, they were demanding more from people than they truly owed and pocketing the difference.

Do you believe the current health care industry is stealing from you by increasing your premiums to pay for the uninsured who are paying little to nothing toward the care they received in the ERs???

Government forcing everyone to carry a health insurance plan isn’t stealing from you…it’s making sure everyone pays their fair share so costs stabilize.

[ManOfWord]

I pray he finds himself as destitute as those he judges.

The only time I have been without a job was when I was stupid enough to quit one without first having another. That was my stupidity and I paid for it. The government should not bail me out of my stupidity. I work hard to take care of my family. When I pastored a small church, I worked a full time job to take care of them. There is no excuse for laziness and slothfulness. I've made bad financial decisions before, and took my lumps because I made the decision. I expect no one to bail me out. I even took out an interest only loan and paid more than the principle to take advantage of it as long as the market was with me. I knew what was coming in a few years. I knew the payment would go WAY up. When the market turned, and before the payment went up, I got out of it and found a very low, fixed interest loan. You can do that when you're responsible and have good credit because you follow God's word by paying your bills on time. The slothful can't do that because they don't follow God's word.

I've known God to wash out pastors with tenure due to lack of compassion and judgment. Pastors aren't little popes who can deride and brow beat the destitute and hurting and expect God to shut up. God punished the priesthood for their abuses. I believe God can correct an abusive man of God.

If someone has a legitimate need and is doing the best they can, I'm all for helping them. If they're lazy and have an entitlement attitude, let them go hungry. America is a country with a gazillion opportunities for those who are diligent and live within their means. If a person has a good work ethic and is faithful there will always be work for them to do. It may not be at the level they want, but God always rewards the industrious.

We're not talking about people who can't take care of themselves, but people who won't. I have no compassion for someone who is not willing to try. Someone who is willing to try, I'll work with all day!

[DividedThigh]

and you ignorantly believe the govt can handle health care when they mess up everything else they touch, what hogwash, dt

[ManOfWord]

The man denigrated hurting people for personal satisfaction on this thread. I know people who are hurting. My family almost lost our house but because of the government's actions to right the wrong of the deregulated industry we got to keep it. HOW DARE HE insinuate that I'm irresponsible when he doesn't know a God forsaken thing about my situation.


I think you need a ride on the http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k187/manofword/Waaambulance.jpg

[Baron1710]

You’re twisting the Scriptures and showing your ignorance of the facts. The tax collectors were admonished not to steal from the people. You see, they were demanding more from people than they truly owed and pocketing the difference.

Do you believe the current health care industry is stealing from you by increasing your premiums to pay for the uninsured who are paying little to nothing toward the care they received in the ERs???

Government forcing everyone to carry a health insurance plan isn’t stealing from you…it’s making sure everyone pays their fair share so costs stabilize.

I don't believe I am as ignorant as you have stated in several posts now. I also fundamentally disagree with your socialist views. You can complain that I am calling you a socialist all you want the reality is you espouse socialism. I am not going down the road your essays on health scare either. You don't have a right to it. Get over it. I don't want the government forcing me to do anything...not even for if YOU think it’s in my best interest.

Government is not the answer.

[OP_Carl]

I read the political hoopla and the threads about what the government should do FOR us and it just seems to me like there are so many people who want the government to do everything including wiping their "nose" when they have a sniffle.

Where has personal responsibility gone?

Why is it the government's responsibility to find me a job?
Why is it the government's responsibility to heal me when I'm sick?
Why is it the governments responsibility to put food on my table?
Why is it the governments responsibility to make sure that I make enough money?
Why is it the governments responsibility to control gas prices?
Why is it the governments responsibility to tell me how to raise my kids?
Why is it the governments responsibility to bail me out of my house mortgage when I was the one who signed the contract for a bad loan deal?
Why is it the governments responsibility to bail out the airline industry or any industry for that matter? Why should I be responsible for someone's else's bad business decisions?

Have Americans really become so soft and wimpy that they can't take life by the horns, man up and do what is right?


If I can't afford health care like people who make lots of money, then I can't. No big deal. It's not their responsibility to take care of me. If I can't afford to send my kids to college, then they can join the Armed forces and get them to pay for it after they have done their duty.

There ARE jobs out there. Many of them may not pay boat loads of money, but if you can't afford your life style, they you'll just have to pare down and adjust it. It really isn't rocket science.

Don't have many job skills? GET SOME! READ A BOOK! FIGURE SOMETHING OUT! Apply yourself and stop whining.

As great a country as America has been it just really ticks me off (can you tell?) that our citizens wring their hands and whine and moan and belly ache and complain instead of getting off their fat duff and doing something about it....like work! Kill the cable bill, get rid of the expensive cell phone, stop buying cigarettes, booze, lottery tickets and stop using credit cards to finance your lifestyle!!!

Accept the responsibility! In America, there are few obstacles and "scads" of opportunities!!! Become a winner not a whiner!! :D



I'm MOW and I approve this message

Amen! MOW for Prez! :stars


This is exactly what the government school system is designed to produce: Dependent, compliant, patriotic, unquestioning citizens incapable of critical thought and subject to peer pressure to conform.

Stop Socialism! Stop Communism! Stop Redistributionism! :happydance

[ManOfWord]

Government is not the answer.


Government has NEVER been the answer. The answer is personal responsibility! Actions have consequences and I am responsible for them.

[Grasshopper]

i hear chris hall, lol,dt

Don’t be ignorant. I’ve told nearly everyone I’m posting with about this new handle. Ask Baron about it…he was there when I created it. You see Ferd, you, and others were calling me such names and slandering my character I decided to take on a different name so I could express my feelings without being openly slandered. Here’s what happened on another forum. I was on Apostolic Man forum and posted some things about President Bush. I was called a liberal, a commie, and all this garbage. Well a few brothers from the church I used to attend read some of what I wrote. One day after men’s prayer they approached me with political questions and said they read what I wrote about President Bush. They told me how they felt, “a communist”, shouldn’t go to church there. It turned into a shoving match as I tried to get into my car to get away from them. When you guys began slandering me under my real name I realized I better take on another alias just to give myself some anonymity. I don’t know who you are DT…and I wouldn’t want to put you in any kind of danger. So stop making fun of me and slandering me. It’s a darn shame when you can’t disagree with conservative Apostolic brothers on politics without being harassed and risking some degree of danger but that’s the world we live in. Well, when I decided it best to go by a different handle Baron had called me, “young grasshopper”, so I adopted the title in his honor. So please DT….get a life and stop trying to brow beat people you don’t agree with. And if you continue to try to connect my real name with my posts I’ll take it as an effort to expose me to personal slander and/or harm. I’m not playing with you. Please respect my wishes.

[DividedThigh]

is mow running, got a vote here, lol,dt

[OP_Carl]

. . . I passed a Wendy’s the other day and the sign out front said, “Wraps is Here” it’s been that way for 3 weeks now.

The Taco Bell in my town occasionally puts on its sign:

NOW HIRING LOSERS

I hope it's because somebody keeps stealing the "C"

[DividedThigh]

Don’t be ignorant. I’ve told nearly everyone I’m posting with about this new handle. Ask Baron about it…he was there when I created it. You see Ferd, you, and others were calling me such names and slandering my character I decided to take on a different name so I could express my feelings without being openly slandered. Here’s what happened on another forum. I was on Apostolic Man forum and posted some things about President Bush. I was called a liberal, a commie, and all this garbage. Well a few brothers from the church I used to attend read some of what I wrote. One day after men’s prayer they approached me with political questions and said they read what I wrote about President Bush. They told me how they felt, “a communist”, shouldn’t go to church there. It turned into a shoving match as I tried to get into my car to get away from them. When you guys began slandering me under my real name I realized I better take on another alias just to give myself some anonymity. I don’t know who you are DT…and I wouldn’t want to put you in any kind of danger. So stop making fun of me and slandering me. It’s a darn shame when you can’t disagree with conservative Apostolic brothers on politics without being harassed and risking some degree of danger but that’s the world we live in. Well, when I decided it best to go by a different handle Baron had called me, “young grasshopper”, so I adopted the title in his honor. So please DT….get a life and stop trying to brow beat people you don’t agree with. And if you continue to try to connect my real name with my posts I’ll take it as an effort to expose me to personal slander and/or harm. I’m not playing with you. Please respect my wishes.

i have never slandered you, and dont associate me with what others have dont to you, i feel sorry for you, as i always have, i dont know what you mean, you are silly in my opinion, dont threaten other, and stop being so belligerent, you can post all you want, but dont brow beat others and whine when they dont agree with you, by the way, i dont play boy, dt

[ManOfWord]

And if you continue to try to connect my real name with my posts I’ll take it as an effort to expose me to personal slander and/or harm. I’m not playing with you. Please respect my wishes.

I would suggest that if you don't want people to know who you are, that you don't reveal it yourself. :D (just a suggestion)

[Baron1710]

And if you continue to try to connect my real name with my posts I’ll take it as an effort to expose me to personal slander and/or harm. I’m not playing with you. Please respect my wishes.

Sounds like a threat. Whatcha gonna do grasshopper raise his taxes?

[DividedThigh]

Sounds like a threat. Whatcha gonna do grasshopper raise his taxes?

maybe that is why he likes the dems he wants them to raise my taxes, good one baron, dt

[stmatthew]

Yep, it’s called robbery and crime.



I think your position is ignorant of the Bible. The Law of Moses was the law of a nation. The civil Law of Israel had what is known as the “right of the poor” or the “right of the widow”. This “right” was the right to glean the fields of wealthy land owners for basic sustenance. Also the entire nation took a third years tithe to fund the storehouse where the nations’ poor could turn in times of need. All of these things are agrarian social welfare systems. In the OT it was consider oppression to deny the poor their rights to the edges and corners of your field and they could lay charges against you at the gate (study Amos).

When the government allows exploitation, for example with the lending crisis, it has the responsibility to right the wrong.

I am not going to get into this fight. But my understanding was that a few years back the government demanded that the bar be dropped so that more folks could qualify for loans to own a home. This was the beginning of the end.


While I am not saying there are no cases of predatory lending, I believe that for the majority the responsibility still rests upon the consumer to educate themselves prior to entering into a contract. It is really ignorant to pass that responsibility to anyone other than the consumer. Every library in America has internet, and with this tool anyone can be an informed consumer prior to a purchase. IF the consumer does his due diligence, then he will be able to make an informed decision in his dealings.

Thats my 2 cents anyway.

[Grasshopper]

I don't believe I am as ignorant as you have stated in several posts now. I also fundamentally disagree with your socialist views. You can complain that I am calling you a socialist all you want the reality is you espouse socialism. I am not going down the road your essays on health scare either. You don't have a right to it. Get over it. I don't want the government forcing me to do anything...not even for if YOU think it’s in my best interest.

Government is not the answer.

Here’s an example of your ignorance. A socialist system would have a state insurance provider and force everyone to take a policy with the state provider. It would also make private insurance illegal. That’s nowhere near what’s being advocated.

In the national health insurance plan under the Democrats if you are a employer and providing private insurance for your employees you may freely continue doing so. But if you don’t provide private insurance for employees because it’s too expensive you pay a contribution to the national subsidy. That contribution is indexed to be significantly less than the current insurance rates. If you are employed by an employer who provides insurance you can keep your plan. Or you can opt for the national plan. The national plan is through private insurers and is just like that held by members of congress. The benefit in this plan is that private insurers treat you like you are a government employee in that you benefit from the lower negotiated premiums as government employees do. But ultimately the choice is yours. But in the end the goal is to have every American covered to stabilize health care costs. Insurance companies are really behind this market driven system because not only will it stabilize health care costs but it will provide tens of millions of clients who are not currently clients. This will bring a great boom to the private insurance industry. It’s like in Ohio it became state law to own auto insurance if you want to drive. Not only is everyone covered by an insurer of their choice, but it has brought a boom to the auto insurance market. The entire process is market driven…it’s nothing like a socialist system like you’d see in Canada.

Right now if you were uninsured you could just walk into an ER and get treatment. You can choose not to pay your bill too. But guess what…they will hand that cost down to me in higher costs. Bro…that’s more like socialism than a market driven system where everyone is required to carry some form of health insurance.

I think you’re just not wanting to pay for insurance because you know you can go to the ER and we’ll fit the bill in higher premiums. Now that is THEFT. The government should require YOU to carry your own insurance and that’s what the Democrats are pushing for.

[DividedThigh]

I am not going to get into this fight. But my understanding was that a few years back the government demanded that the bar be dropped so that more folks could qualify for loans to own a home. This was the beginning of the end.


While I am not saying there are no cases of predatory lending, I believe that for the majority the responsibility still rests upon the consumer to educate themselves prior to entering into a contract. It is really ignorant to pass that responsibility to anyone other than the consumer. Every library in America has internet, and with this tool anyone can be an informed consumer prior to a purchase. IF the consumer does his due diligence, then he will be able to make an informed decision in his dealings.

Thats my 2 cents anyway.

your 2 cents is correct st matt, that began the slide that let to the mess we are in now, dt

[Grasshopper]

i have never slandered you, and dont associate me with what others have dont to you, i feel sorry for you, as i always have, i dont know what you mean, you are silly in my opinion, dont threaten other, and stop being so belligerent, you can post all you want, but dont brow beat others and whine when they dont agree with you, by the way, i dont play boy, dt

MOWs post is highly insulting to someone who is actually going through the things he's talking about. I hope he at least has to look at loosing his job, insurance, and home so he can at least feel the pressure and the horror of it all before he judges me or others in those positions again.

[Grasshopper]

I would suggest that if you don't want people to know who you are, that you don't reveal it yourself. :D (just a suggestion)

I was asked about it. Don't take my comments out of context.

[Admin]

Please stop the slander and personal attacks.

Good discussion is encourage, but keep it without attack.

[SDG]

Nicks should be respected too, IMO.

[DividedThigh]

grasshopper, he didnt name you and what he said is true, people do need to take responsibility for themselves, it is to bad your family has struggled, i know about that, but you dont inherit the right to attack mow because of your suffering, neither have i, and i dont ignorantly say mean things to people, when i feel pain, you are revealing your lack of maturity in your anger bro, dt

[The Mrs]

Nicks should be respected too, IMO.

I agree! Anonymity is important to many here...we have rules against exposing members. :nod

[Grasshopper]

I am not going to get into this fight. But my understanding was that a few years back the government demanded that the bar be dropped so that more folks could qualify for loans to own a home. This was the beginning of the end.

That’s the talking point. The reality is that lobbyists from the banking industry pushed for deregulation that allows them to sell high risk mortgages to investment firms to then sell on the international market. It’s very complicated but essentially they were making money on giving high risk loans. It’s been revealed recently that a particular lender set a standard to approve no less than so many loans, regardless of the applicant’s likelihood to be able to pay on the loan. Prior to this deregulation what they did would have been highly questionable and maybe even illegal. And now my property values are suffering because of this corruption and the government’s lack of initiative to insure equitable lending practices. Government should work to put swindlers out of businesses. It’s in the best interests of the people that government serves.

While I am not saying there are no cases of predatory lending, I believe that for the majority the responsibility still rests upon the consumer to educate themselves prior to entering into a contract. It is really ignorant to pass that responsibility to anyone other than the consumer. Every library in America has internet, and with this tool anyone can be an informed consumer prior to a purchase. IF the consumer does his due diligence, then he will be able to make an informed decision in his dealings.

Thats my 2 cents anyway.

True. Every consumer should look into it deeply. But we’re talking about some folks who have gone to school and been licensed in the lending industry…no one will know all the details like they do. Nor should they be expected to. When a lender shows presents a lending scheme because it’s technically legal (now) all they have to do is put in some fancy salesmanship and young family’s who think their dreams are about to materialize can be taken advantage of. There should be strong laws against it. They need to re-regulate the industry because this shouldn’t have happened to begin with.

[Grasshopper]

grasshopper, he didnt name you and what he said is true, people do need to take responsibility for themselves, it is to bad your family has struggled, i know about that, but you dont inherit the right to attack mow because of your suffering, neither have i, and i dont ignorantly say mean things to people, when i feel pain, you are revealing your lack of maturity in your anger bro, dt

Bro...his post makes struggling people and people who were wronged by a corrupt system look like whiners who just don't accept responsibility. Bro...that's very insulting.

[Baron1710]

Here’s an example of your ignorance. A socialist system would have a state insurance provider and force everyone to take a policy with the state provider. It would also make private insurance illegal. That’s nowhere near what’s being advocated.

In the national health insurance plan under the Democrats if you are a employer and providing private insurance for your employees you may freely continue doing so. But if you don’t provide private insurance for employees because it’s too expensive you pay a contribution to the national subsidy. That contribution is indexed to be significantly less than the current insurance rates. If you are employed by an employer who provides insurance you can keep your plan. Or you can opt for the national plan. The national plan is through private insurers and is just like that held by members of congress. The benefit in this plan is that private insurers treat you like you are a government employee in that you benefit from the lower negotiated premiums as government employees do. But ultimately the choice is yours. But in the end the goal is to have every American covered to stabilize health care costs. Insurance companies are really behind this market driven system because not only will it stabilize health care costs but it will provide tens of millions of clients who are not currently clients. This will bring a great boom to the private insurance industry. It’s like in Ohio it became state law to own auto insurance if you want to drive. Not only is everyone covered by an insurer of their choice, but it has brought a boom to the auto insurance market. The entire process is market driven…it’s nothing like a socialist system like you’d see in Canada.

Right now if you were uninsured you could just walk into an ER and get treatment. You can choose not to pay your bill too. But guess what…they will hand that cost down to me in higher costs. Bro…that’s more like socialism than a market driven system where everyone is required to carry some form of health insurance.

I think you’re just not wanting to pay for insurance because you know you can go to the ER and we’ll fit the bill in higher premiums. Now that is THEFT. The government should require YOU to carry your own insurance and that’s what the Democrats are pushing for.

Your differences in your system are laughable. They still have the government forcing me to do something. It is still the government becoming the largest health provider.

As to your final paragraph. You know nothing about me, and your claim is completely false. I have paid every dime of every medical bill I owed. Including thousands of dollars for a prosthesis that needs replacing now and is, in fact, over due for a replacement. But since I am working to send my son to Africa for a month long missions trip to help those less fortunate than us and to share the Gospel, I have put off replacing it until November. So when you wag your finger and give the Bill Clinton DON'T YOU DARE speech to MOW because you have had some problems, stop and think before you make unfounded statements like you just did..

[DividedThigh]

Bro...his post makes struggling people and people who were wronged by a corrupt system look like whiners who just don't accept responsibility. Bro...that's very insulting.

i suggest you find a different way to express your anger toward the system, other than insulting, good people who do care about others, sorry i cant help you, dt

[Grasshopper]

Your differences in your system are laughable. They still have the government forcing me to do something. It is still the government becoming the largest health provider.

As to your final paragraph. You know nothing about me, and your claim is completely false. I have paid every dime of every medical bill I owed. Including thousands of dollars for a prosthesis that needs replacing now and is, in fact, over due for a replacement. But since I am working to send my son to Africa for a month long missions trip to help those less fortunate than us and to share the Gospel, I have put off replacing it until November. So when you wag your finger and give the Bill Clinton DON'T YOU DARE speech to MOW because you have had some problems, stop and think before you make unfounded statements like you just did..

So you don't care that people are going to providers and forcing you to pay their bills, along with fees, and processing costs? Don't you realize your medical bills will be significantly smaller if they had to pay into the system for their care too?

[Grasshopper]

I suggest that MOW at least express that some are struggling in a system that legitimately needs retooled.

[DividedThigh]

you know you wont be able to be better till you let someone help you grasshopper, dt

[Baron1710]

So you don't care that people are going to providers and forcing you to pay their bills, along with fees, and processing costs? Don't you realize your medical bills will be significantly smaller if they had to pay into the system for their care too?

Way to completly avoid dealing with your ridiculous claim. I care, the solution is....wait for it....STOP GIVING THEM FREE HEALTH CARE.

[rgcraig]

The saying "teach a man to fish" comes to my mind when I read threads like this.

As long as the fish are provided free there's no need to learn how to fish.

[DividedThigh]

The saying "teach a man to fish" comes to my mind when I read threads like this.

As long as the fish are provided free there's no need to learn how to fish.

very true renda, no doubt, i guess that is why it wasnt so bad that those people at the childrens home made us learn to work huh, dt

[Rico]

What's abusive is to steal from those who have so the government can keep people in Ghetto's through housing subsidies, welfare, food stamps etc. If people really didn't eat unless they worked they would find a way out of those situations. Hunger is a powerful motivator. I am not suggesting that Christians don't have an obligation to help the poor, those truly in need, I am adamant that this is NEVER the responsibility of government. Forced charity is no charity at all.

Baron, this all sounds good, but when the jobs in any given area don't pay much more than $7-$8 per hour, and someone has a family to feed in the midst of $3 a gallon milk, eggs that cost $2 a dozen, gasoline that costs $3-$4 a gallon, rising utility and rent costs, etc., then government assistance is more of a "have to" type of thing. It's real easy to just say "find a way out of that situation", but talk is cheap, Bro. Getting a degree to find a better paying job is always an option, but even in those situations government assistance is the only thing that makes it possible (grants, government backed student loans). There are no easy answers to solving the issue of poverty in this country.

[stmatthew]

That’s the talking point. The reality is that lobbyists from the banking industry pushed for deregulation that allows them to sell high risk mortgages to investment firms to then sell on the international market. It’s very complicated but essentially they were making money on giving high risk loans. It’s been revealed recently that a particular lender set a standard to approve no less than so many loans, regardless of the applicant’s likelihood to be able to pay on the loan. Prior to this deregulation what they did would have been highly questionable and maybe even illegal. And now my property values are suffering because of this corruption and the government’s lack of initiative to insure equitable lending practices. Government should work to put swindlers out of businesses. It’s in the best interests of the people that government serves.



True. Every consumer should look into it deeply. But we’re talking about some folks who have gone to school and been licensed in the lending industry…no one will know all the details like they do. Nor should they be expected to. When a lender shows presents a lending scheme because it’s technically legal (now) all they have to do is put in some fancy salesmanship and young family’s who think their dreams are about to materialize can be taken advantage of. There should be strong laws against it. They need to re-regulate the industry because this shouldn’t have happened to begin with.

Honestly, I believe it was Bush that pushed for the deregulation so that "everyone could realize the American Dream of owning their own home." There may have been lobbyist, too. I am not studied in all this, and just have a vague knowledge of it.

BUT, I didn't need schooling to know that a adjustable loan has the potential of going up. In the end, the true fault (unless specific predatory lending practices are found) has to be laid upon the consumer. Its not the car salemans job to police my spending habits, and if I buy a car with an adjustable loan, and then later can't afford it, it is my fault for my spending habits.


I also have to wonder about those that are crying wolf, and still have cable tv, internet, and are not already on a very ridged budget. Also, most leaning companies will bend over backwards if you will just talk with them. My point is, the consumer has to take the majority of the responsibility on their spending. After all, they did not have to sign on the dotted line, and could have walked away at any time.

[DividedThigh]

Honestly, I believe it was Bush that pushed for the deregulation so that "everyone could realize the American Dream of owning their own home." There may have been lobbyist, too. I am not studied in all this, and just have a vague knowledge of it.

BUT, I didn't need schooling to know that a adjustable loan has the potential of going up. In the end, the true fault (unless specific predatory lending practices are found) has to be laid upon the consumer. Its not the car salemans job to police my spending habits, and if I buy a car with an adjustable loan, and then later can't afford it, it is my fault for my spending habits.


I also have to wonder about those that are crying wolf, and still have cable tv, internet, and are not already on a very ridged budget. Also, most leaning companies will bend over backwards if you will just talk with them. My point is, the consumer has to take the majority of the responsibility on their spending. After all, they did not have to sign on the dotted line, and could have walked away at any time.

st matt, the process for these policies to change and the mortgage industry to be less regulated, started in the mid 90s, and continued under gwb, dt

[Rico]

Don’t be ignorant. I’ve told nearly everyone I’m posting with about this new handle. Ask Baron about it…he was there when I created it. You see Ferd, you, and others were calling me such names and slandering my character I decided to take on a different name so I could express my feelings without being openly slandered. Here’s what happened on another forum. I was on Apostolic Man forum and posted some things about President Bush. I was called a liberal, a commie, and all this garbage. Well a few brothers from the church I used to attend read some of what I wrote. One day after men’s prayer they approached me with political questions and said they read what I wrote about President Bush. They told me how they felt, “a communist”, shouldn’t go to church there. It turned into a shoving match as I tried to get into my car to get away from them. When you guys began slandering me under my real name I realized I better take on another alias just to give myself some anonymity. I don’t know who you are DT…and I wouldn’t want to put you in any kind of danger. So stop making fun of me and slandering me. It’s a darn shame when you can’t disagree with conservative Apostolic brothers on politics without being harassed and risking some degree of danger but that’s the world we live in. Well, when I decided it best to go by a different handle Baron had called me, “young grasshopper”, so I adopted the title in his honor. So please DT….get a life and stop trying to brow beat people you don’t agree with. And if you continue to try to connect my real name with my posts I’ll take it as an effort to expose me to personal slander and/or harm. I’m not playing with you. Please respect my wishes.


DT, he's got a point here Bro. Exposing the identity of posters is generally not a good thing to do.

[DividedThigh]

he did that himself rico, dt

[Esther]

This guy writes a post brow beating those caught in preditory lending schemes that should be illegal or who have lost their jobs to free trade marketeers who care nothing about America's working families....and I'm unChristian for calling him on it. Hardly. The man needs to feel the destitution...then he'll be more compassionate.

For example I know a sweet Apostolic couple who are loosing all they've worked for in this housing crisis. I'd never call them irresponsible and decry efforts to help them...especially when the lending practices were orginally shady on the back end. The problem is few understand how these lending schemes boarder on being illegal...and would have been before deregulation of the banking industry.

It is unchristian to wish much less PRAY bad on anyone!

[Baron1710]

Baron, this all sounds good, but when the jobs in any given area don't pay much more than $7-$8 per hour, and someone has a family to feed in the midst of $3 a gallon milk, eggs that cost $2 a dozen, gasoline that costs $3-$4 a gallon, rising utility and rent costs, etc., then government assistance is more of a "have to" type of thing. It's real easy to just say "find a way out of that situation", but talk is cheap, Bro. Getting a degree to find a better paying job is always an option, but even in those situations government assistance is the only thing that makes it possible (grants, government backed student loans). There are no easy answers to solving the issue of poverty in this country.

I have had those jobs. When I got married in 1993 I was making $5 an hour. I was making $5.25 when my son was born, I didn't go apply for government assistance. It was hard, but you know what I learned from it. I got another job for $8 about a year later. I'm not making a fortune now, but I didn't take from others on my way to the place I am at. You got to get off your backside and do something.

[Grasshopper]

Like it or not there will be changes to the current health care system.

Here’s McCain’s plan:

Take away the tax credits businesses receive for providing insurance and give a $2,500 tax credit to all employees. Without the tax credit businesses will not have any incentive to continue to carry employees so businesses will cut their contributions to their employee’s insurance. Employees will then have a choice…pay for their current insurance at FULL price without employee contribution or take their $2,500 tax credit to the market to buy their own individual plan. This presents several problems. In families where only one person works this credit will come nowhere close to paying for the plan needed to cover their family. People who are high risk (elderly and those with pre-existing conditions) will have to pay rates far higher than the $2,500 credit will cover. The government WILL NOT negotiate lower premiums for anyone but those on SSI or Medicare. Estimates are that the rate of the uninsured may increase by 20% in 4 years under his plan causing costs to skyrocket for those who think they can pay for individual plans. McCain’s plan will also deregulate the health insurance industry so that they can lend across state lines without having to meet mandatory premium standards in respective states. This is essentially the same as what happened with the credit card industry. Each insurance agency will only be bound by the state standards of the state in which they reside corporately. For example….Arizona is removing minimum premium and cost standards for health care…e.i…insurance companies could conceivably flock to Arizona and charge premiums and rates as they set corporately in spite of state standards like the mandated premium cap in states like New York. In other words…they’re free to charge you more.

Obama’s Plan:

Require that everyone carry health insurance. If you are a business and provide contributions for insurance you may continue to do so. Employees on your program may continue to remain. Employers unable to provide insurance due to cost will pay into the national system with a contribution and employees will have the option of buying their own plan on the open market or going with the public plan. The public plan is through private insurers. Essentially the public plan will extend the same benefits held by members of congress to policy holders. Their premiums will be negotiated at lower group rates allowing insurance agencies to essentially treat those in the public plan like government employees. Those who do not carry insurance policies will face a tax penalty to make sure they pay their contribution into the health care system to keep costs stable. The tax penalty will not hit those below poverty level.

Your vote will decide what your family faces in regards to health care. Vote wisely.

[DividedThigh]

I have had those jobs. When I got married in 1993 I was making $5 an hour. I was making $5.25 when my son was born, I didn't go apply for government assistance. It was hard, but you know what I learned from it. I got another job for $8 about a year later. I'm not making a fortune now, but I didn't take from others on my way to the place I am at. You got to get off your backside and do something.

my first job after getting married, 3.15 per hour, carter years , rampant inflation, boy did i learn to squeeze a penny, good point baron, dt

[Rico]

Honestly, I believe it was Bush that pushed for the deregulation so that "everyone could realize the American Dream of owning their own home." There may have been lobbyist, too. I am not studied in all this, and just have a vague knowledge of it.

BUT, I didn't need schooling to know that a adjustable loan has the potential of going up. In the end, the true fault (unless specific predatory lending practices are found) has to be laid upon the consumer. Its not the car salemans job to police my spending habits, and if I buy a car with an adjustable loan, and then later can't afford it, it is my fault for my spending habits.


I also have to wonder about those that are crying wolf, and still have cable tv, internet, and are not already on a very ridged budget. Also, most leaning companies will bend over backwards if you will just talk with them. My point is, the consumer has to take the majority of the responsibility on their spending. After all, they did not have to sign on the dotted line, and could have walked away at any time.

The problem is that these adjustable rate mortgages were presented to people in such a way that they could simply refinance before the rates jumped. Well, when it came time to refinance, a credit crunch had hit the industry, loans became very difficult to get approval for, and people started losing their homes. It very quickly turned into a vicious cycle that caused property values to drop, which created even bigger issues with people owing more on their houses than they were now worth, which made it impossible to refinance.

[DividedThigh]

good luck with that govt plan, they make a mess of everything they do, dt

[The Mrs]

Baron, this all sounds good, but when the jobs in any given area don't pay much more than $7-$8 per hour, and someone has a family to feed in the midst of $3 a gallon milk, eggs that cost $2 a dozen, gasoline that costs $3-$4 a gallon, rising utility and rent costs, etc., then government assistance is more of a "have to" type of thing. It's real easy to just say "find a way out of that situation", but talk is cheap, Bro. Getting a degree to find a better paying job is always an option, but even in those situations government assistance is the only thing that makes it possible (grants, government backed student loans). There are no easy answers to solving the issue of poverty in this country.

This sentence caught my eye...and it struck me as funny that there are so many migrant workers coming here to work because they can't survive in their own countries.

Who's living in poverty, and why? :dunno

[DividedThigh]

rich is different to all people, just like poverty means something to all people, it has to have something to do with expectation and contentment, but i am not sure what, lol,dt

[Grasshopper]

Bingo Rico, most likely if you own your own home...because of the industry's unscrupolous lending practices you most likely owe more on your home than what it's worth. The government should set standards to prevent this from happening...standards like the banking industry used to have.

Rico, have you studied how they sold those high risk mortgages on the international markets? It's a shame indeed and foreign investers are mad as Hades.

[Baron1710]

Bingo Rico, most likely if you own your own home...because of the industry's unscrupolous lending practices you most likely owe more on your home than what it's worth. The government should set standards to prevent this from happening...standards like the banking industry used to have.

Rico, have you studied how they sold those high risk mortgages on the international markets? It's a shame indeed and foreign investers are mad as Hades.

Or as this thread started with, you could take responsibility for your own actions and quit crying because you made a stupid economic blunder.

[rgcraig]

This sentence caught my eye...and it struck me as funny that there are so many migrant workers coming here to work because they can't survive in their own countries.

Who's living in poverty, and why? :dunno

You are exactly right!

Everyone wants a cush job and not many are interested in manual labor.

[DividedThigh]

Or as this thread started with, you could take responsibility for your own actions and quit crying because you made a stupid economic blunder.

lol:toofunny

[Rico]

I have had those jobs. When I got married in 1993 I was making $5 an hour. I was making $5.25 when my son was born, I didn't go apply for government assistance. It was hard, but you know what I learned from it. I got another job for $8 about a year later. I'm not making a fortune now, but I didn't take from others on my way to the place I am at. You got to get off your backside and do something.

I'm not on food stamps now, but I was not that long ago. I also lived in subsidized housing. My family is a family of six. There was absolutely no way I could have fed everyone, kept a roof over their heads, or kept the utilities on without some help from the government. At $7 or $8 per hour the math does not add up, Bro., plain and simple. Bare minimum costs renting a two bedroom house with a basement my son uses for his bedroom, including food, utilities, car expense, is $1600-$1800 a month. And I am talking about barely making ends meet.

[stmatthew]

The problem is that these adjustable rate mortgages were presented to people in such a way that they could simply refinance before the rates jumped. Well, when it came time to refinance, a credit crunch had hit the industry, loans became very difficult to get approval for, and people started losing their homes. It very quickly turned into a vicious cycle that caused property values to drop, which created even bigger issues with people owing more on their houses than they were now worth, which made it impossible to refinance.

Were they guaranteed a future loan, or did they simply presume upon the future. Again, it all goes back to personal responsibility. No one held a gun to their head and made them sign. They made the final choice in the matter. I am not saying that they do not deserve any help getting out of their fix, and I am not saying there were not some cases of predatory lending taking place. But if I pay more money for something than it is worth, who ripped me off.

The whole point of the thread is that people need to learn to take personal responsibility for their actions, and do whatever it takes to deal with their choices.

[ManOfWord]

I have had those jobs. When I got married in 1993 I was making $5 an hour. I was making $5.25 when my son was born, I didn't go apply for government assistance. It was hard, but you know what I learned from it. I got another job for $8 about a year later. I'm not making a fortune now, but I didn't take from others on my way to the place I am at. You got to get off your backside and do something.

That is exactly my point! You take personal responsibility and DO something about it. If you need to work two jobs for a while, do it. Cut your living expenses and be frugal and pretty soon you will be in a different situation. I remember raising 3 kids, renting a house, working a full time job and pastoring a church on $16K/yr. I well understand just getting by and not having very good transportation etc. I didn't have insurance when 2 of my sons were born and one of them needed surgery at 3 months old. I faithfully paid what I could EVERY month until the Catholic hospital wrote them off based upon our income.


PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY

Are these "dirty" words?

Grasshopper, when you get a few more years of experience of both lean and fat times and have worked your tail off to take care of your family, then maybe, just maybe you'll have some authority. But as of right now, it doesn't seem like you have much of that. I have PLENTY of experience in lean times. You just cut back and don't expect someone else to foot the bill. I fully believe that the scriptures are true when they state that as a persons sows, they will reap. I have sowed and I have reaped. No one gave me anything and I don't want the government to bail me out of my bad decisions whether they be personal or business. I also teach my children the same thing. Personal responsibility is a biblical concept and one that cannot be skirted around.

God gave us all the ability to work. Severely handicapped people have made it to top of Mt. Everest. Look at the guy with 2 prostheses working to compete in the Olympics. So please don't have the audacity to tell me that there are no opportunities here in America. Please don't use the "can't sir" words in my hearing. Opportunities ABOUND to those who are industrious, lean on God and who don't have an "entitlement" mentality. :D

[Baron1710]

I'm not on food stamps now, but I was not that long ago. I also lived in subsidized housing. My family is a family of six. There was absolutely no way I could have fed everyone, kept a roof over their heads, or kept the utilities on without some help from the government. At $7 or $8 per hour the math does not add up, Bro., plain and simple. Bare minimum costs renting a two bedroom house with a basement my son uses for his bedroom, including food, utilities, car expense, is $1600-$1800 a month. And I am talking about barely making ends meet.

I have no doubt some people have a rough time. But that doesn't mean the government should bail you out. I remember my wife crying not too many months ago because the only thing we had to send the kids for lunch was a stale hamburger bun with peanut butter on it. That sucks. But it still doesn't mean the government should take from someone else to give to me.

[ManOfWord]

You are exactly right!

Everyone wants a cush job and not many are interested in manual labor.

Exactly!! I have just been spending many hours on a backhoe because we can't afford to pay someone else to do the work that needs done at our house. I don't have heavy equipment training, but if someone else can do it so can I. It is called industriousness. The bible states, "Consider the ant...." That is personal responsibility. If I lost my legs tomorrow, I could still learn to drive. I could still preach, visit etc. Maybe not ride a motorcycle, but I'm sure that I could make it......primarily because I'm sure I can with God's help. :D

[ManOfWord]

I have no doubt some people have a rough time. But that doesn't mean the government should bail you out. I remember my wife crying not too many months ago because the only thing we had to send the kids for lunch was a stale hamburger bun with peanut butter on it. That sucks. But it still doesn't mean the government should take from someone else to give to me.

It's called choices. I choose what I am going to learn, where I live, what I'm going to drive, how many children I have, who I marry, where I go to church, how hard I am willing to work to find a job or two if the need be. I choose whether I am going to save for retirement or squander my income and expect the government to take care of me. It is about choices and taking responsibility for them.

Speaking of choices, I have to get back on the backhoe and finish the job....the clock is running! :D

[rgcraig]

It's called choices. I choose what I am going to learn, where I live, what I'm going to drive, how many children I have, who I marry, where I go to church, how hard I am willing to work to find a job or two if the need be. I choose whether I am going to save for retirement or squander my income and expect the government to take care of me. It is about choices and taking responsibility for them.

Speaking of choices, I have to get back on the backhoe and finish the job....the clock is running! :D

That's right - your bologna sandwich lunch break is OVER!!!!

[Ron]

Exactly!! I have just been spending many hours on a backhoe because we can't afford to pay someone else to do the work that needs done at our house. I don't have heavy equipment training, but if someone else can do it so can I. It is called industriousness. The bible states, "Consider the ant...." That is personal responsibility. If I lost my legs tomorrow, I could still learn to drive. I could still preach, visit etc. Maybe not ride a motorcycle, but I'm sure that I could make it......primarily because I'm sure I can with God's help. :D

Mow, I have no qualms with what you are saying. On the basis of your statement you are 100% right.

On the other hand, could it be that people are not taught those principles?
Are there not some who just have not been taught basic initiative, drive, determination?

What about those who grew up in an atmosphere where they were not taught
those things?

I speak of myself, my dad died when I was 4 so I basically do not know him aside from pics.
My mom struggled raising three kids & turned to alcoholism. So, basically I grew up with no father figure, no direction, and a lot of baggage.

I have no college degree, but I have had people see something I did not even see, & they gave me breaks, & training, & lots of encouragement where I am actually in Management with out a degree.

Could it be that some just need a break?
Maybe some life skills training?

Just asking.

[Grasshopper]

Or as this thread started with, you could take responsibility for your own actions and quit crying because you made a stupid economic blunder.

A blunder that would have been illegal lending practices if not for corporate lobbyists. ;)

[Cindy]

Raised 6 kids, there were times we ate just beans and potatoes, one year almost only sweet potatoes and pecans. That was when we were renting. When we got this house with 4 acres of land, we started planting a garden, husband got a good job but it was 100 miles away. He stayed at his mom's and came home on weekends. Finally health insurance and other benefits. You know what we did before that when our kids got sick? We prayed for them and most of the time God healed them. When all but our youngest was grown, I got a job too, after news of a pending layoff by the company my husband worked for. That did not happen thank the Lord.
One thing I can say, most Americans have a lot of "stuff". One of my sons wanted a pair of shoes that cost $100.00, I told him he was out of his mind. Now he wears those expensive shoes that his wife finds on sale. lol
My kids were never taught that the government owed them anything. They were taught to work hard, and they do.

People, the government is not our daddy and mommy.

[tstew]

In my opinion, we are talking about two radically different groups of people and the proper distinction isn't being made. It seems that most of us have a problem with those who abuse the system in a habitual, generational way. Those who have no intention of ever contributing in any way nor any desire to ever be independent of the system.
I think that it is very important that we make that distinction in our conversation.

[stmatthew]

A blunder that would have been illegal lending practices if not for corporate lobbyists. ;)

So is this where all the venom is coming from.


It could also be said that IF not for the de-regulation, many would never have had a home in the 1st place. And not all bought with a high risk adjustable mortgage. Many did their due diligence and got a fixed loan, or didn't buy at all. It still all comes back to choices. Adam tried to pass it off onto Eve, but God didn't buy it either.

[Grasshopper]

My dad walked out when I was two years old leaving me and my mother alone. My grandparents wouldn't take us in. They were too "righteous" for that. So my mom got on assistance. My mother got on welfare temporarily so she could be home and raise me. When I got into Middle School she got a job. The job wasn't enough to pay the bills and we were sinking into massive debt...and all we had was a cheap apartment. My mom took on two jobs and wasn't ever home. We never went to church during this period because she had to work. I soon got mixed up in drugs and the street scene. My mom chose to get back on welfare so she could parent me and help me get my life together.

I'd like to thank you fine tax payers...no telling where I'd be if my mother would have had nowhere to turn.

[Grasshopper]

So is this where all the venom is coming from.


It could also be said that IF not for the de-regulation, many would never have had a home in the 1st place. And not all bought with a high risk adjustable mortgage. Many did their due diligence and got a fixed loan, or didn't buy at all. It still all comes back to choices. Adam tried to pass it off onto Eve, but God didn't buy it either.

BINGO! Those people should have simply lived within their means and shouldn't have had a home to loose. But deregulation and the allowance of preditory lending and international high risk investment schemes opened them up to be exploited.

[Ron]

My dad walked out when I was two years old leaving me and my mother alone. My grandparents wouldn't take my mother and us in. They were too righteous for that. So my mom got on assistance. My mother got on welfare temporarily so she could be home and raise me. When I got into Middle School she got a job. The job wasn't enough to pay the bills and we were sinking into massive debt...and all we had was a cheap apartment. My mom took on two jobs and wasn't ever home. We never went to church during this period because she had to work. I soon got mixed up in drugs and the street scene. My mom chose to get back on welfare so she could parent me and help me get my life together.

I'd like to thank you fine tax payers...no telling where I'd be if my mother would have had nowhere to turn.

The main thing is you did get it together!
A lot don't!

Kudos to you and your mom!

[Grasshopper]

In my opinion, we are talking about two radically different groups of people and the proper distinction isn't being made. It seems that most of us have a problem with those who abuse the system in a habitual, generational way. Those who have no intention of ever contributing in any way nor any desire to ever be independent of the system.
I think that it is very important that we make that distinction in our conversation.

Thank you. So true.

[Grasshopper]

The main thing is you did get it together!
A lot don't!

Kudos to you and your mom!

Amen. I'd still be on drugs and God knows where had she not had somewhere to turn.

Those people who talk nothing but money, money, money, work, work, work,..even if you have to abandon your family to make it...are only focused on their money and are neglecting the human toll. It was a nightmare when mom worked two jobs. I wouldn't even go to school half the time. I dropped out when 16 and when she got back on welfare she re-enrolled me. She was home when I got home and she rode me to get my homework done. She was there for me...oh...and while on welfare...she had time to start taking me to church and I'm saved today.

I remember being upset that we were on welfare and my mother said that we were "gleaners" and if dedicated myself I could make something of my life. Thank God I did.

[stmatthew]

BINGO! Those people should have simply lived within their means and shouldn't have had a home to loose. But deregulation and the allowance of preditory lending and international high risk investment schemes opened them up to be exploited.


And this is the disagreement.

Let me be plain. If someone is too stupid to do their homework before making a major purchase like a home, they have no one to blame but themselves for getting into a loan by presuming upon the future. I am not without compassion for someone losing their home, but the victim mentality IS an issue with me.

*DID they work a second job to attempt to save the home?
*DID they continue to pay for things such as Cell phones, Cable tv, and internet instead of taking the money for these NON-ESSENTIALS and applying it to the loan?
*DID they continue to smoke, drink, or go out to eat, instead of taking care of their responsibilities?
* DID they work to improve their credit during the time they had the home by paying their payments ON TIME every month?
*And DID they seek out other means to get the mortgage changed to a fixed rate, or at least contact their current mortgage company and ask for options?

[Cindy]

My dad walked out when I was two years old leaving me and my mother alone. My grandparents wouldn't take us in. They were too "righteous" for that. So my mom got on assistance. My mother got on welfare temporarily so she could be home and raise me. When I got into Middle School she got a job. The job wasn't enough to pay the bills and we were sinking into massive debt...and all we had was a cheap apartment. My mom took on two jobs and wasn't ever home. We never went to church during this period because she had to work. I soon got mixed up in drugs and the street scene. My mom chose to get back on welfare so she could parent me and help me get my life together.

I'd like to thank you fine tax payers...no telling where I'd be if my mother would have had nowhere to turn.

What a great Mom Grasshopper.

[rgcraig]

Amen. I'd still be on drugs and God knows where had she not had somewhere to turn.

Those people who talk nothing but money, money, money, work, work, work,..even if you have to abandon your family to make it...are only focused on their money and are neglecting the human toll. It was a nightmare when mom worked two jobs. I wouldn't even go to school half the time. I dropped out when 16 and when she got back on welfare she re-enrolled me. She was home when I got home and she rode me to get my homework done. She was there for me...oh...and while on welfare...she had time to start taking me to church and I'm saved today.

I remember being upset that we were on welfare and my mother said that we were "gleaners" and if dedicated myself I could make something of my life. Thank God I did.The difference is in the attitude. With your mom's attitude of being a "gleaner" just like Ruth did in the Bible, she used it to make a bad situation better.

BUT, she didn't make it a lifestyle and teach you to rely on the system. She encouraged you to do better and because of her attitude - being reliant on the system stopped with her.

(as tstew mentioned above)

[stmatthew]

Amen. I'd still be on drugs and God knows where had she not had somewhere to turn.

Those people who talk nothing but money, money, money, work, work, work,..even if you have to abandon your family to make it...are only focused on their money and are neglecting the human toll. It was a nightmare when mom worked two jobs. I wouldn't even go to school half the time. I dropped out when 16 and when she got back on welfare she re-enrolled me. She was home when I got home and she rode me to get my homework done. She was there for me...oh...and while on welfare...she had time to start taking me to church and I'm saved today.

I remember being upset that we were on welfare and my mother said that we were "gleaners" and if dedicated myself I could make something of my life. Thank God I did.

I don't believe I have saw anyone here that stated we should totally do away with the welfare system. Jesus was plain when he said, "The poor you have with you always". But that does not negate the responsibility of individuals to go and do everything they can to be productive citizens.

[Rico]

Were they guaranteed a future loan, or did they simply presume upon the future. Again, it all goes back to personal responsibility. No one held a gun to their head and made them sign. They made the final choice in the matter. I am not saying that they do not deserve any help getting out of their fix, and I am not saying there were not some cases of predatory lending taking place. But if I pay more money for something than it is worth, who ripped me off.

The whole point of the thread is that people need to learn to take personal responsibility for their actions, and do whatever it takes to deal with their choices.

Matt, let's say that you are a married man in your late 20s early 30s with 2 children. You've got a decent job, nice car, good credit rating. You want to buy a house but can't seem to be able to save up the 20% it takes for the down payment for whatever reason. You start seeing signs on house that say "Buy me with no money down." You look into it and discover that there are companies willing to loan 100% of a home's value using two loans. 80% goes thru an adjustable rate mortgage, and the remaining 20% is thru a home equity loan. The payment on both of these loans is equal to or just a little bit more than you have been paying for rent. The person selling you on this loan explains that the big loan has an adjustable rate that will go up in, say, 5 years. The smaller loan is an interest only loan for the first 10 years then it amoritizes for the remaining 10 years. You are a little nervous, partly because it all sounds too good to be true and you are a little worried about making that higher payment when the rate goes up on the big loan. You express your concern to the person selling you this loan. He explains that these types of loans are really not designed for someone to keep, but more to make it possible for people to become homeowners. He explains that, by the time you reach the point where the payment would go up that you'd have enough of a paying history to qualify for a standard fixed rate mortgage. He also explains that the value of your property will have gone up by then, which will also make it possible to refinance the whole package.

You do some research on property values in the area and find out that they have, in fact, been going up steadily over the last 20-30 years. You check into the type of loan you are thinking about getting and find out that many people have already done exactly what this loan officer has said you could do. So, wanting to be a good father that provides a good home for your family, you go for it. Next thing you know you are a proud new homeowner and life is better than it's ever been. You're thanking God for making it possible for you buy your first house. No more renting for you.

Five years go by and it's time for your rate to go up. In the last year or so there has been some trouble in the stock market. Globally, money gets tight. Oil prices are skyrocketing. Banks are having trouble borrowing money. Credit has gotten tougher to get. You look into refinancing this ARM and HELOC into one fixed rate mortgage. You find out that, because of what has been going on in the stock market banks have made it extremely difficult for people to get fixed rate mortgages. Because of what's been going on, hundreds of thousands of home owners all across America have not been able to refinance these loans, lost their homes, and the real estate market is suffering badly because of it. Then you find out that your home's value has dropped because of everything that's been going on. You find out that you're stuck with a loan payment that is about to double or even triple, because no one wants to loan you the money to refinance.

It's not that you don't pay your bills. It's not that you're a bad person. It's that financial conditions throughout the country have deteriorated to the point that, what was supposed to be a God-send for people like you, has turned out to be a huge nightmare. When it's all said and done, you've lost the home you thought you were going to live in for the rest of your life, your credit rating is shot because you couldn't afford the triple payments, your family is embarassed about having to go back to renting, and you are left asking yourself why all this had to happen.

Why did it happen? Because the banking industry never should have started offering these types of loans in the first place. They thought the good times of the 90s were going to last forever. They figured they could make a bunch of money off what were essentially interest only loans. They didn't plan on the stock market going south. They didn't plan on having issues with brokerage houses going bankrupt. They rolled the dice with the housing market and lost, plain and simple.

I hear what you guys are saying about people being responsible for the actions. If it's true for them then it's true for the banks and mortgage brokers that dreamed up all these loans that were going to make it possible for so many to live the American dream of home ownership. They did not present these loans to consumers as risky. For that they are to blame.

[faithfulinlittle777]

i have 3 hrs on my doctorate...i work in a fast food restaurant...i mispell a lot...guess bro ga was right when he said social superiority is a weapon of the devil...no im not capitalizing...

[Rico]

I have no doubt some people have a rough time. But that doesn't mean the government should bail you out. I remember my wife crying not too many months ago because the only thing we had to send the kids for lunch was a stale hamburger bun with peanut butter on it. That sucks. But it still doesn't mean the government should take from someone else to give to me.

The concept of government helping the poor is found in the Bible, both in the OT and the NT. What do you think the tithes were used for in the OT?

[faithfulinlittle777]

oh yeah n my little bro was on the governors staff n now kennedys n yes there are some of us left who work hard go to church and forgive those who try to look down on us

[Ron]

Matt, let's say that you are a married man in your late 20s early 30s with 2 children. You've got a decent job, nice car, good credit rating. You want to buy a house but can't seem to be able to save up the 20% it takes for the down payment for whatever reason. You start seeing signs on house that say "Buy me with no money down." You look into it and discover that there are companies willing to loan 100% of a home's value using two loans. 80% goes thru an adjustable rate mortgage, and the remaining 20% is thru a home equity loan. The payment on both of these loans is equal to or just a little bit more than you have been paying for rent. The person selling you on this loan explains that the big loan has an adjustable rate that will go up in, say, 5 years. The smaller loan is an interest only loan for the first 10 years then it amoritizes for the remaining 10 years. You are a little nervous, partly because it all sounds too good to be true and you are a little worried about making that higher payment when the rate goes up on the big loan. You express your concern to the person selling you this loan. He explains that these types of loans are really not designed for someone to keep, but more to make it possible for people to become homeowners. He explains that, by the time you reach the point where the payment would go up that you'd have enough of a paying history to qualify for a standard fixed rate mortgage. He also explains that the value of your property will have gone up by then, which will also make it possible to refinance the whole package.

You do some research on property values in the area and find out that they have, in fact, been going up steadily over the last 20-30 years. You check into the type of loan you are thinking about getting and find out that many people have already done exactly what this loan officer has said you could do. So, wanting to be a good father that provides a good home for your family, you go for it. Next thing you know you are a proud new homeowner and life is better than it's ever been. You're thanking God for making it possible for you buy your first house. No more renting for you.

Five years go by and it's time for your rate to go up. In the last year or so there has been some trouble in the stock market. Globally, money gets tight. Oil prices are skyrocketing. Banks are having trouble borrowing money. Credit has gotten tougher to get. You look into refinancing this ARM and HELOC into one fixed rate mortgage. You find out that, because of what has been going on in the stock market banks have made it extremely difficult for people to get fixed rate mortgages. Because of what's been going on, hundreds of thousands of home owners all across America have not been able to refinance these loans, lost their homes, and the real estate market is suffering badly because of it. Then you find out that your home's value has dropped because of everything that's been going on. You find out that you're stuck with a loan payment that is about to double or even triple, because no one wants to loan you the money to refinance.

It's not that you don't pay your bills. It's not that you're a bad person. It's that financial conditions throughout the country have deteriorated to the point that, what was supposed to be a God-send for people like you, has turned out to be a huge nightmare. When it's all said and done, you've lost the home you thought you were going to live in for the rest of your life, your credit rating is shot because you couldn't afford the triple payments, your family is embarassed about having to go back to renting, and you are left asking yourself why all this had to happen.

Why did it happen? Because the banking industry never should have started offering these types of loans in the first place. They thought the good times of the 90s were going to last forever. They figured they could make a bunch of money off what were essentially interest only loans. They didn't plan on the stock market going south. They didn't plan on having issues with brokerage houses going bankrupt. They rolled the dice with the housing market and lost, plain and simple.

I hear what you guys are saying about people being responsible for the actions. If it's true for them then it's true for the banks and mortgage brokers that dreamed up all these loans that were going to make it possible for so many to live the American dream of home ownership. They did not present these loans to consumers as risky. For that they are to blame.

Another side to the story!

Well put Rico!

BTW, weren't you going to do some writing, possibly Bible Studies?
You have the flair for writing.

[faithfulinlittle777]

the government isnt supposed to help you, your supposed to help yourself....n talking to God about this is not such a bad idea

[Rico]

Exactly!! I have just been spending many hours on a backhoe because we can't afford to pay someone else to do the work that needs done at our house. I don't have heavy equipment training, but if someone else can do it so can I. It is called industriousness. The bible states, "Consider the ant...." That is personal responsibility. If I lost my legs tomorrow, I could still learn to drive. I could still preach, visit etc. Maybe not ride a motorcycle, but I'm sure that I could make it......primarily because I'm sure I can with God's help. :D

I rented a small backhoe once. Had some issues with a septic line and had to dig it up. I wasn't thinking while I was digging and ended up almost tipping the backhoe over! :toofunny I can laugh about it now, but I thought for sure I was gonna meet my maker when the back tire went right into the ditch I had been digging! Thank God there was a huge tree in the yard and that I had enough chains to hook the bucket too so I could pull the backhoe out. :D

[Grasshopper]

And this is the disagreement.

Let me be plain. If someone is too stupid to do their homework before making a major purchase like a home, they have no one to blame but themselves for getting into a loan by presuming upon the future. I am not without compassion for someone losing their home, but the victim mentality IS an issue with me.

Did you know there’s such a disdain for the victim mentality that real victims are derided in today’s culture? I know folks who took real estate in school and have a hard time understanding the ins and outs of some of these contracts. I don’t expect everyone to understand the degree of risk they are opening themselves up to. No one used to…that’s why these lending/investment schemes used to be heavily regulated.

*DID they work a second job to attempt to save the home?

A second job for another 15-30 years while rates adjust even worse as time goes by isn’t feasible. People are more than work horses earning a living in this social Darwinist society. These are fathers and mothers. Most are already both working…one of them taking on a second job will eliminate a father or a mother from the family equation to earn the almighty dollar. If they didn’t qualify for a fixed rate…the system should have never set them up with a variable rate to begin with. The only reason these companies did this is because they deregulated the industry and they were allowed to sell these mortgages to overseas investors. I imagine you’d have no issue with everyone working on a global corporate plantation for their living? That’s where we’re headed bro. It will be a privatized communism where the corporation owns all…including the government.

*DID they continue to pay for things such as Cell phones, Cable tv, and internet instead of taking the money for these NON-ESSENTIALS and applying it to the loan?

I can see ditching the cell phones and cable….but the savings wouldn’t be significant enough to help most of them.

*DID they continue to smoke, drink, or go out to eat, instead of taking care of their responsibilities?

While I agree they should ditch these things again the savings wouldn’t be significant enough to make a difference.

* DID they work to improve their credit during the time they had the home by paying their payments ON TIME every month?

We agree that this is reasonable.

*And DID they seek out other means to get the mortgage changed to a fixed rate, or at least contact their current mortgage company and ask for options?

For most the credit crunch crushed their being able to qualify. The lender made it sound like refinancing would be a synch…no one told them the bottom could fall out of the market and they’d be stuck.

[stmatthew]

Matt, let's say that you are a married man in your late 20s early 30s with 2 children. You've got a decent job, nice car, good credit rating. You want to buy a house but can't seem to be able to save up the 20% it takes for the down payment for whatever reason. You start seeing signs on house that say "Buy me with no money down." You look into it and discover that there are companies willing to loan 100% of a home's value using two loans. 80% goes thru an adjustable rate mortgage, and the remaining 20% is thru a home equity loan. The payment on both of these loans is equal to or just a little bit more than you have been paying for rent. The person selling you on this loan explains that the big loan has an adjustable rate that will go up in, say, 5 years. The smaller loan is an interest only loan for the first 10 years then it amoritizes for the remaining 10 years. You are a little nervous, partly because it all sounds too good to be true and you are a little worried about making that higher payment when the rate goes up on the big loan. You express your concern to the person selling you this loan. He explains that these types of loans are really not designed for someone to keep, but more to make it possible for people to become homeowners. He explains that, by the time you reach the point where the payment would go up that you'd have enough of a paying history to qualify for a standard fixed rate mortgage. He also explains that the value of your property will have gone up by then, which will also make it possible to refinance the whole package.

You do some research on property values in the area and find out that they have, in fact, been going up steadily over the last 20-30 years. You check into the type of loan you are thinking about getting and find out that many people have already done exactly what this loan officer has said you could do. So, wanting to be a good father that provides a good home for your family, you go for it. Next thing you know you are a proud new homeowner and life is better than it's ever been. You're thanking God for making it possible for you buy your first house. No more renting for you.

Five years go by and it's time for your rate to go up. In the last year or so there has been some trouble in the stock market. Globally, money gets tight. Oil prices are skyrocketing. Banks are having trouble borrowing money. Credit has gotten tougher to get. You look into refinancing this ARM and HELOC into one fixed rate mortgage. You find out that, because of what has been going on in the stock market banks have made it extremely difficult for people to get fixed rate mortgages. Because of what's been going on, hundreds of thousands of home owners all across America have not been able to refinance these loans, lost their homes, and the real estate market is suffering badly because of it. Then you find out that your home's value has dropped because of everything that's been going on. You find out that you're stuck with a loan payment that is about to double or even triple, because no one wants to loan you the money to refinance.

It's not that you don't pay your bills. It's not that you're a bad person. It's that financial conditions throughout the country have deteriorated to the point that, what was supposed to be a God-send for people like you, has turned out to be a huge nightmare. When it's all said and done, you've lost the home you thought you were going to live in for the rest of your life, your credit rating is shot because you couldn't afford the triple payments, your family is embarassed about having to go back to renting, and you are left asking yourself why all this had to happen.

Why did it happen? Because the banking industry never should have started offering these types of loans in the first place. They thought the good times of the 90s were going to last forever. They figured they could make a bunch of money off what were essentially interest only loans. They didn't plan on the stock market going south. They didn't plan on having issues with brokerage houses going bankrupt. They rolled the dice with the housing market and lost, plain and simple.

I hear what you guys are saying about people being responsible for the actions. If it's true for them then it's true for the banks and mortgage brokers that dreamed up all these loans that were going to make it possible for so many to live the American dream of home ownership. They did not present these loans to consumers as risky. For that they are to blame.

Rico,

Because I would have done enough due diligence to know that ANY Adjustable rate can, and likely WILL, go up over time, I would turn this loan down. IF as you said, I have good credit and a good job, I can get a good home and qualify easily at 100% for a fixed FHA loan.

BUT even if I had taken it, I have had 5 years, knowing that it would go up, to get it changed, and have not taken the responsibility to do so.

See the real issue here is that some of you don't think that people should be held responsible to do their homework before they get into a debt. It all comes down to educating ones self prior to signing on the dotted line.

Again, I understand there were some shady deals done, and those should be looked into closely and action taken. But they are the exception, and not the norm.

[Grasshopper]

What a great Mom Grasshopper.

According to MOW and most conservatives I know she's just another looser who just won't take responsibility. To me...she's a hero. And while most hate welfare...I thank God for the ability we had to glean until I could leave home and stand on my own two feet.

[Grasshopper]

Does anyone notice how "corporation" and "business" and "banks" are always the good guys and average individuals that don't understand the details the industries are just viewed as irresponsibile shmucks that should have known better?

Man...I want to be a corporate CEO or business man...it sure would be great to be above reproach or criticism. I could call anyone who questioned my schemes a selfish socialist and get all the religious people singing my praises.

[DividedThigh]

you are very sad grass, the bitterness must be overwhelming, i will pray for you, dt

[Rico]

Rico,

Because I would have done enough due diligence to know that ANY Adjustable rate can, and likely WILL, go up over time, I would turn this loan down. IF as you said, I have good credit and a good job, I can get a good home and qualify easily at 100% for a fixed FHA loan.

BUT even if I had taken it, I have had 5 years, knowing that it would go up, to get it changed, and have not taken the responsibility to do so.

See the real issue here is that some of you don't think that people should be held responsible to do their homework before they get into a debt. It all comes down to educating ones self prior to signing on the dotted line.

Again, I understand there were some shady deals done, and those should be looked into closely and action taken. But they are the exception, and not the norm.

Again, I agree that people need to take some of the responsibility for this housing crisis we are in. However, you can not place the blame solely on the consumer. These loans were not presented to potential homebuyers as being risky. Have you ever tried reading one of these loan documents? I have, because I worked for a company that provided customer service for a bank's HELOC department, and they are extremely confusing, Matt.

There is a certain amount of trust involved with these types of transactions. It's kind of like when someone buys insurance from me. They put their trust in me as a professional. My job is to decipher the policy language and explain to them what the insurance company will pay for and what it won't pay for. The people who were selling these loans to consumers did not adequately present the risk involved to consumers. They saw these loans as an easy way to make money, pushed them on people without really explaining how they worked, made a bunch of money, and now consumers are left holding the bag.

[Baron1710]

Does anyone notice how "corporation" and "business" and "banks" are always the good guys and average individuals that don't understand the details the industries are just viewed as irresponsibile shmucks that should have known better?

Man...I want to be a corporate CEO or business man...it sure would be great to be above reproach or criticism. I could call anyone who questioned my schemes a selfish socialist and get all the religious people singing my praises.

What's the difference you want the government to clean up your mess and call corp. and conservatives fascists. Who do you think pays the taxes in this country? Those evil corp. pay taxes and they actually pay them twice. Once on the corp. profit and then when they pay the employees they pay taxes too.

[rgcraig]

Does anyone notice how "corporation" and "business" and "banks" are always the good guys and average individuals that don't understand the details the industries are just viewed as irresponsibile shmucks that should have known better?

Man...I want to be a corporate CEO or business man...it sure would be great to be above reproach or criticism. I could call anyone who questioned my schemes a selfish socialist and get all the religious people singing my praises.
Surely, you jest. Our president was just asked to leave because sales numbers weren't were they wanted them to be.

[Grasshopper]

you are very sad grass, the bitterness must be overwhelming, i will pray for you, dt

Don't bother. I already know what you utra-right wing types think of me and others who politically disagree with you. Your prayers arent' welcome here. I know too many peope hurting while people "pray" for them. You're faith and your prayers are a joke if you don't stand for a society that cares for it's own. If you stand to allow business to get breaks for moving jobs we need to Mexico or China. If you don't care that premiums are too high to insure our kids. If you don't care that a young couple got taken in a lending scheme that shouldn't have been legal to begin with.

America is nothing but a huge social Darwinist state where most only care for themselves. Nobody cares for their neighbors anymore. I know a person who has cancer and might face a layoff and loose her insurance. She's not going to be able to get insurance that she can afford due to her "pre-existing" illness. If they lay her off....they essentially sign her death warrant.

[Grasshopper]

Surely, you jest. Our president was just asked to leave because sales numbers weren't were they wanted them to be.

Wow. Who's he going to go work for as their next President of sales?

[stmatthew]

Did you know there’s such a disdain for the victim mentality that real victims are derided in today’s culture? I know folks who took real estate in school and have a hard time understanding the ins and outs of some of these contracts. I don’t expect everyone to understand the degree of risk they are opening themselves up to. No one used to…that’s why these lending/investment schemes used to be heavily regulated.

I have no education at all in the real estate industry, and I know that ANY adjustable rate has the potential of increasing. If I can learn it, anyone can. As the saying goes, "there is no one as blind as the one who will not see". If someone is not willing to search out and educate themselves, then they have not acted in a responsible manner



A second job for another 15-30 years while rates adjust even worse as time goes by isn’t feasible. People are more than work horses earning a living in this social Darwinist society. These are fathers and mothers. Most are already both working…one of them taking on a second job will eliminate a father or a mother from the family equation to earn the almighty dollar. If they didn’t qualify for a fixed rate…the system should have never set them up with a variable rate to begin with. The only reason these companies did this is because they deregulated the industry and they were allowed to sell these mortgages to overseas investors. I imagine you’d have no issue with everyone working on a global corporate plantation for their living? That’s where we’re headed bro. It will be a privatized communism where the corporation owns all…including the government.

Wait, they didn't have a problem presuming that the interest rate would not go up when they got the loan. Why should they not now presume that the interest rate can drop?

IF I go out and get a part time job at $7.00 (MCD's pays this) I can make an additional $140 a week/ $560 month, before taxes of course. Possibly $400 after taxes



I can see ditching the cell phones and cable….but the savings wouldn’t be significant enough to help most of them.

-Cable and internet costs my mom about $150 month.
-A cell phone will cost about $50 a month.

That is approx $200 month



While I agree they should ditch these things again the savings wouldn’t be significant enough to make a difference.

-1 pack of cigarettes is about $3 day/$90 month
-Beer is what $4 a 6 pack per week/ $16 month
-Eating out....I easily spend $50 - $100 wk eating breakfast dayly, and a Sunday meal out

We can even it out at $200 month



We agree that this is reasonable.



For most the credit crunch crushed their being able to qualify. The lender made it sound like refinancing would be a synch…no one told them the bottom could fall out of the market and they’d be stuck.

Just getting rid of the above, and getting the part time job at McD's, I would have an additional $800 a month with which to add to a payment. I have not even begun to cut the budget though, as I know very few that spend frugally.

[Rico]

Surely, you jest. Our president was just asked to leave because sales numbers weren't were they wanted them to be.

He'll probably end up with a multi million dollar severance package. :D

[DividedThigh]

still gonna pray for you grass, dt

[Ron]

Don't bother. I already know what you utra-right wing types think of me and others who politically disagree with you. Your prayers arent' welcome here. I know too many peope hurting while people "pray" for them. You're faith and your prayers are a joke if you don't stand for a society that cares for it's own. If you stand to allow business to get breaks for moving jobs we need to Mexico or China. If you don't care that premiums are too high to insure our kids. If you don't care that a young couple got taken in a lending scheme that shouldn't have been legal to begin with.

America is nothing but a huge social Darwinist state where most only care for themselves. Nobody cares for their neighbors anymore. I know a person who has cancer and might face a layoff and loose her insurance. She's not going to be able to get insurance that she can afford due to her "pre-existing" illness. If they lay her off....they essentially sign her death warrant.

You are right, people do use and abuse thier neighbour.
Society in North America while far from perfect, is a pretty good place to live.
There is greed on every side.
Jesus said it will be so.

Mat 26:11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

This speaks to me that while we have the poor always with us, there will never be true Social Equality until Christ comes back.

Woa unto that Man, Woman, or business who just lives for himself!

[Baron1710]

I have no education at all in the real estate industry, and I know that ANY adjustable rate has the potential of increasing. If I can learn it, anyone can. As the saying goes, "there is no one as blind as the one who will not see". If someone is not willing to search out and educate themselves, then they have not acted in a responsible manner





Wait, they didn't have a problem presuming that the interest rate would not go up when they got the loan. Why should they not now presume that the interest rate can drop?

IF I go out and get a part time job at $7.00 (MCD's pays this) I can make an additional $140 a week/ $560 month, before taxes of course. Possibly $400 after taxes





-Cable and internet costs my mom about $150 month.
-A cell phone will cost about $50 a month.

That is approx $200 month





-1 pack of cigarettes is about $3 day/$90 month
-Beer is what $4 a 6 pack per week/ $16 month-Eating out....I easily spend $50 - $100 wk eating breakfast dayly, and a Sunday meal out

We can even it out at $200 month





Just getting rid of the above, and getting the part time job at McD's, I would have an additional $800 a month with which to add to a payment. I have not even begun to cut the budget though, as I know very few that spend frugally.

Where you getting that cheap beer and tobacco?

[Grasshopper]

And here’s the funny thing…if we had a national health insurance program sure your taxes would rise somewhat…but your current exuberantly expensive premiums would disappear and you’d pay the lower negotiated premium. Combine that with the tax increase and most would actually save nearly $300 a month. But most people are too paranoid to do what’s right for everyone.

My prediction is…we’ll eventually have a market driven national health insurance system. There will be adjustments that are needed but it will be better than the current system we have now. We’ll look back at it as a significant achievement of America society and most Christians would never dream of just allowing people to die because they didn’t have insurance. They will look back at most of the Social Darwinist neo-conservatives and wonder where their hearts were….just as we look back at ministers who advocated other social evils like racism and slavery.

I could be wrong…but that’s my prediction.

[rgcraig]

He'll probably end up with a multi million dollar severance package. :D

He already had that.......

[stmatthew]

Again, I agree that people need to take some of the responsibility for this housing crisis we are in. However, you can not place the blame solely on the consumer. These loans were not presented to potential homebuyers as being risky. Have you ever tried reading one of these loan documents? I have, because I worked for a company that provided customer service for a bank's HELOC department, and they are extremely confusing, Matt.

There is a certain amount of trust involved with these types of transactions. It's kind of like when someone buys insurance from me. They put their trust in me as a professional. My job is to decipher the policy language and explain to them what the insurance company will pay for and what it won't pay for. The people who were selling these loans to consumers did not adequately present the risk involved to consumers. They saw these loans as an easy way to make money, pushed them on people without really explaining how they worked, made a bunch of money, and now consumers are left holding the bag.

I doubt that they did not explain that these loans were able to go up.

I was a detail person in the construction industry as I did finish work. When I go into a house, I can see all the flaws, and could point them out. But when a home buyer goes into that same home, all they see is shiny paint, and shiny fixtures. They do not see the baseboard that runs on the floor, showing the uneven drywall. They do not see the outlet that is crooked in the bedroom. This is what I believe has happened to many in this issue. ALL they saw was a chance to own a house. They did not hear the broker tell them there was risk. ALL they heard was YES.


Again, did some NOT adequately present the risk involved to consumers. I am sure there was. But I believe it an exception, and not the norm.

[stmatthew]

Don't bother. I already know what you utra-right wing types think of me and others who politically disagree with you. Your prayers arent' welcome here. I know too many peope hurting while people "pray" for them. You're faith and your prayers are a joke if you don't stand for a society that cares for it's own. If you stand to allow business to get breaks for moving jobs we need to Mexico or China. If you don't care that premiums are too high to insure our kids. If you don't care that a young couple got taken in a lending scheme that shouldn't have been legal to begin with.

America is nothing but a huge social Darwinist state where most only care for themselves. Nobody cares for their neighbors anymore. I know a person who has cancer and might face a layoff and loose her insurance. She's not going to be able to get insurance that she can afford due to her "pre-existing" illness. If they lay her off....they essentially sign her death warrant.

This here just ain't even Christian, and I am going to report it.

[DividedThigh]

This here just ain't even Christian, and I am going to report it.

so true, bro matt, dt

[Rico]

I doubt that they did not explain that these loans were able to go up.

I was a detail person in the construction industry as I did finish work. When I go into a house, I can see all the flaws, and could point them out. But when a home buyer goes into that same home, all they see is shiny paint, and shiny fixtures. They do not see the baseboard that runs on the floor, showing the uneven drywall. They do not see the outlet that is crooked in the bedroom. This is what I believe has happened to many in this issue. ALL they saw was a chance to own a house. They did not hear the broker tell them there was risk. ALL they heard was YES.


Again, did some NOT adequately present the risk involved to consumers. I am sure there was. But I believe it an exception, and not the norm.

Matt, believe me when I tell you it happened. I spoke with so many people who found themselves in this mortgage crisis mess. I heard over and over again that the details of the loans were not explained fully. People would call crying over the situations they were in, desperately looking for a way out. They didn't even have the option of refinancing through the bank they had the loans thru because it had stopped offering refi's completely. I'm not talking about ignorant uneducated people either. Some of these people had million dollar homes and were professionals.

Did you know that there is no regulatory agency for mortgage brokers? As an insurance agent, I have to take tests, get licensed, agree to abide by ethical standards, maintain my license through continuing education, and I can get into serious trouble for not following these guidelines? I can get into enough trouble that the State can pull my license and I wouldn't be able to sell insurance any more. There's no such regulation with mortgage brokers.

[Rico]

This here just ain't even Christian, and I am going to report it.

What's non-Christian about it. Nothing says we have to accept someone else praying for us. I've told a few people not to bother praying for me because I didn't want what they had.

[Grasshopper]

You are right, people do use and abuse thier neighbour.
Society in North America while far from perfect, is a pretty good place to live.
There is greed on every side.
Jesus said it will be so.

Mat 26:11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

This speaks to me that while we have the poor always with us, there will never be true Social Equality until Christ comes back.

Woa unto that Man, Woman, or business who just lives for himself!
I like Marks’ more complete rendering. Here’s what the Bible says about the poor and godly business practices….

“For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good:” - Mark 14:7

Here are just a few verses about how a nation and a people should regard the poor of their land….

Exodus 22:25
If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.

Exodus 23:3
Neither shalt thou countenance a poor man in his cause.

Exodus 23:11
But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard.

Leviticus 23:22
And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 25:35
And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

Deuteronomy 15:7
If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:

Deuteronomy 15:9
Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him nought; and he cry unto the LORD against thee, and it be sin unto thee.

Deuteronomy 15:11
For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

Deuteronomy 24:14
Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates:

Deuteronomy 24:15
At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it; for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the LORD, and it be sin unto thee.

Psalm 10:2
The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.

Psalm 10:8
He sitteth in the lurking places of the villages: in the secret places doth he murder the innocent: his eyes are privily set against the poor.

Psalm 10:9
He lieth in wait secretly as a lion in his den: he lieth in wait to catch the poor: he doth catch the poor, when he draweth him into his net.

Psalm 12:5
For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

Psalm 14:6
Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.

Psalm 37:14
The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.

Psalm 41:1
Blessed is he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.

Proverbs 14:21
He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth: but he that hath mercy on the poor, happy is he.

Proverbs 14:31
He that oppresseth the poor reproacheth his Maker: but he that honoureth him hath mercy on the poor.

Proverbs 18:23
The poor useth intreaties; but the rich answereth roughly.

Proverbs 19:17
He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again.

Proverbs 21:13
Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

Proverbs 22:16
He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.

Proverbs 29:14
The king that faithfully judgeth the poor, his throne shall be established for ever.

Proverbs 30:14
There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.

Proverbs 31:9
Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

Isaiah 10:2
To turn aside the needy from judgment, and to take away the right from the poor of my people, that widows may be their prey, and that they may rob the fatherless!

Isaiah 58:7
Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Ezekiel 16:49
Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

Daniel 4:27
Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.

Amos 2:6
Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes;

Amos 4:1
Hear this word, ye kine of Bashan, that are in the mountain of Samaria, which oppress the poor, which crush the needy, which say to their masters, Bring, and let us drink.

Amos 5:12
For I know your manifold transgressions and your mighty sins: they afflict the just, they take a bribe, and they turn aside the poor in the gate from their right.

Amos 8:4
Hear this, O ye that swallow up the needy, even to make the poor of the land to fail,

Galatians 2:10
Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

James 2:6
But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

[Ron]

I like Marks’ more complete rendering. Here’s what the Bible says about the poor and godly business practices….

“For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good:” - Mark 14:7

Here are just a few verses about how a nation and a people should regard the poor of their land….

Exodus 22:25
If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.

Exodus 23:3
Neither shalt thou countenance a poor man in his cause.

Exodus 23:11
But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard.

Leviticus 23:22
And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 25:35
And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

Deuteronomy 15:7
If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:

Deuteronomy 15:9
Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him nought; and he cry unto the LORD against thee, and it be sin unto thee.

Deuteronomy 15:11
For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

Deuteronomy 24:14
Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates:

Deuteronomy 24:15
At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it; for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the LORD, and it be sin unto thee.

Psalm 10:2
The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.

Psalm 10:8
He sitteth in the lurking places of the villages: in the secret places doth he murder the innocent: his eyes are privily set against the poor.

Psalm 10:9
He lieth in wait secretly as a lion in his den: he lieth in wait to catch the poor: he doth catch the poor, when he draweth him into his net.

Psalm 12:5
For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

Psalm 14:6
Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.

Psalm 37:14
The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.

Psalm 41:1
Blessed is he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.

Proverbs 14:21
He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth: but he that hath mercy on the poor, happy is he.

Proverbs 14:31
He that oppresseth the poor reproacheth his Maker: but he that honoureth him hath mercy on the poor.

Proverbs 18:23
The poor useth intreaties; but the rich answereth roughly.

Proverbs 19:17
He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again.

Proverbs 21:13
Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

Proverbs 22:16
He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.

Proverbs 29:14
The king that faithfully judgeth the poor, his throne shall be established for ever.

Proverbs 30:14
There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.

Proverbs 31:9
Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

Isaiah 10:2
To turn aside the needy from judgment, and to take away the right from the poor of my people, that widows may be their prey, and that they may rob the fatherless!

Isaiah 58:7
Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Ezekiel 16:49
Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

Daniel 4:27
Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.

Amos 2:6
Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes;

Amos 4:1
Hear this word, ye kine of Bashan, that are in the mountain of Samaria, which oppress the poor, which crush the needy, which say to their masters, Bring, and let us drink.

Amos 5:12
For I know your manifold transgressions and your mighty sins: they afflict the just, they take a bribe, and they turn aside the poor in the gate from their right.

Amos 8:4
Hear this, O ye that swallow up the needy, even to make the poor of the land to fail,

Galatians 2:10
Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

James 2:6
But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

Again, I agree with you.
However, this is just one point.
We in North America, no, the World are up the proverbial creek & God is going to require some things of us.
Not the least of which the majority are not saved.

[DividedThigh]

my grandpa always said no one gets better till they stop making excuses and start taking responsibility for themselves, just a notion, dt

[Tiberius Pantera]

whew!

You know what i really cant stand? A liberal that suggests conservitives neither care about the poor nor do anything about the poor because they oppose wiled eyed and exteremly stupid policy that will do more harm to the American economy than any help the offer.

Its moronic at best.

Conservitives ALL think that certain things should be done by government to keep people from starving to death and from being drains on society. they do not believe in cradle to grave butt whiping! only liberals go there. and have in this thread.

hoey!

The best way to help struggling Americans is to toss the socialists out and thus improve the American economy.

[Pragmatist]

I think Rico has done an excellent job of presenting the lending crisis.

My husband and I both have college degrees, so we are not illiterate, uneducated people. We researched the different types of loans prior to buying a home. We used a mortgage broker from our church and we "trusted" him to help us with the details. Well, in some ways he outright lied to us, and other things he just didn't disclose. I knew we were getting an ARM, but it was fixed for 5 years. He told us we didn't qualify for a conventional loan because my husband hadn't been at his job for 2 years. BTW our credit rating is over 800. He said refinance in 2 years, and we would be fine. Oh, but he failed to mention that there was a prepayment penalty on the loan. I have searched all the papers we signed and still haven't found mention of it. He also failed to tell us that the HELOC had a variable rate. I thought it was fixed for 5 years like the primary loan. Now, I agree that maybe I should have researched the HELOC better, but his lies and failure to disclose were not my fault. Now we have never missed a payment or paid late, and we haven't hit our 5 years yet, so we still have time to refinance, but I am sympathetic to others in a similar situation.

I think predatory lending practices and LYING are not as uncommon as some here think, although, it probably depends on the region where one lives.

[DividedThigh]

whew!

You know what i really cant stand? A liberal that suggests conservitives neither care about the poor nor do anything about the poor because they oppose wiled eyed and exteremly stupid policy that will do more harm to the American economy than any help the offer.

Its moronic at best.

Conservitives ALL think that certain things should be done by government to keep people from starving to death and from being drains on society. they do not believe in cradle to grave butt whiping! only liberals go there. and have in this thread.

hoey!

The best way to help struggling Americans is to toss the socialists out and thus improve the American economy.

wow, i dont even know you but i allready like you pantera, dt

[Ron]

wow, i dont even know you but i allready like you pantera, dt

I think I know this person & you do too DT!:D

[DividedThigh]

I think I know this person & you do too DT!:D

really, i dont have a clue, he just joined, dt

[Tiberius Pantera]

liberals are people that regret potty training.

[My Own Eyes]

It's called choices. I choose what I am going to learn, where I live, what I'm going to drive, how many children I have, who I marry, where I go to church, how hard I am willing to work to find a job or two if the need be. I choose whether I am going to save for retirement or squander my income and expect the government to take care of me. It is about choices and taking responsibility for them.

Speaking of choices, I have to get back on the backhoe and finish the job....the clock is running! :D

This thread makes me very sad.

I guess because I feel so conflicted about it.

I was raised by the philosophy that you get out what you put in, you reap what you sow, that life is what you make it.

But somewhere in the past year that philosophy has failed me.

Sometimes you can do all the right things, and work your butt off, and life throws you a curve ball and leaves you with nothing.

That's not to say that I think its the governments responsibility to fix that. I think its our responsibility. And I think that the government stepped in way back when, because we failed.

And I think we failed because we were too busy calulating how much anyone really deserved help. And I think that most didn't make the grade.

I think that's human nature, the tendency to only want to help those how deserve it.

I think that's why grace is such a difficult concept for us. Unmerited favor. God giving us what we don't deserve.

I don't profess to be very knowlegeable when it comes to spiritual things. But in our quest to be more like Him, shouldn't grace towards others be a part of that?

[Baron1710]

I think Rico has done an excellent job of presenting the lending crisis.

My husband and I both have college degrees, so we are not illiterate, uneducated people. We researched the different types of loans prior to buying a home. We used a mortgage broker from our church and we "trusted" him to help us with the details. Well, in some ways he outright lied to us, and other things he just didn't disclose. I knew we were getting an ARM, but it was fixed for 5 years. He told us we didn't qualify for a conventional loan because my husband hadn't been at his job for 2 years. BTW our credit rating is over 800. He said refinance in 2 years, and we would be fine. Oh, but he failed to mention that there was a prepayment penalty on the loan. I have searched all the papers we signed and still haven't found mention of it. He also failed to tell us that the HELOC had a variable rate. I thought it was fixed for 5 years like the primary loan. Now, I agree that maybe I should have researched the HELOC better, but his lies and failure to disclose were not my fault. Now we have never missed a payment or paid late, and we haven't hit our 5 years yet, so we still have time to refinance, but I am sympathetic to others in a similar situation.

I think predatory lending practices and LYING are not as uncommon as some here think, although, it probably depends on the region where one lives.

I hear what you are saying. I remember when we signed on the house we bought in Norfolk. We got an ARM locked in for 5 years and knew we would be leaving before 5 years. When we went in to sign the papers the attorney was ticked because he was in there all day. I went over every word, and guess what they lied about the interest rate and the ARM in the paperwork was only locked for 3 years. No matter what they tell you, you have to read it for yourself.

[DividedThigh]

I hear what you are saying. I remember when we signed on the house we bought in Norfolk. We got an ARM locked in for 5 years and knew we would be leaving before 5 years. When we went in to sign the papers the attorney was ticked because he was in there all day. I went over every word, and guess what they lied about the interest rate and the ARM in the paperwork was only locked for 3 years. No matter what they tell you, you have to read it for yourself.

yeah baron good point i enfuriate them because i have a simple rule, unless i have read it , i dont sign it, so true, dt

[Tiberius Pantera]

I read the political hoopla and the threads about what the government should do FOR us and it just seems to me like there are so many people who want the government to do everything including wiping their "nose" when they have a sniffle.

Where has personal responsibility gone?

Why is it the government's responsibility to find me a job?
Why is it the government's responsibility to heal me when I'm sick?
Why is it the governments responsibility to put food on my table?
Why is it the governments responsibility to make sure that I make enough money?
Why is it the governments responsibility to control gas prices?
Why is it the governments responsibility to tell me how to raise my kids?
Why is it the governments responsibility to bail me out of my house mortgage when I was the one who signed the contract for a bad loan deal?
Why is it the governments responsibility to bail out the airline industry or any industry for that matter? Why should I be responsible for someone's else's bad business decisions?

Have Americans really become so soft and wimpy that they can't take life by the horns, man up and do what is right?


If I can't afford health care like people who make lots of money, then I can't. No big deal. It's not their responsibility to take care of me. If I can't afford to send my kids to college, then they can join the Armed forces and get them to pay for it after they have done their duty.

There ARE jobs out there. Many of them may not pay boat loads of money, but if you can't afford your life style, they you'll just have to pare down and adjust it. It really isn't rocket science.

Don't have many job skills? GET SOME! READ A BOOK! FIGURE SOMETHING OUT! Apply yourself and stop whining.

As great a country as America has been it just really ticks me off (can you tell?) that our citizens wring their hands and whine and moan and belly ache and complain instead of getting off their fat duff and doing something about it....like work! Kill the cable bill, get rid of the expensive cell phone, stop buying cigarettes, booze, lottery tickets and stop using credit cards to finance your lifestyle!!!

Accept the responsibility! In America, there are few obstacles and "scads" of opportunities!!! Become a winner not a whiner!! :D



I'm MOW and I approve this message

Those who are dependant on government will do anything to perpetuate government.

It is in the interest of government to expand its roll. Doing so garners more power.

The government educates us and one wonders why we are raising a generation whose first question is always
“What is the government going to do about it?”

These things are connected my friend.

[DividedThigh]

This thread makes me very sad.

I guess because I feel so conflicted about it.

I was raised by the philosophy that you get out what you put in, you reap what you sow, that life is what you make it.

But somewhere in the past year that philosophy has failed me.

Sometimes you can do all the right things, and work your butt off, and life throws you a curve ball and leaves you with nothing.

That's not to say that I think its the governments responsibility to fix that. I think its our responsibility. And I think that the government stepped in way back when, because we failed.

And I think we failed because we were too busy calulating how much anyone really deserved help. And I think that most didn't make the grade.

I think that's human nature, the tendency to only want to help those how deserve it.

I think that's why grace is such a difficult concept for us. Unmerited favor. God giving us what we don't deserve.

I don't profess to be very knowlegeable when it comes to spiritual things. But in our quest to be more like Him, shouldn't grace towards others be a part of that?

i agree my friend, i believe we must expect folks to do there best, and help them with the rest, that is what god does after all, weighing every situation and balancing it with the compassion of our savior is so good, it is sad, god bless you sis, dt

[Tiberius Pantera]

An ARM is only good for yanking ones arm off.

I knew this 15 years ago. dont people remember the 80s?

[Grasshopper]

This here just ain't even Christian, and I am going to report it.

So now it's unChristian to want to protect American jobs, wages, health care, and enforce equitable lending practices?

This is what I’m talking about. Now the insinuation is that anyone who disagrees with you is UnChristian. I have news for you…we’re just as Christian as you are and we care about America.

America is in the grips of Social Darwinism where those who can survive and those who can or who have a bad turn of events are left to ROT. And the Church has been co-opted by the forces driving this system to preach the gospel of greed. In 2006 the CEO of UHC got over 7 BILLION in stock options…while 18,000 Americans died because they didn’t have the insurance coverage they needed for life saving treatments. Tell me…what’s so “Christian” about that???

We also care that President Bush has engaged in a wreckless war in Iraq under false pretenses that has undermined our political leverage to rally in the international community against real and present threats like Iran, N. Korea, and China. It might take an entire generation before the international community takes us seriously again when faced with a real crisis. It’s like an international, “Boy Who Cried WMD’s” story. One day there may be a real and present threat and the international community won’t trust our intelligence or our motivations. It was already an uphill battle…now it will be next to impossible for at least the next 10 years. Bush’s Iraq policy has completely undermined our national security. Watch…I’ll get called “unchristian” for my opinion here too. lol

[Ron]

really, i dont have a clue, he just joined, dt

Use the force!:D

[My Own Eyes]

An ARM is only good for yanking ones arm off.

I knew this 15 years ago. dont people remember the 80s?

As in when I got my cabbage patch doll and insisted on taking it everywhere with me, and even requesting a high chair when we ate in restaurants?

I guess that distracted me from paying any attention to the economy :toofunny

[DividedThigh]

Use the force!:D

you are so funny ron, dt the force is with you brother, lol

[Ron]

I believe everyone should have the same opportunity!
What they do with that opportunity is up to them.

[Grasshopper]

I think Rico has done an excellent job of presenting the lending crisis.

My husband and I both have college degrees, so we are not illiterate, uneducated people. We researched the different types of loans prior to buying a home. We used a mortgage broker from our church and we "trusted" him to help us with the details. Well, in some ways he outright lied to us, and other things he just didn't disclose. I knew we were getting an ARM, but it was fixed for 5 years. He told us we didn't qualify for a conventional loan because my husband hadn't been at his job for 2 years. BTW our credit rating is over 800. He said refinance in 2 years, and we would be fine. Oh, but he failed to mention that there was a prepayment penalty on the loan. I have searched all the papers we signed and still haven't found mention of it. He also failed to tell us that the HELOC had a variable rate. I thought it was fixed for 5 years like the primary loan. Now, I agree that maybe I should have researched the HELOC better, but his lies and failure to disclose were not my fault. Now we have never missed a payment or paid late, and we haven't hit our 5 years yet, so we still have time to refinance, but I am sympathetic to others in a similar situation.

I think predatory lending practices and LYING are not as uncommon as some here think, although, it probably depends on the region where one lives.

These people don't care. They're just going to think you're another irresponsible whiner who wants government help and shouldn't have it. It's all your fault you were lied to and didn't go to school to understand the ins and outs of the trade. In fact...they'll call you a liberal and a socialist for telling the truth.

[Tiberius Pantera]

I believe everyone should have the same opportunity!
What they do with that opportunity is up to them.

well, my friend, in America everyone does! and if someone is denied that same opportunity, they can take you to court and sue your fanny off!

opportunity aint what our liberal friend wants! he want someone to whip his snotty widdle nose!

[Rico]

So now it's unChristian to want to protect American jobs, wages, health care, and enforce equitable lending practices?

This is what I’m talking about. Now the insinuation is that anyone who disagrees with you is UnChristian. I have news for you…we’re just as Christian as you are and we care about America.

America is in the grips of Social Darwinism where those who can survive and those who can or who have a bad turn of events are left to ROT. And the Church has been co-opted by the forces driving this system to preach the gospel of greed. In 2006 the CEO of UHC got over 7 BILLION in stock options…while 18,000 Americans died because they didn’t have the insurance coverage they needed for life saving treatments. Tell me…what’s so “Christian” about that???

We also care that President Bush has engaged in a wreckless war in Iraq under false pretenses that has undermined our political leverage to rally in the international community against real and present threats like Iran, N. Korea, and China. It might take an entire generation before the international community takes us seriously again when faced with a real crisis. It’s like an international, “Boy Who Cried WMD’s” story. One day there may be a real and present threat and the international community won’t trust our intelligence or our motivations. It was already an uphill battle…now it will be next to impossible for at least the next 10 years. Bush’s Iraq policy has completely undermined our national security. Watch…I’ll get called “unchristian” for my opinion here too. lol

GH, he was referring to how you reacted to DT saying he would pray for you.

[Grasshopper]

Those who are dependant on government will do anything to perpetuate government.

It is in the interest of government to expand its roll. Doing so garners more power.

The government educates us and one wonders why we are raising a generation whose first question is always
“What is the government going to do about it?”

These things are connected my friend.

Hey...why don't we just ditch government all together and vote in a corporate dictatorship?

[Tiberius Pantera]

Hey...why don't we just ditch government all together and vote in a corporate dictatorship?

why dont you grow up and take get some personal responsibility?

[Grasshopper]

GH, he was referring to how you reacted to DT saying he would pray for you.

dt has called me socialist and insulted me in the past. I don't want his prayers. I know what...if he wants to pray have him pray for Julie. If she gets laid off she's going to be in far worse condition than my family is seeing that she will loose her health insurance and needs it for her cancer treatments.

[Grasshopper]

why dont you grow up and take get some personal responsibility?

I have. I am my brother's keeper. His well being is my personal responsibility.

[Rico]

well, my friend, in America everyone does! and if someone is denied that same opportunity, they can take you to court and sue your fanny off!



Good luck proving in court that you were denied housing because your last name is Spanish, or you have one of those black sounding first names, like Tamika.

[My Own Eyes]

Hey...why don't we just ditch government all together and vote in a corporate dictatorship?

GH ~ With all due respect, can I offer a little suggestion? I don't think its your beliefs that are causing such an uproar as much as it is your approach.

I personally, am as liberal as the day is long, as well as a rampant feminist and a ex-apostolic, and I still manage to get a long with people here fairly well because whereas I don't apologize for what I believe, neither do I feel the need to shove it down their throats while calling them names.

I think if you soften your approach a little bit, people might actually react to your words, rather than your tone.

~MOE

[DividedThigh]

dt has called me socialist and insulted me in the past. I don't want his prayers. I know what...if he wants to pray have him pray for Julie. If she gets laid off she's going to be in far worse condition than my family is seeing that she will loose her health insurance and needs it for her cancer treatments.

i would pray for her and your bitterness that is killin you dude, dt

[stmatthew]

So now it's unChristian to want to protect American jobs, wages, health care, and enforce equitable lending practices?

This is what I’m talking about. Now the insinuation is that anyone who disagrees with you is UnChristian. I have news for you…we’re just as Christian as you are and we care about America.

America is in the grips of Social Darwinism where those who can survive and those who can or who have a bad turn of events are left to ROT. And the Church has been co-opted by the forces driving this system to preach the gospel of greed. In 2006 the CEO of UHC got over 7 BILLION in stock options…while 18,000 Americans died because they didn’t have the insurance coverage they needed for life saving treatments. Tell me…what’s so “Christian” about that???

We also care that President Bush has engaged in a wreckless war in Iraq under false pretenses that has undermined our political leverage to rally in the international community against real and present threats like Iran, N. Korea, and China. It might take an entire generation before the international community takes us seriously again when faced with a real crisis. It’s like an international, “Boy Who Cried WMD’s” story. One day there may be a real and present threat and the international community won’t trust our intelligence or our motivations. It was already an uphill battle…now it will be next to impossible for at least the next 10 years. Bush’s Iraq policy has completely undermined our national security. Watch…I’ll get called “unchristian” for my opinion here too. lol

You just don't get it, and likely will not. I am done with the conversation.

[Ron]

GH ~ With all due respect, can I offer a little suggestion? I don't think its your beliefs that are causing such an uproar as much as it is your approach.

I personally, am as liberal as the day is long, as well as a rampant feminist and a ex-apostolic, and I still manage to get a long with people here fairly well because whereas I don't apologize for what I believe, neither do I feel the need to shove it down their throats while calling them names.

I think if you soften your approach a little bit, people might actually react to your words, rather than your tone.

~MOE

Good advice MOE!

[bkstokes]

dt has called me socialist and insulted me in the past. I don't want his prayers. I know what...if he wants to pray have him pray for Julie. If she gets laid off she's going to be in far worse condition than my family is seeing that she will loose her health insurance and needs it for her cancer treatments.

Well

GH

I want your prayers and all the others' prayers as well. I don't care if your conservative, liberal, etc. Give em to me. I need more of HIM.

[Grasshopper]

Good luck proving in court that you were denied housing because your last name is Spanish, or you have one of those black sounding first names, like Tamika.

Bro...these cats don't get it. In their world everything is fair...and you’re just a whiner.

[Tiberius Pantera]

I have. I am my brother's keeper. His well being is my personal responsibility.

well, you can be assured, I dont plan on praying for you or your brother.

tell your brother to wipe his own stinking nose.

[Grasshopper]

i would pray for her and your bitterness that is killin you dude, dt

Dude...seriously. I dont want your prayers. You've called me things that were uncalled for. You're not praying in my best interests...you're offering prayer to help you feel better. Don't bother. Take that time you would spend in prayer and volunteer at a homeless shelter or something. Do something to make a difference and ditch the "pie in the sky let's pray and make it better" rutine. Put hands and feet on it and BE the answer to these prayers!

[nathan_slatter]

tell your brother to wipe his own stinking nose.

I probably shouldn't laugh but that's one of the funniest things I've ever read!

[Tiberius Pantera]

dt has called me socialist and insulted me in the past. I don't want his prayers. I know what...if he wants to pray have him pray for Julie. If she gets laid off she's going to be in far worse condition than my family is seeing that she will loose her health insurance and needs it for her cancer treatments.

? I have no clue why you would be offended at being called a socialist.

[Baron1710]

Bro...these cats don't get it. In their world everything is fair...and you’re just a whiner.

No my friend, one of the first things I learned is life is not fair. I learned real quickly not to say "It's not fair." My dad always said the same thing, "Life is not fair. Get used to it." And yes, GH, do stop whining its so unbecoming of a man.

[Ron]

Bro...these cats don't get it. In their world everything is fair...and you’re just a whiner.

Everything isn't fair!!!!

In fact God is not fair!!!!

The Bible says God is Just!!!

That being said, while life, or government, or even people are not fair, I will try to do my best both for myself and for others!

[My Own Eyes]

I probably shouldn't laugh but that's one of the funniest things I've ever read!


Nate!!!!! :bliss

Good to see ya 'round these parts! Was that a drive-by, or you gonna stick around?

[nathan_slatter]

No my friend, one of the first things I learned is life is not fair. I learned real quickly not to say "It's not fair." My dad always said the same thing, "Life is not fair. Get used to it."

Yeah... it took me around 27 years to realize this.

[DividedThigh]

Dude...I can't afford bitterness. LOL

well i would say let it go then, cause it is killin you dude, dt

[Rico]

GH ~ With all due respect, can I offer a little suggestion? I don't think its your beliefs that are causing such an uproar as much as it is your approach.

I personally, am as liberal as the day is long, as well as a rampant feminist and a ex-apostolic, and I still manage to get a long with people here fairly well because whereas I don't apologize for what I believe, neither do I feel the need to shove it down their throats while calling them names.

I think if you soften your approach a little bit, people might actually react to your words, rather than your tone.

~MOE

In his defense, he has been made fun of A LOT around here.

[Tiberius Pantera]

Good luck proving in court that you were denied housing because your last name is Spanish, or you have one of those black sounding first names, like Tamika.

its been done. repeatedly.

the supreme court just reinstated a complaint of this nature this week.

[nathan_slatter]

Nate!!!!! :bliss

Good to see ya 'round these parts! Was that a drive-by, or you gonna stick around?

**grin**

We'll see... things go much faster here than I'm used to... and do I know you by another name perhaps?

[Tiberius Pantera]

In his defense, he has been made fun of A LOT around here.

walking thru bagdad with a sign that says mohammad aint that great, does not give you the right to complain when your head explodes from an AK-47

[My Own Eyes]

No my friend, one of the first things I learned is life is not fair. I learned real quickly not to say "It's not fair." My dad always said the same thing, "Life is not fair. Get used to it." And yes, GH, do stop whining its so unbecoming of a man.

I think there is a secret book that parents are given upon the birth of their first child. In it they learn all sorts of "wise" sayings...

Along with "Life's not fair"

We have.... "Because I said so..."

"Oh yeah? When I was your age....."

There are many more that escape me right now (as I never had any children and never got to read the secret book!)

[Rico]

its been done. repeatedly.

the supreme court just reinstated a complaint of this nature this week.

Again, GOOD LUCK.

[Tiberius Pantera]

I probably shouldn't laugh but that's one of the funniest things I've ever read!

Nate! buddy! whats up?

[Grasshopper]

No my friend, one of the first things I learned is life is not fair. I learned real quickly not to say "It's not fair." My dad always said the same thing, "Life is not fair. Get used to it." And yes, GH, do stop whining its so unbecoming of a man.

Many use this as an excuse to say, "Don't complain...just tolerate our abuse."

[Ron]

I think there is a secret book that parents are given upon the birth of their first child. In it they learn all sorts of "wise" sayings...

Along with "Life's not fair"

We have.... "Because I said so..."

"Oh yeah? When I was your age....."

There are many more that escape me right now (as I never had any children and never got to read the secret book!)

Quit whining
Don't take what's not yours
Share

[DividedThigh]

? I have no clue why you would be offended at being called a socialist.

for the life of me, i cant either, why am i a bad guy for saying that huh, lol

[My Own Eyes]

**grin**

We'll see... things go much faster here than I'm used to... and do I know you by another name perhaps?

Wow! I get a moment to revel in the rush of the fact that I KNOW SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW!!!! :D

Let me see....I used to call you my evil twin....but I think I've since surpassed you. :drama

ETA: oh...if you need more help...look at my signature. Does it sound like something you would say??

[nathan_slatter]

Nate! buddy! whats up?

Hey... wow, I'm more popular than I realized. I have people I don't know who know me... **grin** Though, I have an idea as to who you are -- though, the first time I saw your name, I couldn't help but picture Dimebag Darrell.

[Tiberius Pantera]

No my friend, one of the first things I learned is life is not fair. I learned real quickly not to say "It's not fair." My dad always said the same thing, "Life is not fair. Get used to it." And yes, GH, do stop whining its so unbecoming of a man.

my dad used to day "Life's not fair, get over it"

he also used to say Suck it up!

[Tiberius Pantera]

Hey... wow, I'm more popular than I realized. I have people I don't know who know me... **grin** Though, I have an idea as to who you are -- though, the first time I saw your name, I couldn't help but picture Dimebag Darrell.

LOL! email me! I got a new computer at work and lost your email addy!

[Rico]

walking thru bagdad with a sign that says mohammad aint that great, does not give you the right to complain when your head explodes from an AK-47

I've made fun of him too, so I was talking about myself as much as anyone else. However, it has gone from making fun of to insulting lately. If I were as happy with the report function as some people around here are claiming...................well, that's an issue on another thread.

[nathan_slatter]

Wow! I get a moment to revel in the rush of the fact that I KNOW SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW!!!! :D

Let me see....I used to call you my evil twin....but I think I've since surpassed you. :drama

Ahhh... I see... the evilness abounds **evil glee** bwahahahaha

[DividedThigh]

Translation: Don't complain...just tolerate our abuse.

if you think this is abuse gh you dont really want to know, have seen it, this aint it, dt

[Tiberius Pantera]

for the life of me, i cant either, why am i a bad guy for saying that huh, lol

Its kind of like getting an F in English class for speaking ENGLISH.

[My Own Eyes]

Quit whining
Don't take what's not yours
Share


Ok, now I just have Bill Murray in my head, from "Groundhog Day"

"Clean up your room. Be nice to your sister. And oh yeah, don't drive on the railroad tracks!"

[Grasshopper]

Hey...if Julie gets laid off and looses her health insurance and she finds herself unable to get coverage...can I count on some of you fine Christian folks to send her a "Sorry to hear you're going to die...but life's not fair.", card?

[nathan_slatter]

LOL! email me! I got a new computer at work and lost your email addy!

Just sent you a pm because the same thing happened to me...

[Ron]

Translation: Don't complain...just tolerate our abuse.

I never tolerate abuse!

Consider this though, while we are talking right now there is untold death destruction and misery in SE Asia!

In China & Myanmar anyone of those people would trade an arm and a leg just to have the lowest position in society in North America!

Problems, yes, corruption, very much so, can we improve?

We can, and need to, but whining about it will not change it.

[My Own Eyes]

Just sent you a pm because the same thing happened to me...

Don't do it T.P., he'll only use it to send you spam! :D

[Ron]

Ok, now I just have Bill Murray in my head, from "Groundhog Day"

"Clean up your room. Be nice to your sister. And oh yeah, don't drive on the railroad tracks!"

Or in our home,

Don't pick on you sister/brother!:bliss

[Tiberius Pantera]

I've made fun of him too, so I was talking about myself as much as anyone else. However, it has gone from making fun of to insulting lately. If I were as happy with the report function as some people around here are claiming...................well, that's an issue on another thread.

Like I said, some folk take a beating because they walk up to the guy who can adminster a beating and say "beat me"

that dude, doesnt really have a complaint.

[Tiberius Pantera]

Hey...if Julie gets laid off and looses her health insurance and she finds herself unable to get coverage...can I count on some of you fine Christian folks to send her a "Sorry to hear you're going to die...but life's not fair.", card?

Is Julie currently looking for another Job?

has Julie been looking for a more secure posisiton since things got shaky at her current employment?

Has Julie been working to make herself more marketable over the last 3 or 4 years?

these are all very important questions.

[DividedThigh]

the blame game, that is grass hoppers game, dt

[Grasshopper]

I never tolerate abuse!

Consider this though, while we are talking right now there is untold death destruction and misery in SE Asia!

In China & Myanmar anyone of those people would trade an arm and a leg just to have the lowest position in society in North America!

Problems, yes, corruption, very much so, can we improve?

We can, and need to, but whining about it will not change it.

True...but right now as we speak, this year 18,000 people will die from treatable conditions because they couldn't afford their health care. I can't do much for Asia...but I can do what I can for fellow Americans.

[DividedThigh]

Is Julie currently looking for another Job?

has Julie been looking for a more secure posisiton since things got shaky at her current employment?

Has Julie been working to make herself more marketable over the last 3 or 4 years?

these are all very important questions.

careful grass hopper, that sounds like personal responsiblity, grass dont believe in that dope, dt

[Baron1710]

True...but right now as we speak, this year 18,000 people will die from treatable conditions because they couldn't afford their health care. I can't do much for Asia...but I can do what I can for fellow Americans.

Then do it and quit trying to take my money for your health care.

[Grasshopper]

Is Julie currently looking for another Job?

has Julie been looking for a more secure posisiton since things got shaky at her current employment?

Has Julie been working to make herself more marketable over the last 3 or 4 years?

these are all very important questions.

Yes she has. She's only staying where she's at right now because the last two jobs would cause her to have to change insurance policies and she couldn't afford the new policies and her condition was listed as "Pre-existing". She's pretty marketable. I don't think she'll have a problem getting a job. It's the insurance coverage for her treatments that we're all worried about.

[nathan_slatter]

Here's how it should go:

1. Stop any special treatment that the corporations recieve as corporations. There is no way to hold them accountable to their indiscretions. That BearStearn corporation should have bit the dust. That's corporate socialism. If a company makes stupid decisions about their business -- then they don't deserve to exist. They're stinking entities -- not human -- so why should my dollar be sabotaged because of a corporation.

2. Stop lobbying. Call it what it is -- bribery. If you get caught using lobbyist you should go to jail.

3. The only rights a person is guaranteed is life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These are thing things that the government should guarentee. Everything else is provided by local/state government.

And, it is stealing when I don't agree with where the money goes after it leaves my pay. Stealing from me to give to someone else, regardless of the reason, is theft. Robin Hood -- as cool as he was -- was still a thief and a robber at the end of the day.

[Ron]

True...but right now as we speak, this year 18,000 people will die from treatable conditions because they couldn't afford their health care. I can't do much for Asia...but I can do what I can for fellow Americans.

Welll, health care reform is coming to America.
It is just a matter of what kind & in what form.


Time will tell if it fixes anything or makes it better.

[Rico]

Like I said, some folk take a beating because they walk up to the guy who can adminster a beating and say "beat me"

that dude, doesnt really have a complaint.

I don't generally see him doing that, though. I can't say that I have read all of his posts, mainly because he had this tendency to write 18 paragraphs at a time, but I have watched him make his viewpoint known only to get jumped on by a few select posters. Most of the time it's just part of forum life, but lately it seems to have gotten more personal in nature. My guess is he's getting to the point that he feels defensive before he even posts anything because he knows someone is going to start calling him names.

[Tiberius Pantera]

Yes she has. She's only staying where she's at right now because the last two jobs would cause her to have to change insurance policies and she couldn't afford the new policies and her condition was listed as "Pre-existing". She's pretty marketable. I don't think she'll have a problem getting a job. It's the insurance coverage for her treatments that we're all worried about.

hmm. because i have changed jobs several times with no issue going to the new employer related to pre existing condition.

something doesnt sound right here.

[Grasshopper]

Then do it and quit trying to take my money for your health care.

That's stupid (silly kinda stupid) because your premiums are already so freakin' high because YOU ALREADY ARE paying for the unsinsured. The cost of their unpaid bills (and fees) are passed down to you in higher health care costs and thereby higher premiums. You obviously don't understand the system we have right now and the systems being proposed.

The system being proposed by the Democrats will force people to buy their own health insurance. The government just negotiates the lower premiums with private companies by extending the same benefits those in Congress get to the average citizen. This helps insure that more people are covered and thereby reduce the costs being passed down to all of US in higher premiums. DUH!

Do you really believe you and I should pay for the uninsured in higher and every rising premiums?

[DividedThigh]

i think calling people stupid is personal and much worse than socialist, dt

[Rico]

Yes she has. She's only staying where she's at right now because the last two jobs would cause her to have to change insurance policies and she couldn't afford the new policies and her condition was listed as "Pre-existing". She's pretty marketable. I don't think she'll have a problem getting a job. It's the insurance coverage for her treatments that we're all worried about.

I happen to know a little something about insurance, and when it comes to group coverage pre-existing conditions are not a reason to exclude someone from the policy. Typically, new employees have so long to join the plan. If they don't, then they have to qualify for the coverage. Also, there is a yearly open enrollment period for those who didn't sign up when they had the chance.

[Tiberius Pantera]

I don't generally see him doing that, though. I can't say that I have read all of his posts, mainly because he had this tendency to write 18 paragraphs at a time, but I have watched him make his viewpoint known only to get jumped on by a few select posters. Most of the time it's just part of forum life, but lately it seems to have gotten more personal in nature. My guess is he's getting to the point that he feels defensive before he even posts anything because he knows someone is going to start calling him names.

Rico, in this thread on personal responsibility he refused prayer, requested a hand out and twisted the words of those opposing expanding governemnt to suggest that some here hate poor people.

THIS THREAD.

I just got here today so I cant tell you about other threads but it seems to me that current performance is some indication of past performance.

Ask DT he knows about that kind of stuff....

at any rate he has effectivly told radical muslims that alah smells like pig poop.

[Ron]

That's stupid (silly kinda stupid) because your premiums are already so freakin' high because YOU ALREADY ARE paying for the unsinsured. The cost of their unpaid bills (and fees) are passed down to you in higher health care costs and thereby higher premiums. You obviously don't understand the system we have right now and the systems being proposed.

Again, I would reiterate what MOE said, it isn't what you say, but how it is said!

I think she gave wise advice.

[Tiberius Pantera]

I happen to know a little something about insurance, and when it comes to group coverage pre-existing conditions are not a reason to exclude someone from the policy. Typically, new employees have so long to join the plan. If they don't, then they have to qualify for the coverage. Also, there is a yearly open enrollment period for those who didn't sign up when they had the chance.

AND THE WINNER IS........














DRUM ROLL PLEASE................





















RICO!!!!!

[Ron]

BTW, I noticed Admin is on the prowl!

Can't be good.

[Rico]

Rico, in this thread on personal responsibility he refused prayer, requested a hand out and twisted the words of those opposing expanding governemnt to suggest that some here hate poor people.

THIS THREAD.

I just got here today so I cant tell you about other threads but it seems to me that current performance is some indication of past performance.

Ask DT he knows about that kind of stuff....

at any rate he has effectivly told radical muslims that alah smells like pig poop.

I doubt you "just got here today." :D (Did you get my pm?)

[DividedThigh]

i dont let my kids say freakin, it is just as bad as other evil words, dt

[Ron]

I doubt you "just got here today." :D (Did you get my pm?)

He did just got here today as TB!:D

[Baron1710]

Here's how it should go:

1. Stop any special treatment that the corporations recieve as corporations. There is no way to hold them accountable to their indiscretions. That BearStearn corporation should have bit the dust. That's corporate socialism. If a company makes stupid decisions about their business -- then they don't deserve to exist. They're stinking entities -- not human -- so why should my dollar be sabotaged because of a corporation.

2. Stop lobbying. Call it what it is -- bribery. If you get caught using lobbyist you should go to jail..

Gotta respectfully disagree. Sometimes, maybe even often, that is what happens but lobbyist provide valuable information to Congressmen on issues that they don't have the time or the staff to research.

3. The only rights a person is guaranteed is life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These are thing things that the government should guarentee. Everything else is provided by local/state government.

Just one more thing

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.



And, it is stealing when I don't agree with where the money goes after it leaves my pay. Stealing from me to give to someone else, regardless of the reason, is theft. Robin Hood -- as cool as he was -- was still a thief and a robber at the end of the day.

Dead on.

[Rico]

AND THE WINNER IS........














DRUM ROLL PLEASE................





















RICO!!!!!


The part I didn't include is that claims history makes a difference in the premiums the company has to pay. So, someone having cancer would not affect a new employee's right to join group coverage, but it will affect the premium the company pays once those claims start being paid, and not in a good way.

[DividedThigh]

questions what do democrats do when they get frustrated with the truth, answer call people names and belittle there beliefs, dt

[Tiberius Pantera]

I doubt you "just got here today." :D (Did you get my pm?)

LOL!

[Grasshopper]

i dont let my kids say freakin, it is just as bad as other evil words, dt

I was never told it was a bad word. LOL But my previous pastor believed "shucks" was a bad word too so I understand it.

Hey, did you ever hear of how Tony Campolo gave a speech about hunger and used the "S" word. He said that the majority of Christians don't give a "S". The crowed gasped. He then said that they were most likely more upset with the fact that he said the "S" word than the fact that so many tens of thousands were suffering from hunger.

I got a kick out of that. And it adequately describes the situation we find ourselves in. We worry about the small juicy stuff and ignore the major issues facing our society.

[DividedThigh]

who are you masked conservative of steely wit, it must be the shadow or t pantera, dt

[Grasshopper]

questions what do democrats do when they get frustrated with the truth, answer call people names and belittle there beliefs, dt

Bro...I didn't write the first post that accused anyone seeking justice of being irresponsible whiners. I found that insulting. Some people legitimately need help. He left no exceptions in his rant. And that's what it was...a rant.

[DividedThigh]

I was never told it was a bad word. LOL But my previous pastor believed "shucks" was a bad word too so I understand it.

Hey, did you ever hear of how Tony Campolo gave a speech about hunger and used the "S" word. He said that the majority of Christians don't give a "S". The crowed gasped. He then said that they were most likely more upset with the fact that he said the "S" word than the fact that so many tens of thousands were suffering from hunger.

I got a kick out of that.

not surprised by that , i still dont let my kids say it just because he used it as a teaching tool, but i understand, dt

[Cindy]

I rented a small backhoe once. Had some issues with a septic line and had to dig it up. I wasn't thinking while I was digging and ended up almost tipping the backhoe over! :toofunny I can laugh about it now, but I thought for sure I was gonna meet my maker when the back tire went right into the ditch I had been digging! Thank God there was a huge tree in the yard and that I had enough chains to hook the bucket too so I could pull the backhoe out. :D

:toofunny

[Tiberius Pantera]

questions what do democrats do when they get frustrated with the truth, answer call people names and belittle there beliefs, dt

one day this kid was selling some puppies.
they had a sign that said
"Democrat puppies"

Barak came by stumping and saw it. He thought it was cute and so he asked the boy "why are these cute pupies democrats?"

the little boy, not knowing Obama from Adam said "dont worry Mr. in a few days they will be Republican puppies!"

Obama was confused and asked why that was and the little boy replied

"They will open their eyes!"

[DividedThigh]

Bro...I didn't write the first post that accused anyone seeking justice of being irresponsible whiners. I found that insulting. Some people legitimately need help. He left no exceptions in his rant. And that's what it was...a rant.

i agree there are people that need help, he addressed that when he spoke of responding to legitimate need, but callin baron stupid is uncalled for and just mean spirited, dt

[Rico]

I had a pastor who would have a fit if anyone said, "fart."

[DividedThigh]

one day this kid was selling some puppies.
they had a sign that said
"Democrat puppies"

Barak came by stumping and saw it. He thought it was cute and so he asked the boy "why are these cute pupies democrats?"

the little boy, not knowing Obama from Adam said "dont worry Mr. in a few days they will be Republican puppies!"

Obama was confused and asked why that was and the little boy replied

"They will open their eyes!"

now that is funny, dt

[Baron1710]

i agree there are people that need help, he addressed that when he spoke of responding to legitimate need, but callin baron stupid is uncalled for and just mean spirited, dt

It's cool I have thick skin. I am not easily offended. I have been called worse like "lawyer."

[Grasshopper]

not surprised by that , i still dont let my kids say it just because he used it as a teaching tool, but i understand, dt

What do you think about Campolo's statement? lol

[nathan_slatter]

It's cool I have thick skin. I am not easily offended. I have been called worse like "lawyer."

**grin**

LAWYER!!!!

[DividedThigh]

It's cool I have thick skin. I am not easily offended. I have been called worse like "lawyer."

that is almost as bad as being called broker, lol,dt

[Rico]

It's cool I have thick skin. I am not easily offended. I have been called worse like "lawyer."

Why you good for nuthin................................LAWYER!! There I said it and will take my ban with honor! :D























Are you really a lawyer? People have told me I would have made a good lawyer. Don't know if I should take it as a compliment or not. :D

[Tiberius Pantera]

The part I didn't include is that claims history makes a difference in the premiums the company has to pay. So, someone having cancer would not affect a new employee's right to join group coverage, but it will affect the premium the company pays once those claims start being paid, and not in a good way.

True but it would also be spread accross the employee pool which means the company would have to make a decision on this.

I think we have the same questions about this story.... which is yet another of the reasons our friend is having these issues with the other boys and girls in the sand box.

[DividedThigh]

other issues, my daughter always says this one and that has issues, no kidding, dt

[Baron1710]

Why you good for nuthin................................LAWYER!! There I said it and will take my ban with honor! :D

Are you really a lawyer? People have told me I would have made a good lawyer. Don't know if I should take it as a compliment or not. :D

That's what they told me when they released the results of the bar exam, and asked me for my dues.

[DividedThigh]

pay up baron, you owe society its due, lol,dt

[ManOfWord]

Mow, I have no qualms with what you are saying. On the basis of your statement you are 100% right.

On the other hand, could it be that people are not taught those principles?
Are there not some who just have not been taught basic initiative, drive, determination?

What about those who grew up in an atmosphere where they were not taught
those things?

I speak of myself, my dad died when I was 4 so I basically do not know him aside from pics.
My mom struggled raising three kids & turned to alcoholism. So, basically I grew up with no father figure, no direction, and a lot of baggage.

I have no college degree, but I have had people see something I did not even see, & they gave me breaks, & training, & lots of encouragement where I am actually in Management with out a degree.

Could it be that some just need a break?
Maybe some life skills training?

Just asking.

So, basically, you DO have industriousness, good work ethics and the refusal to be a victim! You pulled out of the dive and did well, obviously!

The concept of government helping the poor is found in the Bible, both in the OT and the NT. What do you think the tithes were used for in the OT?

I rented a small backhoe once. Had some issues with a septic line and had to dig it up. I wasn't thinking while I was digging and ended up almost tipping the backhoe over! :toofunny I can laugh about it now, but I thought for sure I was gonna meet my maker when the back tire went right into the ditch I had been digging! Thank God there was a huge tree in the yard and that I had enough chains to hook the bucket too so I could pull the backhoe out. :D

Been there, done that!!! LOL LOL LOL!!!!

According to MOW and most conservatives I know she's just another looser who just won't take responsibility. To me...she's a hero. And while most hate welfare...I thank God for the ability we had to glean until I could leave home and stand on my own two feet.

So, where did I say that about your Mother? Did you forget to ask me what I thought about that situation? Your Mother is to be commended. She also refused to be a victim and rose above the situation. That is what help is for. It is to HELP people, not support them. Everyone needs a little help once in a while but it is NOT the government's or anyone else's responsibility to support my family or reward me or anyone else for laziness and an entitlement mentality! :D

Bro...I didn't write the first post that accused anyone seeking justice of being irresponsible whiners. I found that insulting. Some people legitimately need help. He left no exceptions in his rant. And that's what it was...a rant.

And you're not ranting? You're not serious, really? :D
If I put all of your posts here end to end, they would be one HUGE rant! You just disagree with some else's rant so you just rant LOUDER! :D

[Rico]

True but it would also be spread accross the employee pool which means the company would have to make a decision on this.

I think we have the same questions about this story.... which is yet another of the reasons our friend is having these issues with the other boys and girls in the sand box.

It could end up being a situation that is out of the company's hands too. Insurance companies are not obligated to renew group coverage. If the cost for taking care of one employee with cancer proves to be too high to fall within the insurance company's standards they can simply refuse to renew the policy. Because of privacy issues, people don't realize that this is one reason why companies end up changing health insurance carriers. They find a company willing to insure the group, but it charges a higher rate because of the claims history. One person can make that much of a difference in group coverage. It's especially hard for small companies to deal with because the size of the group isn't large enough to offset what has to be paid to care for just one person in the group.

[My Own Eyes]

He did just got here today as TB!:D

Yeah, is it supposed to be a secret who he is? Because I keep wanting to use his other name.

[My Own Eyes]

Again, I would reiterate what MOE said, it isn't what you say, but how it is said!

I think she gave wise advice.

Wow, I don't think anyone ever used the word "wise" to describe advice that I gave! :D

[Ron]

Yeah, is it supposed to be a secret who he is? Because I keep wanting to use his other name.

I don't know, but if he chooses not to reveal it-I won't!:happydance

[Rico]

That's what they told me when they released the results of the bar exam, and asked me for my dues.

Cool. Well, you don't come across as a stuck up know it all attorney type, so I think it's safe to say you haven't let it go to your head.

[Baron1710]

pay up baron, you owe society its due, lol,dt

I am. Besides what the government confiscates each week. I am taking care of my family so others don't have to!!

[Baron1710]

Cool. Well, you don't come across as a stuck up know it all attorney type, so I think it's safe to say you haven't let it go to your head.

Cuz I'm stupid, haven't ya heard.:happydance

[Grasshopper]

True but it would also be spread accross the employee pool which means the company would have to make a decision on this.

I think we have the same questions about this story.... which is yet another of the reasons our friend is having these issues with the other boys and girls in the sand box.

I just called my wife to ask her exactly why Julie was afraid to go to another employer (my wife works with her). My wife said that the issue with her insurance is that she’s outright denied coverage for her cancer because it’s a “pre-existing condition”.

[My Own Eyes]

I don't know, but if he chooses not to reveal it-I won't!:happydance

I won't either, but it's hard!!!! I give people a name in my head, and I tend to want to use their names when I am answering their posts. It's like everyone calling me Mich, rather than Moe. I'm still Mich, even though I changed my name.

[DividedThigh]

I am. Besides what the government confiscates each week. I am taking care of my family so others don't have to!!

me too bro, license fees and such for me total bout 3k annual, sounds like confiscation to me, not good, just kidding anyway, dt

[DividedThigh]

Cuz I'm stupid, haven't ya heard.:happydance

dont say that about my friend no matter what the libs say baron, dt lol:happydance

[Brother Price]

I have but a few moments before I have to get dressed for a retirement party at my school, but I am sickened by our government's treatment of the seniors and those who are poor.

My grandmother was on Social Security, a program she and my Grandpa paid heavy into. She also, before she retired, worked for the school system. She went to the Social Security office, and had them fill out the papers so she would get her check from them, and still get her pension from the state. Some eight years later, they contacted her, and told her that she had received too much out of her account, and they were freezing her account and money from the government. They admitted it was their mistake, but they said that she was not entitled to her own money, or my grandfather's money. It was their money, and they told them that they could not get it. Last time I checked, it was theft to do that. Now, she just started receiving her money, but only a small portion of her money.

I say it again. The government said she could not get her money that she paid and my Grandpa paid! Yet some loose woman who has 8 kids by 8 different Dad's can get assistance, food, and money for being immoral and having that many kids. Somone tell me how this is right.

My grandmother has to pay about $300/month in perscriptions. Oh yeah, I am all for the government helping with health care costs, especially since they stole from the seniors and vets the pension, and put all that money in the general fund.

The government should own up to it's responsibilities, stop the welfare abuse, and help those who are working make it. That is not entitlement, but insurance for a continuing and healthy economy.

[nathan_slatter]

I just called my wife to ask her exactly why Julie was afraid to go to another employer (my wife works with her). My wife said that the issue with her insurance is that she’s outright denied coverage for her cancer because it’s a “pre-existing condition”.

Does she have access to COBRA? Which is an insurance that one pays for during the transition... it keeps insurance companies from using the pre-existing condition. That said, who really trusts insurance companies anyway. They are out for pure profit.

[Brother Price]

I just called my wife to ask her exactly why Julie was afraid to go to another employer (my wife works with her). My wife said that the issue with her insurance is that she’s outright denied coverage for her cancer because it’s a “pre-existing condition”.
And that is why the current insurance system is corrupt and should be nationalized. They want the sick to die and rob the healthy of more money. It is a crime the way they treat us. A Crime!

[Rico]

I just called my wife to ask her exactly why Julie was afraid to go to another employer (my wife works with her). My wife said that the issue with her insurance is that she’s outright denied coverage for her cancer because it’s a “pre-existing condition”.

Sorry, but that is the wrong answer. I am licensed in almost 10 States. The whole premise behind group insurance is that the insurance company agrees to take everyone in the group, regardless of their health.

[nathan_slatter]

And that is why the current insurance system is corrupt and should be nationalized. They want the sick to die and rob the healthy of more money. It is a crime the way they treat us. A Crime!

Well... if the church would do what the church is supposed to do and stop giving over to the government what truly is the churches duty -- then there may be no need for insurance companies and government entitlements.

[Cindy]

I really don't like it here anymore. Sad and pitiful people.