School Prayer Banishment was a Good Thing

[OP_Carl]

The banishment of prayer in public schools in 1962 was a good thing for America.

It sounded the alert that folks ought to look in to what goes on in public schools.

And if folks become inquisitive enough, they'll discover exactly what the government schools are intended to do. Which goal, oddly enough, is not the intellectual training of children.

Our school structure and methods are modeled after the 17th century Prussian system, which was designed with the express purpose of producing loyal, patriotic, industrious, compliant, peer-oriented workers and soldiers that are incapable of questioning orders.

Our regimented school systems are NOT intended to impart sufficient critical thinking skills and knowledge to produce free-thinking individuals capable of logic and reason.

Our schools supplant logic and reason with emotion and animal instinct.

[Baron1710]

The banishment of prayer in public schools in 1962 was a good thing for America.

It sounded the alert that folks ought to look in to what goes on in public schools.

And if folks become inquisitive enough, they'll discover exactly what the government schools are intended to do. Which goal, oddly enough, is not the intellectual training of children.

Our school structure and methods are modeled after the 17th century Prussian system, which was designed with the express purpose of producing loyal, patriotic, industrious, compliant, peer-oriented workers and soldiers that are incapable of questioning orders.

Our regimented school systems are NOT intended to impart sufficient critical thinking skills and knowledge to produce free-thinking individuals capable of logic and reason.

Our schools supplant logic and reason with emotion and animal instinct.

Prayer has never been banned in public school. Only teacher led prayer. Student led prayer is fine. If you think about it do you really want a teacher leading your child in prayer?

[SDG]

Prayer has never been banned in public school. Only teacher led prayer. Student led prayer is fine. If you think about it do you really want a teacher leading your child in prayer?

Does anyone believe Matthew 6:6 discourages public prayer?

[SDG]

Prayer has never been banned in public school. Only teacher led prayer. Student led prayer is fine. If you think about it do you really want a teacher leading your child in prayer?

OPs would take issue w/ prayers ending in the titles ... Baptists would take issue a teacher making the sign of a crucifix ...

[Baron1710]

Does anyone believe Matthew 6:6 discourages public prayer?

No. Jesus prayed in public. And the book of Acts is full of public prayers.

[Baron1710]

OPs would take issue w/ prayers ending in the titles ... Baptists would take issue a teacher making the sign of a crucifix ...

Which was the Supreme Court's point when they banned teacher led prayer.

[OP_Carl]

Prayer has never been banned in public school. Only teacher led prayer. Student led prayer is fine. If you think about it do you really want a teacher leading your child in prayer?

I'd take that over these teachers that cut Pentecostal girls' hair, or lead their students to "vote" an autistic boy out of the class, or seduce them, or use their classroom as a podium for their stunted radical immature college-years viewpoints.

[Baron1710]

I'd take that over these teachers that cut Pentecostal girls' hair, or lead their students to "vote" an autistic boy out of the class, or seduce them, or use their classroom as a podium for their stunted radical immature college-years viewpoints.

2 of the 4 are criminal, one was just stupid, but the last one sadly seems to be encouraged.

[SDG]

I'd take that over these teachers that cut Pentecostal girls' hair, or lead their students to "vote" an autistic boy out of the class, or seduce them, or use their classroom as a podium for their stunted radical immature college-years viewpoints.

3/4 examples seem to be hyperbolic since they are illegal. Most liberals, if not all, are against these things too.

I will agree that a liberal agenda has infiltrated the public school system ... however conservatives can change this.

[Baron1710]

2 of the 4 are criminal, one was just stupid, but the last one sadly seems to be encouraged.

3/4 examples seem to be hyperbolic since they are illegal.

I will agree that a liberal agenda has infiltrated the public school system ... however conservatives can change this.

Beat you to it.:happydance

[DividedThigh]

danny, Jesus only criticized prayer as a spectacle not real communing with god, really bro, dt

[SDG]

danny, Jesus only criticized prayer as a spectacle not real communing with god, really bro, dt

Agreed ... just asked the question.

Yet some religious groups who insist on teacher-led prayer seem to be desiring this more as a spectacle ... a return to the good old Puritan days?

What if we taught our kids that they can pray in school in our homes ...?

The revival in spirituality in America that some are seeking will only happen in the home ... not in the school house or court house.

[DividedThigh]

Agreed ... just asked the question.

Yet for some religious groups who insist on teacher-led prayer desiring this more as a spectacle ... a return to the good old Puritan days?

What if we taught our kids that they can pray in school in our homes ...?

The revival in spirituality in America that some will only happen in the home ... not in the school house or court house.
agreed dan, the prob is that op is right, but did we as americans really start paying attention, dont know about that, dt

[SDG]

My little girl prays in school ... prayed before her state exam ... just recently ...

The following is a blog I wrote at Synadelfos:


Without You I Can Do Nothing: My Child's Prayer and My Pricked Heart


It's been about a couple of weeks since Danah (11), my daughter, took her state exams in reading and mathematics. As is customary, while picking up the kids and driving home yesterday, I asked how school was going ... and queried if she had gotten back the results to her TAKs state tests.

In her prissy manner, she remarked innocently, "I hope I passed".

Naturally, I thought to myself "Of course, you did, Danah. You have done exceptionally well in state testing throughout your school career. Last year, you only got 2 questions wrong on your reading test and 4 wrong in math".

While dotingly patting myself and her on the back ... she proceeded to say, " I prayed before taking my test, Daddy".

Once again, thinking to myself, I said introspectively, "No surprise. I'm sure you did, Danah. I know I used to pray before the big exams".

She pressed on and interrupted my thoughts with more....

.... (and what followed from her lips would move my eyes to tears and my heart to be pricked).

" I told Jesus that it didn't matter how smart I was. It doesn't matter how simple or hard the test is - without Him I can't do anything. I told him I really needed His help. "

I paused for awhile and blurted out, "That's, uh, good mama. That's how we all should pray".

She continued sheepishly, ....

"I also prayed for everyone in the classroom. I prayed that they all would pass. We just can't think about ourselves, Daddy. We need to think about others. I know how I would feel if I failed and I don't want them to go through that."

What a lesson learned!

God, I ask you to place in me the heart of this child. A contrite and humble heart that recognizes that I can do nothing without You. A heart that does not rely on my talents, abilities, self-sufficiency but one that places his trust wholly on You.

May I love others as you have commanded. Esteeming them as superior to myself. Empathizing with them in all things. Loving them as You do.

I also don't know what I've done to deserve such grace and mercy. Your tender mercies are new every morning.

How You have continued to shelter, bless and care for my children despite them having to be tossed to and fro ... is dumbfounding. Despite, the enormous guilt I feel for them, especially Danah, having witnessed a failed marraige .... Your Word has sprouted in them. Thank You for the increase.

Danah and Aaron, you may not realize it it but you are royalty. You are children of the King.

Lastly, Lord ... without You, I Can Do Nothing ...
With You, I can do ALL THINGS and ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.


John 15:15

I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Matthew 19:26
26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Phillipians 4:13
13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

[James Griffin]

What if we taught our kids that they can pray in school in our homes ...?

The revival in spirituality in America that some will only happen in the home ... not in the school house or court house.

Danielito,

Agreed to a point. The revival in spirituality in America will start in home, with individuals but must also happen in the school house and the courthouse, not to mention churches and marketplace.

JAG

PS Your daughter's prayer is also a sign of good parenting. ;-)

[DividedThigh]

love the prayer danny, god bless you and your little girl, i love mine too, you need to be proud, dt

[SDG]

Danielito,

Agreed to a point. The revival in spirituality in America will start in home, with individuals but must also happen in the school house and the courthouse, not to mention churches and marketplace.

JAG

PS Your daughter's prayer is also a sign of good parenting. ;-)

Agreed it must start in our homes and it will spill over.

[RevBuddy]

My little girl prays in school ... prayed before her state exam ... just recently ...

The following is a blog I wrote at Synadelfos:


Without You I Can Do Nothing: My Child's Prayer and My Pricked Heart


It's been about a couple of weeks since Danah (11), my daughter, took her state exams in reading and mathematics. As is customary, while picking up the kids and driving home yesterday, I asked how school was going ... and queried if she had gotten back the results to her TAKs state tests.

In her prissy manner, she remarked innocently, "I hope I passed".

Naturally, I thought to myself "Of course, you did, Danah. You have done exceptionally well in state testing throughout your school career. Last year, you only got 2 questions wrong on your reading test and 4 wrong in math".

While dotingly patting myself and her on the back ... she proceeded to say, " I prayed before taking my test, Daddy".

Once again, thinking to myself, I said introspectively, "No surprise. I'm sure you did, Danah. I know I used to pray before the big exams".

She pressed on and interrupted my thoughts with more....

.... (and what followed from her lips would move my eyes to tears and my heart to be pricked).

" I told Jesus that it didn't matter how smart I was. It doesn't matter how simple or hard the test is - without Him I can't do anything. I told him I really needed His help. "

I paused for awhile and blurted out, "That's, uh, good mama. That's how we all should pray".

She continued sheepishly, ....

"I also prayed for everyone in the classroom. I prayed that they all would pass. We just can't think about ourselves, Daddy. We need to think about others. I know how I would feel if I failed and I don't want them to go through that."

What a lesson learned!

God, I ask you to place in me the heart of this child. A contrite and humble heart that recognizes that I can do nothing without You. A heart that does not rely on my talents, abilities, self-sufficiency but one that places his trust wholly on You.

May I love others as you have commanded. Esteeming them as superior to myself. Empathizing with them in all things. Loving them as You do.

I also don't know what I've done to deserve such grace and mercy. Your tender mercies are new every morning.

How You have continued to shelter, bless and care for my children despite them having to be tossed to and fro ... is dumbfounding. Despite, the enormous guilt I feel for them, especially Danah, having witnessed a failed marraige .... Your Word has sprouted in them. Thank You for the increase.

Danah and Aaron, you may not realize it it but you are royalty. You are children of the King.

Lastly, Lord ... without You, I Can Do Nothing ...
With You, I can do ALL THINGS and ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.


John 15:15

I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Matthew 19:26
26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Phillipians 4:13
13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.


What an absolutely beautiful prayer and experience...I'm excited about what this little girl is going to do with her life - one that is submitted to His Will - WOW!! I love it!!!

[ChTatum]

If this has been addressed by someone else, pardon me, but I look at this from another point of view. If we believe that God's will is being done, scripture teaches that He has His way in the whirlwind, do we believe He allowed the decision to be no school sponsored prayer?

I, for one, am somewhat thankful the decision was made when it was. Had it not been, in this age of tolerance and all beliefs being equal, would we really want our children subjected to what might be taught?

[OP_Carl]

Prayer has never been banned in public school. Only teacher led prayer. Student led prayer is fine. If you think about it do you really want a teacher leading your child in prayer?

Thank you ever so much Commander Tangent. This was not anywhere close to being the main point.

Did any of the rest of the original post cause even a glimmer of a ruffle in your gray matter? :dunno

:winkgrin
:thumbsup

"Most people, sometime in their lives, stumble across truth. And most jump up, brush themselves off, and hurry on about their business as if nothing had happened." Sir Winston Churchill

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." George Orwell

So, what do you think about those Prussion-style indoctrination centers?
:hmmm

[OP_Carl]

My little girl prays in school ... prayed before her state exam ... just recently ...

The following is a blog I wrote at Synadelfos:
. . .
Phillipians 4:13
13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Nice, touching anecdote? Yes. :thumbsup :girlyluv

Encouragement towards deeper spirituality and humility? Yes. :thumbsup :praying

On topic? No. :nah :hijacked

[Kae]

The banishment of prayer in public schools in 1962 was a good thing for America.

It sounded the alert that folks ought to look in to what goes on in public schools.

And if folks become inquisitive enough, they'll discover exactly what the government schools are intended to do. Which goal, oddly enough, is not the intellectual training of children.

Our school structure and methods are modeled after the 17th century Prussian system, which was designed with the express purpose of producing loyal, patriotic, industrious, compliant, peer-oriented workers and soldiers that are incapable of questioning orders.

Our regimented school systems are NOT intended to impart sufficient critical thinking skills and knowledge to produce free-thinking individuals capable of logic and reason.

Our schools supplant logic and reason with emotion and animal instinct.

Excellent post, I have tried to explain this to people, but didn't have the right words. We are so programed to bells, we are liked trained rats and don't realize it.

[Grasshopper]

I don't want government schools teaching my kids anything about religion. That's my job as a parent. I want my kids to pray over their food and do their school work.

I think some parents just wonder why their kids aren't "getting it" so they want the gubberment teachers to lead prayer and teach religion.

[RandyWayne]

OPs would take issue w/ prayers ending in the titles ... Baptists would take issue a teacher making the sign of a crucifix ...

I can only imagine the blood that would be spit among religious groups over the style of prayer IF teachers were allowed to formally lead it.

This issue is similar to the intelligent design arguments over the past few years. Only two extremes were ever offered in that debate: A godless, pure-chance, evolutionary model and a young-earth creationist view point. I personally find BOTH models offensive to me, but the young-earth creationist one the worse of the two.
As this relates to prayer, can you imagine how offended some of the more conservative among us would be if the teacher did not end the prayer with "in Jesus name we pray"? Or how would Catholics react if it did not end with "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost...."?

[Carpenter]

If this has been addressed by someone else, pardon me, but I look at this from another point of view. If we believe that God's will is being done, scripture teaches that He has His way in the whirlwind, do we believe He allowed the decision to be no school sponsored prayer?

I, for one, am somewhat thankful the decision was made when it was. Had it not been, in this age of tolerance and all beliefs being equal, would we really want our children subjected to what might be taught?

I was wondering when someone was going to say that. The last thing I want is for the teacher to conduct some stupid ecumenical "centering" ceremony rubbing a poplar stick around a brass bowl telling us how free the birds are.

I do not want my kids exposed a prayer of the week based on all the diversity we now have in the U.S. Monday-Mong prayer, Tue-Muslim Prayer Wed-Buddah, Thu-Hindu, Friday-Christian prayer.

No way, it should start at home and would that God crush the ACLU to less than vapor!!!

[Carpenter]

I like the bumper sticker that says, "As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in school."

[pelathais]

The banishment of prayer in public schools in 1962 was a good thing for America.

It sounded the alert that folks ought to look in to what goes on in public schools.

And if folks become inquisitive enough, they'll discover exactly what the government schools are intended to do. Which goal, oddly enough, is not the intellectual training of children.

Our school structure and methods are modeled after the 17th century Prussian system, which was designed with the express purpose of producing loyal, patriotic, industrious, compliant, peer-oriented workers and soldiers that are incapable of questioning orders.

Our regimented school systems are NOT intended to impart sufficient critical thinking skills and knowledge to produce free-thinking individuals capable of logic and reason.

Our schools supplant logic and reason with emotion and animal instinct.
Wouldn't you say that most of the "agenda" that troubles most of us is really driven by the Teacher's Union and not necessarily "the government?"

The "Prussian model" that you've attempted to ascribe here is a bit inaccurate. Friedrich Wilhelm August Froebel, who created the "modern" school system and coined the term "kindergarten" (children's garden" - hardly a militaristic ideal) was indeed German, but not Prussian. The Prussian militarism that you appear to dread was a product of the Teutonic Knights and the 1,000 year long German/Prussian expansion into Eastern Europe.

Froebel was a Thuringian (central Germany today, the "West" of his time) - in a completely different country from Prussia in the 1840's with a different outlook, generally speaking. Thuringia was a "hotbed" of Lutheran Evangelicalism. Essentially, they were the "Christian Fundamentalists" of their time in Europe.

[Grasshopper]

Wouldn't you say that most of the "agenda" that troubles most of us is really driven by the Teacher's Union and not necessarily "the government?"

The "Prussian model" that you've attempted to ascribe here is a bit inaccurate. Friedrich Wilhelm August Froebel, who created the "modern" school system and coined the term "kindergarten" (children's garden" - hardly a militaristic ideal) was indeed German, but not Prussian. The Prussian militarism that you appear to dread was a product of the Teutonic Knights and the 1,000 year long German/Prussian expansion into Eastern Europe.

Froebel was a Thuringian (central Germany today, the "West" of his time) - in a completely different country from Prussia in the 1840's with a different outlook, generally speaking. Thuringia was a "hotbed" of Lutheran Evangelicalism. Essentially, they were the "Christian Fundamentalists" of their time in Europe.

Good point.

[Rico]

I have a question. Where do you guys learn all this stuff and how can you remember it in such detail so easily? Y'all must be some serious book geeks. :D

[pelathais]

I have a question. Where do you guys learn all this stuff and how can you remember it in such detail so easily? Y'all must be some serious book geeks. :D
I just remembered where the word "kindergarten" came from and I have some "helps" with the details when I'm on the correct PC.

For example, I couldn't think of Froebel's name at that very moment, but I remembered "kindergarten" and that Erwin Rommel came from the same part of Germany as the inventor of kindergarten. I had "remembered" that Rommel, the famous general had been raised in a region known for its pacifism. And viola! I had a mini essay about Thuringia.

However, in composing the "essay" I concluded that I was mistaken about Rommel (he was from Wurrtemberg - clear the other side of Bavaria). Yet I could have sworn that he was from Saxony or had ties to that central region. So, this part I will keep secret lest the veneer of my mystique tarnish.

[Rico]

I just remembered where the word "kindergarten" came from and I have some "helps" with the details when I'm on the correct PC.

For example, I couldn't think of Froebel's name at that very moment, but I remembered "kindergarten" and that Erwin Rommel came from the same part of Germany as the inventor of kindergarten. I had "remembered" that Rommel, the famous general had been raised in a region known for its pacifism. And viola! I had a mini essay about Thuringia.

However, in composing the "essay" I concluded that I was mistaken about Rommel (he was from Wurrtemberg - clear the other side of Bavaria). Yet I could have sworn that he was from Saxony or had ties to that central region. So, this part I will keep secret lest the veneer of my mystic tarnish.

Ok. I guess my next question is where did you learn where the word "kindergarten" came from? I mean, I've never thought to search something like that out, and if I had, I'd probly only remember that it was German. See where I am coming from?

[pelathais]

Ok. I guess my next question is where did you learn where the word "kindergarten" came from? I mean, I've never thought to search something like that out, and if I had, I'd probly only remember that it was German. See where I am coming from?
I don't remember exactly. I think it was shortly after I got out of kindergarten myself that someone pointed out what the word meant. I had an aunt who was a school teacher and she was probably exasperated hearing us say "kindygarden," so she may have supplied the original explanation for me.

The rest I picked up by arguing politics all the time.

[Nina]

I just remembered where the word "kindergarten" came from and I have some "helps" with the details when I'm on the correct PC.

For example, I couldn't think of Froebel's name at that very moment, but I remembered "kindergarten" and that Erwin Rommel came from the same part of Germany as the inventor of kindergarten. I had "remembered" that Rommel, the famous general had been raised in a region known for its pacifism. And viola! I had a mini essay about Thuringia.

However, in composing the "essay" I concluded that I was mistaken about Rommel (he was from Wurrtemberg - clear the other side of Bavaria). Yet I could have sworn that he was from Saxony or had ties to that central region. So, this part I will keep secret lest the veneer of my mystique tarnish.

I feel like I'm sitting at the feet of a genius.
Aren't most geniuses nutty? :bliss:bliss

[SDG]

Nice, touching anecdote? Yes. :thumbsup :girlyluv

Encouragement towards deeper spirituality and humility? Yes. :thumbsup :praying

On topic? No. :nah :hijacked

I like the bumper sticker that says, "As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in school."

Glad someone saw the connection.

Carry on, Carlito.

[OP_Carl]

Wouldn't you say that most of the "agenda" that troubles most of us is really driven by the Teacher's Union and not necessarily "the government?"

The "Prussian model" that you've attempted to ascribe here is a bit inaccurate. Friedrich Wilhelm August Froebel, who created the "modern" school system and coined the term "kindergarten" (children's garden" - hardly a militaristic ideal) was indeed German, but not Prussian. The Prussian militarism that you appear to dread was a product of the Teutonic Knights and the 1,000 year long German/Prussian expansion into Eastern Europe.

Froebel was a Thuringian (central Germany today, the "West" of his time) - in a completely different country from Prussia in the 1840's with a different outlook, generally speaking. Thuringia was a "hotbed" of Lutheran Evangelicalism. Essentially, they were the "Christian Fundamentalists" of their time in Europe.

You are addressing an unrelated issue. I don't "dread" Prussian militarism. The structure model of our government schools is called "the Prussian system" accurately. I recommend that you study the history of the creation of the modern school structure model a bit further.

Here, READ THIS FOR STARTERS. (http://www.sntp.net/education/school_state_3.htm)

"Why were the public schools ever established? Did the private sector fail to set up schools or set up too few of them? Were large segments of society barred from obtaining education? Was the education of poor quality? The answer to the last three questions is no. The public schools were not established to make up for any deficiency in people's ability to learn to read, write, do arithmetic, and acquire knowledge of other subjects. The government schools were set up for another purpose entirely. "

'In 1910 Ernst Troeltsch pointed out the obvious: "The school organization parallels that of the army, the public school corresponds to the popular army." The German philosopher Johann Fichte was a key contributor to the formation of the German school system. It was Fichte who said that the schools "must fashion the person, and fashion him in such a way that he simply cannot will otherwise than what you wish him to will."

Importantly, American advocates of compulsory state schooling observed the Prussian system, became enamored of it, and adopted it as their model. As former teacher John Taylor Gatto writes:

"A small number of very passionate American ideological leaders visited Prussia in the first half of the 19th century; fell in love with the order, obedience, and efficiency of its education system; and campaigned relentlessly thereafter to bring the Prussian vision to these shores. Prussia's ultimate goal was to unify Germany; the Americans' was to mold hordes of immigrant Catholics to a national consensus based on a northern European cultural model. To do that, children would have to be removed from their parents and from inappropriate cultural influences."

Gatto emphasizes how the Prussian model set the standard for educational systems right up to the present. "The whole system was built on the premise that isolation from first-hand information and fragmentation of the abstract information presented by teachers would result in obedient and subordinate graduates, properly respectful of arbitrary orders," he writes. He says the American educationists imported three major ideas from Prussia. The first was that the purpose of state schooling was not intellectual training but the conditioning of children "to obedience, subordination, and collective life." Thus, memorization outranked thinking. Second, whole ideas were broken into fragmented "subjects" and school days were divided into fixed periods "so that self-motivation to learn would be muted by ceaseless interruptions." Third, the state was posited as the true parent of children. All of this was done in the name of a scientific approach to education, although, Gatto says, "no body of theory exists to accurately define the way children learn, or what learning is of most worth.'

[OP_Carl]

Everybody is too busy playing with the newly-minted Dr. Vaughn to play in this sandbox, huh?