R-e-s-p-e-c-t

[RevBuddy]

R-E-S-P-E-C-T

Yes, just like the popular hit by Aretha Franklin, R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

Respect: esteem for or a sense of worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality
or ability or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality
or ability (i.e., I have great respect for his judgment.)

We, Pentecostal pastors, evangelists and ministers, by example, are among the very worst at showing even a modicum of respect for one another. Whether we are in the pulpit, in personal conversation or on the Internet defending our point of view, we have become attack dogs lunging at our perceived ideological and doctrinal enemies’ throats to silence their silly and clearly unbiblical ideas or thoughts. It seems the objective is to ridicule, denigrate and embarrass without regard (respect) to feelings, and without respect to the possibility that these “unwashed” could have ideas or thoughts with merit.

Respect: deference to a right, privilege, privileged position, or someone or something
considered to have certain rights or privileges, proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgement (i.e., respect for another’s right to an opinion; to show respect
for an opposing position; respect for the senior or more experienced.)

Of course, we would NEVER use these tactics with saints, guests or visitors. Oh no, with these, our interaction requires respect, even deference. “You’re going to miss this Sunday? Oh, ok…we’ll be praying for you,” says Pastor Smith to his major contributing saint. It would NEVER enter his mind to say, “Are you stupid? You’ve missed several Sundays already. I’m sorry, but you and your family must be in service this Sunday!” No way!

But in communicating with our “brother,” that is a whole different situation. When it comes to our brother, we MUST maintain our reputation for holding the line on ___________ (fill in the blank with truth, doctrine, holiness, standards, one god, Jesus name, water baptism, speaking in other tongues, holy living, etc., etc., etc.). Everyone we know must understand our higher spiritual position on holiness, standards, biblical truths, personal hygiene (just kidding, but it has come up before!) and whether our organization is the REAL church of the Living God. In our own minds, we have become Elijah under the Juniper tree, viewing ourselves as the “last one holding to His revealed Word” and the “last one who has the insight and wisdom to articulate His Will” to the masses of misinformed, unspiritual ministers, who are clearly incapable of grasping even the most elemental of biblical principles. As such, we become the unyielding, disrespectful, arrogant, and infallible oracles of God’s truths, principles and tenets. And if many of us were honest with ourselves, we would acknowledge that many of our beliefs and positions have not be adequately researched PERSONALLY to ensure ourselves that we are on solid biblical and doctrinal ground.

The Internet makes this phenomenon worse. Behind our strange avatar and cute user id, we are essentially anonymous, acting as the only voice of reason in a crowd of loose, unbelieving, unholy and essentially disabled preachers who, by their unfounded and misguided ideas, are driving the Pentecostal movement into the ground. We say dumb things because no one knows us. We say harsh and offensive things because we can be. We are snide and aggressive, angry voices, set at liberty to abuse, denigrate and offend at will. Even those, who hold positions not unlike our own, are not safe from our wrathful attacks. The major goals is “to win” and do so at all cost - to the point of resorting to personal affront, hurts and offenses. The forum arena has become a bloody place. Brother confronts brother. Brother slams his brother’s idea, not because he would behave this way if they were together in personal conversation, but because now, he doesn’t have to look in his brother’s eyes, because now, he doesn’t have to observe his brother’s facial expressions or reaction to his pointed attacks, because now, he really doesn’t have to respect his brother. After all, that “guy or gal” is not a real person, just an avatar and user id…that’s all. Let’s move forward, gain as much ground as possible and leave no survivors. Wrapped in our Internet “cloak of invisibility,” we takes on all comers, laugh at long-held personal beliefs and reduce the opposition (the enemy, really) to insignificance. Isn’t that the idea after all?

I have come to realize I am not immune from this “Holier than Thou” syndrome. And by that, I don’t mean holier in the sense of standards, etc. This syndrome is the spirit of King Saul. King Saul is right because he is king! And it’s good to be the king! This syndrome deals with a perfectionist spirit and an “I’m always right all the time” attitude, coupled with the communications skills to put anyone in their place. I’ve learned to give as well as take. I’m building up considerable immunity from second thoughts, conviction over thoughtless words or having sympathy or compassion for my opponent. Every opposing view can be defeated by MY superior logic, MY overwhelming abilities to express and MY skill in relegating these opposing views to their rightful place in the ash heap. MY actions are justified by MY inherent righteousness. After all, it is the Internet, and I’ve decided to treat these Internet encounters just like PAC MAN. I just eat up as many “dots” as I can in the limited time I have. Remember, the purpose behind all spiritual discussion is to WIN.

We’ve even developed our own code words, “3 steppers, 1 steppers, etc.” Pretty silly, isn’t it when you stop and think about it? Why, because it reduces the biblical arguments down to our terms. This really helps a lot. We don’t have to view our enemies as people! Oh no, they are just UPCers…or just ALJCers…or just WWPFers… no more, no less. Just as soon as we can categorize their ideas, the quicker they can be coded into the particular box I want them in. Once that is accomplished, they have no hope. They lose by being who they are!! They are coded, “3 stepper.” They are coded “1 stepper.” We won by default. It’s ingenious! It really is!

Respect: to refrain from intruding upon or interfering with (i.e., to respect a person’s beliefs)
to relate or have a reference to (i.e., in respect of one’s stand)

Lack of respect. As ministers, we are so good at disrespect. We hold a higher esteemed office. We are men of God. Because we believe our position to be without error, your position, if differing in any respect from ours, is faulty at best and heresy at worst. I have come to realize (and it has taken some time) that I can respect your position, idea or spiritual belief without having to endorse or promote it. In other words, respect is NOT dependent upon agreement. In legislative bodies, these words are often heard, “I yield to my esteemed (respected) colleague.” In doing so, the speaker does not yield his principled position to his colleague, just the floor, and that only temporarily. We, Pentecostal ministers, must somehow learn how to respect one another while discussing the eternal issues of His Word. This respect must come, not from our mind, but from our hearts. If God is capable of loving this world so much that He was willing to offer His Son a ransom for their sins, and I believe His is. Then, we must be willing to love, appreciate and respect others in the same limitless measure. To not do so is to purposely and egregiously violate His Word.

“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 1 Chronicles 7:14

I realize that Scripture is subject to many interpretations. And those interpretations must be disciplined and in keeping with original language context and intent. And having said that, can we not, as Holy Ghost-filled ministers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, humble ourselves, pray for His guidance and will in our lives and determine to cease the overly aggressive, often attacking manner in which we communicate with each other? If I can control my pride through humility and prayer, I can adjust both my spirit and my actions. I gain two glorious benefits if I do – forgiveness and healing.

“Why can’t we all just get along?” Rodney King

I understand Rodney King is not a character study in righteousness, but in his fifteen minutes of fame, he did manage to leave us with one profound question. The question has been the brunt of jokes and, to a large extent, has become a cliché. But, if we push our bias aside and look at the question in a very childlike way, the only answer possible becomes obvious – “We should get along and we should do it respectfully.”

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” Voltaire

[StMark]

Who wrote this ???

[clgustaveson]

Who wrote this ???

Since it is not stated I would assume the poster.

[StMark]

Since it is not stated I would assume the poster.

That's what i thougth but wanted to be sure

[1Corinth2v4]

I remember those songs back in my carnal days!:bolt

[clgustaveson]

Lol if not then he has some splaining to do!

[jaxfam6]

Buddy,

Thank you. I appreciate your words. I hope that in the past I have not offended and judged, which I am sure I possibly have. I hope I have tried to respect others opinions and ideas.
I understand that desire to win and be right. I understand that drive to prove others wrong. I have at times been very guilty of this.
I pray that in the present and future I am not so quick to condemn. I have always had a burden for groups to get along. I have never understood the seperation and the lines that have been drawn. I have prayed for and worked towards trying to be understanding and forgiving of others. I have tried to be compassionate to others since God has been compassionate to me. I have failed at times I am sure but I have tried.
I pray in the future that when that ugly beast raises its head I will be able to remember your admonition.
I don't know about some others but I want to get along.

[Rico]

R-E-S-P-E-C-T

Yes, just like the popular hit by Aretha Franklin, R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

Respect: esteem for or a sense of worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality
or ability or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality
or ability (i.e., I have great respect for his judgment.)

We, Pentecostal pastors, evangelists and ministers, by example, are among the very worst at showing even a modicum of respect for one another. Whether we are in the pulpit, in personal conversation or on the Internet defending our point of view, we have become attack dogs lunging at our perceived ideological and doctrinal enemies’ throats to silence their silly and clearly unbiblical ideas or thoughts. It seems the objective is to ridicule, denigrate and embarrass without regard (respect) to feelings, and without respect to the possibility that these “unwashed” could have ideas or thoughts with merit.

Respect: deference to a right, privilege, privileged position, or someone or something
considered to have certain rights or privileges, proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgement (i.e., respect for another’s right to an opinion; to show respect
for an opposing position; respect for the senior or more experienced.)

Of course, we would NEVER use these tactics with saints, guests or visitors. Oh no, with these, our interaction requires respect, even deference. “You’re going to miss this Sunday? Oh, ok…we’ll be praying for you,” says Pastor Smith to his major contributing saint. It would NEVER enter his mind to say, “Are you stupid? You’ve missed several Sundays already. I’m sorry, but you and your family must be in service this Sunday!” No way!

But in communicating with our “brother,” that is a whole different situation. When it comes to our brother, we MUST maintain our reputation for holding the line on ___________ (fill in the blank with truth, doctrine, holiness, standards, one god, Jesus name, water baptism, speaking in other tongues, holy living, etc., etc., etc.). Everyone we know must understand our higher spiritual position on holiness, standards, biblical truths, personal hygiene (just kidding, but it has come up before!) and whether our organization is the REAL church of the Living God. In our own minds, we have become Elijah under the Juniper tree, viewing ourselves as the “last one holding to His revealed Word” and the “last one who has the insight and wisdom to articulate His Will” to the masses of misinformed, unspiritual ministers, who are clearly incapable of grasping even the most elemental of biblical principles. As such, we become the unyielding, disrespectful, arrogant, and infallible oracles of God’s truths, principles and tenets. And if many of us were honest with ourselves, we would acknowledge that many of our beliefs and positions have not be adequately researched PERSONALLY to ensure ourselves that we are on solid biblical and doctrinal ground.

The Internet makes this phenomenon worse. Behind our strange avatar and cute user id, we are essentially anonymous, acting as the only voice of reason in a crowd of loose, unbelieving, unholy and essentially disabled preachers who, by their unfounded and misguided ideas, are driving the Pentecostal movement into the ground. We say dumb things because no one knows us. We say harsh and offensive things because we can be. We are snide and aggressive, angry voices, set at liberty to abuse, denigrate and offend at will. Even those, who hold positions not unlike our own, are not safe from our wrathful attacks. The major goals is “to win” and do so at all cost - to the point of resorting to personal affront, hurts and offenses. The forum arena has become a bloody place. Brother confronts brother. Brother slams his brother’s idea, not because he would behave this way if they were together in personal conversation, but because now, he doesn’t have to look in his brother’s eyes, because now, he doesn’t have to observe his brother’s facial expressions or reaction to his pointed attacks, because now, he really doesn’t have to respect his brother. After all, that “guy or gal” is not a real person, just an avatar and user id…that’s all. Let’s move forward, gain as much ground as possible and leave no survivors. Wrapped in our Internet “cloak of invisibility,” we takes on all comers, laugh at long-held personal beliefs and reduce the opposition (the enemy, really) to insignificance. Isn’t that the idea after all?

I have come to realize I am not immune from this “Holier than Thou” syndrome. And by that, I don’t mean holier in the sense of standards, etc. This syndrome is the spirit of King Saul. King Saul is right because he is king! And it’s good to be the king! This syndrome deals with a perfectionist spirit and an “I’m always right all the time” attitude, coupled with the communications skills to put anyone in their place. I’ve learned to give as well as take. I’m building up considerable immunity from second thoughts, conviction over thoughtless words or having sympathy or compassion for my opponent. Every opposing view can be defeated by MY superior logic, MY overwhelming abilities to express and MY skill in relegating these opposing views to their rightful place in the ash heap. MY actions are justified by MY inherent righteousness. After all, it is the Internet, and I’ve decided to treat these Internet encounters just like PAC MAN. I just eat up as many “dots” as I can in the limited time I have. Remember, the purpose behind all spiritual discussion is to WIN.

We’ve even developed our own code words, “3 steppers, 1 steppers, etc.” Pretty silly, isn’t it when you stop and think about it? Why, because it reduces the biblical arguments down to our terms. This really helps a lot. We don’t have to view our enemies as people! Oh no, they are just UPCers…or just ALJCers…or just WWPFers… no more, no less. Just as soon as we can categorize their ideas, the quicker they can be coded into the particular box I want them in. Once that is accomplished, they have no hope. They lose by being who they are!! They are coded, “3 stepper.” They are coded “1 stepper.” We won by default. It’s ingenious! It really is!

Respect: to refrain from intruding upon or interfering with (i.e., to respect a person’s beliefs)
to relate or have a reference to (i.e., in respect of one’s stand)

Lack of respect. As ministers, we are so good at disrespect. We hold a higher esteemed office. We are men of God. Because we believe our position to be without error, your position, if differing in any respect from ours, is faulty at best and heresy at worst. I have come to realize (and it has taken some time) that I can respect your position, idea or spiritual belief without having to endorse or promote it. In other words, respect is NOT dependent upon agreement. In legislative bodies, these words are often heard, “I yield to my esteemed (respected) colleague.” In doing so, the speaker does not yield his principled position to his colleague, just the floor, and that only temporarily. We, Pentecostal ministers, must somehow learn how to respect one another while discussing the eternal issues of His Word. This respect must come, not from our mind, but from our hearts. If God is capable of loving this world so much that He was willing to offer His Son a ransom for their sins, and I believe His is. Then, we must be willing to love, appreciate and respect others in the same limitless measure. To not do so is to purposely and egregiously violate His Word.

“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 1 Chronicles 7:14

I realize that Scripture is subject to many interpretations. And those interpretations must be disciplined and in keeping with original language context and intent. And having said that, can we not, as Holy Ghost-filled ministers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, humble ourselves, pray for His guidance and will in our lives and determine to cease the overly aggressive, often attacking manner in which we communicate with each other? If I can control my pride through humility and prayer, I can adjust both my spirit and my actions. I gain two glorious benefits if I do – forgiveness and healing.

“Why can’t we all just get along?” Rodney King

I understand Rodney King is not a character study in righteousness, but in his fifteen minutes of fame, he did manage to leave us with one profound question. The question has been the brunt of jokes and, to a large extent, has become a cliché. But, if we push our bias aside and look at the question in a very childlike way, the only answer possible becomes obvious – “We should get along and we should do it respectfully.”

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” Voltaire


Wow. Now this is what I'd call some good internet preaching! I don't care who wrote it! I'm not a preacher but whoever wrote this has hit the nail right on the head for all of us, myself included.

[StillStanding]

I have a special calling to judge folks. When you are called of God, it trumps respect! :D

[RevBuddy]

Who wrote this ???

Buddy Buie, Monroe, Louisiana

[Cindy]

Whew, I'm not a preacher. But wow RevBuddy. I find myself asking the Lord to give me a right heart and mind. And being what I call a "right fighter" doesn't make you win very many battles. And boy is it humbling as a christian to apologize to someone.

I will be saving your post to read from time to time.

[StMark]

Buddy Buie, Monroe, Louisiana


Very well written (maybe I should take lessons? :happydance)


Sometimes I wonder if instead of the world envading and destroying us, as a movement we are devouring and destroying one another within. AND, It's not the saints doing it! Where I live, Ministers I know have taken notice of what the end result of this brings. We are living the outcome of it!

[StillStanding]

Very well written (maybe I should take lessons? :happydance)


Sometimes I wonder if instead of the world envading and destroying us, as a movement we are devouring one another within. AND, It's not the saints doing it!
:eek:

[Cindy]

:eek:

Yep he actually typed it. :reaction

[StMark]

:eek:


What's so alarming about what I said PM ???


BTW, I added more to it

[Mrs. LPW]

Excellent post, Rev

[RevBuddy]

Very well written (maybe I should take lessons? :happydance)


Sometimes I wonder if instead of the world envading and destroying us, as a movement we are devouring and destroying one another within. AND, It's not the saints doing it! Where I live, Ministers I know have taken notice of what the end result of this brings. We are living the outcome of it!

Wonder no more, it is true. And certainly there are satanic forces attempting to influence the Church and its constituency...but how many times are we faced with internal confusion, failure, strive and brother-on-brother offenses, broken relationships, split churches and troubles with organization?

I may not win the argument or debate, but my priority is in seeing Him face to face. Paul, a strong personality, by the way, had a great outlook:

"To live is Christ, to die is gain."

[StMark]

Wonder no more, it is true. And certainly there are satanic forces attempting to influence the Church and its constituency...but how many times are we faced with internal confusion, failure, strive and brother-on-brother offenses, broken relationships, split churches and troubles with organization?

I may not win the argument or debate, but my priority is in seeing Him face to face. Paul, a strong personality, by the way, had a great outlook:

"To live is Christ, to die is gain."


My question is, when will we ever learn? Aren't there any lessons from history that show what power grabbing, jockeying for positions, trying to control and destroy one another,etc. Many of us have witnessed first hand what the end result of this has been and how it will totally destroy so much good.
A lot of younger preachers are saying they want no part of this. Maybe that's the good news of it.

[Mrs. LPW]

My question is, when will we ever learn? Aren't there any lessons from history that show what power grabbing, jockeying for positions, trying to control and destroy one another,etc. Many of us have witnessed first hand what the end result of this has been and how it will totally destroy so much good.
A lot of younger preachers are saying they want no part of this. Maybe that's the good news of it.

I think it's safe to say, mankind are slow learners. Not church world only, but mankind as a whole.
I also think it's safe to say that no, some will never learn. Some will though. I have learned.

[StMark]

I think it's safe to say, mankind are slow learners. Not church world only, but mankind as a whole.
I also think it's safe to say that no, some will never learn. Some will though. I have learned.


what have you learned?

[RevBuddy]

My question is, when will we ever learn? Aren't there any lessons from history that show what power grabbing, jockeying for positions, trying to control and destroy one another,etc. Many of us have witnessed first hand what the end result of this has been and how it will totally destroy so much good.
A lot of younger preachers are saying they want no part of this. Maybe that's the good news of it.

If "To err is human, to forgive divine," is in fact, true, then I'm not optimistic that we will ever learn from many, very serious, self-inflicted disasters. Unfortunately, I, too, have been "front stage" to observe the terrible damage that can be done by a failure to reflect Jesus Christ.

Young preachers must quickly learn this critical lesson. If not, they will be susceptible to the same carnal, self-serving behavior and actions. Quite frankly, past church leadership, at all levels, has not stepped up to communicate this message.

[StillStanding]

I find it interesting that some will "fight 'till the death" to preserve their reputation even on issues that they secretly have personal doubts about!

"I was wrong" is the hardest sentence a preacher/pastor can utter! Same for regular folks too! :)

[Mrs. LPW]

what have you learned?

I don't have the time to even begin to say!

[Rico]

I find it interesting that some will "fight 'till the death" to preserve their reputation even on issues that they secretly have personal doubts about!

"I was wrong" is the hardest sentence a preacher/pastor can utter! Same for regular folks too! :)

The good lookin fat guy in IN says, AMEN!

[RevBuddy]

I find it interesting that some will "fight 'till the death" to preserve their reputation even on issues that they secretly have personal doubts about!

"I was wrong" is the hardest sentence a preacher/pastor can utter! Same for regular folks too! :)

Pride is a powerful human emotion. I have taught and preached about this subject at length over the years, but I'm not sure that I completely understand the forces that are at work, when I started to say,"I was wrong, and I apologize for offending you with my words."

Some of the time, I choke a little with the beginning clause, "I was wro...." :tissue

[StMark]

If "To err is human, to forgive divine," is in fact, true, then I'm not optimistic that we will ever learn from many, very serious, self-inflicted disasters. Unfortunately, I, too, have been "front stage" to observe the terrible damage that can be done by a failure to reflect Jesus Christ.

Young preachers must quickly learn this critical lesson. If not, they will be susceptible to the same carnal, self-serving behavior and actions. Quite frankly, past church leadership, at all levels, has not stepped up to communicate this message.


And that is the juncture we are at at this very moment! Some young preachers will fall prey to the same traps of seeking affirmation and power. Others are learning and determinded they will not make the same mistakes of the past. I hope they'll stick to it and that it's not just a passing feeling due to the results of the present

[StMark]

I find it interesting that some will "fight 'till the death" to preserve their reputation even on issues that they secretly have personal doubts about!

"I was wrong" is the hardest sentence a preacher/pastor can utter! Same for regular folks too! :)



how did you know that some preachers preach certain things that they secretly have doubts about ??????

[StillStanding]

how did you know that some preachers preach certain things that they secretly have doubts about ??????

:toofunny I've got connections! :D

[StMark]

:toofunny I've got connections! :D



Details and examples please - Thanks

[Rico]

:toofunny I've got connections! :D

Sounds to me like you are connected to at least a little bit of common sense! (I only said a little bit 'cause I don't want you to get a big head and think you got it all figured out.) :)

[StillStanding]

Details and examples please - Thanks

I'll give you one!

My BIL was a pastor of a UPCI church which ran about 150 or so, and he preached hard on standards and would debate with me at family gatherings if it was brought up.

He left his church and moved to another city. The next thing you know my sis was cutting her hair, wearing make-up and pants! When I asked him about it, he said he never really believed the standards. He preached standards hard to appease the older church members and other area pastors. He had to preach hard to gain the affirmation of his fellow comrades.

I was shocked because he really sounded convincing to me when I would visit his church on occasion!

I know of others, but I'll stop there! :)

[StMark]

I'll give you one!

My BIL was a pastor of a UPCI church which ran about 150 or so, and he preached hard on standards and would debate with me at family gatherings if it was brought up.

He left his church and moved to another city. The next thing you know my sis was cutting her hair, wearing make-up and pants! When I asked him about it, he said he never really believed the standards. He preached standards hard to appease the older church members and other area pastors. He had to preach hard to gain the affirmation of his fellow comrades.

I was shocked because he really sounded convincing to me when I would visit his church on occasion!

I know of others, but I'll stop there! :)


Yea, It happens for sure. There is a lot of peer pressure in the Brotherhood, Pianoman. I bet most of us who were raised as PKs could tell a lot LOL!

[Rico]

I'll give you one!

My BIL was a pastor of a UPCI church which ran about 150 or so, and he preached hard on standards and would debate with me at family gatherings if it was brought up.

He left his church and moved to another city. The next thing you know my sis was cutting her hair, wearing make-up and pants! When I asked him about it, he said he never really believed the standards. He preached standards hard to appease the older church members and other area pastors. He had to preach hard to gain the affirmation of his fellow comrades.

I was shocked because he really sounded convincing to me when I would visit his church on occasion!

I know of others, but I'll stop there! :)

I've got one, but it isn't really related to standards as much as it related to your comment about preachers not being able to admit when they are wrong.

After I left the UC congregation, I found myself in a church that had much looser standards. In fact, I do not remember ever hearing even one message preached on clothing while I was there. There were platform standards, however.

Because of all the things I had drilled into my head about other churches going to hell for not believing things the way they had been taught at the UC church, I was in agony, believing that I had made a mistake and was on my way to hell, etc. Oddly enough, there was one thing I could say about my ex pastor, and that was that he would never say that God told him to tell me something unless God had actually told him. I had enough confidence in him as a man of God that I began to pray and ask God to speak to him concerning the decision I had made to leave. I was desperately seeking some sort of confirmation from God that I had made the right decision.

Several months passed and I finally gathered up enough courage to see my ex pastor. Without revealing what it was I asked Him about, I asked my ex-pastor if the Lord had been dealing with him about telling me something I needed to know. I told him that I knew he would never give me a Thus Saith The Lord word, unless God had actually told him to say it. He told me that God had been dealing with him about me and felt that God wanted to give him a message for me, but he was afraid to ask God what that message was.

At that instant I realized there was no possible way for him be able to be used of God in the way I had asked. For him to tell me that it was ok for me to have left his church for one that didn't believe the same as his did would be the same thing as him admitting he was wrong about some of the things he preached. There was no way that would ever happen.

[StillStanding]

Oneness Pentecost would look totally different if everyone was transparent about their true beliefs! Peer pressure will never allow this to happen.

[RevBuddy]

I'll give you one!

My BIL was a pastor of a UPCI church which ran about 150 or so, and he preached hard on standards and would debate with me at family gatherings if it was brought up.

He left his church and moved to another city. The next thing you know my sis was cutting her hair, wearing make-up and pants! When I asked him about it, he said he never really believed the standards. He preached standards hard to appease the older church members and other area pastors. He had to preach hard to gain the affirmation of his fellow comrades.

I was shocked because he really sounded convincing to me when I would visit his church on occasion!

I know of others, but I'll stop there! :)

Sorry to hear this. Ministry has a its very core the assumption of honesty, integrity and heart-felt trust in the Spirit of the Lord to give both inspiration and anointing. I am always afraid of evolving ministry...it begs the question, "What foundation are you on?"

Lives and eternal destinies lie in the balance when a confused ministry can only produce an uncertain sound...

[Scott Hutchinson]

A great minister from the south wrote this thread.Great job REVBUDDY.

[steve p]

This is absolutely the best thread I've had opportunity to view since I signed up with AFF. Humbling....

Blessings!

[Bro-Larry]

Buddy Buie, Monroe, Louisiana

RevBuddy, Your post read my mail. thank you.

Aren't you a friend of Nathan Robinson?

[RevBuddy]

RevBuddy, Your post read my mail. thank you.

Aren't you a friend of Nathan Robinson?

I sure am, even though I haven't seen him since a wedding in Houston last year...

...are you a Texan?

[Raven]

Buddy Buie, Monroe, Louisiana

Excellent post, RevBuddy! One of the best ever on this forum.

Raven

[CC1]

Bro. Buie,

Lots of good words and thoughts in your post.

However I do want to take exception with one thing. I don't think the shorthand you see on forums like "3 stepper", "1 steper", etc are done to demean or depersonify people. It is just done as a matter of convenience to shorten the time needed to type posts.

That kind of shorthand is common to just about every forum no matter the subject of that forum. I don't frequent mnay forums but I do look in on four or five to do with video production and motorcycles (two of my interests) and they all have their own shorthand for things.

However this exception i am taking certainly does not change the bulk of your post and the point you are making.

[Bro-Larry]

I sure am, even though I haven't seen him since a wedding in Houston last year...

...are you a Texan?

Yes, Nathan and I drove to S'port many years ago and met you at a restaurant. That was back in the days of CB radios. I'm telling our ages. LOL

[RevBuddy]

Bro. Buie,

Lots of good words and thoughts in your post.

However I do want to take exception with one thing. I don't think the shorthand you see on forums like "3 stepper", "1 steper", etc are done to demean or depersonify people. It is just done as a matter of convenience to shorten the time needed to type posts.

That kind of shorthand is common to just about every forum no matter the subject of that forum. I don't frequent mnay forums but I do look in on four or five to do with video production and motorcycles (two of my interests) and they all have their own shorthand for things.

However this exception i am taking certainly does not change the bulk of your post and the point you are making.

Thanks for your comments. I understand your point about the shorthand...but you make an assumption that everyone might not agree to...that the shorthands, "3 stepper" or "1 stepper," have the same definitions to all who use them.

As for me, these are oversimplifications and do a disservice to discussions about the plan of salvation and an indepth analysis of it...

[RevBuddy]

Yes, Nathan and I drove to S'port many years ago and met you at a restaurant. That was back in the days of CB radios. I'm telling our ages. LOL

Wow! Great...I'm in Monroe now...and it's great to hear from you...

[CC1]

Thanks for your comments. I understand your point about the shorthand...but you make an assumption that everyone might not agree to...that the shorthands, "3 stepper" or "1 stepper," have the same definitions to all who use them.

As for me, these are oversimplifications and do a disservice to discussions about the plan of salvation and an indepth analysis of it...

A perfect example of your point is our simplification of the terms "PCI view" vs. "PAJC view".

We use the term "PCI" to signify those that believe one is "saved" at repentance and accepting Christ's work on Calvary in ones life and the term "PAJC" to signify those that believe salvation is a three step process involving repentance, baptism in water in Jesus name, and the infilling of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

The truth of the matter is that only some of the PCI believed the "one step" salvational doctrine. The percentage is in dispute and no doubt was significant but nevertheless a significant number of the PCI brethern were also "3 steppers" like virtually all of the PAJC.

To our point while those of us involved in these discusions for a long period of time know that context many newbies do not and could be "miseducated", as our President would say, about the PCI.

[CC1]

Wow! Great...I'm in Monroe now...and it's great to hear from you...

Are you preaching at one of those great exUPC lib churches there?:happydance

[RevCDP]

I agree wholeheartedly with what RevBuddy is saying. It's sad when a so-called "minister" can treat the saint or visitor with such deference and respect, but can be downright nasty towards a fellow minister with whom he disagrees. I wish I could say I've never seen this phenomenon before...I really with I could say that...

As the old song says, "They Will Know We Are Christians By Our Love." The "they" in this song refers to both the unsaved that we are trying to win and the groups of saints we are ministering to. How would it look to a saint to see two ministers deriding each other's views publicly? When ministry criticizes ministry in front of the laity, it breeds distrust in ALL ministers. But perhaps we ministers are careful to only criticize our brethren privately. Doesn't it still have a profound effect on our respective ministries and the extent that the Holy Ghost is able to move? I have to believe that it does, and I'll give a simple example for it:

Pure water can still move through a partially clogged pipe, but it will no longer be pure, as it will pick up residues from the clogging agent. Pure water through a clean pipe is the most refreshing, tastes better, and moves more quickly. If we want the Holy Ghost to flow in our services and our lives, let's make sure our pipes are clean. :thumbsup

[OneAccord]

R-E-S-P-E-C-T

Yes, just like the popular hit by Aretha Franklin, R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

Respect: esteem for or a sense of worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality
or ability or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality
or ability (i.e., I have great respect for his judgment.)

We, Pentecostal pastors, evangelists and ministers, by example, are among the very worst at showing even a modicum of respect for one another. Whether we are in the pulpit, in personal conversation or on the Internet defending our point of view, we have become attack dogs lunging at our perceived ideological and doctrinal enemies’ throats to silence their silly and clearly unbiblical ideas or thoughts. It seems the objective is to ridicule, denigrate and embarrass without regard (respect) to feelings, and without respect to the possibility that these “unwashed” could have ideas or thoughts with merit.

Respect: deference to a right, privilege, privileged position, or someone or something
considered to have certain rights or privileges, proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgement (i.e., respect for another’s right to an opinion; to show respect
for an opposing position; respect for the senior or more experienced.)

Of course, we would NEVER use these tactics with saints, guests or visitors. Oh no, with these, our interaction requires respect, even deference. “You’re going to miss this Sunday? Oh, ok…we’ll be praying for you,” says Pastor Smith to his major contributing saint. It would NEVER enter his mind to say, “Are you stupid? You’ve missed several Sundays already. I’m sorry, but you and your family must be in service this Sunday!” No way!

But in communicating with our “brother,” that is a whole different situation. When it comes to our brother, we MUST maintain our reputation for holding the line on ___________ (fill in the blank with truth, doctrine, holiness, standards, one god, Jesus name, water baptism, speaking in other tongues, holy living, etc., etc., etc.). Everyone we know must understand our higher spiritual position on holiness, standards, biblical truths, personal hygiene (just kidding, but it has come up before!) and whether our organization is the REAL church of the Living God. In our own minds, we have become Elijah under the Juniper tree, viewing ourselves as the “last one holding to His revealed Word” and the “last one who has the insight and wisdom to articulate His Will” to the masses of misinformed, unspiritual ministers, who are clearly incapable of grasping even the most elemental of biblical principles. As such, we become the unyielding, disrespectful, arrogant, and infallible oracles of God’s truths, principles and tenets. And if many of us were honest with ourselves, we would acknowledge that many of our beliefs and positions have not be adequately researched PERSONALLY to ensure ourselves that we are on solid biblical and doctrinal ground.

The Internet makes this phenomenon worse. Behind our strange avatar and cute user id, we are essentially anonymous, acting as the only voice of reason in a crowd of loose, unbelieving, unholy and essentially disabled preachers who, by their unfounded and misguided ideas, are driving the Pentecostal movement into the ground. We say dumb things because no one knows us. We say harsh and offensive things because we can be. We are snide and aggressive, angry voices, set at liberty to abuse, denigrate and offend at will. Even those, who hold positions not unlike our own, are not safe from our wrathful attacks. The major goals is “to win” and do so at all cost - to the point of resorting to personal affront, hurts and offenses. The forum arena has become a bloody place. Brother confronts brother. Brother slams his brother’s idea, not because he would behave this way if they were together in personal conversation, but because now, he doesn’t have to look in his brother’s eyes, because now, he doesn’t have to observe his brother’s facial expressions or reaction to his pointed attacks, because now, he really doesn’t have to respect his brother. After all, that “guy or gal” is not a real person, just an avatar and user id…that’s all. Let’s move forward, gain as much ground as possible and leave no survivors. Wrapped in our Internet “cloak of invisibility,” we takes on all comers, laugh at long-held personal beliefs and reduce the opposition (the enemy, really) to insignificance. Isn’t that the idea after all?

I have come to realize I am not immune from this “Holier than Thou” syndrome. And by that, I don’t mean holier in the sense of standards, etc. This syndrome is the spirit of King Saul. King Saul is right because he is king! And it’s good to be the king! This syndrome deals with a perfectionist spirit and an “I’m always right all the time” attitude, coupled with the communications skills to put anyone in their place. I’ve learned to give as well as take. I’m building up considerable immunity from second thoughts, conviction over thoughtless words or having sympathy or compassion for my opponent. Every opposing view can be defeated by MY superior logic, MY overwhelming abilities to express and MY skill in relegating these opposing views to their rightful place in the ash heap. MY actions are justified by MY inherent righteousness. After all, it is the Internet, and I’ve decided to treat these Internet encounters just like PAC MAN. I just eat up as many “dots” as I can in the limited time I have. Remember, the purpose behind all spiritual discussion is to WIN.

We’ve even developed our own code words, “3 steppers, 1 steppers, etc.” Pretty silly, isn’t it when you stop and think about it? Why, because it reduces the biblical arguments down to our terms. This really helps a lot. We don’t have to view our enemies as people! Oh no, they are just UPCers…or just ALJCers…or just WWPFers… no more, no less. Just as soon as we can categorize their ideas, the quicker they can be coded into the particular box I want them in. Once that is accomplished, they have no hope. They lose by being who they are!! They are coded, “3 stepper.” They are coded “1 stepper.” We won by default. It’s ingenious! It really is!

Respect: to refrain from intruding upon or interfering with (i.e., to respect a person’s beliefs)
to relate or have a reference to (i.e., in respect of one’s stand)

Lack of respect. As ministers, we are so good at disrespect. We hold a higher esteemed office. We are men of God. Because we believe our position to be without error, your position, if differing in any respect from ours, is faulty at best and heresy at worst. I have come to realize (and it has taken some time) that I can respect your position, idea or spiritual belief without having to endorse or promote it. In other words, respect is NOT dependent upon agreement. In legislative bodies, these words are often heard, “I yield to my esteemed (respected) colleague.” In doing so, the speaker does not yield his principled position to his colleague, just the floor, and that only temporarily. We, Pentecostal ministers, must somehow learn how to respect one another while discussing the eternal issues of His Word. This respect must come, not from our mind, but from our hearts. If God is capable of loving this world so much that He was willing to offer His Son a ransom for their sins, and I believe His is. Then, we must be willing to love, appreciate and respect others in the same limitless measure. To not do so is to purposely and egregiously violate His Word.

“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 1 Chronicles 7:14

I realize that Scripture is subject to many interpretations. And those interpretations must be disciplined and in keeping with original language context and intent. And having said that, can we not, as Holy Ghost-filled ministers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, humble ourselves, pray for His guidance and will in our lives and determine to cease the overly aggressive, often attacking manner in which we communicate with each other? If I can control my pride through humility and prayer, I can adjust both my spirit and my actions. I gain two glorious benefits if I do – forgiveness and healing.

“Why can’t we all just get along?” Rodney King

I understand Rodney King is not a character study in righteousness, but in his fifteen minutes of fame, he did manage to leave us with one profound question. The question has been the brunt of jokes and, to a large extent, has become a cliché. But, if we push our bias aside and look at the question in a very childlike way, the only answer possible becomes obvious – “We should get along and we should do it respectfully.”

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” Voltaire

Thank you, RevBuddy, for a timely reminder of what it means to be a Christian. And, Lord, help me to be a true reflection of your heart and charactor.

[RevBuddy]

AFF...let's revisit this important issue...our interpersonal relationship...and their direct affects on our posting...I believe this should be a continuing discussion...and reassessing our behaviors and attitudes...

...what say ye?...the membership at large....

[RevBuddy]

This discussion can be an offshoot of the "Can We Work on This?" thread...