Body Language....Womens hair

[Praxeas]

This is from a website on body langauge

Women

Women are socially permitted to wear a much wider range of styles, probably to attract men (and compete with other women in this).
Long hair frames the face and may partially cover it, teasing about the beauty behind this curtain. Particularly when covering the eyes, long hair over the face provides a barrier behind which the woman can hide, perhaps when she has lower confidence or self-esteem.


When women cut their hair short, it can indicate a desire to be male, like a man or perhaps to be unattractive to men. It may also be a rebellion against womanhood, for example when they have been mistreated by other women when they were young.


http://changingminds.org/techniques/body/parts_body_language/hair_body_language.htm



Interesting...author must be an Ultra Con

[StMark]

This is interesting Prax


what is the church background of the person who wrote this?(if any)

[TRFrance]

Well, that does seem to line up with scripture.

Paul made it pretty clear.
Nature tells us God long hair is for women, and short hair for men.

[Praxeas]

Business consultants
http://syque.com/index.htm

[StMark]

what faith are these people ?

[Encryptus]

This is from a website on body langauge

Women

Women are socially permitted to wear a much wider range of styles, probably to attract men (and compete with other women in this).
Long hair frames the face and may partially cover it, teasing about the beauty behind this curtain. Particularly when covering the eyes, long hair over the face provides a barrier behind which the woman can hide, perhaps when she has lower confidence or self-esteem.


When women cut their hair short, it can indicate a desire to be male, like a man or perhaps to be unattractive to men. It may also be a rebellion against womanhood, for example when they have been mistreated by other women when they were young.


http://changingminds.org/techniques/body/parts_body_language/hair_body_language.htm



Interesting...author must be an Ultra Con


VERY different definition of short hair than most have here. Would think they are talking butch, if "long" hair covers the face !!!

[Praxeas]

what faith are these people ?
It's NOT a religious website.

[StMark]

It's NOT a religious website.


WOW! well that speaks volumes!!!


That ought to make the far left liberals on AFF think

[Rico]

WOW! well that speaks volumes!!!


That ought to make the far left liberals on AFF think

Think about what, St Mark? It says "when women cut their hair short", not "when women cut their hair". We all agree that women should have long hair and men should have short hair. We just disagree on long meaning uncut.

[StillStanding]

If one looks hard enough, one can find someone or some article that appears to affirm their point of view!

[Encryptus]

Once again the article's definition of short is butch. Literally like a man.
Not enough hair to cover EYES

[Pressing-On]

Once again the article's definition of short is butch. Literally like a man.
Not enough hair to cover EYES

I was getting my taxes done years ago at an H&R block. The tax preparer told the next person he would be right with them. He said, "I'll be with you next, sir."

The lady, dressed in postal garb said, "I'm a Ma'am."

She had that type of haircut. Creepy!!

[steve p]

What are the correct lengths that determine ones standing?

Is there an actual measurement for men or women?

Thanks and Blessings!!!

[Praxeas]

Years ago a "friend" of the family had a butch...I found out she was a lesbian later (I was young and naive)...

We went to get pizza and the guy behind the counter called her "sir"

[Praxeas]

Perhaps some of you are confused....but the thread is about BODY LANGUAGE and what people in that area say about a woman cutting her hair SHORT

[steve p]

Perhaps some of you are confused....but the thread is about BODY LANGUAGE and what people in that area say about a woman cutting her hair SHORT

Who determines what is "short"?

[nahkoe]

Nature tells us God long hair is for women, and short hair for men.

Can you explain this please? How does nature tell us this? Does men's hair stop growing while still short?

[Praxeas]

Who determines what is "short"?
psychologist? I don't know. It's NOT a religious website lol

[steve p]

Ron ,,,what kind of Guitar are you playing on Could it Be?

[Praxeas]

lol...you'd have to ask Ron, but I can ask him for you. :-)

[steve p]

psychologist? I don't know. It's NOT a religious website lol

Who in the apostolic churches determine what is correct hair length etc...
Thanks!

[Praxeas]

This is NOT about being apostolic. People, one last time...this is about body language. This is not about what is short hair by apostolics

[Rico]

Can you explain this please? How does nature tell us this? Does men's hair stop growing while still short?

That is a reference to a scripture found in the Bible where Paul is asking the question;

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
1 Cor 11:14 (KJV)


People have used this scripture to argue some things such as keeping our hair cut short enough so that it follows our natural hairline. I have also seen others argue that it means we should naturally just know that we need to keep our hair etc. (our and we referring to men)

[steve p]

uh ok.....sorry for asking a question.....
Blessings still!!!

[Praxeas]

You're asking the wrong person...I really don't care and this thread is not about what Apostolics teach. You are welcome to ask, but it just does not really have anything to do with this thread. The others here apparently thought it did too lol

[steve p]

(afraid to comment) lol

[Praxeas]

I just thought such a statement might normally come from a conservative of the religious sort when in fact it came from a business success oriented website and body langauge....there are people that work in the area of body language like psychologists etc etc....just found it ironic. This was not a religious opinion

[steve p]

Im still wondering what the other guitar you play besides the T5 is...

Blessings!

[Praxeas]

Who in the apostolic churches determine what is correct hair length etc...
Thanks!
Steve...Im not saying you can't ask, but you keep asking me and I am just not interested in that topic. I started a thread that deals with body language and hair from a NON Apostolic religious standpoint. Im just reminding everyone this is not about Apostolic and hair length

[Praxeas]

Im still wondering what the other guitar you play besides the T5 is...

Blessings!
lol....like I said, you have to ask RON...I can ask him for you when I see him next

[Hoovie]

This is from a website on body langauge

Women

Women are socially permitted to wear a much wider range of styles, probably to attract men (and compete with other women in this).
Long hair frames the face and may partially cover it, teasing about the beauty behind this curtain. Particularly when covering the eyes, long hair over the face provides a barrier behind which the woman can hide, perhaps when she has lower confidence or self-esteem.


When women cut their hair short, it can indicate a desire to be male, like a man or perhaps to be unattractive to men. It may also be a rebellion against womanhood, for example when they have been mistreated by other women when they were young.


http://changingminds.org/techniques/body/parts_body_language/hair_body_language.htm



Interesting...author must be an Ultra Con




What I have known and observed is becoming official... Sweet!

[steve p]

lol....like I said, you have to ask RON...I can ask him for you when I see him next

Ohhhhhhhhh I thought you were Ron.....
My mistake....and.......by the way....I wont ask you again about the hair thingy.......LOL
Blessings!

[Praxeas]

Ohhhhhhhhh I thought you were Ron.....
My mistake....and.......by the way....I wont ask you again about the hair thingy.......LOL
Blessings!
Thanks. I can ask him though. His other guitar he specifically wanted to use. He says it rocks.

[nahkoe]

That is a reference to a scripture found in the Bible where Paul is asking the question;

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
1 Cor 11:14 (KJV)


People have used this scripture to argue some things such as keeping our hair cut short enough so that it follows our natural hairline. I have also seen others argue that it means we should naturally just know that we need to keep our hair etc. (our and we referring to men)

I know the Scripture used for it, but I've never understood it. Nature doesn't make men's hair stop growing at a certain point. And it doesn't make women's grow longer than men's. Just interests me, that's all.

I do cut my hair, but it's halfway down my back. I know most consider that long, but probably a higher percentage here would consider it short. lol

[Praxeas]

I know the Scripture used for it, but I've never understood it. Nature doesn't make men's hair stop growing at a certain point. And it doesn't make women's grow longer than men's. Just interests me, that's all.

I do cut my hair, but it's halfway down my back. I know most consider that long, but probably a higher percentage here would consider it short. lol
I think by nature womens hair is usually thicker and more abundant.

[nahkoe]

Long hair frames the face and may partially cover it, teasing about the beauty behind this curtain. Particularly when covering the eyes, long hair over the face provides a barrier behind which the woman can hide, perhaps when she has lower confidence or self-esteem.

I know how I wear my hair is directly related to how I'm doing emotionally at the time. I do hide behind it sometimes, not so much anymore. I've also gone through times when I've worn it up all the time and NEVER down. I didn't want to attract attention at all from men at that time. Right now, it's down most of the time, with the front pulled up in a clip to keep it out of my face. This is my "happy place" hair. lol Well, mostly at least.

[staysharp]

I know the Scripture used for it, but I've never understood it. Nature doesn't make men's hair stop growing at a certain point. And it doesn't make women's grow longer than men's. Just interests me, that's all.

I do cut my hair, but it's halfway down my back. I know most consider that long, but probably a higher percentage here would consider it short. lol

Biblical scholars remain perplexed with these texts. They consider think parts of the texts may be missing and Paul may have been answering a letter from the Corinthian Elders and quoting that letter.

That scripture could easily be translated...Nature itself teaches us that it is not a shame...man and women's hair grows long together. Nature teaches us that man's hair grows long too. Great men of the bible had long hair. God accepted long hair on men as a point of consecration through the Nazarite vow.

Paul himself took the Nazarite vow in Acts 19. Paul had long hair and many cannot truly discern these texts. Satan has used our misunderstanding to create division among the body.

[Hoovie]

I think by nature womens hair is usually thicker and more abundant.

...I remember Newman a a few others making a case that there are as many bald women as there are bald men...

[staysharp]

I think by nature womens hair is usually thicker and more abundant.

I know many women who wear wigs because their hair is so thin. Several ladies in my church can't grow hair and many of them are loosing their hair too. This is just plain silly to think God somehow favors long haired women over short.

It's a matter of the heart. If a woman wants to look like a man and her motive is wicked, God will deal with that himself. So too if a man seeks to be effeminate.

[Praxeas]

...I remember Newman a a few others making a case that there are as many bald women as there are bald men...
but for what reasons? Cancer treatment? Intentional? Hormone deficiencies?

[Hoovie]

but for what reasons? Cancer treatment? Intentional? Hormone deficiencies?

au natural

[Praxeas]

I know many women who wear wigs because their hair is so thin. Several ladies in my church can't grow hair and many of them are loosing their hair too. This is just plain silly to think God somehow favors long haired women over short.

It's a matter of the heart. If a woman wants to look like a man and her motive is wicked, God will deal with that himself. So too if a man seeks to be effeminate.
Please don't put words in my mouth and I will treat you fine....I NEVER said one word about God favoring long haired women over short....

yes there are women with thinning hair....it's an abnormality....like men with too much estrogen growing breasts.

[Praxeas]

au natural
In other words intentional?

[Hoovie]

In other words intentional?


No. That they natually lose there hair (just like many men do)

au naturel Definition au na·tu·rel (ō nac̸h′ə rel′, -nat′yə-; Fr ō nȧ tü rel′)

1. in the natural state

2. naked

[Cindy]

No. That they natually lose there hair (just like many men do)

au naturel Definition au na·tu·rel (ō nac̸h′ə rel′, -nat′yə-; Fr ō nȧ tü rel′)

1. in the natural state

2. naked

:reaction

They're not bald they're naked.............:toofunny

[steve p]

:reaction

They're not bald they're naked.............:toofunny

(closing eyes!!):drama

[Hoovie]

:reaction

They're not bald they're naked.............:toofunny

oops! dar tis!

[Cindy]

Stephen said it first.

:razz

[Praxeas]

No. That they natually lose there hair (just like many men do)

au naturel Definition au na·tu·rel (ō nac̸h′ə rel′, -nat′yə-; Fr ō nȧ tü rel′)

1. in the natural state

2. naked
Just as many women as men eh? Id like to see that. However the reason for women loosing their hair is not inherit to being a woman anymore than a man growing breasts is to them

[AGAPE]

the good ole Bible's right hallelujah to the Lamb

[Cindy]

Just as many women as men eh? Id like to see that. However the reason for women loosing their hair is not inherit to being a woman anymore than a man growing breasts is to them

Whatchu talkin bout Willis?

[steve p]

Whatchu talkin bout Willis?

Dat's what I say!!!!!

[Praxeas]

Whatchu talkin bout Willis?
Ok...is it natural for men to grow breasts? I am hoping you two say no.

But some do in fact grow them. It's do to a hormone imbalance. Women lose their hair NOT because it's natural to women. Men lose their hair because it IS natural to them.

And I still want to see the stats that as many women are naturally bald as men

[Pragmatist]

but for what reasons? Cancer treatment? Intentional? Hormone deficiencies?

Heredity?

My mother, aunt, grandmother all have/had very thin, balding hair. The difference with women is because many times there hair is longer, the "combover" is more effective.

My mother has very thin hair and really needs a wig.

[Cindy]

Ok...is it natural for men to grow breasts? I am hoping you two say no.

But some do in fact grow them. It's do to a hormone imbalance. Women lose their hair NOT because it's natural to women. Men lose their hair because it IS natural to them.

And I still want to see the stats that as many women are naturally bald as men

Grow breast? Men are born with breast, the same as women. Men with an overabundance of estrogen can have larger breast than most.
Why do you think women don't lose they're hair naturally as you think men do?

[Pragmatist]

Think about what, St Mark? It says "when women cut their hair short", not "when women cut their hair". We all agree that women should have long hair and men should have short hair. We just disagree on long meaning uncut.

Yep, what Rico said. :)

[Steve Epley]

This is from a website on body langauge

Women

Women are socially permitted to wear a much wider range of styles, probably to attract men (and compete with other women in this).
Long hair frames the face and may partially cover it, teasing about the beauty behind this curtain. Particularly when covering the eyes, long hair over the face provides a barrier behind which the woman can hide, perhaps when she has lower confidence or self-esteem.


When women cut their hair short, it can indicate a desire to be male, like a man or perhaps to be unattractive to men. It may also be a rebellion against womanhood, for example when they have been mistreated by other women when they were young.


http://changingminds.org/techniques/body/parts_body_language/hair_body_language.htm



Interesting...author must be an Ultra Con


AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!

[SonsOfTheOil]

context of the text is a womans submission to her head (husband) religion took those scriptures and came up with women that cuts her hair goes to hell. what about women that are not in submission to their husbands, to God looks like a woman with her hair shaved off:)

[commonsense]

I also agree with the heredity factor. My hair is verrry thin on top,,,,male pattern baldness. (not lol) My mother had long hair and as she aged she had a teeny little scraggly bun. Likwise for my grandmother, extremely thin hair and worn in a teeny bun on top her head,
I have my hair cut jsut below chin length; if it gets longer it just emphasizes the thinning. I also have bangs since pulling back thin hair at crown in not very attractive.
My dad was bald , with the fringe on sides and back.
I didn't get the relatives that have long, thick, gorgeous hair..............

[Praxeas]

Grow breast? Men are born with breast, the same as women. Men with an overabundance of estrogen can have larger breast than most.
Why do you think women don't lose they're hair naturally as you think men do?
That is what I am saying. Most men don't grow beasts like women but some that have a hormone problem have noticeable breasts.

I already said why...when it happens it's due to a hormone problem that is not natural or does not show up until old age.

[Encryptus]

Only on AFF, click on a thread about Women's hair and land in a discussion about man breasts.

:reaction

[Praxeas]

Only on AFF, click on a thread about Women's hair and land in a discussion about man breasts.

:reaction
lol

[Cindy]

That is what I am saying. Most men don't grow beasts like women but some that have a hormone problem have noticeable breasts.

I already said why...when it happens it's due to a hormone problem that is not natural or does not show up until old age.

The hair part of the question Prax.
Why do you think women don't naturally go bald, but men do?

[Praxeas]

The hair part of the question Prax.
Why do you think women don't naturally go bald, but men do?
Im just saying it's a greater percentage with men and with women usually is the result of a hormone imbalance or something like that

One large scale study in Maryborough, in central Victoria (Australia) showed the prevalence of mid-frontal hair loss increases with age and affects 57% of women and 73.5% of men aged 80 and over. In the United States the figure is around 23% of men and 10% of women.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] Male pattern is characterized by hair receding from the lateral sides of the forehead, known as "receding hairline". Receding hairlines are usually seen in males above the ages of 25.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldness

[Encryptus]

The hair part of the question Prax.
Why do you think women don't naturally go bald, but men do?

Short answer- Testosterone level in men is one of the main causes of baldness

In men, for instance, there is a much higher level of testosterone than there is in women. In men the high level of testosterone makes them more prone to developing ‘male-patterned baldness’. This is something that women are not that prone to simply because of the fact that their level of testosterone is much lower.

Following is a little more detail


Now let us go a little deeper than simply making testosterone the cause of male-patterned baldness. This is because this hormone cannot directly be blamed. The main cause of male-patterned baldness is an enzyme known as ‘5 alpha-reductase’. However, it is this enzyme that is responsible for transforming testosterone into a chemical known as dihydrotestosterone (DHT).

It is this chemical that actually causes hair loss in men as they grow older.

[Cindy]

Im just saying it's a greater percentage with men and with women usually is the result of a hormone imbalance or something like that

One large scale study in Maryborough, in central Victoria (Australia) showed the prevalence of mid-frontal hair loss increases with age and affects 57% of women and 73.5% of men aged 80 and over. In the United States the figure is around 23% of men and 10% of women.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] Male pattern is characterized by hair receding from the lateral sides of the forehead, known as "receding hairline". Receding hairlines are usually seen in males above the ages of 25.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldness


But it's not hormonal with men? And which hormone or lack thereof causes baldness?

[TRFrance]

Well, that does seem to line up with scripture.

Paul made it pretty clear.
Nature tells us God long hair is for women, and short hair for men.

Can you explain this please? How does nature tell us this? Does men's hair stop growing while still short?

No, my sister. We know that men's hair doesn't stop growing while still short.

But to answer your question scripturally, look at what Paul said about the issue in 1 Cor 11: 14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
If you travel around the globe and look at the thousands of different cultures and subcultures around the world, it is almost a universally accepted practice that the women's hair will be longer than the men's. Do we think thats just by accident? I think not.

What Paul is saying in scripture there just pretty much confirms what we already see with our own eyes.

[Cindy]

Short answer- Testosterone level in men is one of the main causes of baldness

In men, for instance, there is a much higher level of testosterone than there is in women. In men the high level of testosterone makes them more prone to developing ‘male-patterned baldness’. This is something that women are not that prone to simply because of the fact that their level of testosterone is much lower.

Following is a little more detail


Now let us go a little deeper than simply making testosterone the cause of male-patterned baldness. This is because this hormone cannot directly be blamed. The main cause of male-patterned baldness is an enzyme known as ‘5 alpha-reductase’. However, it is this enzyme that is responsible for transforming testosterone into a chemical known as dihydrotestosterone (DHT).

It is this chemical that actually causes hair loss in men as they grow older.

Thank you. I finally got it.

[timlan2057]

I've always liked longer hair on a woman where it frames their face.

I don't like "butch" styles on women.

But boy, it's a loooong way from that article to a position of "uncut hair or hell."

"Ole Time Pentecost" has always used an association-type method to try and prop up extra-biblical positions.

I personally feel long hair on a woman is quite sexy.

So there you go.

I've associated long hair with sexuality so I guess that means that women should cut their hair short because some men associate long hair with the bedroom.

If the "proof by association" arguments proffered over the decades by ole time pentecostals have any merit at all ... then the women should start cutting their hair quite short.

[rgcraig]

Well, that does seem to line up with scripture.

Paul made it pretty clear.
Nature tells us long hair is for women, and short hair for men.
I've never understood this statement.

If men didn't cut their hair it'd be long too, so what does nature have to do with that?

What nature tells us is that men have beards if they don't shave and women don't (for the most part -LOL).

Hair would be long on men just as women's by nature!

[Praxeas]

But it's not hormonal with men? And which hormone or lack thereof causes baldness?
Yes it IS. But it's the MALE hormone that does it. When men grow larger breasts it's an abnormality involving estrogen I believe...I could be wrong

[Praxeas]

I've always liked longer hair on a woman where it frames their face.

I don't like "butch" styles on women.

But boy, it's a loooong way from that article to a position of "uncut hair or hell."

"Ole Time Pentecost" has always used an association-type method to try and prop up extra-biblical positions.

I personally feel long hair on a woman is quite sexy.

So there you go.

I've associated long hair with sexuality so I guess that means that women should cut their hair short because some men associate long hair with the bedroom.

If the "proof by association" arguments proffered over the decades by ole time pentecostals have any merit at all ... then the women should start cutting their hair quite short.
That article was not a religious article. It was not meant to prove uncut hair or hell

[TRFrance]

I've never understood this statement.

If men didn't cut their hair it'd be long too, so what does nature have to do with that?

What nature tells us is that men have beards if they don't shave and women don't (for the most part -LOL).

Hair would be long on men just as women's by nature!

What does nature have to do with it?
Well, what do you think the Apostle Paul meant when he made a similar statement in 1 Cor 11:14?

Anyway, Nahkoe asked me a similar question, and I've given my answer on that above (post #67 (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=479620&postcount=67)). Feel free to check it out if you like.

Take care.

[Rico]

Ok...is it natural for men to grow breasts? I am hoping you two say no.

But some do in fact grow them. It's do to a hormone imbalance. Women lose their hair NOT because it's natural to women. Men lose their hair because it IS natural to them.

And I still want to see the stats that as many women are naturally bald as men

It's also natural for fat guys to grow man-breasts. (I didn't know if b***s is ok to use here.)

[nahkoe]

What does nature have to do with it?
Well, what do you think the Apostle Paul meant when he made a similar statement in 1 Cor 11:14?

Anyway, Nahkoe asked me a similar question, and I've given my answer on that above (post #67 (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=479620&postcount=67)). Feel free to check it out if you like.

Take care.

I'm not satisfied with that answer. lol But, my books are all on their way to Texas so I can't look it up for myself right now.

If you want to use culture as proof of what you believe, you're welcome to. I can't though.

I'm going to guess this is a mistranslation of something that we're reading in English, or a misapplication of a translation. I am interested in seeing what it really says. After I get moved and settled I can look for myself, and after I get internet I can try to remember this thread exists and post what I discovered. I'll likely forget I even want to look this up though after I get moved. lol

If this is rambly, please forgive me. I've lost my brain cells in the water I was using to wash walls or something. Moving alone across country with wee 'uns is an experience I'm sure y'all just would beg to have if only you knew how completely delightful it really is. :tic (and everything is going absolutely SWIMMINGLY really! It's just "everything" is such an expansive list)

[Rico]

Yes it IS. But it's the MALE hormone that does it. When men grow larger breasts it's an abnormality involving estrogen I believe...I could be wrong

It could just be that they're fat, Bro.

[Praxeas]

NATURE

My NET bible commentary has this to say
Paul does not mean nature in the sense of "the natural world" or "Mother Nature." It denotes "the way things are" because of God's design.

What is God's design then for women?

One thing is notable...men under the law did not grow their hair long unless they were under a vow...with Absolom being an exception.

And apparently women let their hair grow long too....why? Is that a command under the law or is that just how women have been customarily for thousands of years?

Women in the bible are particularly mentioned in the NT with regards to braiding and ornaments....their hair was long enough to braid and this was common not only with the ROmans but the Jews as well (long hair)

[Praxeas]

Fausset

Shaved closely by men, worn long by women, in Egypt. The Hebrew wore long beards; the Egyptians only in mourning did so. At the same time the Hebrew kept the distinction of sexes by clipping the hair of men (though hardly so much as we do; Lev_10:6; Hebrew: "let not loose (the hair of) your heads," not "uncover," etc.), but not of women (1Co_11:6, etc.; Luk_7:38). The law forbad them to "round the corners of their heads, or mar the cornners of the beard"; for the Arabs in honour of the idol Orotal cut the hair from the temples in a circular form, and in mourning marred their beards (Lev_19:27; Jer_9:26 margin, Jer_48:37). Baldness, being often the result of leprosy, disqualified for the priesthood (Lev_21:20, Septuagint). (See BALDNESS.)

Absalom's luxuriant hair is mentioned as a sign of beauty, but was a mark of effeminacy; its weight perhaps was 20, not 200 shekels, the numeral resh (r) having by a copyist's error been substituted for kaph (k) (2Sa_14:26). Nazarites wore it uncut, a sign of humiliation and self-denial, at the same time of dedication of all the strength, of which hair was a token, to God (Num_6:5; Jdg_13:5; Jdg_16:17). Shaving the head was often practiced in fulfillment of a vow, as Paul did, the shaving being usually followed by a sacrifice in 30 days (Act_18:18); probably his vow was made in some sickness (Gal_4:13).

Easton
The Egyptians let the hair of their head and beard grow only when they were in mourning, shaving it off at other times. “So particular were they on this point that to have neglected it was a subject of reproach and ridicule; and whenever they intended to convey the idea of a man of low condition, or a slovenly person, the artists represented him with a beard.” Joseph shaved himself before going in to Pharoah (Gen_41:14). The women of Egypt wore their hair long and plaited. Wigs were worn by priests and laymen to cover the shaven skull, and false beards were common. The great masses of hair seen in the portraits and statues of kings and priests are thus altogether artificial.

Among the Greeks the custom in this respect varied at different times, as it did also among the Romans. In the time of the apostle, among the Greeks the men wore short hair, while that of the women was long (1Co_11:14, 1Co_11:15). Paul reproves the Corinthians for falling in with a style of manners which so far confounded the distinction of the sexes and was hurtful to good morals. (See, however, 1Ti_2:9, and 1Pe_3:3, as regards women.)


Among the Hebrews the natural distinction between the sexes was preserved by the women wearing long hair (Luk_7:38; Joh_11:2; 1Co_11:6), while the men preserved theirs as a rule at a moderate length by frequent clipping.
Baldness disqualified any one for the priest's office (Lev. 21).
Elijah is called a “hairy man” (2Ki_1:8) from his flowing locks, or more probably from the shaggy cloak of hair which he wore. His raiment was of camel's hair.
Long hair is especially noticed in the description of Absalom's person (2Sa_14:26); but the wearing of long hair was unusual, and was only practiced as an act of religious observance by Nazarites (Num_6:5; Jdg_13:5) and others in token of special mercies (Act_18:18).
In times of affliction the hair was cut off (Isa_3:17, Isa_3:24; Isa_15:2; Isa_22:12; Jer_7:29; Amo_8:10). Tearing the hair and letting it go disheveled were also tokens of grief (Ezr_9:3). “Cutting off the hair” is a figure of the entire destruction of a people (Isa_7:20). The Hebrews anointed the hair profusely with fragrant ointments (Rth_3:3; 2Sa_14:2; Psa_23:5; Psa_45:7, etc.), especially in seasons of rejoicing (Mat_6:17; Luk_7:46).

[Praxeas]

It could just be that they're fat, Bro.
Thats not what I am talking about. There is an abnormal condition with some men that they grow breasts...

[Rico]

NATURE

My NET bible commentary has this to say
Paul does not mean nature in the sense of "the natural world" or "Mother Nature." It denotes "the way things are" because of God's design.

What is God's design then for women?

One thing is notable...men under the law did not grow their hair long unless they were under a vow...with Absolom being an exception.

And apparently women let their hair grow long too....why? Is that a command under the law or is that just how women have been customarily for thousands of years?

Women in the bible are particularly mentioned in the NT with regards to braiding and ornaments....their hair was long enough to braid and this was common not only with the ROmans but the Jews as well (long hair)

If what you are saying is true, then why do so many orthodox Jewish men have such long hair growing down the side of their heads? I know it's because of that scripture that talks about not marring the sides of the beard, but it seems to contradict what you said in the bolded part. The part of their head that they let the hair grow long on doesn't look like their beards. It looks like the hair on the side of their heads.


http://judicial-inc.biz/_ecsta39.jpg

[Praxeas]

If what you are saying is true, then why do so many orthodox Jewish men have such long hair growing down the side of their heads? I know it's because of that scripture that talks about not marring the sides of the beard, but it seems to contradict what you said in the bolded part. The part of their head that they let the hair grow long on doesn't look like their beards. It looks like the hair on the side of their heads.


http://judicial-inc.biz/_ecsta39.jpg
Those are their side lockes. They clip the rest of their hair. but also I am not sure if they even clip those too. They do grow the side lockes long

[TRFrance]

I'm not satisfied with that answer. lol But, my books are all on their way to Texas so I can't look it up for myself right now.

If you want to use culture as proof of what you believe, you're welcome to. I can't though.

I'm going to guess this is a mistranslation of something that we're reading in English, or a misapplication of a translation. I am interested in seeing what it really says. After I get moved and settled I can look for myself, and after I get internet I can try to remember this thread exists and post what I discovered. I'll likely forget I even want to look this up though after I get moved. lol


Well, this has been a divisive issue for a lot of folks, so I'm actually going to try not to get bogged down in the doctrinal debate on it. This issue has been hashed and rehashed ad nauseam already on this forum and I'm not one to get antagonistic with folks over this issue.

However, to just respond to a few of your points above:

a...I'm not using culture as "proof" of anything.
I said that what I believed on that was based on scripture, and I quoted you the scripture. And scripture is enough by itself.
But I'm simply saying what we see in cultures worldwide is simply confirmation of what scripture says.

b... You're "going to guess" theres some mistranslation? (or a misapplication of a translation)?
I must say I find that intriguing.
If, as you yourself say,you haven't even looked into it yet, why would you be so quick to "guess" that? Is it because it doesn't fit into your preconceived thoughts on the issue?

Sister, if you're not satisfied with the answer, as you say, that's fine. At the end of the day, it is what it is, no matter what you or I think. I would just ask, though, that you would just allow the scripture to mean what it actually means, rather than try to make it mean what you'd prefer for it to mean.

c... Even if you haven't got your books with you, there are many online resources you can look at to see that there is no "mistranslation" at all.
The Greek word there is "phusis", which comes from a root word with means to beget, to spring up, to produce. Phusis is most commonly translated as 'nature' in the New Testament.
Here is an online breakdown of the meaning of phusis, including the way it is used all 14 times it appears in the NT.
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5449&t=kjv

(http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=11&verse=14&version=KJV#14)

[steve p]

See.....and I just asked a simple question....and now your talking about Hassidic Jews, hormones and men with womens parts.....and all I asked was who determined what was considered long and short.....LOL

[DanielR]

[/INDENT]If you travel around the globe and look at the thousands of different cultures and subcultures around the world, it is almost a universally accepted practice that the women's hair will be longer than the men's. Do we think thats just by accident? I think not.

What Paul is saying in scripture there just pretty much confirms what we already see with our own eyes.

So are you suggesting that Paul is saying that men need to have short hair just because that is the way the world system is?

[nahkoe]

Well, this has been a divisive issue for a lot of folks, so I'm actually going to try not to get bogged down in the doctrinal debate on it. This issue has been hashed and rehashed ad nauseam already on this forum and I'm not one to get antagonistic with folks over this issue.

Eh, wasn't trying to bring the divisive nature of this beast out. Just trying to understand how nature indicates this. And yeah, if you wanna meet someone tired of the division over Scripture, you'd be looking at her. I don't ask nearly the questions I have because of this. It's not worth it to me to seek differing points of view when they all eat each other for lunch.

However, to just respond to a few of your points above:

a...I'm not using culture as "proof" of anything.
I said that what I believed on that was based on scripture, and I quoted you the scripture. And scripture is enough by itself.
But I'm simply saying what we see in cultures worldwide is simply confirmation of what scripture says.

That's fine, you may do this. :) I am a little more difficult to get along with, I know.

b... You're "going to guess" theres some mistranslation? (or a misapplication of a translation)?
I must say I find that intriguing.
If, as you yourself say,you haven't even looked into it yet, why would you be so quick to "guess" that? Is it because it doesn't fit into your preconceived thoughts on the issue?

I tend to not go into study with *any* preconceived thoughts. Because nature has nothing to do with the length of hair of men or women, both will grow long if left to grow, something's not adding up. What that is, would take some time for me to figure out, and probably some consulting with others, much more educated than I am.

Sister, if you're not satisfied with the answer, as you say, that's fine. At the end of the day, it is what it is, no matter what you or I think. I would just ask, though, that you would just allow the scripture to mean what it actually means, rather than try to make it mean what you'd prefer for it to mean.

I do not try to make Scripture say what I'd prefer it to mean. I just can't do that.

c... Even if you haven't got your books with you, there are many online resources you can look at to see that there is no "mistranslation" at all.
The Greek word there is "phusis", which comes from a root word with means to beget, to spring up, to produce. Phusis is most commonly translated as 'nature' in the New Testament.
Here is an online breakdown of the meaning of phusis, including the way it is used all 14 times it appears in the NT.
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5449&t=kjv

(http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=11&verse=14&version=KJV#14)

Thanks. :) Even looking at that doesn't answer my questions about this verse, and what this means. This word has been translated as nature, natural, kind and mankind in the KJV. It leaves me curious as to what's really being said, that's all.

[TRFrance]

So are you suggesting that Paul is saying that men need to have short hair just because that is the way the world system is?
No. I'm not saying that at all.
I really don't even know where you're getting that from, since I said no such thing.

My words were pretty clear in that post.
If you don't understand it, feel free to go back and look again at what I said.

[DanielR]

No, my sister. We know that men's hair doesn't stop growing while still short.

But to answer your question scripturally, look at what Paul said about the issue in 1 Cor 11: 14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
If you travel around the globe and look at the thousands of different cultures and subcultures around the world, it is almost a universally accepted practice that the women's hair will be longer than the men's. Do we think thats just by accident? I think not.

What Paul is saying in scripture there just pretty much confirms what we already see with our own eyes.

So are you suggesting that Paul is saying that men need to have short hair just because that is the way the world system is?

No. I'm not saying that at all.
I really don't even know where you're getting that from, since I said no such thing.
My words were pretty clear in that post.
If you don't understand it, feel free to go back and look again at what I said.

It may not have been intentional, but you did elude to that thought.

[TRFrance]

It may not have been intentional, but you did elude to that thought.
Hardly.
No more than the Apostle Paul did in the text.

If you understand what Paul is saying in the verse in question, you'll understand what I meant. I was basically paraphrasing what Paul was essentially saying in that verse.

[staysharp]

Please don't put words in my mouth and I will treat you fine....I NEVER said one word about God favoring long haired women over short....

yes there are women with thinning hair....it's an abnormality....like men with too much estrogen growing breasts.

Not intentional, sorry you took offense.

[Praxeas]

It happens. Thanks for pointing out it was not intentional

[AmericanAngel]

cousin it.....speaks volumes.......:toofunny


1137

[StillStanding]

Well, that does seem to line up with scripture.

Paul made it pretty clear.
Nature tells us God long hair is for women, and short hair for men.


Paul was wrong, unless he meant 'current customs'.

How does nature teach long hair for women and short hair for men? Both men and women's hair will naturally grow long if left alone. If it were nature, mens hair would only grow to a short length.

One would be correct if they said, "Nature teaches us that men should have a beard and women are to be smooth faced".

[HeavenlyOne]

Paul was wrong, unless he meant 'current customs'.

How does nature teach long hair for women and short hair for men? Both men and women's hair will naturally grow long if left alone. If it were nature, mens hair would only grow to a short length.

One would be correct if they said, "Nature teaches us that men should have a beard and women are to be smooth faced".

Sometimes nature is wrong about that too....LOL!

[Pastor DTSalaz]

No reason can be given, in the nature of things, why the woman should wear long hair and the man not; but the custom prevails extensively everywhere, and nature, in all nations, has prompted to the same course. “Use is second nature;” but the usage in this case is not arbitrary, but is founded in an anterior universal sense of what is proper and right. A few, and only a few, have regarded it as comely for a man to wear his hair long. Albert Barnes

G5449 φύσις phusis
Total KJV Occurrences: 14
nature, 10
Rom_1:26, Rom_2:14, Rom_2:27, Rom_11:24 (2), 1Co_11:14, Gal_2:15, Gal_4:8, Eph_2:3, 2Pe_1:4
natural, 2
Rom_11:21, Rom_11:24
kind, 1
Jam_3:7
mankind, 1
Jam_3:7 (2)

Thayer Definition:
1) nature
1a) the nature of things, the force, laws, order of nature
1a) as opposed to what is monstrous, abnormal, perverse
1b) as opposed what has been produced by the art of man: the natural branches, i.e. branches by the operation of nature
1b) birth, physical origin
1c) a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature
1d) the sum of innate properties and powers by which one person differs from others, distinctive native peculiarities, natural characteristics: the natural strength, ferocity, and intractability of beasts

[Hoovie]

Think about what, St Mark? It says "when women cut their hair short", not "when women cut their hair". We all agree that women should have long hair and men should have short hair. We just disagree on long meaning uncut.

I agree. But I don't think we ALL agree on that.

[Hoovie]

Paul was wrong, unless he meant 'current customs'.

How does nature teach long hair for women and short hair for men? Both men and women's hair will naturally grow long if left alone. If it were nature, mens hair would only grow to a short length.

One would be correct if they said, "Nature teaches us that men should have a beard and women are to be smooth faced".

Two possibilities

1. Many men by nature loose their hair either partially or entirely.

2. It is the natural desire for woman to use her hair to attract, and beautify herself. It makes her glorious.

[1Corinth2v4]

http://changingminds.org/techniques/body/parts_body_language/hair_body_language.htm



Interesting...author must be an Ultra Con


Why must you automatically assume it's an Ultra Con?

Haven't you ever heard of Liberals or Moderates obeying biblical instruction?................oh.........wait....... ....I guess it was an Ultra Con :D






.

[HeavenlyOne]

Two possibilities

1. Many men by nature loose their hair either partially or entirely.

2. It is the natural desire for woman to use her hair to attract, and beautify herself. It makes her glorious.

So do many women, but I disagree that it's by nature. It mostly has to do with nutrition or genetics. ;)