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Rico
06-01-2008, 08:27 PM
Eph 2:20 (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;



The Lord has been dealing with me about this verse, particularly the part that says "and prophets". It's not that I believe I have learned all I am going to learn from studying the apostle's doctrines. I simple feel led to get a better understanding of the OT prophets. I know so little about them.

With that said, I have some questions for those of you who have studied the prophets.


How did you go about studying the prophets?
Where did you start?
How were you able to know if a prophecy was dealing only with Israel and not with the Church?
What measuring stick do you use to determine if your interpretation of what the prophets said is correct?


Confession time: My biggest fear is that I will end up like so many who study prophecy. Eventually those studies lead to end time prophecies and they become every flavor of end time prophecy nut case found under the Sun. I am crazy enough without adding prophecy as another reason for my being committed.


Thank you in advance for your help. :)

mizpeh
06-01-2008, 08:34 PM
The context of Eph 2:20 is the church or body of Christ. Maybe starting with the prophecies of the Messiah, the new covenant, and the acceptance of the Gentiles or anything relevant to the NT church might be appropriate.

Rico
06-01-2008, 08:44 PM
The context of Eph 2:20 is the church or body of Christ. Maybe starting with the prophecies of the Messiah, the new covenant, and the acceptance of the Gentiles or anything relevant to the NT church might be appropriate.

That's a good suggestion. I've done some studies on Messianic prophecies before. I am after something else though. I have heard some really good messages preached out of the OT prophets. They gave me the impression that the books of the prophets give excellent insight into the inner workings of God's mind. I believe the key to putting on the mind of Christ lies in understanding how God thinks; that is, as much as man is capable of understanding an infinite God. How does He reason? What process does He use in granting the term "holy" to something? That's the sort of stuff I am after. In that process, I know I will learn more about Messianic prophecy, but that isn't really my purpose in studying the prophets. :)

mizpeh
06-01-2008, 08:55 PM
That's a good suggestion. I've done some studies on Messianic prophecies before. I am after something else though. I have heard some really good messages preached out of the OT prophets. They gave me the impression that the books of the prophets give excellent insight into the inner workings of God's mind. I believe the key to putting on the mind of Christ lies in understanding how God thinks; that is, as much as man is capable of understanding an infinite God. How does He reason? What process does He use in granting the term "holy" to something? That's the sort of stuff I am after. In that process, I know I will learn more about Messianic prophecy, but that isn't really my purpose in studying the prophets. :)

His thought are higher than our thoughts..............


Why don't you seek the mind of Christ by following the example that Jesus left us? Study Jesus, His reactions, His attitude, His desires. You may have a difficult time understanding God the Father unless you study His attributes but Jesus is much more accessible to us in that He is God with us.

Job 33:6-7, 1 John 2:6, Rom 15:1-3, Phil 2:5-8, John 13:15, 1 Peter 2:21-22, Matt 16:24

Rico
06-01-2008, 09:08 PM
His thought are higher than our thoughts..............


Why don't you seek the mind of Christ by following the example that Jesus left us? Study Jesus, His reactions, His attitude, His desires. You may have a difficult time understanding God the Father unless you study His attributes but Jesus is much more accessible to us in that He is God with us.

Job 33:6-7, 1 John 2:6, Rom 15:1-3, Phil 2:5-8, John 13:15, 1 Peter 2:21-22, Matt 16:24

Sister, I've done loads of that kind of studying. I have always studied people's behaviour. It's one of those things I do. I've learned that I can tell a lot about someone's motives by their behaviour. I have learned about the Lord through studying His actions and responses to people in the Gospels and other areas of the NT. It's just that I have had that "and prophets" stuck in mind and spirit for quite some time, and the time has come to explore what "and prophets" can teach me about God. I am sure the journey will be a fascinating one. I just hope I don't end up caught in the trap of dealing with end time issues no one can really decipher.

mizpeh
06-01-2008, 09:16 PM
Okay, but remember there are many more prophets in the OT than the ones with their own books! Even John the Baptist was called a prophet.

Rico
06-01-2008, 09:31 PM
Okay, but remember there are many more prophets in the OT than the ones with their own books! Even John the Baptist was called a prophet.

Cool. I am going tomorrow to a Christian bookstore. Looking for some information on prophets is on my list. :)

Sister Alvear
06-01-2008, 09:39 PM
I believe in prophets...

Sam
06-01-2008, 10:17 PM
Isaiah has been called "the fifth Gospel" because of so many references to Jesus, His ministry, and His suffering and death.

When Jesus met up with a couple of disciples after His resurrection, Luke said that "beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." Luke 24:47

And Peter says that the Spirit of Christ within them who "testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow" 1 Peter 1:10-11


There is an article about Old Testament prophecy at
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=412

Dr. Vaughn
06-02-2008, 06:27 AM
Remember RICO, God never does ANYTHING without first reveailing it to his Prophets.. they are the great secret keepers of God

bkstokes
06-02-2008, 06:46 AM
Remember RICO, God never does ANYTHING without first reveailing it to his Prophets.. they are the great secret keepers of God

So who do you think is a prophet today (qualifier --he has to be alive)?

Dr. Vaughn
06-02-2008, 07:27 AM
So who do you think is a prophet today (qualifier --he has to be alive)?

Someone who is able with stunning detail to reveal the secrets of the heart as Jesus did with the woman at the well... that is a seer, a prophet.... someone who speaks by divine authority with unquestionable clarity

Sort of like this

Now, I see you keep sitting up in a bed; you just keep sitting... you can't sleep. You're not from here. I see you coming through some kind of a place where they're checking up on you or something, it's immigration. You're from Canada, Windsor, Ontario. Is that right? And you are an evangelist, a minister. Isn't that right? And your initial is J. W. and your name is Reed. J. W. Reed. I see it on that box sign there where you, see you taking up your mail. See? Well, you're going home to be well now.

or

You're not from here. You're a stranger here. You're Franklin, Ohio, is where you're from. That right? You're suffering with, It's a rectal or a fistula, the doctor says: fistula trouble: a growth on the--at the rectum. Got a wife, yes, she's with diabetes. When you go, lay hands on her and she'll get well too.
God Almighty Who rose up Jesus Christ, bless the people and bring these things to pass; in Jesus Christ's Name. Amen. God bless you. As you believe, so will it be.

or

God knows all about it. And you're not from here. You've come from somewhere where there's a lot of wheat, lot of wheat. I see you're going up in a airplane. You're looking out a window. You flew here, and you come from Oklahoma. Is that right? You're setting at a window looking out. All right. You're suffering with . Oh, it's a--it's an operation, and it's been in--in the stomach. And it was a cancer, and the doctor's just sewed you up, and the cancer's is setting--going into the liver. Is that right?

Or

Now, there sets a colored lady, setting right back there. She's got cancer too. Setting right back there, right over the top of that place. Stand up, lady. Isn't that right?
Oh, Father, in the Name of Your Son Jesus, Who's here to expose the devil and to make him an open shame. Satan, you know you can't hold these people. Come out of them, I adjure you by the Name of Jesus Christ, depart from these women, and leave them alone. Amen.


By they way there are over 40,000 of the above prophecies which never failed... not one time was the above referenced ministry ever called down publicly... not once did anyone in any of those meetings every claim nor say that he missed it....

You asked for my example of a true gift of prophecy,, that would be it.. agree or disagree.. I am simply posting some examples of a true gift of Prophecy

As far as your "qualifier" of him not being dead... I see no one alive with that specific gifting.. so thereore I have no other examples to reference

Rico
06-02-2008, 07:48 AM
If this thread turns into a Branham free for all I am going to get upset. Brother Vaugh, thank you for your comments. I don't agree with your sentiments, however. There is plenty God has done in my life without first revealing it to me through a prophet. Prophets are part of the Body for edification, not to direct the lives of people in the Church, in my opinion. In order for your comments to be correct, no one could do anything in the Lord without first hearing it from a prophet. I don't believe that, even for a second, except in the sense that Jesus is the Master Prophet and I rely upon Him for direction in this walk.

bkstokes
06-02-2008, 08:01 AM
If this thread turns into a Branham free for all I am going to get upset. Brother Vaugh, thank you for your comments. I don't agree with your sentiments, however. There is plenty God has done in my life without first revealing it to me through a prophet. Prophets are part of the Body for edification, not to direct the lives of people in the Church, in my opinion. In order for your comments to be correct, no one could do anything in the Lord without first hearing it from a prophet. I don't believe that, even for a second, except in the sense that Jesus is the Master Prophet and I rely upon Him for direction in this walk.

Amen Bro.

We have the spirit of prophecy in us now. For the Bible says that the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus -- Rev 19

bkstokes
06-02-2008, 08:05 AM
Shane

I think that if I would have known you (not that I know you now) before you went off on this Branham kick, that we would have gotten a long fine.

Dr. Vaughn
06-02-2008, 09:18 AM
Shane

I think that if I would have known you (not that I know you now) before you went off on this Branham kick, that we would have gotten a long fine.

No, I disagree brother.. if you knew me now.... outside of this forum.. you would love me to dear brother.. because as much as this my surprise you, I never mention William Branhams name hardly outside this discussion forum.... I have more Apostolic guys that preach for me.. and love to do it,, and they are treated like Gold.... my friends all know that "i'm out there" but yet it is an accepted truce that we never mention these things when together.....

When it boils down to it brother.... whether or not you believe William Branham was a prophet, I'm sure you could agree with me that

There is only ONE GOD
There is only ONE WAY to God, through our Lord JEsus Christ
Only one way to be saved Acts 2:38
Only one atoning blood sacrifice
The soon rapture of the bride (church)
The 2nd Coming
The destruction of sinners in hell
The eternal life of believers in Heaven

see anywhere there where we could fellowship?

StillStanding
06-02-2008, 09:23 AM
In church on Sunday, the guest preacher used the term, Prophe'lying'! :toofunny

Dr. Vaughn
06-02-2008, 10:18 AM
In church on Sunday, the guest preacher used the term, Prophe'lying'! :toofunny

Pianoman.. you will always find that those men who do not operate in such gifts will ALWAYS degrade those that do, for no obvious reasons.

Joelel
06-02-2008, 10:24 AM
Eph 2:20 (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;



The Lord has been dealing with me about this verse, particularly the part that says "and prophets". It's not that I believe I have learned all I am going to learn from studying the apostle's doctrines. I simple feel led to get a better understanding of the OT prophets. I know so little about them.

With that said, I have some questions for those of you who have studied the prophets.


How did you go about studying the prophets?
Where did you start?
How were you able to know if a prophecy was dealing only with Israel and not with the Church?
What measuring stick do you use to determine if your interpretation of what the prophets said is correct?


Confession time: My biggest fear is that I will end up like so many who study prophecy. Eventually those studies lead to end time prophecies and they become every flavor of end time prophecy nut case found under the Sun. I am crazy enough without adding prophecy as another reason for my being committed.


Thank you in advance for your help. :)

What bothers me most is,the apostles and prophets are the foundation of the church and Jesus the chief corner stone. There can't be a church without the apostles and prophets.The apostles are the ones who start assemblies and keep authority over the church. How can there be a church without the foundation.They have a work to do.The apostles also appointed the pastors over each assembly.Paul all though his letters wrote he was an apostle,but now days you can't tell people your an apostle or prophet because most people think your nuts and mock you to no end.

The best way to study the apostles and prophets is,jus go here and type in prophet and prophecy and prophecy and other words in connection.It will bring up all places the word is used in the bible.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/kjv/

This will give you meaning of words. Click on number by the word.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/poly/index.htm

Rico
06-30-2008, 04:34 PM
Well, so far I got through 1 and 2 Samuel, and I am in the Book of Jeremiah right now. Since I like to study behaviours, I am trying to look at this from the standpoint of God's behaviours and man's approach to God. I didn't really learn a whole lot reading about Samuel, but looking for clues in David's relationship with God has proven to be fruitful. Right now I am really just aiming towards getting through the reading of these books. Once I get through the reading part, I plan on actually studying things out more in depth. It's been such a long time since I read any of these books that it's like I am reading them for the first time. :)

Jack Shephard
06-30-2008, 04:42 PM
end time prophecy teacher are a dime a dozen. The prophetic gifts are to help edify the church or edify us. The endtime prophecy states what will be confirmed either by what Christ did back then in relation to the rapture or what He will do and what will happen. The prophetic gifts that edify confirm what did happen due to Christ or what Christ will do to,for,through us. I believe the five fold ministry verse you have used is not talking about teaching of the endtime some much as it is the use of revelation and knowledge from Jesus to edify us the church

Rico
06-30-2008, 04:46 PM
end time prophecy teacher are a dime a dozen. The prophetic gifts are to help edify the church or edify us. The endtime prophecy states what will be confirmed either by what Christ did back then in relation to the rapture or what He will do and what will happen. The prophetic gifts that edify confirm what did happen due to Christ or what Christ will do to,for,through us. I believe the five fold ministry verse you have used is not talking about teaching of the endtime some much as it is the use of revelation and knowledge from Jesus to edify us the church

Actually, I am not doing this to study endtime prophecy. In fact, I have every intention of avoiding that trap altogether. I am doing this more to learn about the nature of God than anything else. What makes Him tick, how far He lets His people go before He decides it's time for judgement, how those who have been successful at interacting with Him pulled it off, that sort of thing. All this endtime business is just a trap, as far as I am concerned.

Rico
06-30-2008, 04:48 PM
Ya know, it's funny how anytime the word "prophet" is mentioned so many people immediately think of endtime prophecy. Oh well. Guess that's an indicator of how we've been programmed to think.

Jack Shephard
06-30-2008, 04:52 PM
Actually, I am not doing this to study endtime prophecy. In fact, I have every intention of avoiding that trap altogether. I am doing this more to learn about the nature of God than anything else. What makes Him tick, how far He lets His people go before He decides it's time for judgement, how those who have been successful at interacting with Him pulled it off, that sort of thing. All this endtime business is just a trap, as far as I am concerned.

Agreed. End time prophecy is very important, but all I need to know is God is coming, be right or be left-behind. I have not studied the prophet books. But I have read through them. One thing I see is that when God is speaking through them He is very specific, IMO. It also seems that the prophet speaks in his own persona then suddenly it seems that God starts speaking. I think that a lot of the underlining in those books is that God is always speaking. Though at times we do not hear Him. Maybe we are not listening close enough or maybe He wants us to only hear specific things. But from what I see, and I could be wrong is the when He chooses to speak it is direct and specific. But the messenger is so much in the spirit that God can and does freely speak through them. It is almost as if the prophet's way of life is being in the spirit- it has become the persons lifestyle.

Rico
06-30-2008, 05:06 PM
Agreed. End time prophecy is very important, but all I need to know is God is coming, be right or be left-behind. I have not studied the prophet books. But I have read through them. One thing I see is that when God is speaking through them He is very specific, IMO. It also seems that the prophet speaks in his own persona then suddenly it seems that God starts speaking. I think that a lot of the underlining in those books is that God is always speaking. Though at times we do not hear Him. Maybe we are not listening close enough or maybe He wants us to only hear specific things. But from what I see, and I could be wrong is the when He chooses to speak it is direct and specific. But the messenger is so much in the spirit that God can and does freely speak through them. It is almost as if the prophet's way of life is being in the spirit- it has become the persons lifestyle.

I hear ya. I am sure some people are going to say I am looking to find out how far I can go before getting into trouble with God, but one of the things I would like to find out is what has to happen for God to reach that point where His mind switches gears from mercy to judgement. It may be one of those hidden secrets that God doesn't let us humans in on, but I'd like to know where He's at in His mind when that stick breaks the proverbial camel's back.

U376977
06-30-2008, 06:55 PM
Rico, Check out the book, The Hebrew Prophets. Look in Judaica because it was written from a Jewish perspective--not Christian. It is just what you write you are looking for. The author--name escapes me now but I can find it if you want it--writes about what motivated the prophets of the OT. And, of course, if you get at the prophets heart you will get at the mind of God. One scripture I think you should use as a foundation to your study that supports your reasoning from your first post is Eph. 3:5 "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit." Paul said that the knowledge of Christ was "now" revealed by the apostles AND prophets.
This is such a key to discerning true apostles and prophets. I believe we have them today--God placed them in the church and the church has not passed away (Eph. 4:11) and gave them as gifts to men---but I believe, based on Eph. 3:5, they will possess the knowledge of Jesus Christ. And will be able to preach and proclaim the doctrine of God (Titus 2:10). The good ol' "revelation of Jesus Christ" as we say. I think this is a minimum critera for a present day apostle or prophet--thus a Trinitarian could not be an apostle or prophet, in my opinion. Possibly called--but can never walk in the fullness of the office without the knowledge of Jesus Chirst. However, to be in an office of an apostle or prophet is quite a different thing then prophesying with a simple spiritual gift of prophesy. I think God could use anyone with the gift of prophesy. But all that prophesy are not a prophets or apostles.

Rico
06-30-2008, 07:04 PM
Rico, Check out the book, The Hebrew Prophets. Look in Judaica because it was written from a Jewish perspective--not Christian. It is just what you write you are looking for. The author--name escapes me now but I can find it if you want it--writes about what motivated the prophets of the OT. And, of course, if you get at the prophets heart you will get at the mind of God. One scripture I think you should use as a foundation to your study that supports your reasoning from your first post is Eph. 3:5 "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit." Paul said that the knowledge of Christ was "now" revealed by the apostles AND prophets.
This is such a key to discerning true apostles and prophets. I believe we have them today--God placed them in the church and the church has not passed away (Eph. 4:11) and gave them as gifts to men---but I believe, based on Eph. 3:5, they will possess the knowledge of Jesus Christ. And will be able to preach and proclaim the doctrine of God (Titus 2:10). The good ol' "revelation of Jesus Christ" as we say. I think this is a minimum critera for a present day apostle or prophet--thus a Trinitarian could not be an apostle or prophet, in my opinion. Possibly called--but can never walk in the fullness of the office without the knowledge of Jesus Chirst. However, to be in an office of an apostle or prophet is quite a different thing then prophesying with a simple spiritual gift of prophesy. I think God could use anyone with the gift of prophesy. But all that prophesy are not a prophets or apostles.

Thanks. I will look for it. I went to the Bible book store in this area, specifically looking for a book that deals just with the prophets. Unfortunately, I had no luck. The guy from the store even suggested I try their website because they are nationwide. Still no luck. I will do a search using the title you gave me. Thanks! :D

Bro-Larry
06-30-2008, 07:17 PM
His thought are higher than our thoughts..............


Why don't you seek the mind of Christ by following the example that Jesus left us? Study Jesus, His reactions, His attitude, His desires. You may have a difficult time understanding God the Father unless you study His attributes but Jesus is much more accessible to us in that He is God with us.

Job 33:6-7, 1 John 2:6, Rom 15:1-3, Phil 2:5-8, John 13:15, 1 Peter 2:21-22, Matt 16:24

Respectfully speaking Miz, If you are filled with the Spirit of Christ Jesus, then your thoughts should be on the same level, as His. We do have the mind of Christ.

In Isa 55:9 , God was addressing "the wicked and the unrighteous man". (vs 7)

I don't perceive you as being wicked or unrighteous.

jediwill83
06-30-2008, 07:21 PM
Really interesting thread cause its stuff I have tried to search for myself.My first 16 years growing up I never was exposed to anything dealing with the gift or the office of a prophet except like at campmeeting when I did go and hear Bro. T.W Barnes. Because my second pastor was from under the same pastor that"leeriness" kinda carried over.I came in contact with some at a non UPC church and it scared me because of the manner in which they presented themselves....it was all calling out for judgement....

jediwill83
06-30-2008, 07:30 PM
It wasnt until several years later at another church I went up to get prayed for....scared to death....afraid all my failures and mistakes would be revealed....even with that fear I still went because I was so tired of the uncertainty and fear in my life....He either loved me or He didnt...He was either a God of mercy or He wasnt....to make a long story short it was one of the top 3 mind blowing and uplifting encounters of my life.7 years later God is STILL bringing those things to pass.

jediwill83
06-30-2008, 07:37 PM
It wasnt telling me about how my back hurt....or that I had poptarts for breakfast but it was MINISTRY!Not a sideshow!We need more Godly men and women who minister....TRULY minister in that way.The Spirit that came with it was so loving...all I could do is stand there with hands raised and weep.But anyways...sorry for the multiple posts.On cell again.

ManOfWord
06-30-2008, 07:43 PM
Here's the deal for me......I used to know an awful lot more about prophecy than I do now!!! :D What I mean is that I used to think that I had so much figured out in my "dispensationalist" little mind. I know that there are 3 major views of eschatology and dispensationalism is only one of them.

I have learned not to be concerned with the "right" eschatological view. I am more concerned about people living for God right now than I am about having end times figured out.

Regarding so called "prophets".....I am not really impressed with people who can read people's mail, so to speak. What's the big deal? How many lives have been changed simple because someone told them things about their lives even with stunning accuracy?

What impresses me? People falling out, down, shockamoo etc? NO! What "impresses" me is seeing a life which was bound in sin and is set free by the blood of Jesus Christ. That is what I long for! The rest is just fluff! Exciting nonetheless, but just fluff compared to the miracle of salvation.

So don't expect me to fall down at the feet of the "prophet" William Branham or anyone like him simply because they can read people's mail.

jediwill83
06-30-2008, 08:45 PM
I was by no means advocating "Prophet Chasing" sorry if it came across like I was.Trust me....God has spoken VERY strongly about that to me.I just know that there IS a place for this ministry in the body.

ManOfWord
06-30-2008, 09:55 PM
I was by no means advocating "Prophet Chasing" sorry if it came across like I was.Trust me....God has spoken VERY strongly about that to me.I just know that there IS a place for this ministry in the body.

I wasn't accusing you of prophet chasing. I was merely stating my opinion on the whole issue. I believe in prophets, I just think that there are far fewer prophets than those who claim to be. :D

jediwill83
06-30-2008, 10:01 PM
I agree bro.

Rico
07-01-2008, 12:24 PM
Thanks. I will look for it. I went to the Bible book store in this area, specifically looking for a book that deals just with the prophets. Unfortunately, I had no luck. The guy from the store even suggested I try their website because they are nationwide. Still no luck. I will do a search using the title you gave me. Thanks! :D

This is the book I found, using the title you gave me. Apparently, this isn't the book you were talking about?


http://www.amazon.com/Hebrew-Prophets-James-D-Newsome/dp/0804201137

Rico
07-09-2008, 12:28 AM
This is the book I found, using the title you gave me. Apparently, this isn't the book you were talking about?


http://www.amazon.com/Hebrew-Prophets-James-D-Newsome/dp/0804201137

I went ahead and ordered this book through Amazon today. I chose to go with a used copy in like new condition. Got a good deal on it too. Less than $10 including the shipping. I am looking forward to reading it.


So far, in reading the Book of Jeremiah, I have to admit it is getting a bit depressing. It's almost as if God is battling His feelings towards Israel and Judah. He's letting them know He's had it with their foolishness and is going to punish them severely. The lightest punishment they will face is going into captivity. The worst is dying through pestilence and the sword. In some of his prophesying, Jeremiah tries to comfort the ones chosen for captivity. God basically tells them to make themselves at home by planting gardens and praying for peace while they are in captivity, because they are going to be there for 70 years. He seems to almost be telling them to consider themselves blessed for ending up in captivity because His plans include freeing them from this captivity. It kind of reminds me of when you spank a child and then immediately try to comfort the child afterwards.

Jekyll
07-09-2008, 12:37 AM
I believe that there are chronological Bibles that have the books of the prophets and the events of the Hebrews in reference to the times that they were with Israel.

mizpeh
07-09-2008, 05:44 AM
I wasn't accusing you of prophet chasing. I was merely stating my opinion on the whole issue. I believe in prophets, I just think that there are far fewer prophets than those who claim to be. :D

I disagree.

Paul listed the 9 gifts of the Spirit given the church (I know there are others but not in this same category) which he said God gives to each SEVERALLY as He wills. So shouldn't there be many prophets?

And then Paul tells the saints in the church at Corinth to let the prophets prophesy one by one which indicates there can be many prophets in ONE church location!

Therefore there should be many more prophets, healers, miracle workers, messages in tongues, words of wisdom, etc, in the church than what we are experiencing.

Bro-Larry
07-09-2008, 06:13 AM
I went ahead and ordered this book through Amazon today. I chose to go with a used copy in like new condition. Got a good deal on it too. Less than $10 including the shipping. I am looking forward to reading it.


So far, in reading the Book of Jeremiah, I have to admit it is getting a bit depressing. It's almost as if God is battling His feelings towards Israel and Judah. He's letting them know He's had it with their foolishness and is going to punish them severely. The lightest punishment they will face is going into captivity. The worst is dying through pestilence and the sword. In some of his prophesying, Jeremiah tries to comfort the ones chosen for captivity. God basically tells them to make themselves at home by planting gardens and praying for peace while they are in captivity, because they are going to be there for 70 years. He seems to almost be telling them to consider themselves blessed for ending up in captivity because His plans include freeing them from this captivity. It kind of reminds me of when you spank a child and then immediately try to comfort the child afterwards.

Rico, Would you send your child off to live with someone whom you knew was going to abuse them? :snapout

No, you emphatically would not! If you, being evil, are that good a parent, how much more is God a better parent than you?

It wasn't God punishing them, He just allowed them to suffer the consequences of their own actions.
The fact is they rebelled, by their own choice, against the family care, provision, and protection, and got taken captive because of their own actions. God can't protect you against yourself.

Bro-Larry
07-09-2008, 06:43 AM
I went ahead and ordered this book through Amazon today. I chose to go with a used copy in like new condition. Got a good deal on it too. Less than $10 including the shipping. I am looking forward to reading it.


So far, in reading the Book of Jeremiah, I have to admit it is getting a bit depressing. It's almost as if God is battling His feelings towards Israel and Judah. He's letting them know He's had it with their foolishness and is going to punish them severely. The lightest punishment they will face is going into captivity. The worst is dying through pestilence and the sword. In some of his prophesying, Jeremiah tries to comfort the ones chosen for captivity. God basically tells them to make themselves at home by planting gardens and praying for peace while they are in captivity, because they are going to be there for 70 years. He seems to almost be telling them to consider themselves blessed for ending up in captivity because His plans include freeing them from this captivity. It kind of reminds me of when you spank a child and then immediately try to comfort the child afterwards.

Sorry Brother, I don't intend to be offensive, but you are just wasting your time and money. When you finish your study, all you are going to end up with is more of man's traditional theology.

I'd like to see you post on AFF, after you finish, and tell us that it was worth the effort.

Cindy
07-09-2008, 07:36 AM
I went ahead and ordered this book through Amazon today. I chose to go with a used copy in like new condition. Got a good deal on it too. Less than $10 including the shipping. I am looking forward to reading it.


So far, in reading the Book of Jeremiah, I have to admit it is getting a bit depressing. It's almost as if God is battling His feelings towards Israel and Judah. He's letting them know He's had it with their foolishness and is going to punish them severely. The lightest punishment they will face is going into captivity. The worst is dying through pestilence and the sword. In some of his prophesying, Jeremiah tries to comfort the ones chosen for captivity. God basically tells them to make themselves at home by planting gardens and praying for peace while they are in captivity, because they are going to be there for 70 years. He seems to almost be telling them to consider themselves blessed for ending up in captivity because His plans include freeing them from this captivity. It kind of reminds me of when you spank a child and then immediately try to comfort the child afterwards.

Rico, Would you send your child off to live with someone whom you knew was going to abuse them? :snapout

No, you emphatically would not! If you, being evil, are that good a parent, how much more is God a better parent than you?

It wasn't God punishing them, He just allowed them to suffer the consequences of their own actions.
The fact is they rebelled, by their own choice, against the family care, provision, and protection, and got taken captive because of their own actions. God can't protect you against yourself.


Lar you know I love you, but I have to disagree with your last sentence. Some of my actions lead me into a few situations and if He had not literally made a way of escape I would probably not be here now. More than once he protected me against myself. Hallelujah!

Rico
07-09-2008, 10:12 AM
I went ahead and ordered this book through Amazon today. I chose to go with a used copy in like new condition. Got a good deal on it too. Less than $10 including the shipping. I am looking forward to reading it.


So far, in reading the Book of Jeremiah, I have to admit it is getting a bit depressing. It's almost as if God is battling His feelings towards Israel and Judah. He's letting them know He's had it with their foolishness and is going to punish them severely. The lightest punishment they will face is going into captivity. The worst is dying through pestilence and the sword. In some of his prophesying, Jeremiah tries to comfort the ones chosen for captivity. God basically tells them to make themselves at home by planting gardens and praying for peace while they are in captivity, because they are going to be there for 70 years. He seems to almost be telling them to consider themselves blessed for ending up in captivity because His plans include freeing them from this captivity. It kind of reminds me of when you spank a child and then immediately try to comfort the child afterwards.

Rico, Would you send your child off to live with someone whom you knew was going to abuse them? :snapout

No, you emphatically would not! If you, being evil, are that good a parent, how much more is God a better parent than you?

It wasn't God punishing them, He just allowed them to suffer the consequences of their own actions.
The fact is they rebelled, by their own choice, against the family care, provision, and protection, and got taken captive because of their own actions. God can't protect you against yourself.

Larry, I will take what the Bible says over what you think.

Rico
07-11-2008, 07:01 PM
Jer 32:26-44 (KJV)
26 Then came the word of the LORD unto Jeremiah, saying, 27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me? 28 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will give this city into the hand of the Chaldeans, and into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and he shall take it: 29 And the Chaldeans, that fight against this city, shall come and set fire on this city, and burn it with the houses, upon whose roofs they have offered incense unto Baal, and poured out drink offerings unto other gods, to provoke me to anger. 30 For the children of Israel and the children of Judah have only done evil before me from their youth: for the children of Israel have only provoked me to anger with the work of their hands, saith the LORD. 31 For this city hath been to me as a provocation of mine anger and of my fury from the day that they built it even unto this day; that I should remove it from before my face, 32 Because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke me to anger, they, their kings, their princes, their priests, and their prophets, and the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 33 And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction. 34 But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it. 35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. 36 And now therefore thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, concerning this city, whereof ye say, It shall be delivered into the hand of the king of Babylon by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence;


While I was reading this scripture last night, the Lord spoke the word, "justice" into my spirit. I had intended on reading more, as my custom has become to read 3-5 chapters at any sitting, but I decided to stop and just think about justice for awhile.

Justice is one of God's strongest characteristics. In fact, I would go so far as to say it's one of the strongest forces at work in the mind of God. I looked up the word "justice" in Strong's. More than one word is used for "justice" in the OT, but they all come from the following root word:


Hebrew Strong's Number: 6663
Hebrew Word: ‏צָדַק‎
Transliteration: ṣādaq
Phonetic Pronunciation:tsaw-dak'
Root: a primitive root
Cross Reference: TWOT - 1879
Part of Speech: v
Vine's Words: Righteous (To Be)


Usage Notes:

English Words used in KJV:
justify 23
righteous 10
just 3
justice 2
cleansed 1
clear ourselves 1
righteousness 1
[Total Count: 41]

a primitive root; to be (causative make) right (in a moral or forensic sense) :- cleanse, clear self, (be, do) just (-ice, -ify, -ify self), (be, turn to) righteous (-ness).

God is driven by a sense of what is right. While speaking to Jeremiah, He gave His reasons for pronouncing judgment over Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem. In His sovereignty, God expected certain things from His people. In a nutshell, they had turned away from Him and were serving other gods. God put up with it until His sense of justice demanded that they be punished, and it drove Him to pronounce judgment over Israel, Judah, and Jerusalem. Some would die by the sword, some would die by pestilence, and others were destined for captivity. God's mind was made up, they were going to be punished, and that was the end of it.

Or was it? He had no sooner pronounced judgment over them when we see him saying the following to Jeremiah:


Jer 32:37-44 (KJV)
37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely: 38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God: 39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: 40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. 41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul. 42 For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them. 43 And fields shall be bought in this land, whereof ye say, It is desolate without man or beast; it is given into the hand of the Chaldeans. 44 Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD.


In an apparent "about face", God starts telling Jeremiah the punishment of His people will not be permanent. He begins telling Jeremiah the good things He has in store for them; how He's going to be their God; how He's going to replant them in the land He promised them; how their hearts will once again be turned towards Him.

Why, you ask? Because of God's sense of justice! That same sense of justice, that demanded they be punished, also demanded their punishment not be permanent. God had made promises to His people to bring good to them, and His sense of justice would not allow Him to punish them permanently! What an awesome God He is!

As I was thinking on these things last night, I couldn't help but think about the cross and the mission God was on when He came to Earth all those years ago. See, justice demands that we be punished for our sin. Justice demands that judgment be pronounced over man because of his disobedience to God. The wages of sin truly are death, and none of us can escape this judgment on our own.

God's sense of judgment, however, also demanded that He make a way of escape for us. He knew that His creation was weak and frail. He could see that we would never be able to live up to the standard of sinlessness a sinless God such as Himself required. So, He formulated a plan, a way of escape for the creation He loves so much. He would come down to where we are and be what we could not be. He would create for Himself a body He could live in. A body He could use as the ultimate sacrifice for the sin of man. He could, once and for ever, reconcile His creation unto Himself. He would come to Earth, fulfill his own requirement for sinlessness, and sacrifice the body He created for Himself, so that I could one day see Him face to face and call Him Saviour, Redeemer, Lord, and my God. Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Thank God for His sense of justice!

Rico
07-12-2008, 06:11 PM
WooooooooooooHooooooooooooo! The book came today!! I am so pumped about studying these prophets! Here's a list of the prophets dealt with in this book:


Amos
Hosea
Micah
Isaiah (It does this one as 1,2, and 3. Wonder what that means)
Zephaniah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
Haggai
Zechariah
Obadiah
Joel
Malachi
Jonah