Could You Spot Jezebel in Your Church?

[SDG]

Would you even recognize a Jezebel in your church?

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ! Would she stand out or blend in.:happydance:happydance



What made Jezebel stand out or blend in my preacher friends?

Fixing herself up like most of the women in this region did during the historical time period ... as they do today

....or what is it her evil attitude?

You and I both know it was the latter.

Was it her brushing her hair and her painting herself that brought judgment to her and her house?

The term Jezebel, equated w/ being a temptress, in our Western culture has the same stigma the Doubting Thomas has. Both labels however are misnomers and do not fairly characterize these personages.

I submit that there are women and men in America's churches that have the Spirit of Jezebel and has little to do w/ their use of cosmetics ... nor are these the tell-tale signs of their evil attitudes.

There are plenty of Oneness women, and Baptist women, (and men for that matter) ....

sitting in the pews Holiness churches that preach against makeup that have this Jezebel spirit ... and it has nothing to do w/ cosmetics ...

nor the skin matching blush, foundation the women are wearing or the light eyeliner or lipstick they carefully and secretly put on as to make it look natural.

Just as there are some who go to liberal churches who have it caked on like Tammy Fayes ... who have this spirit.

The true marker that distinguishes whether a Jezebel either stands out or blends in your very church would be if they practiced the rebellious, idolatrous and immoral sins she engaged in.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Let's go to the bible archives ... shall we???
... rather than our manuals:

Jezebel was a deceitful woman and idolatrous who uses her husband and later her sons to gain and retain power over Israel. In addition to instituting the worship of her pagan god in Israel and causing temples to be built in his honor, Jezebel is responsible for the execution of many prophets of Jehovah, the God of the Jewish people she rules. After Jezebel engineers the death of a man named Naboth and his sons by wrongly accusing them of treason (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-treason.htm), so that Ahab may take possession of their vineyard (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-vineyard.htm), the prophet (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-prophet.htm) Elijah prophesies Jezebel's violent death.


Jezebel survives both Ahab and her elder son, Ahaziah, as queen. Her younger son, Joram, succeeds to the throne, but is killed by Jehu, who thereafter becomes king of Israel. During the revolt led by Jehu, Jezebel is also killed, fulfilling Elijah's prophecy (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-prophecy.htm). She is pushed out of her window and her corpse is eaten by dogs.


http://www.wisegeek.com/who-is-jezebel.htm (http://www.wisegeek.com/who-is-jezebel.htm)

---------------------------------------------------------------

Jezebel is usually associated with clothes, makeup, seduction ... that's a superficial skin deep approach to a deeper and more serious issue.

The deeper truth is her spiritual deception. Both men and women that want control over a church, congregation can operate with a Jezebel spirit. The spirit of Jezebel is genderless ... my preacher friends.

A Jezebel spirit is one who inappropriately through hostile measures takes possession of God-ordained positions of authority. He/She is manipulative, conniving & uses intimidation (threats, speaks spells ) to dominate and control people.

The spirit of Jezebel is a lustful spirit, she lusts after the worship of self and the gods of this world. She hates the prophetic voice of God and will try and silence God's prophets.

And this spirit can come in the form of some the holiest looking people we know. Even an 80 year old saint of a woman dressed in Holiness garb.

The flawed thinking your paradigm mistakenly state that if that 80 year old woman puts on lipstick, ... she must want to seduce someone and therefore is a Jezebel ... GIVE US BREAK!!!!!

She'd could have the spirit of Jezebel w/ or without that lipstick.

It's a faulty cause and effect relationship that does not examine the root.

One writer states:

Sin by association is not necessarily sin at all.

Let's suppose it was written about Jezebel: "And when Jehu was come to
Jezreel, Jezebel heard of it; and she put on her wonder bra, red panty hose and shiny black patented leather high heeled shoes, together with her silk yellow dress. And combing her hair loose so it hung to her waist, she looked out at a window." Would this make wonder bras sin per se? Would silk yellow dresses become a sin to wear?

How about black patented shoes or having a brushed head of
hair loose to the waist, would they be sin also?

What if it had been written that Jezebel perfumed herself and put on a pearl necklace, would that nullify the verses where such are used in a good sense, and so become sin for all women to use perfume or a necklace?

Back to Woodrow:

" .......Camphire, mentioned in the Song of Solomon(1:14;4:13) and identified as henna (Strong's Concordance, #3724), provided a much used reddish-orange dye.

Concerning this, the Encyclopedia Judaica (Vol.8, p. 327) says: 'Throughout the ages the peoples of the East prized this beautiful, fast dye which was used for dying the hair and nails.'

Henna was also used on the palms of the hands and soles of
the feet.

Considering how well-known and how widely used these various forms of make-up were in the land of the Bible, if God was against its use, why is it nowhere stated in the Bible?
How true is the statement:

'Man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart' (1 Samuel 16:7 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Samuel+16%3A7))!

http://www.keithhunt.com/Makeup3.html (http://www.keithhunt.com/Makeup3.html)

Lastly the Jezebel of the bible ... including the one, an alluring prophetess, that John writes of in Revelation is not directly associated w/ sexual promiscuity per se ... although, of course, sexual perversion was always part of pagan worship ...

Her seduction was a spiritual one ... one that sought to seduce the king of Israel and the people of God away from the Holy One of Israel.

so to answer your question ... can I recognize one in my church ... I'd hope so before she or he brings irreparable damage to the congregation ... but it wouldn't be because of his or her cosmetics but it would be THE ATTITUDE.

[SDG]

I think the premise that if a woman is wearing some form of makeup she is a prostitute and not a child of God washed by the blood of the Lamb is offensive and tramples on the children of the Most High and His sacrifice.

It also condemns a great majority of women ... in Oneness Pentecost, including preachers wives, whose purses are filled w/ Estee Lauder, Looreal, Avon and Mary Kay cosmetics in their purses.

Jezebel was not notorious in Israel for eye makeup.

[El Predicador]

Jezebel as far as make-up was pre-Pentcost. Israelites had no prohibition about being fancy dressers (ie dress to impress) . NT does.

[SDG]

Could you spot Jezebel in a Holiness church?

Could it be your associate pastor ... your Sunday school teacher?

[SDG]

Jezebel as far as make-up was pre-Pentcost. Israelites had no prohibition about being fancy dressers (ie dress to impress) . NT does.

More dispensationalist mumbo-jumbo. Could you spot Jezebel in your church, Senor Smoke.

[bkstokes]

I agree

I think the key to understanding who Jezsebeel is understanding that she was a woman who influenced not only her husband, but a whole nation to follow after idolatry. Is there ground to say that she used seduction? I will say that whenever men and women are involved in power struggles the women are always accused of seduction. Whether it takes place or not -- only those involved and God are aware of this information.

[bkstokes]

Dan

I will say that years ago I heard Clifton Le June teach a lesson and in that lesson he talked about how make-up accentuates or makes visible what a women could possible be like in more intense moments. I am not exagerating.

[El Predicador]

More dispensationalist mumbo-jumbo. Could you spot Jezebel in your church, Senor Smoke.

Dividing the Bible into pre-Calvary and post-Calvary is "dispensationalist mumbo-jumb"??????????????? Sad.

But the answer to your question is, of course. It's called discernment. A gift of the Holy Ghost. You know that OPTIONAL blessing you get after being saved.

:happydance

[AmericanAngel]

Sooooooooooooo...
is "Dew Kiss" by Avon Jezabelionish? :boxing

[SDG]

Dan

I will say that years ago I heard Clifton Le June teach a lesson and in that lesson he talked about how make-up accentuates or makes visible what a women could possible be like in more intense moments. I am not exagerating.

This man taught this in a church? Why do Holiness standards teachings focus so much ... or intimate .... sexual innuendo?

Its seems a bit obsessive. Makeup now give women the orgasmic look?

It's sick.

[SDG]

Dividing the Bible into pre-Calvary and post-Calvary is "dispensationalist mumbo-jumb"??????????????? Sad.

But the answer to your question is, of course. It's called discernment. A gift of the Holy Ghost. You know that OPTIONAL blessing you get after being saved.

:happydance


So you've answered your question that you directed towards me...


Would you even recognize a Jezebel in your church?


oooooooooooooooooooops, Elder Epley. I think we've hit paydirt.

[SDG]

Dividing the Bible into pre-Calvary and post-Calvary is "dispensationalist mumbo-jumb"??????????????? Sad.

But the answer to your question is, of course. It's called discernment. A gift of the Holy Ghost. You know that OPTIONAL blessing you get after being saved.

:happydance

I thought you just divided the bible in pre-Pentecost and post-Pentecost ...

Will you make up your mind.

[El Predicador]

So you've answered your question that you directed towards me...



.

No I answered how I do it.

You still have not answered how you would.

In a Holy Ghost optional world.

[SDG]

No I answered how I do it.

You still have not answered how you would.

In a Holy Ghost optional world.

More spiritual elitism in this view.

Smells like Coon up in here.

[El Predicador]

I thought you just divided the bible in pre-Pentecost and post-Pentecost ...

Will you make up your mind.

Danny.

Dividing the Bible into OT and NT is not "dispensationalism".

You should know the fundamentals of a term before you knock the doctrine.

World of difference between understanding the ages of conscious, law, grace, and endtimes and understanding pre-Calvary and post-Calvary.

How many animals have you sacrificed lately for your sins?

[SDG]

Interestingly enough however in Holiness teachings identifying the Jezebel is not a work of the Spirit ... or discernment but rather clever and manipulative Jezebel like arguments making cosmetic users prostitutes and queen harlots.

[El Predicador]

More spiritual elitism in this view.

Smells like Coon up in here.

NOW YOU RESORT TO RACISM?????

What's that supposed to mean?

[SDG]

Danny.

Dividing the Bible into OT and NT is not "dispensationalism".

You should know the fundamentals of a term before you knock the doctrine.

World of difference between understanding the ages of conscious, law, grace, and endtimes and understanding pre-Calvary and post-Calvary.

How many animals have you sacrificed lately for your sins?

An entire different topic that I'm sure preterists could mop the floor w/ you with ....

Maybe we resurrect a thread on this doctrine ... and discuss it there ...

back to to the matter of hand ... if a Holiness pastor does not have this "gift of discernment of spirits" ... how does he spot Jezebel in his Holy Ghost filled church?

[SDG]

NOW YOU RESORT TO RACISM?????

What's that supposed to mean?

Racism. That's funny. Try to make that one stick.

Coon(skinner) is a poster here ... that you remind me of.

[mizpeh]

Interestingly enough however in Holiness teachings identifying the Jezebel is not a work of the Spirit ... or discernment but rather clever and manipulative Jezebel like arguments making cosmetic users prostitutes and queen harlots.

Dan, was the Jezebel in Revelations a literal person in the church of Thyatira called Jezebel or something else?

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Has anyone on this thread mentioned makeup and Jezebel in the same breath except you? Who are you arguing with?

[mizpeh]

An entire different topic that I'm sure preterists could mop the floor w/ you with ....

Maybe we resurrect a thread on this doctrine ... and discuss it there ...

back to to the matter of hand ... if a Holiness pastor does not have this "gift of discernment of spirits" ... how does he spot Jezebel in his Holy Ghost filled church?

a tree is known by its fruit.......fornication and idolatry

Maybe a statue of Baal! ;)

[SDG]

Dan, was the Jezebel in Revelations a literal person in the church of Thyatira called Jezebel or something else?

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Has anyone on this thread mentioned makeup and Jezebel in the same breath except you? Who are you arguing with?

This a pervasive argument made by Holiness preachers for decades, Mizpeh that I'm addressing ... it's a tangent from a different discussion we were having on Holiness standards.

I have addressed this other prophetess in my initial post.

[Jack Shephard]

Jezabel is a rebelious spirit. So just look for the rebelious people. But because they are going against the grain does not make one rebelious. Jezabel spirit is rebelion against God often times it is taught it is ONLY rebelion against preachers.

[SDG]

a tree is known by its fruit.......fornication and idolatry

Maybe a statue of Baal! ;)

Agreed ... it is by their fruits.

however, apparently women are still subject to being called whores and harlots in churches and church literature... for wearing cosmetics.

[El Predicador]

Racism. That's funny. Try to make that one stick.

Coon(skinner) is a poster here ... that you remind me of.


Glad you clarified.

I am sure based on YOUR postings that "Coon(skinner)" is a good man.

[stmatthew]

Jezabel is a rebelious spirit. So just look for the rebelious people. But because they are going against the grain does not make one rebelious. Jezabel spirit is rebelion against God often times it is taught it is ONLY rebelion against preachers.

So do you believe you can be in rebellion against the ministry, and not be in rebellion against God?

[mizpeh]

This a pervasive argument made by Holiness preachers for decades, Mizpeh that I'm addressing ... it's a tangent from a different discussion we were having on Holiness standards.

I have addressed this other prophetess in my initial post.

I don't have time to read the initial post d/t its lengthhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Maybe later.

[Rhoni]

This man taught this in a church? Why do Holiness standards teachings focus so much ... or intimate .... sexual innuendo?

Its seems a bit obsessive. Makeup now give women the orgasmic look?

It's sick.

It is not only obsessive but ridiculous...everyone knows a woman in the throws of "O" could care less about her make-up:toofunny

[mizpeh]

Agreed ... it is by their fruits.

however, apparently women are subject to being called whores and harlots in churches and church literature... for wearing cosmetics.

Was Jezebel a whore? Maybe in a spiritual sense.

[SDG]

Was Jezebel a whore? Maybe in a spiritual sense.

Exactly the thrust of my post ... No evidence she was involved in said profession.

she seduced the anointed man of God and His people away from the God of Israel.

[mizpeh]

So do you believe you can be in rebellion against the ministry, and not be in rebellion against God?

Depends.

[El Predicador]

back to to the matter of hand ... if a Holiness pastor does not have this "gift of discernment of spirits" ... how does he spot Jezebel in his Holy Ghost filled church?

Now the truth comes out !

You need lessons.

Give me the address to your church, if I am ever in your town I'll be glad to come by and point them out to you, blindfolded.

Without holiness, no gifts of the Spirit so all you have is sight. With holiness you can discern spirits and not by sight alone.

[Jack Shephard]

Dan, was the Jezebel in Revelations a literal person in the church of Thyatira called Jezebel or something else?

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Has anyone on this thread mentioned makeup and Jezebel in the same breath except you? Who are you arguing with?

I have heard that this Jez in Rev is not the same Jez that is in the OT. Similar to when Lazarus died and Jesus brought him back alive it is told that at that time there could have been several Lazurus', similar to todays Lawrence or Larry, that were dead, but the one that was supposed to be raised up was because the voice of Jesus was specific to that Lazurus.

[El Predicador]

So do you believe you can be in rebellion against the ministry, and not be in rebellion against God?

Depends.

That sure would have been News to King David

[SDG]

Now the truth comes out !

You need lessons.

Give me the address to your church, if I am ever in your town I'll be glad to come by and point them out to you, blindfolded.

Without holiness, no gifts of the Spirit so all you have is sight. With holiness you can discern spirits and not by sight alone.

Absolutely ... but

That's when Holiness eminates from God ... and not ritualistic dress.

The gifts are operating in non-Holiness dress code churches.

[Jack Shephard]

So do you believe you can be in rebellion against the ministry, and not be in rebellion against God?

Sure you can be considered rebelious against a man and not be unto God. Because a preacher says something does not make it gospel or even close to truth. Anyone can manipulate scripture to try and prove an argument. But the real truth is that rebeling against God is numero uno on the wrong list. It is QUITE possible to not obey a preaher and still be obeying God...the preacher can be wrong...God never is.

[El Predicador]

Exactly the thrust of my post ... No evidence she was involved in said profession.

she seduced the anointed man of God and His people away from the God of Israel.

So without Jezebel Ahab would have been perfect?

Ahab was not right before God to begin with, that is the reason he married the painted hussy.

[SDG]

El Predicador ... you've evaded my question ... about a Holiness pastor who may not have this gift ... perhaps we need clarifying questions

Do you believe all Holy Ghost filled saints have the gift of discernment of spirits?

And is this gift in operation in all Holiness churches?

[stmatthew]

Sure you can be considered rebelious against a man and not be unto God. Because a preacher says something does not make it gospel or even close to truth. Anyone can manipulate scripture to try and prove an argument. But the real truth is that rebeling against God is numero uno on the wrong list. It is QUITE possible to not obey a preaher and still be obeying God...the preacher can be wrong...God never is.

We all know that being in rebellion, and being considered in rebellion, is 2 different things.

[AmericanAngel]

I think the premise that if a woman is wearing some form of makeup she is a prostitute and not a child of God washed by the blood of the Lamb is offensive and tramples on the children of the Most High and His sacrifice.

It also condemns a great majority of women ... in Oneness Pentecost, including preachers wives, whose purses are filled w/ Estee Lauder, Looreal, Avon and Mary Kay cosmetics in their purses.

Jezebel was not notorious in Israel for eye makeup.

Some say she IS a Jezebel for wearing makeup. And some say she is not. It's divided. I personally say it's a "spirit" of delusion. I know people(women) that wear makeup and "act " more godly than those who don't. I know men with long hair and beards that "act" more holy then some of these holy looking men in church!
We shall know them by their fruit. Not by what they wear aka outward appearance.
How can we "spot" them? I donno Dan, time? Time tells. By their fruit ye shall know them. What comes out of their mouths? Their actions. Doers of the word, not just sayers.[Do as I say, not as I do] Men can do this too, not just women. I'm not talking about men wearing womens clothes and makeup...duh :doh
Great subject though. Bottom line...I believe its not outward associated.

[Jack Shephard]

We all know that being in rebellion, and being considered in rebellion, is 2 different things.

ok so......my answer is still the same. Man can be wrong and God never is. Period!

[DividedThigh]

that is sick dan, you got it right though, jezzie is a spirit and a spritual sickness, not just looks, i would think delilah would be a better target for the holiness lookers thing, lol,dt

[stmatthew]

El Predicador ... you've evaded my question ... about a Holiness pastor who may not have this gift ... perhaps we need clarifying questions

Do you believe all Holy Ghost filled saints have the gift of discernment of spirits?

And is this gift in operation in all Holiness churches?

I am not El Predicador, but the answer is no, we do not all have the gift of discerning of good and evil.

BUT, we all are able to try (test) the spirits.

[SDG]

I am not El Predicador, but the answer is no, we do not all have the gift of discerning of good and evil.

BUT, we all are able to try (test) the spirits.

Agreed.

Interesting so Jezebel might go undetected in a Holy Ghost filled Holiness church ... even El Predicador's.

Man ...

This is what happens when one tries to monopolize truth and the Spirit of God.

And still the determining factor that one is a hussy and a Jezebal is the paint ... see El Predicador's doctrine.

[mizpeh]

Now the truth comes out !

You need lessons.

Give me the address to your church, if I am ever in your town I'll be glad to come by and point them out to you, blindfolded.

Without holiness, no gifts of the Spirit so all you have is sight. With holiness you can discern spirits and not by sight alone.

What is your definition of holiness?

[El Predicador]

El Predicador ... you've evaded my question ... about a Holiness pastor who may not have this gift ... perhaps we need clarifying questions

Do you believe all Holy Ghost filled saints have the gift of discernment of spirits?

And is this gift in operation in all Holiness churches?

Nothing to evade, it is obvious you are speaking of yourself, nothing to be ashamed of, we all have to learn.

I will be glad to come to your church and teach on the gifts of the spirit and how they operate.

You seem to be looking for a pat one size fit all three sentence answer.

If you would be more specific about what is going on in your church that prompted the original question maybe I could be of more help.

[mizpeh]

That sure would have been News to King David

Jeremiah, was he rebellious?

[SDG]

Nothing to evade, it is obvious you are speaking of yourself, nothing to be ashamed of, we all have to learn.

I will be glad to come to your church and teach on the gifts of the spirit and how they operate.

You seem to be looking for a pat one size fit all three sentence answer.

If you would be more specific about what is going on in your church that prompted the original question maybe I could be of more help.

So you don't have all the answers ... I'd rather have a person who doesn't confuse paint for God's Holiness or lack thereof ... to teach on the Holy in Holy Ghost.

Thanks for the offer ... I'm sure your preaching circuit would love to have you ...

I'm sure you'd get a soccer match reaction upon touching the topic of Jezebel and hussys.

[DividedThigh]

outward appearance does not equal holiness, the corruption is or is not on the inside, Jesus

[stmatthew]

outward appearance does not equal holiness, the corruption is or is not on the inside, Jesus

But holiness will do something to the outer appearance. :bliss

[Baron1710]

But holiness will do something to the outer appearance. :bliss

Yea it will put a smile on your face.

[SDG]

Yea it will put a smile on your face.

And a pep in your step.

And of course conform you to a Norman Rockwell painting.

[Sister Alvear]

I could spot her but not for reasons some think...

[SDG]

I could spot her but not for reasons some think...

Or him?

[DividedThigh]

But holiness will do something to the outer appearance. :bliss

of course it will but holiness is god, he is in the heart not our clothes, conformity to standards only reflect inward virtue, my problem is with all the holy that dress right , talk right and spit white, and are full of dead mens bones, dt

[StillStanding]

I think I spotted Jezzy last Sunday! :)

[Sister Alvear]

I plead for balance...and yes, Icould spot him too...

[Jack Shephard]

But holiness will do something to the outer appearance. :bliss

Says who? Your local UPC preacher? I think once someone has holiness in their heart it will show on the outside, but appearance I assume you mean dress differently, right?

[DividedThigh]

I think I spotted Jezzy last Sunday! :)

i saw her up here in the north too, must be a fast broom, lol,dt

[SDG]

Says who? Your local UPC preacher? I think once someone has holiness in their heart it will show on the outside, but appearance I assume you mean dress differently, right?'

Dress differently .... according to a snapshot in time or a man's manual?

[StillStanding]

i saw her up here in the north too, must be a fast broom, lol,dt
Yeah, she gets around! :D

[MissBrattified]

But holiness will do something to the outer appearance. :bliss

An unholy heart can dress very conservatively, if it pleases her (or him).

I've known some pretty godly people who wore less clothing than many would approve of.

It's WAY more in attitude than it is in appearance. I agree the appearance matters, but only a little, at least on the point of this thread. I have Indian friends who wear the bangles all the way up to their elbows, wear those stomach baring tops with the sari, wear lots of eye makeup, and yet they still seem very wholesome, demure and modest. It's in the way they ACT.

[stmatthew]

Says who? Your local UPC preacher? I think once someone has holiness in their heart it will show on the outside, but appearance I assume you mean dress differently, right?

I would say that if holiness is on the inside, modesty will be on the outside. Am I right??

[DividedThigh]

Yeah, she gets around! :D

hasnt she always, hey isnt it golf day for you my friend, lol,dt

[SDG]

An unholy heart can dress very conservatively, if it pleases her (or him).

I've known some pretty godly people who wore less clothing than many would approve of.

It's WAY more in attitude than it is in appearance. I agree the appearance matters, but only a little, at least on the point of this thread. I have Indian friends who wear the bangles all the way up to their elbows, wear those stomach baring tops with the sari, wear lots of eye makeup, and yet they still seem very wholesome, demure and modest. It's in the way they ACT.

Yes m'am. Well said as always. I'm jealous.

[DividedThigh]

I would say that if holiness is on the inside, modesty will be on the outside. Am I right??

yes , but some room has to be made for interpretation on modesty, and not these hard fast rules that preacher use to condemn, really, dt

[MissBrattified]

I would say that if holiness is on the inside, modesty will be on the outside. Am I right??

Hmmm. I don't know that I agree. :) Adam and Eve were pure and naked. :D In their most pure state, they had no clothes on at all.

No, I think holiness is a state God induces upon our hearts, and modesty is an expression of courtesy and concern for others, a symptom of more maturity, but not necessarily more holiness.

[SDG]

I would say that if holiness is on the inside, modesty will be on the outside. Am I right??

Modesty is on the inside ... is modesty just clothing?

I thought modest dealt also w/ vanity ...

As Miss B state one could have a modest appearance ... as defined by a fragment of the Body of God .... and not be holy inwardly or outwardly.

[Sister Alvear]

the Bible says modest...look in the mirrow and you will see for yourself if you are modest...

[MissBrattified]

Yes m'am. Well said as always. I'm jealous.

TY...You're being very agreeable lately. Or maybe I am. I can't decide which. :D

[SDG]

Hmmm. I don't know that I agree. :) Adam and Eve were pure and naked. :D In their most pure state, they had no clothes on at all.

No, I think holiness is a state God induces upon our hearts, and modesty is an expression of courtesy and concern for others, a symptom of more maturity, but not necessarily more holiness.

You need to start your own mega-church ... maybe you can have Matt in a backroom crunching numbers.

[StillStanding]

hasnt she always, hey isnt it golf day for you my friend, lol,dt
Yep! I had to mow the yard first! I'll be teeing off around 2:00PM!

[Sister Alvear]

if clotes were all there were to holiness the nuns are far more holy than most of us...my dear ones, if you meet a person that is holy You will know it.

[MissBrattified]

You need to start your own mega-church ... maybe you can have Matt in a backroom crunching numbers.

eh? :gaga

[MissBrattified]

if clotes were all there were to holiness the nuns are far more holy than most of us...my dear ones, if you meet a person that is holy You will know it.

Very true, and I've met holy people who didn't necessarily line up to my personal standard of appropriate dress, and unholy people who exceeded it.

I really think that appropriate, modest dress and "holiness" are totally separate issues, and when we try to make them equal or related, we run into all kinds of theological problems.

[stmatthew]

Hmmm. I don't know that I agree. :) Adam and Eve were pure and naked. :D In their most pure state, they had no clothes on at all.

No, I think holiness is a state God induces upon our hearts, and modesty is an expression of courtesy and concern for others, a symptom of more maturity, but not necessarily more holiness.


In their most pure state they were blind to their nakedness. But as soon as they saw, they attempted to hide and cover up. So until you are in the same state they were in prior to the fall, and are totally blind to fleshly things, I would say that it is best to cover up.


And I do not think anyone has stated that the more holy you are, the more modest you get. But I do not believe a person can have Gods holiness, and not be modest in their lifestyle.

[MissBrattified]

In their most pure state they were blind to their nakedness. But as soon as they saw, they attempted to hide and cover up. So until you are in the same state they were in prior to the fall, and are totally blind to fleshly things, I would say that it is best to cover up.


And I do not think anyone has stated that the more holy you are, the more modest you get. But I do not believe a person can have Gods holiness, and not be modest in their lifestyle.

Your last paragraph is contradictory. You state that you don't believe that more modesty = more holiness or vice versa, but then you said...you can't be holy and not be modest.

Modest by whose standard? That's the problem. We go around trying to decide whether folks are "Christian" enough based on how they dress. It's a problem. And then use our conclusions to decide all sorts of things, including (but not limited to) whether or not we show love to them, or whether or not we fellowship with them. (And they are our brothers and sisters in Christ whether we like it or not.)

Jesus said that we will show that we are HIS by how much we LOVE one another. Never once did He say we will show we are HIS by how "modestly" we dress. That's why I say they are separate issues.

I didn't say that modesty is a NON-issue. We teach our children modesty. But we don't tell them it's a sin to show skin. :) ...because it's not. :D And it's NOT a test of holiness, or even necessarily evidence of holiness.

[DividedThigh]

modesty is a must but different cultures do have different ideas of what modest is and isnt, some cultures in africa, cover all, and some cover half, who rules these god or the local preacher, huh, dt

[mizpeh]

Very true, and I've met holy people who didn't necessarily line up to my personal standard of appropriate dress, and unholy people who exceeded it.

I really think that appropriate, modest dress and "holiness" are totally separate issues, and when we try to make them equal or related, we run into all kinds of theological problems.

Would you say sin and holiness are the opposites of each other? Can certain clothing be sinful in and of themselves? I don't think so, but depending on where you wear something and the reason you wear something, then you may be sinning by wearing those clothes. Even the clothes we wear should glorify God in some way.

[Pressing-On]

In their most pure state they were blind to their nakedness. But as soon as they saw, they attempted to hide and cover up. So until you are in the same state they were in prior to the fall, and are totally blind to fleshly things, I would say that it is best to cover up.


And I do not think anyone has stated that the more holy you are, the more modest you get. But I do not believe a person can have Gods holiness, and not be modest in their lifestyle.
I agree with you. Even if someone had on a psuedo show of Christian dress while the heart was stained, a woman still has to take 1Ti 2:9 seriously.

I Timothy 2:9 "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;"

"modest" is very instructive as it means to be "decorous" which goes as far as - The appropriateness of an element of an artistic or literary work, such as style or tone, to its particular circumstance or to the composition as a whole.

And being that apparel follows the word modest it is drawing this definition into the outward appearance. It is important to God. So yes, he looks on the heart. Your heart will show in your conduct AND your dress.

[Steve Epley]

Again this is very simple listen up.
"You can look the part and NOT be the part but you cannot be the part and not look the part.!"
Shout now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:happydance:happydance:happy dance

[Michael Phelps]

Again this is very simple listen up.
"You can look the part and NOT be the part but you cannot be the part and not look the part.!"
Shout now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:happydance:happydance:happy dance

Which scriptures define "the part"?

[DividedThigh]

that is a good question, dt

[Jack Shephard]

I would say that if holiness is on the inside, modesty will be on the outside. Am I right??

Sure, but not the modesty dress code would be. Modesty is key, but man puts limits on what is or isn't modest and only a person can judge what they feel modest in

[SDG]

Sure, but not the modesty dress code would be. Modesty is key, but man puts limits on what is or isn't modest and only a person can judge what they feel modest in

through the direction of the Holy Spirit, of course.

[DividedThigh]

therein lies the rub, lol

[Pressing-On]

through the direction of the Holy Spirit, of course.
Totally agree!!

[DividedThigh]

through the direction of the Holy Spirit, of course.

bingo we have a winner, dt

[Jack Shephard]

through the direction of the Holy Spirit, of course.

Of course!

[Jack Shephard]

Again this is very simple listen up.
"You can look the part and NOT be the part but you cannot be the part and not look the part.!"
Shout now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:happydance:happydance:happy dance

So if it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck then it is a duck? What if it is a parrott that quacks like a duck, then what? Look has VERY little to do with actually being Holy though it does give one the impression that one is holy. I have seen services where a women that most on here would say is a Jezabel hit the altar and begin to worship and the women saints gather around and try to pray her through but when they arrive she is already into the spirit and they rejoice and such. Come to find out she is a saint of God visiting from out of town. It is all about perception. . .most often perception is wrong, IMO.

[George]

Hmmm. I don't know that I agree. :) Adam and Eve were pure and naked. :D In their most pure state, they had no clothes on at all.

No, I think holiness is a state God induces upon our hearts, and modesty is an expression of courtesy and concern for others, a symptom of more maturity, but not necessarily more holiness.

There are some people I think would be quite modest naked....
and there are some who would be very immodest naked. :bliss :happydance :toofunny :bliss

[DividedThigh]

There are some people I think would be quite modest naked....
and there are some who would be very immodest naked. :bliss :happydance :toofunny :bliss

and some just down right disgusting, lol

[Rico]

So without Jezebel Ahab would have been perfect?

Ahab was not right before God to begin with, that is the reason he married the painted hussy.

Very telling.

[Rico]

But holiness will do something to the outer appearance. :bliss

Scripture please.

[Rico]

Hmmm. I don't know that I agree. :) Adam and Eve were pure and naked. :D In their most pure state, they had no clothes on at all.

No, I think holiness is a state God induces upon our hearts, and modesty is an expression of courtesy and concern for others, a symptom of more maturity, but not necessarily more holiness.

Now this will preach!!

[Pressing-On]

Scripture please.

Rico,
Interesting question - which scripture?

If He is Holy and He imparts that to us at salvation, why the teaching in the epistles on dress, conduct, etc.?

Doesn't it mean that we go on to perfection/maturity as we follow Christ?

Is the Holiness He imparts to us the end or is it the means by which we grow?

[DividedThigh]

that which ceases to grow starts to die, dt

[Rico]

Again this is very simple listen up.
"You can look the part and NOT be the part but you cannot be the part and not look the part.!"
Shout now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:happydance:happydance:happy dance



14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2 Cor 11:14 (KJV)

How does what you are saying fit it with this scripture? Basically, you are saying that somone cannot be evil without looking evil. This scripture says Satan is transformed into an angel of light.

[Pressing-On]

that which ceases to grow starts to die, dt

Right and looking at Romans 6:19 "I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness."

Holiness is defined as - purification and sanctification. Therefore, it's a process.

So can you become more holy or do we just say more consecrated?

[Rico]

Rico,
Interesting question - which scripture?

If He is Holy and He imparts that to us at salvation, why the teaching in the epistles on dress, conduct, etc.?

Doesn't it mean that we go on to perfection/maturity as we follow Christ?

Is the Holiness He imparts to us the end or is it the means by which we grow?

Sister, I have grown weary of reading this "inner holiness will produce outer holiness appearance (meaning lining up with dress standards)" malarky. The light we are supposed to let shine does indeed come from the inside, but the clothes we wear isn't the switch that turns it on or off.

[bkstokes]

Rico,
Interesting question - which scripture?

If He is Holy and He imparts that to us at salvation, why the teaching in the epistles on dress, conduct, etc.?

Doesn't it mean that we go on to perfection/maturity as we follow Christ?

Is the Holiness He imparts to us the end or is it the means by which we grow?

Interesting how we selectively apply some of the NT verses and do not apply others. You know the ones that talk about not wearing expensive clothing.

[bkstokes]

Right and looking at Romans 6:19 "I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness."

Holiness is defined as - purification and sanctification. Therefore, it's a process.

So can you become more holy or do we just say more consecrated?

I see Jesus constantly defining holiness -- as the wholeness of your heart -- not being a divided person but one who loves God supremely and his or her neighbor like ones' self. OUT OF THE HEART FLOWS THE ISSUES OF LIFE.

[Michael Phelps]

Sister, I have grown weary of reading this "inner holiness will produce outer holiness appearance (meaning lining up with dress standards)" malarky. The light we are supposed to let shine does indeed come from the inside, but the clothes we wear isn't the switch that turns it on or off.

Sure they do, Rico, don't you remember what Jesus said to his disciples, "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, by your outward appearance"? Seriously, as we all know, it says that "they have love one to another"

Oh, and there is that little scripture in John 7:24 where Jesus says, "Judge not according to appearance.........." but we conveniently forget that one.

I would challenge anyone to show me a scripture in the Bible that links our inward holiness to our outward appearance.

I'm not talking about modesty vs. immodesty, I'm talking about the "standards" that we hold so dear.

[DividedThigh]

Sure they do, Rico, don't you remember what Jesus said to his disciples, "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, by your outward appearance"? Seriously, as we all know, it says that "they have love one to another"

Oh, and there is that little scripture in John 7:24 where Jesus says, "Judge not according to appearance.........." but we conveniently forget that one.

I would challenge anyone to show me a scripture in the Bible that links our inward holiness to our outward appearance.

I'm not talking about modesty vs. immodesty, I'm talking about the "standards" that we hold so dear.

good post mp, dt

[Pressing-On]

Interesting how we selectively apply some of the NT verses and do not apply others. You know the ones that talk about not wearing expensive clothing.

Well, actually, I do that. I only wear leather shoes and buy leather purses, but I won't purchase them unless they are on sale. We can still look good and be fashionable. It's not hard these days with all the sales going on all the time.

I bought an Anne Klein coat this past winter. Found that on sale for $50 - bargain!

I think quality is the smart way to shop and then you find it on sale. It's ridiculous and a waste of money to buy cheaply made furniture, clothing, shoes, etc. You'll spend more in the long run.

[Pressing-On]

Sister, I have grown weary of reading this "inner holiness will produce outer holiness appearance (meaning lining up with dress standards)" malarky. The light we are supposed to let shine does indeed come from the inside, but the clothes we wear isn't the switch that turns it on or off.

I don't know anyone that is intelligent or has a "sincere" walk with God that believes that, Rico.

If our outward dress wasn't important it would not have been included in the epistles - a woman professing godliness. Notice it also includes "good works".

We understand that the scriptures encompass our behaviour and our outward appearance.

[Cindy]

:kickcan :bubble :bored

[Pressing-On]

]Sure they do, Rico, don't you remember what Jesus said to his disciples, "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, by your outward appearance"?[/B] Seriously, as we all know, it says that "they have love one to another"

Oh, and there is that little scripture in John 7:24 where Jesus says, "Judge not according to appearance.........." but we conveniently forget that one.

I would challenge anyone to show me a scripture in the Bible that links our inward holiness to our outward appearance.

I'm not talking about modesty vs. immodesty, I'm talking about the "standards" that we hold so dear.

Whatever, Michael. Have you read Timothy lately?

[DividedThigh]

cndy you crack me up, often, lol, dt

[Michael Phelps]

Sure they do, Rico, don't you remember what Jesus said to his disciples, "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, by your outward appearance"? Seriously, as we all know, it says that "they have love one to another"

Oh, and there is that little scripture in John 7:24 where Jesus says, "Judge not according to appearance.........." but we conveniently forget that one.

I would challenge anyone to show me a scripture in the Bible that links our inward holiness to our outward appearance.

I'm not talking about modesty vs. immodesty, I'm talking about the "standards" that we hold so dear.

I started thinking after I posted this that I need to make a clarification:

I am not against standards, I do not criticize anyone who adheres to certain standards due to personal preference, and I certainly would never want to be a stumblingblock in the life of a person who felt strongly compelled to abstain from certain practices or appearances that may cause them to falter.

So, please do not accuse me of standard-bashing.

However, let's refer to our standards for what they are - personal choices that aid us in maintaining a consecrated life, not "holiness".

Jesus said, "In vain do you worship me, when you make for DOCTRINE the commandments of men". Jesus didn't have any problem with the man-made commandments, as long as the Pharisees didn't try to tie them to "doctrine".

Once that happened, the Spirit was out of it, and legalism slipped in.

So, please understand my premise - I only get riled when I hear preachers telling folks that they're going to hell over something that the Bible never classifies as a heaven or hell issue.

And, I really get riled up when people think that just because they don't cut their hair, they wear dresses, men don't wear shorts, etc that they've participated in "holiness"!

[Pressing-On]

good post mp, dt

Part of it was good, the first part wasn't. :D

[Michael Phelps]

Whatever, Michael. Have you read Timothy lately?

Sure have.

Is there a scripture in there that ties my inward holiness to my outward appearance? Not counting modesty, of course.

[Rico]

Well, actually, I do that. I only wear leather shoes and buy leather purses, but I won't purchase them unless they are on sale. We can still look good and be fashionable. It's not hard these days with all the sales going on all the time.

I bought an Anne Klein coat this past winter. Found that on sale for $50 - bargain!

I think quality is the smart way to shop and then you find it on sale. It's ridiculous and a waste of money to buy cheaply made furniture, clothing, shoes, etc. You'll spend more in the long run.

I buy cheap furniture because I refuse to spend to spend hard earned money for expensive furniture, knowing there is a good possibility that someone in this house is going to break the rules about eating in the living room or playing on the couch, resulting in damage to the furniture. I paid $60 for the couch we now have. It looked (notice, LOOKED) like new when I got it. It's had kool-aid, soda, and food spilled on it, and got jumped on once that caused something in it to break. Had it been an expensive couch, I'd be in jail now for child abuse.

[Pressing-On]

I buy cheap furniture because I refuse to spend to spend hard earned money for expensive furniture, knowing there is a good possibility that someone in this house is going to break the rules about eating in the living room or playing on the couch, resulting in damage to the furniture. I paid $60 for the couch we now have. It looked (notice, LOOKED) like new when I got it. It's had kool-aid, soda, and food spilled on it, and got jumped on once that caused something in it to break. Had it been an expensive couch, I'd be in jail now for child abuse.
We don't allow feet on the couches or eating in the living room. That solves that problem. I have two dining tables, they can sit there. :D

[bkstokes]

Well, actually, I do that. I only wear leather shoes and buy leather purses, but I won't purchase them unless they are on sale. We can still look good and be fashionable. It's not hard these days with all the sales going on all the time.

I bought an Anne Klein coat this past winter. Found that on sale for $50 - bargain!

I think quality is the smart way to shop and then you find it on sale. It's ridiculous and a waste of money to buy cheaply made furniture, clothing, shoes, etc. You'll spend more in the long run.

I wasn't saying that we shouldn't buy quality things. I was pointing out that in those same verses that it talks about a woman being shamefaced, it talks about not wearing expensive clothing. I see a lot more application with the shamefaced part. Don't you?

[Pressing-On]

Sure have.

Is there a scripture in there that ties my inward holiness to my outward appearance? Not counting modesty, of course.

Modesty is outward appearance. Good grief!

[Pressing-On]

I wasn't saying that we shouldn't buy quality things. I was pointing out that in those same verse that it talks about a woman being shamefaced, it talks about not wearing expensive clothing. I see a lot more application with the shamefaced part. Don't you?

Shamefaced is the idea of downcast eyes and bashfulness. It is simply how we conduct ourselves toward men. We were taught it was speaking about make-up, but that isn't not true.

[LadyRev]

So much about ole Jezzy but nothing about the limp wristed so called man she was married to.

If women in the church that wear makeup or are more bold and outspoken fall into a "jezebel spirit" category then the following can also be said.

Men in the church that wear nylon dress socks (sometimes with designs even) and are more passive and soft spoken must fall into an "effeminant" category.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...

If men in the church didn't have women in the church to judge, criticize, complain and gossip about, they'd simply be bored to tears.

[Rico]

I don't know anyone that is intelligent or has a "sincere" walk with God that believes that, Rico.



Hogwash. There are plenty of people who actually believe all that junk about people going to hell over women not wearing dresses and wearing make-up.

[Pressing-On]

Hogwash. There are plenty of people who actually believe all that junk about people going to hell over women not wearing dresses and wearing make-up.

I'm sure you are right. Notice I said "intelligent" and "sincere" people don't. :D

[Cindy]

So much about ole Jezzy but nothing about the limp wristed so called man she was married to.

If women in the church that wear makeup or are more bold and outspoken fall into a "jezebel spirit" category then the following can also be said.

Men in the church that wear nylon dress socks (sometimes with designs even) and are more passive and soft spoken must fall into an "effeminant" category.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...

If men in the church didn't have women in the church to judge, criticize, complain and gossip about, they'd simply be bored to tears.

:nod :preach :iagree :thumbsup :clap

[Rico]

We don't allow feet on the couches or eating in the living room. That solves that problem. I have two dining tables, they can sit there. :D

Neither do I. Having a rule in place does not mean it is always going to be followed, especially when dealing with small children. My two oldest children have been very good about following the living room rules, but the youngest two are still learning the meaning of the word "don't". We've had the couch for the last two years and the baby is 7.

[Pressing-On]

Neither do I. Having a rule in place does not mean it is always going to be followed, especially when dealing with small children. My two oldest children have been very good about following the living room rules, but the youngest two are still learning the meaning of the word "don't". We've had the couch for the last two years and the baby is 7.
I can see having a problem with toddlers. I'm going to be purchasing a new living room suite and my daughter has informed me they are going to start having a family. At least we trained them not to walk around the house eating.

I had some relatives visit - not naming whose side of the family (lol) - and they were allowing their children to walk around the house eating chocolate covered cookies. I'm walking around cleaning up after them. Lord, that was a long two weeks!!! :toofunny

[Rico]

I can see having a problem with toddlers. I'm going to be purchasing a new living room suite and my daughter has informed me they are going to start having a family. At least we trained them not to walk around the house eating.

I had some relatives visit - not naming whose side of the family (lol) - and they were allowing their children to walk around the house eating chocolate covered cookies. I'm walking around cleaning up after them. Lord, that was a long two weeks!!! :toofunny

:D Well, let's just say the other side of this family was brought up being allowed to do whatever she pretty much wanted to do, so I don't get a whole lot of help in the enforcement department. ;)

[Michael Phelps]

Modesty is outward appearance. Good grief!

Can a woman be modest in a pair of slacks with small earrings in her ears?

[Rico]

Can a woman be modest in a pair of slacks with small earrings in her ears?

Only if she's wearing a blouse too! :toofunny

[Pressing-On]

:D Well, let's just say the other side of this family was brought up being allowed to do whatever she pretty much wanted to do, so I don't get a whole lot of help in the enforcement department. ;)

See? That's the problem. AND this "other side of the family" was given everything!!!

We didn't give our children everything. Sometimes they had to work for things.

Our son has spent one year blowing money - galore!!!! He is now starting to save. He said, "Well, when I was growing up ya'll didn't give me everything I wanted and so I started buying everything I wanted and now I know why you did that. I didn't need it. So now I'm saving my money."

:toofunny

[Baron1710]

Can a woman be modest in a pair of slacks with small earrings in her ears?

Are the slacks red? :happydance

[Cindy]

Only if she's wearing a blouse too! :toofunny

:toofunny

[Michael Phelps]

Let me go ahead and respond to the post that hasn't been posted yet, lol.

The scripture that I'm sure PO is referencing speaks of not being adorned in gold, pearls, the plaiting of the hair, and costly array.

If you consider the time in which this scripture was written, one will understand that braiding gold and pearls into one's hair, and wearing them garishly on the body was an outward sign of wealth. This is what Paul was speaking against.

It's also why James said that if a man comes into the church in fancy apparel, and you give him a seat of authority based on that appearance, you're committing sin!

Now, let's relate that to our generation - what's an outward sign of wealth in our day? It's a man wearing a 1500 dollar suit, a Rolex watch, and driving a Mercedes, among other things. Are those things preached against? Absolutely not!

So, in order to be consistent with scripture, let's define modesty - not the outward showing of one's wealth or prestige.

Now, as a side note, it's always amused me that from Paul's writings to Timothy, we conclude this -

The fancy apparel is ok, the braiding of the hair is ok, but the gold and pearls are a sin - Only if worn in the ears, or on the wrist, unless of course, it's a gold wristwatch.

[Pressing-On]

Let me go ahead and respond to the post that hasn't been posted yet, lol.

The scripture that I'm sure PO is referencing speaks of not being adorned in gold, pearls, the plaiting of the hair, and costly array.



That wasn't my point and if you would get the "standards" chip off of your shoulder you might understand what I was trying to say. I'm not going to explain further because if you didn't get it - you just didn't get it.

I am sick of this shallow discussion on "standards"!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cindy]

Let me go ahead and respond to the post that hasn't been posted yet, lol.

The scripture that I'm sure PO is referencing speaks of not being adorned in gold, pearls, the plaiting of the hair, and costly array.

If you consider the time in which this scripture was written, one will understand that braiding gold and pearls into one's hair, and wearing them garishly on the body was an outward sign of wealth. This is what Paul was speaking against.

It's also why James said that if a man comes into the church in fancy apparel, and you give him a seat of authority based on that appearance, you're committing sin!

Now, let's relate that to our generation - what's an outward sign of wealth in our day? It's a man wearing a 1500 dollar suit, a Rolex watch, and driving a Mercedes, among other things. Are those things preached against? Absolutely not!

So, in order to be consistent with scripture, let's define modesty - not the outward showing of one's wealth or prestige.

Now, as a side note, it's always amused me that from Paul's writings to Timothy, we conclude this -

The fancy apparel is ok, the braiding of the hair is ok, but the gold and pearls are a sin - Only if worn in the ears, or on the wrist, unless of course, it's a gold wristwatch.

:nod :thumbsup :preach :iagree :clap

[Michael Phelps]

That wasn't my point and if you would get the "standards" chip off of your shoulder you might understand what I was trying to say. I'm not going to explain further because if you didn't get it - you just didn't get it.

I am sick of this shallow discussion on "standards"!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, forgive me, PO, what did you mean when you asked if I'd read Timothy lately?

[Pressing-On]

Well, forgive me, PO, what did you mean when you asked if I'd read Timothy lately?

Nothing. I just asked because I don't have anything else to do.

[MissBrattified]

I believe in being modest. I just don't believe that it is the ultimate test of Christianity, and I get tired of being judged or looking at other people and having to stop myself from judging them based on what I've been conditioned to believe about outward appearance.

Recently one of my nieces told me about a wonderful spiritual experience she had at Youth camp, and believe it or not, the cynical side of me was saying "Yeah, right" inside my head--simply because they don't keep standards. I had to correct myself inwardly and do a personal "How dare you", regarding questioning someone else's experience with God--based on what they WEAR. Btw, they are Apostolic in doctrine. :)

What's crazy about it, is the LOGICAL side of me doesn't even buy into the modesty=spirituality mess, but I obviously have been influenced more than I realize by some things that have been taught.

On the flip side, of COURSE I believe modesty is important. I believe it is important to GOD, though, only from the perspective that we prefer our brother, and treat them with respect, e.g., don't eat meat in front of a vegan. Application: Don't flash your cleavage to a brother. (or non-brother)

Modest in this culture is certainly not the same as modest in Jesus' day, but the principles are the same. I think we can all agree that you don't dress in such a way that causes others to lust, but yet we also understand that someone who has a corrupt mind is going to lust no matter what you have on. I think we can agree that we shouldn't spend obscene amounts of money on apparel, but at the same time, I agree with PO that being a good steward also means investing in quality items.

This is not a simple topic, and it is OVERLY simplistic to say that a person who isn't modest isn't holy, or that a person who is holy WILL be modest. Again, according to whom?

[Michael Phelps]

Nothing. I just asked because I don't have anything else to do.

I would love to discuss this with you, if you'll tell me what you meant.

[SDG]

I believe in being modest. I just don't believe that it is the ultimate test of Christianity, and I get tired of being judged or looking at other people and having to stop myself from judging them based on what I've been conditioned to believe about outward appearance.

Recently one of my nieces told me about a wonderful spiritual experience she had at Youth camp, and believe it or not, the cynical side of me was saying "Yeah, right" inside my head--simply because they don't keep standards. I had to correct myself inwardly and do a personal "How dare you", regarding questioning someone else's experience with God--based on what they WEAR. Btw, they are Apostolic in doctrine. :)

What's crazy about it, is the LOGICAL side of me doesn't even buy into the modesty=spirituality mess, but I obviously have been influenced more than I realize by some things that have been taught.

On the flip side, of COURSE I believe modesty is important. I believe it is important to GOD, though, only from the perspective that we prefer our brother, and treat them with respect, e.g., don't eat meat in front of a vegan. Application: Don't flash your cleavage to a brother. (or non-brother)

Modest in this culture is certainly not the same as modest in Jesus' day, but the principles are the same. I think we can all agree that you don't dress in such a way that causes others to lust, but yet we also understand that someone who has a corrupt mind is going to lust no matter what you have on. I think we can agree that we shouldn't spend obscene amounts of money on apparel, but at the same time, I agree with PO that being a good steward also means investing in quality items.

This is not a simple topic, and it is OVERLY simplistic to say that a person who isn't modest isn't holy, or that a person who is holy WILL be modest. Again, according to whom?

This post may have just bumped you from Womens' Pastor to Associate Pastor.

[rgcraig]

I think I know who has the standards chip on their shoulder.

[SDG]

I think I know who has the standards chip on their shoulder.

Do chips come in one size fits all?

[mizpeh]

I believe in being modest. I just don't believe that it is the ultimate test of Christianity, and I get tired of being judged or looking at other people and having to stop myself from judging them based on what I've been conditioned to believe about outward appearance.

Recently one of my nieces told me about a wonderful spiritual experience she had at Youth camp, and believe it or not, the cynical side of me was saying "Yeah, right" inside my head--simply because they don't keep standards. I had to correct myself inwardly and do a personal "How dare you", regarding questioning someone else's experience with God--based on what they WEAR. Btw, they are Apostolic in doctrine. :)

What's crazy about it, is the LOGICAL side of me doesn't even buy into the modesty=spirituality mess, but I obviously have been influenced more than I realize by some things that have been taught.

On the flip side, of COURSE I believe modesty is important. I believe it is important to GOD, though, only from the perspective that we prefer our brother, and treat them with respect, e.g., don't eat meat in front of a vegan. Application: Don't flash your cleavage to a brother. (or non-brother)

Modest in this culture is certainly not the same as modest in Jesus' day, but the principles are the same. I think we can all agree that you don't dress in such a way that causes others to lust, but yet we also understand that someone who has a corrupt mind is going to lust no matter what you have on. I think we can agree that we shouldn't spend obscene amounts of money on apparel, but at the same time, I agree with PO that being a good steward also means investing in quality items.

This is not a simple topic, and it is OVERLY simplistic to say that a person who isn't modest isn't holy, or that a person who is holy WILL be modest. Again, according to whom?

Excellent post!:bliss

[Cindy]

:blah :blah :blah :blah

[MissBrattified]

This post may have just bumped you from Womens' Pastor to Associate Pastor.

I don't know how this happened. LOL! Maybe vacation did me good! :D

I could never be a "pastor" of any sort--you won't believe this (maybe) but I am a TERRIBLE public speaker. I hyperventilate, or simply stop breathing altogether. I hate to testify, and can't stand making even an announcement. It's all I can do to introduce the choir sometimes. No exaggeration, either--I've had my pastor sit on the front row during a local music seminar and mouth the word "Breathe" to me while I taught a class!

No, I have to sing it, or write it, or say it around the dinner table. LOL!!!!! Maybe in a small group setting, as long as I can sit down. :D

[Elizabeth]

It's funny because the spirit of Jezebel can be so subtle that you don't even realize that is what it is until that person has caused so much grief and pain.

What's even stranger the people who have caused Keith and I the most trouble have the "look".

The last woman who tried to control the church, because that is the ultimate goal is to control the ministry for their own gain and power. She was soft spoken, easy going and seemed so so sweet. But it was just a front to use us for her own advantage.

A Jezebel can literally be a parasite-sorry to be so blunt. But when they are done with their host, they go find someone else to feed on. All to get their way, have their influence until you figure them out.

This woman wanted so bad to have a traveling music ministry she almost did anything to get it, call our ministry friends and ask to sing at their churches, call evangelist to offer to travel with them and at our own church had to be front and center because music was her "passion". All the while we received so many complaints about her talent it became unbearable.


But the spirit of Jezebel has nothing to do with the outside, that can even fool you--it can come in any package. But untimate goal is controll.

[SDG]

I don't know how this happened. LOL! Maybe vacation did me good! :D

I could never be a "pastor" of any sort--you won't believe this (maybe) but I am a TERRIBLE public speaker. I hyperventilate, or simply stop breathing altogether. I hate to testify, and can't stand making even an announcement. It's all I can do to introduce the choir sometimes. No exaggeration, either--I've had my pastor sit on the front row during a local music seminar and mouth the word "Breathe" to me while I taught a class!

No, I have to sing it, or write it, or say it around the dinner table. LOL!!!!! Maybe in a small group setting, as long as I can sit down. :D

Sounds like Exodus 3 and 4 ....

What do you have in your hand?

You are among the wisest, articulate, knowledgeable, bible savvy and clearest thinkers on this forum. ... and very pastoral in your delivery while still being a straight shooter

Just an observation, Annie.

[Pressing-On]

I would love to discuss this with you, if you'll tell me what you meant.

I apologize to you.

I'm not going to discuss this because the conversation always spirals back down to - the dress or pants issue. :gaga

It goes much deeper than that and it gets lost every time. I don't have the time, temperament or inclination to become involved in it anymore.

I'm sure you understand where I am coming from when I asked you about your belief on Acts 2:38. You said you were not going to discuss that on the open forum.

So, I feel the same way about this issue. It gets misunderstood every time and I just get aggravated - obviously.

[DividedThigh]

I believe in being modest. I just don't believe that it is the ultimate test of Christianity, and I get tired of being judged or looking at other people and having to stop myself from judging them based on what I've been conditioned to believe about outward appearance.

Recently one of my nieces told me about a wonderful spiritual experience she had at Youth camp, and believe it or not, the cynical side of me was saying "Yeah, right" inside my head--simply because they don't keep standards. I had to correct myself inwardly and do a personal "How dare you", regarding questioning someone else's experience with God--based on what they WEAR. Btw, they are Apostolic in doctrine. :)

What's crazy about it, is the LOGICAL side of me doesn't even buy into the modesty=spirituality mess, but I obviously have been influenced more than I realize by some things that have been taught.

On the flip side, of COURSE I believe modesty is important. I believe it is important to GOD, though, only from the perspective that we prefer our brother, and treat them with respect, e.g., don't eat meat in front of a vegan. Application: Don't flash your cleavage to a brother. (or non-brother)

Modest in this culture is certainly not the same as modest in Jesus' day, but the principles are the same. I think we can all agree that you don't dress in such a way that causes others to lust, but yet we also understand that someone who has a corrupt mind is going to lust no matter what you have on. I think we can agree that we shouldn't spend obscene amounts of money on apparel, but at the same time, I agree with PO that being a good steward also means investing in quality items.

This is not a simple topic, and it is OVERLY simplistic to say that a person who isn't modest isn't holy, or that a person who is holy WILL be modest. Again, according to whom?

right on miss b, good words, i agree, dt

[Pressing-On]

I believe in being modest. I just don't believe that it is the ultimate test of Christianity, and I get tired of being judged or looking at other people and having to stop myself from judging them based on what I've been conditioned to believe about outward appearance.

Recently one of my nieces told me about a wonderful spiritual experience she had at Youth camp, and believe it or not, the cynical side of me was saying "Yeah, right" inside my head--simply because they don't keep standards. I had to correct myself inwardly and do a personal "How dare you", regarding questioning someone else's experience with God--based on what they WEAR. Btw, they are Apostolic in doctrine. :)

What's crazy about it, is the LOGICAL side of me doesn't even buy into the modesty=spirituality mess, but I obviously have been influenced more than I realize by some things that have been taught.

On the flip side, of COURSE I believe modesty is important. I believe it is important to GOD, though, only from the perspective that we prefer our brother, and treat them with respect, e.g., don't eat meat in front of a vegan. Application: Don't flash your cleavage to a brother. (or non-brother)

Modest in this culture is certainly not the same as modest in Jesus' day, but the principles are the same. I think we can all agree that you don't dress in such a way that causes others to lust, but yet we also understand that someone who has a corrupt mind is going to lust no matter what you have on. I think we can agree that we shouldn't spend obscene amounts of money on apparel, but at the same time, I agree with PO that being a good steward also means investing in quality items.

This is not a simple topic, and it is OVERLY simplistic to say that a person who isn't modest isn't holy, or that a person who is holy WILL be modest. Again, according to whom?

I think that we always need to keep in mind that God is building us - His church- continually. As each individual is unique and has a responsibility to answer whatever deep call God has placed on them. All the while knowing that He is not a respecter of persons, keeping us from becoming high minded.

We don't know where He will lead us in one year, two, five, ten. We have to be reaching, personally, for the mark of the high calling of Christ.

For me, I can't get my life defined by opinions on a Forum Board or even an individual at church. I must be lead by the Spirit.

We can't draw a line in the sand either way and say - This is the way we should walk on this issue. It will always be personal convictions.

That's all I am trying to say.

[MissBrattified]

I think that we always need to keep in mind that God is building us - His church- continually. As each individual is unique and has a responsibility to answer whatever deep call God has placed on them. All the while knowing that He is not a respecter of persons, keeping us from becoming high minded.

We don't know where He will lead us in one year, two, five, ten. We have to be reaching, personally, for the mark of the high calling of Christ.

For me, I can't get my life defined by opinions on a Forum Board or even an individual at church. I must be lead by the Spirit.

We can't draw a line in the sand either way and say - This is the way we should walk on this issue. It will always be personal convictions.

That's all I am trying to say.

I agree.

[rgcraig]

I think that we always need to keep in mind that God is building us - His church- continually. As each individual is unique and has a responsibility to answer whatever deep call God has placed on them. All the while knowing that He is not a respecter of persons, keeping us from becoming high minded.

We don't know where He will lead us in one year, two, five, ten. We have to be reaching, personally, for the mark of the high calling of Christ.

For me, I can't get my life defined by opinions on a Forum Board or even an individual at church. I must be lead by the Spirit.

We can't draw a line in the sand either way and say - This is the way we should walk on this issue. It will always be personal convictions.

That's all I am trying to say.Maybe this is the disconnect - - not sure the opinions on a forum are trying to define your life. They are just opinions just as your opinions are yours.

They are personal convictions, but discussing them doesn't take that away.

I learn something from each discussion we have around - - might just be the intolerance of some, but I learn something.

[Pressing-On]

I agree.
Amen.

[Pressing-On]

Maybe this is the disconnect - - not sure the opinions on a forum are trying to define your life. They are just opinions just as your opinions are yours.

They are personal convictions, but discussing them doesn't take that away.

I learn something from each discussion we have around - - might just be the intolerance of some, but I learn something.
Thank you for your post. I have some things I was going to say, but I think I'll refrain. After all, it's all been said.

[Michael Phelps]

I apologize to you.

I'm not going to discuss this because the conversation always spirals back down to - the dress or pants issue. :gaga

It goes much deeper than that and it gets lost every time. I don't have the time, temperament or inclination to become involved in it anymore.

I'm sure you understand where I am coming from when I asked you about your belief on Acts 2:38. You said you were not going to discuss that on the open forum.

So, I feel the same way about this issue. It gets misunderstood every time and I just get aggravated - obviously.


PO, I respect your right to decline the discussion.

I was just curious as to what you meant when you said "Have you read Timothy lately"?

Usually when someone says that, they have a point they want to discuss, but if you choose not to discuss it any further, I'll honor that.

My point still remains - holiness and outward standards are not mutually inclusive, and while I respect someone who holds an outward standard of dress (and I don't mean just being modest) I always want to keep it in the forefront of the discussion that there is a difference in "standards and holiness.

Just stating my point for the record, lol.

[Rico]

I think that we always need to keep in mind that God is building us - His church- continually.

Amen. People forget that Jesus said, "Upon this rock I will build my church. They think it's their job to build it.

As each individual is unique and has a responsibility to answer whatever deep call God has placed on them. All the while knowing that He is not a respecter of persons, keeping us from becoming high minded.

True. With the exception of the "entrance requirements" I don't believe God is aiming for cookie cutter Christianity. I've been thinking about cloven tongues lately, how each individual person receives the Holy Ghost for themselves, to shape them individually. While I believe the fullness of the measure of the stature of Christ is the goal for all of us, how we get there is an individual journey.

We don't know where He will lead us in one year, two, five, ten. We have to be reaching, personally, for the mark of the high calling of Christ.

For me, I can't get my life defined by opinions on a Forum Board or even an individual at church. I must be lead by the Spirit.

I agree. Maybe at times you feel as if your definitions are being challenged by the opinions on these forums? Maybe things you felt are set in stone are sometimes rattled by the things you read?

We can't draw a line in the sand either way and say - This is the way we should walk on this issue. It will always be personal convictions.

That's all I am trying to say.

Personal conviction is the only way to go on stuff like this.

[Steve Epley]

MOst churches are filled with Jezebels were are talking about painted faced women ain't we?:bliss:bliss:bliss

[revrandy]

The Jezebel spirit is not often recognized outwardly....

[Rico]

MOst churches are filled with Jezebels were are talking about painted faced women ain't we?:bliss:bliss:bliss

This video shows a woman being delivered from being a Jezebel.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=wM7a2Zrj3dU

[Michael Phelps]

The Jezebel spirit is not often recognized outwardly....

This is the absolute truth, my friend.

Without giving too much away, the woman who gave me the most trouble when I was pastoring had actually written some books on "holiness".

[Pressing-On]

Personal conviction is the only way to go on stuff like this.

Maybe at times you feel as if your definitions are being challenged by the opinions on these forums? Maybe things you felt are set in stone are sometimes rattled by the things you read?

Not really challenged. But I will be very pointed.

I see some as holding standards and those that are against them failing God miserably and so neither person was the example of what God really wanted.

I hope you understand what I am saying.

[Rico]

Not really challenged. But I will be very pointed.

I see some as holding standards and those that are against them failing God miserably and so neither person was the example of what God really wanted.

I hope you understand what I am saying.

Yes. The message gets lost in the delivery.

[Michael Phelps]

Not really challenged. But I will be very pointed.

I see some as holding standards and those that are against them failing God miserably and so neither person was the example of what God really wanted.
I hope you understand what I am saying.

I don't understand this statement.......could you please clarify?

[Pressing-On]

Yes. The message gets lost in the delivery.

Right. Lost in translation. Sometimes we have to pick it out as it goes along. :D

[rgcraig]

Not really challenged. But I will be very pointed.

I see some as holding standards and those that are against them failing God miserably and so neither person was the example of what God really wanted.

I hope you understand what I am saying.

So you are disappointed.

[Pressing-On]

I don't understand this statement.......could you please clarify?

Well, Michael, it reads like what it means. Read it again. That is what really upsets me.

[Pressing-On]

So you are disappointed.

Yes, for both sides.

[rgcraig]

That statement said - - she sees people that hold standards and then people that don't hold them disappointing God.

[Pressing-On]

That statement said - - she sees people that hold standards and then people that don't hold them disappointing God.

Yes. I don't mean each group as a whole, but individuals.

[rgcraig]

Yes.

Could that be because it has NOTHING to do with standards, but all about holiness?

[Pressing-On]

Could that be because it has NOTHING to do with standards, but all about holiness?

Of course. Therefore, the argument of being for or against then becomes and has become ridiculous.

[Michael Phelps]

Well, Michael, it reads like what it means. Read it again. That is what really upsets me.

When I originally read your statement, it read like this to me: "I see some holding standards, and those who are against them failing God miserably........" My first inclination was that you were saying some were holding standards, but those who were against them were failing God miserably........

Now, I see what you're saying, and I agree with you.

[Michael Phelps]

Of course. Therefore, the argument of being for or against then becomes and has become ridiculous.

Well, we agree on this!

But, to many, the argument "for or against standards" is anything but ridiculous.

The standards are the issue, not the holiness of the heart, which is the TRUE issue.

[Elizabeth]

The Jezebel spirit is not often recognized outwardly....

This is what I was trying to say, but my little ole post was passed over-:tissue

[LadyRev]

It's funny because the spirit of Jezebel can be so subtle that you don't even realize that is what it is until that person has caused so much grief and pain.

What's even stranger the people who have caused Keith and I the most trouble have the "look".

The last woman who tried to control the church, because that is the ultimate goal is to control the ministry for their own gain and power. She was soft spoken, easy going and seemed so so sweet. But it was just a front to use us for her own advantage.

A Jezebel can literally be a parasite-sorry to be so blunt. But when they are done with their host, they go find someone else to feed on. All to get their way, have their influence until you figure them out.

This woman wanted so bad to have a traveling music ministry she almost did anything to get it, call our ministry friends and ask to sing at their churches, call evangelist to offer to travel with them and at our own church had to be front and center because music was her "passion". All the while we received so many complaints about her talent it became unbearable.


But the spirit of Jezebel has nothing to do with the outside, that can even fool you--it can come in any package. But untimate goal is controll.

The Jezebel spirit you have described is definitely not limited to females.

Its the same spirit that gets ahold of a man and causes him to "lord over" the flock rather than shepherding the flock.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Jeanie View Post
It's funny because the spirit of Jezebel can be so subtle that you don't even realize that is what it is until that person has caused so much grief and pain.

What's even stranger the people who have caused Keith and I the most trouble have the "look".

1-2-3-4 walking like a man
Hitting like a hammer
She's a juvenile scam
Never was a quitter
Tasty like a raindrop
She's got the look

Heavenly bound
Cause heaven's got a number
When she's spinning me around
Kissing is a colour
Her loving is a wild dog
she's got the look

She's got the look (She's got the look) She's got the look (She's got the look)
What in the world can make a brown-eyed girl turn blue
When everything I'll ever do I'll do for you
And I go la la la la la she's got the look


Fire in the ice
Naked to the t-bone
Is a lover's disguise
Banging on the head drum
Shaking like a mad bull
She's got the look

Swaying to the band
Moving like a hammer
She's a miracle man
Loving is the ocean
Kissing is the wet sand
She's got the look

She's got the look (She's got the look) She's got the look (She's got the look)
What in the world can make a brown-eyed girl turn blue
When everything I'll ever do I'll do for you
And I go la la la la la she's got the look

walking like a man
Hitting like a hammer
She's a juvenile scam
Never was a quitter
Tasty like a raindrop
She's got the look

She goes na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na
na na na na She's got the look

She's got the look (She's got the look) She's got the look (She's got the look)
What in the world can make a brown-eyed girl turn blue
When everything I'll ever do I'll do for you
And I go la la la la la she's got the look

What in the world can make you so blue
When everything I'll ever do I'll do for you
And I go la la la la la

[rgcraig]

LOL - - did anyone notice the ad at the top of the Fellowship Hall.

It's about the Jezeble Spirit!!

http://www.jonasclark.com/news/123/ARTICLE/1103/2008-03-11.html?gclid=CI-Pk6_R3ZMCFQqLggodECGnYw

[DividedThigh]

my goodness she is here, lol

[jaxfam6]

You know Daniel I thought I saw a Jezebel at church the other night and I was wrong. She was simply visiting from your church over in Texas.

:happydance:happydance:bliss:bliss

j/k

[SDG]

You know Daniel I thought I saw a Jezebel at church the other night and I was wrong. She was simply visiting from your church over in Texas.

:happydance:happydance:bliss:bliss

j/k

This is the thread I apparently admitted that I don't the gift of discernment ...

Not sure where said that .... Jax can you find it for me?

Jezzy was last seen on a plane to Belize.

[Sherri]

We have dealt with the Jezebel Spirit before; it's not fun. I have studied it quite a bit. Jezebel's purpose was to shut the mouth of the prophet and thwart the work of God - she loved control. Mostly we have seen this manifest in women, but sometimes in men. It's a nasty thing to battle against!

I know some people don't believe in this stuff, but our experience lets us know that it's real.

[SDG]

We have dealt with the Jezebel Spirit before; it's not fun. I have studied it quite a bit. Jezebel's purpose was to shut the mouth of the prophet and thwart the work of God - she loved control. Mostly we have seen this manifest in women, but sometimes in men. It's a nasty thing to battle against!

I know some people don't believe in this stuff, but our experience lets us know that it's real.

See my first ... post ...

Easy to recognize ... when using the Word of God and not extrabiblical paradigms

[Sherri]

See my first ... post ...

Easy to recognize ... when using the Word of God and not extrabiblical paradigms
I did read it and I totally agree.

[freeatlast]

We have dealt with the Jezebel Spirit before; it's not fun. I have studied it quite a bit. Jezebel's purpose was to shut the mouth of the prophet and thwart the work of God - she loved control. Mostly we have seen this manifest in women, but sometimes in men. It's a nasty thing to battle against!

I know some people don't believe in this stuff, but our experience lets us know that it's real.

I'm sure in a thread of this magnitude, it has allready been pointed out that Jezebel and her spirit had nothing whatsoever to do with a woman today wearing makeup, jewelry, or how she wears her hair.

It's amazing, the things we OP's say something means to prove our preconcieved notions.

[SDG]

I'm sure in a thread of this magnitude, it has allready been pointed out that Jezebel and her spirit had nothing whatsoever to do with a woman today wearing makeup, jewelry, or how she wears her hair.

It's amazing, the things we OP's say something means to prove our preconcieved notions.

Absolutely ... I believe it's used in a derogatory and degrading way towards women to manipulate them into not fixing themselves up ....

[Sherri]

Absolutely ... I believe it's used in a derogatory and degrading way towards women to manipulate them into not fixing themselves up ....
Jezebel's ugly spirit would have bled through, even if she had been pale-faced and wore her hair up in a bun and sleeves to her wrists. It had nothing to do with the way she looked.

[jaxfam6]

This is the thread I apparently admitted that I don't the gift of discernment ...

Not sure where said that .... Jax can you find it for me?

Jezzy was last seen on a plane to Belize.

She better be careful down there. She might get swept out to sea with all the flooding they have going on.

[Rico]

Jezebel's ugly spirit would have bled through, even if she had been pale-faced and wore her hair up in a bun and sleeves to her wrists. It had nothing to do with the way she looked.

I agree. However, I think what some of the no make up crowd is proposing is that Jezebel used all that make up as part of her scheme. So, in order to not be confused for someone who is a Jezebel, women should not wear make up.

[Nahum]

My wife doesn't wear make-up, jewelry or cut her hair and I have never "manipulated" her into believing she will split the pit if she does.

Simple truth is she is a very conservative and godly woman.

[SDG]

My wife doesn't wear make-up, jewelry or cut her hair and I have never "manipulated" her into believing she will split the pit if she does.

Simple truth is she is a very conservative and godly woman.

I believe one can teach/believe these convictions without the misapplication of Jezebel .... or implying a woman is akin to a prostitute instead of a princess of the Most High.

[jaxfam6]

This is the thread I apparently admitted that I don't the gift of discernment ...

Not sure where said that .... Jax can you find it for me?

Jezzy was last seen on a plane to Belize.

Entry # 32 he makes an assumption on what you ask about if a minister does not have the gift of discernment. We all know what assuming does.

As for you actually saying you don't...... well, you never did say that.

But while we are on the subject there are a lot of things that don't take discernment. A bad attitude, an angry attitude, hate, disrespect, and actually a Jezebel. If you have to rely on discernment to help you figure every thing out then you better start praying God give you plain ole common sense. (not directed at you DA)

[SDG]

Entry # 32 he makes an assumption on what you ask about if a minister does not have the gift of discernment. We all know what assuming does.

So he doesn't have invite himself over? You're a good decoder, Jax.

[SDG]

Entry # 32 he makes an assumption on what you ask about if a minister does not have the gift of discernment. We all know what assuming does.

As for you actually saying you don't...... well, you never did say that.

But while we are on the subject there are a lot of things that don't take discernment. A bad attitude, an angry attitude, hate, disrespect, and actually a Jezebel. If you have to rely on discernment to help you figure every thing out then you better start praying God give you plain ole common sense. (not directed at you DA)

Absolutely .... God gives us a blueprint to not only about how to live our lives but to know how to interact w/ other and the world ... through His Word.

Also, as Matt said in this thread ... we are to "test the spirits".

I believe also if one has God's Spirit ... there will be an ability to readily distinguish what is of God and what is not when we are sensitive to His direction.

Not as dynamic or refined as the gift we are speaking about.

[jaxfam6]

Absolutely .... God gives us a blueprint to not only about how to live our lives but to know how to interact w/ other and the world ... through His Word.

Also, as Matt said in this thread ... we are to "test the spirits".

I believe also if one has God's Spirit ... there will be an ability to readily distinguish what is of God and what is not when we are sensitive to His direction.
Not as dynamic or refined as the gift we are speaking about.

Something many do not understand. I believe when I meet some people that the Spirit of God in me helps me to know if that person is really of Him or not. That I do not believe is discernment. It is a great side affect of having His Spirit though. People are not taught to use it though.

[RandyWayne]

I have said that I can "Spot a Jezebel just like <snaps finger> ..that!".

A similar line has kept me out of jury duty my whole life!

[Rico]

I have said that I can "Spot a Jezebel just like <snaps finger> ..that!".

A similar line has kept me out of jury duty my whole life!

U show up for jury duty with make up on? No wonder they won't let you serve!!:D