Have You Been to WWPF Lately?

[Consapostolic1]

Has anyone visited the worldwide pentecostal fellowship website recently? They've updated the layout which looks pretty cool and they now have the photos from Stronger Together posted. Their is also a link to the information regarding PEAK(the national WWPF youth conference), which will be preached by Bro. Jason Calhoun and Evg. Cody Marks?

[1Corinth2v4]

Has anyone visited the worldwide pentecostal fellowship website recently? They've updated the layout which looks pretty cool and they now have the photos from Stronger Together posted. Their is also a link to the information regarding PEAK(the national WWPF youth conference), which will be preached by Bro. Jason Calhoun and Evg. Cody Marks?

No, let me take a peek.

[CC1]

ContipatedApostolic,

Thanks for the update. I will check it out!

[Consapostolic1]

ContipatedApostolic,

Thanks for the update. I will check it out!

hehehe...uhmmm No, not funny

[StillStanding]

Is the WWPF still around? :tic

[Baron1710]

Is it too much to ask to have them put up a video or two from that Branson meeting?

[CC1]

Is it too much to ask to have them put up a video or two from that Branson meeting?

ROFL!!!! Don't you know that most of those folks probably think a video camera pointed at you steals your soul????!!!!! (just like the natives in Africa).

[Baron1710]

ROFL!!!! Don't you know that most of those folks probably think a video camera pointed at you steals your soul????!!!!! (just like the natives in Africa).

This picture is on their website from the Branson meeting, not sure what’s going on but my guess is they are about to get booted for those red dresses.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/AFFpost/image_00119.jpg

[chosenbyone]

This picture is on their website from the Branson meeting, not sure what’s going on but my guess is they are about to get booted for those red dresses.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/AFFpost/image_00119.jpg

:toofunny

Happy looking group! :TulsaNO:

[CC1]

This picture is on their website from the Branson meeting, not sure what’s going on but my guess is they are about to get booted for those red dresses.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/AFFpost/image_00119.jpg

LOL!!!! I wonder if the audio that went with them standing went something like "We would like any women wearing that jezebel color of red to please stand up and wait to be escorted from he building!"

[Brother Price]

This picture is on their website from the Branson meeting, not sure what’s going on but my guess is they are about to get booted for those red dresses.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/AFFpost/image_00119.jpg
Where are the smiles??? Anyone smiling??? Anybody??? Hello?

[Pennycostul]

Honestly I dont think I would want that pic on my front page of pics as they dont look happy at all. In fact, No one in that pic has a very good look on there face.

Some friends of mine went and they are great people.The are thinking about pulling from the UPC and joining WWPF They are smilin people so maybe they should have been placed on the site LOL:happydance.

[MissBrattified]

1. There's nothing wrong with a serious moment. LOL!!! Ya'll are nitpicking, and I think you know it.

2. There are quite a few pictures on that site with smiles and laughter.

Let's not get carried away trying to find fault. It isn't anymore attractive on a liberal than on a conservative.

Obviously those are candid photos. My goodness, here awhile back our drama dept. did a little presentation, and in every photo, I have some kind of scrunched up, weird facial expression (different in every one, but none of them pleasant). I'm not sure how that happened, but the photographer just happened to catch me at some "intense" moments.

Doesn't mean I'm not a happy person! :) Or that I never look pleasant for that matter. Kind of like getting caught on film shoveling in a mouthful of food doesn't mean you're a glutton.

[Baron1710]

1. There's nothing wrong with a serious moment. LOL!!! Ya'll are nitpicking, and I think you know it.

2. There are quite a few pictures on that site with smiles and laughter.

Let's not get carried away trying to find fault. It isn't anymore attractive on a liberal than on a conservative.

Obviously those are candid photos. My goodness, here awhile back our drama dept. did a little presentation, and in every photo, I have some kind of scrunched up, weird facial expression (different in every one, but none of them pleasant). I'm not sure how that happened, but the photographer just happened to catch me at some "intense" moments.

Doesn't mean I'm not a happy person! :) Or that I never look pleasant for that matter. Kind of like getting caught on film shoveling in a mouthful of food doesn't mean you're a glutton.


I did notice the unhappy faces but what struck me was the only two ladies standing were in red. I just couldn't resist, it was too perfect. You see what happens when you leave the UPC? You begin to let those standards go. They haven’t been gone no time and already dressing like harlots. :tic

[MissBrattified]

I did notice the unhappy faces but what struck me was the only two ladies standing were in red. I just couldn't resist, it was too perfect. You see what happens when you leave the UPC? You begin to let those standards go. They haven’t been gone no time and already dressing like harlots. :tic



LOL!!! Hey, I understand...my sisters and my Dad were singing at an AMF event(or church) years ago, and my Dad couldn't understand why no one was responding to the music. The whole crowd was sitting like statues, no response.

My Dad had just bought my older sister (it was PJ, CC1) a beautiful red dress, which she was wearing on the platform. So, inny waze...my Dad turns around to the pastor and (quietly) asks what the problem is, to which the pastor replied, "We believe only whores wear red."

My Dad was REALLY mad about that...LOL!!!!!

But...I don't think the red dress thing was ever in the UPC...was it? I thought that was a purely AMF/ultra-con thing.

[Baron1710]

LOL!!! Hey, I understand...my sisters and my Dad were singing at an AMF event(or church) years ago, and my Dad couldn't understand why no one was responding to the music. The whole crowd was sitting like statues, no response.

My Dad had just bought my older sister (it was PJ, CC1) a beautiful red dress, which she was wearing on the platform. So, inny waze...my Dad turns around to the pastor and (quietly) asks what the problem is, to which the pastor replied, "We believe only whores wear red."

My Dad was REALLY mad about that...LOL!!!!!

But...I don't think the red dress thing was ever in the UPC...was it? I thought that was a purely AMF/ultra-con thing.

It was there at some point because my parents were aware of it and the UPC was all they knew, (other than my mom's family is AG). I was shocked the first time I heard it. piggy backing on another thread I will text her and ask her, but she is on the West Coast so it may be awhile before she responds.

[CC1]

1. There's nothing wrong with a serious moment. LOL!!! Ya'll are nitpicking, and I think you know it.

2. There are quite a few pictures on that site with smiles and laughter.

Let's not get carried away trying to find fault. It isn't anymore attractive on a liberal than on a conservative.

Obviously those are candid photos. My goodness, here awhile back our drama dept. did a little presentation, and in every photo, I have some kind of scrunched up, weird facial expression (different in every one, but none of them pleasant). I'm not sure how that happened, but the photographer just happened to catch me at some "intense" moments.

Doesn't mean I'm not a happy person! :) Or that I never look pleasant for that matter. Kind of like getting caught on film shoveling in a mouthful of food doesn't mean you're a glutton.


I don't think we were nitpicking. Just having a little fun with a pic. Those ladies could have been standing in remremberance of loved ones who died for all we know so the sad faces could be entirely appropriate.

It was more the sad faces combined with the co-incidence of them both wearing red dresses that made the imagination run wild with possible captions about these women in red at an ultra con meeting!

[Rico]

LOL! Y'all ain't right! I couldn't help but notice the half poof thing the one lady has. Whazzzup wit dat? :D

[Pennycostul]

Oh come on Miss Brattfield lighten up a little. I maybe one of the people in that pic Im chuckling about.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

ConApo,

Has your assembly's pastor joined the WPF?
Does anyone know if Bro. Smith from Brewer, ME joined? I was at his church's conference, Heritage, last month- did I go to a WPF conference and not know it?! lol

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Consapostolic1]

ConApo,

Has your assembly's pastor joined the WPF?
Does anyone know if Bro. Smith from Brewer, ME joined? I was at his church's conference, Heritage, last month- did I go to a WPF conference and not know it?! lol

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

I recently switched to a UPC church but my former pastor did join the WPF and happens to be on line to speak at the AMC conf. next year.

[tstew]

I was struck by the lack of diversity in the many pics I saw. I am not just talking about ethnic diversity, but in every way there seems to be a very narrow demographic...age, race, etc.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

I recently switched to a UPC church but my former pastor did join the WPF and happens to be on line to speak at the AMC conf. next year.

AMC, a WPFer, wow? Who was your pastor? Did you move or just decide to go UPC?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Sept5SavedTeen]

I was struck by the lack of diversity in the many pics I saw. I am not just talking about ethnic diversity, but in every way there seems to be a very narrow demographic...age, race, etc.

White skin, gray heads- I said the obvious. Bro. Solomon and his wife from Ethiopia were there, though, I saw them at Heritage. Was Eld. Ballestero at Stronger Together too?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Tim Rutledge]

Hello, this is my first time ever posting anything. I was at the conference in Branson. I believe the fellowship goes by WPF not WWPF. We've recently pulled out of the UPC, my home Church is in Buchanan MI. I was looking something up online and came across this Apostolic Friends Fellowship and it looked interesting. Then I saw Elder Steve Epley leaves post here so I decided to register. I highly respect this elder. The meeting in Branson MO. was very balanced. I guess by most peoples standards I'm considered far to the right on about all issues. Its very easy to dwell on negatives.. and I know I can find fault with anything or anyone if I'm looking for it. The Executive council of the WPF is top notch. I question anyones integrity or intelligence who would criticize these Elders. Unless of course you've done more for the Kingdom then they have. Lord willing I'll be at the confernce in '09. And hopefully I can make it to the AMC conference in Nashville also.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Hello, this is my first time ever posting anything. I was at the conference in Branson. I believe the fellowship goes by WPF not WWPF. We've recently pulled out of the UPC, my home Church is in Buchanan MI. I was looking something up online and came across this Apostolic Friends Fellowship and it looked interesting. Then I saw Elder Steve Epley leaves post here so I decided to register. I highly respect this elder. The meeting in Branson MO. was very balanced. I guess by most peoples standards I'm considered far to the right on about all issues. Its very easy to dwell on negatives.. and I know I can find fault with anything or anyone if I'm looking for it. The Executive council of the WPF is top notch. I question anyones integrity or intelligence who would criticize these Elders. Unless of course you've done more for the Kingdom then they have. Lord willing I'll be at the confernce in '09. And hopefully I can make it to the AMC conference in Nashville also.

Tim Rutledge? The Tim Rutledge? Did you pastor in CT for some time?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Tim Rutledge]

Tim Rutledge? The Tim Rutledge? Did you pastor in CT for some time?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Hi Bro. Alex,
I've never Pastored. I am the Tim Rutledge..just probably not the TR you have heard of. I guess the youth Pastor in Alexandria LA. and I have the same name.

[tstew]

Hello, this is my first time ever posting anything. I was at the conference in Branson. I believe the fellowship goes by WPF not WWPF. We've recently pulled out of the UPC, my home Church is in Buchanan MI. I was looking something up online and came across this Apostolic Friends Fellowship and it looked interesting. Then I saw Elder Steve Epley leaves post here so I decided to register. I highly respect this elder. The meeting in Branson MO. was very balanced. I guess by most peoples standards I'm considered far to the right on about all issues. Its very easy to dwell on negatives.. and I know I can find fault with anything or anyone if I'm looking for it. The Executive council of the WPF is top notch. I question anyones integrity or intelligence who would criticize these Elders. Unless of course you've done more for the Kingdom then they have. Lord willing I'll be at the confernce in '09. And hopefully I can make it to the AMC conference in Nashville also.

Bro Rutledge, I'm glad you decided to join the forum. But let me say that my criticism and the criticism of many people around the country and in this forum is in how this was done.... I guess there is a fair amount of head scratching on why it was done (the inconsistency of a stance that embraces the internet but shuns television to the extent that it is worth leaving the org...but that's another story).
Either way the massive letter writing campaign to the ministers of the organization using the UPC mailing list is unethical no matter who does it. If it were done to any of these individual pastors on the local level where some of their leaders left and used the church mailing list to inform the members unbeknowst to the pastor, I would imagine they would see the ethical issues there.
Everyone is free to join whatever organization they want. I have issue when in leaving, you cast aspersions on the organization as if we are turning back on the "preferred Apostolic way". Especially when the basis for this is something as perplexing as the embracing of the internet and the absolute horror at the thought of advertising on television. I would be a bit more impressed if they just went Amish with it.

[Tim Rutledge]

Bro Rutledge, I'm glad you decided to join the forum. But let me say that my criticism and the criticism of many people around the country and in this forum is in how this was done.... I guess there is a fair amount of head scratching on why it was done (the inconsistency of a stance that embraces the internet but shuns television to the extent that it is worth leaving the org...but that's another story).
Either way the massive letter writing campaign to the ministers of the organization using the UPC mailing list is unethical no matter who does it. If it were done to any of these individual pastors on the local level where some of their leaders left and used the church mailing list to inform the members unbeknowst to the pastor, I would imagine they would see the ethical issues there.
Everyone is free to join whatever organization they want. I have issue when in leaving, you cast aspersions on the organization as if we are turning back on the "preferred Apostolic way". Especially when the basis for this is something as perplexing as the embracing of the internet and the absolute horror at the thought of advertising on television. I would be a bit more impressed if they just went Amish with it.

Hello tstew,
I believe the men on the Executive Council are true Men of God. I do understand where your coming from. When the UPC was formed and or merged or when any other oneness organization has beed started I'm not sure if it could be done without upsetting people. I do not believe the WPF was started all because of the tv issue. The tv issue was just like the straw (brick) that broke the camels back. The WPF is just holding the standard where it has been (trying to go by the bilble and the upc manual) for years. I think we have to keep television out of the Church and its been proven that you cannot do that and use it for advertising and broadcasting. As far as going amish.. I'd rather by associated with the amish than the charismatics.
God Bless.
TR

[Blaylock]

Hello tstew,
I believe the men on the Executive Council are true Men of God. I do understand where your coming from. When the UPC was formed and or merged or when any other oneness organization has beed started I'm not sure if it could be done without upsetting people. I do not believe the WPF was started all because of the tv issue. The tv issue was just like the straw (brick) that broke the camels back. The WPF is just holding the standard where it has been (trying to go by the bilble and the upc manual) for years. I think we have to keep television out of the Church and its been proven that you cannot do that and use it for advertising and broadcasting. As far as going amish.. I'd rather by associated with the amish than the charismatics.
God Bless.
TR

Dear Elder Rutledge.

Are you saying that the men left in the UPCI are not true men of God? Please tell me this isn't true, for if this is what you are saying then you are in a boat load of trouble in life.

Many churches have used TV as a mode of evangelism and are not Charismatic even before the res #4 vote. I would recommend taking your head out from the sand.

And if this is how you feel about the UPCI and want to lump everyone in this category let me tell you friend then even the Amish wouldn't want to fellowship with you.

[Tim Rutledge]

Dear Elder Rutledge.

Are you saying that the men left in the UPCI are not true men of God? Please tell me this isn't true, for if this is what you are saying then you are in a boat load of trouble in life.

Many churches have used TV as a mode of evangelism and are not Charismatic even before the res #4 vote. I would recommend taking your head out from the sand.

And if this is how you feel about the UPCI and want to lump everyone in this category let me tell you friend then even the Amish wouldn't want to fellowship with you.


Hello Blaylock, I made no reference to ministers who stayed in the UPC. I know God can still work in a United Pentecostal Church. I have friends and minister friends whom I believe to be "right with God" in the UPC.

I don't think my head is in the sand. I percieve you and I are very different in what we've been taught. I have no problem with people belonging to the upc.. I just do not care for the direction they seem to be heading. The most important thing I have is my soul and I will be very careful what I fellowship. Forgive me if I came across harsh or judgemental, that was not my intent. God bless.
TR

[timlan2057]

I question anyones integrity or intelligence who would criticize these Elders. .


I stopped reading right here.

[Sister Alvear]

Tim, put your shirt and tie on! ha...

[tstew]

Hello tstew,
I believe the men on the Executive Council are true Men of God. I do understand where your coming from. When the UPC was formed and or merged or when any other oneness organization has beed started I'm not sure if it could be done without upsetting people. I do not believe the WPF was started all because of the tv issue. The tv issue was just like the straw (brick) that broke the camels back. The WPF is just holding the standard where it has been (trying to go by the bilble and the upc manual) for years. I think we have to keep television out of the Church and its been proven that you cannot do that and use it for advertising and broadcasting. As far as going amish.. I'd rather by associated with the amish than the charismatics.
God Bless.
TR

Bro Tim, if you wouldn't mind, I would like to hear your personal argument for banning advertisement on television while embracing almost unlimited utilization of the internet...including youtube broadcasts that are similar to TV in everyway except that it is on a computer monitor. And also do you know if the business owners involved in the WPF shun television advertising for their businesses as well. Also is there a stance against phones and other forms of technology that can receive television signals since even the definition of television that existed years ago is virtually obsolete.

[Tim Rutledge]

Bro Tim, if you wouldn't mind, I would like to hear your personal argument for banning advertisement on television while embracing almost unlimited utilization of the internet...including youtube broadcasts that are similar to TV in everyway except that it is on a computer monitor. And also do you know if the business owners involved in the WPF shun television advertising for their businesses as well. Also is there a stance against phones and other forms of technology that can receive television signals since even the definition of television that existed years ago is virtually obsolete.

Hi Br. Stewart, I in no way have all the answers, no one does. Technology is out pacing us. To me TV equals hollywood, and its all about making money. To me internet does not equal hollywood. I see internet as a tool. I was on-line for a couple years in the 90's, but I saw the confusion it caused and I didn't want to be a stumbling block for anyone, so I did not have internet for over 8 years. My wife and I recently decided to get on-line with some business opportunities were trying to make work. Internet is not going away, and I feel somewhat a responsibilty to my children, to try to learn, and teach them the right way to educate and be educated via the tools we have available to us. As I said I don't have all the answers. Niether do you, or anyone else on this subject. Internet should have blocks and you should be accountable for everything you do on-line. I do understand internet has the capabilty to be much worse then tv. But to me tv (hollywood) is always wrong and internet is not always wrong. Clear as mud huh??
Your UPC?

[Tim Rutledge]

Tim, put your shirt and tie on! ha...

Shirt and Tie?? I Don't understand. Can I wear pants too??

Jonathan Alvear is one of the greatest preachers of all time. Any relation? He's in Sulpher LA.

[Tim Rutledge]

I stopped reading right here.

Oh come on.. I bet you kept on reading.

I will lay my head on my pillow tonight hoping for God's mercy.

[Theresa]

whats their website address? I havent been around in so long I dont remember

[Theresa]

Oh come on.. I bet you kept on reading.

I will lay my head on my pillow tonight hoping for God's mercy.

wont we all?

[Tim Rutledge]

whats their website address? I havent been around in so long I dont remember

Here you go
http://www.worldwidepf.com/page.php

[Tim Rutledge]

Hello Blaylock, I made no reference to ministers who stayed in the UPC. I know God can still work in a United Pentecostal Church. I have friends and minister friends whom I believe to be "right with God" in the UPC.

I don't think my head is in the sand. I percieve you and I are very different in what we've been taught. I have no problem with people belonging to the upc.. I just do not care for the direction they seem to be heading. The most important thing I have is my soul and I will be very careful what I fellowship. Forgive me if I came across harsh or judgemental, that was not my intent. God bless.
TR

Where is Blaylock?

[Consapostolic1]

AMC, a WPFer, wow? Who was your pastor? Did you move or just decide to go UPC?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

My pastor was RTM. I decided to switch churches.

[bishoph]

Dear Elder Rutledge.

Are you saying that the men left in the UPCI are not true men of God? Please tell me this isn't true, for if this is what you are saying then you are in a boat load of trouble in life.

Many churches have used TV as a mode of evangelism and are not Charismatic even before the res #4 vote. I would recommend taking your head out from the sand.

And if this is how you feel about the UPCI and want to lump everyone in this category let me tell you friend then even the Amish wouldn't want to fellowship with you.

Herein lies the problem! Unless you are referring to non-UPCI pastors/churches (I don't think you are) that were using TV prior to the passing of res #4, those pastors/churches which did so were in direct violation of the "manual" they were in covenant to uphold. They could have left and followed their heart in being on TV, that would have been fine. Or they could have worked to change the rule, but when they chose to stay and openly violate the rules, that is blatant rebellion.

With all due respect I think those who have lambasted the WPF men, yet applaud those who openly rebel and violate the very covenant they entered into of their own free will (no one made them join the UPCI) are the ones with their head in the sand. Overlook rebellion..........denigrate those who stand on their convictions.......No Thanks!

[tstew]

Herein lies the problem! Unless you are referring to non-UPCI pastors/churches (I don't think you are) that were using TV prior to the passing of res #4, those pastors/churches which did so were in direct violation of the "manual" they were in covenant to uphold. They could have left and followed their heart in being on TV, that would have been fine. Or they could have worked to change the rule, but when they chose to stay and openly violate the rules, that is blatant rebellion.

With all due respect I think those who have lambasted the WPF men, yet applaud those who openly rebel and violate the very covenant they entered into of their own free will (no one made them join the UPCI) are the ones with their head in the sand. Overlook rebellion..........denigrate those who stand on their convictions.......No Thanks!

Bishop I have gained some respect for you due to your posts and at the very least your consistency. My issue has never really been with their convictions even though I do feel them to be somewhat cloudy due to the stance on the internet and other technology. My problem was with the lack of ethics that led to many people (including immediate family members of mine) who expressed no desire to be included and had no prior relationship with the founders (except their UPC connection), receiving the information as a result of using the UPCI mailing list. Once again if anyone did that in anybody's individual church to establish a "more preferred" church they would certainly be crying foul.

Furthermore, I have been involved with and around many sizable UPC churches in large media markets with the means to advertise on TV and I have never seen it done, so I don't believe it is happening anywhere near the extent you are intimating. If there are a few who have (and I'll grant you that if even without you citing specifics because I've already had my coffee today :)...I don't believe you can parallel that to the actions that were central to the birth of an organization by all of the founders and facilitators of said organization.

[tstew]

Hi Br. Stewart, I in no way have all the answers, no one does. Technology is out pacing us. To me TV equals hollywood, and its all about making money. To me internet does not equal hollywood. I see internet as a tool. I was on-line for a couple years in the 90's, but I saw the confusion it caused and I didn't want to be a stumbling block for anyone, so I did not have internet for over 8 years. My wife and I recently decided to get on-line with some business opportunities were trying to make work. Internet is not going away, and I feel somewhat a responsibilty to my children, to try to learn, and teach them the right way to educate and be educated via the tools we have available to us. As I said I don't have all the answers. Niether do you, or anyone else on this subject. Internet should have blocks and you should be accountable for everything you do on-line. I do understand internet has the capabilty to be much worse then tv. But to me tv (hollywood) is always wrong and internet is not always wrong. Clear as mud huh??
Your UPC?


Bro I'm not asking for "all the answers". I do realize that there are some things that are outside of the realm of human comprehension. I'm not talking about explaining the fact that God has no beginning. I feel that this is a simple logical question. Why is TV bad and the internet embraced?
I had a very wise instructor at CLC warn us about teaching the principles and not against the technology. The principle would be to set no evil thing before thine eyes period, no matter where it is (magazine, TV, internet, theater, book, etc.) The problem with teaching against the technology is that as the technology progresses, your message becomes obsolete and indefensible. You would basically have to make a committment to shun all technology (hence my Amish statement earlier) in order to be consistent. And you would probably need to go retroactively back to the earlier hard-line stance againt the radio. As to the "hollywood" argument, the thousands of communication and entertainment companies that make money due to television also make money via the internet, radio, telephone service, and through their subsidiary holdings probably profit everytime you go to the grocery store. So TV does not equal Hollywood and Hollywood is nowhere near limited to TV. Truth be told, some Hollywodd fat cat may have made a few dollars off the Branson convention (sorry couldn't resist :).
And yes I am UPC. I can sense the sincerity in your posts and in your posts and I hope you can in mine.

[bishoph]

Bishop I have gained some respect for you due to your posts and at the very least your consistency. My issue has never really been with their convictions even though I do feel them to be somewhat cloudy due to the stance on the internet and other technology. My problem was with the lack of ethics that led to many people (including immediate family members of mine) who expressed no desire to be included and had no prior relationship with the founders (except their UPC connection), receiving the information as a result of using the UPCI mailing list. Once again if anyone did that in anybody's individual church to establish a "more preferred" church they would certainly be crying foul.

Furthermore, I have been involved with and around many sizable UPC churches in large media markets with the means to advertise on TV and I have never seen it done, so I don't believe it is happening anywhere near the extent you are intimating. If there are a few who have (and I'll grant you that if even without you citing specifics because I've already had my coffee today :)...I don't believe you can parallel that to the actions that were central to the birth of an organization by all of the founders and facilitators of said organization.

Thank you for your comments! I have appreciated the spirit in which you have posted, and even though we may not agree on every issue, I do enjoy your input.

I understand your concern about the manner in which the WPF's announcement was broadcast. I am not sure there would have been any good way for them to get the word out (I think their method and motive would have been questioned no matter what) however, I am willing to agree that there may have been a better way.

I have never said that there was widespread TV broadcasting or advertising going on, I simply responded to Blaylock's assertion that "Many churches have used TV as a mode of evangelism and are not Charismatic even before the res #4 vote." I will stand by my sentiment that anyone who did did this was in violation of their covenant with the organization and was being rebellious, dishonest, and lacked integrity. In fact I feel this same way about those that sign the affirmation statement every year and own/watch a TV. They would never accept that kind of blatant disregard from their own members/leaders.

I have often stated, that while I disagree with those who left over the AS back in the 90's, I have great respect for them. At least they were honest and possessed integrity. They refused to sign in agreement for something they could not in clear conscience agree to, and they did not operate outside the manuel in disrespect and rebellion, they simply followed their convictions and left.

I do know that one of the leading men on the committee task to examine the issue leading up to Tampa, when asked why we should change the "law" or rule after all of these years, made the statement, that so many are operating outside of the law/rule that we need to change the law/rule so that they will no longer be violators. (This was quoted to me by the man who asked the question in the meeting, and since I cannot "quote" the answer verbatim I have simply repeated the info.)That is an extremely dangerous ideology. That mindset will lead to the erosion and eventual departure from the truth. IMHO

[tstew]

Thank you for your comments! I have appreciated the spirit in which you have posted, and even though we may not agree on every issue, I do enjoy your input.

I understand your concern about the manner in which the WPF's announcement was broadcast. I am not sure there would have been any good way for them to get the word out (I think their method and motive would have been questioned no matter what) however, I am willing to agree that there may have been a better way.

I have never said that there was widespread TV broadcasting or advertising going on, I simply responded to Blaylock's assertion that "Many churches have used TV as a mode of evangelism and are not Charismatic even before the res #4 vote." I will stand by my sentiment that anyone who did did this was in violation of their covenant with the organization and was being rebellious, dishonest, and lacked integrity. In fact I feel this same way about those that sign the affirmation statement every year and own/watch a TV. They would never accept that kind of blatant disregard from their own members/leaders.

I do know that one of the leading men on the committee task to examine the issue leading up to Tampa, when asked why we should change the "law" or rule after all of these years, made the statement, that so many are operating outside of the law/rule that we need to change the law/rule so that they will no longer be violators. (This was quoted to me by the man who asked the question in the meeting, and since I cannot "quote the answer verbatim I have simply repeated the info.)That is an extremely dangerous ideology. That mindset will lead to the erosion and eventual departure from the truth. IMHO

That one line is I believe sums up the concern that I have about some of what I perceived in some of the actions leading up to Tulsa. I'm not saying that these men are that way, but those actions can very easily be seen that way. These are men that I have heard about my entire life and it was distressing to watch some of the things unfold.
The argument as to "how to get the word out" could be used by everyone leaving a local assembly to start a church in the area. Get the word out by evangelizing and reaching the lost. Not proselytizing and dissemenating info to everyone on the mailing list of an organization.
When it comes to disobeying rules that you have sworn to uphold, I do believe that there are provisions against using the mailing list in this way in the first place. Plus it is very harmful to the kingdom.
As to what your friend heard, I have never heard that as a leading factor in the decision to allow advertising on television. Remember that this was not a vote to install a TV in everyones house. The most consistent commentary I heard was about the inconsistency of a stance that embraces the internet and other very similar technologies that are far more advanced than the typical TV set, while shunning TV advertisements.

[Tim Rutledge]

Bro I'm not asking for "all the answers". I do realize that there are some things that are outside of the realm of human comprehension. I'm not talking about explaining the fact that God has no beginning. I feel that this is a simple logical question. Why is TV bad and the internet embraced?
I had a very wise instructor at CLC warn us about teaching the principles and not against the technology. The principle would be to set no evil thing before thine eyes period, no matter where it is (magazine, TV, internet, theater, book, etc.) The problem with teaching against the technology is that as the technology progresses, your message becomes obsolete and indefensible. You would basically have to make a committment to shun all technology (hence my Amish statement earlier) in order to be consistent. And you would probably need to go retroactively back to the earlier hard-line stance againt the radio. As to the "hollywood" argument, the thousands of communication and entertainment companies that make money due to television also make money via the internet, radio, telephone service, and through their subsidiary holdings probably profit everytime you go to the grocery store. So TV does not equal Hollywood and Hollywood is nowhere near limited to TV. Truth be told, some Hollywodd fat cat may have made a few dollars off the Branson convention (sorry couldn't resist :).
And yes I am UPC. I can sense the sincerity in your posts and in your posts and I hope you can in mine.



TV has been taught against, consistently for well over 40 years. Internet has been around less then 20 years and I've never heard anyone preach totally 100%... against the internet. I do not believe the AMF (ACI) saints have it much less then any other group. The amish won't drive a car or van.. but someone can drive them around in one. If I was to say internet was altogether wrong then get info in any way from the world wide web.. to me..its the same thing as the amish riding in a motor vehicle. It does seem strange the amish cant drive a van but can ride in one. That being said..I have to say I admire the amish for their stand. People (we) have to draw lines somewhere and sometimes the lines seem silly or hypocritical. People who dont believe nothing and have no convictions basically cannot be hypocrits. (sorry i cant spell well). Tv is where a lot of us have drawn the line. As I stated before..my kids are growing up in this fast paced world. And I need to be able to intelligently instruct them. When my kids grow up..they will no nothing of tv.. we dont allow dvd's. But they will know how to safely navigate the www. for education and business purposes. I understand the confusion with the tv/internet comparisons. The bad on tv far outweighs any good. tv is for what?? Your brand of upc was different then mine, obviously. Your bringing up that going to grocery store somehow makes us supporters of hollywood?? I percieve you have no problem with hollywood in your home or anywhere for that matter. I'm not stating this things to make you mad. I personally believe that no Christians have tv's. My Pastor tells me that that is not true and God has people on paths and that we are not to judge. I submit to my Pastor and try to just work on my own nasty self. We are all only going to be saved by the Grace of God. All I know is ultra conservative pentecost. My Pastor and Bishop, Paul and Alfred Deeds.Verbal Bean (tapes). Jonathan Alvear.Edwin Young. DC Moody.LE Westberg. Danny Perdew.Keith Hood.Ed Crider.Phil White. Gary Howard. Robert Davis.Ron Garrett. Meads. Lambeths. Cavaness.Nathan Dudley. Johnny King. Larry Booker. Johnny Godair.Crawford Coon. Nathaniel Wilson. Vaughn Morton.These preachers have shaped me into who I am today. What these men preach.. though I know there is even differences among them. These are the men who taught me against worldliness, and television is nothing else if not worldly. I got a little off track on this post.. forgive me.. i'm tired and have had a long day. God had to reach way down to a horrible cess pool to save me. And I owe him all my mind, heart and strength.:boxing I will always be ready to fight for the right. The trick is having the right attitude. I'm not too good at conveying my thoughts on paper (typing). I do believe your sincere and I appreciate your attitude. Talk to you soon.
TR

[Carpenter]

...These preachers have shaped me into who I am today. What these men preach.. though I know there is even differences among them. These are the men who taught me against worldliness...God had to reach way down to a horrible cess pool to save me. And I owe him all my mind, heart and strength.:boxing I will always be ready to fight for the right. The trick is having the right attitude. I'm not too good at conveying my thoughts on paper (typing). I do believe your sincere and I appreciate your attitude. Talk to you soon.
TR

Brother Rutledge...I just need to ask if God was the one who reached down into the cesspool to save you, why then do you need these men to teach you against worldliness...or anyone else for that matter?

You are saying then that worldliness is subjective because if a man doesn't teach on this or that different from his counterpart of the same faith, then what he does not preach against is NOT considered worldly. What stability, continuity or unity does the church have if we are to rely on men...pastor or not to tell us what is worldly?? What happens when we encounter something we need to make our own decision about in a vaccum away from the man telling us what is worldly and what is holy?

When can we get to the point where we have a relationship with Jesus and men called of God actually lead us instead of simply feeling they need to tell us what to and what not to do all the time?

The ministry has put upon themselves their own leaden mantle that they cannot sustain.

[Carpenter]

This picture is on their website from the Branson meeting, not sure what’s going on but my guess is they are about to get booted for those red dresses.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/AFFpost/image_00119.jpg

Oooooooh...we're a happy people yes we are
we're a happy people yes we are
been baptized in Jesus Name,
spoke in tongues when the Holy Ghost came,
we're a happy people yes we are...

scary...

[Pressing-On]

Oooooooh...we're a happy people yes we are
we're a happy people yes we are
been baptized in Jesus Name,
spoke in tongues when the Holy Ghost came,
we're a happy people yes we are...

scary...
Carpenter! LOL! You are a little more intelligent than that. No one knows the content of this meeting. How do you know that they are not speaking of serious matters? Do you want them to act silly at that point? No, we don't.

[Carpenter]

Carpenter! LOL! You are a little more intelligent than that. No one knows the context of this meeting. How do you know that they are not speaking of serious matters? Do you want them to act silly at that point? No, we don't.

I suppose you are right, I usually don't write down the first thing that comes to mind, but I even made myself laugh because that photo reminded me of that song I haven't heard or sang or even thought of in 15 years... :D

[Blaylock]

Herein lies the problem! Unless you are referring to non-UPCI pastors/churches (I don't think you are) that were using TV prior to the passing of res #4, those pastors/churches which did so were in direct violation of the "manual" they were in covenant to uphold. They could have left and followed their heart in being on TV, that would have been fine. Or they could have worked to change the rule, but when they chose to stay and openly violate the rules, that is blatant rebellion.

With all due respect I think those who have lambasted the WPF men, yet applaud those who openly rebel and violate the very covenant they entered into of their own free will (no one made them join the UPCI) are the ones with their head in the sand. Overlook rebellion..........denigrate those who stand on their convictions.......No Thanks!

Of course I am referring to non-UPCI Pastors and you knew that.

But this was just your opportunity to bash the UPCI again.

It amazes me that every time someone will bring up a Church that has been using TV for advertisement and programming all the CONS shut up or call them LIBS. But surprise, surprise it is working and they are winning and keeping souls.

People who wont use TV as a tool for evangelism are those who have their heads in the sand.

No one is overlooking rebellion........... constantly judge others ..... degenerate the Apostolic movement with that judgment of whose right and whose wrong .... NO THANKS!!!!!

[Pressing-On]

I suppose you are right, I usually don't write down the first thing that comes to mind, but I even made myself laugh because that photo reminded me of that song I haven't heard or sang or even thought of in 15 years... :D

LOL!

[Carpenter]

Speaking of being double minded...

I looked through those photos...yea, like I don't have anything better to do, and I observed several current and even position-holding UPC pastors at those meetings being actively involved.

This disturbs me.

[Pressing-On]

Speaking of being double minded...

I looked through those photos...yea, like I don't have anything better to do, and I observed several current and even position-holding UPC pastors at those meetings being actively involved.

This disturbs me.
The whole aspect of "unity" disturbs me!

[Carpenter]

The whole aspect of "unity" disturbs me!

Well, it seems to me the men in those photos...most of them were united in that they all seemed to be mad (emotionally, not mentally...but then again...).


:D

[tstew]

TV has been taught against, consistently for well over 40 years. Internet has been around less then 20 years and I've never heard anyone preach totally 100%... against the internet. I do not believe the AMF (ACI) saints have it much less then any other group. The amish won't drive a car or van.. but someone can drive them around in one. If I was to say internet was altogether wrong then get info in any way from the world wide web.. to me..its the same thing as the amish riding in a motor vehicle. It does seem strange the amish cant drive a van but can ride in one. That being said..I have to say I admire the amish for their stand. People (we) have to draw lines somewhere and sometimes the lines seem silly or hypocritical. People who dont believe nothing and have no convictions basically cannot be hypocrits. (sorry i cant spell well). Tv is where a lot of us have drawn the line. As I stated before..my kids are growing up in this fast paced world. And I need to be able to intelligently instruct them. When my kids grow up..they will no nothing of tv.. we dont allow dvd's. But they will know how to safely navigate the www. for education and business purposes. I understand the confusion with the tv/internet comparisons. The bad on tv far outweighs any good. tv is for what?? Your brand of upc was different then mine, obviously. Your bringing up that going to grocery store somehow makes us supporters of hollywood?? I percieve you have no problem with hollywood in your home or anywhere for that matter. I'm not stating this things to make you mad. I personally believe that no Christians have tv's. My Pastor tells me that that is not true and God has people on paths and that we are not to judge. I submit to my Pastor and try to just work on my own nasty self. We are all only going to be saved by the Grace of God. All I know is ultra conservative pentecost. My Pastor and Bishop, Paul and Alfred Deeds.Verbal Bean (tapes). Jonathan Alvear.Edwin Young. DC Moody.LE Westberg. Danny Perdew.Keith Hood.Ed Crider.Phil White. Gary Howard. Robert Davis.Ron Garrett. Meads. Lambeths. Cavaness.Nathan Dudley. Johnny King. Larry Booker. Johnny Godair.Crawford Coon. Nathaniel Wilson. Vaughn Morton.These preachers have shaped me into who I am today. What these men preach.. though I know there is even differences among them. These are the men who taught me against worldliness, and television is nothing else if not worldly. I got a little off track on this post.. forgive me.. i'm tired and have had a long day. God had to reach way down to a horrible cess pool to save me. And I owe him all my mind, heart and strength.:boxing I will always be ready to fight for the right. The trick is having the right attitude. I'm not too good at conveying my thoughts on paper (typing). I do believe your sincere and I appreciate your attitude. Talk to you soon.
TR

Bro. my point is that if you have the internet you already have "Hollywood in your home", plus all other kinds of things that will never be on TV. You have to choose to navigate away from it just like you can on TV. As far as there being nothing good on TV, that is not a valid argument. There are tons of educational and informational things that you can choose to watch. There are even people who have used TV to successfully reach millions of people with their brand of the gospel, and have grown ministries exponentially as a result....(insert gasp here). There are people who currently are members of those churches specifically because they saw them on TV. To answer your question as to what TV is for, it's for the same thing that radio is for. And there are things in all mediums that you should avoid and the wonderful thing is that you can easily avoid those things on all those mediums.
My point about supporting Hollywood is that you have to be consistent, because many of the same companies that benefit from TV benefit even more from the internet.

[Pressing-On]

Well, it seems to me the men in those photos...most of them were united in that they all seemed to be mad (emotionally, not mentally...but then again...).


:D

Get over it!!! :killinme

Now you have me curious as to what the meeting was about. I do have to say the whole meeting had to be full of strong emotion from start to finish. Just a given.

If that was the Tulsa Meeting I know that many UPC preachers were present as our oldest son was there. It was a serious matter for all.

[Tim Rutledge]

Brother Rutledge...I just need to ask if God was the one who reached down into the cesspool to save you, why then do you need these men to teach you against worldliness...or anyone else for that matter?

You are saying then that worldliness is subjective because if a man doesn't teach on this or that different from his counterpart of the same faith, then what he does not preach against is NOT considered worldly. What stability, continuity or unity does the church have if we are to rely on men...pastor or not to tell us what is worldly?? What happens when we encounter something we need to make our own decision about in a vaccum away from the man telling us what is worldly and what is holy?

When can we get to the point where we have a relationship with Jesus and men called of God actually lead us instead of simply feeling they need to tell us what to and what not to do all the time?

The ministry has put upon themselves their own leaden mantle that they cannot sustain.

Hello Carpenter, God always works through men and we are saved through preaching. Its not in man to direct his own path. I trust you do have an Elder or Pastor in your life.

[tstew]

Oooooooh...we're a happy people yes we are
we're a happy people yes we are
been baptized in Jesus Name,
spoke in tongues when the Holy Ghost came,
we're a happy people yes we are...

scary...

I haven't heard that one in forever...it sent me back on a trip down memory lane. I think I might remake some of those old songs and see if I can work them into my rotation. I think some of our kids just learned the old "I am a One God Apostolic Tongue Talking Holy Roller Born Again Heaven Bound Believer in Jesus' Name"

[Kings Kid]

Oooooooh...we're a happy people yes we are
we're a happy people yes we are
been baptized in Jesus Name,
spoke in tongues when the Holy Ghost came,
we're a happy people yes we are...

scary...
It looks like those two ate something sour. lol
:toofunny

[Sister Alvear]

I remember that one from a long time ago...

[Tim Rutledge]

Bro. my point is that if you have the internet you already have "Hollywood in your home", plus all other kinds of things that will never be on TV. You have to choose to navigate away from it just like you can on TV. As far as there being nothing good on TV, that is not a valid argument. There are tons of educational and informational things that you can choose to watch. There are even people who have used TV to successfully reach millions of people with their brand of the gospel, and have grown ministries exponentially as a result....(insert gasp here). There are people who currently are members of those churches specifically because they saw them on TV. To answer your question as to what TV is for, it's for the same thing that radio is for. And there are things in all mediums that you should avoid and the wonderful thing is that you can easily avoid those things on all those mediums.
My point about supporting Hollywood is that you have to be consistent, because many of the same companies that benefit from TV benefit even more from the internet.


Brother, I guess my brand of the gospel is different. I feel I am consistent. And you feel your consistent. Lets both just go forward in Jesus name. I'll never agree with using television. And you do. No skin off my nose. God bless.
TR

[tstew]

Brother, I guess my brand of the gospel is different. I feel I am consistent. And you feel your consistent. Lets both just go forward in Jesus name. I'll never agree with using television. And you do. No skin off my nose. God bless.
TR

It does seem to be a case of agreeing to disagree. But while there may be no skin off your nose and certainly none of mine. This whole situation was very damaging to many people, families, and churches. And that is what bothers me.
God Bless you too and once again welcome to the forum. I do look forward to conversations with you. I know that there is a lot that we will have in common and agree on and be able to have beneficial discussion about.

[Tim Rutledge]

It does seem to be a case of agreeing to disagree. But while there may be no skin off your nose and certainly none of mine. This whole situation was very damaging to many people, families, and churches. And that is what bothers me.
God Bless you too and once again welcome to the forum. I do look forward to conversations with you. I know that there is a lot that we will have in common and agree on and be able to have beneficial discussion about.

Brother, what caused the damage to so many people? The way the WPF was started? The leaders of the UPC were in no way surprised by actions of the founders of the WPF, they new a split was coming, if the vote went towards letting tv in.

[tstew]

Brother, what caused the damage to so many people? The way the WPF was started? The leaders of the UPC were in no way surprised by actions of the founders of the WPF, they new a split was coming, if the vote went towards letting tv in.

Bro. I don't want to resurrect our the whole conversation :beatdeadhorse, but in a nutshell...yes. Once again I believe that anyone would recognize the damaging nature of influential people in a local church body doing the exact same thing. And yes, I do believe that the actions of those founders did catch many in the UPC by surprise...including myself. I don't mind someone leaving if they feel they have to follow their convictions...but if you are going to claim the high road, your actions better bear that out or you run the risk of looking foolish or hypocritical.

[SOUNWORTHY]

I believe if you aren't happy with an organization or church the best thing to do is leave quietly. More power to the brethren in the WWPF. I don't agree with many of them nor do I agree with everyone in UPC but as far as I'm concerned it's a great organization, not perfect but great.

[oletime]

i have asked bro smith directly and he has not, in the mean time he is gib. if you have read bro bernards letter he has said these men are NOT IN QUESTION if you want to fellowship them go ahead, you dont have to leave the upc to do it. i have been told he is listed on their website as an upcoming speaker at the next conference. incidentally his son spoke at no limits and to my knowledge, the last time i checked the upc website, he was still upc. i dont think the upc wants to make any waves over this, lets face it they havent enforced their manual in a lot of areas for years ie: television in their homes etc. the resolution should never have been continuosly submitted until they finally squeaked it through. bro urshan never would have allowed that to happen. whatever happened to not not contending for your beliefs to the detriment of a brother. and please dont tell me it replies in reverse also, these are bedrock standards from virtually day one with the upc. listen to bro CHAMBERS MESSAGE IN ATLANTIC CITY IN THE LATE SIXTIES THE TITLE WAS ; WILL THE UPC REPEAT HISTORY! sadly they have started to !! talk about a prophet. anyway maybe at the next general conference this will get reversed now that everyone has seen the division it has caused .

[Tim Rutledge]

i have asked bro smith directly and he has not, in the mean time he is gib. if you have read bro bernards letter he has said these men are NOT IN QUESTION if you want to fellowship them go ahead, you dont have to leave the upc to do it. i have been told he is listed on their website as an upcoming speaker at the next conference. incidentally his son spoke at no limits and to my knowledge, the last time i checked the upc website, he was still upc. i dont think the upc wants to make any waves over this, lets face it they havent enforced their manual in a lot of areas for years ie: television in their homes etc. the resolution should never have been continuosly submitted until they finally squeaked it through. bro urshan never would have allowed that to happen. whatever happened to not not contending for your beliefs to the detriment of a brother. and please dont tell me it replies in reverse also, these are bedrock standards from virtually day one with the upc. listen to bro CHAMBERS MESSAGE IN ATLANTIC CITY IN THE LATE SIXTIES THE TITLE WAS ; WILL THE UPC REPEAT HISTORY! sadly they have started to !! talk about a prophet. anyway maybe at the next general conference this will get reversed now that everyone has seen the division it has caused .

Hello oletime, I agree.. N. Urshan would of made a difference. Your Post reminded me of the 1963 sermon at the UPC gen. conf. by Elder C. Ballestero.. "The handwriting is on the wall". I don't think the resolution will be reversed nor I'm I particularly hoping for that. The WPF has the cream of the crop. Godairs, Booker,J. King, T. Nance, Coon, Wilson, F. Odem, T French, R. Treece, and many others. Its time for a new thing.. the WPF will enforce the bylaws. If the UPCI would of just enforced what they put in the manual all this could of been avoided. God bless.
TR

[mizpeh]

Hello oletime, I agree.. N. Urshan would of made a difference. Your Post reminded me of the 1963 sermon at the UPC gen. conf. by Elder C. Ballestero.. "The handwriting is on the wall". I don't think the resolution will be reversed nor I'm I particularly hoping for that. The WPF has the cream of the crop. Godairs, Booker,J. King, T. Nance, Coon, Wilson, F. Odem, T French, R. Treece, and many others. Its time for a new thing.. the WPF will enforce the bylaws. If the UPCI would of just enforced what they put in the manual all this could of been avoided. God bless.
TR

Cream of the crop? ARE YOU SERIOUS? Is there such a thing in God's kingdom? Did Paul and Peter run around saying, "we are the cream of the crop"? :crazywalls

[mizpeh]

Comparing ourselves among ourselves is not wise.

Lifting up one over another, I'm of Apollos, I'm of Paul,....again not wise.

Let God decide who the cream of the crop is and who are the vessels of gold and silver. When man does this type of thing, it has an air of superiority and superficiality about it.

[SOUNWORTHY]

Comparing ourselves among ourselves is not wise.

Lifting up one over another, I'm of Apollos, I'm of Paul,....again not wise.

Let God decide who the cream of the crop is and who are the vessels of gold and silver. When man does this type of thing, it has an air of superiority and superficiality about it.

I couldn't agree more. UPC has some very fine men. In fact every organization has some very good people, they are not confined to UPCI, WWPF, Grace International or any other group.

[Jekyll]

What if you're the sour cream of the crop?

[Jekyll]

I seriously don't understand why men can't be acting members of both orgs. If they pay their dues to both, I don't see why one can't be a member of both. They aren't competing orgs.

To say that it is disturbing especially when one isn't in active membership of the org is like the guy sitting on his deck overlooking the country club silently telling the guy at the tee box to club down. Who cares?

Hey, Phelps, where are you when all the snide comments are being made here?? :hmmm

[mizpeh]

What if you're the sour cream of the crop?

I hope WPF brings much glory to the name of Jesus Christ.

It's the superior attitude I found distasteful. It leads to a holier than thou mindset.

[theoldpaths]

Cream of the crop? ARE YOU SERIOUS? Is there such a thing in God's kingdom? Did Paul and Peter run around saying, "we are the cream of the crop"? :crazywalls

Paul spoke of those of reputation...

Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Php 2:29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation:

Reminds me of the scripture in Proverbs that speaks of having a good name.

Does the NT speak of showing special honour to some? Yes it does...

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

[mizpeh]

Paul spoke of those of reputation...

Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Php 2:29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation:

Reminds me of the scripture in Proverbs that speaks of having a good name.

Does the NT speak of showing special honour to some? Yes it does...

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.



It's the attitude that I took offence with. "My team is better than your team."

[theoldpaths]

if Tim Rutledge holds them in reputation and worthy of double-honor, then great. I know one in that list that I have a great deal of respect for as well; the others I don't know so well, but have heard good things about them.

In my opinion, the WPF just does NOT want to remove the ancient landmarks that their fathers/elders have set up and do not want to build again those things that they once destroyed; I think that is great.

They just want to abide by and enforce the bylaws that they and all other licensed UPC'ers have been signing their name to re-commit to and abide by for years.

I think these are all good things.

[Tim Rutledge]

Cream of the crop? ARE YOU SERIOUS? Is there such a thing in God's kingdom? Did Paul and Peter run around saying, "we are the cream of the crop"? :crazywalls

Yes I'm serious. These Elders are holding to the old paths. Time will tell.

[Tim Rutledge]

It's the attitude that I took offence with. "My team is better than your team."

Great peace have they that love thy law and nothing shall offend them.

[theoldpaths]

Great peace have they that love thy law and nothing shall offend them.

Amen! Great scripture brother!

[mizpeh]

Great peace have they that love thy law and nothing shall offend them.

Was Jesus offended by those who sold in the temple?

[mizpeh]

Yes I'm serious. These Elders are holding to the old paths. Time will tell.

Yes, time will tell if the "old paths" are synonomous with traditions of men or principles of God.

[tstew]

if Tim Rutledge holds them in reputation and worthy of double-honor, then great. I know one in that list that I have a great deal of respect for as well; the others I don't know so well, but have heard good things about them.

In my opinion, the WPF just does NOT want to remove the ancient landmarks that their fathers/elders have set up and do not want to build again those things that they once destroyed; I think that is great.They just want to abide by and enforce the bylaws that they and all other licensed UPC'ers have been signing their name to re-commit to and abide by for years.

I think these are all good things.

Okay ...but be consistent. The stance that they have made in what they accept and what they shun is so illogical that I could not imagine having to explain it to any convert with three brain cells. The UPCI bylaws are not a valid enough defense to explain the hypocrisy of the stance to someone who knows nothing about them. The bylaws are not a substitute for the Bible believe it or not, so if you don't have scripture, you sure better have logic or you have nothing.
The problem with many people is that they are more concerned about the people they have and not the ones we are meant to be evangelizing (which is the manifest function of the church)...Sadly the lack of growth in many of those churches bear this out. They develop a "Hold the fort" mentality and not a "Take the hills" mentality.

[tstew]

Great peace have they that love thy law and nothing shall offend them.

Not even a silly, little old TV advertisement? :)

[Tim Rutledge]

Was Jesus offended by those who sold in the temple?

Jesus was angry and saddened.. not offended. The comparison between this post and cleaning up the temple is uncomparable.

[Tim Rutledge]

Not even a silly, little old TV advertisement? :)

I and we were not offended. We just marked those that caused division. And kept going forward. Have any of you been to WPF Lately?

[Tim Rutledge]

Okay ...but be consistent. The stance that they have made in what they accept and what they shun is so illogical that I could not imagine having to explain it to any convert with three brain cells. The UPCI bylaws are not a valid enough defense to explain the hypocrisy of the stance to someone who knows nothing about them. The bylaws are not a substitute for the Bible believe it or not, so if you don't have scripture, you sure better have logic or you have nothing.
The problem with many people is that they are more concerned about the people they have and not the ones we are meant to be evangelizing (which is the manifest function of the church)...Sadly the lack of growth in many of those churches bear this out. They develop a "Hold the fort" mentality and not a "Take the hills" mentality.

Logic is not in the bible. It's a faith thing. Time will tell what will happen with both fellowships and hopefully God blesses both groups. Your logic leads to not being able to stand for anything without being hypoctical. Not rationalizing everything would be a good beginning. I know.. I'm mean spirited.

[tstew]

Logic is not in the bible. It's a faith thing. Time will tell what will happen with both fellowships and hopefully God blesses both groups. Your logic leads to not being able to stand for anything without being hypoctical. Not rationalizing everything would be a good beginning. I know.. I'm mean spirited.

Bro. I stand for plenty...but all my stands are biblical and consistent. Not stubborn and traditional. The Bible I read is very logical to me and there are no inconsistent stands.
My point is that you do yourselves no favor with a stance that is not Biblical and illogical.

[Tim Rutledge]

Bro. I stand for plenty...but all my stands are biblical and consistent. Not stubborn and traditional. The Bible I read is very logical to me and there are no inconsistent stands.
My point is that you do yourselves no favor with a stance that is not Biblical and illogical.

Which unbiblical stands are we talking about? How long have you been UPC?

[tstew]

Which unbiblical stands are we talking about? How long have you been UPC?

If being associated with television at all in any capacity is against the Bible, then the internet would have to be. You would probably have to use whatever scripture you found that you think teaches against having anything to do with TV, to reraise the earlier ultra con teaching against the radio.
I was born and raised in the UPC.

[Tim Rutledge]

If being associated with television at all in any capacity is against the Bible, then the internet would have to be. You would probably have to use whatever scripture you found that you think teaches against having anything to do with TV, to reraise the earlier ultra con teaching against the radio.
I was born and raised in the UPC.

So if you were born and raised in the upc.. who taught you that tv may be ok? Cause for yrs. its been against the the "rules" to own one as a minster and we were told to teach the saints against it.

[tstew]

So if you were born and raised in the upc.. who taught you that tv may be ok? Cause for yrs. its been against the the "rules" to own one as a minster and we were told to teach the saints against it.

Nobody "taught me that TV is ok". I don't have to be taught to question the double standard in the stance. I don't have to be told what to think about everything. I'm thankful that I was not taught to be that way by any of my pastors.
I have been taught to study myself to show myself approved so that I am not ashamed by the stances that I take or an inabilty to fully explain them.
The point that I have been trying to make is that I am very evangelistic by nature. I go to a very evangelistic church and as a result I deal with new members and visitors on a weekly basis. It is not enough to tell those people that something is illogical but "its been against the the "rules" to own one as a minster and we were told to teach the saints against it". I think that a lot of people who do such things are not dealing with hundreds of new people as a result of their church growth and are dealing with the same people and able to rely on the old party line.

[Tim Rutledge]

Nobody "taught me that TV is ok". I don't have to be taught to question the double standard in the stance. I don't have to be told what to think about everything. I'm thankful that I was not taught to be that way by any of my pastors.
I have been taught to study myself to show myself approved so that I am not ashamed by the stances that I take or an inabilty to fully explain them.
The point that I have been trying to make is that I am very evangelistic by nature. I go to a very evangelistic church and as a result I deal with new members and visitors on a weekly basis. It is not enough to tell those people that something is illogical but "its been against the the "rules" to own one as a minster and we were told to teach the saints against it". I think that a lot of people who do such things are not dealing with hundreds of new people as a result of their church growth and are dealing with the same people and able to rely on the old party line.


Brother, I can appreciate it the fact that you deal with a lot of new people and there are much larger issues then tv. Watching anything on tv with new people would be over the line. Your right, in saying when new people are coming in consistently, its whole different mindset then saints always just seeing the same old saints. I understand that new saints "need" logic caused they lack faith and hope. I co worker of mine has been attending services with me the past 5 Sunday nights. He needs the HG, the revelation of who Jesus is. I won't his tv for awhile..thats not my job anyways. Talk to you soon.
God bless.

[jaxfam6]

LOL!!! Hey, I understand...my sisters and my Dad were singing at an AMF event(or church) years ago, and my Dad couldn't understand why no one was responding to the music. The whole crowd was sitting like statues, no response.

My Dad had just bought my older sister (it was PJ, CC1) a beautiful red dress, which she was wearing on the platform. So, inny waze...my Dad turns around to the pastor and (quietly) asks what the problem is, to which the pastor replied, "We believe only whores wear red."

My Dad was REALLY mad about that...LOL!!!!!

But...I don't think the red dress thing was ever in the UPC...was it? I thought that was a purely AMF/ultra-con thing.


I grew up AMF and Red was not preached against at our church
a lot of other things were but not ours. We did know however that there were some that did preach against it.

[Tim Rutledge]

I grew up AMF and Red was not preached against at our church
a lot of other things were but not ours. We did know however that there were some that did preach against it.

Hi jax.. May I ask what state or Church you grew up in. Where is your home church now??

[StillStanding]

Is WWPF still around?

[Tim Rutledge]

Is WWPF still around?

Yes. It will only get larger and stronger. As I hope for the same with the upc.

[oletime]

i agree it is growing fast . ask for the old paths and walk their in. ps i was wrong about the conference bro smith is listed as a speaker at, it is the amc not wwpf. yes their is some inconsistency, if your surfing the wrong things on line then dont brag you dont have tv. it is worse, but that doesnt justify tv. and if they had had internet when tv came out, that would have been in the manual too. no question. the problem is you use the internet for work. do you use it properly or not? do you want to live for jesus or not? their isnt enough rules in the world to make you ,with the way technology is changing. ya gotta have the want to to quote bro alan oggs !!

[jaxfam6]

Hi jax.. May I ask what state or Church you grew up in. Where is your home church now??

I grew up in Ohio. My father (Marvin Jacks) and then my brother (Tom) were my pastors back then.
I am currently in Phoenix AZ and I go to Phoenix First Apostolic Church. Pastor is Frank Romo. One of the best preachers, pastor, friend I could ask for. Very wise man

[jaxfam6]

I must say I did go to the site for the WPF and saw the pictures they have posted. There are not many smiling faces. Not many look happy. There are some but mostly they seem serious or even angry. Then there are many with their arms folded as if to say leave me alone. I am sure there are really good people there but if I were to judge from looks, as most from the internet will do, I would not want to be part of them because they look bapized in pickle juice.
I am not trying to be mean I am just stating an opinion based from my observations.

[Tim Rutledge]

I must say I did go to the site for the WPF and saw the pictures they have posted. There are not many smiling faces. Not many look happy. There are some but mostly they seem serious or even angry. Then there are many with their arms folded as if to say leave me alone. I am sure there are really good people there but if I were to judge from looks, as most from the internet will do, I would not want to be part of them because they look bapized in pickle juice.
I am not trying to be mean I am just stating an opinion based from my observations.

Hi Brother, thanks for sharing where your from. I attend in Buchanan MI. Bishop, and Pastor Deed's. Quite a few good Churches in OH.
I was at the meeting in Branson MO. Actually my wife, baby and I was in a few of the pictures. I believe we are in the very first one shown, on the left,with my arms raised and she has Caden Timothy in her arms. Anyways.. I think to a degree there was a spirit of heaviness there. These people have put their whole life into an organization, that to them, has let them down. It was a very balanced meeting with good worship. Lord willing I'll be going back next year. I believe the Executive Council is just trying to hold onto what has always been taught and enforced by the bible and or manual of the upci. God bless.
TR

[jaxfam6]

Hi Brother, thanks for sharing where your from. I attend in Buchanan MI. Bishop, and Pastor Deed's. Quite a few good Churches in OH.
I was at the meeting in Branson MO. Actually my wife, baby and I was in a few of the pictures. I believe we are in the very first one shown, on the left,with my arms raised and she has Caden Timothy in her arms. Anyways.. I think to a degree there was a spirit of heaviness there. These people have put their whole life into an organization, that to them, has let them down. It was a very balanced meeting with good worship. Lord willing I'll be going back next year. I believe the Executive Council is just trying to hold onto what has always been taught and enforced by the bible and or manual of the upci. God bless.
TR

For a short time my father pastored in Taylor MI outside of Detroit. only about two years back in the mid 70's. During our time there the church went from 12 people to 175. When he left he put it in the hands of an inept 'preacher' who ruined the people within 3 years. Everything that had been built was gone. It is a shame when men fall into sin. Though people should not follow a man they still do look at the man in charge and when he makes mistakes it effects people.
Oh well, times past now.

[TCSQ]

I grew up in Ohio. My father (Marvin Jacks) and then my brother (Tom) were my pastors back then.
I am currently in Phoenix AZ and I go to Phoenix First Apostolic Church. Pastor is Frank Romo. One of the best preachers, pastor, friend I could ask for. Very wise man



You mean to say you moved all the way out to ARIZONA and aren't going to Gail Rocks church (Other wise known as "Just Shoot Me.....NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tabernacle!???)

Glad to hear you found a nice church there in the Valley of the Sun.

[jaxfam6]

You mean to say you moved all the way out to ARIZONA and aren't going to Gail Rocks church (Other wise known as "Just Shoot Me.....NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tabernacle!???)

Glad to hear you found a nice church there in the Valley of the Sun.

OKAY
THANK YOU FOR THAT TRAUMATIC MEMORY

NO NO and NO
we are not going to that church

Yes we are very grateful that God ACCIDENTALLY put us in the right place at the right time to literally find the church we are going to. God is awesome that way.

[Tim Rutledge]

OKAY
THANK YOU FOR THAT TRAUMATIC MEMORY

NO NO and NO
we are not going to that church

Yes we are very grateful that God ACCIDENTALLY put us in the right place at the right time to literally find the church we are going to. God is awesome that way.

Maybe you guys know Br. Rock better then I do. But what I've heard and seen personly, is good. I have some tapes of him. Just less tolerence for "sin" then others. Different brand preachers are for different brand folks.
Don't get me wrong though.. I do no where your coming from. I just particularly like that type of preaching. No Guesswork. God bless.
TR

[Jekyll]

I hope WPF brings much glory to the name of Jesus Christ.

It's the superior attitude I found distasteful. It leads to a holier than thou mindset.
The superior attitude is non-existent. A statement of faith and direction was made but the preaching is the same. As someone said before, these men are abiding by what the UPC stood for for years. Because an org takes a left turn, these men are supposed to change what they preach? I don't think so.

Of course there is NOTHING wrong with attributing attitudes and feelings to men clearly by ASSUMPTION. And we all know what that word means and makes of people..

[mizpeh]

The superior attitude is non-existent. A statement of faith and direction was made but the preaching is the same. As someone said before, these men are abiding by what the UPC stood for for years. Because an org takes a left turn, these men are supposed to change what they preach? I don't think so.

Of course there is NOTHING wrong with attributing attitudes and feelings to men clearly by ASSUMPTION. And we all know what that word means and makes of people..

And "cream of the crop" is an OPINION not a verifiable TRUTH.

Let the men of the WPF continue lifting up the name of the Lord and spreading the gospel of peace. But let them not think they are something when they are not. We are all the children of God by grace and God is able to make the one you think the least, stand.

[Jekyll]

And "cream of the crop" is an OPINION not a verifiable TRUTH.

Let the men of the WPF continue lifting up the name of the Lord and spreading the gospel of peace. But let them not think they are something when they are not. We are all the children of God by grace and God is able to make the one you think the least, stand.
Oh, please, tell me, all knowing one, just what do they think they are? They have not labelled themsleves the cream of the crop. Just because someone throws that comment out there doesn't mean that they consider themselves to be such.

[TCSQ]

Maybe you guys know Br. Rock better then I do. But what I've heard and seen personly, is good. I have some tapes of him. Just less tolerence for "sin" then others. Different brand preachers are for different brand folks.
Don't get me wrong though.. I do no where your coming from. I just particularly like that type of preaching. No Guesswork. God bless.
TR


Sorry Tim, Hope I didn't leave you with the wrong idea about my attitude toward preaching, its much different than that in this case. Suffice it to say that Bro Rock does not believe Brother Ron Garrett to be saved. You get the picture (Or at least as much of it as you want to know.)There are people in several states with their families actually destroyed and seperated by this guy. One of them being an ACI/AMF pastor less than thirty to forty miles from you. But definitely preach the full counsel of God and you will not be dissapointed.

[Tim Rutledge]

Sorry Tim, Hope I didn't leave you with the wrong idea about my attitude toward preaching, its much different than that in this case. Suffice it to say that Bro Rock does not believe Brother Ron Garrett to be saved. You get the picture (Or at least as much of it as you want to know.)There are people in several states with their families actually destroyed and seperated by this guy. One of them being an ACI/AMF pastor less than thirty to forty miles from you. But definitely preach the full counsel of God and you will not be dissapointed.

Yeah.. I believe I know who your speaking of (SG).. I've only been in a few services with Br. Rock at Br. Cananess in Shelbyville IN. Well.. If he thinks Br. Garretts not saved, he's whacked. Nice to meet you. God bless.
TR

[Cindy]

I and we were not offended. We just marked those that caused division. And kept going forward. Have any of you been to WPF Lately?

Marked them with what?

[jaxfam6]

Marked them with what?

A big purple marker right in the middle of the forehead


DIVIDER

In some cases just a big D when the ink started running low

[Cindy]

A big purple marker right in the middle of the forehead


DIVIDER

In some cases just a big D when the ink started running low

Whatever, that just sounds strange to me.

[jaxfam6]

Whatever, that just sounds strange to me.

what? marking them that cause division among you? that is a biblical teaching. nothing strange about it

I went to a church once were there was a man that was causing trouble and the pastor had talked with him one on one. Next it was with witnesses. Then with witnesses again. Then he called an adult meeting and and called him out in front of the congregation and told him exactly how it was. The man still came to church for a short time but no one would talk with him. He had lied and caused trouble and tried to get several different women to have an affair with him. He was causing division and once the ministry had dealt with it and talked with him one several occasion and he still kept it up they dealt with it by calling him out and telling everyone that what he was doing. He had adult children and a wife in that church. It may have been what saved those kids. Eventually he left the church and his wife. He is as messed up now as he was then but no longer in that church or group causing trouble because everyone who knows him knows what happened and will have nothing to do with him. I for one am glad he was 'marked' probably saved a few souls that night.

[Cindy]

what? marking them that cause division among you? that is a biblical teaching. nothing strange about it

I went to a church once were there was a man that was causing trouble and the pastor had talked with him one on one. Next it was with witnesses. Then with witnesses again. Then he called an adult meeting and and called him out in front of the congregation and told him exactly how it was. The man still came to church for a short time but no one would talk with him. He had lied and caused trouble and tried to get several different women to have an affair with him. He was causing division and once the ministry had dealt with it and talked with him one several occasion and he still kept it up they dealt with it by calling him out and telling everyone that what he was doing. He had adult children and a wife in that church. It may have been what saved those kids. Eventually he left the church and his wife. He is as messed up now as he was then but no longer in that church or group causing trouble because everyone who knows him knows what happened and will have nothing to do with him. I for one am glad he was 'marked' probably saved a few souls that night.

Who caused the division? This is not just about one person causing division, it's a group, so how are they marked really? Some think the WPF caused a division. Are they marked too?

[jaxfam6]

Who caused the division? This is not just about one person causing division, it's a group, so how are they marked really? Some think the WPF caused a division. Are they marked too?

I'll get the purple marker if you hold them down while I write on the forheads.

=)

[bishoph]

Of course I am referring to non-UPCI Pastors and you knew that.

But this was just your opportunity to bash the UPCI again.

It amazes me that every time someone will bring up a Church that has been using TV for advertisement and programming all the CONS shut up or call them LIBS. But surprise, surprise it is working and they are winning and keeping souls.

People who wont use TV as a tool for evangelism are those who have their heads in the sand.

No one is overlooking rebellion........... constantly judge others ..... degenerate the Apostolic movement with that judgment of whose right and whose wrong .... NO THANKS!!!!!

Blaylock,

It seems we are touching a very sore spot for you. You state that you were speaking of non-UPCI churches who were using TV advertising/broadcasting, and that I knew that. I am not sure where you draw your conclusions, it was you who stated "Many churches have used TV as a mode of evangelism and are not Charismatic even before the res #4 vote." A reasonable man who would read that would deduct that you were referring to UPCI pastors/churches, why else would you mention the passing of "res #4."

"But this was just your opportunity to bash the UPCI again."

I would challenge you my good friend to show me even one post where I have ever bashed the UPCI. I have very deep roots in the UPCI, and while I am not currently a member, I have often said that it is probably the best/most effective oneness "organization" in existence today. (even though I do not agree with every thing it allows/does.)

The reality is, that I was pointing out those within the organization (this would apply to any organization BTW) who were violating the rules that they had covenanted to abide by and uphold. Now I can flip the script and say that you know full well there were men who owned, watched, advertised, and broadcast on TV, all the while signing the AS, and yet you don't want to call them "truce breakers?" Sorry friend, if my pointing out that some men are violating there own covenant, is bashing the organization, then pointing out a politician that is breaking the law is bashing America, and we all know that isn't the case.

Again, you make a very broad statement concerning cons shutting up or calling pastors/churches libs who use TV advertising. Go back through the threads and research, I have been very consistent. I have used statistics and research by non-Apostolics that show the ineffectiveness of TV advertising/broadcasting for churches, (I know if "one soul" is won it has been worth it, but could the resources have been used in a better way?) as well as the cost factors. (I know you can put it on cable for free or next to nothing, but it won't be the quality of a Jakes or Parsley, and that's what most pastors would like to do.) I have never made it a con vs lib issue, and in fact it appears you are labeling yourself.

Lastly to say that "People who wont use TV as a tool for evangelism are those who have their heads in the sand," is somewhat ludicrous. Let me make sure I understand what your saying, every pastor/church who will not run out and put an add on TV has their head in the sand? Surely that is not what you meant.

Why is it that every body wants to jump up and down over the few people that have come and been saved from a TV ad/broadcast, and they act like nothing else works in our day. If a church is not a soul winning church, and seeing souls being born into the kingdom on a regular basis, TV ads are not going to create any kind of lasting harvest. And statistically, those that do see some saved as a result will be few in number, because evangelism has always been and will always be most effective person to person.

[theoldpaths]

Okay ...but be consistent. The stance that they have made in what they accept and what they shun is so illogical that I could not imagine having to explain it to any convert with three brain cells. The UPCI bylaws are not a valid enough defense to explain the hypocrisy of the stance to someone who knows nothing about them. The bylaws are not a substitute for the Bible believe it or not, so if you don't have scripture, you sure better have logic or you have nothing.
The problem with many people is that they are more concerned about the people they have and not the ones we are meant to be evangelizing (which is the manifest function of the church)...Sadly the lack of growth in many of those churches bear this out. They develop a "Hold the fort" mentality and not a "Take the hills" mentality.

The decision made by the UPC elders against owning a TV was made decades and decades ago. The decision was accompanied by tongues and interpretation. Has God blessed the organization since then? Yes he has, for decades and decades. The benefits of the Organization now came from the price that has been paid in the past for decades.

Did Jesus know that issues were going to come up in the church after he was gone in which MEN would have to discuss make decisions? Yes he did - read Matt 18. Did Jesus in the same passage say that whatever they - MEN - decided upon, that he would stand behind them and bind/loose them in heaven? Yes he did. Do we have a very practical example of that in Acts? Yes we do concerning circumcision of the Gentiles. Did the elders of the church come together and talk about it and make a decision in which afterwards they wrote that "it seemed good unto the Holy Ghost and unto us..."; indicating that somehow God showed by His Spirit in man that he backed up the decision? Yes they did.

Do you think the decision was made by a bunch of old country bumkins who didn't know what they were doing? Do you think that we are better than them because we are in the 21st century now?

Now concerning holiness and people one is witnessing to who are not yet saved, Jesus said this...

Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

This means that people cannot bear certain things UNTIL AFTER they are converted. That is why you don't see any/much teaching of Jesus to HIS disciples concerning things He requires of His people about holiness. That is why you read about holiness stuff in the epistles - letters written to churches/people who were already saved. That is why you don't read about Jesus teaching about hair in the gospels.

With people who are lost, the most important thing is for them to first get saved, by hearing the preaching/teaching of the gospel - the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and how it shows that we can now be born again. You don't clean a fish before you catch it - you have to catch it first.

Then after they are saved, they grow in grace and knowledge and live a life of loving obedience to the one who first loved them. Usually a person who loves the Lord with everything doesn't have a problem doing the things that He wants them to. Because we are no longer our own, we have been bought with a price. Let the Pastor preach/teach the word and the principles based upon the word and let the Holy Ghost convict.

Holiness standards are based upon biblical principles such as:

- loving not the world neither the things that are in the world
- coming out from among them and being separate
- touch not the unclean thing
- friendship with the world is emnity with God
- present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy, and acceptable unto God which is your reasonable service
- being not conformed to this world, but being transformed
- not being brought under the power of any
- abstain from ALL appearance of evil
- not setting any wicked thing before our eyes
- be careful what you hear
- modesty in clothing
- not wearing gold or silver
- not partaking of the modern idols of the world; etc

Apostolic does NOT mean inward focus only with NO outward focus on evangelizing. Apostolic churches are all about evangelizing and winning the lost. My church has grown considerably since my Pastor took it over almost 30 years ago. I'm not aware of any 1 Apostolic church whose sole focus is only inwardly.

Incidentally, there is one well-known church in our city that has had great growth, but you know at what cost? They don't preach the apostle's doctrine. What good is growth if they compromise truth? What good is growth if they convince a whole city that they are saved when in fact they are not. They make them 2 fold more the child of hell because you have to first convince them that they are deceived and are still lost FIRST before you can get them to do anything to be REALLY saved.

[tstew]

The decision made by the UPC elders against owning a TV was made decades and decades ago. The decision was accompanied by tongues and interpretation. Has God blessed the organization since then? Yes he has, for decades and decades. The benefits of the Organization now came from the price that has been paid in the past for decades.
Did Jesus know that issues were going to come up in the church after he was gone in which MEN would have to discuss make decisions? Yes he did - read Matt 18. Did Jesus in the same passage say that whatever they - MEN - decided upon, that he would stand behind them and bind/loose them in heaven? Yes he did. Do we have a very practical example of that in Acts? Yes we do concerning circumcision of the Gentiles. Did the elders of the church come together and talk about it and make a decision in which afterwards they wrote that "it seemed good unto the Holy Ghost and unto us..."; indicating that somehow God showed by His Spirit in man that he backed up the decision? Yes they did.

Do you think the decision was made by a bunch of old country bumkins who didn't know what they were doing? Do you think that we are better than them because we are in the 21st century now?

Now concerning holiness and people one is witnessing to who are not yet saved, Jesus said this...

Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

This means that people cannot bear certain things UNTIL AFTER they are converted. That is why you don't see any/much teaching of Jesus to HIS disciples concerning things He requires of His people about holiness. That is why you read about holiness stuff in the epistles - letters written to churches/people who were already saved. That is why you don't read about Jesus teaching about hair in the gospels.

With people who are lost, the most important thing is for them to first get saved, by hearing the preaching/teaching of the gospel - the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and how it shows that we can now be born again. You don't clean a fish before you catch it - you have to catch it first.

Then after they are saved, they grow in grace and knowledge and live a life of loving obedience to the one who first loved them. Usually a person who loves the Lord with everything doesn't have a problem doing the things that He wants them to. Because we are no longer our own, we have been bought with a price. Let the Pastor preach/teach the word and the principles based upon the word and let the Holy Ghost convict.

Holiness standards are based upon biblical principles such as:

- loving not the world neither the things that are in the world
- coming out from among them and being separate
- touch not the unclean thing
- friendship with the world is emnity with God
- present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy, and acceptable unto God which is your reasonable service
- being not conformed to this world, but being transformed
- not being brought under the power of any
- abstain from ALL appearance of evil
- not setting any wicked thing before our eyes
- be careful what you hear
- modesty in clothing
- not wearing gold or silver
- not partaking of the modern idols of the world; etc

Apostolic does NOT mean inward focus only with NO outward focus on evangelizing. Apostolic churches are all about evangelizing and winning the lost. My church has grown considerably since my Pastor took it over almost 30 years ago. I'm not aware of any 1 Apostolic church whose sole focus is only inwardly.

Incidentally, there is one well-known church in our city that has had great growth, but you know at what cost? They don't preach the apostle's doctrine. What good is growth if they compromise truth? What good is growth if they convince a whole city that they are saved when in fact they are not. They make them 2 fold more the child of hell because you have to first convince them that they are deceived and are still lost FIRST before you can get them to do anything to be REALLY saved.

If you are trying to link God blessing the UPC primarily to its stance on television I'm not sure that we will ever see things the same. But let me ask you this. If God does continue to bless the UPC, will you accept that it is in part due to God's approval of Resolution 4? If so, I have to tell you that we have been tremendously blessed since then in our local church. The district conference that we just had the the best attended and most impactful in a while. I'm consistently hearing reports of the same from many people.
Also, don't you realize that this is not the first teaching or stance that has been reversed...including teaching against the radio.

I don't care how you slice it, you cannot justify the double standard of the TV/internet thing. All I'm saying is that if you want to be taken seriously by people, you have to get rid of your internet presence.
Our church is in explosive revival as we speak, and we don't compromise truth.

[theoldpaths]

No I won't say that God blessed the UPC just because of TV; other church groups who don't have truth have taken stands against tv in the past before.

I'm glad that your church is experiencing revival and I hope the best for your church and the UPC.

Incidentally, there is a difference b/n Res 4 being passed and owning a television in one's house. Resolution 4 has not affected the requirement of not owning a television in the UPC manual as far as I know, however, there are many that believe that allowing tv everywhere in the UPC is coming as licensed UPC ministers have been doing so for years without any discipline.

As for me, I've done my experimenting with TV when I left the UPC and went to a church pastored by an x-UPC'er and came to the same conclusion for myself - I am stronger without TV; so I went back to the UPC/WPF church where I was planted and have rec'd benefits for doing so.

I use the internet quite a lot without violating any of my convictions, therefore, why should I get rid of my internet presence? Using the internet, do I see murder, pornography, lying, cheating, stealing, adultery, swear words? No. Do I join in partaking of the world's idols on the internet? No. Do I see a constant stream of men and women who do not abide by things taught in the bible? No. Do I sit for hours and get into a passive state of mind that makes me more susceptible to the things being being shown me that are inspired by some sinner's imagination? No.

Now I can't speak for others who do not have a tv but use the internet. If they are partaking of the same evils on the internet, then I would agree that there is no difference. If one is watching the same filth streamed in their pc/web browser that is on tv, then they have not forsaken the same stuff.

[tstew]

No I won't say that God blessed the UPC just because of TV; other church groups who don't have truth have taken stands against tv in the past before.

I'm glad that your church is experiencing revival and I hope the best for your church and the UPC.

Incidentally, there is a difference b/n Res 4 being passed and owning a television in one's house. Resolution 4 has not affected the requirement of not owning a television in the UPC manual as far as I know, however, there are many that believe that allowing tv everywhere in the UPC is coming as licensed UPC ministers have been doing so for years without any discipline.

As for me, I've done my experimenting with TV when I left the UPC and went to a church pastored by an x-UPC'er and came to the same conclusion for myself - I am stronger without TV; so I went back to the UPC/WPF church where I was planted and have rec'd benefits for doing so.

I use the internet quite a lot without violating any of my convictions, therefore, why should I get rid of my internet presence? Using the internet, do I see murder, pornography, lying, cheating, stealing, adultery, swear words? No. Do I join in partaking of the world's idols on the internet? No. Do I see a constant stream of men and women who do not abide by things taught in the bible? No. Do I sit for hours and get into a passive state of mind that makes me more susceptible to the things being being shown me that are inspired by some sinner's imagination? No.

Now I can't speak for others who do not have a tv but use the internet. If they are partaking of the same evils on the internet, then I would agree that there is no difference. If one is watching the same filth streamed in their pc/web browser that is on tv, then they have not forsaken the same stuff.

Your personal testimony is an example of why we should be teaching Biblical principles. Just set no evil thing before your eyes...no matter where they are. If you are unable to obey that principle when around a TV...then don't be around a TV. There are many who can responsibly watch a TV and avoid all of the evil things that you mentioned (not sure what channels you were watching though, :) ), but cannot resist the temptation of those things that you listed (which can much more readily be found online in much more extreme forms and can even come to you without you looking for it). Plus there is the whole added dimension of the interpersonal relationships that can be developed online.
What happens when nobody has TVs anymore because they are completely obsolete, but we have an entire generation of people who have problems with the new technologies because instead of instilling Biblical principle, we were busy railing against a specific technology.

[tstew]

Also TV is a much more effective evangelism tool than the internet.

[bishoph]

Your personal testimony is an example of why we should be teaching Biblical principles. Just set no evil thing before your eyes...no matter where they are. If you are unable to obey that principle when around a TV...then don't be around a TV. There are many who can responsibly watch a TV and avoid all of the evil things that you mentioned (not sure what channels you were watching though, :) ), but cannot resist the temptation of those things that you listed (which can much more readily be found online in much more extreme forms and can even come to you without you looking for it). Plus there is the whole added dimension of the interpersonal relationships that can be developed online.
What happens when nobody has TVs anymore because they are completely obsolete, but we have an entire generation of people who have problems with the new technologies because instead of instilling Biblical principle, we were busy railing against a specific technology.

Also TV is a much more effective evangelism tool than the internet.

Tstew,

Pertaining to your first quote, I agree that the teaching of principles is paramount to developing and maintaining a healthy/Godly lifestyle. The scriptures, however, teach that we are like sheep which do not have a good sense of direction, and often get into great difficulty when left to their own devices. We are no different! I have taught principles to my children, yet that did not negate the necessity for rules that would reinforce/instill those principles through practical application.

The whole "how can you be against TV and not against internet" is really a flawed idea IMO. That is like saying how can you be against illegal/recreational drugs and not against prescribed medication for real health issues. The purposes/intent are totally different. There is no doubt that principles must be in place in ones life for them to be safe no matter where they are. However, TV was invented for the sole purpose of entertainment, and when the average person sits down to watch TV, they are appealing to the lust of the eyes and of the flesh. This makes them more susceptible to being influenced by ungodly, evil, communications which corrupt good manners.

With regard to your second quote, I would be very interested what you base your statement on. From all the statistics that I have studied the exact opposite is true. The denominal world has gone to great lengths to establish well documented stats that show the ineffectiveness of TV advertising for churches. This is why the large churches do not advertise on TV. (If you watch TV, think about when the last time was that you saw a ad/commercial promoting a local denominal church. I am not talking about an ad promoting their broadcast, but rather advertising their church.) They discovered that while TV advertising is very effective for retail, goods and services, it was not effective for churches.

The denominal world has established that they do not use TV broadcasting for evangelism. In fact Rod Parsley's ministry and several others have stated that not one new convert has been added to their church thru TV, but that they use TV to raise money with which to fund their operation. That is why when Rod Parsley started out he did 20 minutes of preaching and 10 minutes of commercials, now he has 20 minutes of commercials and 10 minutes of preaching. They have grown their ministry to a great extent from TV, but not by new conversions, the growth has been from people who saw the broadcast and moved to the area to attend the church because they liked the program or the preacher.

When a person is logged into the internet and is looking at a church's website they are intellectually engaged, (not just being entertained) and because of this, they are more likely to be effected by what they see/hear.

[CC1]

bishoph,

You know I love ya but to use as an analogy about someone preaching against TV but not the internet with illegal drug use vs. prescritpion drugs is comparing apples and oranges.

In other words TV vs internet does not have the same relationship as illegal drug use vs. prescription drug use.

I am pleased that many legalists are taking a more thoughtful approach to the internet vs tv by not ouright banning it but rather teaching Christian principles in choices.What a shame that was not done with TV.

The ironic thing is that while a case can be made there are much more educational / positive opportunities on the internet it is also true there is much more access to pornography and evil on the internet than on all but the most extrem pay TV channels.

I have hundreds of TV channels on my DISH Satellite system but because I dont have HBO, Showtime, etc I cannot find anything on those hunddreds of channels as evil as I can find in 60 seconds on the internet.

[tstew]

Tstew,

Pertaining to your first quote, I agree that the teaching of principles is paramount to developing and maintaining a healthy/Godly lifestyle. The scriptures, however, teach that we are like sheep which do not have a good sense of direction, and often get into great difficulty when left to their own devices. We are no different! I have taught principles to my children, yet that did not negate the necessity for rules that would reinforce/instill those principles through practical application.

The whole "how can you be against TV and not against internet" is really a flawed idea IMO. That is like saying how can you be against illegal/recreational drugs and not against prescribed medication for real health issues. The purposes/intent are totally different. There is no doubt that principles must be in place in ones life for them to be safe no matter where they are. However, TV was invented for the sole purpose of entertainment, and when the average person sits down to watch TV, they are appealing to the lust of the eyes and of the flesh. This makes them more susceptible to being influenced by ungodly, evil, communications which corrupt good manners.

With regard to your second quote, I would be very interested what you base your statement on. From all the statistics that I have studied the exact opposite is true. The denominal world has gone to great lengths to establish well documented stats that show the ineffectiveness of TV advertising for churches. This is why the large churches do not advertise on TV. (If you watch TV, think about when the last time was that you saw a ad/commercial promoting a local denominal church. I am not talking about an ad promoting their broadcast, but rather advertising their church.) They discovered that while TV advertising is very effective for retail, goods and services, it was not effective for churches.

The denominal world has established that they do not use TV broadcasting for evangelism. In fact Rod Parsley's ministry and several others have stated that not one new convert has been added to their church thru TV, but that they use TV to raise money with which to fund their operation. That is why when Rod Parsley started out he did 20 minutes of preaching and 10 minutes of commercials, now he has 20 minutes of commercials and 10 minutes of preaching. They have grown their ministry to a great extent from TV, but not by new conversions, the growth has been from people who saw the broadcast and moved to the area to attend the church because they liked the program or the preacher.

When a person is logged into the internet and is looking at a church's website they are intellectually engaged, (not just being entertained) and because of this, they are more likely to be effected by what they see/hear.

Yes, but the average sheep does not have the Holy Ghost living inside of it to give it a good sense of direction. If my sense of direction came primarily from what my pastor said and not from my personal prayer life, relationship with the Good Shepherd, the leading of the Holy Ghost, the illuminating word which is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path...I would be pretty concerned.
Your analogy with all due respect is flawed. The stance you have is like someone having told people for years not to take Tylenol due to the potential side affects, but embracing the taking of much more dangerous habit forming drugs like OxyContin that have much more serious potential side affects.
It is a misnomer that people have used to say that the TV is only for entertainment. There is plenty of educational and informational information that you can choose to watch. There are channels that only provide such content....And by the way, not all entertainment is bad. Even the things that I would watch for entertainment would not violate my Biblical principles. Is there a difference between watching Bassmaster fishing on ESPN and watching someone fish from your boat. Is there a difference between your children watching Barney, Blue's Clues and Sesame Street via DVD or TV.
In regards to the other issue. To answer your question, in Houston many churches spend a lot of money advertising their churches with phenomenal results. A young pastor started a church called Higher Dimensions and due to an aggressive ad campaign, the church became a household name and has thousands of members. Had I never seen the commercials (while not even looking for his church), they could exist for 50 years and I would never know it.
I can tell you that the Fellowship of the Woodlands has opened a second location not far from my house. I can tell you this because they advertised it aggressively. I can tell you that Second Baptist is the "One Church with Five Locations" because that is there ad campaign. And I could go on and on believe me.
This underscores why I said that TV advertising is more effective than the internet. I was not looking for these churches. I did not know the names of these churches to even search for them in the first place. The millions of people who still do not have cable only have a half dozen or so viewing options. People with basic cable may have 70 or so. The advanced cable gives you options in the hundreds. Whereas the internet has an infinite amount of viewing options.
The chances of reaching someone who is watching 6 channels are pretty good. A dozen adds on your local stations would hit so many people.
I maintain our churches website and I keep up with the site traffic. I did list us with as many search engines as possible...but the fact remains that someone would have to be looking for us, and specifically our kind in order for us to have a chance at reaching them.

[Tim Rutledge]

bishoph,

You know I love ya but to use as an analogy about someone preaching against TV but not the internet with illegal drug use vs. prescritpion drugs is comparing apples and oranges.

In other words TV vs internet does not have the same relationship as illegal drug use vs. prescription drug use.

I am pleased that many legalists are taking a more thoughtful approach to the internet vs tv by not ouright banning it but rather teaching Christian principles in choices.What a shame that was not done with TV.

The ironic thing is that while a case can be made there are much more educational / positive opportunities on the internet it is also true there is much more access to pornography and evil on the internet than on all but the most extrem pay TV channels.

I have hundreds of TV channels on my DISH Satellite system but because I dont have HBO, Showtime, etc I cannot find anything on those hunddreds of channels as evil as I can find in 60 seconds on the internet.

Filters and blocks.

[tstew]

Filters and blocks.

Filters, blocks,remote control, and discipline

[bishoph]

bishoph,

You know I love ya but to use as an analogy about someone preaching against TV but not the internet with illegal drug use vs. prescritpion drugs is comparing apples and oranges.

In other words TV vs internet does not have the same relationship as illegal drug use vs. prescription drug use.

I am pleased that many legalists are taking a more thoughtful approach to the internet vs tv by not ouright banning it but rather teaching Christian principles in choices.What a shame that was not done with TV.

The ironic thing is that while a case can be made there are much more educational / positive opportunities on the internet it is also true there is much more access to pornography and evil on the internet than on all but the most extrem pay TV channels.

I have hundreds of TV channels on my DISH Satellite system but because I dont have HBO, Showtime, etc I cannot find anything on those hunddreds of channels as evil as I can find in 60 seconds on the internet.

CC1,

I think you and I agree on a quite a few things :bliss however, I don't think it is a bad comparison. The basic questioning is the same. Neither one IMO is good for you (TV/internet) (recreational/illegal drugs/prescription) but out of the four the internet and prescription drugs have beneficial uses. Just like prescription drugs can be misused and people can become addicted to them, (and it has been proven that these types of addictions are usually harder to break because the addicted person feels that the addiction is somewhat justified because it came from a doctor) so the internet can be used wrongfully.

On the other hand I find it somewhat humorous that you think those opposed to TV are legalists. Many of the Hollywood elite have banned TV from their homes, and from their children because they understand the negative impact it has on society as a whole, and young people in particular. If you would survey the majority of people (non-Apostolic) the large majority will tell you that they think the majority of programming on TV is bad, and most people don't have a problem getting rid of it for this reason. The greatest resistance that I have seen, is from folks who have been in church and have slowly become desensitized.

I recently spoke to a group of 60+ pastors, many of whom now embrace TV. I was not there to lambast them about TV, nor to condemn them. I simply asked this question: Since you have embraced TV has your prayer life diminished, stayed the same, or intensified? Has your relationship with God grown stronger, weaker, or stayed the same? Has your church become more evangelistic, less, or stayed the same? After several of these questions, I received an overwhelming response indicating that in every area there had been a marked decrease, but they had not noticed it because it happened slowly.

[Tim Rutledge]

Filters, blocks,remote control, and discipline

Can you turn your head fast enough when a less than Godly budweiser commercial comes on? Or maybe you can close your eyes and cover your ears real, real fast.

[bishoph]

Yes, but the average sheep does not have the Holy Ghost living inside of it to give it a good sense of direction. If my sense of direction came primarily from what my pastor said and not from my personal prayer life, relationship with the Good Shepherd, the leading of the Holy Ghost, the illuminating word which is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path...I would be pretty concerned.
Your analogy with all due respect is flawed. The stance you have is like someone having told people for years not to take Tylenol due to the potential side affects, but embracing the taking of much more dangerous habit forming drugs like OxyContin that have much more serious potential side affects.
It is a misnomer that people have used to say that the TV is only for entertainment. There is plenty of educational and informational information that you can choose to watch. There are channels that only provide such content....And by the way, not all entertainment is bad. Even the things that I would watch for entertainment would not violate my Biblical principles. Is there a difference between watching Bassmaster fishing on ESPN and watching someone fish from your boat. Is there a difference between your children watching Barney, Blue's Clues and Sesame Street via DVD or TV.
In regards to the other issue. To answer your question, in Houston many churches spend a lot of money advertising their churches with phenomenal results. A young pastor started a church called Higher Dimensions and due to an aggressive ad campaign, the church became a household name and has thousands of members. Had I never seen the commercials (while not even looking for his church), they could exist for 50 years and I would never know it.
I can tell you that the Fellowship of the Woodlands has opened a second location not far from my house. I can tell you this because they advertised it aggressively. I can tell you that Second Baptist is the "One Church with Five Locations" because that is there ad campaign. And I could go on and on believe me.
This underscores why I said that TV advertising is more effective than the internet. I was not looking for these churches. I did not know the names of these churches to even search for them in the first place. The millions of people who still do not have cable only have a half dozen or so viewing options. People with basic cable may have 70 or so. The advanced cable gives you options in the hundreds. Whereas the internet has an infinite amount of viewing options.
The chances of reaching someone who is watching 6 channels are pretty good. A dozen adds on your local stations would hit so many people.
I maintain our churches website and I keep up with the site traffic. I did list us with as many search engines as possible...but the fact remains that someone would have to be looking for us, and specifically our kind in order for us to have a chance at reaching them.

Obviously we will agree to disagree on this issue. :D It would be interesting to me for you to call the churches you mention which have built large congregations and ask them what percentage of their growth they attribute to TV advertising. And more importantly what percentage of new conversions they attribute to it.

[tstew]

Obviously we will agree to disagree on this issue. :D It would be interesting to me for you to call the churches you mention which have built large congregations and ask them what percentage of their growth they attribute to TV advertising. And more importantly what percentage of new conversions they attribute to it.

Bishop you're not seeing my point. I don't have to ask anyone because I'm telling you that the only reason I personally know these things is because I saw advertisements. If I were open to visiting a church in the area in search for a home church, I probably would visit the Fellowship of the Woodlands that opened up nearby. In part because it would be one of the only churches in the area that I feel I know anything about.
In order for me to have found their website, I would have had to been looking for a church, and even then it's a crapshoot as to whether I would have stumbled across them. Television advertising is one of the only ways you can reach the unchurched even if they are not actively putting forth effort to find you.

[tstew]

Can you turn your head fast enough when a less than Godly budweiser commercial comes on? Or maybe you can close your eyes and cover your ears real, real fast.

I pretty much do the same thing that I do everytime I drive by a less than Godly budweiser billboard, walk by a less than Godly magazine in the supermarket, have less than Godly advertisements on the same page as what I want to watch on youtube, have less than Godly advertisements when I check my yahoo mail, see a less than Godly book at Borders, see people dressed less than godly at the mall, see people drinking budweisers in real life, see people dressed scantily at the park, I could go on but I hope you see my point....
And no I don't "close your eyes and cover your ears real, real fast"...I would be in a car accident everyday.

[Cindy]

I'll get the purple marker if you hold them down while I write on the forheads.

=)

:crazywalls

:girlytantrum

[Cindy]

The decision made by the UPC elders against owning a TV was made decades and decades ago. The decision was accompanied by tongues and interpretation. Has God blessed the organization since then? Yes he has, for decades and decades. The benefits of the Organization now came from the price that has been paid in the past for decades.

Did Jesus know that issues were going to come up in the church after he was gone in which MEN would have to discuss make decisions? Yes he did - read Matt 18. Did Jesus in the same passage say that whatever they - MEN - decided upon, that he would stand behind them and bind/loose them in heaven? Yes he did. Do we have a very practical example of that in Acts? Yes we do concerning circumcision of the Gentiles. Did the elders of the church come together and talk about it and make a decision in which afterwards they wrote that "it seemed good unto the Holy Ghost and unto us..."; indicating that somehow God showed by His Spirit in man that he backed up the decision? Yes they did.

Do you think the decision was made by a bunch of old country bumkins who didn't know what they were doing? Do you think that we are better than them because we are in the 21st century now?

Now concerning holiness and people one is witnessing to who are not yet saved, Jesus said this...

Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

This means that people cannot bear certain things UNTIL AFTER they are converted. That is why you don't see any/much teaching of Jesus to HIS disciples concerning things He requires of His people about holiness. That is why you read about holiness stuff in the epistles - letters written to churches/people who were already saved. That is why you don't read about Jesus teaching about hair in the gospels.

With people who are lost, the most important thing is for them to first get saved, by hearing the preaching/teaching of the gospel - the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and how it shows that we can now be born again. You don't clean a fish before you catch it - you have to catch it first.

Then after they are saved, they grow in grace and knowledge and live a life of loving obedience to the one who first loved them. Usually a person who loves the Lord with everything doesn't have a problem doing the things that He wants them to. Because we are no longer our own, we have been bought with a price. Let the Pastor preach/teach the word and the principles based upon the word and let the Holy Ghost convict.

Holiness standards are based upon biblical principles such as:

- loving not the world neither the things that are in the world
- coming out from among them and being separate
- touch not the unclean thing
- friendship with the world is emnity with God
- present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy, and acceptable unto God which is your reasonable service
- being not conformed to this world, but being transformed
- not being brought under the power of any
- abstain from ALL appearance of evil
- not setting any wicked thing before our eyes
- be careful what you hear
- modesty in clothing
- not wearing gold or silver
- not partaking of the modern idols of the world; etc

Apostolic does NOT mean inward focus only with NO outward focus on evangelizing. Apostolic churches are all about evangelizing and winning the lost. My church has grown considerably since my Pastor took it over almost 30 years ago. I'm not aware of any 1 Apostolic church whose sole focus is only inwardly.

Incidentally, there is one well-known church in our city that has had great growth, but you know at what cost? They don't preach the apostle's doctrine. What good is growth if they compromise truth? What good is growth if they convince a whole city that they are saved when in fact they are not. They make them 2 fold more the child of hell because you have to first convince them that they are deceived and are still lost FIRST before you can get them to do anything to be REALLY saved.


POTD!!!!!!!

[bishoph]

Bishop you're not seeing my point. I don't have to ask anyone because I'm telling you that the only reason I personally know these things is because I saw advertisements. If I were open to visiting a church in the area in search for a home church, I probably would visit the Fellowship of the Woodlands that opened up nearby. In part because it would be one of the only churches in the area that I feel I know anything about.
In order for me to have found their website, I would have had to been looking for a church, and even then it's a crapshoot as to whether I would have stumbled across them. Television advertising is one of the only ways you can reach the unchurched even if they are not actively putting forth effort to find you.

I see your point very clearly! I think maybe you're missing mine. I understand that you know about these churches only because you saw them on TV, however, you are saved already, and if you were looking for a church you would not be an unchurched individual looking. My point is that while they are advertising on TV and you found out about them, how much of their growth is directly a result of TV. And more importantly, how many new conversions are because of TV. If they are simply growing because they are effective advertisers who attract people from one church to the next greatest thing, the advertising is not accomplishing evangelism, it is only facilitating swapping fish from one aquarium to another.

When we talk about evangelism, it can only be measured by new conversions. Transferring members from church to church just because of a strong marketing campaign is not true evangelism. IMO This is one of the greatest misconceptions in Pentecost, we market ourselves to attract other Apostolics, not to attract sinners.

George Barna and company have done the research. According to their studies less than 1% of people in any church are directly or indirectly there because of TV.

[tstew]

I see your point very clearly! I think maybe you're missing mine. I understand that you know about these churches only because you saw them on TV, however, you are saved already, and if you were looking for a church you would not be an unchurched individual looking. My point is that while they are advertising on TV and you found out about them, how much of their growth is directly a result of TV. And more importantly, how many new conversions are because of TV. If they are simply growing because they are effective advertisers who attract people from one church to the next greatest thing, the advertising is not accomplishing evangelism, it is only facilitating swapping fish from one aquarium to another.

George Barna and company have done the research. According to their studies less than 1% of people in any church are directly or indirectly there because of TV.

In the case of Higher Dimensions I would say that most of their growth is a result of their aggressive ad campaign. I met the pastor a while back. He is a young guy who did it in just a few years .

To the issue of conversion, of course what would happen when we get them to our church would be different than what would happen when they go to these other churches. My point is that they are being successful in getting people there in the first place because they are utilizing the most effective means. I do know there website now...but only because I saw it on TV...when I wasn't even looking for it.
Advertising can most certainly accomplish evangelism. The issue of conversion is seperate. But I am confident that if we get them to my church, many will be converted.

[Tim Rutledge]

I pretty much do the same thing that I do everytime I drive by a less than Godly budweiser billboard, walk by a less than Godly magazine in the supermarket, have less than Godly advertisements on the same page as what I want to watch on youtube, have less than Godly advertisements when I check my yahoo mail, see a less than Godly book at Borders, see people dressed less than godly at the mall, see people drinking budweisers in real life, see people dressed scantily at the park, I could go on but I hope you see my point....
And no I don't "close your eyes and cover your ears real, real fast"...I would be in a car accident everyday.

Living your everyday life and seeing junk is different then choosing to watch tv, knowing you'll see junk for the sake of being entertained, or "educated".

[True Believer]

:toofunny

Happy looking group! :TulsaNO:

:toofunny:toofunny

[jaxfam6]

Can you turn your head fast enough when a less than Godly budweiser commercial comes on? Or maybe you can close your eyes and cover your ears real, real fast.

We are to live in this world not seperate from it. We should insulate ourselves against the things that are not good. If I were to turn my head at every bad thing that came up throughout the day I would get no work done. I would not even get to my job. There would be no way for me to get to church. You insulate yourself to it and if you have God in your heart and life you certainly have no desire for the bad things.

Yes yes I know the scripture but we still have to LIVE IN this world. Israel did not keep from trading with the rest of the world. They simply took the good and left the bad behind. The same thing we have to do today in our society.

[Tim Rutledge]

We are to live in this world not seperate from it. We should insulate ourselves against the things that are not good. If I were to turn my head at every bad thing that came up throughout the day I would get no work done. I would not even get to my job. There would be no way for me to get to church. You insulate yourself to it and if you have God in your heart and life you certainly have no desire for the bad things.

Yes yes I know the scripture but we still have to LIVE IN this world. Israel did not keep from trading with the rest of the world. They simply took the good and left the bad behind. The same thing we have to do today in our society.

There is a difference between living your life and seeing junk..but.. to purposely put something in front of your face, knowing you'll see junk is not right. Rationalizing is the only option you have. Tv is for entertainment. You know Brother, I do not make these posts in maliciousness.

[jaxfam6]

There is a difference between living your life and seeing junk..but.. to purposely put something in front of your face, knowing you'll see junk is not right. Rationalizing is the only option you have. Tv is for entertainment. You know Brother, I do not make these posts in maliciousness.

I do know. I just don't agree with you completely. =)

[Tim Rutledge]

I do know. I just don't agree with you completely. =)

rationalizing?

[jaxfam6]

rationalizing?

no. I just do not see it the same as you. TV does not stop us from our prayer life. TV does not stop us from our family time. If something is on that we do not approve of or like we change it or turn it off. We are always going to have things in our face that are not good. I understand what you say about why put it there unnecessarily. The point I am making is that I really can not go to work if I do that. We have billboards that advertise sex sex and more sex. Straight sex. Gay sex. There are advertisements for casino's. anything that anyone can call wrong all over the place. I really could not go to work if I had to close my eyes or turn my head at everything, and I only live 6 miles from my office.
That is why I say we insulate ourselves from it. We pray and serve God and avoid what we can. If you want to watch a show and something comes on you turn the channel or turn it off or down. Now days you can even tivo things and not have to watch the commercials.

[Tim Rutledge]

no. I just do not see it the same as you. TV does not stop us from our prayer life. TV does not stop us from our family time. If something is on that we do not approve of or like we change it or turn it off. We are always going to have things in our face that are not good. I understand what you say about why put it there unnecessarily. The point I am making is that I really can not go to work if I do that. We have billboards that advertise sex sex and more sex. Straight sex. Gay sex. There are advertisements for casino's. anything that anyone can call wrong all over the place. I really could not go to work if I had to close my eyes or turn my head at everything, and I only live 6 miles from my office.
That is why I say we insulate ourselves from it. We pray and serve God and avoid what we can. If you want to watch a show and something comes on you turn the channel or turn it off or down. Now days you can even tivo things and not have to watch the commercials.


Do you want me to go on with this subject or would you rather stop?

Having tv in your house, and you put it there, and you knew you'd see trash is different then going to work. You chose to be entertained and knew what you'd see was not good. Can you watch everything you watch, with your babies sitting next to you? Desensitized, is a word that comes to my mind.
Do you repent daily for setting something evil before your eyes... and not walking in thine house with a clean heart?? I'll discuss against tv as long as your up for it. Just because there are jerks in the ACI (in every org.) does not change the book.

[jaxfam6]

Do you want me to go on with this subject or would you rather stop?

Having tv in your house, and you put it there, and you knew you'd see trash is different then going to work. You chose to be entertained and knew what you'd see was not good. Can you watch everything you watch, with your babies sitting next to you? Desensitized, is a word that comes to my mind.
Do you repent daily for setting something evil before your eyes... and not walking in thine house with a clean heart?? I'll discuss against tv as long as your up for it. Just because there are jerks in the ACI (in every org.) does not change the book.

You can discuss it all day long. Doesn't mean you will say anything that will change my mind.

There are men in the ACI that have TV's now? when did that happen?

[Tim Rutledge]

You can discuss it all day long. Doesn't mean you will say anything that will change my mind.

There are men in the ACI that have TV's now? when did that happen?

Brother.. I may of went over board attacking the tv thing. Forgive me. If any of the ACI guys got tv in their house, it was when they compromised. Talk to you later. God bless.
TR

[jaxfam6]

Brother.. I may of went over board attacking the tv thing. Forgive me. If any of the ACI guys got tv in their house, it was when they compromised. Talk to you later. God bless.
TR

no problem


If they do have them in their homes I would not be surprised. There are many that I used to go to camp with that preached against it yet would stay at hotels and watch it. They would not go to the theater but would go to broadway shows. Same difference in my opinion. Also would not go to the theater but would rent them and watch at home.

[theoldpaths]

Your personal testimony is an example of why we should be teaching Biblical principles. Just set no evil thing before your eyes...no matter where they are. If you are unable to obey that principle when around a TV...then don't be around a TV. There are many who can responsibly watch a TV and avoid all of the evil things that you mentioned (not sure what channels you were watching though, :) ), but cannot resist the temptation of those things that you listed (which can much more readily be found online in much more extreme forms and can even come to you without you looking for it). Plus there is the whole added dimension of the interpersonal relationships that can be developed online.
What happens when nobody has TVs anymore because they are completely obsolete, but we have an entire generation of people who have problems with the new technologies because instead of instilling Biblical principle, we were busy railing against a specific technology.

The problem I had when I experimented outside of the UPC/WPF was that you could find a decent program to watch, but then a commercial comes on with a half-naked woman advertising bras; etc. I and my WPF pastor has agreed that there are some good things on tv, however you have to wade through the much bad to get to the little good; then when you find something good, you have commercials showing something bad.

I can live without TV - mankind did it for thousands of years and somehow survived. Whatever need one thinks TV fulfills, somehow for thousands of years, man was able to satisfy that need without TV. TV is not a need, it is a want.

The question is, does it have power over you or do you have power of it? And does one abstain from ALL appearance of evil. In society we may not be able to control what comes before our eyes, but when it comes to TV, we have control; so what do WE allow to come before our eyes.

This is what David had to say...

Psa 101:2 I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.
Psa 101:3 I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.

[Balanced]

I and my WPF pastor has agreed that there are some good things on tv, however you have to wade through the much bad to get to the little good;

At a youth camp earlier this week Bro. Mark Copeland had a box of garbage. He had filled it by dumping a garbage can into the box. He had the kids come up and look in it and they were all holding their noses from the smell.

He mentioned that there were some good things on TV just as there were some good things in the box of garbage. He then dug in the box and found a slightly over ripe banana. He took out the banana and proceeded to peel it as the kids were grossing out. He explained that it was still in the peeling and the banana itself hadn't touched the garbage.

He then took a bite of the banana and the kids really grossed out then. As he threw the banana back into the box he said "'The next time I want a banana I will get it from the grocery store"


Why did though the trash to get the good if you can just get the good somewhere else?

[Sam]

At a youth camp earlier this week Bro. Mark Copeland had a box of garbage. He had filled it by dumping a garbage can into the box. He had the kids come up and look in it and they were all holding their noses from the smell.

He mentioned that there were some good things on TV just as there were some good things in the box of garbage. He then dug in the box and found a slightly over ripe banana. He took out the banana and proceeded to peel it as the kids were grossing out. He explained that it was still in the peeling and the banana itself hadn't touched the garbage.

He then took a bite of the banana and the kids really grossed out then. As he threw the banana back into the box he said "'The next time I want a banana I will get it from the grocery store"






Why did though the trash to get the good if you can just get the good somewhere else?

Couldn't that same example apply to a computer?

[Brad Murphy]

Couldn't that same example apply to a computer?

Shhhhhh! It's not a windmill, it's a dragon!

[Balanced]

Couldn't that same example apply to a computer?

Actually, no. I think the comparing of TV and Internet is bunk. theoldpaths made a good point in and earlier post.

The problem I had when I experimented outside of the UPC/WPF was that you could find a decent program to watch, but then a commercial comes on with a half-naked woman advertising bras; etc.

You really can't control TV. Even good programs have bad commercial or advertisements for other programs that are bad. Then when the good program is over the next programs starts without you doing anything, and it might not be a good program.

On the Internet I have to choose every website I go to. My filter blocks inappropriate content. Even inappropriate banner ads are blocked. Most pop-ups are also blocked. Usually when someone is having lots of problems with pop-ups it is caused by spyware.

Then there is the issue of TV being passive vs. Internet being active.


"You watch television to turn your brain off and you work on your computer when you want to turn your brain on."
-- Steve Jobs, co-founder of Apple Computer and Pixar, in Macworld Magazine, February 2004

[Tim Rutledge]

Actually, no. I think the comparing of TV and Internet is bunk. theoldpaths made a good point in and earlier post.



You really can't control TV. Even good programs have bad commercial or advertisements for other programs that are bad. Then when the good program is over the next programs starts without you doing anything, and it might not be a good program.

On the Internet I have to choose every website I go to. My filter blocks inappropriate content. Even inappropriate banner ads are blocked. Most pop-ups are also blocked. Usually when someone is having lots of problems with pop-ups it is caused by spyware.

Then there is the issue of TV being passive vs. Internet being active.


"You watch television to turn your brain off and you work on your computer when you want to turn your brain on."
-- Steve Jobs, co-founder of Apple Computer and Pixar, in Macworld Magazine, February 2004


My concern is that this technology (internet) is not going away. And I, as a parent, have to learn how to decipher things, and teach my children how to use the tools available to them, for educational purposes and not use technology (tv, internet) for entertainment. My responsibility is to my children. And I am honestly seeking anwers to how we wll educate, and not seem hypocritical. I belonged to a church that taught against tv. (UPC) Thats where God planted me and established me in the Apostles doctrine. God chose to put me there. I will not go back to having tv in my house. Tv is for what.. everything I need is on line. I know internet is potentially much worse then tv. That fact does not let me rationalize against the 14 yrs. I was taught against tv. Our Church pulled from the UPC, we are in fellowship with the WPF out of Tulsa. I know many oneness churches have not taught against tv.. and I do not judge them saints at all. I appreciate AFF (usually).
I honestly don't like the contention. Anyways... my thoughts. God bless.
TR

[CC1]

Lets cut out all this chit chat and get down to the serious business at Tulsa. I want to know from some of you folks who went and can give first hand accounts - Did they actually forbid everybody from smiling in pictures or did that just come natural for these folks?

[Sam]

Lets cut out all this chit chat and get down to the serious business at Tulsa. I want to know from some of you folks who went and can give first hand accounts - Did they actually forbid everybody from smiling in pictures or did that just come natural for these folks?

Careful, now.

[Tim Rutledge]

Lets cut out all this chit chat and get down to the serious business at Tulsa. I want to know from some of you folks who went and can give first hand accounts - Did they actually forbid everybody from smiling in pictures or did that just come natural for these folks?

I was at the meeting. A bit somber maybe. It was a serious meeting, a lot of people were hurt that it had to come down to leaving the upci. The guy taking the pictures was hired by the upc. j/k

[jaxfam6]

I was at the meeting. A bit somber maybe. It was a serious meeting, a lot of people were hurt that it had to come down to leaving the upci. The guy taking the pictures was hired by the upc. j/k

Tim becareful now, you get to funny the WPF may not let you attend their meetings.


=)

[TCSQ]

Lets cut out all this chit chat and get down to the serious business at Tulsa. I want to know from some of you folks who went and can give first hand accounts - Did they actually forbid everybody from smiling in pictures or did that just come natural for these folks?

I think someone already mentioned the obvious, but here goes again. I was there and NO no one was forbidden to smile, (And yes I DO know you were being facetious) but you must keep in mind that to most of these people the very core that they had built their lives around, The United Pentecostal Church was something that for each individual there , there was an individual reason that they felt absolutely unable to continue with it any longer. And so many of them find themselves in a vacuum, trying desperately to make sense of what has happened.


I have heard people (again I have an official of the UPC as my house guest for a season and he is MOST vocal about his opinion concerning the happenings in the Western District that he is part of) ) and they feel that it was ALL political. That seems rather simplistic to me as while there are undoubtedly those who WERE motivated SOLELY and COMPLETELY by political ambition, (Can YOU say Nate Wilson?) most of the "little" guys were there more from disgust with the organization that had for decades in some cases and lifetimes in others, so completely held their loyalties.

Its really sad, and yet its not and then it is again. because some of us feel so caught between Egypt and the Promised land and feel that we are being held back from really going over EN MASSE into the land that our forefathers only beheld from far off. And so it appears to some of us that God is beginning the business of smashing the boxes that men have built over the past hundred years of this revival, and what happens???? A bunch of people break out of one box and immediately seek to begin construction on another!

Its sad all the way around.

[tstew]

I think someone already mentioned the obvious, but here goes again. I was there and NO no one was forbidden to smile, (And yes I DO know you were being facetious) but you must keep in mind that to most of these people the very core that they had built their lives around, The United Pentecostal Church was something that for each individual there , there was an individual reason that they felt absolutely unable to continue with it any longer. And so many of them find themselves in a vacuum, trying desperately to make sense of what has happened.


I have heard people (again I have an official of the UPC as my house guest for a season and he is MOST vocal about his opinion concerning the happenings in the Western District that he is part of) ) and they feel that it was ALL political. That seems rather simplistic to me as while there are undoubtedly those who WERE motivated SOLELY and COMPLETELY by political ambition, (Can YOU say Nate Wilson?) most of the "little" guys were there more from disgust with the organization that had for decades in some cases and lifetimes in others, so completely held their loyalties.

Its really sad, and yet its not and then it is again. because some of us feel so caught between Egypt and the Promised land and feel that we are being held back from really going over EN MASSE into the land that our forefathers only beheld from far off. And so it appears to some of us that God is beginning the business of smashing the boxes that men have built over the past hundred years of this revival, and what happens???? A bunch of people break out of one box and immediately seek to begin construction on another!

Its sad all the way around.

TC, I honestly feel that if there is a chance of anything being reconciled, it will be through people like you. Your genuine concern, convictions, and level-headedness are apparent and refreshing. I am just praying that God will intervene on behalf of all who are sincere and pure in their motives and actions. I also pray that if there are any political or ambitious motivations in anyone, that they will not lead to the harm of any sincere-hearted people.

[Brad Murphy]

I strongly believe that the anti-television folks place their anti-television stance above God Himself... this single, silly superstition against this communications medium is more important to them than all of the things that they have in common with other people of Apostolic faith.

We can talk about push-pull technology and internet filters all day long, but what it really comes down to is a double-standard. Every time you tune to a channel on a television either digital or analog, you are tuning to a specific frequency and you are subject to whatever content the owners of that frequency have placed there. Every time you go to a website, you are routed to a specific IP address on the internet, and are subject ot whatever content the owners have placed there. With websites, there is usually content from multiple IP addresses embedded in the sites, making you also subject to any links placed on a site. Filters as well as parental controls are available for both the internet and television, and those filters are based either on keywords or a black list that is maintained by someone else and subject to someone's else's "discernment" as to what you should and should not be viewing.

You can take college courses on the internet, you can take college courses on television.... you can take defensive driving on the internet, and you can also take defensive driving on cable television. If we bring in the "what about the commercials" argument, then that should apply to radio as well... if we bring in the "moving pictures" argument, then that should encompass video as well. I'm just trying to quickly touch on most of the arguments I have seen trying to justify the anti-television stance.

They have a few people with admittedly excellent vocabulary throwing around enough technical jargon of the differences to keep the non-technical people confused and unable to respond without studying the technology for themselves. The technologies are merging, as most people will admit. These people would rather wait until the merge completes so that they never have to admit they were wrong in making television a point of fellowship or sometimes even a salvational issue. All it EVER was, was a communications medium that could be used for whatever you wish it to be used for, just like any other forms of communication... audio, video, or written, bi-directional or not.

[TCSQ]

[QUOTE=Brad Murphy;513635]I strongly believe that the anti-television folks place their anti-television stance above God Himself... this single, silly superstition against this communications medium is more important to them than all of the things that they have in common with other people of Apostolic faith.


I know it seems that way on the surface, but in my opinion TV has virtually nothing to do with them turning in their cards with the UPC. The shennanigans that have been going on with many from the chairman on down, (and ESPECIALLY the foreign missions department and the outrageous matters that go on there in the "upper level management" people has brought many many of these men and women to a tearful, life altering crisis or decision making crossroads. Many of them have just come to the point where the image they had of the UPC confronted with the reality of what it was fast becoming in THEIR experience just allowed them to walk that road no longer.

One thing that is interesting is that you feel they wanted to stop participating with OTHER Apostolic people based on a common salvation rather than common stance as to this issue (tv) or others, but aactually that has been the vey NATURE of the organization being discussed. If you DOUBT that ask any long time Apostoluc minister who does NOT hold license with that organization and many of them can tell you tales of such pain and often times hilarious yet still sad stories of the wall that has been built up BY the UPC and the rest of the Jesus Name movement for decades.


I know that in MY personal experience on SEVERAL continents and through three decades with that group I cant think of a SINGLE positive experience with them, in fact some of them perpretrated by their regiona directors of missions both in Asia and the European Middle East region are of such a nature that they can only be called deliberately and calculatedly EVIL (you may quote me) that and the destruction that the foreign missions department has either wittingly or unwittingly wrought upon national indigenous Apostolic group after national indigenous Apostolic group especially in many of the former "Iron Curtain countries" as well as in central and south America has become known among many of the missions minded pastors here at home and when they read the correspondence issued from Headquarters on the various situations it makes them see that what they have tied to themselves and the Public image it has created for the run of the mill saint are incredibly incredibly at odds. Many of them feel exceptionally disturbed at perpetrating on the saints what many of them have come to firmly believe is a lie.

I think that for a good many of them the truth of what they were a part of really hit home when they saw the pleading letters of Brother Solomon who heads the men in Ethiopia who did NOT embrace the doctrine that Jesus possessed no humanity in him at all but was merely a very solid theophany or appearance of God, they had been horribly and savagely persecuted By brother Teklemarian, having not only their own lives jeopardized, as Teklemarian notified the secret police of that former communist dictatorship of any of their meetings so that they could be brutally beaten, arrested, and thrown into prison, but also his crusade to either confiscate every church building that these people had built or at the least have it demolished and every stick, wire or brick carted away so that they could not rebuild. The letter sent out directly to Brother Haney pleading with him to use whatever remaining pull he might have with Brother Teklemarian for mercy and a cessation of this persecution of the brothers for their stance for truth ( the truth of the incarnation of God in HUMAN flesh,). What was the reply from Brothrer Haney the chairman of the the organization they held in such high esteem their entire lives to the savagely persecuted men and women of Ethipoia????

"This is the only response you will receive from us, DO NOT LOOK TO THE UNITED PENTECOSTAL CHURCH FOR HOPE"

Followed up by a letter from the foreign missions regional director NOT to the saints holding on to truth but rather to the Apostolic Church of Ethiopia ministers (the group dissfellowshipped ...supposedly but dont you believe it) BY the UPC for its "Divine Flesh" doctrine telling them they had nothing to worry about from the UPC that they were NOT going to offer any kind of fellowship to these brave men and women being persecuted for truth, but rather that the men back in Ameerrica who were upset by the direction taken by Brother Teklemarian and his group were actually men like the Cretans, Lust filled men "whose God is their Bellies" (Brother Richardson.)

This of course gets even MORE despicable, and is but the very most tiniest part of an iceberg that lays BELOW the surface of the face put forward by the UPC GOVERNING body. Does the average member of the UPC have even an Inkiling of the iniquity going on behind the scenes? Not on your life, (but GOD does) to them UPC means that form of doctrine and clean living that was delivered to the saints back in Jerusalem so many centuries ago and any attack on IT is to them the same as an attack on FAITH. I firmly believe that it is HIGH TIME that we wake up to the fact that the structure of the Lords church is rrevealed in the Bible, and doesnt include the kind of horrific activity going on in the high places of man made organization.



And to those who think I am "UPC BASHING" believe me they ALL have the same nature at heart, that nature that showed itself back before Abraham when a group of people felt the overwhelming need to "Make us a name, and build us a tower to reach unto heaven lest we be scatterred" unfortunately they ALL have one thing in common....they are all made of Man Made Bricks held together with Slime. I believe the POSITIVE outcome of all of this is that there IS a very agitated but prayerfully so group of YOUNG men and women of God who are ready to step UP into the dimension of solely basing our fellowship AND COOPERATION with each other based on our being washed in Jesus blood baptized in Jesus name and filled with Jesus spirit, rather than some cardboard laminate card issued from Saint Louis, Mo. (Or Shelbyville or Memphis or Indianapolis or what have you.) Gentlemen you may now commence firing......

[Tim Rutledge]

I strongly believe that the anti-television folks place their anti-television stance above God Himself... this single, silly superstition against this communications medium is more important to them than all of the things that they have in common with other people of Apostolic faith.

We can talk about push-pull technology and internet filters all day long, but what it really comes down to is a double-standard. Every time you tune to a channel on a television either digital or analog, you are tuning to a specific frequency and you are subject to whatever content the owners of that frequency have placed there. Every time you go to a website, you are routed to a specific IP address on the internet, and are subject ot whatever content the owners have placed there. With websites, there is usually content from multiple IP addresses embedded in the sites, making you also subject to any links placed on a site. Filters as well as parental controls are available for both the internet and television, and those filters are based either on keywords or a black list that is maintained by someone else and subject to someone's else's "discernment" as to what you should and should not be viewing.

You can take college courses on the internet, you can take college courses on television.... you can take defensive driving on the internet, and you can also take defensive driving on cable television. If we bring in the "what about the commercials" argument, then that should apply to radio as well... if we bring in the "moving pictures" argument, then that should encompass video as well. I'm just trying to quickly touch on most of the arguments I have seen trying to justify the anti-television stance.

They have a few people with admittedly excellent vocabulary throwing around enough technical jargon of the differences to keep the non-technical people confused and unable to respond without studying the technology for themselves. The technologies are merging, as most people will admit. These people would rather wait until the merge completes so that they never have to admit they were wrong in making television a point of fellowship or sometimes even a salvational issue. All it EVER was, was a communications medium that could be used for whatever you wish it to be used for, just like any other forms of communication... audio, video, or written, bi-directional or not.

Br. Brad.. I do not question your sincerity and I am in no way trying to attack you personally. A majority of the oneness (upci) Apostolics have been against tv for a long time. The Church I attend teaches against tv, hollywood and any entertainment videos. Now that internet is here, is it ok to be entertained by hollywood. Home videos, and videos of news events and things that happen in real life.. are not the same as a story plot written by ungodly men. Being entertained to fulfil your carnal lusts, is, and always will be, wrong. A commercial on tv program which you see, is a lot different then a commercial on the radio, you hear. The difference? Seeing a 3/4 naked woman... and someone describing a 3/4 naked women. The eyes have a whole lot more nerves going to the brain then your ears. Your eyes immeasurably effect your heart and mind, more then your hearing does.
If you ever heard my Bishop teach, and preach, against tv.. you would probably see it differently. If things are not preached.. they generally are not done. I'm not sure why I'm on this forum. 95% of what I read here.. is not my brand of Christianity. I'm I better?... no... just blessed with great, balanced, uncompromising leadership. Just pray for us poor pitiful, narrow eyed fella's in the WPF.. maybe we'll get more spiritual and get a tv. What would be Verbal Beans position. Sorry I rambled a bit... I'm working a double shift (16 hrs).. and I'm a bit tired. No hard feelings. God bless.
TR

[Barb]

Br. Brad.. I do not question your sincerity and I am in no way trying to attack you personally. A majority of the oneness (upci) Apostolics have been against tv for a long time. The Church I attend teaches against tv, hollywood and any entertainment videos. Now that internet is here, is it ok to be entertained by hollywood. Home videos, and videos of news events and things that happen in real life.. are not the same as a story plot written by ungodly men. Being entertained to fulfil your carnal lusts, is, and always will be, wrong. A commercial on tv program which you see, is a lot different then a commercial on the radio, you hear. The difference? Seeing a 3/4 naked woman... and someone describing a 3/4 naked women. The eyes have a whole lot more nerves going to the brain then your ears. Your eyes immeasurably effect your heart and mind, more then your hearing does.
If you ever heard my Bishop teach, and preach, against tv.. you would probably see it differently. If things are not preached.. they generally are not done. I'm not sure why I'm on this forum. 95% of what I read here.. is not my brand of Christianity. I'm I better?... no... just blessed with great, balanced, uncompromising leadership. Just pray for us poor pitiful, narrow eyed fella's in the WPF.. maybe we'll get more spiritual and get a tv. What would be Verbal Beans position. Sorry I rambled a bit... I'm working a double shift (16 hrs).. and I'm a bit tired. No hard feelings. God bless.
TR

Not your brand of Christianity...hmmmm...

I don't post much anymore, Bro. Tim, and seldom get into these discussions because they have been run ito the ground. Further, the opinions given by both sides will not change the mind of the other.

HOWEVER, your post has brought me out of the lurking stage...

Let me say at the outset that you and I are from the same State of MI...

The UPCI assembly here has never taught against television, rather using godly common sense...in other words, there is a knob or button on the clicker...turn it off if it is offensive.

For example, there are now commercials for men dealing with a subject that is quite delicate and is of no interest to me, so when it comes on, I simply change the channel. It's really easy to do...

It boggles my mind that people in leadership positions trust Saints to allow the Holy Ghost to guide them in every area BUT television.

They'll trust us to not go to places on the internet where we shouldn't or not engage in wrong relationships, yet when it comes to TV they think we lose all of the Spirit and are loosey goosey...can't figure this out.

As for the WPF, the founder of this org is my former pastor, and though I respect him in many ways, this new org is...something else.

They claim to not proselyte UPCI ministers, YET my brother is a UPCI pastor, not at all interested in the WPF, and they keep sending him literature.

They claim TV is not the issue, but it is ALL they talk about it seems.

The WPF website reeks with "we are not like you." And this "brand of Christianity" is okay?!

Sorry, but it doesn't meet mine...

I am UPCI by church affiliation and believe in much of the same principles as you, aside from the TV issue, yet that alone would probably put me in the same boat as some of those you place in the 95% range.

Wonder how the Lord views all of this?!

What does He think of families being split and divided, not to mention long-time brethren...brethren who believe the same Gospel message?!

I wonder what He thinks of all of this?!

[Brad Murphy]

I know that in MY personal experience on SEVERAL continents and through three decades with that group I cant think of a SINGLE positive experience with them, in fact some of them perpretrated by their regiona directors of missions both in Asia and the European Middle East region are of such a nature that they can only be called deliberately and calculatedly EVIL (you may quote me) that and the destruction that the foreign missions department has either wittingly or unwittingly wrought upon national indigenous Apostolic group after national indigenous Apostolic group especially in many of the former "Iron Curtain countries" as well as in central and south America has become known among many of the missions minded pastors here at home and when they read the correspondence issued from Headquarters on the various situations it makes them see that what they have tied to themselves and the Public image it has created for the run of the mill saint are incredibly incredibly at odds. Many of them feel exceptionally disturbed at perpetrating on the saints what many of them have come to firmly believe is a lie.
And to those who think I am "UPC BASHING" believe me they ALL have the same nature at heart, that nature that showed itself back before Abraham when a group of people felt the overwhelming need to "Make us a name, and build us a tower to reach unto heaven lest we be scatterred" unfortunately they ALL have one thing in common....they are all made of Man Made Bricks held together with Slime. I believe the POSITIVE outcome of all of this is that there IS a very agitated but prayerfully so group of YOUNG men and women of God who are ready to step UP into the dimension of solely basing our fellowship AND COOPERATION with each other based on our being washed in Jesus blood baptized in Jesus name and filled with Jesus spirit, rather than some cardboard laminate card issued from Saint Louis, Mo. (Or Shelbyville or Memphis or Indianapolis or what have you.) Gentlemen you may now commence firing......

I just wanted to respond to part of this (and don't worry, I'm not going to continue in a debate or start the old one back up again, I just hadn't said anything on this issue in six months or a year so had to get it out of my system.)

Being somewhat of a traveler myself, I can say that I have been in homes of people in India that consist of two rooms and plastic chairs, and the entire family sleeps in a room that isn't much bigger than my closet, yet they have television with HBO! These are families that make literally less than $2.00 US a day, and when we bring them broken toys from the US, they think it is Christmas time. How is it NOT a good thing to bring the "gospel" into their home? If it is because then it will be compared to the other television preachers, I think it's too late. The world doesn't care if you guys are on television or not. I can throw a stone and hit 10 different churches that have 10 different "revelations" about what it takes to be saved... you aren't gonna make it any more confusing by putting one more message on television...

The UPC manual contradicted itself by NOT allowing television, because their mission statement says something to affect they they want to bring the whole gospel to the whole world using whatever means necessary. If they are serious... then put it on television in Asia Pacific... Latin America, Africa, etc. Or does it take a white missionary in a suit to bring the gospel (rolled up into American culture and the American version of what the church is supposed to be) to these poor people?

People may or may not watch it, but at least it is out there if they choose to watch it... and those of you who believe the rapture will take place as soon as that last person has heard the gospel, will just be on your way a little bit sooner than before.

[Brad Murphy]

Br. Brad.. I do not question your sincerity and I am in no way trying to attack you personally. A majority of the oneness (upci) Apostolics have been against tv for a long time. The Church I attend teaches against tv, hollywood and any entertainment videos. Now that internet is here, is it ok to be entertained by hollywood. Home videos, and videos of news events and things that happen in real life.. are not the same as a story plot written by ungodly men. Being entertained to fulfil your carnal lusts, is, and always will be, wrong. A commercial on tv program which you see, is a lot different then a commercial on the radio, you hear. The difference? Seeing a 3/4 naked woman... and someone describing a 3/4 naked women. The eyes have a whole lot more nerves going to the brain then your ears. Your eyes immeasurably effect your heart and mind, more then your hearing does.
If you ever heard my Bishop teach, and preach, against tv.. you would probably see it differently. If things are not preached.. they generally are not done. I'm not sure why I'm on this forum. 95% of what I read here.. is not my brand of Christianity. I'm I better?... no... just blessed with great, balanced, uncompromising leadership. Just pray for us poor pitiful, narrow eyed fella's in the WPF.. maybe we'll get more spiritual and get a tv. What would be Verbal Beans position. Sorry I rambled a bit... I'm working a double shift (16 hrs).. and I'm a bit tired. No hard feelings. God bless.
TR

No offense taken... like I said in my previous response, was just getting it out of my system. By the way, you can just call me Brad... I don't use titles on others and don't expect them to be used on me. :) I am pretty familiar with the Pentecostal culture, having grown up in the UPC and being a PK myself... I'm part of the evil Murphy family that L.E. Westberg said came up to Kansas to get rid of all their standards because we rented a skating rink and the YMCA for the church people to swim in (no mixed bathing...).

Also - I find the written word more stimulating than pictures... you can imagine anything, and as spectacular as airbrushing and special effects are, I can usually think of something even more intense, etc. than any picture, moving or otherwise. Although I do understand that there is some book out that the ultra-cons (my label) like that talks about moving pictures being more stimulating, but I haven't had a chance to read it yet... it would probably just annoy me so I'll have to be really bored. :)

[Barb]

One more thing, Bro. Tim...you stated that you don't know why you are on this forum. Well, I can tell you why...

Your are here for the same reason I keep returning...this is an Apostolic forum and you are Apostolic.

Now I will be the first to tell you that I don't agree with everything posted on this board, but others, including admins, have made the same claim.

But you know, that's okay, because diversity is not wrong. It can't be, or else the UPCI has been wrong from its inception. The United Pentecostal Church, International was established on diversity, with the commom bond being obedience to Acts 2:38.

There are many today, as back then, who believed salvation takes place at belief and repentance, but is always followed with obedience in baptism in the Name of Jesus and Spirit infilling.

This diversity was not something that divided the brethren in 1945. My thinking is, if there was enough in common for a merger, and if Bros. Witherspoon, Fauss, Hanby, Chambers, and more didn't have a problem calling those of differing view brethren, what doth hinder me?!

You have a voice here, Bro. Tim, as much as those I strongly disagree with.

I hope your statement was a passing one and you will stay...

[jaxfam6]

My whole problem with organizations is this: SEPERATION. They create differences. Oh I can fellowship this church because they believe like we do. I can't fellowship that church because they allow Christmas trees or wedding bands, or (insert your word here). Stay with me on this, SOUND FAMILIAR? Sounds like racism to me. They would not think of discriminating against someone for the color of their skin but will on the ideology, not theology, of what one must DO to be saved.
I like what Barb said about the commonality of obedience to Act 2:38. THAT IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT, NOT RATHER THEY HAVE LONG SLEEVES OR CUT HAIR OR TV'S, OR PANTS. Do you disfellowship your whole family because they do not believe exactly like you do? I don't. They are my family and I love them.
If you believe that Jesus came to Earth lived among men, suffered strips on his back for our healing, being hung on a cross for our sins, and rose three days later from the grave, for our redemption, with the keys to death, hell and the grave then hopefully you will follow through with that belief and obey what is written. If you can do that I can overlook our differences and love you and call you my 'family'. You are my brother or sister in Christ. THAT IS WHAT WE ALL NEED TO GET TO THE POINT OF UNDERSTANDING. If we can then we WILL SEE THE BIGGEST REVIVAL EVER SEEN. When it is no longer about your church or my church. No longer about ALJC, UPCI, AAFJC, PAW, AMF, WPF, or whatever other organizational or church name we can add in here then we will have the MOVE OF GOD we all desire to see.

[Threads]

Not your brand of Christianity...hmmmm...

I don't post much anymore, Bro. Tim, and seldom get into these discussions because they have been run ito the ground. Further, the opinions given by both sides will not change the mind of the other.

HOWEVER, your post has brought me out of the lurking stage...

Let me say at the outset that you and I are from the same State of MI...

The UPCI assembly here has never taught against television, rather using godly common sense...in other words, there is a knob or button on the clicker...turn it off if it is offensive.

For example, there are now commercials for men dealing with a subject that is quite delicate and is of no interest to me, so when it comes on, I simply change the channel. It's really easy to do...

It boggles my mind that people in leadership positions trust Saints to allow the Holy Ghost to guide them in every area BUT television.

They'll trust us to not go to places on the internet where we shouldn't or not engage in wrong relationships, yet when it comes to TV they think we lose all of the Spirit and are loosey goosey...can't figure this out.

As for the WPF, the founder of this org is my former pastor, and though I respect him in many ways, this new org is...something else.

They claim to not proselyte UPCI ministers, YET my brother is a UPCI pastor, not at all interested in the WPF, and they keep sending him literature.

They claim TV is not the issue, but it is ALL they talk about it seems.

The WPF website reeks with "we are not like you." And this "brand of Christianity" is okay?!

Sorry, but it doesn't meet mine...

I am UPCI by church affiliation and believe in much of the same principles as you, aside from the TV issue, yet that alone would probably put me in the same boat as some of those you place in the 95% range.

Wonder how the Lord views all of this?!

What does He think of families being split and divided, not to mention long-time brethren...brethren who believe the same Gospel message?!

I wonder what He thinks of all of this?!


Hey Barb, Good post. I have to agree with most of what you have said. I am not going into all the small details as I don't want to get stuck in this drag out, knock out thread. I have sat under two of the commitee members. Knowing these two men and the way they operate has really made me take notice and change some of my train of thought. I think you will agree that something has changed and it went far beyond the TV thing.
My wife and I noted a change when these men were a certain part of a certain conference in a certain place. Funny, the person who runs that conference is now independent, notice that he didn't sign on with this group. It was bad enough that the district split up out here. then this break off. All for what? There are many that are saddened, angry, mad at the way this was done. If you look at the leadership roles, most are filled by people from just a couple of churches. Talk about a self serving, put yourself in a top position because I am somebody just really sucks, to say the least. I could go on but will draw the raff of the know it all's on here, so I will go back on the sidelines. :crazywalls

[Praxeas]

Being entertained to fulfil your carnal lusts, is, and always will be, wrong. Are you saying all entertainment is to fulfill carnal lusts? Or are you saying there is entertainment that does not fulfill carnal lusts?

A commercial on tv program which you see, is a lot different then a commercial on the radio, you hear. The difference? Seeing a 3/4 naked woman... and someone describing a 3/4 naked women. The eyes have a whole lot more nerves going to the brain then your ears. Your eyes immeasurably effect your heart and mind, more then your hearing does.
I see...so It is ok to listen to ungodly stuff as long as you are not watching it?

[Narrow Is The Way]

My whole problem with organizations is this: SEPERATION. They create differences. Oh I can fellowship this church because they believe like we do. I can't fellowship that church because they allow Christmas trees or wedding bands, or (insert your word here). Stay with me on this, SOUND FAMILIAR? Sounds like racism to me. They would not think of discriminating against someone for the color of their skin but will on the ideology, not theology, of what one must DO to be saved.
I like what Barb said about the commonality of obedience to Act 2:38. THAT IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT, NOT RATHER THEY HAVE LONG SLEEVES OR CUT HAIR OR TV'S, OR PANTS. Do you disfellowship your whole family because they do not believe exactly like you do? I don't. They are my family and I love them.
If you believe that Jesus came to Earth lived among men, suffered strips on his back for our healing, being hung on a cross for our sins, and rose three days later from the grave, for our redemption, with the keys to death, hell and the grave then hopefully you will follow through with that belief and obey what is written. If you can do that I can overlook our differences and love you and call you my 'family'. You are my brother or sister in Christ. THAT IS WHAT WE ALL NEED TO GET TO THE POINT OF UNDERSTANDING. If we can then we WILL SEE THE BIGGEST REVIVAL EVER SEEN. When it is no longer about your church or my church. No longer about ALJC, UPCI, AAFJC, PAW, AMF, WPF, or whatever other organizational or church name we can add in here then we will have the MOVE OF GOD we all desire to see.My whole problem with organizations is this: SEPERATION. They create differences. Oh I can fellowship this church because they believe like we do. I can't fellowship that church because they allow Christmas trees or wedding bands, or (insert your word here). Stay with me on this, SOUND FAMILIAR? Sounds like racism to me. They would not think of discriminating against someone for the color of their skin but will on the ideology, not theology, of what one must DO to be saved.
I like what Barb said about the commonality of obedience to Act 2:38. THAT IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT, NOT RATHER THEY SMOKE POT, DRINK BEER, AND CURSE. Do you disfellowship your whole family because they do not believe exactly like you do? I don't. They are my family and I love them.
If you believe that Jesus came to Earth lived among men, suffered strips on his back for our healing, being hung on a cross for our sins, and rose three days later from the grave, for our redemption, with the keys to death, hell and the grave then hopefully you will follow through with that belief and obey what is written. If you can do that I can overlook our differences and love you and call you my 'family'. You are my brother or sister in Christ. THAT IS WHAT WE ALL NEED TO GET TO THE POINT OF UNDERSTANDING. If we can then we WILL SEE THE BIGGEST REVIVAL EVER SEEN. When it is no longer about your church or my church. No longer about ALJC, UPCI, AAFJC, PAW, AMF, WPF, or whatever other organizational or church name we can add in here then we will have the MOVE OF GOD we all desire to see.

[Praxeas]

My whole problem with organizations is this: SEPERATION. They create differences. Oh I can fellowship this church because they believe like we do. I can't fellowship that church because they allow Christmas trees or wedding bands, or (insert your word here). Stay with me on this, SOUND FAMILIAR? Sounds like racism to me. They would not think of discriminating against someone for the color of their skin but will on the ideology, not theology, of what one must DO to be saved.
I like what Barb said about the commonality of obedience to Act 2:38. THAT IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT, NOT RATHER THEY SMOKE POT, DRINK BEER, AND CURSE. Do you disfellowship your whole family because they do not believe exactly like you do? I don't. They are my family and I love them.
If you believe that Jesus came to Earth lived among men, suffered strips on his back for our healing, being hung on a cross for our sins, and rose three days later from the grave, for our redemption, with the keys to death, hell and the grave then hopefully you will follow through with that belief and obey what is written. If you can do that I can overlook our differences and love you and call you my 'family'. You are my brother or sister in Christ. THAT IS WHAT WE ALL NEED TO GET TO THE POINT OF UNDERSTANDING. If we can then we WILL SEE THE BIGGEST REVIVAL EVER SEEN. When it is no longer about your church or my church. No longer about ALJC, UPCI, AAFJC, PAW, AMF, WPF, or whatever other organizational or church name we can add in here then we will have the MOVE OF GOD we all desire to see.
those don't have to be part of an organization.

An organization is to not have the opposite, disorganization or even chaos. Organizations when done right are good things

[Tim Rutledge]

PtL. Everbody.. My thoughts... If your Pastor allows you to have and watch tv, its not my business to try to change you, or judge you. Barb, I appreciate your good attitude. Typing on this forum is really not my thing. Contraversial subjects, I am going to learn to leave alone. And I guess when I say "my brand" of Christianity that strikes a nerve. I would guess most of you would, I hope, be against a bathing suit contest, for young women in the Church. If your not against that..your not even Apostolic. That is not my brand of Christianity. Now.. when I say my brand, I mean things I whole heartedly disagree with. Just like if you whole heartedly disagreed with the bathing suit thing, that would not be your brand of Christianity. Of course there are varying opinions on a multitude of subjects in Christiandom that make up "different brands". I have been taught against hellivision for 17 yrs., and you will never convince me it belongs in a saints home. I do believe in wholesome, family entertainment, and fun. And honestly.. if God would of planted me in a different congregation..maybe I'd have a tv too. But I had to bloom where I was placed. And I will hold fast to the traditions, and my teachings. God bless.
TR

[jaxfam6]

I like what Barb said about the commonality of obedience to Act 2:38. THAT IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT, NOT RATHER THEY HAVE LONG SLEEVES OR CUT HAIR OR TV'S, OR PANTS. Do you disfellowship your whole family because they do not believe exactly like you do? I don't. They are my family and I love them.


I like what Barb said about the commonality of obedience to Act 2:38. THAT IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT, NOT RATHER THEY SMOKE POT, DRINK BEER, AND CURSE. Do you disfellowship your whole family because they do not believe exactly like you do? I don't. They are my family and I love them.



Huge difference in these items. That all depends on some peoples ideas on the beer though.

[Narrow Is The Way]

PtL. Everbody.. My thoughts... If your Pastor allows you to have and watch tv, its not my business to try to change you, or judge you. Barb, I appreciate your good attitude. Typing on this forum is really not my thing. Contraversial subjects, I am going to learn to leave alone. And I guess when I say "my brand" of Christianity that strikes a nerve. I would guess most of you would, I hope, be against a bathing suit contest, for young women in the Church. If your not against that..your not even Apostolic. That is not my brand of Christianity. Now.. when I say my brand, I mean things I whole heartedly disagree with. Just like if you whole heartedly disagreed with the bathing suit thing, that would not be your brand of Christianity. Of course there are varying opinions on a multitude of subjects in Christiandom that make up "different brands". I have been taught against hellivision for 17 yrs., and you will never convince me it belongs in a saints home. I do believe in wholesome, family entertainment, and fun. And honestly.. if God would of planted me in a different congregation..maybe I'd have a tv too. But I had to bloom where I was placed. And I will hold fast to the traditions, and my teachings. God bless.
TR Great post. Well said.

[Barb]

PtL. Everbody.. My thoughts... If your Pastor allows you to have and watch tv, its not my business to try to change you, or judge you. Barb, I appreciate your good attitude. Typing on this forum is really not my thing. Contraversial subjects, I am going to learn to leave alone. And I guess when I say "my brand" of Christianity that strikes a nerve. I would guess most of you would, I hope, be against a bathing suit contest, for young women in the Church. If your not against that..your not even Apostolic. That is not my brand of Christianity. Now.. when I say my brand, I mean things I whole heartedly disagree with. Just like if you whole heartedly disagreed with the bathing suit thing, that would not be your brand of Christianity. Of course there are varying opinions on a multitude of subjects in Christiandom that make up "different brands". I have been taught against hellivision for 17 yrs., and you will never convince me it belongs in a saints home. I do believe in wholesome, family entertainment, and fun. And honestly.. if God would of planted me in a different congregation..maybe I'd have a tv too. But I had to bloom where I was placed. And I will hold fast to the traditions, and my teachings. God bless.
TR

Thank you, Bro. Tim, for your nice remark about me...I admit that like every other living soul, it is often a struggle.

Before I ride back off once again into the sunset of lurking, let me just say that I respect where you are coming from, and I understand.

I want you to know that I am not trying to convince you to own a television. That is your conviction and that is fine for you. But by the same token, it should be noted that those of us who do have one in our homes are not feeding our carnal lusts.

Speaking for myself, if that was what I was after, TV would NOT be the place to go. The internet holds plenty of that if that is what I was after.

One more point and then I'm off my soapbox...my godsister goes to Bishop Wilson's church in CA, and she and I have gone round and round on this. Her claim is that television is what has branded 'us'...in other words, when the word got out the UPCI now permitted advertising on TV, it showed to the world that we had "let down."

I disagree...if her claim is true, what a terrible commentary on us!!

And it is not even our dress which has branded us. I have a friend who is Bible Methodist and those folks look more like 'us' than we do. They even sing songs that say "I love this narrow way..." I never heard anyone talk about this narrow way but Apostolics...so it's not the dress which defines us.

No, what has made us different than the rest is our Oneness stand and baptism in the Name.

I maintain, and will until I kick, that if the above defines us, it should be what unites us.

God bless you, Bro. Tim...

[CC1]

my godsister goes to Bishop Wilson's church in CA, and she and I have gone round and round on this. Her claim is that television is what has branded 'us'...in other words, when the word got out the UPCI now permitted advertising on TV, it showed to the world that we had "let down."

I disagree...if her claim is true, what a terrible commentary on us!!

And it is not even our dress which has branded us. I have a friend who is Bible Methodist and those folks look more like 'us' than we do. They even sing songs that say "I love this narrow way..." I never heard anyone talk about this narrow way but Apostolics...so it's not the dress which defines us.

No, what has made us different than the rest is our Oneness stand and baptism in the Name.



Barb,

My heart grows heavy when I read an account like the one you posted here. I know that your godsister is a good woman who loves the Lord with all of her heart. However the teaching that causes people to think that the world gives a flip whether the UPC uses or has TV's is just so far off base it is wearying.

Not only is it the Oneness stand and baptism in Jesus name that should make UPC and like folks "stand apart" it should be the love of Christ and fruit of the Spirit in our lives.

[jaxfam6]

Mark 16
14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I think that our belief in the Oneness of God and baptism in His name is our common ground. Yet as I read these scriptures shouldn't we be looking at the signs that follow them that believe? Shouldn't these things be a sign to other believers that, Hey these people believe like we do and the same signs follow them, they must be some pretty good folk. Oh so they don't dress exactly like we do but they have everything else. There has to be something to it. To seperate oursleves from other believers is not what we find in the Bible.
Plus then we have Galatians 5 to use as a measuring stick of the others are not enough.
Galatians 5
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

[Pressing-On]

One more point and then I'm off my soapbox...my godsister goes to Bishop Wilson's church in CA, and she and I have gone round and round on this. Her claim is that television is what has branded 'us'...in other words, when the word got out the UPCI now permitted advertising on TV, it showed to the world that we had "let down."

I disagree...if her claim is true, what a terrible commentary on us!!

And it is not even our dress which has branded us. I have a friend who is Bible Methodist and those folks look more like 'us' than we do. They even sing songs that say "I love this narrow way..." I never heard anyone talk about this narrow way but Apostolics...so it's not the dress which defines us.

No, what has made us different than the rest is our Oneness stand and baptism in the Name.

I maintain, and will until I kick, that if the above defines us, it should be what unites us.


Barb,

My heart grows heavy when I read an account like the one you posted here. I know that your godsister is a good woman who loves the Lord with all of her heart. However the teaching that causes people to think that the world gives a flip whether the UPC uses or has TV's is just so far off base it is wearying.

Not only is it the Oneness stand and baptism in Jesus name that should make UPC and like folks "stand apart" it should be the love of Christ and fruit of the Spirit in our lives.

I wouldn't have weighed in on this discussion, but I would like to share something on this topic of television.

My oldest sister was greatly disappointed when we "finally" purchased a television and watched some videos. She didn't want to commit her life to living the way we did, but she wanted someone to do it.

As strange as it may seem, there are people that don't want to commit to greater things, but they want it to be there for them as a hope, if they ever decide they want to be serious about living for God.

I saw the same thing when I sold radio commercials. The DJ's joked with me about their heathen music, but they didn't want me to listen to their music. They wanted me to remain where I stood.

Some people want to know, that if they could and wanted to, there is a way and a place to walk away from the mainstream.

Just my thoughts.

So, no Barb, I don't totally agree with your post, nor CC1's. Love you both!

[CC1]

Pressing The Iron,

I know exactly what you are talking about however I have a little different take on it. I also worked with a woman who expressed great disappointment at the exUPC church I attended having moved away from the strict legalistic corporate standards,

Of course she had no interest or intention of ever adhering to them herself just as you mentioned.

I don't think it is so much that these folks are wanting UPC / conservative folks to maintain their dress code as a safety net so they have a place to go if they ever decide to as much as it is more of a quaint respect and admiration for folks who will go to such lengths to "seperate" themselves from society and culture.

Just as I respect some of the more radical Roman Catholics who dedicate their lives to God in monastaries my respect for them does not translate into believing they are doing something neccessary or even biblicaly correct.

[Pressing-On]

Pressing The Iron,

I know exactly what you are talking about however I have a little different take on it. I also worked with a woman who expressed great disappointment at the exUPC church I attended having moved away from the strict legalistic corporate standards,

Of course she had no interest or intention of ever adhering to them herself just as you mentioned.

I don't think it is so much that these folks are wanting UPC / conservative folks to maintain their dress code as a safety net so they have a place to go if they ever decide to as much as it is more of a quaint respect and admiration for folks who will go to such lengths to "seperate" themselves from society and culture.

Just as I respect some of the more radical Roman Catholics who dedicate their lives to God in monastaries my respect for them does not translate into believing they are doing something neccessary or even biblicaly correct.
I agree with you, in part.

I agree that some things are not Biblically mandated, but I think that some things are necessary, in the way of convictions, for some people.

They have to set a barrier in their lives in order NOT to go back into what they were before. Some things they must lay down, forever, and never look back.

On the point of some not wanting to be committed, but wanting a place to go if they ever decided to commit - I still feel the same way. It was an impression I received from real people in my life. I knew it was their frame of mind. So for some, perhaps not. For others, yes, they want a point to reach when they are looking for an out.

We want to come together as "Christians/Apostolics", but we all and on various points, have a problem allowing each person, individually, to stand where they feel is comfortable or important for their life or walk. Some stand as a group, and some in a group as individuals. If we can get past our stubborn introspection and find common ground.....

Unfortunately, I see, as history bears out, there will always remain factions - fighting and disagreement. As best we can, we must try to take the high road and stay out of issues that do not involve our particular lives.

God is not the author of confusion. At least we can agree on that.

[Barb]

Barb,

My heart grows heavy when I read an account like the one you posted here. I know that your godsister is a good woman who loves the Lord with all of her heart. However the teaching that causes people to think that the world gives a flip whether the UPC uses or has TV's is just so far off base it is wearying.

Not only is it the Oneness stand and baptism in Jesus name that should make UPC and like folks "stand apart" it should be the love of Christ and fruit of the Spirit in our lives.
Amen...

[Barb]

I wouldn't have weighed in on this discussion, but I would like to share something on this topic of television.

My oldest sister was greatly disappointed when we "finally" purchased a television and watched some videos. She didn't want to commit her life to living the way we did, but she wanted someone to do it.

As strange as it may seem, there are people that don't want to commit to greater things, but they want it to be there for them as a hope, if they ever decide they want to be serious about living for God.

I saw the same thing when I sold radio commercials. The DJ's joked with me about their heathen music, but they didn't want me to listen to their music. They wanted me to remain where I stood.

Some people want to know, that if they could and wanted to, there is a way and a place to walk away from the mainstream.

Just my thoughts.

So, no Barb, I don't totally agree with your post, nor CC1's. Love you both!

Pressing The Iron,

I know exactly what you are talking about however I have a little different take on it. I also worked with a woman who expressed great disappointment at the exUPC church I attended having moved away from the strict legalistic corporate standards,

Of course she had no interest or intention of ever adhering to them herself just as you mentioned.

I don't think it is so much that these folks are wanting UPC / conservative folks to maintain their dress code as a safety net so they have a place to go if they ever decide to as much as it is more of a quaint respect and admiration for folks who will go to such lengths to "seperate" themselves from society and culture.

Just as I respect some of the more radical Roman Catholics who dedicate their lives to God in monastaries my respect for them does not translate into believing they are doing something neccessary or even biblicaly correct.

While I know you are both right, it is still a sad commentary to me that people's idea of righteous living may be based on what we do/don't do, how we look/don't look, rather than on the inward change that has brought about an outward separation.

How's that for a run-on sentence?! :blah

But seriously, how I look is not who I am...I am a child of God because of what HE did.

Having a television and watching a video should not define us...it should be our belief and obedience to the Gospel of Christ.

Just my humble opinon...forgive the soapbox I'm on...

[Pressing-On]

While I know you are both right, it is still a sad commentary to me that people's idea of righteous living may be based on what we do/don't do, how we look/don't look, rather than on the inward change that has brought about an outward separation.

How's that for a run-on sentence?! :blah

But seriously, how I look is not who I am...I am a child of God because of what HE did.

Having a television and watching a video should not define us...it should be our belief and obedience to the Gospel of Christ.

Just my humble opinon...forgive the soapbox I'm on...

How do we weigh out our arguments for or against what we do/don't do, how we look/don't look and our degree of separation when the Word says, "We are epistles read and seen of all men."?

Of course anything we are or become starts in our heart. Whatever is in our heart is going to show in our actions, behaviour, communication, and dress.

We can't stop at the inward, IMO, and dismiss the outward.

The outward will always be an individual choice. That choice will lead that person to a group that upholds that choice.

My only point in the choice is that tolerance for choices and "love" emanating must be who we are.

And, Barb, if love had ruled the day in the hearts of all men, the split of choices would not be a factor or a conversation. Standards would not be a conversation. No one cares what someone's personal preferences are, in any group, as long as "love shows forth to "good works".

I know there are people in every faction that carry "love". It's important to them. So, as "birds of a feather, flock together", we associate ourselves, in our groups with those people that clearly define who we are and what we believe to be God's directive - "love for one another".

We can't throw every group down the drain for some, even leaders who present the wrong view of God's directive.

We are in a situation, right now, and the Lord clearly showed me what my mind should be on the situation. A distinct divide and a correlation, at the same time, between Psalm 74 and 84. The first - utter disregard for the things of God, destruction by man's carnal desires. The latter - "How amiable are they tabernacles, O Lord of hosts!"

The church is still a beautiful thing no matter what man can and will make it!

So, we remain a satisfied doorkeeper - it's better than living in the tent of wickedness.

Just my thoughts......

I thank you for your thoughts, Barb, as well as CC1 - it's beginning to be a very interesting and deep conversation. Loving that!

God bless!

[Barb]

How do we weigh out our arguments for or against what we do/don't do, how we look/don't look and our degree of separation when the Word says, "We are epistles read and seen of all men."?

Of course anything we are or become starts in our heart. Whatever is in our heart is going to show in our actions, behaviour, communication, and dress.

We can't stop at the inward, IMO, and dismiss the outward.

The outward will always be an individual choice. That choice will lead that person to a group that upholds that choice.

My only point in the choice is that tolerance for choices and "love" emanating must be who we are.

And, Barb, if love had ruled the day in the hearts of all men, the split of choices would not be a factor or a conversation. Standards would not be a conversation. No one cares what someone's personal preferences are, in any group, as long as "love shows forth to "good works".

I know there are people in every faction that carry "love". It's important to them. So, as "birds of a feather, flock together", we associate ourselves, in our groups with those people that clearly define who we are and what we believe to be God's directive - "love for one another".

We can't throw every group down the drain for some, even leaders who present the wrong view of God's directive.

We are in a situation, right now, and the Lord clearly showed me what my mind should be on the situation. A distinct divide and a correlation, at the same time, between Psalm 74 and 84. The first - utter disregard for the things of God, destruction by man's carnal desires. The latter - "How amiable are they tabernacles, O Lord of hosts!"

The church is still a beautiful thing no matter what man can and will make it!

So, we remain a satisfied doorkeeper - it's better than living in the tent of wickedness.

Just my thoughts......

I thank you for your thoughts, Barb, as well as CC1 - it's beginning to be a very interesting and deep conversation. Loving that!

God bless!
I don't know, Pressing-On...I just don't know...

While it is true that our lives are read of all men, the outside can be deceiving.

Jesus and the brethren walked up on a tree that from a distance gave an illusion of something it wasn't...it had leaves, covering, but no fruit.

Prayerfully you and CC1 know I am not dismissing the outward, however, I just cannot lay it all on that.

God sees the heart and knows...we may hide from others, but He really knows, even more than we do what our heart is all about.

Those who would cast others to yon lower regions for watching TV...mercy, it boggles my little pea brain as to how they can do it. Have a conviction...certainly, but it would seem that Sanctified folk could show some love and compassion for those who haven't arrived at their particular level of understanding.

[Pressing-On]

I don't know, Pressing-On...I just don't know...

While it is true that our lives are read of all men, the outside can be deceiving.

Jesus and the brethren walked up on a tree that from a distance gave an illusion of something it wasn't...it had leaves, covering, but no fruit.

Prayerfully you and CC1 know I am not dismissing the outward, however, I just cannot lay it all on that.

God sees the heart and knows...we may hide from others, but He really knows, even more than we do what our heart is all about.

Those who would cast others to yon lower regions for watching TV...mercy, it boggles my little pea brain as to how they can do it. Have a conviction...certainly, but it would seem that Sanctified folk could show some love and compassion for those who haven't arrived at their particular level of understanding.

Right, Barb. That was my point - love and compassion.

If that was the riding factor no one would start threads or care one way or the other.

Hopefully we can all learn and do better.

Well, I have errands to run. Have a good day. Thanks for your contributions. I always enjoy them!

[Tim Rutledge]

PtL Everybody.. Some awesome posts. I appreciate the obvious sincerity. My hope is in the Lords mercy, and only by His grace will any of us make it.

[Sam]

Well, we'll see what happens in November.

[theoldpaths]

Paul wrote of some who were enemies of the cross of Christ - he didn't say they were enemies of Christ, but enemies of the CROSS of Christ.

Jesus said, if any man will follow me, let him DENY HIMSELF and take up his cross daily and follow him.

Paul said, I die daily.

Paul understood that the flesh and the Spirit war against each other and that to give the Spirit the upper hand, one had to die daily and to get renewed in the Holy Ghost and to walk in the Spirit so that one would NOT fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Paul said, they that are Christ's, they that belong to him, true Christians, have crucified their flesh with the affections and lusts thereof. If you want to know a true christian, one that belongs to him, it is those who have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts thereof and walk in the Spirit.

You shall know them by their fruit, either they will manifest the fruit of the Spirit or the works of the flesh.

Now, the early Catholics were in the faith, but they departed from the faith - they gave heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. Why were they not able to overcome them? The scriptures give us a clue...

The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own LUSTS shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears and shall turn their ears away from the truth and shall be turned unto fables.

They started in the truth and were able to endure sound doctrine for a while, but eventually they could no longer endure sound doctrine. Why is that? They did not crucify their flesh with the affections and lusts thereof. Apparently they thought that they could live for God without crucifying their flesh. They thought they could live for God AND satisfy their flesh with the affections and lusts.

Now living that way in a true apostolic church will cause one to repent over and over again, but eventually, they will grow tired of that and so after their own LUSTS shall they depart from the faith and get their own teachers who will tickle their ears. They will turn their ears from the truth and shall be turned unto fables - fiction - the inventions of men.

Why do people WANT to watch TV? Why is it? Is it not to satisfy the lusts of the flesh and the lust of the eye? Why is it that some cannot resist the temptation to fulfill the lust of the flesh and eye and to watch tv while others have no problem with it? Is it because that some deny themselves and take up their cross daily and crucify their flesh with the affections and lusts thereof? What is significant about the cross? That is where Jesus' flesh was crucified.

Those who will not deny themselves daily and take up their cross and crucify their flesh with the affections and lusts thereof will continue to find themselves fulfilling the affection and lust of their flesh and will find themselves constantly repenting; especially in a true apostolic church that preaches and teaches sound doctrine. Eventually, they will repent and line up, or they will grow tired and look for a church with a pastor who will preach/teach something that is more to their liking - the liking of the lusts and affections of their flesh that is.

They will begin to make excuses and to JUSTIFY their actions. Interesting how they compare tv to the internet, while the other group that has no problems not watching tv can use the internet with no problem and not need tv; however they can not say the same.

The interesting thing when the kingdom of Israel split was that when Jeroboam rebelled against the God-given authority of Reheboam, Jeroboam put away the Levites out of Israel. He disfellowshipped them. He put away, God's ordained priesthood and came up with his own way. But everyone whose heart sought after God, left Israel and went to Judah and Jerusalem. When Jeroboam realized that during the time of worship,
Israel might go back to Jerusalem, he created a substitute and told them it was too much for them to go to Jerusalem - it was TOO HARD for them.

Kinda reminds me of speaking evil of the way of truth.

[theoldpaths]

As far as SEPARATION is concerned, the WPF was willing to maintain their membership in both organizations; it was the UPC that decided to do something about that.

The interesting thing when the kingdom of Israel split was that when Jeroboam rebelled against the God-given authority of Reheboam, Jeroboam put away the Levites out of Israel. He disfellowshipped them. He put away, God's ordained priesthood and came up with his own. But everyone whose heart sought after God, left Israel and went to Judah and Jerusalem. When Jeroboam realized that during the time of worship, Israel might go back to Jerusalem, he created a substitute and told them it was too much for them to go to Jerusalem - it was TOO HARD for them.

Kinda reminds me of speaking evil of the way of truth.

[Praxeas]

Why do people WANT to watch TV? Why is it? Is it not to satisfy the lusts of the flesh and the lust of the eye?
Sweeping Generalization. Your argument is based on a logical fallacy. That is also very judgmental. You just do not know what everyones motive is

[Narrow Is The Way]

Paul wrote of some who were enemies of the cross of Christ - he didn't say they were enemies of Christ, but enemies of the CROSS of Christ.

Jesus said, if any man will follow me, let him DENY HIMSELF and take up his cross daily and follow him.

Paul said, I die daily.

Paul understood that the flesh and the Spirit war against each other and that to give the Spirit the upper hand, one had to die daily and to get renewed in the Holy Ghost and to walk in the Spirit so that one would NOT fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Paul said, they that are Christ's, they that belong to him, true Christians, have crucified their flesh with the affections and lusts thereof. If you want to know a true christian, one that belongs to him, it is those who have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts thereof and walk in the Spirit.

You shall know them by their fruit, either they will manifest the fruit of the Spirit or the works of the flesh.

Now, the early Catholics were in the faith, but they departed from the faith - they gave heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. Why were they not able to overcome them? The scriptures give us a clue...

The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own LUSTS shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears and shall turn their ears away from the truth and shall be turned unto fables.

They started in the truth and were able to endure sound doctrine for a while, but eventually they could no longer endure sound doctrine. Why is that? They did not crucify their flesh with the affections and lusts thereof. Apparently they thought that they could live for God without crucifying their flesh. They thought they could live for God AND satisfy their flesh with the affections and lusts.

Now living that way in a true apostolic church will cause one to repent over and over again, but eventually, they will grow tired of that and so after their own LUSTS shall they depart from the faith and get their own teachers who will tickle their ears. They will turn their ears from the truth and shall be turned unto fables - fiction - the inventions of men.

Why do people WANT to watch TV? Why is it? Is it not to satisfy the lusts of the flesh and the lust of the eye? Why is it that some cannot resist the temptation to fulfill the lust of the flesh and eye and to watch tv while others have no problem with it? Is it because that some deny themselves and take up their cross daily and crucify their flesh with the affections and lusts thereof? What is significant about the cross? That is where Jesus' flesh was crucified.

Those who will not deny themselves daily and take up their cross and crucify their flesh with the affections and lusts thereof will continue to find themselves fulfilling the affection and lust of their flesh and will find themselves constantly repenting; especially in a true apostolic church that preaches and teaches sound doctrine. Eventually, they will repent and line up, or they will grow tired and look for a church with a pastor who will preach/teach something that is more to their liking - the liking of the lusts and affections of their flesh that is.

They will begin to make excuses and to JUSTIFY their actions. Interesting how they compare tv to the internet, while the other group that has no problems not watching tv can use the internet with no problem and not need tv; however they can not say the same.

The interesting thing when the kingdom of Israel split was that when Jeroboam rebelled against the God-given authority of Reheboam, Jeroboam put away the Levites out of Israel. He disfellowshipped them. He put away, God's ordained priesthood and came up with his own way. But everyone whose heart sought after God, left Israel and went to Judah and Jerusalem. When Jeroboam realized that during the time of worship,
Israel might go back to Jerusalem, he created a substitute and told them it was too much for them to go to Jerusalem - it was TOO HARD for them.

Kinda reminds me of speaking evil of the way of truth. What a great Post. I like the use of scripture to help make the point. I've noticed our liberal minded posters rarely use scripture to make the argument for lower standards.

[CC1]

What a great Post. I like the use of scripture to help make the point. I've noticed our liberal minded posters rarely use scripture to make the argument for lower standards.

If you think this is the case then you obviously either don't actually read liberals posts or you have a problem with comprehension.

I don't mind you disagreeing vehomently with the libs positions but at least discuss those differences on the merits and stop the silly and erroneous charges that libs don't use scripture to back up their positions.

[Narrow Is The Way]

If you think this is the case then you obviously either don't actually read liberals posts or you have a problem with comprehension.

I don't mind you disagreeing vehomently with the libs positions but at least discuss those differences on the merits and stop the silly and erroneous charges that libs don't use scripture to back up their positions. I do read their posts and they rarely use scripture to make the argument for lower standards. Sorry, but it is what it is. By the way what happened to the "worst reasons for leaving a church" thread. Maybe me, but I think it disappeared.

[Barb]

Paul wrote of some who were enemies of the cross of Christ - he didn't say they were enemies of Christ, but enemies of the CROSS of Christ.

Jesus said, if any man will follow me, let him DENY HIMSELF and take up his cross daily and follow him.

Paul said, I die daily.

Paul understood that the flesh and the Spirit war against each other and that to give the Spirit the upper hand, one had to die daily and to get renewed in the Holy Ghost and to walk in the Spirit so that one would NOT fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Paul said, they that are Christ's, they that belong to him, true Christians, have crucified their flesh with the affections and lusts thereof. If you want to know a true christian, one that belongs to him, it is those who have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts thereof and walk in the Spirit.

You shall know them by their fruit, either they will manifest the fruit of the Spirit or the works of the flesh.

Now, the early Catholics were in the faith, but they departed from the faith - they gave heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. Why were they not able to overcome them? The scriptures give us a clue...

The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own LUSTS shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears and shall turn their ears away from the truth and shall be turned unto fables.

They started in the truth and were able to endure sound doctrine for a while, but eventually they could no longer endure sound doctrine. Why is that? They did not crucify their flesh with the affections and lusts thereof. Apparently they thought that they could live for God without crucifying their flesh. They thought they could live for God AND satisfy their flesh with the affections and lusts.

Now living that way in a true apostolic church will cause one to repent over and over again, but eventually, they will grow tired of that and so after their own LUSTS shall they depart from the faith and get their own teachers who will tickle their ears. They will turn their ears from the truth and shall be turned unto fables - fiction - the inventions of men.

Why do people WANT to watch TV? Why is it? Is it not to satisfy the lusts of the flesh and the lust of the eye? Why is it that some cannot resist the temptation to fulfill the lust of the flesh and eye and to watch tv while others have no problem with it? Is it because that some deny themselves and take up their cross daily and crucify their flesh with the affections and lusts thereof? What is significant about the cross? That is where Jesus' flesh was crucified.

Those who will not deny themselves daily and take up their cross and crucify their flesh with the affections and lusts thereof will continue to find themselves fulfilling the affection and lust of their flesh and will find themselves constantly repenting; especially in a true apostolic church that preaches and teaches sound doctrine. Eventually, they will repent and line up, or they will grow tired and look for a church with a pastor who will preach/teach something that is more to their liking - the liking of the lusts and affections of their flesh that is.

They will begin to make excuses and to JUSTIFY their actions. Interesting how they compare tv to the internet, while the other group that has no problems not watching tv can use the internet with no problem and not need tv; however they can not say the same.

The interesting thing when the kingdom of Israel split was that when Jeroboam rebelled against the God-given authority of Reheboam, Jeroboam put away the Levites out of Israel. He disfellowshipped them. He put away, God's ordained priesthood and came up with his own way. But everyone whose heart sought after God, left Israel and went to Judah and Jerusalem. When Jeroboam realized that during the time of worship,
Israel might go back to Jerusalem, he created a substitute and told them it was too much for them to go to Jerusalem - it was TOO HARD for them.

Kinda reminds me of speaking evil of the way of truth.

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in, CC1...*sigh*

Bro. TOP, while I respect your convictions, I deplore your tactics.

When you say that those who would watch television have departed from the faith, will not endure sound doctrine, have not taken up their cross and followed Christ, AND are satisfying the lusts of the flesh, I take GREAT offense to that.

Respectfully, who are YOU?! Do you have a heaven or hell to put anyone in?! Do you live in my home and know what I watch and don't watch?! Do you know me at all?!

Truth is, no you don't!!

The thing is this...it comes down to trust. Y'all trust people's Holy Ghost in EVERY area EXCEPT where it comes to television.

And for Bro. Narrow is the Way, you want Scripture?! I'm not liberal, but here is a Word for you...


Phil 2:12-13
...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
KJV


There is much on television that I would agree is not worth watching or should be watched...just as there are many places on the internet that is not worth our time and should not be viewed by anyone, especially Saints of the Most High.

But as we trust people to make right internet decisions, let us trust them to make right TV decisions.

Let me tell, verses 12-13 from above say it all...I must work out my OWN salvation and it is God who works in me...it's not about me.

Regardless of the sacrifices made and the individual level of consecration, it would never be about me and how great I am...it's all about Him!!

And as hell is a real place, and I certainly don't intend to go there, I am doing everything I can to keep ME from it.

Maybe we should all do that instead of the constant pointing of finger in judgment...

[Barb]

As far as SEPARATION is concerned, the WPF was willing to maintain their membership in both organizations; it was the UPC that decided to do something about that.

The interesting thing when the kingdom of Israel split was that when Jeroboam rebelled against the God-given authority of Reheboam, Jeroboam put away the Levites out of Israel. He disfellowshipped them. He put away, God's ordained priesthood and came up with his own. But everyone whose heart sought after God, left Israel and went to Judah and Jerusalem. When Jeroboam realized that during the time of worship, Israel might go back to Jerusalem, he created a substitute and told them it was too much for them to go to Jerusalem - it was TOO HARD for them.

Kinda reminds me of speaking evil of the way of truth.

Really?! You mean the leaders were willing to stay in both orgs?!

I don't think so...

If you mean they were willing to allow folks to align with both, what sense would that mean?!

They make it clear on their website, in sermons preached, and in literature that they wish to fellowship with those who think like they do...that would not be the UPCI, or they wouldn't have left in the first place.

[Tim Rutledge]

PtL Everybody.
Romans 14:13 , Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

1st Cor. 10:23, All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Romans 14:5.. Talks about being fully persuaded.

If my lifestyle (coversation), or anything I ever do or say, causes a weaker brother or sister to fail God. I'll stand in judgement... guilty.

Most all of us have come from different teachings. I'm amazed at the differences. This forum is not an ideal way to convey our thoughts. Things are lost in translation. I cannot type into words the passion I have for Truth. I just want to be real and right.

Anything I do, read, watch, or anywhere I travel, I want to know if Jesus is pleased with what I am putting before me.

For me, the UPCI is going backwards. Maybe for you its going forward. It is doing one or the other. And time will tell. I am very happy to be a part of the WPF. And that is what this thread is about. Have you been to a WPF Church lately? God bless.
TR

[Barb]

PtL Everybody.
Romans 14:13 , Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

1st Cor. 10:23, All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Romans 14:5.. Talks about being fully persuaded.

If my lifestyle (coversation), or anything I ever do or say, causes a weaker brother or sister to fail God. I'll stand in judgement... guilty.

Most all of us have come from different teachings. I'm amazed at the differences. This forum is not an ideal way to convey our thoughts. Things are lost in translation. I cannot type into words the passion I have for Truth. I just want to be real and right.

Anything I do, read, watch, or anywhere I travel, I want to know if Jesus is pleased with what I am putting before me.

For me, the UPCI is going backwards. Maybe for you its going forward. It is doing one or the other. And time will tell. I am very happy to be a part of the WPF. And that is what this thread is about. Have you been to a WPF Church lately? God bless.
TR
Bro. Tim, I appreciate your spirit in this discusssion. You are right that things are often misunderstood.

I have not been to a WPF church lately. One of the founders is a former pastor of mine...though I respect him highly, I feel the new org is a HUGE mistake.

But as you said, "time will tell."

I pray I am wrong in my feelings regarding this...

[tstew]

PtL Everybody.
Romans 14:13 , Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

1st Cor. 10:23, All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Romans 14:5.. Talks about being fully persuaded.

If my lifestyle (coversation), or anything I ever do or say, causes a weaker brother or sister to fail God. I'll stand in judgement... guilty.

Most all of us have come from different teachings. I'm amazed at the differences. This forum is not an ideal way to convey our thoughts. Things are lost in translation. I cannot type into words the passion I have for Truth. I just want to be real and right.

Anything I do, read, watch, or anywhere I travel, I want to know if Jesus is pleased with what I am putting before me.

For me, the UPCI is going backwards. Maybe for you its going forward. It is doing one or the other. And time will tell. I am very happy to be a part of the WPF. And that is what this thread is about. Have you been to a WPF Church lately? God bless.
TR

Bro. Tim,
There has been several times that I would read your post and be nodding in agreement and be touched by your sincerity...then just run into a land mine out of nowhere. I can't personally speak for all of the UPC, but my church is certainly not going backwards. The foreign fields that I am closely associated with are not going backwards. Every camp or conference that I, a family member, or my pastor has attended recently has been some of the best-attended and most powerful services in some time. Most of the reports from other camps and conferences that I've heard reflect the same.
On an unrelated note...how many WPF churches are there?

[Tim Rutledge]

Bro. Tim, I appreciate your spirit in this discusssion. You are right that things are often misunderstood.

I have not been to a WPF church lately. One of the founders is a former pastor of mine...though I respect him highly, I feel the new org is a HUGE mistake.

But as you said, "time will tell."

I pray I am wrong in my feelings regarding this...


One thing for sure Sis. All things are working together for the good.

[Tim Rutledge]

Bro. Tim,
There has been several times that I would read your post and be nodding in agreement and be touched by your sincerity...then just run into a land mine out of nowhere. I can't personally speak for all of the UPC, but my church is certainly not going backwards. The foreign fields that I am closely associated with are not going backwards. Every camp or conference that I, a family member, or my pastor has attended recently has been some of the best-attended and most powerful services in some time. Most of the reports from other camps and conferences that I've heard reflect the same.
On an unrelated note...how many WPF churches are there?

The UPCI Churches in my area are all going backward. (Maybe our definitions of "backwards" are different). And I don't really want to get into that.

And I have no idea how many WPF churches there are. 50 pastors are on the general concil. I wouldn't even want to guess. Tulsa would probably give the info. to you.

Sorry for land mines. Trust me, a lot of self discpline and wisdom is used in these posts. The slightest sense of blood (or a chink in your armour) and the spiritual sharks are all over it. I just trust that I am not confusing wisdom with compromise. God bless.
TR

[Barb]

The UPCI Churches in my area are all going backward. (Maybe our definitions of "backwards" are different). And I don't really want to get into that.

TR

I appreciate you not wishing to get into it, but I am from your state (north east).

All I can say is, I am surprised to hear you say this. As you said, your idea of backwards and mine may be different, nonetheless, I am surprised that you feel this way.

[Barb]

One thing for sure Sis. All things are working together for the good.

I just wish we could all work together...oh well...

[tstew]

I appreciate you not wishing to get into it, but I am from your state (north east).

All I can say is, I am surprised to hear you say this. As you said, your idea of backwards and mine may be different, nonetheless, I am surprised that you feel this way.

Barb, that is kind of what I was talking about when I said unexpected land mines in the posts. I will be reading a sincere post from a sincere person when suddenly I read something that seems to be the result of what's been hammered into them. It seems to be a recurring theme in the posts, that part of this whole WPF situation has been a consistent hammering that the UPCI is going down and heading backwards. And it seems to bleed through in most of the conversations. I personally am not experiencing that though.

[Sister Alvear]

I belong to neither have friends in both...I hate that things happened like they did however sometimes differences draw us closer to God...I am not the judge.

I would never belong to the UPC because I do not feel I would make them a good missionary however I think very highly of what the UPC has done in fields all over this world...and many that have left the UPC would not have been saved if it had not been for the UPC...so even in differences I think they should be kind and remember the good things...

I think it is far to early to judge the WPF...time will tell if they made the right move...time is a just judge...

I remember when the first formed AMF said hard things about the UPC but in time some went back in the UPC others faded off the picture and others became independent churches...the AMF is quite small today...

I do not think we can judge a body by sections we must get an over all veiw...

Has the UPC done wrong? Yes, in some cases I consider they did very wrong...Have I ever done wrong? Probably a million times...so....that makes us all humans, full of mistakes...and many times full of self!

[Barb]

I belong to neither have friends in both...I hate that things happened like they did however sometimes differences draw us closer to God...I am not the judge.

I would never belong to the UPC because I do not feel I would make them a good missionary however I think very highly of what the UPC has done in fields all over this world...and many that have left the UPC would not have been saved if it had not been for the UPC...so even in differences I think they should be kind and remember the good things...

I think it is far to early to judge the WPF...time will tell if they made the right move...time is a just judge...

I remember when the first formed AMF said hard things about the UPC but in time some went back in the UPC others faded off the picture and others became independent churches...the AMF is quite small today...

I do not think we can judge a body by sections we must get an over all veiw...

Has the UPC done wrong? Yes, in some cases I consider they did very wrong...Have I ever done wrong? Probably a million times...so....that makes us all humans, full of mistakes...and many times full of self!

Wisdom at work here...thank you, Mother A...

My feelings regarding the WPF are based on personal experience, and as I said, I pray I am wrong.

By the same token, I do not condone some things with the UPCI. You said it best, "so....that makes us all humans, full of mistakes...and many times full of self!"

[Sister Alvear]

Love you, Barb...

[Tim Rutledge]

I appreciate you not wishing to get into it, but I am from your state (north east).

All I can say is, I am surprised to hear you say this. As you said, your idea of backwards and mine may be different, nonetheless, I am surprised that you feel this way.

Your ok, with smoke machines, crazy strobe lights and less then desirable music?? (And much more). I understand trying to reach the youth. But we do not need the tactics of rock concerts in our sanctuary (house of prayer). As Sister Alvear said... time will tell. I'm just afraid to many people have already been desensitized. I am content to follow the leadership God has placed in my life. You probably know who my Pastor is.. and you know he is not a contentious man. Anyways... here I go again. I don't want to stir up a hornets nest. Long live Elder Haney!! Have you heard the song he wrote.. I'm a Pentecostal?

[Sister Alvear]

Tim are you kin to Ren Rutledge?

[Tim Rutledge]

Sister Alvear, your married to Jonathan Alvear's (Sulpher, LA) brother?

[Tim Rutledge]

Tim are you kin to Ren Rutledge?

No.. but I've gotten preaching cd's from his web site.

[Barb]

Your ok, with smoke machines, crazy strobe lights and less then desirable music?? (And much more). I understand trying to reach the youth. But we do not need the tactics of rock concerts in our sanctuary (house of prayer). As Sister Alvear said... time will tell. I'm just afraid to many people have already been desensitized. I am content to follow the leadership God has placed in my life. You probably know who my Pastor is.. and you know he is not a contentious man. Anyways... here I go again. I don't want to stir up a hornets nest. Long live Elder Haney!! Have you heard the song he wrote.. I'm a Pentecostal?Respectfully, this is how you consider the UPCI churches going backward?!

Bro. Tim, smoke machines and the rest were discussed on another thread I think (I didn't even open it), but IMO as long as it is not overdone, as in outlandish (and I don't know what I mean by that, other than we can go overboard in any area), and it IS a youth rally or camp meeting, no I don't have a problem with it.

Trust me, I am NOT desensitized, but I must remember that this is not 1965, just as my dad had to remember back then that it wasn't 1946 and expecting life to be like it was when he first got saved.

Some in our district have a problem with the lights and casual dress for rallies and camp...it's silly...

There are good, saved and sanctified young people in this state who worship God and love doing so.

Perhaps we should leave them to it...JMHO...

[Barb]

Love you, Barb...

Love you, too, Mother...

[theoldpaths]

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in, CC1...*sigh*

Bro. TOP, while I respect your convictions, I deplore your tactics.

When you say that those who would watch television have departed from the faith, will not endure sound doctrine, have not taken up their cross and followed Christ, AND are satisfying the lusts of the flesh, I take GREAT offense to that.

Respectfully, who are YOU?! Do you have a heaven or hell to put anyone in?! Do you live in my home and know what I watch and don't watch?! Do you know me at all?!

Truth is, no you don't!!

The thing is this...it comes down to trust. Y'all trust people's Holy Ghost in EVERY area EXCEPT where it comes to television.

And for Bro. Narrow is the Way, you want Scripture?! I'm not liberal, but here is a Word for you...


Phil 2:12-13
...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
KJV


There is much on television that I would agree is not worth watching or should be watched...just as there are many places on the internet that is not worth our time and should not be viewed by anyone, especially Saints of the Most High.

But as we trust people to make right internet decisions, let us trust them to make right TV decisions.

Let me tell, verses 12-13 from above say it all...I must work out my OWN salvation and it is God who works in me...it's not about me.

Regardless of the sacrifices made and the individual level of consecration, it would never be about me and how great I am...it's all about Him!!

And as hell is a real place, and I certainly don't intend to go there, I am doing everything I can to keep ME from it.

Maybe we should all do that instead of the constant pointing of finger in judgment...

I heard a preacher once say that when you throw a boot into a crowd, the one who pipes up is usually the one that got hit.

The early Catholics departed from the faith and AFTER THEIR OWN LUSTS got their own teachers who would tell them what they wanted to hear. Why does one WANT/DESIRE to watch tv? Is it not to fulfill the lust of their flesh and/or the lust of their eye? Mankind survived thousands of years without tv somehow. Whatever need one thinks that TV fulfills, did people have that same need 100 years ago? How did they fulfill that need without TV?

I wonder if working out your own salvation means that one should got on a ministers case anytime they step on anyone's toes?

Nathan confronted David and said, thou art the man. Should a man of God never get in anyone's one face and confront them, or should they just let everyone work out their own salvation?

One of the reasons why it was so important to Jesus and to Paul for the ministry to feed his flock was so that when anyone else came around teaching something different, they would recognize it. Also one of the reasons why the ministry has a responsibility to reprove, rebuke, and exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine was so that everyone would know what was expected of them so that if they got off track, it would not be tolerated or just let to happen.

Great peace have they that love thy law and nothing shall offend them. If you are blameless, then you have nothing to worry and get excited about.

When someone rebels against God given authority and against ordinances made in agreement by leaders in the church and confirmed by the Holy Ghost with tongues & interpretation, is it God working in them?

Was God working in the man about whom was written 1 Cor 5? Or what about Alexander and Hymanaeus?

Its amazing how people justify TV with the internet even though some can use the internet and not use TV at all - I wonder why that is?

How bad was TV when the UPC made the decision? Has TV gotten better or worse since then? Much worse.

I wonder if God is pleased with us staring at people of the opposite sex for long periods of time and observing people that do not live according to his holy word.

God's people are to cast down wicked imaginations, bringing every thought into captivity unto the obedience of Christ. The root word of imaginations is image. I wonder if God ever wrote to his people Israel in the OT about the images of the heathen? There are some good things in the pile of trash on TV, but then there are commercials advertising things that apostolics do not need to look at. If it doesn't affect you now, did it ever before in the past? And if so, how come no longer? If it doesn't affect you, do you still think God is pleased with you looking at things in commercials that go against his word? Just because you may see the same things out on the streets, does that make it right? You may not be able to control what you see on the street, but you can control what you see in your own home.

God bless.

[tstew]

I'm not sure what channels you all are watching because the types of channels I watch do not have the endless parade of lingerie, beer, and bikini ads I keep hearing about. One day when I am tremendously bored I may chronicle all the commercials that come on A&E, the History Channel, Discovery, National Geographic, CNN, Fox News, and some other such channels and see how they compare to the stuff on youtube and other internet sites.

[Pressing-On]

I'm not sure what channels you all are watching because the types of channels I watch do not have the endless parade of lingerie, beer, and bikini ads I keep hearing about. One day when I am tremendously bored I may chronicle all the commercials that come on A&E, the History Channel, Discovery, National Geographic, CNN, Fox News, and some other such channels and see how they compare to the stuff on youtube and other internet sites.
Making my list, checking it twice
Gonna find out who's naughty or nice

:sing

:bliss :bliss

[tstew]

Making my list, checking it twice
Gonna find out who's naughty or nice

:sing

:bliss :bliss

I just keep reading about these commercials that will make you backslide and I just don't see them on the channels I watch. Granted, I see many commercials that will make you crave for sinful food...

[Pressing-On]

I just keep reading about these commercials that will make you backslide and I just don't see them on the channels I watch. Granted, I see many commercials that will make you crave for sinful food...
I saw pretty suggestive stuff when we had Satellite. Most of them were on HGTV and since I could become a real cat if my husband looked, well......:toofunny

The Dr. Pepper commercials are some I'm thinking of which would also be on Fox News.

[Barb]

I heard a preacher once say that when you throw a boot into a crowd, the one who pipes up is usually the one that got hit.

The early Catholics departed from the faith and AFTER THEIR OWN LUSTS got their own teachers who would tell them what they wanted to hear. Why does one WANT/DESIRE to watch tv? Is it not to fulfill the lust of their flesh and/or the lust of their eye? Mankind survived thousands of years without tv somehow. Whatever need one thinks that TV fulfills, did people have that same need 100 years ago? How did they fulfill that need without TV?

I wonder if working out your own salvation means that one should got on a ministers case anytime they step on anyone's toes?

Nathan confronted David and said, thou art the man. Should a man of God never get in anyone's one face and confront them, or should they just let everyone work out their own salvation?

One of the reasons why it was so important to Jesus and to Paul for the ministry to feed his flock was so that when anyone else came around teaching something different, they would recognize it. Also one of the reasons why the ministry has a responsibility to reprove, rebuke, and exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine was so that everyone would know what was expected of them so that if they got off track, it would not be tolerated or just let to happen.

Great peace have they that love thy law and nothing shall offend them. If you are blameless, then you have nothing to worry and get excited about.

When someone rebels against God given authority and against ordinances made in agreement by leaders in the church and confirmed by the Holy Ghost with tongues & interpretation, is it God working in them?

Was God working in the man about whom was written 1 Cor 5? Or what about Alexander and Hymanaeus?

Its amazing how people justify TV with the internet even though some can use the internet and not use TV at all - I wonder why that is?

How bad was TV when the UPC made the decision? Has TV gotten better or worse since then? Much worse.

I wonder if God is pleased with us staring at people of the opposite sex for long periods of time and observing people that do not live according to his holy word.

God's people are to cast down wicked imaginations, bringing every thought into captivity unto the obedience of Christ. The root word of imaginations is image. I wonder if God ever wrote to his people Israel in the OT about the images of the heathen? There are some good things in the pile of trash on TV, but then there are commercials advertising things that apostolics do not need to look at. If it doesn't affect you now, did it ever before in the past? And if so, how come no longer? If it doesn't affect you, do you still think God is pleased with you looking at things in commercials that go against his word? Just because you may see the same things out on the streets, does that make it right? You may not be able to control what you see on the street, but you can control what you see in your own home.

God bless.

So let me see if I have this straight...because I was the one who responded to your post saying that if we watch TV we have departed from the faith and are fulfilling are own lusts, I am guilty of same?!

Typical and without merit here.

I am neither guilty, worried, or excited, but I'll tell you what I am...still offended...not at your convictions, but at your tactics.

So be it...it's like whistling in the graveyard...you aren't listening. You are so quick to judge those who don't think like you...amazing.

[tstew]

I saw pretty suggestive stuff when we had Satellite. Most of them were on HGTV and since I could become a real cat if my husband looked, well......:toofunny

The Dr. Pepper commercials are some I'm thinking of which would also be on Fox News.

I just resist the notion that TV is so uncontrollable but the internet is to be embraced...I guess the devil just let the latest technology slip through the loopholes.

[Barb]

I just resist the notion that TV is so uncontrollable but the internet is to be embraced...I guess the devil just let the latest technology slip through the loopholes.

I agree...oh well...

[theoldpaths]

Really?! You mean the leaders were willing to stay in both orgs?!

I don't think so...

If you mean they were willing to allow folks to align with both, what sense would that mean?!

They make it clear on their website, in sermons preached, and in literature that they wish to fellowship with those who think like they do...that would not be the UPCI, or they wouldn't have left in the first place.

For a lot of licensed UPC pastors, the result of resolution 4 hasn't changed a thing in their churches - they still don't have TV and don't want it; but we can't say the same for others. You see there are those in the UPC that don't have TV, those that do, and those that will use resolution 4 as an excuse to get TV - not very consistent.

In the UPC we have those who have always obeyed the leadership above them and those who were pastors over them before they went into the ministry themselves; they have not removed the ancient landmarks that their fathers have set and they have not built those things that they once destroyed.

Either enforce church discipline for not obeying the ordinances or throw out the ordinances - which one is it going to be? How long halt ye between 2 opinions? How long do you want to stradle the fence? Its either lying by renewing one`s license and agreeing to abide by the minimum standard or being hypocritical for coming up with ordinances that one is not going to enforce.

My pastor still fellowships with those in the UPC so its not about shunning or disfellowshipping the whole organization - can the same be said from the UPC point of view?

My pastor just doesn't want to send his bible-quizzing saints to a national competition where the kids want to talk about and emmulate and play things that are on national cablevision.

[tstew]

For a lot of licensed UPC pastors, the result of resolution 4 hasn't changed a thing in their churches - they still don't have TV and don't want it; but we can't say the same for others. You see there are those in the UPC that don't have TV, those that do, and those that will use resolution 4 as an excuse to get TV - not very consistent.

In the UPC we have those who have always obeyed the leadership above them and those who were pastors over them before they went into the ministry themselves; they have not removed the ancient landmarks that their fathers have set and they have not built those things that they once destroyed.

Either enforce church discipline for not obeying the ordinances or throw out the ordinances - which one is it going to be? How long halt ye between 2 opinions? How long do you want to stradle the fence? Its either lying by renewing one`s license and agreeing to abide by the minimum standard or being hypocritical for coming up with ordinances that one is not going to enforce.

My pastor still fellowships with those in the UPC so its not about shunning or disfellowshipping the whole organization - can the same be said from the UPC point of view?

My pastor just doesn't want to send his bible-quizzing saints to a national competition where the kids want to talk about and emmulate and play things that are on national cablevision.

Wasn't resolution 4 specifically about TV advertising. What is your problem with that?

[theoldpaths]

Concerning unity/disunity, i read the following awhile ago and found it interesting and could be an eye-opener for some..

http://apostoliccontender.blogspot.com/2007/11/apostolic-summit-tulsa-oh.html

So who broke the unity?

[Pressing-On]

I just resist the notion that TV is so uncontrollable but the internet is to be embraced...I guess the devil just let the latest technology slip through the loopholes.

I'm not preaching against TV. The Internet relationship stuff is way too big for that!

I'm just saying that for normal viewing you have to be more careful with what comes next on the television. Just my experience.

I have only two forums I post on and two that I view, e-mail, various news outlets and shopping. I just don't run across things that will be a visual hindrance. I don't get pop-ups, etc.

I have to choose to go certain places on the Internet. When we had satellite you just didn't know what commercial might come on next and they are usually about sex.

I remember a Yoplait commercial - see? I didn't forget that one. :toofunny

[tstew]

Concerning unity/disunity, i read the following awhile ago and found it interesting and could be an eye-opener for some..

http://apostoliccontender.blogspot.com/2007/11/apostolic-summit-tulsa-oh.html

So who broke the unity?

I went there and read it, but the whole time I couldn't drown out the deafening thought that I was reading this on a website on the World Wide Web!!!!!

[Sister Alvear]

Sister Alvear, your married to Jonathan Alvear's (Sulpher, LA) brother?


Jonathan is my nephew!

[Blaylock]

Concerning unity/disunity, i read the following awhile ago and found it interesting and could be an eye-opener for some..

http://apostoliccontender.blogspot.com/2007/11/apostolic-summit-tulsa-oh.html

So who broke the unity?

I also read the post.

Man discrepancies. The resolution does not allow for evangelism it allows for advertising.

It is all in the interpretation of the resolution.

Mostly its those that want out to be a big fish in the proverbial little pond.

So be it and let the bashing songs of the UPCI begin!!!!! :drama

[Sister Alvear]

Mature christians do not bash even if they do not agree...I had faded out of several things in my life because I did not agree...
Whoever bashes on either side is wrong...we can disagree but not try to kill and leave a bloody trail...

[Sam]

Mature christians do not bash even if they do not agree...I had faded out of several things in my life because I did not agree...
Whoever bashes on either side is wrong...we can disagree but not try to kill and leave a bloody trail...

Wise words, Sis. Alvear.
I personally need to improve in this area.

[theoldpaths]

Wasn't resolution 4 specifically about TV advertising. What is your problem with that?

Yes resolution 4 was just about advertising on TV; is resolution 4 the only thing we've been discussing in this thread? No.

[theoldpaths]

Mature christians do not bash even if they do not agree...I had faded out of several things in my life because I did not agree...
Whoever bashes on either side is wrong...we can disagree but not try to kill and leave a bloody trail...

Amen. We can discuss, state our position, back it up with scripture or apply scriptural principles, agree, disagree, etc. I see nothing wrong with that.

We can stick to facts that have happened or are written in the word of God and in the UPC manual.

Now opinions are just that opinions - if they cannot be backed up with facts/evidence, then they are just opinions.

One can guess at the motives of others, but without knowing, they are just guesses/opinions.

I don't think apostolics are about killing and leaving a bloody trail - if they are, then something just is not right; perhaps if they do, they are offended.

Concerning offenses, Jesus gave us what to do - if you bring your gift to the alter and you KNOW that someone has ought against you, then you are to leave your gift at the altar, and make things right with them first. Also, if your brother trespass against you, then the first step is to go to them ALONE and state your case - if he hears you, then you have gained your brother. The reason why you go to him is because he may not KNOW that he trespassed against you.

[tstew]

Yes resolution 4 was just about advertising on TV; is resolution 4 the only thing we've been discussing in this thread? No.

I was not asking only in the confines of this thread. I am curious because many people point to Res. 4 as the catalyst for their decision to leave the org.


And for the record, 90% of what we have been discussing has not been the original topic of the thread.

[Jekyll]

4 in written form was about advertising. However, symbolically, it was about a faction that proved it had the ability to push a resolution through if it was willing to push long enough. 4 years of pushing this through is outside of the spirit of the merger of dividing the bretheren. Res 4 is a foot in the door that, if left as is, will provide avenues of further decline and - you haven't seen anything yet - mass exodus.

[theoldpaths]

I was not asking only in the confines of this thread. I am curious because many people point to Res. 4 as the catalyst for their decision to leave the org.


And for the record, 90% of what we have been discussing has not been the original topic of the thread.

My Pastor's decision to step down from the general board and not to renew his license was not made soley on Resolution 4. He gave his reasons to the Board and many other board members stood up and said many good things about him and how they respected him, wished him all the best, and did not say anything in rebuttal to the things he mentioned.

For some it may have been the straw on the camel's back.

[Barb]

4 in written form was about advertising. However, symbolically, it was about a faction that proved it had the ability to push a resolution through if it was willing to push long enough. 4 years of pushing this through is outside of the spirit of the merger of dividing the bretheren. Res 4 is a foot in the door that, if left as is, will provide avenues of further decline and - you haven't seen anything yet - mass exodus.

Curious...why is Res 4 and the "push" any more devisive than what happened in '94?!

[ReddMann24]

what took place in 94' ......

[theoldpaths]

Is that when they made every licensed preacher re-commit to the things that they once agreed to in writing to commit to?

[Jekyll]

Curious...why is Res 4 and the "push" any more devisive than what happened in '94?!
What happened in 92 was an embrace to the AoF as they were written. Whoever thought that was devisive doesn't need to embrace what they don't believe.

This push took place over several years. If at first you don't succeed...well,

then again, who really cares anymore?

[Carpenter]

4 in written form was about advertising. However, symbolically, it was about a faction that proved it had the ability to push a resolution through if it was willing to push long enough. 4 years of pushing this through is outside of the spirit of the merger of dividing the bretheren. Res 4 is a foot in the door that, if left as is, will provide avenues of further decline and - you haven't seen anything yet - mass exodus.

Wow, you really think this is going to happen?

[Threads]

Came across this weblink. Interesting.

http://secure.smilebox.com/ecom/openTheBox?sendevent=4e4441314e7a4d324e773d3d0d0a&campaign=blog_playback_link&blogview=true

[RandyWayne]

Came across this weblink. Interesting.

http://secure.smilebox.com/ecom/openTheBox?sendevent=4e4441314e7a4d324e773d3d0d0a&campaign=blog_playback_link&blogview=true

Interesting group of photos.

The thing that sticks out to me in all the people is not "joy", but old-foggy stuffiness, tradition, and this ever present need to sit the preachers up on the stage.

[Jekyll]

Keep cryin.

[Michael Phelps]

Interesting group of photos.

The thing that sticks out to me in all the people is not "joy", but old-foggy stuffiness, tradition, and this ever present need to sit the preachers up on the stage.

I did see two people smiling in that group of photos, Myles Young, and the guy at the very end..........not sure who it is.

Everyone else looked pretty sour!

[Threads]

That last person is Gary Harding.

[RandyWayne]

I did see two people smiling in that group of photos, Myles Young, and the guy at the very end..........not sure who it is.

Everyone else looked pretty sour!

Honestly, half of the women look similar to the stereotypical middle aged ladies with the bee hive hair styles and horned rimmed glasses that Gary Larson draws in all of his Far Side comics.

It just reminds me again how small of a group this is and what a waste it was to devote so much forum time to them..... other than for entertainment value of course.

[Blaylock]

4 in written form was about advertising. However, symbolically, it was about a faction that proved it had the ability to push a resolution through if it was willing to push long enough. 4 years of pushing this through is outside of the spirit of the merger of dividing the bretheren. Res 4 is a foot in the door that, if left as is, will provide avenues of further decline and - you haven't seen anything yet - mass exodus.

Symbolically? Where you there when it was written? Where you there when it was presented with much prayer and fasting?

It wasnt about pushing an agenda.

FTR it was brought up twice tabled once.

Saying Res 4 is a foot in the door can be used both ways. Some can say it was res 4 that gave the excuse for those that wanted to start their own org a chance. For those that wanted to be a big fish in a little pond this gave them the chance. Your statement is one of the most UPCI bashing ignorant of the facts statements on Res 4 that I think that I have read to date. :bigbaby


IMO Those that want to leave .... leave. Dont let the door hit you in hinders sections. I will love ya ... I will fellowship you as long as you do not bash me and I will not bash you. I believe the scripture says something about do unto others as you want them to do unto you. :friend

[dizzyde]

I did see two people smiling in that group of photos, Myles Young, and the guy at the very end..........not sure who it is.

Everyone else looked pretty sour!

The guy at the end is the one singing the song, and he is not with that group.

[Michael Phelps]

The guy at the end is the one singing the song, and he is not with that group.

Well, that might explain the smile!