View Full Version : Will I.B. retract if 2 billion don't die soon???
Over the weekend while in Arkansas/Mississippi... I stayed in the room of a young teen who kindly gave up his room to this old man ...
On his night stand was a Sept/Oct. 2007 issue of Irvin Baxter's Endtime Prophecy magazine that screamed "2 Billion People will Die in 12 Months?"
I know that this claim has been discussed here before ... and I was partially amused at his 4 page attempt to prove that 1/3 of the world would be obliterated ... and that it would have to happen in the last year of the Bush Presidency ... and that we are in the midst of WWIII .... and that could be engaging in the Euphrates River War by now ...
What I want to know ... is if this doesn't happen ... will he retract his claims to his readership come this fall?
When did the Church allow speculative prophetic punditry to become a big business?
I glance through the magazine and it's all about selling books and dvds ... Why so much interest in this anyway?
How is this any different from prosperity preaching?
Is it too much to keep our preachers accountable for these types of claims?
StMark
06-27-2008, 09:34 AM
I don't think Baxter was saying it would happen
in the NEXT 12 months but rather in the course of a
12 month period ( when it does happen)
I don't think Baxter was saying it would happen
in the NEXT 12 months but rather in the course of a
12 month period ( when it does happen)
Of course this will be his out ... Mark ...
but anyone who reads that article ... sees how he cleverly weaves how today's headlines all seem to line up with a timeline he suggests to his readers .... with photos of our military, Real national IDs, and ties to the Bush White House
It's like reading the Enquirer, IMO.
Who knows? If Israel or the USA attack Iran, it may very well be the start of something that kills a couple billion people. I don't think it will happen that way, but what do I know?
StMark
06-27-2008, 09:47 AM
Of course this will be his out ... Mark ...
but anyone who reads that article ... sees how he cleverly weaves how today's headlines all seem to line up with a timeline he suggests to his readers .... with photos of our military, Real national IDs, and ties to the Bush White House
It's like reading the Enquirer, IMO.
Bro Baxter is a good man,Dan.
I don't think it's what he'll use for an out.
the first time I read it that's exactly how I
saw it for what it was - he didn't set a date or
a deadline
Bro Baxter is a good man,Dan.
I don't think it's what he'll use for an out.
the first time I read it that's exactly how I
saw it for what it was - he didn't set a date or
a deadline
Bro ... he uses montage to make his points ... including suggesting either directly or indirectly that today's headlines are tied to this happening very soon.
The article says we are in the midst of WWIII ... and suggests that if this does happen that he felt it would likely happen during Bush's last year.
StMark
06-27-2008, 09:52 AM
Bro ... he uses montage to make his points ... including suggesting either directly or indirectly that today's headlines are tied to this happening very soon.
The article says we are in the midst of WWIII ... and suggests that if this does happen that he felt it would likely happen during Bush's last year.
He "Felt" ...."likely happen"
Now, is that what you call as date setting or fact ????
Brother Baxter may very well be a good man ... but I find that even many futurists are becoming uncomfortable with this type of hodge-podging of today's headlines and trying to fit them into Scripture ...
It's speculation ... and maybe even fear-mongering in some minds ... passed off as sound doctrinal interpretation
Richard Heard used to do it ... all the time ...
Remember 88 reasons why He's coming in 1988???
This damages the futurist cause, IMO.
DividedThigh
06-27-2008, 09:56 AM
i do agree dan, i dont see why prople waste so much time with this, bt to each his own, dt
i do agree dan, i dont see why prople waste so much time with this, bt to each his own, dt
Well, at least it keeps them busy. Afterall, He did say to occupy til He comes, correct? :D
A friend of mine suggested this ... and I think it would be a great idea ...
Let's hold prosperity preachers, word of faith preachers and even these end-time preachers to truth in advertising laws ...
Perhaps a disclaimer saying something like...
Results not typical ....
but neither is faith.
Timmy
06-27-2008, 10:19 AM
Today's prophets have it easy. They can just make stuff up, and not even worry about whether it comes true. They're usually ambiguous enough that it either looks like it was a "hit", or there's a way to wiggle out. But sometimes they get a pass, even if it's specific and fails miserably. One famous guy said, on New Year's Eve 1989, that God would destroy the homosexual community (by fire!, bringing cheers from his fans) in the 1990s. He's still making millions.
And how about the visiting preacher that told me God said He would heal my brother? Well, I haven't bothered to track him down and tell him that one failed. Maybe I should, but why bother? Think he'd admit that he just made it up? Not likely. God probably just changed His mind, or healed my brother in Heaven.
BrotherEastman
06-27-2008, 10:20 AM
Brother Baxter may very well be a good man ... but I find that even many futurists are becoming uncomfortable with this type of hodge-podging of today's headlines and trying to fit them into Scripture ...
It's speculation ... and maybe even fear-mongering in some minds ... passed off as sound doctrinal interpretation
Richard Heard used to do it ... all the time ...
Remember 88 reasons why He's coming in 1988???
This damages the futurist cause, IMO.
I really believe he just speculates more than prophesies.
I really believe he just speculates more than prophesies.
Still baffles me how this has become a cottage industry ...:crazywalls
and results in huge speaking engagements, dvds, books, etc.
Still baffles me how this has become a cottage industry ...:crazywalls
We live in an entertainment driven society, Dan. Need I say more?
StMark
06-27-2008, 10:23 AM
Let's show a little respect for Bro Baxter
Let's show a little respect for Bro Baxter
I see this reaction as similar to some who don't want to discuss the writings of Ruth Reider simply because it upholds a doctrine that they hold dear ...
regardless of it's veracity or testing it against Scripture ... or even agreeing with it at all.
These are published claims he has made, Mark ...
and is expanding his ministry based on some of these claims.
BrotherEastman
06-27-2008, 10:30 AM
Still baffles me how this has become a cottage industry ...:crazywalls
and results in huge speaking engagements, dvds, books, etc.
I understand, I have lost more interest in his materials over the last five or six years now.
Let's show a little respect for Bro Baxter
Who's being disrespectful? People have said they think he's a good man. DUH?
We live in an entertainment driven society, Dan. Need I say more?
I see the ramifications of this as beyond entertainment .... this magazine sat in the room of an impressionable mind ...
also those who are looking to debunk the Gospel are given an opportunity to discredit the Church as a whole... they really love this type of stuff
BrotherEastman
06-27-2008, 10:32 AM
Let's show a little respect for Bro Baxter
Bro. Mark, is it okay to question a minister other than a Pentecostal one? I think Dan brings questions to the table not out of disrespect, but out of clarity.
I agree that it has cost Apostolics credibility with direct predictions that don't come to pass.
My own feeling is prophecy is to be used generally when it comes to exact predictions of timing and events.
God will authenticate his own prophetic word.
JMO
Encryptus
06-27-2008, 10:34 AM
A friend of mine suggested this ... and I think it would be a great idea ...
Let's hold prosperity preachers, word of faith preachers and even these end-time preachers to truth in advertising laws ...
Perhaps a disclaimer saying something like...
Results not typical ....
but neither is faith.
Sensationalism sells.
Be it a for-profit prophet, a purveyor of magic prosperity "seed", or a money for miracles faith healer.
I stand by the truth in advertising suggestion.
The church exists to propagate the gospel. The death of Christ, His conquest of sin, hell, and death. His ability to take the least on earth and transform them into sons and daughter of the Most High God. Don't need to be sensationalized.
StMark
06-27-2008, 10:35 AM
I see this reaction as similar to some who don't want to discuss the writings of Ruth Reider simply because it upholds a doctrine that they hold dear ...
regardless of it's veracity or testing it against Scripture ... or even agreeing with it at all.
These are published claims he has made, Mark ...
and is expanding his ministry based on some of these claims.
No, discuss the doctrine but I have a soft spot for older
ministers who have a good humble spirit. even if don't agree
with everything they teach I hate to see the way people hurt
their feelings
Brad Murphy
06-27-2008, 10:38 AM
Don't forget there are the people who are truly humble, and the people who write books about how humble they are...
This is hilarious! It's OK to start threads expressing shock and awe over an older preacher who wore an ear ring to his daughter's wedding, but God forbid anyone say anything against another older minister who flirts with being a false prophet with all his end time "predictions."
dizzyde
06-27-2008, 10:41 AM
Still baffles me how this has become a cottage industry ...:crazywalls
and results in huge speaking engagements, dvds, books, etc.
Me too.
This is hilarious! It's OK to start threads expressing shock and awe over an older preacher who wore an ear ring to his daughter's funeral, but God forbid anyone say anything against another older minister who flirts with being a false prophet with all his end time "predictions."
Ironic ... isn't it ???
Brad Murphy
06-27-2008, 10:45 AM
I went into a bookstore in the Philippines last night and saw Joel Osteen's book prominently displayed... Since I'm from Houston, I didn't realize he had such an international following.
I went into a bookstore in the Philippines last night and saw Joel Osteen's book prominently displayed... Since I'm from Houston, I didn't realize he had such an international following.
His books are hawked on book stands by illegal street vendors in downtown Brooklyn ...
I really believe he just speculates more than prophesies.
I must agree, I wouldn't read anything he writes unless I was looking for something fictional to read. If you could compile all he's said and missed the mark, you wouldn't believe him either. -Eyes on Jesus-
I must agree, I wouldn't read anything he writes unless I was looking for something fictional to read. If you could compile all he's said and missed the mark, you wouldn't believe him either. -Eyes on Jesus-
This would be an interesting case study ....
Here is a link to the article online .... http://www.endtime.com/pdf/archives/ETM-2007-09-Two-Billion.pdf
Notice the nuclear mushroom cloud .... and the author's note:
Author’s note: This article is
dedicated to explaining why I
believe two billion people will
die in the next 12 months.
Can I guarantee the time frame?
No. Could it be 24 to 36 months?
Possibly. But, in my opinion, the
most likely time for the fulfillment
of this ominous prophecy of the
annihilation of one-third
of the human race is the
next 12 months.Of course you can buy the CD here ...http://www.endtime.com/Product.aspx?ProdId=79421
and the DVD here: http://www.endtime.com/Product.aspx?ProdID=79418
Interestingly his website tagline states: REVEALING THE FUTURE THROUGH BIBLE PROPHECY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4uuJ2k2j40
DividedThigh
06-27-2008, 11:13 AM
only two things for sure in prophecy, he's coming and be ready
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRGot4vwwcs
2 BILLION DIE: PART 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ela1FEcmcM
2 BILLION DIE: PART 2
PART 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcuqRjwlM4w
PART 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_qAhHf4YA4
PART 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG9yQtR4j8k
PART 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXuwzs3TbqU
This next video suggests that the final 7 years of the tribulation may have started in May of 2008.
Which means we're a month into it????
This of course did not result in a peace treaty.
I love how this guy speaks ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpNGXCQvmgg&NR=1
ManOfWord
06-27-2008, 11:29 AM
I don't care if someone is a nice guy or not. False prophecy is serious. The "prophetic" movement in the USA is an industry which promotes its prophets and make their prophecies merchandise. I get called a compromiser because I believe HG filled trinitarians are saved but guys in the UPC who "prophesy" get a pass because of their affiliation. Sorry, that doesn't cut it with me. They are either of God or they are not. They either hear from God or they don't.
I don't read this stuff. I'm too busy working on my own walk to be flitting about time lines. I intend to be ready no matter when any of this stuff happens.
Anyone remember the phrase, "Bye, bye sinner friend!" as an alter call statement in the 80's when a certain prophecy preacher traveled the UPC with his presentation and told us that the ashes of the red heifer were all but found and the sacrificial system of the temple was just about to be instituted?
I'm tired of all this stuff. No one is accountable for "magic hair" or false prophecies as long as they are right on the godhead and Ac. 2:38. Sorry, my blinders came off a long time ago. I may be some dumb, but I ain't plumb dumb!!! :D
only two things for sure in prophecy, he's coming and be ready
Amen!
Anything else is strictly conjecture on our part!
Entimes Ministries latest video podcast ...
When does IB get his own TV show??? ... I know he was somewhat vocal in the last General Conference about TV advertising ....
I now see why some don't want to be on TV .... This would hinder to be associated with this ....more than anything, IMO.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvdd08vKt8w
You sure are doing a lot of advertising for this man, Dan, whether you realize it or not.
Praxeas
06-27-2008, 11:57 AM
Of course this will be his out ... Mark ...
but anyone who reads that article ... sees how he cleverly weaves how today's headlines all seem to line up with a timeline he suggests to his readers .... with photos of our military, Real national IDs, and ties to the Bush White House
It's like reading the Enquirer, IMO.
Dan, in the title of the article there is a question mark. So was he asserting this or examining it as a possibility?
Praxeas
06-27-2008, 11:59 AM
Entimes Ministries latest video podcast ...
When does IB get his own TV show??? ... I know he was somewhat vocal in the last General Conference about TV advertising ....
I now see why some don't want to be on TV .... This would hinder to be associated with this ....more than anything, IMO.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvdd08vKt8w
this is a pod cast from their studio, not meant to be TV
Dan, in the title of the article there is a question mark. So was he asserting this or examining it as a possibility?
See post 33 ... and his subsequent videos on the subject ... you decide.
How definitive is the neighborhood palm reader?
this is a pod cast from their studio, not meant to be TV
Obviously, Prax ... my remark was as to the content rather than the quality.
Praxeas
06-27-2008, 12:06 PM
Obviously, Prax ... my remark was as to the content rather than the quality.
Well i don't know. if hagee can do his thing and attract a lot of viewers maybe this is a good thing :bliss
Well i don't know. if hagee can do his thing and attract a lot of viewers maybe this is a good thing :bliss
So do you think that suggesting that 2 billion people will die this year and that 2008 is the beginning of the final seven years .... and it not coming to pass will be beneficial to the movement and advantageous to those who support TV ministry?
One thing I will say about IB is that he is very focused on winning the lost. I heard him speak once in Indianapolis and everything he said seemed geared towards the last part of his presentation when he made the invitation for the sinners to come join God's family.
One thing I will say about IB is that he is very focused on winning the lost. I heard him speak once in Indianapolis and everything he said seemed geared towards the last part of his presentation when he made the invitation for the sinners to come join God's family.
Was it an Acts 2:38 type of invitation? Or Baptist in tone?
Does presenting the truth matter prior to this type of invitation?
AmazingGrace
06-27-2008, 12:19 PM
Was it an Acts 2:38 type of invitation? Or Baptist in tone?
Does presenting the truth matter prior to this type of invitation?
His invitations are indeed an Acts 2:38 type....
Was it an Acts 2:38 type of invitation? Or Baptist in tone?
Does presenting the truth matter prior to this type of invitation?
Yes, Dan. It was an apostolic invitation. What would it matter to you anyhow? Aren't you the champion of the one-step cause around here?
Yes, Dan. It was an apostolic invitation. What would it matter to you anyhow? Aren't you the champion of the one-step cause around here?
Simply interested .... since some of the anti-tv types worry that THE MESSAGE would be watered down by Apostolic TV evangelists.
Kutless
06-27-2008, 12:24 PM
can anybody point to anything specific that he has got wrong?
can anybody point to anything specific that he has got wrong?
His approach is more along the lines of fitting current events into Bible prophecy. I don't know if that has changed, but it may have, based on what people are suggesting on this thread.
Pressing-On
06-27-2008, 12:31 PM
His approach is more along the lines of fitting current events into Bible prophecy. I don't know if that has changed, but it may have, based on what people are suggesting on this thread.
That is what he does. I got burned out on prophecy in the 80's. It seemed every special speaker was speculating every new device as the Mark of the Beast and "OH MY GOSH, A RED HEIFER IS BORN!"
:toofunny:toofunny
That is what he does. I got burned out on prophecy in the 80's. It seemed every special speaker was speculating every new device as the Mark of the Beast and "OH MY GOSH, A RED HEIFER IS BORN!"
:toofunny:toofunny
That's what was said of Roseanne Barr when she was born!:D
What? Why are you all looking at me like that???:reaction
dizzyde
06-27-2008, 01:41 PM
That's what was said of Roseanne Barr when she was born!:D
What? Why are you all looking at me like that???:reaction
:shocked: :tattle
RandyWayne
06-27-2008, 03:23 PM
I don't care if someone is a nice guy or not. False prophecy is serious. The "prophetic" movement in the USA is an industry which promotes its prophets and make their prophecies merchandise. I get called a compromiser because I believe HG filled trinitarians are saved but guys in the UPC who "prophesy" get a pass because of their affiliation. Sorry, that doesn't cut it with me. They are either of God or they are not. They either hear from God or they don't.
I don't read this stuff. I'm too busy working on my own walk to be flitting about time lines. I intend to be ready no matter when any of this stuff happens.
Anyone remember the phrase, "Bye, bye sinner friend!" as an alter call statement in the 80's when a certain prophecy preacher traveled the UPC with his presentation and told us that the ashes of the red heifer were all but found and the sacrificial system of the temple was just about to be instituted?
I'm tired of all this stuff. No one is accountable for "magic hair" or false prophecies as long as they are right on the godhead and Ac. 2:38. Sorry, my blinders came off a long time ago. I may be some dumb, but I ain't plumb dumb!!! :D
Would this have been Steve Timmons per chance? He is the only big end-times preacher who always seemed to be traveling through Wisconsin during the early and mid 80's. (He was also known for his Rock&Roll/record burning seminars.)
Pressing-On
06-27-2008, 03:46 PM
That's what was said of Roseanne Barr when she was born!:D
What? Why are you all looking at me like that???:reaction
:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny
Brother Price
06-27-2008, 04:48 PM
can anybody point to anything specific that he has got wrong?
Three symbols...
Y 2 K
Encryptus
06-27-2008, 05:14 PM
A friend of mine suggested this ... and I think it would be a great idea ...
Let's hold prosperity preachers, word of faith preachers and even these end-time preachers to truth in advertising laws ...
Perhaps a disclaimer saying something like...
Results not typical ....
but neither is faith.
Sensationalism sells.
Be it a for-profit prophet, a purveyor of magic prosperity "seed", or a money for miracles faith healer.
I stand by the truth in advertising suggestion.
The church exists to propagate the gospel. The death of Christ, His conquest of sin, hell, and death. His ability to take the least on earth and transform them into sons and daughter of the Most High God. Don't need to be sensationalized.
BUMP
jaxfam6
06-27-2008, 08:34 PM
Over the weekend while in Arkansas/Mississippi... I stayed in the room of a young teen who kindly gave up his room to this old man ...
On his night stand was a Sept/Oct. 2007 issue of Irvin Baxter's Endtime Prophecy magazine that screamed "2 Billion People will Die in 12 Months?"
I know that this claim has been discussed here before ... and I was partially amused at his 4 page attempt to prove that 1/3 of the world would be obliterated ... and that it would have to happen in the last year of the Bush Presidency ... and that we are in the midst of WWIII .... and that could be engaging in the Euphrates River War by now ...
What I want to know ... is if this doesn't happen ... will he retract his claims to his readership come this fall?
When did the Church allow speculative prophetic punditry to become a big business?
I glance through the magazine and it's all about selling books and dvds ... Why so much interest in this anyway?
How is this any different from prosperity preaching?
Is it too much to keep our preachers accountable for these types of claims?
I had noticed this in the Apostolic Men magazine as well so I stopped getting it. that was 5 years ago.
anapko
06-27-2008, 09:25 PM
[QUOTE=Daniel Alicea;511790]Over the weekend while in Arkansas/Mississippi... I stayed in the room of a young teen who kindly gave up his room to this old man ...
On his night stand was a Sept/Oct. 2007 issue of Irvin Baxter's Endtime Prophecy magazine that screamed "2 Billion People will Die in 12 Months?"
When did the Church allow speculative prophetic punditry to become a big business?
I glance through the magazine and it's all about selling books and dvds ... Why so much interest in this anyway?
[QUOTE]
Dan the man...many years ago I looked in my mail box and in it was a letter from a man claiming to have knowledge of the "true" Babylon, the mark of the beast, etc. His claims were indeed far fetched! The crux of the letter was his "pitch" for me, the end receiver, to send $25 to have this book! He said that I NEEDED this book! I told Lady Anapko that if I "needed" the book so bad, why didn't he just send it to me!
Loved having you and Cass is Mississippi!
TRFrance
06-28-2008, 04:12 AM
His writings are far too speculatative, and I believe he should be held accountable if he really blows it with his predictions.
Unfortunately it's hard to corner him for really "blowing it", because his predictions always seem to have a back-door he can use to wriggle out of.
Such as the headline "2 Billion People will Die in 12 Months?"
Notice he has the question mark there.
So if it doesn't happen anytime soon he can always say it was a question, not a statement/prediction.
Overall, I still think his ministry is useful in the sense that it brings awareness to endtime events, etc, but he could end up doing more harm than good if his predictions/speculations don't pan out over time.
Revelationist
06-28-2008, 06:22 AM
Of course this will be his out ... Mark ...
but anyone who reads that article ... sees how he cleverly weaves how today's headlines all seem to line up with a timeline he suggests to his readers .... with photos of our military, Real national IDs, and ties to the Bush White House
It's like reading the Enquirer, IMO.
"Like reading the Enquirer"... wow... very well said Sister. It keeps them coming back for more, and people excuse his error's because they don't understand it either. A prophet in the Old Testament would be stoned for not understanding and if their predictions didn't come to pass... we just send them more money to guess again.
Revelationist
06-28-2008, 06:25 AM
can anybody point to anything specific that he has got wrong?
He has never said specific, without a out that something was really going to happen. He get's paid big bucks to guess and leave a out when it always fails... Better yet, can anybody point to anything specific that he's got right?
JamDat
06-28-2008, 07:19 AM
I see the ramifications of this as beyond entertainment .... this magazine sat in the room of an impressionable mind ...
also those who are looking to debunk the Gospel are given an opportunity to discredit the Church as a whole... they really love this type of stuff
The ramifications for reading his book A Message to the President was that it eventually led me to receiving the Holy Ghost and being baptized in His glorious name.
Oh how Irvin destroyed my life because of my impressionable mind. :tic
I don't think Irvin has ever said he's a prophet, but rather he tries to see what the prophecy is and if it applies to us today. Nothing wrong with that imo.
Anyway like I do in all these threads that like to discredit Irvin, I'm going to publicly thank him.
Thank you Bro. Baxter for having the guts look into the scripture and write your opinion about them, because you've at the very least helped get this soul to be with the Lord throughout eternity.
AmazingGrace
06-28-2008, 08:06 AM
The ramifications for reading his book A Message to the President was that it eventually led me to receiving the Holy Ghost and being baptized in His glorious name.
Oh how Irvin destroyed my life because of my impressionable mind. :tic
I don't think Irvin has ever said he's a prophet, but rather he tries to see what the prophecy is and if it applies to us today. Nothing wrong with that imo.
Anyway like I do in all these threads that like to discredit Irvin, I'm going to publicly thank him.
Thank you Bro. Baxter for having the guts look into the scripture and write your opinion about them, because you've at the very least helped get this soul to be with the Lord throughout eternity.
I am right there with ya Bro. All I will say is ... he was the one who prayed my nephew and my best friend thru to the holy ghost. His grandsons are my sons best friends and without them my son wouldnt be here and yep its a long story but... I thank Bro Baxter for being who he is and where he is and he is a man with such a wonderful spirit. I agree totally Jam!
He has never said specific, without a out that something was really going to happen. He get's paid big bucks to guess and leave a out when it always fails... Better yet, can anybody point to anything specific that he's got right?
Apparently he gets his altar calls right, brother Moon ... and to some that's what counts ... the content of the message doesn't matter just the Acts 2:38 message that follows.
Does TRUTH MATTER?
BTW, I'm a dude.
Esther
06-28-2008, 10:52 AM
I see this reaction as similar to some who don't want to discuss the writings of Ruth Reider simply because it upholds a doctrine that they hold dear ...
regardless of it's veracity or testing it against Scripture ... or even agreeing with it at all.
These are published claims he has made, Mark ...
and is expanding his ministry based on some of these claims.
Dan it is obvisous you don't care for IB. But to compare his teaching to RR is a stretch IMO.
As to him stating we are in WWIII he quotes a politican as stating that. But I guess that is ok for them and not him???
I have never heard him state a date. I have heard him say it "appears" that IF such and such happens THEN within the next 12 months you MAY see this or that happen.
Why would he not talk about the news the news headlines are following scripture. Is that surprising to anyone who believes the scriptures?
I do not find his presentations as being fear mongering as you say, but informative.
Why folks thinks talking about the endtime is a fear issue is beyond me:girlytantrum
Esther
06-28-2008, 10:54 AM
He has never said specific, without a out that something was really going to happen. He get's paid big bucks to guess and leave a out when it always fails... Better yet, can anybody point to anything specific that he's got right?
Yep!
He said the Berlin wall would come down BEFORE it did.
Esther
06-28-2008, 10:58 AM
Apparently he gets his altar calls right, brother Moon ... and to some that's what counts ... the content of the message doesn't matter just the Acts 2:38 message that follows.
Does TRUTH MATTER?
BTW, I'm a dude.
Good grief Dan! Are you telling me you don't won't people saved?
Let me take your statement here and turn it like you want to do IB. Apparently you don't want folks saved unless it is done YOUR way!
You ask does truth matter as though IB isn't preaching truth. That statement from you is ridiculous! You are much more intelligent than that, or at least I thought you were!
IB preaches truth. However, you and I both know that men and women read the scriptures and come up with totally different interpretations as to what it really means. But to insinuate that IB is preaching a false doctrine is over the line. IMO:boxing
Found this interesting quote on the web:
Mr. Baxter' approach to prophetic interpretation makes it clear why the plain sense meaning rule is so important. That rule states: "If the plain sense makes sense, don't look for any other sense, or you will end up with nonsense." As with Mr. Baxter, you will end up with a very personal interpretation that no other prophecy teacher is willing to endorse. Exercise extreme caution with regard to Mr. Baxter and his unique interpretations.
Remember 1 Peter 1:20 - "No prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation."
Frank Stagg in his book, How to Understand the Bible, says, "God does not grant private disclosures that are withheld from other people."
1 Corinthians 14:29 says that when a prophet speaks, his words are to be evaluated by others, for "the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets" (1 Corinthians 14:32).
This essay has been written in the spirit of that admonition. It is good that Mr. Baxter is emphasizing the Lord's soon return, but at the same time use great caution regarding his very personal interpretations of Bible prophecy.
http://www.raptureready.com/who/Irvin_Baxter.html
Esther
06-28-2008, 11:03 AM
Found this interesting quote on the web:
Mr. Baxter' approach to prophetic interpretation makes it clear why the plain sense meaning rule is so important. That rule states: "If the plain sense makes sense, don't look for any other sense, or you will end up with nonsense." As with Mr. Baxter, you will end up with a very personal interpretation that no other prophecy teacher is willing to endorse. Exercise extreme caution with regard to Mr. Baxter and his unique interpretations.
Remember 1 Peter 1:20 - "No prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation."
Frank Stagg in his book, How to Understand the Bible, says, "God does not grant private disclosures that are withheld from other people."
1 Corinthians 14:29 says that when a prophet speaks, his words are to be evaluated by others, for "the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets" (1 Corinthians 14:32).
This essay has been written in the spirit of that admonition. It is good that Mr. Baxter is emphasizing the Lord's soon return, but at the same time use great caution regarding his very personal interpretations of Bible prophecy.
http://www.raptureready.com/who/Irvin_Baxter.html
Dan you can search for articles to support IB as easy as to tear him down, But you obvisously wish to tear down this man's ministry.
And let me tell you and others, why this makes me so MAD!
YOU are playing into the hands of the enemy. You SHOOT your OWN soldiers!
What enemy can do any more harm that you do? Tear down the minstry of men trying to win souls. Oh yes give your self a hand, YOUNG man!
Good grief Dan! Are you telling me you don't won't people saved?
Let me take your statement here and turn it like you want to do IB. Apparently you don't want folks saved unless it is done YOUR way!
You ask does truth matter as though IB isn't preaching truth. That statement from you is ridiculous! You are much more intelligent than that, or at least I thought you were!
IB preaches truth. However, you and I both know that men and women read the scriptures and come up with totally different interpretations as to what it really means. But to insinuate that IB is preaching a false doctrine is over the line. IMO:boxing
Not once have I said you must do it my way ... but there is a parallel between those who support horoscopic bible doctrine and the magic hair doctrine in the name of not supporting the specifics but the general principle.
Ex:
Many of RR's sycophants don't believe in the angelic protection aspect of her doctrine but because she is for uncut hair they will even buy and sell her books.
Many squirm when IB makes outlandish predictions based on faulty doctrine but because he's a futurist and is talking about endtimes they stand by him ...
Would we do the same if a preacher claimed to be the gift of discernment is a salvific necessary sign for salvation but because they still preached Acts 2:38 it's okay ...
Why is it some in your circles REFUSE to fellowship divine fleshers anymore ... they preach THE MESSAGE?
Of course ... truth matters ... some of us just want to pick and choose.
Juanita Bynum preaches the Gospel yet she ain't got the the TRUTH nor is she one of our own soldiers ... is she, Esther?
Esther do you believe he should make a retraction of this prediction of it doesn't pan out or refund the money he's made on the CDs and DVDs sold on this premise? Why or why not?
Esther
06-28-2008, 11:21 AM
Not once have I said you must do it my way ... but there is a parallel between those who support horoscopic bible doctrine and the magic hair doctrine in the name of not supporting the specifics but the general principle.
Ex:
Many of RR's sycophants don't believe in the angelic protection aspect of her doctrine but because she is for uncut hair they will even buy and sell her books.
Many squirm when IB makes outlandish predictions but because he's a futurist and is talking about endtimes they stand by him ...
Would we do the same if a preacher claimed to be the gift of discernment is a salvific necessary sign for salvation but because they still preached Acts 2:38 it's okay ...
Why is it some in your circles to fellowship divine fleshers anymore ... they preach THE MESSAGE?
Of course ... truth matters ... some of us just want to pick and choose.
Juanita Bynum preaches the Gospel yet she ain't got the the TRUTH.
I'm sorry Dan you are using way off examples.
I am talking about you wanting to kill one of our own who is trying to win the lost!
But you take exception to it because it is not what YOU would do!
I have most of his magazines. I have not read the last several due to time restraints. But tell me the magazine the article and page number of something he said WOULD happen, and not COULD happen and show me where he was wrong!
IB is a man and is giving HIS interpretations as he understands it. He has studied prophecy for over 40 years and has a greater understanding than anyone else I know. Yet, he is a man and can make mistakes, just as you can.
I think folks that are tearing down men's and women's ministries of their own organization could be a pawn of satan. I'm not talking about someone that has fallen into sin. I'm talking about folks that are working for the kingdom.
Esther
06-28-2008, 11:22 AM
Esther do you believe he should make a retraction of this prediction of it doesn't pan out or refund the money he's made on the CDs and DVDs sold on this premise? Why or why not?
What date did he give?
Esther
06-28-2008, 11:26 AM
Give me an example of what you refer to as "but there is a parallel between those who support horoscopic bible doctrine".
What date did he give?
I'll take that as a no ... since no specific time was given but 4 pages written to prove his prediction that the bible shows this will happen within this calendar year.
This hurts the futurist position, IMO, Esther.
Is it too much to ask???
Revelationist
06-28-2008, 11:30 AM
Thank you Bro. Baxter for having the guts look into the scripture and write your opinion about them, because you've at the very least helped get this soul to be with the Lord throughout eternity.
Even though he is consitently wrong.... : ) Wow...
Esther
06-28-2008, 11:31 AM
I'll take that as a no ... since no specific time was given but 4 pages written to prove his prediction that the bible shows this will happen within this calendar year.
This hurts the futurist position, IMO, Esther.
Is it too much to ask???
Is it too much to ask that you show where he stated a date? No I don't think so. That is what you were asking about wasn't it? That he gave a date that didn't come to pass so he should give refunds?
But even IF he had given dates, do I think he should give refunds? When a pastor prays for you to be healed and you aren't should he give your tithes back? IF he teaches prayer heals?
Revelationist
06-28-2008, 11:31 AM
, and not COULD happen and show me where he was wrong!
Let's make this easy and show us where he was right...
Esther
06-28-2008, 11:32 AM
Even though he is consitently wrong.... : ) Wow...
Where has he been consistently wrong?
Give me an example of what you refer to as "but there is a parallel between those who support horoscopic bible doctrine".
The basis and success of horoscopes is that they never commit to sure-fire specifics but rather cryptic yet positive sounding generalities that can apply to many situations ....
In a similar fashion .... IB never commits to his predictions but makes them nonetheless ... making sure to lace it w/ non-committal language but still make it believable by weaving it w/ today's headlines, personal hunches and his interpretation of truth ....
of course ... you are encouraged to get the latest revelations of the future by purchasing his materials which btw have attacked Oneness preterists and others with divergent eschatological views.
Revelationist
06-28-2008, 11:34 AM
Apparently he gets his altar calls right, brother Moon ... and to some that's what counts ... the content of the message doesn't matter just the Acts 2:38 message that follows.
Does TRUTH MATTER?
BTW, I'm a dude.
Sorry about that, just learned to read, and I've only got the pictures down right now... : )
Have you ever seen his Acts 2:38 message in his magizine though? Has he got it down there?
Esther
06-28-2008, 11:36 AM
Let's make this easy and show us where he was right...
I showed you but you ignored that post.
Sorry about that, just learned to read, and I've only got the pictures down right now... : )
Have you ever seen his Acts 2:38 message in his magizine though? Has he got it down there?
No ... He seems to me to be appealing to a mainstream crowd in his website and magazine ... perhaps not to offend anyone with salvific truth?
Esther
06-28-2008, 11:39 AM
The basis and success of horoscopes is that they never commit to sure-fire specifics but rather cryptic yet positive sounding generalities that can apply to many situations ....
In a similar fashion .... IB never commits to his predictions but makes them nonetheless ... making sure to lace it w/ non-committal language but still make it believable by weaving it w/ today's headlines and his interpretation of truth ....
of course ... you are encouraged to get the latest revelations of the future by purchasing his materials which btw have attacked Oneness preterists and others with divergent eschatological views.
Oh I see the problem now. You must be a preterist!
I see you have placed him in a no win situation.
First you want him to give you specifics that he doesn't know, unless God shows him, as the WORD says no man willl no the day or the hour, but they shall know the SEASON.
Second, if he gives that date and it doesn't happen then you want a refund.
So you have placed him in a no win situation.
But I have never heard him ever attack a person, only the teachings, which is NOT the same option you are giving him.
Oh I see the problem now. You must be a preterist!
I see you have placed him in a no win situation.
First you want him to give you specifics that he doesn't know, unless God shows him, as the WORD says no man willl no the day or the hour, but they shall know the SEASON.
Second, if he gives that date and it doesn't happen then you want a refund.
So you have placed him in a no win situation.
But I have never heard him ever attack a person, only the teachings, which is NOT the same option you are giving him.
No ... m'am ... I have stayed clear of the eschatological wars and have stated time after time ... that I am a preparedist.
Be prepared for anything.
Second... obviously you have no problem w/ selling sensationalism.
Esther
06-28-2008, 11:42 AM
No ... He seems to me to be appealing to a mainstream crowd in his website and magazine ... perhaps not to offend anyone with salvific truth?
Since you know him so well, seems you would know he also gives FREE his teaching on "Is Tongues Devilish or of God" (title may not be exact) And I believe he also has one on the Holy Ghost.
Esther
06-28-2008, 11:43 AM
No ... m'am ... I have stayed clear of the eschatological wars and have stated time after time ... that I am a preparedist.
Be prepared for anything.
Second... obviously you have no problem w/ selling sensationalism.
I don't see it as sensationalism. I see it as this is what he BELIEVES will happen. Big difference IMO.
But I think we will have to agree to disagree about IB.
Esther
06-28-2008, 11:44 AM
No ... m'am ... I have stayed clear of the eschatological wars and have stated time after time ... that I am a preparedist.
Be prepared for anything.
Second... obviously you have no problem w/ selling sensationalism.
I believe he and most folks agree to being prepared for anything. I think that is the point, is it not?
Since you know him so well, seems you would know he also gives FREE his teaching on "Is Tongues Devilish or of God" (title may not be exact) And I believe he also has one on the Holy Ghost.
One or two free teachings ... in the archives ???
I read the magazine edition that predicted that 2 billion people would die in the next 12 months ...
Now ... I mean this in all seriousness and gravity ...
If I honestly thought 2 billion people were going to die ... in the next 12 months ... and I knew that many of my subscribers were mainly churched but did not have the necessary requisites to be saved from this horrible reality ... I would have spent the many remaining pages of said edition on teaching on the 3 steps to be saved .... with DESPERATION and no concerns about costs!!!
rather than selling more promotional materials.
Esther
06-28-2008, 11:52 AM
One or two free teachings ... in the archives ???
I read the magazine edition that predicted that 2 billion people would die ...
Now ... I mean this in all seriousness and gravity ...
If I honestly thought 2 billion people were going to die ... in the next 12 months ... and I knew that many of my subscribers were mainly churched but did not have the necessary requisites to be saved from this horrible reality ... I would have spent the many remaining pages of said edition on teaching on the 3 steps to be saved .... with DESPERATION and no concerns about costs!!!
rather than selling more promotional materials.
I'm not going to argue that point with you because I agree with you!
Revelationist
06-28-2008, 12:09 PM
I showed you but you ignored that post.
Was it in his magizine?
Nahum
06-28-2008, 12:37 PM
Baxter is a great guy, but this sensationalism needs to stop.
His Endtime magazine is an embarrassment. It's a Pentecostal National Enquirer.
Since the turn of the century, we have seen many "prophecy" gurus go off the deep end.
Some to preterism. Others to wild predictions of "could this be's?"
Could this be the second seal?
Could this be the fifteenth horse?
Could this be THE peace treaty?
Pardon me, but I think we will ALL realize it when these events happen.
This is what happens when we put all of our eggs in one basket.
While it is true that over one third of Holy Writ is prophetic in nature, prophecy is not the main focus of the Word.
That focus is still, after all of these years, redemption.
Nothing more.
Nothing less.
Why is that not enough?
And why does Baxter never lead folks to Acts 2:38 on his radio broadcast?
Tell us what you really think. PP ...
Encryptus
06-28-2008, 01:12 PM
While I would probably rephrase a couple comments, I have to wholeheartedly agree with the theme of PP's post.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnomALbXWNM
In the last 3 minutes of this closing of his message ... he makes reference of bringing THE ONLY MESSAGE THE WILL BRING ETERNAL LIFE ... yet not one reference to Acts 2:38 ... why not?
He believes this group in front of him is the end-time church .... this is not a message coming from his ministerial peers?
I'm starting to wonder if he is a 3 stepper ... perhaps light doctrine???... or believes in salvific standards.
Esther
06-28-2008, 02:21 PM
Was it in his magizine?
It was in his book.
Does everything have to be in his magazine?
Esther
06-28-2008, 02:26 PM
Baxter is a great guy, but this sensationalism needs to stop.
His Endtime magazine is an embarrassment. It's a Pentecostal National Enquirer.
Since the turn of the century, we have seen many "prophecy" gurus go off the deep end.
Some to preterism. Others to wild predictions of "could this be's?"
Could this be the second seal?
Could this be the fifteenth horse?
Could this be THE peace treaty?
Pardon me, but I think we will ALL realize it when these events happen.
This is what happens when we put all of our eggs in one basket.
While it is true that over one third of Holy Writ is prophetic in nature, prophecy is not the main focus of the Word.
That focus is still, after all of these years, redemption.
Nothing more.
Nothing less.
Why is that not enough?
And why does Baxter never lead folks to Acts 2:38 on his radio broadcast?
Pardon me, but not ALL folks are keeping up with what is going on. Others see but they don't connect.
And again, what is sensational about his message???
AmazingGrace
06-28-2008, 03:26 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnomALbXWNM
In the last 3 minutes of this closing of his message ... he makes reference of bringing THE ONLY MESSAGE THE WILL BRING ETERNAL LIFE ... yet not one reference to Acts 2:38 ... why not?
He believes this group in front of him is the end-time church .... this is not a message coming from his ministerial peers?
I'm starting to wonder if he is a 3 stepper ... perhaps light doctrine???... or believes in salvific standards.
I do know for a fact he is indeed a 3 stepper.
Sister Alvear
06-28-2008, 03:41 PM
I have read very few maybe 3 or 4 at most of his material...
I personally have my opinion of end times...but for us it is not a matter of fellowship...
Brother Price
06-28-2008, 04:43 PM
In all honesty, I could now care less about propecy. I have quit trying to have a view, and focu more on the Gospel message. It is worthless trying t set a standard n what is right in prophecy. I thinkthe best bet is simply this...
Be Ready - ism.
JMHO
I do know for a fact he is indeed a 3 stepper.
I don't see that in his website's statement of beliefs ...
http://www.endtime.com/WhatWeBelieve.aspx
------------------------------------------------------------------
God
There is one God who created all things. In order to save us, He became man. Jesus Christ was God in flesh, Emmanuel -- God with us (Matthew 1:23).
The Gospel
The gospel of the kingdom is the message that the church of Jesus Christ has been commissioned to teach. The gospel of the kingdom declares that the days of human government are numbered and that God will soon set up a kingdom that shall never pass away (Daniel 2:44). When the kingdom of God is established, Jesus will reign as King of kings and Lord of lords.
Salvation
The only salvation available to the human race was purchased by Jesus Christ at Calvary. The work of Calvary consists of His death, burial and resurrection. Since the work of Calvary consists of dying, being buried and raising again, Jesus called this plan being born again. He then declared that being born again was essential for entrance into the kingdom of God (John 3:1-5).
Resurrection
Those who have been born again and have lived a life submitted to the lordship of Jesus Christ will be resurrected immortal at the time of the Second Coming of Jesus and will rule and reign with Christ in His kingdom (Revelation 5:9-10).
Eternal Judgment
Those who reject the gospel of Jesus Christ will be resurrected to appear at the great white throne of judgment. Even as the saved receive eternal life, the lost will receive eternal damnation.
Scripture
The Bible, in its original manuscripts, is the inspired word of God, and it reveals the will of God to the human race. The Holy Scriptures are the final authority in matters of faith and truth.
AmazingGrace
06-28-2008, 05:27 PM
I am just stating what I know from being personal friends with him,. going to church with him, and speaking to him about this. and hearing him preach pretty often... I do not read his lit. so I dont know what it says nor do I care to. Just stating what I have been told by him personally
I am just stating what I know from being personal friends with him,. going to church with him, and speaking to him about this. and hearing him preach pretty often... I do not read his lit. so I dont know what it says nor do I care to. Just stating what I have been told by him personally
He may very well believe Acts 2:38 like most of the Christian world does ... as much as PCIers did ... and do ....
It seems to me that there is mounting evidence that he does not see it as essential as many of his ministerial peers in the UPCI .... The video and the website statement of beliefs are offered as possible evidence of this ...
Perhaps he's light doctrine like AD URSHAN or GT HAYWOOD?
If he's strict 3 stepper it seems inconsistent that he focuses on end time prophecy and not see the urgency to be more vocal about 3 step salvation.
Doom and gloom and yet not offer the escape???
I don't see that in his website's statement of beliefs ...
http://www.endtime.com/WhatWeBelieve.aspx
------------------------------------------------------------------
God
There is one God who created all things. In order to save us, He became man. Jesus Christ was God in flesh, Emmanuel -- God with us (Matthew 1:23).
The Gospel
The gospel of the kingdom is the message that the church of Jesus Christ has been commissioned to teach. The gospel of the kingdom declares that the days of human government are numbered and that God will soon set up a kingdom that shall never pass away (Daniel 2:44). When the kingdom of God is established, Jesus will reign as King of kings and Lord of lords.
Salvation
The only salvation available to the human race was purchased by Jesus Christ at Calvary. The work of Calvary consists of His death, burial and resurrection. Since the work of Calvary consists of dying, being buried and raising again, Jesus called this plan being born again. He then declared that being born again was essential for entrance into the kingdom of God (John 3:1-5).
Resurrection
Those who have been born again and have lived a life submitted to the lordship of Jesus Christ will be resurrected immortal at the time of the Second Coming of Jesus and will rule and reign with Christ in His kingdom (Revelation 5:9-10).
Eternal Judgment
Those who reject the gospel of Jesus Christ will be resurrected to appear at the great white throne of judgment. Even as the saved receive eternal life, the lost will receive eternal damnation.
Scripture
The Bible, in its original manuscripts, is the inspired word of God, and it reveals the will of God to the human race. The Holy Scriptures are the final authority in matters of faith and truth.
Dan, I have heard IB on the radio telling people they had to be baptized in Jesus name. no waffeling about it. Holy Ghost too.
Dan, I have heard IB on the radio telling people they had to be baptized in Jesus name. no waffeling about it. Holy Ghost too.
As in essential to be born again ... or for obedience?
Perhaps it would be interesting to watch his Salvation DVD...
http://www.endtime.com/images/shop/catalog/79317.jpg
Name: Salvation Package (DVD)
Your Price: $50.00
Add to cart (http://www.endtime.com/Cart.aspx?x=cClZD6YLxb3%2bbCPRwqqVFWAnttgBToxlBOFA 80J8AXL34d9Em2CuMBVJc6y3BE4Z9fPd70D5vNE%3d)
Description:
Three newly filmed lessons by Irvin Baxter, including
Understanding the Godhead (2 hrs)
True Christianity vs. False Christianity (1 hr)
Tongues: Devilish or Divine? (1 hr)
All three lessons on DVD.
This is from his Tongues - Devilish or Divine Tract ...
http://www.endtime.com/pdf%5Carchives%5CTongues-Devilish-Or-Divine.pdf
This could have been written by the publishing house of the Assembly of God ...
Here is the conclusion of it ...
If you have never received the Holy Ghost evidenced by
speaking with other tongues as the spirit gives utterance, then you
do not have all that God has for you. You must have this experience
in order to live the Christian life that Jesus wants you to live. Jesus
said in Acts 1:8— “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy
Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in
Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part
of the earth.” The apostles had this power, the early church had this
power, and God wants you to have this power today. Without the
power of the Holy Ghost in us, we fulfill the scripture written by
Paul in II Timothy 3:5— “Having a form of godliness, but denying the
power thereof: from such turn away.”Nothing about this experience being necessary for regeneration ??? He seems to believe it's for empowerment ... at least in this document.
I google his Endtime website for the word "baptism" ...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&domains=endtime.com&sitesearch=endtime.com&q=baptism&btnG=Search&sitesearch=endtime.com
Just 2 results ...Not one article about the necessity of baptism for salvation ... much less Jesus name baptism ...
I googled the word "baptized" ...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&domains=endtime.com&sitesearch=endtime.com&q=baptized&btnG=Search&sitesearch=endtime.com
Just three results .... nothing about the efficacy of the name being said at baptism for salvation or remission.
StMark
06-28-2008, 06:17 PM
Poor Bro Baxter
Ya'll are drilling him like you're drilling for oil !
.
AmazingGrace
06-28-2008, 06:59 PM
Ok Dan,,, very simple... would you like me to get a copy of the dvd next time he preaches? Every time he preaches if its a specific service where he is informed in advance.. he invites all he can from the Endtime services and I think every single time he has explained this very thing in a 3 step view... sorry just the plain and simple of it. I go to church with the man... I see him every week if not more and he does step 3 times my friend!
Ok Dan,,, very simple... would you like me to get a copy of the dvd next time he preaches? Every time he preaches if its a specific service where he is informed in advance.. he invites all he can from the Endtime services and I think every single time he has explained this very thing in a 3 step view... sorry just the plain and simple of it. I go to church with the man... I see him every week if not more and he does step 3 times my friend!
I'm not saying he does or doesn't ... however a lack of urgency for these steps seem lacking in many of his presentations ... videos ... website ....etc available to millions worldwide.
If one was strict water and spirit ... and one did what he is involved in ... is it not consistent that it be the center of his message?
In one breath you say 2 billion people will most likely die this year yet don't offer the solution at every chance you get?
I have now just found one bible study at the Marble Falls UPCI website that attributes the following bible study to brother Baxter showing he believes that all three steps is how one is born again... yet in all of his writings available at his website it's not evident....
Here it is ....
http://www.marblefallsupc.com/How%20To%20Be%20Born%20Again.htm
One would think that if tongues was necessary to be regenerated that you'd include that in your tract available to the masses on your popular futurist apocalyptic website ... no????
Or is he watering things down to appear mainstream???? Or is this just an over sight on his part?
Why does he address the listeners at his interdenominational meeting as the end-time Church? Can one be part of the Church without being properly born again? Or was this only directed to the OPs in the crowd ... ? (There didn't seem to be many.)
Do the hundreds of churched who attend his meetings, that haven't obeyed Acts 2:38 as 3 steppers see it, know that the speaker does not think they are saved ... or properly born again? Do they leave these meetings knowing that their souls are in jeopardy of eternal damnation and that they are not rapture ready?
This was not evident in his videos put out by his ministry on YouTube ... but I'm sure they, the attendees, bought plenty of books and other promotional materials afterwards that do not either.
JamDat
06-28-2008, 07:41 PM
Even though he is consitently wrong.... : ) Wow...
Actually I don't read his stuff anymore so I couldn't tell ya. However what I thanked him for; wasn't wrong when I read it.
If he's consistently wrong now, which could happen when you say things like "this could mean to be" or "It looks like the timing of this will happen shortly." Then he has to answer to God. I'm willing to believe though by what God has shown him in His word that Bro. Baxter isn't to far off on a lot of things.
One thing is for sure though, he lays it all out on the line daily with his program.
Do you have any prophecy books or interpretations?
JamDat
06-28-2008, 07:44 PM
Even though he is consitently wrong.... : ) Wow...
Hey just to let you know I clicked on the link to your website and it asked me if I really wanted to go there because it's been listed as an attack site. You may want to look into this if you aren't aware of it.
Actually I don't read his stuff anymore so I couldn't tell ya. However what I thanked him for; wasn't wrong when I read it.
If he's consistently wrong now, which could happen when you say things like "this could mean to be" or "It looks like the timing of this will happen shortly." Then he has to answer to God. I'm willing to believe though by what God has shown him in His word that Bro. Baxter isn't to far off on a lot of things.
One thing is for sure though, he lays it all out on the line daily with his program.
Do you have any prophecy books or interpretations?
Brother Moon is a reknowned preterist and has plenty to say about eschatology ....
He even made it to Reckhart's Preterist Wall of Shame ....
http://jesus-messiah.com/html/wall-shame.html
Esther
06-28-2008, 08:51 PM
Dan, I have heard IB on the radio telling people they had to be baptized in Jesus name. no waffeling about it. Holy Ghost too.
So have I. But someone has an agenda to discredit IB.
Revelationist
06-28-2008, 09:52 PM
Actually I don't read his stuff anymore so I couldn't tell ya. However what I thanked him for; wasn't wrong when I read it.
If he's consistently wrong now, which could happen when you say things like "this could mean to be" or "It looks like the timing of this will happen shortly." Then he has to answer to God. I'm willing to believe though by what God has shown him in His word that Bro. Baxter isn't to far off on a lot of things.
One thing is for sure though, he lays it all out on the line daily with his program.
Do you have any prophecy books or interpretations?
No crystil balls...
Revelationist
06-28-2008, 09:54 PM
Brother Moon is a reknowned preterist and has plenty to say about eschatology ....
He even made it to Reckhart's Preterist Wall of Shame ....
http://jesus-messiah.com/html/wall-shame.html
No shame in that... : )
Revelationist
06-28-2008, 09:55 PM
Hey just to let you know I clicked on the link to your website and it asked me if I really wanted to go there because it's been listed as an attack site. You may want to look into this if you aren't aware of it.
Thanks...
Brother Moon ... why won't 2 billion people die this calendar year??
Dan, I have heard IB on the radio telling people they had to be baptized in Jesus name. no waffeling about it. Holy Ghost too.
IB came for a three night series of prophecy teaching at the Covenant Apostolic Church in Cincinnati several years ago. I only went one night. I personally do not agree with his teaching on a post-tribulation rapture. That local church had a weekly tv program and on one of their programs they presented some of IB's teaching that he had given. He came out very strongly against the trinity doctrine and for baptism in Jesus' name. I did not see the program but my wife did and told me about it.
Jermyn Davidson
06-29-2008, 03:25 AM
wasn't there a female with the same last name that wrote about her personal experiences in hell? if yes, is she any relation to this guy?
IB came for a three night series of prophecy teaching at the Covenant Apostolic Church in Cincinnati several years ago. I only went one night. I personally do not agree with his teaching on a post-tribulation rapture. That local church had a weekly tv program and on one of their programs they presented some of IB's teaching that he had given. He came out very strongly against the trinity doctrine and for baptism in Jesus' name. I did not see the program but my wife did and told me about it.
This was obviously at an Apostolic church ... yet it seems when dealing w/ the rest of mainstream Christianity via the web, prophetic conferences at a neutral venue, or radio.... the main message is Jesus Christ ... not Acts 2:38 ... (WHICH OF COURSE I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH BUT MANY HERE ,AND APPARENTLY I.B. TOO, DON'T THINK THAT'S THE FULL GOSPEL)
Here is an hour long broadcast on Christ's Imminent Return within the next 10 years and there are no desperate pleas to save the hundreds of churched listeners ... rather they are seen as partners and co-laborers in his ministry ... taking the message of Jesus Christ and directing them to Endtime ministries...
How does one talk about the rapture for over an hour and not give the solution?
This was Thursday's radio broadcast:
http://www.endtime.com/archive/ram/et06-26-08.ram
I know some of the moderates on this forum would rather defend this .... but surely there are some cons here that have a problem with this apparent BLATANT contradiction?????
I'm sorry but something has to give here ... no???
No offers on how to be born again but plenty on how to give again??
Even as a liberal I'd like to see someone who is speaking on the end of the world to discuss the "Good News".
I vowed years ago never to teach and preach without somehow mentioning His Sacrifice and Resurrection in each message.
Give me Billy Graham or Steve Epley ... at least I know I'll get a Gospel message and that God desires a response.
I want my Gospel raw w/ no pussyfooting.
Brother Price
06-29-2008, 07:45 AM
DA, we have placed so much focus on the 'correct interpretation and instruction of timing' concerning Bible prophecy that we have lost the focus of prophecy. Jesus said in Matthew 24:44-47, "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods."
I have lost all taste, desire, or even drive to study prophecy anymore. I do not know what I believe in this area, and really could care less. I desire only one thing, and that is, whether through means of rapture or grave, whatever happens, I want to be ready, and I want to see Heaven filled with souls led to Christ. All this other stuff is secondary
at best, and a distraction in surety from our primary goal.
DA, we have placed so much focus on the 'correct interpretation and instruction of timing' concerning Bible prophecy that we have lost the focus of prophecy. Jesus said in Matthew 24:44-47, "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods."
I have lost all taste, desire, or even drive to study prophecy anymore. I do not know what I believe in this area, and really could care less. I desire only one thing, and that is, whether through means of rapture or grave, whatever happens, I want to be ready, and I want to see Heaven filled with souls led to Christ. All this other stuff is secondary
at best, and a distraction in surety from our primary goal.
I have no desire to study prophecy in this kind of depth either ...
sue me.
Surely there is a difference between a prophet and a prophetic analyst.
Esther
06-29-2008, 01:33 PM
wasn't there a female with the same last name that wrote about her personal experiences in hell? if yes, is she any relation to this guy?
Yes, but I doubt they are related.
Esther
06-29-2008, 01:34 PM
This was obviously at an Apostolic church ... yet it seems when dealing w/ the rest of mainstream Christianity via the web, prophetic conferences at a neutral venue, or radio.... the main message is Jesus Christ ... not Acts 2:38 ... (WHICH OF COURSE I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH BUT MANY HERE ,AND APPARENTLY I.B. TOO, DON'T THINK THAT'S THE FULL GOSPEL)
Here is an hour long broadcast on Christ's Imminent Return within the next 10 years and there are no desperate pleas to save the hundreds of churched listeners ... rather they are seen as partners and co-laborers in his ministry ... taking the message of Jesus Christ and directing them to Endtime ministries...
How does one talk about the rapture for over an hour and not give the solution?
This was Thursday's radio broadcast:
http://www.endtime.com/archive/ram/et06-26-08.ram
I know some of the moderates on this forum would rather defend this .... but surely there are some cons here that have a problem with this apparent BLATANT contradiction?????
I'm sorry but something has to give here ... no???
No offers on how to be born again but plenty on how to give again??
Even as a liberal I'd like to see someone who is speaking on the end of the world to discuss the "Good News".
I vowed years ago never to teach and preach without somehow mentioning His Sacrifice and Resurrection in each message.
Give me Billy Graham or Steve Epley ... at least I know I'll get a Gospel message and that God desires a response.
I want my Gospel raw w/ no pussyfooting.
Ready....Aim.....FIRE...........wow......shot another soldier on our team!:tissue
Time is a ticking ....
IB ... will you admit you were WRONG?
Revelationist
12-05-2008, 09:01 PM
Time is a ticking ....
IB ... will you admit you were WRONG?
\
It's down to the last minutes isn't it... : )
Hoovie
12-05-2008, 09:13 PM
Time is a ticking ....
IB ... will you admit you were WRONG?
Admission is not needed because IB is always careful to poise the "prophecy" as a question. It has the implication of a "Prophetic Word" at first glance but the disclaimers are in there...
Truthseeker
12-05-2008, 09:26 PM
just switch to fulfilled prophecy and don't worry about it.
ManOfWord
12-05-2008, 09:35 PM
The problem is that when these "prophecy" guys start down this road of being on the precipice of the "end of the end" they must keep the interest of they won't be able to sell their "wares" or predictions. The truth of the matter is that I used to know an awful lot more about prophecy than I do today!!! :D
Jermyn Davidson
12-05-2008, 11:49 PM
The fat lady hasn't sung yet.
Of course, I really do want him to be wrong on this.
Aquila
12-06-2008, 08:30 AM
This is one reason why I embraced Partial Preterism. The prophesies are interpreted as being fulfilled, are verifiable historically, attest to Christ's omniscience, and demand that one be ready because Jesus could come tonight.
A_PoMo
12-06-2008, 09:09 AM
Over the weekend while in Arkansas/Mississippi... I stayed in the room of a young teen who kindly gave up his room to this old man ...
On his night stand was a Sept/Oct. 2007 issue of Irvin Baxter's Endtime Prophecy magazine that screamed "2 Billion People will Die in 12 Months?"
I know that this claim has been discussed here before ... and I was partially amused at his 4 page attempt to prove that 1/3 of the world would be obliterated ... and that it would have to happen in the last year of the Bush Presidency ... and that we are in the midst of WWIII .... and that could be engaging in the Euphrates River War by now ...
What I want to know ... is if this doesn't happen ... will he retract his claims to his readership come this fall?
When did the Church allow speculative prophetic punditry to become a big business?
I glance through the magazine and it's all about selling books and dvds ... Why so much interest in this anyway?
How is this any different from prosperity preaching?
Is it too much to keep our preachers accountable for these types of claims?
I've known Baxter all my life....he's a quack. This is what happens to people who don't spend enough time in reality and spend too much time the fantasy land of so-called apocalyptic future. To me this is the same sort of escapism as video games or Dungeons and Dragons. Once you go down that speculative path you end up in all sorts of strange places. I did my 'thesis' in Bible college on apocalyptic prophecy. I regard it as the biggest waste of my time in Bible college. I should have done it on the fruit of the Spirit or something useful like that.
Esther
12-06-2008, 09:21 AM
I've known Baxter all my life....he's a quack. This is what happens to people who don't spend enough time in reality and spend too much time the fantasy land of so-called apocalyptic future. To me this is the same sort of escapism as video games or Dungeons and Dragons. Once you go down that speculative path you end up in all sorts of strange places. I did my 'thesis' in Bible college on apocalyptic prophecy. I regard it as the biggest waste of my time in Bible college. I should have done it on the fruit of the Spirit or something useful like that.
How can you prove that?
P.S. I thought only doctors were quacks. :)
When it comes to the Prophetic realm & matters of the same, I only perk up my ears when I hear, "Thus saith the Lord!"
That carries serious weight & can be checked & verified whether it was God.
Anything else is pure speculation, best guess, an opinion.
I made a best guess prediction that our economy would fail next year.
God hasn't told me that.
I could be wrong, in fact, wish to be wrong.
If Irwin Baxter gets people motivated to question thier relationship with God in light of current events, is that a bad thing?
Revelationist
12-06-2008, 01:19 PM
[QUOTE=Ron;648847]When it comes to the Prophetic realm & matters of the same, I only perk up my ears when I hear, "Thus saith the Lord!"
QUOTE]
Does that have to be in old english to verify that it's really God?
A_PoMo
12-06-2008, 02:01 PM
DA's question is interesting. The NT says that if a prophet's predictions don't come true then don't believe them and give them a forum to air their views. But do we do that? Nope. They say whatever they heck they want to say, we all gasp and wring our hands and talk about how holy and 'deep' they are and never check to see if what they say is true. It's retarded! We make fun of weathermen, and they're right most of the time. If our stockbroker was as accurate as our prophets none of us would invest.
[QUOTE=Ron;648847]When it comes to the Prophetic realm & matters of the same, I only perk up my ears when I hear, "Thus saith the Lord!"
QUOTE]
Does that have to be in old English to verify that it's really God?
Not really, but you can tell then if it is God or not, if it doesn't come to pass-he missed it!
Everything else is opinion or conjecture.
A_PoMo
12-06-2008, 03:14 PM
[QUOTE=Revelationist;649110]
Not really, but you can tell then if it is God or not, if it doesn't come to pass-he missed it!
Everything else is opinion or conjecture.
Idk, I understand what you're saying but the whole "Thus saith the Lord" approach is pretty parochial. I have a good friend who is very prophetic and he never uses that phrase or anything like it. He'll usually say something to you in private (NEVER in front a crowd w/ a mic) like "It seems to me...", or "I think..." or "I feel pretty strongly that..."; and then he encourages you to pray about it and ask for more personal direction from God about the issue. And so far, in my experience, he's right more than 90% of the time.
[QUOTE=Ron;649180]
Idk, I understand what you're saying but the whole "Thus saith the Lord" approach is pretty parochial. I have a good friend who is very prophetic and he never uses that phrase or anything like it. He'll usually say something to you in private (NEVER in front a crowd w/ a mic) like "It seems to me...", or "I think..." or "I feel pretty strongly that..."; and then he encourages you to pray about it and ask for more personal direction from God about the issue. And so far, in my experience, he's right more than 90% of the time.
I have seen men say, "Thus saith the Lord" & it came to pass.:santathumb
A_PoMo
12-06-2008, 03:21 PM
[QUOTE=A_PoMo;649190]
I have seen men say, "Thus saith the Lord" & it came to pass.:santathumb
I agree. I'm just sayin' that the KJV phrase is rather parochial and there are other ways to be prophetic. Not arguin', just addin' to what you said.
Revelationist
12-06-2008, 03:21 PM
The Old Tesatment says if a man prophesies something and it doesn't come to pas, to stone him. No I know that we don't live in the Old Tesatment, but at what point do people stop buying his (false) litature and see what the Bible really says?
[QUOTE=Ron;649198]
I agree. I'm just sayin' that the KJV phrase is rather parochial and there are other ways to be prophetic. Not arguin', just addin' to what you said.
True.
The Old Tesatment says if a man prophesies something and it doesn't come to pas, to stone him. No I know that we don't live in the Old Tesatment, but at what point do people stop buying his (false) litature and see what the Bible really says?
PT Barnum said that, "there is a sucker born every minute!"
A_PoMo
12-06-2008, 03:27 PM
[QUOTE=A_PoMo;649205]
True.
Does that make me a prophet? Should I write a book, start a radio program, and make a DVD? :irule
[QUOTE=Ron;649207]
Does that make me a prophet? Should I write a book, start a radio program, and make a DVD? :irule
You didn't say, "Thus saith....":christmoose
A_PoMo
12-06-2008, 03:29 PM
[QUOTE=A_PoMo;649213]
You didn't say, "Thus saith....":christmoose
True. Oops...I guess that makes YOU a prophet too! Maybe we should start a Prophecy Conference or something. :)
[QUOTE=Ron;649214]
True. Oops...I guess that makes YOU a prophet too! Maybe we should start a Prophecy Conference or something. :)
I predict that no one will show up!:christmoose
A_PoMo
12-06-2008, 04:30 PM
[QUOTE=A_PoMo;649216]
I predict that no one will show up!:christmoose
I agree. And through the mouth of two or three witnesses let everything be established. I guess that makes us minor prophets. :christmoose
TheRationalist
12-06-2008, 04:35 PM
As long as North Americans are not among the two billion does anyone here really care anyway?
A_PoMo
12-06-2008, 04:37 PM
As long as North Americans are not among the two billion does anyone here really care anyway?
Especially if they have dark skin huh? :santathumb
TheRationalist
12-06-2008, 04:48 PM
Especially if they have dark skin huh? :santathumb
Not sure that matters as long as they speak English and carry credit cards.
Jason B
12-06-2008, 05:18 PM
I am right there with ya Bro. All I will say is ... he was the one who prayed my nephew and my best friend thru to the holy ghost. His grandsons are my sons best friends and without them my son wouldnt be here and yep its a long story but... I thank Bro Baxter for being who he is and where he is and he is a man with such a wonderful spirit. I agree totally Jam!
I still would be a non church attending, immoral living, "once saved always saved" baptist if not for Bro. Baxter's emphasis on the need to be truly born again.
Also, I have never heard him claim to be a prophet or make a prophecy, also bro. price said he was wrong on Y2k, but in fact he sid Y2K would be a dud.
Without a doubt, his worst fault is somewhat pinning himself to a certain "close" time period, always saying, I beleive the next 7 years could start this year." I think if he just taught the the prophecies without the predictions he would be much more highly regaurded. However, I do think when he says "i believe...", he is being honest, since there is always a possibility of it actually happening this year or not, even if it is not likely to happen in said year.
I am not "defending" his take on prophecy, but I am defending his character.
Also, about 2 years ago, I was able to go and eat with him and a couple of folks from our church. I was watching (him) and listening (to him) to see if he would seem to act differently now that he was not on the radio, or in church. He was very humble, and very kind. A true christian.
I think everyone is well within their rights to debate his understanding of bible prophecy as accurate or fanciful, but i think we are overstepping our lines to call him a false prophet, for he has never claimed to be a true prophet.
Hoovie
12-06-2008, 05:26 PM
I still would be a non church attending, immoral living, "once saved always saved" baptist if not for Bro. Baxter's emphasis on the need to be truly born again.
Also, I have never heard him claim to be a prophet or make a prophecy, also bro. price said he was wrong on Y2k, but in fact he sid Y2K would be a dud.
Without a doubt, his worst fault is somewhat pinning himself to a certain "close" time period, always saying, I beleive the next 7 years could start this year." I think if he just taught the the prophecies without the predictions he would be much more highly regaurded. However, I do think when he says "i believe...", he is being honest, since there is always a possibility of it actually happening this year or not, even if it is not likely to happen in said year.
I am not "defending" his take on prophecy, but I am defending his character.
Also, about 2 years ago, I was able to go and eat with him and a couple of folks from our church. I was watching (him) and listening (to him) to see if he would seem to act differently now that he was not on the radio, or in church. He was very humble, and very kind. A true christian.
I think everyone is well within their rights to debate his understanding of bible prophecy as accurate or fanciful, but i think we are overstepping our lines to call him a false prophet, for he has never claimed to be a true prophet.
I agree. I wish he would abandon the predictions etc.. But in no way do I question his faith of Christianity.
TK Burk
12-06-2008, 05:31 PM
He may very well believe Acts 2:38 like most of the Christian world does ... as much as PCIers did ... and do ....
It seems to me that there is mounting evidence that he does not see it as essential as many of his ministerial peers in the UPCI .... The video and the website statement of beliefs are offered as possible evidence of this ...
Perhaps he's light doctrine like AD URSHAN or GT HAYWOOD?
If he's strict 3 stepper it seems inconsistent that he focuses on end time prophecy and not see the urgency to be more vocal about 3 step salvation.
Doom and gloom and yet not offer the escape???
When Bro. Baxter was still in Richmond, Indiana, my wife was his personal secretary and music director for many years. She was also his first Endtime employee, and I was his second. While working at Endtime, I was the assistant editor and wrote many of the articles found in the early editions. In all the years I attended his church, I can tell you without reservation that Bro. Irvin Baxter, Jr., believed a person MUST repent, be baptized in Jesus' name, and be filled with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues to be saved.
Bro. Baxter was very staunch about Acts 2:38 salvation. He also wrote tracts saying as much. These include:What Do You Mean 'Born Again' (http://www.endtime.com/Product.aspx?ProdID=79069)?; Why so many Churches (http://www.endtime.com/Product.aspx?ProdID=79070)?; Tongues--Devilish or Divine (http://www.endtime.com/Product.aspx?ProdID=79071)? It looks like he offers each of these free at the links I included.
I agree that he does present what he believes pretty vanilla on his Endtime website. That was one of the conversations he and I had when I was still there. I felt the magazine should be more forward about the apostolic doctrines we held. He disagreed. His belief was the magazine should be more centered on prophecy. The problem was this left many key doctrines opened to all kinds of interpretation. Before I left we had Baptist ministers using Endtime magazine to start new churches. They could do this because the magazine contained no clear statement about the Acts 2:38 plan of salvation.
Though Bro. Baxter and I do not agree on prophecy, I have always respected him for his stance on biblical salvation. We know folks that are still connected to him though he has moved to Texas. To my knowledge, he has not changed his belief in the necessity of Acts 2:38. I can tell you this, if you'll email him at Endtime, he will tell you what he does believe.
Of course this will be his out ... Mark ...
but anyone who reads that article ... sees how he cleverly weaves how today's headlines all seem to line up with a timeline he suggests to his readers .... with photos of our military, Real national IDs, and ties to the Bush White House
It's like reading the Enquirer, IMO.
He's had people on the edge of hysterics for years.
Michael Phelps
12-06-2008, 06:11 PM
When Bro. Baxter was still in Richmond, Indiana, my wife was his personal secretary and music director for many years. She was also his first Endtime employee, and I was his second. While working at Endtime, I was the assistant editor and wrote many of the articles found in the early editions. In all the years I attended his church, I can tell you without reservation that Bro. Irvin Baxter, Jr., believed a person MUST repent, be baptized in Jesus' name, and be filled with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues to be saved.
Bro. Baxter was very staunch about Acts 2:38 salvation. He also wrote tracts saying as much. These include:What Do You Mean 'Born Again' (http://www.endtime.com/Product.aspx?ProdID=79069)?; Why so many Churches (http://www.endtime.com/Product.aspx?ProdID=79070)?; Tongues--Devilish or Divine (http://www.endtime.com/Product.aspx?ProdID=79071)? It looks like he offers each of these free at the links I included.
I agree that he does present what he believes pretty vanilla on his Endtime website. That was one of the conversations he and I had when I was still there. I felt the magazine should be more forward about the apostolic doctrines we held. He disagreed. His belief was the magazine should be more centered on prophecy. The problem was this left many key doctrines opened to all kinds of interpretation. Before I left we had Baptist ministers using Endtime magazine to start new churches. They could do this because the magazine contained no clear statement about the Acts 2:38 plan of salvation.
Though Bro. Baxter and I do not agree on prophecy, I have always respected him for his stance on biblical salvation. We know folks that are still connected to him though he has moved to Texas. To my knowledge, he has not changed his belief in the necessity of Acts 2:38. I can tell you this, if you'll email him at Endtime, he will tell you what he does believe.
TK, thank you for this post. It's always good to hear the real story from someone who truly knows it.
Too much supposition and innuendo floating around these days about what this preacher, or that preacher believes, and it's nice when someone with first hand experience can set the record straight.
Now, if we just had someone who could attest to what NW believes about the giants on the earth, lol!
Esther
12-06-2008, 07:04 PM
I still would be a non church attending, immoral living, "once saved always saved" baptist if not for Bro. Baxter's emphasis on the need to be truly born again.
Also, I have never heard him claim to be a prophet or make a prophecy, also bro. price said he was wrong on Y2k, but in fact he sid Y2K would be a dud.
Without a doubt, his worst fault is somewhat pinning himself to a certain "close" time period, always saying, I beleive the next 7 years could start this year." I think if he just taught the the prophecies without the predictions he would be much more highly regaurded. However, I do think when he says "i believe...", he is being honest, since there is always a possibility of it actually happening this year or not, even if it is not likely to happen in said year.
I am not "defending" his take on prophecy, but I am defending his character.
Also, about 2 years ago, I was able to go and eat with him and a couple of folks from our church. I was watching (him) and listening (to him) to see if he would seem to act differently now that he was not on the radio, or in church. He was very humble, and very kind. A true christian.
I think everyone is well within their rights to debate his understanding of bible prophecy as accurate or fanciful, but i think we are overstepping our lines to call him a false prophet, for he has never claimed to be a true prophet.
You are exactly right.
Esther
12-06-2008, 07:05 PM
He's had people on the edge of hysterics for years.
Never met anyone on the edge of hysterics because of Bro. Baxter's ministry???
TK Burk
12-06-2008, 07:12 PM
can anybody point to anything specific that he has got wrong?
While I was Assistant Editor at Endtime Ministries of Richmond, Indiana, I taught Bro. Baxter's view of prophecy including those about the beasts found in Daniel 7. As I began to study his teachings further, I found several glaring errors. Some of these are as follows:
The basis for the foundation upon which Endtime ministries is established is his teaching that each of the “beasts/animals” of Daniel 7 are easily recognized symbols of countries today. The Bear is Russia, the Eagle is the United States, the 10 horn kingdom is the European common market, and the Leopard is Germany.
Bro. Baxter used to think that the Nazi “Panzer” units were referring to “Panther” (Leopard) units of German. This, of course is not true. Many years ago a relative of Bro. Baxter’s asked a college professor about this. This man was consulted because he was considered an expert in symbolism. This professor stated to him that in the history of Germany there has never been a time when they used a leopard for their symbol. Never! As a matter of fact, on page 9 of Bro. Baxter’s book A Message for the President (AMFTP) he uses an article about the German Fourth Reich, and in it is found the symbol that Germany is known for—a two-headed eagle. In WW1 there was a poster showing German and US aircraft dog-fighting. Superimposed over these planes was a US Bald Eagle sinking its talons into a black two-headed eagle. This two headed eagle was then—and still is today – the known recognized symbol for Germany!
Bro. Baxter depends much on the Leopard for his teachings. He talks about the four heads of the leopard, and how Germany is now in their “Forth Reich.” The wound that would not heal (See Rev 13:3), he says refers to the leopard's (Germany’s) Berlin Wall. When this fell, he predicted that the world would enter into a New World Order. We all know that it did fall. Of course, everyone from President J.F. Kennedy to President Ronald Regan called for its demise. Endtime began at the time of the fall of the Berlin Wall. In fact, that occurrence was largely the catalyst for him launching his magazine. So you can see why having Germany as the leopard is so important to everything else he teaches. However, what must be kept in mind is that Bro. Baxter said these beasts are KNOWN SYMBOLS of nations today, and that NEVER in the history of Germany did they ever use a leopard for their national symbol. So in the end, Bro. Baxter’s own hermeneutic denies his own conclusion.
If you will notice, Bro. Baxter does not dwell very long on his leopard theory and goes through that area of his teaching rather quickly. He does this because he only has one newspaper article from February 20, 1975 (See page 11 of AMFTP). This article states that the chief battle tank for Germany is called a “Leopard Tank.” This sole article is all he offers to show where Germany is referred to as a Leopard—no other history, pictures, or anything. Of course if Endtime loses their “Leopard-Germany,” they also lose their teaching on the Berlin Wall and thereby a major reason why this ministry began.
Also, the Eagle and Uncle Sam cannot be correct as Endtime teaches either. Notice again the God-inspired wording for this: “The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it” (Daniel 7:4). For years Apostolics have hammered the fact that Matthew 28:19 says, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” They have always made a point that every major translation of the Bible all agrees that it says the singular NAME and not the plural NAMES. Let’s stay consistent here with Daniel 7:4 as well.
This scripture says “lion” (singular) and “wings” (plural). Notice it says, “IT was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to IT.” IT is a singular pronoun, not a plural. This shows that this referred not to the plural wings but to the singular lion. Well the US and Uncle Sam just flew away with one reading of the scripture for what it literally says. If a person wants to change this, that is their prerogative, but as me and my house, we will leave IT as it is written.
Bro. Baxter also claims that the “Eagle Wings” in Revelation 12:14 refer to a US air-lift. Moses wrote, “Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself” (Exodus 19:4). Does this also mean that the US air-lifted the children of Israel out of Egypt long ago? If so, how was this possible? All kidding aside, Exodus 19:4 actually is the first mention of God using “eagle wings” in the Bible. According to the interpretative law of first mention, we should go to this occurrence first to see the context in which God used “eagle wings” then to better understand how He used them later. When we do this we see that Revelation 12:14 could not be referring to a US air-lift.
Now let’s look at the 10 Horn Kingdom: Bro. Baxter wrote that this would be the European Common Market (See AMFTP pages 10-21). The problem is this union has far surpassed the original 12 members he said it would have, and is now scheduled to be around 20 plus members in the near future. If his teachings were divinely inspired then, why is there such a blaring error now? What will this beast become now that this is no longer an acceptable explanation? Has God changed His mind? I think not.
If the line of Endtime interpretation that says we are to interpret beasts found within biblical prophecy by scanning newspapers for modern day equivalents is carried to its fullness, would we be correct to assume that the Ram mentioned in Daniel 8 is also referring to the USA? Why would I ask this? Well, the Dodge Motor Company produces the Dodge Ram Truck, and since this company is from the USA, then this ram in Daniel must be referring to the USA. This may be right?! After all, if Endtime can use tanks for Germany, why can’t trucks be used for the USA? I am of course jesting. However, with the type of interpretation Endtime supports one can only wonder where such guesswork could ultimately lead.
In conclusion I would like to quote Bro. Baxter as found on page 2 of his book AMFTP: “When God picked symbols to represent nations, he did not pick them arbitrarily nor did he choose symbols which had no significance. Rather he chose symbols that would be meaningful to the people who lived at the time of the prophecy’s fulfillment.” He is right in this! History records how the understandings of these various beasts played out through biblical times up until the times of Jesus. Bro. Baxter is a good man, but his prophecy teachings are based on a faulty hermeneutic. His prophetic conclusions would not – could not – be found without the help of newspaper and magazine articles. Such sources are always found as the center of all of his predictions. Since when are we supposed to “rightly divide the word of tabloids?” My Bible says it is to be “the Word of God!” The Bible already gives clear indicators within itself who these beasts were. When these are read within their context it is incredible how easy it is to properly interpret Daniel’s vision and the remainder his related prophecies.
I have nothing personal against Bro. Baxter. I deeply respect him. What I have written above is only about what he teaches.
Esther
12-06-2008, 07:21 PM
While I was Assistant Editor at Endtime Ministries of Richmond, Indiana, I taught Bro. Baxter's view of prophecy including those about the beasts found in Daniel 7. As I began to study his teachings further, I found several glaring errors. Some of these are as follows:
The basis for the foundation upon which Endtime ministries is established is his teaching that each of the “beasts/animals” of Daniel 7 are easily recognized symbols of countries today. The Bear is Russia, the Eagle is the United States, the 10 horn kingdom is the European common market, and the Leopard is Germany.
Bro. Baxter used to think that the Nazi “Panzer” units were referring to “Panther” (Leopard) units of German. This, of course is not true. Many years ago a relative of Bro. Baxter’s asked a college professor about this. This man was consulted because he was considered an expert in symbolism. This professor stated to him that in the history of Germany there has never been a time when they used a leopard for their symbol. Never! As a matter of fact, on page 9 of Bro. Baxter’s book A Message for the President (AMFTP) he uses an article about the German Fourth Reich, and in it is found the symbol that Germany is known for—a two-headed eagle. In WW1 there was a poster showing German and US aircraft dog-fighting. Superimposed over these planes was a US Bald Eagle sinking its talons into a black two-headed eagle. This two headed eagle was then—and still is today – the known recognized symbol for Germany!
Bro. Baxter depends much on the Leopard for his teachings. He talks about the four heads of the leopard, and how Germany is now in their “Forth Reich.” The wound that would not heal (See Rev 13:3), he says refers to the leopard's (Germany’s) Berlin Wall. When this fell, he predicted that the world would enter into a New World Order. We all know that it did fall. Of course, everyone from President J.F. Kennedy to President Ronald Regan called for its demise. Endtime began at the time of the fall of the Berlin Wall. In fact, that occurrence was largely the catalyst for him launching his magazine. So you can see why having Germany as the leopard is so important to everything else he teaches. However, what must be kept in mind is that Bro. Baxter said these beasts are KNOWN SYMBOLS of nations today, and that NEVER in the history of Germany did they ever use a leopard for their national symbol. So in the end, Bro. Baxter’s own hermeneutic denies his own conclusion.
If you will notice, Bro. Baxter does not dwell very long on his leopard theory and goes through that area of his teaching rather quickly. He does this because he only has one newspaper article from February 20, 1975 (See page 11 of AMFTP). This article states that the chief battle tank for Germany is called a “Leopard Tank.” This sole article is all he offers to show where Germany is referred to as a Leopard—no other history, pictures, or anything. Of course if Endtime loses their “Leopard-Germany,” they also lose their teaching on the Berlin Wall and thereby a major reason why this ministry began.
Also, the Eagle and Uncle Sam cannot be correct as Endtime teaches either. Notice again the God-inspired wording for this: “The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it” (Daniel 7:4). For years Apostolics have hammered the fact that Matthew 28:19 says, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” They have always made a point that every major translation of the Bible all agrees that it says the singular NAME and not the plural NAMES. Let’s stay consistent here with Daniel 7:4 as well.
This scripture says “lion” (singular) and “wings” (plural). Notice it says, “IT was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to IT.” IT is a singular pronoun, not a plural. This shows that this referred not to the plural wings but to the singular lion. Well the US and Uncle Sam just flew away with one reading of the scripture for what it literally says. If a person wants to change this, that is their prerogative, but as me and my house, we will leave IT as it is written.
Bro. Baxter also claims that the “Eagle Wings” in Revelation 12:14 refer to a US air-lift. Moses wrote, “Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself” (Exodus 19:4). Does this also mean that the US air-lifted the children of Israel out of Egypt long ago? If so, how was this possible? All kidding aside, Exodus 19:4 actually is the first mention of God using “eagle wings” in the Bible. According to the interpretative law of first mention, we should go to this occurrence first to see the context in which God used “eagle wings” then to better understand how He used them later. When we do this we see that Revelation 12:14 could not be referring to a US air-lift.
Now let’s look at the 10 Horn Kingdom: Bro. Baxter wrote that this would be the European Common Market (See AMFTP pages 10-21). The problem is this union has far surpassed the original 12 members he said it would have, and is now scheduled to be around 20 plus members in the near future. If his teachings were divinely inspired then, why is there such a blaring error now? What will this beast become now that this is no longer an acceptable explanation? Has God changed His mind? I think not.
If the line of Endtime interpretation that says we are to interpret beasts found within biblical prophecy by scanning newspapers for modern day equivalents is carried to its fullness, would we be correct to assume that the Ram mentioned in Daniel 8 is also referring to the USA? Why would I ask this? Well, the Dodge Motor Company produces the Dodge Ram Truck, and since this company is from the USA, then this ram in Daniel must be referring to the USA. This may be right?! After all, if Endtime can use tanks for Germany, why can’t trucks be used for the USA? I am of course jesting. However, with the type of interpretation Endtime supports one can only wonder where such guesswork could ultimately lead.
In conclusion I would like to quote Bro. Baxter as found on page 2 of his book AMFTP: “When God picked symbols to represent nations, he did not pick them arbitrarily nor did he choose symbols which had no significance. Rather he chose symbols that would be meaningful to the people who lived at the time of the prophecy’s fulfillment.” He is right in this! History records how the understandings of these various beasts played out through biblical times up until the times of Jesus. Bro. Baxter is a good man, but his prophecy teachings are based on a faulty hermeneutic. His prophetic conclusions would not – could not – be found without the help of newspaper and magazine articles. Such sources are always found as the center of all of his predictions. Since when are we supposed to “rightly divide the word of tabloids?” My Bible says it is to be “the Word of God!” The Bible already gives clear indicators within itself who these beasts were. When these are read within their context it is incredible how easy it is to properly interpret Daniel’s vision and the remainder his related prophecies.
I have nothing personal against Bro. Baxter. I deeply respect him. What I have written above is only about what he teaches.
I won't disagree with you over Germany because I don't know the history of symbolism for Germany. However, I think Bro. Baxter is correct on America as I understand it.
So if you think he is wrong on these two who do you think they are since you have studied this in-dept?
Thanks for keeping a good spirit about disagreeing with his thoughts and not the person, I appreciate that. :)
TK Burk
12-06-2008, 07:47 PM
I won't disagree with you over Germany because I don't know the history of symbolism for Germany. However, I think Bro. Baxter is correct on America as I understand it.
So if you think he is wrong on these two who do you think they are since you have studied this in-dept?
Thanks for keeping a good spirit about disagreeing with his thoughts and not the person, I appreciate that. :)
Lion = Babylonian Empire
Bear = Medo-Persian Empire
Leopard = Greek Empire
4th Beast = Roman Empire
These agree with the succession of world empires, from Babylon until the time of Christ, as foretold in the image of Daniel 2:31-45.
TK Burk
12-06-2008, 07:51 PM
I won't disagree with you over Germany because I don't know the history of symbolism for Germany. However, I think Bro. Baxter is correct on America as I understand it.
So if you think he is wrong on these two who do you think they are since you have studied this in-dept?
Thanks for keeping a good spirit about disagreeing with his thoughts and not the person, I appreciate that. :)
But you have to respect the significance of the leopard being Germany. That was THE THING that launced everything else he teaches about these beasts.
Never met anyone on the edge of hysterics because of Bro. Baxter's ministry???
It was a figure of speech. The point is, he needs sensational headlines to keep people buying his magazine. I'm not saying anything about his sincerity, just that he does need sensational headlines.
Over the weekend while in Arkansas/Mississippi... I stayed in the room of a young teen who kindly gave up his room to this old man ...
On his night stand was a Sept/Oct. 2007 issue of Irvin Baxter's Endtime Prophecy magazine that screamed "2 Billion People will Die in 12 Months?"
I know that this claim has been discussed here before ... and I was partially amused at his 4 page attempt to prove that 1/3 of the world would be obliterated ... and that it would have to happen in the last year of the Bush Presidency ... and that we are in the midst of WWIII .... and that could be engaging in the Euphrates River War by now ...
What I want to know ... is if this doesn't happen ... will he retract his claims to his readership come this fall?
When did the Church allow speculative prophetic punditry to become a big business?
I glance through the magazine and it's all about selling books and dvds ... Why so much interest in this anyway?
How is this any different from prosperity preaching?
Is it too much to keep our preachers accountable for these types of claims?
The only retraction in the OT was the retracting of the sling shot when the lying prophets were stoned....
It was a figure of speech. The point is, he needs sensational headlines to keep people buying his magazine. I'm not saying anything about his sincerity, just that he does need sensational headlines.
I'll say it he is never right.
He might want to start talking about things that might happen 50 years from now and not next week!
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