The Value of a Seminary Degree [Archive]

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gloryseeker

06-27-2008, 10:21 AM

Many think that unless you go to Bible College you are not qualified for ministry and you have somehow "called yourself" into ministry.

Doesn't Paul seem to take a different position on this saying that the fruit of the work is evidence of the calling in 2 Cor 3:1-4:

1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some, letters of commendation to you or from you?
2 You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts.
4 And such confidence we have through Christ toward God. (NAS)

What is your opinion on this subject?

Michael The Disciple

06-27-2008, 10:23 AM

Timmy

06-27-2008, 10:25 AM

In the present condition of the Church seminary training is a very bad idea. You will be paying for men to teach you false doctrine on most topics.

:killinme

gloryseeker

06-27-2008, 10:31 AM

In the present condition of the Church seminary training is a very bad idea. You will be paying for men to teach you false doctrine on most topics.

personally I TOTALLY agree with you

Tyk

06-27-2008, 10:42 AM

I actually went to a bible college (upc) which I won't name for 1 semester. I can only say that out of the small group, I would say 10-15% were walking in the light and had a heart for God. I could also seethe difference in stages (freshman, junior, senior) of classes. Many of the seniors were fake, taught to "preach", and were a constant source of being this in church, and this outside the church. And boy did pride abound, I felt like I was at a peacock strutting grounds somedays(mainly the guys I'm talking about, definitely some girls too though).

I decided it was best for my soul if I didn't stay and continue to get what good there was there, because there was some good no doubt. My best friend graduated from there and hes an awesome guy. I know others who were there who did also, and they thrive for Jesus and his Kingdom. It just takes a special person to make it out and be truthfully better than what they were when they came. Many or most who go to bible college, really want to do what they can for God, and their intentions are good and innocent. A shame they are trained to be less :(

Michael The Disciple

06-27-2008, 10:42 AM

JN Anderson

06-27-2008, 11:28 AM

I think you are answering your own questions.

Timmy

06-27-2008, 02:31 PM

gloryseeker

06-27-2008, 04:42 PM

So, uneducated ministers are better at being led by the Spirit, and learning their "theology" on their own (or getting it directly from the HS), is that it? Or are we talking only about true seminaries, as opposed to Bible college (which also charges tuition, generally)?

Or are you just saying college or seminary ought to be free?

To me we find the breakdown in God's system in Paul's exhortation to the Corinthians:

1 Cor 4:15
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. (KJV)

If those who are truly called, anointed, and seasoned in the Word and ministry would raise up sons in the faith and release into ministry a new crop of anointed ministers would emerge.

Michael The Disciple

07-02-2008, 10:22 PM

A Bible College where you go away from the local Church and pay men to teach the Word seems sinful at least to me.

gloryseeker

07-02-2008, 11:25 PM

A Bible College where you go away from the local Church and pay men to teach the Word seems sinful at least to me.

That is an interesting statement. Define why you would consider it a sin. Since sin is separation or disobedience to God.

Michael The Disciple

07-03-2008, 12:05 AM

gloryseeker

07-03-2008, 12:17 AM

Michael The Disciple

07-03-2008, 12:57 AM

Apples and Oranges. Elders are in the Church to teach the truth. If they cannot teach it thereby forcing a believer out of the local body and to move somewhere and pay someone else to do the job seems like a real disgrace to such an "Elder or Pastor".

As far as money goes sure one can give to whom they want. But to charge before you will teach Gods word? I would like to see a New Testament example of it.

Baron1710

07-03-2008, 05:18 AM

Simple. I believe I know the truth. I gladly share what I know for free. Why should anyone be charged to be taught the things of Jesus Christ? Did he go to each person he taught and ask for a required sum for what he taught? Did the Apostles pay him for the doctrine?

There are so many things wrong with this thread I don't even know where to start.

Why should anyone be charged to be taught the things of Jesus Christ? Having folks who make their living teaching a subject is not a bad thing. They are not teaching you the Gospel. Should some one teach Greek for free, Hebrew, writing, persuasion, etc.? You are paying for an education.

Seminary is not the same as Bible College. Unfortunately many Bible Colleges (UPC) have had people unqualified to teach the subjects they were teaching and were nothing more than men with experience behind a pulpit who everyone thought would be a great teacher. Being a preacher does not make you an educator, it does not qualify you to teach subjects that frankly you know little or nothing about. Just the other day on this forum there was a discussion about forgiveness and remission of sins being different. This is the kind of thing unqualified men teach. Some Bible Colleges and Seminaries have men and women qualified to teach. From these one does not learn what to think but how to think and are given the tools to research and learn for ones self.

I had to spend three years in law school after undergrad and pass a bar exam in order to practice law, and preachers expect to graduate high school and teach the Scripture. Why would someone think that ignorance is a great thing for a minister? Why wouldn't someone who expects to teach the Scripture want to know how to read it, interpret it and understand it?

The Apostle Paul was extremely educated. The revelations he received from God were built upon his education they didn't replace his education. The Scripture says to "Study to show thyself approved unto God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth." Study is not reading, it’s not praying for revelations, it is putting the time in to learn. Only the most arrogant think there is nothing Seminary can teach them, personally I would never want to have a pastor who was so self absorbed that he would think that others couldn't teach him.

Michael The Disciple

07-03-2008, 09:29 AM

By your way of thinking Paul would have told Timothy, Titus, and Luke to fill out an application and pay first. Then we will begin your training.

Baron1710

07-03-2008, 09:39 AM

By your way of thinking Paul would have told Timothy, Titus, and Luke to fill out an application and pay first. Then we will begin your training.

First, Paul mentored Timothy and Titus he wasn't their teacher. Second, Luke already had an education which he used to write the majority of the NT.

Where does this anti-education idea come from?

I don't think it is a coincidence that the vast majority of the NT was written by the men with the most education.

gloryseeker

07-03-2008, 09:47 AM

There are so many things wrong with this thread I don't even know where to start.

I loved your post because I think it really captures the essence of my original question. You are obviously well educated as it comes through in your ability to communicate in words and the structure of your thought. Yet, I probably couldn't disagree more with some of the points you made.

Why should anyone be charged to be taught the things of Jesus Christ? Having folks who make their living teaching a subject is not a bad thing. They are not teaching you the Gospel. Should some one teach Greek for free, Hebrew, writing, persuasion, etc.? You are paying for an education.

The above I agree with so I won't spend time on it.

Seminary is not the same as Bible College. Unfortunately many Bible Colleges (UPC) have had people unqualified to teach the subjects they were teaching and were nothing more than men with experience behind a pulpit who everyone thought would be a great teacher.

While the concept here is true, it is also true in any field of study. I am sure that during your time in law school that you came across teachers who understood law, but were not good teachers.

I like the old saying which seems to be true in many instances where speaking of higher education, "Those who can do, those who can't teach"

Being a preacher does not make you an educator, it does not qualify you to teach subjects that frankly you know little or nothing about.

You have two issues here. First of all a "preacher" is an educator. An educator by definition is, "a person or thing that educates, esp. a teacher, principal, or other person involved in planning or directing education." Therefore, if we decide to go to dinner and I suggest a restaurant that you have never heard of I have just "educated" you.

Everyone is a "educator" to some degree. Anytime anyone opens the Word of God, they are "educating" on a subject, principle, or truth.

Now, you also spoke of being "unqualified to teach subjects." This is a true statement, but it is also common sense. Unfortunately there are schools, seminaries, churches where people try to teach subjects they no nothing about.

If a person is "called" then revelation will come in the area they are called in. This was one of the big problems with William Branham. He tried to become a teacher when he wasn't called to be a teacher. It messed him up and his ministry.

Some Bible Colleges and Seminaries have men and women qualified to teach. From these one does not learn what to think but how to think and are given the tools to research and learn for ones self. [\quote]

To me this is fundamental problem because if the person teaching doesn't think right themselves then what they are going to show the student will be a wrong way of thinking.

If you look at the church as a whole, it has lost a lot of power. We are as the times of Eli where the light in the temple has grown dim. So the people who are teaching who are people who know how to operate in a church atmosphere where the power of God is not present. Why would anyone what them to shape the way they think?

I had to spend three years in law school after undergrad and pass a bar exam in order to practice law

This is where Christians really lack spiritual understanding. They try and take the world's concept of things and apply them to a spiritual context. The church is not patterned after the world they are patterned after the Bible.

In fact, if you really do a historical study the way of the would used to be patterned after the Bible. Dad was a carpenter, musician, or whatever and he imparted his knowledge of his "anointing" to his children and they carried the torch of the family.

The world tried to improve on this system and created university and now we have a world full of educated idiots.

...and preachers expect to graduate high school and teach the Scripture.

This statement illustrates how off track your comments are. I have never seen any legitimate ministry/minister think that their high school diploma qualified them for ministry. In fact, any minister who is raising up other ministers has a training ground for which they must prove them self through.

Why would someone think that ignorance is a great thing for a minister?

Again, the absurdity of this statement baffles me. Who in the world looks for an ignorant person to follow. How in the world do you equate ignorance as lack of education. Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard, was that an ignorant decision? Sam Walton dropped out of High School and so did Dave Thomas.

The Apostle Paul was extremely educated. The revelations he received from God were built upon his education they didn't replace his education.

You are actually VERY incorrect on this:

Phil 3:8
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, (KJV)

His education was as a Pharisee. That teaching was totally contrary to what he taught as the knowledge of Christ...which is why the Jews rejected Christianity. So his former education he counted as loss and pursued the knowledge of Christ which he did not obtain through a seminary.

The Scripture says to "Study to show thyself approved unto God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth." Study is not reading, it’s not praying for revelations, it is putting the time in to learn. Only the most arrogant think there is nothing Seminary can teach them, personally I would never want to have a pastor who was so self absorbed that he would think that others couldn't teach him.[/QUOTE]

Again you have mixed topics. First of all we are to study to show ourselves approved. But I would hate to have a Pastor who studied without praying for revelation. You cannot intellectually obtain the knowledge of God, just as you cannot obtain the knowledge of God without study.

I too would not want to have a Pastor that thinks they cannot learn from someone else. But to think that a seminary is "required" to obtain that knowledge, to me, would be foolish.

Thanks for contributing to the post.

Baron1710

07-03-2008, 10:37 AM

While the concept here is true, it is also true in any field of study. I am sure that during your time in law school that you came across teachers who understood law, but were not good teachers.

I like the old saying which seems to be true in many instances where speaking of higher education, "Those who can do, those who can't teach"

No, you missed the point, I am not saying they taught because they couldn't make it on the outside, I am saying they were truly unqualified. I didn't have a single prof in law school that hadn't completed law school themselves. Some Bible colleges have allowed people to teach that had no education on the topic they were teaching.

You have two issues here. First of all a "preacher" is an educator. An educator by definition is, "a person or thing that educates, esp. a teacher, principal, or other person involved in planning or directing education." Therefore, if we decide to go to dinner and I suggest a restaurant that you have never heard of I have just "educated" you.

You fail on your own definition, you did not plan to direct my education. You gave me information, you did not educate me.

If a person is "called" then revelation will come in the area they are called in. This was one of the big problems with William Branham. He tried to become a teacher when he wasn't called to be a teacher. It messed him up and his ministry.

A person who is called is either already prepared or needs to prepare. Moses was placed in a position so that he could be educated. Luke was educated, Paul was educated.

Again you have mixed topics. First of all we are to study to show ourselves approved. But I would hate to have a Pastor who studied without praying for revelation. You cannot intellectually obtain the knowledge of God, just as you cannot obtain the knowledge of God without study.

I believe that both Romans and Aquinas would disagree with your assertion, however I never suggested anywhere that a minister should only study. If you only study you may still have something to offer and if you only pray you may have something to offer, but the most effective are those who have done both.[/QUOTE]

I too would not want to have a Pastor that thinks they cannot learn from someone else. But to think that a seminary is "required" to obtain that knowledge, to me, would be foolish.

Again you are arguing something I didn't say. However, no minister is ever weaker for having sat at the feet of people more knowledgeable than themselves.

To me this is fundamental problem because if the person teaching doesn't think right themselves then what they are going to show the student will be a wrong way of thinking.

I am not sure how to answer this without sounding arrogant. Thinking right isn't about coming to the same conclusion as the prof. It’s about learning the skills to interpret the data. You think someone has to be "right" to teach. I disagree with almost every opinion Erwin Cherminsky has on Constitutional law but I learned a lot from his bar review on Constitutional law, just because he interprets it to find a right to abortion doesn’t mean he isn't a valuable source for learning how to think about Constitutional principles.

If you look at the church as a whole, it has lost a lot of power. We are as the times of Eli where the light in the temple has grown dim. So the people who are teaching who are people who know how to operate in a church atmosphere where the power of God is not present. Why would anyone what them to shape the way they think?

irrelevant see last response.

This is where Christians really lack spiritual understanding. They try and take the world's concept of things and apply them to a spiritual context. The church is not patterned after the world they are patterned after the Bible. In fact, if you really do a historical study the way of the would used to be patterned after the Bible. Dad was a carpenter, musician, or whatever and he imparted his knowledge of his "anointing" to his children and they carried the torch of the family. The world tried to improve on this system and created university and now we have a world full of educated idiots.

Wrong. Your anti-education view is not patterned after the Bible. In fact historically our colleges were founded as a result of Christianity and Theology was considered the highest degree available. It is the church that has strayed away.

This statement illustrates how off track your comments are. I have never seen any legitimate ministry/minister think that their high school diploma qualified them for ministry. In fact, any minister who is raising up other ministers has a training ground for which they must prove them self through.

What?

Again, the absurdity of this statement baffles me. Who in the world looks for an ignorant person to follow. How in the world do you equate ignorance as lack of education. Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard, was that an ignorant decision? Sam Walton dropped out of High School and so did Dave Thomas.

Ignorance - lack of knowledge, learning, information.

No one said you cannot be a success without an education, but if your profession is to communicate only a fool would cheat himself out of that opportunity. Its like a mechanic with a only a pair of pliers he sure has limited what he could do compared to having a full tool box.

You are actually VERY incorrect on this:

Phil 3:8
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, (KJV)

His education was as a Pharisee. That teaching was totally contrary to what he taught as the knowledge of Christ...which is why the Jews rejected Christianity. So his former education he counted as loss and pursued the knowledge of Christ which he did not obtain through a seminary..

Great use of a verse where Paul was counting as loss all his works compared to salvation in Christ alone, but what you don't find is Paul saying the education he received was useless.

Michael Phelps

07-03-2008, 10:38 AM

In the present condition of the Church seminary training is a very bad idea. You will be paying for men to teach you false doctrine on most topics.

Like which topics?

Timmy

07-03-2008, 11:38 AM

. . .
Where does this anti-education idea come from?

. . .

Uneducated people are easier to control.

Cindy

07-03-2008, 12:11 PM

Sheesh, are any apostolic preachers, colleges, or orginizations doing anything right these days?

Timmy

07-03-2008, 12:14 PM

Sheesh, are any apostolic preachers, colleges, or orginizations doing anything right these days?

Probably.

:toofunny

Baron1710

07-03-2008, 12:16 PM

Sheesh, are any apostolic preachers, colleges, or orginizations doing anything right these days?

Sure they are. I know a lot of them that have been to seminaries, some of the colleges have brought the level of their instructors up, and I think UGST is at the very least an attempt to encourage education for pastors.

Cindy

07-03-2008, 03:16 PM

Sure they are. I know a lot of them that have been to seminaries, some of the colleges have brought the level of their instructors up, and I think UGST is at the very least an attempt to encourage education for pastors.

I think it would be a good idea for most pastor's to have some college classes to be better effective now. In no way should this replace studying the Word, fasting, and prayer though.

Michael The Disciple

07-03-2008, 10:52 PM

No one is wanting uneducated Preachers. What a straw man! What some of us want is a Biblical New Testament Church. Show us in the New Testament where Teachers ever got together outside the context of the Church and charged Men to teach them the word of God.

A Bible College in other words. When I see THAT I will take back what I said about it being sin.

gloryseeker

07-03-2008, 11:59 PM

Thank again for responding. Please note that any of my posts are not personal. I do disagree with you on many aspects of what you wrote, but again it is not personal with me. I do appreciate your reply.

While I could go line by line and give my disagreements I don't think that it would be productive, but I want to take one comment you make because I think it distinguishes between our though patterns on the subject.

Thinking right isn't about coming to the same conclusion as the prof. It’s about learning the skills to interpret the data. You think someone has to be "right" to teach. I disagree with almost every opinion Erwin Cherminsky has on Constitutional law but I learned a lot from his bar review on Constitutional law, just because he interprets it to find a right to abortion doesn’t mean he isn't a valuable source for learning how to think about Constitutional principles.

I actually agree with your statement here. Your statement is an argument for your position and I think your position defines my argument. However, let me first of all say that I am not "anti-education" as you stated.

When you talk about coming to the "same conclusions" I totally agree with you in your legal/constitutional argument. Laws are interpreted and they evolve over time. The Word of God does not, but Christian educators have tried to do this.

I recently saw on TV some religious scholars dissecting the story of the wall of Jericho falling down and how that doesn't mean they literally fell down, but symbolically fell from the standpoint that the Israelites were able to defeat Jericho. Thus, from a figurative standpoint the walls which represent they security was unable to secure them and so the writers said they "fell."

My definition of these so called scholars is that they have been educated to stupidity. Someone taught them how to "interpret data" and they came to some kind of logical conclusion that is totally void of faith or trust in the Word of God.

The Word of God is truth and the truth of the Word is not the same as truth in the world. The Church represents the most powerful force of the universe, yet it is impudent in most respects. It engages in spiritual masturbation satisfying itself thinking that it is experiencing the real thing.

I don't have a seminary or Bible College degree (you can probably tell by my punctuation and sentence structure), but I guarantee you that I can walk circles around most ministers in the areas of faith, healing, and prosperity. While I am open to learn from "some" who have wisdom beyond me, the majority of what I have learned has been by the Holy Spirit. Revelation obtain through prayer and study of the Word. The result of this is that I have people consistently healed in our services without having hands laid on them or even anyone praying for them. There is a power in the Word and you are not going to tap into that power through your intellect because God's thoughts are higher than ours.

Well, I've lingered too long...but thanks for the discussion it was fun :happy4th

RandyWayne

07-04-2008, 01:12 AM

There are many good thoughts here. I do think that future teachers/preachers need SOME formal education on the doctrine they plan on espousing, I don't believe it needs to be a high dollar formal college setting. It CAN be but if the person seeking the education is sincere, any (good) correspondence course should do the trick.
However, what I sincerely believe that more pastors need is a formal degree under their belt -such as in history, science, etc. It provides what is so often called a "well rounded" world view outlook.

Michael The Disciple

07-04-2008, 09:34 AM

ReformedDave

07-04-2008, 10:13 AM

Is that an educated, well refined, Seminary principle? Or do we contend for the Faith once delivered to the Saints?

False dilemma. It doesn't have to be one OR the other. I don't see where the doctrine of Scripture is taught systematically in a church/home fellowship but I'm sure you have nothing against that.

Pro31:28

07-04-2008, 10:16 AM

And also where did the idea even start that you had to go off somewhere and PAY SOMEONE to teach you the truths of YHWH? So absurd when that is the job of the ministry in the first place. Pay, pay, pay.

What happened to freely you have received freely give?

I am kind of stumped here... Should we get Bibles for free too? what about books? Should all materials used in process of study be free?

IMOThis sounds a bit like welfare mentality to me...

ReformedDave

07-04-2008, 10:21 AM

I am kind of stumped here... Should we get Bibles for free too? what about books? Should all materials used in process of study be free?

IMOThis sounds a bit like welfare mentality to me...

Witnessing and active outreach and evangelism and teaching on a local level should be free but to say that a man shouldn't be reimbursed for his years of study especially when it is in a formalized situation I believe is wrong. If that same man was teaching math you'd have no problem with it. All truth is God's truth.

Michael Phelps

07-04-2008, 10:23 AM

I am kind of stumped here... Should we get Bibles for free too? what about books? Should all materials used in process of study be free?

IMOThis sounds a bit like welfare mentality to me...

When you buy a Bible, you're not paying for the Word, you're paying for the leather, and paper, and ink, and binding costs, etc.

When you pay for a seminary education, you're paying for lights, the building, the salaries of the full time teachers, etc. I think I can safely say that a Bible School instructor is not going to get rich from teaching at a seminary.

Baron1710

07-04-2008, 10:32 AM

When it comes to the Godhead, water baptism, the Holy Spirit, we demand chapter and verse. Yet on this issue we have silence. No defender of Bible College seems to have that. So is it ok just to do whatever seems right in our own eyes? Is that an educated, well refined, Seminary principle? Or do we contend for the Faith once delivered to the Saints?

Because the Bible doesn't say anything about it we shouldn't do it that way? So do you have chapter and verse to use a microphone? I don't see were Peter used a microphone. Do you take a visiting minister out to dinner? I don't see where they went "out" to eat in the NT.

The idea that we need to do it exactly as the primitive church did is silly. They started with what they knew meeting in the synagogue, when they were tossed out of there they had to do something different, so they met in houses for a period of time. The idea that the Apostles didn't do it this way so neither should we or we won't be blessed, see revival, [put your thought here], etc. is asinine. It turns God into a cosmic ATM that you have to put in the pin number of the disciples or no revival comes out. Christianity is about a relationship with Christ not a quest to do it like they did 2,000 years ago.

Michael The Disciple

07-04-2008, 10:57 AM

False dilemma. It doesn't have to be one OR the other. I don't see where the doctrine of Scripture is taught systematically in a church/home fellowship but I'm sure you have nothing against that.

Thats strange. I assume you mean the doctrine that scripture is our guide. Yeshua said the scriptures cannot be broken. Also scripture is simply the putting in writing of that which is revealed to the Apostles and Prophets.

But we need not get off topic over it. Most understand the Christian draws from scripture to order his life.

So to you the fact that the New Testament Church did not have Bible College where you leave the local body and go somewhere to PAY MEN to teach the word has no meaning for today.

Paul knew nothing of the sort. Here was his way of communicating truth.

17: And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
18: And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
19: Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
20: And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
21: Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
22: And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
23: Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
24: But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
25: And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26: Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27: For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28: Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29: For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30: Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31: Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
32: And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
33: I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
34: Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
35: I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. Acts 20:17-35

Notice in verse 27 Paul said he taught the Elders THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD. They knew everything he knew! It was THEIR JOB then to teach it to the Church.

One need not go away for years paying many thousands of dollars to men to know the whole counsel of God. If they cant get it at the local Church something is seriously wrong with the ministry there.

So THIS is the New Testament way. Seminary is just an invention of men that have put their own approval on it.

Notice in verse 34-35 here Paul who would have been the head of the Bible College (if such thing existed) was working with his own hands to make a living. Not only so but he tells THE ELDERS who are responsible for preaching the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD that he did it FOR AN EXAMPLE TO THEM!

How outrageous that men today demand salaries to teach the holy word of Christ. The loving, humble servants of Christ would not consider such a thing.

Michael The Disciple

07-04-2008, 11:03 AM

Because the Bible doesn't say anything about it we shouldn't do it that way? So do you have chapter and verse to use a microphone? I don't see were Peter used a microphone. Do you take a visiting minister out to dinner? I don't see where they went "out" to eat in the NT.

The idea that we need to do it exactly as the primitive church did is silly. They started with what they knew meeting in the synagogue, when they were tossed out of there they had to do something different, so they met in houses for a period of time. The idea that the Apostles didn't do it this way so neither should we or we won't be blessed, see revival, [put your thought here], etc. is asinine. It turns God into a cosmic ATM that you have to put in the pin number of the disciples or no revival comes out. Christianity is about a relationship with Christ not a quest to do it like they did 2,000 years ago.

It is your comparing apples and oranges that is "silly". The scriptures do not speak of Bible College. But they DO SHOW THE WAY A CHURCH IS TO OPERATE. Much scripture shows that.

Whether one uses a mic is not a Bible doctrine. Church government and practice is well attested to in scripture. If one choses to ignore it and go their OWN WAY it fulfills the words of Paul to the Ephesian Elders.

29: For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30: Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31: Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. Acts 20:29-31

ReformedDave

07-04-2008, 11:21 AM

Thats strange. I assume you mean the doctrine that scripture is our guide. Yeshua said the scriptures cannot be broken. Also scripture is simply the putting in writing of that which is revealed to the Apostles and Prophets.

But we need not get off topic over it. Most understand the Christian draws from scripture to order his life.

So to you the fact that the New Testament Church did not have Bible College where you leave the local body and go somewhere to PAY MEN to teach the word has no meaning for today.

Paul knew nothing of the sort. Here was his way of communicating truth.

17: And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
18: And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
19: Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
20: And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
21: Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
22: And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
23: Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
24: But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
25: And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26: Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27: For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28: Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29: For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30: Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31: Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
32: And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
33: I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
34: Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
35: I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. Acts 20:17-35

Notice in verse 27 Paul said he taught the Elders THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD. They knew everything he knew! It was THEIR JOB then to teach it to the Church.

One need not go away for years paying many thousands of dollars to men to know the whole counsel of God. If they cant get it at the local Church something is seriously wrong with the ministry there.

So THIS is the New Testament way. Seminary is just an invention of men that have put their own approval on it.

Notice in verse 34-35 here Paul who would have been the head of the Bible College (if such thing existed) was working with his own hands to make a living. Not only so but he tells THE ELDERS who are responsible for preaching the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD that he did it FOR AN EXAMPLE TO THEM!

How outrageous that men today demand salaries to teach the holy word of Christ. The loving, humble servants of Christ would not consider such a thing.

And Paul was not paid? Isn't a workman worthy of his wages?

Do you really think Paul taught Greek, Hebrew, hermeneutics, grammar, etc to all these saints? This is a bit of hyperbole on Paul's part. It simply means that Paul taught the Gospel and the complete emphasis of scripture. It is physically impossible for a church to receive a seminary training by one man in a relatively short period of time.

Paul never condemned a formalized training school. He never stated that this was a pattern that must be followed.

If they cant get it at the local Church something is seriously wrong with the ministry there.

On a general basis I actually agree.

Michael The Disciple

07-04-2008, 01:28 PM

And Paul was not paid? Isn't a workman worthy of his wages?

Do you really think Paul taught Greek, Hebrew, hermeneutics, grammar, etc to all these saints? This is a bit of hyperbole on Paul's part. It simply means that Paul taught the Gospel and the complete emphasis of scripture. It is physically impossible for a church to receive a seminary training by one man in a relatively short period of time.

Paul never condemned a formalized training school. He never stated that this was a pattern that must be followed.

Paul received OFFERINGS like the Philippians sent him when he was in Thessalonica. But you can read for yourself what he told the Ephesian Elders:

34: Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
35: I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Is that not clear? Paul THE APOSTLE worked a job with his own hands to support not only himself but those with him. Then he told the ELDERS of a large Church he did it as AN EXAMPLE TO THEM!

He wanted to make sure that THEY would help the poor and know it is more blessed to give than to receive. Note this would have been such a perfect time to remind them to collect the tithes of the Ephesians so they would be blessed. No. Not a word about them being paid for their service.

And sure they could receive offerings like Paul did when they were given. But it would have been considered an abomination by these men to think they had to be paid to Shepherd the flock of Jesus.

As far as teaching "hermeneutics" Im sure Paul never heard of it. He was not the theaterical Preacher like we see today. He taught what he had seen and heard from Jesus not a bunch of un necessary things.

As I understand it a great percent of Seminarians do not believe in inspiration of scripture, the virgin birth, or the resurrection of Christ. Is that where higher education leads?

Baron1710

07-04-2008, 01:37 PM

Michael The Disciple

07-04-2008, 01:46 PM

Maybe a good class on hermeneutics would be helpful for you.

Those are your words right? No scriptural backing for Bible College or Seminary. If there was you would put it in the thread. Jesus taught his followers. They taught others. That is called DISCIPLESHIP. That is in the Bible.

I guess its true the faith once delivered to the saints is a forgotten concept.

Why no comment on the things I wrote? Are they unreadable to you?

Baron1710

07-04-2008, 01:56 PM

Those are your words right? No scriptural backing for Bible College or Seminary. If there was you would put it in the thread. Jesus taught his followers. They taught others. That is called DISCIPLESHIP. That is in the Bible.

I guess its true the faith once delivered to the saints is a forgotten concept.

Why no comment on the things I wrote? Are they unreadable to you?

No, I read them. I did comment on them, and I still have the same opinion you could use a class in hermeneutics. Does the Bible tell you that you should learn Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic so you can better understand what you read? There are a lot of differences between Paul and you.

1. He had a first rate education, and could even quote the philosophers in his sermons.
2. He knew the languages of the Scriptures.
3. He had been taught to interpret Scripture.
4. He wasn't 2,000 years removed from the culture.

Bro-Larry

07-04-2008, 03:48 PM

It occurred to me, that if a person has a love for truth, he/she could acquire a lot of wisdom and knowledge, right here on AFF. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------JUST READING MY POSTS AND THREADS. :reaction :happy4th:fireworks:fireworks

ReformedDave

07-04-2008, 05:22 PM

Paul received OFFERINGS like the Philippians sent him when he was in Thessalonica. But you can read for yourself what he told the Ephesian Elders:

34: Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
35: I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Is that not clear? Paul THE APOSTLE worked a job with his own hands to support not only himself but those with him. Then he told the ELDERS of a large Church he did it as AN EXAMPLE TO THEM!

He wanted to make sure that THEY would help the poor and know it is more blessed to give than to receive. Note this would have been such a perfect time to remind them to collect the tithes of the Ephesians so they would be blessed. No. Not a word about them being paid for their service.

And sure they could receive offerings like Paul did when they were given. But it would have been considered an abomination by these men to think they had to be paid to Shepherd the flock of Jesus.

As far as teaching "hermeneutics" Im sure Paul never heard of it. He was not the theaterical Preacher like we see today. He taught what he had seen and heard from Jesus not a bunch of un necessary things.

As I understand it a great percent of Seminarians do not believe in inspiration of scripture, the virgin birth, or the resurrection of Christ. Is that where higher education leads?

First of all, as I stated before, Paul did not command this as an edict that one must follow. I strongly believe in elders and their ordained places of service. We all should labor or we should not eat. But not all work is manual labor. Some is teaching. What you are saying is if someone teaches math or science for a living that is alright because it is not 'spiritual'. But if they bring up scripture or things of God it is sinful.........interesting. BTW, I'm sure Paul, with his extensive training, understood the methods of Biblical interpretation so I'm quite certain he was acquainted with hermanutic principles.

You are mixing and matching things to your advantage. Paul was referring to helping the less advantaged and those in need and that had nothing to do with education.

BTW, it's true that the Apostle met the risen Savior in a fashion that we have not available to us. That is one of the qualifications of an apostle....so you and I are out of luck there.

Guess what? Some pastors do not believe in inspiration of scripture, the virgin birth, or the resurrection of Christ. Is that where "Pastoring" leads?

Michael The Disciple

07-04-2008, 08:03 PM

What you are saying is if someone teaches math or science for a living that is alright because it is not 'spiritual'. But if they bring up scripture or things of God it is sinful.........interesting.

No I never said anything remotely like that. What I AM SAYING is what Paul said. He worked with his hands for a living. He also received FREEWILL OFFERINGS when given.

He never asked anyone to pay him for what he did. Neither did the Messiah Jesus. Thats what I said.

And then he told the Elders (those who feed the flock) he did it for an example for them.

The money set up in the Churches is so firmly entrenched its hard for people to look at what Paul told the Elders of a large New Testament Church.

As far as education in the word of God Im all for it. Paul told Timothy to meditate on the doctrine giving himself totally to it. He told him to rightly divide the word of truth.

One does need Teachers. But Teachers who demand pay to teach the Children of Light are not cut out of the same cloth as those in the Churches established by the Apostles.

Im sure many of them are sincere but they have never heard the truth. And when they hear it it seems wrong because they have been trained that money makes the world go round.

How would you feel if each time you sat down to fellowship the word with someone who knows more than you they would say "now give up what you owe for this teaching"?

ReformedDave

07-04-2008, 10:22 PM

No I never said anything remotely like that. What I AM SAYING is what Paul said. He worked with his hands for a living. He also received FREEWILL OFFERINGS when given.

He never asked anyone to pay him for what he did. Neither did the Messiah Jesus. Thats what I said.

And then he told the Elders (those who feed the flock) he did it for an example for them.

The money set up in the Churches is so firmly entrenched its hard for people to look at what Paul told the Elders of a large New Testament Church.

As far as education in the word of God Im all for it. Paul told Timothy to meditate on the doctrine giving himself totally to it. He told him to rightly divide the word of truth.

One does need Teachers. But Teachers who demand pay to teach the Children of Light are not cut out of the same cloth as those in the Churches established by the Apostles.

Im sure many of them are sincere but they have never heard the truth. And when they hear it it seems wrong because they have been trained that money makes the world go round.

How would you feel if each time you sat down to fellowship the word with someone who knows more than you they would say "now give up what you owe for this teaching"?

I agree that the 'formalized' teaching of Scripture will never take the place of the church and her ministry. It is not a substitute. A church with elders who are able to teach is the God ordained plan. At the same time I see a place for formalized instruction to go along side those who want to go into the pulpit ministry. The church is now at her weakest, I believe, in history and teaching by Godly qualified men surely could help...and it has.

You said, How would you feel if each time you sat down to fellowship the word with someone who knows more than you they would say "now give up what you owe for this teaching"? In reality I know several 'profs' that have taken the time with me to mentor, teach, and to pray with me. One has even sent me chapters of his unpublished book because it addressed my problems and it has cost me nothing. They are some of the most Godly men I have ever run across. They would never usurp the Biblical plan of the church and in fact some are elders and BTW, they are not rich men. Now from 8-5, Monday through Friday, they do the work which God has blessed them with the skill to do. But they still give their tithes and offerings like anybody else. To tell the truth they give more of their time, talent,and treasure than almost anyone I know and are submissive to the authority placed over them. Our pastor has said that they never have even corrected him when he knew they disagreed with him of a secondary issue.

Im sure many of them are sincere but they have never heard the truth. And when they hear it it seems wrong because they have been trained that money makes the world go round.For every bad professor I can show you a bad pastor that is just as money hungry as anyone in the world. Can we say "TBN"? In fact, not too many professors are on TBN.

Joelel

07-13-2008, 06:30 PM

Jermyn Davidson

07-20-2008, 10:53 PM

I just had an opus. As Pentecostals, we like to break God and His workings into simple formulas. For example, if I do this, this, and this just like this every time then I will get that, just like so and so.

But that kind of thinking takes away from the personal relationship aspect of Christianity and it limits what God can do today to what He did yesterday.

Timmy

07-21-2008, 07:09 AM

I just had an opus.

Congratulations! Boy or girl? ;)

As Pentecostals, we like to break God and His workings into simple formulas. For example, if I do this, this, and this just like this every time then I will get that, just like so and so.

But that kind of thinking takes away from the personal relationship aspect of Christianity and it limits what God can do today to what He did yesterday.

There are formulas in the Bible. They don't always work, though, so yeah: I guess everyone should try their own variations.

gloryseeker

07-21-2008, 09:55 AM

There are formulas in the Bible. They don't always work, though, so yeah: I guess everyone should try their own variations.

Actually there are not formulas in the Bible. Everything works by faith and the heart of man.

Timmy

07-21-2008, 09:58 AM

Actually there are not formulas in the Bible. Everything works by faith and the heart of man.

That's a formula!

Jame's 5:14-15 is a formula! It says do x and God will do y.

gloryseeker

07-21-2008, 11:01 AM

That's a formula!

Jame's 5:14-15 is a formula! It says do x and God will do y.

How in the world do you get a formula out of that?

There is first instruction:

1. If you are sick call for the elders to anoint you (procedure)

Then prayer the prayer of faith....

If you don't have faith, if you don't know how to pray the prayer of faith, if there is doubt in your heart (read James 1), if your afraid (negative faith) you are going to die then you aren't going to get healed.

Nothing about a formula, but all about faith.

Give me another one!

Timmy

07-21-2008, 06:51 PM

OK. There are no formulas. Just instructions on how to do stuff. If those instructions include having faith, it's not a formula. Got it.

Michael The Disciple

07-22-2008, 12:05 AM

Hi Michael,Do you believe you know the full truth ?

I believe I know the full FOUNDATIONAL truth. If one does not have confidence he knows at least that he should not be in the ministry.

gloryseeker

07-22-2008, 09:00 AM

I believe I know the full FOUNDATIONAL truth. If one does not have confidence he knows at least that he should not be in the ministry.

Michael, that was a very good answer :highfive