Prayers of Vengence: May his children be fatherless

[SDG]

The psalms are filled with various songs/ prayers of vengeance. There are other similar passages scattered especially in the OT.

Sometimes it appears to a casual observer to be somewhat extreme.

I've met various brethren who read these types of Psalms and take them to heart. They are often martyrs of their own making and often quote these Psalms with fluency against all of their imagined, and sometimes real, enemies.

One passage in particular that stands out is Psalm 109.

Psalm 109

For the director of music. Of David. A psalm.

1 O God, whom I praise,
do not remain silent, 2 for wicked and deceitful men
have opened their mouths against me;
they have spoken against me with lying tongues.
3 With words of hatred they surround me;
they attack me without cause.
4 In return for my friendship they accuse me,
but I am a man of prayer.
5 They repay me evil for good,
and hatred for my friendship.


This is where it gets intense...


6 Appoint [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%20109;&version=31;#fen-NIV-15762a)] an evil man to oppose him;
let an accuser [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%20109;&version=31;#fen-NIV-15762c)] stand at his right hand.
7 When he is tried, let him be found guilty,
and may his prayers condemn him.
8 May his days be few;
may another take his place of leadership.
9 May his children be fatherless
and his wife a widow.
10 May his children be wandering beggars;
may they be driven [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%20109;&version=31;#fen-NIV-15766d)] from their ruined homes.
11 May a creditor seize all he has;
may strangers plunder the fruits of his labor.
12 May no one extend kindness to him
or take pity on his fatherless children.
13 May his descendants be cut off,
their names blotted out from the next generation.
14 May the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the LORD;
may the sin of his mother never be blotted out.
15 May their sins always remain before the LORD,
that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.
16 For he never thought of doing a kindness,
but hounded to death the poor
and the needy and the brokenhearted.
17 He loved to pronounce a curse—
may it [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%20109;&version=31;#fen-NIV-15773e)] come on him;
he found no pleasure in blessing—
may it be [f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%20109;&version=31;#fen-NIV-15773f)] far from him.
18 He wore cursing as his garment;
it entered into his body like water,
into his bones like oil.
19 May it be like a cloak wrapped about him,
like a belt tied forever around him.
20 May this be the LORD's payment to my accusers,
to those who speak evil of me.


[B]Then it mellows here ....


21 But you, O Sovereign LORD,
deal well with me for your name's sake;
out of the goodness of your love, deliver me.
22 For I am poor and needy,
and my heart is wounded within me.
23 I fade away like an evening shadow;
I am shaken off like a locust.
24 My knees give way from fasting;
my body is thin and gaunt.
25 I am an object of scorn to my accusers;
when they see me, they shake their heads.
26 Help me, O LORD my God;
save me in accordance with your love.
27 Let them know that it is your hand,
that you, O LORD, have done it.
28 They may curse, but you will bless;
when they attack they will be put to shame,
but your servant will rejoice.
29 My accusers will be clothed with disgrace
and wrapped in shame as in a cloak.
30 With my mouth I will greatly extol the LORD;
in the great throng I will praise him.
31 For he stands at the right hand of the needy one,
to save his life from those who condemn him.
__________________________________________________ _

I have some serious questions:

1.Is it right to pray this way?

2.Is it healthy to intercede in this manner?

3. How does one reconcile these type of Psalms with Christ's command to "Love thy enemy" and "Pray for those that curse you"

4. Is the Psalmist in this chapter being selfish?

[SDG]

How about this one???

Psalm 139:21,22

21 Do I not hate those who hate You, O LORD?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?

22 I hate them with the utmost hatred;
They have become my enemies.

[RevDWW]

One must look at these in light of knowing our real enemy. The two greatest enemies of a Christian are our flesh and the devil. And in that order.

Doesn't the word say we wrestle not against flesh and blood...........?

[SDG]

One must look at these in light of knowing our real enemy. The two greatest enemies of a Christian are our flesh and the devil. And in that order.

Doesn't the word say we wrestle not against flesh and blood...........?

Yet these Psalms seem pretty people-specific... do they not????

[SDG]

Bump ... any of you pray in this manner????

[RevDWW]

Yet these Psalms seem pretty people-specific... do they not????

Sure, David had flesh and blood enemies looking to kill him. How many of those do you have? ;)

[SDG]

Sure, David had flesh and blood enemies looking to kill him. How many of those do you have? ;)

Around here????

[mizpeh]

Bump ... any of you pray in this manner????

No, do you?

Jesus want us to bless those that curse us and to pray for those that despitefully use us that we may be like our Father in heaven. It's no longer an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. God has called us to a higher level, to be like Him. For He is kind to the unjust and expects us to be His children and imitate our heavenly Father. :

[Rhoni]

I just quote some of the Psalms when I pray...if one of those vengeance ones fit...well David prayed it so I thought it must be all right for me too;)!

Blessings, Rhoni

[Sam]

Was the Apostle Paul praying that way when he said, "Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works" in his last epistle before his homegoing?

[mizpeh]

Was the Apostle Paul praying that way when he said, "Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works" in his last epistle before his homegoing?

Maybe Alexander the coppersmith had died before Paul wrote this line! :winkgrin

[freeatlast]

Was the Apostle Paul praying that way when he said, "Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works" in his last epistle before his homegoing?

Kinda sounds that way to me Jim.:grampa

[SDG]

Paul was very abrasive, and maybe even somewhat vengeful, in nature ....

Max Lucado, speculates in his book, In the Grip of Grace, that his abrasiveness might have been the thorn in his flesh.

He writes:

Whatever he learned at the feet of Gamaliel, he might have dozed of the day they discussed the topic of tact.

Before he knew grace, he had killed Christians.

After he knew grace, he grilled Christians.

Example? "When Peter came to Antioch, I challenged him face to face because he was wrong.[Gal. 2:11] Written like a true diplomat.

In Paul’s view you were either on God’s side or Satan’s , and should you slide from the first to the second, he didn’t keep it secret, “Hymeneaus and Alexander have done that, and I have given them to Satan, so they will learn not to speak against God.” [ 1 Timothy 1:20]

Everyone within range of his tongue and pen knew how he felt and knew when to duck.
________________________________

My type of guy !!!!!!!!!! ........... :aaa

[RevDWW]

Paul was very abrasive, and maybe even somewhat vengeful, in nature ....

Max Lucado, speculates in his book, In the Grip of Grace that his abrasiveness might have been the thorn in his flesh.

He writes:

Whatever he learned at the feet of Gamaliel, he might have dozed of the day they discussed the topic of tact. Before he knew grace, he had killed Christians. After he knew grace he grilled Christians.

Example? "When Peter came to Antioch, I challenged him face to face because he was wrong.[Gal. 2:11] Written like a true diplomat.

In Paul’s view you were either on God’s side or Satan’s , and should you slide from the first to the second, he didn’t keep it secret, “Hymeneaus and Alexander have done that, and I have given them to Satan, so they will learn not to speak against God.” [ 1 Timothy 1:20]

Everyone within range of his tongue and pen knew how he felt and knew when to duck.
________________________________

My type of guy !!!!!!!!!! ........... :aaa

Note he did it face to face not on an Public forum.......:winkgrin

[mizpeh]

Paul was very abrasive, and maybe even somewhat vengeful, in nature ....

Max Lucado, speculates in his book, In the Grip of Grace that his abrasiveness might have been the thorn in his flesh.

He writes:

Whatever he learned at the feet of Gamaliel, he might have dozed of the day they discussed the topic of tact. Before he knew grace, he had killed Christians. After he knew grace he grilled Christians.

Example? "When Peter came to Antioch, I challenged him face to face because he was wrong.[Gal. 2:11] Written like a true diplomat.

In Paul’s view you were either on God’s side or Satan’s , and should you slide from the first to the second, he didn’t keep it secret, “Hymeneaus and Alexander have done that, and I have given them to Satan, so they will learn not to speak against God.” [ 1 Timothy 1:20]

Everyone within range of his tongue and pen knew how he felt and knew when to duck.
________________________________

My type of guy !!!!!!!!!! ........... :aaa

The same guy who wrote 1Corinthians 13 and Roman 12:14-21

[brights]

I think one needs to put himself on a situation where you cry out for justice. I prayed a prayer of vengeance for my Dad who was shot cold blooded more than 10 times on his body by 2 gunmen with a .45 caliber gun. He was dead on the spot. The gunmen escaped. I'm still in shock and mourning for my Dad's untimely tragic death. He died May 22, 2007 at 9:30am. He was 60yrs old. The promised resurrection is my only hope to see him again, to hug him tight and to say I love you Dad and I miss you so much. I'm glad my Dad accepted Jesus few months before he was murdered.

I mean, why did God allow this?? I'm so much in tears... why did God did not prevent this? Am I a bad Christian? Did I do something really wrong? I'm confused. But, I know according to scriptures, God has already ordained the number of years we shall live here on Earth and everyone has a schedule, no matter the manner of death.

It pains me so much that we live in a very wicked world. Heartless and cruel men roam about, getting hired as hitman. I hate this world and everything in it. I want to take revenge, but God said, forgive. I forgive, but I leave room for God's wrath, vengeance is His, He shall repay.

I prayed a prayer of vengeance for every bullet they shall pay a hundred fold, may God's fury vengeance be upon them. Everyone involved behind the murder of my Dad shall pay dearly and don't deserve to live.

Anyway, pray for me and my family to recover as soon as possible as we want to get on with our lives. Pray for our protection from wicked men. And pray for my Dad's swift justice and pray that all the people behind my Dad's murder shall pay dearly for what they have done.

Thank you brothers and sisters, may God bless you always.

[Sister Alvear]

I think our prayers should reflect to real situations. They should not be prayed when we are mad at someone. We are aslo told to pray FOR oue enemies..so the old word balance comes to my mind...we know something David did not know and that is GRACE... Grace should affect every area of our life.
We have to have as Dobson puts it. "tough love"... The flesh doesn't to much like tough love especially if we are being corrected.

Oh, wretched man that I am...Paul

[DAII]

The psalms are filled with various songs/ prayers of vengeance. There are other similar passages scattered especially in the OT.

Sometimes it appears to a casual observer to be somewhat extreme.

I've met various brethren who read these types of Psalms and take them to heart. They are often martyrs of their own making and often quote these Psalms with fluency against all of their imagined, and sometimes real, enemies.

One passage in particular that stands out is Psalm 109.

Psalm 109

For the director of music. Of David. A psalm.

1 O God, whom I praise,
do not remain silent, 2 for wicked and deceitful men
have opened their mouths against me;
they have spoken against me with lying tongues.
3 With words of hatred they surround me;
they attack me without cause.
4 In return for my friendship they accuse me,
but I am a man of prayer.
5 They repay me evil for good,
and hatred for my friendship.


This is where it gets intense...


6 Appoint [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%20109;&version=31;#fen-NIV-15762a)] an evil man to oppose him;
let an accuser [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%20109;&version=31;#fen-NIV-15762c)] stand at his right hand.
7 When he is tried, let him be found guilty,
and may his prayers condemn him.
8 May his days be few;
may another take his place of leadership.
9 May his children be fatherless
and his wife a widow.
10 May his children be wandering beggars;
may they be driven [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%20109;&version=31;#fen-NIV-15766d)] from their ruined homes.
11 May a creditor seize all he has;
may strangers plunder the fruits of his labor.
12 May no one extend kindness to him
or take pity on his fatherless children.
13 May his descendants be cut off,
their names blotted out from the next generation.
14 May the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the LORD;
may the sin of his mother never be blotted out.
15 May their sins always remain before the LORD,
that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.
16 For he never thought of doing a kindness,
but hounded to death the poor
and the needy and the brokenhearted.
17 He loved to pronounce a curse—
may it [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%20109;&version=31;#fen-NIV-15773e)] come on him;
he found no pleasure in blessing—
may it be [f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%20109;&version=31;#fen-NIV-15773f)] far from him.
18 He wore cursing as his garment;
it entered into his body like water,
into his bones like oil.
19 May it be like a cloak wrapped about him,
like a belt tied forever around him.
20 May this be the LORD's payment to my accusers,
to those who speak evil of me.


[B]Then it mellows here ....


21 But you, O Sovereign LORD,
deal well with me for your name's sake;
out of the goodness of your love, deliver me.
22 For I am poor and needy,
and my heart is wounded within me.
23 I fade away like an evening shadow;
I am shaken off like a locust.
24 My knees give way from fasting;
my body is thin and gaunt.
25 I am an object of scorn to my accusers;
when they see me, they shake their heads.
26 Help me, O LORD my God;
save me in accordance with your love.
27 Let them know that it is your hand,
that you, O LORD, have done it.
28 They may curse, but you will bless;
when they attack they will be put to shame,
but your servant will rejoice.
29 My accusers will be clothed with disgrace
and wrapped in shame as in a cloak.
30 With my mouth I will greatly extol the LORD;
in the great throng I will praise him.
31 For he stands at the right hand of the needy one,
to save his life from those who condemn him.
__________________________________________________ _

I have some serious questions:

1.Is it right to pray this way?

2.Is it healthy to intercede in this manner?

3. How does one reconcile these type of Psalms with Christ's command to "Love thy enemy" and "Pray for those that curse you"

4. Is the Psalmist in this chapter being selfish?



Lord, have your way with the haters!

[n david]

I've prayed and quoted "vengence" scriptures from Psalms before.

[Aquila]

I too have prayed and quoted vengence verses from the Psalms. The way I see it, I'm just laying my case and my request for justice before God, the God who knows what is right to do. Should God not execute justice as I desired it, I don't take matters into my own hands. And if asked for forgiveness, I give it as commanded of our Lord.

[missourimary]

I try to remember that I've made mistakes too, and that I would want mercy if it were me. On the other hand... I've always thrived on that verse about heaping coals of fire on their heads. :winkgrin

[Timmy]

Ooooo, I better be nice to you guys, or you might pray a prayer of vengeance on me! OOooooo, I'm so scared!

:toofunny

[Timmy]

OK, a related question, for those of you who have prayed for vengeance:

Did it work?

[Timmy]

OK, a related question, for those of you who have prayed for vengeance:

Did it work?

Anyone? Come on, testify of God's miracle-working power! :)

[TJJJ]

Remember,

Psalms was written to the physical,

But in the New Testament we read....

Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
Luk 6:34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Be careful of praying curses,

[Timmy]

Remember,

Psalms was written to the physical,

But in the New Testament we read....

Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
Luk 6:34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Be careful of praying curses,

Can I "borrow" $1000? :woot

[TJJJ]

Can I "borrow" $1000? :woot

Checks in the mail!:ursofunny

[Timmy]

Checks in the mail!:ursofunny

:lol

[godsservant25]

I remember Bro TW Barnes telling me about a witch who came to put a curse on him. He prayed that whatever she put on him would be 7 times worse on her! She called him in the middle of the night begging for mercy! I have prayed judgment on people who were against God and it has always worked. I never wanted anyone dead but they have been held at bay and not able to hinder the work of the Kingdom! I love them- I just don't like them warring against God's people! Remember, we war NOT against flesh and blood but against powers and PRINCIPALITIES! It is usually a principality NOT a personality!

[RandyWayne]

I remember Bro TW Barnes telling me about a witch who came to put a curse on him. He prayed that whatever she put on him would be 7 times worse on her! (Why 7 times? Why not 100 times?)

She called him in the middle of the night begging for mercy! I have prayed judgment on people who were against God and it has always worked. (Always? Did you happen to praying against the Packers this years during that Arizona game?)

I never wanted anyone dead but they have been held at bay and not able to hinder the work of the Kingdom! (Come now! Admit it! You wouldn't have been sorry if SOME of them ended up dead. Just further witnessing cred!)

I love them- I just don't like them warring against God's people! Remember, we war NOT against flesh and blood but against powers and PRINCIPALITIES! It is usually a principality NOT a personality!

Other then Jesus overturning a few money changers tables in anger, I cannot remember him sending curses on His enemies......

[Timmy]

I remember Bro TW Barnes telling me about a witch who came to put a curse on him. He prayed that whatever she put on him would be 7 times worse on her! She called him in the middle of the night begging for mercy! I have prayed judgment on people who were against God and it has always worked. I never wanted anyone dead but they have been held at bay and not able to hinder the work of the Kingdom! I love them- I just don't like them warring against God's people! Remember, we war NOT against flesh and blood but against powers and PRINCIPALITIES! It is usually a principality NOT a personality!

Thanks for the testimony!

You can try it on me, if you like. Not that I'm against God, but, well, read some of my posts and see if you think I may deserve some "judgment". E.g., have a look at my blog: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=25404. And my "news conference": http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=24936. Don't let my good nature and humor fool you. There's one poster (an admin, no less) that sees past it, when nobody else can: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=866387#post866387. I'm a mocker. Subtly (:lol) arguing against your faith. If anyone needs a prayer of vengeance against him, it's me! How 'bout it?

[Timmy]

Other then Jesus overturning a few money changers tables in anger, I cannot remember him sending curses on His enemies......

Don't forget about that poor fig tree! :winkgrin

[RandyWayne]

Don't forget about that poor fig tree! :winkgrin

I suppose if you're a botanist it is worth shedding a tear over....

[Timmy]

I suppose if you're a botanist it is worth shedding a tear over....

Well, what about the lesson for us? What should we learn from this story? Jesus found a tree that wasn't bearing fruit. He cursed it, and it died.

Is there a lesson here?

[Timmy]

Thanks for the testimony!

You can try it on me, if you like. Not that I'm against God, but, well, read some of my posts and see if you think I may deserve some "judgment". E.g., have a look at my blog: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=25404. And my "news conference": http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=24936. Don't let my good nature and humor fool you. There's one poster (an admin, no less) that sees past it, when nobody else can: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=866387#post866387. I'm a mocker. Subtly (:lol) arguing against your faith. If anyone needs a prayer of vengeance against him, it's me! How 'bout it?


Bump for God's servant number 25. Or anyone else who wants to give it a shot. :D

[Timmy]

Of course, we'll need a well-defined objective, so we can all tell whether the prayer worked. I would prefer something nonfatal, if possible! How about a major case of hives? I haven't had any hives in I don't know how long. A sudden break-out would be pretty impressive.

And a time limit would be nice. How much time do you need? Is a week long enough? How about a month? That should give you enough time to get the prayer chain going, maybe schedule a prayer meeting (if you think it's needed), etc., and give God enough time to "answer" you!

[Timmy]

I don't think #25 or anyone else is going to take up the challenge. Maybe I'm not "warring against God's people" enough. Oh well, maybe it's for the best. I hate hives. :toofunny

[Walks_in_islam]

Your words are in direct contradiction to the teachings of Jesus outlined above.

The "example stories" such as you reference that are touted by apostolic preachers are usually made up. Such as the "Rick Mathes" story http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=26356 that made it all the way to Snopes. They never check out. There never are factual names or places attached to them. "One day a witch dropped by to curse me...." yeah. right. LOL......

When words that have no factual names or places attached fall out of the mouth of a teacher, any teacher, that teacher is known as a false prophet.

Your ranks are rife with such.

There is nothing to fear from those who either profit from the teachings of the book (aka church "leaders" today) nor from those who follow them. Like them, I doubt that you have a specific example to go with your fresh steaming smelly pile below.

Those among you with true power walk like Jesus, talk like Jesus, and act like Jesus. They do not talk like you or act like you say you act. False sense of power is not power at all.

A gift:

Who is wise and understanding among you? Show by your good life that your works are done with gentleness born of wisdom. But if you have bitter envy or selfish ambition in your hearts, do not be boastful and false to the truth. Such wisdom does not come down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, devilish. For where there is envy and selfish ambition, there will also be disorder and wickedness of every kind.

But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without a trace of partiality or hypocrisy. And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace for those who make peace.




I remember Bro TW Barnes telling me about a witch who came to put a curse on him. He prayed that whatever she put on him would be 7 times worse on her! She called him in the middle of the night begging for mercy! I have prayed judgment on people who were against God and it has always worked. I never wanted anyone dead but they have been held at bay and not able to hinder the work of the Kingdom! I love them- I just don't like them warring against God's people! Remember, we war NOT against flesh and blood but against powers and PRINCIPALITIES! It is usually a principality NOT a personality!

[Timmy]

Oh, man, it would be awesome to make it into Snopes! I can see it now:

Claim: Reprobate breaks out in hives, when Pentecostal prays for vengeance.

Status: True.

Example: [collected from online forum, January 2010]

etc. etc.

:D

[TJJJ]

Your words are in direct contradiction to the teachings of Jesus outlined above.

The "example stories" such as you reference that are touted by apostolic preachers are usually made up. Such as the "Rick Mathes" story http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=26356 that made it all the way to Snopes. They never check out. There never are factual names or places attached to them. "One day a witch dropped by to curse me...." yeah. right. LOL......

When words that have no factual names or places attached fall out of the mouth of a teacher, any teacher, that teacher is known as a false prophet.

Your ranks are rife with such.

There is nothing to fear from those who either profit from the teachings of the book (aka church "leaders" today) nor from those who follow them. Like them, I doubt that you have a specific example to go with your fresh steaming smelly pile below.

Those among you with true power walk like Jesus, talk like Jesus, and act like Jesus. They do not talk like you or act like you say you act. False sense of power is not power at all.

A gift:

Who is wise and understanding among you? Show by your good life that your works are done with gentleness born of wisdom. But if you have bitter envy or selfish ambition in your hearts, do not be boastful and false to the truth. Such wisdom does not come down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, devilish. For where there is envy and selfish ambition, there will also be disorder and wickedness of every kind.

But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without a trace of partiality or hypocrisy. And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace for those who make peace.

Walks in error,

go back under your rock!

There are always charalatans and fakers, mohammed was one of them.

clean out your own backyard first!

You ought not to be allowed on this forum as you are not apostolic!

[TJJJ]

Oh, man, it would be awesome to make it into Snopes! I can see it now:

Claim: Reprobate breaks out in hives, when Pentecostal prays for vengeance.

Status: True.

Example: [collected from online forum, January 2010]

etc. etc.

:D

How is them shingles Timmy?

I thinks you is Walks in Error!

Thats what I thinks!

[Timmy]

How is them shingles Timmy?

I thinks you is Walks in Error!

Thats what I thinks!

Oh, I'm sure I do walk in error, on some matters. (Don't we all?) :thumbsup

[TJJJ]

Oh, I'm sure I do walk in error, on some matters. (Don't we all?) :thumbsup

:ursofunny

[RevDWW]

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

[jfrog]

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If you loved Timmy you would pray for him to get the hives!

[RevDWW]

If you loved Timmy you would pray for him to get the hives!
I suppose we should pray for the Lord's best for Timmy......the best hives........:ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofu nny

[Walks_in_islam]

Those who follow the way of the Pharisee exclude all but the like-minded LOL.

Those who follow the way of the Pharisee with certainty do not follow the way of Jesus, are powerless, and not to be feared either.

Sez TJJJ: go back under your rock!

When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

Sez me: I am engaged in idle discussion only

Sez Jesus on Pharisees:

All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not
For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers
They love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, and all ye are brethren

They shut up the kingdom of heaven against men
They pay tithe and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith
They make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Better to walk in any shoes but the shoes of a pharisee!



Walks in error,

go back under your rock!

There are always charalatans and fakers, mohammed was one of them.

clean out your own backyard first!

You ought not to be allowed on this forum as you are not apostolic!

[Walks_in_islam]

Perhaps turn up the heat on #25? Who knows you'll be in the equivalent of the Snopes hall of fame?

Oh, man, it would be awesome to make it into Snopes! I can see it now:

Claim: Reprobate breaks out in hives, when Pentecostal prays for vengeance.

Status: True.

Example: [collected from online forum, January 2010]

etc. etc.

:D

[Timmy]

Perhaps turn up the heat on #25? Who knows you'll be in the equivalent of the Snopes hall of fame?

Yeah, at least if it turns out to be a "True", as I "saw". (The "False" ones aren't very notable.) Could be the first documented case of a prayer of vengeance being answered. (One of the reasons I requested nonfatal vengeance: so I would live to testify about it! :lol Trust me: if I do break out in hives, I will tell AFF all about it. :thumbsup)

[Timmy]

I suppose we should pray for the Lord's best for Timmy......the best hives........:ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofu nny

:toofunny

[Timmy]

Perhaps turn up the heat on #25? Who knows you'll be in the equivalent of the Snopes hall of fame?

Oh, #25 has been logging in (last visit, yesterday at 3:03 PM, according to his (her?) profile), but no posts since that testimony of how God always does what he (she?) asks (vengeance-wise, at least).

Hey, godsservant25, would you mind going into detail on some of that vengeance? Ever done hives, before? Any fatalities? Come on, testify!

[Timmy]

I remember Bro TW Barnes telling me about a witch who came to put a curse on him. He prayed that whatever she put on him would be 7 times worse on her! She called him in the middle of the night begging for mercy! I have prayed judgment on people who were against God and it has always worked. I never wanted anyone dead but they have been held at bay and not able to hinder the work of the Kingdom! I love them- I just don't like them warring against God's people! Remember, we war NOT against flesh and blood but against powers and PRINCIPALITIES! It is usually a principality NOT a personality!

I reread you post more carefully, and notice that you never wanted anyone dead, so that answers one of my questions. And, I don't suppose hives would stop anyone from warring against God's people. So, what was it? Were their hands affected somehow so they couldn't type? Were they struck mute? Put into a coma?

[Walks_in_islam]

OH i'm sure by sunday morning you'll range from some version of a self-satisfied "too late for the backslidden sinner on the deathbed" story to a "random witch called to curse me so i bound him" story (again a self-satisfied one where it is always the storyteller who did the binding LOL).

In the meantime my friend I wouldnt go out for benedryl just yet...

It appears that the "judgement warrier" has been struck dumb. I believe at times and through no prayers of men God simply and in His wisdom chooses to cork the pie-hole of those who are too mouthy in His name or on His behalf thus relieving the suffering of those around them. I would never wish a "judgement warrier" dead either BUT being corked would be pretty funny and I an unsure as to whether I could keep a straight face nor could I resist a moment or two of thanks next prayer time. These are bad thoughts though and I will work hard over the next day or two to purge them.



Yeah, at least if it turns out to be a "True", as I "saw". (The "False" ones aren't very notable.) Could be the first documented case of a prayer of vengeance being answered. (One of the reasons I requested nonfatal vengeance: so I would live to testify about it! :lol Trust me: if I do break out in hives, I will tell AFF all about it. :thumbsup)

[Timmy]

OH i'm sure by sunday morning you'll range from some version of a self-satisfied "too late for the backslidden sinner on the deathbed" story to a "random witch called to curse me so i bound him" story (again a self-satisfied one where it is always the storyteller who did the binding LOL).

In the meantime my friend I wouldnt go out for benedryl just yet...

It appears that the "judgement warrier" has been struck dumb. I believe at times and through no prayers of men God simply and in His wisdom chooses to cork the pie-hole of those who are too mouthy in His name or on His behalf thus relieving the suffering of those around them. I would never wish a "judgement warrier" dead either BUT being corked would be pretty funny and I an unsure as to whether I could keep a straight face nor could I resist a moment or two of thanks next prayer time. These are bad thoughts though and I will work hard over the next day or two to purge them.

Well, servants of God are pretty busy folks, these days. Maybe just doesn't have time to reply. (Let alone time to pray vengeance against me!) :D

[Walks_in_islam]

I heard mumbling earlier in the day. You sure you didn't mumble a "curse" over there under your breath and stuff? I am sure you were tempted?

Well, servants of God are pretty busy folks, these days. Maybe just doesn't have time to reply. (Let alone time to pray vengeance against me!) :D

[Timmy]

I heard mumbling earlier in the day. You sure you didn't mumble a "curse" over there under your breath and stuff? I am sure you were tempted?

It wasn't me! Talking to me, or to #25? :)

[Walks_in_islam]

Certainly not 25. 25 has been struck dumb. Idle speculation on the source only.....LOL

It wasn't me! Talking to me, or to #25? :)

[Timmy]

Certainly not 25. 25 has been struck dumb. Idle speculation on the source only.....LOL

He was logged on again last night. :heeheehee

[Walks_in_islam]

hm perhaps logged in but still dumb (not speaking I mean)

He was logged on again last night. :heeheehee

[ILG]

I think prayers of vengeance should be prayed very carefully. You can blow up a house much easier than you can build one.

[Timmy]

hm perhaps logged in but still dumb (not speaking I mean)

Yeah. Maybe someone prayed a prayer of vengeance on him/her! :toofunny

[Timmy]

I think prayers of vengeance should be prayed very carefully. You can blow up a house much easier than you can build one.

Yeah. If they work. I hope our friend godsservant25 is able to recover. ;)

[Timmy]

I've prayed and quoted "vengence" scriptures from Psalms before.

Did it work?

[Walks_in_islam]

He/she shouldnta told that witch story <shudder>. A witch coulda done it. Alternative 2: outlined above. Maybe God corked him/her all on His own for His own reasons. Most likely reason: mercy on those around him/her.

Yeah. Maybe someone prayed a prayer of vengeance on him/her! :toofunny

[RandyWayne]

Can one truly pray a prayer of vengeance against someone with long uncut hair? It seems like the two should cancel each other out.

[TJJJ]

He/she shouldnta told that witch story <shudder>. A witch coulda done it. Alternative 2: outlined above. Maybe God corked him/her all on His own for His own reasons. Most likely reason: mercy on those around him/her.

WII

Did you folks have any children that lived?:ursofunny

[John Atkinson]

Can one truly pray a prayer of vengeance against someone with long uncut hair? It seems like the two should cancel each other out.
Yep, holy magic hair imparts the "I'm rubber, you're glue" effect. Vengeance prayers get bounced right back at ya.

[Timmy]

Can one truly pray a prayer of vengeance against someone with long uncut hair? It seems like the two should cancel each other out.

I'm sure God has to weigh many factors and reach the right decision on which prayers to answer (vengeance prayers or otherwise)! :thumbsup

[Timmy]

He/she shouldnta told that witch story <shudder>. A witch coulda done it. Alternative 2: outlined above. Maybe God corked him/her all on His own for His own reasons. Most likely reason: mercy on those around him/her.

:toofunny

[StillStanding]

Note he did it face to face not on an Public forum.......:winkgrin
Maybe if they had internet forums back in the day! He also didn't talk on the phone, watch TV, drive a car, or micro-wave a meal! :D

[John Atkinson]

I'm sure God has to weigh many factors and reach the right decision on which prayers to answer (vengeance prayers or otherwise)! :thumbsup
Yeah. I asked him for a million bucks once, he's been thinkin about it for 20 years....

[Timmy]

Yeah. I asked him for a million bucks once, he's been thinkin about it for 20 years....

:lol

[Walks_in_islam]

Do you wander from room to room giggling and mumbling because you have a birth defect or did you have an accident?

WII

Did you folks have any children that lived?:ursofunny

[Walks_in_islam]

LOL


Yeah. I asked him for a million bucks once, he's been thinkin about it for 20 years....

[RandyWayne]

Yep, holy magic hair imparts the "I'm rubber, you're glue" effect. Vengeance prayers get bounced right back at ya.

There is something almost Harry Potterish about such a confrontation.

[Walks_in_islam]

Don't give #25 any ideas. He/she is vengeful enough. Silence can be a sign of plotting after all. Just sayin'

I think prayers of vengeance should be prayed very carefully. You can blow up a house much easier than you can build one.

[TJJJ]

Don't give #25 any ideas. He/she is vengeful enough. Silence can be a sign of plotting after all. Just sayin'

:nahnah




I am still wondering why you are even hanging around in your little alter/ego.

[Walks_in_islam]

(laughing) over here we are just having fun. On the "banned" thread I admit to "goading". Only because I am interested in the basis for tithing requirements and several times I have seen the issue come up and when questioned ministers get truly upset about it. Jason is a pretty straight shooting guy and should be entitled to his discussion.

:nahnah




I am still wondering why you are even hanging around in your little alter/ego.

[noeticknight]

I'm sure God has to weigh many factors and reach the right decision on which prayers to answer (vengeance prayers or otherwise)! :thumbsup

Are you implying this scenario Timmy...?


http://www.mrdeity.com/s1ep4.html

[Timmy]

Are you implying this scenario Timmy...?


http://www.mrdeity.com/s1ep4.html

:lol Something like that. ;) (Love Mr D, btw! :D)

[Timmy]

Are you implying this scenario Timmy...?


http://www.mrdeity.com/s1ep4.html

And then there's the classic "Bruce Almighty" scene. :D

*spoiler ahead*
*spoiler ahead*
*spoiler ahead*
*spoiler ahead*



Bruce is temporarily given the job of being God for a while. The prayers are driving him crazy (and they're just from the New York area!), until he devises an ingenious way of handling them: a computer! Prayers are sent to the email in-box. Still, there are so many of them, he's overwhelmed. Finally, he just does an all-inbox answer: YES! Well, this wreaks havoc, let me tell you! Thousands of people have to share the lottery jackpot, e.g. :lol

God's job isn't easy! :toofunny

[Timmy]

And back to the thread topic, any other testimonies? Anyone else want to take a stab at me? (Again, a nonfatal vengeance, please. I can't stress that enough! ;))

[TJJJ]

And back to the thread topic, any other testimonies? Anyone else want to take a stab at me? (Again, a nonfatal vengeance, please. I can't stress that enough! ;))

Here goes a bad one!!


MAY ALL YOUR GRANDBABIES BE BORNED NEKKID.....

One of Elder Westburg's favorite curses.

[RevDWW]

And back to the thread topic, any other testimonies? Anyone else want to take a stab at me? (Again, a nonfatal vengeance, please. I can't stress that enough! ;))

Does anyone here care that much either way about you????:ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny

Years ago I worked with a guy wiha Spirit filled background that was at least a borderline reporbate. He was nice and friendly to me, yet he was very crude and nasty to others at times. I got a burden for him and wanted to see his live turn around. Early one morning around 2 or 3 o'clock I was awaken with a sense I needed to pray for him. As I prayed for God's mercay and grace I also prayed that if I had to be awake to pray for him the least you could do God is to wake him up also. Next day at work as I talked with him I asked if he wake up during the night. He told me he had and I asked what time. It was during the time I was praying for him. I told him that I had prayed for him and what I had prayed. I asked if what he did and he told me he went to the kitchen and ate something and then went back to bed. We both laughed.

A week later it happened again and I prayed the same thing. This time when I got to work he asked me if I had prayed for him again and I said yes. He said he was awakened again and for me to quit that. I told him if I had to be up praying for him he needed to be awake as well........

Prayer works. :hanky

[Timmy]

Here goes a bad one!!


MAY ALL YOUR GRANDBABIES BE BORNED NEKKID.....

One of Elder Westburg's favorite curses.

:ursofunny:ursofunny

[RevDWW]

Here goes a bad one!!


MAY ALL YOUR GRANDBABIES BE BORNED NEKKID.....

One of Elder Westburg's favorite curses.
Of course it might not be a curse because every baby born of women that eat bananas are born naked.

[Timmy]

Does anyone here care that much either way about you????:ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny

Years ago I worked with a guy wiha Spirit filled background that was at least a borderline reporbate. He was nice and friendly to me, yet he was very crude and nasty to others at times. I got a burden for him and wanted to see his live turn around. Early one morning around 2 or 3 o'clock I was awaken with a sense I needed to pray for him. As I prayed for God's mercay and grace I also prayed that if I had to be awake to pray for him the least you could do God is to wake him up also. Next day at work as I talked with him I asked if he wake up during the night. He told me he had and I asked what time. It was during the time I was praying for him. I told him that I had prayed for him and what I had prayed. I asked if what he did and he told me he went to the kitchen and ate something and then went back to bed. We both laughed.

A week later it happened again and I prayed the same thing. This time when I got to work he asked me if I had prayed for him again and I said yes. He said he was awakened again and for me to quit that. I told him if I had to be up praying for him he needed to be awake as well........

Prayer works. :hanky

Heyyyyyyy, did you pray for me last night? :foottap

[RevDWW]

Heyyyyyyy, did you pray for me last night? :foottap

Not last night.................:evilglee

[Timmy]

Not last night.................:evilglee

Then who did?!?!

(J/K. I slept like a log, last night! :lol)

[Timmy]

You will all be happy to know that godsservant25 is alive and well, and able to type. He's been busy, is all. :)

[Timmy]

Slept well again, last night. Doesn't anyone care? :lol

[TJJJ]

Well,

Ya'know, my curse takes a little longer to work than just one night! Are your kids even old enough to give you grandkids yet?

[Timmy]

Well,

Ya'know, my curse takes a little longer to work than just one night! Are your kids even old enough to give you grandkids yet?

:lol

Actually yes, they range from 19 to (gulp) 30 (how did that happen??). No grands so far, but I'll let you know if it worked, if and when! :lol

[TJJJ]

Well well!

This might be even quicker than we think!


Bwahahahahaha

This week, one of your kids is going to tell you that you are going to be a grandfather, (unless they don't), and.... curse of curse.... all your grandkids SHALL be borned NEKKID!!!!

[RevDWW]

Slept well again, last night. Doesn't anyone care? :lol
Maybe poeple are praying you don't wake up...:foottap....during the night that is.........:ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny

[Timmy]

Maybe poeple are praying you don't wake up...:foottap....during the night that is.........:ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny

:toofunny

[Timmy]

I just remembered, I've been cursed before! On a youtube discussion thread, someone told me I will be "silenced". That was at least a year ago, I think, but I'm still wising off. Oh well. I suppose it'll be in God's time! :lol

[Timmy]

I've been sneezing for a couple of days, now. Who did it?! :foottap

[Timmy]

I've been sneezing for a couple of days, now. Who did it?! :foottap

OK, the sneezing is done. What's next? Hiccups? :)

[Timmy]

Hey! If somebody thinks this snow is "vengeance", think again! I'm loving it! :D

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee225/arraywie/DSC_4509.jpg
The view off our back deck.

Supposed to keep going till 1 AM! I'll post more. (But maybe in a different thread. :heeheehee)

[Timmy]

Hey! If somebody thinks this snow is "vengeance", think again! I'm loving it! :D

. . .)

What's next? Sunny, 53°F, 10 mph wind, 0% chance of precipitation? Bring it on! I can take whatever you can dish out!

:toofunny

[Jeffrey]

Thanks for the testimony!

You can try it on me, if you like. Not that I'm against God, but, well, read some of my posts and see if you think I may deserve some "judgment". E.g., have a look at my blog: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=25404. And my "news conference": http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=24936. Don't let my good nature and humor fool you. There's one poster (an admin, no less) that sees past it, when nobody else can: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=866387#post866387. I'm a mocker. Subtly (:lol) arguing against your faith. If anyone needs a prayer of vengeance against him, it's me! How 'bout it?

*rolls eyes*

:blah

Does the sarcasm and cyncism ever get old for you? Life must really be wretched like that.

[Timmy]

*rolls eyes*

:blah

Does the sarcasm and cyncism ever get old for you? Life must really be wretched like that.

Life is great, actually. :lol

[Jeffrey]

God is not manipulated by us. It's nonsense to view prayer as an amulet of magic.

David's prayer break the conventional mold all of us maintain that we have to be tidy and neat before God at all times. He exposed his heart. He was fearful. He was worried. In those days, God's kingdom was physical and national. When Israel won a war, it was God's victory. The sword was the way of the world, by the way. God protected His people and didn't just allow them all to perish from the earth.

We live in a New Covenant, and one that transcends national boundary lines and cultural groups. It's the blood of Jesus that makes us different. We are a Spirit family. Our weapons and battle are spiritual, looking on to those on the battlefied as a fellow traveler, with compassion and love.

So the Psalm can be seen in two ways (either/or or both/and):
1) Raw emotions of a man in prayer before God
2) A petition in line with the way of God's people in his time

I wouldn't see it as a spell.

But Timmy, neither do I consider it a polite thing to mock another's faith in God so disgustingly. If you don't understand the passage, then say so -- instead of using it as another springboard for your cynicism.

[Timmy]

God is not manipulated by us. It's nonsense to view prayer as an amulet of magic.

David's prayer break the conventional mold all of us maintain that we have to be tidy and neat before God at all times. He exposed his heart. He was fearful. He was worried. In those days, God's kingdom was physical and national. When Israel won a war, it was God's victory. The sword was the way of the world, by the way. God protected His people and didn't just allow them all to perish from the earth.

We live in a New Covenant, and one that transcends national boundary lines and cultural groups. It's the blood of Jesus that makes us different. We are a Spirit family. Our weapons and battle are spiritual, looking on to those on the battlefied as a fellow traveler, with compassion and love.

So the Psalm can be seen in two ways (either/or or both/and):
1) Raw emotions of a man in prayer before God
2) A petition in line with the way of God's people in his time

I wouldn't see it as a spell.

But Timmy, neither do I consider it a polite thing to mock another's faith in God so disgustingly. If you don't understand the passage, then say so -- instead of using it as another springboard for your cynicism.

I wasn't mocking anyone's faith in God. I was poking fun at godservant25's claim: "I have prayed judgment on people who were against God and it has always worked." Don't you think I'd be a pretty good target for those prayers?

[Timmy]

God is not manipulated by us.

What do you mean by that? Are prayers of vengeance attempts to manipulate God? If so, what about prayers for other things, like healing?

It's nonsense to view prayer as an amulet of magic.

Is godsservant25's use of prayer "nonsense"?

[Timmy]

It's nonsense to view prayer as an amulet of magic.

And another thing! You may not like the term "magic" (or "amulet"), but isn't the intent of prayer (of the type that asks God to do things) to make things happen that would not otherwise happen, and in particular, things that are contrary to the normal laws of nature? I.e., miracles? Don't call it magic, if you don't want to, but it is, in effect, the very same result.

[Timmy]

BTW, this isn't the first time someone has backed away when their bluff (IMO) was called.

[Godsdrummer]

I only read the last two pages but I have to comment on this line of thought,

"I have prayed judgment on people who were against God and it has always worked."

From my point of view this breaks at least two of the teachings of Jesus. Judge not least ye be judged. Matt 7:1 And turn the other check. Matt 5:39 How some of us can call ourselves Christian is beyond me.

If you have prayed judgement on some one and it works you better ask yourself who your praying to. My understanding of the use of prayer is to comune with God not petition him for our wants and needs.

As one should note in the following verses our prayers are to be between ourselves and God, Verse 6, We are not to be asking for things in this life, verse 7, Other than our daily need (our daily bread) verse 11. So what is our prayers to be? To review our own life and our trespases verse 12 and 13, and to give God honour and Glory and pray his kingdom reign. verses 9, 10 and 13.

Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Mat 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

[Timmy]

What do you mean by that? Are prayers of vengeance attempts to manipulate God? If so, what about prayers for other things, like healing?



Is godsservant25's use of prayer "nonsense"?

:bump

[Godsdrummer]

:bump

Timmy
my understanding is that our prayers are to be dialoge with God not patition sesions on what we want from him, which is what they seem to have become. I have a lot of thoughts on where and how prayers and the way things are done in church seem backwards.
Maybe someone can give me some scripture on where we get some of these traditions.
Prayer request: Jesus said "take no thought for tomorow... seek ye first the kingdom of heaven and all these things will be added..."

Church leaders calling for the sick to come to the front to be prayed for:
Peter I think said " if there be any sick let them call for the elders of the church" hm elders plural what a concept, that way no one can be called a healer.

Pastors over a individual body as sole leader: Paul say's "God gave some to be..." and the list is plural again. We are like Isreal of the OT we want a king (one man) to rule us then we don't have to have the close relationship to God. instead of God useing multiple leaders where there can be one or two giving a message and two or three judging as to whether it is of God or not. I Corithians 14:29.

So I have to agree with you Timmy prayer is not or should not be concidered a magic spell as some use it.

[Timmy]

You're probably right about many traditions being quite different from the early church, and having little or no basis in scripture. But still, many scriptures do support asking God to do things for you, and that He actually will do things for you. Yet there is a big difference between the theory and practice -- not everything you ask for in Jesus' name will be done. (It's funny when people point out to me how ridiculous it would be to expect God to do everything you ask Him to. But it's me being ridiculous, not John 11:22, which says exactly that. :hmmm)

Isaiah 53:5
Matthew 21:22
John 11:22
John 14:13
John 15:16
John 16:23-24
James 5:14-16
1 Peter 2:24
1 John 5:14-15

To name a few. ;)

[Godsdrummer]

You're probably right about many traditions being quite different from the early church, and having little or no basis in scripture. But still, many scriptures do support asking God to do things for you, and that He actually will do things for you. Yet there is a big difference between the theory and practice -- not everything you ask for in Jesus' name will be done. (It's funny when people point out to me how ridiculous it would be to expect God to do everything you ask Him to. But it's me being ridiculous, not John 11:22, which says exactly that. :hmmm)

Isaiah 53:5
Matthew 21:22
John 11:22
John 14:13
John 15:16
John 16:23-24
James 5:14-16
1 Peter 2:24
1 John 5:14-15

To name a few. ;)

While you are right to some degree, we must put all the teachings of christ to understand just what he means.

Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

What do we pray for? That seem to not be anwered, things for our own recognition? Does God get the glory when a faith healer stands on a platform and prays for healings? Just the fact he is the one on a platform takes away from God. Healings are not for mans recognition for that matter miricles of any kind are not for mans recognition. James tells us that we don't recive the answer for our prayers because we ask of our own lust. (things we want or think we need to make our life better).

As Jesus said take no thought for the material things of life. God know what we need, this life is but a vapor, but eternal life is where we need to center our eyes on.

Three years ago my dear mother inlaw died of cancer. Did God not answer our prayer for her healing? We are only promised 75 years on this earth. Some live longer some less. Although her last days were painful we were blessed to have her in our lives for the time she was with us. And her last days were a blessing both to her and to us. We spent that last Christmas eve with her all her children and grandkids and great grandkids got to say goodbye to her and thank God for the wonderful times we had during her life. She passed less than a week later.

Could God have healed her? Yes why didn't he just to apease us? Would it have been any easier to let her go a year, two years later? We all die in this life but it is the life to come we look to not this life.

There are time even today when we feel her spirit and love wrap us up when we are down.

What bothers me the most is (faith healers) that cause the discouragement of dear children of God by telling them they did not get their healing because they did not have enough faith. Basicly they are trying to save face of their own lack of being in the will of God. The pay is too good and they cant afford to or are to lazy to get a real job. Even Paul supported himself making tents.

[Timmy]

While you are right to some degree, we must put all the teachings of christ to understand just what he means.

Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

What do we pray for? That seem to not be anwered, things for our own recognition? Does God get the glory when a faith healer stands on a platform and prays for healings? Just the fact he is the one on a platform takes away from God. Healings are not for mans recognition for that matter miricles of any kind are not for mans recognition. James tells us that we don't recive the answer for our prayers because we ask of our own lust. (things we want or think we need to make our life better).

As Jesus said take no thought for the material things of life. God know what we need, this life is but a vapor, but eternal life is where we need to center our eyes on.

Three years ago my dear mother inlaw died of cancer. Did God not answer our prayer for her healing? We are only promised 75 years on this earth. Some live longer some less. Although her last days were painful we were blessed to have her in our lives for the time she was with us. And her last days were a blessing both to her and to us. We spent that last Christmas eve with her all her children and grandkids and great grandkids got to say goodbye to her and thank God for the wonderful times we had during her life. She passed less than a week later.

Could God have healed her? Yes why didn't he just to apease us? Would it have been any easier to let her go a year, two years later? We all die in this life but it is the life to come we look to not this life.

There are time even today when we feel her spirit and love wrap us up when we are down.

What bothers me the most is (faith healers) that cause the discouragement of dear children of God by telling them they did not get their healing because they did not have enough faith. Basicly they are trying to save face of their own lack of being in the will of God. The pay is too good and they cant afford to or are to lazy to get a real job. Even Paul supported himself making tents.

If we are promised 75 years, but some don't get 75 years, how is that promise not a broken one?

[tv1a]

One of my favorite passages is when David prayed his enemies would have stillborn children. Although more graphic. It shows he had a mean streak.

[Godsdrummer]

If we are promised 75 years, but some don't get 75 years, how is that promise not a broken one?

That is the average if one live to be 75 be thankful it is by no means a promise that we are garented 75 yrs.

[Timmy]

That is the average if one live to be 75 be thankful it is by no means a promise that we are garented 75 yrs.

You said it, not me! ;)

"We are only promised 75 years on this earth."

[Godsdrummer]

You said it, not me! ;)

"We are only promised 75 years on this earth."

I did didn't I? LOL:smack

I do that sometimes things come out wrong oh well.

[Timmy]

I did didn't I? LOL:smack

I do that sometimes things come out wrong oh well.

:thumbsup

[Timmy]

Oh, now this is just dirty pool. I'm out of town, visiting my folks. And somebody has smitten me with allergies.

:lol

[Timmy]

Oh, now this is just dirty pool. I'm out of town, visiting my folks. And somebody has smitten me with allergies.

:lol

Was it you, godsservant25?

[Falla39]

Timmy
my understanding is that our prayers are to be dialoge with God not patition sesions on what we want from him, which is what they seem to have become. I have a lot of thoughts on where and how prayers and the way things are done in church seem backwards.
Maybe someone can give me some scripture on where we get some of these traditions.
Prayer request: Jesus said "take no thought for tomorow... seek ye first the kingdom of heaven and all these things will be added..."

Church leaders calling for the sick to come to the front to be prayed for:
Peter I think said " if there be any sick let them call for the elders of the church" hm elders plural what a concept, that way no one can be called a healer.

Pastors over a individual body as sole leader: Paul say's "God gave some to be..." and the list is plural again. We are like Isreal of the OT we want a king (one man) to rule us then we don't have to have the close relationship to God. instead of God useing multiple leaders where there can be one or two giving a message and two or three judging as to whether it is of God or not. I Corithians 14:29.

So I have to agree with you Timmy prayer is not or should not be concidered a magic spell as some use it.

James 5:14

[Falla39]

While you are right to some degree, we must put all the teachings of christ to understand just what he means.

Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

What do we pray for? That seem to not be anwered, things for our own recognition? Does God get the glory when a faith healer stands on a platform and prays for healings? Just the fact he is the one on a platform takes away from God. Healings are not for mans recognition for that matter miricles of any kind are not for mans recognition. James tells us that we don't recive the answer for our prayers because we ask of our own lust. (things we want or think we need to make our life better).

As Jesus said take no thought for the material things of life. God know what we need, this life is but a vapor, but eternal life is where we need to center our eyes on.

Three years ago my dear mother inlaw died of cancer. Did God not answer our prayer for her healing? We are only promised 75 years on this earth. Some live longer some less. Although her last days were painful we were blessed to have her in our lives for the time she was with us. And her last days were a blessing both to her and to us. We spent that last Christmas eve with her all her children and grandkids and great grandkids got to say goodbye to her and thank God for the wonderful times we had during her life. She passed less than a week later.

Could God have healed her? Yes why didn't he just to apease us? Would it have been any easier to let her go a year, two years later? We all die in this life but it is the life to come we look to not this life.

There are time even today when we feel her spirit and love wrap us up when we are down.

What bothers me the most is (faith healers) that cause the discouragement of dear children of God by telling them they did not get their healing because they did not have enough faith. Basicly they are trying to save face of their own lack of being in the will of God. The pay is too good and they cant afford to or are to lazy to get a real job. Even Paul supported himself making tents.

Psalms 90:10 KJV

The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Psalms 90:10 NIV

The length of our days is seventy years--or eighty, if we have the strength; yet their span is but trouble and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away.

[mfblume]

Back to the original issue, vengeful prayers are called IMPRECATORY PRAYERS. There seems to be a place for them at times. Peter commanded death upon Ananias and Sapphira. But Jesus warned one must be keenly sensitive to God's will in such instances when James and John wanted fire to fall on some people.

[Timmy]

Back to the original issue, vengeful prayers are called IMPRECATORY PRAYERS. There seems to be a place for them at times. Peter commanded death upon Ananias and Sapphira. But Jesus warned one must be keenly sensitive to God's will in such instances when James and John wanted fire to fall on some people.

It's probably the same as any type of prayer, isn't it? Ask according to His will, and He'll do it. :hmmm

[mfblume]

It's probably the same as any type of prayer, isn't it? Ask according to His will, and He'll do it. :hmmm

Not if Jesus warned them.

[Timmy]

Not if Jesus warned them.

Not following, sorry.

[mfblume]

Not following, sorry.

I was referring to this statement I made:

But Jesus warned one must be keenly sensitive to God's will in such instances when James and John wanted fire to fall on some people.

IOW, if Jesus told James and John, in warning, to be careful of their spirits, when they noted about calling fire down from heaven on people, then that indicates they could perhaps do this, but outside of God's will. So it is not part of whether something is His will so it can be done. IOW, why warn them against it if God will simply not do it if they speak it? I am thinking God may honour it and judge the believer harshly for doing it out of line.

[Timmy]

I was referring to this statement I made:



IOW, if Jesus told James and John, in warning, to be careful of their spirits, when they noted about calling fire down from heaven on people, then that indicates they could perhaps do this, but outside of God's will. So it is not part of whether something is His will so it can be done. IOW, why warn them against it if God will simply not do it if they speak it? I am thinking God may honour it and judge the believer harshly for doing it out of line.

And IMO, He won't! :thumbsup

[Jeffrey]

Outside of exceptional situations involving prophets or apostles (foundational offices to the church), I don't see a precedent for Jesus Followers to pray vengeful prayers. Even the abused "heaping coals" is used in ignorance, and not the reality of Paul's entire context of Love.

At the hugest atrocity of mankind, crucifying the Son of God, Jesus' words should be ours, "Father, forgive them.."

[mfblume]

And IMO, He won't! :thumbsup

Why would you think Jesus warned them about it if it cannot be done anyway?

[Timmy]

Why would you think Jesus warned them about it if it cannot be done anyway?

Come on. You know me. What I really think is that Jesus really didn't need to give such a warning (it has just as much bearing on real life as His promise that whatever you would ask would be done for you), or He was misquoted. Pray whatever horrible things down on anyone you like. Lightning on Obama, boils on me, whatever. They won't happen.

It's reality.

[Timmy]

Come on. You know me. What I really think is that Jesus really didn't need to give such a warning (it has just as much bearing on real life as His promise that whatever you would ask would be done for you), or He was misquoted. Pray whatever horrible things down on anyone you like. Lightning on Obama, boils on me, whatever. They won't happen.

It's reality.

OK, I should offer a less cynical/skeptical/agnostic answer. :)

Perhaps Jesus was simply giving advice about their attitude. He was teaching them a lesson in love and forgiveness, and nothing more. He (perhaps, in my little theory) knew their prayers wouldn't really be answered, but He also knew that it was doing them no good to harbor such ill feelings toward their enemies. This is consistent with many of Jesus' other teachings.