Do you tithe on loans?

[jediwill83]

Since you pay loans back would you be required to tithe on them?

[Michael Phelps]

Since you pay loans back would you be required to tithe on them?

Do you tithe on the money you use to pay the loan back? If so, technically, you wouldn't need to tithe on the loan, itself.

[Jack Shephard]

Just curious, why would you? It is not income that you earned it is something given to you under a set of criteria and you return the money with intrest. That is bad enough. One of the goals of every believer should be to get to the place where loans are something you give not something you take. I try and do cash for everything. I have one loan outstanding, my home note that is it. Beyond that it is cash. Don't be confused here I live in AZ and make barley over 30k for my household income. My home note is on my condo, but do to family growth I acutally rent a home and rent out my condo. I have little debt over all. It is certainly tough not making much but I am lucky to not have much debt of large proportions.

[Cindy]

No.

[MissBrattified]

No. What is there to tithe on? It isn't increase.

[Baron1710]

Since you pay loans back would you be required to tithe on them?

If the bank loans you $300,000 to buy a house would you think you should pay a tithe on that?

[jediwill83]

I dunno...I have just heard teaching on both ends of the spectrum on tithing.Just trying to find where I stand on it I guess.I've heard some preach it as heaven or hell....some as just something extra that mature believers do and then some have said that it is not supposed to be done at all.But the question I asked was just one thought of recently.I dont like dealing with credit either...I have just had some unexpected problems come up....yes yes I know...should have had a emergency fund.*Sighs*

[MissBrattified]

I dunno...I have just heard teaching on both ends of the spectrum on tithing.Just trying to find where I stand on it I guess.I've heard some preach it as heaven or hell....some as just something extra that mature believers do and then some have said that it is not supposed to be done at all.But the question I asked was just one thought of recently.I dont like dealing with credit either...I have just had some unexpected problems come up....yes yes I know...should have had a emergency fund.*Sighs*

There would be no reason whatsoever to pay on a loan--it isn't your money. It's the bank's money.

If you're at a restaurant, and you forget your wallet--your friend loans you the money to pay your bill...do you pay tithes on the $10 before you pay it back???? That doesn't even make sense to me. :coffee2

[jediwill83]

ok ok....Im a weirdo ok?lol.

[gloryseeker]

Just curious, why would you? It is not income that you earned it is something given to you under a set of criteria and you return the money with intrest. That is bad enough. One of the goals of every believer should be to get to the place where loans are something you give not something you take. I try and do cash for everything. I have one loan outstanding, my home note that is it. Beyond that it is cash. Don't be confused here I live in AZ and make barley over 30k for my household income. My home note is on my condo, but do to family growth I acutally rent a home and rent out my condo. I have little debt over all. It is certainly tough not making much but I am lucky to not have much debt of large proportions.

I agree with you, but I would add a little different verbiage. The reason you don't pay tithe on a loan is because the Bible says that we tithe on our "increase" and a loan is not increase.

P.S. If you want to pay that condo off quickly contact me. I have prepaid my mortgage note 17 months since February without taking any money out of my household budget or using any of my own money!

[A.W. Bowman]

Just dropped by to say “hi”, and look at what I found!

Interesting topic, one that keeps coming up from time to time. To tithe or not to tithe, that is the question, and if one is to tithe, how much, how often, and on what? Well, here are the eight statutes on tithing.

Mitzvot:

202. Not to eat untithed fruits Lev. 22:15
249. To separate the tithe for the poor Deut. 14:28
252. To set aside Terumah Gedolah (tithe for the Kohen) Deut. 18:4
253. The Levite must set aside a tenth of his tithe Num. 18:26
261. To set aside the second tithe (Ma'aser Sheni) Deut. 14:22
269. To read the confession of tithes every fourth and seventh year Deut. 26:13
429. Separate the tithe from animals Lev. 27:32
430. Not to redeem the tithe Lev. 27:33

Reference to Malachi 3:10, “Bring ye all the tithes [reference the above list] into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. {pour...: Heb. empty out}” [Also note the purpose for the tithes in this passage']

So, how many of these mitzvot have you preached (or heard taught) in your congregations lately? Not too many I would warrant. Obvious question: Why not?

Compare with Eph 1:3, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: {places: or, things}”

Are we then to exchange our new covenant promises for the old? You are free to, if you wish. Me? I’ll pass, thank you.

If one is to be a teacher of the law, one must first learn to rightly divide the word of truth and teach the entire Law as God intended. (1Ti 1:7; 2Ti 2:15) God’s word is not a buffet where one may freely pick and choose among a list of options. No one can claim that the Law of God is finished, done away with, abolished, set aside, made null and void, or to be of no effect in a Christian’s life, and still appeal to that same law in order to impose compliance to some religious ordinance decreed by the assembly leadership. Jesus had a term or two for those kinds of spiritual leaders.

Obvious question: Do I believe in tithing?
Answer: Yes. When I am able, that is my benchmark for minimum giving.

Next obvious question: Do I believe that The Law still exists and has a legitimate role to play in a Christian’s life?
Answer: Yes. If one uses the law in a lawful manner.

Next obvious question: Don’t the books of Romans and Galatians exclude the application of The Law in a Christian’s life?
Answer No. Not from the Hebraic perspective of the authors or their intended readers.

Last question: Am I going to explain all of this, perhaps through a Bible study?
Answer: Yes, but not right now and most likely not here. I am currently devoting my time to developing a major study on Mat 5-7, from a Hebraic point of view for a Messianic focused group. There will be a continuation study, or perhaps incorporated with the study in Matthew, on the lawful application (use) of The Law in a believer's life.

I'll return when I can. Meanwhile, I can still be reached via email for those interested in these studies.

Shalom Aleichem

[jediwill83]

I hear some say tithe on increase...then some say tithe on firstfruits.I've heard people cite Abrahams giving of the tenth to Melchezidek as an example of tithing but Abraham gave the spoils back to who it had been taken from in the first place and DIDNT take it as an increase......

[Jack Shephard]

I hear some say tithe on increase...then some say tithe on firstfruits.I've heard people cite Abrahams giving of the tenth to Melchezidek as an example of tithing but Abraham gave the spoils back to who it had been taken from in the first place and DIDNT take it as an increase......

If you have been around different churches in this movement the tithe topic is as different as the standards topic from church to church. Some say it is heaven and hell some don't. I follow the first fruits mentality, but I don't think it is heaven and hell. I think it is more getting blessed more and not receiving as much blessing. Having said that I do believe tithe is more than money as well. If I give time to the church I will often times receive more blessings from it. If I give money in tithe and offerings often times I receive financial blessings back to me. I can be financially blessed with out giving, but I give not so I can get blessed but to actually be a blessing. It is funny how God turns it around back to ya.

[DividedThigh]

i tithe on increase, wages etc, loan proceeds dont fallinto that category, dt

[gloryseeker]

Just dropped by to say “hi”, and look at what I found!

Interesting topic, one that keeps coming up from time to time. To tithe or not to tithe, that is the question, and if one is to tithe, how much, how often, and on what? Well, here are the eight statutes on tithing.

Mitzvot:

202. Not to eat untithed fruits Lev. 22:15
249. To separate the tithe for the poor Deut. 14:28
252. To set aside Terumah Gedolah (tithe for the Kohen) Deut. 18:4
253. The Levite must set aside a tenth of his tithe Num. 18:26
261. To set aside the second tithe (Ma'aser Sheni) Deut. 14:22
269. To read the confession of tithes every fourth and seventh year Deut. 26:13
429. Separate the tithe from animals Lev. 27:32
430. Not to redeem the tithe Lev. 27:33

Reference to Malachi 3:10, “Bring ye all the tithes [reference the above list] into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. {pour...: Heb. empty out}” [Also note the purpose for the tithes in this passage']

So, how many of these mitzvot have you preached (or heard taught) in your congregations lately? Not too many I would warrant. Obvious question: Why not?

Compare with Eph 1:3, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: {places: or, things}”

Are we then to exchange our new covenant promises for the old? You are free to, if you wish. Me? I’ll pass, thank you.

If one is to be a teacher of the law, one must first learn to rightly divide the word of truth and teach the entire Law as God intended. (1Ti 1:7; 2Ti 2:15) God’s word is not a buffet where one may freely pick and choose among a list of options. No one can claim that the Law of God is finished, done away with, abolished, set aside, made null and void, or to be of no effect in a Christian’s life, and still appeal to that same law in order to impose compliance to some religious ordinance decreed by the assembly leadership. Jesus had a term or two for those kinds of spiritual leaders.

Obvious question: Do I believe in tithing?
Answer: Yes. When I am able, that is my benchmark for minimum giving.

Next obvious question: Do I believe that The Law still exists and has a legitimate role to play in a Christian’s life?
Answer: Yes. If one uses the law in a lawful manner.

Next obvious question: Don’t the books of Romans and Galatians exclude the application of The Law in a Christian’s life?
Answer No. Not from the Hebraic perspective of the authors or their intended readers.

Last question: Am I going to explain all of this, perhaps through a Bible study?
Answer: Yes, but not right now and most likely not here. I am currently devoting my time to developing a major study on Mat 5-7, from a Hebraic point of view for a Messianic focused group. There will be a continuation study, or perhaps incorporated with the study in Matthew, on the lawful application (use) of The Law in a believer's life.

I'll return when I can. Meanwhile, I can still be reached via email for those interested in these studies.

Shalom Aleichem

It sounds to me like you have created a convenient theology that works around what you want.

If you study your Old Testament, which you seem to be a good student of judging by your other posts the tithe preceded the law by MANY years. You can even take the principle of tithing all the way back to the garden when the Lord set aside a tree and established it has His and that it should not be eaten from.

Obviously we see Adam as a tither, but Jacob also declared that he would tithe of a tenth of all his increase after the experience termed as "Jacob's Ladder." As you are well aware these all pre-date the law by a long shot.

To me the most interesting of your statements is the following:

Obvious question: Do I believe in tithing?
Answer: Yes. When I am able, that is my benchmark for minimum giving.

By this statement it would be easy to assume that there are times that you are not able. When you are "not able" would be times when the up keep of your carnal life exceeds the ability to fund or honor God's Word. I think in biblical terms this is the system of mammon:

Luke 16:13
13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. (KJV)

I would venture to say that those who are of the same mindset as you have to ask their money each week if they can give into the Kingdom. Personally I have found (according to Matt 6:33) if I put God first He sees to it that I always have enough. Therefore, I never ask my money what I can do, I tell my money where it is going. Subsequently, I always have more than enough.

Anyway, I hope you have enough for God in a couple of days!

[jediwill83]

If you look at it Jacobs tithes were hardly without conditions.He names several things he wanted BEFORE he tithed.....not really the best example id want to use for the tithe no matter what argument.Look...not here to stir the pot....so please dont think that.

[gloryseeker]

If you look at it Jacobs tithes were hardly without conditions.He names several things he wanted BEFORE he tithed.....not really the best example id want to use for the tithe no matter what argument.Look...not here to stir the pot....so please dont think that.

You make an interesting point here, one that many have never noticed before, but consider this...where did those conditions come from?

If you will do a line by line study of what was told him during his vision and then a line by line study what his condition were, you will find he added some conditions beyond what was told him.

Now, consider the angels ascending and descending on this ladder. What were they doing? Maybe spiritual aerobics, but I doubt it. Could it be, the things that were added was the provision of heaven these ministering spirits were sent to provide? Maybe the conditions were actually part of the vision and what he is saying is, "if God will do this for me then I will bring a tenth to Him."

God's promises always precedes our actions.

Gen 28:20-21
20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:

[Cindy]

Did Cain and Abel tithe?

[gloryseeker]

Did Cain and Abel tithe?

From biblical wording it does not say they tithe, but the whole issue that resulted in Cain killing Abel was their bringing of the increase of their labors. Therefore, it appears that they were tithing but someone could argue it was only offerings.

The interesting thing would be the question of how did they learn what they were doing unless it was an established principle given to Adam?

[mfblume]

Since you pay loans back would you be required to tithe on them?

Only if my tithes are returned to me after I pay back what a loan caused me to increase with.

[mfblume]

Did Cain and Abel tithe?

No. Firstfruits are not tithes.

[gloryseeker]

No. Firstfruits are not tithes.

Hey Blume...guess what...we agree on something... :happydance

You are finally right :toofunny first fruits and tithes are different. Now I am sure if we got into the explanation we would disagree, but on the surface we are on the same page.

[hushergirl]

Thanks to all of you who rplied and to those who can go without doing a loan great sometimes we who live o nfixed incomes and have a lot of health issues and maybe we are not as great as others who have no bills I saY great for you but I am not as good with money as need be and do not have a lot of it so was just asking about loans and tithing not needing a comment on maki bg the loan.

[Jeffrey]

Sometimes we start with the wrong question :)

[Godsdrummer]

Sometimes we start with the wrong question :)

Or maybe we have been taught the wrong meaning from the beginning and therefor we have all these questions.

If we have to ask do we tithe on this or that then we don't understand what tithe is and what God intended it to be used for. Our giving to God has always been a part of the worship of his children. But worship must be free will, never an obligation. Tithing up till the Law was always part of worship something done in thanksgiving for what God had done for said person.

This is why the keeping of the law has been fulfilled. As God never intended the Jew to keep the law as religiously as it became. The law was a set of guidlines to base life off of not to be a ridgid list of rules as the pharise followed.

Further the use of the tithe as seen in our society in not how God intended things to be either. I was never one mans (pastors) increase. It was to provide for the substanace of all the workings of the kingdom of God. Which the tabernacle in the wildreness represented. All one has to do is to read the book to see this.

Gloryseeker
By this statement it would be easy to assume that there are times that you are not able. When you are "not able" would be times when the up keep of your carnal life exceeds the ability to fund or honor God's Word. I think in biblical terms this is the system of mammon:

I would be very carefull of those types of words of judgment they will come back to haunt you.

It was never whether we understand and follow the principles set forth in the law, it was the keeping of the law as the Pharise did that was the issue Jesus said he came to fulfill the law meaning by his sacrifice we should never go back to following a list of rules as we would have his spirit with us again as was in the garden. And we would walk by the spirit. When we fall back on the written list and dogmas we form a law of our own which become just as bad as the law keeping of the Jew. We try to fall back on our own works of righteousness and not Gods.

[Aquila]

Since you pay loans back would you be required to tithe on them?

No, one isn't required to tithe on loans. In fact, no one is "required" to tithe.

[seguidordejesus]

No tithe on loans. Hope that settles it. :)

[missourimary]

I joked about this with on a board the other day (may have been this one, can't remember). My TIC thought is that if you want to take tithing to the letter of the law (as it stands to many today, not Biblically speaking), if you consider the $300,000 house yours, and you are gaining the benefit from it, then how is it not as much (or more) a part of your increase as the paycheck of a man who is trying to support his family on $20,000/yr and just barely making ends meet, or the person on food stamps who is giving food to the church to pay a tithe on their government assistance? How is a $300,000 house less of an increase than subsistence?

If a person takes out loans and then files bankruptcy and has some debts erased, do they pay tithes on the amounts erased, if they used their loans to pay for things I use my income to pay for? for instance:
Mary:
$300/wk pay
-$30 tithes
-$15 offering
-$50 food
-$205 rent


Bro Debtor:
-$50 food on credit card
$300/wk pay
-$30 tithes
-$15 offering
-$255 rent

Mary spent $300, Bro D spent $350. He benefited from all $350, yet only paid $30 in tithes. If Bro D pays that money back later, did he really tithe on the first fruits since he began benefiting from the amount when he took out the loan? If Bro D defaults and doesn't pay the money back at all, he hasn't tithed on all his increase.

(I'm not preaching this method, but I've seen people manipulate this loophole to advantage.)

[Sam]

Tithing in the Scriptures was only on animals and crops and that was to feed the priests, Levites, and the poor. Those who were craftsmen or provided services or were fishermen and received money for their goods or services did not tithe. So, I guess if you borrow animals or crops we could discuss whether you tithe on them.

[missourimary]

Tithing in the Scriptures was only on animals and crops and that was to feed the priests, Levites, and the poor. Those who were craftsmen or provided services or were fishermen and received money for their goods or services did not tithe. So, I guess if you borrow animals or crops we could discuss whether you tithe on them.
:thumbsup

What is increase? Everything a person makes, everything after taxes, everything after taxes and benefits are taken out, everything after basic provisions (food, shelter) are made...? I was told to tithe on monetary gifts, but not on actual gifts, in a box tied with a bow style. I was encouraged to tithe on the gross, but others were allowed to tithe on net-after they paid health insurance and cafeteria plans! The argument was that wasn't increase for them, it was money they were required to spend.

[seekerman]

Since you pay loans back would you be required to tithe on them?

Who would you give the tithe to? It's not possible to tithe today.

[Sam]

Who would you give the tithe to? It's not possible to tithe today.

The tithe was to be taken to the Tabernacle (and later the t) to the Levites for them to distribute it to the priests, Levites and the poor.

The temple is no longer standing.
The priesthood is no longer active.
We can't go to Jerusalem and find any one or any place to take the tithe.

Under the New Covenant, each believer is the Temple of the Holy Spirit and we are all priests. Should we therefore pay our tithes to ourselves?

[Timmy]

Do I tithe on loans?

No.

:D

[onefaith2]

Just curious, why would you? It is not income that you earned it is something given to you under a set of criteria and you return the money with intrest. That is bad enough. One of the goals of every believer should be to get to the place where loans are something you give not something you take. I try and do cash for everything. I have one loan outstanding, my home note that is it. Beyond that it is cash. Don't be confused here I live in AZ and make barley over 30k for my household income. My home note is on my condo, but do to family growth I acutally rent a home and rent out my condo. I have little debt over all. It is certainly tough not making much but I am lucky to not have much debt of large proportions.

If all of us were in that situation, giving would be so much larger I think but also the temptation to BUY more stuff. Debt is a cruel taskmaster.

[onefaith2]

The tithe was to be taken to the Tabernacle (and later the t) to the Levites for them to distribute it to the priests, Levites and the poor.

The temple is no longer standing.
The priesthood is no longer active.
We can't go to Jerusalem and find any one or any place to take the tithe.

Under the New Covenant, each believer is the Temple of the Holy Spirit and we are all priests. Should we therefore pay our tithes to ourselves?

LOL.. nice one sam. Yeah I guess so if we are only following the law pattern of tithing.

[Nitehawk013]

What pattern then would we be following? Abraham's? Ok...show me a theophany to give my spoils of war to. Jacob's? Ok...then after God blesses me with all the things I demand of him I will take 10% to an altar. There was no priest for Jacob to even give it to.

The Law pattern is the only pattern that has people giving to other men and as demonstrated...it is no longer applicable.

Now offerings? That is explained throughout the NT. Offerings are NT, not tithing.

[onefaith2]

What pattern then would we be following? Abraham's? Ok...show me a theophany to give my spoils of war to. Jacob's? Ok...then after God blesses me with all the things I demand of him I will take 10% to an altar. There was no priest for Jacob to even give it to.

The Law pattern is the only pattern that has people giving to other men and as demonstrated...it is no longer applicable.

Now offerings? That is explained throughout the NT. Offerings are NT, not tithing.

The pattern is not based on WHAT they gave, but how much they gave. The tenth is the theme of Abraham and Jacob. Its the theme that followed into the Law and its a good pattern to not muzzle the ox today as Paul puts it. This was argued over hundreds of posts on the other Tithing post here, read all that lol!

Now to Melchizedek, prove he was a theophany. hehe

[seekerman]

The tithe was to be taken to the Tabernacle (and later the t) to the Levites for them to distribute it to the priests, Levites and the poor.

The temple is no longer standing.
The priesthood is no longer active.
We can't go to Jerusalem and find any one or any place to take the tithe.

Under the New Covenant, each believer is the Temple of the Holy Spirit and we are all priests. Should we therefore pay our tithes to ourselves?

Exactly!!!

[onefaith2]

15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


If one does believe only our bodies is the temple, what house is Paul talking about here.

It would be mighty hard to say we can behave ourself within ourself.

[Sam]

LOL.. nice one sam. Yeah I guess so if we are only following the law pattern of tithing.

What else would we follow?
Tithing was an Old Testament doctrine on crops and animals to support the piests, levites, and the poor.
The tithe was to be brought to Jerusalem to the Temple.
Since the destruction of the Temple and ending of the priesthood and sacrificial system tithing stopped.

Tithing of money or income was started by the Roman Catholic Church and has been carried on over into modern churches. Also the doctrine of papal (GS) infallibility, the idea that the priest/pastor holds the salvation of each church member in his hands, that leaving the church leads to hell, and the idea that water baptism washes away sins and is the birth of water. There have been quite a few Romish doctrines that have found their way into Oneness Pentecost.

[Sam]

15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


If one does believe only our bodies is the temple, what house is Paul talking about here.

It would be mighty hard to say we can behave ourself within ourself.

Each Christian individually and all Christians collectively are the temples of the Holy Spirit. God does not dwell in temples made by hand.

[onefaith2]

Each Christian individually and all Christians collectively are the temples of the Holy Spirit. God does not dwell in temples made by hand.

So what house is he talking about?

[onefaith2]

What else would we follow?
Tithing was an Old Testament doctrine on crops and animals to support the piests, levites, and the poor.
The tithe was to be brought to Jerusalem to the Temple.
Since the destruction of the Temple and ending of the priesthood and sacrificial system tithing stopped.

Tithing of money or income was started by the Roman Catholic Church and has been carried on over into modern churches. Also the doctrine of papal (GS) infallibility, the idea that the priest/pastor holds the salvation of each church member in his hands, that leaving the church leads to hell, and the idea that water baptism washes away sins and is the birth of water. There have been quite a few Romish doctrines that have found their way into Oneness Pentecost.

Tithing started way before the law. The priniciple will never change! If I give a tenth, the LORD will indeed bless, good measure.