View Full Version : Black National Anthem?? What in the world...
Hoovie
07-02-2008, 09:46 PM
Black Anthem??
What an incredible mess!
http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=123223
Mrs. LPW
07-02-2008, 09:54 PM
Black Anthem??
What an incredible mess!
http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=123223
Well she was enjoying herself. HA.
We would sing both anthems at the school I worked at in NYC .... for 9 years...
"Lift Every Voice and sing ... till earth and heaven and ring..."
95% African-American ....
mostly kids w/ West Indian heritage.
"Lift Every Voice and Sing" — often called "The Negro National Hymn" or "The Black National Anthem" — was written as a poem by James Weldon Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Weldon_Johnson) (1871–1938) and then set to music by his brother John Rosamond Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosamond_Johnson) (1873–1954) in 1900.
"Lift Every Voice and Sing" was first performed in public in Jacksonville, Florida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacksonville%2C_Florida) as part of a celebration of Lincoln's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln) Birthday on February 12 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_12), 1900 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1900) by a choir of 500 schoolchildren at the segregated Stanton School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanton_College_Preparatory_School), where James Weldon Johnson was principal.
Singing this song quickly became a way for African Americans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American) to demonstrate their patriotism and hope for the future. In calling for earth and heaven to "ring with the harmonies of Liberty," they could speak out subtly against racism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism) and Jim Crow laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws)—and especially the huge number of lynchings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching) accompanying the rise of the Ku Klux Klan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan) at the turn of the century. In 1919, the NAACP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAACP) adopted the song as "The Negro National Anthem." By the 1920s, copies of "Lift Every Voice and Sing" could be found in black churches across the country, often pasted into the hymnals.
In 1939, Augusta Savage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusta_Savage) received a commission from the World's Fair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_Fair) and created a 16 foot tall plaster sculpture called Lift Every Voice and Sing. Savage did not have any funds for a bronze cast, or even to move and store it, and it was destroyed by bulldozers at the close of the fair.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift_Every_Voice_and_Sing#cite_note-0)
During and after the American Civil Rights Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Rights_Movement_%281955-1968%29), the song experienced a rebirth, and by the 1970s was often sung immediately after "The Star Spangled Banner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star_Spangled_Banner)" at public events and performances across the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) where the event had a significant African-American population.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]
In Maya Angelou's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_Angelou) 1969 autobiography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobiography), I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Know_Why_the_Caged_Bird_Sings), the song is sung by the audience and students at Maya's eighth grade graduation, after a white school official dashes the educational aspirations of her class.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift_Every_Voice_and_Sing#cite_note-1)
In 1990, singer Melba Moore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melba_Moore) released a modern rendition of the song, which she recorded along with others including R&B artists Anita Baker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Baker), Stephanie Mills (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephanie_Mills), Dionne Warwick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionne_Warwick), Bobby Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Brown), Stevie Wonder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevie_Wonder), Jeffrey Osborne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Osborne), and Howard Hewett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Hewett); and gospel artists BeBe (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bee_Winans&action=edit&redlink=1) and CeCe Winans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CeCe_Winans), Take 6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Take_6), and The Clark Sisters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clark_Sisters). Partly because of the success of this recording, "Lift Every Voice and Sing" was entered into the Congressional Record (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Record) as the official African American National Hymn.
Wiki.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift_Every_Voice_and_Sing
Lift every voice and sing,
till earth and heaven ring,
Ring with the harmonies of liberty;
Let our rejoicing rise
High as the listening skies,
Let it resound loud as the rolling sea.
Sing a song full of the faith that the
dark past has taught us,
Sing a song full of the hope that the present has brought us;
facing the rising sun of our new day begun,
let us march on till victory is won.
Stony the road we trod,
bitter the chastening rod,
felt in the days when hope unborn had died;
yet with a steady beat,
have not our weary feet
come to the place
for which our fathers died?
We have come over a way that with tears have been watered,
We have come, treading our path through the blood of the slaughtered,
out from the gloomy past,
till now we stand at last
where the white gleam
of our bright star is cast.
God of our weary years,
God of our silent tears,
thou who hast brought us thus far on the way;
thou who hast by thy might led us into the light,
keep us forever in the path, we pray.
Lest our feet stray from the places, our God, where we met thee;
lest our hearts drunk with the wine of the world, we forget thee,
shadowed beneath thy hand,
may we forever stand,
true to our God,
true to our native land.
MissBrattified
07-02-2008, 10:36 PM
I really couldn't care less what the lyrics are. They could be a straight quote from scripture, and I still wouldn't appreciate it. "Statements" like this just try my LAST nerve.
And it is an HONOR to be asked to sing the national anthem.
She disrespected every single AMERICAN at that event--AND her country.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/fivelivebreakfast/blackpowersalute.jpg
This stirred muched debate at the 1968 Olympics too.
I really couldn't care less what the lyrics are. They could be a straight quote from scripture, and I still wouldn't appreciate it. "Statements" like this just try my LAST nerve.
And it is an HONOR to be asked to sing the national anthem.
She disrespected every single AMERICAN at that event--AND her country.
Tell you what .... the Star-Spangled banner is a hard song to sing ... no matter the lyrics ... I think it covers an octave and a half.
Miss B,
I'm an American and I don't feel she disrespected me...
MissBrattified
07-02-2008, 10:46 PM
Why the need to make oneself distinct FROM American tradition? Isn't the whole idea to integrate INTO American culture? Why fight to be a part of something you don't respect or appreciate?
I don't get it.
I have no problem with Special Hymns for Special Occasions. However, certain things such as the American flag, the National Anthem, and other symbolism should be held sacred and respected above other similar symbols. To be placed on the same plain as another song, flag, etc., is inappropriate, and to even combine them is inappropriate. IMO, anyway.
We still teach our kids to stand up when saying the pledge of allegiance, to place their hands over their hearts, and our son to remove his hat during the pledge or the national anthem. I suppose that's old fashioned. I don't consider times of patriotism to be the platform for personally gratifying political statements.
MissBrattified
07-02-2008, 10:46 PM
Miss B,
I'm an American and I don't feel she disrespected me...
I don't care about your feelings. :) She disrespected Americans, whether you "feel" that she did or not.
It would be equally annoying for a Christian to be asked to sing the national anthem and to sing "Amazing Grace" instead.
Some people try justify a rude and inappropriate action by pointing out that it was noble or even self-sacrificing. But really, it's just rude and inappropriate, and the superior "cause" is irrelevant.
Now certain patriotic songs about love of country and God are reified as sacred and some not so sacred ... oh boy....
Had she sung God Bless America or America the Beautiful (what we sang in grade school after the pledge) ... would we be having this conversation?
No, you said she disrespected every single American ... AND I'm still an American who was not offended ... nor feels disrespected.
Why is it you decide if she disrespected every American???
MissBrattified
07-02-2008, 10:54 PM
No you said she disrespected every single American ... AND I'm still an American who was not offended ... nor feels disrespected.
I didn't say that all Americans "felt disrespected", Daniel. :) I said, "She disrespected." I'm aware that she will have sympathizers, American or not.
MissBrattified
07-02-2008, 10:56 PM
Now patriotic songs about love of country and God are reified as sacred and some not so sacred ... oh boy....
Had she sung God Bless America or America the Beautiful (what we sang in grade school after the pledge) ... would we be having this conversation?
Hmmm. Maybe you need to have this conversation with someone else, because I am VERY rigid about this sort of thing.
In my opinion:
1. From a patriotic standpoint, she missed the mark.
2. From a standpoint of etiquette, she missed the mark.
3. From one singer to another, she missed the mark.
In the words of Bill Cosby: Obekaybe.
MissBrattified
07-02-2008, 10:59 PM
In the words of Bill Cosby: Obekaybe.
I like Bill Cosby. :D
What do you think he would say? :coffee2 (Other than the above quote)
I like Bill Cosby. :D
What do you think he would say? :coffee2 (Other than the above quote)
Who knows ... who cares? What is it w/ some of you ... sheesh.
Either extreme and dogmatic in theology or in political ideology...
Y'all really need to chill:toofunny
She sang a patriotic song out of turn and will suffer the consequences ....
Whatevah.
Talk radio must be slow these days.
Sweet Pea
07-03-2008, 05:32 AM
Dan - bottom line - No, you wouldn't "feel" disrespected - because you aren't normal.... :boxing :boxing
MissB You are right on in all aspects! You go girl! :happydance:happydance:happydance
rgcraig
07-03-2008, 05:59 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/fivelivebreakfast/blackpowersalute.jpg
This stirred muched debate at the 1968 Olympics too.
I always thought it was interesting that they hung their heads.......why didn't they raise them up if they were so proud?
Mrs. LPW
07-03-2008, 06:06 AM
Dan - bottom line - No, you wouldn't "feel" disrespected - because you aren't normal.... :boxing :boxing
MissB You are right on in all aspects! You go girl! :happydance:happydance:happydance
:toofunny
I'm not an American and have no real right to comment. So just ignore me if you choose.
I think if someone is asked to sing the National Anthem of thier country and they decide to sing something entirely different without permission, they are inviting criticism. To sing the national anthem at an event is a great honor.
The National Anthem of the United States is for every American Citizen to sing proudly. Black, White, Hispanic, or even Texan :D
The land of the free and the home of the brave.
I think it speaks for itself.
It seems to me that the lady wanted to make a statement and garner attention. Even the "brother" behind her was looking with a "whaaaaa???" expression.
I'm with Miss B, if I were an American I'd be a bit turned off.
StillStanding
07-03-2008, 06:12 AM
What was an insult to me was she tried to make the words fit to the tune of our national anthem.
As Miss Brat mentioned, it would be like someone singing "Amazing Grace" to the tune of the national anthem when asked to perform "The Star Spangled Banner"before an important public gathering. I would be just as insulted!
Well, she got her 15 minutes of fame! What a cockroach!
What was an insult to me was she tried to make the words fit to the tune of our national anthem.
As Miss Brat mentioned, it would be like someone singing "Amazing Grace" to the tune of the national anthem when asked to perform "The Star Spangled Banner"before an important public gathering. I would be just as insulted!
Well, she got her 15 minutes of fame! What a cockroach!
She did not use wisdom, that is for sure...
I can remember as a teen, the only Black station was a low powered one. At 6 pm it went off the air with a choir singing "Lift every voice and sing..."
I thought it was so beautiful...
The tragedy about this recent event is not just her total disrespect, but that it now may cause some look with disdain at truly beautiful and moving song.
I always thought it was interesting that they hung their heads.......why didn't they raise them up if they were so proud?
Yeah, If I just won the olympics, I think I'd be raisin' my big swelled head up, and stick my chest out just as far as I could regardless of either anthem.:bliss
I primarily only have one problem with it, which is in the last line: true to our native land. What about being true to our United States of American land. There could be hint of question on loyalty to America, since it wasn't mentioned.
Yeah, If I just won the olympics, I think I'd be raisin' my big swelled head up, and stick my chest out just as far as I could regardless of either anthem.:bliss
I primarily only have one problem with it, which is in the last line: true to our native land. What about being true to our United States of American land. There could be hint of question on loyalty to America, since it wasn't mentioned.
One must remember the time in which the poem was written...
My thoughts re the young men with bowed heads...as a teen seeing this, I thought their bowed heads were in respect...and they were making a statement.
Yeah, that's a good point on probably being "bowed heads for respect". I do think they could stand to throw some "American Loyalty"(true to America) in the last line, since their singing it "nowadays", long after the break away from slavery.
I just wish I could hear the video. My speakers aren't working, so all I can do is watch it.
pelathais
07-03-2008, 07:05 AM
I agree with Miss Bratty on this. Personally, I kind of like the song "Lift E'vry Voice..." but things do have their place and time. To completely usurp the National Anthem sends a message of divisiveness.
Artists are given a tremendous amount of liberty to interpret and express themselves, but there are lines that should not be crossed. For example, Mickey Mangun's "... the free! ... the free ...!" went over okay whereas Rosanne Barr's crotch scratching was rightly vilified.
Add to this event in Denver the fact that the mayor himself was shut out of the last minute "change" in the program and one really is left with the impression that the whole affair was a usurpation and subversion.
It was supposed to be the one day of the year when the local mayor gets to stand in the spot light and set forth his goals for the city and region - instead it became a soap box for a stranger and no one even remembers anything that the mayor said.
That's the problem often encountered in making such statements. As someone else pointed out concerning the 1968 Olympics "salute," then American men held their heads down. As I recall, one of them said at the time that they bowed their heads out of humility and "respect" for the fact that they were disrupting the Olympic spirit and tradition with their raised fists.
The singer in Denver would have done well to show a little more respect for the venue that she was usurping by immediately breaking into the National Anthem immediately after "Lift E'vry Voice..." Her antics will probably end up costing Obama some Colorado votes.
Hoovie
07-03-2008, 07:07 AM
Yeah, that's a good point on probably being "bowed heads for respect". I do think they could stand to throw some "American Loyalty"(true to America) in the last line, since their singing it "nowadays", long after the break away from slavery.
Just to be sure I was not misunderstood in starting this thread... I have little or no issue with the words.
The issue is that someone would so disrespect others as to make a political and racial statement when afforded the opportunity to sing the National Anthem.
Agenda or ignorance it matters not. Things like this that hurt the cause she hopes to promote (if it includes good PR for the black community).
I feel the same way about it as I would if she had sung CLC's "I'm a Pentecostal"
rgcraig
07-03-2008, 07:12 AM
Yes, the song is not the problem. It was using the words to the National Anthem and taking advantage of the honor of singing it.
StillStanding
07-03-2008, 07:13 AM
Just to be sure I was not misunderstood... I have little or no issue with the words.
The issue is that someone would so disrespect others as to make a political and racial statement when afforded the opportunity to sing the National Anthem.
Agenda or ignorance it matters not. Things like this that hurt the cause she hopes to promote (if it includes good PR for the black community).
I feel the same way about it as I would if she had sung CLC's "I'm a Pentecostal"
The thing I have the most problem with is that she used the melody of our national anthem to sing a song which has a totally different melody.
Next it will be sung to the tune of "God Save the Queen"!
Mrs. LPW
07-03-2008, 07:14 AM
The thing I have the most problem with is that she used the melody of our national anthem to sing a song which has a totally different melody.
Next it will be sung to the tune of "God Save the Queen"!
Hey now!!! :D
No, Stephen Hoover is working on a version sung to the tune of "I'm a Pentecostal"
StillStanding
07-03-2008, 07:15 AM
Hey now!!! :D
No, Stephen Hoover is working on a version sung to the tune of "I'm a Pentecostal"
:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny
rgcraig
07-03-2008, 07:16 AM
What is so disappointing to me is the cry for unity, yet the actions still show division.
I heard a commercial on the radio this week for a black college here in Memphis. They said "attend where everyone looks like you and talks like you"................WHAT??????
Just to be sure I was not misunderstood in starting this thread... I have little or no issue with the words.
The issue is that someone would so disrespect others as to make a political and racial statement when afforded the opportunity to sing the National Anthem.
Agenda or ignorance it matters not. Things like this that hurt the cause she hopes to promote (if it includes good PR for the black community).
I feel the same way about it as I would if she had sung CLC's "I'm a Pentecostal"
Yes, the song is not the problem. It was using the words to the National Anthem and taking advantage of the honor of singing it.
Agreed...however, someone mentioned the words, so that was my response.
I agree with all that she was wrong in doing as she did...
What is so disappointing to me is the cry for unity, yet the actions still show division.
I heard a commercial on the radio this week for a black college here in Memphis. They said "attend where everyone looks like you and talks like you"................WHAT??????
Back in the day when Morehouse, Wilberforce, Howard, and a few others were established, that was the only means of education afforded to people of color.
Today, the commercial for the school in Memphis does sound disappointing.
Mrs. LPW
07-03-2008, 07:25 AM
Do you suppose she regrets it at all?
StillStanding
07-03-2008, 07:28 AM
Do you suppose she regrets it at all?
Are you kidding? Her 15 minutes of fame probably quadrupled her bookings and income!
The issue is that someone would so disrespect others as to make a political and racial statement when afforded the opportunity to sing the National Anthem.
Excellent point Stephen. I agree.
rgcraig
07-03-2008, 07:29 AM
Do you suppose she regrets it at all?
I would say probably not.........she knew what she was doing and wanted to make that statement.
I think if I had been in charge of the event I would have politely walked her off the stage and come back to lead everyone in singing the National Anthem.
I guess they kept thinking she was going to finish by singing the original anthem.
What was an insult to me was she tried to make the words fit to the tune of our national anthem.
As Miss Brat mentioned, it would be like someone singing "Amazing Grace" to the tune of the national anthem when asked to perform "The Star Spangled Banner"before an important public gathering. I would be just as insulted!
Well, she got her 15 minutes of fame! What a cockroach!
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????
Mrs. LPW
07-03-2008, 07:37 AM
I would say probably not.........she knew what she was doing and wanted to make that statement.
I think if I had been in charge of the event I would have politely walked her off the stage and come back to lead everyone in singing the National Anthem.
I guess they kept thinking she was going to finish by singing the original anthem.
Have there been any comments from any black organizations on this? I wonder if she's being supported.
Now certain patriotic songs about love of country and God are reified as sacred and some not so sacred ... oh boy....
Had she sung God Bless America or America the Beautiful (what we sang in grade school after the pledge) ... would we be having this conversation?
:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah
I still hold this statement to be true .... had she used the words to these other patriotic standards this news story would be a footnote.
Some geezer would have complained but it would been deemed creative license.
I'm sorry ... I don't make the flag or an anthem sacred ... I love this country and would lay my life down for it.....
but would do so for what it represents .... FREEDOM.
She made a poor decision perhaps in regards to decorum .... but this is the stuff TALK RADIO thrives on ...
The reasons to me ... are OBVIOUS.
rgcraig
07-03-2008, 07:46 AM
Daniel,
Some things are just proper --- this was NOT proper. She was asked to sing the National Anthem - - not any song she felt like singing.
Daniel,
Some things are just proper --- this was NOT proper. She was asked to sing the National Anthem - - not any song she felt like singing.
And yet had she busted out w/ OH BEAUTIFUL FOR SPACIOUS SKYS ... a la Ray Charles it would not be a biggie.
I'm all for decorum and yes... this is where some have a legitimate quibble ...
but my gut tells me that had she chosen an "accepted" standard we wouldn't even know about this story.
The fact remains the patriotic standard about love of country and God she substituted has a storied past ... it did not come out of nowhere .... and is an accepted standard at many venues ... including public schools.
This is not some artist burning a flag while singing to our nation.
Perspective and balance are sorely needed ...
Carry on ...
StillStanding
07-03-2008, 07:52 AM
This is the funniest National Anthem Ever!
The "Star Spangled Banner" has four verses. As an experiment, Jamie Kennedy sings all four verses before a baseball game. The response of the crowd is hilarious!
As a warning, you need to skip to 2:30 minute mark of the video before he starts to sing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p9PmnzAHjg
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 07:52 AM
:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah
I still hold this statement to be true .... had she used the words to these other patriotic standards this news story would be a footnote.
First of all, it is presumed that she would have gotten permission. The only reason she kept her choice private is because she knew she was making a statement, and took advantage of her platform, and she knew it would be objected to. (Or assumed it would be.) Chances are, if she had ASKED, someone might have said, "Sing both songs." Her actions are about 3 decades late. She's no Rosa Parks, but I'd be willing to wager she sees herself in that noble light.
Some geezer would have complained but it would been deemed creative license.
Don't be so sure. :)
I'm sorry ... I don't make the flag or an anthem sacred ... I love this country and would lay my life down for it.....
but would do so for what it represents .... FREEDOM.
That's your loss. Symbolism and tradition have their place, and this is the place. By the way, the flag and anthem ARE symbolic of that FREEDOM, and therefore should be treated with equal respect.
Are you okay with flag burning too?
She made a poor decision perhaps .... but this is the stuff TALK RADIO thrives on ...
On the reasons to me ... or OBVIOUS.
Talk Radio is great! I love Neal Boortz, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and my favorite TR Boy, Michael Savage!
Look, if Mickey Mangun had been criticized for singing Amazing Grace in place of the national anthem, I would say the same thing: Bad choice, impolite, taking advantage of a platform for personal gain.
Furthermore, if your intentions are to promote unity, it accomplishes the exact opposite, which means one of two things:
1. The intent was NOT to promote unity, or,
2. She made a stupid decision with good intentions.
So...stupid at best, intentionally divisive at worst.
SOUNWORTHY
07-03-2008, 07:57 AM
I always thought it was interesting that they hung their heads.......why didn't they raise them up if they were so proud?
I like that!!
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 07:59 AM
And yet had she busted out w/ OH BEAUTIFUL FOR SPACIOUS SKYS ... a la Ray Charles it would not be a biggie.
I'm all for decorum and yes... this is where some have a legitimate quibble ...
but my gut tells me that had she chosen an "accepted" standard we wouldn't even know about this story.
Don't be obtuse. People aren't upset because she sang "another patriotic song" in place of the national anthem; people are upset because she used her temporary position to make an unnecessary political statement. If she had simply sang a different song, it would have been deemed impolite, and I doubt she would be invited back for a second time, but you're right--probably no uproar.
The fact remains the patriotic standard about love of country and God has a storied past ... did not come out of nowhere .... and is an accepted standard at many venues ... including schools.
It is usually sang in ADDITION to the national anthem. Not in place of it, or combined with it.
This is not some artist burning a flag while singing to our nation.
Maybe not, but you don't know that for sure. Her intentions could have been divisive. Perspective and balance are needed, and that means recognizing that she MAY have been intentionally divisive. (Regardless of what apologies she offers after the fact.)
chosenbyone
07-03-2008, 08:00 AM
What was an insult to me was she tried to make the words fit to the tune of our national anthem.
As Miss Brat mentioned, it would be like someone singing "Amazing Grace" to the tune of the national anthem when asked to perform "The Star Spangled Banner"before an important public gathering. I would be just as insulted!
Well, she got her 15 minutes of fame! What a cockroach!
Don't you think calling her a cockroach was a bit too harsh?
I thought she had a lovely voice and she would have done a great job on our national anthem. Perhaps, she should have song both songs, which would have kept people from being so angry.
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 08:02 AM
Don't you think calling her a cockroach was a bit too harsh?
I thought she had a lovely voice and she would have done a great job on our national anthem. Perhaps, she should have song both songs, which would have kept people from being so angry.
The wiser choice would definitely have been to sing both songs, AND to get permission to do so.
SOUNWORTHY
07-03-2008, 08:04 AM
Yeah, that's a good point on probably being "bowed heads for respect". I do think they could stand to throw some "American Loyalty"(true to America) in the last line, since their singing it "nowadays", long after the break away from slavery.
It was the black man who sold them into slavery, it was a white man who freed them from slavery.
It was the black man who sold them into slavery, it was a white man who freed them from slavery.
What a silly statement devoid of any idea of what happened in between.
From 1619 to 1865 ...
It was a white man who dehumanized, beat, raped, whipped, and bartered them like animals.
This continued w/ Jim Crow ... until the 1950's and 60's.
You sound like someone did another a favor. Holy smokes!!!!
Ignorance is abounding today.
rgcraig
07-03-2008, 08:14 AM
Just for the record - I was just as appalled when Rosanne Barr screeched out the National Anthem.
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 08:18 AM
What a silly statement devoid of any idea of what happened in between.
It was a white man who dehumanized, beat, raped, whipped, and bartered them like animals.
Ignorance is abounding today.
So did black men, Daniel.
And there were many white men who fought to have slavery abolished. The heroics of both black and white people to abolish slavery should be recognized.
In Africa, it is black men who are still dehumanizing, beating, raping, whipping, shooting, torturing, murdering, slaughtering their fellow black men, women and children like animals. That's in the present. I would like to see the angry energy directed towards a checkered PAST in the USA redirected towards solving real existing problems NOW.
Like I said earlier, Ms. Rene is late with her statement. It isn't needed now, and comes across like a buzzing fly that needs a good swat. MOST Americans have moved on from a past of racism, except to be continually reminded of it by those who seek bitterness and division, rather than peace and unity.
I don't think anyone wants to rewrite history, but lets celebrate the fact that racism, for all intents and purposes, has been eradicated in this country. A person has the right to "feel" however they want--including disliking other races--but they no longer have the right or freedom to act upon their dislike or hatred. Wasn't that the whole point?
Here is a good quote:
"As guardian of the true history of the Black Panther Party, the [Dr. Huey P. Newton] Foundation, which includes former leading members of the Party, denounces this group's exploitation of the Party's name and history. Failing to find its own legitimacy in the black community, this band would graft the Party's name upon itself, which we condemn... [T]hey denigrate the Party's name by promoting concepts absolutely counter to the revolutionary principles on which the Party was founded... The Black Panthers were never a group of angry young militants full of fury toward the "white establishment." The Party operated on love for black people, not hatred of white people."[52]
– Dr. Huey P. Newton Foundation , There Is No New Black Panther Party
Baron1710
07-03-2008, 08:18 AM
What a silly statement devoid of any idea of what happened in between.
From 1619 to 1865 ...
It was a white man who dehumanized, beat, raped, whipped, and bartered them like animals.
This continued w/ Jim Crow ... until the 1950's and 60's.
Ignorance is abounding today.
That was one old white dude!!
pastorrick1959
07-03-2008, 08:19 AM
AMERICA LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT. i could care less about a persons color of their skin ,, if they r legal then they can be here and i dont care,every race can have their own songs shouldnt matter to anyone else ..u dont like it u dont have to sing it ...but to not sing the national anthem is wrong .. it should be a binding song of those that appreciate this country and what has been done to get it to this point.
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 08:19 AM
Just for the record - I was just as appalled when Rosanne Barr screeched out the National Anthem.
My goodness, me too! Talk about causing an uproar--and rightly so.
That was one old white dude!!
Of course other black men did this ... but to dare marginalize this horrible chapter in our history by making a white man the savior when many of them were the villain in this tragedy is sick.
Miss B... I know 1 million men died in the Civil War ... a war fought for many reasons ... but fought predominantly for economic reasons ... one being a workforce that cost next to nothing ... a move from an agrarian economy to an industrialized one ...
The Emancipation Proclamation freed slaves in the Confederacy ... which Lincoln had no jurisdiction over ... and we did not do so in the Union until after the War ... and NO LINCOLN WASN'T alive when we did so Constitutionally.
Some historians note this was a political move at a crucial juncture in the War for personal expediency as the South was advancing ...
In the end ... it was abolished w/ much bloodshed.
Only to be replaced by another form of "slavery" ... sharecropping and segregation.
The latter ending on a legal level just 40 years ago.
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 08:25 AM
Daniel, no one is objecting to the Black National Anthem. Have you heard a single person reject or object to that song? No one minds. And it is appreciated, just as any other sacred hymn. But the national anthem is set apart, and appropriately so.
Quite frankly, I didn't even really care for Mickey Mangun's version of the anthem. Musically, it didn't really work, and some songs sound better in their original simplicity. JMO
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 08:27 AM
Of course other black men did this ... but to dare marginalize this horrible chapter in our history by making a white man the savior when many of them were the villain in this tragedy is sick.
Miss B... I know 1 million men died in the Civil War ... a war fought for many reasons ... but fought predominantly for economic reasons ... one being a workforce that cost next to nothing ... a move from an agrarian economy to an industrialized one ...
The Emancipation Proclamation freed slaves in the Confederacy ... which Lincoln had no jurisdiction over ... and did not do so in the Union until after the War ...
Some historians note this was a political move at a crucial juncture in the War for personal expediency ...
In the end ... it was abolished w/ much bloodshed.
Only to be replaced by another form of "slavery" ... sharecropping and segregation.
The latter ending on a legal level just 40 years ago.
It still ended. :) Political reasons or not. You can write it all off as convenient and political if you want to, but you can't tell me that families fought against families just for the sake of the economy. I tend to believe it was a lot more passionate than that. Men fight for ideals.
SOUNWORTHY
07-03-2008, 08:27 AM
:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah
I still hold this statement to be true .... had she used the words to these other patriotic standards this news story would be a footnote.
Some geezer would have complained but it would been deemed creative license.
I'm sorry ... I don't make the flag or an anthem sacred ... I love this country and would lay my life down for it......:blah:blah:blah:blah
Daniel, have you served, if not maybe you should and put your money where your mouth is.:winkgrin
:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah
I still hold this statement to be true .... had she used the words to these other patriotic standards this news story would be a footnote.
Some geezer would have complained but it would been deemed creative license.
I'm sorry ... I don't make the flag or an anthem sacred ... I love this country and would lay my life down for it......:blah:blah:blah:blah
Daniel, have you served, if not maybe you should and put your money where your mouth is.:winkgrin
Another ridiculous statement ... most of the populace has not served but does not mean one would not lay down their life for country...
Are you okay???
That was one old white dude!!
:crazywalls You're something else, dude.
SOUNWORTHY
07-03-2008, 08:34 AM
The fact remains the patriotic standard about love of country and God she substituted has a storied past ... it did not come out of nowhere .... and is an accepted standard at many venues ... including public schools....
So is teaching evolution, alternative lifestyles and passing out condones but that doesn't make it right. Our public school system is a poor example for anything.
Baron1710
07-03-2008, 08:34 AM
:crazywalls You're something else, dude.
It just struck me funny. Great promo on the myth of Lincoln though.
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 08:35 AM
Another ridiculous statement ... most of the populace has not served but does not mean one would not lay down their life for country...
Are you okay???
So the answer is no? LOL!!!
Daniel, look, symbolism matters to me. I wear a wedding ring because I love my husband, and I want everyone to know it. It's not just another piece of jewelry. I know some men take their wives rings and have them reset with more precious stones on anniversaries or whatnot, but I threatened my husband, and told him to NEVER touch my ring or alter it in any way. I am very sentimental about it--because I'm sentimental about HIM. I don't care to have a bigger diamond. When I look at my ring, I remember going into Wal-Mart, yes, Wal-Mart...lol...with Jeff, holding hands, leaning over the glass jewelry counter, and choosing a set of rings together. We spent every cent of our savings, which was about $250. :heart
He's welcome to buy me another ring...:D But I can promise you it will never replace the one I have now, or even go on next to it.
I feel the same way about the flag and the anthem, and other symbols of our country. Because I love my country, I want those symbols untouched, unaltered and untainted. There are men who fight in wars, not just for freedom, but to protect the symbols of freedom. No doubt, there are men who would die protecting the FLAG. And they are to be commended for their devotion.
And by the way--I love my husband a lot more than I love my country. :girlyluv
Sweet Pea
07-03-2008, 08:37 AM
And while you are putting your money where your mouth is..... maybe you should read a little more history. :blah:blah:blah
Yes, white men were slave owners - but it was the black man who originally SOLD other black men to the white man. :boxing
You are NOT the all-knowing Daniel. It seems that you think you know as fact EVERYTHING there is to know about any situation. You never offer your opinions - just your "knowledge" - From the South Texas District, to the New York Metro District to the Western District to the Apostolic Assemblies - and now to know it was appropriate to go against what a person has been asked to do when singing a specific song. :crazywalls
It would be nice to be so knowledgeable about every subject discussed on this forum.
Cindy
07-03-2008, 08:38 AM
Dan - bottom line - No, you wouldn't "feel" disrespected - because you aren't normal.... :boxing :boxing
MissB You are right on in all aspects! You go girl! :happydance:happydance:happydance
Daniel not normal? *gasp* You mean he is like me? :reaction
:crazywalls :gaga
Cindy
07-03-2008, 08:40 AM
I always thought it was interesting that they hung their heads.......why didn't they raise them up if they were so proud?
So they weren't looking at the flag!
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 08:40 AM
And while you are putting your money where your mouth is..... maybe you should read a little more history. :blah:blah:blah
Yes, white men were slave owners - but it was the black man who originally SOLD other black men to the white man. :boxing
That is irrelevant. They (the sellers and traffickers) were taken advantage of by the evil white men, who knew they needed money. :coffee2
And while you are putting your money where your mouth is..... maybe you should read a little more history. :blah:blah:blah
Yes, white men were slave owners - but it was the black man who originally SOLD other black men to the white man. :boxing
You are NOT the all-knowing Daniel. It seems that you think you know as fact EVERYTHING there is to know about any situation. You never offer your opinions - just your "knowledge" - From the South Texas District, to the New York Metro District to the Western District to the Apostolic Assemblies - and now to know it was appropriate to go against what a person has been asked to do when singing a specific song. :crazywalls
It would be nice to be so knowledgeable about every subject discussed on this forum.
This is some revelation ???? ... duh.
Someone has been reading my posts intently.
Wow ... I didn't know you read all my posts, Sweet Pea.
I'm honored.
Have another sip of Haterade.
:drama
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 08:42 AM
This is some revelation ...
Someone has been reading my posts intently.
Wow ... I didn't know you read all my posts, Sweet Pea.
Have another sip of Haterade.
:drama
Do you think that people hate you, when they disagree with you? :drama
Do you think that people hate you, when they disagree with you? :drama
Oh I know you don't hate me Miss B.
It's the Deceptecons that do.
Sweet Pea
07-03-2008, 08:45 AM
Do you think that people hate you, when they disagree with you? :drama
He must......... I certainly don't "hate" him..... I'm just curious as to how he got so much knowledge at such a young age? :gaga
I wasn't even going to respond to his post - but I do want him to know that I don't hate him - I just don't agree with his every post and perception of situations.
:drama
That is irrelevant. They (the sellers and traffickers) were taken advantage of by the evil white men, who knew they needed money. :coffee2
More common sense from Lady B.
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 08:46 AM
Oh I know you don't hate me Miss B.
It's the Deceptecons that do.
I need to start a list of Danielisms. :coffee2
He must......... I certainly don't "hate" him..... I'm just curious as to how he got so much knowledge at such a young age? :gaga
I wasn't even going to respond to his post - but I do want him to know that I don't hate him - I just don't agree with his every post and perception of situations.
:drama
That's what makes this a forum son of Popeye.
Different perspectives. I know that's hard coming from your life experience.
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 08:47 AM
More common sense from Lady B.
That was sarcasm, NOT common sense!!! :foottap
Um. :toofunny
Cindy
07-03-2008, 08:51 AM
What a silly statement devoid of any idea of what happened in between.
From 1619 to 1865 ...
It was a white man who dehumanized, beat, raped, whipped, and bartered them like animals.
This continued w/ Jim Crow ... until the 1950's and 60's.
You sound like someone did another a favor. Holy smokes!!!!
Ignorance is abounding today.
And it is still going on today in more subtle ways. I will tell you a little story that happened at a high school football game to me and a couple of my friends and co-workers who are black. We were walking up the ramp to the stadium seats and were walking past a couple of prominent women in our little town. As they walked past instead of saying hello, they kind of lowered their heads a little and said "girls". They walked past and I was in shock, I asked one of my friends does that happen often, she said all the time Cindy, all the time. She said you see, we clean their houses too. It literally brought tears to my eyes I was so angry. One of my friends said Cindy that is just the way it is. This was in the 90's BTW.
rgcraig
07-03-2008, 08:55 AM
So they weren't looking at the flag!
Sad, huh?
rgcraig
07-03-2008, 08:57 AM
That was sarcasm, NOT common sense!!! :foottap
Um. :toofunny
LOL - - I caught that!
I know projection is a defense mechanism we all use, yours truly, not to accept responsibility done wrong ... and yes ... in the full scope of things it was warring tribes that often sold slaves to slave traders ... but to minimize what happened in between ... and to place the onus on blacks for somehow making slavery happen IS TWISTED AND DISTORTED .... and that a white man freed him ... is well ....not coherent in this poster's mind.
This was a tragedy we allowed to happen ... our forefathers participated in it ... our Presidents or Congressional leaders owned ... abused ... and even slept w/ their slaves.
It is what it is ...
We stopped importing slaves in 1807 ... yet for still another 60 years we bred and impugned them w/ no regard to human dignity, families or God's Word.
No one is looking to inculcate "white guilt" ... but let's look at what it was for what it was ... not pass the buck ... or point a finger.
Or minimalize.
It was hatred and racism that perpetuated this ... even in our churches and by preachers ....and it permeated well into the last century in our laws and behaviors ... and in many ways still does.
It's a blemish that still affects us today. It has taken time to turn the page from this horrific reality.
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 09:10 AM
goes both ways dan
goes both ways dan
It does ... but when one has been in the position of power ... with literally the power of life and death ... it's easy not to empathize ...
These wounds run deep ... we're talking over 250 years of slavery and another century of segregation ... things are yet in the scheme of things ... fresh to a people who literally were stripped from what we today enjoy as God-given liberties.
Do we need to move on ... yes ... and we are ... but let's keep perspective and realize that the atrocity was real and that it's still happening in various forms.
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 09:14 AM
dan i grew poor and white in the south, most people i know now dont know anything about race problems except what they read which is not always accurate, some of those stupid people treat poor people white and black like trash, been there, seen it, dt
Cindy
07-03-2008, 09:16 AM
dan i grew poor and white in the south, most people i know now dont know anything about race problems except what they read which is not always accurate, some of those stupid people treat poor people white and black like trash, been there, seen it, dt
Tell it DT, and that STILL goes on today!
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 09:17 AM
true cindy, i was raised to hate, but Jesus changed that, dt
dan i grew poor and white in the south, most people i know now dont know anything about race problems except what they read which is not always accurate, some of those stupid people treat poor people white and black like trash, been there, seen it, dt
True.
Sharecropping ... which began during the Reconstruction .... which forced labor through indebtedness by white plantation owners ... literally dehumanized both white and black sharecroppers well into the last half the last century ...
Very true .
rgcraig
07-03-2008, 09:19 AM
It does ... but when one has been in the position of power ... with literally the power of life and death ... it's easy not to empathize ...
These wounds run deep ... we're talking over 250 years of slavery and another century of segregation ... things are yet in the scheme of things ... fresh to a people who literally were stripped from what we today enjoy as God-given liberties.
Do we need to move on ... yes ... and we are ... but let's keep perspective and realize that the atrocity was real and that it's still happening in various forms.
True!
Also, I doubt many of them would really want to go back to their native land because those atrocity are still very real there.
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 09:21 AM
True.
Sharecropping ... which began during the Reconstruction .... which forced labor through indebtedness by white plantation owners ... literally dehumanized both white and black sharecroppers well into the last half the last century ...
Very true.
funny you mentioned sharecroppers dan, i knew a few as a kid
True!
Also, I doubt many of them would really want to go back to their native land because those atrocity are still very real there.
And yet again ... that's there ...
It's what has happened here that affects us all ...
That's like telling a mother or child who has suffered domestic or sexual abuse ... that they need to understand it happens in other homes ...
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 09:22 AM
I know projection is a defense mechanism we all use, yours truly, not to accept responsibility done wrong ... and yes ... in the full scope of things it was warring tribes that often sold slaves to slave traders ... but to minimize what happened in between ... and to place the onus on blacks for somehow making slavery happen IS TWISTED AND DISTORTED .... and that a white man freed him ... is well ....not coherent in this poster's mind.
I'm not placing the "onus" on blacks for making slavery happen, at least, not in the sense that the slaves themselves orchestrated their own bondage. However, it is equally distorted to say that Africans were not involved in the bondage of their own people. The white man DID essentially free the black man from slavery (in the US) and many black men (and women) fought for their own freedom as well.
This was a tragedy we allowed to happen ... our forefathers participated in it ... our Presidents or Congressional leaders owned ... abused ... and even slept w/ their slaves.
Agreed.
It is what it is ...
It was what it was.
We stopped importing slaves in 1807 ... yet for 60 years we bred them w/ no regard to human dignity.
We? Not all states, and not all white men owned slaves, even those who had the means to. I think that is an important point to make, since it seems that the assumption is...that ALL white men (with means) owned slaves, which is not the case at all. A second erroneous assumption is that all slave owners abused their slaves, although of course, slavery in and of itself is an abuse. (By abuse, I mean physically or sexually) The abuse of power is present, no matter how kind the "master."
No one is looking to inculcate "white guilt" ... but let's look at what it was for what it was ... not pass the buck ... or point a finger.
Or minimalize.
Let's not extrapolate a thread about inappropriate song choices into a thread meant to inculcate "white guilt." Or minimize the flamboyantly bad etiquette on the part of a singer who knew better.
It was hatred and racism that perpetuated this ... even in our churches and by preachers ....and it permeated well into the last century in our laws and behaviors ... and in many ways still does.
It's a blemish that still affects us today. It has taken time to turn the page from this horrific reality.
Then let's turn the page. PLEASE stop substituting black culture for American culture, as if one supercedes the other, or as if American culture excludes black culture, when in fact, it has effectively accepted it.
Please don't trample on sacred American tradition and symbolism in an attempt to make a political and racially charged statement about freedom that has already been achieved.
And please don't minimize the offense I take when someone mangles a song meant to symbolize freedom to EVERYONE, black, white or indifferent.
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 09:23 AM
read about indentured servants my family came from scotland in the early 1700s worked 7 years to be free
read about indentured servants my family came from scotland in the early 1700s worked 7 years to be free
Still happens today ... we have these cases w/ Asian and Latino immigrants today ...
There are horror stories of this in the neighborhood our church was in ...
20-25 people forced to live in a small apt. and forced to work .... in the streets of New York to pay for their trips here.
AmericanAngel
07-03-2008, 09:28 AM
sweetpea-"Yes, white men were slave owners - but it was the black man who originally SOLD other black men to the white man. "
when you said this, I had to look it up, I hadn't heard this before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States
In the begining of the 2nd paragraph, it says it.
oh, by the way, great dialoge. We need to discuss some things out in the open. I don't mean to be ugly, but there is alot of problems for African Americans, but at the same time, when I see (the latest) a commercial for a show called "what is is to be black in America", I cringe and roll my eyes. What if we had a programe on tv about "What's it's like to be white in America."? Oh, that would go over real great..yeah.
And cnesttx, I believe that.It is sad. It does still happen today. Are they older women? The older generation still had ideals and patterns ingrained into them. It goes both sides though too.
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 09:28 AM
It does ... but when one has been in the position of power ... with literally the power of life and death ... it's easy not to empathize ...
Like its easy to say you would die for your country, even when you've never been in the position to do so? :coffee2
These wounds run deep ... we're talking over 250 years of slavery and another century of segregation ... things are yet in the scheme of things ... fresh to a people who literally were stripped from what we today enjoy as God-given liberties.
Do we need to move on ... yes ... and we are ... but let's keep perspective and realize that the atrocity was real and that it's still happening in various forms.
The atrocity, as it were, is not still happening in any form, except secretly or illegally. No one in the states possesses black slaves, no one is allowed to abuse or injure someone due to their race (or for any other reason), schools have been successfully integrated (although some idiotic black leaders are trying to undo that important achievement), and equality has been established, although enforcing it takes time and effort on the part of the government.
So, the ATROCITY that WAS is no more. What IS, is minor, by comparison, and the wounds that "run deep" belong to older, more respected and respectable black men and women, who would NOT use the tactics taken on by some of today's advocates, who are more interested in personal notoriety and political power than they are in seeing to the overall wellbeing and equality of the black people.
To bring the thread back down to earth, Daniel--What was Ms. Rene trying to accomplish (in your opinion), and do you feel she succeeded?
rgcraig
07-03-2008, 09:28 AM
Then let's turn the page. PLEASE stop substituting black culture for American culture, as if one supercedes the other, or as if American culture excludes black culture, when in fact, it has effectively accepted it.
Please don't trample on sacred American tradition and symbolism in an attempt to make a political and racially charged statement about freedom that has already been achieved.
And please don't minimize the offense I take when someone mangles a song meant to symbolize freedom to EVERYONE, black, white or indifferent.
Amen!
I just wish we could call everyone that lives in America - AMERICANS! Why the double country names?
To bring the thread back down to earth, Daniel--What was Ms. Rene trying to accomplish (in your opinion), and do you feel she succeeded?
Call her up and ask her ...
I offer my divergent opinion ... in a setting that for the most part would not offer a varying perspective on this matter ...
Let each of us decide ....
I aint mad at this lady. I am however quite sad. I get what she was trying to do. What she was attempting to say. Its a beautiful song full of patriotic hope. But sadly she failed to hit her mark and likely did more harm than good.
Some will be forced to distance from this song and the depth of meaning it holds, while others will rally to this cause and defend what she did. In the first place, she has done harm to the depth of meaning that "Lift Every Voice and Sing" holds. In the second place she has further exacerbated a feeling in the white community that white people have once again been told how they ought to feel.
You don't win friends and influence people that way. What ever her goal was, in the end, she hurt the cause of racial healing. That makes me sad.
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 09:32 AM
thats me an american, dt
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 09:33 AM
And yet again ... that's there ...
It's what has happened here that affects us all ...
That's like telling a mother or child who has suffered domestic or sexual abuse ... that they need to understand it happens in other homes ...
No, that would be like telling a mother or child who has suffered domestic or sexual abuse at the hands of a black man, to not suspect all black men of having the same lack of character. And to add as a footnote, that white men can be abusive as well. It is the character of the person, not the color of the skin that is important.
It is bothersome when black people, who have risen up against inequality and racism, then express their own racism by denigrating the character of white people as a whole, instead of recognizing that color doesn't matter.
funny you mentioned sharecroppers dan, i knew a few as a kid
The effects of sharecropping in the South were felt well into the 1970's and 1980's ... and in some ways even today.
From attitudes to the effects on the land (geography real estate, etc.)
pelathais
07-03-2008, 09:36 AM
And yet had she busted out w/ OH BEAUTIFUL FOR SPACIOUS SKYS ... a la Ray Charles it would not be a biggie.
I'm all for decorum and yes... this is where some have a legitimate quibble ...
but my gut tells me that had she chosen an "accepted" standard we wouldn't even know about this story.
The fact remains the patriotic standard about love of country and God she substituted has a storied past ... it did not come out of nowhere .... and is an accepted standard at many venues ... including public schools.
This is not some artist burning a flag while singing to our nation.
Perspective and balance are sorely needed ...
Carry on ...
I disagree. The occasion was the mayor's annual State of the City address. Such formal functions always open with the National Anthem. If the mayor's lackeys had wanted to embellish the program (and I'm certain they had their own ideas) the certainly could have done so without offending the sensibilities of everyone else in the city.
And to address the question about support for the singer that was raised by another poster - the local news has been strangely silent on this issue. It seems that no one has stepped up to support this woman's actions. And she herself has apologized.
"Lift E'vry Voice" is a swell song. But what this artist did with it was indefensible. She herself seems to have realized that.
StillStanding
07-03-2008, 09:37 AM
Do you think folks would get upset if I was chosen to lead the "Pledge of Allegiance" at a state congessional meeting and I changed a few words to include the UPCI in it? :D
I disagree. The occasion was the mayor's annual State of the City address. Such formal functions always open with the National Anthem. If the mayor's lackeys had wanted to embellish the program (and I'm certain they had their own ideas) the certainly could have done so without offending the sensibilities of everyone else in the city.
And to address the question about support for the singer that was raised by another poster - the local news has been strangely silent on this issue. It seems that no one has stepped up to support this woman's actions. And she herself has apologized.
"Lift E'vry Voice" is a swell song. But what this artist did with it was indefensible. She herself seems to have realized that.
I doubt it ... perhaps she regrets the publicity ... but if you read a little about her past and her views you'll find out that she is indeed very different and apt to "creative license" in the future.
Michael Phelps
07-03-2008, 09:39 AM
No, that would be like telling a mother or child who has suffered domestic or sexual abuse at the hands of a black man, to not suspect all black men of having the same lack of character. And to add as a footnote, that white men can be abusive as well. It is the character of the person, not the color of the skin that is important.
It is bothersome when black people, who have risen up against inequality and racism, then express their own racism by denigrating the character of white people as a whole, instead of recognizing that color doesn't matter.
Agreed, Miss B.
Equality is not really equality when one race/creed/political group/etc. has greater opportunity because of said differences - no matter which side of the fence it's on.
Do you think folks would get upset if I was chosen to lead the "Pledge of Allegiance" at a state congessional meeting and I changed a few words to include the UPCI in it? :D
Apples and oranges ... the words she replaced were still about her country ... not her religious affiliation ...
Creative thought, PM, however ... just like Rene.
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 09:40 AM
Do you think folks would get upset if I was chosen to lead the "Pledge of Allegiance" at a state congessional meeting and I changed a few words to include the UPCI in it? :D
i personally would be, throw tomatoe mad, lol
The issue isnt Slavery Dan. The issue here is the harm this person has done to race relations.
you dont pour battery acid in an open wound and suggest your attempting to help.
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 09:42 AM
Apples and oranges ... the words she replaced were still about her country ... not her religious affiliation ...
Creative thought, PM, however ... just like Rene.
Yet, unlike Rene, I have a feeling PM would edit himself and not be so self-serving. :coffee2
rgcraig
07-03-2008, 09:44 AM
Apples and oranges ... the words she replaced were still about her country ... not her religious affiliation ...
Creative thought, PM, however ... just like Rene.
Really? Which is HER country?
The issue isnt Slavery Dan. The issue here is the harm this person has done to race relations.
you dont pour battery acid in an open wound and suggest your attempting to help.
That's the greater question at hand ... whether it should be viewed as such ... and whether this is battery acid ... or a pin prick.
Some things are just people using their freedoms ... creatively or politcally ... but swimming in them nonetheless ...
To equate a black woman who sang a patriotic song with words of another equally patriotic song ... is not battery acid....
More can be said about recent vandalism in Orlando in which 60 cars were trashed w/ racial slurs against Obama ...
http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/car.jpg
Is talk radio in a huffy over this? Probably not.
StillStanding
07-03-2008, 09:49 AM
Apples and oranges ... the words she replaced were still about her country ... not her religious affiliation ...
Creative thought, PM, however ... just like Rene.
OK..I'll bite! (apples and oranges)
Lets say I change the words which were still about my pledge to the good ole USA! In other words, I recited my own pledge of allegiance at a public event. Would you be upset?
pelathais
07-03-2008, 09:51 AM
No, that would be like telling a mother or child who has suffered domestic or sexual abuse at the hands of a black man, to not suspect all black men of having the same lack of character. And to add as a footnote, that white men can be abusive as well. It is the character of the person, not the color of the skin that is important.
It is bothersome when black people, who have risen up against inequality and racism, then express their own racism by denigrating the character of white people as a whole, instead of recognizing that color doesn't matter.
I seem to remember hearing someone talk about having a "Dream" where this actually was the case.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PbUtL_0vAJk
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 09:52 AM
Is talk radio in a huffy over this? Probably not.[/B]
What on earth do you have against talk radio? It's a LOT more intelligent than the TV Snooze presented by CNN, ABC News, CBS or even Fox News!!!!
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 09:53 AM
vandals are criminals, not taken seriously in there message
Mrs. LPW
07-03-2008, 09:54 AM
I disagree. The occasion was the mayor's annual State of the City address. Such formal functions always open with the National Anthem. If the mayor's lackeys had wanted to embellish the program (and I'm certain they had their own ideas) the certainly could have done so without offending the sensibilities of everyone else in the city.
And to address the question about support for the singer that was raised by another poster - the local news has been strangely silent on this issue. It seems that no one has stepped up to support this woman's actions. And she herself has apologized.
"Lift E'vry Voice" is a swell song. But what this artist did with it was indefensible. She herself seems to have realized that.
Thanks... I had wondered how it would play out. So she did apologize.
That's the greater question at hand ... whether it should be viewed as such ... and whether this is battery acid ... or a pin prick.
Some things are just people using their freedoms ... creatively or politcally ... but swimming in them nonetheless ...
To equate a black woman who sang a patriotic song with words of another equally patriotic song ... is not battery acid....
More can be said about recent vandalism in Orlando in which 60 cars were trashed w/ racial slurs against Obama ...
http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/27969/thumbs/s-VANDALS-large.jpg
Is talk radio in a huffy over this? Probably not.
Dan, as I said earlier, Im not mad at her. But once again, your tact here is telling a great deal of people what they should be thinking.
This is the bigger issue.
sorry bro. while I look at this as something other than a personal affront, I cannot agree with you either. regardless of what you think people should think and regardless of how you think people should react, people will respond from their own experience and nither you nor this lady have a right to suggest that "white" people should be fine with this.
the facts are what matters. preception is reality. in this case, regardless of what you think it should be, this act was equal to pouring battery acid in an open (if healing) wound.
rgcraig
07-03-2008, 09:55 AM
Is talk radio in a huffy over this? Probably not.
What is your reference to talk radio?
The first post was a clip on TV......not talk radio. NO ONE has mentioned talk radio.
This is a forum and we are discussing what we saw on a clip from the news on TV.
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 09:55 AM
I seem to remember hearing someone talk about having a "Dream" where this actually was the case.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PbUtL_0vAJk
Nice number of white folks in that crowd. I'm sure they were just there for political reasons, though, or to get their faces on the tube. Surely not because they actually cared about race issues. :tic
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 09:56 AM
at least she had the decency to apologize for that
OK..I'll bite! (apples and oranges)
Lets say I change the words which were still about my pledge to the good ole USA! In other words, I recited my own pledge of allegiance at a public event. Would you be upset?
No, I wouldn't be upset ... I'd celebrate a nation that allows you to do so ... and that you are not a robot .. but rather someone w/ a heartfelt desire for love of country to be creative enough and take the time to write your own pledge of allegiance ...
Maybe the geezer in the shorts above his knees w/ white tube socks and black patent loafers would be ?
You know what ... maybe I'm not normal.
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 09:57 AM
What is your reference to talk radio?
The first post was a clip on TV......not talk radio. NO ONE has mentioned talk radio.
This is a forum and we are discussing what we saw on a clip from the news on TV.
I have no idea--DA mentioned it first. (As far as I know)
Nice number of white folks in that crowd. I'm sure they were just there for political reasons, though, or to get their faces on the tube. Surely not because they actually cared about race issues. :tic
There were white abolitionists too ... and men who did this ....
rgcraig
07-03-2008, 09:58 AM
You know what ... maybe I'm not normal.
LOL!
I wonder how many people will make this their signature line!!!!
Sorry DA - - couldn't resist!
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 09:59 AM
thanks for recognizing you arent normal dan, does cass know this, lol
Mrs. LPW
07-03-2008, 09:59 AM
You know what ... maybe I'm not normal.
Daniel's revelation!
:toofunny
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 10:02 AM
There were white abolitionist too ... and men who did this ....
Did you share this horrible photo just for shock value, or do you think I am uneducated?
This is the reason conversations with you can become so annoying, Daniel, because you tend to assume your readers are stupid or ignorant--or both.
Did you share this horrible photo just for shock value, or do you think I am uneducated?
This is the reason conversations with you can become so annoying, Daniel, because you tend to assume your readers are stupid or ignorant--or both.
Miss B ... I was educated enough to know that there were whites who marched side by side w/ those in the Civil Rights movement ....
yet you point out elements of an image (youtube video) but somehow your intelligence is insulted when I add to the perspective as to why they were marching on Washington ...
A bit disingenuous I believe ...
Sorry if all facets of truth offends you.
Dan the moral equivalence argument doesn't work. Nobody here thinks burning black folk is ok. Nobody here denies the black experience in America has been a great struggle.
Dan the moral equivalence argument doesn't work. Nobody here thinks burning black folk is ok. Nobody here denies the black experience in America has been a great struggle.
And no one denies some whites did not agree w/ the horrific reality our gov't (we the people) sanctioned for centuries.
And were heroic in trying to combat this prolific evil.
Michael Phelps
07-03-2008, 10:11 AM
And no one denies some whites did not agree w/ the reality our gov't sanctioned for centuries.
Did anyone on this forum personally own slaves?
Did anyone on this forum personally march in the Civil Rights marches?
My point is, we can all debate the great injustices done to any race, going back centuries.
But, how do we resolve it in our generation? Is the answer to create a society where those who were wronged in the past now have greater privilege than anyone else? Should we pay reparations? Should we grant free education, or the best jobs to those of a particular race or creed, just BECAUSE they are of that particular race or creed?
I see a lot of outrage about the sins of the past, and yet, the remedy, due to it's mere nature, has created a reverse injustice.
And no one denies some whites did not agree w/ the horrific reality our gov't (we the people) sanctioned for centuries.
Dan the sad thing is, you are doing more harm to your cause than good.
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 10:15 AM
Miss B ... I was educated enough to know that there were whites who marched side by side w/ those in the Civil Rights movement ....
yet you point out elements of a photo but somehow your intelligence is insulted when I add to the perspective ...
A bit disingenuous I believe ...
Sorry if all facets of truth offends you.
No, graphic photos offend me, and while I have viewed them during educational processes (self-imposed or otherwise), I don't like to be surprised with them. Common sense, Daniel, common sense.
My intelligence is insulted, because you seem to assume that I've never seen such a photo before, or that perhaps putting it within your post will change my perspective, or as you "add to the perspective" perhaps my views will be more well rounded?
I appreciate the video, because it is one that promotes unity and peace, (and illustrates it with both blacks and whites walking together) NOT to be confused with your photo which is meant to titillate or incite anger or other heavy emotion.
You really have difficulty focusing on a topic, don't you? Do you need some Ritalin?
YOU are the one who first denigrated white men as the sole cause for slavery. (Via your post which didn't acknowledge other perpetrators, or excuse the white men and women who did NOT participate) So don't pretend that your perspective is balanced, or that you have presented your views in such a way as to lead the reader to believe you have balanced perspective.
Did anyone on this forum personally own slaves?
Did anyone on this forum personally march in the Civil Rights marches?
My point is, we can all debate the great injustices done to any race, going back centuries.
But, how do we resolve it in our generation? Is the answer to create a society where those who were wronged in the past now have greater privilege than anyone else? Should we pay reparations? Should we grant free education, or the best jobs to those of a particular race or creed, just BECAUSE they are of that particular race or creed?
I see a lot of outrage about the sins of the past, and yet, the remedy, due to it's mere nature, has created a reverse injustice.
No to the first few questions ...
How do we solve this ???.. that's what we're all trying to figure out ...
Thankfully we've made huge strides ...
This is not about white guilt, Mike ...
You owe no one but the recognition that they may be carrying legitimate offenses which take time to heal ... this is centuries in the making .... and that we as a nation sometimes frown about people celebrating their new found freedoms even if we don't agree w/ their politics or mode of expression.
YOU are the one who first denigrated white men as the sole cause for slavery. (Via your post which didn't acknowledge other perpetrators, or excuse the white men and women who did NOT participate) So don't pretend that your perspective is balanced, or that you have presented your views in such a way as to lead the reader to believe you have balanced perspective.
Did no such thing ... my attempt here is not to appear balanced but to offer a perspective to a thread that does not have another varying view ... thus trying to bring it back to the center ... capisce?
*pops 3 Ritalins*
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 10:19 AM
No to the first few questions ...
How do we solve .. that's what we're all trying to figure out ...
Thankfully we've made huge strides ...
This is not about white guilt, Mike ...
You owe no one but the recognition that they may be carry legitimate offenses and that we as a nation sometimes frown about people celebrating their freedoms even if we don't agree w/ their politics or mode of expression.
*sigh*
You have extrapolated offense at inappropriate behavior into freedom-suppression and "frowning" at the celebration of said freedom[s].
And you want us to believe you are balanced. :drama
*sigh*
You have extrapolated offense at inappropriate behavior into freedom-suppression and "frowning" at the celebration of said freedom[s].
And you want us to believe you are balanced. :drama
How can I be balanced if I need Ritalin? lol
Michael Phelps
07-03-2008, 10:20 AM
No to the first few questions ...
How do we solve .. that's what we're all trying to figure out ...
Thankfully we've made huge strides ...
This is not about white guilt, Mike ...
You owe no one but the recognition that they may be carry legitimate offenses and that we as a nation sometimes frown about people celebrating their freedoms even if we don't agree w/ their politics or mode of expression.
It's time to let it go.
We all understand that there were undeniable injustices committed. However, sometimes I think the so called "civil rights" leaders, the ones screaming for equality, are keeping the wounds open.
And, continually rehashing the past, replete with examples and graphic pictures, are not helping the healing process.
If we all strive for a truly "equal" America, then we'll support and man, woman, boy, girl of any race, creed, nation and tongue in their pursuit of the same opportunites.
For the victims (who are not victims, but possible children and grandchildren of victims) to continually rub these injustices in the face of the offenders (who are not offenders, but possible children and grandchildren of offenders) is not only a counterproductive action, but also a divisive and hate perpetuating action.
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 10:24 AM
ok dan is not normal he has admitted such
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 10:25 AM
Did no such thing ... my attempt here is not to appear balanced but to offer a perspective to a thread that does not have another varying view ... thus trying to bring it back to the center ... capisce?
*pops 3 Ritalins*
Playing the devil's advocate, or posting what you really think?
It really isn't necessary, you know, because there are black men and women who post on this forum, whose views I would actually prefer to hear, than someone who is just pretending he knows what its like to be persecuted and enslaved.
*sigh*
You have extrapolated offense at inappropriate behavior into freedom-suppression and "frowning" at the celebration of said freedom[s].
And you want us to believe you are balanced. :drama
Inappropriate behavior ... who says and why? Because it was rude and not patriotic?
Or because it came from a black standard that was used?
You need decide why you are calling this inappropriate and whether this in insult to all or just a few ....
This slaps in you the face because ????
Playing the devil's advocate, or posting what you really think?
It really isn't necessary, you know, because there are black men and women who post on this forum, whose views I would actually prefer to hear, than someone who is just pretending he knows what its like to be persecuted and enslaved.
No I'm not African-American ... but have mixed blood, Miss B, as a person of Caribbean heritage. My grandmother was black Puerto Rican ... and so I stand somewhere in between in the rainbow of bleeding hues that God has created.
And still have faced racism as a man of color ... not even close however to what others have ... including family members and kinsmen who are of a darker hue.
Now that we have discussed pedigree ...
Michael Phelps
07-03-2008, 10:30 AM
Inappropriate behavior ... who says and why? Because it was rude and not patriotic?
Or because it came from a black standard that was used?
You need decide why you are calling this inappropriate and whether this in insult to all or just a few ....
This slaps in you the face because ????
Daniel,
No offense, but to hear you plead the case of African Americans who suffered thru slavery and racial abuse throughout the 60's, 70's, etc. is like me bemoaning the horrendous working conditions and degrading objectification endured by Vegas burlesque dancers.
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 10:31 AM
Inappropriate behavior ... who says and why? Because it was rude and not patriotic?
Or because it came from a black standard that was used?
I couldn't care less where it came from, but I think that YOU believe that is the reason I care. Which explains your effrontery on this thread.
You need decide why you are calling this inappropriate and whether this in insult to all or just a few ....
Again, I've already explained my opinions, clearly and honestly. I "need to decide?" You are implying that I have some deeper, darker motive that perhaps I'm even unaware of. And you don't see how that is condescending?
This slaps in you the face because ????
It doesn't "slap me in the face." I said it was inappropriate on her part--stupid at best, divisive at worst.
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 10:34 AM
No I'm not African-American ... but have mixed blood, Miss B, as a person of Caribbean heritage. My grandmother was black Puerto Rican ... and so I stand somewhere in between in the rainbow of bleeding hues that God has created.
And still have faced racism as a man of color ... not even close however to what others have ... including family members and kinsmen who are of a darker hue.
Now that we have discussed pedigree ...
YOU have discussed pedigree--I haven't offered mine, and I'll leave you with your assumption that I'm purely white, descended no doubt from German fascists with the abuse of Jews, blacks and all other minorities in my background.
, than someone who is just pretending he knows what its like to be persecuted and enslaved.
In case you missed what you posted. Sorry if you can't say gradations.
:crazywalls
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 10:36 AM
Daniel,
No offense, but to hear you plead the case of African Americans who suffered thru slavery and racial abuse throughout the 60's, 70's, etc. is like me bemoaning the horrendous working conditions and degrading objectification endured by Vegas burlesque dancers.
LOL!!! Nicely put, Michael! :D
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 10:38 AM
In case you missed what you posted. Sorry if you can't say gradations.
:crazywalls
What? I know you think you're persecuted. :drama
I don't even know what you mean by "gradations." Degrees of what? You're not even at a 0.1 on the Persecution Richter Scale. If you were being hit by a Persecution Tornado, it'd be a -F10.
Brad Murphy
07-03-2008, 10:39 AM
I keep trying to decide how to respond on this thread, I just don't get it. Can any group create their own anthem and start singing it in place of the real national anthem... I guess they could, but why? Is there an Irish railroad workers anthem that someone forgot to teach me?
I keep trying to decide how to respond on this thread, I just don't get it. Can any group create their own anthem and start singing it in place of the real national anthem... I guess they could, but why? Is there an Irish railroad workers anthem that someone forgot to teach me?
Oh Danny Boy ... good song.
Baron1710
07-03-2008, 10:40 AM
Daniel,
No offense, but to hear you plead the case of African Americans who suffered thru slavery and racial abuse throughout the 60's, 70's, etc. is like me bemoaning the horrendous working conditions and degrading objectification endured by Vegas burlesque dancers.
Isn't this similar to saying a man can't discuss abortion because he doesn't know what it is to be pregnant?
Michael Phelps
07-03-2008, 10:40 AM
In case you missed what you posted. Sorry if you can't say gradations.
:crazywalls
Daniel,
Until you can stand up and say that you were kept in slavery, or even forced to ride in the back of the bus, drink from a different water fountain, denied service in certain restaurants, or denied employment because of your color, don't even pretend to know what it's like to be persecuted for your race.
I'm with Miss B, turn the pulpit over to someone who's actually been there, and let's hear what they have to say.
Isn't this similar to saying a man can't discuss abortion because he doesn't know what it is to be pregnant?
Oops ... yeah. Good one.
Michael Phelps
07-03-2008, 10:41 AM
Isn't this similar to saying a man can't discuss abortion because he doesn't know what it is to be pregnant?
No, the man can discuss it, but he shouldn't be so foolish as to try and convince everyone that he knows first hand, because he's had one.
Adino
07-03-2008, 10:42 AM
And it is still going on today in more subtle ways. I will tell you a little story that happened at a high school football game to me and a couple of my friends and co-workers who are black. We were walking up the ramp to the stadium seats and were walking past a couple of prominent women in our little town. As they walked past instead of saying hello, they kind of lowered their heads a little and said "girls". They walked past and I was in shock, I asked one of my friends does that happen often, she said all the time Cindy, all the time. She said you see, we clean their houses too. It literally brought tears to my eyes I was so angry. One of my friends said Cindy that is just the way it is. This was in the 90's BTW.A second cousin of mine was hung in his backyard by others at his high school. My uncle showed up just in time to save his life. He found him dangling from a pole with a clothesline wrapped around his neck about to lose consciousness. After surviving this encounter, the same family member was again assaulted on the way home from school. This time the young attackers threw him in a garage, doused him with gasoline and lit him on fire. Miraculously, he did survive, but bears horrible scars of the incident to this day.
The school was in Detroit. My family member was white, his assaulters black.
It is said that the first question recorded in Scripture by man is "Am I my brother's keeper?"
It is said that the rest of the bible goes on to answer this question with an emphatic YES. We are the keepers of our brethren.
Lord, help us to be the keepers of all our brethren regardless of color.
national - of, pertaining to, or maintained by a nation as an organized whole or independent political unit
anthem - a song, as of praise, devotion, or patriotism
The national anthem is a song of praise, devotion and patriotism of, pertaining to, or maintained by our nation as an organized whole.
It is a song of recognized unity. Those asked to sing it are given the honor of reminding the audience, through a nationally recognized anthem, of who they are as a united people. They are Americans in the United States of America. They are brethren, regardless of color, sharing the same national pride.
It is my opinion that incidents like the one at the beginning of this thread call into question whether being unified as a people in this nation of diversity is the ultimate desire of many of those living in this land of the free and home of the brave. Such incidents call for the recognition of diversity rather than the recognition of unity. The national anthem, being a cry for the unity of all factions within the nation as a whole, was substituted for a song calling for the recognition of a particular faction within the nation. It focused on diversity rather than on unity.
Unfortunately, I think one of our choices for president would prove to be just as devisive.
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 10:44 AM
I've encountered racism, and I find it to be repugnant. Thing is, I recognize it, even in subtle forms, in both black and white people, and I dislike it either way.
It is my firm opinion that replacing American symbolism with Black symbolism is a subtle form of racism. And I don't like it.
Daniel,
Until you can stand up and say that you were kept in slavery, or even forced to ride in the back of the bus, drink from a different water fountain, denied service in certain restaurants, or denied employment because of your color, don't even pretend to know what it's like to be persecuted for your race.
I'm with Miss B, turn the pulpit over to someone who's actually been there, and let's hear what they have to say.
I would love to hear this viewpoint ... keeping in mind this forum is overwhelmingly white ...
My peeps came in the 1950's ... (on airplanes) but rest assured they faced and participated in racial division on the islands also ... (Mainly Dominican Republic where mom is from)
Puerto Rico, where dad is from, has been a bastion of mixing between races for centuries ... Tainos (natives), peninsulares (Spaniards) and blacks from West Africa.
A second cousin of mine was hung in his backyard by others at his high school. My uncle showed up just in time to save his life. He found him dangling from a pole with a clothesline wrapped around his neck about to lose consciousness. After surviving this encounter, the same family member was again assaulted on the way home from school. This time the young attackers threw him in a garage, doused him with gasoline and lit him on fire. Miraculously, he did survive, but bears horrible scars of the incident to this day.
The school was in Detroit. My family member was white, his assaulters black.
It is said that the first question recorded in Scripture by man is "Am I my brother's keeper?"
It is said that the rest of the bible goes on to answer this question with an emphatic YES. We are the keepers of our brethren.
Lord, help us to be the keepers of all our brethren regardless of color.
national - of, pertaining to, or maintained by a nation as an organized whole or independent political unit
anthem - a song, as of praise, devotion, or patriotism
The national anthem is a song of praise, devotion and patriotism of, pertaining to, or maintained by our nation as an organized whole.
It is a song of recognized unity. Those asked to sing it are given the honor of reminding the audience, through a nationally recognized anthem, of who they are as a united people. They are Americans in the United States of America. They are brethren, regardless of color, sharing the same national pride.
It is my opinion that incidents like the one at the beginning of this thread call into question whether being unified as a people in this nation of diversity is the ultimate desire of many of those living in this land of the free and home of the brave. Such incidents call for the recognition of diversity rather than the recognition of unity. The national anthem, being a cry for the unity of all factions within the nation as a whole, was substituted for a song calling for the recognition of a particular faction within the nation. It focused on diversity rather than on unity.
Unfortunately, I think one of our choices for president would prove to be just as devisive.
Adino, it looks like you and I have finally found common ground.
Michael Phelps
07-03-2008, 10:45 AM
A second cousin of mine was hung in his backyard by others at his high school. My uncle showed up just in time to save his life. He found him dangling from a pole with a clothesline wrapped around his neck about to lose consciousness. After surviving this encounter, the same family member was again assaulted on the way home from school. This time the young attackers threw him in a garage, doused him with gasoline and lit him on fire. Miraculously, he did survive, but bears horrible scars of the incident to this day.
The school was in Detroit. My family member was white, his assaulters black.
It is said that the first question recorded in Scripture by man is "Am I my brother's keeper?"
It is said that the rest of the bible goes on to answer this question with an emphatic YES. We are the keepers of our brethren.
Lord, help us to be the keepers of all our brethren regardless of color.
national - of, pertaining to, or maintained by a nation as an organized whole or independent political unit
anthem - a song, as of praise, devotion, or patriotism
The national anthem is a song of praise, devotion and patriotism of, pertaining to, or maintained by our nation as an organized whole.
It is a song of recognized unity. Those asked to sing it are given the honor of reminding the audience, through a nationally recognized anthem, of who they are as a united people. They are Americans in the United States of America. They are brethren, regardless of color, sharing the same national pride.
It is my opinion that incidents like the one at the beginning of this thread call into question whether being unified as a people in this nation of diversity is the ultimate desire of many of those living in this land of the free and home of the brave. Such incidents call for the recognition of diversity rather than the recognition of unity. The national anthem, being a cry for the unity of all factions within the nation as a whole, was substituted for a song calling for the recognition of a particular faction within the nation. It focused on diversity rather than on unity.
Unfortunately, I think one of our choices for president would prove to be just as devisive.
Very well said, Adino. Excellent summation.
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 10:46 AM
A second cousin of mine was hung in his backyard by others at his high school. My uncle showed up just in time to save his life. He found him dangling from a pole with a clothesline wrapped around his neck about to lose consciousness. After surviving this encounter, the same family member was again assaulted on the way home from school. This time the young attackers threw him in a garage, doused him with gasoline and lit him on fire. Miraculously, he did survive, but bears horrible scars of the incident to this day.
The school was in Detroit. My family member was white, his assaulters black.
It is said that the first question recorded in Scripture by man is "Am I my brother's keeper?"
It is said that the rest of the bible goes on to answer this question with an emphatic YES. We are the keepers of our brethren.
Lord, help us to be the keepers of all our brethren regardless of color.
national - of, pertaining to, or maintained by a nation as an organized whole or independent political unit
anthem - a song, as of praise, devotion, or patriotism
The national anthem is a song of praise, devotion and patriotism of, pertaining to, or maintained by our nation as an organized whole.
It is a song of recognized unity. Those asked to sing it are given the honor of reminding the audience, through a nationally recognized anthem, of who they are as a united people. They are Americans in the United States of America. They are brethren, regardless of color, sharing the same national pride.
It is my opinion that incidents like the one at the beginning of this thread call into question whether being unified as a people in this nation of diversity is the ultimate desire of many of those living in this land of the free and home of the brave. Such incidents call for the recognition of diversity rather than the recognition of unity. The national anthem, being a cry for the unity of all factions within the nation as a whole, was substituted for a song calling for the recognition of a particular faction within the nation. It focused on diversity rather than on unity.
Unfortunately, I think one of our choices for president would prove to be just as divisive.
Excellent post.
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 10:46 AM
good post adino
It is my firm opinion that replacing American symbolism with Black symbolism is a subtle form of racism. And I don't like it.
Okay ... glad you've cut to the heart of the matter to what's really bothering you about this.
Michael Phelps
07-03-2008, 10:47 AM
I would love to hear this viewpoint ... keeping in mind this forum is overwhelmingly white ...
My peeps came in the 1950's ... (on airplanes) but rest assured they faced and participated in racial division on the islands also ... (Mainly Dominican Republic where mom is from)
Puerto Rico, where dad is from, has been a bastion of mixing between races for centuries ... Tainos (natives), peninsulares (Spaniards) and blacks from West Africa.
Understood. I'm not denying your heritage, or certain injustices your forefathers may have suffered.
I'm asking have YOU ever experienced such racism?
I have been passed over for a job simply because I was a white male. I was told I was the most qualified, but there was a diversity quote that had to be filled.
I'm not bitter about it, I actually am much happier with the job I have now.
My point is this - inequality works both ways. If it's truly the goal of these so called civil rights leaders to have equality, there is still a long way to go. And, it's not necessarily on the side of the road one may think.
Unfortunately, I think one of our choices for president would prove to be just as devisive.
I think it would unify.
There is an inverse argument to be said about a nation that has had only White Male Anglo Saxon Protestants as their chief leader .... except for that pope loving Catholic, Kennedy.
But I think enough thought has been provoked for today.
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 10:51 AM
live around an indian reservation you will see some real racism, from them, been there done that, dt
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 10:52 AM
Okay ... glad you've cut to the heart of the matter to what's really bothering you about this.
And here I thought I was being clear all along.
LOL!!!!
I said it from the very beginning...from a standpoint of etiquette, it was impolite and inappropriate. From the standpoint of politics (under guise of patriotism), it was ineffective and divisive. From one singer to another--she probably won't get anymore invitations to public events of this nature.
The National Anthem is about patriotism and as Adino pointed out--unity. Ms. Rene showed a lack of patriotism, and IMO, she disrespected her fellow Americans.
And by the way, if you think it is simply because she is black that I object, you are even more wrong. Do you think I would be upset if the KKK inserted their "white" version into the National Anthem? Or if someone sang the anthem from any other country instead?
live around an indian reservation you will see some real racism, from them, been there done that, dt
Imagine and we gave them that piece of land .... gasp *the nerve*
Michael Phelps
07-03-2008, 10:53 AM
I think it would unify.
There is an inverse argument to be said about a nation that has had only White Male Anglo Saxon Protestants as their chief leader .... except for that pope loving Catholic, Kennedy.
But I think enough thought has been provoked for today.
I, for one, do not have any issue with a candidate's gender or color, I have problems with their agenda if it's blatantly divisive.
MikeinAR
07-03-2008, 10:54 AM
It's "the" National Anthem for goodness sakes. I mean are we going to open it up for every sort of artistic expression by every race and creed of people that make up this country so that everyone feels like the national anthem represents them more accurately?
I always thought the national anthem was more to honor a country and not a certain race, gender or creed.
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 10:54 AM
I think it would unify.
There is an inverse argument to be said about a nation that has had only White Male Anglo Saxon Protestants as their chief leader .... except for that pope loving Catholic, Kennedy.
But I think enough thought has been provoked for today.
disagree completely dan, if obama is elected, things will be worse for all, especially if he proves to be incompetent, my opinion of course, dt
I, for one, do not have any issue with a candidate's gender or color, I have problems with their agenda if it's blatantly divisive.
Obama has been very careful overall not to allow those this "nefarious" agenda to the forefront...
He's been American in his appeal
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 10:55 AM
I, for one, do not have any issue with a candidate's gender or color, I have problems with their agenda if it's blatantly divisive.
Exactly.
Michael Phelps
07-03-2008, 10:55 AM
disagree completely dan, if obama is elected, thongs will be worse for all, especially if he proves to be incompetent, my opinion of course, dt
I'm sorry, but if Obama gets elected, do we ALL have to start wearing thongs??????:bliss
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 10:55 AM
disagree completely dan, if obama is elected, thongs will be worse for all, especially if he proves to be incompetent, my opinion of course, dt
Will it be the design? Less elastic? :coffee2
disagree completely dan, if obama is elected, thongs will be worse for all, especially if he proves to be incompetent, my opinion of course, dt
Incompetent to whom?
He's got the goods as do many other men and women of his stature of various backgrounds.... to do be great if not competent.
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 10:56 AM
:D
Baron1710
07-03-2008, 10:56 AM
disagree completely dan, if obama is elected, thongs will be worse for all, especially if he proves to be incompetent, my opinion of course, dt
Who wears thongs anyway?
Who wears thongs anyway?
What happens in the South ... according to DT ... stays in the South.
Michael Phelps
07-03-2008, 10:58 AM
Who wears thongs anyway?
Apparently, if Obama is elected, all of us.
Order today! Beat the rush!
go to (removed just in case it's an actual website)
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 10:59 AM
Apparently, if Obama is elected, all of us.
Order today! Beat the rush!
go to victor'ssecret.com
:toofunny :toofunny :toofunny
Thongs should be ABOLISHED--at least for certain groups of people. I'm quite sure, no one named Victor should be allowed to own one.
Michael Phelps
07-03-2008, 11:00 AM
:toofunny :toofunny :toofunny
Thongs should be ABOLISHED--at least for certain groups of people. I'm quite sure, no one named Victor should be allowed to own one.
Oh great, here we go again.............such anti-thong racism must not be tolerated here!
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 11:00 AM
Incompetent to whom?
He's got the goods as do many other men and women of his stature of various backgrounds.... to do be great if not competent.
i dont think so but you believe what you want dan, i dont think he is a leader at all, just somebodys puppet, changes his mind every day, lol
i dont think so but you believe what you want dan, i dont think he is a leader at all, just somebodys puppet, changes his mind every day, lol
Have you listened to talk radio today?
:boxing
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 11:01 AM
funny guys one hand again sorry for the typo
Baron1710
07-03-2008, 11:02 AM
Apparently, if Obama is elected, all of us.
Order today! Beat the rush!
go to (removed just in case it's an actual website)
MOW will be so bummed he will have to trade in his speedo for a thong.
Michael Phelps
07-03-2008, 11:02 AM
funny guys one hand again sorry for the typo
No problem, you notice how we all jumped on it at once!
We're here for you, Bro.........
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 11:02 AM
Have you listened to talk radio today?
:boxing
no dan i work for a living, even when hurt
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 11:02 AM
funny guys one hand again sorry for the typo
Comic Relief is important. :bliss
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 11:03 AM
No problem, you notice how we all jumped on it at once!
We're here for you, Bro.........
thanks i think, dt
Baron1710
07-03-2008, 11:03 AM
funny guys one hand again sorry for the typo
It’s all good, this is more entertaining than talking about Obama anyway.
Comic Relief is important. :bliss
It was needed.
*pops the remaining vial of Ritilin*
Brad Murphy
07-03-2008, 11:04 AM
Are there really people here who are going to vote for Obama or is that just a joke?
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 11:05 AM
It was needed.
*pops the remaining vial of Ritilin*
Well, you've succeeded in distracting me from WORK all morning, so you can be proud of yourself for SOMEthing. :D
I'm OUT!!!!
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 11:05 AM
you need something stronger dan that ritalin aint gettin r done, lol
Are there really people here who are going to vote for Obama or is that just a joke?
http://lancemannion.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/donkey.jpg
ME ... OOOH .... PICK ME!!!
I am.
Well, you've succeeded in distracting me from WORK all morning, so you can be proud of yourself for SOMEthing. :D
I'm OUT!!!!
Well, I love you in the love of Christ ... even if you're German.
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 11:10 AM
it isad but true people on this forum are voting for the myth of bho
rgcraig
07-03-2008, 11:13 AM
Obama has been very careful overall not to allow those this "nefarious" agenda to the forefront...
He's been American in his appeal
While he's trying to get the vote......it's after the voting that concerns me!
rgcraig
07-03-2008, 11:17 AM
:toofunny :toofunny :toofunny
Thongs should be ABOLISHED--at least for certain groups of people. I'm quite sure, no one named Victor should be allowed to own one.
Kind of like - - just because they make it in your size doesn't mean you should wear it?
While he's trying to get the vote......it's after the voting that concerns me!
Are you saying he's incapable of being an American first ... or is this fear of the unknown, Renda?
DividedThigh
07-03-2008, 11:19 AM
keep kiddin yourself dan, dt
rgcraig
07-03-2008, 11:20 AM
Are you saying he's incapable of being an American first ... or is this fear of the unknown, Renda?
No fear...just concern of the unknown.
DT - what word were you going for instead of thong?
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 11:20 AM
Kind of like - - just because they make it in your size doesn't mean you should wear it?
Exactly! :toofunny
Adino
07-03-2008, 11:23 AM
http://lancemannion.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/donkey.jpg
ME ... OOOH .... PICK ME!!!
I am.
Thus the reason the Democrat Party is represented by a jackask :slaphappy
JUST KIDDING!!! Just couldn't resist. You made it so easy! You know I love ya, bro!
Cindy
07-03-2008, 11:25 AM
sweetpea-"Yes, white men were slave owners - but it was the black man who originally SOLD other black men to the white man. "
when you said this, I had to look it up, I hadn't heard this before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States
In the begining of the 2nd paragraph, it says it.
oh, by the way, great dialoge. We need to discuss some things out in the open. I don't mean to be ugly, but there is alot of problems for African Americans, but at the same time, when I see (the latest) a commercial for a show called "what is is to be black in America", I cringe and roll my eyes. What if we had a programe on tv about "What's it's like to be white in America."? Oh, that would go over real great..yeah.
And cnesttx, I believe that.It is sad. It does still happen today. Are they older women? The older generation still had ideals and patterns ingrained into them. It goes both sides though too.
We are pretty much the same age, but their *station* in life, for want of a better word, I guess sets their view of the world. This is how they view black women as *girls*, not an equal in any way. They gave absolutely no thought I guess, to how dehumanizing or humiliating it was to speak that word to them. I think more especially since I was walking with them and I am white. It really opened my eyes to the racism that still lives in some people's minds and hearts. I did lose any respect I may have had of them.
Cindy
07-03-2008, 11:38 AM
Kind of like - - just because they make it in your size doesn't mean you should wear it?
And EVERYONE said..........AMEN!
ForeverBlessed
07-03-2008, 12:03 PM
Hmmm. Maybe you need to have this conversation with someone else, because I am VERY rigid about this sort of thing.
In my opinion:
1. From a patriotic standpoint, she missed the mark.
2. From a standpoint of etiquette, she missed the mark.
3. From one singer to another, she missed the mark.
I agree with you MssB... on all three points.
As someone who has sang the Anthem at our Republican convention... I couldn't have imagined disrespecting those who gave me the opportunity and honor of singing in the first place.
tstew
07-03-2008, 12:04 PM
Interesting thread. Somebody suggested perspective from some black folk...so here goes....
I honestly find some of the historic symbols of patriotism a little ironic at best and somewhat disingenuous at worst. Can you imagine hearing some of the beautiful lyrics about freedom and liberty and God-given rights while at the same time recognizing that this was penned, quoted, and sang at a time when slavery was embraced based on color.
"O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave" just seems ironic. I'm not even sure how one could say "With liberty and justice for all" with a straight face given the reality of the time.
Without question there were also evil Africans who participated in the slave trade. I guess one of the differences for me is that they were not claiming to be a "Christian" nation with Christ-like ideals. They were not saying and writing the same kinds of things about about "all men being created equal" and certain Jehovah God-given rights. They were not claiming to be people of prayer and people who knew God.
I don't believe the lady meant to be disrespectful, but she may have been misguided in her efforts. It just seems to me that the races hold the traditional symbols at different levels of sacredness.
Interesting thread. Somebody suggested perspective from some black folk...so here goes....
I honestly find some of the historic symbols of patriotism a little ironic at best and somewhat disingenuous at worst. Can you imagine hearing some of the beautiful lyrics about freedom and liberty and God-given rights while at the same time recognizing that this was penned, quoted, and sang at a time when slavery was embraced based on color.
"O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave" just seems ironic. I'm not even sure how one could say "With liberty and justice for all" with a straight face given the reality of the time.
Without question there were also evil Africans who participated in the slave trade. I guess one of the differences for me is that they were not claiming to be a "Christian" nation with Christ-like ideals. They were not saying and writing the same kinds of things about about "all men being created equal" and certain Jehovah God-given rights. They were not claiming to be people of prayer and people who knew God.
I don't believe the lady meant to be disrespectful, but she may have been misguided in her efforts. It just seems to me that the races hold the traditional symbols at different levels of sacredness.
Thank you, TS ... You've articulated this better than I have.
It was a freedom that cost blood. Not just at Bunker Hill but for generations after.
Baron1710
07-03-2008, 12:12 PM
Interesting thread. Somebody suggested perspective from some black folk...so here goes....
I honestly find some of the historic symbols of patriotism a little ironic at best and somewhat disingenuous at worst. Can you imagine hearing some of the beautiful lyrics about freedom and liberty and God-given rights while at the same time recognizing that this was penned, quoted, and sang at a time when slavery was embraced based on color.
"O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave" just seems ironic. I'm not even sure how one could say "With liberty and justice for all" with a straight face given the reality of the time.
Without question there were also evil Africans who participated in the slave trade. I guess one of the differences for me is that they were not claiming to be a "Christian" nation with Christ-like ideals. They were not saying and writing the same kinds of things about about "all men being created equal" and certain Jehovah God-given rights. They were not claiming to be people of prayer and people who knew God.
I don't believe the lady meant to be disrespectful, but she may have been misguided in her efforts. It just seems to me that the races hold the traditional symbols at different levels of sacredness.
Actually when Jefferson penned those words he also included abolition of slavery, it just wouldn't carry the day and it was scratched. Also those were the very words that MLK referred to when trying to bring an end to segregation.
pelathais
07-03-2008, 12:13 PM
That's the greater question at hand ... whether it should be viewed as such ... and whether this is battery acid ... or a pin prick.
Some things are just people using their freedoms ... creatively or politcally ... but swimming in them nonetheless ...
To equate a black woman who sang a patriotic song with words of another equally patriotic song ... is not battery acid....
More can be said about recent vandalism in Orlando in which 60 cars were trashed w/ racial slurs against Obama ...
http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/car.jpg
Is talk radio in a huffy over this? Probably not.
Actually - from the flyers and a rant written out on a business card found at the scene, it seems that this was the work of Leftists. People who are angry that Obama is too conservative for them. I think "Talk Radio" probably gives the antics of people who are that extreme as little exposure as they can.
pelathais
07-03-2008, 12:15 PM
Thanks... I had wondered how it would play out. So she did apologize.
Yes, but it was one of those, "If anybody could possibly have been offended, and I honestly don't know how they could, but if they were, then I'm sorry..." kind of apologies.
tstew
07-03-2008, 12:16 PM
Thank you, TS ... You've articulated this better than I have.
It was a freedom that cost blood. Not just at Bunker Hill but for generations after.
Just to clarify, I am not saying that the races hold America at different levels of respect, I'm just saying that some of the traditional writings might not have quite the same sacredness given the frankly disingenuous nature of what was said verses what was lived and embraced.
I am a military brat, and my father would to this day die for the flag. I would fight to defend my country as well.
Actually - from the flyers and a rant written out on a business card found at the scene, it seems that this was the work of Leftists. People who are angry that Obama is too conservative for them. I think "Talk Radio" probably gives the antics of people who are that extreme as little exposure as they can.
Leftist ... conservative ... does it matter???
I'm confused by this posture, Pelathais.
Talk radio lives for quoting extremist leftists as fodder .... hello.
tstew
07-03-2008, 12:18 PM
Actually when Jefferson penned those words he also included abolition of slavery, it just wouldn't carry the day and it was scratched. Also those were the very words that MLK referred to when trying to bring an end to segregation.
Baron, I'm just saying that all those types of things were written, embraced, repeated, and held as sacred by millions of people who really didn't live by them. I'm not trying to put anyone down, I'm just talking about the reality of some of the sacred writings and how there is room for it to mean a bit more to some people.
Baron1710
07-03-2008, 12:19 PM
Baron, I'm just saying that all those types of things were written, embraced, repeated, and held as sacred by millions of people who really didn't live by them. I'm not trying to put anyone down, I'm just talking about the reality of some of the sacred writings and how there is room for it to mean a bit more to some people.
I hear ya, I just think listening to MLK say those words, he had a lot of respect for them.
Just to clarify, I am not saying that the races hold America at different levels of respect, I'm just saying that some of the traditional writings might not have quite the same sacredness given the frankly disingenuous nature of what was said verses what was lived and embraced.
I am a military brat, and my father would to this day die for the flag. I would fight to defend my country as well.
You're position has been well-articulated and I agree ... that what's often missing in these discussions ..... varying opinions and viewpoints saying the same thing but based on real experiences and a larger scope.
Kay B
07-03-2008, 12:21 PM
good post adino
I Agree.
tstew
07-03-2008, 12:21 PM
I hear ya, I just think listening to MLK say those words, he had a lot of respect for them.
Of course he did. The point is that there were undoubtedly many people in his audience that believed he actually had more respect for those words than some of the people who said them but did not live them.
I hear ya, I just think listening to MLK say those words, he had a lot of respect for them.
He did have respect for them but felt we were not being true to them.
Baron1710
07-03-2008, 12:24 PM
He did have respect for them but felt we were not being true to them.
Did I insinuate otherwise? He was challenging us to live up to our own words.
Did I insinuate otherwise? He was challenging us to live up to our own words.
No but it does not negate that there might be varying degrees of values attached to our "sacred" symbols and no less patriotic.
StillStanding
07-03-2008, 12:28 PM
Interesting thread. Somebody suggested perspective from some black folk...so here goes....
I honestly find some of the historic symbols of patriotism a little ironic at best and somewhat disingenuous at worst. Can you imagine hearing some of the beautiful lyrics about freedom and liberty and God-given rights while at the same time recognizing that this was penned, quoted, and sang at a time when slavery was embraced based on color.
"O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave" just seems ironic. I'm not even sure how one could say "With liberty and justice for all" with a straight face given the reality of the time.
Without question there were also evil Africans who participated in the slave trade. I guess one of the differences for me is that they were not claiming to be a "Christian" nation with Christ-like ideals. They were not saying and writing the same kinds of things about about "all men being created equal" and certain Jehovah God-given rights. They were not claiming to be people of prayer and people who knew God.
I don't believe the lady meant to be disrespectful, but she may have been misguided in her efforts. It just seems to me that the races hold the traditional symbols at different levels of sacredness.
The IDEA of having the land of the free and the home of the brave, the IDEA that all men are created equal, the IDEA of God-given rights were what our country was built on.
At the time of our country's birth, the world-view was skewed as to what those ideas really meant. Evidently, there were some people (even those who called themselves Christians) who didn't think this applied to people of color.
Thank God that today a large majority see these ideas as applying to all people of all races and religions.
Thank God that today a large majority see these ideas as applying to all people of all races and religions.
Amen ...
At the time of our country's birth, the world-view was skewed as to what those ideas really meant. Evidently, there were some people (even those who called themselves Christians) who didn't think this applied to people of color.
Just a historical caveat ....
America was pretty late in the game compared to Europe in abolishing slavery ... and it did take 1 million men to die ...
France abolished slavery in 1794 then reinstated by a dictatorial Napoleon for awhile ....
and we did 40 years after England ... sans civil War
Gives a moment to pause ... and see how entrenched we were in this "world-view".
Of course they were becoming industrialized at a quicker pace .... and a different workforce was soon in demand.
and Cotton was still King ... here.
I will acquiesce that this did not stop France and England's imperialist motives and negative attitudes towards "inferior" people across the globe.
tstew
07-03-2008, 12:39 PM
The IDEA of having the land of the free and the home of the brave, the IDEA that all men are created equal, the IDEA of God-given rights were what our country was built on.
At the time of our country's birth, the world-view was skewed as to what those ideas really meant. Evidently, there were some people (even those who called themselves Christians) who didn't think this applied to people of color.
Thank God that today a large majority see these ideas as applying to all people of all races and religions.
Thankfully so. I am certainly not anti-America. I was just wanting to give a little perspective on how there is room for someone to sincerely love the country and not be impressed to the point of sacred awe by some of the historic writings.
StillStanding
07-03-2008, 01:00 PM
Thankfully so. I am certainly not anti-America. I was just wanting to give a little perspective on how there is room for someone to sincerely love the country and not be impressed to the point of sacred awe by some of the historic writings.
America is not perfect, but it's the best thing going! ;)
You've got a good spirit about you, and I enjoy reading your posts!
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 01:03 PM
Interesting thread. Somebody suggested perspective from some black folk...so here goes....
I honestly find some of the historic symbols of patriotism a little ironic at best and somewhat disingenuous at worst. Can you imagine hearing some of the beautiful lyrics about freedom and liberty and God-given rights while at the same time recognizing that this was penned, quoted, and sang at a time when slavery was embraced based on color.
Very good point. The irony was probably overwhelming, and hard to swallow. Kind of like Christians who talk a good game, but don't live up to their own ideals. Also, to add to the confusion, the Bible doesn't really take a stand against slavery, although it does condemn racism and slavery on principle. Which is why you will find recordings of "good" slave owners and masters in history and in the Bible.
"O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave" just seems ironic. I'm not even sure how one could say "With liberty and justice for all" with a straight face given the reality of the time.
...I don't believe the lady meant to be disrespectful, but she may have been misguided in her efforts. It just seems to me that the races hold the traditional symbols at different levels of sacredness.
This is probably the case, but I think it can arise from a mistaken concept that the black people fought for freedom against America as a whole, when in fact that is not the case. And the ideals our country stands for are applicable to everyone, therefore they should be embraced by all, and when those ideals aren't met, they can be used as a tool to achieve liberty, through tacit reminders to those who are in the position to bring about lasting and meaningful change.
The symbols of our country are symbols of freedom, not symbols of the "white man." It irritates me to see them minimized as such.
As for Ms. Rene--her intentions may have been good, but even if they were, she defeated her purpose, because some things you shouldn't mess with. To me, it would be the same as spray painting "black pride" across the American flag. Objecting to the graffiti is not the same as objecting to "black pride."
Okay, maybe that's apples and oranges. LOL!!! The Black National Anthem is actually a beautiful song, and can't be equated with graffiti.
Hum. The problem is...sometimes as a (sort of :D ) white woman I feel bullied into not expressing offense against what I perceive as racism and an old fashioned Superiority Complex because any objection seems to be perceived as innate racism on my part. Does that make sense?
And to address what Daniel asked earlier--I don't object because it's a black hymn, or whatever it was he implied. I object because she sang a song other than the one she was asked to sing (lack of etiquette), and used her platform for a political statement rather than graciousness, and respecting the honor paid to her with the invitation to sing the National Anthem for such an event in the first place.
It is an honor to be asked, IMO.
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 01:16 PM
Thankfully so. I am certainly not anti-America. I was just wanting to give a little perspective on how there is room for someone to sincerely love the country and not be impressed to the point of sacred awe by some of the historic writings.
Well, I think all of us probably possess ideals we can't or don't live up to. I can write prosaically about motherhood and being the perfect wife for pages on end, but when it comes right down to it, I'm just your average mother and homemaker.
My husband isn't nearly as impressed with my writings as others may be. :D He's more likely to look something over, look at me over the top of the page, and ask, "So when are you going to start doing this?" LOL!!!!
Praxeas
07-03-2008, 01:42 PM
We would sing both anthems at the school I worked at in NYC .... for 9 years...
"Lift Every Voice and sing ... till earth and heaven and ring..."
95% African-American ....
mostly kids w/ West Indian heritage.
Does this make the national anthem the white national anthem? What if there was a white national anthem? What a disunited nation we are that we have to have national anthem for every race
tstew
07-03-2008, 03:07 PM
America is not perfect, but it's the best thing going! ;)
You've got a good spirit about you, and I enjoy reading your posts!
Thank you Pianoman....I'd like to think that that "good spirit" is none other than the Holy Ghost :bliss
tstew
07-03-2008, 03:17 PM
Very good point. The irony was probably overwhelming, and hard to swallow. Kind of like Christians who talk a good game, but don't live up to their own ideals. Also, to add to the confusion, the Bible doesn't really take a stand against slavery, although it does condemn racism and slavery on principle. Which is why you will find recordings of "good" slave owners and masters in history and in the Bible.
This is probably the case, but I think it can arise from a mistaken concept that the black people fought for freedom against America as a whole, when in fact that is not the case. And the ideals our country stands for are applicable to everyone, therefore they should be embraced by all, and when those ideals aren't met, they can be used as a tool to achieve liberty, through tacit reminders to those who are in the position to bring about lasting and meaningful change.
The symbols of our country are symbols of freedom, not symbols of the "white man." It irritates me to see them minimized as such.
As for Ms. Rene--her intentions may have been good, but even if they were, she defeated her purpose, because some things you shouldn't mess with. To me, it would be the same as spray painting "black pride" across the American flag. Objecting to the graffiti is not the same as objecting to "black pride."
Okay, maybe that's apples and oranges. LOL!!! The Black National Anthem is actually a beautiful song, and can't be equated with graffiti.
Hum. The problem is...sometimes as a (sort of :D ) white woman I feel bullied into not expressing offense against what I perceive as racism and an old fashioned Superiority Complex because any objection seems to be perceived as innate racism on my part. Does that make sense?
And to address what Daniel asked earlier--I don't object because it's a black hymn, or whatever it was he implied. I object because she sang a song other than the one she was asked to sing (lack of etiquette), and used her platform for a political statement rather than graciousness, and respecting the honor paid to her with the invitation to sing the National Anthem for such an event in the first place.
It is an honor to be asked, IMO.
I do really enjoy the discussions on here and believe that they are very beneficial (sometimes :) ). I understand what everybody is saying, but I really don't think that this was an issue of racism on her part or even that she was trying to make a political statement. It seems that she is an artist who was trying to make an artistic statement. Once again it was probably ill-advised, but I believe that what made it even possible is a slight, maybe subconscious difference in how people view some of our historical symbols.
For many people any "tampering" with the sacred songs and writings is unimaginable, so if they were to ever do that they would be doing that only to disrespect it and send a clear message. But to someone else those particular writings may not be held in quite the same way, so it is possible that their motives for any embellishing would not be so cut and dried.
MissBrattified
07-03-2008, 03:59 PM
I do really enjoy the discussions on here and believe that they are very beneficial (sometimes :) ). I understand what everybody is saying, but I really don't think that this was an issue of racism on her part or even that she was trying to make a political statement. It seems that she is an artist who was trying to make an artistic statement. Once again it was probably ill-advised, but I believe that what made it even possible is a slight, maybe subconscious difference in how people view some of our historical symbols.
For many people any "tampering" with the sacred songs and writings is unimaginable, so if they were to ever do that they would be doing that only to disrespect it and send a clear message. But to someone else those particular writings may not be held in quite the same way, so it is possible that their motives for any embellishing would not be so cut and dried.
I see what you're saying, and you're probably right. The fact that she didn't advertise her intentions to anyone who mattered, though, makes me think she knew it wouldn't be met with glowing approval. :coffee2
Actually, it probably wasn't meant nearly as disrespectfully (if it all) as it seems to me, but then...I am one of those people who considers it "unimaginable." :toofunny Artistic license would be changing a note or two, or adding a riff on the guitar, and that's about the extent of it. (IMO)
StillStanding
07-03-2008, 04:01 PM
I do really enjoy the discussions on here and believe that they are very beneficial (sometimes :) ). I understand what everybody is saying, but I really don't think that this was an issue of racism on her part or even that she was trying to make a political statement. It seems that she is an artist who was trying to make an artistic statement. Once again it was probably ill-advised, but I believe that what made it even possible is a slight, maybe subconscious difference in how people view some of our historical symbols.
For many people any "tampering" with the sacred songs and writings is unimaginable, so if they were to ever do that they would be doing that only to disrespect it and send a clear message. But to someone else those particular writings may not be held in quite the same way, so it is possible that their motives for any embellishing would not be so cut and dried.
I will admit that I'm somewhat of a purist. I caught some flak when I criticized Micki Mangun of butchering the ending to "Star Spangled Banner" by trying to put a soulful ending to it!
I don't mind singing the national anthem in a modern genre, but don't mess with the melody or words! :boxing
I remember St.Mark's choir singing the national anthem and it looked like the church was about to explode in revival! I thought it was funny that they were raising their hands as if they were singing an anointed church song. Maybe the "Star Spangled Banner" is kind of sacred after all! :D
tstew
07-03-2008, 04:12 PM
I will admit that I'm somewhat of a purist. I caught some flak when I criticized Micki Mangun of butchering the ending to "Star Spangled Banner" by trying to put a soulful ending to it!
I don't mind singing the national anthem in a modern genre, but don't mess with the melody or words! :boxing
I remember St.Mark's choir singing the national anthem and it looked like the church was about to explode in revival! I thought it was funny that they were raising their hands as if they were singing an anointed church song. Maybe the "Star Spangled Banner" is kind of sacred after all! :D
No it's just StMark and the B-3... They can get you to shout to anything :)
tstew
07-03-2008, 04:15 PM
I see what you're saying, and you're probably right. The fact that she didn't advertise her intentions to anyone who mattered, though, makes me think she knew it wouldn't be met with glowing approval. :coffee2
Actually, it probably wasn't meant nearly as disrespectfully (if it all) as it seems to me, but then...I am one of those people who considers it "unimaginable." :toofunny Artistic license would be changing a note or two, or adding a riff on the guitar, and that's about the extent of it. (IMO)
That's probably true. I guess I kind of understand the whole artistic mindset as well. Kind of like one of the people were saying on the video. You get some people who just want to be different and creative, and don't quite know where the boundaries are. You ought to hear what we did to the Birthday song at our church :)
Cindy
07-03-2008, 04:22 PM
What year exactly were the words to the National Anthem written?
tstew
07-03-2008, 04:30 PM
I think around 1814
Pressing-On
07-03-2008, 04:39 PM
What year exactly were the words to the National Anthem written?
I read in, perhaps they think, 1771.
Cindy
07-03-2008, 04:43 PM
I read in, perhaps they think, 1771.
Our independence from Britian? I do remember Francis Scott Key wrote it while a battle was going on.
Cindy
07-03-2008, 04:46 PM
I think around 1814
You are right, it was 1814. And it was during a battle with the British.
tstew
07-03-2008, 04:46 PM
Our independence from Britian? I do remember Francis Scott Key wrote it while a battle was going on.
I think it was during the War of 1812
Pressing-On
07-03-2008, 04:47 PM
Our independence from Britian? I do remember Francis Scott Key wrote it while a battle was going on.
:toofunny:toofunny
I typed the wrong date! Okay, time to log out now! My day has been way too long! :toofunny
tstew
07-03-2008, 04:51 PM
:toofunny:toofunny
I typed the wrong date! Okay, time to log out now! My day has been way too long! :toofunny
Thank God for extended weekends.
Cindy
07-03-2008, 04:52 PM
I think it was during the War of 1812
Yes, and we were fighting Great Britian.
Pressing-On
07-03-2008, 04:52 PM
Thank God for extended weekends.
Right! :toofunny:toofunny
Jermyn Davidson
07-03-2008, 08:27 PM
My response to her "rendition" of our National Anthem:
EXTREME RAGE!
MY OTHER THOUGHTS ABOUT HER AND HER STUPID EXPRESSION OF CREATIVITY WOULD GET ME BANNED FOR SURE!!!
IT NEVER FAILS, I AM NOT SURE IF THERE HAS EVER BEEN A GROUP OF PEOPLE AS SELF DESTRUCTIVE AS US, "AFRICAN-AMERICANS".
By the way, I'm American and I'm Black-- nothing African about me or my family for at least 5 generations.
rgcraig
07-03-2008, 08:45 PM
My response to her "rendition" of our National Anthem:
EXTREME RAGE!
MY OTHER THOUGHTS ABOUT HER AND HER STUPID EXPRESSION OF CREATIVITY WOULD GET ME BANNED FOR SURE!!!
IT NEVER FAILS, I AM NOT SURE IF THERE HAS EVER BEEN A GROUP OF PEOPLE AS SELF DESTRUCTIVE AS US, "AFRICAN-AMERICANS".
By the way, I'm American and I'm Black-- nothing African about me or my family for at least 5 generations.
Wow.....I so appreciate your post.
I just don't understand wanting the connection at all.
I'm Heinz 57 white European, but I sure don't want to be called European-American. I'm American and anyone else born and raised here is too!
Glad to hear this post!!!!
Pressing-On
07-03-2008, 08:47 PM
Wow.....I so appreciate your post.
I just don't understand wanting the connection at all.
I'm Heinz 57 white European, but I sure don't want to be called European-American. I'm American and anyone else born and raised here is too!
Glad to hear this post!!!!
Artists are just so pushy. Kind of like the gays. :toofunny
vBulletin® v3.8.5, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.