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View Full Version : Is Water Baptism Necessary For Salvation?


AbundantGrace
07-07-2008, 02:13 PM
Simply put, if a person receives Christ, repents and is filled with the Holy Spirit on a Sunday evening and decides to wait until Wednesday evening to be baptized for whatever reason, yet dies on Monday evening, without be water baptized, is he/she saved or lost and why?

Ferd
07-07-2008, 02:14 PM
oy veh

Ron
07-07-2008, 02:16 PM
This sounds familiar?:hmmm

SDG
07-07-2008, 02:17 PM
We haven't discussed this in a few days ... must count for something.

Ferd
07-07-2008, 02:27 PM
So here is the defninitive answer.

some of us believe that you are not saved without baptism in the name of Jesus. period.

some of us believe that Baptism is a profession of faith in Christ, and is a public statment of the salvation recieved at repentance.

others believe that a person who comes to christ, recieves the HG but dies before being baptized would be saved but if they refused baptism they would not be saved.


in all the above cases some of us believe that Jesus name baptism is the ONLY effectual form of baptism, some of us believe Jesus name baptism is "more biblical" but do not believe that it is exclusive.

Others believe that baptism in either Jesus name or the titles are on equal footing.


Did I leave anything out?

Mrs. LPW
07-07-2008, 02:28 PM
AG returns.

Ron
07-07-2008, 02:40 PM
So here is the defninitive answer.

some of us believe that you are not saved without baptism in the name of Jesus. period.

some of us believe that Baptism is a profession of faith in Christ, and is a public statment of the salvation recieved at repentance.

others believe that a person who comes to christ, recieves the HG but dies before being baptized would be saved but if they refused baptism they would not be saved.


in all the above cases some of us believe that Jesus name baptism is the ONLY effectual form of baptism, some of us believe Jesus name baptism is "more biblical" but do not believe that it is exclusive.

Others believe that baptism in either Jesus name or the titles are on equal footing.


Did I leave anything out?

A good cliff notes version.
How about the links to the discussion in question.

Post the one stepper vs three steeper thread, there is about three weeks of reading there!:whistle

erinsman21
07-07-2008, 02:45 PM
lol you guys are great. of course it is essential! Didnt Jesus Himself say that unless a man be born of the WATER and of the SPIRIT he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven? and didnt Peter confirm that by saying repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus for the remission on your sins and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost? we have no assurance of tomorrow. if baptism is truly necessary (and it is) then in needs to be done today! dont wait!

chosenbyone
07-07-2008, 02:56 PM
AG returns.

Perhaps, he is looking for a friend?

mizpeh
07-07-2008, 03:12 PM
Simply put, if a person receives Christ, repents and is filled with the Holy Spirit on a Sunday evening and decides to wait until Wednesday evening to be baptized for whatever reason, yet dies on Monday evening, without be water baptized, is he/she saved or lost and why?

must be born again, must be born again, must be born again, .....of the WATER and the SPIRIT (no, amniotic fluid is not part of the new birth!)


must have sins remitted, must have sins remitted, must have sins remitted... arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins calling upon the name of the Lord.



must be circumcised, must be circumcised, must be circumcised......Spiritually!



But you already know this, AG. :snapout


But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:31

Ferd
07-07-2008, 03:14 PM
lol you guys are great. of course it is essential! Didnt Jesus Himself say that unless a man be born of the WATER and of the SPIRIT he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven? and didnt Peter confirm that by saying repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus for the remission on your sins and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost? we have no assurance of tomorrow. if baptism is truly necessary (and it is) then in needs to be done today! dont wait!


YES!

errr

uhm...


uh..


unless you belive that Jesus was talking about natural birth and spiritual birth instead of being born of water (baptism) and spirit (infilling of the HG)

and so long as you think that the word "for" in Acts 2:38 means because of instead of "for".....

well uhm.. yea.

MikeinAR
07-07-2008, 03:47 PM
YES!

errr

uhm...


uh..


unless you belive that Jesus was talking about natural birth and spiritual birth instead of being born of water (baptism) and spirit (infilling of the HG)

and so long as you think that the word "for" in Acts 2:38 means because of instead of "for".....

well uhm.. yea.

Uh oh, the unless's have begun. I'm still tired from that thread last week to jump back in. You all get to know your neighbors and have fun though.

stmatthew
07-07-2008, 03:47 PM
Simply put, if a person receives Christ, repents and is filled with the Holy Spirit on a Sunday evening and decides to wait until Wednesday evening to be baptized for whatever reason, yet dies on Monday evening, without be water baptized, is he/she saved or lost and why?

What time in the evening did he die? What was the time and date? What was he wearing at the time?

Ferd
07-07-2008, 03:53 PM
Uh oh, the unless's have begun. I'm still tired from that thread last week to jump back in. You all get to know your neighbors and have fun though.

im just heading them off at the pass....



count me with those that believe Peter meant what he said.

U376977
07-07-2008, 03:55 PM
Simply put, if a person receives Christ, repents and is filled with the Holy Spirit on a Sunday evening and decides to wait until Wednesday evening to be baptized for whatever reason, yet dies on Monday evening, without be water baptized, is he/she saved or lost and why?

Three easy steps necessary for salvation.


1. No nose, ear, hair.- eyebrows no longer that 1/4 centimeter. --Must be verified by at least a pastor or Sunday School Superintendent using the international metric measurements system.
2. No yellow teeth allowed. Coffee and Tea drinkers, it is suggested you have immediate teeth whitening. Your shade of white is measured by standard dental charts and must be at least two shades whiter than the standard median tone.
3. Every event you plan to attend and every habit you have (including consumption of your favorite snacks--especially those high in sugar--) must be pre approved by the deacon board. Applications must be submitted at least two weeks prior to the event and must be signed by all parties and notarized by a legal authority. Any deviations to this policy will immediately suspend your rights as a Christian and doom your soul to hell. If you decide to repent--crawling in the front door of church while wearing burlap and ashes will not be accepted (unless accompanied by $1000 donation). Those seeking restoration must submit the standard repentance form approved by the deacon board, applications are considered on the first Sunday of each five Sunday month.

Any questions regarding our salvation policy please direct to the pastor the week following his annual vacation. (His vacation application is still pending with the board. There will be a meeting soon to address the possibility of a meeting to approve this action).

All other salvation requests should be directed to the General Secretary who will forward to the quarterly board meeting of the general council. Their decision is final and cannot be questioned.

RandyWayne
07-07-2008, 03:56 PM
So here is the defninitive answer.

some of us believe that you are not saved without baptism in the name of Jesus. period.

some of us believe that Baptism is a profession of faith in Christ, and is a public statment of the salvation recieved at repentance.

others believe that a person who comes to christ, recieves the HG but dies before being baptized would be saved but if they refused baptism they would not be saved.


in all the above cases some of us believe that Jesus name baptism is the ONLY effectual form of baptism, some of us believe Jesus name baptism is "more biblical" but do not believe that it is exclusive.

Others believe that baptism in either Jesus name or the titles are on equal footing.


Did I leave anything out?

Yes. Some believe that you must be baptized "in the name of the Lord Jesus", others "in the name of Jesus" and still others "in the name of Jesus Christ". Or pick your combination. Some will be adamant that to be baptized in ANY other way is a one-way ticket to hell.

U376977
07-07-2008, 04:15 PM
Yes. Some believe that you must be baptized "in the name of the Lord Jesus", others "in the name of Jesus" and still others "in the name of Jesus Christ". Or pick your combination. Some will be adamant that to be baptized in ANY other way is a one-way ticket to hell.

I baptize you in the name the Father Son and Holy Ghost, the name of Jesus, our Lord Jesus Christ, in the name of Jesus Christ.

Tim Rutledge
07-07-2008, 04:37 PM
Simply put, if a person receives Christ, repents and is filled with the Holy Spirit on a Sunday evening and decides to wait until Wednesday evening to be baptized for whatever reason, yet dies on Monday evening, without be water baptized, is he/she saved or lost and why?

They have not been born again of the water. And the bible says ye must be. Thats my understanding, and according to my teachings. I do believe though.. they will fall into the hands of a merciful God, and its not my job to put anybody in hell. Especially when they are making strides towards God.

Rhoni
07-07-2008, 05:27 PM
Simply put, if a person receives Christ, repents and is filled with the Holy Spirit on a Sunday evening and decides to wait until Wednesday evening to be baptized for whatever reason, yet dies on Monday evening, without be water baptized, is he/she saved or lost and why?

I am so glad I am not God and have to judge that issue. :dance

Jermyn Davidson
07-07-2008, 06:10 PM
In the specific situation you have presented, I BELIEVE that person would indeed be saved as we are all only saved by the grace and mercy of God in the first place.

Let me also state that, through scripture, the believer's faith that brings salvation will be validated by what they do. If one really believes, then why wouldn't he/she OBEY the Gospel?

Rico
07-07-2008, 06:19 PM
Simply put, if a person receives Christ, repents and is filled with the Holy Spirit on a Sunday evening and decides to wait until Wednesday evening to be baptized for whatever reason, yet dies on Monday evening, without be water baptized, is he/she saved or lost and why?

AG, this is one of them tricky questions. I've always felt that there's room for the possibility of someone being saved without having been baptized in Jesus name and receiving the HG, but in my opinion those instances would be very limited in scope.

TRFrance
07-07-2008, 06:21 PM
Same song... different beat.

Rico
07-07-2008, 06:22 PM
Same song... different beat.


Maybe this is the Southern Rock version. I happen to like Southern Rock! :rockband

RevDWW
07-07-2008, 06:31 PM
How often has this really, verifiable, happened? Could the Lord be powerful enough to keep someone from dying that wanted to be baptized and had made plans to be baptized?

If one knows they should be baptized, why wait? I can't recall one instance in the Book of Acts where they put off baptizing anyone for a few days. Am I wrong about that?



The real question everyone has to ask themselves is "what hinders me from rising up and being baptized calling on the name of the Lord"?

Rico
07-07-2008, 06:33 PM
How often has this really, verifiable, happened? Could the Lord be powerful enough to keep someone from dieing that wanted to be baptized and had made plans to be baptized?

If one knows they should be baptized, why wait? I can't recall one instance in the Book of Acts where they put of baptizing anyone for a few days. Am I wrong about that?

I've seen instances when baptism was delayed for this reason or that, through no fault of the person wanting to get baptized.

NLYP
07-07-2008, 06:34 PM
YOU ARE NOT SAVED WITHOUT BAPTISM IN JESUS NAME!

PERIOD!

As to the question in the opening post?
I am NOT God...

RevDWW
07-07-2008, 06:38 PM
I've seen instances when baptism was delayed for this reason or that, through no fault of the person wanting to get baptized.

I didn't say it doesn't happen. I just think if one is desperate enough they'd insist on it right away. If a minister thinks it is vital, why would he tell someone "Let's do this later"?


All the hypothetical questions in the world does not absolve an individual from obeying the word.

Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Rico
07-07-2008, 06:47 PM
I didn't say it doesn't happen. I just think if one is desperate enough they'd insist on it right away. If a minister thinks it is vital, why would he tell someone "Let's do this later"?


All the hypothetical questions in the world does not absolve an individual from obeying the word.

Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

You are assuming there is always a readily available means to get someone baptized. I know what you are saying, but sometimes circumstances just get in the way. Say, for example, it's the middle of January. Heading on down to the River is out of the question because it's 20 below zero. It's 11:30 on Sunday night and y'all had a blowout service. A sinner makes his way to the altar during the altar call. He wants to get baptized, but there's no water in the baptistry because the line sprung a leak and they haven't been fixed yet. The pastor says to wait until he can either get the baptisty fixed or find somewhere to perform the baptism. Brother New Convert leaves and dies from an unexpected heart attack or in a car wreck that night. Does he get into Heaven? My feeling is he would, but that's one of them tricky judgement calls only God should make.

OneAccord
07-07-2008, 06:49 PM
For some odd reason, the old Sonny and Cher song "And the beat goes on" went through my head as I scanned.... briefly scanned... through this thread.

:beatdeadhorse:beatdeadhorse:beatdeadhorse

The beat goes on, the beat goes on
Drums keep pounding a rhythm to the brain
La de da de dee, la de da de da

Sherri
07-07-2008, 07:56 PM
Sometimes our pastors in Africa only get to baptize a few times a year and they will baptize many at one time. They do not live close to a body of water and they have to save money to rent a pool at a hotel. They can't just do that every week, so they wait until they have several to baptize. I don't believe that God would judge these people waiting to be baptized!

I think you are in danger when you reject baptism or the Holy Ghost, but not before then, if you are truly seeking God. JMHO!

mfblume
07-07-2008, 07:58 PM
So here is the defninitive answer.

some of us believe that you are not saved without baptism in the name of Jesus. period.

some of us believe that Baptism is a profession of faith in Christ, and is a public statment of the salvation recieved at repentance.

others believe that a person who comes to christ, recieves the HG but dies before being baptized would be saved but if they refused baptism they would not be saved.


in all the above cases some of us believe that Jesus name baptism is the ONLY effectual form of baptism, some of us believe Jesus name baptism is "more biblical" but do not believe that it is exclusive.

Others believe that baptism in either Jesus name or the titles are on equal footing.


Did I leave anything out?


Yes you did. You left out someone who believes that a person who INTENDS TO BE BAPTIZED, but dies before having a chance to do so, is considered baptized since God counts those things that are not as though they were in such cases. :D

Something else to ponder... what if God also knows if someone WOULD be obedient to baptism IF they were preached it by someone with WISDOM, and not hammered, but never were?

stmatthew
07-07-2008, 09:05 PM
Yes you did. You left out someone who believes that a person who INTENDS TO BE BAPTIZED, but dies before having a chance to do so, is considered baptized since God counts those things that are not as though they were in such cases. :D

Something else to ponder... what if God also knows if someone WOULD be obedient to baptism IF they were preached it by someone with WISDOM, and not hammered, but never were?

We could also draw this a little farther out and say that what if God also knows if someone WOULD be obedient to REPENTANCE IF they were preached it by someone with WISDOM, and not hammered, but never were?

stmatthew
07-07-2008, 09:11 PM
You are assuming there is always a readily available means to get someone baptized. I know what you are saying, but sometimes circumstances just get in the way. Say, for example, it's the middle of January. Heading on down to the River is out of the question because it's 20 below zero. It's 11:30 on Sunday night and y'all had a blowout service. A sinner makes his way to the altar during the altar call. He wants to get baptized, but there's no water in the baptistry because the line sprung a leak and they haven't been fixed yet. The pastor says to wait until he can either get the baptisty fixed or find somewhere to perform the baptism. Brother New Convert leaves and dies from an unexpected heart attack or in a car wreck that night. Does he get into Heaven? My feeling is he would, but that's one of them tricky judgement calls only God should make.

I disagree with you on this. They used to break through the ice in the creek in the North Carolina Mountains to have a baptismal. I personally have crawled into a running creek that had to be below zero to baptize someone that had seen the light on Jesus Name Baptism. If it is taught as salvational, there will be a push to baptize someone as soon as possible. If someone is putting it off because of inconvenience, then they probably really don't believe it is necessary for salvation, or they do not really have a heart for souls.

I have also baptized someone in a tub in their bathroom. It wasn't easy, but she went all the way under in Jesus name!

Where there is a will, there is a way.

Ron
07-07-2008, 09:12 PM
I disagree with you on this. They used to break through the ice in the creek in the North Carolina Mountains to have a baptismal. I personally have crawled into a running creek that had to be below zero to baptize someone that had seen the light on Jesus Name Baptism. If it is taught as salvational, there will be a push to baptize someone as soon as possible. If someone is putting it off because of inconvenience, then they probably really don't believe it is necessary for salvation, or they do not really have a heart for souls.

I have also baptized someone in a tub in their bathroom. It wasn't easy, but she went all the way under in Jesus name!

Where there is a will, there is a way.


Amen!

Rico
07-07-2008, 09:17 PM
I disagree with you on this. They used to break through the ice in the creek in the North Carolina Mountains to have a baptismal. I personally have crawled into a running creek that had to be below zero to baptize someone that had seen the light on Jesus Name Baptism. If it is taught as salvational, there will be a push to baptize someone as soon as possible. If someone is putting it off because of inconvenience, then they probably really don't believe it is necessary for salvation, or they do not really have a heart for souls.

I have also baptized someone in a tub in their bathroom. It wasn't easy, but she went all the way under in Jesus name!

Where there is a will, there is a way.

That's great, St. Matt, but good luck getting anyone to be willing to go into the Ohio River or the Wabash River in warm weather, let alone when it's the middle of winter. Based on the logic in your post, it would be the pastor who didn't think it was necessary, because that is who told the person in my story to wait.

Also, I happen to know of situations where someone can't get baptized until proper channels are dealt with, like people in prison. You can't just walk in and announce you are going to baptize someone. They, along with the volunteer who is going to baptize them, have to get permission from the prison officials.

mfblume
07-07-2008, 09:21 PM
We could also draw this a little farther out and say that what if God also knows if someone WOULD be obedient to REPENTANCE IF they were preached it by someone with WISDOM, and not hammered, but never were?

Just surmising, but there is a difference between proving desire to follow God and not.

stmatthew
07-07-2008, 09:42 PM
That's great, St. Matt, but good luck getting anyone to be willing to go into the Ohio River or the Wabash River in warm weather, let alone when it's the middle of winter. Based on the logic in your post, it would be the pastor who didn't think it was necessary, because that is who told the person in my story to wait.

Also, I happen to know of situations where someone can't get baptized until proper channels are dealt with, like people in prison. You can't just walk in and announce you are going to baptize someone. They, along with the volunteer who is going to baptize them, have to get permission from the prison officials.

Rico, I have a good friend that was over the prison ministry in an area of MO. He pre-set up the ability to baptize ANY prisoner that wanted to be baptized. They did not have to wait. IF it is important enough, someone will giter done.


I will also say this. If God is big enough to forgive their sins, I believe he is big enough to keep them until they CAN get baptized.

I would really like to know if anyone here has ever known someone that wanted to get baptized, and was not able to, and died before the opportunity came?

stmatthew
07-07-2008, 09:47 PM
That's great, St. Matt, but good luck getting anyone to be willing to go into the Ohio River or the Wabash River in warm weather, let alone when it's the middle of winter. Based on the logic in your post, it would be the pastor who didn't think it was necessary, because that is who told the person in my story to wait.




I missed commenting on this first part of your post.


IF someone rejects baptism, wether warm weather or cold, are they really interested in being obedient to the Gospel?

And if a Pastor would put off baptizing someone, then shame on him! He obviously does not think much of the persons soul. Would you continue to go to a doctor for a life saving treatment if he decided that it was too cold to come in and see you?

Rico
07-07-2008, 10:37 PM
Rico, I have a good friend that was over the prison ministry in an area of MO. He pre-set up the ability to baptize ANY prisoner that wanted to be baptized. They did not have to wait. IF it is important enough, someone will giter done.


I will also say this. If God is big enough to forgive their sins, I believe he is big enough to keep them until they CAN get baptized.

I would really like to know if anyone here has ever known someone that wanted to get baptized, and was not able to, and died before the opportunity came?

Well, maybe you can send him over to Indiana. Them people were tough to deal with! Actually, it was more the chaplain who was tough to deal with. He wasn't very pro-tongue talkin. Even though the prisoner's are supposed to have the right to excercise their religion, the prison chaplain still can find ways to make things difficult for groups he doesn't agree with. Last I heard, he got transferred out, so maybe they were finally able to get things worked out. Federal prisons are a totally different ballgame. It's much easier to get things done with them.

Rico
07-07-2008, 10:39 PM
I missed commenting on this first part of your post.


IF someone rejects baptism, wether warm weather or cold, are they really interested in being obedient to the Gospel?

And if a Pastor would put off baptizing someone, then shame on him! He obviously does not think much of the persons soul. Would you continue to go to a doctor for a life saving treatment if he decided that it was too cold to come in and see you?

I don't believe that for a second, St Matt. Sometimes there are legitimate reasons for people not being able to be baptized immediately. What if it was an 80 year old woman? Can you honestly tell me you think she should risk getting into a river with fast moving currents, in the middle of winter, rather than wait a few days for the pastor to find a more suitable way for her to be baptized?

Steve Epley
07-07-2008, 10:40 PM
NO NOTHING is necessary for salvation Calvary, the Blood, grace, mercy, obedience. Everyone is predestined for Heaven or Hell or God is going to save everyone.:aaa

Sherri
07-08-2008, 06:55 AM
NO NOTHING is necessary for salvation Calvary, the Blood, grace, mercy, obedience. Everyone is predestined for Heaven or Hell or God is going to save everyone.:aaaI KNEW you were going Charismatic!:crazy

stmatthew
07-08-2008, 07:32 AM
I don't believe that for a second, St Matt. Sometimes there are legitimate reasons for people not being able to be baptized immediately. What if it was an 80 year old woman? Can you honestly tell me you think she should risk getting into a river with fast moving currents, in the middle of winter, rather than wait a few days for the pastor to find a more suitable way for her to be baptized?

Ever hear of bath tubs?? Kids Plastic swimming pools??

IF I was taught that baptism was necessary for salvation, I would not leave until I was baptized. And the lady we baptized in the bath tub was just that way. She would not leave until she was baptized in Jesus name, cause she saw it.


Just as with Phillip and the Eunuch, I believe God will always provide water in some shape or form.

Rico
07-08-2008, 08:00 AM
Ever hear of bath tubs?? Kids Plastic swimming pools??

IF I was taught that baptism was necessary for salvation, I would not leave until I was baptized. And the lady we baptized in the bath tub was just that way. She would not leave until she was baptized in Jesus name, cause she saw it.


Just as with Phillip and the Eunuch, I believe God will always provide water in some shape or form.

StMatt, a bath tub might be a good alternative for some people. You'd have a really hard time baptizing a fella my size in a standard bath tub though. One of them nice jacuzzi sized bath tubs would probly work though. The point is that it's real easy to say you'd do such and thus, when the reality is that you can't plan for every scenario and there are times when baptizing someone immediately is just not possible. We can use up the next 10 pages coming up with this scenario and that scenario all we want, and we still wouldn't cover every one. It's good to see that, at least in your world, everything is so neatly packaged, put together, and ready.

Maple Leaf
07-08-2008, 08:32 AM
Simply put, if a person receives Christ, repents and is filled with the Holy Spirit on a Sunday evening and decides to wait until Wednesday evening to be baptized for whatever reason, yet dies on Monday evening, without be water baptized, is he/she saved or lost and why?

A repentant believer is saved before water baptism, but every true believer will be baptized.

The faith that results in water baptism justifies the repentant sinner before water baptism. If God has declared the new believer holy, who will condemn him before the throne of God?

The promised Holy Spirit is either the earnest of our inheritance or it's not. If God gave the earnest, God will give the inheritance.

Therefore, in your scenario, the new believer would join the dying thief in Paradise with Jesus before the sun had set on Monday evening.

I hold these truths to be self-evident in Scripture.

BrotherEastman
07-08-2008, 08:33 AM
Simply put, if a person receives Christ, repents and is filled with the Holy Spirit on a Sunday evening and decides to wait until Wednesday evening to be baptized for whatever reason, yet dies on Monday evening, without be water baptized, is he/she saved or lost and why?
I wish I had a dollar for everytime I saw this question.

COOPER
07-08-2008, 08:37 AM
Just do it...............ACTS 2:38

Steve Epley
07-08-2008, 08:43 AM
I think we should stop baptizing just in case someone would think we believe that water saves. Or praying either that is a human merit. Jesus is the Saviour not praying that is works.

BrotherEastman
07-08-2008, 08:45 AM
I think we should stop baptizing just in case someone would think we believe that water saves. Or praying either that is a human merit. Jesus is the Saviour not praying that is works.
Stop it!

Light
07-08-2008, 08:47 AM
I will also say this. If God is big enough to forgive their sins, I believe he is big enough to keep them until they CAN get baptized.



The first (a small upc church that had been there for years and years) that I pastored there was a very elderly man that was not in good health. He had been a member of the church from it's very beginning. One day the Lord impressed me to teach on the plan of salvation. It seemed very strange as I though every one of the 10 people had obeyed. I preached the message one Sunday morning and after service the man came to me and ask "Do you mean I have to do that to be saved" I replied yes.
He then asked when could I baptise him. The next week we baptised him and he received the Holy Ghost. It wasn't to much longer that he passed away.

These hypotheticals are just the devils way to convince some that the bible really doesn't mean what it says.

AbundantGrace
07-08-2008, 08:50 AM
A repentant believer is saved before water baptism, but every true believer will be baptized.

The faith that results in water baptism justifies the repentant sinner before water baptism. If God has declared the new believer holy, who will condemn him before the throne of God?

The promised Holy Spirit is either the earnest of our inheritance or it's not. If God gave the earnest, God will give the inheritance.

Therefore, in your scenario, the new believer would join the dying thief in Paradise with Jesus before the sun had set on Monday evening.

I hold these truths to be self-evident in Scripture.

AMEN! Beautifully put and I believe absolutely correct. We are justified by faith and saved by God's grace. Thanks... I'm just watching all the feedback that's rolling in...

Rico
07-08-2008, 09:00 AM
The first (a small upc church that had been there for years and years) that I pastored there was a very elderly man that was not in good health. He had been a member of the church from it's very beginning. One day the Lord impressed me to teach on the plan of salvation. It seemed very strange as I though every one of the 10 people had obeyed. I preached the message one Sunday morning and after service the man came to me and ask "Do you mean I have to do that to be saved" I replied yes.
He then asked when could I baptise him. The next week we baptised him and he received the Holy Ghost. It wasn't to much longer that he passed away.

These hypotheticals are just the devils way to convince some that the bible really doesn't mean what it says.

According to the logic of some around here, you should have baptized him immediately without delay, no waiting for next week, or that would mean you really didn't believe what you had preached. Please, share the details about what caused such a long delay from the time he believed he needed to be baptized until the time when you actually baptized him.

Steve Epley
07-08-2008, 09:01 AM
A repentant believer is saved before water baptism, but every true believer will be baptized.

The faith that results in water baptism justifies the repentant sinner before water baptism. If God has declared the new believer holy, who will condemn him before the throne of God?

The promised Holy Spirit is either the earnest of our inheritance or it's not. If God gave the earnest, God will give the inheritance.

Therefore, in your scenario, the new believer would join the dying thief in Paradise with Jesus before the sun had set on Monday evening.

I hold these truths to be self-evident in Scripture.

Believing is works Jesus said it was. And man is repenting also works you are a legalist. Salvation by works. Faith-repentance-baptism all works Jesus saves not works. We believe because He gives faith, we repent because He grants it, so since He is doing it is is necessary AND if it is necessary then you are preaching a works doctrine.

AbundantGrace
07-08-2008, 09:12 AM
According to the logic of some around here, you should have baptized him immediately without delay, no waiting for next week, or that would mean you really didn't believe what you had preached. Please, share the details about what caused such a long delay from the time he believed he needed to be baptized until the time when you actually baptized him.

OK!!! Let me add a little more information to the scenario, so this back and forth can come to a halt HOPEFULLY. The man was brought to church on Sunday night by ambulance in Arctic Yukon Territory in January. He's very ill and really can't easily be moved from his stretcher bed without excruciating pain, but the doctors say that the treatment works quickly and he should be doing much better within a few days, so that's why he's asking to be baptized, hopefully Wednesday night, if not then, perhaps by the weekend. The guys in a bind, but he really wants to be saved. So was he saved on Sunday or is his salvation in limbo until Wednesday or possibly even the weekend? Sure would be nice if the Cross was enough... :whistle

Steve Epley
07-08-2008, 09:14 AM
OK!!! Let me add a little more information to the scenario, so this back and forth can come to a halt HOPEFULLY. The man was brought to church on Sunday night by ambulance in Arctic Yukon Territory in January. He's very ill and really can't easily be moved from his stretcher bed without excruciating pain, but the doctors say that the treatment works quickly and he should be doing much better within a few days, so that's why he's asking to be baptized, hopefully Wednesday night, if not then, perhaps by the weekend. The guys in a bind, but he really wants to be saved. So was he saved on Sunday or is his salvation in limbo until Wednesday or possibly even the weekend? Sure would be nice if the Cross was enough... :whistle

Since the Cross saved him he had no need to have faith nor repent it is works. Jesus saves not faith and repentance. Y'all are legalists.

Ferd
07-08-2008, 09:40 AM
I think equivocators will be lost.

Light
07-08-2008, 09:55 AM
According to the logic of some around here, you should have baptized him immediately without delay, no waiting for next week, or that would mean you really didn't believe what you had preached. Please, share the details about what caused such a long delay from the time he believed he needed to be baptized until the time when you actually baptized him.

I preached the message about 1 month after taking the church. The church had been there for years with this man in attendance from it's conception. It is sad that he never heard the plan of salvation preached in all those years.
The previous pastor told him he was saved at repentance.
I wasn't worried about time,if he was called as acts 2:39 says, he would not die if he intended to obeyed what was revealed to him, which this man did.

JN Anderson
07-08-2008, 10:12 AM
When you repent, thereby turning your life to God, and call on the name of the Lord you shall be filled with the Holy Spirit. Conversions found in the New Testament, and especially, in Luke's second history volume (Acts), we find people are baptized on the spot. With great haste at times. I would say any notion to leave this concept is aberrant from the Scriptures. Why would you want to wait to be identified with your Savior in this way? Unless you die first, I believe it should be like an unconscious response.

BrotherEastman
07-08-2008, 11:16 AM
Since the Cross saved him he had no need to have faith nor repent it is works. Jesus saves not faith and repentance. Y'all are legalists.
Stop it!

retsambeW
07-08-2008, 11:19 AM
Since the Cross saved him he had no need to have faith nor repent it is works. Jesus saves not faith and repentance. Y'all are legalists.


Somebody pass me the Tylenol! SE has gone PCI! :D LOL

Scott Hutchinson
07-08-2008, 12:11 PM
MARK 16:16,17 is scripture and we can't chunk em,however a if a person has true faith I believe they will express it by being buried with Christ in baptism.

BrotherEastman
07-08-2008, 12:29 PM
Simply put, if a person receives Christ, repents and is filled with the Holy Spirit on a Sunday evening and decides to wait until Wednesday evening to be baptized for whatever reason, yet dies on Monday evening, without be water baptized, is he/she saved or lost and why?
I guess the real question should be: Is obedience to God's word necessary?

Steve Epley
07-08-2008, 12:45 PM
I guess the real question should be: Is obedience to God's word necessary?

Absolutely NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anything done or not done is works. Salvation is of the Lord we do nothing. Jesus did it all we add nothing or cooperate in nothing.

BrotherEastman
07-08-2008, 12:48 PM
Absolutely NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anything done or not done is works. Salvation is of the Lord we do nothing. Jesus did it all we add nothing or cooperate in nothing.
LOL! Didn't I tell you to Stop it!?;)

Steve Epley
07-08-2008, 01:15 PM
LOL! Didn't I tell you to Stop it!?;)

This places me in a quandry if I stop it is works and if I continue it is works. Woe is me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Salvation is of the Lord.

DividedThigh
07-08-2008, 01:19 PM
course it is, in light of your question about dying on mon, that is up to god, he knows our hearts and will judge us accordingly, dt

Ferd
07-08-2008, 01:23 PM
Baptism is only required if you are on fire and have not repented yet....


or some such.

Aquila
07-08-2008, 01:24 PM
Ever hear of bath tubs?? Kids Plastic swimming pools??

IF I was taught that baptism was necessary for salvation, I would not leave until I was baptized. And the lady we baptized in the bath tub was just that way. She would not leave until she was baptized in Jesus name, cause she saw it.


Just as with Phillip and the Eunuch, I believe God will always provide water in some shape or form.

I too have seen people told to wait because the baptismal was unprepared or because the pastor was out of town. I've also seen minors told to remain unbaptized until the church could get parental permission from parents who were not attending church prior to baptism. I've seen baptism refused until the person has a bible study so they know what they are taking part in.

We have plenty of people who believe it's essential to be water baptize who stall baptism for one reason or another.

Aquila
07-08-2008, 01:30 PM
Here's a question I've always had...

If a person's sins are not forgiven until water baptism...how did they receive the Holy Ghost prior to water baptism? Will God fill an unforgiven temple with His Holy Ghost?

Rico
07-08-2008, 01:31 PM
I too have seen people told to wait because the baptismal was unprepared or because the pastor was out of town. I've also seen minors told to remain unbaptized until the church could get parental permission from parents who were not attending church prior to baptism. I've seen baptism refused until the person has a bible study so they know what they are taking part in.

We have plenty of people who believe it's essential to be water baptize who stall baptism for one reason or another.

Regarding parental permission: I think it's a very good idea. We live in a sue happy society. People are looking for any way they can make some money. Churches are as big a target as any other institution in the USA.

Aquila
07-08-2008, 01:39 PM
Regarding parental permission: I think it's a very good idea. We live in a sue happy society. People are looking for any way they can make some money. Churches are as big a target as any other institution in the USA.

Yep. Sad but true.

I know some house church Apostolics who baptized a couple on their back porch with a large bowl of water. lol

Did that one count? lol

Pressing-On
07-08-2008, 01:41 PM
This places me in a quandry if I stop it is works and if I continue it is works. Woe is me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Salvation is of the Lord.

Oh yea!!! Preach!

Baptism is only required if you are on fire and have not repented yet....


or some such.

:bliss :bliss :bliss

Rico
07-08-2008, 02:13 PM
Yep. Sad but true.

I know some house church Apostolics who baptized a couple on their back porch with a large bowl of water. lol

Did that one count? lol

I heard about some creative prisoners that baptized each other in a big garbage can. They used a garbage bag to line it, filled it up with water, and hurried up and baptized each other before they could get caught by the guards. :D

Cindy
07-08-2008, 02:21 PM
I heard about some creative prisoners that baptized each other in a big garbage can. They used a garbage bag to line it, filled it up with water, and hurried up and baptized each other before they could get caught by the guards. :D

Praise the Lord.

Aquila
07-08-2008, 02:42 PM
I heard about some creative prisoners that baptized each other in a big garbage can. They used a garbage bag to line it, filled it up with water, and hurried up and baptized each other before they could get caught by the guards. :D

lol

I love it! Where there’s a will there’s a way.

I think we run the risk of "ceremonializing" water baptism to the point of loosing its actual meaning. It symbolizes one's burial with Christ and it is commanded in Scripture. But there are times when circumstance prevents immediate water baptism. I firmly believe that God can keep the individual by his grace until they are water baptized. If a person appeared to repent and be filled with the Holy Ghost but died before their water baptism…at first I’d be more inclined to see this as a judgment from God as opposed trying to justify their salvation. If baptism is required, and God can keep a person until their baptism, why would God just allow one to die before being able to obey? It might be that God snuffed out the individual before they could taste the heavenly gift as a judgment. Serious stuff.

A believer is expected to obey and be water baptized. No bones about it.

I’ve often wondered, what about the sick that cannot be moved? I see only one possible accommodation for them…

James 5:14-15
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

If this promise is for any sick among us, including the unsaved, perhaps God has made an accommodation for the sick to receive the forgiveness of sins. I mean, could a minister administer grace to the sick and dying with oil, allowing the “prayer of faith” to stand before God? Don’t know. It’s just a thought.

And then there’s the debate about mode of baptism. Is concept behind “baptism” something that precludes “pouring”?

If all I had was a bowl or cup of water, I’d use it.

All of this is very interesting.

Cindy
07-08-2008, 02:54 PM
lol

I love it! Where there’s a will there’s a way.

I think we run the risk of "ceremonializing" water baptism to the point of loosing its actual meaning. It symbolizes one's burial with Christ and it is commanded in Scripture. But there are times when circumstance prevents immediate water baptism. I firmly believe that God can keep the individual by his grace until they are water baptized. If a person appeared to repent and be filled with the Holy Ghost but died before their water baptism…at first I’d be more inclined to see this as a judgment from God as opposed trying to justify their salvation. If baptism is required, and God can keep a person until their baptism, why would God just allow one to die before being able to obey? It might be that God snuffed out the individual before they could taste the heavenly gift as a judgment. Serious stuff.

A believer is expected to obey and be water baptized. No bones about it.

I’ve often wondered, what about the sick that cannot be moved? I see only one possible accommodation for them…

James 5:14-15
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

If this promise is for any sick among us, including the unsaved, perhaps God has made an accommodation for the sick to receive the forgiveness of sins. I mean, could a minister administer grace to the sick and dying with oil, allowing the “prayer of faith” to stand before God? Don’t know. It’s just a thought.

And then there’s the debate about mode of baptism. Is concept behind “baptism” something that precludes “pouring”?

If all I had was a bowl or cup of water, I’d use it.

All of this is very interesting.


Your post is interesting and food for thought.

Pastor Keith
07-08-2008, 03:11 PM
Baptism is a physical act with great spiritual significance.

With that being said, there are various aspects to salvation.

Justification
Union with Christ
Regeneration
Sanctification
Glorification

These realities happen as the believer expresses Faith (the only requirement), but the application is different in the various aspects of the salvation experience.

Any act that brings about an unwillingness to obey the whole Gospel is to show unbelief and thus will cause an indivdual to miss the plan and will of God.