Can A Person Be A Smoker & Still Be Saved

[AbundantGrace]

Put more plainly, is it possible for a person who smokes/uses tobacco products to truly be a Christian? Is it possible for that person to be saved while still smoking/chewing/dipping? Why or why not?

[deltaguitar]

Yes.

While they might be committing a sin against their health they can still be a child of God. However, I don't think it is God's will that any should remain in bondage and any addiction IMO keeps us in bondage.

[RandyWayne]

Of course not.

Just send me a list and I'll write "yes" or "no" next to every single activity.

[mizpeh]

1 Cor 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


Does destroy mean lost because tobacco products defile the temple of God.

[Michael Phelps]

1 Cor 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


Does destroy mean lost because tobacco products defile the temple of God.

Are you sure the word "defile" refers to a physical defilement, or a spiritual defilement?

[RandyWayne]

1 Cor 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


Does destroy mean lost because tobacco products defile the temple of God.

If smoking tobacco is an eternal sin because it defiles the body, then so is drinking soda, most fast and fried foods, NOT exercising, etc.....
Disgusting as it is, I have always wondered why smoking is singled out. (Probably because it IS disgusting and thus easy to be.)

[Ferd]

Are you sure the word "defile" refers to a physical defilement, or a spiritual defilement?

is it either/or or both?

[Michael Phelps]

is it either/or or both?

Well, if it refers to physical defilement, we have a lot more to worry about than tobacco. Stuff like artificial sweeteners, preservatives, red meat, excess food intake, carbonated sodas, caffeine, and the list goes on.......

[jendouc]

If smoking tobacco is an eternal sin because it defiles the body, then so is drinking soda, most fast and fried foods, NOT exercising, etc.....
Disgusting as it is, I have always wondered why smoking is singled out. (Probably because it IS disgusting and thus easy to be.)

I've kinda wondered the same thing. . . I also think it is a disgusting habit, but I also think we tend to categorize sin and I really don't think God does. Sin is sin, and all sin can be remitted through the blood of Jesus!

[mizpeh]

Are you sure the word "defile" refers to a physical defilement, or a spiritual defilement?

physical defilement................our body is the temple.


1 Cor 6:19-20 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

[Jack Shephard]

If smoking tobacco is an eternal sin because it defiles the body, then so is drinking soda, most fast and fried foods, NOT exercising, etc.....
Disgusting as it is, I have always wondered why smoking is singled out. (Probably because it IS disgusting and thus easy to be.)

RW, this is the post of the day!!!!!!!!!!!

[Michael Phelps]

physical defilement................our body is the temple.


1 Cor 6:19-20 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Well, if that's the case, most of us have greater issues than tobacco.

If physical defilement of the body is a sin that will destroy us, there are many in our ranks who don't stand a chance of making it to heaven.

[MikeinAR]

Awww...good point Randy. You've stumbled upon one of my huge pet peeves. First of all, I've never took a drag of a cigarette and don't plan on it anytime soon. The nasty habit doesn't appeal to me in the least.

However, I find it comical and absurd for a 300 pound preacher who hasn't reverenced the temple of the Holy Ghost(his body) and hasn't taken his health into consideration at lunch and dinner, to tell a congregation of people that people who inhale smoke in their lungs are in sin.

That may be the case, but the sin of glutony, of which I and a lot of others in the church are sometimes guilty, goes unpreached on?? I guess it's easy to classify sin for some of those guys.

[Rhoni]

1 Cor 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


Does destroy mean lost because tobacco products defile the temple of God.

Lots of Apostolics not saved because of gluttony in regard to over-eating:):whistle

[RandyWayne]

Incidentally I've always wondered the same thing about gambling and why IT is singled out. There are certainly many other things people do with their money which are equally 'unwise'..... :)

[Rhoni]

Awww...good point Randy. You've stumbled upon one of my huge pet peeves. First of all, I've never took a drag of a cigarette and don't plan on it anytime soon. The nasty habit doesn't appeal to me in the least.

However, I find it comical and absurd for a 300 pound preacher who hasn't reverenced the temple of the Holy Ghost(his body) and hasn't taken his health into consideration at lunch and dinner, to tell a congregation of people that these people that take smoke from cigarette's in their body and defile it are in sin.

That may be the case, but the sin of glutony, of which I and a lot of others in the church are sometimes guilty, goes unpreached on?? I guess it's easy to classify sin for some of those guys.


I didn't read this until I had posted but it is right on:friend

[mizpeh]

If smoking tobacco is an eternal sin because it defiles the body, then so is drinking soda, most fast and fried foods, NOT exercising, etc.....
Disgusting as it is, I have always wondered why smoking is singled out. (Probably because it IS disgusting and thus easy to be.)

You don't think smoking defiles your body?

[Michael Phelps]

You don't think smoking defiles your body?

Sure. So does too much soda, overeating, caffeine, processed sugar, etc.

Here's one for you - if a person is a diabetic, and their doctor has told them they need to lose weight or they'll die prematurely, and they continue to eat themselves sick, are they defiling their body?

Should they pray for healing?

[mizpeh]

Lots of Apostolics not saved because of gluttony in regard to over-eating:):whistle What does Paul mean by "defile the temple"?

[MikeinAR]

I didn't read this until I had posted but it is right on:friend

Thanks for the Amen Sista!!:hanky

[Michael Phelps]

What does Paul mean by "defile the temple"?

What is your interpretation?

[RandyWayne]

You don't think smoking defiles your body?

Here are my thoughts. I don't smoke (and never have) because it IS bad for you, an 'unwise' use of your money (just like gambling!), and disrespectful of the people around you. That LAST point may be the one thing that smoking has going for it to make it worthy of being singled out as a sin.

[stmatthew]

Put more plainly, is it possible for a person who smokes/uses tobacco products to truly be a Christian? Is it possible for that person to be saved while still smoking/chewing/dipping? Why or why not?

Is there a smoking section in heaven??

[mizpeh]

Sure. So does too much soda, overeating, caffeine, processed sugar, etc.

Here's one for you - if a person is a diabetic, and their doctor has told them they need to lose weight or they'll die prematurely, and they continue to eat themselves sick, are they defiling their body?

Should they pray for healing?What do you think, Michael? Do the scriptures mean what they say? Our body is the temple of God. If any man defile the body, him will God destroy. What does that mean to you?


I'm not trying to be harsh. I have my own vices that I fight against. So those verses reprove me as well.

[RandyWayne]

Is there a smoking section in heaven??

Nor is there a McDonald's Playland.

[mizpeh]

What is your interpretation?

Here's Strongs: to corrupt, to destroy
in the opinion of the Jews, the temple was corrupted or "destroyed" when anyone defiled or in the slightest degree damaged anything in it, or if its guardians neglected their duties
to lead away a Christian church from that state of knowledge and holiness in which it ought to abide
to be destroyed, to perish
in an ethical sense, to corrupt, deprave

[gulfcoastbrother]

I tell you what amazes me is the big, fat UPC preachers that get up and preach against smoking but over eat themselves to death. I think they take that scripture about gluttony out of the Bible.

[U376977]

Three easy steps necessary for salvation.


1. No nose, ear, hair.- eyebrows no longer that 1/4 centimeter. --Must be verified by at least a pastor or Sunday School Superintendent using the international metric measurements system.
2. No yellow teeth allowed. Coffee and Tea drinkers, it is suggested you have immediate teeth whitening. Your shade of white is measured by standard dental charts and must be at least two shades whiter than the standard median tone.
3. Every event you plan to attend and every habit you have (including consumption of your favorite snacks--especially those high in sugar--) must be pre approved by the deacon board. Applications must be submitted at least two weeks prior to the event and must be signed by all parties and notarized by a legal authority. Any deviations to this policy will immediately suspend your rights as a Christian and doom your soul to hell. If you decide to repent--crawling in the front door of church while wearing burlap and ashes will not be accepted (unless accompanied by $1000 donation). Those seeking restoration must submit the standard repentance form approved by the deacon board, applications are considered on the first Sunday of each five Sunday month.

Any questions regarding our salvation policy please direct to the pastor the week following his annual vacation. (His vacation application is still pending with the board. There will be a meeting soon to address the possibility of a meeting to approve this action).

All other salvation requests should be directed to the General Secretary who will forward to the quarterly board meeting of the general council. Their decision is final and cannot be questioned.

[Michael Phelps]

What do you think, Michael? Do the scriptures mean what they say? Our body is the temple of God. If any man defile the body, him will God destroy. What does that mean to you?


I'm not trying to be harsh. I have my own vices that I fight against. So those verses reprove me as well.

Do they reprove you, or destroy you?

That's my point.......

[Michael Phelps]

Here's Strongs: to corrupt, to destroy
in the opinion of the Jews, the temple was corrupted or "destroyed" when anyone defiled or in the slightest degree damaged anything in it, or if its guardians neglected their duties
to lead away a Christian church from that state of knowledge and holiness in which it ought to abide
to be destroyed, to perish
in an ethical sense, to corrupt, deprave

I'm not arguing that point, I guess my question to you is this - is it ONLY tobacco that defiles our bodies?

[MikeinAR]

Here's Strongs: to corrupt, to destroy
in the opinion of the Jews, the temple was corrupted or "destroyed" when anyone defiled or in the slightest degree damaged anything in it, or if its guardians neglected their duties
to lead away a Christian church from that state of knowledge and holiness in which it ought to abide
to be destroyed, to perish
in an ethical sense, to corrupt, deprave


So, for the idea of sound doctrine, we could include those old saints that worry too much and cause unneccesary stress on their body. We could include any diabetic that doesn't conform to a strict sugar free diet. We could include any person at risk of heart disease who splurges on the occasional red meat. We could include those of us who drink soda which will literally remove varnish from a wood floor if it's left on it. And we'd most definitely, have to clean out the Pizza Parlours on Sunday night across the south and mid-west full of saint's filling their bodies with defiling food leaving them at risk for obesity and all of the infirmities and diseases that appertain.

Well at least we got that all cleared up. I'll go have some H20 and lettuce.

[Michael Phelps]

So, for the idea of sound doctrine, we could include those old saints that worry too much and cause unneccesary stress on their body. We could include any diabetic that doesn't conform to a strict sugar free diet. We could include any person at risk of heart disease who splurges on the occasional red meat. We could include those of us who drink soda which will literally remove varnish from a wood floor if it's left on it. And we'd most definitely, have to clean out the Pizza Parlours on Sunday night across the south and mid-west full of saint's filling their bodies with defiling food leaving them at risk for obesity and all of the infirmities and diseases that appertain.

Well at least we got that all cleared up. I'll go have some H20 and lettuce.

Thank you, my goatee-d friend! You have stated my own thoughts much more eloquently than I could......

oh, by the way, make sure it's purified water, not from the tap.....and make sure the lettuce has no pesticides!

[mizpeh]

So, for the idea of sound doctrine, we could include those old saints that worry too much and cause unneccesary stress on their body. We could include any diabetic that doesn't conform to a strict sugar free diet. We could include any person at risk of heart disease who splurges on the occasional red meat. We could include those of us who drink soda which will literally remove varnish from a wood floor if it's left on it. And we'd most definitely, have to clean out the Pizza Parlours on Sunday night across the south and mid-west full of saint's filling their bodies with defiling food leaving them at risk for obesity and all of the infirmities and diseases that appertain.

Well at least we got that all cleared up. I'll go have some H20 and lettuce.

Work out your own salvation with God.

If you think smoking is okay and that you're not defiling your body, God's temple, then do what pleases you and what you feel pleases the Holy Spirit.

[Michael Phelps]

Work out your own salvation with God.

If you think smoking is okay and that you're not defiling your body, God's temple, then do what pleases you and what you feel pleases the Holy Spirit.

Miz, this is not like you.

You're avoiding the question.

Here's my question - do you feel that the edict to defile not the temple ONLY applies to smoking?

Or, do you feel that the same unhealthy habits that so many have mentioned on here, like overeating, fall into the same category - the one that will send you to hell?

[mizpeh]

Do they reprove you, or destroy you?

That's my point.......

Those scriptures? they reprove me and cause me to seek God and His grace and strength to show me the ways that I may glorify Him in my body and my spirit which belong to Him. I'm not my own, I've been bought with a price.

[Sam]

Well, if it refers to physical defilement, we have a lot more to worry about than tobacco. Stuff like artificial sweeteners, preservatives, red meat, excess food intake, carbonated sodas, caffeine, and the list goes on.......

14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear Me, everyone, and understand: 15 There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man. 16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!”
17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. 18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” 20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”
Mark 7:14-23 NKJV

[Michael Phelps]

14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear Me, everyone, and understand: 15 There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man. 16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!”
17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. 18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” 20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”
Mark 7:14-23 NKJV

Ruh roh, now you've opened a can of worms!!!!!!!:club

[MikeinAR]

Work out your own salvation with God.

If you think smoking is okay and that you're not defiling your body, God's temple, then do what pleases you and what you feel pleases the Holy Spirit.

I never implied that I believed inhaling tar filled smoke into lungs didn't defile the body. It most certainly does.

What I can't do, according to scripture, is say that a person who smokes cigarettes is somehow in worse spiritual condition than others who defile their bodies through any number of other means.

Your point about Phillipians 2:12, someone working out their own salvation with fear and trembling, is key.

[mizpeh]

Miz, this is not like you.

You're avoiding the question.

Here's my question - do you feel that the edict to defile not the temple ONLY applies to smoking?

Or, do you feel that the same unhealthy habits that so many have mentioned on here, like overeating, fall into the same category - the one that will send you to hell?

No, these verses, IMHO, apply to all unhealthy habits.

Taking the verses literally, which I tend to do, then I find fault even with myself.

Do we give ourselves a pass and say these verses don't really mean what they say? Do we gloss over them? What does defiling the temple, our bodies, mean? If they mean harming the body, then we are answerable to God for what we do to His temple. It's as simple as that and as hard as that.

[Sam]

What does Paul mean by "defile the temple"?


THEREFORE, SINCE these [great] promises are ours, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from everything that contaminates and defiles body and spirit, and bring [our] consecration to completeness in the [reverential] fear of God.
2 Cor 7:1 Amplified Bible

[BrotherEastman]

One doesn't really have a choice when it comes to eating food. I'm sure that there are bad preservatives and other unknown chemicals in most (if not all) foods;however, smoking is a choice to satisfy the flesh for no productive reason, at least with food, you get some nutritional value out of it. Come on folks!

[Michael Phelps]

No, these verses, IMHO, apply to all unhealthy habits.

Taking the verses literally, which I tend to do, then I find fault even with myself.

Do we give ourselves a pass and say these verses don't really mean what they say? Do we gloss over them? What does defiling the temple, our bodies, mean? If they mean harming the body, then we are answerable to God for what we do to His temple. It's as simple as that and as hard as that.

I agree with this.

I don't condone smoking, nor am I defending it. My issue is with those who say smoking will send you to hell, but go right on overeating and driving themselves into an early grave.

And, as our good brother Sam has posted, the very words of Jesus say that we are not "defiled" by what we take into our bodies, but by what comes from our hearts.

So, I believe that the scripture is referring to a spiritual defilement, anyway. At least that's my opinion.

Should we take care of our temples? Absolutely!

Is smoking good for you? No way!

Should a Christian smoke? In my opinion, absolutely not.

But, can I say they are going to hell if they do? Nope.

[Michael Phelps]

One doesn't really have a choice when it comes to eating food. I'm sure that there are bad preservatives and other unknown chemicals in most (if not all) foods;however, smoking is a choice to satisfy the flesh for no productive reason, at least with food, you get some nutritional value out of it. Come on folks!

One has a very real choice in OVEReating food.

To say that I have no choice but to eat, that's why I'm 100lbs overweight is absurd.

[mizpeh]

I never implied that I believed inhaling tar filled smoke into lungs didn't defile the body. It most certainly does.

What I can't do, according to scripture, is say that a person who smokes cigarettes is somehow in worse spiritual condition than others who defile their bodies through any number of other means.

Your point about Phillipians 2:12, someone working out their own salvation with fear and trembling, is key.

This thread is about smoking. I've avoided going off on the other things you've been saying because, first and foremost, I want to know what you all thought "defiling the temple" means. I think it can applied to anything we do that is unhealthy. I'm struggling to overcome some things, so these verses, sting me just as much as they might others.

The bottom line is I want to please God by glorifying Him in my body and in my Spirit which are His. So I'm not trying to condemn anyone, but I'm not going to say, this is okay and that is okay and we're all going to heaven when the word of God says if we defile our bodies, God will destroy us.

[Sam]

One preacher was asked if smoking would keep a person from Heaven.
His answer was, "No, and it actually may get them there sooner."

[Michael Phelps]

This thread is about smoking. I've avoided going off on the other things you've been saying because, first and foremost, I want to know what you all thought "defiling the temple" means. I think it can applied to anything we do that is unhealthy. I'm struggling to overcome some things, so these verses, sting me just as much as they might others.

The bottom line is I want to please God by glorifying Him in my body and in my Spirit which are His. So I'm not trying to condemn anyone, but I'm not going to say, this is okay and that is okay and we're all going to heaven when the word of God says if we defile our bodies, God will destroy us.

I understand, but you can't discuss smoking as a heaven or hell issue without bringing into account the other things that "defile" the temple, IF you believe that we are defiled by what we take into our bodies.

If you believe that Jesus meant what He said, and we're not defiled by what we take in, then this whole conversation is null and void.

[Michael Phelps]

One preacher was asked if smoking would keep a person from Heaven.
His answer was, "No, and it actually may get them there sooner."

I heard another preacher say, "Smoking won't send you to hell, it will just make you smell like you've been there!"

[mizpeh]

But, can I say they are going to hell if they do? Nope.That's why I quoted that we should all work out our own salvation with God....


Jesus said we are not defiled by what goes into the body and Paul said we can defile the temple, our bodies. How do we harmonize these two statements?

[Sam]

When it says that God will "destroy" those who "defile" the temple (body) by lack of proper sleep, improper diet, lack of exercise, smoking, caffeine, alcohol, etc does it mean destroy by eternal damnation or destroy by sickness, premature death, etc?

[mizpeh]

I understand, but you can't discuss smoking as a heaven or hell issue without bringing into account the other things that "defile" the temple, IF you believe that we are defiled by what we take into our bodies.

If you believe that Jesus meant what He said, and we're not defiled by what we take in, then this whole conversation is null and void.

I believe Jesus was talking about food.

Jesus didn't go into a sermon about gluttony and moderation at the time.

[Michael Phelps]

That's why I quoted that we should all work out our own salvation with God....


Jesus said we are not defiled by what goes into the body and Paul said we can defile the temple, our bodies. How do we harmonize these two statements?

I'd do a word study. If I had time, I'd do it right now, but I don't.

When Paul said "defile the temple" maybe he was referring to the mind? Paul spoke quite often on the mind, and the battlefield of our thought processes.

He also said "Bodily exercise profiteth little", so I don't see him putting an emphasis on the physical.

But, that's just speculation on my part - I would need to study it out further.

I just think Jesus' statements made it crystal clear, at least in my opinion.

[OneAccord]

Not to justify smoking, but, we need to bear in mind that smoking is not just a "habit" like biting fingernails is a habit. Smoking, chewing, dipping is a chemical dependency. Nicotine is one of the most addictive chemicals known to man. I know its hard for people who have never used tobacco to understand why it is so hard for people to stop the disgusting habit. Its because its not just a habit. I read recently that the chemicals in tobacco products are more addictive than in Meth. Some of the chemicals are naturally occuring, but many are injected into the product to keep people addicted.

I realized that I didn't answer the question. No, I don't think a person will be lost for being chemically dependant on tobacco. However, as they grow in the Lord, I believe the Holy Spirit will 1) convict them for the harm they are doing to themselves and to others, and 2) will "endue them with power from on high" to stop.

[stmatthew]

14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear Me, everyone, and understand: 15 There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man. 16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!”
17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. 18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” 20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”
Mark 7:14-23 NKJV

So maybe the question is, Why would someone that has received salvation want to continue in the bondage and addiction that cigarettes bring with their usage?


Whom the son has made free is free indeed!!

[Michael Phelps]

So maybe the question is, Why would someone that has received salvation want to continue in the bondage and addiction that cigarettes bring with their usage?


Whom the son has made free is free indeed!!

I would agree with this assessment.

However, that wasn't the question of the thread, lol.

[Brad Murphy]

And following the train of thought, after being saved, people should begin to lose weight and start taking better care of their bodies...

[stmatthew]

Not to justify smoking, but, we need to bear in mind that smoking is not just a "habit" like biting fingernails is a habit. Smoking, chewing, dipping is a chemical dependency. Nicotine is one of the most addictive chemicals known to man. I know its hard for people who have never used tobacco to understand why it is so hard for people to stop the disgusting habit. Its because its not just a habit. I read recently that the chemicals in tobacco products are more addictive than in Meth. Some of the chemicals are naturally occuring, but many are injected into the product to keep people addicted.

So maybe the question is, Why would someone that has received salvation want to continue in the bondage and addiction that cigarettes bring with their usage?


Whom the son has made free is free indeed!!

One mind, and OneAccord!!

[Michael Phelps]

Not to justify smoking, but, we need to bear in mind that smoking is not just a "habit" like biting fingernails is a habit. Smoking, chewing, dipping is a chemical dependency. Nicotine is one of the most addictive chemicals known to man. I know its hard for people who have never used tobacco to understand why it is so hard for people to stop the disgusting habit. Its because its not just a habit. I read recently that the chemicals in tobacco products are more addictive than in Meth. Some of the chemicals are naturally occuring, but many are injected into the product to keep people addicted.

I don't care if a person is a Christian or an atheist, smoking is one of the most foolish things you can do to your body!

Forget whether it's heaven or hell, it's plain stupid!

I sympathize with those who are addicted, but there are several programs, medications, patches, gums, etc that can help one break free of this.

[Michael Phelps]

And following the train of thought, after being saved, people should begin to lose weight and start taking better care of their bodies...

Now you're just meddlin'........

[dizzyde]

And following the train of thought, after being saved, people should begin to lose weight and start taking better care of their bodies...

:snapout :club :hurtyou

[dizzyde]

Now you're just meddlin'........

AMEN!!! :amen

[crakjak]

14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear Me, everyone, and understand: 15 There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man. 16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!”
17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. 18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” 20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”
Mark 7:14-23 NKJV

I very much dislike smoking, however Bro. Sam your post is the post of the day for this thread!

The Word of God is like that double edge sword, it slices away even the traditions and false ideas of man.

Amen, to the word of God!!!

[Rico]

1 Cor 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


Does destroy mean lost because tobacco products defile the temple of God.

So do cheeseburgers and soda. Are you prepared to give them up? :D

[Rico]

If smoking tobacco is an eternal sin because it defiles the body, then so is drinking soda, most fast and fried foods, NOT exercising, etc.....
Disgusting as it is, I have always wondered why smoking is singled out. (Probably because it IS disgusting and thus easy to be.)

It's a lot easier to hate a stinky old cigarette than a nice juicy cheeseburger. :D

[Rico]

Well, if it refers to physical defilement, we have a lot more to worry about than tobacco. Stuff like artificial sweeteners, preservatives, red meat, excess food intake, carbonated sodas, caffeine, and the list goes on.......

The Bible says we can eat beef, so leave it off'm yer list!!! :D

[Rico]

Awww...good point Randy. You've stumbled upon one of my huge pet peeves. First of all, I've never took a drag of a cigarette and don't plan on it anytime soon. The nasty habit doesn't appeal to me in the least.

However, I find it comical and absurd for a 300 pound preacher who hasn't reverenced the temple of the Holy Ghost(his body) and hasn't taken his health into consideration at lunch and dinner, to tell a congregation of people that people who inhale smoke in their lungs are in sin.

That may be the case, but the sin of glutony, of which I and a lot of others in the church are sometimes guilty, goes unpreached on?? I guess it's easy to classify sin for some of those guys.

U got somethin against good looking 300lb people?!?!?!?! :D

[OneAccord]

I don't care if a person is a Christian or an atheist, smoking is one of the most foolish things you can do to your body!

Forget whether it's heaven or hell, it's plain stupid!

I sympathize with those who are addicted, but there are several programs, medications, patches, gums, etc that can help one break free of this.

I absolutely, positively and without reservation, DISAGREE with you, Micheal Phelps!!!!

Smoking is not ONE of the most foolish things a person can do to his or her body....







its THE most foolish thing you can do to your body!


Gums, patches and medicines are only as effective as the smokers willpower is strong! I taught a class one time for people who were trying to break addictive behavior. Actually, it was a program for prison inmates (this was back when people believd in "rehabilitation"). Something like AA, the program had steps to help break the addiction. In the study guide I wrote, "Building a Better YOU", I wrote about the power to change (this was a non-religious group). I wrote: "The Power to Change is your DESIRE to Change". I wrote there are 3 keys to change that are necessary: 1) Knowing we need to change, 2) Knowing how to change, and 3) Desiring to change.The last one (3) requires resolve, determination and, a change of lifestyle. Thats the hardest one for people to get- enough desire to "pay the price"!

[Rico]

Sure. So does too much soda, overeating, caffeine, processed sugar, etc.

Here's one for you - if a person is a diabetic, and their doctor has told them they need to lose weight or they'll die prematurely, and they continue to eat themselves sick, are they defiling their body?

Should they pray for healing?

Does this mean you are admitting to being a contributor in other men's sins, seing as how you are a big wig as a cereal factory? Hmmmmmm? :D

[Rico]

Is there a smoking section in heaven??

Is there McDonald's?

[Rico]

So, for the idea of sound doctrine, we could include those old saints that worry too much and cause unneccesary stress on their body. We could include any diabetic that doesn't conform to a strict sugar free diet. We could include any person at risk of heart disease who splurges on the occasional red meat. We could include those of us who drink soda which will literally remove varnish from a wood floor if it's left on it. And we'd most definitely, have to clean out the Pizza Parlours on Sunday night across the south and mid-west full of saint's filling their bodies with defiling food leaving them at risk for obesity and all of the infirmities and diseases that appertain.

Well at least we got that all cleared up. I'll go have some H20 and lettuce.

Pizza's a sin too?!?!?! THAT DONE IT!!! :D

[Rico]

One doesn't really have a choice when it comes to eating food. I'm sure that there are bad preservatives and other unknown chemicals in most (if not all) foods;however, smoking is a choice to satisfy the flesh for no productive reason, at least with food, you get some nutritional value out of it. Come on folks!

Brother, nicotine addiction is very real and very hard to overcome. Your body will literally crave it, which is a lot more than I can say about a cheeseburger making my mouth water. Also, you do have choices when it comes to what you eat. No one makes you eat sugared cereal. No one makes you drink grape kool-aid. No one make you stop at Taco Bell on the way home from church on Sunday nights. They're all choices we make.

[Rico]

That's why I quoted that we should all work out our own salvation with God....


Jesus said we are not defiled by what goes into the body and Paul said we can defile the temple, our bodies. How do we harmonize these two statements?

Good question. I think the difference lies in the reason why Jesus said what he was saying. Remember, context is everything.

[OneAccord]

Hold your breath. Go ahead, try it for 30 seconds. Feel that dizziness? Feel the pressure in your head? Burning in the lungs? Blood vessels constricting? Nerves tingling? Light headed? Felling a little panicky?














Okay.. you can breathe. You have just experienced withdrawal symtoms from the most addictive substance known to man.














Oxygen

[ForeverBlessed]

I do not look as this physical body as a holding cell or a physical building "temple" of the Holy Ghost… as in a container that holds something.

I feel it is referencing a more spiritual governing than physical building.... going to attempt to explain what I see it as. Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Dwell is used often as
katoikevw - to dwell, settle
a. metaph. divine powers, influences, etc., are said to dwell in his soul, to pervade, prompt, govern it
to dwell in, inhabit
b. God is said to dwell in the temple, i.e. to be always present for worshippers

1 Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

“Dwell in” here is Enoikeo to dwell in metaph. to dwell in one and influence him (for good)

We are governed or influenced by the Holy Ghost… the Spirit is present in our words, actions, deeds… it over takes the old….makes us new through changes in our behavior by influence. The Holy Ghost shouldn’t be viewed as a magic potion that “poofs” fills this physical body up and we “hold” him within us like a container and because we are “filled” we are automatically good... or produce good things. It takes action on our part... We submit to him, he takes control. I believe the initial evidence of that control is speaking in tongues…. the continued evidence is by what is revealed in our actions or “Fruit of the Spirit”

As we submit our will to him and his ways, the more we reflect Jesus Christ. We submit ourselves through prayer and applying the Word, walking in fellowship with him.

Good lord.... I said all of that to say this about smoking...

I do believe that a believer could struggle with smoking…and still be striving. Depending upon the growth level of their walk with God. I am not sure how long that could take place until which it would become an issue of not allowing the Holy Ghost to take control of their habit...resulting in death.

We are told "lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us," Heb 12:1 (I take this to mean we will deal as believers with sin....it is up to us to lay it aside)

Just as with gluttony (that is far more than food) and other sins of the flesh… The sins will be revealed to you by the Spirit... it is up to us to submit those things… to offer our bodies as instruments of righteousness. The result of not submitting as with any sin is spiritual death.

Romans 6:13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 5 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

[Rico]

Hold your breath. Go ahead, try it for 30 seconds. Feel that dizziness? Feel the pressure in your head? Burning in the lungs? Blood vessels constricting? Nerves tingling? Light headed? Felling a little panicky?














Okay.. you can breathe. You have just experienced withdrawal symtoms from the most addictive substance known to man.














Oxygen

What are you saying? Breathing is now a sin? LEGALIST!!! :D

[Nina]

This is how Spurgeon felt about smoking:

While Mr. Spurgeon was living at Nightingale Lane, Clapham, an excursion was one day organised by one of the young men's classes at the Tabernacle. The brake with the excursionists was to call for the President on their way to mid-Surrey.
It was a beautiful early morning, and the men arrived in high spirits, pipes and cigars alight, and looking forward to a day of unrestrained enjoyment. Mr. Spurgeon was ready waiting at the gate. He jumped up to the box-seat reserved for him, and looking round with an expression of astonishment, exclaimed: "What, gentlemen! Are you not ashamed to be smoking so early?"
Here was a damper! Dismay was on every face. Pipes and cigars one by one failed and dropped out of sight.
When all had disappeared, out came the President's cigar-case. He lit up and smoked away serenely.
The men looked at him astonished. "I thought you said you objected to smoking, Mr. Spurgeon?" one ventured.
"Oh no, I did not say I objected. I asked if they were not ashamed, and it appears they were, for they have all put their pipes away."
Amid laughter the pipes reappeared, and with puffs of smoke the party went on merrily.

[Jermyn Davidson]

If a smoker can still be addicted to smoking and be saved, so then can the crack head. However, I think that if I am honest, I don't look at crack heads and fag smokers in the same light.

There are other addictions too: sex is very addictive.

So I have three addicts in front of me: the smoker, the crack head, and the nympho. Can they all be saved and addicted still? Can a saved person become addicted and still be saved?

[Rico]

Most people who smoke a pipe don't even inhale it. I know I never did. Not on purpose anyway. I did inhale pipe smoke accidentally once, though. I bet I turned about 18 shades of green when it happened too! :D I still have all my pipes, but I haven't burned a bowl in a good long while. Maybe I will burn one in honor of this thread. :lol

[Sam]

This is how Spurgeon felt about smoking:

While Mr. Spurgeon was living at Nightingale Lane, Clapham, an excursion was one day organised by one of the young men's classes at the Tabernacle. The brake with the excursionists was to call for the President on their way to mid-Surrey.
It was a beautiful early morning, and the men arrived in high spirits, pipes and cigars alight, and looking forward to a day of unrestrained enjoyment. Mr. Spurgeon was ready waiting at the gate. He jumped up to the box-seat reserved for him, and looking round with an expression of astonishment, exclaimed: "What, gentlemen! Are you not ashamed to be smoking so early?"
Here was a damper! Dismay was on every face. Pipes and cigars one by one failed and dropped out of sight.
When all had disappeared, out came the President's cigar-case. He lit up and smoked away serenely.
The men looked at him astonished. "I thought you said you objected to smoking, Mr. Spurgeon?" one ventured.
"Oh no, I did not say I objected. I asked if they were not ashamed, and it appears they were, for they have all put their pipes away."
Amid laughter the pipes reappeared, and with puffs of smoke the party went on merrily.

Another story about Spurgeon:
Someone got on him about his smoking. His response was that he would quit it if it became a problem. When asked how he would know it had become a problem, Spurgeon replied, "When I find myself smoking more than one cigar at a time."

[Sherri]

Most people who smoke a pipe don't even inhale it. I know I never did. Not on purpose anyway. I did inhale pipe smoke accidentally once, though. I bet I turned about 18 shades of green when it happened too! :D I still have all my pipes, but I haven't burned a bowl in a good long while. Maybe I will burn one in honor of this thread. :lol

Why in the world would you keep all those pipes? Just curious. If it's something you felt to give up, why keep the pipes around?:crazy

[stmatthew]

Is there McDonald's?

The bible says that I can eat McDonalds hamburgers as long as I thank God for the food.

1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:


So your argument is invalid.

Smoking is taking into the body something that you know to destroy the body.

Smoking can and usually leads to a bondage of addiction. The cigarette becomes your master.

The financial cost of smoking is enough to keep the wise man from taking up the habit, or quiting if he started in the past.

Those that smoke put themselves at a greater risk of emphysema, lung cancer,and heart attacks.

Even unsaved people recognize cigarette smoking is destructive and a "sin" to the human body. Let not your good be evil spoken of. Abstain from the appearance of evil.

[BrotherEastman]

One has a very real choice in OVEReating food.

To say that I have no choice but to eat, that's why I'm 100lbs overweight is absurd.
Did I say that, or are you just artistic enough to put words in my mouth Hoss? We're talking about eating food compared to smoking cigarrettes. Overeating is just as much of a sin as smoking. (there, does that help?)

[BrotherEastman]

So do cheeseburgers and soda. Are you prepared to give them up? :D
Along with the other 99.9% of all other foods.:tease

[MikeinAR]

The Holy Ghost shouldn’t be viewed as a magic potion that “poofs” fills this physical body up and we “hold” him within us like a container and because we are “filled” we are automatically good... or produce good things. It takes action on our part... We submit to him, he takes control. I believe the initial evidence of that control is speaking in tongues…. the continued evidence is by what is revealed in our actions or “Fruit of the Spirit”

Forever, your entire post is fantastic and I agree with it 100%. The quoted paragraph above should be required reading for new converts and those that are new to the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Action combined with submission to the spirit of God will lead to changed lives in every area.

The amazing thing is when it's done through humble submission to the Holy Ghost with him leading a person, they find theirself convicted of things they hadn't expected or even thought of as wrong. Personal submission to the Holy Ghost daily and his will will change people much more effectively than programs and workshops and guidelines, IMO.

[Tim Rutledge]

Put more plainly, is it possible for a person who smokes/uses tobacco products to truly be a Christian? Is it possible for that person to be saved while still smoking/chewing/dipping? Why or why not?

A) No. They know better, and went backward.

B) Yes. They realize they are sinning, and keep trying to quit, and are going forward.

C) Really... only God knows.

[RevDWW]

I do know that everyone that is not saved will be a smoker!

[Tim Rutledge]

:preachI do know that everyone that is not saved will be a smoker!

[Rico]

Why in the world would you keep all those pipes? Just curious. If it's something you felt to give up, why keep the pipes around?:crazy

Because I happen to like my pipe collection. I didn't feel led to give up smoking a pipe. I didn't feel led to give up smoking cigarettes either. I just got tired of stinkin all the time and practically coughing up a lung every now and then. My body told me it was time to say adios to the cigarettes, but there's nothing anyone could have said to convince me it was a sin. At least not any more of a sin than any of the other things I see the holy people addicted to, like coffee, sugar, greasy foods, watching too much tv, etc. etc. It just so happens that this cigarette addiction is an easy target for those addicted to other things that can cause just as many health problems as smoking does. I wonder how many folks have died from heart attacks (the number one killer in the USA) over their arteries being clogged from all the junk food we eat in this country. What I am saying is that there are very few people who have reason to point fingers at anyone when it comes to doing things that are unhealthy.

[Sherri]

Because I happen to like my pipe collection. I didn't feel led to give up smoking a pipe. I didn't feel led to give up smoking cigarettes either. I just got tired of stinkin all the time and practically coughing up a lung every now and then. My body told me it was time to say adios to the cigarettes, but there's nothing anyone could have said to convince me it was a sin. At least not any more of a sin than any of the other things I see the holy people addicted to, like coffee, sugar, greasy foods, watching too much tv, etc. etc. It just so happens that this cigarette addiction is an easy target for those addicted to other things that can cause just as many health problems as smoking does. I wonder how many folks have died from heart attacks (the number one killer in the USA) over their arteries being clogged from all the junk food we eat in this country. What I am saying is that there are very few people who have reason to point fingers at anyone when it comes to doing things that are unhealthy.You're right. Eddie and I still laugh about a really large UPC minister who was ranting and raving over people going to the rodeo!! Never did figure that one out.

[Rico]

The bible says that I can eat McDonalds hamburgers as long as I thank God for the food.

1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:


So your argument is invalid.

Smoking is taking into the body something that you know to destroy the body.

Smoking can and usually leads to a bondage of addiction. The cigarette becomes your master.

The financial cost of smoking is enough to keep the wise man from taking up the habit, or quiting if he started in the past.

Those that smoke put themselves at a greater risk of emphysema, lung cancer,and heart attacks.

Even unsaved people recognize cigarette smoking is destructive and a "sin" to the human body. Let not your good be evil spoken of. Abstain from the appearance of evil.


Keep eating them greasy cheeseburgers and you'll be thanking God He didn't let you die from the heart attack they gave you or the diabetes you developed from being so fat you can't even tie your own shoes.

Also, what makes you think people aren't slaves to sugar? Try giving up everything you eat with some sort of processed sweetener in it and see how crazy you go in a short amount of time. Lemme know how that one works out for you.

The bottom line is that it has become popular to point fingers at people who smoke, so that we can feel better about the number of other things we are doing that aren't good for our bodies. It has become the politically correct thing to do, so church people now have made bedfellows with the rest of the world on this one issue. Never mind the fact that it isn't the chemicals that occur naturally in tobacco leaves that is causing all these health problems. It's all the other chemicals sprayed on the crops to make the tobacco grow a certain way, or taste a certain way, or have a certain consistency to it. Of course, no one is interested in reading about that kind of truth because it doesn't fit with their "it's evil and of the devil" mindset. It's easier to write people who smoke off as being rebellious against God, even though God is the one who created the tobacco leaf in the first place. Kinda reminds me of the arguments against the use of marijuana, another plant God created.

Oh well, I've come to expect this kind of warped thinking from the Church, so I can't say that I am surprised by it anymore.

[Rico]

Along with the other 99.9% of all other foods.:tease

I hear ya, Bro. We're trying to get completely off fast food, but sometimes grabbing a burger on the run is the only feasible option. The other night we ended up ordering from Wendy's because it was the only feasible option for us, seeing as how we got in around 9pm, that's too late to cook up a regular meal. Still, we've managed to cut the fast food out quite a bit over the last couple of years.

[Rico]

You're right. Eddie and I still laugh about a really large UPC minister who was ranting and raving over people going to the rodeo!! Never did figure that one out.

The rodeo? What on earth could be wrong with going to the rodeo? Well, never mind, Sister. This thread will get hijacked and 50 pages later, when the smoke clears (no pun intended :D), someone will end up banned, another will end up with their feelings hurt, and untold numbers of lurkers will never view Christianity the same way again. Ya heard me? :lol

[Pro31:28]

One preacher was asked if smoking would keep a person from Heaven.
His answer was, "No, and it actually may get them there sooner."

:ursofunny
We had a pastor that once said, Smoking won't send you to hell, it just makes you smell like you have been there"

After I posted this, I saw Micheal Phelps had quoted the same thing... Sorry :) (guess great minds think alike)

What about fire-fighters? They intentionally run into buildings filling thier lungs with smoke, in order to save a human life, is that wrong? (I know this is a stupid question, but this post has gotten a little crazy!)

[Pro31:28]

One doesn't really have a choice when it comes to eating food. I'm sure that there are bad preservatives and other unknown chemicals in most (if not all) foods;however, smoking is a choice to satisfy the flesh for no productive reason, at least with food, you get some nutritional value out of it. Come on folks!


But people do have a choice when eating food. Is there any nutritional value in a candy bar or a piece of cheesecake, or a soda? IMO Pringles (once you pop, you just can't stop) can be addicting too.
I myself go to Olive Garden and every time I go, I know I overeat, those breadsticks are fabulous! I don't think this will send me to hell, but I also don't use that scripture for judging smokers either.

[Michael Phelps]

Does this mean you are admitting to being a contributor in other men's sins, seing as how you are a big wig as a cereal factory? Hmmmmmm? :D

Guilty as charged, Yer Honor!

However, we are reducing the sugar content in all of our cereals.....same great taste, less processed sugar!

[Michael Phelps]

Did I say that, or are you just artistic enough to put words in my mouth Hoss? We're talking about eating food compared to smoking cigarrettes. Overeating is just as much of a sin as smoking. (there, does that help?)

It helps very much, Little Joe! I'm sure Paw is happy too!:ursofunny


And, I agree with your assessment about over eating........it's just that you don't hear that preached against very often!

[Michael Phelps]

:ursofunny
We had a pastor that once said, Smoking won't send you to hell, it just makes you smell like you have been there"

After I posted this, I saw Micheal Phelps had quoted the same thing... Sorry :) (guess great minds think alike)

What about fire-fighters? They intentionally run into buildings filling thier lungs with smoke, in order to save a human life, is that wrong? (I know this is a stupid question, but this post has gotten a little crazy!)

Ha, wonder if it was the same pastor!?!?

[Baron1710]

Put more plainly, is it possible for a person who smokes/uses tobacco products to truly be a Christian? Is it possible for that person to be saved while still smoking/chewing/dipping? Why or why not?

Does my avitar tell you anything about my opinion?

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/AFFpost/cigar.gif

If you don't know the picture is Spurgeon with a cigar.

[Steve Epley]

They will feel at home in Hell since there is a smoking section there.:aaa

[Rico]

They will feel at home in Hell since there is a smoking section there.:aaa



Yes. And you will fit right in in Heaven, seeing as how you like to look down on so many people. From Heaven you will be able to look down on all the people in Hell who just didn't quite live up to the standard. :D Heheheheheheheheeee!

[Baron1710]

They will feel at home in Hell since there is a smoking section there.:aaa

I think that section is right next to the food court in hell where the gluttons go.

[Cindy]

So people with eating disorders will go to hell? BTW, overeating is not the only way to be a glutton. I am glad some of y'all aren't going to be my judge.

[Baron1710]

So people with eating disorders will go to hell? BTW, overeating is not the only way to be a glutton. I am glad some of y'all aren't going to be my judge.

I think most people that pointed out the eating part of it were really saying that those who are busy sending smokers to hell are being inconsistent.

[Cindy]

I think most people that pointed out the eating part of it were really saying that those who are busy sending smokers to hell are being inconsistent.

Yeah, I know Baron. But there is a lot of joking and not so joking references to fat preachers here. The sad part of generalizations made in ignorance just so someone can get a little poke at preachers. There are a lot of people struggling with the problem and read here and not be able to separate it from themselves. Most eating disorders are from an emotional place. I was anorexic and thankfully God healed me before it killed me.

[BrotherEastman]

But people do have a choice when eating food. Is there any nutritional value in a candy bar or a piece of cheesecake, or a soda? IMO Pringles (once you pop, you just can't stop) can be addicting too.
I myself go to Olive Garden and every time I go, I know I overeat, those breadsticks are fabulous! I don't think this will send me to hell, but I also don't use that scripture for judging smokers either.
Yes, people have a choice of which foods to eat; however, I think you missed my point, most food (if not all) has something bad in it that you really don't want to put into your body. For me, it isn't about gluttony, but about what foods you can avoid. Almost everything we eat is "processed" so it becomes a challenge of which foods to avoid. It only becomes a challenge to avoid smoking if one is addicted to the nicotene. Therefore, it is a matter of choice when it comes to smoking, but a matter of survival when it comes to eating. Does that make better sense?

[Michael Phelps]

Yeah, I know Baron. But there is a lot of joking and not so joking references to fat preachers here. The sad part of generalizations made in ignorance just so someone can get a little poke at preachers. There are a lot of people struggling with the problem and read here and not be able to separate it from themselves. Most eating disorders are from an emotional place. I was anorexic and thankfully God healed me before it killed me.

I don't agree with this, Cindy.

I think most of us are, as Baron said, pointing out the inconsistencies of preachers, or anyone for that matter, who will put someone in hell for smoking, all the while getting larger and larger, and unhealthier and unhealthier.

Some may have eating disorders, but in my experience, most of us suffer from a lack of self-control, myself included.

[DividedThigh]

ah yes self control, a fleeting thing, especially the jaw

[Rico]

Yes, people have a choice of which foods to eat; however, I think you missed my point, most food (if not all) has something bad in it that you really don't want to put into your body. For me, it isn't about gluttony, but about what foods you can avoid. Almost everything we eat is "processed" so it becomes a challenge of which foods to avoid. It only becomes a challenge to avoid smoking if one is addicted to the nicotene. Therefore, it is a matter of choice when it comes to smoking, but a matter of survival when it comes to eating. Does that make better sense?

No, it doesn't because you could always grow your own food, raise your own chickens, hogs, cows and whatnot for meat. You could also go fishin for your meat. So, you see, you choose to eat the food you buy at the store.

[Brad Murphy]

I am overweight myself... around 220 pounds... but I am working on it. I just don't believe that people should be able to blame their genes or whatever for their weight. If you go to other countries (other than England or Australia) you would understand that this is a problem with our Western culture, and if anything, Christians should be BETTER keepers of their temple than other people... more and more I expect someone who takes their religion seriously to take their health and maintenance and upkeep of their bodies just as seriously. We can't ALL have glandular or other medical excuses for being overweight...

[Monkeyman]

I don't agree with this, Cindy.

I think most of us are, as Baron said, pointing out the inconsistencies of preachers, or anyone for that matter, who will put someone in hell for smoking, all the while getting larger and larger, and unhealthier and unhealthier.

Some may have eating disorders, but in my experience, most of us suffer from a lack of self-control, myself included.I disagree, I tuned out after the comments, FAT UPC PREACHERS...there was intent, and THAT grossed me out.

[Monkeyman]

I tell you what amazes me is the big, fat UPC preachers that get up and preach against smoking but over eat themselves to death. I think they take that scripture about gluttony out of the Bible.The post....as if no other denomination has obese preachers that preach against smoking, the nerve of this poster, shameful, really shameful!

[BrotherEastman]

No, it doesn't because you could always grow your own food, raise your own chickens, hogs, cows and whatnot for meat. You could also go fishin for your meat. So, you see, you choose to eat the food you buy at the store.
Okay, go buy you a farm because you cannot raise cattle in a housing development or an apartment complex. Make sure the veggies that you grow come from your own garden and not some farm that uses pesticides, and why you're at it, share your wealth so that every living Apostolic can do exactly what your donig to avoid the 99.9% of the foods that God doesn't want them to eat.














Well, I guess you really don't have all the answers do you?






I know, I know its still a choice. How many people do you realistically know will do what you have suggested? Get real.

[BrotherEastman]

No, it doesn't because you could always grow your own food, raise your own chickens, hogs, cows and whatnot for meat. You could also go fishin for your meat. So, you see, you choose to eat the food you buy at the store.
Btw, make sure you know that the lake, pond, river, ocean, or stream that you fish in isn't contaminated with fish that has mercury in it.:snapout

[Rico]

Okay, go buy you a farm because you cannot raise cattle in a housing development or an apartment complex. Make sure the veggies that you grow come from your own garden and not some farm that uses pesticides, and why you're at it, share your wealth so that every living Apostolic can do exactly what your donig to avoid the 99.9% of the foods that God doesn't want them to eat.

Well, I guess you really don't have all the answers do you?

I know, I know its still a choice. How many people do you realistically know will do what you have suggested? Get real.

I can't help it if your choice to move into an urban area has made it so that you have to buy your food from a grocery store, but it was still your choice to move into an urban area, so it's still your fault!!! You chose to move there, and that choice included having to go to the grocery store instead of growing your own food. REPENT, I say! REPENT! :D

[Steve Epley]

I think that section is right next to the food court in hell where the gluttons go.

The eternal bar-b-q.

[Michael Phelps]

The post....as if no other denomination has obese preachers that preach against smoking, the nerve of this poster, shameful, really shameful!

You know, Monkeyperson, you are correct.

Somehow I missed this one, and I agree, uncalled for. Good catch.

[Pro31:28]

Besides, if we weren't allowed to eat retaurant food, where else would we go after church to gossip about everybody?

[Ferd]

Save a veggie, eat a booger.

[Pro31:28]

:ursofunnySave a veggie, eat a booger.

[Esther]

I absolutely, positively and without reservation, DISAGREE with you, Micheal Phelps!!!!

Smoking is not ONE of the most foolish things a person can do to his or her body....

its THE most foolish thing you can do to your body!

Gums, patches and medicines are only as effective as the smokers willpower is strong! I taught a class one time for people who were trying to break addictive behavior. Actually, it was a program for prison inmates (this was back when people believd in "rehabilitation"). Something like AA, the program had steps to help break the addiction. In the study guide I wrote, "Building a Better YOU", I wrote about the power to change (this was a non-religious group). I wrote: "The Power to Change is your DESIRE to Change". I wrote there are 3 keys to change that are necessary: 1) Knowing we need to change, 2) Knowing how to change, and 3) Desiring to change.The last one (3) requires resolve, determination and, a change of lifestyle. Thats the hardest one for people to get- enough desire to "pay the price"!

I have to disagree with you on this one. I agree smoking is really bad for you. But I think sexual sins are even more damaging in today's society with all the killing diseases that go with it.

I like Sam's post and think there is much merit in what he said.

I do not think smoking is a salvational issue, but I believe the closer you draw to God the less you would want to smoke. I don't think it is pleasing to God for anyone to smoke. JMO

[Bro-Larry]

So people with eating disorders will go to hell? BTW, overeating is not the only way to be a glutton. I am glad some of y'all aren't going to be my judge.

Just in case some might get the wrong message from her post. Cindy's a twig.

[Sam]

Yeah, I know Baron. But there is a lot of joking and not so joking references to fat preachers here. The sad part of generalizations made in ignorance just so someone can get a little poke at preachers. There are a lot of people struggling with the problem and read here and not be able to separate it from themselves. Most eating disorders are from an emotional place. I was anorexic and thankfully God healed me before it killed me.

So, a person struggling with an eating disorder is OK
but someone struggling with alcohol, tobacco, gambling, or sex addictions is not OK.

[stmatthew]

I do hope there will be a few smokers in heaven. :D



http://images.netshops.com/mgen/digimarc.ms?img=master:MEC003.jpg&h=368&w=368

[Aquila]

Put more plainly, is it possible for a person who smokes/uses tobacco products to truly be a Christian? Is it possible for that person to be saved while still smoking/chewing/dipping? Why or why not?

I believe that smoking is a sin with consequences against the health of the individual.

As far as destroying the temple goes...eating fast food for lunch every day is just as bad, if not worse, than having a smoke.

[Steve Epley]

If anyone has any doubts where this forum is heading we have 13 pages discussing if smoking is a sin? Good grief!!!!!
Anyone who smokes is NOT saved or folks who think smokers are saved are saved are not saved.

[MikeinAR]

If anyone has any doubts where this forum is heading we have 13 pages discussing if smoking is a sin? Good grief!!!!!
Anyone who smokes is NOT saved or folks who think smokers are saved are saved are not saved.

Interestingly enough, your making a proclamation of total certainty on eternal salvation while conveniently side stepping whether every other defilement of the human body mentioned in this thread will be met with such sure judgment.

Bro. Epley how about enlightening us on gluttony, excessive worrying, eating disorders and all other defilements.

[Steve Epley]

Interestingly enough, your making a proclamation of total certainty on eternal salvation while conveniently side stepping whether every other defilement of the human body mentioned in this thread will be met with such sure judgment.

Bro. Epley how about enlightening us on gluttony, excessive worrying, eating disorders and all other defilements.

That is NOT the subject smoking is the subject. No one is defending gluttony.
This is like saying how you say adultery is wrong when some folks are child molesters. One wrong does not make another wrong less than wrong.

[Nina]

I've read that eating a Big Mac is the same as smoking three cigarettes.

If You can't smoke them,


Can You eat them?

[MikeinAR]

That is NOT the subject smoking is the subject. No one is defending gluttony.
This is like saying how you say adultery is wrong when some folks are child molesters. One wrong does not make another wrong less than wrong.

Certainly so. Obviously, the sin of smoking is defilement of the body as mentioned in scripture and thus logic would argue that every defilement would be judged as severely as you have stated cigarette smoking will be. One wrong doesn't make another one less wrong.

[Steve Epley]

That is NOT the subject smoking is the subject. No one is defending gluttony.
This is like saying how you say adultery is wrong when some folks are child molesters. One wrong does not make another wrong less than wrong.

Certainly so. Obviously, the sin of smoking is defilement of the body as mentioned in scripture and thus logic would argue that every defilement would be judged as severely as you have stated cigarette smoking will be. One wrong doesn't make another one less wrong.

Smoking is a nasty filthy habit that is sinful if you smoked 1 cigarrette a year.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I've read that eating a Big Mac is the same as smoking three cigarettes.

If You can't smoke them,


Can You eat them?

:lol


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/dnttreadonme900/homer.jpg

[U376977]

If anyone has any doubts where this forum is heading we have 13 pages discussing if smoking is a sin? Good grief!!!!!
Anyone who smokes is NOT saved or folks who think smokers are saved are saved are not saved.


Bro. Epley, I just love the way you cut thru all the "stuff" and state it in a way that is so decisive.

A holiness minister pastor friend of mine was approached by an evangelist who asked for a meeting. While holding a pack of Malboros in his shirt pocket. The pastor said, "I can't have you preach in my church, you are not called to preach." The evangelist protested, "yes I am!" The pastor said, "you need to get the Holy Ghost, in fact you need to get saved and baptized." He explained that no one can claim the Holy Ghost sucking on a cigarrett-and certainly not claim to be a minister.
I think you and he would have gotten along quite well.

[Aquila]

Smoking is no worse than over eating or being overweight. Both show a lack of self control and bondage. Both come with built in judgments that will destroy the body.

[Steve Epley]

Smoking is no worse than over eating or being overweight. Both show a lack of self control and bondage. Both come with built in judgments that will destroy the body.

Good grief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know folks as big as the side of a house that eats like birds and other skinney as refugees that puts the all you can eat buffets out of business.
I am not talking about self control I am speaking of a nasty filthy habit that anyone who has the Holy Ghost does not do.

[stmatthew]

Good grief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know folks as big as the side of a house that eats like birds and other skinney as refugees that puts the all you can eat buffets out of business.
I am not talking about self control I am speaking of a nasty filthy habit that anyone who has the Holy Ghost does not do.


HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Elder, I am sorry, but I am enjoying your frustration right now. I will repent for it. I am anxious to see what will be defended by some next.

:ursofunny

[Aquila]

I know a person who was filled with the Holy Ghost and water baptized...all the while still addicted to cigarettes. It took nearly a year for their deliverance to come. It was day before a Watch Night service just prior to Communion. The individual committed themselves to be clean at least a day or they wouldn't take communion, they were so convicted. They succeeded...and have been clean since. They were delivered by the convicting power of the Spirit.

They were saved before they quit. In fact, if they weren't, God should have been told... because he gave them the Holy Ghost. It's funny how so many treat the Holy Ghost like it's an impersonal energy that flows even into unregenerate hearts. Folks, the Holy Ghost is the SPIRIT OF GOD. God chose to dwell in this person before they were delivered from smoking. That tells me that if a person were still unsaved because of smoking...they couldn't get the Holy Ghost.

I would treat smoking like an alcohol problem. These are things that often hold on to some saints. These are things to get deliverance from. These are things that can cause us to loose out on all the blessings and rewards God has for us. These can shorten our lives and destroy the destiny God may have had for us. They can hinder our witness and keep us from experiencing the fullness of our salvation.

So if one were addicted to smoking I might not say they are unsaved...but I would say it disqualifies them from being an elder in the church. An elder wasn't to be given to wine...smoking is a similar bondage.

[Aquila]

Good grief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know folks as big as the side of a house that eats like birds and other skinney as refugees that puts the all you can eat buffets out of business.
I am not talking about self control I am speaking of a nasty filthy habit that anyone who has the Holy Ghost does not do.

Have you ever been addicted to smoking? It's an addiction. Its a fact that nicotine addiction is stronger than heroine addiction.

It's not just a "habit" one can lay down. Such experiences are miraculous and wonderful deliveraces....but not everyone receives a miraculous deliverance from addiction. Some struggle with it until their deliverance comes.

[Rico]

Good grief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know folks as big as the side of a house that eats like birds and other skinney as refugees that puts the all you can eat buffets out of business.
I am not talking about self control I am speaking of a nasty filthy habit that anyone who has the Holy Ghost does not do.

So you can have the Holy Ghost and a judgemental attitude, but you can't have the Holy Ghost and smoke cigarettes? Is this what I hear all you haters saying? It's a good thing none of you get to decide who does and who doesn't have the Holy Ghost, regardless of what you may think. I smoked for a couple of years after I received the Holy Ghost, and started back up again a
few years after I had quit and still had the Holy Ghost the whole entire time. Amazing, ain't it? I suppose next you are going to try to tell me I didn't have the Holy Ghost while I was a smoker, as if God has given you supernatural Holy Ghost x-ray vision. Puhleeeze!


















BTW, you never did send me your address so I could send that certain thing we talked about to you.

[Steve Epley]

I know a person who was filled with the Holy Ghost and water baptized...all the while still addicted to cigarettes. It took nearly a year for their deliverance to come. It was day before a Watch Night service just prior to Communion. The individual committed themselves to be clean at least a day or they wouldn't take communion, they were so convicted. They succeeded...and have been clean since. They were delivered by the convicting power of the Spirit.

They were saved before they quit. In fact, if they weren't, God should have been told... because he gave them the Holy Ghost. It's funny how so many treat the Holy Ghost like it's an impersonal energy that flows even into unregenerate hearts. Folks, the Holy Ghost is the SPIRIT OF GOD. God chose to dwell in this person before they were delivered from smoking. That tells me that if a person were still unsaved because of smoking...they couldn't get the Holy Ghost.

I would treat smoking like an alcohol problem. These are things that often hold on to some saints. These are things to get deliverance from. These are things that can cause us to loose out on all the blessings and rewards God has for us. These can shorten our lives and destroy the destiny God may have had for us. They can hinder our witness and keep us from experiencing the fullness of our salvation.

So if one were addicted to smoking I might not say they are unsaved...but I would say it disqualifies them from being an elder in the church. An elder wasn't to be given to wine...smoking is a similar bondage.

I do NOT believe anyone has the Holy Ghost that smokes y'all fill this thread with 10,000 testimonies and I won't believe ONE of them. Years ago repented folks quit smoking much less HYoly Ghost filled. Can you smoke pot and have the Holy Ghost?

[Aquila]

I do believe that God will convict and set a saint free of smoking. He will not leave them in bondage...even if he has to give them cancer to rattle their cage, by the time they go into glory, they will be delivered.

[Rico]

I do NOT believe anyone has the Holy Ghost that smokes y'all fill this thread with 10,000 testimonies and I won't believe ONE of them. Years ago repented folks quit smoking much less HYoly Ghost filled. Can you smoke pot and have the Holy Ghost?

If someone can't smoke pot and keep the Holy Ghost, then they can't take prescription pain killers and keep the Holy Ghost either. The level of ignorance among God's people amazes me sometimes.

[Aquila]

I do NOT believe anyone has the Holy Ghost that smokes y'all fill this thread with 10,000 testimonies and I won't believe ONE of them. Years ago repented folks quit smoking much less HYoly Ghost filled. Can you smoke pot and have the Holy Ghost?

I've seen men high on drugs get the Holy Ghost while the smell is still on their clothing. I've seen some delivered instantly and others struggle for a time and be set free some time later. God doesn't always stay in the little box you try to lock him into.

Saw a man stinking drunk on alcohol get the Holy Ghost down in a Soul Winners Boot Camp. We don't have to clean ourselves up alone...God abides and leads us in the process.

[AbundantGrace]

If anyone has any doubts where this forum is heading we have 13 pages discussing if smoking is a sin? Good grief!!!!!
Anyone who smokes is NOT saved or folks who think smokers are saved are saved are not saved.

Again, you must be reading and getting your information from the KEV - KING EPLEY VERSION of the Bible! :snapout

[Steve Epley]

I've seen men high on drugs get the Holy Ghost while the smell is still on their clothing. I've seen some delivered instantly and others struggle for a time and be set free. God doesn't always work in the little box you try to lock him into.

I do believe folks can receive the Holy Ghost bound with all sorts of things but the Holy Ghost delivers. You can't have the Holy Ghost and be on crack, heroin, LSD, alcohol, nicotine. I do NOT believe ONE word of it.

[Aquila]

I do believe folks can receive the Holy Ghost bound with all sorts of things but the Holy Ghost delivers. You can't have the Holy Ghost and be on crack, heroin, LSD, alcohol, nicotine. I do NOT believe ONE word of it.

Deliverance is often a process. While you might think the saint should focus on quiting smoking...God's delivered him of his porn habit and convicting him to bring his wife to church. God knows when and how to deal with the smoking in his own good time. And when God deals with it...God will deliver.

[AbundantGrace]

Bro. Epley, I just love the way you cut thru all the "stuff" and state it in a way that is so decisive.

A holiness minister pastor friend of mine was approached by an evangelist who asked for a meeting. While holding a pack of Malboros in his shirt pocket. The pastor said, "I can't have you preach in my church, you are not called to preach." The evangelist protested, "yes I am!" The pastor said, "you need to get the Holy Ghost, in fact you need to get saved and baptized." He explained that no one can claim the Holy Ghost sucking on a cigarrett-and certainly not claim to be a minister.
I think you and he would have gotten along quite well.

Sounds like it - Two self-righteous preachers who act like they went to the Cross to die for sins and now are therefore, the righteous judge for all humanity!

[Aquila]

I firmly believe that if God doesn't deliver a smoker instantly...Eply would doubt that even God is saved! LOL

[AbundantGrace]

Good grief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know folks as big as the side of a house that eats like birds and other skinney as refugees that puts the all you can eat buffets out of business.
I am not talking about self control I am speaking of a nasty filthy habit that anyone who has the Holy Ghost does not do.

I beg your pardon. When I was filled with the baptism of the Holy Ghost, I had a 2 pack a day cigarette habit. Yes, it was a bad habit, but I had the Holy Ghost at the exact same time I was taking a draw on a Marlboro. I know that you'll have some divine revelation that tells you that I didn't really receive the Holy Ghost, but my reply will simply be - The devil is a liar! Again - :snapout

[AbundantGrace]

I do NOT believe anyone has the Holy Ghost that smokes y'all fill this thread with 10,000 testimonies and I won't believe ONE of them. Years ago repented folks quit smoking much less HYoly Ghost filled. Can you smoke pot and have the Holy Ghost?

Whether you "Believe" it or not, does not change the FACT that it happens. Don't put limits on God, just because you have a legalistic tunnel vision... Again - :snapout

[Aquila]

Wow...Eply...you ever know a saved, blood bought, saint of God struggle with sin? Of course...let me guess...you instantly think they became unsaved and need to get saved again. I have news for you...God sees things that are not as though they are...he knows and speaks the end from the beginning. God knows that he will at some point deliver the saint of God from the struggles they have and that they will enter into Heavenly joys unspeakable. In God's mind he isn't worried that they'll be lost...God knows their future. They are in his eyes..."saved".

Salvation is a lifelong process. Deliverance from addiction can also be a process.

[AbundantGrace]

If someone can't smoke pot and keep the Holy Ghost, then they can't take prescription pain killers and keep the Holy Ghost either. The level of ignorance among God's people amazes me sometimes.

Amen Brother Rico! It blows my mind and I've got to got to repent right now for my horrible attitude. I've allowed this to get under my skin and I'm about to blow my stack. Lord forgive me!

[Aquila]

Eply...it's the presence of the Holy Ghost in the smoker that convicts them of the sinfulness of the destructive habit. If the Holy Ghost departed on the very next drag...they'd be left to their own devices without hope of deliverance.

I thank God that His Spirit abides with the addict...because it's this abiding presence of a loving God that convicts the soul and delivers.

For some it's miraculous and instantaneous. For others it's a process.

[Steve Epley]

Fill the thread up with testimonies and chatter in some kind of tongues like a chipmunk but I don't believe ONE word of it. Cigarrette suckers and booze drinkers don't have the Holy Ghost.

[Aquila]

Fill the thread up with testimonies and chatter in some kind of tongues like a chipmunk but I don't believe ONE word of it. Cigarrette suckers and booze drinkers don't have the Holy Ghost.

And if that's so... neither do over eaters or fat preachers. ;)

It's all a sin against the body.

[Rico]

Fill the thread up with testimonies and chatter in some kind of tongues like a chipmunk but I don't believe ONE word of it. Cigarrette suckers and booze drinkers don't have the Holy Ghost.

Brother Epley, you can scream it as loud and as long as your heart desires. It still won't make what you are saying true. I know for a fact I had the Holy Ghost during my time as a cigarette smoker. Neither you nor anyone else is going to be able to take that away from me either. So go ahead with your wolflike huffing and puffing in your efforts to tear down my house, but you're only blowing hot air.

[Steve Epley]

And if that's so... neither do over eaters or fat preachers. ;)

It's all a sin against the body.

Is there ONE passage that speaks of FAT being wrong? Gluttony yes however Fat?

[AbundantGrace]

Eply...it's the presence of the Holy Ghost in the smoker that convicts them of the sinfulness of the destructive habit. If the Holy Ghost departed on the very next drag...they'd be left to their own devices without hope of deliverance.

I thank God that His Spirit abides with the addict...because it's this abiding presence of a loving God that convicts the soul and delivers.

For some it's miraculous and instantaneous. For others it's a process.

Amen! Amen! Amen! I know that this one will certainly blow his mind, but I'll put it in there anyway. I was a meth-addict for a number of years... Finally had a major overdose and my heart stopped at the age of 30 years old. After being revived, I was a broken man and wanted my life changed then and there. My dad, a UPC pastor came... I was placed into drug rehab (Still an addict)... While there, I prayed through to the baptism of the Holy Ghost (Still an addict)... After spending nearly 3 months in treatment, with a burning desire to get better and with the amazing grace and strength of my God, I came out a changed man. However, I had not been delivered nor able to kick the cigarette habit. I wanted to, but my body would not allow me too. Finally, after about 4 weeks of being out of the treatment facility, I felt the Holy Ghost tell me to throw them away. The moment I felt that in my spirit, I obeyed and instantly, the addiction was gone. God delivered me, but it was about 3 months following my receiving the Holy Ghost!

I don't care if Brother Epley or anyone else for that matter wants to tell me that it couldn't, wouldn't or didn't happen, I WAS THERE WHEN IT HAPPENED, SO I GUESS I OUGHT TO KNOW!

Today, God has allowed this ex-addict and ex-smoker to plant a church in Mississippi, which is rapidly growing under the anointing of the Holy Ghost and through the Grace of God. I even have some people in my church who are young Holy Ghost filled saints, still struggling with cigarettes.

Smoking is FAR more addictive than Crystal Meth or Cocaine. You're talking to someone who truly knows first hand.

[Rico]

Amen Brother Rico! It blows my mind and I've got to got to repent right now for my horrible attitude. I've allowed this to get under my skin and I'm about to blow my stack. Lord forgive me!

Don't let Brother Epley get under your skin. He's not nearly the judgmental, arrogant, holier than thou he likes to portray himself as at times.

[Aquila]

Let's look at a verse in CONTEXT....

I Corinthians 3:1-23
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's;
22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;
23And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

The primary point here is about division within the body, meaning THE CHURCH. If we cause sectarian divisions within the body through cults of personality we destroy the body (i.e. the church) and those causing this division God will destroy!

[Steve Epley]

Off to bed to rest my natural body. Good night you Marlboro folks. :whistle

[AbundantGrace]

And if that's so... neither do over eaters or fat preachers. ;)

It's all a sin against the body.

Amen - And Brother Epley, based upon the size of your cheeks, you may be on shaky ground! :club

[AbundantGrace]

Brother Epley, you can scream it as loud and as long as your heart desires. It still won't make what you are saying true. I know for a fact I had the Holy Ghost during my time as a cigarette smoker. Neither you nor anyone else is going to be able to take that away from me either. So go ahead with your wolflike huffing and puffing in your efforts to tear down my house, but you're only blowing hot air.

Can you have the Holy Ghost and Blow Hot Air?

[Aquila]

Is there ONE passage that speaks of FAT being wrong? Gluttony yes however Fat?

Fat is the result of over indulgence and vile and wreckless behaviors and eating. More people die of heart disease relating to obesity than lung cancer every year. I'd say being FAT is a more widespread abomination destroying health within the church and society at large than smoking. More of our diseases stem from being fat than smoking or drinking a glass of wine with dinner.

Yes, being FAT is also a sin against the body.

[Steve Epley]

Amen - And Brother Epley, based upon the size of your cheeks, you may be on shaky ground! :club

That is soooooooooooooooooo funny I am hardly fat. MAYBE 15 lbs over what the idea is. Wearing the same size suit I have worn for 25 years. Some adjustment in the pants not much. BUT if I was fat would that mean I was a glutton? How so?

[AbundantGrace]

Is there ONE passage that speaks of FAT being wrong? Gluttony yes however Fat?

Is there one scripture that speaks of SMOKING being wrong? It is harmful to your body, but so is being obese and I do know that in some circumstances, people can have thyroid problems or something that causes them to be overweight, but by far, the majority of obesity is from over eating and eating the wrong foods. There is ABSOLUTELY no difference. Food can be an addiction as well.

[Aquila]

That is soooooooooooooooooo funny I am hardly fat. MAYBE 15 lbs over what the idea is. Wearing the same size suit I have worn for 25 years. Some adjustment in the pants not much. BUT if I was fat would that mean I was a glutton? How so?

It's not about weight Eply...it's about body fat percentage. I know folks who are rather "thin" but they're still blubbery wrecks begging for a heart attack.

[Rico]

Fat is the result of over indulgence and vile and wreckless behaviors and eating. More people die of heart disease relating to obesity than lung cancer every year. I'd say being FAT is a more widespread abomination destroying health within the church and society at large than smoking. More of our diseases stem from being fat than smoking or drinking a glass of wine with dinner.

Yes, being FAT is a sin against the body.

Yo, Aqua Man, some people are naturally fat, Bro. Even when I was a baby I was a fat baby. In fact, I have never been what anyone would consider thin. No doubt my eating habits have played a role in the size I've reached, but I will never be thin, regardless of what changes I make to my eating habits.

[Aquila]

Is there one scripture that speaks of SMOKING being wrong? It is harmful to your body, but so is being obese and I do know that in some circumstances, people can have thyroid problems or something that causes them to be overweight, but by far, the majority of obesity is from over eating and eating the wrong foods. There is ABSOLUTELY no difference. Food can be an addiction as well.

Add sedentary lifestyles. Most could work it off if they cared enough about their temple.

[AbundantGrace]

That is soooooooooooooooooo funny I am hardly fat. MAYBE 15 lbs over what the idea is. Wearing the same size suit I have worn for 25 years. Some adjustment in the pants not much. BUT if I was fat would that mean I was a glutton? How so?

Easy now, you're gonna raise your blood pressure. That's dangerous when you have a weight problem. I'm not saying that you do, I'm simply saying that based upon your chubby cheeks, it looks like you may be on shaky ground. Perhaps you have a thyroid problem or something, because I know that you haven't eaten a burger or fries or fried foods or chocolate or anything else that could cause heart disease or heart problems or DEFILE your temple. This is not an indictment or an accusation, I'm just concerned about you and want to make sure your soul is alright... That's all... Just trying to be a blessing. :hanky

[Aquila]

Yo, Aqua Man, some people are naturally fat, Bro. Even when I was a baby I was a fat baby. In fact, I have never been what anyone would consider thin. No doubt my eating habits have played a role in the size I've reached, but I will never be thin, regardless of what changes I make to my eating habits.

I agree...sometimes it's genetics. But that doesn't mean that God desired you to be fat. Genetic conditions that are unhealthy and contribute to early death or sickness are a result of the fall...i.e....the result of "sin". If we weren't fallen sinful creatures we'd live forever in perfect health.

So I agree, some are naturally fat. But while it may not be the result of a sin you personally committed...it is a result of the fallen sinful condition of your genes due to being a son of Adam. It's not your fault...but it's sin's work.

All conditions leading to imperfection, sickness, disease, and death are the result of sin and man's fallen nature.

[AbundantGrace]

It's not about weight Eply...it's about body fat percentage. I know folks who are rather "thin" but they're still blubbery wrecks begging for a heart attack.

He may need to get his BMI (Body, Mass, Index) checked. That will tell if he's too overweight. Sometimes 15lbs can do it. I'm getting concerned...

[Aquila]

I've got to go to bed. But with all that being said...I do believe that a saint struggling with an addiction (smoking in this case) is saved. But praise God...I don't believe God will allow them to remain in bondage. God will deliver them.

[AbundantGrace]

I've got to go to bed. But with all that being said...I do believe that a saint struggling with an addiction (smoking in this case) can be saved. But praise God...I don't believe God will allow them to remain in bondage. God will deliver them.

Amen! God is so good and His grace truly is so amazing! Good night and God bless...

[Pro31:28]

Yo, Aqua Man, some people are naturally fat, Bro. Even when I was a baby I was a fat baby. In fact, I have never been what anyone would consider thin. No doubt my eating habits have played a role in the size I've reached, but I will never be thin, regardless of what changes I make to my eating habits.



Rico, While I agree with your general argument, I have to take issue with your last statement. It's not true. Did any "fat" or "pleasantly Plump" people come out of concentration camps?

[BrotherEastman]

Wow! Looks like Elder E got under some skin. Well, anyway smoking is a sin as well as gluttony, but the plain truth of it is............................smoking is still a sin. Trying to justify smoking by bringing in gluttony is just a smokescreen that many of us shouldn't fall for. I understand that there are quite a few of you who have had issues with smoking and I thank God that you were delivered. Those of you that were delivered know that smoking is wrong, otherwise, you wouldn't have sought for deliverance and tried to quit because your conscience was eating at you.

[Baron1710]

Wow! Looks like Elder E got under some skin. Well, anyway smoking is a sin as well as gluttony, but the plain truth of it is............................smoking is still a sin. Trying to justify smoking by bringing in gluttony is just a smokescreen that many of us shouldn't fall for. I understand that there are quite a few of you who have had issues with smoking and I thank God that you were delivered. Those of you that were delivered know that smoking is wrong, otherwise, you wouldn't have sought for deliverance and tried to quit because your conscience was eating at you.

Or as is often the case someone told them it was a sin and so they tried to quit, not so much a case of conscience but peer pressure. Peer pressure can be positive but don't make it equal to conscience. Here is a perfect example.


While Mr. Spurgeon was living at Nightingale Lane, Clapham, an excursion was one day organised by one of the young men's classes at the Tabernacle. The brake with the excursionists was to call for the President on their way to mid-Surrey.
It was a beautiful early morning, and the men arrived in high spirits, pipes and cigars alight, and looking forward to a day of unrestrained enjoyment. Mr. Spurgeon was ready waiting at the gate. He jumped up to the box-seat reserved for him, and looking round with an expression of astonishment, exclaimed: "What, gentlemen! Are you not ashamed to be smoking so early?"
Here was a damper! Dismay was on every face. Pipes and cigars one by one failed and dropped out of sight.
When all had disappeared, out came the President's cigar-case. He lit up and smoked away serenely.
The men looked at him astonished. "I thought you said you objected to smoking, Mr. Spurgeon?" one ventured.
"Oh no, I did not say I objected. I asked if they were not ashamed, and it appears they were, for they have all put their pipes away."
Amid laughter the pipes reappeared, and with puffs of smoke the party went on merrily.

http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/cigars.htm

[Brad Murphy]

For the record, I don't smoke and never have... I just consider it another vice like coffee (which I DO drink), which is just a liquid stimulant that more people are addicted to than they will admit.

[Bro-Larry]

Wow! Looks like Elder E got under some skin. Well, anyway smoking is a sin as well as gluttony, but the plain truth of it is............................smoking is still a sin. Trying to justify smoking by bringing in gluttony is just a smokescreen that many of us shouldn't fall for. I understand that there are quite a few of you who have had issues with smoking and I thank God that you were delivered. Those of you that were delivered know that smoking is wrong, otherwise, you wouldn't have sought for deliverance and tried to quit because your conscience was eating at you.

I have a thread on "How to quit smoking". Just capitulate, give up trying to quit, in your own ability. Give those smokies to Jesus. Just say, "Jesus, I can't do it myself. Please help me". Then just rest in Him. Believe that Jesus has delivered you, even if you continue to smoke for a while. Don't let condemnation stop you.

[mizpeh]

Or as is often the case someone told them it was a sin and so they tried to quit, not so much a case of conscience but peer pressure. Peer pressure can be positive but don't make it equal to conscience. Here is a perfect example.


While Mr. Spurgeon was living at Nightingale Lane, Clapham, an excursion was one day organised by one of the young men's classes at the Tabernacle. The brake with the excursionists was to call for the President on their way to mid-Surrey.
It was a beautiful early morning, and the men arrived in high spirits, pipes and cigars alight, and looking forward to a day of unrestrained enjoyment. Mr. Spurgeon was ready waiting at the gate. He jumped up to the box-seat reserved for him, and looking round with an expression of astonishment, exclaimed: "What, gentlemen! Are you not ashamed to be smoking so early?"
Here was a damper! Dismay was on every face. Pipes and cigars one by one failed and dropped out of sight.
When all had disappeared, out came the President's cigar-case. He lit up and smoked away serenely.
The men looked at him astonished. "I thought you said you objected to smoking, Mr. Spurgeon?" one ventured.
"Oh no, I did not say I objected. I asked if they were not ashamed, and it appears they were, for they have all put their pipes away."
Amid laughter the pipes reappeared, and with puffs of smoke the party went on merrily.

http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/cigars.htm

Are you using this not only as an example of peer pressure but that it is not a sin to smoke?

[Baron1710]

Are you using this not only as an example of peer pressure but that it is not a sin to smoke?

I will let Bro. C. H. Spurgeon answer for himself.

To the Editor of the Daily Telegraph.
SIR,

I demur altogether and most positively to the statement that to smoke tobacco is in itself a sin. It may become so, as any other indifferent action may, but as an action it is no sin.

Together with hundreds of thousands of my fellow-Christians I have smoked, and, with them, I am under the condemnation of living in habitual sin, if certain accusers are to be believed. As I would not knowingly live even in the smallest violation of the law of God, and sin in the transgression of the law, I will not own to sin when I am not conscious of it.

There is growing up in society a Pharisaic system which adds to the commands of God the precepts of men; to that system I will not yield for an hour. The preservation of my liberty may bring upon me the upbraidings of many good men, and the sneers of the self-righteous; but I shall endure both with serenity so long as I feel clear in my conscience before God.

The expression "smoking to the glory of God" standing alone has an ill sound, and I do not justify it; but in the sense in which I employed it I still stand to it. No Christian should do anything in which he cannot glorify God; and this may be done, according to Scripture, in eating and drinking and the common actions of life.

When I have found intense pain relieved, a weary brain soothed, and calm, refreshing sleep obtained by a cigar, I have felt grateful to God, and have blessed His name; this is what I meant, and by no means did I use sacred words triflingly.

If through smoking I had wasted an hour of my time—if I had stinted my gifts to the poor—if I had rendered my mind less vigorous—I trust I should see my fault and turn from it; but he who charges me with these things shall have no answer but my forgiveness.

I am told that my open avowal will lessen my influence, and my reply is that if I have gained any influence through being thought different from what I am, I have no wish to retain it. I will do nothing upon the sly, and nothing about which I have a doubt.

I am most sorry that prominence has been given to what seems to me so small a matter—and the last thing in my thoughts would have been the mention of it from the pulpit; but I was placed in such a position that I must either by my silence plead guilty to living in sin, or else bring down upon my unfortunate self the fierce rebukes of the anti-tobacco advocates by speaking out honestly. I chose the latter; and although I am now the target for these worthy brethren, I would sooner endure their severest censures than sneakingly do what I could not justify, and earn immunity from their criticism by tamely submitting to be charged with sin in an action which my conscience allows.

Yours truly,

C. H. SPURGEON.

Nightingale Lane, Clapham, Sept. 23
http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/cigars.htm

[mizpeh]

LOL, okay then...the question to Spurgeon's comment "intense pain relieved, a weary brain soothed, and calm, refreshing sleep obtained by a cigar", does not the alcoholic and the cigarette addict feel exactly the same when taking that first hit off a cigarette or drink from the bottle after not having any for a time? Spurgeon is justifying his addiction by thanking God for the substance he is addicted to.

And if Spurgeon is truly not addicted to smoking tobacco should he consider his weaker brethren who will be emboldened by this giant of a Christian leader to do the same as him only without moderation?

And finally and most importantly does smoking defile the temple of the Holy Ghost? Do we destroy our body which is God's temple by smoking?

[Baron1710]

LOL, okay then...the question to Spurgeon's comment "intense pain relieved, a weary brain soothed, and calm, refreshing sleep obtained by a cigar", does not the alcoholic and the cigarette addict feel exactly the same when taking that first hit off a cigarette or drink from the bottle after not having any for a time? Spurgeon is justifying his addiction by thanking God for the substance he is addicted to.

And if Spurgeon is truly not addicted to smoking tobacco should he consider his weaker brethren who will be emboldened by this giant of a Christian leader to do the same as him only without moderation?

And finally and most importantly does smoking defile the temple of the Holy Ghost? Do we destroy our body which is God's temple by smoking?

Now see you are making me go after a story and a quote from Spurgeon about addictions and the weaker brother...

As to the last no I don't believe smoking defiles the temple, the reality is our bodies are dying from the day we are born.



Now for the stories...

"If I ever find myself smoking to excess, I promise I shall quit entirely."
"What would you call smoking to excess?" the man asked.
"Why, smoking two cigars at the same time!" was the answer.


"Enjoying your 'bacca again, sir!" said old George, Mr. Spurgeon's tried and trusted servant, one day when his master was lighting a cigar.
"I can do without my 'bacca' a good deal easier than you can, George," said the master.
"I don't believe you can, sir."
"Very well, George, don't smoke again until I do."
"Agreed, sir."
A week passed—a fortnight. Poor old George was dying for his pipe. One was asked to intercede with the master that George might be allowed to have it.
"No, no!" said Mr. Spurgeon. "He made a bargain; let him stick to it."
Eventually George was allowed to smoke, but Mr. Spurgeon did not have a cigar for months after that. . . .
http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/cigars.htm

“I neither said nor implied that it was sinful to drink wine; nay, I said that, in and by itself, this might be done without blame. But I remarked that, if I knew that another would be led to take it by my example, and this would lead them on to further drinking, and even to intoxication, then I would not touch it.”
http://trevinwax.com/2006/12/06/spurgeon-the-drinker-the-rest-of-the-story/

[LUKE2447]

What I love is the simple fact that people say Yes smoking is a sin yet go against God's dietary laws. Forget heaven and hell issue on food. God gave you a start in the right direction on what is defiling to your health and what is not when it comes to meat. Yet many yell oh I don't have to follow that! You are throwing me under the law blah blah blah. hmm I guess God was just off the rocker when he said it is an abomination unto you. And I guess God also changes his opinions like the wind every day of the week. It is, no it isn't, it is aaah no it isn't!

I would like a answer to a most basic question.

Do you want God in everything you do?

Then don't you think the most essential thing you do for your body every day is eat the proper foods to be healthy? Do you not really think God cares about your TOTAL well being? Then follow his plan on what to eat and not to eat. Yes, sure the spiritual is eternal but the flesh is important in the temporal to keep one sound in body and mind. The physical and spiritual are parallel in many ways.

[Nina]

Good grief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know folks as big as the side of a house that eats like birds and other skinney as refugees that puts the all you can eat buffets out of business.
I am not talking about self control I am speaking of a nasty filthy habit that anyone who has the Holy Ghost does not do.


Brother,

Do You know any folk as big as the side of a house who eat like vacuum cleaners?

Do You believe they are saved?

Do You fellowship with them or preach against them?


Nina

[Nina]

Whether you "Believe" it or not, does not change the FACT that it happens. Don't put limits on God, just because you have a legalistic tunnel vision... Again - :snapout


Good Morning Abundant Grace,

I limited God. I believed I couldn't get the Holy Ghost until I quit smoking.

Now I know that He COULD HAVE given it to me but HE WORKS ACCORDING TO THE FAITH THAT WAS WORKING IN ME! (sorry for the screaming!)

He has seen my through bouts of gluttony (which I see as idolatry), and NEVER removed His Spirit!

I'm SO thankful that He doesn't give us what we deserve!

Nina

[AbundantGrace]

Wow! Looks like Elder E got under some skin. Well, anyway smoking is a sin as well as gluttony, but the plain truth of it is............................smoking is still a sin. Trying to justify smoking by bringing in gluttony is just a smokescreen that many of us shouldn't fall for. I understand that there are quite a few of you who have had issues with smoking and I thank God that you were delivered. Those of you that were delivered know that smoking is wrong, otherwise, you wouldn't have sought for deliverance and tried to quit because your conscience was eating at you.

No Brother,

My conscience wasn't eating at me, I wanted to live a longer life and I knew that continuing with the smoking would cut it shorter. No, I was still smoking with a clear conscience, spiritually speaking, I just wanted to see forty and beyond.

[AbundantGrace]

For the record, I don't smoke and never have... I just consider it another vice like coffee (which I DO drink), which is just a liquid stimulant that more people are addicted to than they will admit.

Yes, I drink far too much coffee and when I don't get it, the withdrawal symptoms come alive. But, my conscience isn't bothering me in the least.

[AbundantGrace]

Good Morning Abundant Grace,

I limited God. I believed I couldn't get the Holy Ghost until I quit smoking.

Now I know that He COULD HAVE given it to me but HE WORKS ACCORDING TO THE FAITH THAT WAS WORKING IN ME! (sorry for the screaming!)

He has seen my through bouts of gluttony (which I see as idolatry), and NEVER removed His Spirit!

I'm SO thankful that He doesn't give us what we deserve!

Nina

Amen!!! It's nothing but the Grace of God, that unearned, undeserved favor.

[mizpeh]

Now see you are making me go after a story and a quote from Spurgeon about addictions and the weaker brother...Do you read Spurgeon as a devotional? :tease

As to the last no I don't believe smoking defiles the temple, the reality is our bodies are dying from the day we are born. Even though our outward man perishes daily that doesn't mean we should speed the process along and disrespect the tabernacle God has given us to live in on this earth. We are disrespecting what God has made and we are disrespecting the house God has chosen to put His Spirit in by defiling it.

I can't see how you can say smoking doesn't defile or pollute our bodies. I'd rather hear you make a case that God will destroy the body and save the soul than say what you did above "I don't believe smoking defiles the temple". Or make the case that the Bible says EVERY SIN is without the body except fornication......therefore smoking is without the body and is not a sin.
Nor can I agree with Spurgeon that we are glorifying God if we smoke tobacco just because we give thanks and praise Him for tobacco.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 1 Cor 3:16-17

Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. 1 Cor 6:18-20



Now for the stories...

"If I ever find myself smoking to excess, I promise I shall quit entirely."
"What would you call smoking to excess?" the man asked.
"Why, smoking two cigars at the same time!" was the answer.LOL, legalist!!!!


"Enjoying your 'bacca again, sir!" said old George, Mr. Spurgeon's tried and trusted servant, one day when his master was lighting a cigar.
"I can do without my 'bacca' a good deal easier than you can, George," said the master.
"I don't believe you can, sir."
"Very well, George, don't smoke again until I do."
"Agreed, sir."
A week passed—a fortnight. Poor old George was dying for his pipe. One was asked to intercede with the master that George might be allowed to have it.
"No, no!" said Mr. Spurgeon. "He made a bargain; let him stick to it."
Eventually George was allowed to smoke, but Mr. Spurgeon did not have a cigar for months after that. . . .
http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/cigars.htmWhat's your point? George was bound up by cigars and Spurgeon had control over his own will, 1 Cor 7:37, which is good for Spurgeon and bad for George. But nevertheless, smoking defiles the body. We can live without smoking.

“I neither said nor implied that it was sinful to drink wine; nay, I said that, in and by itself, this might be done without blame. But I remarked that, if I knew that another would be led to take it by my example, and this would lead them on to further drinking, and even to intoxication, then I would not touch it.”
http://trevinwax.com/2006/12/06/spurgeon-the-drinker-the-rest-of-the-story/I agree with Spurgeon on topic. :tease

[Baron1710]

Do you read Spurgeon as a devotional? :tease

Just on the topic of Cigars.:lol

I can't see how you can say smoking doesn't defile or pollute our bodies. I'd rather hear you make a case that God will destroy the body and save the soul than say what you did above "I don't believe smoking defiles the temple". Or make the case that the Bible says EVERY SIN is without the body except fornication......therefore smoking is without the body and is not a sin.
Nor can I agree with Spurgeon that we are glorifying God if we smoke tobacco just because we give thanks and praise Him for tobacco.



I didn't say it doesn't pollute our bodies, I said it doesn’t defile the temple, Which I think has a spiritual significance rather than physical. I just had a hamburger and a Coke for lunch it would be pretty easy to say those defile my body too.

[Timmy]

Just on the topic of Cigars.:lol




I didn't say it doesn't pollute our bodies, I said it doesn’t defile the temple, Which I think has a spiritual and significance rather than physical. I just had a hamburger and a Coke for lunch it would be pretty easy to say those defile my body too.

I agree. Lots of things are unhealthy for us. But are they sin? Is only a 100% organic, fat-free, whatever-free (choose whichever studies you want to believe) diet acceptable to God? Does God get mad if we don't drink enough water?

Doubt it.

[Rico]

Rico, While I agree with your general argument, I have to take issue with your last statement. It's not true. Did any "fat" or "pleasantly Plump" people come out of concentration camps?

Those people were completely starved. No one in their right mind is going to starve themselves that way.

[Rico]

Wow! Looks like Elder E got under some skin. Well, anyway smoking is a sin as well as gluttony, but the plain truth of it is............................smoking is still a sin. Trying to justify smoking by bringing in gluttony is just a smokescreen that many of us shouldn't fall for. I understand that there are quite a few of you who have had issues with smoking and I thank God that you were delivered. Those of you that were delivered know that smoking is wrong, otherwise, you wouldn't have sought for deliverance and tried to quit because your conscience was eating at you.

Brother Eastman, the Bible pretty much spells out what sin is, and I don't recall seeing smoking on the list. I agree it is bad for the body, but this notion that it's sin is just popular opinion.

[AbundantGrace]

Brother Eastman, the Bible pretty much spells out what sin is, and I don't recall seeing smoking on the list. I agree it is bad for the body, but this notion that it's sin is just popular opinion.

The traditions of men... :snapout PEOPLE!!!

[Rico]

For the record, I don't smoke and never have... I just consider it another vice like coffee (which I DO drink), which is just a liquid stimulant that more people are addicted to than they will admit.

Nicotine and caffeine are in the same family of drugs.

[Nahum]

The seedy side of AFF.


People justifying their sins.

[steve p]

Hmmmmm
So many addictions have consequences that affect others in the immediate. The alcoholic who drives drunk, hits another car, people are killed. The drug addict who breaks into a home to steal so he can supply his habit. But, what about the pastor who can't stay away from the chinese buffet. Or, the music minister who spends way too much time away from the family while working for the church. These actions don't break the law, cause immediate death, nor are there dire consequences immediately. But, are they sinful?
Hmmm....I believe anything that controls me and that I am not in control of is sin. If something other than God is in charge of what I do, how I act, where I go, etc. then I am in sin. ANYTHING that seperates me from God is sinful.
ANYTHING that takes the place of God is sinful. Now, I think the right thing to do is get this telephone pole of judgementalism out of my eye before I get the toothpick of smoking out of yours.

Sober 17 years
Non-Smoker/Tobacco user 3 years
Judge and Jury......still working on that....and by the way ....that KILLS too!
Blessings!
Steve

[AbundantGrace]

The seedy side of AFF.


People justifying their sins.

The self-righteous pharisees of AFF.

People attaching yokes upon people that aren't of God.

[Baron1710]

The seedy side of AFF.


People justifying their sins.

Put PP down in the "smoking is a sin" category.

[AbundantGrace]

Put PP down in the "smoking is a sin" category.

Oh, I've already got him in another category.

The MDP - Modern Day Pharisees

[Nahum]

The seedy side of AFF.


People justifying their sins.

The self-righteous pharisees of AFF.

People attaching yokes upon people that aren't of God.

Put PP down in the "smoking is a sin" category.

Oh, I've already got him in another category.

The MDP - Modern Day Pharisees

Because I think smoking is a sin?

:snapout

Dude, you're warped.

[Baron1710]

Because I think smoking is a sin?

:snapout

Dude, you're warped.

PP,

Are you calling the, "prince of preachers" a sinner?

[Nahum]

PP,

Are you calling the, "prince of preachers" a sinner?

Yes.

[Rico]

LOL, okay then...the question to Spurgeon's comment "intense pain relieved, a weary brain soothed, and calm, refreshing sleep obtained by a cigar", does not the alcoholic and the cigarette addict feel exactly the same when taking that first hit off a cigarette or drink from the bottle after not having any for a time? Spurgeon is justifying his addiction by thanking God for the substance he is addicted to.

And if Spurgeon is truly not addicted to smoking tobacco should he consider his weaker brethren who will be emboldened by this giant of a Christian leader to do the same as him only without moderation?

And finally and most importantly does smoking defile the temple of the Holy Ghost? Do we destroy our body which is God's temple by smoking?

Mizpeh, there is no guarantee that someone who smokes will develop any sort of disease whatsoever. It increases the risk, but there's no guarantee that smoking, chewing, or dipping is going to give someone cancer. In fact, there is at least one form of tobacco use that has never been connected with cancer. It's the oldest known form of tobacco use, nasal snuff.

[Baron1710]

Yes.

When we get to heaven I'm going to tell him you said that.

[Nahum]

When we get to heaven I'm going to tell him you said that.

Okay.

Are you a sinner?

[Nina]

Brother,

Do You know any folk as big as the side of a house who eat like vacuum cleaners?

Do You believe they are saved?

Do You fellowship with them or preach against them?


Nina


Just don't want this question to get lost from Bro Epley

[Baron1710]

Okay.

Are you a sinner?

I wondered if that was your meaning in your response. Do I sin? Yes. Do I live a lifestyle of sin? I hope not.

I think because we have heard the sinner saved by grace thing so much we tend to believe it. To me a sinner is someone who is separated from God by a lifestyle of sin. A Christian who sins is not a sinner. But that is all in how we define it.

[Nahum]

We are all sinners, shaved by Grace.

[Baron1710]

We are all sinners, shaved by Grace.

Will smoking cause you to be a sinner, not saved by grace.

[Nahum]

Will smoking cause you to be a sinner, not saved by grace.


Continuing in sin, with no intention of repentance, will lead to a loss of relationship with Jesus Christ.

[mizpeh]

Mizpeh, there is no guarantee that someone who smokes will develop any sort of disease whatsoever. It increases the risk, but there's no guarantee that smoking, chewing, or dipping is going to give someone cancer. In fact, there is at least one form of tobacco use that has never been connected with cancer. It's the oldest known form of tobacco use, nasal snuff.
Rico, tobacco products harm our bodies in other ways than just causing cancer. I work in the health field and I take care of people everyday who suffer the side effects of smoking. Have you read the studies on second hand smoke? or the studies on babies who are born to smoking mothers?

Cigarettes, chewing, dipping, cigars, pipes do not have any benefit to our bodies nor are they neutral, they only harm.

[Baron1710]

Continuing in sin, with no intention of repentance, will lead to a loss of relationship with Jesus Christ.

So based on your previous statement that smoking was a sin, one who continues to smoke is unsaved?

What about men like Spurgeon who lived before there was evidence that smoking could be harmful to your health was it a sin then, or is sin only in the knowledge that it can be harmful?

[mizpeh]

So based on your previous statement that smoking was a sin, one who continues to smoke is unsaved?

What about men like Spurgeon who lived before there was evidence that smoking could be harmful to your health was it a sin then, or is sin only in the knowledge that it can be harmful?

Have you ever smoked, Baron?

[Rico]

Rico, tobacco products harm our bodies in other ways than just causing cancer. I work in the health field and I take care of people everyday who suffer the side effects of smoking. Have you read the studies on second hand smoke? or the studies on babies who are born to smoking mothers?

Cigarettes, chewing, dipping, cigars, pipes do not have any benefit to our bodies nor are they neutral, they only harm.

Mizpeh, I am not denying that smoking has risks associated with it. However, the use of tobacco products do not guarantee that someone will develop illness because of it. Otherwise, everyone who smokes would die from smoking related diseases.

Also, the risks vary depending on the type of tobacco use. Smoking cigarettes is the riskiest, followed by oral tobacco, followed by pipes and cigars (assuming those users don't inhale). Using tobacco nasally has never been connected with any form of cancer whatsoever, and it has been studied to death. In countries like Sweden, where oral tobacco (snus) is regulated as a food product, the incidences of cancers of the mouth are extremely low, especially when compared to stats in the US, where tobacco companies aren't regulated.

[Pro31:28]

Ok Y'all let's Just get to the point here.
It is so much easier to call something that OTHER people do (especially things that don't appeal to us) Sin. It's a lot easier to defend the things that WE do as excusable ("I HAVE to eat", "I NEED my coffee", "I CAN"T sleep without my prescription meds", " I am not judging, I am Fruit inspecting".. Etc)... Ultimately God is the Judge and until some of US get the Log out of our own eye let's leave the cigarettes in theirs, alone...
Just my opinion

[Baron1710]

Have you ever smoked, Baron?

Yes, but I didn't inhale.

[Brad Murphy]

I wonder if people who used opium before it was illegal were sinning? Or was it just self-medicating like taking over the counter meds, etc.

[Rico]

Yes, but I didn't inhale.


Sounds like you are either a cigar/pipe man, or a big fan of Bill Clinton. :D

[AbundantGrace]

We are all sinners, shaved by Grace.

This is not a HAIR thread!

[LUKE2447]

Pro31:28

true but at what point is sin not pointed out? Again as I pointed out earlier in this thread, why do many not eat after God's dietary laws? Those where given to keep us from defiling our health yet most churches today ignore them like they never mattered. Seems to me God wants to make you full in all areas of life. So to me why do we ignore God's Word when it comes to his dietary laws?

[Baron1710]

Sounds like you are either a cigar/pipe man, or a big fan of Bill Clinton. :D

It was a reference to Bill Clinton.

[mizpeh]

Yes, but I didn't inhale.

Haha.........I did inhale for many years and then I quit for a year (in my nonChristian days) and restarted. I had pneumonia twice and bronchitis. I'd cough up junk in the morning from my lungs but I didn't develop that coarse voice many long time smokers have.

I became physically ill when I started smoking again, I felt like vomiting every time I smoked but I persisted until my body adapted!!! Stupid, I know.

When I became a Christian, the urge to smoke was totally gone after I was baptized. I wasn't saved in a church and it was a few months before I found believers to fellowship with. It took me a year to find an Apostolic church. So the conviction I felt about smoking cigarettes was not because of preaching nor peer pressure. I struggled for about 9 months before I finally quit for good. God graciously gave me deliverance despite myself.

Smoking defiles our bodies which are the dwelling place of God.

[Rico]

Pro31:28

true but at what point is sin not pointed out? Again as I pointed out earlier in this thread, why do many not eat after God's dietary laws? Those where given to keep us from defiling our health yet most churches today ignore them like they never mattered. Seems to me God wants to make you full in all areas of life. So to me why do we ignore God's Word when it comes to his dietary laws?

I can agree with the idea that the dietary laws in the Bible are a good guide for our eating habits, with one exception. Today's pork is very different from what it was even 50 years ago. I saw a program on the History Channel that dealt with how much leaner and healthier today's pork is, compared with what it was years ago.

[Baron1710]

Haha.........I did inhale for many years and then I quit for a year (in my nonChristian days) and restarted. I had pneumonia twice and bronchitis. I'd cough up junk in the morning from my lungs but I didn't develop that coarse voice many long time smokers have.

I became physically ill when I started smoking again, I felt like vomiting every time I smoked but I persisted until my body adapted!!! Stupid, I know.

When I became a Christian, the urge to smoke was totally gone after I was baptized. I wasn't saved in a church and it was a few months before I found believers to fellowship with. It took me a year to find an Apostolic church. So I wasn't feeling convicted about smoking cigarettes because of preaching nor because of peer pressure. I struggled for about 9 months before I finally quit for good. God graciously gave me deliverance but I had snubbed.

Smoking defiles our bodies which are the dwelling place of God.

So God lives in your lungs?

[Rico]

So God lives in your lungs?

Apparently, He lives there but not in the arteries, seeing as how it's ok to eat whatever we want until they become clogged. Smokers are rank sinners without the Holy Ghost, but those who eat fried chicken 3 times a week are holy and righteous.

[Baron1710]

Apparently, He lives there but not in the arteries, seeing as how it's ok to eat whatever we want until they become clogged. Smokers are rank sinners without the Holy Ghost, but those who eat fried chicken 3 times a week are holy and righteous.

You guys took away my cigarettes and now my fried chicken?

[Rico]

You guys took away my cigarettes and now my fried chicken?

Yup. Next we're coming after your sugar. :tease

[LUKE2447]

I can agree with the idea that the dietary laws in the Bible are a good guide for our eating habits, with one exception. Today's pork is very different from what it was even 50 years ago. I saw a program on the History Channel that dealt with how much leaner and healthier today's pork is, compared with what it was years ago.

Rico,

sorry but I disagree you are missing the point on pork. They don't sweat and do not eliminate the toxins from the body among just the few issues that are naturally inherent. The meat might be better in some things but it still is very tainted not including the parasitic aspects.

[Baron1710]

Rico,

sorry but I disagree you are missing the point on pork. They don't sweat and do not eliminate the toxins from the body among just the few issues that are naturally inherent. The meat might be better in some things but it still is very tainted not including the parasitic aspects.

Arise Peter kill and eat...

[Baron1710]

Yup. Next we're coming after your sugar. :tease

Quick hide the salt.

[Rico]

Rico,

sorry but I disagree you are missing the point on pork. They don't sweat and do not eliminate the toxins from the body among just the few issues that are naturally inherent. The meat might be better in some things but it still is very tainted not including the parasitic aspects.

The issues with parasites aren't an issue, as long as you thoroughly cook the meat. The commercially grown animals get a much better diet than back when Farmer Brown was the main source for hogs. Also, a lot has been done through selective breeding to eliminate the fat content in pork. Like most things, even hogs have been affected by our technological advances.

We need to use wisdom when looking at the dietary laws in the Bible. It's very important to take into account the differences in how animals are raised today versus how they were raised back when these laws were written. It can also be spiritually dangerous to make strict laws out of dietary guidelines in the Bible.

[LUKE2447]

The issues with parasites aren't an issue, as long as you thoroughly cook the meat. The commercially grown animals get a much better diet than back when Farmer Brown was the main source for hogs. Also, a lot has been done through selective breeding to eliminate the fat content in pork. Like most things, even hogs have been affected by our technological advances.

We need to use wisdom when looking at the dietary laws in the Bible. It's very important to take into account the differences in how animals are raised today versus how they were raised back when these laws were written. It can also be spiritually dangerous to make strict laws out of dietary guidelines in the Bible.


I understand your points and I agree with some. It still does not change the natural factors in the genetics which is what the law/God based things on. Again that type of reasoning attempts to undermine and out think God's reasoning by modern technology when clearly his reference was to genetic traits. Catfish don't expel toxins just like pigs. Guess what not good for your body. Also do some research on the commercial industry it not as good as you think it is. Not sure of what areas of study you have done but the parasitic aspect can go beyond the cooking of meat. Most don't eat extra well done. Also notice God didn't give a method for the cooking to justify the food. Also many pigs if in the wild are not fat so the issue is not fat. Another thing is wild boar have lean meat compared to most but according to it's physical traits it's still not best to eat those things.


"It can also be spiritually dangerous to make strict laws out of dietary guidelines in the Bible."

I doubt my personal teaching on this to a congregation is spiritually dangerous unless I said "we need to eat holy food that makes us righteouss"
or "Someone bring down some lamb chops and let's lay them on this sick brother so we can heeeeeeaaaaalllll him!" LOL!

Also I can't make a law, God does that and he already did.

[LUKE2447]

Tape worms, hookworms and a long list of amoebae are far more common in the North American population than conventional medical experts have led the population to believe.... Parasites are found in highest concentrations in commercial pork products (bacon, ham, hot dogs, cold cuts, pork chops, etc).

This is a comment from Herbal Insights by Kroeger Herb Products

Also

"It is best to avoid pork altogether since tests show that pork parasites remain alive after the meat has been cooked to a char."

How well cooked are cold sliced hams? That is just a start!

[Michael Phelps]

I understand your points and I agree with some. It still does not change the natural factors in the genetics which is what laws based things on. Again that type of reasoning attempts to undermine and out think God's reasoning by modern technology when clearly his refence was to genetic traits. Catfish don't expel toxins just like pigs. Guess what not good for your body. Also do some research on the commercial industry it not as good as you think it is. Not sure of what areas of study you have done but parasitic aspect can go beyond the cooking of meat. Most don't eat extra well done. Also notice God didn't give a method for the cooking to justify the food. Also many pigs if in the wild are not fat so the issue is not fat. Another thing is wild boar have lean meat compared to most but according to it's physical traits it's still not best to eat those things.


"It can also be spiritually dangerous to make strict laws out of dietary guidelines in the Bible."

I doubt my personal teaching on this to a congregation is spiritually dangerous unless I said "we need to eat holy food that makes us righteouss"
or "Someone bring down some lamb chops and let's lay them on this sick brother so we can heeeeeeaaaaalllll him!" LOL!

Also I can't make a law, God does that and he already did.

No matter how well fed a pig is, they still eat anything in sight, and whatever they eat becomes flesh on their bones in 30 minutes.

I know what "farm raised" pigs eat, because we sell a lot of our waste to the farmers, along with other food plants that sell their waste.

[Rico]

I understand your points and I agree with some. It still does not change the natural factors in the genetics which is what laws based things on. Again that type of reasoning attempts to undermine and out think God's reasoning by modern technology when clearly his refence was to genetic traits. Catfish don't expel toxins just like pigs. Guess what not good for your body. Also do some research on the commercial industry it not as good as you think it is. Not sure of what areas of study you have done but parasitic aspect can go beyond the cooking of meat. Most don't eat extra well done. Also notice God didn't give a method for the cooking to justify the food. Also many pigs if in the wild are not fat so the issue is not fat. Another thing is wild boar have lean meat compared to most but according to it's physical traits it's still not best to eat those things.


"It can also be spiritually dangerous to make strict laws out of dietary guidelines in the Bible."

I doubt my personal teaching on this to a congregation is spiritually dangerous unless I said "we need to eat holy food that makes us righteouss"
or "Someone bring down some lamb chops and let's lay them on this sick brother so we can heeeeeeaaaaalllll him!" LOL!

Also I can't make a law, God does that and he already did.

Well, I am not going to get into a debate over the benefits, or lack thereof, of eating a well cooked loin chop. We don't eat a lot of pork, but we don't have a problem with it when we do eat it and make sure it's cooked well.

With regards to the dietary laws in the Bible, one can get on dangerous ground with making anything out of the Bible a law unto itself. After awhile, it stops being about God and starts being about following rules. That's how people become legalistic in their approach to living for God and lose sight of how and why they are saved. Again, using dietary "laws" found in the OT as guidelines for healthy eating is a good idea, but I don't think we need to follow them strictly and make a law out of observing them.

[Nahum]

Stupid thread.

[AbundantGrace]

Stupid thread.

Stupid Poster!

[Rico]

Stupid Poster!

AG, we can't make personal insults like this, Bro. It's against the rules. Attack the position, not the one making the post. :)

[AbundantGrace]

AG, we can't make personal insults like this, Bro. It's against the rules. Attack the position, not the one making the post. :)

Brother, there are many posters on here. How can you think that was personally directed at anyone specifically? :snapout

[Nahum]

Stupid Poster!

By this, do you mean the person who started this stupid thread?

Just asking.:ursofunny

[LUKE2447]

Why is it stupid? It points to inconsistancy of many denoms.
According to Dr. Mercola in his view one french fry is bad as one cigarette for your health. Not sure if he is right or wrong but to say that does not make you sit back and adjust your view to food I really don't know what will.

Let's send the smoker to hell but slice up ol porky over here and use every inch of it's body which God clearly pointed out as unclean and an adomination unto you.

[Rico]

Brother, there are many posters on here. How can you think that was personally directed at anyone specifically? :snapout

Ok. If it gets reported and you find yourself in banland for a few days, just remember Rico tried to get ya to change it. Carry on.

[Baron1710]

So based on your previous statement that smoking was a sin, one who continues to smoke is unsaved?

What about men like Spurgeon who lived before there was evidence that smoking could be harmful to your health was it a sin then, or is sin only in the knowledge that it can be harmful?

Bump for PP

[Rico]

Why is it stupid? It points to inconsistancy of many denoms.
According to Dr. Mercola in his view one french fry is bad as one cigarette for your health. Not sure if he is right or wrong but to say that does not make you sit back and adjust your view to food I really don't know what will.

Let's send the smoker to hell but slice up ol porky over here which God clearly pointed out as unclean and an adomination unto you.

What other parts of the OT law do you feel obligated to follow, L?

[Nahum]

Smoking is not the same as over-eating.

People have to eat, and struggle with portions and genetics.

Nobody has to smoke.

Smoking hurts the smoker, the people around him, and is a horrible example for all.

Addiction is chemical, biological and spiritual.

Any substance that is addicting, and controls your moods and actions is sinful.

[Baron1710]

Smoking is not the same as over-eating.

People have to eat, and struggle with portions and genetics.

Nobody has to smoke.

Smoking hurts the smoker, the people around him, and is a horrible example for all.

Addiction is chemical, biological and spiritual.

Any substance that is addicting, and controls your moods and actions is sinful.

Coffee?

[LUKE2447]

Seems like everything has to be a heaven or hell issue to do what God considers best. Then we ignore God's will for you in food and all you hear is "don't make a law out of it" Then send everyone else to hell for any other type of addiction. AT LEAST BE CONSISTENT!

[Michael Phelps]

Brother, there are many posters on here. How can you think that was personally directed at anyone specifically? :snapout

When you quote someone's post, and make a statement like this you could create the perception that you are referring to them.

Please refrain from any such statements in the future.

[Nahum]

Bump for PP


Baron, I'll leave that to God.

But I will not excuse sinful behavior - whether it's my sin or someone else's.

There seems to be an attempt to normalize that sinful behavior on this thread, which is regrettable.

Why not just say that smoking is a sin some folks struggle with, just like others struggle with gossip, lying, drinking, whoremongering and so on?

Why not try to help people find deliverance from a habit that has no benefit whatsoever?

Appealing to and appeasing fleshly lusts is contrary to Galatians 5.

[Brad Murphy]

Why is it stupid? It points to inconsistancy of many denoms.
According to Dr. Mercola in his view one french fry is bad as one cigarette for your health. Not sure if he is right or wrong but to say that does not make you sit back and adjust your view to food I really don't know what will.

Let's send the smoker to hell but slice up ol porky over here and use every inch of it's body which God clearly pointed out as unclean and an adomination unto you.

What are your thoughts on mixing different clothing materials together?