View Full Version : God, Is My Obededience Not Enough?: When HH Fails
God, Is My Obededience Not Enough?: When Holy Hair Fails (http://holymagichair.blogspot.com/2008/07/god-is-my-obededience-not-enough-when.html)
Posted by Daniel Alicea
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Posted @www.holymagichair.com (http://www.holymagichair.com)
The following is a excerpted from a June 2003 forum thread (GoodNewsCafe) in which, ForeverBlessed, shares her frustrations as a believer in trusting that "Holy Hair" could bring God's favor and protection in her life and not getting the expected results.
Surely, this is an unintended consequence. Yet, when doctrine is based in error it produces confusion, frustration and doubt.
The writer's views on uncut hair do not necessarily reflect the views of the contributors of the blog site or it's readers.
Source: GoodNewsCafe (http://www.goodnewscafe.net/showthread.php?t=672)
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I can no longer believe that I need to do anything or sacrifice anything to obtain grace, mercy or favor before my God. We are not saved by works, and neither can we obtain favor through works.
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
To feel that I can have any special power with God through keeping my hair uncut, I am taking away from the sacrifice that he made on Calvary.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
He is there for me, covering me with his grace and mercy because I am blood bought child of his. Anything I need, I find in him, but only through his sacrifice.
I refrained from cutting my hair for about three years. 1999-2002. I prayed every day asking God's protection on my family. I didn't like my hair, but felt I was making a sacrifice with my hair, and God would honor it.
Growing up, I never actually cut my hair until I had a bad perm, and I was an adult. As a teen, I would cut some wispy bangs, but my length was never touched, but it was only shoulder length. I will agree, that I just followed a UPCI rule.
Two of my sisters kept their hair trimmed. We were all used in ministries, but one sister refused to cut her hair, she had heard something preached by Lee Stoneking.
My brother/now pastor, admitted to me that he couldn't stand really long hair, and didn't have much of a problem that his sisters cut their hair. When he married a women who's father was ultra conservative, he changed his mind. Then he gets on the Ruth Reider band wagon.
When I moved to MI, I had it coming from all sides, people trying to make me understand that I wasn't supposed to trim my hair. I faced a lot of judgmental attitudes. Long hair, I could understand, no problem. Uncut hair, I didn't. I did want to fit in though. You would have to understand my personality. I would do about anything, if required, if it meant I was more acceptable in the UPCI ranks. Might not like it, but would do it. That is just me.
I had also met a friend that I admired and respected in MI. My hair being trimmed really bothered her. I agreed to study it. I asked my brother about it for guidance, he gave me a Ruth's first book. I read it.
Wow, you mean by keeping my hair uncut, I could have special power in prayer, and be a rear guard in protection for my family?
You notice how sometimes we are so willing to want to help things along by works, and not trust God. I swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. There wasn't much I wouldn't do to protect my family. They mean everything to me.
Ddc, you know some of my past history with my husband, I honestly asked God to keep him from the pull that the World had on him with drugs. I told God that I would sacrifice my hair, my own personal feelings or fleshly desires concerning my hair. I would not cut it. I asked God to honor it.
Just before Christmas of 2001, I found evidence of drug usage with my husband again. I really never confided in anyone, it took months before I even went to talk to my Bro/pastor about it. My hair was very long and was still uncut.
I cried, why didn't God honor my sacrifice? I hated my hair past my backside. I couldn't wear it down, it was too long. At least one foot of it was thin and straggly. I had to wear my hair up all the time, and it made me look older. I just didn't understand. When I asked my brother why??? Why could this happen when I had kept my end of the bargain so to speak?
He said God couldn't go against someone else's will and that is why my husband did what he did. Then he said I don't believe that theory concerning protecting through hair. I flat out asked him, well haven't you read her books? Come to find out, he hadn't, he promoted them, but hadn't read them. I still don't know if he has read them or not. He did admit to me another time later on, that I wasn't the only one who didn't agree with Ruth Reider, many other preachers didn't either.
I decided if I wasn't able to keep my family protected through prayer with my hair, then I don't have the desire to keep it uncut. Keep it long as my glory, yes, but not unkempt from not trimming.
Then I faced another obstacle. I wanted to trim my hair to a more manageable length, but now I was under FEAR.. You see, Ruth teaches in her book, of God removing the Glory from your life when you cut or trim your hair. I was then fearful of cutting my hair. I would cry... I was torn. I no longer believed what she taught, but now was held by fear. I was fearful, and we all know that fear is not of God. My husband was making comments about my hair never being worn down, he like it down. I told him I couldn't wear it down with scraggly uneven ends. He told me to trim them up a bit. I was fearful, but I did trim about two inches of very, very thin hair at the very ends. It wasn't even enough to notice, just cleaned it up some.
Three weeks later, my world,( so I thought at the time), really began to crumble around me. I had the house fire, and then a few weeks later, my husband left and basically deserted his family. What else bad could happen to me now? I found myself looking for the next blow. The enemy tormented me that I was the fault of everything that had happened. The torment and heaviness that weighed on my shoulders, as the devil tried to lay this blame on me. Even though I was aware of his drug usage some eight months earlier. After all the details began to be revealed to me after he left, did I realize, I am not the one responsible for what happened. He had been actively participating in everything long, long before I decided to trim a little from my hair.
The house fire turned out to be one of the biggest blessings. The night of the fire, finances were not so Good, my husband wasn't working good, pot really keeps him from being motivated. Our bills were all behind. Six hours after the fire, I was cut a check for $2,000 and told that that should keep me through the weekend and they would take care of everything Monday morning. I took that money and paid our bills up. To me that was just the first blessing from that fire. No one was hurt, I had everything replaced for new, no burn damage to my things. What was replaced was just from smoke and damage from firefighters. God had his hand of protection on my family that night. Surely Mercy and Grace did follow me, no one was hurt. My old house had so many code violations, that were all brought up to code and paid for by my insurance policy. I got a complete new interior remodeling upstairs, and that way the only part of the house we hadn't started on in our remodeling. I don't look at the fire being destruction being brought upon me.
Bro. Jim Yohe helped me understand during this time that God is my Father, and even if trimming my hair was going against him, the punishment just didn't fit the crime. Would my natural Father who loved me, ever bring upon me hurt and pain for something so trivial? Why then would my Heavenly Father, who loves me that much more, allow that to happen to me. Bad things just happen to good people.
I have done a lot of studying about the hair, I have prayed and even fasted. I had been tormented so, that I fasted two days for the purpose only of hair. I was studying one night, and began to cry when the following scripture popped out to me. I felt such a peace as tears continued to flow down my cheeks.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
I am one that has suffered much from condemnation placed on me by other people. I serve God with all honesty of heart, and I don't condemn other's. Why do they feel the need to condemn me or my life?
As a women, I embrace the femininity that God gave me. I love long hair, I just like to trim it and keep it looking nice.
Trim:
v. trimmed, trim·ming, trims
To make neat or tidy by clipping, smoothing, or pruning:
After researching it, I just don't see the scripture as saying long equals uncut. If God gave me beautiful hair as my glory, I want to keep it nice.
God has dealt with me concerning being in subjection to my pastor, and his teachings. God is working on me, and I am doing better, but submitting to his beliefs is the only reason, because I do not believe it for myself.
Nahum
07-09-2008, 10:17 AM
I'm sorry this happened, but I still believe a woman's hair should be uncut.
It's a shame that FB was misled like this.
mizpeh
07-09-2008, 10:34 AM
Submission to a pastor is the ONLY reason I would not cut my hair and I submit to my pastor so that I will be in submission to God.
Like FB, I agree that uncut scraggly hair is not a glory, long hair is a glory but not uncut hair.
Thanks for the testimony, FB.
MissBrattified
07-09-2008, 10:37 AM
I hope I can say this without seeming callous. (doubtful...LOL)
Anecdotes and stories cannot disprove a doctrine anymore than they can effectively support it. Too many stories, and it becomes sensationalism, unless carefully edited.
Do we stop believing in healing when God doesn't heal someone? Do we believe that people are only allowed to remain ill when THEY don't have enough faith? Sticking to scripture is what will show this doctrine up for what it is--utter folly.
I feel that in our discussions the last few days, there have been some lines blurred between people who believe in uncut hair, and people who believe in magic hair.
What FB's story does present in sad fashion is the discouragement that can befall a believer who has been led to trust in some extra-curricular work, rather than trusting in God. The Magic Hair doctrine is, potentially, a HUGE stumbling block and disappointment to many women, as is perfectly illustrated here.
I keep trying to express what I find troubling about this doctrine, and I have yet to do it in a way that satisfies me.
mizpeh
07-09-2008, 10:46 AM
That's why this teaching, magic hair, is so dangerous, it leads people to believe they have protection by not cutting their hair and if you cut your hair you will be punished.
All of us go through fiery trials of our faith no matter how perfect we are in our walk with God but our trust must be in God not our hair. If you believe in uncut hair, that's fine, but if you believe not cutting your hair will procure a hedge about you and bad things will not come your way because of it, then you've been duped.
MissBrattified
07-09-2008, 10:50 AM
"I feel that in our discussions the last few days, there have been some lines blurred between people who believe in uncut hair, and people who believe in magic hair."
Okay, I'm quoting myself...:D
One way the Magic Hair Doctrine is "dangerous" is in the way it undermines those who have a conviction based on what they read in scripture regarding hair, and associates them whether they like it or not with fanciful false doctrine.
Nahum
07-09-2008, 10:50 AM
TFT
"The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing."
This doctrine takes focus away from the main thing.
MissBrattified
07-09-2008, 10:51 AM
That's why this teaching, magic hair, is so dangerous, it leads people to believe they have protection by not cutting their hair and if you cut your hair you will be punished.
All of us go through fiery trials of our faith no matter how perfect we are in our walk with God but our trust must be in God not our hair. If you believe in uncut hair, that's fine, but if you believe not cutting your hair will procure a hedge about you and bad things will not come your way because of it, then you've been duped.
One thing I don't understand, either, is why if a woman takes even 1/4" off her hair, she is in danger of hell fire, but if a man lets his hair grow 1/4" too long (past the pastor's set rule), he just didn't get to the barber in time--but I doubt anyone will put him in hell over it!
*sigh*
Nahum
07-09-2008, 10:52 AM
See, this is where you guys will lose valuable contributors in the fight against this doctrine.
If you continue to come against the uncut interpretation of scripture, I'm out.
MissBrattified
07-09-2008, 10:55 AM
See, this is where you guys will lose valuable contributors in the fight against this doctrine.
If you continue to come against the uncut interpretation of scripture, I'm out.
Right.
The MHH site will lose some very good input if it stops focusing on a thoroughly extra-biblical doctrine, and begins to include a legitimate interpretation of scripture, in regard to personal convictions.
For that matter, this is probably why more influential ministers haven't spoken up, for fear of having one objection confused for another.
Nahum
07-09-2008, 10:56 AM
Yeppers.
I hope I can say this without seeming callous. (doubtful...LOL)
Anecdotes and stories cannot disprove a doctrine anymore than they can effectively support it. Too many stories, and it becomes sensationalism, unless carefully edited.
Do we stop believing in healing when God doesn't heal someone? Do we believe that people are only allowed to remain ill when THEY don't have enough faith? Sticking to scripture is what will show this doctrine up for what it is--utter folly.
I feel that in our discussions the last few days, there have been some lines blurred between people who believe in uncut hair, and people who believe in magic hair.
What FB's story does present in sad fashion is the discouragement that can befall a believer who has been led to trust in some extra-curricular work, rather than trusting in God. The Magic Hair doctrine is, potentially, a HUGE stumbling block and disappointment to many women, as is perfectly illustrated here.
I keep trying to express what I find troubling about this doctrine, and I have yet to do it in a way that satisfies me.
Miss B said:
Sticking to scripture is what will show this doctrine up for what it is--utter folly.I agree that this must be refuted by the theologians. It will be their ability to do so that will lend credence to or invalidate this doctrine.
I know PO has advocated that approach and that approach alone.
Here's the dilemma however,
Most that eat this type of doctrine up ... are not concerned about the nuances and theological sticking points, Miss B. Rather the extra promises and the validation it brings in living a "sacrificial" and "separation" through this one act of obedience.
Speaking to a young lady last night ... who bought into this at around 17-18 years old ... this was what appealed to her ... she did not have the theological wherewithal to clearly understand what she was learning at conferences taught by RR in her home district in New Mexico.
She was the only one in church in her family .... she was struggling to keep the faith ... and something like this ... made her feel she walked w/ angels.
Her and FB's story tell what happens when we take a doctrine and try to sell it to those that are in a gullible state ....
RR in her book does promise extra protection afforded by a woman's glory... which of course ... you know ... but not many of our readers.
..... on page 68, the author claims that since the “armor of God” (presumably from Ephesians 6:11, although not stated) does not include protection for the back, God has provided such protection in a woman’s hair, based on Isaiah 58:8 (“…the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.”). If this were true, then what about a man’s back? Did God leave men vulnerable to attack from behind, but made women more secure? Of course not. Then she ties this idea to Titus 2:5 (“To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.”) to make the point that women are “to be a guard that will beware of any evil that would try to come into your homes” (p. 69), followed by the statement, “Your uncut hair brings protection to your entire family” (p. 69).
In order to prove her point, the author relates a story involving a young married couple who were Bible school students. Apparently, the husband committed adultery, and “their lives were shattered, and their ministry was completely ruined.” This is alleged to have occurred as a result of the wife’s prior indiscretion of cutting her hair: “the spirit of vanity had caused her to become more concerned about the appearance of her split ends than about her obedience to God” (p. 69).
This is irresponsible, manipulative and misleading. It is one of several anecdotes which the author uses to give credence to her fallacious claims, which amount to nothing more than superstition, making female hair a sort of magic talisman to keep at bay the lurking evil spirits which would otherwise invade and take over the home and family, and against which men are otherwise powerless. But wait, there’s more:
“Can our husband’s hearts safely trust in us to guard the glory and to insure divine protection for our family so that no wicked spirit can enter in to spoil us?” (p. 70)
“Can the Lord depend on you to guard the glory faithfully and diligently?” (p. 70)
“Husbands are put there as a safeguard for the woman as she carries out this wondrously important duty that God has entrusted to her hands…guarding the glory and insuring divine protection for your family.” (p. 72, 73)There is something to be said about what this teaching means in it's practical application, also. We find women who will, unfortunately, focus one area of their lives and may not realize the bigger picture of God's sovereignty, His Word and His promises.
For this reason stories like these I believe have some weight in this discussion. As corroborating evidence, so to speak of the dangers it poses to the faith community.
ReformedDave
07-09-2008, 10:56 AM
Submission to a pastor is the ONLY reason I would not cut my hair and I submit to my pastor so that I will be in submission to God.
Paul stated that his disciples were to follow him as he followed Christ. Should we follow someone who teaches something we don't feel is scriptural?
Timmy
07-09-2008, 10:58 AM
Re: submission to pastors.
Are pastors shaking in their boots? They should be! Look at the people who submit to a pastor, who trust him to preach the truth, depend on him for their watching over their souls. Will their blood be on his hands, if he doesn't lead them into the truth?
If a pastor misleads a congregation, say messes up the salvation doctrine in some important detail, will the whole congregation end up in hell? Or will they be shown mercy, since it wasn't their fault? Maybe the pastor will take all the punishment?
No matter how confidently and loudly a pastor may say he knows the real truth, he can't possibly be certain. Look at all the Trinny pastors! Many of them probably are just as sure of their own beliefs as OP pastors are. How am I, a mere layman, supposed to pick which pastor to follow?
If you ask me, when it comes to theology, the level of certainty is inversely proportional to the chances of getting it right!
MissBrattified
07-09-2008, 11:02 AM
Miss B said:
I agree that this must be refuted by the theologians. It will be their ability to do so that will lend credence or invalidate this doctrine.
I know PO has advocated that approach and that approach alone.
Here's the dilemma however,
Most that eat this type of doctrine up ... are not concerned about the nuances and theological sticking points, Miss B. Rather the extra promises and the validation it brings in living a "sacrificial" and "separation" through this one act of obedience.
That's true; I understand you fight fire with fire.
Speaking to a young lady last night ... who bought into this at around 17-18 years old ... this was what appealed to her ... she did not have the theological wherewithal to clearly understand what she was learning at conferences taught by RR in her home district in New Mexico.
She was the only one in church in her family .... she was struggling to keep the faith ... and something like this ... make her feel she walked w/ angels.
Her and FB's story tell what happens when we take a doctrine and try to sell it to those that are in a gullible state ....
RR in her book does promise extra protection afforded by a woman's glory... which of course ... you know ... but not many of our readers.
To be very callous indeed, RR's own assertions failed her in the end, at least if we are to assume the example in her book regarding the broken marriage holds true for everyone.
There is something to be said about what teaching this means in it's practical application, also. We find women who will, unfortunately, focus one area of their lives and may not realize the bigger picture of God's sovereignty.
For this reason stories like these I believe have some weight in this discussion. As corroborating evidence, so to speak of the dangers it poses to the faith community.
It definitely does speak of dangers, and I didn't intend to minimize FB's experience.
Stories are good, as long as they are balanced with sound, scriptural refutation.
Nahum
07-09-2008, 11:03 AM
Pastors are responsible for what they teach, not for individual souls.
A person's salvation is founded in proper response to the Word, leading to a right relationship with God.
No pastor will stand with you on judgement day. You will stand before God ALONE.
Bro-Larry
07-09-2008, 11:08 AM
Bro Larry has been preaching over and over on this Forum, that God does not punish His children, with sickness, disease, disasters, kill, steal or destroy.
Those are the works of the devil, who always tries to get Christians to blame it on God.
We are saved by believing in the finished work of Jesus. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, not by the will of man, not by works lest any man should boast. There's a lot of boasting here about how I've lived right and done this and that to try to please God. God should be so happy to have me living for Him.
He doesn't want any of our works, He wants us to trust and believe that Jesus did it all, and He doesn't need our help. If we could have done it ourselves, we wouldn't have needed Jesus.
mizpeh
07-09-2008, 11:12 AM
Paul stated that his disciples were to follow him as he followed Christ. Should we follow someone who teaches something we don't feel is scriptural?
The reason I said what I did is I'm willing to let a minor point (like not cutting my hair go) even though I don't believe the Bible teaches that a woman can't cut their hair IF I feel God wants me in a certain congregation. In some places in this country there are many many miles between apostolic churches. Going to an Apostolic church which may have outward holiness standards is more acceptable to me than going to a church that doesn't teach full salvation.
ReformedDave
07-09-2008, 11:17 AM
The reason I said what I did is I'm willing to let a minor point (like not cutting my hair go) even though I don't believe the Bible teaches that a woman can't cut their hair IF I feel God wants me in a certain congregation. In some places in this country there are many many miles between apostolic churches. Going to an Apostolic church which may have outward holiness standards is more acceptable to me than going to a church that doesn't teach full salvation.
It all depends how 'minor' something is. If it is a standard that puts us in right standing with God then that's not a minor issue. I'm not judging you or your pastor. Just making an observation and asking a general question.
dizzyde
07-09-2008, 11:24 AM
The reason I said what I did is I'm willing to let a minor point (like not cutting my hair go) even though I don't believe the Bible teaches that a woman can't cut their hair IF I feel God wants me in a certain congregation. In some places in this country there are many many miles between apostolic churches. Going to an Apostolic church which may have outward holiness standards is more acceptable to me than going to a church that doesn't teach full salvation.
:thumbsup
mizpeh
07-09-2008, 11:25 AM
It all depends how 'minor' something is. If it is a standard that puts us in right standing with God then that's not a minor issue. I'm not judging you or your pastor. Just making an observation and asking a general question.I agree, a standard that puts us in a right standing with God is not minor.
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 11:27 AM
I agree that this must be refuted by the theologians. It will be their ability to do so that will lend credence to or invalidate this doctrine.
I know PO has advocated that approach and that approach alone.
Daniel,
What other approach do you suggest?
I was in a church situation that was tough, tough, tough to want to submit to leadership. Sometimes I wished I would get a disease and just die, it was that bad! I cried and told God, "Why don't you just kill me! I'm not doing well with this!!!" He said, "You haven't acted like Miriam."
Do you get that point? Even when we don't agree we can't act like Miraim! We can't sow discord. These threads are giving off that impression. Who wants leprosy, so to speak. I'd rather trust in God.
The scripture is still speaking of authority, headship and - yes - hair. Who is prepared to think it's not important. I'm not. I can't.
Here's the dilemma however,
Most that eat this type of doctrine up ... are not concerned about the nuances and theological sticking points, Miss B. Rather the extra promises and the validation it brings in living a "sacrificial" and "separation" through this one act of obedience.
Speaking to a young lady last night ... who bought into this at around 17-18 years old ... this was what appealed to her ... she did not have the theological wherewithal to clearly understand what she was learning at conferences taught by RR in her home district in New Mexico.
She was the only one in church in her family .... she was struggling to keep the faith ... and something like this ... made her feel she walked w/ angels.
Her and FB's story tell what happens when we take a doctrine and try to sell it to those that are in a gullible state ....
Daniel,
I understand what you are trying to convey, BUT really, from my point of view - I have been there with the importance of my hair and have been proud of my long hair - God taught me on a personal level when I was alone with him.
I've posted about laying my hair on the bed and crying, "God, why won't you do something, I haven't cut my hair!!". In that moment I knew that HE ALONE was more important. It was my faith in HIM that would see me through. I still had to have an obedient spirit and I still had to humble myself.
When I was fixing my hair to attend a ladies meeting I was admiring it in the mirror knowing that the other ladies would think it looked pretty too! lol God spoke to me, "Pride goeth before destruction....."
Did we, somehow, forget that His Spirit leads us and guides us into ALL truth? Did we forget He leads us as individuals? Do you know how many ladies in my acquaintance that believe in "magic hair" - nada!
My husband has been in the UPC for 35 years and said he has never once heard of the "magic hair". We talked about this last night. I've heard and been taught that we have power with the angels because of our submission, which was associated with me not cutting my hair. I've never believed that, possibly because I wasn't raised in the UPC. Mainly, because I saw it doesn't make someone submissive. It's a matter of the heart.
Nonetheless, the scripture is dealing with hair - also.
RR in her book does promise extra protection afforded by a woman's glory... which of course ... you know ... but not many of our readers.
There is something to be said about what this teaching means in it's practical application, also. We find women who will, unfortunately, focus one area of their lives and may not realize the bigger picture of God's sovereignty, His Word and His promises.
For this reason stories like these I believe have some weight in this discussion. As corroborating evidence, so to speak of the dangers it poses to the faith community.
I don't believe your bold statement, above, one bit. I've been in churches with trouble galore, but a core membership knew where to place their trust. They knew how to get a hold of God. They knew the importance of being faithful to Him and above all - Didn't forget where He brought them from!
That is so much more important to so many of us than this hair doctrine that is being bandied around here, Daniel. We don't focus on that at our church. My goodness!! lol
What do you want us to do, Daniel? What course of action do you think is best?
See, this is where you guys will lose valuable contributors in the fight against this doctrine.
If you continue to come against the uncut interpretation of scripture, I'm out.
We have added a disclaimer ....
The writer's views on uncut hair do not necessarily reflect the views of the contributors of the blog site or it's readers.
In the purpose of our blog we've stated that believers on both sides of the issue are speaking out against it.
Lastly, studies on the cut vs. uncut are provided to the readership
We also encourage all on both sides to contribute
Furthermore, FB's testimony should provide a wake up call ... to those who support uncut hair but are against HMH with an additional reason for being against it .... it can disillusion someone so much that they will then "totally" walk away from separation as taught by some.
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 11:30 AM
Pastors are responsible for what they teach, not for individual souls.
A person's salvation is founded in proper response to the Word, leading to a right relationship with God.
No pastor will stand with you on judgement day. You will stand before God ALONE.
This is my point, as well, PP! God leads us individually!
This is my point, as well, PP! God leads us individually!
This is not being taught by pastors many times ... but evangelists ... which brings an entirely different discussion for another ... the role of the evangelist in the Church.
PP has also stated the "dragons" he's had to fight as a pastor w/ his own saints in bringing them to district events ... distancing his church from what is perceived as cultish ..... etc, etc.
Of course salvation is personal ...
But what role does a pastor play in the life of babes and the spiritually immature ... none?
Daniel,
What other approach do you suggest?
I was in a church situation that was tough, tough, tough to want to submit to leadership. Sometimes I wished I would get a disease and just die, it was that bad! I cried and told God, "Why don't you just kill me! I'm not doing well with this!!!" He said, "You haven't acted like Miriam."
Do you get that point? Even when we don't agree we can't act like Miraim! We can't sow discord. These threads are giving off that impression. Who wants leprosy, so to speak. I'd rather trust in God.
The scripture is still speaking of authority, headship and - yes - hair. Who is prepared to think it's not important. I'm not. I can't.
Daniel,
I understand what you are trying to convey, BUT really, from my point of view - I have been there with the importance of my hair and have been proud of my long hair - God taught me on a personal level when I was alone with him.
I've posted about laying my hair on the bed and crying, "God, why won't you do something, I haven't cut my hair!!". In that moment I knew that HE ALONE was more important. It was my faith in HIM that would see me through. I still had to have an obedient spirit and I still had to humble myself.
When I was fixing my hair to attend a ladies meeting I was admiring it in the mirror knowing that the other ladies would think it looked pretty too! lol God spoke to me, "Pride goeth before destruction....."
Did we, somehow, forget that His Spirit leads us and guides us into ALL truth? Did we forget He leads us as individuals? Do you know how many ladies in my acquaintance that believe in "magic hair" - nada!
My husband has been in the UPC for 35 years and said he has never once heard of the "magic hair". We talked about this last night. I've heard and been taught that we have power with the angels because of our submission, which was associated with me not cutting my hair. I've never believed that, possibly because I wasn't raised in the UPC. Mainly, because I saw it doesn't make someone submissive. It's a matter of the heart.
Nonetheless, the scripture is dealing with hair - also.
I don't believe your bold statement, above, one bit. I've been in churches with trouble galore, but a core membership knew where to place their trust. They knew how to get a hold of God. They knew the importance of being faithful to Him and above all - Didn't forget where He brought them from!
That is so much more important to so many of us than this hair doctrine that is being bandied around here, Daniel. We don't focus on that at our church. My goodness!! lol
What do you want us to do, Daniel? What course of action do you think is best?
Hmmm!
Some pertinent questions indeed.
I wonder if he feels the same about Charismatics and some of thier flaky doctrines?
I despise some of these doctrines of Charismatics, but you won't see me post threads over, and over, and over again!
Daniel, do you have a job?
I am on WCB so I have the time, nevertheless, I won't waste my time beating to death some of these issues.
Hmmm!
Some pertinent questions indeed.
I wonder if he feels the same about Charismatics and some of thier flaky doctrines?
I despise some of these doctrines of Charismatics, but you won't see me post threads over, and over, and over again!
Daniel, do you have a job?
I am on WCB so I have the time, nevertheless, I won't waste my time beating to death some of these issues.
I do ... thank God. On summer vacation ... glad you have the time to weigh in.
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 11:39 AM
This is not being taught by pastors many times ... but evangelists ... which brings an entirely different discussion for another ... the role of the evangelist in the Church.
PP has also stated the "dragons" he's had to fight as a pastor w/ his own saints in bringing them to district events ... etc, etc.
I'm sure there are many "opinions" brought over the pulpit and not just by evangelists.
Bill Cole once said, I think it was, 85% of what a man says over the pulpit is his opinion, the other 15% is God. lol I'm pretty sure I can agree with that.
I know how hard it is to stand there and hold your peace or would that be piece (lol) and stay focused. I had to learn that when working with the youth. How hard is it to do that 3 times a week, all year long? Gotta be rough! lol
I do ... thank God. On summer vacation ... glad you have the time to weigh in.
Summer vacation? That is nice.
When is your upcoming wedding?
I weigh in at about 220, a little high if you ask me.
I am sorry I have not much else to add except that I don't believe it & don't agree with it, along with divine flesh.
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 11:42 AM
Hmmm!
Some pertinent questions indeed.
I wonder if he feels the same about Charismatics and some of thier flaky doctrines?
I despise some of these doctrines of Charismatics, but you won't see me post threads over, and over, and over again!
Daniel, do you have a job?
I am on WCB so I have the time, nevertheless, I won't waste my time beating to death some of these issues.
Wasn't I on a Sabbatical? lol
I'm listening to Gordon Poe acting like a nut at http://www.apostoliclive.com/play.php?vid=385 and clicked over here for a minute.
Four years of habit is hard to break! :snapout
I'm sure there are many "opinions" brought over the pulpit and not just by evangelists.
Bill Cole once said, I think it was, 85% of what a man says over the pulpit is his opinion, the other 15% is God. lol I'm pretty sure I can agree with that.
I know how hard it is to stand there and hold your peace or would that be piece (lol) and stay focused. I had to learn that when working with the youth. How hard is it to do that 3 times a week, all year long? Gotta be rough! lol
Interesting, I am not sure about the stats but a man's opinion can't help but get factored into the equation somewhere.
You worked with the youth?
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 11:44 AM
Of course salvation is personal ...
But what role does a pastor play in the life of babes and the spiritually immature ... none?
The Word says you can't be saved without a preacher - which includes the 5-fold ministry, IMO. Having said that we build on our most holy faith on our knees - alone. My thoughts.
Wasn't I on a Sabbatical? lol
I'm listening to Gordon Poe acting like a nut at http://www.apostoliclive.com/play.php?vid=385 and clicked over here for a minute.
Forty years of habit is hard to break! :snapout
That long?:ursofunny
Summer vacation? That is nice.
When is your upcoming wedding?
I weigh in at about 220, a little high if you ask me.
I am sorry I have not much else to add except that I don't believe it & don't agree with it, along with divine flesh.
Don't report back to work until 3rd week of August .... one of the perks of teaching.
We are to be married the weekend of December 13th .... GLAWRRYYYY!!!!!
220 .... How tall are you? I was at 210 a few years ago ... now down to 175-178 .... looking to get to 160.
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 11:45 AM
Interesting, I am not sure about the stats but a man's opinion can't help but get factored into the equation somewhere.
You worked with the youth?
Yes! I had a boy that would come in and slap me on the back every Sunday morning. I wanted to kick him! LOL!
Cindy
07-09-2008, 11:46 AM
Don't report back to work until 3rd week of August .... one of the perks of teaching.
We are to be married the weekend of December 13th .... GLAWRRYYYY!!!!!
220 .... How tall are you? I was at 210 a few years ago ... now down to 175-178 .... looking to get to 160.
I like your new avatar pic Daniel.
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 11:46 AM
That long?:ursofunny
Did you change that or am I typing too fast again? lol
I like your new avatar pic Daniel.
Thanx Cindy .... we had a great time in Arkansas and Mississippi a few weeks ago.
Dying to see her again.
Don't report back to work until 3rd week of August .... one of the perks of teaching.
We are to be married the weekend of December 13th .... GLAWRRYYYY!!!!!
220 .... How tall are you? I was at 210 a few years ago ... now down to 175-178 .... looking to get to 160.
What do you teach?
BTW I am not surprised that you are a teacher, agree or not you articulate your thoughts well.
I am 6'0 & on my wedding day 13 odd years ago, I weighed 136 lbs!!!
I want and need to be 180-190.
Yes! I had a boy that would come in and slap me on the back every Sunday morning. I wanted to kick him! LOL!
Oh brother, I know those children well!:club
I like your new avatar pic Daniel.
Me too, I want to try a seado!
They look fun!
Did you change that or am I typing too fast again? lol
:whistle
What do you teach?
BTW I am not surprised that you are a teacher, agree or not you articulate your thoughts well.
I am 6'0 & on my wedding day 13 odd years ago, I weighed 136 lbs!!!
I want and need to be 180-190.
Now heading into my 12th year of teaching ... middle school
I taught general education Social Studies and English Language Arts ... for 9 years in New York City ...
I am now a Special Education ELA Resouce Room teacher ... here in Houston.
I need to be at least 165-168 by my wedding date!!!!
Me too, I want to try a seado!
They look fun!
The jetski ... was a RUSH!! It was my first time. Cass is a pro.
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 11:52 AM
Oh brother, I know those children well!:club
Yep! His sister was horrible too! We loved them though.
I actually didn't learn patience with the youth until my daughter was a horrible youth herself! lol She is so faithful today! We made it through, but I will never look at another youth without realizing what I went through. That will give you patience, for sure!
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 11:52 AM
:whistle
I went back and checked!
:thwak
If feels like forty years though! :killinme
The jetski ... was a RUSH!! It was my first time. Cass is a pro.
Was it on a lake?
I see them of our local beaches & it looks like extreme fun!
Yep! His sister was horrible too! We loved them though.
I actually didn't learn patience with the youth until my daughter was a horrible youth herself! lol She is so faithful today! We made it through, but I will never look at another youth without realizing what I went through. That will give you patience, for sure!
My turn is coming!:aaa
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 11:55 AM
Daniel,
Not to be rude, but I'm not interested in your "woman" today.
You didn't answer some of my questions and I'm waiting. I have a painting project going on and can't hang around all day. :foottap
:D
I went back and checked!
:thwak
If feels like forty years though! :killinme
Put on your glasses, huh?:D
Was it on a lake?
I see them of our local beaches & it looks like extreme fun!
Yes it was ... it sits right behind DeltaGuitar's parents' home .... near their 2400 acre farm.
That's living to me ....
I hope one day to own waterfront property.
I understand jet skiing is more challenging and fun at the beach because of the waves.
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 11:57 AM
My turn is coming!:aaa
All I can say is "hang on to your britches!" :killinme Your comeuppance is coming!
I was surprised that my daughter acted like me when I was a heathen. I thought when I got delivered that wouldn't be a part of my life again. I'm still confused about that. :killinme
Daniel,
Not to be rude, but I'm not interested in your "woman" today.
You didn't answer some of my questions and I'm waiting. I have a painting project going on and can't hang around all day. :foottap
:D
PSST, by painting she means painting with oil based paints & varnishes without a mask.
If she is in a hurry, it is because she needs a fix!:crazy
What do you want us to do, Daniel? What course of action do you think is best?
I don't know??? .... *shrug* ... that's for y'all to decide.
All I can say is "hang on to your britches!" :killinme Your comeuppance is coming!
I was surprised that my daughter acted like me when I was a heathen. I thought when I got delivered that wouldn't be a part of my life again. I'm still confused about that. :killinme
Musta been a gene that skipped a generation, huh?:hmmm
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 11:58 AM
Put on your glasses, huh?:D
I forgot cneasttx's polite word for - Shut up! :killinme
Baron1710
07-09-2008, 11:58 AM
Yes it was ... it sits right behind DeltaGuitar's parents' home .... near their 2400 acre farm.
That's living to me ....
I hope one day to own waterfront property.
I understand it's more challenging and fun at the beach because of the waves.
Then get a job where you don't have 3 months off every year. LOL
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 11:59 AM
Musta been a gene that skipped a generation, huh?:hmmm
My father was a twin!!! My daughter and her husband are planning on starting a family pretty soon! Doesn't it skip a generation?
I don't know??? .... *shrug* ... that's for y'all to decide.
On another vein Daniel, is it possible that we will always have doctrines being preached that are not biblicaly based?
There was a neat bible study posted on another forum that was titled, "There must be heresies."
The gist of it is this, it is prophecy being fulfilled.
Then get a job where you don't have 3 months off every year. LOL
I haven not worked summer school here in Houston for various personal reasons... used to in NY. Pays good and you usually work 4 hours .. from 8-12.
I will definitely do so next year.
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:01 PM
I don't know??? .... *shrug* ... that's for y'all to decide.
Oh, well if you don't know than why are you badgering us?
:D
Yes it was ... it sits right behind DeltaGuitar's parents' home .... near their 2400 acre farm.
That's living to me ....
I hope one day to own waterfront property.
I understand jet skiing is more challenging and fun at the beach because of the waves.
If you could, it would be a blessing.
I love the water.
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:02 PM
On another vein Daniel, is it possible that we will always have doctrines being preached that are not biblicaly based?
There was a neat bible study posted on another forum that was titled, "There must be heresies."
The gist of it is this, it is prophecy being fulfilled.
Interesting.
Oh, well if you don't know than why are you badgering us?
:D
Cause I can???
:friend
My father was a twin!!! My daughter and her husband are planning on starting a family pretty soon! Doesn't it skip a generation?
Yup, double blessing granny!:tease
I forgot cneasttx's polite word for - Shut up! :killinme
Hush Yo Mouth?:ursofunny
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:03 PM
PSST, by painting she means painting with oil based paints & varnishes without a mask.
If she is in a hurry, it is because she needs a fix!:crazy
I feel so lightheaded! :woot
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:04 PM
Cause I can???
:friend
:killinme
Well, I'll just pray for Cass. That's all I'm saying. :killinme
I feel so lightheaded! :woot
That is the Blond roots!:ursofunny
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:04 PM
Hush Yo Mouth?:ursofunny
No, I think you just need to shut up. :killinme
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:06 PM
That is the Blond roots!:ursofunny
:killinme
My hair isn't that blonde anymore. In the summer it gets lighter and has highlights. One of my sisters said, "Are you dying your hair again?" :killinme
Haven't done that in over 20 years. What a pain!
No, I think you just need to shut up. :killinme
That works!:ursofunny
:killinme
Well, I'll just pray for Cass. That's all I'm saying. :killinme
Tell you what ... she keeps me centered and grounded .... If anyone can tame this wild colt ... it's her.
:killinme
My hair isn't that blonde anymore. In the summer it gets lighter and has highlights. One of my sisters said, "Are you dying your hair again?" :killinme
Haven't done that in over 20 years. What a pain!
Poor dear, that is gray!:tease
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:07 PM
Tell you what ... she keeps me centered and grounded .... If anyone can tame this wild colt ... it's her.
I doubt that Daniel. You dominate this Board like you are one of the Owners. Do you presently own stock in AFF? :killinme
Tell you what ... she keeps me centered and grounded .... If anyone can tame this wild colt ... it's her.
I am happy for ya!
I doubt that Daniel. You dominate this Board like you are one of the Owners. Do you presently own stock in AFF? :killinme
Shhhh .... Renda doesn't want anyone to know .... :bigbaby
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:10 PM
Poor dear, that is gray!:tease
I'm starting to get some grey hair! I was sitting in my pew at church and my husband was standing above me. He leaned over and said, "I see some grey hair!"
:tissue
His is totally white, so whatever!!!! :killinme
:tissue
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:10 PM
Shhhh .... Renda doesn't want anyone to know .... :bigbaby
Like nobody could tell - PULEEZE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:killinme
I'm starting to get some grey hair! I was sitting in my pew at church and my husband was standing above me. He leaned over and said, "I see some grey hair!"
:tissue
His is totally white, so whatever!!!! :killinme
:tissue
I always thought he was Caucasian?:crazy
Pastor Keith
07-09-2008, 12:11 PM
Gal. 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
A good example why we need to put faith in God not in our commitment to God.
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:12 PM
Okay we have a full blown first post and no solution. :search
Back to work!
Have fun with it.
Gal. 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
A good example why we need to put faith in God not in our commitment to God.
Ding ... ding ... ding ... WE HAVE OURSELVES A WINNER!!!!
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:13 PM
I always thought he was Caucasian?:crazy
:snapout
Stop confusing me!!! :killinme
Gal. 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
A good example why we need to put faith in God not in our commitment to God.
So Keith, we don't need commitment to God?:hmmm
:snapout
Stop confusing me!!! :killinme
That is going to be hard!!!!!! Cuz it is so easy to do!!:ursofunny
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:15 PM
Gal. 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
A good example why we need to put faith in God not in our commitment to God.
I would think that some of our commitment to God would be tied up in our faith - not discounting that faith comes first.
So Keith, we don't need commitment to God?:hmmm
He never said that ....
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:16 PM
That is going to be hard!!!!!! Cuz it is so easy to do!!:ursofunny
I'm going to go sniff some paint stripper!
:killinme
I'm going to go sniff some paint stripper!
:killinme
This explains much ....
Gal. 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
A good example why we need to put faith in God not in our commitment to God.
He never said that ....
I thought are commitment to God is a direct result of faith in God.
They are inseparable.
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:18 PM
This explains much ....
So what's your excuse? :D
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:19 PM
I thought are commitment to God is a direct result of faith in God.
They are inseparable.
I agree and not, as I said, discounting that faith comes first.
I'm going to go sniff some paint stripper!
:killinme
Going or still?:ursofunny
So what's your excuse? :D
Diet Coke.
I agree and not, as I said, discounting that faith comes first.
That goes without saying, how can you commit to something you don't believe in?
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:20 PM
Going or still?:ursofunny
I do really need to go. I'll apply this other technique and check back. That way I won't feel guilty. I have to deliver this chair tomorrow!
Later!
What a powerful statement by Paul ....
for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.
Diet Coke.
...and mentos?:whistle
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:21 PM
Diet Coke.
Lord! Is it caffeine free? If you say no, I won't believe you! :killinme
What a powerful statement by Paul ....
for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.
Amen!
There are works of the law & works of faith.
Lord! Is it caffeine free? If you say no, I won't believe you! :killinme
PSST, she doesn't believe most of us!
Baron1710
07-09-2008, 12:24 PM
I can have faith in God and not have faith in my commitment to God. My commitment to God is based on what I can do, my faith in Him is what He will do.
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:24 PM
Amen!
There are works of the law & works of faith.
Amen, I agree! Our commitments are works of faith.
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:25 PM
I can have faith in God and not have faith in my commitment to God. My commitment to God is based on what I can do, my faith in Him is what He will do.
Right, without faith it is impossible to please Him.
I can have faith in God and not have faith in my commitment to God. My commitment to God is based on what I can do, my faith in Him is what He will do.
I can and do have faith in God, I also can & do have faith in my commitment to God through the Grace he gives to empower me to live the way he wants too.
Amen!
There are works of the law & works of faith.
and there are works of righteousness ... which I believe Paul focused on too. (Which would include works of faith, I believe)
Titus 3:5 ....
Not (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3756.htm) by (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1537.htm) works (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/2041.htm) of (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1722.htm) righteousness (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1343.htm) which (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3739.htm) we (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/2249.htm) have done (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4160.htm) but (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/235.htm) according to (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/2596.htm) his (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/846.htm) mercy (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1656.htm) ....
Secondly he does not say works of law in Galatatians but that righteousness does not come THROUGH THE LAW ...
Ron, Are you contending that Paul would not have written:
for if righteousness comes through the works of faith, then Christ died in vain.
Did not Israel obey the law through faith in His Word ... hence their obedience also being a work of faith?
LadyRev
07-09-2008, 12:28 PM
"I feel that in our discussions the last few days, there have been some lines blurred between people who believe in uncut hair, and people who believe in magic hair."
Okay, I'm quoting myself...:D
One way the Magic Hair Doctrine is "dangerous" is in the way it undermines those who have a conviction based on what they read in scripture regarding hair, and associates them whether they like it or not with fanciful false doctrine.
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I, for one, do not like nor want such an association. And I know I'm not alone.
The local cult group in my area is more than enough "bad" association.
Baron1710
07-09-2008, 12:28 PM
I can and do have faith in God, I also can & do have faith in my commitment to God through the Grace he gives to empower me to live the way he wants too.
I couldn't disagree with you more. Do you live perfectly? If not then you have a misplaced faith in your commitment. Does not your failure show a lack of commitment?
and there are works of righteousness ... which I believe Paul focused on too.
Titus 3:5 ....
Not (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3756.htm) by (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1537.htm) works (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/2041.htm) of (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1722.htm) righteousness (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1343.htm) which (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3739.htm) we (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/2249.htm) have done (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4160.htm) but (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/235.htm) according to (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/2596.htm) his (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/846.htm) mercy (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1656.htm) ....
Secondly he does not say works of law in Galatation but that righteousness does not come THROUGH THE LAW ...
Ron, Are you contending that Paul would not have written:
for if righteousness comes through the works of faith, then Christ died in vain.
God is my perfect sacrifice & atonement for sin.
As I grow in him he reveals things to his children about things that we need to change in our lives to be more like Jesus-that is his goal.
Do I falter? Too many times, but he did say that we have this treasure in earthen vessels & he is patient as I endevour to be like him.
I couldn't disagree with you more. Do you live perfectly? If not then you have a misplaced faith in your commitment. Does not your failure show a lack of commitment?
No, if I fail it shows my humanity.
Baron1710
07-09-2008, 12:31 PM
No, if I fail it shows my humanity.
So you have misplaced your faith. Faith should be in Him alone.
So you have misplaced your faith. Faith should be in Him alone.
Where does it say that I don't have faith in Christ?
There are some things that God wants us to do.
Pastor Keith
07-09-2008, 12:34 PM
So Keith, we don't need commitment to God?:hmmm
Simple cart before the horse analogy, of course commitment is a fruit and product of believing faith, but our trust and faith must be God directed not at our faith or commitment.
The source of many of believers frustration is that they are far to often focused on themselves, do I pray enough, do I love enough, am I holy enought, etc. That leads to a works mentality and will totally frustrate the grace of God.
Baron1710
07-09-2008, 12:36 PM
Where does it say that I don't have faith in Christ?
There are some things that God wants us to do.
When you place your faith in your commitment to Him, you no longer have faith in Christ alone. You now have faith in what you do.
No one ever said there are not things God wants us to do, but that's not where my faith lies.
Simple cart before the horse analogy, of course commitment is a fruit and product of believing faith, but our trust and faith must be God directed not at our faith or commitment.
The source of many of believers frustration is that they are far to often focused on themselves, do I pray enough, do I love enough, am I holy enought, etc. That leads to a works mentality and will totally frustrate the grace of God.
True. I for one wouldn't have made it 25 years living for God if it was all up to me.
Nevertheless, there are things God speaks to me about to be more like him.
Pastor Keith
07-09-2008, 12:36 PM
That goes without saying, how can you commit to something you don't believe in?
Faith in the finished work of Calvary is a good place to start.
Simple cart before the horse analogy, of course commitment is a fruit and product of believing faith, but our trust and faith must be God directed not at our faith or commitment.
The source of many of believers frustration is that they are far to often focused on themselves, do I pray enough, do I love enough, am I holy enought, etc. That leads to a works mentality and will totally frustrate the grace of God.
The cart before the horse .... was exactly what I was thinking ...
It's this mentality that befalls many OP and other believers as well ...
The frustration felt by FB ... is what has caused many to get so frustrated that they feel they will never measure up ... and leave the Church outright.
Preachers and saints of God don't help in this equation at times either ... especially when we dismiss repeat offenders as unable to access grace ...
Last nite I heard of one preacher ... who did just this ...
A woman called her sister, the preacher's wife, and told her that she'd like to go to church w/ them on Sunday .... the wife mentioned it to her husband who was by the phone listening ....
He said she was not welcome to their home or church because of her constant "tweaking" ... a reference to her bouts w/ drug addiction ...
She could not come.
Grace is so foreign to many in our circles that they make it literally impossible for anyone to experience it.
We may have blood on our hands .... for causing irreparable damage in how we teach and approach salvation and our sanctification
Faith in the finished work of Calvary is a good place to start.
That is what I believe, and I think those that have some belief in standards do as well.
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:44 PM
Simple cart before the horse analogy, of course commitment is a fruit and product of believing faith, but our trust and faith must be God directed not at our faith or commitment.
The source of many of believers frustration is that they are far to often focused on themselves, do I pray enough, do I love enough, am I holy enought, etc. That leads to a works mentality and will totally frustrate the grace of God.
Exactly and well said, Keith.
Now, this does go well with the point of the thread, of course.
I don't think, outside of the point of the thread, we do have our faith in our commitments which would be Ron's, as well as, my point.
Pastor Keith
07-09-2008, 12:44 PM
True. I for one wouldn't have made it 25 years living for God if it was all up to me.
Nevertheless, there are things God speaks to me about to be more like him.
Your response to his grace and work in your life demonstrates your love for him, but the lack of it will never undermine His love towards you. But you must believe it and allow it to happen. You don't have to earn his Favor or blessing, it has been freely given at Calvary.
Our faith must be placed in Him for our regeneration and sanctification ....
Some believe that when they place their faith in Him somehow that must provide the impetus for the change in their lives .... rather than letting Him do the good work ... surrendering entirely to His Spirit to effect that change. It's what He's done and is doing ... not in what I can do to prove what He's done.
The cart before the horse .... was exactly what I was thinking ...
It's this mentality that befalls many OP and other believers as well ...
The frustration felt by FB ... is what has caused many to get so frustrated that they feel they will never measure up ... and leave the Church outright.
Preachers and saints of God don't help in this equation at times either ... especially when we dismiss repeat offenders as unable to access grace ...
Last nite I heard of one preacher ... who did just this ...
A woman called her sister, the preacher's wife, and told her that she'd like to go to church w/ them on Sunday .... the wife mentioned it to her husband who was by the phone listening ....
He said she was not welcome to their home or church because of her constant "tweaking" ... a reference to her bouts w/ drug addiction ...
She could not come.
Grace is so foreign to many in our circles that they make it literally impossible for anyone to experience it.
We may have blood on our hands .... for causing irreparable damage in how we teach and approach salvation and our sanctification
What??????
Like I said before, I wouldn't have made it 25 years without a whole lot of grace.
Where was this person to go?
That is the place we all need to be is at Church when we struggle.
I can't believe that those people would be turned away.
Baron1710
07-09-2008, 12:47 PM
Our faith must be placed in him for our regeneration and sanctification ....
Some believe that when they place their faith in Him somehow that must provide the impetus for the change in their lives .... rather than letting ... surrendering entirely to His Spirit to effect that change. It's what He's done and is doing ... not in what I can do to prove what He's done.
Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Your response to his grace and work in your life demonstrates your love for him, but the lack of it will never undermine His love towards you. But you must believe it and allow it to happen. You don't have to earn his Favor or blessing, it has been freely given at Calvary.
I have no problem with that!
I believe that 100%.
Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
I'm going to have read Galatians this week .... That's powerful.
mizpeh
07-09-2008, 12:49 PM
Our faith must be placed in him for our regeneration and sanctification ....
Some believe that when they place their faith in Him somehow that must provide the impetus for the change in their lives .... rather than letting ... surrendering entirely to His Spirit to effect that change. It's what He's done and is doing ... not in what I can do to prove what He's done.
But Dan, we don't sit like a bump on a log and do nothing. The epistles are full of "verbs" which are action words.....for example: pray, rejoice, crucified the flesh, love...etc. telling us to DO something!
We can't do anything without the grace of God and the Spirit working in us but we are not passive in the process.
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:50 PM
Our faith must be placed in him for our regeneration and sanctification ....
Some believe that when they place their faith in Him somehow that must provide the impetus for the change in their lives .... rather than letting ... surrendering entirely to His Spirit to effect that change. It's what He's done and is doing ... not in what I can do to prove what He's done.
I agree with you Daniel, but in the agreeing I must also say that you broadbrush so many people with your statements.
You always seem to accuse!
I have observed many things being in the UPC. Outside of the "company man", there are people who desperately love their God, read their Bibles, pray and want to get closer to Him. They have more faith in HIM ALONE than anything else and that includes standards.
mizpeh
07-09-2008, 12:50 PM
Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
They received the Holy Spirit by faith but they had to ask for it. God didn't just pour out his Spirit while they sat and twiddled their thumbs! :whistle
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:51 PM
But Dan, we don't sit like a bump on a log and do nothing. The epistles are full of "verbs" which are action words.....for example: pray, rejoice, crucified the flesh, love...etc.
We can't do anything without the grace of God and the Spirit working in us but we are not passive in the process.
Amen, my friend. Very good words!
But Dan, we don't sit like a bump on a log and do nothing. The epistles are full of "verbs" which are action words.....for example: pray, rejoice, crucified the flesh, love...etc.
We can't do anything without the grace of God and the Spirit working in us but we are not passive in the process.
Agreed it's an action word in placing our faith ... and trust in Him ... do we not have faith enough to surrender ourselves entirely to the work of the Holy Spirit ...
Paul said I no longer live but Christ in me ....
The action we take is full surrender. To some that is not enough .....
Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Did you read the context of which he was writing?
There were Judaizers creeping in who were trying to keep the works of the law.
We don't live by the law.
We still are supposed to forsake sin.
Nice try.
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 12:53 PM
I'm going to have read Galatians this week .... That's powerful.
Powerful book, Daniel. I agree. My favorite verse:
Galatians 3:3 "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"
The flesh.......
They received the Holy Spirit by faith but they had to ask for it. God didn't just pour out his Spirit while they sat and twiddled their thumbs! :whistle
"FAITH" is a verb!
Did you read the context of which he was writing?
There were Judaizers creeping in who were trying to keep the works of the law.
We don't live by the law.
We still are supposed to forsake sin.
Nice try.
What law do you speak of Ron?
Baron1710
07-09-2008, 12:54 PM
Did you read the context of which he was writing?
There were Judaizers creeping in who were trying to keep the works of the law.
We don't live by the law.
We still are supposed to forsake sin.
Nice try.
Uh ya I did read the context. Nobody ever said there wasn't works that followed salvation. But they don't perfect me nor do I place my faith in my works.
What law do you speak of Ron?
What law?
For real?
What law?
For real?
No really ... what law do you speak of?
Uh ya I did read the context. Nobody ever said there wasn't works that followed salvation. But they don't perfect me nor do I place my faith in my works.
We repent as part of salvation.
Do you know that repentance is an action word?
We repent as part of salvation.
Do you know that repentance is an action word?
All done because of faith in Christ .... the horse comes first ... PO agrees w/ this.
Our turning around requires that initial faith IN JESUS CHRIST... the rest is fruit .... which as Baron said DO NOT PERFECT ME.
All done because of faith in Christ .... the horse comes first ... PO agrees w/ this.
I disagree. Faith and works are intertwined. Read James.
I disagree. Faith and works are intertwined. Read James.
They are linked but not one and the same... works follow faith ....
If their is genuine faith ... there will be genuine works ....that follow
He is the vine ... we are the branches ... the fruit is His.
That which is dead is dead ... unless His regenerative Spirit does not quicken us to life ... they are dead works.
They are linked but not one and the same... works follow faith ....
If their is genuine faith ... their will be genuine works ....
He is the vine ... we are the branches ... the fruit is His.
Bingo!
Bingo!
Yet it is cause and effect, my friend ... which you cannot separate in your mind.
Not faith in faith ... but faith that he will produce works that meet repentance ... fruit that are His ... not ours so that we may boast.
Still waiting Ron ... on what law you speak of ...???
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 01:04 PM
All done because of faith in Christ .... the horse comes first ... PO agrees w/ this.
Our turning around requires that initial faith IN JESUS CHRIST... the rest is fruit .... which as Baron said DO NOT PERFECT ME.
I do agree that faith comes first. It must!
Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
I then believe our faith, our God directed commitments and our works become so intertwined that it's all of one thing, knowing our faith resides in Him alone.
Did you read the context of which he was writing?
There were Judaizers creeping in who were trying to keep the works of the law.
We don't live by the law.
We still are supposed to forsake sin.
Nice try.
Another point in which this thinking breaks down is yes he's speaking about Judaizers ... and yes they were adding to salvation through the law ...
but Paul points to a bigger principle that we are perfected by His Spirit and not the flesh .... whether it be obedience to the law or our good works ... or even works we deem to be by faith .... it is fleshly centered and driven.
Yet it is cause and effect, my friend ... which you cannot separate in your mind.
Not faith in faith ... but faith that he will produce works that meet repentance ... fruit that are His ... not ours so that we may boast.
I am still at a loss as to what you are saying about works????
I repent because I believe God, he then gives me Grace to do what I need to do.
I don't boast that I can do what God wants me to do.
I am grateful for the opportunity to do so.
Another point in which this thinking breaks down is yes he's speaking about Judaizers ... and yes they were adding to salvation through the law ...
but Paul points to a bigger principle that we are perfected by His Spirit and not the flesh .... whether it be obedience to the law or our good works ... it is fleshly centered and driven.
Only if you are looking for justification by those works.
When I have done my best, I still fall short.
My righteousness is still filthy rags.
Only if you are looking for justification by those works.
When I have done my best, I still fall short.
My righteousness is still filthy rags.
And yet many believe that unless certain works are attained first on the checklist ... proving one's "commitment" ... placing faith in that commitment ... than there is no righteous standing before ... God ...
The very thing Keith has said.
And yet many believe that unless certain works are attained first on the checklist ... proving one's "commitment" ... placing faith in that commitment ... than there is no righteous standing before ... God ...
The very thing Keith has said.
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Pretty simple to me.
If you have faith-you will have works to back up that faith.
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Pretty simple to me.
If you have faith-you will have works to back up that faith.
Who said these words? John the Baptist ... who was he speaking to? .... the people of Israel ... pre New Covenant ... (for you dispensationalists this poses a problem when used as pre-text for a works-based salvational paradigm)
was this repentance faith in the work of Jesus Christ for ... or faith in God and His Word to the Sadduccees and Pharisees and the Israelites ... which was the law? Was this faith, nonetheless that God would provide salvation? If they repented ... would that be enough for a 3 stepper ...?
Was faith and repentance in Him enough for them ... but we have to complete a checklist/recipe now for His Spirit to quicken us to life?
The Jew never obeyed the law to cause their salvation .... ask them why they do it.
In John 15 ... Jesus said his disciples would bring forth His fruit as branches grafted and surrendered to the Vine.
We know that all good gifts come from above ... that it's His Word that is the instrument that brings us to repentance and that produces Godly sorrow ... am I saying we don't play a part of course in having faith ... we will turn to him and rely on Him for our salvation. If there is genuine faith there will be repentance ... baptism ... etc. etc. etc.
Also meet here does not mean cause but rather genuine repentance will have fruit of worth.
Who said these words? John the Baptist ... who was he speaking to? .... the people of Israel ... pre New Covenant ... (for you dispensationalists this poses a problem when used as pre-text)
was this repentance faith in the work of Jesus Christ for ... or faith in God and His Word to the Sadduccees and Pharisees and the Israelites ... which was the law? Was this faith, nonetheless that God would provide salvation? If they repented ... would that be enough for a 3 stepper ...?
In John 15 ... Jesus said his disciples would bring forth His fruit as branches grafted and surrendered to the Vine.
We know that all good gifts come from above ... that it's His Word that is the instrument that brings us to repentance and that produces Godly sorrow ... am I saying we don't play a part of course in having faith ... we will turn to him and rely on Him for our salvation.
All I am saying is what the Bible says,
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
All I am saying is what the Bible says,
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
And I believe:
1. That the Word does not contradict itself.
2. This passage only supports the one-step Gospel message further
3. Find the context of this passage to deal w/ giving to the poor and yet none of us would dare say that this causes our justification.
Here is a sound biblical explanation of James 2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=James+2), by Bernie Gillespie:
WHAT ABRAHAM’S FAITH MEANS
The story of Abraham concerning the promised offspring is a perfect, God-inspired illustration of the working of justification by faith. God gave Abraham a word of promise that he would be the father of many nations. He was to be the father of the Messiah. Through him would come the offspring (singular) which would bless the whole world. But, Abraham was childless. Sarah was barren. They could do nothing to make the promise come to pass. They did try to do many things to help God, but He rejected them all. The child they had was a miracle - a supernatural work of conception by God. Sarah gave birth by faith alone: "Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable." (Heb. 11:11-12 KJV (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Heb.+11%3A11-12))
All they could do was receive the miracle. The promise was given to Abraham before he was faithful. He was not faithful in order to earn the promise, but because of the assurance of the promise. This is true of justification by faith. We bring nothing to the table of salvation but open empty hands. God promises, fulfills the promise supernaturally, and we in awe, wonder, and trust receive the gift of new birth.
This story tells us something else. The faith that Abraham placed in God’s declaration of justification was not mental assent. It was a faith which endured throughout and up to the end of his life. Justifying faith is anything but "easy believism." It is a rugged faith created in the heart by the entrance of the Word of promise. Nothing will separate one who believes from the love of God. "Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Phil. 1:6)
If we understand James correctly, we see that Abraham’s sacrifice of Isaac was evidence that God was right in Genesis fifteen. God’s justifying work was effective in Abraham’s life the rest of his life. The test of time and of God proved that the work of justification is valid. This is in fact why God tested Abraham. It was not to see if he was worthy of salvation. But, it was to show the world that his salvation was sure. Based on this sure salvation, God gave the world an object lesson of the Gospel: the offering of one’s only son.
While Abraham was justified (made right with God) by faith alone, without works (Gen. 15:6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Gen.+15%3A6), Rom. 4 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Rom.+4)), Abraham's faith (not his person) was justified by what he did. [No person justified by faith is free to live a life of ungodliness. All who are justified by faith are called to a life of obedience to Christ and true holiness, which is the character of Jesus Christ.]
Paul says in Romans, ABRAHAM was justified.
In James, Abraham’s FAITH was justified.
For Paul in Romans, the SINNER is forgiven. In James, the believer is approved as a believer evidenced by a changed life. When we are justified, we are saved through trust alone in Christ alone. As a result, that faith will be demonstrated through the living presence of Jesus in our everyday life. If it is not, we must examine our faith to see if it is in Christ alone or in Christ plus something else. THIS IS THE TRUE AND FINAL TEST.
Abraham showed by his works that his faith was in God alone. This is why Abraham was saved. He was saved by faith in God alone. His faith was "justified" or proved by his works. He was not justified FOR his works. His justification or salvation was APART from and PRIOR to his works. But the works will always follow because the heart that is redeemed will desire to glorify God in true discipleship and submission to the will of God.
James was not teaching that a person must keep the Law or perform certain religious functions to be saved. That is far from the message of the book of James. It is also interesting that the people who want to quote James against the "believe only" people don’t seem to have a proper understanding about what James is teaching. In fact they may come under James’ correction for unwittingly doing what James is denouncing.
INAUTHENTIC FAITH
James'’ letter (as is true in most epistles) reveals certain problems among his readers. We can discern these problems by noting the admonitions given to them by James. The controversy of James was that some Jewish Christians were claiming to have the "faith of Christ," while their lives failed to reflect the presence of Christ. How was this known? Was it by super-spiritual discernment? No. It was by the absence of Christ’s character in their lives. This is an observation that even the world can make (John 13:35 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+13%3A35)). They were very religious and had their doctrine fairly straight. However, their faith was lacking because it did not reflect the One in whom they supposedly believed.
James’ admonitions indicate they failed in many areas of character and conduct. They did not have compassion on the widows and orphans (1:27), they were showing favoritism and were prejudiced (2:1), they were intolerant (2:4), they failed to fulfill the "royal law" (2:13) [not the Mosaic Law] which was to "love your neighbor as yourself" [which was the ethic or law of Jesus], they came up short in providing for the needy (2:16), some were cursing others with their tongues and violating others with their mouths (3:10), out of the heart they displayed bitter envy and selfish ambitions (3:14), they were boastful and "false to the truth" (3:14), they engaged in conflicts and disputes (4:1), they were proud and arrogant (4:7-10)(4:16), they spoke evil against their brothers (4:11), they were judgmental (4:12), they did not do what was right although they knew it to be right (4:17), they grumbled against other brothers and sisters (5:9). James says this type of living is not inspired of God, but is unspiritual and devilish. It is inspired by the flesh (Jas. 3:15).
The works that they failed to keep were not the works of the law. James was correcting their failure to keep the ROYAL LAW of Christ. This was even after claiming justifying faith in Christ. He was saying that their behavior did not reflect that of one who had true faith in Jesus. They should have been compassionate, impartial, tolerant, blessing with their words, sweet and contented, selfless, peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, full of righteousness, humble, patient, confessing sins, and leading sinners back to God. [Notice that James does not list any formulas, duties, ordinances, or codes of outward appearance in this list. I point this out because James is used by some to prove that these are the "works" to which James is referring. And then the huge assumption is made that they are necessary for justification (or salvation).]
We'll agree to disagree ABOUT JUSTIFICATION.
And I believe:
1. That the Word does not contradict itself.
2. This passage only supports the one-step Gospel message further
3. Find the context of this passage to deal w/ giving to the poor and yet none of us would dare say that this causes our justification.
Here is a sound biblical explanation of James 2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=James+2), by Bernie Gillespie:
WHAT ABRAHAM’S FAITH MEANS
The story of Abraham concerning the promised offspring is a perfect, God-inspired illustration of the working of justification by faith. God gave Abraham a word of promise that he would be the father of many nations. He was to be the father of the Messiah. Through him would come the offspring (singular) which would bless the whole world. But, Abraham was childless. Sarah was barren. They could do nothing to make the promise come to pass. They did try to do many things to help God, but He rejected them all. The child they had was a miracle - a supernatural work of conception by God. Sarah gave birth by faith alone: "Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable." (Heb. 11:11-12 KJV (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Heb.+11%3A11-12))
All they could do was receive the miracle. The promise was given to Abraham before he was faithful. He was not faithful in order to earn the promise, but because of the assurance of the promise. This is true of justification by faith. We bring nothing to the table of salvation but open empty hands. God promises, fulfills the promise supernaturally, and we in awe, wonder, and trust receive the gift of new birth.
This story tells us something else. The faith that Abraham placed in God’s declaration of justification was not mental assent. It was a faith which endured throughout and up to the end of his life. Justifying faith is anything but "easy believism." It is a rugged faith created in the heart by the entrance of the Word of promise. Nothing will separate one who believes from the love of God. "Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Phil. 1:6)
If we understand James correctly, we see that Abraham’s sacrifice of Isaac was evidence that God was right in Genesis fifteen. God’s justifying work was effective in Abraham’s life the rest of his life. The test of time and of God proved that the work of justification is valid. This is in fact why God tested Abraham. It was not to see if he was worthy of salvation. But, it was to show the world that his salvation was sure. Based on this sure salvation, God gave the world an object lesson of the Gospel: the offering of one’s only son.
While Abraham was justified (made right with God) by faith alone, without works (Gen. 15:6 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Gen.+15%3A6), Rom. 4 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Rom.+4)), Abraham's faith (not his person) was justified by what he did. [No person justified by faith is free to live a life of ungodliness. All who are justified by faith are called to a life of obedience to Christ and true holiness, which is the character of Jesus Christ.]
Paul says in Romans, ABRAHAM was justified.
In James, Abraham’s FAITH was justified.
For Paul in Romans, the SINNER is forgiven. In James, the believer is approved as a believer evidenced by a changed life. When we are justified, we are saved through trust alone in Christ alone. As a result, that faith will be demonstrated through the living presence of Jesus in our everyday life. If it is not, we must examine our faith to see if it is in Christ alone or in Christ plus something else. THIS IS THE TRUE AND FINAL TEST.
Abraham showed by his works that his faith was in God alone. This is why Abraham was saved. He was saved by faith in God alone. His faith was "justified" or proved by his works. He was not justified FOR his works. His justification or salvation was APART from and PRIOR to his works. But the works will always follow because the heart that is redeemed will desire to glorify God in true discipleship and submission to the will of God.
James was not teaching that a person must keep the Law or perform certain religious functions to be saved. That is far from the message of the book of James. It is also interesting that the people who want to quote James against the "believe only" people don’t seem to have a proper understanding about what James is teaching. In fact they may come under James’ correction for unwittingly doing what James is denouncing.
INAUTHENTIC FAITH
James'’ letter (as is true in most epistles) reveals certain problems among his readers. We can discern these problems by noting the admonitions given to them by James. The controversy of James was that some Jewish Christians were claiming to have the "faith of Christ," while their lives failed to reflect the presence of Christ. How was this known? Was it by super-spiritual discernment? No. It was by the absence of Christ’s character in their lives. This is an observation that even the world can make (John 13:35 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+13%3A35)). They were very religious and had their doctrine fairly straight. However, their faith was lacking because it did not reflect the One in whom they supposedly believed.
James’ admonitions indicate they failed in many areas of character and conduct. They did not have compassion on the widows and orphans (1:27), they were showing favoritism and were prejudiced (2:1), they were intolerant (2:4), they failed to fulfill the "royal law" (2:13) [not the Mosaic Law] which was to "love your neighbor as yourself" [which was the ethic or law of Jesus], they came up short in providing for the needy (2:16), some were cursing others with their tongues and violating others with their mouths (3:10), out of the heart they displayed bitter envy and selfish ambitions (3:14), they were boastful and "false to the truth" (3:14), they engaged in conflicts and disputes (4:1), they were proud and arrogant (4:7-10)(4:16), they spoke evil against their brothers (4:11), they were judgmental (4:12), they did not do what was right although they knew it to be right (4:17), they grumbled against other brothers and sisters (5:9). James says this type of living is not inspired of God, but is unspiritual and devilish. It is inspired by the flesh (Jas. 3:15).
The works that they failed to keep were not the works of the law. James was correcting their failure to keep the ROYAL LAW of Christ. This was even after claiming justifying faith in Christ. He was saying that their behavior did not reflect that of one who had true faith in Jesus. They should have been compassionate, impartial, tolerant, blessing with their words, sweet and contented, selfless, peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, full of righteousness, humble, patient, confessing sins, and leading sinners back to God. [Notice that James does not list any formulas, duties, ordinances, or codes of outward appearance in this list. I point this out because James is used by some to prove that these are the "works" to which James is referring. And then the huge assumption is made that they are necessary for justification (or salvation).]
We'll agree to disagree ABOUT JUSTIFICATION.
That we shall!
The Mrs
07-09-2008, 02:03 PM
I was amazed to come to the forum today to see this thread. It contains the exact thoughts that have been bouncing around in my head all morning...
How can we look at this uncut hair doctrine and NOT see it as an additional step to salvation/sanctification? And it ONLY applies to women!
Thank you Keith, DA, and others for your input! :wave
I was amazed to come to the forum today to see this thread. It contains the exact thoughts that have been bouncing around in my head all morning...
How can we look at this uncut hair doctrine and NOT see it as an additional step to salvation/sanctification? And it ONLY applies to women!
Thank you Keith, DA, and others for your input! :wave
Wives submitting to thier husbands only applies to women as well.:whistle
RandyWayne
07-09-2008, 02:57 PM
I was amazed to come to the forum today to see this thread. It contains the exact thoughts that have been bouncing around in my head all morning...
How can we look at this uncut hair doctrine and NOT see it as an additional step to salvation/sanctification? And it ONLY applies to women!
Thank you Keith, DA, and others for your input! :wave
You are right and this is something I have thought of long long before these threads popped up the past week. Anytime you create an additional "work" that must be done (or not done) in order to gain entrance into heaven, most of the damage has already been done as far as future wacky doctrines that might arise as a result of the first.
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 03:07 PM
And I believe:
1. That the Word does not contradict itself.
2. This passage only supports the one-step Gospel message further
3. Find the context of this passage to deal w/ giving to the poor and yet none of us would dare say that this causes our justification.
Here is a sound biblical explanation of James 2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=James+2), by Bernie Gillespie:
WHAT ABRAHAM’S FAITH MEANS
All they could do was receive the miracle. The promise was given to Abraham before he was faithful. He was not faithful in order to earn the promise, but because of the assurance of the promise. This is true of justification by faith. We bring nothing to the table of salvation but open empty hands. God promises, fulfills the promise supernaturally, and we in awe, wonder, and trust receive the gift of new birth.
Daniel,
I tried to read this article, but I can't get past the above. This rather contradicts scripture.
Romans 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
Your article is stating that Abraham did not begin with faith but the Word says that God has dealt TO EVERY MAN the measure of faith. If Abraham didn't believe and have faith he wouldn't have left Haran.
Your author even speaks of Sarah's faith. Hebrews 11:11 "Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised."
We do bring something to the table of salvation - ourselves in humility. That takes a tremendous amount of faith.
The promise was made from the foundation of the world. God imparts a measure of faith so that we can thereby receive it.
Daniel,
I tried to read this article, but I can't get past the above. This rather contradicts scripture.
Romans 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
Your article is stating that Abraham did not begin with faith but the Word says that God has dealt TO EVERY MAN the measure of faith. If Abraham didn't believe and have faith he wouldn't have left Haran.
We do bring something to the table of salvation - ourselves in humility. That takes a tremendous amount of faith.
The promise was made from the foundation of the world. God imparts a measure of faith so that we can thereby receive it.
PO, all we need is to blab it and grab it, & name it and claim it.
BTW, God wants you to be rich and successful too!:whistle
Pressing-On
07-09-2008, 03:15 PM
PO, all we need is to blab it and grab it, & name it and claim it.
BTW, God wants you to be rich and successful too!:whistle
LOL!
Well, aside from all of that, I think the article is stretching for some purpose. We better stop singing about "faithful" Abraham in Sunday School. ;)
Adino
08-22-2008, 10:04 PM
Daniel,
I tried to read this article, but I can't get past the above. This rather contradicts scripture.
Romans 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
Your article is stating that Abraham did not begin with faith but the Word says that God has dealt TO EVERY MAN the measure of faith. If Abraham didn't believe and have faith he wouldn't have left Haran.
Your author even speaks of Sarah's faith. Hebrews 11:11 "Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised."
We do bring something to the table of salvation - ourselves in humility. That takes a tremendous amount of faith.
The promise was made from the foundation of the world. God imparts a measure of faith so that we can thereby receive it.I disagree. I see a couple of ways to understand the phrase "measure of faith" in this passage.
1) God has given to each of those saved people being addressed by Paul a measure of faith. The phrase thus deals with the various intensities of faith within the body and has nothing to do with those outside the Church. This point is underscored by 2 Thessalonians 3:2 which outright tells us that "all men have not faith."
2) If it is somehow a reference to ALL men in and out of the Church, it is a reference to the standard of faith. All men are given the same standard/measure of faith. Thus, the meaning is not that ALL men on earth have received a portion of faith, but that ALL have been given THE standard which is faith. ALL men can come to the Father and be incorporated into the body ONLY by the standard of faith in Christ.
While the latter is possible, I think the first best fits the context.
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