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Scott Hutchinson
07-09-2008, 04:16 PM
And Samuel said to Saul,Why hast thou disquited me,to bring me up ? And Saul answered I am sore distressed;for the Phillistines to make war agains't me,and God is departed from me,and answereth no more,neither by prophets,nor by dreams,therefore I have called thee,that thou make known unto me what I shall do. 1.SAM.28:15
OK we know the familiar account how Saul contacted a woman from En-dor with a familiar spirit to contact Samuel see 1 Samuel 28.
My question is where was Samuel when he was contacted,what was he in sheol a place of departed spirits awaiting a resurrection,just where was Samuel resting ? Was he in soul sleep ?

Bro-Larry
07-09-2008, 04:41 PM
That wasn't Samuel. It was an evil spirit, who was familiar with him, when he was alive, masquerading as Samuel. The Witch of En-dor had a familiar spirit.

But to answer your question, "Where was Samuel?" He was in Abraham's Bosom. That's where the souls of dead people went, before Jesus' death and resurrection.

bkstokes
07-09-2008, 06:23 PM
Did you get this thought from a source or is it your own?
Bro Larry

Rico
07-09-2008, 06:27 PM
Did you get this thought from a source or is it your own?
Bro Larry

I think he makes it up as he goes along. If you read the text, it clearly says Samuel was speaking to Saul.

Praxeas
07-09-2008, 06:28 PM
If this was the witches familiar spirit and not Samuel why did she react the way she did?

bkstokes
07-09-2008, 06:37 PM
I read the Samuels a couple of weeks ago. If I remember it correctly the spirit simply sums up previous messages that Samuel had given to Saul. I don't think the spirit changed the message any. It does not seem like a lying spirit to me.

jediwill83
07-09-2008, 06:42 PM
I believe he was in Abrahams bosum.

Rico
07-09-2008, 06:43 PM
I read the Samuels a couple of weeks ago. If I remember it correctly the spirit simply sums up previous messages that Samuel had given to Saul. I don't think the spirit changed the message any. It does not seem like a lying spirit to me.

Wow. I finished up with the Samuels a couple of weeks ago myself. They were my first choice in studying the prophets. I didn't get too much of the kind of stuff I was looking for, but I certainly did gain some perspective on what made David so special in the eyes of God. It was all in his approach to God.

CC1
07-09-2008, 07:00 PM
And Samuel said to Saul,Why hast thou disquited me,to bring me up ? And Saul answered I am sore distressed;for the Phillistines to make war agains't me,and God is departed from me,and answereth no more,neither by prophets,nor by dreams,therefore I have called thee,that thou make known unto me what I shall do. 1.SAM.28:15
OK we know the familiar account how Saul contacted a woman from En-dor with a familiar spirit to contact Samuel see 1 Samuel 28.
My question is where was Samuel when he was contacted,what was he in sheol a place of departed spirits awaiting a resurrection,just where was Samuel resting ? Was he in soul sleep ?

Super Wal Mart.

Bro-Larry
07-09-2008, 07:14 PM
Did you get this thought from a source or is it your own?
Bro Larry

I don't remember anyone in particular teaching that. Seems like I've always known it. It's just the way channelers and mediums operate.



:ursofunny

Bro-Larry
07-09-2008, 07:39 PM
If this was the witches familiar spirit and not Samuel why did she react the way she did?

Praz, you must be pulling my leg, bro? You don't really think any witch or wizard can call up a human spirit from the dead do you?

Bro-Larry
07-09-2008, 07:43 PM
I think he makes it up as he goes along. If you read the text, it clearly says Samuel was speaking to Saul.

The "familiar" spirit fooled both Saul, and the witch. I'm beginning to wonder about Rico????? Nooooootttt! Rico, I know you don't really believe that? or do you?

Rico
07-09-2008, 07:59 PM
The "familiar" spirit fooled both Saul, and the witch. I'm beginning to wonder about Rico????? Nooooootttt! Rico, I know you don't really believe that? or do you?

I believe what the Bible says, and it says that Samuel was speaking to Saul. I am not into rewriting the Word of God to suit my thoughts on what should or shouldn't be. Once we start changing what the Word of God says there's no stopping the editing. Very dangerous ground to build on.

Praxeas
07-09-2008, 08:04 PM
Praz, you must be pulling my leg, bro? You don't really think any witch or wizard can call up a human spirit from the dead do you?
Did you read what I posted? I asked a question not made an assertion

Praxeas
07-09-2008, 08:05 PM
Here's a thought. God allowed it to happen, not that the witch could do it, for the purpose of one last rebuke of Saul

U376977
07-09-2008, 09:09 PM
Here's a thought. God allowed it to happen, not that the witch could do it, for the purpose of one last rebuke of Saul

Exactly Prax., I have always believed this was Samuel. The witch was surprised when he actually appeared. That is the only explanation. God can certainly allow those departed saints to appear to whoever he chooses. Remember the LORD was with Moses and Elijah on the Mount. Hebrews states we are "surrounded" with a great company of witnesses (I think they are actually cognizant to what is happening here).

If this were an evil or familiar spirit then the Bible audaciously states wrongly that it was Samuel. I have heard the theory preached about it being an evil spirit before, BUT never have they been able to explain the witches reaction, or why the Bible says that it was Samuel. My pastor preaches this was an evil spirit. But I think he is wrong.

Michael The Disciple
07-09-2008, 10:10 PM
Here's a thought. God allowed it to happen, not that the witch could do it, for the purpose of one last rebuke of Saul

Agreed Prax. God woke him out of sleep to which he returned.

Scott Hutchinson
07-10-2008, 10:18 PM
I read one translation where it said Samuel came up from the earth.He appeared in the form of a old man.
I don't understand all of this,but I take it in faith.

Bro-Larry
07-12-2008, 08:32 PM
I believe what the Bible says, and it says that Samuel was speaking to Saul. I am not into rewriting the Word of God to suit my thoughts on what should or shouldn't be. Once we start changing what the Word of God says there's no stopping the editing. Very dangerous ground to build on.

You keep forgetting, Rico, it's not necessarily "the word of God" it's what King James I's transalators thought was the word of God.

Bro-Larry
07-12-2008, 08:42 PM
Exactly Prax., I have always believed this was Samuel. The witch was surprised when he actually appeared. That is the only explanation. God can certainly allow those departed saints to appear to whoever he chooses. Remember the LORD was with Moses and Elijah on the Mount. Hebrews states we are "surrounded" with a great company of witnesses (I think they are actually cognizant to what is happening here).

If this were an evil or familiar spirit then the Bible audaciously states wrongly that it was Samuel. I have heard the theory preached about it being an evil spirit before, BUT never have they been able to explain the witches reaction, or why the Bible says that it was Samuel. My pastor preaches this was an evil spirit. But I think he is wrong.

Sorry my brothers, May God bless you with wisdom, but I see the total context as saying it was a familiar spirit, mascurading as Samuel.

"Wisdom: the ability to see the situation as God sees it." (Joel Keith Layne Aug 2, 1992)

Sam
07-12-2008, 08:46 PM
Though questions have arisen as to the nature of Samuel's appearance, the text clearly indicates that Samuel, not an apparition, was evident to the eyes of the medium. God miraculously permitted the actual spirit of Samuel to speak (vv.16-19). Because she understood her inability to raise the dead, in this manner, she immediately knew
1) that it must have been the power of God
and
2) that her disguised inquirer must be Saul


For what it's worth, these are notes from The MacArthur Study Bible

Scott Hutchinson
07-12-2008, 08:47 PM
Bro.Larry I'm open to hear you out on this,could you please explain a little further ?

Bro-Larry
07-12-2008, 09:14 PM
Though questions have arisen as to the nature of Samuel's appearance, the text clearly indicates that Samuel, not an apparition, was evident to the eyes of the medium. God miraculously permitted the actual spirit of Samuel to speak (vv.16-19). Because she understood her inability to raise the dead, in this manner, she immediately knew
1) that it must have been the power of God
and
2) that her disguised inquirer must be Saul


For what it's worth, these are notes from The MacArthur Study Bible

Bro Sam, Bro Scott, If God would not answer Saul by dreams, or by Urim, or by the [live] prophets (vv.6), tell me why would He answer Saul by a dead prophet? I see no reason for God to be inconsistent.

Bro-Larry
07-12-2008, 09:16 PM
Did you read what I posted? I asked a question not made an assertion

You're right, Bro, I'm sorry

Sam
07-12-2008, 09:33 PM
Bro Sam, Bro Scott, If God would not answer Saul by dreams of by Urim, or by the [live] prophets (vv.6), tell me why would He answer Saul by a dead prophet? I see no reason for God to be inconsistant.

This is something beyond my understanding. I don't know why God did what He did, but the way I read it, He brought Samuel (either in person or in a vision) from the dead. Possibly this was what later happened on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-8). Afterward, Jesus said, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead" (verse 9).

Did Samuel literally come to the witch or did Moses and Elijah literally come to the Mount of Transfiguration? or were these visions? I honestly don't know.

Bro-Larry
07-12-2008, 09:44 PM
Did you get this thought from a source or is it your own?
Bro Larry

BK, now that I've had time to think on this question a while, I remember a brother named Jim Thorpe, we both went to V Arlen Guidroz's church in N Dallas, back in the eighties. He had been involved in some seances , prior to his conversion. I got this insight partally from discussions with him. The mediums and channelers knew that they were not calling up the real spirits of the departed, they were just deceiving their clients to get their money.

Bro-Larry
07-12-2008, 09:55 PM
This is something beyond my understanding. I don't know why God did what He did, but the way I read it, He brought Samuel (either in person or in a vision) from the dead. Possibly this was what later happened on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-8). Afterward, Jesus said, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead" (verse 9).

Did Samuel literally come to the witch or did Moses and Elijah literally come to the Mount of Transfiguration? or were these visions? I honestly don't know.

BINGO!! No, Samuel did not come to the witch in literal bodily form, because the witch was the only one who could see "Samuel". Saul had to ask her what she saw. The only ones there in physical form were the witch and Saul's party.

The question is: "was it the real spirit of Samuel or a "familiar spirit" masqurading as his spirit?"

Timmy
07-12-2008, 10:14 PM
Yet another scripture that doesn't mean what it says, Bro Larry?

Bro-Larry
07-12-2008, 10:16 PM
This is something beyond my understanding. I don't know why God did what He did, but the way I read it, He brought Samuel (either in person or in a vision) from the dead. Possibly this was what later happened on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-8). Afterward, Jesus said, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead" (verse 9).

Did Samuel literally come to the witch or did Moses and Elijah literally come to the Mount of Transfiguration? or were these visions? I honestly don't know.

This discussion is similar to one on Esther's 27 questions thread.

She asked , "how did the devil tempt Jesus?" The more I've thought on it, the more interesting the question has become.

The text says the devil took Jesus to the temple and set him on the pinnicle. Did he take Jesus there, in body, or in a spiritual vision?

If "in body?" Did he just wisk Jesus away physically, from Galilee to Jesusalem? or did Jesus walk or use some other mode of travel, like ride a donkey? Did Jesus climb the exceeding high mountain? All at the devil's suggestion? I don't think so. Jesus was non co-opperative with the devil. He would not jump off the temple. He would not make bread out of stones. He would not fall down and worship him.

I say the evidence points to a spiritual vision or dream, etc. There is no question that the Transfiguration of Jesus was a spiritual vision.

Bro-Larry
07-12-2008, 10:25 PM
Yet another scripture that doesn't mean what it says, Bro Larry?

What do you think, Timmy? Does the devil have the power to pick up Jesus' in bodily form, and set him down on top of the temple?

Praxeas
07-13-2008, 01:19 AM
Why would the person who wrote this text mislead us? It never said familiar spirit. It never informs us "but this was not really samuel"

In fact

1Sa 28:14 He said to her, "What is his appearance?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.

The narrater of 1Sam said "And Saul KNEW that it was Samuel". Why didn't he write instead "And Saul THOUGHT that it was Samuel".

The context, along with the witches shock shows that it was the real deal. It never would normally happen like this. That is what shocked the witch. Further more, the spirit told the truth to Saul. Why would the familiar spirit speak the words of Jehovah to Saul and not rather some other message?

I think this was a case of God allowing Samuel to be raised for one last rebuke. She did not have that power herself.

Timmy
07-13-2008, 07:53 AM
What do you think, Timmy? Does the devil have the power to pick up Jesus' in bodily form, and set him down on top of the temple?

If I believed the Bible was God's word, I would believe what it says.

Bro-Larry
07-13-2008, 09:02 AM
Do we have any scriptural example, exhibiting the devil's alleged power to "catch away", "to rapture", "to wisk away" or "to translate a physical human body to another location"?

Sister Alvear
07-13-2008, 09:08 AM
Samuel and Saul has been a question long debated...
I don´t think the witch had that kind of power...yet God could have done it but it would seem like if He did it would go against His own word in other places...I have thought about this often...and am reading your all´s opinions...

Bro-Larry
07-13-2008, 09:17 AM
Samuel and Saul has been a question long debated...
I don´t think the witch had that kind of power...yet God could have done it but it would seem like if He did it would go against His own word in other places...I have thought about this often...and am reading your all´s opinions...

There you have it folks! Mother Alvear agrees with Bro-Larry ....uhh...sort of.. :tease Thank you Sis A for your support.

pelathais
07-13-2008, 09:31 AM
Super Wal Mart.
You know I wondered about that. The usual old lady was there offering a free sampling of Beanies & Wienies when this terrible apparition of the undead leapt up from her little crockpot and compelled me to buy the seedless watermelon at $7 each.

At least that's what I told my wife was the reason behind me spending so much on a watermelon.

pelathais
07-13-2008, 09:34 AM
Do we have any scriptural example, exhibiting the devil's alleged power to "catch away", "to rapture", "to wisk away" or "to translate a physical human body to another location"?
Who says it was "the devil" that caused the seance manifiestion in question? Maybe people have the knack? Or maybe "the dead" really do get "restless?"

Or maybe it was just a trick of the light and Saul's desperate emotional condition that brought it all on, but the lessons learned were important enough to be preserved?

Bro-Larry
07-13-2008, 01:48 PM
"Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God." Lev. 19:31, KJV

"So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. But he did not inquire of the LORD; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse." I Chr. 10:13-14.

Do any of you really think that God would involve Himself in any of this kind of thing?

Praxeas
07-13-2008, 01:54 PM
Samuel and Saul has been a question long debated...
I don´t think the witch had that kind of power...yet God could have done it but it would seem like if He did it would go against His own word in other places...I have thought about this often...and am reading your all´s opinions...

There you have it folks! Mother Alvear agrees with Bro-Larry ....uhh...sort of.. :tease Thank you Sis A for your support.
Did God go against His word when Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus in the Transfiguration?

Praxeas
07-13-2008, 01:57 PM
"Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God." Lev. 19:31, KJV

"So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. But he did not inquire of the LORD; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse." I Chr. 10:13-14.

Do any of you really think that God would involve Himself in any of this kind of thing?
God did not go seeking a wizard or those that have familiar spirits in this case.

As for the verse in 1Chr...Saul did NOT go inquire of the LORD. HE inquired of a Medium...and? that does not prove that the LORD raised up Samuel.

1Corinth2v4
07-13-2008, 03:14 PM
I actually started a similar thread on CAF regarding Saul and the witch of Endor.


Here's what I find interesting:


Saul had issued a decree of slaughtering those with familiar spirits, etc. These familiar spirits are able to relay or foretell information.

If this conjured spirit wasn't Samuel and just a familiar spirit, why didn't the familiar spirit warn the witch that Saul would soon approach her in disguise?
Remember these witches were being persecuted, and it would only seem logical that if this was a familiar spirit, it would have warned the witch of impending danger, mainly Saul's soon arrival.


Samuel 28

8) And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

9) And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

Bro-Larry
07-13-2008, 03:15 PM
Did God go against His word when Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus in the Transfiguration?

You got sa' mo' splanin" to do Prax. I don't get it?

Bro-Larry
07-13-2008, 03:21 PM
I believe what the Bible says, and it says that Samuel was speaking to Saul. I am not into rewriting the Word of God to suit my thoughts on what should or shouldn't be. Once we start changing what the Word of God says there's no stopping the editing. Very dangerous ground to build on.

Are you saying that it's wrong to compare different versions? Which version is the right one?

Praxeas
07-13-2008, 03:25 PM
You got sa' mo' splanin" to do Prax. I don't get it?
God can raise Samuel. If Moses and Elijah can appear from the dead then so can Samuel

Bro-Larry
07-13-2008, 03:26 PM
If I believed the Bible was God's word, I would believe what it says.

Timmy, if you believed the Bible was God's word, which version would you believe?

Bro-Larry
07-13-2008, 03:32 PM
God can raise Samuel. If Moses and Elijah can appear from the dead then so can Samuel

There's no question in my mind that God can, I only questioned whether the devil can. Since he is a deceiver, everything he does is a fake.

Since God told us not to meddle in the devil's junk, I don't think God would involve himself in the devil's junk either.

Timmy
07-13-2008, 03:33 PM
Timmy, if you believed the Bible was God's word, which version would you believe?

Excellent question. I would prefer to believe the original manuscripts. But, alas, they are all gone. I'd have no choice but to trust the scholars and translators who have researched the copies and fragments of copies that we have. But which scholars? That's the question. I dunno. Your guess is as good as mine.

Is there a version that has a better translation of the witch of Endor story than the KJV?

Bro-Larry
07-13-2008, 03:42 PM
God can raise Samuel. If Moses and Elijah can appear from the dead then so can Samuel

True, but Moses and Elijah did not appear in bodily form. That was a spiritual vision.

In the case of the witch at En-Dor, I just don't think God had a thing to do with that event.

Praxeas
07-13-2008, 03:45 PM
There's no question in my mind that God can, I only questioned whether the devil can. Since he is a deceiver, everything he does is a fake.

Since God told us not to meddle in the devil's junk, I don't think God would involve himself in the devil's junk either.
I did not see anyone suggesting the witch did that. They were saying God did it

Bro-Larry
07-13-2008, 03:45 PM
Excellent question. I would prefer to believe the original manuscripts. But, alas, they are all gone. I'd have no choice but to trust the scholars and translators who have researched the copies and fragments of copies that we have. But which scholars? That's the question. I dunno. Your guess is as good as mine.

Is there a version that has a better translation of the witch of Endor story than the KJV?

Your guess is as good as mine.

Praxeas
07-13-2008, 03:47 PM
True, but Moses and Elijah did not appear in bodily form. That was a spiritual vision.

In the case of the witch at En-Dor, I just don't think God had a thing to do with that event.
In the case of En-Dor Samuel was not any more in a bodily form either. Only the witch could see and she described him as a god coming up out of the earth. She was genuinely shocked at what she got. She was not expecting the real Samuel. She did not do anything you see. But as I pointed out before the narrator never says they thought it was Samuel. Never said it was not really Samuel but a familiar spirit. Never corrected the situtation. Thus the context shows it was really Samuel. We know the witch has not the power to do that. God raised up Samuel for one last rebuke of Saul

Steve Epley
07-13-2008, 04:00 PM
True, but Moses and Elijah did not appear in bodily form. That was a spiritual vision.

In the case of the witch at En-Dor, I just don't think God had a thing to do with that event.

ME either.

Bro-Larry
07-13-2008, 04:16 PM
ME either.

Thank you kind sir. :highfive

Bro-Larry
07-13-2008, 04:19 PM
In the case of En-Dor Samuel was not any more in a bodily form either. Only the witch could see and she described him as a god coming up out of the earth. She was genuinely shocked at what she got. She was not expecting the real Samuel. She did not do anything you see. But as I pointed out before the narrator never says they thought it was Samuel. Never said it was not really Samuel but a familiar spirit. Never corrected the situtation. Thus the context shows it was really Samuel. We know the witch has not the power to do that. God raised up Samuel for one last rebuke of Saul

Prax, If it really was Samuel, then Saul must have been saved.

1Corinth2v4
07-13-2008, 04:20 PM
God raised up Samuel for one last rebuke of Saul


Well, I also see a problem with your view of "one last rebuke."


Note what Saul said in 1 Samuel 28:6:

6) And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.


Is it your belief this witch of Endor thwarted the will of God by conjuring Samuel, that Saul might speak with a prophet of God, against the will of God?

Remember, God had excommunicated Saul and refrained advising Saul through any prophet. Why would God contradict himself by advising Saul through a dead PROPHET?

Bro-Larry
07-13-2008, 04:25 PM
Well, I also see a problem with your view of "one last rebuke."


Note what Saul said in 1 Samuel 28:6:

6) And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.


Is it your belief this witch of Endor thwarted the will of God by conjuring Samuel, that Saul might speak with a prophet of God, against the will of God?

Remember, God had excommunicated Saul and refrained advising Saul through any prophet. Why would God contradict himself by advising Saul through a dead PROPHET?


True. (see post # 23)

Timmy
07-13-2008, 04:26 PM
Prax, If it really was Samuel, then Saul must have been saved.

Every English version on BibleGateway.com says, in v 15, that Samuel spoke to Saul. What's the LCFV (Larry's Contradiction Free Version) going to say? Give us a sneak preview! :)

1Corinth2v4
07-13-2008, 04:30 PM
True. (see post # 23)

Sorry......I didn't read through the entire thread.

Praxeas
07-13-2008, 04:33 PM
Prax, If it really was Samuel, then Saul must have been saved.
why do you say that?

Praxeas
07-13-2008, 04:38 PM
Well, I also see a problem with your view of "one last rebuke."


Note what Saul said in 1 Samuel 28:6:

6) And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

Saul inquired of the LORD for help and the LORD did not answer him when he inquired. So then later when he sought through a Medium Samuel came up and rebuked him.

Is it your belief this witch of Endor thwarted the will of God by conjuring Samuel, that Saul might speak with a prophet of God, against the will of God?
It is my believe the witch did NOTHING. As I have said several times now the witch did not raise Samuel. God did it. The previous verse only says The LORD did not answer him. It does not say the LORD would never answer him.

Remember, God had excommunicated Saul and refrained advising Saul through any prophet. Why would God contradict himself by advising Saul through a dead PROPHET?
God never said or declared he would never address Saul in any manner.

Additionally, if this was not Samuel WHY would he rebuke Saul? Why would a false spirit speak the truth and rebuke Saul?

Praxeas
07-13-2008, 04:47 PM
Look at what it says, not once does the text inform us this was NOT really Samuel. Not once does it say they merely THOUGHT it was Samuel. Not once does the text correct the situation to inform us this was just her familiar spirit.

1Sa 28:11 Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up Samuel for me."
1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul."
Why did she cry out? What was unusual about this than any other time?

1Sa 28:13 The king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a god coming up out of the earth."
1Sa 28:14 He said to her, "What is his appearance?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.
Why does the narrator say Saul KNEW it was Samuel and not Saul THOUGHT it was Samuel?

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Saul answered, "I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do."
Why does the writer here not say "the familiar spirit said ot Saul"?

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?
Would a lying spirit really say this? Would not the spirit attempt to deceive Saul and give him the information he hoped to attain about attacking the philistines?

1Sa 28:17 The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me, for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David.
He confirms what was already said to Saul by Samuel before he died.

1Sa 28:18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day.
He reminds Saul why the LORD has turned his back on Saul. He is confirming Samuels previous rebuke to Soul

1Sa 28:19 Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines."
He gives a prophecy. Did this come true? Was this a lying spirit prophesying in the name of the LORD and coming true????

1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night.
The narrator of the story speaks again. Notice this is not the witch speaking or Saul. This is the person that wrote the book of Samuel. So he has this opportunity to say "because of the words of the familiar spirit" but consistently the narrator in his own words calls this Samuel

ReformedDave
07-13-2008, 04:56 PM
Look at what it says, not once does the text inform us this was NOT really Samuel. Not once does it say they merely THOUGHT it was Samuel. Not once does the text correct the situation to inform us this was just her familiar spirit.

1Sa 28:11 Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up Samuel for me."
1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul."
Why did she cry out? What was unusual about this than any other time?
1Sa 28:13 The king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a god coming up out of the earth."
1Sa 28:14 He said to her, "What is his appearance?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.
Why does the narrator say Saul KNEW it was Samuel and not Saul THOUGHT it was Samuel?

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Saul answered, "I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do."
Why does the writer here not say "the familiar spirit said ot Saul"?

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?
Would a lying spirit really say this? Would not the spirit attempt to deceive Saul and give him the information he hoped to attain about attacking the philistines?

1Sa 28:17 The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me, for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David.
He confirms what was already said to Saul by Samuel before he died.

1Sa 28:18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day.
He reminds Saul why the LORD has turned his back on Saul. He is confirming Samuels previous rebuke to Soul

1Sa 28:19 Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines."
He gives a prophecy. Did this come true? Was this a lying spirit prophesying in the name of the LORD and coming true????

1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night.
The narrator of the story speaks again. Notice this is not the witch speaking or Saul. This is the person that wrote the book of Samuel. So he has this opportunity to say "because of the words of the familiar spirit" but consistently the narrator in his own words calls this Samuel


Good logical sense means nothing here. Some will subjectively change what the Scripture says or just plan deny it without any manuscript evidence at all. "I don't agree so it must be wrong".

Praxeas
07-13-2008, 04:59 PM
Good logical sense means nothing here. Some will subjectively change what the Scripture says or just plan deny it without any manuscript evidence at all. "I don't agree so it must be wrong".
true. Thanks Dave

1Corinth2v4
07-13-2008, 05:28 PM
It is my believe the witch did NOTHING. As I have said several times now the witch did not raise Samuel. God did it.

Actually the bible reads the witch conjured (to summon a devil or spirit by invocation or incantation) Samuel.

1 Samuel 28:11
"Whom should I conjure up for you?" the woman asked. "Conjure up Samuel for me," he answered


Bring Up/Conjure: (aw-law') A primitive root; to ascend, iarise (up), (cause to) ascend up, bring (up), shoot forth (up), (begin to) spring (up), stir up, take away (up), work.




God never said or declared he would never address Saul in any manner.


God rejected advising Saul through Samuel while alive, how is Samuel's death any different? What God had determined while Samuel lives was in effect after Samuel's death.

1 Samuel 15
29) He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."



Also, if you remove the italics, here's what the scripture reads:

1 Chr 10:13 (without italics)
So Saul died his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking of a familiar spirit, to inquire;


1 Chr 10:13 (with italics)
So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;




Additionally, if this was not Samuel WHY would he rebuke Saul? Why would a false spirit speak the truth and rebuke Saul?


Expound on the rebuke.

Praxeas
07-13-2008, 05:37 PM
Actually the bible reads the witch conjured (to summon a devil or spirit by invocation or incantation) Samuel.

1 Samuel 28:11
"Whom should I conjure up for you?" the woman asked. "Conjure up Samuel for me," he answered


Bring Up/Conjure: (aw-law') A primitive root; to ascend, iarise (up), (cause to) ascend up, bring (up), shoot forth (up), (begin to) spring (up), stir up, take away (up), work.
No it reads "whom should I conjure up for you"..it does not read "the witch conjured up Samuel", which begs the question of my other post you did not address. Why was she shocked at the results?


God rejected advising Saul through Samuel while alive, how is Samuel's death any different? What God had determined while Samuel lives was in effect after Samuel's death.

1 Samuel 15
29) He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."
What verse are you referring to where God says He will never again speak to Saul through Samuel?



Also, if you remove the italics, here's what the scripture reads:

1 Chr 10:13 (without italics)
So Saul died his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking of a familiar spirit, to inquire;

We all agree Saul sought after a Medium with a Familiar spirit. That does not mean that was the result he got. In fact the text implies it was something entirely different

Praxeas
07-13-2008, 05:37 PM
Look at what it says, not once does the text inform us this was NOT really Samuel. Not once does it say they merely THOUGHT it was Samuel. Not once does the text correct the situation to inform us this was just her familiar spirit.

1Sa 28:11 Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up Samuel for me."
1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul."
Why did she cry out? What was unusual about this than any other time?

1Sa 28:13 The king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a god coming up out of the earth."
1Sa 28:14 He said to her, "What is his appearance?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.
Why does the narrator say Saul KNEW it was Samuel and not Saul THOUGHT it was Samuel?

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Saul answered, "I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do."
Why does the writer here not say "the familiar spirit said ot Saul"?

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?
Would a lying spirit really say this? Would not the spirit attempt to deceive Saul and give him the information he hoped to attain about attacking the philistines?

1Sa 28:17 The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me, for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David.
He confirms what was already said to Saul by Samuel before he died.

1Sa 28:18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day.
He reminds Saul why the LORD has turned his back on Saul. He is confirming Samuels previous rebuke to Soul

1Sa 28:19 Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines."
He gives a prophecy. Did this come true? Was this a lying spirit prophesying in the name of the LORD and coming true????

1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night.
The narrator of the story speaks again. Notice this is not the witch speaking or Saul. This is the person that wrote the book of Samuel. So he has this opportunity to say "because of the words of the familiar spirit" but consistently the narrator in his own words calls this Samuel
Bump

Rico
07-13-2008, 05:45 PM
Are you saying that it's wrong to compare different versions? Which version is the right one?

What I'm saying, Larry, is that you have a tendency to rewrite what God is saying in His Word to suit what you think. I've seen you do this on more than one topic. The Bible says it was Samuel speaking to Saul. Instead of taking God's Word at face value, you want to come along and say it wasn't Samuel speaking, but the familiar spirit. The Bible doesn't say that. It says it was Samuel. In order to say it wasn't Samuel, you have to edit the Word to fit what you think it's saying. That, my friend, is dangerous ground to build on. Feel free to edit the Word of God to your heart's content, Larry. Far be it from me to tell you to stop. Don't expect me to go along with it, however.

1Corinth2v4
07-13-2008, 05:55 PM
No it reads "whom should I conjure up for you"..it does not read "the witch conjured up Samuel", which begs the question of my other post you did not address. Why was she shocked at the results?


As you stated above, it reads "whom should I conjure up for you." My question, who is stating they're willing to conjure a spirit?

Also, the witch became frightened after discovering it was Saul who petitioned her. As I stated earlier, Saul had issued a decree to destroy all witches, etc.



What verse are you referring to where God says He will never again speak to Saul through Samuel?

1 Samuel 15:29- God refused to converse with Saul any longer. God wouldn't have changed his mind.


We all agree Saul sought after a Medium with a Familiar spirit. That does not mean that was the result he got. In fact the text implies it was something entirely different


If you remove the italics, the scripture plainly reads Saul with communicating with a familiar spirit.

Bro-Larry
07-13-2008, 06:14 PM
Every English version on BibleGateway.com says, in v 15, that Samuel spoke to Saul. What's the LCFV (Larry's Contradiction Free Version) going to say? Give us a sneak preview! :)

LCFV says: "If the KJV says, 'that Samuel spoke to Saul, then the familiar spirit was named Samuel'."


:whistle:whistle:whistle:whistle:whistle:whistle:w histle:whistle:whistle

Timmy
07-13-2008, 06:48 PM
LCFV says: "If the KJV says, 'that Samuel spoke to Saul, then the familiar spirit was named Samuel'."


:whistle:whistle:whistle:whistle:whistle:whistle:w histle:whistle:whistle

:lol

Bro-Larry
07-13-2008, 10:03 PM
why do you say that?

I was checking to see how closely you read. The alleged Samuel said to Saul, "Tomorrow you and your sons will be with me."
If it was a fake Samuel them either it was lying or Saul was probably lost. If it was the real Samuel, then probably Saul was OK. But the devil lies about everything, so you really can't tell for sure.

:evilglee:evilglee:evilglee:crazy:crazy:aaa:aaa

Bro-Larry
07-13-2008, 10:12 PM
What I'm saying, Larry, is that you have a tendency to rewrite what God is saying in His Word to suit what you think. I've seen you do this on more than one topic. The Bible says it was Samuel speaking to Saul. Instead of taking God's Word at face value, you want to come along and say it wasn't Samuel speaking, but the familiar spirit. The Bible doesn't say that. It says it was Samuel. In order to say it wasn't Samuel, you have to edit the Word to fit what you think it's saying. That, my friend, is dangerous ground to build on. Feel free to edit the Word of God to your heart's content, Larry. Far be it from me to tell you to stop. Don't expect me to go along with it, however.

Please point out, my friend Rico, precisely where Bro-Larry edited the Word.

Rico
07-13-2008, 10:14 PM
Please point out, my friend Rico, precisely where Bro-Larry edited the Word.

This is hilarious. You are doing it on this thread. The Bible says Samuel spoke to Saul and you are saying it wasn't Samuel. :snapout

ReformedDave
07-13-2008, 10:14 PM
Please point out, my friend Rico, precisely where Bro-Larry edited the Word.

BL, you have told me several times where you didn't believe the translation was correct but you offer no proof.

Bro-Larry
07-13-2008, 10:22 PM
BL, you have told me several times where you didn't believe the translation was correct but you offer no proof.

Dave, You are paraphrasing what you think I said.

ReformedDave
07-13-2008, 10:26 PM
Dave, You are paraphrasing what you think I said.

Should I dig up the posts?????

Bro-Larry
07-13-2008, 11:10 PM
Should I dig up the posts?????

Go ahead, you won't find where I said those exact words.

:snapout :club

Praxeas
07-13-2008, 11:42 PM
I was checking to see how closely you read. The alleged Samuel said to Saul, "Tomorrow you and your sons will be with me."
If it was a fake Samuel them either it was lying or Saul was probably lost. If it was the real Samuel, then probably Saul was OK. But the devil lies about everything, so you really can't tell for sure.

:evilglee:evilglee:evilglee:crazy:crazy:aaa:aaa
why would he have to be saved? they all went to the place of the grave, not heaven.

Praxeas
07-13-2008, 11:43 PM
Larry and others, can you respond to this post?
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=527789&postcount=61

Baron1710
07-14-2008, 07:04 AM
And Samuel said to Saul,Why hast thou disquited me,to bring me up ? And Saul answered I am sore distressed;for the Phillistines to make war agains't me,and God is departed from me,and answereth no more,neither by prophets,nor by dreams,therefore I have called thee,that thou make known unto me what I shall do. 1.SAM.28:15
OK we know the familiar account how Saul contacted a woman from En-dor with a familiar spirit to contact Samuel see 1 Samuel 28.
My question is where was Samuel when he was contacted,what was he in sheol a place of departed spirits awaiting a resurrection,just where was Samuel resting ? Was he in soul sleep ?


Sometimes the Bible contains lies and nothing is done by the author to correct them. It is my view that when the Scripture contains a statement that is not recording someone else's thought or words then it must be accepted as true even if it doesn't fit our theology. I must accept that it was Samuel. I can't explain it but I don't need to.

I have included an example that I believe is evidence of this. I believe the narrative account of Saul's death is correct and the Bible's accurate recording of someone's words are in fact a lie.

I Samuel 31:4
4 Saul said to his armor-bearer, "Draw your sword and run me through, or these uncircumcised fellows will come and run me through and abuse me."
But his armor-bearer was terrified and would not do it; so Saul took his own sword and fell on it.

II Samuel 1:6-10

6 "I happened to be on Mount Gilboa," the young man said, "and there was Saul, leaning on his spear, with the chariots and riders almost upon him.
7 When he turned around and saw me, he called out to me, and I said, 'What can I do?'
8 "He asked me, 'Who are you?'
" 'An Amalekite,' I answered.
9 "Then he said to me, 'Stand over me and kill me! I am in the throes of death, but I'm still alive.'
10 "So I stood over him and killed him, because I knew that after he had fallen he could not survive. And I took the crown that was on his head and the band on his arm and have brought them here to my lord."

ReformedDave
07-14-2008, 07:34 AM
Go ahead, you won't find where I said those exact words.

:snapout :club

Larry here you go-

I said- "So when scripture states that God hardened pharoah's heart God didn't really mean that?"

Larry said- "That's exactly right! Not only did God not mean that, He did not say that.
The translators just thought He did. "

Larry, what proof do you have that the translators corrupted the text?

Bro-Larry
07-14-2008, 09:18 PM
Larry here you go-

I said- "So when scripture states that God hardened pharoah's heart God didn't really mean that?"

Larry said- "That's exactly right! Not only did God not mean that, He did not say that.
The translators just thought He did. "

Larry, what proof do you have that the translators corrupted the text?

Here's your exact post, which I copied and pasted. (C&P can't be wrong.) :tease Which, does not match any of the above posts.
Reformed Dave"s post # 74.

"BL, you have told me several times where you didn't believe the translation was correct but you offer no proof"

ReformedDave
07-14-2008, 09:24 PM
Here's your exact post, which I copied and pasted. (C&P can't be wrong.) :tease Which, does not match any of the above posts.
Reformed Dave"s post # 74.

"BL, you have told me several times where you didn't believe the translation was correct but you offer no proof"

Larry you try to side step but you still make accusatory statements that the Scripture was mis-translated but you can offer no proof. When you disregard portions of Scripture simply because you cannot make them fit in your mind you become the judge and God is in the dock.

Timmy
07-15-2008, 08:48 AM
Larry you try to side step but you still make accusatory statements that the Scripture was mis-translated but you can offer no proof. When you disregard portions of Scripture simply because you cannot make them fit in your mind you become the judge and God is in the dock.

I can understand Larry's dilemma. Everyone sees the contradictions in the Bible (and they're not just in the KJV), and there are different ways of responding to them. When some see contradictions, their choice is to call them "apparent" contradictions and try to explain them away. Larry's choice is to assume the translators goofed. My choice ... well, you know what my choice is! :lol