Who then can be lost?

[Steve Epley]

Jesus after teaching was asked "Who then can be saved." Mt.19:25 But on AFF then question is who can be lost. Baptism not essential, tongues a maybe, suck cigarettes and have the HGB, church attendance optional, no tithe paying, pastor is an abomination. Nothing is essential and anything is okay. It is impossible to be lost.

[stmatthew]

Jesus after teaching was asked "Who then can be saved." Mt.19:25 But on AFF then question is who can be lost. Baptism not essential, tongues a maybe, suck cigarettes and have the HGB, church attendance optional, no tithe paying, pastor is an abomination. Nothing is essential and anything is okay. It is impossible to be lost.

Elder, I am reading the handwritting on the wall, and it says.....


Carlton Pearson was here











:tease


:ursofunny

[Carpenter]

Jesus after teaching was asked "Who then can be saved." Mt.19:25 But on AFF then question is who can be lost. Baptism not essential, tongues a maybe, suck cigarettes and have the HGB, church attendance optional, no tithe paying, pastor is an abomination. Nothing is essential and anything is okay. It is impossible to be lost.

Brother Epley, the way I look at it is that we are ALL spirutally and morally bankrupt. We all are lost. But for the Grace of God. At least that is how I feel about myself.

I choose not to engage in sin because it separates my communion with the Lord and the preservation of my family, not because an organization says this or that is a sin. I cannot rely on the moral foundations of any group that has preservation as its foremost priority.

I want to please God, but I know in my flesh, there is absolutely no way.


...sounds kind of counterintuitive doesn't it?

[Ron]

Elder, you are too old fashioned and exclusive!
My God is big enough for every one!

Why there will probably be Hindus there after thier third or fourth reincarnation!:D

[Monkeyman]

Jesus after teaching was asked "Who then can be saved." Mt.19:25 But on AFF then question is who can be lost. Baptism not essential, tongues a maybe, suck cigarettes and have the HGB, church attendance optional, no tithe paying, pastor is an abomination. Nothing is essential and anything is okay. It is impossible to be lost.You forgot, booze at communion.....oops...sorry elder for meddling:tease

Love ya man!

[RandyWayne]

Some people can't handle their sacred cows challenged. To say that someone who smoked my -be saved, is met with a mighty "so all Muslims and followers of mighty Isis are as well huh?!" rebuke.

[Rico]

Jesus after teaching was asked "Who then can be saved." Mt.19:25 But on AFF then question is who can be lost. Baptism not essential, tongues a maybe, suck cigarettes and have the HGB, church attendance optional, no tithe paying, pastor is an abomination. Nothing is essential and anything is okay. It is impossible to be lost.


Based on your posts, everyone is lost but that small group of people who line up with your beliefs. Congratulations. You've arrived.

[Monkeyman]

I do know this...after reading numerous threads around here, the straight and narrow ain't so straight and narrow no more! It's a big fun wide yellow brick road with room for EVERYONE!

[TRFrance]

Jesus after teaching was asked "Who then can be saved." Mt.19:25 But on AFF then question is who can be lost. Baptism not essential, tongues a maybe, suck cigarettes and have the HGB, church attendance optional, no tithe paying, pastor is an abomination. Nothing is essential and anything is okay. It is impossible to be lost.
Makes you wonder how long before the "gospel of inclusion" ,preached by Carlton Pearson and others, starts creeping into Apostolic churches.

[stmatthew]

I do know this...after reading numerous threads around here, the straight and narrow ain't so straight and narrow no more! It's a big fun wide yellow brick road with room for EVERYONE!

And they are all off to see the wizard!!

[stmatthew]

Elder, I am reading the handwritting on the wall, and it says.....


Carlton Pearson was here











:tease


:ursofunny

Makes you wonder how long before the "gospel of inclusion" ,preached by Carlton Pearson and others, starts creeping into Apostolic churches.


My wit was wasted. :tissue

[Monkeyman]

Well, I won't be casting stones at anyone, but, I have found out through time that the older I get, the smarter my folks become....I'll stick to their faith and guidance and hope for the best...I got too many roots to pull them up and question them now! If I'm wrong, oh well, I stayed inside the safety barrier for nothing! But if I'm right......:)

[stmatthew]

Well, I won't be casting stones at anyone, but, I have found out through time that the older I get, the smarter my folks become....I'll stick to their faith and guidance and hope for the best...I got too many roots to pull them up and question them now! If I'm wrong, oh well, I stayed inside the safety barrier for nothing!

I heard one preacher say it this way....


"I would rather get to the Pearly Gates with a full bucket and have Peter tell me that I have to empty some out than to get there will only half a bucket full and not have enough to get in"

[Baron1710]

Jesus after teaching was asked "Who then can be saved." Mt.19:25 But on AFF then question is who can be lost. Baptism not essential, tongues a maybe, suck cigarettes and have the HGB, church attendance optional, no tithe paying, pastor is an abomination. Nothing is essential and anything is okay. It is impossible to be lost.

Just goes to show some people are asking the wrong questions.

[Rico]

I heard one preacher say it this way....


"I would rather get to the Pearly Gates with a full bucket and have Peter tell me that I have to empty some out than to get there will only half a bucket full and not have enough to get in"

Translation: I believe in works based salvation, so I need to make sure I do enough works so that I am doing too much works so I am not doing too little works and can't work my way into Heaven.

[Hoovie]

Well, I won't be casting stones at anyone, but, I have found out through time that the older I get, the smarter my folks become....I'll stick to their faith and guidance and hope for the best...I got too many roots to pull them up and question them now! If I'm wrong, oh well, I stayed inside the safety barrier for nothing! But if I'm right......:)

I heard one preacher say it this way....


"I would rather get to the Pearly Gates with a full bucket and have Peter tell me that I have to empty some out than to get there will only half a bucket full and not have enough to get in"

IT GETS COMPLICATED!

The middle aged folks often tighten there positions and draw on the faith they were taught by there own parents...

...meanwhile many of those parents, now have mellowed some and wish they had not been so hard nosed...

:whistle

[Ferd]

Jesus after teaching was asked "Who then can be saved." Mt.19:25 But on AFF then question is who can be lost. Baptism not essential, tongues a maybe, suck cigarettes and have the HGB, church attendance optional, no tithe paying, pastor is an abomination. Nothing is essential and anything is okay. It is impossible to be lost.

Oh good grief. everybody knows only hitler and osma bin ladin are lost!

[Hoovie]

Translation: I believe in works based salvation, so I need to make sure I do enough works so that I am doing too much works so I am not doing too little works and can't work my way into Heaven.

Well he did not say what was in that bucket... if it is anything other than the faith in the shed blood of Christ, then it's gonna take alot more than a bucket full!

[Ron]

Oh good grief. everybody knows only hitler and osma bin ladin are lost!

Hitler was just misunderstood!:whistle

[Timmy]

Oh good grief. everybody knows only hitler and osma bin ladin are lost!

Oh, haven't you heard? Osama got the baptism! (At least, last time I saw one of his videos, it sounded like tongues, to me. :lol)

[bkstokes]

Judgement is the LORD's! We are to seek out OUR OWN salvation with fear and trembling. However, it is not based on works. It is based on faith in Jesus Christ that produces a Christ like life.

[Rico]

Judgement is the LORD's! We are to seek out OUR OWN salvation with fear and trembling. However, it is not based on works. It is based on faith in Jesus Christ that produces a Christ like life.

The way I read the Bible, our faith leads us to good works. From what I have gathered from others' posts around here, they have it backwards. Their works lead them to their faith.

[CC1]

Jesus after teaching was asked "Who then can be saved." Mt.19:25 But on AFF then question is who can be lost. Baptism not essential, tongues a maybe, suck cigarettes and have the HGB, church attendance optional, no tithe paying, pastor is an abomination. Nothing is essential and anything is okay. It is impossible to be lost.


Those who have not repented of their sins and accepted Christ as their Lord and saviour will be lost.

The Bible says there is only one way and that is through Christ.

All pathways do NOT lead to heaven.

[bkstokes]

The way I read the Bible, our faith leads us to good works. From what I have gathered from others' posts around here, they have it backwards. Their works lead them to their faith.

Yes

I believe that this happens when people focus on the outside more than the heart. Paul writes about this in Col 3.

[Maple Leaf]

Jesus after teaching was asked "Who then can be saved." Mt.19:25 But on AFF then question is who can be lost. Baptism not essential, tongues a maybe, suck cigarettes and have the HGB, church attendance optional, no tithe paying, pastor is an abomination. Nothing is essential and anything is okay. It is impossible to be lost.

Baptism is essential for every believer.

Tongues are a normal part of the believer's experience.

Cigarettes and gluttony are vices that grace leaves behind.

Forsaking the assembling is a sure way to lose your way.

The sacred tenth is God's plan for blessing.

Pastor's are an abomination to Egyptians and goats.

The Law of the Lord is perfect and the wise walk in all its ways.

It is possible to be lost. If you pursue salvation by works after you've been justified by faith in Christ, you will fall from grace and be lost.

If every issue of Christian discipleship is Heaven or Hell in its consequence, what is the purpose of the Judgment Seat of Christ.

[Jermyn Davidson]

The love of many shall wax cold. Without love, they will be lost.

There will be those who do not love the truth. These delusional folks, the Bible says, will be lost.

There will be those who claim the name of Jesus Christ and will still be lost.

So on the contrary, there will be those who will be lost. I don't believe like I used to believe, but I still do believe. Being aware of the above Biblical assertions and my own life issues, I pray for God's mercy.

I am convinced it will by His GRACE only that I will obtain everlasting life.

At this point, I realize that without His GRACE, I don't stand a chance in Heaven.

[mizpeh]

If every issue of Christian discipleship is Heaven or Hell in its consequence, what is the purpose of the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Would you elaborate on this a little, please?

[U376977]

Jesus after teaching was asked "Who then can be saved." Mt.19:25 But on AFF then question is who can be lost. Baptism not essential, tongues a maybe, suck cigarettes and have the HGB, church attendance optional, no tithe paying, pastor is an abomination. Nothing is essential and anything is okay. It is impossible to be lost.

Who then can be lost? Our Lord said, "Many." I think this verse means many more will be lost than saved. Even Carlton and his damnable doctrine will deceive many all the way to hell. Some think they can steal a horse and ride it to heaven.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:" (Matt. 7:13).

[Hoovie]

Jesus after teaching was asked "Who then can be saved." Mt.19:25 But on AFF then question is who can be lost. Baptism not essential, tongues a maybe, suck cigarettes and have the HGB, church attendance optional, no tithe paying, pastor is an abomination. Nothing is essential and anything is okay. It is impossible to be lost.


It appears most of the world is lost...


Everyone that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

[Sherri]

It appears most of the world is lost...


Everyone that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

Amen!

[Sister Alvear]

There are billions of lost people...I weep for them.

I sure do want to be saved...and am mighty glad God will be the judge on that day...

[Sister Alvear]

Phil 2:12

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
KJV
That is how serious our salvation should be to us...

[Sister Alvear]

Ps 114:7

7 Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the God of Jacob;
KJV

[jaxfam6]

I do know this...after reading numerous threads around here, the straight and narrow ain't so straight and narrow no more! It's a big fun wide yellow brick road with room for EVERYONE!

And don't forget the flying monkeys and ruby red slippers

[Sister Alvear]

I once needed an answer from God and low and behold a Jehovah Witness knocked at my door...I was polite let her and and we talked a long time...she said exactly what I needed to hear...
Does that mean she is saved? I would think not however God has ways of talking to us so I try to refrain from judging and just do the best I can to get to the City. Sometimes some of the questions people ask are just to get others going...I tend to ignore some things.

[SDG]

Not Gregory that's for sure.

[stmatthew]

Translation: I believe in works based salvation, so I need to make sure I do enough works so that I am doing too much works so I am not doing too little works and can't work my way into Heaven.



:blah:blah:blah

Honestly, it was a liberal PCI believing man that said it. You sure are getting the attitude lately...

[Jekyll]

Apparently if you believe in un-cut hair you can be lost around here. Apparently, if you think that obedience gives you power with God you can be lost according to some here.

[StMark]

Jesus after teaching was asked "Who then can be saved." Mt.19:25 But on AFF then question is who can be lost. Baptism not essential, tongues a maybe, suck cigarettes and have the HGB, church attendance optional, no tithe paying, pastor is an abomination. Nothing is essential and anything is okay. It is impossible to be lost.


Elder Epley, I remember hearing preaching years ago that before
the coming of the Lord there would be a great falling away
and that many would would become aposate. I think we
are entering that time at a Very Rapid pace now.


What these people don't realize, They will eventually believe
the same doctrine that Carlton Pearson believes. I am seeing
MANY who use to be Pentecostal now believing this mess.
Some that I grew up with. It's been a startling wake up call.

Some of these folks on AFF may not go that far but their offspring
will

[Jermyn Davidson]

but then there's God's Grace. By the power of His Name and by the abundance of His everlasting mercies, I pray for the salvation of my children, my children's children and my children's children's children.

And the thing is, I believe my God is able to keep them-- and I don't even see them yet, but I will, by God's Grace.

[Maple Leaf]

Would you elaborate on this a little, please?

“9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” (2 Corinthians 5:9-10)

As Christians, we will appear at the Judgment Seat of Christ to receive reward for our Christian service. Our sins are forgiven, the sentence of death has been lifted, and there is no condemnation in Christ, but there will be a day of reckoning and reward. We will receive a just reward on the basis of our works, whether good or bad.

What is the purpose of the judgment seat of Christ if every area of discipleship is a Heaven or Hell issue? On this forum I have read almost everything imaginable cited as a reason for hellfire and damnation (eg. Prayer, church attendance, soul winning, tithes and offerings, outward standards, . . .). Perfect obedience was only attained by Christ, and yet, on this forum, it seems to be the standard for admission to the everlasting kingdom.

Let’s take prayer for an example.

It would seem to be self evident that if a person never prays that they are not saved. Saved people pray, but what about the vast majority of Christians who fall short of praying the optimum number of hours per day, or who are inconsistent in their prayer lives? Will the person who fails to pray every day be lost? Will the person who falls short of the magic number of minutes per day (whatever that is) be lost? I would say, “no.” Their failure to attain perfect obedience will not cause them to lose their salvation, but will result in lost reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

The same could be said of very area of Christian discipleship. Some will produce thirtyfold, some sixtyfold, some one hundredfold, but all will give account for their service to the Master.

If I must live in fear of Hell over every detail of my Christian life, I will become frustrated and condemned, and join the throngs who have given up or who have no hope of Heaven because of the demands of legalistic religion. If I have confidence in my salvation in Jesus Christ, then I may serve without condemnation, but with great carefulness knowing that I must one day give account to God for how I have lived.

[Brad Murphy]

If I must live in fear of Hell over every detail of my Christian life, I will become frustrated and condemned, and join the throngs who have given up because or who have no hope of Heaven because of the demands of legalistic religion. If I have confidence in my salvation in Jesus Christ, then I may serve without fear, but with great carefulness knowing that I must one day give account to God for how I have lived.

Thank you for describing my point of view so succinctly. :) As a perfectionist by nature, I see no way that God's grace and unconditional love can in any way coexist with the views passed down over the last 100 years in the Pentecostal culture.

[Baron1710]

“9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” (2 Corinthians 5:9-10)

As Christians, we will appear at the Judgment Seat of Christ to receive reward for our Christian service. Our sins are forgiven, the sentence of death has been lifted, and there is no condemnation in Christ, but there will be a day of reckoning and reward. We will receive a just reward on the basis of our works, whether good or bad.

What is the purpose of the judgment seat of Christ if every area of discipleship is a Heaven or Hell issue? On this forum I have read almost everything imaginable cited as a reason for hellfire and damnation (eg. Prayer, church attendance, soul winning, tithes and offerings, outward standards, . . .). Perfect obedience was only attained by Christ, and yet, on this forum, it seems to be the standard for admission to the everlasting kingdom.

Let’s take prayer for an example.

It would seem to be self evident that if a person never prays that they are not saved. Saved people pray, but what about the vast majority of Christians who fall short of praying the optimum number of hours per day, or who are inconsistent in their prayer lives? Will the person who fails to pray every day be lost? Will the person who falls short of the magic number of minutes per day (whatever that is) be lost? I would say, “no.” Their failure to attain perfect obedience will not cause them to lose their salvation, but will result in lost reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

The same could be said of very area of Christian discipleship. Some will produce thirtyfold, some sixtyfold, some one hundredfold, but all will give account for their service to the Master.

If I must live in fear of Hell over every detail of my Christian life, I will become frustrated and condemned, and join the throngs who have given up because or who have no hope of Heaven because of the demands of legalistic religion. If I have confidence in my salvation in Jesus Christ, then I may serve without condemnation, but with great carefulness knowing that I must one day give account to God for how I have lived.

Very well said.

[Maple Leaf]

Thank you for describing my point of view so succinctly. :) As a perfectionist by nature, I see no way that God's grace and unconditional love can in any way coexist with the views passed down over the last 100 years in the Pentecostal culture.

The grace of God does not preclude the requirement that we live soberly, righteously, and godly. God’s grace does allow us to be comfortable in our salvation while instructing us and empowering us to walk in paths of righteousness for His name’s sake. It is not inconsistent to celebrate salvation by grace through faith, and to live by the command to “be holy.”

[MissBrattified]

Anyone who refuses to repent of their sins will be lost. Additionally, one must be obedient to the Word of God, and be baptized, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. (How can a person be saved if they aren't filled with God's Spirit?)

But. :) I do believe we serve a just God, and since even Apostolics can't agree on every detail, I have to believe that God lives by His own code, and He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy. In the meantime, it is my obligation to live and speak of what I know and understand.

In my opinion, though, ANYone who believes that Jesus is God, and is trying to follow His teachings is a "Christian." Does that mean I think they have it all together? No. But I will not deny their experience, nor will I minimize their following of Christ by saying they are not a Christian simply because they haven't been baptized yet, or haven't received the Holy Ghost. Even in Acts, men were called "disciples", though they had not been baptized or received the Spirit yet.

According to the WORD, repenting of your sins is enough to get you the label of "disciple."

Anyone who follows the teachings of Christ and believes He is God is a Christian. Saved? That's up to God. By their fruits shall you know them--and how much they love their brothers and sisters.

[StillStanding]

The whole world can be lost! All it takes is one small slip from perfection! :crazy

[Steve Epley]

Elder Epley, I remember hearing preaching years ago that before
the coming of the Lord there would be a great falling away
and that many would would become aposate. I think we
are entering that time at a Very Rapid pace now.


What these people don't realize, They will eventually believe
the same doctrine that Carlton Pearson believes. I am seeing
MANY who use to be Pentecostal now believing this mess.
Some that I grew up with. It's been a startling wake up call.

Some of these folks on AFF may not go that far but their offspring
will

Mark some folks on here are a hair's breath from what CP teaches. I honestly don't know ONE thing they believe is essential a good Baptist believes more than someof them.

[Steve Epley]

“9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” (2 Corinthians 5:9-10)

As Christians, we will appear at the Judgment Seat of Christ to receive reward for our Christian service. Our sins are forgiven, the sentence of death has been lifted, and there is no condemnation in Christ, but there will be a day of reckoning and reward. We will receive a just reward on the basis of our works, whether good or bad.

What is the purpose of the judgment seat of Christ if every area of discipleship is a Heaven or Hell issue? On this forum I have read almost everything imaginable cited as a reason for hellfire and damnation (eg. Prayer, church attendance, soul winning, tithes and offerings, outward standards, . . .). Perfect obedience was only attained by Christ, and yet, on this forum, it seems to be the standard for admission to the everlasting kingdom.

Let’s take prayer for an example.

It would seem to be self evident that if a person never prays that they are not saved. Saved people pray, but what about the vast majority of Christians who fall short of praying the optimum number of hours per day, or who are inconsistent in their prayer lives? Will the person who fails to pray every day be lost? Will the person who falls short of the magic number of minutes per day (whatever that is) be lost? I would say, “no.” Their failure to attain perfect obedience will not cause them to lose their salvation, but will result in lost reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

The same could be said of very area of Christian discipleship. Some will produce thirtyfold, some sixtyfold, some one hundredfold, but all will give account for their service to the Master.

If I must live in fear of Hell over every detail of my Christian life, I will become frustrated and condemned, and join the throngs who have given up or who have no hope of Heaven because of the demands of legalistic religion. If I have confidence in my salvation in Jesus Christ, then I may serve without condemnation, but with great carefulness knowing that I must one day give account to God for how I have lived.

Elder without trying to be offensive you sound like a Southern Baptist.

[Baron1710]

Elder without trying to be offensive you sound like a Southern Baptist.

He sounds like a Christian and you sound like a Pharisee that puts everyone else in hell but yourself…without being offensive.

[Steve Epley]

He sounds like a Christian and you sound like a Pharisee that puts everyone else in hell but yourself…without being offensive.

Maple Leaf is a good guy we have fussed for years now, however what he stated is Baptist theology.

[Rico]

:blah:blah:blah

Honestly, it was a liberal PCI believing man that said it. You sure are getting the attitude lately...

Brother, I will stand against anything I believe the Bible is against. Works based salvation is high on that list. I've heard preachers make the same type of comments as the one in your previous post, and they're based on faulty logic and putting the cart before the horse. It's been my experience that too many apostolic preachers end up preaching works based salvation, mainly out of fear of sounding like the once saved always saved crowd. I've heard many more sermons on performing, whether it be this standard or that standard, than I have heard on the grace of God. The focus is more on works than anything else, and it shouldn't be this way.

[TRFrance]

I will not deny their experience, nor will I minimize their following of Christ by saying they are not a Christian simply because they haven't been baptized yet, or haven't received the Holy Ghost. Even in Acts, men were called "disciples", though they had not been baptized or received the Spirit yet.

According to the WORD, repenting of your sins is enough to get you the label of "disciple."

Miss Bratt,
Sounds like you're referring to the men in Acts 19:1-6. Yes, they were called disciples but that didnt make them Christians. They were not disciples of Christ. They were disciples of John the baptist, and had not even heard the gospel of Jesus till afterward, when Paul shared it with them.

[Steve Epley]

Miss Bratt,
Sounds like you're referring to the men in Acts 19:1-6. Yes, they were called disciples but that didnt make them Christians. They were not disciples of Christ. They were disciples of John the baptist, and had not even heard the gospel of Jesus till afterward, when Paul shared it with them.

YEP that is how it was.

[Tyk]

Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

If a pentecostal came doing those things described in vs 22, we/you would build him up to be mighty man of God that we should all follow. He has the power (that i heard preached about so much...) and must be doing things right!

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
1Tim 4:1-2Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

The falling away you spoke of Mark.

And it shall come to pass in the LAST DAYS, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit UPON ALL FLESH: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams... And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood and fire and pillars of smoke... Acts 2:16-20

I've heard great revival preached the same way I've heard the falling away preached.

Like I've said before, who would be "blind" to Jesus if he walked into our service or house? Infact he might be waiting to get into heaven himself because of his Beard.

[MissBrattified]

Miss Bratt,
Sounds like you're referring to the men in Acts 19:1-6. Yes, they were called disciples but that didnt make them Christians. They were not disciples of Christ. They were disciples of John the baptist, and had not even heard the gospel of Jesus till afterward, when Paul shared it with them.

Perhaps not, but on another thread, Bro. Epley said that there are no non-Apostolic Christians (not a direct quote), and I disagree. I think "Christian" befalls anyone who is making any effort to follow Christ and His teachings. Whether they have "arrived" or not, is another matter.

[RandyWayne]

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Gee, I doubt THIS will describe anyone who stuck to 'the manual' to a T?

[Maple Leaf]

Elder without trying to be offensive you sound like a Southern Baptist.


Truth is no less truth if it sounds like a Southern Baptist, and no more truth if it sounds like a Oneness Pentecostal.

[Tyk]

Truth is no less truth if it sounds like a Southern Baptist, and no more truth if it sounds like a Oneness Pentecostal.

Agreed. I don't care what title or "denomination" I might get labeled or sound like. As Maple said, in the end, the truth - The word of God - is what matters.

[Rico]

Perhaps not, but on another thread, Bro. Epley said that there are no non-Apostolic Christians (not a direct quote), and I disagree. I think "Christian" befalls anyone who is making any effort to follow Christ and His teachings. Whether they have "arrived" or not, is another matter.

Sister, you are going to make a good liberal eventually. It's plain to see you are toying with the edge of the slippery slope that leadeth to all manner of greasy gracenessness. :D

[MissBrattified]

Sister, you are going to make a good liberal eventually. It's plain to see you are toying with the edge of the slippery slope that leadeth to all manner of greasy gracenessness. :D

LOL!!! I've always felt this way, Rico. My parents raised me to respect (e.g., BE respectful to) all other believers, Apostolic or not, or whether we thought they were saved or not.

I would not disrespect another person who believes they are Christian by denying them the title of Christian. What would be the point of that, other than to disrespect them?

[Ferd]

I have lost my will to argue about it. I wonder if that is a temporary thing or something that will last a while.

I don't understand folk that have something then make it their life's work to find the loopholes and exceptions related to not having it.

its one thing to have a discussion with a Baptist fellow about salvation. It is mind numbing vanity to have that same discussion about the Baptist fellow with a fellow Apostolic.

[RandyWayne]

Truth is no less truth if it sounds like a Southern Baptist, and no more truth if it sounds like a Oneness Pentecostal.

Is this perhaps why you almost never hear hard core apostolics quote John 3:16? "Why that is where BAPTISTS get their doctrine!"

[Rico]

Is this perhaps why you almost never hear hard core apostolics quote John 3:16? "Why that is where BAPTISTS get their doctrine!"

I've heard apostolics quote John 3:16 plenty of times. Usually its' to quote it like it's actually written in the KJV.

[Mrs. LPW]

Is this perhaps why you almost never hear hard core apostolics quote John 3:16? "Why that is where BAPTISTS get their doctrine!"

There are plenty of scriptures that are not oft quoted by the not so hard core Apostolics...

By Grace are ye saved through faith!
Faith without works is dead being alone!

I think the two coincide beautifully.

[RandyWayne]

There are plenty of scriptures that are not oft quoted by the not so hard core Apostolics...

By Grace are ye saved through faith!
Faith without works is dead being alone!

I think the two coincide beautifully.

And what are the "works"? The NT really only has two specific commandments which encompass the spirit of the whole OT law. It is religion (not JUST apostolics) that add to it through endless bylaws and 50-100 year old traditions based on what culture was like when they (the bylaws) were written.

[Ferd]

Is this perhaps why you almost never hear hard core apostolics quote John 3:16? "Why that is where BAPTISTS get their doctrine!"

while im not going to join the debate (see my previous post)

John 3:16 was one of the earliest scriptures I learned in a Hardcore Apostolic church. It seems my hardcore Apostolic teachers/pastor thought that one was pretty important.

[RandyWayne]

while im not going to join the debate (see my previous post)

John 3:16 was one of the earliest scriptures I learned in a Hardcore Apostolic church. It seems my hardcore Apostolic teachers/pastor thought that one was pretty important.

I'm glad you did. I never did -except with endless caveats added.

[TRFrance]

I have lost my will to argue about it. I wonder if that is a temporary thing or something that will last a while.

I don't understand folk that have something then make it their life's work to find the loopholes and exceptions related to not having it.

Bingo!
To me, the endless seeking of loopholes could be in indicator of a deeper issue... i.e. a spirit of compromise that could put such a person in deeper spiritual peril in the days ahead.

[Tyk]

Bingo!
To me, the endless seeking of loopholes could be in indicator of a deeper issue... i.e. a spirit of compromise that could put such a person in deeper spiritual peril in the days ahead.

Very very true. This is why we must always stop and ask God to show us the true intentions of our hearts. And to remove what humanity and error we have begun to intake.

I have to pray that every day after I leave the boards LOL!

[Rico]

Bingo!
To me, the endless seeking of loopholes could be in indicator of a deeper issue... i.e. a spirit of compromise that could put such a person in deeper spiritual peril in the days ahead.

True. The endless seeking of additions to God's Word could also be an indicator of a deeper issue....i.e. a spirit of elitism and judgmentalism that could put such a person in deeper spiritual peril in the days ahead. :D

[Ron]

I have lost my will to argue about it. I wonder if that is a temporary thing or something that will last a while.

I don't understand folk that have something then make it their life's work to find the loopholes and exceptions related to not having it.

its one thing to have a discussion with a Baptist fellow about salvation. It is mind numbing vanity to have that same discussion about the Baptist fellow with a fellow Apostolic.

It is one thing to debate/discuss an issue to find deeper meaning, it is quite another to debate to tear down or divide.

I agree.

[OnTheFritz]

I have lost my will to argue about it. I wonder if that is a temporary thing or something that will last a while.

I don't understand folk that have something then make it their life's work to find the loopholes and exceptions related to not having it.

its one thing to have a discussion with a Baptist fellow about salvation. It is mind numbing vanity to have that same discussion about the Baptist fellow with a fellow Apostolic.

I think this is partially because you tend to take other people's word for things when you are a either a) very young or b) a new Christian. At some point, however, everyone (should) make an honest assessment of what they believe based on their own study, conviction and prayerful seeking.

[StMark]

I recently read a report stating that Carlton Pearson's
church has Doubled in size and they have or will be
relocating to accomodate the growth


There was a time when this would surprise me
but not any longer

[Ferd]

I think this is partially because you tend to take other people's word for things when you are a either a) very young or b) a new Christian. At some point, however, everyone (should) make an honest assessment of what they believe based on their own study, conviction and prayerful seeking.

LOL! I gotta ask, are you using the pronoun "YOU" to mean me, or are you using euphemisticly?

[Tyk]

Yeah surprised me until I read acts, where great numbers were added to the church daily, then it stopped surprising me too.

Can you not see it can work both ways?

[Tyk]

LOL! I gotta ask, are you using the pronoun "YOU" to mean me, or are you using euphemisticly?

I highly doubt he was referring to you Fred :)

Just to "people" in general.

[OnTheFritz]

I recently read a report stating that Carlton Pearson's
church has Doubled in size and they have or will be
relocating to accomodate the growth


There was a time when this would surprise me
but not any longer

If it's big and blue, it must be true. :lol

[OnTheFritz]

LOL! I gotta ask, are you using the pronoun "YOU" to mean me, or are you using euphemisticly?

Hahaha ;) Yeah, sorry. The "collective" you.

[Michael Phelps]

It is one thing to debate/discuss an issue to find deeper meaning, it is quite another to debate to tear down or divide.

I agree.

However, if an issue is truthful and solid, you cannot tear it down.

When I was in the automotive engineering industry, during the prototype phase of new vehicles, our engineers would do "pull" tests on all of the welds.

They had performed a weld study based on computer calculations, and thought they had sufficient amounts and placements of welds in a particular panel, but the ultimate test was the "pull" test.

In essence, they took a panel, and grabbed it with clamps, pliers, pneumatic chisels, etc and tried to tear it apart. If the panel came apart too easily, it was back to the drawing board, or computer.

But, if they pulled and pulled, applying the same amount of torque and stress that a car may experience during a crash, and the weld spots held true, they knew they had been successful.

Same should be with our idealogies and paradigms.......if they can't stand up to the "pull' test, we probably need to go back to the drawing board.

[Rico]

However, if an issue is truthful and solid, you cannot tear it down.

When I was in the automotive engineering industry, during the prototype phase of new vehicles, our engineers would do "pull" tests on all of the welds.

They had performed a weld study based on computer calculations, and thought they had sufficient amounts and placements of welds in a particular panel, but the ultimate test was the "pull" test.

In essence, they took a panel, and grabbed it with clamps, pliers, pneumatic chisels, etc and tried to tear it apart. If the panel came apart too easily, it was back to the drawing board, or computer.

But, if they pulled and pulled, applying the same amount of torque and stress that a car may experience during a crash, and the weld spots held true, they knew they had been successful.

Same should be with our idealogies and paradigms.......if they can't stand up to the "pull' test, we probably need to go back to the drawing board.

Good analogy!

[RandyWayne]

However, if an issue is truthful and solid, you cannot tear it down.

When I was in the automotive engineering industry, during the prototype phase of new vehicles, our engineers would do "pull" tests on all of the welds.

They had performed a weld study based on computer calculations, and thought they had sufficient amounts and placements of welds in a particular panel, but the ultimate test was the "pull" test.

In essence, they took a panel, and grabbed it with clamps, pliers, pneumatic chisels, etc and tried to tear it apart. If the panel came apart too easily, it was back to the drawing board, or computer.

But, if they pulled and pulled, applying the same amount of torque and stress that a car may experience during a crash, and the weld spots held true, they knew they had been successful.

Same should be with our idealogies and paradigms.......if they can't stand up to the "pull' test, we probably need to go back to the drawing board.

Very true.
In the end, if the only argument is "No one who <fill in the blank> will make it to heaven" or "No one who doesn't <fill in the blank> will make it to heaven" is all you have, all your doing is arguing from the standpoint of tradition and are too bull headed to change.

[Ferd]

Hahaha ;) Yeah, sorry. The "collective" you.

LOL! got ya. I am glad I asked for clarification!

[Rico]

Very true.
In the end, if the only argument is "No one who <fill in the blank> will make it to heaven" or "No one who doesn't <fill in the blank> will make it to heaven" is all you have, all your doing is arguing from the standpoint of tradition and are too bull headed to change.

Know ye not that the bull headed shall inherit the Kingdom of Heaven? Epley 4:4 :D

[Ferd]

However, if an issue is truthful and solid, you cannot tear it down.

When I was in the automotive engineering industry, during the prototype phase of new vehicles, our engineers would do "pull" tests on all of the welds.

They had performed a weld study based on computer calculations, and thought they had sufficient amounts and placements of welds in a particular panel, but the ultimate test was the "pull" test.

In essence, they took a panel, and grabbed it with clamps, pliers, pneumatic chisels, etc and tried to tear it apart. If the panel came apart too easily, it was back to the drawing board, or computer.

But, if they pulled and pulled, applying the same amount of torque and stress that a car may experience during a crash, and the weld spots held true, they knew they had been successful.

Same should be with our idealogies and paradigms.......if they can't stand up to the "pull' test, we probably need to go back to the drawing board.

we have some fold using nuclear weapons on truth and calling it a pull test....

but I get what you are saying and agree. Bad teaching will make people leave good doctrine in a heartbeat.

bad doctrine will cause people to reject both good and bad at the same time. we have all seen that.

[RandyWayne]

Know ye not that the bull headed shall inherit the Kingdom of Heaven? Epley 4:4 :D

"No one who does not engage in foot washing is apostolic."

"No one outside of apostolic circles are Christians."

"No woman with bobbed hair will be in the bride."

"No one who smokes will enter heaven/be in the bride."

All of the above quotes are attributed to the author of this thread verbatim.

I would postulate that anyone who makes all of the above statements will not be part of the bride.... But I won't. :)

[Michael Phelps]

we have some fold using nuclear weapons on truth and calling it a pull test....

but I get what you are saying and agree. Bad teaching will make people leave good doctrine in a heartbeat.

bad doctrine will cause people to reject both good and bad at the same time. we have all seen that.

I think we all need to be careful how we teach things, as well.

It's one thing to teach that certain things are not good for a Christian to do, even if we don't have chapter and verse.

But, to preach those same things as issues of heaven or hell, when the scripture NOWHERE gives such gravity to the subject, is adding to the Word, in my humble opinion.

We should be like Paul, when he said, "All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient".

There are certain things that may not necessarily send me to hell, but they surely are not conducive to living an overcoming life!

No, we don't have to have chapter and verse to preach against things, just common sense is all that's needed in most cases.

However, we must certainly DO need chapter and verse if we're going to pronounce eternal damnation on someone's soul for engaging in that activity!

[RandyWayne]

we have some fold using nuclear weapons on truth and calling it a pull test....

but I get what you are saying and agree. Bad teaching will make people leave good doctrine in a heartbeat.

bad doctrine will cause people to reject both good and bad at the same time. we have all seen that.

Amen

[Steve Epley]

"No one who does not engage in foot washing is apostolic."

"No one outside of apostolic circles are Christians."

"No woman with bobbed hair will be in the bride."

"No one who smokes will enter heaven/be in the bride."

All of the above quotes are attributed to the author of this thread verbatim.

I would postulate that anyone who makes all of the above statements will not be part of the bride.... But I won't. :)

Those are my statements and I stand behind everyone of them.

[mizpeh]

“9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” (2 Corinthians 5:9-10)

As Christians, we will appear at the Judgment Seat of Christ to receive reward for our Christian service. Our sins are forgiven, the sentence of death has been lifted, and there is no condemnation in Christ, but there will be a day of reckoning and reward. We will receive a just reward on the basis of our works, whether good or bad.

What is the purpose of the judgment seat of Christ if every area of discipleship is a Heaven or Hell issue? On this forum I have read almost everything imaginable cited as a reason for hellfire and damnation (eg. Prayer, church attendance, soul winning, tithes and offerings, outward standards, . . .). Perfect obedience was only attained by Christ, and yet, on this forum, it seems to be the standard for admission to the everlasting kingdom.

Let’s take prayer for an example.

It would seem to be self evident that if a person never prays that they are not saved. Saved people pray, but what about the vast majority of Christians who fall short of praying the optimum number of hours per day, or who are inconsistent in their prayer lives? Will the person who fails to pray every day be lost? Will the person who falls short of the magic number of minutes per day (whatever that is) be lost? I would say, “no.” Their failure to attain perfect obedience will not cause them to lose their salvation, but will result in lost reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

The same could be said of very area of Christian discipleship. Some will produce thirtyfold, some sixtyfold, some one hundredfold, but all will give account for their service to the Master.

If I must live in fear of Hell over every detail of my Christian life, I will become frustrated and condemned, and join the throngs who have given up or who have no hope of Heaven because of the demands of legalistic religion. If I have confidence in my salvation in Jesus Christ, then I may serve without condemnation, but with great carefulness knowing that I must one day give account to God for how I have lived.

I know that frustration. I've grown out of it because I know the longsuffering and grace of God is real.

Thank you for your response.

[mizpeh]

Perhaps not, but on another thread, Bro. Epley said that there are no non-Apostolic Christians (not a direct quote), and I disagree. I think "Christian" befalls anyone who is making any effort to follow Christ and His teachings. Whether they have "arrived" or not, is another matter.

I think God sees them that way as well!

[mizpeh]

I think we all need to be careful how we teach things, as well.

It's one thing to teach that certain things are not good for a Christian to do, even if we don't have chapter and verse.

But, to preach those same things as issues of heaven or hell, when the scripture NOWHERE gives such gravity to the subject, is adding to the Word, in my humble opinion.

We should be like Paul, when he said, "All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient".

There are certain things that may not necessarily send me to hell, but they surely are not conducive to living an overcoming life!

No, we don't have to have chapter and verse to preach against things, just common sense is all that's needed in most cases.

However, we must certainly DO need chapter and verse if we're going to pronounce eternal damnation on someone's soul for engaging in that activity!
:friend You're alright, Mr. Phelps.

[Hoovie]

Those are my statements and I stand behind everyone of them.

Hey aren't those the lyrics of a country song???:evilglee

[Jermyn Davidson]

Those are my statements and I stand behind everyone of them.


While I'm thinking about this, I think I should let you know, Sir, that although I differ with you, I admire and respect that you are willing to take a stand. Your online demeanor has helped me to become more rooted and grounded in what I believe.

It's a show of strength, in many cases, to stand, unflinchingly.

[theoldpaths]

Those are my statements and I stand behind everyone of them.

What is bobbed hair?

[theoldpaths]

"No one who does not engage in foot washing is apostolic."

"No one outside of apostolic circles are Christians."

"No woman with bobbed hair will be in the bride."

"No one who smokes will enter heaven/be in the bride."

All of the above quotes are attributed to the author of this thread verbatim.

I would postulate that anyone who makes all of the above statements will not be part of the bride.... But I won't. :)

I agree with every one of those statements as well, except I don't know what "bobbed" hair is.

Can't be saved without obeying the apostolic plan of salvation that the apostles taught to the lost in the book of Acts. Jews, Samaritans, Gentiles all baptized in the name of Jesus and rec'd the Holy Ghost - born again of the water and Spirit.

If one is bound by smoking, then they are still bound - he whom the Son has set free, is free indeed. What kind of an example is the church to the world, if there are people in the church who cannot be set free from smoking? Why should the world seek that church if that church doesn't have the power to deliver someone? Perhaps that church has lost its power over its enemies due to some Achan?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Please tell me you are not giving salvation-level value to foot washing?

[MawMaw]

Bro. Epley, I really admire and appreciate so much, Men of God as yourself! :)

[RevDWW]

Here's a couple of lists of who can be lost:


1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



But this gives me hope:

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

[CC1]

What is bobbed hair?

Cut hair. I believe it actually refers to a specific hairstyle of cut hair on women back from the first part of the 20th century. Since those AMF types like Elder Epley live in that era in their minds (LOL) I think they use that term to apply generically to cut hair on women.

[Michael Phelps]

Those are my statements and I stand behind everyone of them.

I respect your stand, Elder. Unfortunately, scripture doesn't stand with you.

[Steve Epley]

Cut hair. I believe it actually refers to a specific hairstyle of cut hair on women back from the first part of the 20th century. Since those AMF types like Elder Epley live in that era in their minds (LOL) I think they use that term to apply generically to cut hair on women.

Yep us OLD codgers still say bobbed hair.:grumpy:grampa:IAM:scripture

[StMark]

I respect your stand, Elder. Unfortunately, scripture doesn't stand with you.



What MIke is trying to tell you is, God is standing with him
and that he knows more bible than you do

[Nina]

"No one who does not engage in foot washing is apostolic."

"No one outside of apostolic circles are Christians."

"No woman with bobbed hair will be in the bride."

"No one who smokes will enter heaven/be in the bride."

"No one who eats to the point of gluttony will be in the bride."


Brother Epley,

How about the last one?

And the other questions You were asked concerning fellowshipping gluttons?

You aren't afraid of these questions, are You? :whistle

Nina

[Steve Epley]

"No one who does not engage in foot washing is apostolic."

"No one outside of apostolic circles are Christians."

"No woman with bobbed hair will be in the bride."

"No one who smokes will enter heaven/be in the bride."

"No one who east to the point of gluttony will be in the bride."


Brother Rpley,

How about the last one?
And the other questions You were asked concerning fellowshipping gluttons?

You aren't afraid of these questions, are You? :whistle

Nina

Again I answer gluttony is a sin any sin not repented of will cause one to be lost.

[TCSQ]

Jesus after teaching was asked "Who then can be saved." Mt.19:25 But on AFF then question is who can be lost. Baptism not essential, tongues a maybe, suck cigarettes and have the HGB, church attendance optional, no tithe paying, pastor is an abomination. Nothing is essential and anything is okay. It is impossible to be lost.

You know Brother Epley, a lot of this is probably an over correction or overreaction by many to the years and sometimes decades or even lifetimes of grossly distorted preaching by so many "hardline" preachers that is all the product of THEIR troubled relationship with God, and THEIR insecurity as to wether they are actually saved or not that manifests itself with this constant beat the sheep attitude, heap more incredibly NON BIBLICAL ***JUNK***on them, and then after you have done everything you can to poison THEIR relationship with God , cast them out when they just cant do this stuff!

Unfortunately the reaction so many have is to just give up, throw up their hands and respond to the FALSE image of God created in their minds by so many Phariseeical or Sadduceeical men and say "Thats It! NONE OF THIS brings me any peace, I just cant do it, I QUIT!!!!

I reached that point several months ago sitting in the congregation of a conference where a DEEPLY disturbed man was up ranting and raving about the internet, constantly repeating the name of a website ***HE*** had accessed at the public library of women having relations with animals, screaming that all men with long sideburns are queers, calling all the children in the congregation from 6 to 8 to come down front, then the 8 to 10s and when all the little girls and boys were down front telling them to imagine they were in a hotel in San Francisco without their parents, BUT ( as an aside to the parents in the congregation) telling them "Don't worry....down in the lobby there is a security guard!" And then speaking to the innocent little boys and girls gathered in front of him he says "BUT...in the room next to you there are lesbians! and in the room next to YOU their is bestiality going on! And in the room next to you..."

This of course was the THIRD year in a row I had gone to this major conference, the first year was surprised to hear the story of the pastors wife in the LA area whose husband took her down to the basement and forced her to be intimate with a German Shepherd ( the dog NOT a herder of sheep from Germany) the NEXT year heard the story from the speaker of how he used to give his dog corn cob suppositories dipped in kerosene. So as the third (and last) year rolled around was NOT in the least surprised to hear yet another bestiality tyrade...do YOU see a very disturbing trend here???? I DO.

Went to other conferences where I got to hear that men who wear beards are either effeminate, reprobate or unholy, hear the wedding ring garbage ad infinitum, the colored shirt garbage, watch as the clergy takes over the saints and reduces Pentecost to a spectator sport, and so as I am sitting in another conference months later and the same self hating, sheep mutilating stuff starts, it just hit me so intenseley

ENOUGH OF THIS ........! (Can you say "........" on this board??? evidently NOT well it starts with a "C" and rhymes with trap) "MY DAD LOVES ME AND HE IS *****N*O*T*H*I*N*G***** LIKE WHAT YOU ARE MAKING HIM OUT TO BE!"

I think the capper was the message preached by a very very sick man at the Admit conference where he began to go after the OTHER SPEAKERS (!) at the conference one by one, humiliating and ripping them before he got to the HEART of his attack....some unfathomable tyrade about the "spirit of Zen that influences the way we DRIVE(!?) and of course the message God gave him about the Chicago Bulls BASEBALL team (AGAIN!?) before he got down to his real intent and purpose the attempted destruction of a brother that he cant even begin to compare to with the now infamous line "SMART PEOPLE CAN'T KNOW GOD!!!!!!!" While you can hear the audience of his fellow preachers jumping up and yelling "AMEN!!!!"



No Brother Epley if you REALLY want to identify the root cause of so much of what disturbs you (AND ME!) in the current trend by so many dear people to just chuck it all away, one need look no further than the kind of crowd that you and so many of the rest of us have ran with in the past, men whose fruit (the constant destruction and character assasination going on behind the scenes that you WELL are aware of) demonstrates that with their LIPS they proclaim God but with their hearts they dont even know him at all!

Well thank God I didnt cast away the fundementals of the Apostolic faith, but I sure as shootin' have jettisoned all the man made nonsense that I HOPE is being weighed in the balance of Gods Word by so many of this next generation of preachers!

[Nina]

Again I answer gluttony is a sin any sin not repented of will cause one to be lost.
Brother,

Will You fellowship with a glutton?

Nina

[Nina]

Brother,

Will You fellowship with a glutton?

Nina


Do You let gluttons preach for You?

Nina

[U376977]

You know Brother Epley, a lot of this is probably an over correction or overreaction by many to the years and sometimes decades or even lifetimes of grossly distorted preaching by so many "hardline" preachers that is all the product of THEIR troubled relationship with God, and THEIR insecurity as to wether they are actually saved or not that manifests itself with this constant beat the sheep attitude, heap more incredibly NON BIBLICAL ***JUNK***on them, and then after you have done everything you can to poison THEIR relationship with God , cast them out when they just cant do this stuff!

Unfortunately the reaction so many have is to just give up, throw up their hands and respond to the FALSE image of God created in their minds by so many Phariseeical or Sadduceeical men and say "Thats It! NONE OF THIS brings me any peace, I just cant do it, I QUIT!!!!

I reached that point several months ago sitting in the congregation of a conference where a DEEPLY disturbed man was up ranting and raving about the internet, constantly repeating the name of a website ***HE*** had accessed at the public library of women having relations with animals, screaming that all men with long sideburns are queers, calling all the children in the congregation from 6 to 8 to come down front, then the 8 to 10s and when all the little girls and boys were down front telling them to imagine they were in a hotel in San Francisco without their parents, BUT ( as an aside to the parents in the congregation) telling them "Don't worry....down in the lobby there is a security guard!" And then speaking to the innocent little boys and girls gathered in front of him he says "BUT...in the room next to you there are lesbians! and in the room next to YOU their is bestiality going on! And in the room next to you..."

This of course was the THIRD year in a row I had gone to this major conference, the first year was surprised to hear the story of the pastors wife in the LA area whose husband took her down to the basement and forced her to be intimate with a German Shepherd ( the dog NOT a herder of sheep from Germany) the NEXT year heard the story from the speaker of how he used to give his dog corn cob suppositories dipped in kerosene. So as the third (and last) year rolled around was NOT in the least surprised to hear yet another bestiality tyrade...do YOU see a very disturbing trend here???? I DO.

Went to other conferences where I got to hear that men who wear beards are either effeminate, reprobate or unholy, hear the wedding ring garbage ad infinitum, the colored shirt garbage, watch as the clergy takes over the saints and reduces Pentecost to a spectator sport, and so as I am sitting in another conference months later and the same self hating, sheep mutilating stuff starts, it just hit me so intenseley

ENOUGH OF THIS ........! (Can you say "........" on this board??? evidently NOT well it starts with a "C" and rhymes with trap) "MY DAD LOVES ME AND HE IS *****N*O*T*H*I*N*G***** LIKE WHAT YOU ARE MAKING HIM OUT TO BE!"

I think the capper was the message preached by a very very sick man at the Admit conference where he began to go after the OTHER SPEAKERS (!) at the conference one by one, humiliating and ripping them before he got to the HEART of his attack....some unfathomable tyrade about the "spirit of Zen that influences the way we DRIVE(!?) and of course the message God gave him about the Chicago Bulls BASEBALL team (AGAIN!?) before he got down to his real intent and purpose the attempted destruction of a brother that he cant even begin to compare to with the now infamous line "SMART PEOPLE CAN'T KNOW GOD!!!!!!!" While you can hear the audience of his fellow preachers jumping up and yelling "AMEN!!!!"



No Brother Epley if you REALLY want to identify the root cause of so much of what disturbs you (AND ME!) in the current trend by so many dear people to just chuck it all away, one need look no further than the kind of crowd that you and so many of the rest of us have ran with in the past, men whose fruit (the constant destruction and character assasination going on behind the scenes that you WELL are aware of) demonstrates that with their LIPS they proclaim God but with their hearts they dont even know him at all!

Well thank God I didnt cast away the fundementals of the Apostolic faith, but I sure as shootin' have jettisoned all the man made nonsense that I HOPE is being weighed in the balance of Gods Word by so many of this next generation of preachers!


SO WELL SAID. Exactly why I would never join an organization. They all to this to some degree or another.

[Steve Epley]

Brother,

Will You fellowship with a glutton?

Nina

Firstly how would I know someone was a glutton because they were overweight????????? YOU know folks who are not gluttons are overweight.
This one is difficult if someone eats more than I are they a glutton? Since I am not a big eater nearly everyone would be a glutton.

[Nina]

Firstly how would I know someone was a glutton because they were overweight????????? YOU know folks who are not gluttons are overweight.
This one is difficult if someone eats more than I are they a glutton? Since I am not a big eater nearly everyone would be a glutton.



Brother,

Do You know any human vacuum cleaners?

How difficult is it when You and I both know that the Apostolic ranks are RIFE with this problem?

It's the only "legal sin," if You will.

Have You ever seen a glutton disfellowshipped?

Nina

[He's My Friend]

Brother,

Do You know any human vacuum cleaners?

How difficult is it when You and I both know that the Apostolic ranks are RIFE with this problem? We cannot judge anyone...let alone be able to know when someone is a true glutton....why would I care?
It's the only "legal sin," if You will.

Have You ever seen a glutton disfellowshipped? Have you ?

Nina


On the "glutton" thing, as it has been pointed out many times, size does not determine if one is a glutton.

I am very honest in the questions I have asked.

[Nina]

On the "glutton" thing, as it has been pointed out many times, size does not determine if one is a glutton.

I am very honest in the questions I have asked.



What do You think about a 400 pound evangelist who can eat 3 and a half chickens?

Do You not see the double standard?<--------------hey I just made an oxymoron!

Nina

[Steve Epley]

Brother,

Do You know any human vacuum cleaners?

How difficult is it when You and I both know that the Apostolic ranks are RIFE with this problem?

It's the only "legal sin," if You will.

Have You ever seen a glutton disfellowshipped?

Nina

I saw a few fellows shipped in the pine box thus I guess they were dissed.:tease

[Steve Epley]

What do You think about a 400 pound evangelist who can eat 3 and a half chickens?

Do You not see the double standard?<--------------hey I just made an oxymoron!

Nina

No a fat moron. :whistle

I confess I am guilty I do not know how to determine who is a glutton I suspect some to be but what if they have repented and on their 59th diet plan and have had a bypass operation?

[Nina]

No a fat moron. :whistle

I confess I am guilty I do not know how to determine who is a glutton I suspect some to be but what if they have repented and on their 59th diet plan and have had a bypass operation?



Brother,

Are You telling me that You don't know ANY people You think COULD VERY POSSIBLY BE gluttons?



What if they have repented and are on the nicotine patch?

Don't You see the double standard????????

Nina

[Bro-Larry]

Who then can be lost?
Only those who refuse to believe that the work that Jesus did made them righteous. "Those that are made righteous, by faith, shall live." (literal from Greek)

John Baptist said, "I indeed baptize you with water, unto repentance,..." but; "believe on the greater One who shall come after me. He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and fire." (paraphrase) When Paul preached this to the Baptist brethren at Ephesus, they responded by immediately being baptized in the name of "...the one who came after John," that is, "....Christ Jesus." They then received the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Therefore believing on Christ Jesus, should lead to water baptism, in Jesus name, and also receiving the Spirit baptism that Jesus offers. The believing is what saves us. The water/Spirit baptism, is not "works of righteousness which we have done", but works "that are wrought in God".

[He's My Friend]

What do You think about a 400 pound evangelist who can eat 3 and a half chickens?

Do You not see the double standard?<--------------hey I just made an oxymoron!

Nina


I must confess, I have not thought about a 400 lb evangelist, since I do not know of such a person.

If I did have knowledge of such a person, I would not make it my business to
police his food intake.

[Nina]

I must confess, I have not thought about a 400 lb evangelist, since I do not know of such a person.

If I did have knowledge of such a person, I would not make it my business to
police his food intake.


If You had a friend like him, what would You do?

Do You suppose he has any true friends who should confront him?

Do You suppose he has some accountability (Pastor?) in his life who should help him?

Nina

[He's My Friend]

If You had a friend like him, what would You do?

Do You suppose he has any true friends who should confront him?

Do You suppose he has some accountability (Pastor?) in his life who should help him?

Nina


Nina,

In all honesty, that is a lot of "supposing".

If YOU know of such a person, why don't you confront that person?

Have you confronted him ? Are you feeling convicted to confront him ?

[Steve Epley]

Brother,

Are You telling me that You don't know ANY people You think COULD VERY POSSIBLY BE gluttons?



What if they have repented and are on the nicotine patch?

Don't You see the double standard????????

Nina

EATING IS NOT A SIN. SMOKING IS A SIN. Being a glutton is sinful it is the excess that makes it a sin however smoking is a sin if you smoke ONE cigarette.

[Bro-Larry]

No a fat moron. :whistle

I confess I am guilty I do not know how to determine who is a glutton I suspect some to be but what if they have repented and on their 59th diet plan and have had a bypass operation?


:ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny :ursofunny:ursofunny

[Michlow]

Jesus after teaching was asked "Who then can be saved." Mt.19:25 But on AFF then question is who can be lost. Baptism not essential, tongues a maybe, suck cigarettes and have the HGB, church attendance optional, no tithe paying, pastor is an abomination. Nothing is essential and anything is okay. It is impossible to be lost.

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

By giving grace to others that you view as the rankest of sinners, am I not simply allowing the same bountiful grace to come back upon myself? The scriptures that you (plural) proclaim to be inspired, and given by God, proclaim it so.

Who cares if people smoke and still believe they are saved? Why are you so worried about that "sawdust" in their eye???

[Ron]

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

By giving grace to others that you view as the rankest of sinners, am I not simply allowing the same bountiful grace to come back upon myself? The scriptures that you (plural) proclaim to be inspired, and given by God, proclaim it so.

Who cares if people smoke and still believe they are saved? Why are you so worried about that "sawdust" in their eye???

Mich, I understand the point that you are making & we are not to judge others.
However could it be the reason people speak up on issues such as this is because the motivation is that everyone can go to Heaven?

I don't know anyone on here of a Conservative bent that wishes any to be lost!

[Michlow]

Mich, I understand the point that you are making & we are not to judge others.
However could it be the reason people speak up on issues such as this is because the motivation is that everyone can go to Heaven?

I don't know anyone on here of a Conservative bent that wishes any to be lost!

My whole point Ron, is that ultimately it is between that person and God. I mean, if someone asks your opinion, then by all means, share your thoughts about it. But so many seem to stick their theology in other peoples' business ;)

I think that if everyone would just "work out their own salvation" and leave their neighbors' alone, the world would be a better place.

[Ron]

My whole point Ron, is that ultimately it is between that person and God. I mean, if someone asks your opinion, then by all means, share your thoughts about it. But so many seem to stick their theology in other peoples' business ;)

I think that if everyone would just "work out their own salvation" and leave their neighbors' alone, the world would be a better place.

Well, I agree, it is ultimately between a person and God & there is a fine line between sharing truth & meddling where people don't wish to be meddled.

Even Jesus said that if you are not received well, that we should shake the dust off of our shoes.

[TCSQ]

I must confess, I have not thought about a 400 lb evangelist, since I do not know of such a person.

If I did have knowledge of such a person, I would not make it my business to
police his food intake.



Well what about a missionary that weighed over SIX HUNDRED pounds and took four people to help PUSH him into a van? It was amazing to see that he was NEVER ONCE the target of any preaching on the SIN of gluttony but was kind of excused with the remarks like "He just likes a good meal" no the double standard absolutely has to be pointed out as so many people are being held to open ridicule and destruction while others who happen to be "In with the IN crowd" receive a blanket pass for much WORSE deeds then smoking or cutting their hair!!!!!

Oh OH!!!! That reminds me of the Hardliner whose daughter ran off in sin. She came back shortly there after and the remark was made by said Hardliner " Thank God! At least she didn't cut her HAIR!!!!" (said directly to me by aforementioned hardliner)

A little bizarre ,,,,,,don't YOU think???

[Michlow]

Well, I agree, it is ultimately between a person and God & there is a fine line between sharing truth & meddling where people don't wish to be meddled.

Even Jesus said that if you are not received well, that we should shake the dust off of our shoes.

Ahhh...you hit the nail on the head there Ron. "Sharing Truth". The ultimate problems is that one man's truth is another man's fable.

Ultimately that is why wars are fought. To prove that my truth is better than yours.

I know that sounds relativistic.

But honestly, only God knows the difference between good and evil, but we have been trying to determine it ourselves since the first bite of the infamous fruit.

Now you might argue....you are simply taking what God's word says is good and evil, and sharing that with the world at large. However, in truth, you are simply taking your interpretation of that word.

That is why it is so complex and messy. We try to give simple answers to complicated questions.

Only God, with his bird's eye view. Who see's not just our behavior, but our motivation. Who hears not just our words, but our thoughts. Who see's directly to our heart. Only he is capable of judging.

You might say for example, that a homosexual is a sinner. I, on the other hand, say that only God know's that person's genetics, the balance of their hormones, their life's experiences and the motivations of their heart.

So doesn't it just make sense, to leave it to Him?

[OnTheFritz]

EATING IS NOT A SIN. SMOKING IS A SIN. Being a glutton is sinful it is the excess that makes it a sin however smoking is a sin if you smoke ONE cigarette.

How so? What makes smoking one cigarette a sin?

[pelathais]

Jesus after teaching was asked "Who then can be saved." Mt.19:25 But on AFF then question is who can be lost. Baptism not essential, tongues a maybe, suck cigarettes and have the HGB, church attendance optional, no tithe paying, pastor is an abomination. Nothing is essential and anything is okay. It is impossible to be lost.

Elder, I am reading the handwritting on the wall, and it says.....

Carlton Pearson was here

:tease


:ursofunny
St Matt, you seem to take it that Steve Epley's post was made in jest. However, from the crankiness of his tone lately I would tend to take him more seriously.

So again I must ask - who ever said "Nothing is essential...?" And I really haven't ever seen anyone say that any "pastor is an abomination."

Methinks, the good elder has self-esteem issues that he needs some help with.

Perhaps if he were converted to the view that he can never do enough to be saved, and that his salvation rests entirely in the fact that God loves him for who he is, perhaps he would feel better about himself and others around him.

You don't deserve salvation, Mr. Epley. You didn't earn it and you cannot possibly work hard enough to maintain it. Your salvation is in Jesus Christ and the work that Jesus Christ alone can do for you.

It seems that whenever you forget this fact you tend to lash out at those around you with absurd accusations and taunts. Trust in Jesus Christ.

See John 1:29; John 12:32; 2 Corinthians 5:15; Revelation 5:9.

[pelathais]

Because of the nauseating effect that it has on me, smoking that one cigarette in my presence would be a sin. It would be cruel.

However, smoking a single cigarette may not always be "a sin." While growing up I knew of other kids' parents who forced them to smoke a cigarette - just to make certain they wouldn't take up the habit. I don't recommend this, but it seemed to invariably work.

Instead of slowly and carefully "sucking" on cigarettes and developing a tolerance and then a taste for the tobacco, these kids were forced into a sickening and dizzying experience that caused them to swear off tobacco forever. Again, I don't recommend it - but it seemed to be one way that worked to keep kids off of tobacco.

I knew a teacher who did the samething with vanilla extract. She told her kids that "this is what drinking alcohol is like..." and then she would force feed them a couple of tablespoons of vanilla extract. Those kids never drank alcohol.

So, in the endless world of hypotheticals, I suppose we might come up with a situation where smoking a single cigarette not only isn't a sin, but it might be a good thing.

That's the problem with "rules" and works based salvation. Everybody finds a loop hole in the end to do just about whatever they please anyhow. Just look at the sexapades of so many "holiness" minded types.

Far better to have a real relationship with God and to know His real holiness, then to fret over a "to do list" and imagine ways to get around things.

[TCSQ]

St Matt, you seem to take it that Steve Epley's post was made in jest. However, from the crankiness of his tone lately I would tend to take him more seriously.

So again I must ask - who ever said "Nothing is essential...?" And I really haven't ever seen anyone say that any "pastor is an abomination."

Methinks, the good elder has self-esteem issues that he needs some help with.

Perhaps if he were converted to the view that he can never do enough to be saved, and that his salvation rests entirely in the fact that God loves him for who he is, perhaps he would feel better about himself and others around him.

You don't deserve salvation, Mr. Epley. You didn't earn it and you cannot possibly work hard enough to maintain it. Your salvation is in Jesus Christ and the work that Jesus Christ alone can do for you.

It seems that whenever you forget this fact you tend to lash out at those around you with absurd accusations and taunts. Trust in Jesus Christ.

See John 1:29; John 12:32; 2 Corinthians 5:15; Revelation 5:9.


You mean to say that some of us have been cumbered about with much serving and that it was all for NOTHING???? You mean we can't POSSIBLY do enough good works to earn salvation???? You mean that our inability to live perfect flawless sin free lives does NOT mean that all of us are really doomed to the lake of fire? You HONESTLY expect us to BELIEVE that??? COME ON GET REAL!
Next thing you'll be telling us is that the Just shall by.....what.............FAITH??????

[StillStanding]

You mean to say that some of us have been cumbered about with much serving and that it was all for NOTHING???? You mean we can't POSSIBLY do enough good works to earn salvation???? You mean that our inability to live perfect flawless sin free lives does NOT mean that all of us are really doomed to the lake of fire? You HONESTLY expect us to BELIEVE that??? COME ON GET REAL!
Next thing you'll be telling us is that the Just shall by.....what.............FAITH??????

Enjoying your epiphany? :D

[Jermyn Davidson]

How so? What makes smoking one cigarette a sin?

As to say smoking one cigarette is not a sin, but smoking ten cogarettes is a sin? I guess smoking ten packs of cigarettes in one day is a BIG sin....

My friend, smoking one cigarette is indeed a sin.

[RandyWayne]

I'm sure glad fine cigars are ok!

[TRFrance]

Who cares if people smoke and still believe they are saved? Why are you so worried about that "sawdust" in their eye???

Question for you. Do you believe smoking is a sin?

[pelathais]

Question for you. Do you believe smoking is a sin?
Question for you - and I've never smoked a cigarette in my life - but since you seem to think smoking is a sin - why?

[Rico]

My whole point Ron, is that ultimately it is between that person and God. I mean, if someone asks your opinion, then by all means, share your thoughts about it. But so many seem to stick their theology in other peoples' business ;)

I think that if everyone would just "work out their own salvation" and leave their neighbors' alone, the world would be a better place.

I was thinking about this last night and realized something. It's one thing to say, "I believe someone who smokes cigarettes is in danger of going to Hell." It's another entirely to say, "Everyone who smokes is going to Hell." One is an opinion, the other is pronouncing judgment.

[pelathais]

I was thinking about this last night and realized something. It's one thing to say, "I believe someone who smokes cigarettes is in danger of going to Hell." It's another entirely to say, "Everyone who smokes is going to Hell." One is an opinion, the other is pronouncing judgment.
A fine line, perhaps... but an important one. I tend to agree with you here.

[Rico]

A fine line, perhaps... but an important one. I tend to agree with you here.


Pelathais, it's all in the approach, my friend. Watching the smoking thread unfold the way it has, and the reactions from others and myself, has helped me to better understand why you can have two people who think something is a sin express their opinion and one opinion be received as a door opener to discussion and the other be taken as judgmental.

[He's My Friend]

Well what about a missionary that weighed over SIX HUNDRED pounds and took four people to help PUSH him into a van? It was amazing to see that he was NEVER ONCE the target of any preaching on the SIN of gluttony but was kind of excused with the remarks like "He just likes a good meal" no the double standard absolutely has to be pointed out as so many people are being held to open ridicule and destruction while others who happen to be "In with the IN crowd" receive a blanket pass for much WORSE deeds then smoking or cutting their hair!!!!!

Oh OH!!!! That reminds me of the Hardliner whose daughter ran off in sin. She came back shortly there after and the remark was made by said Hardliner " Thank God! At least she didn't cut her HAIR!!!!" (said directly to me by aforementioned hardliner)

A little bizarre ,,,,,,don't YOU think???


My Friend,

I do not know anyone of the size you mentioned, but since you do, I would say that person needs a great deal of prayer.
You mention no one has preached to this person.

#1 Is it possible that he has been "preached" to, just not in you presence ?
# 2 Is it possible he has received counsel in private ?


Both are possible, as we don't always know what goes on behind closed doors.


The other instance you mentioned about the "Hardliners" daughter, I cannot comment to that, since I was not there to witness the entire conversation.


Blessings.

[Steve Epley]

Well here is 14 pages on an APOSTOLIC forum(?) discussing whether it is a sin to smoke? Interesting to say the least.

[1Corinth2v4]

According to many posters here, everyone can be saved. Your only requirement is to repent before you plane crashes, etc.


What's disturbing is many here don't believe you need Holy Ghost infilling to be saved. The only requirement is to repent before you plane crashes, and you're on your way to glory.




Ephesians 1:13-15

13)In .....ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The bible reads the Holy Ghost is the earnest of our inheritance until the day of redemption, we are sealed with the Holy Ghost.


But hey, what do you expect from a fast-food generation?

[pelathais]

Well here is 14 pages on an APOSTOLIC forum(?) discussing whether it is a sin to smoke? Interesting to say the least.
Did you read all 14 pages? Apparently not. And for those posts about smoking did you see the different angles?

Honestly bro, sometimes you seem to come across like a gossipy school girl with you blanket condemnations and rash generalizations.

[StMark]

Did you read all 14 pages? Apparently not. And for those posts about smoking did you see the different angles?

Honestly bro, sometimes you seem to come across like a gossipy school girl with you blanket condemnations and rash generalizations.



That was VERY Disrespecful

[pelathais]

That was VERY Disrespecful
:snapout

Are you angry with me because I have spoken the truth?

[Michlow]

Question for you. Do you believe smoking is a sin?

No, I don't. And this is an area "near and dear to my heart", you might say. I was a smoker when I was first introduced to Jesus. Some well meaning person told me that if I loved Jesus I wouldn't smoke. Which caused me a lot of unnecessary distress, and I credit this as one of the main things that lead me off on a wrong tangent (of following rules, rather than following Jesus).

At some point (because I was following the rules, not Jesus), I rebelled and started smoking again. After about 8 months, I quit again. (Monday will actually be the 3 year anniversary). However, I still quit for the wrong reasons, i.e. ultimately I thought it would send me to hell.

For the record, though I no longer think it a sin, or something that will send me to hell, and though I still have the desire to smoke quite frequently, I do not start again. Because I do recognize that it's not good for my health, and I have enough health issues without adding to them of my own accord.

I was thinking about this last night and realized something. It's one thing to say, "I believe someone who smokes cigarettes is in danger of going to Hell." It's another entirely to say, "Everyone who smokes is going to Hell." One is an opinion, the other is pronouncing judgment.

It's still not my first choice, but It is is a thousand times better than the alternative. What is something I might like better? "I feel like God has shown me that because smoking is addictive, and causes unnecessary harm to my body, that it would be wrong for me to do."

I think this pretty much covers the bases in a non-accusatory manner. You are making it about yourself and God, and you are leaving the whole hell thing out of it.

I think people concentrate on hell so much in order to strengthen their arguements. It's the ultimate "my dad can beat up your dad". I think the focus should be on an individuals relationship with God, and learning to listen to his voice. I personally feel that when you bring the whole hell thing in, you are just building on an individuals fear of God. Of course, I am personally, and extremely biased in this area, due to my own experiences.

[TRFrance]

Question for you - and I've never smoked a cigarette in my life - but since you seem to think smoking is a sin - why?
Yes I do. I believe it is highly displeasing to God.

As to your question "why?"... there are multiple reasons I could state. But I'll keep it simple.

There's an article I cam across on the net which deals with the issue. Although writer is not Apostolic, I'd say most of his points in this article echo my own views on the topic: http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/smoking.html

[Nina]

Nina,

In all honesty, that is a lot of "supposing".

If YOU know of such a person, why don't you confront that person?

Have you confronted him ? Are you feeling convicted to confront him ?


I don't know him personally, but don't You think that if his friends had confronted him, he'd have lost the weight that is so besetting to him?

What a testimony he would have to other Apostolics who are caught in this same sin.

My concern is that the standard is applied differently depending on the sin.

And, for me, smoking WAS a sin.
As much a sin as gluttony.

Known smokers would NEVER be allowed to preach in an Apostolic pulpit,

But,

Known gluttons are held in high esteem.

Nina

[mizpeh]

Yes I do. I believe it is highly displeasing to God.

As to your question "why?"... there are multiple reasons I could state. But I'll keep it simple.

There's an article I cam across on the net which deals with the issue. Although writer is not Apostolic, I'd say most of his points in this article echo my own views on the topic: http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/smoking.html

Good article! Thanks for posting the link.

[MissBrattified]

Well here is 14 pages on an APOSTOLIC forum(?) discussing whether it is a sin to smoke? Interesting to say the least.

Well, to be fair, the posts are just "yes", "no", "Maybe" or "I don't know." There are some pretty interesting perspectives.

Plus, I think most of us agree that smoking (or any similar unhealthy or bad habit) is bad for a Christian. This thread explores the whys and reasons, mostly.

It's not as bad as all that, Bro. Epley. I don't think anyone here supports smoking, unless I misread a post. :)

[TRFrance]

Good article! Thanks for posting the link.
Sure.
I thought it was very well written. This writer dealt with the topic very well.

In the end though, sometimes I think people will never be convinced that something is true if they have a vested interest in NOT being convinced it's true. Often, people will let their own preferences, agenda, or lifestyle influence their interpretation of clear scripture and/or scriptural principle. In the end, people can try to rationalize any kind of behavior if they want to. Case in point: Gay Apostolic churches.

But lemme not even get started on that.

[Jermyn Davidson]

According to many posters here, everyone can be saved. Your only requirement is to repent before you plane crashes, etc.


What's disturbing is many here don't believe you need Holy Ghost infilling to be saved. The only requirement is to repent before you plane crashes, and you're on your way to glory.




Ephesians 1:13-15

13)In .....ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The bible reads the Holy Ghost is the earnest of our inheritance until the day of redemption, we are sealed with the Holy Ghost.


But hey, what do you expect from a fast-food generation?


I have heard people use this scripture to support the "once saved, always saved" argument too.

It's the kindness of the Lord that leads one to repentance. Just because a person prays and says, "Lord, I'm sorry. Please forgive me--" that doesn't mean that they have truly repented.

God draws a person to faith and repentance, not situations. If God doesn't draw you, fast death or slow death, you will die in your sins.

Repentance is commanded.
Baptism is commanded.
The Holy Ghost is PROMISED-- all I can do is seek God and wait for Him to bless me with His Promise. I can't just make up my mind and go do it.

[TRFrance]

According to many posters here, everyone can be saved. Your only requirement is to repent before you plane crashes, etc.

What's disturbing is many here don't believe you need Holy Ghost infilling to be saved. The only requirement is to repent before you plane crashes, and you're on your way to glory.

Well not only is repentance enough to some people...but someone clearly said on another thread (http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=525664&postcount=7) that if the man had the intention to repent, then God looks at that as repentance.
Repentance is a frame of mind. If he planned to repent in front of his earthly father, he has repented to God.
So now planning to repent is equivalent to repenting, in the sight of God?

Is that how far Apostolic doctrine can drift?

From: Salvation = Repentance + be baptized + receive the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues.
To: Salvation= Repentance + be baptized .... Holy Ghost is optional
To: Salvation= Repentance. baptism is good too, but not part of salvation. Its important though, at least for obedience's sake, so get it done. HG also good but optional.
Or: Salvation= Repentance. Baptism is just sign of an outward change. Not such a big deal if you dont get baptized, but do it when you can.

To now: Salvation= having the intention to repent. Even if you don't get around to actually repenting, God will consider you saved because you were really planning to do it.

[StillStanding]

Well not only is repentance enough to some people...but someone clearly said on another thread (http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=525664&postcount=7) that if the man had the intention to repent, then God looks at that as repentance.

So now planning to repent is equivalent to repenting, in the sight of God?

Is that how far Apostolic doctrine can drift?

From: Salvation = Repentance + be baptized + receive the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues.
To: Salvation= Repentance + be baptized .... Holy Ghost is optional
To: Salvation= Repentance. baptism is good too, but not part of salvation. Its important though, at least for obedience's sake, so get it done. HG also good but optional.
Or: Salvation= Repentance. Baptism is just sign of an outward change. Not such a big deal if you dont get baptized, but do it when you can.

To now: Salvation= having the intention to repent. Even if you don't get around to actually repenting, God will consider you saved because you were really planning to do it.

You twisted my words, brother! :snapout

I don't believe an atheist can plan to convert on a particular day in the future. If he plans to convert, he has already converted! He can only plan to repent openly in front of his earthly father.

Repentance is a heart issue, so his plan to vocally repent in front of his father is after the fact. He obviously has already repented in his heart in able to plan to repent in front of his father!

Again, repentance is not saying out loud, "I repent!' Repentance actually happened before the words got out of his mouth!

[CC1]

The idea that someone can "plan" to repent later at a specific time and place is pretty weird to me.

Anyone truly at the point of desiring to repent would do so right then and there, not wait for a later date. It is a heart and mind matter not one dealing with a calendar.

The very premise that was given was flawed and unrealistic.

[TRFrance]

You twisted my words, brother! :snapout

I don't believe an atheist can plan to convert on a particular day in the future. If he plans to convert, he has already converted! He can only plan to repent openly in front of his earthly father.

Repentance is a heart issue, so his plan to vocally repent in front of his father is after the fact. He obviously has already repented in his heart in able to plan to repent in front of his father!

Again, repentance is not saying out loud, "I repent!' Repentance actually happened before the words got out of his mouth!
No one twisted your words. You've made yourself very clear, and I understand what you're saying. I just strongly disagree.

A man who sees the need to convert, and thus plans to do so, has not crossed over into a converted state just because he plans to. He converts when he actually converts, not before.

By your own words, you equated having the intention to repent, with repenting itself:
Repentance is a frame of mind. If he planned to repent in front of his earthly father, he has repented to God.
But intention to repent is not repentance in and of itself, as your words would imply. Those are 2 distinctly separate things.

Indeed, it is the Spirit of God that open our spiritual eyes to the need for repentance, and creates in us the intention to repent. And indeed, a person can repent before God without necessarily uttering "I repent, I'm sorry" etc., although most of us do/did.

But after one recognizes the need of repentance, having the intention to repent is something that precedes repentance itself.

No amount of semantics can get around that simple fact.

[RevDWW]

You twisted my words, brother! :snapout

I don't believe an atheist can plan to convert on a particular day in the future. If he plans to convert, he has already converted! He can only plan to repent openly in front of his earthly father.

Repentance is a heart issue, so his plan to vocally repent in front of his father is after the fact. He obviously has already repented in his heart in able to plan to repent in front of his father!

Again, repentance is not saying out loud, "I repent!' Repentance actually happened before the words got out of his mouth!

Isn't repentance turning around and going in the opposite direction?

[StillStanding]

No one twisted your words. You've made yourself very clear, and I understand what you're saying. I just strongly disagree.

A man who sees the need to convert, and thus plans to convert, has not crossed over into a converted state just because he plans to. He converts when he actually converts, not before.

By your own words, you equated having the intention to repent, with repenting itself:

But intention to repent is not repentance in and of itself, as your words would imply. Those are 2 distinctly separate things.

Indeed, it is the Spirit of God that open our spiritual eyes to the need for repentance, and creates in us the intention to repent. And indeed, a person can repent before God without necessarily uttering "I repent, I'm sorry" etc., although most of us do/did.

But after one recognizes the need of repentance, having the intention to repent is something that precedes repentance itself.

No amount of semantics can get around that simple fact.

What I'm saying is that if you plan to repent at a certain time and date openly before men, you have already repented in your heart.

You are trying to change my words to say that one is planning to repent in their heart to God in the future. In this situation, one could be lost if they plan to repent tommorrow for a wild time they are having tonight! In this case, they have not repented in their heart or else they would not do what they are planning to do!

Also keep in mind that publically repenting is not necessarily repenting. I've seen this happen many times where someone went back to the way they were doing things the very next day!

[RevDWW]

What I'm saying is that if you plan to repent at a certain time and date openly before men, you have already repented in your heart.

You are trying to change my words to say that one is planning to repent in their heart to God in the future. In this situation, one could be lost if they plan to repent tommorrow for a wild time they are having tonight! In this case, they have not repented in their heart or else they would not do what they are planning to do!

Also keep in mind that publically repenting is not necessarily repenting. I've seen this happen many times where someone went back to the way they were doing things the very next day!
Why would one wait for a "certain time and date to openly repent"?

[StillStanding]

Why would one wait for a "certain time and date to openly repent"?
The original post was about a guy on an airplane that planned to repent in front of his father, and the plane crashed before he had a chance. Of course the story is hypothetical.

I say it's impossible to plan to repent and convert from Atheism in your heart at a future date and time!

[TRFrance]

What I'm saying is that if you plan to repent at a certain time and date openly before men, you have already repented in your heart.

You are trying to change my words to say that one is planning to repent in their heart to God in the future. In this situation, one could be lost if they plan to repent tomorrow for a wild time they are having tonight! In this case, they have not repented in their heart or else they would not do what they are planning to do!

Also keep in mind that publicly repenting is not necessarily repenting. I've seen this happen many times where someone went back to the way they were doing things the very next day!
I'm thinking that maybe you're forgetting the original scenario in question, as posted by 1Corinth (http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=525649&postcount=1)..." There's an atheist, the son of a Pentecostal preacher traveling via airplane and finally accepts the message of Jesus Christ. The atheist states he'll repent of his sins after landing, while in the presence of his father, and the airplane then explodes in mid-air."
He accepted the message of truth, and stated he would repent of his sins later, but died before ever doing so. (But it did not say he repented in his heart, and intended to make public confession of it later in his father's presence.) In this scenario, he intended to repent of his sins, but never did.
And that makes all the difference.

[StillStanding]

I'm thinking that maybe you're forgetting the original scenario in question, as posted by 1Corinth (http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=525649&postcount=1)..." There's an atheist, the son of a Pentecostal preacher traveling via airplane and finally accepts the message of Jesus Christ. The atheist states he'll repent of his sins after landing, while in the presence of his father, and the airplane then explodes in mid-air."
He accepted the message of truth, and stated he would repent of his sins later, but died before ever doing so. (But it did not say he repented in his heart, and intended to make public confession of it later in his father's presence.) In this scenario, he intended to repent of his sins, but never did.
And that makes all the difference.

An Atheist CAN NOT accept the message of the truth without repenting! You tell me....how is it possible for an Atheist to convert to Christianity without repenting? (turning away) One can't be an atheist and Christian at the same time! It has to be one or the other. An atheist CAN NOT plan to repent and convert at a given time and place. If he plans to convert, he has already converted!

The hypothetical situation mentioned is an impossibility!

[stmatthew]

An Atheist CAN NOT accept the message of the truth without repenting! You tell me....how is it possible for an Atheist to convert to Christianity without repenting? (turning away) One can't be an atheist and Christian at the same time! It has to be one or the other. An atheist CAN NOT plan to repent and convert at a given time and place. If he plans to convert, he has already converted!

The hypothetical situation mentioned is an impossibility!

Just like most of the other hypothetical questions on here? I think if we would just stick with the bible, instead of trying to bring all these hypothetical questions into the equation, we would do well.


Too much rabbit chasing going on around here.

[RevDWW]

Just like most of the other hypothetical questions on here? I think if we would just stick with the bible, instead of trying to bring all these hypothetical questions into the equation, we would do well.


Too much rabbit chasing going on around here.

Well said. I believe that God in His infinite wisdom and power can see to it that a plane does not crash if He doesn't want it to crash. No one is promised tomorrow, we just have the here and now. So if you are going to repent do so while there is time.

[Ron]

Well said. I believe that God in His infinite wisdom and power can see to it that a plane does not crash if He doesn't want it to crash. No one is promised tomorrow, we just have the here and now. So if you are going to repent do so while there is time.

So true!

[Brad Murphy]

Don't worry, you guys have me convinced that I am lost, so don't think that all the years of fire and brimstone didn't work... (although it may have worked too well since I don't see any way to NOT be lost...)

[TCSQ]

Enjoying your epiphany? :D




Actually YES I AM! I can't begin to tell you how wonderful it is to dump all the fear and doubt and just realize that CALVARY WORKS because of JESUS not because of my ability to implement this point or that point! Kind of like if you try and keep the law but offend in one POINT you are guilty of it all! Thank God I have a saviour! And NO I have NOT thrown away ANY of the principles of Godly living that the Word Of God contains, but have come to realize that they are IDEALS that we may or may NOT reach in this life and just like Paul, after preaching and teaching them I COUNT NOT ****MYSELF**** to have apprehended or acheived that IDEAL failure free existence yet, BUT THIS ONE THING I DO DO....***FORGETTING**** the things that are past (All the failures of yesterday) I still am shooting for the ideal. BUT I will NO LONGER obsess on that, beat myself OR OTHERS up over that.

There is a Pastor in California who God used to bring me back to that very FIRST love, and he is incredible! We were talking about a half a year ago now and he asked me "Do you know how Pharaoh determined the value of a slave???? By how many BRICKS he could produce! But the value of a son is determined by HOW MUCH HIS FATHER LOVES HIM AND NOTHING ELSE!!!! Our probelm is that so many of us are SLAVES cranking out bricks trying to display our value to God and so few are SONS just feeling free to walk up to our Dad and throw our arms around his neck, kiss it and whisper Dad I sure do Love you, and then just bask in HIS wonderful and freely given and certainly UNDESERVED LOVE" And I will tell you in a flash it all fell off of me! All the fear that the Lord would come and I wouldnt be ready, all the self inflicted loathing that I just wasn't doing enough or perfect enough, and ...oh yeah this is SO COOL!

He ( the pastor) brought out this question, "Do you know WHY God chose David King of Israel????? David tells us himself, "Because He LIKED ME!!!!" And you know My God LIKES me! My father LOVES me , and I love him and NO ONE is going to have the right any more to intrude into that sacred relationship and tell ME that I am or am NOT right with my God based on their ignorant and idiotic idiosyncrasies! Preach the WORD and I will listen and pray that God help me to implement it in my life, but no more of this ....krap about belt buckles or wedding rings or mustaches or christmas trees or or or!!! It simply AINT gonna happen anymore! I am NO LONGER A SLAVE I AM A SON OF GOD so................................................ .........................

***NO MORE BRICKS!!!!**************************************


What an EPIPHANY huh?! Its great and my walk with God has never been closer better or more enjoyable ! He WILL finish the work he has begun in me its a done deal! Calvary Works!

[crakjak]

Don't worry, you guys have me convinced that I am lost, so don't think that all the years of fire and brimstone didn't work... (although it may have worked too well since I don't see any way to NOT be lost...)

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

[Whole Hearted]

Elder according to most on this forum the only ones who will be lost are the conservatives, everyone else is covered by grace and will be saved.

[StillStanding]

Actually YES I AM! I can't begin to tell you how wonderful it is to dump all the fear and doubt and just realize that CALVARY WORKS because of JESUS not because of my ability to implement this point or that point! Kind of like if you try and keep the law but offend in one POINT you are guilty of it all! Thank God I have a saviour! And NO I have NOT thrown away ANY of the principles of Godly living that the Word Of God contains, but have come to realize that they are IDEALS that we may or may NOT reach in this life and just like Paul, after preaching and teaching them I COUNT NOT ****MYSELF**** to have apprehended or acheived that IDEAL failure free existence yet, BUT THIS ONE THING I DO DO....***FORGETTING**** the things that are past (All the failures of yesterday) I still am shooting for the ideal. BUT I will NO LONGER obsess on that, beat myself OR OTHERS up over that.

There is a Pastor in California who God used to bring me back to that very FIRST love, and he is incredible! We were talking about a half a year ago now and he asked me "Do you know how Pharaoh determined the value of a slave???? By how many BRICKS he could produce! But the value of a son is determined by HOW MUCH HIS FATHER LOVES HIM AND NOTHING ELSE!!!! Our probelm is that so many of us are SLAVES cranking out bricks trying to display our value to God and so few are SONS just feeling free to walk up to our Dad and throw our arms around his neck, kiss it and whisper Dad I sure do Love you, and then just bask in HIS wonderful and freely given and certainly UNDESERVED LOVE" And I will tell you in a flash it all fell off of me! All the fear that the Lord would come and I wouldnt be ready, all the self inflicted loathing that I just wasn't doing enough or perfect enough, and ...oh yeah this is SO COOL!

He ( the pastor) brought out this question, "Do you know WHY God chose David King of Israel????? David tells us himself, "Because He LIKED ME!!!!" And you know My God LIKES me! My father LOVES me , and I love him and NO ONE is going to have the right any more to intrude into that sacred relationship and tell ME that I am or am NOT right with my God based on their ignorant and idiotic idiosyncrasies! Preach the WORD and I will listen and pray that God help me to implement it in my life, but no more of this ....krap about belt buckles or wedding rings or mustaches or christmas trees or or or!!! It simply AINT gonna happen anymore! I am NO LONGER A SLAVE I AM A SON OF GOD so................................................ .........................

***NO MORE BRICKS!!!!**************************************


What an EPIPHANY huh?! Its great and my walk with God has never been closer better or more enjoyable ! He WILL finish the work he has begun in me its a done deal! Calvary Works!
Wow! Great post! :hanky That will preach!

[TCSQ]

Elder according to most on this forum the only ones who will be lost are the conservatives, everyone else is covered by grace and will be saved.



The sad thing is that some of the MOST conservative are that way because deep down inside they have never understood that the just shall live by FAITH, Faith that JESUS is as the song says OUR WISDOM AND PERFECTION OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS AND POWER...and they try to merit their salvation by how closely and flawlessly they can follow all the works that God calls us to.

The sad and demonstrable thing is that some of the MOST ultra conservative men finally come to the place where they realize that they are doing all they can and THEN SOME and NONE of it saves, and so they just chuck it all and swing to the other extreme!

I have ran with nothing BUT Ultraconservative or make that ULTRA ULTRA conservative men (better make that ULTRA ULTRA ULTRA CONSERVATIVE men) for the last EIGHTEEN YEARS and I find them to be some of the most fearful, insecure, obsessed with straining out every gnat while swallowing camels basket cases I have know either IN or OUT of church.

[pelathais]

Don't worry, you guys have me convinced that I am lost, so don't think that all the years of fire and brimstone didn't work... (although it may have worked too well since I don't see any way to NOT be lost...)
You know, I kinda like where you're coming from, Brad.

And for SE and the others: No, Brad isn't advocating Satan worship and ritual human sacrifice and murder. He's just expressing a very real and profound disappointment with the religious establishment that seems all too willing to make those human sacrifices.

[pelathais]

Elder according to most on this forum the only ones who will be lost are the conservatives, everyone else is covered by grace and will be saved.
That's the kind of dishonesty that just might get a person lost, WH. :snapout

You know as well as I do that's not true. Why don't you eat half a candy bar and drink some fruit juice. If you immediately feel better - see your doctor.

There's got to be a reason why you guys refuse to discuss things intelligently and instead you fall off into a melancholy that seems to overwhelm you.

[mizpeh]

Actually YES I AM! I can't begin to tell you how wonderful it is to dump all the fear and doubt and just realize that CALVARY WORKS because of JESUS not because of my ability to implement this point or that point! Kind of like if you try and keep the law but offend in one POINT you are guilty of it all! Thank God I have a saviour! And NO I have NOT thrown away ANY of the principles of Godly living that the Word Of God contains, but have come to realize that they are IDEALS that we may or may NOT reach in this life and just like Paul, after preaching and teaching them I COUNT NOT ****MYSELF**** to have apprehended or acheived that IDEAL failure free existence yet, BUT THIS ONE THING I DO DO....***FORGETTING**** the things that are past (All the failures of yesterday) I still am shooting for the ideal. BUT I will NO LONGER obsess on that, beat myself OR OTHERS up over that.

There is a Pastor in California who God used to bring me back to that very FIRST love, and he is incredible! We were talking about a half a year ago now and he asked me "Do you know how Pharaoh determined the value of a slave???? By how many BRICKS he could produce! But the value of a son is determined by HOW MUCH HIS FATHER LOVES HIM AND NOTHING ELSE!!!! Our probelm is that so many of us are SLAVES cranking out bricks trying to display our value to God and so few are SONS just feeling free to walk up to our Dad and throw our arms around his neck, kiss it and whisper Dad I sure do Love you, and then just bask in HIS wonderful and freely given and certainly UNDESERVED LOVE" And I will tell you in a flash it all fell off of me! All the fear that the Lord would come and I wouldnt be ready, all the self inflicted loathing that I just wasn't doing enough or perfect enough, and ...oh yeah this is SO COOL!

He ( the pastor) brought out this question, "Do you know WHY God chose David King of Israel????? David tells us himself, "Because He LIKED ME!!!!" And you know My God LIKES me! My father LOVES me , and I love him and NO ONE is going to have the right any more to intrude into that sacred relationship and tell ME that I am or am NOT right with my God based on their ignorant and idiotic idiosyncrasies! Preach the WORD and I will listen and pray that God help me to implement it in my life, but no more of this ....krap about belt buckles or wedding rings or mustaches or christmas trees or or or!!! It simply AINT gonna happen anymore! I am NO LONGER A SLAVE I AM A SON OF GOD so................................................ .........................

***NO MORE BRICKS!!!!**************************************


What an EPIPHANY huh?! Its great and my walk with God has never been closer better or more enjoyable ! He WILL finish the work he has begun in me its a done deal! Calvary Works!

This post made me smile. :)

The blood will never lose its power.......

[pelathais]

The sad thing is that some of the MOST conservative are that way because deep down inside they have never understood that the just shall live by FAITH, Faith that JESUS is as the song says OUR WISDOM AND PERFECTION OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS AND POWER...and they try to merit their salvation by how closely and flawlessly they can follow all the works that God calls us to.

The sad and demonstrable thing is that some of the MOST ultra conservative men finally come to the place where they realize that they are doing all they can and THEN SOME and NONE of it saves, and so they just chuck it all and swing to the other extreme!

I have ran with nothing BUT Ultraconservative or make that ULTRA ULTRA conservative men (better make that ULTRA ULTRA ULTRA CONSERVATIVE men) for the last EIGHTEEN YEARS and I find them to be some of the most fearful, insecure, obsessed with straining out every gnat while swallowing camels basket cases I have know either IN or OUT of church.

:thumbsup :yourock :thumbsup I ran with the same crowd - maybe we know some of the same people?

[TCSQ]

:thumbsup :yourock :thumbsup I ran with the same crowd - maybe we know some of the same people?


Could be...could be. Email me off group and tell me who you are and I will do the same (Never can be too careful...there are a lot of guys out there with VERY sharp axes and I like my head, you might say I 've grown very attached to it!) Who knows, we might even (YIKES) Know each other!

[TRFrance]

An Atheist CAN NOT accept the message of the truth without repenting! You tell me....how is it possible for an Atheist to convert to Christianity without repenting? (turning away) One can't be an atheist and Christian at the same time! It has to be one or the other. An atheist CAN NOT plan to repent and convert at a given time and place. If he plans to convert, he has already converted!

The hypothetical situation mentioned is an impossibility!
You're missing missing something rather obvious here.

Accepting a message as being true is not the same as repenting of one's sins. To accept the message as true is to believe. To repent is to turn around, and turn away from sin. They are 2 very different things.One follows the other. Belief leads to repentance. But it is not biblical that belief=repentance, which is what your thinking on this boils down to.

And Acts 2 shows a clear biblical example of this. The men of Israel heard Peter's gospel message, and believed it, accepting it as being true, but still asked what they should do. It was afterward that Peter instructed them to repent, etc.which they subsequently did. Clearly we see demonstrated here that believing and repenting are 2 very different things. I don't know why you don't see that.

I have witnessed to many people who have believed the gospel as I presented it to them, but never took the next step to repent. And many former atheists will tell you that they first came to a place of belief, before later repenting and turning their life over to Christ. As a former atheist myself I know this to be true.

Somehow you have this idea that deciding to repent is synonymous with actual repentance taking place; Not true at all. But if you don't the clear distinction between believing and repenting, then at this point we're pretty much going to be talking past each other. I cant make the distinction any plainer. Your position on this is highly biblical.

[RandyWayne]

There is a Pastor in California who God used to bring me back to that very FIRST love, and he is incredible! We were talking about a half a year ago now and he asked me "Do you know how Pharaoh determined the value of a slave???? By how many BRICKS he could produce! But the value of a son is determined by HOW MUCH HIS FATHER LOVES HIM AND NOTHING ELSE!!!! Our probelm is that so many of us are SLAVES cranking out bricks trying to display our value to God and so few are SONS just feeling free to walk up to our Dad and throw our arms around his neck, kiss it and whisper Dad I sure do Love you, and then just bask in HIS wonderful and freely given and certainly UNDESERVED LOVE" And I will tell you in a flash it all fell off of me! All the fear that the Lord would come and I wouldnt be ready, all the self inflicted loathing that I just wasn't doing enough or perfect enough, and ...oh yeah this is SO COOL!


The ultra conservative will now say "But the son will SHOW his love by trying to lay as many bricks as he possibly can!".

Great post by the way!

[theoldpaths]

Cut hair. I believe it actually refers to a specific hairstyle of cut hair on women back from the first part of the 20th century. Since those AMF types like Elder Epley live in that era in their minds (LOL) I think they use that term to apply generically to cut hair on women.

If that is true, then I am in total agreement that the bible teaches that a woman's hair is given her for a covering and that for a woman to pray uncovered means that she has removed some/all of her covering.

[hometown guy]

If that is true, then I am in total agreement that the bible teaches that a woman's hair is given her for a covering and that for a woman to pray uncovered means that she has removed some/all of her covering.

Paul and I also agree.

[Carpenter]

If that is true, then I am in total agreement that the bible teaches that a woman's hair is given her for a covering and that for a woman to pray uncovered means that she has removed some/all of her covering.

...if that is what you think the bible says, you are not in agreement with the actual Bible.

[theoldpaths]

Elder according to most on this forum the only ones who will be lost are the conservatives, everyone else is covered by grace and will be saved.

Covered by grace - that kinda reminds me of...

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jude encouraged them to contend for the faith (truth) which was once delivered unto the saints. Progressive revelation? Progressive truth? I don't think so; we are to contend for the original faith/truth.

Kinda reminds me of Jesus telling Peter 3 times to feed his sheep and Paul telling the elders of Ephesus to feed the flock.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Its so interesting that the wolves wait unto strong leadership has departed before they enter in among them. I wonder why that is?

Notice in Jude that he said that they would creep in unawares; how could they creep in unawares? By being hypocrites - pretenders.

You see Paul knew that some would depart from the faith.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

They would depart from the faith, but notice that they would not go back to being regular sinners - they would somehow still FORBID & COMMAND some things. How could they do this?

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Because after departing from the faith, they would get their own teachers and start their own NEW denomination. Does history record a group that departed from the faith and started their own new thing, but not under the God-given authority that Jesus set up? Yes it does...

By 70-75 AD a New or NeoChristian Church was produced which was in a Greek dress of Hellenism and went on to become the Catholic Church - O.W. Heick, A History of Christian Thought, Vol. 1, Fortress Press, Pa., 1965, 1st ed., p.46; Adolf Harnack, What is Christiannity, NY, Harper, 1957, p.221

But for this group, was it enough to just separate from the apostolics and do their own thing separate from the apostolics?

Jude wrote that they would creep in unawares among the apostolics, among God's chosen people. It wouldn't be obvious on the outside, because they creep in unawares. But one of the characteristics that they would show is to turn the grace of God into lasciviousness - turning the grace of God into lawlessness. Imagine that, they creep in unawares among the apostolics, but the example that they show is to turn the grace of God into lawlessness.

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Paul also wrote that they would enter in among them and some on the inside would even be turned and would speak perverse (distort, misinterpret, corrupt) things to WHAT? DRAW AWAY disciples after them.

So it isn't enough that they departed from the faith and started their own new denomination and did their own thing, but they want to come in around the apostolics who have NOT departed from the faith and want to draw them away after them. Perhaps by drawing away diciples after them, it might make them feel better that they've done the right thing by departing from where God planted them.

Did Peter have to say something along the same lines? Let us see...

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

As Paul said that even some of them would rise up, Peter said that there would be false teachers among them - among apostolics - among God's chosen people; somehow subverted.

And look what they try and do. Even tho they are false teachers - they have been subverted, they now teach something different than the true teachers; but its not enough for them to depart and do their own thing. No, they have to come to the apostolics who have NOT departed from the faith and cause many to follow their destructive ways. Why did they cause many to follow their destructive ways? BY REASON OF WHOM THE WAY OF TRUTH SHALL BE EVIL SPOKEN OF.

Kinda reminds me when Jeroboam rebelled from under the God-given authority of Rehoboam and put away the Levites - God's chosen ministry - and started up their own kingdom and their own ministry and told the people that it was TOO MUCH for them to go to Jerusalem to worship. Too much, too hard, you don't have to do all that when you can just do this.

So why was it so important for Jesus to tell Peter 3 times to feed his sheep and for Paul to tell the elder of Ephesus to feed the flock? So that they would know truth, they would know what is expected, there would be no question. That way, when someone creeps in and shows a different example, a different lifestyle, the flock would not be taken in. That's also why Paul told Timothy to preach the word and to be instantly ready and to reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. So that when they see the people not obeying or sinning or doing something that is different from the truth that is taught, they would be rebuked and ashamed, and repent and get back on course.

What did Paul write about those who walked disorderly?...

2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

[theoldpaths]

Actually YES I AM! I can't begin to tell you how wonderful it is to dump all the fear and doubt and just realize that CALVARY WORKS because of JESUS not because of my ability to implement this point or that point! Kind of like if you try and keep the law but offend in one POINT you are guilty of it all! Thank God I have a saviour! And NO I have NOT thrown away ANY of the principles of Godly living that the Word Of God contains, but have come to realize that they are IDEALS that we may or may NOT reach in this life and just like Paul, after preaching and teaching them I COUNT NOT ****MYSELF**** to have apprehended or acheived that IDEAL failure free existence yet, BUT THIS ONE THING I DO DO....***FORGETTING**** the things that are past (All the failures of yesterday) I still am shooting for the ideal. BUT I will NO LONGER obsess on that, beat myself OR OTHERS up over that.

There is a Pastor in California who God used to bring me back to that very FIRST love, and he is incredible! We were talking about a half a year ago now and he asked me "Do you know how Pharaoh determined the value of a slave???? By how many BRICKS he could produce! But the value of a son is determined by HOW MUCH HIS FATHER LOVES HIM AND NOTHING ELSE!!!! Our probelm is that so many of us are SLAVES cranking out bricks trying to display our value to God and so few are SONS just feeling free to walk up to our Dad and throw our arms around his neck, kiss it and whisper Dad I sure do Love you, and then just bask in HIS wonderful and freely given and certainly UNDESERVED LOVE" And I will tell you in a flash it all fell off of me! All the fear that the Lord would come and I wouldnt be ready, all the self inflicted loathing that I just wasn't doing enough or perfect enough, and ...oh yeah this is SO COOL!

He ( the pastor) brought out this question, "Do you know WHY God chose David King of Israel????? David tells us himself, "Because He LIKED ME!!!!" And you know My God LIKES me! My father LOVES me , and I love him and NO ONE is going to have the right any more to intrude into that sacred relationship and tell ME that I am or am NOT right with my God based on their ignorant and idiotic idiosyncrasies! Preach the WORD and I will listen and pray that God help me to implement it in my life, but no more of this ....krap about belt buckles or wedding rings or mustaches or christmas trees or or or!!! It simply AINT gonna happen anymore! I am NO LONGER A SLAVE I AM A SON OF GOD so................................................ .........................

***NO MORE BRICKS!!!!**************************************


What an EPIPHANY huh?! Its great and my walk with God has never been closer better or more enjoyable ! He WILL finish the work he has begun in me its a done deal! Calvary Works!

God also choose King Saul but afterward rejected him.

[theoldpaths]

The sad thing is that some of the MOST conservative are that way because deep down inside they have never understood that the just shall live by FAITH, Faith that JESUS is as the song says OUR WISDOM AND PERFECTION OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS AND POWER...and they try to merit their salvation by how closely and flawlessly they can follow all the works that God calls us to.

The sad and demonstrable thing is that some of the MOST ultra conservative men finally come to the place where they realize that they are doing all they can and THEN SOME and NONE of it saves, and so they just chuck it all and swing to the other extreme!

I have ran with nothing BUT Ultraconservative or make that ULTRA ULTRA conservative men (better make that ULTRA ULTRA ULTRA CONSERVATIVE men) for the last EIGHTEEN YEARS and I find them to be some of the most fearful, insecure, obsessed with straining out every gnat while swallowing camels basket cases I have know either IN or OUT of church.

1 Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
Romans 12:1 - I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
1 John 2:15 - Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Romans 6:19 - I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
2 Corinthians 7:1 - Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 - To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Hebrews 12:14 - Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Ephesians 5:27 - That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Isaiah 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
Isaiah 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
Isaiah 35:6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
Isaiah 35:7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
Isaiah 35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
Isaiah 35:9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

Blameless - I wonder if some considered Peter, Paul, etc ultra-conservatives?

[Steve Epley]

Bump.

[rgcraig]

Men because they won't stop for directions!

[Steve Epley]

Men because they won't stop for directions!

Honestly there is a point.:whistle

[Sam]

Men because they won't stop for directions!

I have a Tee shirt which says:

Real men don't ask for directions
They let their wives do it.

[rgcraig]

I have a Tee shirt which says:

Real men don't ask for directions
They let their wives do it.

Too cute!

[OneAccord]

Good question, Elder Epley. Who CAN be lost? I thought about helping you out by going thru the Bible to list the many verses that tells us who will be lost, but, to save time and space, I found one verse that sums it all up. This one verse will answer your question:



Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Sorry, though, I won't be able to tell you whose names are, or are not, written in the Book of Life. Thats a job I think we should leave up to the Judge.

[OneAccord]

Good question, Elder Epley. Who CAN be lost? I thought about helping you out by going thru the Bible to list the many verses that tells us who will be lost, but, to save time and space, I found one verse that sums it all up. This one verse will answer your question:



Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Sorry, though, I won't be able to tell you whose names are, or are not, written in the Book of Life. Thats a job I think we should leave up to the Judge.

Bump for Elder Epley.

[Steve Epley]

[QUOTE=OneAccord;605041]Good question, Elder Epley. Who CAN be lost? I thought about helping you out by going thru the Bible to list the many verses that tells us who will be lost, but, to save time and space, I found one verse that sums it all up. This one verse will answer your question:



Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Sorry, though, I won't be able to tell you whose names are, or are not, written in the Book of Life. Thats a job I think we should leave up to the Judge.[/QUOT
This is very true.

[Steve Epley]

More relevant now than then.:thumbsup

[Jason B]

I heard one preacher say it this way....

"I would rather get to the Pearly Gates with a full bucket and have Peter tell me that I have to empty some out than to get there will only half a bucket full and not have enough to get in"

Perfect.





(For a legalist)

[Hoovie]

Perfect.





(For a legalist)



Right it's perfect IF a bucket full of goodies is what it takes to get a ticket!!

[pelathais]

Right it's perfect IF a bucket full of goodies is what it takes to get a ticket!!

I'm pretty certain that if you show up at "The Gate" with Jesus you'll not have to worry about buckets or even any of our own righteousness.

John 14:1-4.

All of these "Bucket" stories appear to ignore the fact that it is the Savior Who saves.

[NotforSale]

I'm pretty certain that if you show up at "The Gate" with Jesus you'll not have to worry about buckets or even any of our own righteousness.

John 14:1-4.

All of these "Bucket" stories appear to ignore the fact that it is the Savior Who saves.

:hanky

[crakjak]

There are many lost, but thankfully the True Shepard of the sheep, will leave the 90 and 9, to go and find the one, or last stray.

[Aquila]

Is injestion of caffein and nicotine sin?

I don't think it's a "sin". However, I see it as unhealthy; just like eating a quarter-pounder value meal from McDonald's for lunch every day is unhealthy.

When asked about smoking being a sin or not I've often said, "Smoking may not keep you out of Heaven, but it just might cause you to end up in Heaven sooner than you planned, and with far more suffering in the process."

[Timmy]

Is injestion of caffein and nicotine sin?

I don't think it's a "sin". However, I see it as unhealthy; just like eating a quarter-pounder value meal from McDonald's for lunch every day is unhealthy.

When asked about smoking being a sin or not I've often said, "Smoking may not keep you out of Heaven, but it just might cause you to end up in Heaven sooner than you planned, and with far more suffering in the process."

And you'll have to smoke in designated areas, only. ;)