What is a Charismatic???

[Steve Epley]

Since this was denied by some who seem Charismatic to me I would like to hear your definition of Charismatic?
Mine is simple the abandoning of the necessity of the doctrine and the rejection of the outward standards that identify the Apostolic church.
Examples: Heard-Free-Fender-Munsey-such like.

[Ferd]

well, I will simply say I stand by my statment about RH. period.

[Apocrypha]

According to Wikipedia

The charismatic movement begins with the adoption of certain beliefs typical of those held by Pentecostal Christians — specifically what are known as the biblical charisms or spiritual gifts: glossolalia (speaking in tongues), prophesying, supernatural healing — by those within mainstream Protestant and Roman Catholic churches. Many charismatic Christians went on to form separate churches and denominations. The writings of John Fletcher were influential in beginning this movement, which was sparked by the Azusa Street Revival in California, which took place in 1906. Though charismatic theology finds its roots in the Wesleyan-Holiness tradition, charismatic Christians can now be found within numerous theological movements and in multiple denominations.

Charismatic is an umbrella term used to describe those Christians who believe that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit seen in the first century Christian Church, such as miracles, prophecy, and glossolalia (speaking in other tongues or languages), are available to contemporary Christians and may be experienced and practiced today. The word charismatic is derived from the Greek word χάρισμα ("gift," itself derived from χάρις, "grace" or "favor") which is the term used in the Bible to describe a wide range of supernatural experiences (especially in 1 Corinthians 12-14).

Often confused with Pentecostalism (which inspired it, along with Methodism), charismatic Christianity tends to differ in key aspects: most charismatic Christians reject the preeminence given by Pentecostalism to glossolalia, reject what they consider to be legalism sometimes associated with Pentecostalism, and often stay in their existing denominations such as charismatic Roman Catholics.

Because of the continual cross-over between Pentecostalism and the modern charismatic movement, it is increasingly difficult to speak of charismatic and Pentecostal Christians as being part of separate movements. Yet because neither movement is monolithic, it is inaccurate to speak of them as being one movement. The difference is primarily one of origins. Beliefs of the two groups are very similar; each movement, however, is unique in its historical beginnings. Having been conceived in unique contexts, the difference may secondarily be described in terms of contrasting church cultures evidenced through each movement's manners and customs (i.e., worship styles, preaching styles, altar ministry methods). Until a more acceptable broad nomenclature is used, it needs to be understood that both movements share a great deal in common, and yet can sometimes be clearly differentiated.

[edit] History

[edit] 1950-1975
While it is difficult to locate the place and time charismatic Christianity began to influence the mainstream churches, Dennis Bennett, an American Episcopalian, is often cited as the movement's seminal influence. Bennett was the Rector at St Mark's Episcopal Church in Van Nuys, California when he announced to the congregation in 1960 that he had received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Soon after this he was ministering in Vancouver where he ran many workshops and seminars about the work of the Holy Spirit.[1] This influenced tens of thousands of Anglicans world-wide and also began a renewal movement within the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches.

In the 1960s and 1970s there was a renewed interest in the supernatural "gifts of the Spirit" in mainstream churches such as the Methodist, Episcopal, Lutheran, Anglican, and Catholic churches. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal was focused in individuals like Kevin Ranaghan and others at the University of Notre Dame in South Bend, Indiana. Dennis Bennett was Ranaghan's counterpart in the Episcopal Church. Meanwhile, in the United Kingdom, Colin Urquhart, Michael Harper, David Watson and others were in the vanguard of similar developments. The Roman Catholic Duquesne University in Pittsburgh began hosting charismatic revivals in 1977, which coincided with Jimmy Carter's election and the "born from above" or "born again" explosion.

In both the UK and New Zealand there was significant overlap between charismatic ex-Brethren and those of mainstream churches. Brethren men such as Campbell McAlpine and Arthur Wallis visited New Zealand for the renowned Massey conference in 1964. This was attended by several Anglicans including, the Rev. Ray Muller who went on to invite Dennis Bennett to New Zealand in 1966, and played a leading role in developing and promoting the Life in the Spirit seminars. Other leaders in the New Zealand movement included Baptist Wyn Fountain and Auckland Anglican Ken Prebble.[2][3]

The charismatic renewal movement in the Eastern Orthodox Church never exerted the influence that it did in other mainstream churches. Individual priests, such as Fr. Eusebius Stephanou of the Greek Orthodox Orthodox Archdiocese of North America, founder of the Brotherhood of St. Symeon the New Theologian, Fr. Athanasius Emmert of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese and Fr. Boris Zabrodsky of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in America, founder of the Service Committee for Orthodox Spiritual Renewal (SCOSR) which published "Theosis" Newsletter, were some of the more prominent leaders of the charismatic renewal in Orthodoxy.

On an international level, David du Plessis along with a host of others (including Lutheran and even Southern Baptist ministers) promoted the movement. The latter did not last long with their denominations, either volunteering to leave or being asked to do so. But in the Episcopal and Catholic churches priests were permitted to continue on in their parishes, provided they did not allow these concerns to create major divisions within their congregations.


[edit] 1975-2000
While there are many charismatic Christians within established denominations, others have left to join more progressive Pentecostal churches or formed their own churches or denominations. The house church movement in the UK and the Vineyard movement in the U.S. are examples of a formal charismatic structure. The Hillsong Church in Australia is an example of a Pentecostal church that has embraced charismatic belief and practices, which has, in turn, influenced the Australian Assemblies of God denomination. In New Zealand, a major Pentecostal movement is the New Life Churches, although other local and international Pentecostal denominations are also well established.

Since the mid 1980s, the charismatic movement has made some notable changes in its theology and emphases. This process has been termed The Third Wave of the Holy Spirit and has been typified by the ministry of C. Peter Wagner, John Wimber, and the Toronto blessing phenomenon. In the 80's, two distinct groups of charismatic Christians emerged: Those with a more evangelical emphasis, such as the Vineyard and many independent groups and those following Word-faith Theology (mostly centered around Kenneth W. Hagin and RHEMA Churches). Key charismatic figures such as John Wimber and others are critical of Word-faith and the "prosperity gospel."

In the 1990s, many leaders (such as John Paul Jackson) and Churches started re-considering their traditional charismatic emphasis on Spiritual Warfare (moving from 'binding spirits' to praying that the Holy Spirit would move).


[edit] 2000-present
The charismatic movement has grown in the last decade. As of 2008, according to Barna surveys, one out of every four Protestant churches in the United States (23%) is a charismatic congregation. 36% of Americans claim to be charismatic or Pentecostal Christians. A slight majority of all born again Christians (51%) are charismatic. Nearly half of all adults who attend a Protestant church (46%) are charismatic.[4]

[Apocrypha]

Since 2000, charismatic Christians have begun to focus more on prayer, fasting and continual prayer and worship[citation needed]. The International House of Prayer, founded by Mike Bickle became one of the major equipping centers for the prayer movement, and many prayer houses have been established throughout the world. Many churches have started intercessory prayer meetings. The Call, a series of "solemn assembly" prayer gatherings have been held around America since 2000. While meetings are non-denominational in nature, charismatic leaders, such as Lou Engle, Mike Bickle and others lead and organize them.

A major emphasis for some Charismatic Christians in the 21st century is using the gifts of the Holy Spirit (such as prophecy and healing) as tools for evangelism, with the understanding that God employs supernatural encounters "signs and wonders", more than verbal communication such as tracts or Christian apologetics.

The practice of praying for the sick, while always an integral element of charismatic doctrine, has increased recently[citation needed]. In many circles, the emphasis has shifted from one so-called "anointed" person ministering to the sick, towards the congregation as a whole praying. An international network of "Healing Rooms," places where anybody can receive prayer for healing, has been established by Healing Rooms International (founded by Cal Pierce). Many churches offer special times to receive healing prayer, or offer it after a service.

The goal of the full restoration of the fivefold ministry (Evangelists, Pastors, Apostles, Prophets and Teachers) has become another large focus these groups[citation needed]. Many believe that the church will not function properly and see the fullness of what God has for it, unless all five positions are functioning[citation needed].

Current key leaders of the charismatic movement include Randy Clark, Bill Johnson, Bob Jones, Mike Bickle, Rolland and Heidi Baker, and Che Ahn.

The 2006 documentary film Jesus Camp provided a window into one facet of the charismatic movement.

April 2, 2008 marked a new movement in the United States, lead by Fresh Fire Ministries and Canadian Evengelist Todd Bentley. The Florida Healing Outpouring, also known as, The Great Florida Healing Revival, in Lakeland, Florida, has drawn international attention with the help of new media including the internet and God TV (http://www.god.tv). Miracles have been reported daily at the revival. As of June 13, 2008, stated by Lakeland's Ignited Church Pastor Stephen Strader on the broadcast, there have been 24 resurrections from the dead. Archived services are on Ignited Church's website (http://www.ignitedchurch.com). This new movement has caused quite a stir among some evangelicals, particularly on Internet web sites and blogs, with lengthy and sometimes heated debates over its legitimacy and claims.


[edit] Pentecostalism
The charismatic movement shares many similarities with Pentecostalism, and the stages of the latter seem to have been a prerequisite for the further developing of the charismatic one. The influence of Pentecostalism upon the charismatic movement cannot be denied. Both acknowledge the power of the Holy Spirit. Faith healing has major acceptance among adherents of both faiths, and both are known for their lively worship services. Even still, many differences will distinguish a charismatic from a Pentecostal, though some may consider themselves to be both.

Pentecostal Christians have developed their own denominations, but charismatic Christians tend either to remain in their respective established churches or religious bodies, or associate in loose Church fellowships such as the Vineyard Church or Global Legacy. Charismatic Christians have been susceptible to criticism that exceeds that of Pentecostalism, but criticism of both is widespread in comparison to other religious movements.

[Ferd]

EW, my friend, I really dont think that is what Brother Epley was thinking of...

[Apocrypha]

Oh he meant the loaded version of the word... sorry.

[RandyWayne]

Since this was denied by some who seem backslidden to me I would like to hear your definition of Backslidden?
Mine is simple the abandoning of the necessity of the doctrine and the rejection of the outward standards that identify the Apostolic church.
Examples: Heard-Free-Fender-Munsey-such like.

I think THIS is how the question could have been phrased as well.

[Steve Epley]

According to Wikipedia

The charismatic movement begins with the adoption of certain beliefs typical of those held by Pentecostal Christians — specifically what are known as the biblical charisms or spiritual gifts: glossolalia (speaking in tongues), prophesying, supernatural healing — by those within mainstream Protestant and Roman Catholic churches. Many charismatic Christians went on to form separate churches and denominations. The writings of John Fletcher were influential in beginning this movement, which was sparked by the Azusa Street Revival in California, which took place in 1906. Though charismatic theology finds its roots in the Wesleyan-Holiness tradition, charismatic Christians can now be found within numerous theological movements and in multiple denominations.

Charismatic is an umbrella term used to describe those Christians who believe that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit seen in the first century Christian Church, such as miracles, prophecy, and glossolalia (speaking in other tongues or languages), are available to contemporary Christians and may be experienced and practiced today. The word charismatic is derived from the Greek word χάρισμα ("gift," itself derived from χάρις, "grace" or "favor") which is the term used in the Bible to describe a wide range of supernatural experiences (especially in 1 Corinthians 12-14).

Often confused with Pentecostalism (which inspired it, along with Methodism), charismatic Christianity tends to differ in key aspects: most charismatic Christians reject the preeminence given by Pentecostalism to glossolalia, reject what they consider to be legalism sometimes associated with Pentecostalism, and often stay in their existing denominations such as charismatic Roman Catholics.

Because of the continual cross-over between Pentecostalism and the modern charismatic movement, it is increasingly difficult to speak of charismatic and Pentecostal Christians as being part of separate movements. Yet because neither movement is monolithic, it is inaccurate to speak of them as being one movement. The difference is primarily one of origins. Beliefs of the two groups are very similar; each movement, however, is unique in its historical beginnings. Having been conceived in unique contexts, the difference may secondarily be described in terms of contrasting church cultures evidenced through each movement's manners and customs (i.e., worship styles, preaching styles, altar ministry methods). Until a more acceptable broad nomenclature is used, it needs to be understood that both movements share a great deal in common, and yet can sometimes be clearly differentiated.

[edit] History

[edit] 1950-1975
While it is difficult to locate the place and time charismatic Christianity began to influence the mainstream churches, Dennis Bennett, an American Episcopalian, is often cited as the movement's seminal influence. Bennett was the Rector at St Mark's Episcopal Church in Van Nuys, California when he announced to the congregation in 1960 that he had received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Soon after this he was ministering in Vancouver where he ran many workshops and seminars about the work of the Holy Spirit.[1] This influenced tens of thousands of Anglicans world-wide and also began a renewal movement within the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches.

In the 1960s and 1970s there was a renewed interest in the supernatural "gifts of the Spirit" in mainstream churches such as the Methodist, Episcopal, Lutheran, Anglican, and Catholic churches. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal was focused in individuals like Kevin Ranaghan and others at the University of Notre Dame in South Bend, Indiana. Dennis Bennett was Ranaghan's counterpart in the Episcopal Church. Meanwhile, in the United Kingdom, Colin Urquhart, Michael Harper, David Watson and others were in the vanguard of similar developments. The Roman Catholic Duquesne University in Pittsburgh began hosting charismatic revivals in 1977, which coincided with Jimmy Carter's election and the "born from above" or "born again" explosion.

In both the UK and New Zealand there was significant overlap between charismatic ex-Brethren and those of mainstream churches. Brethren men such as Campbell McAlpine and Arthur Wallis visited New Zealand for the renowned Massey conference in 1964. This was attended by several Anglicans including, the Rev. Ray Muller who went on to invite Dennis Bennett to New Zealand in 1966, and played a leading role in developing and promoting the Life in the Spirit seminars. Other leaders in the New Zealand movement included Baptist Wyn Fountain and Auckland Anglican Ken Prebble.[2][3]

The charismatic renewal movement in the Eastern Orthodox Church never exerted the influence that it did in other mainstream churches. Individual priests, such as Fr. Eusebius Stephanou of the Greek Orthodox Orthodox Archdiocese of North America, founder of the Brotherhood of St. Symeon the New Theologian, Fr. Athanasius Emmert of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese and Fr. Boris Zabrodsky of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in America, founder of the Service Committee for Orthodox Spiritual Renewal (SCOSR) which published "Theosis" Newsletter, were some of the more prominent leaders of the charismatic renewal in Orthodoxy.

On an international level, David du Plessis along with a host of others (including Lutheran and even Southern Baptist ministers) promoted the movement. The latter did not last long with their denominations, either volunteering to leave or being asked to do so. But in the Episcopal and Catholic churches priests were permitted to continue on in their parishes, provided they did not allow these concerns to create major divisions within their congregations.


[edit] 1975-2000
While there are many charismatic Christians within established denominations, others have left to join more progressive Pentecostal churches or formed their own churches or denominations. The house church movement in the UK and the Vineyard movement in the U.S. are examples of a formal charismatic structure. The Hillsong Church in Australia is an example of a Pentecostal church that has embraced charismatic belief and practices, which has, in turn, influenced the Australian Assemblies of God denomination. In New Zealand, a major Pentecostal movement is the New Life Churches, although other local and international Pentecostal denominations are also well established.

Since the mid 1980s, the charismatic movement has made some notable changes in its theology and emphases. This process has been termed The Third Wave of the Holy Spirit and has been typified by the ministry of C. Peter Wagner, John Wimber, and the Toronto blessing phenomenon. In the 80's, two distinct groups of charismatic Christians emerged: Those with a more evangelical emphasis, such as the Vineyard and many independent groups and those following Word-faith Theology (mostly centered around Kenneth W. Hagin and RHEMA Churches). Key charismatic figures such as John Wimber and others are critical of Word-faith and the "prosperity gospel."

In the 1990s, many leaders (such as John Paul Jackson) and Churches started re-considering their traditional charismatic emphasis on Spiritual Warfare (moving from 'binding spirits' to praying that the Holy Spirit would move).


[edit] 2000-present
The charismatic movement has grown in the last decade. As of 2008, according to Barna surveys, one out of every four Protestant churches in the United States (23%) is a charismatic congregation. 36% of Americans claim to be charismatic or Pentecostal Christians. A slight majority of all born again Christians (51%) are charismatic. Nearly half of all adults who attend a Protestant church (46%) are charismatic.[4]

Who do YOU say they are????????????????????:aaa

[Steve Epley]

I think THIS is how the question could have been phrased as well.

I phrase the question like I wanted to phrase it. YOU phrase your own questions. Most folks have no problem understanding what I post.

[StillStanding]

You can call me whatever you want! If I'm a charismatic, then lots of charismatics will be walking streets of gold along with me! :)

[Carpenter]

I phrase the question like I wanted to phrase it. YOU phrase your own questions. Most folks have no problem understanding what I post.

Brother Epley, if you ever happen upon the Mile High City, I will buy you a steak for this comment. Awesome!! :ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny

[Carpenter]

Since this was denied by some who seem Charismatic to me I would like to hear your definition of Charismatic?
Mine is simple the abandoning of the necessity of the doctrine and the rejection of the outward standards that identify the Apostolic church.
Examples: Heard-Free-Fender-Munsey-such like.

I suppose the Apostolic church has made the word Charasmatic out to be some sort of cuss word.

Better to be a smoker than a Charasmatic because you can be delivered from smoking

Better to be a adulturer than a Charasmatic because you can be delivered from adultry

You can never be delivered from having charisma. :D

[StillStanding]

I'll bite!

A charismatic doesn't need the preacher to scream in the microphone and bust the speakers to get the message across.

A charismatic usually waves flags of banners as part of worship.

A charismatic is usually an ex-hippie!

A charismatic usually comes to church barefooted!

[Ron]

Since this was denied by some who seem Charismatic to me I would like to hear your definition of Charismatic?
Mine is simple the abandoning of the necessity of the doctrine and the rejection of the outward standards that identify the Apostolic church.
Examples: Heard-Free-Fender-Munsey-such like.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

All fluff with no substance!

[RandyWayne]

I phrase the question like I wanted to phrase it. YOU phrase your own questions. Most folks have no problem understanding what I post.

So did I understand the question wrong then? I was merely trying to phrase it in a form that those living in Rio Linda could understand.

[Steve Epley]

Honestly this was NOT a trick question Sherrie said they were NOT Charismatic and seemed to me at least loathe the that term attached to them. So I am wondering what consitutes a Charismatic to you?
I would have termed them Charismatic and would have NOT meant any insult. Many ex-Apostolics use the term themselves in the phone book they are listed as Charismatic. So I was just trying to get a better understanding. For years the sign at Christ Church said Pentecostal it no longer does so do they claim to be Charismatic? I am asking NOT impugning.

[StillStanding]

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

All fluff with no substance!

But......charismatics don't dress godly (according to some!)!!! For this scripture to apply to charismatics it should read like this:

Not having a religious "godly" look, but rejoicing in the power of the Holy Ghost anyways: to such turn towards! :)

[Steve Epley]

Brother Epley, if you ever happen upon the Mile High City, I will buy you a steak for this comment. Awesome!! :ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny

It looks like next year at Colorado Springs? I'll take you up.

[RandyWayne]

I'll bite!

A charismatic doesn't need the preacher to scream in the microphone and bust the speakers to get the message across.

A charismatic usually waves flags of banners as part of worship.

A charismatic is usually an ex-hippie!

A charismatic usually comes to church barefooted!

I would agree with much of this. Just as a UPC church can range from sane and thoughtful to UC and legalistic, charismatic churches can range from sane and thoughtful to downright hippy-like. Some of the latter bring to mind the 'radically saved' movement from the 80's -where people show up wearing shorts (not that I find anything wrong with shorts) and the preacher is in jeans and an untucked shirt, sitting backwards on a chair in order to appear "hip".

[Tim Rutledge]

Since this was denied by some who seem Charismatic to me I would like to hear your definition of Charismatic?
Mine is simple the abandoning of the necessity of the doctrine and the rejection of the outward standards that identify the Apostolic church.
Examples: Heard-Free-Fender-Munsey-such like.

I agree 100% with your definition Elder Epley.

[Ferd]

I suppose the Apostolic church has made the word Charasmatic out to be some sort of cuss word.

Better to be a smoker than a Charasmatic because you can be delivered from smoking

Better to be a adulturer than a Charasmatic because you can be delivered from adultry

You can never be delivered from having charisma. :D


AMEN!

[MissBrattified]

Okay, when I hear the word "charismatic" (and I'm sorry, but this definition is going to come from years of negative association), I think of:

People who spend a lot of time dancing around the church, speaking in tongues, but they don't take their experience home with them. People who see nothing wrong with anything, and church is 100% feelings based, with no good teaching on morality or righteous living. Worship God and worship your neighbor's wife. Have Holy Ghost laughing parties, and laugh at R-rated movies the following Saturday night.

:D

I told you. LOL!!! It's bad.

But that's what I think of when someone says "charismatic."

I don't equate charismatic with those who drop traditional dress standards, so much as those who drop biblical standards of behavior and morality, and continue to "embrace" God, or more accurately, a "religious experience" at the same time.

In fact, I might define it as those who value the experience more than God, and thus their interactions with God are meant to please their flesh rather than change their lives.

Oh dear.

Honesty is probably going to get me boiled alive this time.

[TRFrance]

I notice that many Charismatics don't like to call themselves Charismatics. They seem to prefer to call themselves non-denominational.

[Carpenter]

I'll bite!

A charismatic doesn't need the preacher to scream in the microphone and bust the speakers to get the message across.

A charismatic usually waves flags of banners as part of worship.

A charismatic is usually an ex-hippie!

A charismatic usually comes to church barefooted!

Charasmatics preach wearing Hawaiin shirts.

Charasmatics never use the word hell unless they are preaching about marriage.

The only thing Charasmatics remember about the 60s is when the Charasmatic movment hit. :slaphappy

[RandyWayne]

I notice that many Charismatics don't like to call themselves Charismatics. They seem to prefer to call themselves non-denominational.

The reason for that could be no simpler than that the word "Charismatic" doesn't exactly roll of the tongue, so other ever so slightly easier words have replaced it in many vocabularies.

And yes, I have always heard "Charismatic" as equal to the term "Back slidden".

[Tyk]

Okay, when I hear the word "charismatic" (and I'm sorry, but this definition is going to come from years of negative association), I think of:

People who spend a lot of time dancing around the church, speaking in tongues, but they don't take their experience home with them. People who see nothing wrong with anything, and church is 100% feelings based, with no good teaching on morality or righteous living. Worship God and worship your neighbor's wife. Have Holy Ghost laughing parties, and laugh at R-rated movies the following Saturday night.

:D

I told you. LOL!!! It's bad.

But that's what I think of when someone says "charismatic."

I don't equate charismatic with those who drop traditional dress standards, so much as those who drop biblical standards of behavior and morality, and continue to "embrace" God at the same time.

Oh dear.

Honesty is probably going to get me boiled alive this time.

Close enough to how I feel.

Man I'm glad your around, you save me alot of time and trouble - and yet say it better than I would myself. *cheers

[Carpenter]

Okay, when I hear the word "charismatic" (and I'm sorry, but this definition is going to come from years of negative association), I think of:

People who spend a lot of time dancing around the church, speaking in tongues, but they don't take their experience home with them. People who see nothing wrong with anything, and church is 100% feelings based, with no good teaching on morality or righteous living. Worship God and worship your neighbor's wife. Have Holy Ghost laughing parties, and laugh at R-rated movies the following Saturday night.

:D

I told you. LOL!!! It's bad.

But that's what I think of when someone says "charismatic."

I don't equate charismatic with those who drop traditional dress standards, so much as those who drop biblical standards of behavior and morality, and continue to "embrace" God, or more accurately, a "religious experience" at the same time.

In fact, I might define it as those who value the experience more than God, and thus their interactions with God are meant to please their flesh rather than change their lives.

Oh dear.

Honesty is probably going to get me boiled alive this time.

How on earth do you come up with this stuff?





That was totally amazing. Great post!

[MissBrattified]

Close enough to how I feel.

Man I'm glad your around, you save me alot of time and trouble - and yet say it better than I would myself. *cheers

Thanks for the cheers. I think my fan club is going to leave me on this thread. :D

[MissBrattified]

How on earth do you come up with this stuff?





That was totally amazing. Great post!

Really? TY. I thought it might get me nailed to the wall. Oh wait, it's not over yet...:coffee2

So much for Rhoni's claims that my "attitude has changed." :D

[TRFrance]

The reason for that could be no simpler than that the word "Charismatic" doesn't exactly roll of the tongue, so other ever so slightly easier words have replaced it in many vocabularies.

And yes, I have always heard "Charismatic" as equal to the term "Back slidden".
Well," Charismatic" is easier to say than "non-denominational", so I don't think ease of pronunciation is the issue.

Methinks it has a lot more to do with the negative connotation associated with the word.

[Steve Epley]

I notice that many Charismatics don't like to call themselves Charismatics. They seem to prefer to call themselves non-denominational.

The late Elder Robert Daughtery used to say "Non-denominational means they don't know what they believe and don't care what you believe." Sounds right to me.:aaa

[Tim Rutledge]

Since this was denied by some who seem Charismatic to me I would like to hear your definition of Charismatic?
Mine is simple the abandoning of the necessity of the doctrine and the rejection of the outward standards that identify the Apostolic church.
Examples: Heard-Free-Fender-Munsey-such like.

Charismatics, to my understanding, would never teach on outward Holiness. All Apostolics (in my definition of Apostolic) do teach outward Holiness.
Modesty (dress) and humility is still very important to the Lord. Charasmatics do not like absolutes, and they despise the word...submission.

[Tyk]

Modesty (dress) and humility is still very important to the Lord. .

I don't think you will find anyone on these boards that would disagree with that.

Maybe 1.... or 2, ha.

[RandyWayne]

Charismatics, to my understanding, would never teach on outward Holiness. All Apostolics (in my definition of Apostolic) do teach outward Holiness.
Modesty (dress) and humility is still very important to the Lord. Charasmatics do not like absolutes, and they despise the word...submission.

I appreciate your thoughts but I would add that:

Charismatics/non-denominational/CHRISTIANS would teach that modesty and dress and humility IS important.... TO the Lord. Whereas many apostolics throw in an "in between"/aka, the pastor between Lord and saint.

Your right about the absolutes, mostly. "We" don't create absolute sleeve lengths,skirt lengths, facial hair/no facial hair rules, TV/NO TV, etc..... But what does burn in ME personally on the holiness front (all the worse because I know how bad I am) is the knowledge that I am guilty of doing to everyone else what the Lord has forgiven ME for. I WISH that I could just get rid of my TV and feel the same sort of "salvation" that so many others do.

Oh yes, and "we" also practice submission. Just in the correct order with God (of course) leading followed by family (and spouse, kids, parents, extended family order within the suborder "family"), and finally the local organization known as the church. Charismatics usually take the position of pastor and place him UNDER their spouse, versus next to God.

[Parkbench]

My mother-in-law called the full-gospel preacher who mowed her yard as a ministry to widows a nice christian man. The moment he couldn't continue this freebie and started charging $7.00 plus lawn mower gas, he became the charasimatic preacher who couldn't pull enough people to hold a Sunday evening service".

The day he decided to stop mowing all together, he became "the charismatic preacher who walks in the 4th of July parade in his shorts and along side is his wife with spiked hair".

[MissBrattified]

My mother-in-law called the full-gospel preacher who mowed her yard as a ministry to widows a nice christian man. The moment he couldn't continue this freebie and started charging $7.00 plus lawn mower gas, he became the charasimatic preacher who couldn't pull enough people to hold a Sunday evening service".

The day he decided to stop mowing all together, he became "the charismatic preacher who walks in the 4th of July parade in his shorts and along side is his wife with spiked hair".

LOL!!! :D

Oh...was that meant to be funny?

[RandyWayne]

My mother-in-law called the full-gospel preacher who mowed her yard as a ministry to widows a nice christian man. The moment he couldn't continue this freebie and started charging $7.00 plus lawn mower gas, he became the charasimatic preacher who couldn't pull enough people to hold a Sunday evening service".

The day he decided to stop mowing all together, he became "the charismatic preacher who walks in the 4th of July parade in his shorts and along side is his wife with spiked hair".

LOL

Sounds like my grandma. Will go to a church until they bust her for dumping her trash in their dumpster.... Then suddenly she has nothing good to say about them.

[Parkbench]

The First United Pentecostal Church in Springfield Illinois is listed in the AT@T phone book under "Charismatic".

[Parkbench]

LOL!!! :D

Oh...was that meant to be funny?



Is funny but also for real.

[U376977]

Honestly this was NOT a trick question Sherrie said they were NOT Charismatic and seemed to me at least loathe the that term attached to them. So I am wondering what consitutes a Charismatic to you?
I would have termed them Charismatic and would have NOT meant any insult. Many ex-Apostolics use the term themselves in the phone book they are listed as Charismatic. So I was just trying to get a better understanding. For years the sign at Christ Church said Pentecostal it no longer does so do they claim to be Charismatic? I am asking NOT impugning.

Ok, Elder if you are really serious I will tell you. First I hate to put it out there that I am an authority on what is Charismatic. I really do not claim that but let me tell you what qualifes me it speak on the subject.

First all would have to agree that Oral Roberts is the grandfather of the modern Charismatic movement. He organized an association that has all the "big name" ministers in it, from Kenneth Copeland to Jakes, Meyers, Hickeys, Murdock, and on and on. They have an annual convention on the ORU campus every year.
I attended and graduated ORU in the 80's. I had several personal conversations with Oral, and attended required chapel services twice weekly with Oral and other Charismatic speakers. I have heard every name preach you can think of on more than one occasion. This was of course BEFORE I received the revelation of Jesus Christ. I did not come to know who Jesus was until AFTER I graduated from ORU.


Let me give you the charismatic definition that I heard Oral expound upon many times.

1. Speaking on tongues is not the initial evidence of the HG. The HG can be evidenced by healing etc. A person who has the HG may speak in tonges and is encouraged to do so but tongues will not necessarily be the "initial" evidence. Speaking in tongues is often called the "prayer language.''

2. The prayer language is done at THE WILL of the beliver. You can turn it on and off like a water faucet (my analogy). The HG never makes a person speak. You speak in tongues, the "prayer language" whenever you want to.

3. Believers are encouraged to not leave their church. When you receive your "prayer language" they are told to stay in the denominatial churches and be an influence there, to start Charismatic prayer meetings.

4. Worship. Charismatics sing very few hymns. They may sing a "Great is thy Faithfulness" type hymn sometimes. Mostly worship choruses. They sing "vertical songs." Meaning songs that are directed to God. There is an emphasis on worship of the Holy Spirit as a person in the Godhead --Thanks to Benny Hinn and his book and teaching on the HS. People many times will sing in tongues. People commonly clap, jump, and sing.

5. Salvation is "confess with your mouth." Receiving your "prayer language" is only a benefit of salvation you have already received.

6. There is a great emphasis on the fidelity of the Word. Great emphasis on teaching; Confession, faith, healing, word of God, love and prosperity are most common topics. Most charismatics do not have preaching--no waving the arms and shouting from the pulpit etc. However, I have actually heard Oral, and Kenneth Hagin PREACH.

7. Charismatics emphasis that God "looks on the heart" There is almost no teaching on sanctification, holiness, dress or any other standard.

Hope this answers the question. PM if you want to know any more or what they believe or teach about a certaion subject.

[Pressing-On]

I phrase the question like I wanted to phrase it. YOU phrase your own questions. Most folks have no problem understanding what I post.

:ursofunny:ursofunny

I loved this post!

:ursofunny:ursofunny

[Tim Rutledge]

I appreciate your thoughts but I would add that:

Charismatics/non-denominational/CHRISTIANS would teach that modesty and dress and humility IS important.... TO the Lord. Whereas many apostolics throw in an "in between"/aka, the pastor between Lord and saint.

Your right about the absolutes, mostly. "We" don't create absolute sleeve lengths,skirt lengths, facial hair/no facial hair rules, TV/NO TV, etc..... But what does burn in ME personally on the holiness front (all the worse because I know how bad I am) is the knowledge that I am guilty of doing to everyone else what the Lord has forgiven ME for. I WISH that I could just get rid of my TV and feel the same sort of "salvation" that so many others do.

Oh yes, and "we" also practice submission. Just in the correct order with God (of course) leading followed by family (and spouse, kids, parents, extended family order within the suborder "family"), and finally the local organization known as the church. Charismatics usually take the position of pastor and place him UNDER their spouse, versus next to God.

Randy.. your Charismatic? Not Apostolic? Do they have a Charismatic friends forum?

[Steve Epley]

Any others.

[ManOfWord]

Any others.


I am not charismatic. I believe in being saved FROM sin and not IN sin. I believe in repentance, water baptism in Jesus' name and the infilling of the HG. I believe that a Christian must live a holy life before the Lord. I believe that a person can be lost after they are saved. I do NOT believe in easy-believism.

[Sweet Pea]

U376977

To conserve space I have not quoted your entire post. However, your post best describes what I believe real "charismatics" are. Having been associated with a group of people in the sixties who did receive the Holy Ghost as evidenced by speaking in tongues. They attended our UPC church several times because they knew my family and my mother had "witnessed" to them about the power of the Holy Ghost. They were "good baptist folks".

After a series of bible studies, they decided that they still didn't believe that the "Holy Spirit" was essential to salvation and that it was like icing on the cake - made the cake taste better, but the cake would still be good without it.

I think what has happened in the past - "most" oneness Pentecostals (please note that I said "most" - NOT "all") were like the pendulum that swung from far right to far left when they made a move away from "legalism", "holiness standards", etc . They began to take on a lot of the characteristics of "charismatics". (Characteristics having NOTHING to do with "standards" - but style of worship, "prayer language", prosperity doctrine, etc etc....) We have all known oneness Pentecostals who have done this.... and before long, they became a "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" church regarding salvation - but accepted speaking in tongues as "icing" and "something more" - but not necesary.

It is a fault that sometimes we use that description as a label for someone who has moved somewhat to the left in their standards - but still hold to the salvation doctrine. And we have all known oneness Pentecostals who have done this as well....


So, having read the description given by a former "charismatic", I can understand why some on this forum would be offended. But I think through the years, in oneness Pentecost, the description has evolved to mean someone who left the "standards" that we have long been taught.

[Sweet Pea]

Randy.. your Charismatic? Not Apostolic? Do they have a Charismatic friends forum?

I sincerely hope you meant this TIC - and not that you didn't think he belonged on this forum! :whistle

[RandyWayne]

Randy.. your Charismatic? Not Apostolic? Do they have a Charismatic friends forum?

I'm non-denominational. :)

(But my wife is solidly AoG.)

[Sherri]

I am not charismatic. I believe in being saved FROM sin and not IN sin. I believe in repentance, water baptism in Jesus' name and the infilling of the HG. I believe that a Christian must live a holy life before the Lord. I believe that a person can be lost after they are saved. I do NOT believe in easy-believism.
This is exactly who we are too.

[Sherri]

Okay, when I hear the word "charismatic" (and I'm sorry, but this definition is going to come from years of negative association), I think of:

People who spend a lot of time dancing around the church, speaking in tongues, but they don't take their experience home with them. People who see nothing wrong with anything, and church is 100% feelings based, with no good teaching on morality or righteous living. Worship God and worship your neighbor's wife. Have Holy Ghost laughing parties, and laugh at R-rated movies the following Saturday night.

:D

I told you. LOL!!! It's bad.

But that's what I think of when someone says "charismatic."

I don't equate charismatic with those who drop traditional dress standards, so much as those who drop biblical standards of behavior and morality, and continue to "embrace" God, or more accurately, a "religious experience" at the same time.

In fact, I might define it as those who value the experience more than God, and thus their interactions with God are meant to please their flesh rather than change their lives.

Oh dear.

Honesty is probably going to get me boiled alive this time.

Oh my goodness..........and you wonder why we don't like being called Charismatics???? This is so far from what we believe, it's not even funny.

[theoldpaths]

I heard a preacher this past w/end teach on Jezebel - apparently, Jezebel means "no identity". In Revelations, Jesus wrote to one church who allowed "that woman Jezebel to teach...". Yes, the spirit of Jezebel was alive and trying to have its way in one of the early churches.

Just thought I would throw that in seeing how the subject is on Charismatics.

Jezebel cuts off the prophets of the LORD and sustains the false prophets at her table.

[Michael The Disciple]

To me Charismatic only means a group of people who believe in the gifts of the Spirit. Beyond that there are many versions of Charismatic. Some of them very strict on discipleship and holiness. I have no problem being called a Charismatic Christian. Or with being called a Pentecostal Christian.

[MissBrattified]

Oh my goodness..........and you wonder why we don't like being called Charismatics???? This is so far from what we believe, it's not even funny.

Well, logically I know that many Charismatic (e.g., non-denominational?) folks would be anything but the definition I provided, but that's still the vision that pops into my head when I hear the word, it has a very negative connotation for me.

AND, I know people who do fit the definition I provided, I just don't know what to call them, other than "charismatic."

[U376977]

To me Charismatic only means a group of people who believe in the gifts of the Spirit. Beyond that there are many versions of Charismatic. Some of them very strict on discipleship and holiness. I have no problem being called a Charismatic Christian. Or with being called a Pentecostal Christian.

I would like to know where you are looking? I moved within that Charismatic circle for 20 years and know of none that believe in "holiness." Some may speak about "personal holiness" meaning for example that they do not drink in excess--almost all drink at least wine or wine coolers--.

There is certainly no type of dress standard for the men or women among the Charismatic leadership. I would call Hagee a Charismatic (he is actually AG) and I heard him making fun of women wearing only dresses--"all the long hair" etc.
I heard Hagin say, "I don't know why God would forbid a woman to cutt her hair and let a bald headed man into heaven." To the jeers and applause of the whole crowd.

Point being the anything connected to a dress standard is derided--they certainly do not have a "live and let them live the way they want" attitude.

[Rico]

Well, logically I know that many Charismatic (e.g., non-denominational?) folks would be anything but the definition I provided, but that's still the vision that pops into my head when I hear the word, it has a very negative connotation for me.

AND, I know people who do fit the definition I provided, I just don't know what to call them, other than "charismatic."

Sister, I'd say a lot of people see it the way you described.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I phrase the question like I wanted to phrase it. YOU phrase your own questions. Most folks have no problem understanding what I post.

So Charismatics (in general) are not Backslidden?

[StMark]

There may be a text book definition for "Charismatic, but to Apostolics,
It's those who left their Roots and choose to take on the style
and characteristic markings of the charismatics.

I still hear Oneness Leaders refer to those who left Pentecost say " They are Totally Charismatic now".
When they say this, we know exactly what they mean and so do all of you.
I know some of you resent this but I hate to tell you,it's not going away anytime soon.

The Charismatics want the gifts and goods without any structure
or rules. This is the perception Apostolics have of those who leave us.

Don't beat up the messenger. I'm just telling what really is.

[Jermyn Davidson]

.... Have Holy Ghost laughing parties, and laugh at R-rated movies the following Saturday night....

"R" movies are bad?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Often, I have found, that some Charismatics are just better people to be around than some Apostolics. Charismatics have joy every day, some Apostolics only have joy in church, and that's only if they sing the right song.

Charismatics tend to have crazy faith, while some Apostolics limit their god.

Charismatics share the Gospel with friends and strangers alike, whenever they can. Some Apostolics can't even explain why they beleive what they believe without using the phrase, "my Pastor says...."

Charismatics enjoy life while Apostolics endure living.

I am Apostolic, as I am convinced of the truth of God's Word. But sometimes, my best friends have been Charismatic.

[George]

Miss Brattifield and St. Mark said it best. That is how it is perceived to most people.

[MissBrattified]

Often, I have found, that some Charismatics are just better people to be around than some Apostolics. Charismatics have joy every day, some Apostolics only have joy in church, and that's only if they sing the right song.

Charismatics tend to have crazy faith, while some Apostolics limit their god.

Charismatics share the Gospel with friends and strangers alike, whenever they can. Some Apostolics can't even explain why they beleive what they believe without using the phrase, "my Pastor says...."

Charismatics enjoy life while Apostolics endure living.

I am Apostolic, as I am convinced of the truth of God's Word. But sometimes, my best friends have been Charismatic.

But who are you calling "Charismatic?" What group[s] of people? Non-denominational? Non-standards-keeping Pentecostals? Who are you referring to when you say "charismatic?"

Some of my best friends are Assembly of God--and I don't call them "charismatic." LOL!!!!

[Baron1710]

Charismatics, to my understanding, would never teach on outward Holiness. All Apostolics (in my definition of Apostolic) do teach outward Holiness.
Modesty (dress) and humility is still very important to the Lord. Charasmatics do not like absolutes, and they despise the word...submission.

Them and Jesus.

[StillStanding]

I feel like writing a song titled, "I'm a Charismatic"! :hanky:clap:bliss:stretch:

[Baron1710]

I am not charismatic. I believe in being saved FROM sin and not IN sin. I believe in repentance, water baptism in Jesus' name and the infilling of the HG. I believe that a Christian must live a holy life before the Lord. I believe that a person can be lost after they are saved. I do NOT believe in easy-believism.

My former pastor would have said the same thing that you said except he would say I AM Charismatic.

[Michael The Disciple]

I would like to know where you are looking? I moved within that Charismatic circle for 20 years and know of none that believe in "holiness." Some may speak about "personal holiness" meaning for example that they do not drink in excess--almost all drink at least wine or wine coolers--.

There is certainly no type of dress standard for the men or women among the Charismatic leadership. I would call Hagee a Charismatic (he is actually AG) and I heard him making fun of women wearing only dresses--"all the long hair" etc.
I heard Hagin say, "I don't know why God would forbid a woman to cutt her hair and let a bald headed man into heaven." To the jeers and applause of the whole crowd.

Point being the anything connected to a dress standard is derided--they certainly do not have a "live and let them live the way they want" attitude.

Lets try on Faith Assembly in Warsaw Indiana for size if you are looking for strictness. Dresses and headcoverings for Woman. Blue jeans for men are frowned on. No Christmas and Easter or 4th of July celebrations.

Using ANY drugs or seeing a Dr. is considered sin. Babies are born at home. Taking a loan for any reason, having health or life insurance is a lack of faith. You cannot have a Union affiliated job.

The sermon on the mount is to be practiced faithfully as everyday living rather than just a nice ideal. They DO baptize in the name of Jesus.

Their Church when I first became acquainted with them was over 2000 people. After the death of Pastor Freeman it is much smaller but still has a number of Churches that follow his teaching.

Am I saying they are a typical Charismatic Church? No I said there are many versions of Charismatic.

[RandyWayne]

Lets try on Faith Assembly in Warsaw Indiana for size if you are looking for strictness. Dresses and headcoverings for Woman. Blue jeans for men are frowned on. No Christmas and Easter or 4th of July celebrations.

Using ANY drugs or seeing a Dr. is considered sin. Babies are born at home. Taking a loan for any reason, having health or life insurance is a lack of faith. You cannot have a Union affiliated job.

The sermon on the mount is to be practiced faithfully as everyday living rather than just a nice ideal. They DO baptize in the name of Jesus.

Their Church when I first became acquainted with them was over 2000 people. After the death of Pastor Freeman it is much smaller but still has a number of Churches that follow his teaching.

Am I saying they are a typical Charismatic Church? No I said there are many versions of Charismatic.

This sounds similar to our last church and the one which my wife grew up in -and it was an AoG.

[deltaguitar]

I guess most people consider charismatics as those who don't believe anything anymore.

I have to agree with Mark. Many folks in the UPC get upset because they think that if they have to uphold the doctrine or standards to get "blessed" then so should everyone else.

Really, now that I have left the UPC the main change in me has been how I viewed shouting and speaking in tongues. I used to think that this was needed in order to have a powerful move of God but now I know better. It just seems like a bunch of hype to me. Maybe I am more Baptist than charismatic, I don't know.

I am also closer to God than I have ever been because my concept of worship is more than just Sunday night shout down. I actually live my life in order to please God not in order to look spiritual.

[StMark]

Bro Epley,

This is by far the best thread you've ever started!

you was under a special anointing yesterday when you
started this thread ( maybe a divine mandate ??? :ursofunny)


One of my favorites!!!! :icecream

[Sister Alvear]

This to say the least is an odd thread and the veiws are as far as the east is from the west...maybe further...
I know what Brother Epley thinks charismatic people are yet I have been called charismatic by some so it must mean and I know it does many things.
Every little group has another group that they call charismatic if not we find ourselves calling people cultish...strange how we go from one extreme to the other.
The reason we do that is because we are humans. There are lots of Jesus Name groups in Brazil of course mine is the closest to heaven! ha...just joking...

I was looking at a new Assembly of God group that sent me some mail and they have recieved a revelation that ladies should wear long robes at all times, they must not be shinny but a plain color. Men must be dressed in suits for all services and no one can wear black as it is the devils color and of course never red...they sent me their long list of rules...I am overwhelmed by their long list...to them I am a true charismatic...
do I consider myself charismatic? No, but I guess it is whose eyes we are looking out of...

[SavedLou]

It's obvious that the term "charismatic" means a lot of things to a lot of people. Looks like there is not a set definition. To the strict UPC crowd it means anyone who believes in tongues/spiritual gifts that's not traditional Pentecostal or as a way to describe a church that doesn't have strict standards. Example: "That church has gone charismatic...just look at their women".

Growing up Baptist, we used the term charismatic to describe the Spirit-filled, non-denominational type churches that were not Pentecostal or AoG. As someone else posted, maybe it was easier than saying "non-denominational" all the time. I guess that's how I still view the term. I do NOT associate it with oneness people that still baptize in Jesus' name but don't preach standards.

[Steve Epley]

Just asking for definitions so far we have no Charismatics on here.:whistle

[Michael The Disciple]

I was baptized in Jesus name at a Charismatic Church called Faith Fellowship in Dayton Ohio September of 1978. They taught dresses only for Women. That they must cover their heads in public prayer. It was sin to go to the Dr.

As long as there was any sin in your life you were not counted as being born again. Everyone was taught to pray a minimum of three hours a day.

[Baron1710]

Just asking for definitions so far we have no Charismatics on here.:whistle

I can be the token Charismatic if it will make you happy. The only stipulation is I get to define the term. It's just another term that Oneness folks use to say we are better than you. When people say "That guy has gone Charismatic" what the mean to say is "I am saved and he is lost." Reminds me of a story Jesus told about two men praying.

[Michael The Disciple]

Just asking for definitions so far we have no Charismatics on here.:whistle

What is the definition of Pentecostal? From a Charismatic viewpoint maybe something like this:

You must run around the Church.

Everybody speaking out loud in tongues at the same time.

Altar workers yelling all sorts of contradicting things in the ears of a Holy Spirit seeker.

Women with long dresses and long tongues.

Old timey music

King James Bible only

Preachers whose message is a bunch of yelling and little substance

This works both ways!

[StillStanding]

Just asking for definitions so far we have no Charismatics on here.:whistle

If the definition of "charismatic" is one who is Oneness, was baptized in Jesus name, spoke in tongues when he received the Holy Ghost baptism, but no longer follows most traditional holiness "standards"....then I am charismatic! :)

[Pro31:28]

I can be the token Charismatic if it will make you happy. The only stipulation is I get to define the term. It's just another term that Oneness folks use to say we are better than you. When people say "That guy has gone Charismatic" what the mean to say is "I am saved and he is lost." Reminds me of a story Jesus told about two men praying.

Baron,
Don't forget the other derogatory terms,
"Easy-Believers"
"Sloppy Agape"
"Greasy-Grace"
All of these names make me sick to my stomach. That any Bible-believing Christian could use the terms Grace and Agape in the same breath that they are putting someone down, is awful!
It is a hateful, judgmental, self-propagating group of people who refer to "those Charismatics" by the above terms. Very few of them ever get to know what someone really believes, because they won't listen. Maybe if people took their eyes of the outside, they could see the spirit.... But I am going to get off of this thread, because it just makes me angry, and I would hate to get in trouble!
:club

[TRFrance]

Just asking for definitions so far we have no Charismatics on here.:whistle

Clearly, there is no universally accepted definition of the term.

In the end, "Charismatic" is in the eye of the beholder.

[Sherri]

Bro. Epley is CHARISMATIC..................in the eyes of the Amish:tease

[RandyWayne]

Bro. Epley is CHARISMATIC..................in the eyes of the Amish:tease

Or in the eyes of Pastor Reckart, who probably considers him a heretic who long ago abandoned the "old paths".

[StillStanding]

Bro. Epley is CHARISMATIC..................in the eyes of the Amish:tease
St. Mark is charismatic too! (In the eyes of the AMF and the WWPF!)

I guess everybody is someone else's charismatic! :D

[U376977]

Lets try on Faith Assembly in Warsaw Indiana for size if you are looking for strictness. Dresses and headcoverings for Woman. Blue jeans for men are frowned on. No Christmas and Easter or 4th of July celebrations.

Using ANY drugs or seeing a Dr. is considered sin. Babies are born at home. Taking a loan for any reason, having health or life insurance is a lack of faith. You cannot have a Union affiliated job.

The sermon on the mount is to be practiced faithfully as everyday living rather than just a nice ideal. They DO baptize in the name of Jesus.

Their Church when I first became acquainted with them was over 2000 people. After the death of Pastor Freeman it is much smaller but still has a number of Churches that follow his teaching.

Am I saying they are a typical Charismatic Church? No I said there are many versions of Charismatic.


To me everything you describe defines them NOT CHARISMATIC. You really have my head spinning with this post.

Please tell me what makes them Charismatic? I can't imagine them in fellowship with the Charismatic leaders. Do they love Benny Hinn and the like? Who are their visiting evangelists?
Do you define them as Charismatic based on their views of the Holy Spirit. Ultimately that is the only to define them...
Here is my litmus test, Do they pray in tongues at their will? I mean one minute they are speaking in english and then the leader will say, "everyone pray in your prayer language right now." Next sound you hear is tongues. If they do this I will accept without question they are Charismatic.

[Ferd]

Baron,
Don't forget the other derogatory terms,
"Easy-Believers"
"Sloppy Agape"
"Greasy-Grace"
All of these names make me sick to my stomach. That any Bible-believing Christian could use the terms Grace and Agape in the same breath that they are putting someone down, is awful!
It is a hateful, judgmental, self-propagating group of people who refer to "those Charismatics" by the above terms. Very few of them ever get to know what someone really believes, because they won't listen. Maybe if people took their eyes of the outside, they could see the spirit.... But I am going to get off of this thread, because it just makes me angry, and I would hate to get in trouble!
:club
I once watched an interview on one of the news magizine shows like 20/20 about Joel Ostean. There was a fellow baptist minister who was interviewed and he said Joel preached greasy-grace and easy believeism.

we dont hold a monopoly on those terms.... and they accurately depict some within our ranks and some without.

[Michlow]

Since this was denied by some who seem Charismatic to me I would like to hear your definition of Charismatic?
Mine is simple the abandoning of the necessity of the doctrine and the rejection of the outward standards that identify the Apostolic church.
Examples: Heard-Free-Fender-Munsey-such like.

Your definition is lacking something. Because I don't believe in the necessity of the doctrine, and I have rejected the outward standards, and I am not in the least charismatic, because I also do not believe in the hyper-use of the "gifts"

[Tim Rutledge]

This Being an APOSTOLIC Friends Forum.

I'm wondering why, non- Apostolics would want to be on this forum. Me being Apostolic.... the only reason I'd go to a Baptist/Catholic/Charasmatic Forum would be to try to pick apart their beliefs. This forum isn't Apostolic in my opinion. You know most liberals are more nasty and mean spirited as any AMF, WPF ultra conservative. Only One God, Acts 2:38, Seperated from this world, right spirited saints are going to make it. Casting pearls before swine, comes to my mind concerning this forum. And if you do not even have a Pastor.. how in the world could you call yourself Apostolic?

Charasmatics will hate this post. And I revel a bit, in stirring up funky spirits. And that may be a very good reason for me to leave this forum. I know you guys aren't helping me.. and I'm sure I cannot help you. I'll probably look and post every once in a while. God bless you Elder Epley.

[Michlow]

This Being an APOSTOLIC Friends Forum.

I'm wondering why, non- Apostolics would want to be on this forum. Me being Apostolic.... the only reason I'd go to a Baptist/Catholic/Charasmatic Forum would be to try to pick apart their beliefs. This forum isn't Apostolic in my opinion. You know most liberals are more nasty and mean spirited as any AMF, WPF ultra conservative. Only One God, Acts 2:38, Seperated from this world, right spirited saints are going to make it. Casting pearls before swine, comes to my mind concerning this forum. And if you do not even have a Pastor.. how in the world could you call yourself Apostolic?

Charasmatics will hate this post. And I revel a bit, in stirring up funky spirits. And that may be a very good reason for me to leave this forum. I know you guys aren't helping me.. and I'm sure I cannot help you. I'll probably look and post every once in a while. God bless you Elder Epley.

Most of us "swine" were at one time full-fledged Apostolics. Many still particpate because they like to stay in touch with their heritgage. Others, like myself, have known the people on this forum for almost 5 years. I'm not going to leave just because we now have different beliefs.

If you have 12 kids, and half of them left the apostolic church, would they still be part of the family? Of would you disown them?

You might want to stick around a little while longer, before you judge all the people here, both the "liberals" for being so horrible and whatever, and the "conservatives" for allowing it ;)

[RandyWayne]

This Being an APOSTOLIC Friends Forum.

I'm wondering why, non- Apostolics would want to be on this forum. Me being Apostolic.... the only reason I'd go to a Baptist/Catholic/Charasmatic Forum would be to try to pick apart their beliefs. This forum isn't Apostolic in my opinion. You know most liberals are more nasty and mean spirited as any AMF, WPF ultra conservative. Only One God, Acts 2:38, Seperated from this world, right spirited saints are going to make it. Casting pearls before swine, comes to my mind concerning this forum. And if you do not even have a Pastor.. how in the world could you call yourself Apostolic?

Charasmatics will hate this post. And I revel a bit, in stirring up funky spirits. And that may be a very good reason for me to leave this forum. I know you guys aren't helping me.. and I'm sure I cannot help you. I'll probably look and post every once in a while. God bless you Elder Epley.

You've barely posted, but based on what you HAVE it is clear you walk a narrow path of tradition where Acts 2:38, submission to a pastor, and a laundry list of "standards" are the way, truth, and life, as far as salvation goes.
Coming from this world view it is not surprising your are horrified that there are people who question the things just listed -since "questioning" the pastor to whom has "authority" over you is akin to touching Gods anointed -and we all know you don't do that.
But this is the information age and we don't live in a box anymore where every little congregation is a world unto itself. People are now finding others of like mind, and surprise surprise..... People are finding THEY are not the only ones who feel this way.

So please... stick around a while. Get to know people. Or as Morpheus would say, "...open your mind...".

Also remember that "Amen corners" do nothing to build character!

[Sherri]

This Being an APOSTOLIC Friends Forum.

I'm wondering why, non- Apostolics would want to be on this forum. Me being Apostolic.... the only reason I'd go to a Baptist/Catholic/Charasmatic Forum would be to try to pick apart their beliefs. This forum isn't Apostolic in my opinion. You know most liberals are more nasty and mean spirited as any AMF, WPF ultra conservative. Only One God, Acts 2:38, Seperated from this world, right spirited saints are going to make it. Casting pearls before swine, comes to my mind concerning this forum. And if you do not even have a Pastor.. how in the world could you call yourself Apostolic?

Charasmatics will hate this post. And I revel a bit, in stirring up funky spirits. And that may be a very good reason for me to leave this forum. I know you guys aren't helping me.. and I'm sure I cannot help you. I'll probably look and post every once in a while. God bless you Elder Epley.Tim, if you stick around a while, you will find out that even though we all come from different viewpoints (someone is always stricter; someone is always more liberal), we have a strong tie that binds us together emotionally and spiritually. Most of the people on here love God with everything in them and seek to please him. You see the best and the worst of people on AFF - we are a strange, quirky family.

[Ferd]

This Being an APOSTOLIC Friends Forum.

I'm wondering why, non- Apostolics would want to be on this forum. Me being Apostolic.... the only reason I'd go to a Baptist/Catholic/Charasmatic Forum would be to try to pick apart their beliefs. This forum isn't Apostolic in my opinion. You know most liberals are more nasty and mean spirited as any AMF, WPF ultra conservative. Only One God, Acts 2:38, Seperated from this world, right spirited saints are going to make it. Casting pearls before swine, comes to my mind concerning this forum. And if you do not even have a Pastor.. how in the world could you call yourself Apostolic?

Charasmatics will hate this post. And I revel a bit, in stirring up funky spirits. And that may be a very good reason for me to leave this forum. I know you guys aren't helping me.. and I'm sure I cannot help you. I'll probably look and post every once in a while. God bless you Elder Epley.


Brother Rutledge, I am not charismatic for sure.... and this whole what is a charismatic thing kind of kicked off yesterday when I explained exactly how a certain houston area preacher went charismatic... along with what I felt about that....


but honestly I gotta distance a bit from this post. There are surely some folk around here who would rather pick the Apostolic movement apart than make a hundred bucks, but there are also some folk here who you and I would certainly NOT agree on as far as doctrine or standards go, who LOVE GOD and while liberal in our way of thinking, are not charismatic.


peace.

[RandyWayne]

Brother Rutledge, I am not charismatic for sure.... and this whole what is a charismatic thing kind of kicked off yesterday when I explained exactly how a certain houston area preacher went charismatic... along with what I felt about that....


but honestly I gotta distance a bit from this post. There are surely some folk around here who would rather pick the Apostolic movement apart than make a hundred bucks, but there are also some folk here who you and I would certainly NOT agree on as far as doctrine or standards go, who LOVE GOD and while liberal in our way of thinking, are not charismatic.


peace.

I'd rather make the hundred bucks....

[StillStanding]

I'd rather make the hundred bucks....

Me too! :D

[Ferd]

I'd rather make the hundred bucks....

at least you were reading!

[Sister Alvear]

:friend send those bucks to the mission field...

[berkeley]

Since this was denied by some who seem Charismatic to me I would like to hear your definition of Charismatic?
Mine is simple the abandoning of the necessity of the doctrine and the rejection of the outward standards that identify the Apostolic church.
Examples: Heard-Free-Fender-Munsey-such like.

A charismatic is a member of a liturgical church that speaks in tongues. :)

[Rico]

A charismatic is a member of a liturgical church that speaks in tongues. :)

Berkito!! Where ya been? Haven't seen ya round these here parts in awhile.

[berkeley]

Or in the eyes of Pastor Reckart, who probably considers him a heretic who long ago abandoned the "old paths".

:ursofunny

[TRFrance]

A charismatic is a member of a liturgical church that speaks in tongues. :)
Many/most self-described Charismatics are not part of liturgical churches, although quite a few are.

[berkeley]

Many/most self-described Charismatics are not part of liturgical churches, although quite a few are.

Daughters of the "woman" who rides on the back of the beast? :)

[TRFrance]

Daughters of the "woman" who rides on the back of the beast? :)
I'm not quite getting your point there.

[berkeley]

I'm not quite getting your point there.

Neither am I. I've been in the sun all day today.. and am kinda :crazy at the moment. :)

[Michael The Disciple]

To me everything you describe defines them NOT CHARISMATIC. You really have my head spinning with this post.

Please tell me what makes them Charismatic? I can't imagine them in fellowship with the Charismatic leaders. Do they love Benny Hinn and the like? Who are their visiting evangelists?
Do you define them as Charismatic based on their views of the Holy Spirit. Ultimately that is the only to define them...
Here is my litmus test, Do they pray in tongues at their will? I mean one minute they are speaking in english and then the leader will say, "everyone pray in your prayer language right now." Next sound you hear is tongues. If they do this I will accept without question they are Charismatic.

Well when Hobart Freeman founded Faith Assembly he said it was a Charismatic Church. He wrote a book probably still available through them called CHARISMATIC BODY MINISTRY.

Bro Freeman died in 1984. The Church is still alive (much smaller) today with the same beliefs as back then. They obviously would not be welcome in most Charismatic circles.

And yes they pray in tongues when they desire. How else could one obey this instruction to pray in the Holy Ghost?

20: But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Jude v20.

I pray in tongues every day following the Apostolic admonition. If THAT is your litmus test of a true Charismatic you can count me as one of them.

To me the definitions of Pentecostal and Charismatic fall far short of describing the true disciple of Yeshua the Messiah.

Pentecostal-Believes in speaking in tongues.

Charismatic-Believes in gifts of the Spirit.

There is much more to the CHRIST LIFE than this. They are just terms whereby one could have a general idea what a certain group may be like.

[Steve Epley]

Hobart Freeman had some out there teachings such as his anti-doctor doctrine.

[Praxeas]

Since this was denied by some who seem Charismatic to me I would like to hear your definition of Charismatic?
Mine is simple the abandoning of the necessity of the doctrine and the rejection of the outward standards that identify the Apostolic church.
Examples: Heard-Free-Fender-Munsey-such like.
The charismatic movement was not about a bunch of Pentecostals that abandoned standards (an unbiblical term), but was a movement that consisted of Pentecostal type worship, a belief in the gifts, a rejection of the idea that tongues was the evidence of the baptism of the Spirit (any one of the gifts would qualify) that such tongues were really the gift of tongues and generally they were Trinitarian

[Michael The Disciple]

Hobart Freeman had some out there teachings such as his anti-doctor doctrine.

You never heard of Apostolics who taught the same? Do you deny he was a "Charismatic"?

[Michael The Disciple]

The charismatic movement was not about a bunch of Pentecostals that abandoned standards (an unbiblical term), but was a movement that consisted of Pentecostal type worship, a belief in the gifts, a rejection of the idea that tongues was the evidence of the baptism of the Spirit (any one of the gifts would qualify) that such tongues were really the gift of tongues and generally they were Trinitarian

Prax,

As many Charismatics would say tongues ARE the initial evidence as would say any gift will do. Again there is over generalization. But you certainly are right that Charismatic was NOT a movement founded by Oneness Pentecostals looking for an easier way. Most of them I was familiar with did not know what Oneness Pentecostal even was.

[U376977]

Prax,

As many Charismatics would say tongues ARE the initial evidence as would say any gift will do. Again there is over generalization. But you certainly are right that Charismatic was NOT a movement founded by Oneness Pentecostals looking for an easier way. Most of them I was familiar with did not know what Oneness Pentecostal even was.

There may be some lay people or regional leaders of Charismatics that teach that tongues is the initial evidence, but by far, the majority of Charismatics teach any gift will do, including receiving a healing. I have personally heard this teaching from Oral Roberts, Hagin, Copeland, Hickie, etc, and on and on. Jamie Buckingham wrote it in his book that helped define Charismatic doctrine and he taught any gift will do. It was taught that way by the Sanfords--Charismatic leaders in the early days. Even the FGBMF came to teach any gift will do.

As to tongues, they turn it on and off like a water faucet. Most
Apostolics or Pentecostals believe that you should receive an "unction" before speaking on tongues. They will pray UNTIL they pray in tongues. If you asked a Charismatic, please pray in tongues. I want to hear what it sounds like. They could IMMEDIATELY start speaking. The could be watching the super bowl---mind no where near God--and start speaking in tongues at THEIR WILL. No so with most Pentecostals or Apostilics. They might watch the same super bowl, but COULD NOT in good conscience start to immediately pray in the HG. In short, Charismatics believe the HG is responsive to THEIR WILL, Pentecostals and Apostolics believe they have to have a leading or unction to speak in the Holy Ghost.

[Sherri]

There may be some lay people or regional leaders of Charismatics that teach that tongues is the initial evidence, but by far, the majority of Charismatics teach any gift will do, including receiving a healing. I have personally heard this teaching from Oral Roberts, Hagin, Copeland, Hickie, etc, and on and on. Jamie Buckingham wrote it in his book that helped define Charismatic doctrine and he taught any gift will do. It was taught that way by the Sanfords--Charismatic leaders in the early days. Even the FGBMF came to teach any gift will do.

As to tongues, they turn it on and off like a water faucet. Most
Apostolics or Pentecostals believe that you should receive an "unction" before speaking on tongues. They will pray UNTIL they pray in tongues. If you asked a Charismatic, please pray in tongues. I want to hear what it sounds like. They could IMMEDIATELY start speaking. The could be watching the super bowl---mind no where near God--and start speaking in tongues at THEIR WILL. No so with most Pentecostals or Apostilics. They might watch the same super bowl, but COULD NOT in good conscience start to immediately pray in the HG. In short, Charismatics believe the HG is responsive to THEIR WILL, Pentecostals and Apostolics believe they have to have a leading or unction to speak in the Holy Ghost.I can speak in tongues at any time, just as easily as speaking in English. The Holy Ghost dwells in me, and I can pray in the Spirit any time I need to. I'm glad I don't have to "work it up" because sometimes I need to pray in the Spirit in an emergency!!! That doesn't make me Charismatic. I know lots of Pentecostal people who can pray in tongues whenever they want/need to.

[Sam]

I've only read a few of the posts in this thread.

My definition of a Charismatic is one that believes in and/or has experienced the charismata (gifts) of the Spirit.

According to my definition, Elder Epley is a Charismatic because he has received the Holy Ghost Baptism.

[ChTatum]

Sam, you sho is smart.....

[steve p]

Sam just keeps it simple......works for me!!!!

[U376977]

I can speak in tongues at any time, just as easily as speaking in English. The Holy Ghost dwells in me, and I can pray in the Spirit any time I need to. I'm glad I don't have to "work it up" because sometimes I need to pray in the Spirit in an emergency!!! That doesn't make me Charismatic. I know lots of Pentecostal people who can pray in tongues whenever they want/need to.

Then I would consider you an exception. Most of us do not flip on or off the HG like a light switch. I have heard Oral Roberts teaching on this and he will say, "All right, everyone pray in tongues NOW, do it now......now STOP. STOP, pray with the understanding, pray in english. Interpet what you just prayed in your prayer language."

Please read my first post on this thread on pg. 4. I detail several characteristics of Charismatics. I could document them with reference materials if I had the time or interest. And please keep in mind I WAS IN THE MECA OF THE CHARISMATICS at ORU. I probably have heard them preach by the hundreds of hours. I know them. Of course there are exceptions, but to cite and exception to a rule to try to discount the rule is a faulty logic.

[Pro31:28]

I've only read a few of the posts in this thread.

My definition of a Charismatic is one that believes in and/or has experienced the charismata (gifts) of the Spirit.

According to my definition, Elder Epley is a Charismatic because he has received the Holy Ghost Baptism.

Sam,

I like you!!! You make it simple and sweet! :friend