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Scott Hutchinson
07-14-2008, 06:35 PM
Suppose a Christian has stomach probelms and decides to drink a little Passover wine for medicinal purposes,is this person sinning by drinking a little wine ?

RandyWayne
07-14-2008, 06:37 PM
Only man has made it a sin..... Just like 'man' has been trying to take the wine that Jesus created at the wedding feast and turn it into grape juice.

Scott Hutchinson
07-14-2008, 06:44 PM
I don't drink wine myself,but I do take wine in communion with brethren that practice that.I know everybody can't handle this but wine for cooking and communion and such does seem to be different that wine drunk to get stoned from.

freeatlast
07-14-2008, 06:50 PM
I don't drink wine myself,but I do take wine in communion with brethren that practice that.I know everybody can't handle this but wine for cooking and communion and such does seem to be different that wine drunk to get stoned from.

That is the ONLY problem Scott. there is no scripture that forbids the use of wine or other alcoholic beverage.

The doctrine of "TeeTotalling" is an america made doctrine.

Jermyn Davidson
07-14-2008, 07:02 PM
That is the ONLY problem Scott. there is no scripture that forbids the use of wine or other alcoholic beverage.

The doctrine of "TeeTotalling" is an america made doctrine.

Well the Biblical principles would be:

Not to defile the temple of God;

Avoid the appearance of evil;

Christians shouldn't make other Christians stumble;

But then I never liked wine any way.

Doesn't Proverbs speak against drinking red wines? Does that mean other wines are good to guzzle?

I do like Guinness (beer)-- but I don't drink because of the scriptures above. Earlier this year I tried to "enjoy" a beer, but there was no joy in it, at all.

Christians are better off being Christians and in practice, separated, from some of the stuff that our culture partakes in. Well, I can see I'm better off.

Scott Hutchinson
07-14-2008, 07:11 PM
Does not the Bible distinguish between like passover wine and hard liquor that moveth in the cup ?
Maybe some of the brethren that use wine for the communion might have some insight here.

Scott Hutchinson
07-14-2008, 07:12 PM
I don't care to drink alcohol myself either.

freeatlast
07-14-2008, 07:30 PM
I always enjoy pointing out Dt 14:26 to those who say God prohibits the use of alcoholic beverage.

Read the verse in it's setting and then explain why God would tell his children to buy wine and other strong drink and enjoy it?

Do I promote the abuse of drink? No! But the bible does not condemn it's use in moderation.

RandyWayne
07-14-2008, 07:32 PM
Well the Biblical principles would be:

Not to defile the temple of God;

Avoid the appearance of evil;

Christians shouldn't make other Christians stumble;

But then I never liked wine any way.

Doesn't Proverbs speak against drinking red wines? Does that mean other wines are good to guzzle?

I do like Guinness (beer)-- but I don't drink because of the scriptures above. Earlier this year I tried to "enjoy" a beer, but there was no joy in it, at all.

Christians are better off being Christians and in practice, separated, from some of the stuff that our culture partakes in. Well, I can see I'm better off.

This is about the only reason I can see for totally abstaining.... and then only in the presence of a weaker brother or one who has been so damaged by others that they cannot cope with even moderate consumption from someone else in their company.

And I do not care for beer myself.... Except with a good BBQ'ed baby back ribs!

ReformedDave
07-14-2008, 07:33 PM
Scott, for a sweet guy you have a habit of asking provocative questions and then bowing out.......:whistle:whistle

ReformedDave
07-14-2008, 07:34 PM
This is about the only reason I can see for totally abstaining.... and then only in the presence of a weaker brother or one who has been so damaged by others that they cannot cope with even moderate consumption from someone else in their company.

Remember, weakness is not a normal aspect of the Christian life. Most are not weak as much as looking to point fingers.

Cindy
07-14-2008, 07:35 PM
Suppose a Christian has stomach probelms and decides to drink a little Passover wine for medicinal purposes,is this person sinning by drinking a little wine ?

A doctor actually prescribed a certain amount of wine for my husband every day. No I don't think it is a sin.

RandyWayne
07-14-2008, 07:36 PM
Remember, weakness is not a normal aspect of the Christian life. Most are not weak as much as looking to point fingers.

It shouldn't be... But it is. Just look at how many get upset when others "take liberties" that they feel are not allowed.

RandyWayne
07-14-2008, 07:37 PM
A doctor actually prescribed a certain amount of wine for my husband every day. No I don't think it is a sin..

All you have to do is look at the regular stories of the latest 110-115 year old to die. Nearly ALL of them are said to enjoy a "glass of wine" or "shot of sherri" every day.

ReformedDave
07-14-2008, 07:49 PM
It shouldn't be... But it is. Just look at how many get upset when others "take liberties" that they feel are not allowed.

That's not what the Bible describes as 'weakness'. That's usually legalism raising it's head.

If I went out to eat with someone and my drinking a beer would cause them to sin against their conscience and/or drink to excess I would not have one.

RandyWayne
07-14-2008, 07:59 PM
That's not what the Bible describes as 'weakness'. That's usually legalism raising it's head.

If I went out to eat with someone and my drinking a beer would cause them to sin against their conscience and/or drink to excess I would not have one.

That is what I have been saying all along.

Just look at the ultra conservative and super spiritual among us (not just this forum, but everywhere). Who is it that gets upset when someone does something that they deem to be 'sinful'? Should they not be the 'strong'? Instead they are actually the 'weak'. They are the ones WE need to tip toe around lest we offend them with our liberties.

U376977
07-14-2008, 08:16 PM
So all you stong ones who can drink, I am strong also. Lets have a party, time place and date to follow:

I will buy some kosher wine, does red cherry sound good? You BYB, someone buy me some Heinekin. And you could even bring some "uncle Bud." That would do when I could not afford the expensive stuff. We will put on some good music. I like SG, Praise and Worship and black gospel music. If you want to hear something else then bring your own CD. After we finish off all our beer and wine and fellowship, hopefully no one will be drunk, that would be crossing a line forbidden by scripture, we will have a prayer meeting. Bring your prayer list, I will have oil and we will pray for each other's weaknesses and illnesses. Then before you leave we can have a couple more beers and have a praise service, I can get the elders from the church to come and play some guitar for us. Sound good?

ReformedDave
07-14-2008, 08:18 PM
So all you stong ones who can drink, I am strong also. Lets have a party, time place and date to follow:

I will buy some kosher wine, does red cherry sound good? You BYB, someone buy me some Heinekin. And you could even bring some "uncle Bud." That would do when I could not afford the expensive stuff. We will put on some good music. I like SG, Praise and Worship and black gospel music. If you want to hear something else then bring your own CD. After we finish off all our beer and wine and fellowship, hopefully no one will be drunk, that would be crossing a line forbidden by scripture, we will have a prayer meeting. Bring your prayer list, I will have oil and we will pray for each other's weaknesses and illnesses. Then before you leave we can have a couple more beers and have a praise service, I can get the elders from the church to come and play some guitar for us. Sound good?

What a misrepresentation. But that's OK. You've seen miracles.

U376977
07-14-2008, 08:21 PM
What a misrepresentation. But that's OK. You've seen miracles.

How is it? If you can drink surely you can do it at anytime? In fact, if the whole church is "stong" then the pastor can have a bottle in the pulpit!

RandyWayne
07-14-2008, 08:22 PM
So all you stong ones who can drink, I am strong also. Lets have a party, time place and date to follow:

I will buy some kosher wine, does red cherry sound good? You BYB, someone buy me some Heinekin. And you could even bring some "uncle Bud." That would do when I could not afford the expensive stuff. We will put on some good music. I like SG, Praise and Worship and black gospel music. If you want to hear something else then bring your own CD. After we finish off all our beer and wine and fellowship, hopefully no one will be drunk, that would be crossing a line forbidden by scripture, we will have a prayer meeting. Bring your prayer list, I will have oil and we will pray for each other's weaknesses and illnesses. Then before you leave we can have a couple more beers and have a praise service, I can get the elders from the church to come and play some guitar for us. Sound good?

THAT is exactly what I was talking about it my prior post.

And no, I would not have a beer or glass of wine around you....

ReformedDave
07-14-2008, 08:26 PM
How is it? If you can drink surely you can do it at anytime? In fact, if the whole church is "stong" then the pastor can have a bottle in the pulpit!

Except the church service isn't a time for partying. It's a time for corporate worship.

But we do use wine in communion and there are a couple of members that feel they should use grape juice so it is provided.

Aquila
07-14-2008, 08:30 PM
I used to believe drinking alcohol of any kind was a sin.

Heart disease runs in my family and I had some health problems last year. Everyone over 50 has had heart surgery. My mother died at 54 years old of a heart attack. My doctor advised I watch my diet, exercise, and even proposed that I drink a glass of red wine 4 to 5 times a week with dinner.

I began studying about wines in biblical times and discovered that there is actually far more evidence in the Bible that wine is a blessing not to be abused.

I never get drunk. I've learned to enjoy a good glass of wine with dinner or before bed on occasion. I've also learned to enjoy a good brandy on special occasions. In all things I give the glory of God and thank him for a gift to enjoy.

But here are my rules. I only have a drink with dinner or before bed in my own home or when with family (I'll have a glass of wine with Christmas or Thanksgiving dinner while with family). I never drink anything when out nor do I drink anything around a brother or a sister.

ReformedDave
07-14-2008, 08:32 PM
I never get drunk. I've learned to enjoy a good glass of wine with dinner or before bed on occasion. I've also learned to enjoy a good brandy on special occasions, all to the glory of God.


I concur. But you don't need me to. Scripture already does that. Great post.

SDG
07-14-2008, 08:35 PM
For some the Bible is not enough.

ReformedDave
07-14-2008, 08:36 PM
For some the Bible is not enough.

It's always been a temptation, all the way back to Genesis.

Aquila
07-14-2008, 08:50 PM
I read an awesome book some time back when I hit a spiritual crisis in my life. I was ready to give up entirely on living for God. I was saved and served in an ultraconservative church that didn't even believe in fresh air. I was spiritually dying inside. The rules...the fear...the inadequacy, the hiding of my failures, and the judgmental elitism that destroyed so many of those relationships I cherished and am only now beginning to rebuild. My wife was a mess, I was a mess, and she was "tired". We were ready to quit on Pentecost. We went on vacation in Canada and in the fresh wilderness air on Charleston Lake we felt the Lord loud and clear...we had to leave our church and seek...Him. We had to leave our rules and seek...Him. Then while browsing a book section at local store the Lord led me to a book titled, 6 Rules Every Man Must Break, by Bill Perkins. I picked up the book and looked it over and sat it down. I began to walk away and suddenly I felt a spiritual compulsion to turn around and buy the book. So I picked it up and bought it. This book revolutionized my walk with God. Here's a link to it...

http://www.amazon.com/Rules-Every-Man-Must-Break/dp/1414311400

WARNING: This book isn't for everyone. It will challenge tradition and promise a scandalous freedom in Christ. I'll never be the same after reading it. I pray it helps some of you too.

Mrs. LPW
07-14-2008, 08:54 PM
So what happens with your new converts who are pot smokers and drinkers? Do you tell them not to drink until they are drunk, but they can still drink?

Most people coming out of the world today, drank to party, drank to get fuzzy headed, drank to have fun. (not all, most)

Our newest babies stopped drinking and not one person told them to. In fact, it was never mentioned, discussed, brought up in any way. They dropped it completely.

The Bible talks about Wine being a mocker, and strong drink being raging.
The NT talks about wine for the stomach's sake. The NT talks about wine for communion or nourishment.

The NT talks about new wine, the New Testement talks about being filled with the Spirit...

That's Bible.
All else is supposition, and provision for your own desires, nothing more.
:)

Scott Hutchinson
07-14-2008, 08:57 PM
You guys know that Elder Epley uses passover wine for coummion.
Bro.Flemming that used to be the webmaster on FCF is very knowledgeable on Biblical wines.

Scott Hutchinson
07-14-2008, 08:58 PM
MRS.LPW I understand where you are coming from.

Scott Hutchinson
07-14-2008, 09:00 PM
See wine is a mocker,wouldn't mean that all wine is not classed the same,wouldn't there be a difference between Passover wine and other kinds.

Scott Hutchinson
07-14-2008, 09:01 PM
Would a person using Nyquil be sinning,or would those taking Loradine as prescribed by a Doctor be sinning ?

Mrs. LPW
07-14-2008, 09:05 PM
Would a person using Nyquil be sinning,or would those taking Loradine as prescribed by a Doctor be sinning ?

My opinion on this would be covered in my previous post.

Scott Hutchinson
07-14-2008, 09:07 PM
Sister LPW I do value what you say and i don't drink my Pastor uses grape juice for the communion,but I do think Passover wine is acceptable for communion.

Mrs. LPW
07-14-2008, 09:09 PM
I agree with you. We use juice in our church. I'm fine with that as well.

ReformedDave
07-14-2008, 09:10 PM
So what happens with your new converts who are pot smokers and drinkers? Do you tell them not to drink until they are drunk, but they can still drink?

Most people coming out of the world today, drank to party, drank to get fuzzy headed, drank to have fun. (not all, most)

Our newest babies stopped drinking and not one person told them to. In fact, it was never mentioned, discussed, brought up in any way. They dropped it completely.

The Bible talks about Wine being a mocker, and strong drink being raging.
The NT talks about wine for the stomach's sake. The NT talks about wine for communion or nourishment.

The NT talks about new wine, the New Testement talks about being filled with the Spirit...

That's Bible.
All else is supposition, and provision for your own desires, nothing more.
:)

New babies? If they are grounded in the faith they must hear the complete word of God. While scripture gives great warning about the use/misuse of wine it also praises it and there were even wine offerings. That Jesus drank wine is obvious or why would He be accused of being a wine abuser and a glutton if he didn't on occasion drink and enjoy fine food?

I do believe in knowing our strengths and weaknesses and if someone cannot drink without sinning by all means don't drink.

Scott Hutchinson
07-14-2008, 09:11 PM
In the North American culture,people abuse things easily so many people can not control their use of wine.

RevDWW
07-14-2008, 09:14 PM
Skip the wine and go straight to Nyquil.......Pentecostal sip'n whiskey......:ursofunny

Seems the scripture advocates a "little" wine for the stomach sake, but not drinking it for social gatherings and parties or wine wherein there is excess.

Mrs. LPW
07-14-2008, 09:14 PM
In the North American culture,people abuse things easily so many people could not control their use of wine.

In North America there are people who drink the occasional glass of wine, but there are plenty more who drink to party.

Mrs. LPW
07-14-2008, 09:15 PM
Skip the wine and go straight to Nyquil.......Pentecostal sip'n whiskey......:ursofunny

Seems the scripture advocates a "little" wine for the stomach sake, but not drinking it for social gatherings and parties or wine wherein there is excess.

Seems to me you are right. :)

ReformedDave
07-14-2008, 09:15 PM
In the North American culture,people abuse things easily so many people could not control their use of wine.

The biggest mistake was prohibition except Nascar came out of it.

Kay B
07-14-2008, 09:15 PM
A doctor actually prescribed a certain amount of wine for my husband every day. No I don't think it is a sin.

Is he obeying everything the doctor advised him to do or just this particular advice? :whistle :evilglee

ReformedDave
07-14-2008, 09:17 PM
In North America there are people who drink the occasional glass of wine, but there are plenty more who drink to party.

Just because there is abuse, even rampant abuse, doesn't mean that there is not a proper enjoyment of it.

Mrs. LPW
07-14-2008, 09:17 PM
New babies? If they are grounded in the faith they must hear the complete word of God. While scripture gives great warning about the use/misuse of wine it also praises it and there were even wine offerings. That Jesus drank wine is obvious or why would He be accused of being a wine abuser and a glutton if he didn't on occasion drink and enjoy fine food?

I do believe in knowing our strengths and weaknesses and if someone cannot drink without sinning by all means don't drink.

Our "new babies" were about four months coming to church, maybe a month after being baptised when they got rid of their beer fridge.
We never ever had a discussion with them on alcohol. Still haven't.

Mrs. LPW
07-14-2008, 09:18 PM
Is he obeying everything the doctor advised him to do or just this particular advice? :whistle :evilglee

:toofunny

Mrs. LPW
07-14-2008, 09:20 PM
Don't be drunk with wine, but be filled with the Spirit.

And it's up to you, what you do with the admonition.

Aquila
07-14-2008, 09:23 PM
Jesus drank wine at dinners and weddings bros. And I do believe it was real wine. I've heard the word studies and all that...but a systematic study of wine in ancient culture and the actual uses of all terms for wine will reveal that Jesus enjoyed wine and that it is a gift to man. I do not believe in drunken revelry. A little to enjoy and for health is not a sin.

Scott Hutchinson
07-14-2008, 09:24 PM
Here is one article.http://www.tbaptist.com/aab/alcoholscoreboard.htm

chrisfromCLC
07-14-2008, 09:24 PM
If drinking red wine for your cholesterol is sinning, then taking Nyquil for your cough is also sinning. Red wine is a whole lot better for your liver than any of the 'statin' cholesterol drugs. Those drugs are so rough, you have to have liver function tests every few months.
I have a feeling that if some drug company took red wine, relabeled it with a new name and called it 'medicine' the same people here that say drinking is wrong would say it was ok to "take" this drug if it was prescribed to them.

I'll go on to state my personal opinion--I don't think drinking is a sin, as long as it's done in moderation. Why is it any worse for my body to drink an alcoholic drink or two (i like appletini) every day than it is for me to be drinking a whole 2-liter of Mt.Dew every day? It all comes down to whether you do it too much or not. The Mt.Dew wouldn't be bad for me if i drank a small amount with meals. But those of us who drink soft drinks all the time know that the amount of calories and sugar in those is making us overweight and causing diabetes. Just like drinking a lot of alcohol will cause you to be drunk, and can cause health problems over time. If it's done in moderation, it's OK.

For those who have no self-control, stay away from alcohol. Stay away from Hershey bars and ice cream too.

Scott Hutchinson
07-14-2008, 09:26 PM
Here is another.http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/1.html

ReformedDave
07-14-2008, 09:27 PM
The most biblical book I know of on the subject-

http://www.amazon.com/God-Gave-Wine-Bible-Alcohol/dp/0970032668

RandyWayne
07-14-2008, 09:28 PM
If drinking red wine for your cholesterol is sinning, then taking Nyquil for your cough is also sinning. Red wine is a whole lot better for your liver than any of the 'statin' cholesterol drugs. Those drugs are so rough, you have to have liver function tests every few months.
I have a feeling that if some drug company took red wine, relabeled it with a new name and called it 'medicine' the same people here that say drinking is wrong would say it was ok to "take" this drug if it was prescribed to them.

I'll go on to state my personal opinion--I don't think drinking is a sin, as long as it's done in moderation. Why is it any worse for my body to drink an alcoholic drink or two (i like appletini) every day than it is for me to be drinking a whole 2-liter of Mt.Dew every day? It all comes down to whether you do it too much or not. The Mt.Dew wouldn't be bad for me if i drank a small amount with meals. But those of us who drink soft drinks all the time know that the amount of calories and sugar in those is making us overweight and causing diabetes. Just like drinking a lot of alcohol will cause you to be drunk, and can cause health problems over time. If it's done in moderation, it's OK.

For those who have no self-control, stay away from alcohol. Stay away from Hershey bars and ice cream too.

Thar ya go! Ya just insulted the redneck drink a choice!

Scott Hutchinson
07-14-2008, 09:29 PM
http://www.gospelway.com/morality/drinking_alcohol.php

Scott Hutchinson
07-14-2008, 09:32 PM
One more for consideration.http://www.1timothy4-13.com/files/teach/bib&wine.html

MikeinAR
07-14-2008, 09:35 PM
This subject is a tough one for me. First of all, I'm a non drinker. I drank one margurita in my life in my college days and that thing was so nasty I never took another drink. There is a history of alcoholic tendencies in my extended family and I think drinking alcohol is better left undone for me personally.

I do believe that wine in moderation is not a sin. If a person drinks it for health benefit or enjoyment and doesn't allow it to begin to rule in their life and take lordship of their life, why would I condemn that person.

There is absolutely zero doubt in my mind that Christs first miracle was fermented wine. The jewish custom of that day was to drink fermented grape juice at weddings. Had the "wine" been grape juice one is hard pressed to explain why the jews present would have been so complimentary given that custom and their expectations.

The scripture that would prohibit me personally from drinking wine in public would be the one warning against offending a brother and causing him to stumble. I would worry that a weaker brother would see me partaking and possibly fall to a weakness of his own. Scripture is clear in warning against behavior that contributes to that. If I were to partake it would not be in a public setting due to that aspect.

Scripture deplores and is clear on the sinfulness of drunkeness, but a blanket condemnation of the responsible enjoyment of wine would contradict scripture.

ReformedDave
07-14-2008, 09:35 PM
Scott, you've read some Gentry- You should read these and then make up your mind.

https://www.kennethgentry.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=380

ReformedDave
07-14-2008, 09:37 PM
This subject is a tough one for me. First of all, I'm a non drinker. I drank one margurita in my life in my college days and that thing was so nasty I never took another drink. There is a history of alcoholic tendencies in my extended family and I think drinking alcohol is better left undone for me personally.

I do believe that wine in moderation is not a sin. If a person drinks it for health benefit or enjoyment and doesn't allow it to begin to rule in their life and take lordship of their life, why would I condemn that person.

There is absolutely zero doubt in my mind that Christs first miracle was fermented wine. The jewish custom of that day was to drink fermented grape juice at weddings. Had the "wine" been grape juice one is hard pressed to explain why the jews present would have been so complimentary given that custom and their expectations.


The scripture that would prohibit me personally from drinking wine in public would be the one warning against offending a brother and causing him to stumble. I would worry that a weaker brother would see me partaking and possibly fall to a weakness of his own. Scripture is clear in warning against behavior that contributes to that. If I were to partake it would not be in a public setting do that fact.

Scripture deplores and is clear on the sinfulness of drunkeness, but a blanket condemnation of the responsible enjoyment of wine would contradict scripture.

Great post. If you cannot drink without sinning by all means DON'T drink.

Mrs. LPW
07-14-2008, 09:39 PM
Great post. If you cannot drink without sinning by all means DON'T drink.

Not everyone knows thier limits right away... and once sucked in, it can be powerful and hard to climb back out.

That's where often we overlook the cry of wisdom in the church.
Not legalism,
Not rules,
Wisdom.

Hoovie
07-14-2008, 09:41 PM
Rum and Coke please.

ReformedDave
07-14-2008, 09:42 PM
Not everyone knows thier limits right away... and once sucked in, it can be powerful and hard to climb back out.

That's where often we overlook the cry of wisdom in the church.
Not legalism,
Not rules,
Wisdom.

This applies to a lot of issues beyond alcohol. What right do we have of adding to or taking away from Scripture?! Just stick with the Book.

Mrs. LPW
07-14-2008, 09:45 PM
This applies to a lot of issues beyond alcohol. What right do we have of adding to or taking away from Scripture?! Just stick with the Book.

Indeed it does.

I'm not adding or taking away, not sure who you're referring to.
I'm also not arguing. Just making some biblical statements and observations.

Scott Hutchinson
07-14-2008, 09:45 PM
Yes I've read Gentry and Bahnsen too.

chrisfromCLC
07-14-2008, 09:49 PM
Thar ya go! Ya just insulted the redneck drink a choice!

uh oh... nothing like watching dale jr. and drinking a dew! (i really hate NASCAR)

ReformedDave
07-14-2008, 09:49 PM
Indeed it does.

I'm not adding or taking away, not sure who you're referring to.
I'm also not arguing. Just making some biblical statements and observations.

What I'm referring to is that we have a tendency to take positions that are not only weaker than what Scripture dictates but also stronger. If Scripture states something is permissible under certain guidelines who are we to place a heavier yoke?

ReformedDave
07-14-2008, 09:50 PM
Yes I've read Gentry and Bahnsen too.

You are not far from the kingdom.....:ursofunny

MikeinAR
07-14-2008, 09:54 PM
What I'm referring to is that we have a tendency to take positions that are not only weaker than what Scripture dictates but also stronger. If Scripture states something is permissible under certain guidelines who are we to place a heavier yoke?

I listened to Anthony Mangun's sermon at BOTT this year and while I didn't agree with some of his positions on traditions and things like that, I agreed with his point on that. He had a room full of both con's and lib's and basically told them to preach it as straight as they wanted too. He told them to preach against fresh air if they wanted to, but to remember those who added to we're going to be judged just like those who took away.

He said many were quick to measure those who took away but were slack on measuring those who added too. It got pretty quiet!

Mrs. LPW
07-14-2008, 09:54 PM
What I'm referring to is that we have a tendency to take positions that are not only weaker than what Scripture dictates but also stronger. If Scripture states something is permissible under certain guidelines who are we to place a heavier yoke?

Indeed.

Scott Hutchinson
07-14-2008, 09:55 PM
Well I do have a probelm with unconditional election,but I do have a CD of dominion theology works on it.

Scott Hutchinson
07-14-2008, 09:56 PM
This is the thing we must not make the bible fit our preferences,we must leave the scripture as it reads in proper context.

Mrs. LPW
07-14-2008, 09:57 PM
This is the thing we must not make the bible fit our preferences,we must leave the scripture as it reads in proper context.

Indeed, the Apostle new we'd be better served being filled with the Spirit.

Jermyn Davidson
07-14-2008, 10:37 PM
Rum and Coke please.

So, I am reading that Holy Ghost filled, seasoned Christians are telling me it's ok to drink a little wine-- just don't get drunk.

Eat a little food, but don't over eat-- just don't get fat.

If wine is ok in moderation, would Rum and Coke be permissible?

How about just Rum-- as long as I don't get drunk?

Really, I don't like wine, but I do like Guinness. So it's ok to drink Guinness?

When I tried to enjoy my last beer, it wasn't enjoyable-- but maybe it will be now that I know I can have my beer and still go to Heaven!






Guys, we have to draw a line somewhere-- or else all becomes lunacy!

Aquila
07-14-2008, 10:41 PM
Half of my wife's family is Jewish. Most don't realize this but the Last Supper was a meal in preparation for the passover, and Seder wine was used. Seder wine is required by Jewish law to be alcoholic. If Jesus kept the Jewish customs of his day...he drank alcoholic wine.

Those that try to draw a strong distinction between fermented and unfermented based on mere word studies are oversimplifying a more complex hermeneutic. The "new wine" and words they associate with "grape juice" are often used for both unfermented and fermented wines up to weeks of ages. I believe it was that a wine could be considered oinos for up to a year, if my memory serves me correctly. Also it's important to note that while some went through an extensive process to keep wine from fermenting, the purpose wasn't to provide unfermented wine...but to preserve the wine for use. The majority of wine in the ancient world wasn't subjected to these processes. In fact they didn't have pasturization as we know it today (like with Welch's). In fact wine began the fermentation process rather quickly and was considered fermented often within six hours of the wine press.

There's so much that goes into this there's an entire CULTURE of detail about this, and once one is familiar with it the simple little word studies and claims that Jesus drank grape juice and that the Bible condemns all alcoholic beverages seems a bit silly.

However, the Bible always condemns drunkenness.

Drunkenness is to wine what gluttony is to food. Neither wine or food are sinful in and of themselves...it's drunkenness and gluttony that we have to guard against.

Jermyn Davidson
07-14-2008, 10:42 PM
Mary Jane definitely has medicinal uses.

Is it ok to smoke a little "herb"-- it's naturally good for you!

God created it, so it must be good. My family and I will drink wine with our meals and light up a joint with out dessert. We'll do this behind closed doors, so as to not cause my brother to trip up on my liberty!

Aquila
07-14-2008, 10:44 PM
So, I am reading that Holy Ghost filled, seasoned Christians are telling me it's ok to drink a little wine-- just don't get drunk.

Eat a little food, but don't over eat-- just don't get fat.

If wine is ok in moderation, would Rum and Coke be permissible?

How about just Rum-- as long as I don't get drunk?

Really, I don't like wine, but I do like Guinness. So it's ok to drink Guinness?

When I tried to enjoy my last beer, it wasn't enjoyable-- but maybe it will be now that I know I can have my beer and still go to Heaven!






Guys, we have to draw a line somewhere-- or else all becomes lunacy!

The line is drunkenness and over indulgence. I just had a glass of Riesling within the past 20 minutes. I'm not drunk nor is my thinking clouded. I'm feeling nice and about to check into bed though. ;)

....if I can pull myself from a real addiction....AFF! LOL

MikeinAR
07-14-2008, 10:44 PM
Guys, we have to draw a line somewhere-- or else all becomes lunacy!

I agree that lines have to be drawn. I've drawn them for reasons that I've explained in this thread, but what boundaries are you suggesting we use? If we want to ignore the scriptural accounts of wine drinking in the old and new testament and Jesus first miracle, then I guess we can call all alcoholic beverages drank in any amount sin.

IMO, that would get back to the adding to thing we were talking about.

MikeinAR
07-14-2008, 10:46 PM
Most don't realize this but the Last Supper was a meal in preparation for the passover, and Seder wine was used. Seder wine is required by Jewish law to be alcoholic. If Jesus kept the Jewish customs of his day...he drank alcoholic wine.


Absolutely, 100%, irrefutably correct.

Aquila
07-14-2008, 10:47 PM
Mary Jane definitely has medicinal uses.

Is it ok to smoke a little "herb"-- it's naturally good for you!

God created it, so it must be good. My family and I will drink wine with our meals and light up a joint with out dessert. We'll do this behind closed doors, so as to not cause my brother to trip up on my liberty!

That's ludicrous. Pot is illegal. Alcohol isn't. I've smoked pot when I was younger, I just had a glass of wine a few minutes ago. Let me tell you bro from personal experience...the wine isn't a big deal. The dope...now that's not smart.

However, you mentioned medicinal uses. I believe that God made marijuana. I believe it's abused. If harvested and properly used it may have some medicinal value. But as long as it's illegal and as long as people are abusing it...steer clear unless under legal prescription and direction of a doctor.

Jermyn Davidson
07-14-2008, 10:49 PM
light salad = healthy
weak wine = biblically sound

Big Mac's = fat body
Henessy = drunkard


Or is it ok to practice building my wine guzzling skills to get to the point where Henessy doesn't make me drunk?

Aquila
07-14-2008, 10:56 PM
I say avoid drunkenness. Avoid gluttony. Avoid overindulgence in anything. If you can't control yourself, avoid alcohol.

When I'm a grandpa, I won't care what they say. On some rainy Saturday mornings I'm going to go out to the back porch, spend some time in prayer and study the Word...with a nice warm pipe and a glass of brandy. I'm going to smile and thank God for blessing me with a life so wondrous and a freedom so scandalous...it blinds those who say they can see. ;)

God bless. And goodnight.

Jermyn Davidson
07-14-2008, 11:02 PM
This is why we need Pastors and other spiritual people in the church to guide folks with Biblical principles-- doing so with love and concern for our never dying souls.

It can be a slippery slope for A LOT of people-- advising them Biblically that it's ok to drink a little wine.

If wine is ok, beer becomes justifiable. Beer becomes justifiable, rock gut liquor is much more affordable than beer.

Schlitz Malt Liquor is good for Christians to drink at the times of fellowship after evening service-- mixed with a little Red Bull and we can all drive home!

If our brothers and sisters began to drink like they SOME of them eat, we wouldn't have a church!

We'd have a congregation extremely overweight drunk Christians!

Alcohol does have adverse affects on health, especially when it is overindulged. But since it is addictive in nature, it could lead to overindulgence-- much quicker than a person developing a MT Dew addiction.

The Mt Dew addiction is bad, but not as unhealthy as an alcohol addiction, I'd say.

Just Say No To Drugs AND Alcohol.

Jermyn Davidson
07-14-2008, 11:08 PM
I say avoid drunkenness. Avoid gluttony. Avoid overindulgence in anything. If you can't control yourself, avoid alcohol.

When I'm a grandpa, I won't care what they say. On some rainy Saturday mornings I'm going to go out to the back porch, spend some time in prayer and study the Word...with a nice warm pipe and a glass of brandy. I'm going to smile and thank God for blessing me with a life so wondrous and a freedom so scandalous...it blinds those who say they can see. ;)

God bless. And goodnight.

Why wait!? You can have your brandy right now! Your brandy, your Bible, on your back porch with your shot gun, spittin some tobaccy-- now this is what Christian freedom is all about!

Free to be different, free to be changed-- but I CHOOSE not to be different or changed. That does not sit well with me.

As much as I'd really enjoy the idea that drinking Guinness isn't a negative reflection on my walk with God, somehow I think it is. But maybe this is just MY conviction and maybe, maybe the Bible does justify the moderate consumption of alcohol. I'd rather just not drink.

Please don't be offended. If you're ever in the DC/Baltimore area, maybe we can hang out-- you with your brandy, me with my sweet tea. But we could hang out.

Aquila
07-14-2008, 11:12 PM
Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

If a brother has a beer, a glass of scotch, shot of whiskey, a fine bourbon, or a nice brandy with dinner or before bed in his own home and doesn't get drunk, he's done no sin.

If a brother knows doing so could easily cause him to fall into a drunken binge...it's definitely a sin.

Likewise, if a brother drinks in front of a weaker brother without regard for that brother's convictions, that too is a sin.

Aquila
07-14-2008, 11:14 PM
Why wait!? You can have your brandy right now! Your brandy, your Bible, on your back porch with your shot gun, spittin some tobaccy-- now this is what Christian freedom is all about!

Please don't be offended. If you're ever in the DC/Baltimore area, maybe we can hang out-- you with your brandy, me with my sweet tea. But we could hang out.

LOL

I don't know if I'd go that far bro. I'm a rather tame individual. And I don't believe in owning a firearm. But hey, if it wouldn't offend you, I'd be honored to enjoy a nice brandy with you or a nice warm pipe on a cool rainy day. But I'd only enjoy that smoke on Saturdays. Just my thing.

I'd love the sweet tea bro. But my doctor put it off limits. I am permitted a glass of wine or a brandy.

Aquila
07-14-2008, 11:25 PM
I think it's amusing how we all revert to spiritual communism, issuing rules and regulations binding upon all, where the Bible makes no such laws.

This is where personal spiritual discipline comes into play. You know what you can do and what you can't. You know what God has convicted you to do based on what you need.

It's easier to set a law and demand it be obeyed. It takes away the need for prayer and sincere introspection. It takes away the fear of freedom. It also makes others beholden to another's convictions, because so often they cannot control themselves unless everyone has to play by the same rules God has spoken to them. Here's the deal...I feel it's lazy. lol

Some things are specifically mentioned in Scripture. These we must do. Other things are a matter of personal conviction. I do not believe a brother should drink or anything else around brethren who might be weak or stumble at it. Likewise, I don't believe the weaker brethren should judge another's meat or drink. We're grown adults led of the Holy Ghost.

Here's a good example. God has spoken to me clearly on this. God doesn't want me to own a firearm. He promised to withdraw his hand of protection should I buy one. But I know a wonderful brother with a collection of fine weapons. Do I judge him? No. I will share how passionate I am about my convictions. But I'd never attempt to force him to live by my convictions.

Now I might enjoy a nice brandy now and again. But guess what....my brother might have some strong convictions against that. Does he judge me? Prayerfully no. Prayerfully we pray for each other and maintain the bond of love in the midst of Christian liberty and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

StMark
07-14-2008, 11:30 PM
I think it's amusing how we all revert to spiritual communism, issuing rules and regulations binding upon all, where the Bible makes no such laws.

This is where personal spiritual discipline comes into play. You know what you can do and what you can't. You know what God has convicted you to do based on what you need.

It's easier to set a law and demand it be obeyed. It takes away the need for prayer and sincere introspection. It takes away the fear of freedom. It also makes others beholden to another's convictions, because so often they cannot control themselves unless everyone has to play by the same rules God has spoken to them. Here's the deal...I feel it's lazy. lol

Some things are specifically mentioned in Scripture. These we must do. Other things are a matter of personal conviction. I do not believe a brother should drink or anything else around brethren who might be weak or stumble at it. Likewise, I don't believe the weaker brethren should judge another's meat or drink. We're grown adults led of the Holy Ghost.

Here's a good example. God has spoken to me clearly on this. God doesn't want me to own a firearm. He promised to withdraw his hand of protection should I buy one. But I know a wonderful brother with a collection of fine weapons. Do I judge him? No. I will share how passionate I am about my convictions. But I'd never attempt to force him to live by my convictions.

Now I might enjoy a nice brandy now and again. But guess what....my brother might have some strong convictions against that. Does he judge me? Prayerfully no. Prayerfully we pray for each other and maintain the bond of love in the midst of Christian liberty and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

O my LORD I know you are Joking right???
Tell me you are !!!!!!!




.

Aquila
07-14-2008, 11:36 PM
O my LORD I know you are Joking right???
Tell me you are !!!!!!!

Bro....I'd take a small glass of fine brandy before bed over having a bad attitude any day. Besides, my doctor advised wine and permitted brandy over things like soda pop and tea. In moderation its actually good for you.

Here's a link:

http://www.nbc11.com/health/5535573/detail.html

But Bro. Mark...you know your limits. If God has convicted you about it...don't do it.

StMark
07-14-2008, 11:46 PM
Bro....I'd take a small glass of fine brandy before bed over having a bad attitude any day. Besides, my doctor advised wine and permitted brandy over things like soda pop and tea. In moderation its actually good for you.

Here's a link:

http://www.nbc11.com/health/5535573/detail.html


I'm going to tell Bro Epley about this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




.

1Corinth2v4
07-14-2008, 11:56 PM
Suppose a Christian has stomach problems and decides to drink a little Passover wine for medicinal purposes,is this person sinning by drinking a little wine ?


Drink pepto-bismol, its intended specifically for stomach aches.

Why glue your eyelids open when NoDoz Pills will do the job?

jaxfam6
07-15-2008, 12:04 AM
I will just say this. Maybe most of you all better not come to my house. Many of you would be offended. I grew up in a non-drinking family. I have a brother who was killed because he and my cousin were out drinking and got in a car accident. Have another brother who is an alcoholic and will not touch the stuff now because he does not want to revert back to those days. ME? well I decided that I control what I do. I found nothing in the Bible against it and I spoke with many ministers on the subject and all of them said that the 'rule' is made because most can not control it. I decided that I would control it and I do. I use it in cooking, I drink a glass for pleasure, and I drink it with friends. Never get drunk that is not allowed. I do not drink and drive either.
So if you do not want to be offended at what you will see at my house better not come by. Now if you want to come enjoy a shot, snort, or glass with me feel free I got plenty to choose from.

Condemn me for for it if you must but remember that Jesus turned water to wine and it was really good stuff. He also drank it. I think he may have even drank enough to feel a little buzz from time to time but I do not think he ever let himself get drunk. So if you condemn me then you are also condemn Him.

If you can not control it then by all means do not drink it but for goodness sake do not get on your high horse and condemn others for enjoying it.

Same goes for gold, silver, jewels. etc.... God gave them to us to enjoy. If I can afford them I will buy them. If you can't then by all means do not go into debt for them.

RandyWayne
07-15-2008, 12:24 AM
"I say, first, medicinal wine from a teaspoon,
Then beer from a bottle!
An' the next thing ya know,
Your son is playin' for money
In a pinch-back suit."

Praxeas
07-15-2008, 12:26 AM
Suppose a Christian has stomach probelms and decides to drink a little Passover wine for medicinal purposes,is this person sinning by drinking a little wine ?
How does wine help stomach problems?

In the case of Timothy I think the deal here is is that water made people sick. It had microbes in it. It was dirty. This is one reason they cut their wine with water.

Jermyn Davidson
07-15-2008, 01:15 AM
Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

If a brother has a beer, a glass of scotch, shot of whiskey, a fine bourbon, or a nice brandy with dinner or before bed in his own home and doesn't get drunk, he's done no sin.

If a brother knows doing so could easily cause him to fall into a drunken binge...it's definitely a sin.

Likewise, if a brother drinks in front of a weaker brother without regard for that brother's convictions, that too is a sin.


At the risk of sounding like the folks I have criticized in the past, I would have to talk to my Pastor about this, first.

But then maybe not. My Pastor wasn't there when the Lord convicted me when I drank my last Guinness-- it didn't even taste the same.

Jermyn Davidson
07-15-2008, 02:00 AM
Now if you want to come enjoy a shot, snort....


ok so what exactly are you snorting? is it at least the good stuff? if not, I've got a cousin in jail but he still has connections. he can hook u right up!


kidding aside, i'm thinking that as you draw closer to the Lord, you are supposed to lose your desire for these worldly "pleasures".

at the same time, living by a list of man-made rules is not God's intention either as we are indeed called to freedom.

don't you want to be holy? i've got a long ways to go, but i can see that the road ahead of me is a long one.

are "sipping saints" holy saints?

Aquila
07-15-2008, 05:36 AM
Drink pepto-bismol, its intended specifically for stomach aches.

Why glue your eyelids open when NoDoz Pills will do the job?

Most wines are better for you than medicines. It's funny, we assume that because it's "medicine" it must be good for us. Wrong. We're an over medicated society. If we would get back to eating and drinking appropriately many would discover health, enjoyment, less stress, and more vitality...not to mention longer life expectancy.

Aquila
07-15-2008, 05:37 AM
How does wine help stomach problems?

In the case of Timothy I think the deal here is is that water made people sick. It had microbes in it. It was dirty. This is one reason they cut their wine with water.

I believe it can easy certain stomach bacteria. Doctors will advise a little wine as part of a heart healthy diet if one has heart disease or is at high risk for heart disease.

Aquila
07-15-2008, 05:40 AM
I will just say this. Maybe most of you all better not come to my house. Many of you would be offended. I grew up in a non-drinking family. I have a brother who was killed because he and my cousin were out drinking and got in a car accident. Have another brother who is an alcoholic and will not touch the stuff now because he does not want to revert back to those days. ME? well I decided that I control what I do. I found nothing in the Bible against it and I spoke with many ministers on the subject and all of them said that the 'rule' is made because most can not control it. I decided that I would control it and I do. I use it in cooking, I drink a glass for pleasure, and I drink it with friends. Never get drunk that is not allowed. I do not drink and drive either.
So if you do not want to be offended at what you will see at my house better not come by. Now if you want to come enjoy a shot, snort, or glass with me feel free I got plenty to choose from.

Condemn me for for it if you must but remember that Jesus turned water to wine and it was really good stuff. He also drank it. I think he may have even drank enough to feel a little buzz from time to time but I do not think he ever let himself get drunk. So if you condemn me then you are also condemn Him.

If you can not control it then by all means do not drink it but for goodness sake do not get on your high horse and condemn others for enjoying it.

Same goes for gold, silver, jewels. etc.... God gave them to us to enjoy. If I can afford them I will buy them. If you can't then by all means do not go into debt for them.

Amen. The Bible requires sobriety and modesty. I stand firmly against drunkenness and immodesty. My wife wears a wedding band and that's all the jewelry we believe in. "Functional" is key for us when it comes to any kind of jewelry.

Aquila
07-15-2008, 05:44 AM
ok so what exactly are you snorting? is it at least the good stuff? if not, I've got a cousin in jail but he still has connections. he can hook u right up!

kidding aside, i'm thinking that as you draw closer to the Lord, you are supposed to lose your desire for these worldly "pleasures".

at the same time, living by a list of man-made rules is not God's intention either as we are indeed called to freedom.

don't you want to be holy? i've got a long ways to go, but i can see that the road ahead of me is a long one.

are "sipping saints" holy saints?

Where does the Bible say we are to give up simple pleasures of life? We marry and enjoy pleasure. We eat and enjoy pleasure. We buy nice beds and air condition our church buildings. We have massaging shower nozzles. We use rinses, skin creams, and oils. My wife goes nuts at Bath & Body Works to pamper herself. Right now I'm enjoying a While Wheat English Muffin, light butter, orange marmalade, and a nice vanilla caramel tea. And let me tell you...it's all very nice.

The Bible condemns sinful pleasures but not all pleasures. Jesus regularly partook in wine. Was he holy?

Aquila
07-15-2008, 05:52 AM
I think there is what is "holy" according to man and then there is what is "holy" according to God. Man needs additional laws, rules, and statutes by which to discipline violators. But all of these laws are external exersizes of religiosity. God's "holiness" has to do with the heart, modesty, moderation, and self control. Sometimes we're so conservative and religious about things, we'd disfellowship Jesus if he walked among us.

Baron1710
07-15-2008, 06:19 AM
Maybe I am getting old but I have the desire to tell a story.

This past weekend we were in the car and my daughter says, "Mom tell me I can't watch Life With Derek" Obviously I wanted to know why she wanted to have a rule saying she couldn't watch something. She had seen something that she considered inappropriate on there and wanted us to tell her not to watch it rather than moderating it herself. Now I realize that children need rules however if she lives her entire life looking for mom and dad to give her a list of do's and don’ts she is going to have problems. So we had a long talk about principles, self control, and doing what is right without a list of rules. I want her to grow up and be able to make wise decisions.

Why is it that the church wants to treat everyone like they are children. Not teaching folks to make godly decisions but rather go to the pastor for a list of what we can do, can't do, what to watch and what not to watch. Scripture teaches that one who is in Christ should have self control. Several people have made fun of the fact that people can drink and be self controlled. Is that not what Jesus did? Those who cannot control themselves should not condemn those who live a Christ like life and enjoy the very same things that he did. In the passage below drunkenness is listed as part of the sin nature but self control (not abstinence) is listed as a fruit of the Spirit.

Proverbs 25:28
Like a city whose walls are broken down is a man who lacks self-control.

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

tamor
07-15-2008, 07:21 AM
My mother in law is a holy-ghost filled christian who drinks 4 oz of wine at night, for health reasons, per doctors instructions. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not a temptation for her to drink more or to "get drunk". Do I think this is wrong? Not in the least!

LadyChocolate
07-15-2008, 07:33 AM
My mother in law is a holy-ghost filled christian who drinks 4 oz of wine at night, for health reasons, per doctors instructions. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not a temptation for her to drink more or to "get drunk". Do I think this is wrong? Not in the least!

The doctors told my dad to do the same for heart issues......I think it would be much better on your body than all the chemicals from meds that doctors prescribe...



LOL... This has nothing to do with the thread..but anyway... I was reminded of when I was about 16 or 17. I grew up in an apostolic home so I never had a drink of wine before... No big deal... But I was over a friends house and I was curious what the big deal was...Why was my friend so anxious to have a drink when her parents weren't home... What was so great about the taste of wine... Sooooo.... She poured me a small amount of which I tasted... Kind of like you would taste a new coffee or something else... I let it sit in my mouth...Thought about that after taste... and that was it... I wasn't tempted to get wasted....I wasn't even doing it out of rebellion...no big deal right? WRONG.... my cousins were there also, did the same thing...but before I was home, they had called my mother and told them I was drinking wine....LOL...Those backstabbers....:club They were happy to see me in trouble... :club :ursofunny

anyway, carry on!

Esther
07-15-2008, 07:44 AM
Suppose a Christian has stomach probelms and decides to drink a little Passover wine for medicinal purposes,is this person sinning by drinking a little wine ?

No, why are you having a tummy ache? :)

Esther
07-15-2008, 07:46 AM
Does not the Bible distinguish between like passover wine and hard liquor that moveth in the cup ?
Maybe some of the brethren that use wine for the communion might have some insight here.

Where in scripture is hard liquor mentioned?

MissBrattified
07-15-2008, 07:50 AM
Where in scripture is hard liquor mentioned?

"Strong drink"

Proverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."

According to Strong's, "strong drink" means "...an intoxicant, that is, intensely alcoholic liquor: - strong drink, + drunkard, strong wine."

Pressing-On
07-15-2008, 07:51 AM
My mother in law is a holy-ghost filled christian who drinks 4 oz of wine at night, for health reasons, per doctors instructions. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not a temptation for her to drink more or to "get drunk". Do I think this is wrong? Not in the least!

I was so sick several years ago that I was just about to call my friend to bring over some of her port wine. I read it was especially used for medicinal purposes. Being that I used to drink a lot before I was in church, I was scared to try, but being that sick - I almost took the plunge. :killinme

Pressing-On
07-15-2008, 07:52 AM
"Strong drink"

Proverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."

According to Strong's, "strong drink" means "...an intoxicant, that is, intensely alcoholic liquor: - strong drink, + drunkard, strong wine."
That must mean we can't drink Tequila. :D

MissBrattified
07-15-2008, 07:52 AM
Scripturally, a drink of wine is not sinful, BUT I think there are plenty of good practical reasons to abstain from drinking completely, AND there are LOTS of scriptures that indicate a lack of wisdom in drinking. Add to that a culture of excess, and a history of alcoholism in my family, and that's enough to advise my children against drinking whatsoever.

Esther
07-15-2008, 07:55 AM
"Strong drink"

Proverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."

According to Strong's, "strong drink" means "...an intoxicant, that is, intensely alcoholic liquor: - strong drink, + drunkard, strong wine."

I didn't realize they knew how to make liquor that far back. :)

Pressing-On
07-15-2008, 07:55 AM
The doctors told my dad to do the same for heart issues......I think it would be much better on your body than all the chemicals from meds that doctors prescribe...



LOL... This has nothing to do with the thread..but anyway... I was reminded of when I was about 16 or 17. I grew up in an apostolic home so I never had a drink of wine before... No big deal... But I was over a friends house and I was curious what the big deal was...Why was my friend so anxious to have a drink when her parents weren't home... What was so great about the taste of wine... Sooooo.... She poured me a small amount of which I tasted... Kind of like you would taste a new coffee or something else... I let it sit in my mouth...Thought about that after taste... and that was it... I wasn't tempted to get wasted....I wasn't even doing it out of rebellion...no big deal right? WRONG.... my cousins were there also, did the same thing...but before I was home, they had called my mother and told them I was drinking wine....LOL...Those backstabbers....:club They were happy to see me in trouble... :club :ursofunny

anyway, carry on!

:killinme

We used to sneak my uncle's cigarettes and go out to the pasture and smoke. I'm so thankful I never got hooked on cigarettes! Whatever adults in your life are doing, kids are going to want to check that out!

Glad you didn't get drunk. :killinme

tamor
07-15-2008, 07:59 AM
I was so sick several years ago that I was just about to call my friend to bring over some of her port wine. I read it was especially used for medicinal purposes. Being that I used to drink a lot before I was in church, I was scared to try, but being that sick - I almost took the plunge. :killinme

I hear ya!

MissBrattified
07-15-2008, 07:59 AM
I didn't realize they knew how to make liquor that far back. :)

Read this:

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/lofiversion/index.php/t16505.html

LUKE2447
07-15-2008, 08:02 AM
Well I do have a probelm with unconditional election,but I do have a CD of dominion theology works on it.


Throw the dominion theology out!

Pressing-On
07-15-2008, 08:04 AM
I hear ya!

So, would you be afraid to touch it again? What about real wine at Communion?

I couldn't do it. It was my drug of choice. :killinme

LUKE2447
07-15-2008, 08:10 AM
Nothing wrong with drinking alcohol in moderation but in todays climate I would never drink in public if I did. I would never want to promote todays mentality among anyone. Also there is really no health benefit you can get from wine or other beverages that you can't get from the source by other means thanks to science. Though wine still works well for longevity and overall health in moderation. To much though hurts your health the alcohol contained in beer, wine and liquor is a neurotoxin that can poison your brain and seriously harm your hormonal balance too.

Actually eating and drinking live grape juice and the skins are much more beneficial than wine. So wine overall is not a solution any better than other means that are less risky to your soul and body.

tamor
07-15-2008, 08:28 AM
So, would you be afraid to touch it again? What about real wine at Communion?

I couldn't do it. It was my drug of choice. :killinme

Nope. I think you made the smartest choice you could make.

Aquila
07-15-2008, 08:36 AM
Nothing wrong with drinking alcohol in moderation but in todays climate I would never drink in public if I did. I would never want to promote todays mentality among anyone. Also there is really no health benefit you can get from wine or other beverages that you can't get from the source by other means thanks to science. Though wine still works well for longevity and overall health in moderation. To much though hurts your health the alcohol contained in beer, wine and liquor is a neurotoxin that can poison your brain and seriously harm your hormonal balance too.

Actually eating and drinking live grape juice and the skins are much more beneficial than wine. So wine overall is not a solution any better than other means that are less risky to your soul and body.

My doctor advised against grape juices. They are EXTREMELY high in sugar and to gain the antioxidant benefit of wine from grape juice would require drinking nearly 5 glasses in one sitting. My doctor said it would cause me to gain weight and she also said, "And then you'd also be confronted with sugar issues." Compare grape juices with soda pop...you might as well load up on pop.

Wine in moderation is good for you. Overall, most alcohol in moderation can even moderate cholestoral. My weight, blood pressure, and numbers were real bad. I lost the weight by changing diet. This also relieved me of my blood pressure issues. But my numbers were still really bad. She told me I could drink wine and get plenty of omega-3s to help this. Guess what, after 4 months of this my numbers were back in line where they should be. I'm still a little overweight, but she said other than that I'm now in very good health.

It's not for everyone. But I'm doing far better now. No meds, pills, or prescriptions. Just some holistic health advice based on ancient practices of health and celebrating life.

Rico
07-15-2008, 08:36 AM
There's nothing in the Bible against drinking small quantities of alcohol, period.

Ferd
07-15-2008, 08:59 AM
My doctor advised against grape juices. They are EXTREMELY high in sugar and to gain the antioxidant benefit of wine from grape juice would require drinking nearly 5 glasses in one sitting. My doctor said it would cause me to gain weight and she also said, "And then you'd also be confronted with sugar issues." Compare grape juices with soda pop...you might as well load up on pop.

Wine in moderation is good for you. Overall, most alcohol in moderation can even moderate cholestoral. My weight, blood pressure, and numbers were real bad. I lost the weight by changing diet. This also relieved me of my blood pressure issues. But my numbers were still really bad. She told me I could drink wine and get plenty of omega-3s to help this. Guess what, after 4 months of this my numbers were back in line where they should be. I'm still a little overweight, but she said other than that I'm now in very good health.

It's not for everyone. But I'm doing far better now. No meds, pills, or prescriptions. Just some holistic health advice based on ancient practices of health and celebrating life.


Im interested in this comment from your doctor. Is there some kind of documentation that points to this?

MissBrattified
07-15-2008, 09:09 AM
My doctor advised against grape juices. They are EXTREMELY high in sugar and to gain the antioxidant benefit of wine from grape juice would require drinking nearly 5 glasses in one sitting. My doctor said it would cause me to gain weight and she also said, "And then you'd also be confronted with sugar issues." Compare grape juices with soda pop...you might as well load up on pop.

Unsweetened grape juice has about 1/3 the calories as sweet wine. It's also lower in sodium and higher in potassium. I'm not sure what the actual sugar content is in either, but if something has less calories, then you are simply drinking LESS CALORIES. LOL!!!!! Unless you are a diabetic, the sugar content is irrelevant. It's the calorie content you need to worry about.

This link was provided at the Dr. Oz website (www.realage.com):

"...A study at Glasgow University measured levels of antioxidants -- thought to have a protective effect against cancer -- in a range of popular juice drinks. Purple concord grape juice came out on top, with the highest levels and range of antioxidants. Incidentally, this juice has the same level of these compounds as Beaujolais red wine.

It's recommended that we add a glass of grape juice to our daily diet and count it as one of our five daily fruits and vegetables...." www.thecancerblog.com (http://www.thecancerblog.com/2007/03/17/thought-for-the-day-how-about-a-purple-pick-me-up/)

I think it's safe to say that if concord grape juice has the same level of antioxidant compounds as red wine, then drinking 1 cup of one will have the same benefit as drinking 1 cup of the other.

The teacher
07-15-2008, 09:11 AM
How is it? If you can drink surely you can do it at anytime? In fact, if the whole church is "stong" then the pastor can have a bottle in the pulpit!

Sex between a husband and wife is biblically acceptable, and in fact encouraged. However, it is not condoned in the pulpit or during a corporate worship setting.

The same discernment should be used against your blanket statement above. If one cannot follow Biblical admonitions of appropriate behavior, then one should abstain altogether, whether it be wine, sex or otherwise.

God bless.

MissBrattified
07-15-2008, 09:13 AM
"...The authors of the Mediterranean Diet Pyramid recommend moderate consumption of wine. The American Heart Association recommends drinking in moderation. Most Mediterranean people drink with their meals. Consuming an alcoholic beverage in moderation means drinking no more than one glass of beer, wine or a cocktail a day for a woman and two for a man. This may reduce heart attack risk by raising HDL levels somewhat and by inhibiting blood clotting, however, alcohol is addictive and can lead to destructive behavior. Over-consumption can cause high blood pressure and weakening of the heart muscle. Studies suggest drinking grape juice can have the same beneficial effect as drinking wine. OPC's (Oligomeric Proantho Cyannidins) are located in the skin and seeds of grapes and are powerful free radical quenchers. If you do drink, do so in moderation. If you don't drink, don't start. Drinking purple grape juice may be a healthier alternative for some...." www.womensheart.org (http://www.womensheart.org/content/Nutrition/mediterranean.asp)

MissBrattified
07-15-2008, 09:16 AM
"There is evidence that drinking red wine may reduce your risk of heart disease. This benefit is most likely due to a substance called resveratrol found in the skin and seeds of grapes — especially dark red and purple grapes. Resveratrol is also found in grape juice — especially juice made from the dark purple Concord grapes.

Recent studies have suggested that red and purple grape juices may provide the same heart-healthy benefits of red wine, including:

* Reducing the risk of blood clots
* Reducing low-density lipoprotein (LDL, or "bad") cholesterol
* Preventing damage to blood vessels in your heart
* Helping maintain a healthy blood pressure

Both red wine and grape juice also contain antioxidants called flavonoids, which have been shown to increase your high-density lipoprotein (HDL, or "good") cholesterol and lower your risk of clogged arteries (atherosclerosis), and may help lower blood pressure."


www.mayoclinic.com (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/food-and-nutrition/AN00576)

Ferd
07-15-2008, 09:16 AM
Unsweetened grape juice has about 1/3 the calories as sweet wine. It's also lower in sodium and higher in potassium. I'm not sure what the actual sugar content is in either, but if something has less calories, then you are simply drinking LESS CALORIES. LOL!!!!! Unless you are a diabetic, the sugar content is irrelevant. It's the calorie content you need to worry about.

This link was provided at the Dr. Oz website (www.realage.com):

"...A study at Glasgow University measured levels of antioxidants -- thought to have a protective effect against cancer -- in a range of popular juice drinks. Purple concord grape juice came out on top, with the highest levels and range of antioxidants. Incidentally, this juice has the same level of these compounds as Beaujolais red wine.

It's recommended that we add a glass of grape juice to our daily diet and count it as one of our five daily fruits and vegetables...." www.thecancerblog.com (http://www.thecancerblog.com/2007/03/17/thought-for-the-day-how-about-a-purple-pick-me-up/)

I think it's safe to say that if concord grape juice has the same level of antioxidant compounds as red wine, then drinking 1 cup of one will have the same benefit as drinking 1 cup of the other.

interesting.

MissBrattified
07-15-2008, 09:17 AM
interesting. Cancer fighting properties are the same but what about heart health?

some have suggested red wine will aid heart health. is the same true for grape juice?

See post #121.

Ferd
07-15-2008, 09:21 AM
also from the mayclinic.com

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcohol/SC00024

Ferd
07-15-2008, 09:21 AM
See post #121.

got that and edited my post. thanks. good information.

MissBrattified
07-15-2008, 09:24 AM
also from the mayclinic.com

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcohol/SC00024

Excellent article.

So far, everything I've read has stated that wine has health benefits (in moderation only), but grape juice has the same benefits without the risks.

Also, the calorie content is lower in unsweetened grape juice, (or about the same, depending on what wine you're comparing it to), so weight gain shouldn't be a concern anymore than it would be with drinking wine.

The problem is, though, many people buy juice "drinks" or juice cocktails, and those, of course, DO have added sugar and thus more calories. Judicious grocery shopping is the key--not choosing wine over juice. :)

Aquila
07-15-2008, 09:26 AM
Im interested in this comment from your doctor. Is there some kind of documentation that points to this?

All I know is what she told me. I have looked at the sugars in most grape juices while shopping and they are comparable to pop.

MissBrattified
07-15-2008, 09:31 AM
All I know is what she told me. I have looked at the sugars in most grape juices while shopping and they are comparable to pop.

Check into unsweetened grape juice, and compare it to the caloric content of your wine.

Btw, wine also has about the same caloric content as pop.

Ferd
07-15-2008, 09:31 AM
I will be honest here, I have heard both what Auquila and MrsBratt have posted.

Now having the backing of the Mayo Clinic gives some heft to that argument, but the French paradox remains in my mind.

The French Paradox is that the French eat a high calorie, high fat, high cholesterol diet and have less obesity, less heart disease and less cancer than Americans.

the main difference is consumption of wine.

PS, my spell check makes MrsBrat come out Muskrat! LOL!

MissBrattified
07-15-2008, 09:34 AM
I will be honest here, I have heard both what Auquila and MrsBratt have posted.

Now having the backing of the Mayo Clinic gives some heft to that argument, but the French paradox remains in my mind.

The French Paradox is that the French eat a high calorie, high fat, high cholesterol diet and have less obesity, less heart disease and less cancer than Americans.

the main difference is consumption of wine.

I agree, there may be some merit to the fermentation process making a difference--however, it also can be an overall approach of moderation, which applies to both the wine and the food--an approach which the United States is sorely lacking.

PS, my spell check makes MrsBrat come out Muskrat! LOL!

:angelsad

tamor
07-15-2008, 09:35 AM
I will be honest here, I have heard both what Auquila and MrsBratt have posted.

Now having the backing of the Mayo Clinic gives some heft to that argument, but the French paradox remains in my mind.

The French Paradox is that the French eat a high calorie, high fat, high cholesterol diet and have less obesity, less heart disease and less cancer than Americans.

the main difference is consumption of wine.

PS, my spell check makes MrsBrat come out Muskrat! LOL!

Great! Now we have Muskrat and Super Chicken!! :ursofunny:ursofunny

Baron1710
07-15-2008, 09:36 AM
I agree, there may be some merit to the fermentation process making a difference--however, it also can be an overall approach of moderation, which applies to both the wine and the food--an approach which the United States is sorely lacking.



:angelsad

The French usually drink in moderation...right.

tamor
07-15-2008, 09:39 AM
I agree, there may be some merit to the fermentation process making a difference--however, it also can be an overall approach of moderation, which applies to both the wine and the food--an approach which the United States is sorely lacking.



Exactly!

MissBrattified
07-15-2008, 09:39 AM
The French usually drink in moderation...right.

Yikes! Look at this take on the "French Paradox":

"...The French drink one-and-a-half times more per capita than Americans and their death rate from liver cirrhosis is more than one-and-a-half times greater than that in the United States. According to WHO, France has the sixth highest adult per capita alcohol consumption in the world. (The U.S. ranks 32nd.) Alcohol may be involved in nearly half of the deaths from road accidents, half of all homicides, and one-quarter of suicides, according to the French equivalent of the U.S. Institutes of Health. And while coronary heart disease may be less pervasive in that country of 60 million people than in many others, it is still the number one cause of death...."

Rest of the Article (http://www.marininstitute.org/alcohol_policy/french_drinking.htm)

Ferd
07-15-2008, 09:42 AM
Great! Now we have Muskrat and Super Chicken!! :ursofunny:ursofunny

Watch it! LOL!

tamor
07-15-2008, 09:43 AM
Watch it! LOL!

Sounds like a great movie title!! :ursofunny:ursofunny

Ferd
07-15-2008, 09:44 AM
Yikes! Look at this take on the "French Paradox":

"...The French drink one-and-a-half times more per capita than Americans and their death rate from liver cirrhosis is more than one-and-a-half times greater than that in the United States. According to WHO, France has the sixth highest adult per capita alcohol consumption in the world. (The U.S. ranks 32nd.) Alcohol may be involved in nearly half of the deaths from road accidents, half of all homicides, and one-quarter of suicides, according to the French equivalent of the U.S. Institutes of Health. And while coronary heart disease may be less pervasive in that country of 60 million people than in many others, it is still the number one cause of death...."

Rest of the Article (http://www.marininstitute.org/alcohol_policy/french_drinking.htm)

Interesting. I certainly am not condoning sinning (which would be any time a person gets drunk for sure).

and the french clearly have higher levels of these, but they also have a longer life expectancy.

LUKE2447
07-15-2008, 09:45 AM
My doctor advised against grape juices. They are EXTREMELY high in sugar and to gain the antioxidant benefit of wine from grape juice would require drinking nearly 5 glasses in one sitting. My doctor said it would cause me to gain weight and she also said, "And then you'd also be confronted with sugar issues." Compare grape juices with soda pop...you might as well load up on pop.

Wine in moderation is good for you. Overall, most alcohol in moderation can even moderate cholestoral. My weight, blood pressure, and numbers were real bad. I lost the weight by changing diet. This also relieved me of my blood pressure issues. But my numbers were still really bad. She told me I could drink wine and get plenty of omega-3s to help this. Guess what, after 4 months of this my numbers were back in line where they should be. I'm still a little overweight, but she said other than that I'm now in very good health.

It's not for everyone. But I'm doing far better now. No meds, pills, or prescriptions. Just some holistic health advice based on ancient practices of health and celebrating life.

What you did is fine. Also pure grape juice in nowhere near the same a soda. Don't believe that trash for a second. Today's doctors compare apples with rocks half the time. Yes your candy style grape juice for the most part is decent but not great. I am talking fresh juice and any doctor that would compare that to soda for anything should.... well I will be nice. Least to say I am not a fan of most doctors as they are protocol idiots and don't study anything outside of "pharm america"!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Diet is the key to health, period with light exercise and stretching. Health 20 years from now starts today.

Baron1710
07-15-2008, 09:49 AM
Yikes! Look at this take on the "French Paradox":

"...The French drink one-and-a-half times more per capita than Americans and their death rate from liver cirrhosis is more than one-and-a-half times greater than that in the United States. According to WHO, France has the sixth highest adult per capita alcohol consumption in the world. (The U.S. ranks 32nd.) Alcohol may be involved in nearly half of the deaths from road accidents, half of all homicides, and one-quarter of suicides, according to the French equivalent of the U.S. Institutes of Health. And while coronary heart disease may be less pervasive in that country of 60 million people than in many others, it is still the number one cause of death...."

Rest of the Article (http://www.marininstitute.org/alcohol_policy/french_drinking.htm)

Don't forget the Marin Institute is very anti-alcohol so there is a bit of bias here, and they want to force their views on people through increased legislation and regulations.

Baron1710
07-15-2008, 09:50 AM
Mission

The Marin Institute fights to protect the public from the impact of the alcohol industry’s negative practices. We monitor and expose the alcohol industry’s harmful actions related to products, promotions and social influence, and support communities in their efforts to reject these damaging activities.

http://www.marininstitute.org/about_us/mission.htm

ReformedDave
07-15-2008, 09:52 AM
I have an OBGYN friend who tells his patients to limit their intake of fruit juice. Very high sugar and calories. He tells them to eat the fruit instead of drink it.

MissBrattified
07-15-2008, 09:52 AM
Mission

The Marin Institute fights to protect the public from the impact of the alcohol industry’s negative practices. We monitor and expose the alcohol industry’s harmful actions related to products, promotions and social influence, and support communities in their efforts to reject these damaging activities.

http://www.marininstitute.org/about_us/mission.htm

Oh, okay, I didn't know that. Thanks for the perspective.

MissBrattified
07-15-2008, 09:54 AM
I have an OBGYN friend who tells his patients to limit their intake of fruit juice. Very high sugar and calories. He tells them to eat the fruit instead of drink it.

Probably very good advice!

My favorite juice is carrot--but only made fresh. The canned stuff is NASTY!!!! It takes quite a few carrots to make a glass of juice.

Aquila
07-15-2008, 09:54 AM
Unsweetened grape juice has about 1/3 the calories as sweet wine. It's also lower in sodium and higher in potassium. I'm not sure what the actual sugar content is in either, but if something has less calories, then you are simply drinking LESS CALORIES. LOL!!!!! Unless you are a diabetic, the sugar content is irrelevant. It's the calorie content you need to worry about.

I have diabetes in my family and part of my diet was focused on significantly reducing sugars. Also point of interest would be the exploding number of people becoming diagnosed with diabetes. My diet was not so much focused on calories as it was reducing sugars and foods high on the glycemic index.

This link was provided at the Dr. Oz website (www.realage.com):

"...A study at Glasgow University measured levels of antioxidants -- thought to have a protective effect against cancer -- in a range of popular juice drinks. Purple concord grape juice came out on top, with the highest levels and range of antioxidants. Incidentally, this juice has the same level of these compounds as Beaujolais red wine.

It's recommended that we add a glass of grape juice to our daily diet and count it as one of our five daily fruits and vegetables...." www.thecancerblog.com (http://www.thecancerblog.com/2007/03/17/thought-for-the-day-how-about-a-purple-pick-me-up/)

I think it's safe to say that if concord grape juice has the same level of antioxidant compounds as red wine, then drinking 1 cup of one will have the same benefit as drinking 1 cup of the other.

"...The authors of the Mediterranean Diet Pyramid recommend moderate consumption of wine. The American Heart Association recommends drinking in moderation. Most Mediterranean people drink with their meals. Consuming an alcoholic beverage in moderation means drinking no more than one glass of beer, wine or a cocktail a day for a woman and two for a man. This may reduce heart attack risk by raising HDL levels somewhat and by inhibiting blood clotting, however, alcohol is addictive and can lead to destructive behavior. Over-consumption can cause high blood pressure and weakening of the heart muscle. Studies suggest drinking grape juice can have the same beneficial effect as drinking wine. OPC's (Oligomeric Proantho Cyannidins) are located in the skin and seeds of grapes and are powerful free radical quenchers. If you do drink, do so in moderation. If you don't drink, don't start. Drinking purple grape juice may be a healthier alternative for some...." www.womensheart.org (http://www.womensheart.org/content/Nutrition/mediterranean.asp)

Excellent article.

So far, everything I've read has stated that wine has health benefits (in moderation only), but grape juice has the same benefits without the risks.

Also, the calorie content is lower in unsweetened grape juice, (or about the same, depending on what wine you're comparing it to), so weight gain shouldn't be a concern anymore than it would be with drinking wine.

The problem is, though, many people buy juice "drinks" or juice cocktails, and those, of course, DO have added sugar and thus more calories. Judicious grocery shopping is the key--not choosing wine over juice. :)

I don’t know. There’s a study showing anything and everything. What I do know is that I specifically asked my doctor about grape juices and she advised that I stay away from them because of the sugars and stated that they don’t have the same benefits as red wine. I’ve read about the merits of concentrated organic grape juices comparable to wine. However, a glass of Welch’s, while it contains antioxidants, isn’t on par with a glass of wine…but I’m sure somewhere Welch’s has paid to produce studies that shows that it does. lol

Either way, we’re discussing the biblical merits of drinking “a little wine” for health reasons. In ancient times they didn’t have pasteurized grape juices and although many point out they had a way to preserve freshly pressed wine, it wasn’t primarily to drink as juice, it was to preserve the pressed wine for the making of wine or “honey”, a dried compound added to food and water. I do agree, if grape juice provides the same benefits as wine, surely if one wishes to avoid alcohol they would be served well by having some grape juice. However, biblically speaking, there is no absolute prohibition from wine in and of itself.

Home Work Assignment:
Compare sugars contained in a comparable sized bottle of Welch’s to a bottle of Pepsi. Compare findings to a glass of Fetzer Merlot.

Psalm 104
{104:14} He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the
service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;
{104:15} And wine [that] maketh glad the heart of man, [and] oil to
make [his] face to shine, and bread [which] strengtheneth man’s
heart.

Deuteronomy 14:23-27
{14:23} And thou shalt eat before the LORD
thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his
name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine
oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that
thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
{14:24} And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art
not able to carry it; [or] if the place be too far from thee,
which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name
there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: {14:25}
Then shalt thou turn [it] into money, and bind up the money
in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD
thy God shall choose: {14:26} And thou shalt bestow that
money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for
sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy
soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy
God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

Isaiah 25:6
{25:6} And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts
make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines
on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees
well refined.

Wine is a blessing, a gift to man. However, we are sternly warned that it is not to be abused. My health benefited from it.

MissBrattified
07-15-2008, 09:55 AM
Wine is a blessing, a gift to man. However, we are continually warned that it is not to be abused.

I agree, logically. However, my father was a mean drunk before he was saved, so its difficult for me to call wine a blessing. I don't call it sin, and I personally prefer to take wine for communion, but at the same time, in our home, drinking is strongly discouraged.

Ferd
07-15-2008, 09:56 AM
See, this is what Im talking about. it is all just as clear as mud!

ReformedDave
07-15-2008, 09:57 AM
I agree, logically. However, my father was a mean drunk before he was saved, so its difficult for me to call wine a blessing. I don't call it sin, and I personally prefer to take wine for communion, but at the same time, in our home, drinking is strongly discouraged.

It's a personal choice and under your circumstances I would probably do the same.

MissBrattified
07-15-2008, 09:57 AM
See, this is what Im talking about. it is all just as clear as mud!

LOL!!!! "All around the mulberry bush...."

Ferd
07-15-2008, 09:58 AM
LOL!!!! "All around the mulberry bush...."

hey, at least this has been a reasonable conversation and not a shouting match! LOL!

tamor
07-15-2008, 10:00 AM
I have an OBGYN friend who tells his patients to limit their intake of fruit juice. Very high sugar and calories. He tells them to eat the fruit instead of drink it.

Fruit itself is very high in sugar content also.

ReformedDave
07-15-2008, 10:00 AM
See, this is what Im talking about. it is all just as clear as mud!

To me it's obvious that Scripture allows a limited use of alcohol with restrictions as it does on other things. I also understand the personal choice to completely abstain. I would never consciously flaunt my liberty on this issue.

DividedThigh
07-15-2008, 10:00 AM
i am sure there is medicinal use of wine, i am glad it worked out for you aquila, but i will not and have not drunk alcohol, lol, i had to laugh my dr told me the same thing about grape juice when i had surgery a month ago to much sugar, lol

Aquila
07-15-2008, 10:00 AM
Amen. It's nothing to shout over really. Everyone here appears to be responsible God loving saints of God.

tamor
07-15-2008, 10:00 AM
hey, at least this has been a reasonable conversation and not a shouting match! LOL!

Just wait. The right folks aren't here yet! :ursofunny

Aquila
07-15-2008, 10:32 AM
I agree, logically. However, my father was a mean drunk before he was saved, so its difficult for me to call wine a blessing. I don't call it sin, and I personally prefer to take wine for communion, but at the same time, in our home, drinking is strongly discouraged.

I know. My dad was a very mean drunk too sis. I believe he is responsible for what he has done; the alcohol was a blessing he abused.

MikeinAR
07-15-2008, 11:44 AM
Why is it that the church wants to treat everyone like they are children. Not teaching folks to make godly decisions but rather go to the pastor for a list of what we can do, can't do, what to watch and what not to watch. Scripture teaches that one who is in Christ should have self control. Several people have made fun of the fact that people can drink and be self controlled. Is that not what Jesus did? Those who cannot control themselves should not condemn those who live a Christ like life and enjoy the very same things that he did.

Amen! I know a couple of pastors like this and some of their flock are always trying to push the limits and go right up to the line set for them by their Pastor. It drives the Pastor crazy and he's always putting out fires to keep them all in line like a grade school class.

A simple explanation of allowing Christ to be Lord over every decision and every aspect of their life would be much more effective. If people can't control themselves and allow him to be Lord concerning alcohol, they won't be able to in the relationships in their life, the things they watch, listen to and read, the things they choose to eat, or exercising and taking care of their physical bodies. Being renewed in our minds daily and allowing His spirit to lead and guide our lives intricately will take care of most of these issues.

I think your on the exact right track here Baron.

Mrs. LPW
07-15-2008, 12:29 PM
Scripturally, a drink of wine is not sinful, BUT I think there are plenty of good practical reasons to abstain from drinking completely, AND there are LOTS of scriptures that indicate a lack of wisdom in drinking. Add to that a culture of excess, and a history of alcoholism in my family, and that's enough to advise my children against drinking whatsoever.

Miss Bratty with another succinct and wise post.

harleypreacher
07-15-2008, 12:30 PM
How about marijuana for medical use? I have a young man in my church that asks me this question the other day. His doctor wants to prescribe it to him because of some eye problems that he is having. It is in the form of a pill, so I just told him don’t come to church laughing. I didn’t have the answer, but I do know people in the church that are hooked on prescription drugs, and they think its ok. How would some of the pastors on here answer the question about taking a prescription drug that includes marijuana?

A little wine for the stomach and little pot for the healing of the eyes, we could have some good church on Sunday.

Mrs. LPW
07-15-2008, 12:33 PM
I have an OBGYN friend who tells his patients to limit their intake of fruit juice. Very high sugar and calories. He tells them to eat the fruit instead of drink it.

My mother's dietician suggests the same... eat that fruit!

Mrs. LPW
07-15-2008, 12:35 PM
Probably very good advice!

My favorite juice is carrot--but only made fresh. The canned stuff is NASTY!!!! It takes quite a few carrots to make a glass of juice.

That brings back some horrible memories from about a year ago. Someone told my husband about all the carrot juice they were drinking, how good it was for them. He jumped on the bandwagon and bought a juicer. He would make a huge pile of it and leave it in the fridge... however... occasionally he wouldn't clean out the juicer after making his carrot juice and... OHHHHHHHHHh... I can't talk about it....

So glad the Lord answered prayer and he quit making it.

ReformedDave
07-15-2008, 01:31 PM
How about marijuana for medical use? I have a young man in my church that asks me this question the other day. His doctor wants to prescribe it to him because of some eye problems that he is having. It is in the form of a pill, so I just told him don’t come to church laughing. I didn’t have the answer, but I do know people in the church that are hooked on prescription drugs, and they think its ok. How would some of the pastors on here answer the question about taking a prescription drug that includes marijuana?

A little wine for the stomach and little pot for the healing of the eyes, we could have some good church on Sunday.

If that is the treatment for a serious eye condition I would have no problem with it. However I would use GREAT wisdom and keep my mouth closed about it.

There are many drugs that have a mind altering effect.

Ferd
07-15-2008, 01:42 PM
How about marijuana for medical use? I have a young man in my church that asks me this question the other day. His doctor wants to prescribe it to him because of some eye problems that he is having. It is in the form of a pill, so I just told him don’t come to church laughing. I didn’t have the answer, but I do know people in the church that are hooked on prescription drugs, and they think its ok. How would some of the pastors on here answer the question about taking a prescription drug that includes marijuana?

A little wine for the stomach and little pot for the healing of the eyes, we could have some good church on Sunday.

In pill form it is legal THC i suspect and it is a treatment for Glaucoma. I dont know the psycotropic affect.

however, there is very clear evidence that people being treated for cancer benifit from Marijuana in ways that no other drug can help.

I think it is stupid to prevent people who are sick to the point of death from having access to a clearly proven medicine. stupid and mean.

Marijuana is less addictive than any pain killer on the market, or beer for that matter.

It should not be legal for recreational purpose, and even if it were, it would be an out rite sin for anyone to use it. But within the confines of medical treatement for pain and symptoms related to chemo therapy like loss of appitite, it is a crime not to allow people to use Marijuana.


As for the example you mention, remember that vicoden is really synthetic opium. so a pill form of THC that helps eye problems (it really does), is no different than someone taking vicoden for extreme pain. and it is not nearly as addictive as vicoden.

ReformedDave
07-15-2008, 02:13 PM
In pill form it is legal THC i suspect and it is a treatment for Glaucoma. I dont know the psycotropic affect.

however, there is very clear evidence that people being treated for cancer benifit from Marijuana in ways that no other drug can help.

I think it is stupid to prevent people who are sick to the point of death from having access to a clearly proven medicine. stupid and mean.

Marijuana is less addictive than any pain killer on the market, or beer for that matter.

It should not be legal for recreational purpose, and even if it were, it would be an out rite sin for anyone to use it. But within the confines of medical treatement for pain and symptoms related to chemo therapy like loss of appitite, it is a crime not to allow people to use Marijuana.


As for the example you mention, remember that vicoden is really synthetic opium. so a pill form of THC that helps eye problems (it really does), is no different than someone taking vicoden for extreme pain. and it is not nearly as addictive as vicoden.


The same flower makes morphine and heroin. Good post.

Aquila
07-15-2008, 04:04 PM
How about marijuana for medical use? I have a young man in my church that asks me this question the other day. His doctor wants to prescribe it to him because of some eye problems that he is having. It is in the form of a pill, so I just told him don’t come to church laughing. I didn’t have the answer, but I do know people in the church that are hooked on prescription drugs, and they think its ok. How would some of the pastors on here answer the question about taking a prescription drug that includes marijuana?

A little wine for the stomach and little pot for the healing of the eyes, we could have some good church on Sunday.

God made marijuana. I believe that there may be some medicinal value to it. The issue is it's abuse, not perscribed and legal use among those with an illness that may benefit from it's use. For example, morphine. Would anyone deny morphine to a person suffering from extreme pain? No. But we'd all reject the idea of just anyone using morphine illegally.

It's not the substance at issue...it's the abuse of the substance.

Aquila
07-15-2008, 04:06 PM
My mother's dietician suggests the same... eat that fruit!

Most fruit juices are just as bad as soda pop. But when one eats actual fruit they also take in the fiber making it a little better for overall health.

Aquila
07-15-2008, 04:08 PM
It's not the substance folks...it's the abuse of the substance. And that responsibility lays entirely at the feet of the individual.

Rico
07-15-2008, 04:13 PM
I'd have to double check to be sure, but the poppy plant and marijuana plant are not in the same family. Nor does their use provide the same effects. Stuff like heroin and opium are much stronger than marijuana.

chrisfromCLC
07-15-2008, 07:51 PM
How about marijuana for medical use? I have a young man in my church that asks me this question the other day. His doctor wants to prescribe it to him because of some eye problems that he is having. It is in the form of a pill, so I just told him don’t come to church laughing. I didn’t have the answer, but I do know people in the church that are hooked on prescription drugs, and they think its ok. How would some of the pastors on here answer the question about taking a prescription drug that includes marijuana?

A little wine for the stomach and little pot for the healing of the eyes, we could have some good church on Sunday.

the pill form of marijuana is called Marinol. it is a dual use drug. used in patients after chemotherapy to increase appetite and also used for pain (not just cancer patients). why would people in the church say it's ok to use oxycodone (active in Percocet, Tylox, Oxycontin, etc....) but not marijuana?
Like someone already said, the problem is not the substance, but the abuse of that substance.

jaxfam6
07-15-2008, 11:49 PM
Sex between a husband and wife is biblically acceptable, and in fact encouraged. However, it is not condoned in the pulpit or during a corporate worship setting.
The same discernment should be used against your blanket statement above. If one cannot follow Biblical admonitions of appropriate behavior, then one should abstain altogether, whether it be wine, sex or otherwise.

God bless.


That must be why we are getting really funny looks during church


:ursofunny:ursofunny

stmatthew
07-15-2008, 11:56 PM
What ever happened to "the Prayer of faith"? Or "by whose stripes ye were healed"?

Aquila
07-16-2008, 05:34 AM
What ever happened to "the Prayer of faith"? Or "by whose stripes ye were healed"?

I still believe in it. I just believe we aren't entitled to miracles...that's why they are...miracles. They are few and normally have a greater purpose than the healing itself.

tamor
07-16-2008, 06:27 AM
That must be why we are getting really funny looks during church


:ursofunny:ursofunny

:aaa:aaa

MissBrattified
07-16-2008, 06:37 AM
What ever happened to "the Prayer of faith"? Or "by whose stripes ye were healed"?

Good questions. So why did Paul recommend a "little wine for your stomach's sake, and thine often infirmities?" Surely Paul had faith in God for healing?

freeatlast
07-16-2008, 06:38 AM
What ever happened to "the Prayer of faith"? Or "by whose stripes ye were healed"?

I assume Paul prayed for Timothy's condition (the prayer of faith)

BUT then he told Timothy to take a little wine for his infirmity.

Treating a problem medicinally is NOT opposed to scripture.

The teacher
07-16-2008, 07:18 AM
That must be why we are getting really funny looks during church


:ursofunny:ursofunny
I sure hope not! :eek:



:lol

rgcraig
07-16-2008, 07:28 AM
What ever happened to "the Prayer of faith"? Or "by whose stripes ye were healed"?

Matt, I completely understand what you are saying, but I dare say you would deny your child or wife medicine if they needed it.

We've abused about everything we can here on earth instead of trusting God (even food).

jaxfam6
07-16-2008, 11:14 PM
:aaa:aaa

Whats the matter? see something you didn't like?


=)

jaxfam6
07-16-2008, 11:15 PM
Matt, I completely understand what you are saying, but I dare say you would deny your child or wife medicine if they needed it.

We've abused about everything we can here on earth instead of trusting God (even food).

Amen

tamor
07-17-2008, 07:01 AM
Whats the matter? see something you didn't like?


=)

:ursofunny