The Pro's and Con's of the Apostolic Church

[stmatthew]

Thought maybe we could have some edifying discussion here, and maybe brainstorm some answers to better the body of Christ.



Part 1


What do you see as positives of the Apostolic church in general??

What do you think we can do to make it even better??



Part 2

What do you see as negatives of the Apostolic church in general??

What do you think we can do to turn around these negatives and improve it??

[stmatthew]

:bump......here is a serious thread from a goofball poster.






:feedback

[Pressing-On]

Thought maybe we could have some edifying discussion here, and maybe brainstorm some answers to better the body of Christ.



Part 1


What do you see as positives of the Apostolic church in general??
The worship and anointed preaching.

What do you think we can do to make it even better??
No other answer, IMO, than sincere prayer.



Part 2

What do you see as negatives of the Apostolic church in general??
I don't see the prayer rooms being as important as they were in times past. Some of the music promotes the talent and not vertical worship.

What do you think we can do to turn around these negatives and improve it??

Again, no other answer, IMO, than sincere prayer. We get no where if we don't pray. We can't be holy, right, directed, humble or forgiving if we don't have sincere prayer in our lives. Prayer moves mountains and changes us from the inside out.

[Jack Shephard]

This could take all day...

Pro's-in general most of the churches do well with community support inside our doors and helping the needs of the saints. Decent teaching on faith. Many great preachers and leaders.

Con#1-We can do better at teaching mid-teens and older better about how to live as a married person. Teach better control on finances, raising kids, sexual realations, etc. We teach them with words and actions a certain way. We spend all our money and have more month at the end of the money and teach how sinful sex is and hardly ever teach about how they should raise kids other than to say 'raise them in the church.' We teach them these things all their lives and then in 3 months of marriage counseling we try to reteach them all these things and we wonder why more than half our marriages fail.

Con#2-too many elitists. 'my way or the highway' is the phrase that comes to mind.

Con#3-we have lost focus on fellowship and replaced it with focus on running an organization or a business. NOT GOOD.

Con#4-we call ourselves the church, but we don't show all the characteristics of 'the church'. We are part of the body of Christ we are not 'the' body of Christ. While there are some churches that have great things for the community like POA and others, the majority of us could not use community in the name of our churches cause we don't even touch the community. We would be the classic example of bait and switch. The thing is we have a niche,the power of the HG. It is available to everyone, but we claim we have it all. We say we are right at the expense of damning others. Most of our members have no real clue what grace and mercy are. Ask them to explain grace and mercy you'd be shocked at the answers, mostlikely. We teach it to sinners to help 'reach' them, but fail to practice what we preach.

Just a few thoughts..

[Cindy]

This could take all day...

Pro's-in general most of the churches do well with community support inside our doors and helping the needs of the saints. Decent teaching on faith. Many great preachers and leaders.

Con#1-We can do better at teaching mid-teens and older better about how to live as a married person. Teach better control on finances, raising kids, sexual realations, etc. We teach them with words and actions a certain way. We spend all our money and have more month at the end of the money and teach how sinful sex is and hardly ever teach about how they should raise kids other than to say 'raise them in the church.' We teach them these things all their lives and then in 3 months of marriage counseling we try to reteach them all these things and we wonder why more than half our marriages fail.

Con#2-too many elitists. 'my way or the highway' is the phrase that comes to mind.

Con#3-we have lost focus on fellowship and replaced it with focus on running an organization or a business. NOT GOOD.

Con#4-we call ourselves the church, but we don't show all the characteristics of 'the church'. We are part of the body of Christ we are not 'the' body of Christ. While there are some churches that have great things for the community like POA and others, the majority of us could not use community in the name of our churches cause we don't even touch the community. We would be the classic example of bait and switch. The thing is we have a niche,the power of the HG. It is available to everyone, but we claim we have it all. We say we are right at the expense of damning others. Most of our members have no real clue what grace and mercy are. Ask them to explain grace and mercy you'd be shocked at the answers, mostlikely. We teach it to sinners to help 'reach' them, but fail to practice what we preach.

Just a few thoughts..

Your Con #1 JT. Why is any of that the church's job and not the parents?

[Praxeas]

Thought maybe we could have some edifying discussion here, and maybe brainstorm some answers to better the body of Christ.



Part 1


What do you see as positives of the Apostolic church in general??

What do you think we can do to make it even better??



Part 2

What do you see as negatives of the Apostolic church in general??

What do you think we can do to turn around these negatives and improve it??
Oh...I thought Pros was a new catagory of like moderates conservatives...thought this was gonna be another pitched battle

[RandyWayne]

Thought maybe we could have some edifying discussion here, and maybe brainstorm some answers to better the body of Christ.



Part 1


What do you see as positives of the Apostolic church in general??

What do you think we can do to make it even better??



Part 2

What do you see as negatives of the Apostolic church in general??

What do you think we can do to turn around these negatives and improve it??

A big pro that I see is that I see a big increase in the church reaching out to the community to meet more basic needs such as local food pantries, crisis pregnancy centers, clothing donations, etc.....

I also see more and more apostolics reaching toward groups that they would have kept a 100 meter distance from in the past in the name of "holiness". Reaching out to groups such as homosexuals, the homeless, and even the occasional prostitute.

The BIG cons is that they are not doing more. There are still far too many who DO keep that 100 meter court-ordered distance from gays and prostitutes, all in the name of being 'separated from the world'. Jesus seemed to spend the bulk of His teaching telling US to care for the homeless, the beggars, the widows, and the rejects among us, yet hat seems to be the one lesson most often forgotten.
Every single Church needs to have a food pantry, even if all it has is a single can of cheap baked beans in it, that is open to anyone in need who has no where else to go. I'm also waiting to see apostolics embrace programs which give expecting mothers a place to go.

[theoldpaths]

God's church is all Pros and no Cons.

[RandyWayne]

God's church is all Pros and no Cons.

...in a perfect world. Which we don't live in, because we have people with their own thoughts, interpretations and personal goals.

[Michael The Disciple]

Pros?

They have the glorious revelation that Yeshua Messiah is the Eternal Father as well as the begotten Son. They are the only groups on Earth with very few exceptions that have testimonies about being saved that match/agree with the ones in the book of Acts.
They have in many cases exercised great patience in teaching these truths to a hostile religous system whether Trins or Arians.

Cons?

They feel because they are right on those issues they are automatically right on other foundation truths when they are not. They have followed the Protestants concering the second coming, resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

On secondary points they have rejected many thousands of sincere seekers of truth by teaching such foolishness as its sin for men to have a beard or women to trim their hair.

Theres hope for the modern Apostolic movement but the hour is getting late.

[Jack Shephard]

Your Con #1 JT. Why is any of that the church's job and not the parents?

Well the church should be backing up what the parents teach the kids at home. But often times the parents are trying to back up at home what the church teaches. It can make it difficult on the parents, at times, when the church is saying one thing as the 'voice of God' and the parents are trying to teach them differently. Example, when I was growing up all I and others heard in church about sex is how sinful it is. Abstain and it is damnable, etc. While this in true in the context of premarital sexual relations it is not true while done in marriage. My friends in my age group there were all taught this way. About 10 of us have strong marriages because our parents fought against the teaching that sex=sin and taught us that it is a God appointed thing. About 15 of my friends that were not taught like us have failed marriages or at the least very bad marriages do to these reasons.

I agree the parents are the best teachers of these things, but if the church were to take a proactive approach on these topics, money, sex, family life, etc. then it will make it easier, I believe, on the youth once they are married. The church spends a lifetime teaching kids and people how bad sex is and not teaching about money and how one should raise their kids. But, in 2-3 months of marriage counselling they church tries to reteach them and they have to try and relearn a lifetime of teaching. I think it would make it a MUCH easier transition from single life to married life if the church was proactive as opposed to reactive, because often the church is reactive. They try to stop the bleeding in pastor counsel 5 years into marriage and the damage is done. JMHO

[Cindy]

Well the church should be backing up what the parents teach the kids at home. But often times the parents are trying to back up at home what the church teaches. It can make it difficult on the parents, at times, when the church is saying one thing as the 'voice of God' and the parents are trying to teach them differently. Example, when I was growing up all I and others heard in church about sex is how sinful it is. Abstain and it is damnable, etc. While this in true in the context of premarital sexual relations it is not true while done in marriage. My friends in my age group there were all taught this way. About 10 of us have strong marriages because our parents fought against the teaching that sex=sin and taught us that it is a God appointed thing. About 15 of my friends that were not taught like us have failed marriages or at the least very bad marriages do to these reasons.

I agree the parents are the best teachers of these things, but if the church were to take a proactive approach on these topics, money, sex, family life, etc. then it will make it easier, I believe, on the youth once they are married. The church spends a lifetime teaching kids and people how bad sex is and not teaching about money and how one should raise their kids. But, in 2-3 months of marriage counselling they church tries to reteach them and they have to try and relearn a lifetime of teaching. I think it would make it a MUCH easier transition from single life to married life if the church was proactive as opposed to reactive, because often the church is reactive. They try to stop the bleeding in pastor counsel 5 years into marriage and the damage is done. JMHO

Do you think many times kids hear things from the pulpit they don't hear at home on these subjects, biblically I mean? The parents and the church should equip kids to live in this world, especially now.

[Jack Shephard]

Do you think many times kids hear things from the pulpit they don't hear at home on these subjects, biblically I mean? The parents and the church should equip kids to live in this world, especially now.

I think that it should go hand in hand, but from what I have experienced is that often times they don't. It is not limited to these topics either, but these are where the church should begin to focus on. This can really help to firm up marriges in our movement. A lot of mainstream non-denominal churches already do this. They are seeing good results. Some of them teach often on these topics.

[Nahum]

Pro:

I believe we interpret the Bible's core doctrines very well. We place proper emphasis on salvation and discipleship. Our services truly are "Spirit-filled."

Con:

We balk at taking away from the Word, but we are the world's worst at adding to it. We are not community-service oriented. We are kingdom builders, but not God's kingdom. We find new and unique ways of keeping people out instead of being the gatherers God called us to be.

[Carpenter]

God's church is all Pros and no Cons.

No conservatives? Wrong,

Are you saying that convicted felons who paid their debt to society are not welcome?

What do you mean no Cons?

:D

[Jack Shephard]

Thought maybe we could have some edifying discussion here, and maybe brainstorm some answers to better the body of Christ.



Part 1


What do you see as positives of the Apostolic church in general??

What do you think we can do to make it even better??



Part 2

What do you see as negatives of the Apostolic church in general??

What do you think we can do to turn around these negatives and improve it??


Here is the pitch!

Pro:

I believe we interpret the Bible's core doctrines very well. We place proper emphasis on salvation and discipleship. Our services truly are "Spirit-filled."

Con:

We balk at taking away from the Word, but we are the world's worst at adding to it. We are not community-service oriented. We are kingdom builders, but not God's kingdom. We find new and unique ways of keeping people out instead of being the gatherers God called us to be.

Here is a drive way back to centerfield. Warning track to the wall it's a home run!

[Jack Shephard]

Pastor P and others...

I think these questions beg to be asked. Do the Pro's out weigh the Con's? Do they balance each other out or does a bad Con out weight a good Pro?

What do you all think?

As for me I think that Con's far out weigh the Pro's. I am not saying there are more Con's which there could be, but I think that anything negative does greater damage to our name and our movement than the Pro's help push us forward. JMO

[Michael Phelps]

Pro:

I believe we interpret the Bible's core doctrines very well. We place proper emphasis on salvation and discipleship. Our services truly are "Spirit-filled."

Con:

We balk at taking away from the Word, but we are the world's worst at adding to it. We are not community-service oriented. We are kingdom builders, but not God's kingdom. We find new and unique ways of keeping people out instead of being the gatherers God called us to be.

Well said, PP.

[Ferd]

Pro
History.
However you cut it, you cant get where you are going unless you know where you've been.

the Apostolic church has a fantastic history that has given us something special in all the world.

Con
History.
What was it Satchel Page said? Don't look back, something might be gaining on you!

Its a good bit of advice. At times we tend to desire our history to be our present and our future. It is impossible. It also turns us from being productive and forward thinking to insular and insecure.


IMHO Apostolics are neck deep in a paradigm shift. We are no longer a movement but we are not yet a real denomination.... but we are headed there.

What we better be able to do, is make that transition without losing our identity and our doctrine.

[Ferd]

Also. PP. awesome post!

[Nahum]

Pastor P and others...

I think these questions beg to be asked. Do the Pro's out weigh the Con's? Do they balance each other out or does a bad Con out weight a good Pro?

What do you all think?

As for me I think that Con's far out weigh the Pro's. I am not saying there are more Con's which there could be, but I think that anything negative does greater damage to our name and our movement than the Pro's help push us forward. JMO

Wow, that's a lot of ground to cover.

In a nutshell, I don't think I, as a pastor, should be concerned about anything other than solid doctrinal teaching, Spirit-filled worship, and an incessant attempt to gather souls into God's kingdom.

I think the key word is balance.

[Jack Shephard]

Pro
History.
However you cut it, you cant get where you are going unless you know where you've been.

the Apostolic church has a fantastic history that has given us something special in all the world.

Con
History.
What was it Satchel Page said? Don't look back, something might be gaining on you!

Its a good bit of advice. At times we tend to desire our history to be our present and our future. It is impossible. It also turns us from being productive and forward thinking to insular and insecure.


IMHO Apostolics are neck deep in a paradigm shift. We are no longer a movement but we are not yet a real denomination.... but we are headed there.

What we better be able to do, is make that transition without losing our identity and our doctrine.

I think that the doctrine has become the identity in this movement. It seems to me that there has been a monument built out of a movement. A movement is just that a moving thing. I think that you are right on with part of your post that there is the desire to see the past be made present. I don't think it can happen like it is desired. The world is different and the movement is different. The God is doing great works in the world and I am affraid that we might become like Lots wife a dead pillar of salt cause we got caught looking back. I am also affraid that the spirit might pass us by cause it seems that God is moving in a way that He never has or at least it hasn't been noticed before. Again new things are happening and if the movement don't get on board with God we might be left behind. The ship might just be getting ready to sail and we might miss it.

[Ferd]

I think that the doctrine has become the identity in this movement. It seems to me that there has been a monument built out of a movement. A movement is just that a moving thing. I think that you are right on with part of your post that there is the desire to see the past be made present. I don't think it can happen like it is desired. The world is different and the movement is different. The God is doing great works in the world and I am affraid that we might become like Lots wife a dead pillar of salt cause we got caught looking back. I am also affraid that the spirit might pass us by cause it seems that God is moving in a way that He never has or at least it hasn't been noticed before. Again new things are happening and if the movement don't get on board with God we might be left behind. The ship might just be getting ready to sail and we might miss it.

JT, the doctrine cannot change regardless of the times. How we approach other issues however had better be in play.

as much as some of us seek to make the past our present, others want wholesale abandomnet of our history. As much as the first is wrong, the second is just as wrong if not far worse.

There will never be a day when I think Apostolics out to change the doctrines that made us what we are. THAT his herasy of the highest order.

[StillStanding]

Pro:

I believe we interpret the Bible's core doctrines very well. We place proper emphasis on salvation and discipleship. Our services truly are "Spirit-filled."

Con:

We balk at taking away from the Word, but we are the world's worst at adding to it. We are not community-service oriented. We are kingdom builders, but not God's kingdom. We find new and unique ways of keeping people out instead of being the gatherers God called us to be.

Very good post! :thumbsup

PRO:

1. Exuberant praise and worship
2. Good music (for the most part!)
3. As a general rule, they seem to take their religion seriously.
4. Spirit filled and spirit led services
5. Correctly baptize and understand godhead (for the most part)

CON:
1. Following "standards" cause them to stick out and seem cultist to non-Apostolics.
2. Seem to be judgmental of others.
3. Seem to be cliquish and not mix well with the outsiders.
4. Sometimes will try to stir emotions by yelling or screaming, and call it "anointing"
5. Tendency to believe they are more spiritual and on a higher plane than anyone else.

[Jack Shephard]

JT, the doctrine cannot change regardless of the times. How we approach other issues however had better be in play.

as much as some of us seek to make the past our present, others want wholesale abandomnet of our history. As much as the first is wrong, the second is just as wrong if not far worse.

There will never be a day when I think Apostolics out to change the doctrines that made us what we are. THAT his herasy of the highest order.

I was not talking about changing doctrine at all. I am talking about changing order within the movement and methods that are out dated. I do not think for a minute that it would ever benefit the movement to drop doctrine. It would help to drop the teachings that we add to the Bible that we could do. Many of those have been made doctrine when they are not doctrine but tradtions. The point I was trying to make and seems that I did not convey is that this movement needs to become a fellowship again and less of an organization or business. That is what I was meaning. Sorry for confusion.

[Jack Shephard]

Wow, that's a lot of ground to cover.

In a nutshell, I don't think I, as a pastor, should be concerned about anything other than solid doctrinal teaching, Spirit-filled worship, and an incessant attempt to gather souls into God's kingdom.
I think the key word is balance.

Would you do this at the expense of creating weak men and women that have no real knowledge of how to treat one another once they are married and such? There are many in our churches that grew up in abusive homes and such that have no good example how to treat the opposite sex and raise kids and handle money. The church should not only exist to 'reach the lost' ONLY. Cause if all we do is try to reach newbies and not teach and build firm foundations under the ones we have AND reach the lost the back door will become a ton wider than the front, IMO.

[Nahum]

Would you do this at the expense of creating weak men and women that have no real knowledge of how to treat one another once they are married and such? There are many in our churches that grew up in abusive homes and such that have no good example how to treat the opposite sex and raise kids and handle money. The church should not only exist to 'reach the lost' ONLY. Cause if all we do is try to reach newbies and not teach and build firm foundations under the ones we have AND reach the lost the back door will become a ton wider than the front, IMO.

Maybe you misunderstood me?

The issues you mentioned would definitely fall under the category of solid doctrinal teaching.

[Jack Shephard]

Maybe you misunderstood me?

The issues you mentioned would definitely fall under the category of solid doctrinal teaching.

Misunderstood ya now understand ya! I didn't want to assume you would not teach these things just checking though. :dance