How can a true beliver walk from truth

[brodano]

in my years as a apostolic oneness beliver i have seen many walk away from this PRECIOUS TRUTH. how can a person live for a lie and not DIE FOR TRUTH. it is a shame . many leave because of holiness standards or just plain attitudes. A PERSON WOULD REALLY WONDER IF THEY REALLY HAD A TRUE EXPERIENCE WITH GOD...

[StMark]

in my years as a apostolic oneness beliver i have seen many walk away from this PRECIOUS TRUTH. how can a person live for a lie and not DIE FOR TRUTH. it is a shame . many leave because of holiness standards or just plain attitudes. A PERSON WOULD REALLY WONDER IF THEY REALLY HAD A TRUE EXPERIENCE WITH GOD...

I've had a number of friends and people I knew leave the
UPC or leave the Apostolic faith. Some have gone into some
really weird and disturbing doctrines.

I think that most of the time it stems from hurt and bitterness.

[brodano]

true if they really loved the LORD they would over come all that stuff. and run the race not worrying about what others thought of them and treated them.. we gotta make it no matter what . don'tr let the devil still your salvation.

[StMark]

true if they really loved the LORD they would over come all that stuff. and run the race not worrying about what others thought of them and treated them.. we gotta make it no matter what . don'tr let the devil still your salvation.


Some of them have seen some unbelievable stuff - I wont go
into it but they became hurt by it and that lead to disilusionment.

When a leader fails, some people can't ever seem to trust again.
Others do recover though - maybe it depends on a persons
emotions I don't know

[Pro31:28]

Some of them have seen some unbelievable stuff - I wont go
into it but they became hurt by it and that lead to disilusionment.

When a leader fails, some people can't ever seem to trust again.
Others do recover though - maybe it depends on a persons
emotions I don't know

I would tend to agree with you. Becuase certain churches teach that ministers are beyond reproach and in a sense "sitting at the right hand of God", when they fail; people feel like God does too.

[Brad Murphy]

I would tend to agree with you. Becuase certain churches teach that ministers are beyond reproach and in a sense "sitting at the right hand of God", when they fail; people feel like God does too.

That added to the supposed "godly" discernment that most ministers claim to have. If they really had this discernment then certain other preachers would never have been allowed to continue being preachers... regardless of how well-known they are (or were).

[Pro31:28]

That added to the supposed "godly" discernment that most ministers claim to have. If they really had this discernment then certain other preachers would never have been allowed to continue being preachers... regardless of how well-known they are (or were).

OUCH! But you are right

[Rhoni]

in my years as a apostolic oneness beliver i have seen many walk away from this PRECIOUS TRUTH. how can a person live for a lie and not DIE FOR TRUTH. it is a shame . many leave because of holiness standards or just plain attitudes. A PERSON WOULD REALLY WONDER IF THEY REALLY HAD A TRUE EXPERIENCE WITH GOD...

brodana,

It appears that you are equating "truth" with dress standards. Many people are assumed to have left "truth" when they leave the conservative traditional way they were brought up but this is not necessarily the case.

Also, many equate leaving "truth" to leaving a particular church or organization and this is not necessarily so.

Your statement...A PERSON WOULD REALLY WONDER IF THEY REALLY HAD A TRUE EXPERIENCE WITH GOD is just a phrase used to label a person who disagrees or leaves a church or organization making the hearer question the beliefs of the person who left.

The whole premise for your thread was based on the false assumption that those who disagree with an interpretation of scripture, a church, or an organization have some how "left the truth" when in fact, they may have just progressed in the revelation of what truth truly is.

Just something to think about.

Blessigns, Rhoni

[Rhoni]

Some of them have seen some unbelievable stuff - I wont go
into it but they became hurt by it and that lead to disilusionment.

When a leader fails, some people can't ever seem to trust again.
Others do recover though - maybe it depends on a persons
emotions I don't know

St. Mark,

It depends on the depth of the hurt or the type of hurt that was inflicted. It isn't that the person can't 'forgive' especially if they have a relationship with God, but they cannot forget to the point of blind obedience and submission to a leader, or group of leaders associated with the hurt.

For myself, it is very difficult for me to excuse or 'put up with' this type of leadership again. Now, I know that not all leadership within a same church or organization are wrong, but they tend to function under the same paradigm as the group as a whole.

Does it have to do with an individual's emotions? You can't rule that out. Does it have to do with an individuals thought processes - you can't rule this out either.

I tend to raise children, and minister in leadership much the same way. Discipline is utilized when necessary but not as a way to manipulate and control others. I always allowed my children the freedom to experess their thoughts and feelings and do things as long as they didn't harm themselves or others. When I have had to be rigid I could be but this is as last resort not the rule.

In leadership I try to train leaders who could take my job if I left. This is contrary to the thought paradigm of those I had been a part of off and on through my life. Many leaders are afraid to empower others would take away from their role or position and they feel 'threatened' by anyone with leadership abilities beyond their own.

Example: I was part of a progressive assembly who wanted to reach out beyond their walls to the community. They bought a professional tri-fold advertisement that listed all the ministries that people in the community could access through this particular assembly.

I was part of the ministry team and asked to do "Divorce Recovery" as a support group for church members as well as community. When it came out, I noticed what I thought was a typo or an oversight. I e-mailed the Pastor and said that in the tri-fold my licensure credentials had been left out and they might want to reprint this if it was to affect the community. I was state licensed and worked for the largest mental health agencies in the state. This would be an outreach tool to get community people to want to come to such a group instead of listing that it was being lead by Sis. Rhonda Cyprus.

The scathing e-mail I got in return was...[paraphrased] Who did I think I was? It isn't about me. I hadn't proven myself enough in the church...yada yada yada... Typical statement from insecure leadership. It isn't about me, not about them...it was about outreach to a community that had excellent mental health services and would not come to an obscure church for a divorce recovery group led by a Sis. Cyprus, but would come to one led by a licensed professional that was known within the community.

This is what I mean by paradigm thinking of a certain group of leaders. It is God's church and God equips and uses those he chooses to and not those who leadership chooses that would promote themselves, and not promote kingdom ministry.

I said all that to say...these kind of hurts are not personal to me, because I feel it is about them...but for me to attend churches with this paradigm of thinking would just increase the chances that the 'issues' I have will be revisited time and again making the sore spots even more sore.

Others may not agree with me, and many leadership won't but others will get it and know what I mean.

Sincerely,
Rhoni

[brodano]

in my years as a apostolic oneness beliver i have seen many walk away from this PRECIOUS TRUTH. how can a person live for a lie and not DIE FOR TRUTH. it is a shame . many leave because of holiness standards or just plain attitudes. A PERSON WOULD REALLY WONDER IF THEY REALLY HAD A TRUE EXPERIENCE WITH GOD...

why would one really leave truth for a lie?

[Rico]

I didn't realize you had started this thread. It kinda goes hand in hand with the thread I started today on becoming an ex-pentecostal. Brodana, what do you think the stages are that one goes through in becoming an ex-pentecostal?

[jaxfam6]

why would one really leave truth for a lie?

I have a suggestion on who you might ask but if I named them I would probably get in trouble.

:whistle

[Praxeas]

in my years as a apostolic oneness beliver i have seen many walk away from this PRECIOUS TRUTH. how can a person live for a lie and not DIE FOR TRUTH. it is a shame . many leave because of holiness standards or just plain attitudes. A PERSON WOULD REALLY WONDER IF THEY REALLY HAD A TRUE EXPERIENCE WITH GOD...
Are people walking aware from an experience or a doctrine? Martin Luther walked away from indulgences and the Catholic church. Was he wrong?

Our forefathers got the experience first back in topeka and Asuza and walked away from Trinitarian baptism and the Trinity...were they wrong?

Maybe OPs are caught in a paradigm. The RCC is caught in a Paradigm. It will never change. Maybe, just maybe we were wrong about some things all this time

If it was not for the boldness of Luther, where would we be? If it was not for the daring of those men early in the last century that accepted baptism in Jesus name contrary to accepted doctrine and tradition, where would we be.

We moved foreward, came to a path in the road and then essentially went backwards. Im not saying standards are wrong or they are all right. Im saying we went forward years ago with the ability to examine ourselves and our doctrines and see if we are right and then go with what the bible says to a place where if you dare examine our doctrines you are a carnal backsliding reprobate. The peer pressure in Oneness groups is tremendous. Tradition trumps bible. We even have oaths forbidding to even consider that some of our doctrines might be wrong. That is sad.

I disagree with Robert Sabin but he wrote a good piece against the A/S that essentially points out this was what put the catholic churches in a losing paradigm. The inability to examine your beliefs and change them. The only way to possibly do that is to leave an organization you loved and be ostracized, marginalized and trashed by your so called brethren

[brodano]

I didn't realize you had started this thread. It kinda goes hand in hand with the thread I started today on becoming an ex-pentecostal. Brodana, what do you think the stages are that one goes through in becoming an ex-pentecostal?

lack of prayer. and reading the Word. missing church and hangin out with the wrong crowd . if your weak in belief you can get caught up in thier snare.

[Sister Alvear]

People leave for many reasons...I have seen missionaries walk away because they were treated like second class citizens by pastors that just a portion of their tithe would have solved the missionary´s problem..
I have seen people become bitter that the pastor´s family was treated on a different level than the rest of the church...
I have seen people leave over just about anything and everything you can imagine...

Hurt, bitterness, deception play a big part in people leaving.

At sometime or many times we all could have turned back...and given a reason for turning back... a justified reason? well, that might be different...but...at least a reason.

Many years ago I walked in a place and caught a man and woman in bed togeter and no they were not husband and wife...He was a so called famous preacher...

I was deeply hurt and still remember wanting to die! I even prayed that I would have a car wreck and die...but as I drove around the Lord spoke to me and said these words, " Have I ever failed you, my child?"
I pulled the car over and weeping told Him, "No, my lovely Lord you have never failed..."

Always look to me and not to man, I heard him saying to me...I dried my tears...

That happened before I was married so it was many, many years ago...and through all the ups and downs of life, through all the hurts I have always remembered not to change because of hurts...if I change it will be because of God´s word...with that in mind we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

[ReformedDave]

why would one really leave truth for a lie?

People don't say "This is a lie. I think I'll believe it."

[Rhoni]

People leave for many reasons...I have seen missionaries walk away because they were treated like second class citizens by pastors that just a portion of their tithe would have solved the missionary´s problem..
I have seen people become bitter that the pastor´s family was treated on a different level than the rest of the church...
I have seen people leave over just about anything and everything you can imagine...

Hurt, bitterness, deception play a big part in people leaving.

At sometime or many times we all could have turned back...and given a reason for turning back... a justified reason? well, that might be different...but...at least a reason.

Many years ago I walked in a place and caught a man and woman in bed togeter and no they were not husband and wife...He was a so called famous preacher...

I was deeply hurt and still remember wanting to die! I even prayed that I would have a car wreck and die...but as I drove around the Lord spoke to me and said these words, " Have I ever failed you, my child?"
I pulled the car over and weeping told Him, "No, my lovely Lord you have never failed..."

Always look to me and not to man, I heard him saying to me...I dried my tears...

That happened before I was married so it was many, many years ago...and through all the ups and downs of life, through all the hurts I have always remembered not to change because of hurts...if I change it will be because of God´s word...with that in mind we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling.


The Bible tells us that a wound caused by a brother, a friend is the hardest to heal...if ever.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Michael Phelps]

in my years as a apostolic oneness beliver i have seen many walk away from this PRECIOUS TRUTH. how can a person live for a lie and not DIE FOR TRUTH. it is a shame . many leave because of holiness standards or just plain attitudes. A PERSON WOULD REALLY WONDER IF THEY REALLY HAD A TRUE EXPERIENCE WITH GOD...

I agree, Brodano.

I can't believe that women now wear red dresses, when once they were taught against.

And the fact that people now have radios, go to amusement parks and wear wedding bands just grieves me.

[ReformedDave]

I agree, Brodano.

I can't believe that women now wear red dresses, when once they were taught against.

And the fact that people now have radios, go to amusement parks and wear wedding bands just grieves me.

You are crankin today!!!!!!!:dance

[Michael Phelps]

You are crankin today!!!!!!!:dance

Just cranky. :club

[tstew]

I believe that it is neither surprising or avoidable as even the Bible fortells of a "great falling away", "the very elect being decieved", "false teachers deceiving many", "being given over to a reprobate mind"...and no I'm not saying that everybody who has left any one org. is automatically in that position. I'm just saying that we cannot get confused when we do see people walk away from Biblical principles and Truths they once held.

[Michael Phelps]

I believe that it is neither surprising or avoidable as even the Bible fortells of a "great falling away", "the very elect being decieved", "false teachers deceiving many", "being given over to a reprobate mind"...and no I'm not saying that everybody who has left any one org. is automatically in that position. I'm just saying that we cannot get confused when we do see people walk away from Biblical principles and Truths they once held.

There is a difference in walking away from Biblical truths, and walking away from traditions of men.

Wisdom is understanding the difference.

[tstew]

There is a difference in walking away from Biblical truths, and walking away from traditions of men.

Wisdom is understanding the difference.

Yes sir, I do agree with that. It does take wisdom...and a bit of bravery.

[RandyWayne]

Yes sir, I do agree with that. It does take wisdom...and a bit of bravery.

Especially when many have had it drilled into them that to walk away from THEIR CURRENT CHURCH is to walk into pure damnation.

[theoldpaths]

in my years as a apostolic oneness beliver i have seen many walk away from this PRECIOUS TRUTH. how can a person live for a lie and not DIE FOR TRUTH. it is a shame . many leave because of holiness standards or just plain attitudes. A PERSON WOULD REALLY WONDER IF THEY REALLY HAD A TRUE EXPERIENCE WITH GOD...

Some people disobey and repent with their mouth but still don't obey what God told them to do. Why is that? Perhaps pride. Jonah fled from God for "a period of time", but eventually repented and DID what God told him to do. I wonder why Jonah fled and would not obey God?

Demas forsook Paul having loved this present world. Regardless of what anyone does or says with their mouth, if they love this present world and don't get it out of their heart, I believe the time will come when they will do the same thing. Perhaps some secretly harbour things in their heart. In any event, eventually it will come out.

[ReformedDave]

Especially when many have had it drilled into them that to walk away from THEIR CURRENT CHURCH is to walk into pure damnation.

Yep!

[Brad Murphy]

Some people like going to the mall and re-assuring themselves with the "You are here" caption on the mall map... if they were ever to go to the sign and find that they were not in the "You are here" spot, they may have left the truth...