View Full Version : Do you believe in Pentecostal Shouting?
stmatthew
07-16-2008, 05:30 PM
I am amazed that some seem to believe that "old time shouting" is out of order.
Do you believe in what the old timers called "shouting". I am talking about where the power of God falls in a service and folks start cutting a jig, or screaming? I am not talking about the Charismatic 2-step we see nowadays. But where one gets "lost" in the holy ghost. It used to be called "getting a blessing".
Mrs. LPW
07-16-2008, 05:34 PM
Not into screaming or knocking out your neighbour, but Yes!
Shout with a voice of triumph!
Jack Shephard
07-16-2008, 05:36 PM
I am amazed that some seem to believe that "old time shouting" is out of order.
Do you believe in what the old timers called "shouting". I am talking about where the power of God falls in a service and folks start cutting a jig, or screaming? I am not talking about the Charismatic 2-step we see nowadays. But where one gets "lost" in the holy ghost. It used to be called "getting a blessing".
I believe in it cause I see it happen. I think that there are times for it. if someone startes screaming loudly in the middle of the service when that is not the order of the service at that time people might think they got pinched on the hind end. That would be out of order
dizzyde
07-16-2008, 05:37 PM
I don't have a problem with shouting but I do have a problem with what some people call shouting.
If you are talking about the "loose all control of your senses and have a seizure while shrieking", "shouting", I don't like it, and I don't think that God takes them over and makes them act like that.
What we call "shouting" is supposed to be about praise and worship. Do you think the loose all control stuff is about praise? What you are calling 2 step is more in line with what you see in the Bible, and I am all for it.
That is not to say that I think that the people who do the old time seizure/screaming fit stuff are bad or have a bad motivation. I think they are just following what they have seen and interpret to be praise.
Where this all got started, and why is what I would like to know?
LadyChocolate
07-16-2008, 05:39 PM
I am amazed that some seem to believe that "old time shouting" is out of order.
Do you believe in what the old timers called "shouting". I am talking about where the power of God falls in a service and folks start cutting a jig, or screaming? I am not talking about the Charismatic 2-step we see nowadays. But where one gets "lost" in the holy ghost. It used to be called "getting a blessing".
By all means yes! There's just something about it when God starts moving and His presence is everywhere.... When you know He is there and you can feel those chains that had you bound just fall from your feet and hands...and you get so excited about the goodness of the Lord....:shockamoo ...and then you wanna lift yo hands and praise... you wanna dance and shout with a voice of triumph!
yes, I believe it! ...and now I am sooo ready to have some church!
Now, when people flop around like fish and trample others and step on children....that's out of order....I don't believe you lose total control of your senses to where you cannot control yourself at all...
stmatthew
07-16-2008, 05:52 PM
This may explain where I am coming from a little better.
I was raised in a church where the power of God fell often, and folks shouted, danced, ran, and screamed. it was normal for folks to come to church expecting to receive a "blessing" from God. I watched the holy ghost come upon my mom as she sang and played the organ, and she would begin to sing in tongues. I watched as the holy ghost would come upon my dad, and often he would cut loose into what some would call "the jerks", but what most of you now call out of order. I saw others that I could name, shouting, dancing in the spirit, screaming, and hollering. But I also heard the Word preached. I saw conviction hit folks that caused them to run to an alter. I saw folks pray through to the holy ghost. I saw cancers fall of into peoples hands. I saw folks healed, delivered, and set free.
This would be another example:
I have witnessed with my own eye's a man shout backwards, fall over a row of folding chairs, smack dab onto a sleeping baby, and rolled back off of the baby, never missing a beat. The baby was fine, and never even woke up.
I could also add this:
Often, when the holy ghost came upon my mother, she would scream out, and turn slowly in circles with raise hands. At times, she would shout her hair down, and we kids spent time after service collecting the bobbypins for her and some of the other ladies in the church
Asking me if I believe in shouting is like asking me if I believe that monkeys climb trees! :D
stmatthew
07-16-2008, 06:05 PM
When I was young, my brother and I used to make fun of a "Bro Daniels", because every time he shouted, his shoes would go flying. It never failed!! My brother and I (the devils we PK's were) had it down, and would often see who could kick our shoes the farthest when we imitated him. :D
WyoPastor
07-16-2008, 06:08 PM
What you are calling 2 step is more in line with what you see in the Bible, and I am all for it.
I seem to remember David dancing and praising God to the point his wife was ashamed of him. I doubt that was a little 2 step dance.
I'm not a real demonstrative person myself, but I've cut a rug a time or 2. I've probably done everything that you think is out of order and I know I have sure felt better afterwards.
When I was young, my brother and I used to make fun of a "Bro Daniels", because every time he shouted, his shoes would go flying. It never failed!! My brother and I (the devils we PK's were) had it down, and would often see who could kick our shoes the farthest when we imitated him. :D
It's funny watching children imitate the "jigs" people do in church. :lol
Dr. Vaughn
07-16-2008, 06:14 PM
I seem to remember David dancing and praising God to the point his wife was ashamed of him. I doubt that was a little 2 step dance.
I'm not a real demonstrative person myself, but I've cut a rug a time or 2. I've probably done everything that you think is out of order and I know I have sure felt better afterwards.
Actually it would be what we consider a two step.. it was not uncontrollable dancing as we see in Pentecostal churches... the word DANCE used with David is the original word CHOREO... which we derive Chorepgraphed from.... all Jewish Dancing is in the form of either circle dancing or very controlled celebratory dance.. He danced according to his Jewish Custom... there was nothing out of control......
Dr. Vaughn
07-16-2008, 06:15 PM
To everything under there sun,,,, there is a purpose..... please explain to us the PURPOSE of shouting.
To everything under there sun,,,, there is a purpose..... please explain to us the PURPOSE of shouting.
To give you something to be against? :D
stmatthew
07-16-2008, 06:19 PM
To everything under there sun,,,, there is a purpose..... please explain to us the PURPOSE of shouting.
Ask God, he is the one that causes it.
WyoPastor
07-16-2008, 06:20 PM
Actually it would be what we consider a two step.. it was not uncontrollable dancing as we see in Pentecostal churches... the word DANCE used with David is the original word CHOREO... which we derive Chorepgraphed from.... all Jewish Dancing is in the form of either circle dancing or very controlled celebratory dance.. He danced according to his Jewish Custom... there was nothing out of control......
Since you like to try to explain away everything Old Time Pentecostal, please explain why his wife was so upset if he was just dancing a "very controlled celebratory dance."
stmatthew
07-16-2008, 06:24 PM
Actually it would be what we consider a two step.. it was not uncontrollable dancing as we see in Pentecostal churches... the word DANCE used with David is the original word CHOREO... which we derive Chorepgraphed from.... all Jewish Dancing is in the form of either circle dancing or very controlled celebratory dance.. He danced according to his Jewish Custom... there was nothing out of control......
Actually, the Hebrew word used was:
karar (kä·rar')
1) (Pilpel) to whirl, dance
a) whirling, dancing (participle)
So the scripture suggests that David spun around with all he had in him. Kind of like a spinning top. Of course he didn't have the Holy Ghost either.
Actually, the Hebrew word used was:
karar (kä·rar')
1) (Pilpel) to whirl, dance
a) whirling, dancing (participle)
So the scripture suggests that David spun around with all he had in him. Kind of like a spinning top. Of course he didn't have the Holy Ghost either.
U mean David did the "helicopter" thing? KEWL!! I didn't know that!
Dr. Vaughn
07-16-2008, 06:28 PM
Since you like to try to explain away everything Old Time Pentecostal, please explain why his wife was so upset if he was just dancing a "very controlled celebratory dance."
WYOPASTOR..... his wife was not upset because he was dancing... dancing was a common and still is a common custom among Jewish people... she was upset because he ABASED HIMSELF and shed his ROYAL ROBES and made himself common among the people
II Sam 6:20 puts it all in perspective.. the Pentecostals would be well served to read these verses before trying to use something that DID NOT HAPPEN to justify the emotionalism of Pentecost...
NOW BROTHER, after reading the following verse.. you tell me .... was she mad because he danced or because he removed his ROYAL ROBES?
II SAM 6:20 - Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!
You simply hear the voice of a JEALOUS WIFE because the handmaids saw David in basically his common garments...... she was not upset because he was dancing before the Lord but rather because he disrobed himself... all the way down to his linen ephod..... rather than portraying himself in his royal garments...
stmatthew
07-16-2008, 06:28 PM
U mean David did the "helicopter" thing? KEWL!! I didn't know that!
That is what the verse below implies.
2Sa 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all [his] might; and David [was] girded with a linen ephod.
tstew
07-16-2008, 06:28 PM
I ought to post some shouting vids from our church. That would probably let you know where I stand on the issue. :shockamoo
Dr. Vaughn
07-16-2008, 06:29 PM
U mean David did the "helicopter" thing? KEWL!! I didn't know that!
All Jewish dancing is known commonly as a circle dance.. yes whirling,, very controlled, very common,, very NON PENTECOSTAL
WYOPASTOR..... his wife was not upset because he was dancing... dancing was a common and still is a common custom among Jewish people... she was upset because he ABASED HIMSELF and shed his ROYAL ROBES and made himself common among the people
II Sam 6:20 puts it all in perspective.. the Pentecostals would be well served to read these verses before trying to use something that DID NOT HAPPEN to justify the emotionalism of Pentecost...
NOW BROTHER, after reading the following verse.. you tell me .... was she mad because he danced or because he removed his ROYAL ROBES?
II SAM 6:20 - Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!
You simply hear the voice of a JEALOUS WIFE because the handmaids saw David in basically his common garments...... she was not upset because he was dancing before the Lord but rather because he disrobed himself... all the way down to his linen ephod..... rather than portraying himself in his royal garments...
She got upset because he was basically in his underwear. That's common knowledge, isn't it?
Dr. Vaughn
07-16-2008, 06:31 PM
I think the following question would have been a more interesting thread title...
Does the NT support shouting in church?
Does the NT give us any examples of Pentecostal Shouting?
Does the NT give more instruction for church order or for pandemonium?
All Jewish dancing is known commonly as a circle dance.. yes whirling,, very controlled, very common,, very NON PENTECOSTAL
I'm not Jewish, so I don't care how they dance. I am excited, however, to find out that David was doing a whirling kind of dance. That's what used to happen to me back in my shoutin all over church days.
Dr. Vaughn
07-16-2008, 06:32 PM
She got upset because he was basically in his underwear. That's common knowledge, isn't it?
Yes,,, but the Pentecostals try to make it seem that she was upset because he was SHOUTING...... actually WYO Pastor made reference to that same understanding
I ought to post some shouting vids from our church. That would probably let you know where I stand on the issue. :shockamoo
Go 'head on, Bro! I like them kind of services. :D
Dr. Vaughn
07-16-2008, 06:33 PM
I'm not Jewish, so I don't care how they dance. I am excited, however, to find out that David was doing a whirling kind of dance. That's what used to happen to me back in my shoutin all over church days.
I promise you RICO... go with me to JErusalem and you will not see one instance of whirling that reminds you of your type of whirling..... their dance is very controlled, very choreographed and very NON PENTECOSTAL and this is the type of dancing that we find David doing...... not Pentecostal Shouting
Yes,,, but the Pentecostals try to make it seem that she was upset because he was SHOUTING...... actually WYO Pastor made reference to that same understanding
Never heard anyone preach it any other way other than her being upset because he was in his undies.
I promise you RICO... go with me to JErusalem and you will not see one instance of whirling that reminds you of your type of whirling..... their dance is very controlled, very choreographed and very NON PENTECOSTAL and this is the type of dancing that we find David doing...... not Pentecostal Shouting
Why would I want to let people who have rejected Christ determine for me how I should dance before the Lord?
Dr. Vaughn
07-16-2008, 06:36 PM
Never heard anyone preach it any other way other than her being upset because he was in his undies.
Actually he was not in his Undies.. he was in a Linen Ephod which was religious robes rather than royal robes....... the linen ephod would have been worn under his royal garments and then his underclothes under the linen ephod.. so he was not in his Undies.. he was not dancing so uncontrollably that he was in his underwear... he ABASED himself to the common man and was seen in an Ephod in public rather than his Royal Robes....
I will never understand how the Pentecostals can make any more out of that experience then what actually happened
Carpenter
07-16-2008, 06:36 PM
I don't mind the dancing part, but losing your composure...well...it is a fine line.
I don't like the cultural aspects. Sometimes people like to estimate your level of spirituality based on how you shout or used to shout or if you dont shout at all.
"wow, I wonder whats wrong with Carpenter, he never gets out there and shouts like he used to."
Dr. Vaughn
07-16-2008, 06:37 PM
Why would I want to let people who have rejected Christ determine for me how I should dance before the Lord?
Lol,, they had to reject Christ... it was predestined for them that you might accept Christ.. their turn is coming,.,. be careful there brother,,,, they were the original worshippers of the one true God... he taught them how to worship him...
stmatthew
07-16-2008, 06:37 PM
WYOPASTOR..... his wife was not upset because he was dancing... dancing was a common and still is a common custom among Jewish people... she was upset because he ABASED HIMSELF and shed his ROYAL ROBES and made himself common among the people
II Sam 6:20 puts it all in perspective.. the Pentecostals would be well served to read these verses before trying to use something that DID NOT HAPPEN to justify the emotionalism of Pentecost...
NOW BROTHER, after reading the following verse.. you tell me .... was she mad because he danced or because he removed his ROYAL ROBES?
II SAM 6:20 - Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!
You simply hear the voice of a JEALOUS WIFE because the handmaids saw David in basically his common garments...... she was not upset because he was dancing before the Lord but rather because he disrobed himself... all the way down to his linen ephod..... rather than portraying himself in his royal garments...
Again you are wrong. Her despite for David was because she saw him worshiping.
2Sa 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.
BTW - David wore the Linen Ephod because he was dressed in the attire of a Priest, instead of a King. He would soon be offering sacrifices to God (2Sa 6:17). A linen ephod was not underwear.
I don't mind the dancing part, but losing your composure...well...it is a fine line.
I don't like the cultural aspects. Sometimes people like to estimate your level of spirituality based on how you shout or used to shout or if you dont shout at all.
"wow, I wonder whats wrong with Carpenter, he never gets out there and shouts like he used to."
Very true, Carp. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that way too.
Again you are wrong. Her despite for David was because she saw him worshiping.
2Sa 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.
BTW - David wore the Linen Ephod because he was dressed in the attire of a Priest, instead of a King. He would soon be offering sacrifices to God (2Sa 6:17). A linen ephod was not underwear.
Yeah, but wasn't a linen ephod a type of underclothing they wore? I didn't mean underwear in the way we think of underwear. I should have been more clear on that.
dizzyde
07-16-2008, 06:40 PM
I seem to remember David dancing and praising God to the point his wife was ashamed of him. I doubt that was a little 2 step dance.
I'm not a real demonstrative person myself, but I've cut a rug a time or 2. I've probably done everything that you think is out of order and I know I have sure felt better afterwards.
I have nothing against cutting a rug, as you call it, I am talking about when people throw fits in church.
I have had more than one very learned men of God preach/teach that what David did was the typical Jewish dance and the outrage was that he removed his royal garment.
As I know who these men are and trust their interpretation of scripture, and I don't know who you are, I think I will go with their version.
Lol,, they had to reject Christ... it was predestined for them that you might accept Christ.. their turn is coming,.,. be careful there brother,,,, they were the original worshippers of the one true God... he taught them how to worship him...
Brother, I don't recall God ever giving dancing lessons to His people in the OT. It may be there, but I don't recall reading about it.
stmatthew
07-16-2008, 06:46 PM
Actually he was not in his Undies.. he was in a Linen Ephod which was religious robes rather than royal robes....... the linen ephod would have been worn under his royal garments and then his underclothes under the linen ephod.. so he was not in his Undies.. he was not dancing so uncontrollably that he was in his underwear... he ABASED himself to the common man and was seen in an Ephod in public rather than his Royal Robes....
This I do agree with. Michal despised David because he was not coming into the city as a King, but as a Priest, worshiping God. She was probably a society girl. and felt humiliated. So she despised him.
Of course David put her in her place:
2Sa 6:21 And David said unto Michal, [It was] before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.
2Sa 6:22 And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.
BUT the point is that David worshiped WITH ALL HIS MIGHT. It was not some ballerina twirl, but a spinning top that was seen.
Dr. Vaughn
07-16-2008, 06:47 PM
Brother, I don't recall God ever giving dancing lessons to His people in the OT. It may be there, but I don't recall reading about it.
Oh absolutely,,, precise instruction in how they might approach him... all the way down to the fabric that they must wear.....
He then instructs them to come into his presence with CHOREO... a very controlled celebratory dance.....
Dr. Vaughn
07-16-2008, 06:49 PM
This I do agree with. Michal despised David because he was not coming into the city as a King, but as a Priest, worshiping God. She was probably a society girl. and felt humiliated. So she despised him.
Of course David put her in her place:
2Sa 6:21 And David said unto Michal, [It was] before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.
2Sa 6:22 And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.
BUT the point is that David worshiped WITH ALL HIS MIGHT. It was not some ballerina twirl, but a spinning top that was seen.
St. Matthew..... why would he have danced in any other way than he had been trained in? What causes you to believe he would have broken rank with his traditional Jewish dance... which by the way takes alot of might... I enjoy partaking in Jewish dancing at one of our churches in Jerusalem and trust me is wears you out after a few minutes...... yet all Biblical scholars will concede that Davids dance was a typical Jewish dance.. that looks NOTHING like an out of control person losing all of their senses
Oh absolutely,,, precise instruction in how they might approach him... all the way down to the fabric that they must wear.....
He then instructs them to come into his presence with CHOREO... a very controlled celebratory dance.....
Where's the scripture where God was giving them dance lessons?
Hebrew Strong's Number: 646
Hebrew Word: אֵפוֹד
Transliteration: ʾēpōd
Phonetic Pronunciation:ay-fode'
Root: probably of foreign derivation
Cross Reference: TWOT - 142.1a
Part of Speech: n m
Vine's Words: None
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
ephod 49
[Total Count: 49]
rarely 'ephod, ay-fode'; probably of foreign derivative; a girdle; specifically the ephod or high-priest's shoulder-piece; also generally an image :- ephod.
—Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary
Hmmmmm. An ephod was a type of girdle. Maybe that's where the underwear thing came into play. Learn something new every day! :)
Cindy
07-16-2008, 06:57 PM
I think God honors any way you praise Him. Dance, sing, speak, or shout. It's between you and God and is nobody else's business. There are more ways than one to quench the Spirit.
stmatthew
07-16-2008, 07:02 PM
St. Matthew..... why would he have danced in any other way than he had been trained in? What causes you to believe he would have broken rank with his traditional Jewish dance... which by the way takes alot of might... I enjoy partaking in Jewish dancing at one of our churches in Jerusalem and trust me is wears you out after a few minutes...... yet all Biblical scholars will concede that Davids dance was a typical Jewish dance.. that looks NOTHING like an out of control person losing all of their senses
I am not saying he didn't dance similar to what Jews danced like. But scripture indicates that he spun in a circular direction with all his might. It does NOT say he danced as the Jews dances. It also states that he leaped and skipped, and was beside himself, laughing and carrying on. Was this part of the Jewish dance also?? To leap and skip?
All I have is what the WORD states. And it states that David gave it his all while he was doing it.
But in all this, David is not an example to us, as he did not have the Holy Ghost. I am all for dancing and leaping, and giving God praise with ALL we got. But I also recognize that when the power of Pentecost falls in a service, folks get lost in the Spirit, and do shout. If you want to call it out of order, or say it is not biblical, that is fine with me. But I will take "out of order" over a dead dry religion that has a powerless holy spirit.
Jermyn Davidson
07-16-2008, 07:24 PM
I don't have a problem with shouting but I do have a problem with what some people call shouting.
If you are talking about the "loose all control of your senses and have a seizure while shrieking", "shouting", I don't like it, and I don't think that God takes them over and makes them act like that.
Dizzyde,
This has only happened to me once but there was a time that I had asked the Lord to move me in my praise and worship in a way that I had never been moved before so as to confirm something to me that I had been praying about. At this time, I had a very strong relationship with the Lord.
I was in Alabama at the time. I spun around so fast that Sunday night and did some other stuff too-- stuff that I never, never do.
It has only happened once, but it happened to me, during the praise & worship part of the service.
Dr. Vaughn
07-16-2008, 07:32 PM
Hebrew Strong's Number: 646
Hebrew Word: אֵפוֹד
Transliteration: ʾēpōd
Phonetic Pronunciation:ay-fode'
Root: probably of foreign derivation
Cross Reference: TWOT - 142.1a
Part of Speech: n m
Vine's Words: None
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
ephod 49
[Total Count: 49]
rarely 'ephod, ay-fode'; probably of foreign derivative; a girdle; specifically the ephod or high-priest's shoulder-piece; also generally an image :- ephod.
—Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary
Hmmmmm. An ephod was a type of girdle. Maybe that's where the underwear thing came into play. Learn something new every day! :)
Bro. Rico..... a Jewish girdle is NOTHING like what your thinking of... when we visit the synagogues in Jerusalem they give you an example of a girdle.... a girdle was any cloth that fitted the body..... the ephod was not the type of girdle that you are thinking of....
Dr. Vaughn
07-16-2008, 07:33 PM
I am not saying he didn't dance similar to what Jews danced like. But scripture indicates that he spun in a circular direction with all his might. It does NOT say he danced as the Jews dances. It also states that he leaped and skipped, and was beside himself, laughing and carrying on. Was this part of the Jewish dance also?? To leap and skip?
All I have is what the WORD states. And it states that David gave it his all while he was doing it.
But in all this, David is not an example to us, as he did not have the Holy Ghost. I am all for dancing and leaping, and giving God praise with ALL we got. But I also recognize that when the power of Pentecost falls in a service, folks get lost in the Spirit, and do shout. If you want to call it out of order, or say it is not biblical, that is fine with me. But I will take "out of order" over a dead dry religion that has a powerless holy spirit.
Do you believe God is more pleased with fleshism or reverence?
In the NT which is our GUIDE for church order...... do we see any examples of displays of the flesh? Yes we do and Paul tried his best to correct them.
dizzyde
07-16-2008, 07:35 PM
Dizzyde,
This has only happened to me once but there was a time that I had asked the Lord to move me in my praise and worship in a way that I had never been moved before so as to confirm something to me that I had been praying about. At this time, I had a very strong relationship with the Lord.
I was in Alabama at the time. I spun around so fast that Sunday night and did some other stuff too-- stuff that I never, never do.
It has only happened once, but it happened to me, during the praise & worship part of the service.
Well, I understand what you are saying and I have seen people at my church do this before, and I know that some of these people have had something really deep happening, but again, I don't necessarily think this is necessarily a normal praise and worship experience. One dear sister did this on Sunday night, and it was totally appropriate when it happened.
On the other hand I have seen people do this sort of thing when it felt like pure carnality and was completely disruptive.
I guess that is what I am trying to say, the spirit that it is done is the most important thing. If it is meant to be praise, I think that it is usually apparent. And the kind of experience you are describing is something that I don't think happens a person every time they go to church.
What really bothers is when people mock more controlled forms of worship, as if it is something less than real worship. That is offensive to me, I watched both my pastor and my bishop dance before the Lord on Sunday night, and I would defy anyone who would tell me that they were not worshiping God with their whole hearts.
Bro. Rico..... a Jewish girdle is NOTHING like what your thinking of... when we visit the synagogues in Jerusalem they give you an example of a girdle.... a girdle was any cloth that fitted the body..... the ephod was not the type of girdle that you are thinking of....
I didn't say I was thinking an ephod was like a woman's girdle, Vaughn. I am saying a connection was made to an ephod being underwearlike garment because it was a girdle. It's possible the preacher who preached on this used "underwear" to describe it when I heard it preached and that's where I got the idea. It's not that big a deal to me either way.
Sister Alvear
07-16-2008, 07:51 PM
It is interesting that Miriam (the sister of Moses and Aaron) was called a prophetess, yet nowhere in scripture does it record a single prophecy that she brought fourth. However I have heard that praise dancing(?) was taught in the school of the prophets. Apparently, the nation of Israel viewed dance as a prophetic gifting, and treated it as such. I am trying to remember if it was Elijah or Elisha that was born in a place that transalated means field of dancing...( I have my Bible study over at the church and I am now at home or I would be more exact.)
When did shouting become Pentecostal?
rgcraig
07-16-2008, 08:13 PM
When did shouting become Pentecostal?
Good point.
Perhaps there is Pentecostal shouting, then there is Biblical dancing like David did and the twain are mixed?
Steve Epley
07-16-2008, 08:16 PM
This I do agree with. Michal despised David because he was not coming into the city as a King, but as a Priest, worshiping God. She was probably a society girl. and felt humiliated. So she despised him.
Of course David put her in her place:
2Sa 6:21 And David said unto Michal, [It was] before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.
2Sa 6:22 And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.
BUT the point is that David worshiped WITH ALL HIS MIGHT. It was not some ballerina twirl, but a spinning top that was seen.
Matt keep laying the book on him.
Steve Epley
07-16-2008, 08:19 PM
I do not indict those who are not as demostrative as myself in worship since worship is between God and the worshipper. However to disparage those who are demostrative is coming between the worshipper and his God.
Sister Alvear
07-16-2008, 08:22 PM
We shout in Brazil.
Sister Alvear
07-16-2008, 08:27 PM
I think services should follow the leading of the spirit. I told our people tonight at a little village church that we need the anointing of God in our services more than anything else.
I am amazed that some seem to believe that "old time shouting" is out of order.
Do you believe in what the old timers called "shouting". I am talking about where the power of God falls in a service and folks start cutting a jig, or screaming? I am not talking about the Charismatic 2-step we see nowadays. But where one gets "lost" in the holy ghost. It used to be called "getting a blessing".
We had one of those services tonight... it was AWESOME-- old fashioned "holy ghost church" !! (When is the last time you participated in an old fashioned "victory march" ? )
It's funny watching children imitate the "jigs" people do in church. :lol
I'm SO glad the kids were all out in kidzchurch tonight.... My son is going through this stage (or at least I hope it's just a stage) of where he likes to imitate strange things he sees.
At youth camp, there was this boy who was double jointed who was showing my son some of the things he could do. My son has been trying for weeks to imitate him.
Tonight there was a lady who was just lost in the Holy Ghost for quite some time. Her dance was best described by her daughter-in-law as "the funky chicken dance" when she was telling the lady's daughter who works with kids church about the service.
I would have been SO embarassed if my son had been out there and wanted to imitate her....
Sept5SavedTeen
07-16-2008, 08:41 PM
I miss Pentecostal shouting and dancing and running the aisles. Whenever I go to church in Plaster Rock I get to do all those things, or if I'm at an old-school, conservative church I do that, but my home assembly is sort of mellow and people clap and maybe tap their foot a bit, but shouting would seem out of order and running the aisles wouldn't be something people would really do. If you are in a less outwardly demonstrative assembly, should you tailor the way that you worship for the sake of your brethren?
GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex
Scott Hutchinson
07-16-2008, 09:15 PM
Yes I believe in Holy Ghost shouting.We need to get happy in church.
Sister Alvear
07-16-2008, 10:02 PM
Whom the son hath set free is free indeed.
Steve Epley
07-16-2008, 10:06 PM
Those who are kinds anti-shouting folks always believe it is God WHEN they shout that is different.
Scott Hutchinson
07-16-2008, 10:13 PM
I've been done before I was too loud in church,by my wife but I told her people in the clubs get loud,I'm in church and I want to enjoy myself.
Cindy
07-16-2008, 10:20 PM
I remember when I was little we actually marched around our church singing, our pastor was playing his guitar, we had people playing tambourines and other instruments.
Hoovie
07-16-2008, 10:23 PM
Actually it would be what we consider a two step.. it was not uncontrollable dancing as we see in Pentecostal churches... the word DANCE used with David is the original word CHOREO... which we derive Chorepgraphed from.... all Jewish Dancing is in the form of either circle dancing or very controlled celebratory dance.. He danced according to his Jewish Custom... there was nothing out of control......
That is what I think as well.
Hoovie
07-16-2008, 10:26 PM
I don't mind the dancing part, but losing your composure...well...it is a fine line.I don't like the cultural aspects. Sometimes people like to estimate your level of spirituality based on how you shout or used to shout or if you dont shout at all.
"wow, I wonder whats wrong with Carpenter, he never gets out there and shouts like he used to."
Amen
Sister Alvear
07-16-2008, 10:31 PM
I would hate to be in a car I could not control!
Michael The Disciple
07-16-2008, 11:02 PM
We are told in Psalms to dance before the Lord. Thats something we can do. Im for it. But I think over the years it has taken the place of the real New Testament body ministry.
26: How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 1 Cor. 14:26
Dancing or "shouting" is our emotions, our joy in the Lord. I far prefer the marvelous Charismatic worship meetings I have been in than the old time Pentecostal meetings.
Dr. Vaughn
07-17-2008, 05:41 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07cmMhQxjfg&feature=related
If your asking me if this is what I believe in... in this video.... the answer is no.... what Glory does this bring to God?
LUKE2447
07-17-2008, 06:50 AM
St. Matthew..... why would he have danced in any other way than he had been trained in? What causes you to believe he would have broken rank with his traditional Jewish dance... which by the way takes alot of might... I enjoy partaking in Jewish dancing at one of our churches in Jerusalem and trust me is wears you out after a few minutes...... yet all Biblical scholars will concede that Davids dance was a typical Jewish dance.. that looks NOTHING like an out of control person losing all of their senses
Because maybe God likes it when you break the ritual sometimes and give him something from your own soul than something from someone elses with all your heart. We all make our own dance/song before him everyday. David very much could have sang is own song/dance through inspiration!
LUKE2447
07-17-2008, 06:53 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07cmMhQxjfg&feature=related
If your asking me if this is what I believe in... in this video.... the answer is no.... what Glory does this bring to God?
HEHEHE the music which I thought was great. Some got a little out of control but for the most part I see nothing wrong with that. Especially at the beginning. Even then though I wouldrather a person give everything they got and God move in there life than..... hey bud you need... hey come back ...quit dancing, hey you need to... Sorry not going to do that.
Oh and I never have gotten the rolling on the floor while banging your head. OUCH!
Dr. Vaughn
07-17-2008, 07:21 AM
HEHEHE the music which I thought was great. Some got a little out of control but for the most part I see nothing wrong with that. Especially at the beginning. Even then though I wouldrather a person give everything they got and God move in there life than..... hey bud you need... hey come back ...quit dancing, hey you need to... Sorry not going to do that.
Oh and I never have gotten the rolling on the floor while banging your head. OUCH!
Its pure displays of emotional fleshism...... God receives NO GLORY
Cindy
07-17-2008, 07:35 AM
I find it kind of strange that so many want to speak of what is or is not glorifying to God. All that we do should be for the glory of God. How we do it is between us and Him. Some sure like to put themselves up there with God to judge others worship and praise. Of course there is nothing new in that. Since none of us can save a soul, we really can't tell others what is the right way for them to worship God. The ONE who can.
LUKE2447
07-17-2008, 07:48 AM
Its pure displays of emotional fleshism...... God receives NO GLORY
According to you! Thus your opinion!
I find it kind of strange that so many want to speak of what is or is not glorifying to God. All that we do should be for the glory of God. How we do it is between us and Him. Some sure like to put themselves up there with God to judge others worship and praise. Of course there is nothing new in that. Since none of us can save a soul, we really can't tell others what is the right way for them to worship God. The ONE who can.
Sister, some people aren't happy unless they make themselves feel special or closer to God than others. It's nothing new.
Obispo Matador
07-17-2008, 09:01 AM
Pentecostales,
The Church is just not 4 walls. You are the Church.
Your worship should be a lifestyle.
How else are we to worship Him if not in our cuerpos?
A suggestion, if I may,
your men shoud wear holy sombreros and your women holy veils when it rains.
Paz de Cristo,
OM
Steve Epley
07-17-2008, 09:05 AM
Its pure displays of emotional fleshism...... God receives NO GLORY
Like the woman breaking the box and pouring the costly ointment on Jesus feet then drying his feet with her hair? Judas thought that was a waste also?
What purpose could that serve do you suppose it was geared emotionally?
Sister Alvear
07-17-2008, 09:06 AM
I think God accepts our worship. Some pastors understand worship better than others and thus the church usually reflects the pastor´s worship.
Sister Alvear
07-17-2008, 09:14 AM
For example Raul Jr thinks they haven´t had church until they shout. I (in Brazil in our church) sometimes would rather walk around as we sing and pray with others...my son Ednei shouts about every Sunday...I weep a lot but when I was younger and able I would get out there with whoever was worshipping to encourage others...
and I do enjoy pure Jewish worship.
I see a coming day...well I better not get on what I think...ha...
StillStanding
07-17-2008, 09:16 AM
Shockamoo is a form of worship to Pentecostals just like lighting a candle and other sacraments are to Catholics. Each has been handed down from generation to generation as means to worship God.
Steve Epley
07-17-2008, 09:18 AM
Shockamoo is a form of worship to Pentecostals just like lighting a candle and other sacraments are to Catholics. Each has been handed down from generation to generation as means to worship God.
And someone lit candles to worship God where?
Dr. Vaughn
07-17-2008, 09:18 AM
Like the woman breaking the box and pouring the costly ointment on Jesus feet then drying his feet with her hair? Judas thought that was a waste also?
What purpose could that serve do you suppose it was geared emotionally?
but thats just it brother.... it did have purpose.. it was pure reverential and all about Jesus worship......
How you could draw a parallel between this and Pentecostalism is not understood...... the video I displayed earlier shows people "out of control" of their own senses and their own bodies as if they are overtaken and posessed in such a way that they do not have the ability to control themselves...
Isn't this what happened to the young man who could not control his own body and kept throwing himself in the fire? He was just overtaken.. wasnt he? I just do not see the Spirit of God posessing someone to the point that the persons literal health is in peril of being hurt........ it just shows no purpose in worship.... rather than something you are giving to God.. this seems to be something that has been given to the shouter and they cant control it
Dr. Vaughn
07-17-2008, 09:20 AM
Shockamoo is a form of worship to Pentecostals just like lighting a candle and other sacraments are to Catholics. Each has been handed down from generation to generation as means to worship God.
Now brother... that nails it..... .and dare you try to touch it.... it is a sacred cow........
And yes in the minds of the Catholics their lighting of candles was indeed worship
Steve Epley
07-17-2008, 09:24 AM
but thats just it brother.... it did have purpose.. it was pure reverential and all about Jesus worship......
How you could draw a parallel between this and Pentecostalism is not understood...... the video I displayed earlier shows people "out of control" of their own senses and their own bodies as if they are overtaken and posessed in such a way that they do not have the ability to control themselves...
Isn't this what happened to the young man who could not control his own body and kept throwing himself in the fire? He was just overtaken.. wasnt he? I just do not see the Spirit of God posessing someone to the point that the persons literal health is in peril of being hurt........ it just shows no purpose in worship.... rather than something you are giving to God.. this seems to be something that has been given to the shouter and they cant control it
The woman to the NON-worshipper Judas was out of control he said ti was a waste aren'tyou saying the same thing????????????? In both instances the one with the ointment and the woman with the tears were displays of raw emotion that offended those who looked on. But worship is nOT meant for the onlookers it serves them NO purpose it is meant for the ONE being worshipped. I would hate to be in Judas & Michal's club of the onlookers that dispise the devotion poured on Jesus even if it seems too much for me.
Steve Epley
07-17-2008, 09:25 AM
Now brother... that nails it..... .and dare you try to touch it.... it is a sacred cow........
And yes in the minds of the Catholics their lighting of candles was indeed worship
Again they lit candles to worship where??????????????????????
David said to praise Him in lighting candles????????????????
He did say dance didn't he?
Again they lit candles to worship where??????????????????????
David said to praise Him in lighting candles????????????????
He did say dance didn't he?
Davidic worship doesn't count because it's in the OT, according to DV.
Steve Epley
07-17-2008, 09:56 AM
Davidic worship doesn't count because it's in the OT, according to DV.
Except when he wants to use instrumental music in worship.
Dr. Vaughn
07-17-2008, 10:01 AM
Again they lit candles to worship where??????????????????????
David said to praise Him in lighting candles????????????????
He did say dance didn't he?
as long as the dance is the one he instructed us with... the CHOREO
Dr. Vaughn
07-17-2008, 10:02 AM
Except when he wants to use instrumental music in worship.
I will also use dancing in worship... just not SHOUTING.... there is a huge difference
Dancing is commanded - uncontrolled jerking is never commanded
Steve Epley
07-17-2008, 10:04 AM
as long as the dance is the one he instructed us with... the CHOREO
Matt already punched a big enough hole in your argument to drive a smie through.
as long as the dance is the one he instructed us with... the CHOREO I am still waiting on those scriptures where God gave them dancing lessons.
Steve Epley
07-17-2008, 10:06 AM
I will also use dancing in worship... just not SHOUTING.... there is a huge difference
Dancing is commanded - uncontrolled jerking is never commanded
The High Priest shook and jerked it seems the sheaf at firstfruits which is Pentecost do you suppose if the High Priest did that in type did it happen in reality on Pentecost? They SAW something Acts 2:33.
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 10:39 AM
I am amazed that some seem to believe that "old time shouting" is out of order.
Do you believe in what the old timers called "shouting". I am talking about where the power of God falls in a service and folks start cutting a jig, or screaming? I am not talking about the Charismatic 2-step we see nowadays. But where one gets "lost" in the holy ghost. It used to be called "getting a blessing".
Uhhh, yeah. It's called expressive praise, hello people.
Dr. Vaughn
07-17-2008, 10:42 AM
Matt already punched a big enough hole in your argument to drive a smie through.
I challenge you on that statement Elder
he actually agreed that the dance of David was not our type of shouting... go back and read brother.. again I challenge you to explain where he tore up my argument.
StillStanding
07-17-2008, 10:42 AM
Here's how i see it:
Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
I believe there is true worship and false worship. Some are truthfully worshiping God, and others are putting on a show!
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
I believe we worship God in the following ways:
Prayer
Singing
Dancing
Praise
Giving
Preaching
Sacraments (e.g. communion)
Dr. Vaughn
07-17-2008, 10:43 AM
I am still waiting on those scriptures where God gave them dancing lessons.
RICO --- its not the instructions.. its the meaning of the word dance.. and it has nothing that resemebles SHOUTING OR JERKING... When David danced it was not SHOUTING ..... no Jewish dancing looks like shouting...
First of all there were no drums and David would have needed a good Apostolic BEAT to SHOUT...
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 10:44 AM
All Jewish dancing is known commonly as a circle dance.. yes whirling,, very controlled, very common,, very NON PENTECOSTAL
Of course it was very non-Pentecostal, they didn't have the HG silly.
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 10:46 AM
Why would I want to let people who have rejected Christ determine for me how I should dance before the Lord?
Good post Rico.
StillStanding
07-17-2008, 10:47 AM
Of course it was very non-Pentecostal, they didn't have the HG silly.
:ursofunny
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 10:49 AM
I think the following question would have been a more interesting thread title...
Does the NT support shouting in church?
Does the NT give us any examples of Pentecostal Shouting?
Does the NT give more instruction for church order or for pandemonium?
Does the NT prohibit expressive praise such as shouting? If so, please share the diluted doctrine so that we can blow it out of the proverbial saddle.
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 10:50 AM
Actually he was not in his Undies.. he was in a Linen Ephod which was religious robes rather than royal robes....... the linen ephod would have been worn under his royal garments and then his underclothes under the linen ephod.. so he was not in his Undies.. he was not dancing so uncontrollably that he was in his underwear... he ABASED himself to the common man and was seen in an Ephod in public rather than his Royal Robes....
I will never understand how the Pentecostals can make any more out of that experience then what actually happened
If you have the Holy Ghost, you would understand it.
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 10:53 AM
Oh absolutely,,, precise instruction in how they might approach him... all the way down to the fabric that they must wear.....
He then instructs them to come into his presence with CHOREO... a very controlled celebratory dance.....
Oh don't worry, God gives me the ability to dance in a controlled fashion before Him.:shockamoo
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 10:56 AM
I am not saying he didn't dance similar to what Jews danced like. But scripture indicates that he spun in a circular direction with all his might. It does NOT say he danced as the Jews dances. It also states that he leaped and skipped, and was beside himself, laughing and carrying on. Was this part of the Jewish dance also?? To leap and skip?
All I have is what the WORD states. And it states that David gave it his all while he was doing it.
But in all this, David is not an example to us, as he did not have the Holy Ghost. I am all for dancing and leaping, and giving God praise with ALL we got. But I also recognize that when the power of Pentecost falls in a service, folks get lost in the Spirit, and do shout. If you want to call it out of order, or say it is not biblical, that is fine with me. But I will take "out of order" over a dead dry religion that has a powerless holy spirit.
Preach!!!!
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 10:57 AM
Do you believe God is more pleased with fleshism or reverence?
In the NT which is our GUIDE for church order...... do we see any examples of displays of the flesh? Yes we do and Paul tried his best to correct them.
Paul tried to correct the way the church was worshipping God? Show me please.
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 10:59 AM
I do not indict those who are not as demostrative as myself in worship since worship is between God and the worshipper. However to disparage those who are demostrative is coming between the worshipper and his God.
Come on now preacher!
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 11:00 AM
We shout in Brazil.
I wonder who taught them that? LOL!
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 11:00 AM
Whom the son hath set free is free indeed.
I feel a shout comeing on.............GLORYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 11:04 AM
Its pure displays of emotional fleshism...... God receives NO GLORY
Does God recieve the Glory when we don't praise him? Jesus would have the rocks cry out (make a loud noise, shout) if we didn't.
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 11:06 AM
Like the woman breaking the box and pouring the costly ointment on Jesus feet then drying his feet with her hair? Judas thought that was a waste also?
What purpose could that serve do you suppose it was geared emotionally?
It was her flesh Elder.:ursofunny
RICO --- its not the instructions.. its the meaning of the word dance.. and it has nothing that resemebles SHOUTING OR JERKING... When David danced it was not SHOUTING ..... no Jewish dancing looks like shouting...
First of all there were no drums and David would have needed a good Apostolic BEAT to SHOUT...
Hogwash! I've done the huckabuck with no music playing whatsoever. A good drum beat is not a pre-requisite.
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 11:08 AM
The woman to the NON-worshipper Judas was out of control he said ti was a waste aren'tyou saying the same thing????????????? In both instances the one with the ointment and the woman with the tears were displays of raw emotion that offended those who looked on. But worship is nOT meant for the onlookers it serves them NO purpose it is meant for the ONE being worshipped. I would hate to be in Judas & Michal's club of the onlookers that dispise the devotion poured on Jesus even if it seems too much for me.
Wait a minute, I fell another shout coming on.....................GLORRRRRY!!!
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 11:12 AM
Having the Holy Ghost is a wonderful thing. It makes me wanna...................SHOUT!!!
Having the Holy Ghost is a wonderful thing. It makes me wanna...................SHOUT!!!
http://healthek.com/laundry/johnsondiversey-xw.jpg
Sassy
07-17-2008, 11:14 AM
By all the responses, there are many different ways that people worhsip. (None of them wrong) But there is no head knowledge that can explain a powerful move of the Holy Ghost, where many are at libery to worship God as they feel, shouting included. You just have to experience it! We are to worship God with all of our might! As you can see....I am for the SHOUT! :party
StillStanding
07-17-2008, 11:23 AM
Hogwash! I've done the huckabuck with no music playing whatsoever. A good drum beat is not a pre-requisite.
Yeah, but a good Hammond B3 with drums sure helps! :D :bliss:shockamoo
LUKE2447
07-17-2008, 11:24 AM
I am sorry but when that type of awesomeness of who God is gets ahold of you. DANCE, DANCE ,DANCE. When I think of his goodness and what he has done for me........ sorry got to get off the keyboard!
Sister Alvear
07-17-2008, 11:24 AM
I love worship...and I am sure God does too!
Yeah, but a good Hammond B3 with drums sure helps! :D :bliss:shockamoo
Sho nuff! :D :bliss
SavedLou
07-17-2008, 11:50 AM
I love a good ole-time shouting service! I do feel that it can be taken to the extreme but I've realized that my extreme and someone else's are often different. Example: Was anyone at La Campmeeting this year? The last night someone "holy rolled" around the altar and then began to do some sort of somersaults. Others went crazy shouting after they saw this but I personally felt like it crossed the line.
BTW, why do we call it shouting? When I first got in church that really confused me! :) However, I've always wanted someone to turn the old song "You know you make me wanna SHOUT.." into a church song. Wouldn't that be fun to sing?!
StillStanding
07-17-2008, 12:06 PM
......However, I've always wanted someone to turn the old song "You know you make me wanna SHOUT.." into a church song. Wouldn't that be fun to sing?!
I've danced with Mrs. Pianoman to that song before, and it wasn't in church! :D
SavedLou
07-17-2008, 12:31 PM
I've danced with Mrs. Pianoman to that song before, and it wasn't in church! :D
Scandalous! :aaa
StMark
07-17-2008, 12:34 PM
I am amazed that some seem to believe that "old time shouting" is out of order.
Do you believe in what the old timers called "shouting". I am talking about where the power of God falls in a service and folks start cutting a jig, or screaming? I am not talking about the Charismatic 2-step we see nowadays. But where one gets "lost" in the holy ghost. It used to be called "getting a blessing".
Matt,let me tell you where the rubber meets the road.
People that are against rejoicing in church are backslidden
in their hearts. They are cynical, smug and usually sit back
with their judgment caps on critiqing a move of the spirit.
I just talked to a friend who just came back from Africa and
their eyes were open about the church in America compared
to were God is moving overseas. Their worship is without
abandon. The Lord will humble America because of our self Pride.
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 01:18 PM
Matt,let me tell you where the rubber meets the road.
People that are against rejoicing in church are backslidden
in their hearts. They are cynical, smug and usually sit back
with their judgment caps on critiqing a move of the spirit.
I just talked to a friend who just came back from Africa and
their eyes were open about the church in America compared
to were God is moving overseas. Their worship is without
abandon. The Lord will humble America because of our self Pride.
Or maybe they haven't received the HG yet.:friend
StMark
07-17-2008, 01:26 PM
Or maybe they haven't received the HG yet.:friend
Or once had it but are in a backslidden state.
some attitudes if not overcome, eventually lead to apostacy
Dr. Vaughn
07-17-2008, 01:28 PM
The High Priest shook and jerked it seems the sheaf at firstfruits which is Pentecost do you suppose if the High Priest did that in type did it happen in reality on Pentecost? They SAW something Acts 2:33.
COuld you post the scripture for the priest jerking uncontrollably.. I would be interested in reading it
and at Pentecost they absolutely saw something.. they saw the language barrier being broken... and as a result of seieng that they said "how can this be" "this must be the result of some new wine" had NOTHING to do with uncontrollable shouting
Sassy
07-17-2008, 01:44 PM
Matt,let me tell you where the rubber meets the road.
People that are against rejoicing in church are backslidden
in their hearts. They are cynical, smug and usually sit back
with their judgment caps on critiqing a move of the spirit.
I just talked to a friend who just came back from Africa and
their eyes were open about the church in America compared
to were God is moving overseas. Their worship is without
abandon. The Lord will humble America because of our self Pride.
I agree with you StMark....America has waaayyyy to much! I want to always worship like when I first got the Holy Ghost. With much excitement. I didn't look for scripture or verse to back my experience. I trusted God with all my heart and knew that it was him I felt. But I realize that some.....just have never experienced a powerful move like we have and until they do will not understand our experience.
1Corinth2v4
07-17-2008, 01:51 PM
If crowds can shout praise, paint themselves yellow', jump for joy, run naked on the football fields for their team, my God, I can do it for God.
Don't limit how I can praise God! I'll roll on the floor, do a back flip, shout till my face turns blue, shake until all the lint falls off the clothes you're wearing.You weren't in hell's kitchen when my clothes were burning, before I was delivered!
If crowds can shout praise, paint themselves yellow', jump for joy, run naked on the football fields for their team, my God, I can do it for God.
Don't limit how I can praise God! I'll roll on the floor, do a back flip, shout till my face turns blue, shake until all the lint falls off the clothes you're wearing.You weren't in hell's kitchen when my clothes were burning, before I was delivered!
Please! Whatever you do, DO NOT run nekked in da church!! The resulting damage could be permanent!!! :D
Sassy
07-17-2008, 02:03 PM
[QUOTE=1Corinth2v4;533407]If crowds can shout praise, paint themselves yellow', jump for joy, run naked on the football fields for their team, my God, I can do it for God.
That's right....if we can get excited over our favorite team....God's done so much more for us! I try never to praise anything more than I am willing to praise him. Make sense?
1Corinth2v4
07-17-2008, 02:04 PM
Please! Whatever you do, DO NOT run nekked in da church!! The resulting damage could be permanent!!! :D
:D
1Corinth2v4
07-17-2008, 02:05 PM
[QUOTE=1Corinth2v4;533407]If crowds can shout praise, paint themselves yellow', jump for joy, run naked on the football fields for their team, my God, I can do it for God.
That's right....if we can get excited over our favorite team....God's done so much more for us! I try never to praise anything more than I am willing to praise him. Make sense?
Yes, well I'm not into sports anyway. I use to collect baseball cards when I was 13, that's about it.
Sassy
07-17-2008, 02:08 PM
[QUOTE=Sassy;533436]
Yes, well I'm not into sports anyway. I use to collect baseball cards when I was 13, that's about it.
Well...I like to play sports....but anymore... hey, is being on the computer a sport yet?:igotit
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 02:48 PM
Or once had it but are in a backslidden state.
some attitudes if not overcome, eventually lead to apostacy
Do you believe that the Lord is still married to the backslider?
Dr. Vaughn
07-17-2008, 02:52 PM
Do you believe that the Lord is still married to the backslider?
Of course he is......
berkeley
07-17-2008, 03:29 PM
I am all for "shouting" or jerking or whatever. However, I do not agree with the whole "I just lost control" or "I couldn't stop". I don't understand rolling on the floor... and I am not pro shout-in-tongues. That is against what Paul taught. Decency, order... ya know? And no, I am not saying "not to speak in tongues." But, do it biblically. Paul said to speak silently to yourself and to God. Meaning, speak softly. Library voices. :)
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 03:49 PM
Of course he is......
Thank you for your response doc, but I'm trying to ask our Brother Mark the question for a specific reason.
StMark
07-17-2008, 03:56 PM
Do you believe that the Lord is still married to the backslider?
never even heard of that- explain what you mean
Dr. Vaughn
07-17-2008, 03:57 PM
never even heard of that- explain what you mean
I hope he is kidding... I think he is
StMark
07-17-2008, 04:09 PM
I hope he is kidding... I think he is
nope- never heard of the Lord being married to a
backslider. maybe I've heard of it put a dif. way
and don't recognize it by that term
pelathais
07-17-2008, 04:21 PM
I am amazed that some seem to believe that "old time shouting" is out of order.
Do you believe in what the old timers called "shouting". I am talking about where the power of God falls in a service and folks start cutting a jig, or screaming? I am not talking about the Charismatic 2-step we see nowadays. But where one gets "lost" in the holy ghost. It used to be called "getting a blessing".
Do I "believe in it...?" Well, yes. But I also believe in a lake that burns with fire for all eternity. :ursofunny
I'm curious; how do you describe "old time...?" 1970s'? Was that old time? Of course "shouting" oneself insensible goes back to Old Testament times.
I remember when we used to judge the sanctity of another church by how their saints tore it up at campmeeting.
Have any of you ever shouted in church over being thankful for the wife He gave you? We got into a mini-testimony contest at this one church over thanking God for our wives. It was all done in good fun, mind you. Us men started braggin on our wives and what we loved so much about them and how thankful we were to the Lord for givin us such a good thing! This song made me think of that.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=VL9xOLpwI0I
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 04:33 PM
never even heard of that- explain what you mean
If you believe that the church is the bride of Christ, and if you believe that those who are filled w/the HG belong to the bride of Christ until his second coming, then why do you think that backsliders no longer have the HG? Are backsliders still considered part of the church until God's own judgement? I just know that God still works with those that are backslidden. (Of course, this is if you believe we as a church are married to Christ, if not, feel free to disreegard and I'm sorry if you don't agree) ;-)
StMark
07-17-2008, 04:35 PM
If you believe that the church is the bride of Christ, and if you believe that those who are filled w/the HG belong to the bride of Christ until his second coming, then why do you think that backsliders no longer have the HG? Are backsliders still considered part of the church until God's own judgement? I just know that God still works with those that are backslidden. (Of course, this is if you believe we as a church are married to Christ, if not, feel free to disreegard and I'm sorry if you don't agree) ;-)
That's a good question- Let me Brush up on that and find
out what our teaching is on this and get back to you
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 04:36 PM
I hope he is kidding... I think he is
Don't worry about whether or not I'm kidding until you can show conclusive biblical proof that we are not to shout. LOL! ;-)
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 04:37 PM
That's a good question- Let me Brush up on that and find
out what our teaching is on this and get back to you
Yeah right. Okay, I'll be waiting to find out.
StMark
07-17-2008, 04:38 PM
Yeah right. Okay, I'll be waiting to find out.
we'll have to wait til my brother gets back later on -he's out of
town
BrotherEastman
07-17-2008, 04:49 PM
we'll have to wait til my brother gets back later on -he's out of
town
The reason I made my comment to you was because I didn't know that a backslider could "lose" the Holy Ghost.
StillStanding
07-17-2008, 04:54 PM
For the record, I believe "shouting" is fine as long as it is done decently and in order. I just don't think that a Christian's walk with God should be judged by whether they do or don't shout! Different folks have different personalities and express themselves to God differently!
stmatthew
07-17-2008, 06:31 PM
For the record, I believe "shouting" is fine as long as it is done decently and in order. I just don't think that a Christian's walk with God should be judged by whether they do or don't shout! Different folks have different personalities and express themselves to God differently!
I do not believe it is a litmus test as to ones spirituality either.
BTW - when I was growing up, my mom was all the music our church had, so if she was shouting, there was no music. But that did not stop the holy ghost from falling, and often it fell during the preaching, and there was never a chance for her to get to the organ.
Mrs. LPW
07-17-2008, 06:33 PM
BAM BAM BAM
:nothingtoadd
Dr. Vaughn
07-17-2008, 07:33 PM
Don't worry about whether or not I'm kidding until you can show conclusive biblical proof that we are not to shout. LOL! ;-)
Actually, I will let you go first and givie biblical proof.. or examples of any shouting in the scriptures... bearing in mind that the word shout in scripture has nothing to do with body movement.. but rather loud vocal expression
I would love to see your scriptural examples of one PENTECOSTAL JERK and SHOUT in the scriptures... and then I will be happy to give my proof why we should not JERK UNCONTROLLABLY AND SHOUT
BrotherEastman
07-18-2008, 09:03 AM
Actually, I will let you go first and givie biblical proof.. or examples of any shouting in the scriptures... bearing in mind that the word shout in scripture has nothing to do with body movement.. but rather loud vocal expression
I would love to see your scriptural examples of one PENTECOSTAL JERK and SHOUT in the scriptures... and then I will be happy to give my proof why we should not JERK UNCONTROLLABLY AND SHOUT
I figured you would try to deflect, sorry doc, the burden of proof is upon you to prove that it isn't allright to shout, not me. You brought it up, so the challenge is upon you. I'll be waiting patiently, then I'll give you scripture to back my claim that it is okay to shout. If you cannot provide scritural text, then do not expect an answer from me.
*for the record, I personally don't "jerk" as you would say, but I've seen people under the influence of the Holy Ghost do strange things*
Dr. Vaughn
07-18-2008, 09:42 AM
I figured you would try to deflect, sorry doc, the burden of proof is upon you to prove that it isn't allright to shout, not me. You brought it up, so the challenge is upon you. I'll be waiting patiently, then I'll give you scripture to back my claim that it is okay to shout. If you cannot provide scritural text, then do not expect an answer from me.
*for the record, I personally don't "jerk" as you would say, but I've seen people under the influence of the Holy Ghost do strange things*
Wrong precious brother... I did'nt stat this thread.. nor did I begin a dialoge with you..... so it is I who patiently wait..
Lets begin with the 1st scripture in this arsenal
"Let all things be done in decency and order"
Does out of control jerking and shouting, rolling in the floor like like decency and Order to you?
Especially when they tell you afterwards..."Something just took over me... I couldn't help what I was doing"
Order is control..... so if you had no control,,, you had no ORDER......
We will begin with that one
Or what about Keeping your foot in the house of God......
Ok I promised only 1 to start with.. your turn
BrotherEastman
07-18-2008, 10:21 AM
Wrong precious brother... I did'nt stat this thread.. nor did I begin a dialoge with you..... so it is I who patiently wait..
Lets begin with the 1st scripture in this arsenal
"Let all things be done in decency and order"
Does out of control jerking and shouting, rolling in the floor like like decency and Order to you?
Especially when they tell you afterwards..."Something just took over me... I couldn't help what I was doing"
Order is control..... so if you had no control,,, you had no ORDER......
We will begin with that one
Or what about Keeping your foot in the house of God......
Ok I promised only 1 to start with.. your turn
Okay doc; If God is in control, then anyway one worships is NOT out of order; however, I will concede that there are those that may not allow the Spirit of God to work in thier lives but will perhaps put on a show. (but who am I, or who are you to determine this?) Now, since you TRIED to produce something for your argument, let me give you the real breakdown my friend. II Corinthians 3:17 (quoting the apostle that you quoted) "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". The "liberty" spoken here is the liberty that the Spirit of the Lord wills, not what we will. If the Holy Spirit is designed to work in our lives, who are we to say He will not give us the unction to act accordingly? So, I suppose your right about the "UNCONTROLLED" movements; however, God is in CONTROL even in our worship (that includes shouting).
BTW, Since it is your argument, please show a specific scripture to back your claim. There are 80% of us that would like to see it.:tease
Dr. Vaughn
07-18-2008, 01:03 PM
Okay doc; If God is in control, then anyway one worships is NOT out of order; however, I will concede that there are those that may not allow the Spirit of God to work in thier lives but will perhaps put on a show. (but who am I, or who are you to determine this?) Now, since you TRIED to produce something for your argument, let me give you the real breakdown my friend. II Corinthians 3:17 (quoting the apostle that you quoted) "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". The "liberty" spoken here is the liberty that the Spirit of the Lord wills, not what we will. If the Holy Spirit is designed to work in our lives, who are we to say He will not give us the unction to act accordingly? So, I suppose your right about the "UNCONTROLLED" movements; however, God is in CONTROL even in our worship (that includes shouting).
BTW, Since it is your argument, please show a specific scripture to back your claim. There are 80% of us that would like to see it.:tease
True Liberty is the ability to overcome your own emotions and submit to the teaching of Gods Word.....
True Liberty is the ability to overcome your own emotions and submit to the teaching of Gods Word.....
:lol God created man with emotions because He has emotions and now you wanna come along and say it's wrong to praise Him with our emotions. Hilarious! :lol
B_Kendrick
07-18-2008, 01:26 PM
RICO --- its not the instructions.. its the meaning of the word dance.. and it has nothing that resemebles SHOUTING OR JERKING... When David danced it was not SHOUTING ..... no Jewish dancing looks like shouting...
First of all there were no drums and David would have needed a good Apostolic BEAT to SHOUT...
Ah hah! I see your problem there doc... Thats what I would call emotions. I see people at a rock concert that might shout. That means you aren't shouting for God, but just to the beat of a drum!
Have you ever danced with all of your might? That means putting out a lot of energy right? That means the two-step wouldn't work for dancing with all of your might. He danced so hard, he came out of his clothes! Uh, sorry... Thats where I would use the term, SHOUTING!
BTW! I think the elder knows a whole lot more than you do, therefore I'll take his word for it! Whatever he says goes!
B_Kendrick
07-18-2008, 01:28 PM
Okay doc; If God is in control, then anyway one worships is NOT out of order; however, I will concede that there are those that may not allow the Spirit of God to work in thier lives but will perhaps put on a show. (but who am I, or who are you to determine this?) Now, since you TRIED to produce something for your argument, let me give you the real breakdown my friend. II Corinthians 3:17 (quoting the apostle that you quoted) "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". The "liberty" spoken here is the liberty that the Spirit of the Lord wills, not what we will. If the Holy Spirit is designed to work in our lives, who are we to say He will not give us the unction to act accordingly? So, I suppose your right about the "UNCONTROLLED" movements; however, God is in CONTROL even in our worship (that includes shouting).
BTW, Since it is your argument, please show a specific scripture to back your claim. There are 80% of us that would like to see it.:tease
Thats exactly right! People mistake putting on a show, for the spirit really touching somebody!
I voted yes, and it seems your initial assumption was incorrect from the poll!
Secondly, I believe in shouting unto God - not shouting because i'm pentecostal or I'm with pentecostals. I actually prefer to shout when I am alone rather than infront of others - and no because of my pride - BUT BECAUSE of my pride.
That's not to hard to figure out if you read it right! ;)
Dr. Vaughn
07-18-2008, 01:49 PM
Ah hah! I see your problem there doc... Thats what I would call emotions. I see people at a rock concert that might shout. That means you aren't shouting for God, but just to the beat of a drum!
Have you ever danced with all of your might? That means putting out a lot of energy right? That means the two-step wouldn't work for dancing with all of your might. He danced so hard, he came out of his clothes! Uh, sorry... Thats where I would use the term, SHOUTING!
BTW! I think the elder knows a whole lot more than you do, therefore I'll take his word for it! Whatever he says goes!
Glad to hear of your faith in the Elder......
I have danced with all my might twice a year in Jerusalem with the Jewish believers... and trust me their dancing is ten times more intense than Pentecostals.. but its CONTROLLED... its not jerking, its not screaming uncontrollably,, its not voodooish... is not rolling in floors.. its not running into walls.... its a controlled and yet expressive celebration... it gives honor to God rather than attention to man
BrotherEastman
07-18-2008, 01:54 PM
True Liberty is the ability to overcome your own emotions and submit to the teaching of Gods Word.....
So, since God created within man the ability to have emotions; are you suggesting that He will not have a play in our emotions when we yield to Him? Are you trying to suggest that I cannot shout because of the excitement I feel towards a God who has delivered me from sin? Or the God who saved me from certain death? Or the God who blessed me when thier didn't seem to be a way out of no way? Or the God who fills the universe with all His wonders who visits little ole me? Or the God who gave me the most precious gift of all, His Spirit?! You want me to be silent? Excuse me, but when a preacher preaches about God, you can sit around like a bump on a pickle if you want, but I'm gonna shout. Call me a sinner if you want, but when I think of His goodness and all He has done for me, I'm gonna shout! I think Shirley Ceasar said it best, HOLD MY MULE!!!!
Michlow
07-18-2008, 01:55 PM
I have an issue with the way the question is worded.
Do I believe it exists? Yes.
But whether or not I think it is right, or necessary, is a whole nother ball game.
BrotherEastman
07-18-2008, 01:56 PM
:lol God created man with emotions because He has emotions and now you wanna come along and say it's wrong to praise Him with our emotions. Hilarious! :lol
Liberty don't mean that Rico, God wants to stiffle our emotions don't ya know?
B_Kendrick
07-18-2008, 02:02 PM
Glad to hear of your faith in the Elder......
I have danced with all my might twice a year in Jerusalem with the Jewish believers... and trust me their dancing is ten times more intense than Pentecostals.. but its CONTROLLED... its not jerking, its not screaming uncontrollably,, its not voodooish... is not rolling in floors.. its not running into walls.... its a controlled and yet expressive celebration... it gives honor to God rather than attention to man
So you believe in choreographed (sp?) dancing? Now that sounds like that is more for show than a true shout! Hey doc, lets say that right now, your best friend is to come up to you and give you a million dollars, what would you do? I don't know about you, but i'd act like the biggest fool around! I would run, jump, shout, scream, holler, not caring who's around, or who saw me... and none of it choreographed! (sp?) Why? Because of the joy that I fell at what I have, and who gave it to me! Now, the Holy Ghost is the greatest thing this side of Heaven, right? So when you think about what God has done for you and where he has brought me from, I feel a shout coming on!
So you believe in choreographed (sp?) dancing? Now that sounds like that is more for show than a true shout! Hey doc, lets say that right now, your best friend is to come up to you and give you a million dollars, what would you do? I don't know about you, but i'd act like the biggest fool around! I would run, jump, shout, scream, holler, not caring who's around, or who saw me... and none of it choreographed! (sp?) Why? Because of the joy that I fell at what I have, and who gave it to me! Now, the Holy Ghost is the greatest thing this side of Heaven, right? So when you think about what God has done for you and where he has brought me from, I feel a shout coming on!
I'd do all that stuff you said, and then make a beeline straight for the FORD dealership!!! :D
Dr. Vaughn
07-18-2008, 02:20 PM
Bro. Eastman... you are preaching this Sunday about God... you have three women in the church who begin running around the sanctuary... then they do a few flip flops... one walks the pews... the other is screaming uncontrollably... and there is a SINNER in your midst who needs a Saviour... now those women are just using their emotions to Praise God and according to you.. thats in order because this is supposedly GOD making them do this.......
God is in the stillness... Remember the Still Small Voice.. God was not in the thunder and lightning.... He loves to be reverenced.... He's not looking for a Party as much as he is reverence
Dr. Vaughn
07-18-2008, 02:22 PM
So you believe in choreographed (sp?) dancing? Now that sounds like that is more for show than a true shout! Hey doc, lets say that right now, your best friend is to come up to you and give you a million dollars, what would you do? I don't know about you, but i'd act like the biggest fool around! I would run, jump, shout, scream, holler, not caring who's around, or who saw me... and none of it choreographed! (sp?) Why? Because of the joy that I fell at what I have, and who gave it to me! Now, the Holy Ghost is the greatest thing this side of Heaven, right? So when you think about what God has done for you and where he has brought me from, I feel a shout coming on!
Actually... maybe I'm just not like you... I would never lose my senses... I would express my gratitude and go straight to the bank
dizzyde
07-18-2008, 02:23 PM
I'd do all that stuff you said, and then make a beeline straight for the FORD dealership!!! :D
:thumbsup
Bro. Eastman... you are preaching this Sunday about God... you have three women in the church who begin running around the sanctuary... then they do a few flip flops... one walks the pews... the other is screaming uncontrollably... and there is a SINNER in your midst who needs a Saviour... now those women are just using their emotions to Praise God and according to you.. thats in order because this is supposedly GOD making them do this.......
God is in the stillness... Remember the Still Small Voice.. God was not in the thunder and lightning.... He loves to be reverenced.... He's not looking for a Party as much as he is reverence
At first the sinner woman doesn't know what to think about all these people running, jumping, and having a good time. Then she starts to wonder what it is they are so excited about. She just has to know what it is that makes these people get so happy about their God. Then she decides that, whatever it is these people have she definitely wants, and another name is added to the Book of Life. I just love a happy ending. Don't you?
:thumbsup
I'd hafta have somethin nice to go pay my tithes in ya know. :D The preacher'd be happy to see my hairy face that day!!! :lol
dizzyde
07-18-2008, 02:28 PM
I'd hafta have somethin nice to go pay my tithes in ya know. :D The preacher'd be happy to see my hairy face that day!!! :lol
That is like my dad always said if someone in the church were to play the lottery and win, he would say, just pay your tithes and give your offering and don't tell me where it came from!!! :ursofunny
That is like my dad always said if someone in the church were to play the lottery and win, he would say, just pay your tithes and give your offering and don't tell me where it came from!!! :ursofunny
:lol I had one pastor who always used to say, "The Devil's had that money long enough!" :lol
BrotherEastman
07-18-2008, 02:35 PM
Bro. Eastman... you are preaching this Sunday about God... you have three women in the church who begin running around the sanctuary... then they do a few flip flops... one walks the pews... the other is screaming uncontrollably... and there is a SINNER in your midst who needs a Saviour... now those women are just using their emotions to Praise God and according to you.. thats in order because this is supposedly GOD making them do this.......
God is in the stillness... Remember the Still Small Voice.. God was not in the thunder and lightning.... He loves to be reverenced.... He's not looking for a Party as much as he is reverence
Doc, this is a hypothetical that you are giving (in which I cannot recall in my years as a Pentecostal that this scenario you've given has actually happened in a way that the sinner would not be able to recieve God's word). I will say that when the gifts of the Spirit are in operation, and when the Holy Ghost is working in a church service, God is the one who is in control. Besides, the sinner that you would be referring to needs to see this in order to know that God's presence is real. Can you describe God's presence when He deals with a congregation? Probably not as effective as God could, thus the sinner needs to be there.
Wow! 80% are in favor of shouting. I believe it's time to SHOCKAMOO!!! :bliss:yahoo:rooting:cheer:bliss:party:happydance :dancing:amen:shockamoo
Rhoni
07-18-2008, 02:38 PM
It's funny watching children imitate the "jigs" people do in church. :lol
My children grew up playing"funeral". We Pastored a church that had many elderly people in it and we had funerals every month...One would preach, one would be the dead body on the altar, and one would play and one would sing...the rest would sit and cry...it was a hoot!
My children grew up playing"funeral". We Pastored a church that had many elderly people in it and we had funerals every month...One would preach, one would be the dead body on the altar, and one would play and one would sing...the rest would sit and cry...it was a hoot!
Dearly Beloved, we are gathered here today to lay Sister Suzie to rest. Be still Suzie! Yer supposed to be dead! :D
Rhoni
07-18-2008, 02:41 PM
Dearly Beloved, we are gathered here today to lay Sister Suzie to rest. Be still Suzie! Yer supposed to be dead! :D
AbsolutelY:ursofunny
BrotherEastman
07-18-2008, 02:54 PM
Doctor Vaughn, Do you suppose those who were in the upper room were "out of order"? They appeared to be drunk (so, I guess they would've appeared that way); however, they weren't drunk as were supposed, but were loud enough to seam that way because GOD was in control.
Dr. Vaughn
07-18-2008, 04:09 PM
At first the sinner woman doesn't know what to think about all these people running, jumping, and having a good time. Then she starts to wonder what it is they are so excited about. She just has to know what it is that makes these people get so happy about their God. Then she decides that, whatever it is these people have she definitely wants, and another name is added to the Book of Life. I just love a happy ending. Don't you?
Paul actually said she would think you were a bunch of crazy people.. he used the harder word MAD
Dr. Vaughn
07-18-2008, 04:10 PM
Doc, this is a hypothetical that you are giving (in which I cannot recall in my years as a Pentecostal that this scenario you've given has actually happened in a way that the sinner would not be able to recieve God's word). I will say that when the gifts of the Spirit are in operation, and when the Holy Ghost is working in a church service, God is the one who is in control. Besides, the sinner that you would be referring to needs to see this in order to know that God's presence is real. Can you describe God's presence when He deals with a congregation? Probably not as effective as God could, thus the sinner needs to be there.
Brother.. did you just say the SINNER NEEDS TO SEE THIS MADNESS? Paul say they will think you guys are nuts or mad!!!!
B_Kendrick
07-18-2008, 04:14 PM
Bro. Eastman... you are preaching this Sunday about God... you have three women in the church who begin running around the sanctuary... then they do a few flip flops... one walks the pews... the other is screaming uncontrollably... and there is a SINNER in your midst who needs a Saviour... now those women are just using their emotions to Praise God and according to you.. thats in order because this is supposedly GOD making them do this.......
God is in the stillness... Remember the Still Small Voice.. God was not in the thunder and lightning.... He loves to be reverenced.... He's not looking for a Party as much as he is reverence
If they are really doing it because they feel the power of God, then EVERYBODY would feel the same power that those ladies felt. But maybe you've never been in a service where the power of God falls on everybody.
BrotherEastman
07-18-2008, 04:15 PM
Paul actually said she would think you were a bunch of crazy people.. he used the harder word MAD
So, Paul said that the hypothetical woman would think that we were a bunch of crazy people? Really? Where?
Dr. Vaughn
07-18-2008, 04:15 PM
Doctor Vaughn, Do you suppose those who were in the upper room were "out of order"? They appeared to be drunk (so, I guess they would've appeared that way); however, they weren't drunk as were supposed, but were loud enough to seam that way because GOD was in control.
Brother Eastman.. I have quoted the scriptures on here MANY times to PROVE EMPHATICALLY that the drunk statement has NOTHING to do with their worship or any of their behavior it had to do with their ability to speak in foreign languages...... and upon hearing this the onlookers said "What causes them to do this" and then others responded "this must be some new wine"
It soooo sad to me that Pentecostal try to make this more than it was..... not ONE MENTION of their PRAISE or WORSHIP....... never one record of anyone shouting or dancing and yet you Pentecostal try to recreate that whole scene to fir your paradigm......
No one was ACTING DRUNK....... these onlookers attributed their ability to break the language barrier as possibly some kind of new wine that no one had heard of... they couldnt think of anything else to attribute it to... it would be like if we heard something happening among a group of people that we could not explain ...... we would say "must be some new drug or something"
Here's a challenge... read the Story of Pentecost and show me ONE SCRIPTURE where they were doing the Pentecostal jerk and roll.... show my anything that compares to that
Dr. Vaughn
07-18-2008, 04:16 PM
So, Paul said that the hypothetical woman would think that we were a bunch of crazy people? Really? Where?
Bro. Eastman, surely you are more versed in scripture to not know what I'm referring to.. When Paul was setting the church in order and he then explains to them the reason he is calling for more order in the church...lest a visitor would walk in and think you were MAD or CRAZY
Dr. Vaughn
07-18-2008, 04:17 PM
If they are really doing it because they feel the power of God, then EVERYBODY would feel the same power that those ladies felt. But maybe you've never been in a service where the power of God falls on everybody.
Grew up in them... only problem is I dont find ONE REFERENCE in the NT of this ever happening.. the NT is my guide for church order not personal feelings
BrotherEastman
07-18-2008, 04:18 PM
Brother.. did you just say the SINNER NEEDS TO SEE THIS MADNESS? Paul say they will think you guys are nuts or mad!!!!
Doc, are you Pentecostal? If you suggest that I'm mad, you need to show me from scripture that I am. Unless you have experienced the Holy Ghost the way I have, then I'd be careful of how you judge.
Paul actually said she would think you were a bunch of crazy people.. he used the harder word MAD
MAD. That's how I would describe around 80% of the things I've seen you post. But, to each his own, so.................
If they are really doing it because they feel the power of God, then EVERYBODY would feel the same power that those ladies felt. But maybe you've never been in a service where the power of God falls on everybody.
My question is if he'd even be able to recognize it as such.
BrotherEastman
07-18-2008, 04:24 PM
Brother Eastman.. I have quoted the scriptures on here MANY times to PROVE EMPHATICALLY that the drunk statement has NOTHING to do with their worship or any of their behavior it had to do with their ability to speak in foreign languages...... and upon hearing this the onlookers said "What causes them to do this" and then others responded "this must be some new wine"
It soooo sad to me that Pentecostal try to make this more than it was..... not ONE MENTION of their PRAISE or WORSHIP....... never one record of anyone shouting or dancing and yet you Pentecostal try to recreate that whole scene to fir your paradigm......
No one was ACTING DRUNK....... these onlookers attributed their ability to break the language barrier as possibly some kind of new wine that no one had heard of... they couldnt think of anything else to attribute it to... it would be like if we heard something happening among a group of people that we could not explain ...... we would say "must be some new drug or something"
Here's a challenge... read the Story of Pentecost and show me ONE SCRIPTURE where they were doing the Pentecostal jerk and roll.... show my anything that compares to that
The challenge once again falls upon you because I have experienced what I have experienced, and unless you've been there you will not be able to convince the 81% of us that you are right. I've given you a few scriptures, you have yet to prove your case with any scripture. If we are MAD as you suppose, then show us the error of our ways, if not, drop out of the conversation until you can give us something that is substantial.
BrotherEastman
07-18-2008, 08:13 PM
MAD. That's how I would describe around 80% of the things I've seen you post. But, to each his own, so.................
The problem lies in the fact that he is trying to use I Corinthians 14 for his argument, but I wonder if he knows he is taking his text out of context. Herein lies the problem, he has an argument, but I have an experience; my experience trumps his argument because he hasn't adequately shown or explained his texts, nor do I think he is capable of doing so.
stmatthew
07-18-2008, 09:18 PM
Brother Eastman.. I have quoted the scriptures on here MANY times to PROVE EMPHATICALLY that the drunk statement has NOTHING to do with their worship or any of their behavior it had to do with their ability to speak in foreign languages...... and upon hearing this the onlookers said "What causes them to do this" and then others responded "this must be some new wine"
It soooo sad to me that Pentecostal try to make this more than it was..... not ONE MENTION of their PRAISE or WORSHIP....... never one record of anyone shouting or dancing and yet you Pentecostal try to recreate that whole scene to fir your paradigm......
No one was ACTING DRUNK....... these onlookers attributed their ability to break the language barrier as possibly some kind of new wine that no one had heard of... they couldnt think of anything else to attribute it to... it would be like if we heard something happening among a group of people that we could not explain ...... we would say "must be some new drug or something"
Here's a challenge... read the Story of Pentecost and show me ONE SCRIPTURE where they were doing the Pentecostal jerk and roll.... show my anything that compares to that
Amazing! You have PROVEN NOTHING. You have only given YOUR OPINION.
I have encountered many Mexicans that speak English as good as I do, and they were never once mistaken for drunk. Have met Chinese folks that spoke their own language around me. I Did not mistake them for drunk. But I did grow up in a church that was in the city of Tamp where many times a drunk would come into the service to find a back seat he could sit down in. There was no mistaken that they were drunk, as they staggered in.
So I would suggest that your interpretation is not correct, as there is not any reason for anyone to believe that someone that either spoke my language, or spoke their native tongue, would be mistaken for drunk or intoxicated. Your reasoning is unreasonable. You are simply fooling yourself if you think there is any logic to your argument.
BrotherEastman
07-18-2008, 09:57 PM
Amazing! You have PROVEN NOTHING. You have only given YOUR OPINION.
I have encountered many Mexicans that speak English as good as I do, and they were never once mistaken for drunk. Have met Chinese folks that spoke their own language around me. I Did not mistake them for drunk. But I did grow up in a church that was in the city of Tamp where many times a drunk would come into the service to find a back seat he could sit down in. There was no mistaken that they were drunk, as they staggered in.
So I would suggest that your interpretation is not correct, as there is not any reason for anyone to believe that someone that either spoke my language, or spoke their native tongue, would be mistaken for drunk or intoxicated. Your reasoning is unreasonable. You are simply fooling yourself if you think there is any logic to your argument.
I come to the realization that the good doctor can do nothing more other than give his opinion. LOL!
I am amazed that some seem to believe that "old time shouting" is out of order.
Do you believe in what the old timers called "shouting". I am talking about where the power of God falls in a service and folks start cutting a jig, or screaming? I am not talking about the Charismatic 2-step we see nowadays. But where one gets "lost" in the holy ghost. It used to be called "getting a blessing".
The problem is that most so-called pentecostals today don't know the Lord well enough to worship "in spirit and in truth".
(Joh 4:24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
The Lord is not able to take over any part of their lives.
stmatthew
07-18-2008, 11:10 PM
The problem is that most so-called pentecostals today don't know the Lord well enough to worship "in spirit and in truth".
(Joh 4:24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
The Lord is not able to take over any part of their lives.
That is why we are called to yield ourselves to him. (Rom 6)
That is why we are called to yield ourselves to him. (Rom 6)
People are really mixed up. They think that their own personal will is the will of God.
I don't think that will fly.
stmatthew
07-18-2008, 11:19 PM
People are really mixed up. They think that their own personal will is the will of God.
I don't think that will fly.
no arguments here.
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 01:21 AM
The challenge once again falls upon you because I have experienced what I have experienced, and unless you've been there you will not be able to convince the 81% of us that you are right. I've given you a few scriptures, you have yet to prove your case with any scripture. If we are MAD as you suppose, then show us the error of our ways, if not, drop out of the conversation until you can give us something that is substantial.
Oh Brother.. correction.. what few scriptures have you given me?
Tell you what.. list them in a row in your reply,, it will be interesting to see
I actually gave two scriptures to your NONE
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 01:22 AM
The problem lies in the fact that he is trying to use I Corinthians 14 for his argument, but I wonder if he knows he is taking his text out of context. Herein lies the problem, he has an argument, but I have an experience; my experience trumps his argument because he hasn't adequately shown or explained his texts, nor do I think he is capable of doing so.
Yes, and the Polygamist use the same argument.. they have had an experience from God,, a command to be in Polygamy.. of course this command is not in the word its just been their experience....
ANY EXPERIENCE that does not line up with scripture is just that AN EXPERIENCE
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 01:26 AM
Amazing! You have PROVEN NOTHING. You have only given YOUR OPINION.
I have encountered many Mexicans that speak English as good as I do, and they were never once mistaken for drunk. Have met Chinese folks that spoke their own language around me. I Did not mistake them for drunk. But I did grow up in a church that was in the city of Tamp where many times a drunk would come into the service to find a back seat he could sit down in. There was no mistaken that they were drunk, as they staggered in.
So I would suggest that your interpretation is not correct, as there is not any reason for anyone to believe that someone that either spoke my language, or spoke their native tongue, would be mistaken for drunk or intoxicated. Your reasoning is unreasonable. You are simply fooling yourself if you think there is any logic to your argument.
ST MATT... it is not just my opinion,,, some of the greatest denominations in history agree with me.. .along with Spurgeon, Moody and on and on the list goes.. you act like my reasoning stands alone and it DOES NOT.....
I tell you what ST MARK.. in context you put the drunk scriptures up here along with the 5 or 6 before it and lets see what the drunk statement was in reference to.... peoples worship or SPEAKING IN TONGUES........ lets put the rubber on the road brother.... when its over the facts will speak for themselves.. the DRUNK STATEMENT had NOTHING TO DO with emotions.... for lack of knowing what was going on....... :Man, this must be some new wine,,, something has caused them to speak to us in our langauges.. what could it be"""""""" had NOTHING to do with the fact they say people doing the PENTECOSTAL JERK or the PENTECOSTAL RUNNINg... I DARE YOU TO PROVE IT.. prove to the reader that they were in reference to the peoples PRAISE and WORSHIP........
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 01:28 AM
That is why we are called to yield ourselves to him. (Rom 6)
Yes, yield to God.. so he can Spin you like a top... run you like a rag doll.... throw you in the floor.. give you convulsions.... make you stomp your shoes off.....
Funny God never did any of these things in his WORD.. but hey they have an experience... so it doesn't matter what the WORD says
StMark
07-19-2008, 01:31 AM
ST MATT... it is not just my opinion,,, some of the greatest denominations in history agree with me.. .along with Spurgeon, Moody and on and on the list goes.. you act like my reasoning stands alone and it DOES NOT.....
I tell you what ST MARK.. in context you put the drunk scriptures up here along with the 5 or 6 before it and lets see what the drunk statement was in reference to.... peoples worship or SPEAKING IN TONGUES........ lets put the rubber on the road brother.... when its over the facts will speak for themselves.. the DRUNK STATEMENT had NOTHING TO DO with emotions.... for lack of knowing what was going on....... :Man, this must be some new wine,,, something has caused them to speak to us in our langauges.. what could it be"""""""" had NOTHING to do with the fact they say people doing the PENTECOSTAL JERK or the PENTECOSTAL RUNNINg... I DARE YOU TO PROVE IT.. prove to the reader that they were in reference to the peoples PRAISE and WORSHIP........
WHAAAAAT??? I didn't say anything about Drunks on
this thread! You are getting me mixed up with someone
else I've hardly gotten into this thread except for a few
post.
EASTMAM, I haven't had time to get with my brother about
that question you asked. been busy working on my taxes ( yes in
July lol). Look, if folks don't wanna believe in liberty in worship
and want to control the atmosphere and the people and have
dead church, let 'em be. plain and simple as that
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 01:45 AM
WHAAAAAT??? I didn't say anything about Drunks on
this thread! You are getting me mixed up with someone
else I've hardly gotten into this thread except for a few
post.
EASTMAM, I haven't had time to get with my brother about
that question you asked. been busy working on my taxes ( yes in
July lol). Look, if folks don't wanna believe in liberty in worship
and want to control the atmosphere and the people and have
dead church, let 'em be. plain and simple as that
What you call dead, some folks call reverence......
What you call plain and simple... some folks call respect for the house of God and keeping their foot in the house of God
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 01:47 AM
WHAAAAAT??? I didn't say anything about Drunks on
this thread! You are getting me mixed up with someone
else I've hardly gotten into this thread except for a few
post.
EASTMAM, I haven't had time to get with my brother about
that question you asked. been busy working on my taxes ( yes in
July lol). Look, if folks don't wanna believe in liberty in worship
and want to control the atmosphere and the people and have
dead church, let 'em be. plain and simple as that
Oh no brother.. can't let you slide out of that one... you said when I responded to Eastman about him trying to use the "not drunk as you suppose" crutch... when I told him that I have proven by the scriptures MANY TIMES that the drunk statement had NOTHING to do with emotional pentecostal outburst...
your response was - AMAZING, YOU HAVE PROVEN NOTHING... so yes you were in on the DRUNK argument
So again I challenge you.. prove to me that when the onlookers mentioned their being drunk... prove with the verses that they were referring to something beside their ability to break the language barrier
StMark
07-19-2008, 01:48 AM
What you call dead, some folks call reverence......
What you call plain and simple... some folks call respect for the house of God and keeping their foot in the house of God
I believe in respect and reverance. Rejocing in the Lord
doesn't diminish either of those. There's a time and
place for all things.
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 02:29 AM
I believe in respect and reverance. Rejocing in the Lord
doesn't diminish either of those. There's a time and
place for all things.
Rejoicing in the Lord is wonderful,, I do it every service.....
Jerking uncontrollably... screaming wildley.. .shouting with no control,,,,, are not example of Rejoicing.. their examples of "being overtaken"
BrotherEastman
07-19-2008, 07:57 AM
Oh Brother.. correction.. what few scriptures have you given me?
Tell you what.. list them in a row in your reply,, it will be interesting to see
I actually gave two scriptures to your NONE
You haven't given me any scriptures doc, where have you posted a scripture to me? I find it amazing that you call yourself a doctor and yet you seem to lack any sensibilities when it comes to experience. Are you denying the Holy Ghost? Have you even experienced the Holy Ghost? So far your arguments are falling on deaf ears to the 80% of the people here who have experience. Do you put us in hell for shouting, dancing, and praising God the way we do? If not, you don't have an argument to stand on, because quite frankly you are twisting scripture to suit you. I will say it again, my experience and my adoration for God trumps your argument. The only thing I see that comes from you is your contempt for the Pentecostal experience, which to me is quite judgemental on your part. Carry on Doctor........er umm.... MR. Vaughn.
BrotherEastman
07-19-2008, 08:15 AM
ST MATT... it is not just my opinion,,, some of the greatest denominations in history agree with me.. .along with Spurgeon, Moody and on and on the list goes.. you act like my reasoning stands alone and it DOES NOT.....
I tell you what ST MARK.. in context you put the drunk scriptures up here along with the 5 or 6 before it and lets see what the drunk statement was in reference to.... peoples worship or SPEAKING IN TONGUES........ lets put the rubber on the road brother.... when its over the facts will speak for themselves.. the DRUNK STATEMENT had NOTHING TO DO with emotions.... for lack of knowing what was going on....... :Man, this must be some new wine,,, something has caused them to speak to us in our langauges.. what could it be"""""""" had NOTHING to do with the fact they say people doing the PENTECOSTAL JERK or the PENTECOSTAL RUNNINg... I DARE YOU TO PROVE IT.. prove to the reader that they were in reference to the peoples PRAISE and WORSHIP........
That's your problem Mr. Vaughn, some of the greatest denominations that agree with you do not have the Holy Ghost, nor did they teach or preach that anyone should get the Holy Ghost because they did not EXPERIENCE the Holy Ghost according to the book of Acts. Spurgeon, Moody, and the others that you mention do not have the necessary credibilty to say that we as Pentecostals are wrong in the way we worship. Your issue seems to be because the "Pentecostals" shout and worship in such an exuberant way, that we are growing much faster than your dead dry boring churches. I personally have nothing against the way you worship; however, neither do I have issue with the way Pentecostals worship. I understand that you are at a different level of worship, and because you continue to fail in proving scripturally that we are wrong, perhaps you should stir the pot somewhere else.:tease
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 08:17 AM
So,,, you will not list the scriptures that you DECLARE you have given to me?
Thanks
BrotherEastman
07-19-2008, 08:18 AM
WHAAAAAT??? I didn't say anything about Drunks on
this thread! You are getting me mixed up with someone
else I've hardly gotten into this thread except for a few
post.
EASTMAM, I haven't had time to get with my brother about
that question you asked. been busy working on my taxes ( yes in
July lol). Look, if folks don't wanna believe in liberty in worship
and want to control the atmosphere and the people and have
dead church, let 'em be. plain and simple as that
Mark, you can't have your own opinion? Why do you need your Brother?:whistle
BrotherEastman
07-19-2008, 08:20 AM
ST MATT... it is not just my opinion,,, some of the greatest denominations in history agree with me.. .along with Spurgeon, Moody and on and on the list goes.. you act like my reasoning stands alone and it DOES NOT.....
I tell you what ST MARK.. in context you put the drunk scriptures up here along with the 5 or 6 before it and lets see what the drunk statement was in reference to.... peoples worship or SPEAKING IN TONGUES........ lets put the rubber on the road brother.... when its over the facts will speak for themselves.. the DRUNK STATEMENT had NOTHING TO DO with emotions.... for lack of knowing what was going on....... :Man, this must be some new wine,,, something has caused them to speak to us in our langauges.. what could it be"""""""" had NOTHING to do with the fact they say people doing the PENTECOSTAL JERK or the PENTECOSTAL RUNNINg... I DARE YOU TO PROVE IT.. prove to the reader that they were in reference to the peoples PRAISE and WORSHIP........
Actually it was StMatthew that made that comment to you Mr. Vaughn, not StMark. Get it straight Sir.:snapout
BrotherEastman
07-19-2008, 08:21 AM
Yes, yield to God.. so he can Spin you like a top... run you like a rag doll.... throw you in the floor.. give you convulsions.... make you stomp your shoes off.....
Funny God never did any of these things in his WORD.. but hey they have an experience... so it doesn't matter what the WORD says
You haven't given any WORD.:snapout
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 08:23 AM
You haven't given any WORD.:snapout
Yes I know.. I was waiting on your list.. that you promised before my rebuttal... it is sort of how the art of debate is carried out
BrotherEastman
07-19-2008, 08:25 AM
Oh no brother.. can't let you slide out of that one... you said when I responded to Eastman about him trying to use the "not drunk as you suppose" crutch... when I told him that I have proven by the scriptures MANY TIMES that the drunk statement had NOTHING to do with emotional pentecostal outburst...
your response was - AMAZING, YOU HAVE PROVEN NOTHING... so yes you were in on the DRUNK argument
So again I challenge you.. prove to me that when the onlookers mentioned their being drunk... prove with the verses that they were referring to something beside their ability to break the language barrier
It's amazing to me that you cannot tell the difference between StMark and StMatthew. Go back and read what they said. I'll tell you what's even more amazing, you call yourself a Doctor, and you have yet to provide an argument based upon scripture Mr. Vaughn.
BrotherEastman
07-19-2008, 08:26 AM
I believe in respect and reverance. Rejocing in the Lord
doesn't diminish either of those. There's a time and
place for all things.
Amen.
BrotherEastman
07-19-2008, 08:28 AM
So,,, you will not list the scriptures that you DECLARE you have given to me?
Thanks:bigbaby:ursofunny
OneAccord
07-19-2008, 08:28 AM
Yes. Yes, I do believe in Pentecostal shouting.
BrotherEastman
07-19-2008, 08:29 AM
Yes I know.. I was waiting on your list.. that you promised before my rebuttal... it is sort of how the art of debate is carried out
Now I suppose you cannot read?
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 08:31 AM
It's amazing to me that you cannot tell the difference between StMark and StMatthew. Go back and read what they said. I'll tell you what's even more amazing, you call yourself a Doctor, and you have yet to provide an argument based upon scripture Mr. Vaughn.
Is the pot calling the kettle black?
Your list has not yet come forward.. .that would be a list of scriptures you told me you were going to provide that proves Pentecostal Shouting and Jerking is scriptural... following the order of debate... I will gladly post in kind...
Your short responses.. your hit and runs will not cause it to go away..... we all wait for your exhaustive scriptures and then I will GLADLY respond
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 08:31 AM
Now I suppose you cannot read?
Oh Im so sorry brother,,, perhaps I overlooked them.. point me to the thread of your scriptural support.
BrotherEastman
07-19-2008, 08:35 AM
Is the pot calling the kettle black?
Your list has not yet come forward.. .that would be a list of scriptures you told me you were going to provide that proves Pentecostal Shouting and Jerking is scriptural... following the order of debate... I will gladly post in kind...
Your short responses.. your hit and runs will not cause it to go away..... we all wait for your exhaustive scriptures and then I will GLADLY respond
Wrong again, I actually gave a scripture, you didn't, when you do I will show how that you have taken the scripture out of context Mr. Vaughn. I think it is pretty sad that I found the scripture that you allude to, but you yourself didn't give it. Besides you alluding to a scripture doesn't mean that you actually gave it.:snapout
RandyWayne
07-19-2008, 08:39 AM
This is one of those polls where I don't agree with the premise of the question. I answered "No, it's out of order" simply because I don't believe in it as a matter of doctrine, meaning "One must do this".
Do I believe it is always out of order? Of course not, but neither do I believe it is something someone must do or if you don't do it regularly, your less spiritual than the person who wears out their voice box every service.
My view on what SOME "Pentecostal Shouting" looks like (in keeping with a Star Trek theme)
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/picture.php?albumid=10&pictureid=490
BrotherEastman
07-19-2008, 08:47 AM
This is one of those polls where I don't agree with the premise of the question. I answered "No, it's out of order" simply because I don't believe in it as a matter of doctrine, meaning "One must do this".
Do I believe it is always out of order? Of course not, but neither do I believe it is something someone must do or if you don't do it regularly, your less spiritual than the person who wears out their voice box every service.
My view on what SOME "Pentecostal Shouting" looks like (in keeping with a Star Trek theme)
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/picture.php?albumid=10&pictureid=490
Excellent point, and I agree that shouting can at times be out of order. I just can't find scripture that PROHIBITS shouting, and niether can Mr. Vaughn.
RandyWayne
07-19-2008, 08:49 AM
Excellent point, and I agree that shouting can at times be out of order. I just can't find scripture that PROHIBITS shouting, and niether can Mr. Vaughn.
I used the word "believe" a lot because that is really all I have on this issue -an opinion.
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 09:28 AM
Wrong again, I actually gave a scripture, you didn't, when you do I will show how that you have taken the scripture out of context Mr. Vaughn. I think it is pretty sad that I found the scripture that you allude to, but you yourself didn't give it. Besides you alluding to a scripture doesn't mean that you actually gave it.:snapout
Your joking right... when eludes to a scripture.. he is GIVING SCRIPTURE
Pauls in teaching an out of control church,, explains to them that its time to calm down.., its time to get in order.... lets a visitor would think they had lost their minds,, they way they were acting
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 09:28 AM
Are any of you guys gonna deal with the whole "not drunk as ye suppose" deception?
Yes, yield to God.. so he can Spin you like a top... run you like a rag doll.... throw you in the floor.. give you convulsions.... make you stomp your shoes off.....
Funny God never did any of these things in his WORD.. but hey they have an experience... so it doesn't matter what the WORD says
This is bordering on blasphemy. You've all but come out and said you think these people are under the control of a devil.
Rejoicing in the Lord is wonderful,, I do it every service.....
Jerking uncontrollably... screaming wildley.. .shouting with no control,,,,, are not example of Rejoicing.. their examples of "being overtaken"
Being overtaken by the Holy Ghost is now evil?
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 09:42 AM
This is bordering on blasphemy. You've all but come out and said you think these people are under the control of a devil.
No No No.,,,,, there is a huge difference in the DEVIL and FLESh.... I suppose the latter is what I'm referring to
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 09:42 AM
Being overtaken by the Holy Ghost is now evil?
Not if you can show me one person in the scriptures that it ever happened to....
Not if you can show me one person in the scriptures that it ever happened to....
Vaughn, I've experienced this kind of shouting many times, and I can promise you it wasn't my flesh. I've had the Spirit come over me in such a way that I could not control my movements. You can not make an argument out of silence. Going that route NEVER works.
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 10:13 AM
Vaughn, I've experienced this kind of shouting many times, and I can promise you it wasn't my flesh. I've had the Spirit come over me in such a way that I could not control my movements. You can not make an argument out of silence. Going that route NEVER works.
Your daugher (if you have one) comes to you... Dad something comes over me when I am with him.... I have no control of myself Dad.... its a feeling I can't explain... he makes me FEEL so happy...... and there you sit with the TRUTH about this guy that she has all these personal experiences with.... you cant deny she FEELS ALL THIS.. and yet its wrong and he's wrong for her....
No matter her experiences.... you have truth and God desires us to worship him not only in Spirit but in TRUTH...... I concur that the Holy Spirit takes over NO ONE,,,,, he does not behave himself unseeminly.. He's a gentleman... what gentleman would send women jerking and losing control of their facilities in front of men... so sorry RICO..... I have never seen one example of it in scripture... what do we go by? THE NT GUIDE or peoples personal experiences?
theoldpaths
07-19-2008, 10:14 AM
This kinda reminds of something else that I and others have experienced - the only way that I can explain it is holy laughter - where you just laugh and laugh and laugh in the Spirit.
Has anyone ever experienced this before, or is it just me?
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 10:21 AM
There you go RICO - Holy Laughter... those people laughing in the floor for hours... barking like dogs some of them.. they would rebuke me as well for blaspheming the Holy Ghost because they have had these personal experiences that supersede the scriptures......and yet I would love to see your response to their out of control madness
theoldpaths
07-19-2008, 10:23 AM
My personal experience is that if the Lord wants to bless me in a special way, then that is His prerogative.
Joy unspeakable and full of glory.
In His presence there is fullness of joy and at His right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
I wonder how the 120 acted to make the observers believe that they were drunk?
When people in the world get drunk, they behave in different ways - some want to fight, some want to cry, some want to laugh, some lose all inhibitions, etc.
Its interesting that the baptism of the Holy Ghost has been referred to in God's word as being filled with new wine.
Your daugher (if you have one) comes to you... Dad something comes over me when I am with him.... I have no control of myself Dad.... its a feeling I can't explain... he makes me FEEL so happy...... and there you sit with the TRUTH about this guy that she has all these personal experiences with.... you cant deny she FEELS ALL THIS.. and yet its wrong and he's wrong for her....
No matter her experiences.... you have truth and God desires us to worship him not only in Spirit but in TRUTH...... I concur that the Holy Spirit takes over NO ONE,,,,, he does not behave himself unseeminly.. He's a gentleman... what gentleman would send women jerking and losing control of their facilities in front of men... so sorry RICO..... I have never seen one example of it in scripture... what do we go by? THE NT GUIDE or peoples personal experiences?
Now you're comparing the Holy Ghost to lust. What a disgusting and vile comparison. Vaughn, you've lost your mind. I'm done discussing this with you.
theoldpaths
07-19-2008, 10:31 AM
There you go RICO - Holy Laughter... those people laughing in the floor for hours... barking like dogs some of them.. they would rebuke me as well for blaspheming the Holy Ghost because they have had these personal experiences that supersede the scriptures......and yet I would love to see your response to their out of control madness
Sorry, but i've never experienced anyone in an apostolic church barking like a dog. I believe you are referring to a charismatic church in Canada that DOES NOT HAVE TRUTH. Therefore, just because someone who has truth worships in a way that one has never seen before, doesn't mean they should be lumped into the same category as Charismatics who do NOT have truth, but behave like animals.
I've read that at the 3+ year revival at Asuza street, there were testamonies of hearing angels sing.
My personal opinion is that where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. One is free to worship any way they want to.
David danced with all his might before the Lord, but someone religious who saw it despised him in her heart. Sometimes religious folks don't like how some others worship God.
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 10:34 AM
My personal experience is that if the Lord wants to bless me in a special way, then that is His prerogative.
Joy unspeakable and full of glory.
In His presence there is fullness of joy and at His right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
I wonder how the 120 acted to make the observers believe that they were drunk?
When people in the world get drunk, they behave in different ways - some want to fight, some want to cry, some want to laugh, some lose all inhibitions, etc.
Its interesting that the baptism of the Holy Ghost has been referred to in God's word as being filled with new wine.
Weve dealt with the whole "Drunk" thing a million times... had NOTHING to do with how they were acting or their worship.. nothing had all.. only had to do with their ability to speak in foreign languages
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 10:35 AM
Sorry, but i've never experienced anyone in an apostolic church barking like a dog. I believe you are referring to a charismatic church in Canada that DOES NOT HAVE TRUTH. Therefore, just because someone who has truth worships in a way that one has never seen before, doesn't mean they should be lumped into the same category as Charismatics who do NOT have truth, but behave like animals.
I've read that at the 3+ year revival at Asuza street, there were testamonies of hearing angels sing.
My personal opinion is that where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. One is free to worship any way they want to.
David danced with all his might before the Lord, but someone religious who saw it despised him in her heart. Sometimes religious folks don't like how some others worship God.
Oh you havn't.. trust me I grew up in them and it gets worse.. how about jumping on each others backs and running around the church.. oh yes it gets worse.,. how about precious young ladies convulsing in the floor like an eplileptic... oh it gets worse how about head banging...... trust me barking is the least threatening of them all.... and its all works of the flesh
theoldpaths
07-19-2008, 10:35 AM
I wonder if seeing someone speak in a foreign language would cause an observer to believe he was drunk? I've seen others speak in a language that was foreign to me, but I didn't think they were drunk.
Makes one wonder doesn't it?
theoldpaths
07-19-2008, 10:37 AM
Oh you havn't.. trust me I grew up in them and it gets worse.. how about jumping on each others backs and running around the church.. oh yes it gets worse.,. how about precious young ladies convulsing in the floor like an eplileptic... oh it gets worse how about head banging...... trust me barking is the least threatening of them all.... and its all works of the flesh
Are you apostolic?
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 10:49 AM
I wonder if seeing someone speak in a foreign language would cause an observer to believe he was drunk? I've seen others speak in a language that was foreign to me, but I didn't think they were drunk.
Makes one wonder doesn't it?
So I suppose you have never heard someone say after seeing someone do an amazing feat.,,, "Dude, what kind of drugs are they on"
Read the whole story in cotext and heres my challenge show me ONE REFERENCE where they were talking about these peoples worship... you know what never mind.. Ill do it for you
CONTEXT a beautiful thing
Acts 2:6 - Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Why were they confounded or confused?
# 1 Because they saw people shouting all over the place.....
# 2 Because they saw people running and screaming
# 3 Because common people had broken the language barrier
BINGO #3
Now, moving right along
Acts 2:7 - And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Why were the amazed and bewlidered and counfounded?
# 1 - The heard people laughing in the Spirit all over the place
# 2 - They saw folks leaping for joy
# 3 - Because common folks broke the language barrier
BINGO #3
Moving right along
OK HERES THE QUESTION
Acts 2:8 -And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
So what is the subject of the conversation or the question they are asking?
# 1 - Why are these people so happy
# 2 - Why are these folks dancing and shouting all over the place
# 3 - How do common folks speak in our languages
BINGO - #3
CONTEXT BREAK -- So far what is the subject at hand? TONGUES...... do you see any reference to Praise or Worship?
Great, moving right along
We skip verse 9,10 & 11 because it is just listing all the languages they heard them speaking in
So we pick up at verse 12 to find the CONTEXT,., whether it be worship and shouting or whether it be something else..... the PENTECOSTALS desperatly need for it to be worship and shouting
Acts 2:12 - And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Question- What were they amazed at?
# 1 - Peoples ability to shout and not get hurt?
# 2 - Peoples ability to dance uncontrollably
# 3 - Peoples ability to speak in foreign languages
BINGo # 3 - They are wanting to know all about this ability to break the language barrier and here they are trying to figure out where this new ability has come from.. they marvelled, they were amazed
and with this context in mind... we come to the next scripture
Acts 2:13 - Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
WHY DID THEY ACCUSE THEM OF DRINKING NEW WINE?
With all of the above scriptures taken in context please answer the following questions
#1 - because they saw them acting drunk
#2 - because they saw them shouting
#3 - because they heard them break the language barrier
BINGO # 3 --- had NOTHING TO DO WITH Pentecostal emotionalism
Acts 2:15 - For these are not drunken, as ye suppose
No sir,,, they didn't get this ability from a new wine... they got this ability from on high..... as prophesied by Joel... God said he would speak to his people with stammering lips and foreign lanagues.. and this is what you are seeing
So help me OLDPATHS... did you see a PENTECOSTAL service happening anywhere in the study of context?
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 10:50 AM
Are you apostolic?
Absolutely am.. .firmly believe in the Apostles Doctrine.... believe in one God.. baptize in Jesus Name.. filled with the Holy Ghost, have the gifts of the Spirit,,. been married one time... live a life of seperation...... so there ya go
theoldpaths
07-19-2008, 10:54 AM
Absolutely am.. .firmly believe in the Apostles Doctrine.... believe in one God.. baptize in Jesus Name.. filled with the Holy Ghost, have the gifts of the Spirit,,. been married one time... live a life of seperation...... so there ya go
Ok, good to hear and God bless.
I don't read any scriptures in the NT that says HOW one should preach; but I do notice that sometimes when preachers preach, different things happen. Sometimes they get emotional, sometimes they get very expressive with their gestures. I wonder why that is?
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 11:04 AM
Ok, good to hear and God bless.
I don't read any scriptures in the NT that says HOW one should preach; but I do notice that sometimes when preachers preach, different things happen. Sometimes they get emotional, sometimes they get very expressive with their gestures. I wonder why that is?
Actually we have scriptural precedence for preaching styles,,, Paul was more of a teacher Phillip was evangelistic.. Timothy preached Pastorally.... so preaching style has merely to do with ones background and none of those styles are condemned so long as the Word is being preached
Would you care to respond to the whole Pentecostal DRUNK deception.. about this meaning people were shouting everywhere?
B_Kendrick
07-19-2008, 01:06 PM
This kinda reminds of something else that I and others have experienced - the only way that I can explain it is holy laughter - where you just laugh and laugh and laugh in the Spirit.
Has anyone ever experienced this before, or is it just me?
I have seen this! And I have seen it from men who I KNNOOOWWWW are sincere! And I feel like it's wrong to tell someone that they didn't really experience that, or they were wrong if they did.
I have seen this! And I have seen it from men who I KNNOOOWWWW are sincere! And I feel like it's wrong to tell someone that they didn't really experience that, or they were wrong if they did.
Ya gotta name some names so we can decide if they're the real deal or not! :D
B_Kendrick
07-19-2008, 01:09 PM
Grew up in them... only problem is I dont find ONE REFERENCE in the NT of this ever happening.. the NT is my guide for church order not personal feelings
ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God...
B_Kendrick
07-19-2008, 01:12 PM
Grew up in them... only problem is I dont find ONE REFERENCE in the NT of this ever happening.. the NT is my guide for church order not personal feelings
Ok, so please explain to me what they meant in Acts 2:13-15 when it was proclaimed that we were drunk?
Kay B
07-19-2008, 01:13 PM
This may explain where I am coming from a little better.
I was raised in a church where the power of God fell often, and folks shouted, danced, ran, and screamed. it was normal for folks to come to church expecting to receive a "blessing" from God. I watched the holy ghost come upon my mom as she sang and played the organ, and she would begin to sing in tongues. I watched as the holy ghost would come upon my dad, and often he would cut loose into what some would call "the jerks", but what most of you now call out of order. I saw others that I could name, shouting, dancing in the spirit, screaming, and hollering. But I also heard the Word preached. I saw conviction hit folks that caused them to run to an alter. I saw folks pray through to the holy ghost. I saw cancers fall of into peoples hands. I saw folks healed, delivered, and set free.
This would be another example:
I have witnessed with my own eye's a man shout backwards, fall over a row of folding chairs, smack dab onto a sleeping baby, and rolled back off of the baby, never missing a beat. The baby was fine, and never even woke up.
I could also add this:
Often, when the holy ghost came upon my mother, she would scream out, and turn slowly in circles with raise hands. At times, she would shout her hair down, and we kids spent time after service collecting the bobbypins for her and some of the other ladies in the church
I believe ! :D
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 02:37 PM
Ok, so please explain to me what they meant in Acts 2:13-15 when it was proclaimed that we were drunk?
Oh PLEASE be kidding...
You see you guys who try to tell me the pentecostal don't reference Acts 2 as justification for their shouting???? lol here's living proof
B Kendrick.. theres an entire thread entitled NOT DRUNK... where we explain it
B_Kendrick
07-19-2008, 03:01 PM
Oh PLEASE be kidding...
You see you guys who try to tell me the pentecostal don't reference Acts 2 as justification for their shouting???? lol here's living proof
B Kendrick.. theres an entire thread entitled NOT DRUNK... where we explain it
I made that explanation in the other thread also!
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