Becoming An Ex-Pentecostal

[Rico]

What do you think are the stages one goes through in becoming an ex-pentecostal? We've all heard about the slippery, and I think we can agree it all starts with questioning things one has been taught. What do you think is the path one takes to becoming an ex-pentecostal. For clarity, by ex-pentecostal I mean someone who gets to the point of not believing in the infilling of the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues, baptism, and other apostolic doctrine. I am not referring to those who let dress standards go, but I will say that for some folks letting go of traditional OP dress standards is one of the first steps they take in becoming ex-pentecostal.

[Rico]

Wow. Twenty five views and no comments? Is this not something y'all want to talk about? Bummer. That makes two threads in the last two days I've started that have gone nowhere. Oh well. I guess it is more fun to chase down Vaughn and argue over some article posted on a blog. LOL!

[jaxfam6]

Wow. Twenty five views and no comments? Is this not something y'all want to talk about? Bummer. That makes two threads in the last two days I've started that have gone nowhere. Oh well. I guess it is more fun to chase down Vaughn and argue over some article posted on a blog. LOL!

Did you have to bring that name into it?

Gezzzzz Rico ruin your own thread.


=)

[jaxfam6]

What do you think are the stages one goes through in becoming an ex-pentecostal? We've all heard about the slippery, and I think we can agree it all starts with questioning things one has been taught. What do you think is the path one takes to becoming an ex-pentecostal. For clarity, by ex-pentecostal I mean someone who gets to the point of not believing in the infilling of the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues, baptism, and other apostolic doctrine. I am not referring to those who let dress standards go, but I will say that for some folks letting go of traditional OP dress standards is one of the first steps they take in becoming ex-pentecostal.

I think they start doubting God. They start doubting what God has done for them and through them. They then start allowing false teaching to affect them. Then they start believing false teaching.
I don't really know but it has to do with not believing in God any longer in my opinion. They start believing in man made ideas and doctrine. They start exalting a man above God.

[deltaguitar]

Well, sometimes I wonder if I am headed to becoming ex-pentecostal. While I believe in speaking in tongues I haven't actually seen the benefits of it. This is how it has started with me. Plus, I feel more at home in a Baptist type church but I believe that the gifts of the spirit are important for the church if used properly. My problem comes from hype that I have experienced so much in my life.

Reasons -
1) I would be at an altar and folks would be going crazy and I wouldn't feel anything other than the same thing I might feel at a rock concert. Just emotionalism. I feel more of God in a quiet setting when no one is around.

2) I have had preachers lay hands on me and wonder why in the world I didn't feel anything. Now, some of this might just be my own personal anxiety and nervousness at how people are expecting me to react.

I have more but this is all I can post at the moment.

[Brad Murphy]

I don't know that I believe in false teaching... I just don't believe in any teaching or any absolute truth...

[RevDWW]

Stages? I thought there was just an application to fill out and dues to pay.......:ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny

[A_PoMo]

For most people I think it boils down to personal taste and an honest attempt to interprete scripture the best they are able. Really, isn't that why there are so many different flavors and brands of Christianity. Christianity has become a niche market with every spin-off denomination and group that has it's own distinctives. Kind of like 7-UP. You can buy regular, diet, cherry, dark cherry, and today I even saw pomegranate 7-UP. Pomegranate? Huh? Who would like pomegranate 7-UP? Not me, but I'm sure somebody will like it. Churches are like that too aren't they? All churches cater to their base in terms of style/liturgy/ecclessiology. Birds of a feather like to flock together.

Plus, the Bible is more open to interpreation than most OP's want to admit. Not to mention lack of education and knowledge illogical logic, bad hermeneutic that result in faulty conclusions that go into formulating doctrinal positions. I believe there is absolute truth, but I doubt that any of us have it all figured out exactly right. So, sincere people attempt to be intellectually honest and due to their humanity come to different conclusions about biblical interpretation and over time they move away from each other in terms of regular fellowship and association. Once they do they find other people who agree with their theology and whose worship style/liturgy/ecclessiology they prefer and they become ex-whatever they were before.

I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily.

[ReformedDave]

PoMo- you hit it 100%- In my case it was through study and was not a sudden thing. It took years. It started with the inability to defend my 'faith' and not agreeing(Biblically) with much that I saw around me. Actually it came with a quest for objective Truth (PoMo- you might disagree here) that was defendable.

[RandyWayne]

For most people I think it boils down to personal taste and an honest attempt to interprete scripture the best they are able. Really, isn't that why there are so many different flavors and brands of Christianity. Christianity has become a niche market with every spin-off denomination and group that has it's own distinctives. Kind of like 7-UP. You can buy regular, diet, cherry, dark cherry, and today I even saw pomegranate 7-UP. Pomegranate? Huh? Who would like pomegranate 7-UP? Not me, but I'm sure somebody will like it. Churches are like that too aren't they? All churches cater to their base in terms of style/liturgy/ecclessiology. Birds of a feather like to flock together.

Plus, the Bible is more open to interpreation than most OP's want to admit. Not to mention lack of education and knowledge illogical logic, bad hermeneutic that result in faulty conclusions that go into formulating doctrinal positions. I believe there is absolute truth, but I doubt that any of us have it all figured out exactly right. So, sincere people attempt to be intellectually honest and due to their humanity come to different conclusions about biblical interpretation and over time they move away from each other in terms of regular fellowship and association. Once they do they find other people who agree with their theology and whose worship style/liturgy/ecclessiology they prefer and they become ex-whatever they were before.

I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily.

I've always thought of a scenario where 50 people who had no bible knowledge were each given one and told to read it. A month or two later, you would no doubt see 50 different doctrines adopted (granted, with the bulk falling into a couple of general groups).

[Steve Epley]

What do you think are the stages one goes through in becoming an ex-pentecostal? We've all heard about the slippery, and I think we can agree it all starts with questioning things one has been taught. What do you think is the path one takes to becoming an ex-pentecostal. For clarity, by ex-pentecostal I mean someone who gets to the point of not believing in the infilling of the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues, baptism, and other apostolic doctrine. I am not referring to those who let dress standards go, but I will say that for some folks letting go of traditional OP dress standards is one of the first steps they take in becoming ex-pentecostal.

One step at a time.

[ReformedDave]

One step at a time.

Agreed. And there are a lot more than 3.

[freeatlast]

PoMo- you hit it 100%- In my case it was through study and was not a sudden thing. It took years. It started with the inability to defend my 'faith' and not agreeing(Biblically) with much that I saw around me. Actually it came with a quest for objective Truth (PoMo- you might disagree here) that was defendable.

Ditto: as Epley says, "first goes the standards, then goes the doctrine"

When I began to see that our scriptural basis for "pentecostal holiness standards" was bankrupt i had to ask my myself this very serious question.

If we are so in error on rings to sleeves to beards to dreeses only....then what else have we errored on.

We laugh at the JW's and mormons....but we got plenty of false doctrine among us too.

[Steve Epley]

Ditto: as Epley says, "first goes the standards, then goes the doctrine"

When I began to see that our scriptural basis for "pentecostal holiness standards" was bankrupt i had to ask my myself this very serious question.

If we are so in error on rings to sleeves to beards to dreeses only....then what else have we errored on.

We laugh at the JW's and mormons....but we got plenty of false doctrine among us too.

And you are in error on both!:aaa

[ReformedDave]

Ditto: as Epley says, "first goes the standards, then goes the doctrine"

When I began to see that our scriptural basis for "pentecostal holiness standards" was bankrupt i had to ask my myself this very serious question.

If we are so in error on rings to sleeves to beards to dreeses only....then what else have we errored on.

We laugh at the JW's and mormons....but we got plenty of false doctrine among us too.

My case had nothing to do with 'standards' of dress. It was doctrinal.

[TRFrance]

Some believers get into deep study of the essentials of the faith, and end up having a much stronger faith.

...while some others do the same thing, and end up walking away from the faith.

Interesting how that happens.
But I thank God that I ended up stronger, to the glory of God. Amen.

[TRFrance]

Ditto: as Epley says, "first goes the standards, then goes the doctrine"

When I began to see that our scriptural basis for "pentecostal holiness standards" was bankrupt i had to ask my myself this very serious question.

If we are so in error on rings to sleeves to beards to dreeses only....then what else have we errored on.

We laugh at the JW's and mormons....but we got plenty of false doctrine among us too.
Someone walking away from standards is no excuse for walking away from the Pentecostal faith, as some have done.

[Hoovie]

Ditto: as Epley says, "first goes the standards, then goes the doctrine"

When I began to see that our scriptural basis for "pentecostal holiness standards" was bankrupt i had to ask my myself this very serious question.

If we are so in error on rings to sleeves to beards to dreeses only....then what else have we errored on.

We laugh at the JW's and mormons....but we got plenty of false doctrine among us too.

but... are you not currently UPC?

[Hoovie]

What do you think are the stages one goes through in becoming an ex-pentecostal? We've all heard about the slippery, and I think we can agree it all starts with questioning things one has been taught. What do you think is the path one takes to becoming an ex-pentecostal. For clarity, by ex-pentecostal I mean someone who gets to the point of not believing in the infilling of the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues, baptism, and other apostolic doctrine. I am not referring to those who let dress standards go, but I will say that for some folks letting go of traditional OP dress standards is one of the first steps they take in becoming ex-pentecostal.

For many I think they withdraw from the Pentecostal influence... and resist assembling together...

... How did it happen for you Rico?

:whistle

[Hoovie]

BTW... Being EX-Pentecostal need not mean becoming EX-Christian, IMHO.

[freeatlast]

but... are you not currently UPC?

The only thing UPC about me is that my pastor holds a upc license.

We are not affiliated with the UPc as a church.

[freeatlast]

Someone walking away from standards is no excuse for walking away from the Pentecostal faith, as some have done.

I'm gonna take my chances with faih in Christ, his atonement for my sins, his rightousness inputed to me.

You go with faith in pentecost.

[TRFrance]

BTW... Being EX-Pentecostal need not mean becoming EX-Christian, IMHO.
Yes we know. But for some, becoming ex-Pentecostal has been a rest stop on the road toward becoming ex-Christian.

[TRFrance]

I'm gonna take my chances with faih in Christ, his atonement for my sins, his rightousness inputed to me.

You go with faith in pentecost.
Believing in the fundamentals of Pentecostal doctrine is not antithetical to having faith in Christ.
Neither is it having "faith in pentecost" as you cynically assert.

[Cindy]

I don't know that I believe in false teaching... I just don't believe in any teaching or any absolute truth...

So you are just taking up space here?

[Brad Murphy]

So you are just taking up space here?

I guess so, there seemed to be room...

[Cindy]

I guess so, there seemed to be room...

Absolute faith is hard huh?

[Brad Murphy]

Absolute faith is hard huh? I just disagree with the notion that "you must believe in something or you will fall for anything". I am suspicious and distrustful of pretty much everything, which will make it kinda hard for me to "fall for anything". As for having faith, the problem is that you have to choose what to have faith in, and there are too many choices.

[Rico]

For many I think they withdraw from the Pentecostal influence... and resist assembling together...

... How did it happen for you Rico?

:whistle


What? I'm not an ex-pentecostal, Hoover.:club

[Cindy]

I just disagree with the notion that "you must believe in something or you will fall for anything". I am suspicious and distrustful of pretty much everything, which will make it kinda hard for me to "fall for anything". As for having faith, the problem is that you have to choose what to have faith in, and there are too many choices.

It's not about religion or even doctrine, so much as turning all control over to an unseen God. There is really one choice as I believe it. It's not just believing in God, as it is believing God. There is a difference.

[ReformedDave]

It's not about religion or even doctrine, so much as turning all control over to an unseen God. There is really one choice as I believe it. It's not just believing in God, as it is believing God. There is a difference.

When one describes God in any way that is doctrine.

[Hoovie]

The only thing UPC about me is that my pastor holds a upc license.

We are not affiliated with the UPc as a church.

Niether are we - nor most churches having a UPC Minister for that matter.

[Rico]

It seems to me that there has to be a line ex-pentecostals cross in their minds that takes them from someone who is questioning the things they've been taught to someone who no longer believes truth.

[A_PoMo]

It seems to me that there has to be a line ex-pentecostals cross in their minds that takes them from someone who is questioning the things they've been taught to someone who no longer believes truth.

Truth = Code word for Apostolic doctrine? If so, which ones?

[Rico]

Truth = Code word for Apostolic doctrine? If so, which ones?

How about that one where they talk about speaking in tongues? Is that apostolic enough for ya?

[Timmy]

So much to say, so little time.

I will try to post later tonight, or maybe tomorrow, or ... well, we'll see. Busy getting ready for a business trip Monday.

[Timmy]

So much to say, so little time.

I will try to post later tonight, or maybe tomorrow, or ... well, we'll see. Busy getting ready for a business trip Monday.

And there's another thread I've promised to add my thoughts to, related to this topic. Something about how the church can keep people. I'll have to hunt it down.

[pelathais]

We are attached to our various social groupings in a variety of ways. We will often choose to leave one of those groups when it is no longer in our best interest to remain.

Many people remain in Pentecostal churches (or whatever church they attend) long after they have broken their philosophical attachments because remaining in the church is in the best interest of their family attachments.

Others simply have no choice except to remain because they are under age or - as I've seen at times - because they have an employment within the church body that they are reluctant to lose.

For myself, I had an employment, a position with some status, and a family network within Pentecost. But when I refused to "backslide" along with a few of those around me I lost my job, my position - which I was willing to accept, but then they turned at my family to continue and even intensify their attacks against them. This really disgusted me to the point that I had no fight left in me and I left.

I am somewhat disappointed with myself today, many years later. I have found out how that I had let down many other people who were still in the church and I handicapped the district leadership in the ability to govern affairs that they were charged with overseeing. I should have stayed and fought.

However, simultaneously to all of this; I was wrestling with the core belief system of the group. Jesse Williams, a man I had admired, had said something at about that time. He has said, "If you no longer believe the doctrine, then be a gentleman and leave." So for me at the time, the 'easy way out' was to "be a gentleman" and that made my departure a little easier.

The speaking schedules that I was tasked with arranging were now in the hands of men wanting to cover up the adultries of their Okalahoma buddies. Those Oklahoma buddies were given time to make the financial arrangements so that their pending divorces and loss of pastorates would not be as expensive as it would have been if I had spoken up.

Somehow, these guys were the "faithful" while I was the "Ex-Pentecostal..."

I'm still against pandering to adulterers and using church resources to enable what amounts to essentially a sex club. But this view makes me an "Ex-Pentecostal..."

I'm against "moving money around" to defraud the wife you've abandoned and I have some serious question about whose money that might have been - the church's? I don't know. All I know was that 13 weeks were required to make all of the arrangements after the wife found out. I was fired during the second week when I began to figure things out. The reason I was fired was because I was "hindering revival."

There are folks who may be reading this now who will remember a storied 13 week revival. I saw many of you dancing in those services. I didn't dance. Because you did dance, you are Pentecostals. Because I could not bring myself to dance, I am an "Ex Pentecostal."

That's the way it happened for me.

[ReformedDave]

We are attached to our various social groupings in a variety of ways. We will often choose to leave one of those groups when it is no longer in our best interest to remain.

Many people remain in Pentecostal churches (or whatever church they attend) long after they have broken their philosophical attachments because remaining in the church is in the best interest of their family attachments.

Others simply have no choice except to remain because they are under age or - as I've seen at times - because they have an employment within the church body that they are reluctant to lose.

For myself, I had an employment, a position with some status, and a family network within Pentecost. But when I refused to "backslide" along with a few of those around me I lost my job, my position - which I was willing to accept, but then they turned at my family to continue and even intensify their attacks against them. This really disgusted me to the point that I had no fight left in me and I left.

I am somewhat disappointed with myself today, many years later. I have found out how that I had let down many other people who were still in the church and I handicapped the district leadership in the ability to govern affairs that they were charged with overseeing. I should have stayed and fought.

However, simultaneously to all of this; I was wrestling with the core belief system of the group. Jesse Williams, a man I had admired, had said something at about that time. He has said, "If you no longer believe the doctrine, then be a gentleman and leave." So for me at the time, the 'easy way out' was to "be a gentleman" and that made my departure a little easier.

The speaking schedules that I was tasked with arranging were now in the hands of men wanting to cover up the adultries of their Okalahoma buddies. Those Oklahoma buddies were given time to make the financial arrangements so that their pending divorces and loss of pastorates would not be as expensive as it would have been if I had spoken up.

Somehow, these guys were the "faithful" while I was the "Ex-Pentecostal..."

I'm still against pandering to adulterers and using church resources to enable what amounts to essentially a sex club. But this view makes me an "Ex-Pentecostal..."

I'm against "moving money around" to defraud the wife you've abandoned and I have some serious question about whose money that might have been - the church's? I don't know. All I know was that 13 weeks were required to make all of the arrangements after the wife found out. I was fired during the second week when I began to figure things out. The reason I was fired was because I was "hindering revival."

There folks who may be reading this now who will remember a storied 13 week revival. I saw many of you dancing in those services. I didn't dance. Because you did dance, you are Pentecostals. Because I could not bring myself to dance, I am an "Ex Pentecostal."

That's the way it happened for me.

Good post.

[Hoovie]

We are attached to our various social groupings in a variety of ways. We will often choose to leave one of those groups when it is no longer in our best interest to remain.

Many people remain in Pentecostal churches (or whatever church they attend) long after they have broken their philosophical attachments because remaining in the church is in the best interest of their family attachments.

Others simply have no choice except to remain because they are under age or - as I've seen at times - because they have an employment within the church body that they are reluctant to lose.

For myself, I had an employment, a position with some status, and a family network within Pentecost. But when I refused to "backslide" along with a few of those around me I lost my job, my position - which I was willing to accept, but then they turned at my family to continue and even intensify their attacks against them. This really disgusted me to the point that I had no fight left in me and I left.

I am somewhat disappointed with myself today, many years later. I have found out how that I had let down many other people who were still in the church and I handicapped the district leadership in the ability to govern affairs that they were charged with overseeing. I should have stayed and fought.

However, simultaneously to all of this; I was wrestling with the core belief system of the group. Jesse Williams, a man I had admired, had said something at about that time. He has said, "If you no longer believe the doctrine, then be a gentleman and leave." So for me at the time, the 'easy way out' was to "be a gentleman" and that made my departure a little easier.

The speaking schedules that I was tasked with arranging were now in the hands of men wanting to cover up the adultries of their Okalahoma buddies. Those Oklahoma buddies were given time to make the financial arrangements so that their pending divorces and loss of pastorates would not be as expensive as it would have been if I had spoken up.

Somehow, these guys were the "faithful" while I was the "Ex-Pentecostal..."

I'm still against pandering to adulterers and using church resources to enable what amounts to essentially a sex club. But this view makes me an "Ex-Pentecostal..."

I'm against "moving money around" to defraud the wife you've abandoned and I have some serious question about whose money that might have been - the church's? I don't know. All I know was that 13 weeks were required to make all of the arrangements after the wife found out. I was fired during the second week when I began to figure things out. The reason I was fired was because I was "hindering revival."

There folks who may be reading this now who will remember a storied 13 week revival. I saw many of you dancing in those services. I didn't dance. Because you did dance, you are Pentecostals. Because I could not bring myself to dance, I am an "Ex Pentecostal."

That's the way it happened for me.


Pel, you have quite the story. I know it is still hurtful to you. I am glad you can talk about it objectively.

How do you find yourself relating to the Pentecostal Church today? Have you managed to regain some or any of the former respect you had for the church and it's leaders?

[Revelationist]

It seems to me that there has to be a line ex-pentecostals cross in their minds that takes them from someone who is questioning the things they've been taught to someone who no longer believes truth.

I was raised being taught that we had the truth, only to grow up and discover that you don't have truth, you walk in truth.

I prefer just being called a Christian.

[pelathais]

Pel, you have quite the story. I know it is still hurtful to you. I am glad you can talk about it objectively.

How do you find yourself relating to the Pentecostal Church today? Have you managed to regain some or any of the former respect you had for the church and it's leaders?
I have tremendous respect for the "official" leadership. I knew many of these men and worked with them for years. As I said, I let them down in many ways by remaining silent and just shuffling off the scene.

One of the reasons I remained silent was because the doctrinal questions I had made me feel isolated from them. Another reason was - and this is where I really dropped the ball - I tended to lump everyone in leadership into a "them" category and I failed to see them as individual Christians attempting to do some difficult jobs.

For a few years "after" I just did my best to lay low and stay away. As it was, things turned out in such a way that I was entirely vindicated and my persecutors are no all mostly gone - and a couple have even been "converted" to seeing things from my view; except where their own wrong doings were involved. They still attempt to justify themselves rather than seek justification in Jesus Christ.

I am on very good terms with most of the local district board. There's one fellow, an old friend, who still doesn't acknowledge my existence. He was never even close to what went on before and probably has no idea about the details. He's just one of those WPF types whose wires fry whenever they're confronted with something outside their comfy little paradigms.

I don't attend any church regularly though my wife and kids do and we support it financially. My work schedule is chaotic and involves a lot of afterhours and weekend work. That, plus the fact that the answers I give to questions are not the things a lot of people want to hear in the UPC means that it's probably best that I lay low.

I bear no grudge against the UPC itself or its leaders. I have important concerns about the social conditions in many places and the way that the gospel is presented and sometimes even misrepresented. The UPC was my whole life for most of my life. But because of the way it's built - the whole church crumbled around me when an Oklahoma preacher showed up wanting something from his secretary that his wife refused to give him.

Why is the UPC (and the Apostolic movement in general) designed to mess up my life in so many important ways just because someone of greater importance than me wanted kinky sex? Why was any of that even any of my business?

The answer is: Because that's the way we're designed to interact. We have such a preoccupation with the bedrooms of others that a few have a preoccupation with making their bedrooms important throughout the movement. This part still grosses me out.

[Hoovie]

I have tremendous respect for the "official" leadership. I knew many of these men and worked with them for years. As I said, I let them down in many ways by remaining silent and just shuffling off the scene.

One of the reasons I remained silent was because the doctrinal questions I had made me feel isolated from them. Another reason was - and this is where I really dropped the ball - I tended to lump everyone in leadership into a "them" category and I failed to see them as individual Christians attempting to do some difficult jobs.

For a few years "after" I just did my best to lay low and stay away. As it was, things turned out in such a way that I was entirely vindicated and my persecutors are no all mostly gone - and a couple have even been "converted" to seeing things from my view; except where their own wrong doings were involved. They still attempt to justify themselves rather than seek justification in Jesus Christ.

I am on very good terms with most of the local district board. There's one fellow, an old friend, who still doesn't acknowledge my existence. He was never even close to what went on before and probably has no idea about the details. He's just one of those WPF types whose wires fry whenever they're confronted with something outside their comfy little paradigms.

I don't attend any church regularly though my wife and kids do and we support it financially. My work schedule is chaotic and involves a lot of afterhours and weekend work. That, plus the fact that the answers I give to questions are not the things a lot of people want to hear in the UPC means that it's probably best that I lay low.

I bear no grudge against the UPC itself or its leaders. I have important concerns about the social conditions in many places and the way that the gospel is presented and sometimes even misrepresented. The UPC was my whole life for most of my life. But because of the way it's built - the whole church crumbled around me when an Oklahoma preacher showed up wanting something from his secretary that his wife refused to give him.

Why is the UPC (and the Apostolic movement in general) designed to mess up my life in so many important ways just because someone of greater importance than me wanted kinky sex? Why was any of that even any of my business?

The answer is: Because that's the way we're designed to interact. We have such a preoccupation with the bedrooms of others that a few have a preoccupation with making their bedrooms important throughout the movement. This part still grosses me out.

Thank you for the reply.

Perhaps I am naive, but I really don't understand this bolded part.

[Jermyn Davidson]

How about that one where they talk about speaking in tongues? Is that apostolic enough for ya?


I
I am at a place where I don't believe speaking in tongues is essential for salvation. Never will be an ex-pentecostal, but will probably be considered to be ex-UPCI.
I started questioning when I saw what I saw going on with the tongues in some of the churches I've attended, though I did question standards first.

[mizpeh]

I
I am at a place where I don't believe speaking in tongues is essential for salvation. Never will be an ex-pentecostal, but will probably be considered to be ex-UPCI.
I started questioning when I saw what I saw going on with the tongues in some of the churches I've attended.

What did you see going on?

If you're going to dismiss tongues as being the initial evidence of the initial infilling of the Holy Ghost, you would do better to be convinced of it because of what is written in the word of God and not because of what you see in church.

[live4him]

I have tremendous respect for the "official" leadership. I knew many of these men and worked with them for years. As I said, I let them down in many ways by remaining silent and just shuffling off the scene.

One of the reasons I remained silent was because the doctrinal questions I had made me feel isolated from them. Another reason was - and this is where I really dropped the ball - I tended to lump everyone in leadership into a "them" category and I failed to see them as individual Christians attempting to do some difficult jobs.

For a few years "after" I just did my best to lay low and stay away. As it was, things turned out in such a way that I was entirely vindicated and my persecutors are no all mostly gone - and a couple have even been "converted" to seeing things from my view; except where their own wrong doings were involved. They still attempt to justify themselves rather than seek justification in Jesus Christ.

I am on very good terms with most of the local district board. There's one fellow, an old friend, who still doesn't acknowledge my existence. He was never even close to what went on before and probably has no idea about the details. He's just one of those WPF types whose wires fry whenever they're confronted with something outside their comfy little paradigms.

I don't attend any church regularly though my wife and kids do and we support it financially. My work schedule is chaotic and involves a lot of afterhours and weekend work. That, plus the fact that the answers I give to questions are not the things a lot of people want to hear in the UPC means that it's probably best that I lay low.

I bear no grudge against the UPC itself or its leaders. I have important concerns about the social conditions in many places and the way that the gospel is presented and sometimes even misrepresented. The UPC was my whole life for most of my life. But because of the way it's built - the whole church crumbled around me when an Oklahoma preacher showed up wanting something from his secretary that his wife refused to give him.

Why is the UPC (and the Apostolic movement in general) designed to mess up my life in so many important ways just because someone of greater importance than me wanted kinky sex? Why was any of that even any of my business?

The answer is: Because that's the way we're designed to interact. We have such a preoccupation with the bedrooms of others that a few have a preoccupation with making their bedrooms important throughout the movement. This part still grosses me out.


i am sorry that this is happening in the church today, it has been happening for years, no one would come out and fix it, i remember some people having sex in the music room and they were not even married, the man was but the woman wasnt, i do not understand that they could get on the platform and sing for the church, it makes me want to puk, and it was the womans sister . but i have to say that whatever happens in a church we really should move on because we will be lost if we do not get back to where we were, find a different church, but stay in the truth, and remember we are all human that have come short of the glory of God, by his grace that is not us doing that, we can fall in to temptation too,
but we are in the end times and it is going to get worse, so be ready cause here it comes. it is reality, but when it happens in a church and not a jobsite it can be different because it is church, how are we suppose to witness when this is going on in a church, makes me sick, there has to be alot of praying and fasting, thats the key,

[ReformedDave]

What did you see going on?

If you're going to dismiss tongues as being the initial evidence of the initial infilling of the Holy Ghost, you would do better to be convinced of it because of what is written in the word of God and not because of what you see in church.

Wow! Exactly.

[jaxfam6]

BTW... Being EX-Pentecostal need not mean becoming EX-Christian, IMHO.

Yes we know. But for some, becoming ex-Pentecostal has been a rest stop on the road toward becoming ex-Christian.

But are you equating Pentecostal as UPC? There are many Pentecostals only one group calls themselves UPC. I guess I am of the thought that it is the Pentecostal experience that is being talked about here. The ACTS 2 message.

I personally do not adhere to the same 'standard of dress' that I was taught was the only way to dress but I still believe very strongly in the Pentecostal experience and the Apostolic message. I don't think becoming ex-Pentecostal has anything to do with not dressing the UPC dress code.

[StillStanding]

One day I sat down and thought about how I was raised in the Apostolic doctrine.

I wondered, If I was by myself on an island with nothing but a bible and with no preconceived ideas about God that had been taught to me, would I believe the same things that I believe today? If my father had been a Baptist or Methodist preacher, wouldn't my beliefs be different?

I began studying in a new light, and I came to the conclusion that not everything that was taught to me is necessarily biblically correct.

I have been indoctrinated too extremely to comprehend God other than Oneness. I've witnessed too many baptisms in Jesus name to feel comfortable with baptisms any other way! I've experienced the Holy Ghost baptism and seen God heal and change lives to believe any other way.

[Barb]

One day I sat down and thought about how I was raised in the Apostolic doctrine.

I wondered, If I was by myself on an island with nothing but a bible and with no preconceived ideas about God that had been taught to me, would I believe the same things that I believe today? If my father had been a Baptist or Methodist preacher, wouldn't my beliefs be different?

I began studying in a new light, and I came to the conclusion that not everything that was taught to me is necessarily biblically correct.

I have been indoctrinated too extremely to comprehend God other than Oneness. I've witnessed too many baptisms in Jesus name to feel comfortable with baptisms any other way! I've experienced the Holy Ghost baptism and seen God heal and change lives to believe any other way.:thumbsup

[rgcraig]

One day I sat down and thought about how I was raised in the Apostolic doctrine.

I wondered, If I was by myself on an island with nothing but a bible and with no preconceived ideas about God that had been taught to me, would I believe the same things that I believe today? If my father had been a Baptist or Methodist preacher, wouldn't my beliefs be different?

I began studying in a new light, and I came to the conclusion that not everything that was taught to me is necessarily biblically correct.

I have been indoctrinated too extremely to comprehend God other than Oneness. I've witnessed too many baptisms in Jesus name to feel comfortable with baptisms any other way! I've experienced the Holy Ghost baptism and seen God heal and change lives to believe any other way.
That doesn't make you ex-Pentecostal - just ex-indoctrinated.

[Shawn]

I don't question Acts 2:38. I was baptized in Jesus name and received the Holy Ghost that evening.

But I haven't really attended church in years....I'd like to start again. The Apostolic church I went to believed in confessing all sins to the Pastor. It seemed really legalstic....maybe I'm wrong. I ended up feeling damned and didn't so much as read the bible for quite a few years.

I've been studying a lot the last few years but still have many questions. The Godhead is a tough one...deep down I feel I'm Oneness. But It's a big Idea to try to comprehend. I'm still not living the Life I should be.

[jaxfam6]

I don't question Acts 2:38. I was baptized in Jesus name and received the Holy Ghost that evening.

But I haven't really attended church in years....I'd like to start again. The Apostolic church I went to believed in confessing all sins to the Pastor. It seemed really legalstic....maybe I'm wrong. I ended up feeling damned and didn't so much as read the bible for quite a few years.

I've been studying a lot the last few years but still have many questions. The Godhead is a tough one...deep down I feel I'm Oneness. But It's a big Idea to try to comprehend. I'm still not living the Life I should be.

Don't feel to bad, most everyone here isn't either

=)

[jaxfam6]

I don't question Acts 2:38. I was baptized in Jesus name and received the Holy Ghost that evening.

But I haven't really attended church in years....I'd like to start again. The Apostolic church I went to believed in confessing all sins to the Pastor. It seemed really legalstic....maybe I'm wrong. I ended up feeling damned and didn't so much as read the bible for quite a few years.

I've been studying a lot the last few years but still have many questions. The Godhead is a tough one...deep down I feel I'm Oneness. But It's a big Idea to try to comprehend. I'm still not living the Life I should be.

I had a cousin who taught like that and then the next thing you know his wife and daughter were counseling the young couples on their sex lives. Talk about causing problems. He had a large group get very offended and leave. Not that I blame them. I would have left before that started cause the only person I'm going to confess to is God almighty cause he is the only one that can forgive me.

[rgcraig]

I don't question Acts 2:38. I was baptized in Jesus name and received the Holy Ghost that evening.

But I haven't really attended church in years....I'd like to start again. The Apostolic church I went to believed in confessing all sins to the Pastor. It seemed really legalstic....maybe I'm wrong. I ended up feeling damned and didn't so much as read the bible for quite a few years.

I've been studying a lot the last few years but still have many questions. The Godhead is a tough one...deep down I feel I'm Oneness. But It's a big Idea to try to comprehend. I'm still not living the Life I should be.

Shawn, just start where you are........it's all about a relationship with Jesus and I guarantee you he's just waiting on you.

[RandyWayne]

I remember my downward slide beginning (or was it the first light going off?) when I overheard my then pastor tell someone else "and they show someone wearing shorts going in the rapture!" -talking about an end time movie being played at the church where someone wearing shorts was... well, you know.
The ludicrousness of someone making a salvation statement about someone who wasn't following the dress code of that church stood out.

The second big light to go off in my head came after hearing a number of men debate "oneness" issues and their understanding of it. Even if I knew what I knew before, I didn't after listening to these guys! They made it virtually impossible to understand oneness, and yet claimed at the same time that if you didn't understand it like they did, that you were lost.

And the last major big light to go off was comparing the fruits of other Christians to those who I knew to be Pentecostals (UPC) at the time. The bible says you will know them by their fruits. What are the fruits? Love, compassion, long suffering, etc. I was seeing little old catholic nuns showing FAR more fruits then many starch-shirt, stiff collared, pentecostal poof wearing, TV gaze averting, UPCers.
Then I started seeing alllllllll the versus speaking of grace, mercy, faith, and love that I knew were there, but never spent any time on since everything was always steamrolled right to Acts 2:38.

[Timmy]

Wow. Interesting posts. I may not have much to add, after all! ;)

But seriously, I want to take some time to share some of my experience with you, and I don't have a lot of time right now.

Patience!

[freeatlast]

I remember my downward slide beginning (or was it the first light going off?) when I overheard my then pastor tell someone else "and they show someone wearing shorts going in the rapture!" -talking about an end time movie being played at the church where someone wearing shorts was... well, you know.
The ludicrousness of someone making a salvation statement about someone who wasn't following the dress code of that church stood out.

The second big light to go off in my head came after hearing a number of men debate "oneness" issues and their understanding of it. Even if I knew what I knew before, I didn't after listening to these guys! They made it virtually impossible to understand oneness, and yet claimed at the same time that if you didn't understand it like they did, that you were lost.

And the last major big light to go off was comparing the fruits of other Christians to those who I knew to be Pentecostals (UPC) at the time. The bible says you will know them by their fruits. What are the fruits? Love, compassion, long suffering, etc. I was seeing little old catholic nuns showing FAR more fruits then many starch-shirt, stiff collared, pentecostal poof wearing, TV gaze averting, UPCers.
Then I started seeing alllllllll the versus speaking of grace, mercy, faith, and love that I knew were there, but never spent any time on since everything was always steamrolled right to Acts 2:38.

Randy ya hit the nail on the head here. So many that are seeing things in a clearer light these days. started off much like you.

So much inconsistency in our core doctrines. Idealogys that are proped up with scripture that a first grader can see through.

when we claim to be so 100% right and we come up short on doctrine, it makes you question what else are we arong on?

[TRFrance]

I don't question Acts 2:38. I was baptized in Jesus name and received the Holy Ghost that evening.

But I haven't really attended church in years....I'd like to start again. The Apostolic church I went to believed in confessing all sins to the Pastor. It seemed really legalstic....maybe I'm wrong. I ended up feeling damned and didn't so much as read the bible for quite a few years.

I've been studying a lot the last few years but still have many questions. The Godhead is a tough one...deep down I feel I'm Oneness. But It's a big Idea to try to comprehend. I'm still not living the Life I should be.
First thing I'd suggest is to start looking for an Apostolic church to fellowship with. Be prayerful, and go to a few if you feel you have to, and let God lead to to one you feel comfortable in.

[Jermyn Davidson]

What did you see going on?

If you're going to dismiss tongues as being the initial evidence of the initial infilling of the Holy Ghost, you would do better to be convinced of it because of what is written in the word of God and not because of what you see in church.



What I saw was well-intentioned people standing around a Christian believer, everyone speaking in tongues at the same time, some touching his chest, his forehead- once even the throat area-- all in their zeal to get this guy to speak in tongues.

I have seen this happen many, many times-- though just once where someone was actually touching the guy's throat.

What I saw was a Preacher in the middle of his sermon speaking in tongues into the mic, without any attempt to step away from the mic.

I have seen this many, many times.

Sister So and So speaks in tongues and says the exact same syllables every time she speaks-- or every time I hear her speak. And I hear her speak many, many times.

People who can just speak in tongues out of the blue so to speak.


For just about all of my adult life I have seen incidents like those listed above, many times at various UPCI and WOTCC churches I have attended. I didn't think it was Biblically sound when I saw these things happen, and it caused me to doubt the authenticity of what was happening as it happened, some of the time. But then I would be afraid for having such thoughts in the first place so I'd rebuke the thoughts and concentrate on the name of Jesus, while praying for God's will to be done-- when the above events happened in a church setting.

Some times, I was the guy caught up in the clamor with every one else, praying for that soul to receive the Holy Ghost. But I have never, that I can think of, spoken in tongues into a mic while ministering in any way. I don't think I say the same thing every time I speak in tongues, but the last time I did speak I think I quenched the Spirit by trying to think about what I was saying. I don't speak in tongues just out of the blue, like in a conversation with someone.

[RandyWayne]

What I saw was well-intentioned people standing around a Christian believer, everyone speaking in tongues at the same time, some touching his chest, his forehead- once even the throat area-- all in their zeal to get this guy to speak in tongues.

I have seen this happen many, many times-- though just once where someone was actually touching the guy's throat.

What I saw was a Preacher in the middle of his sermon speaking in tongues into the mic, without any attempt to step away from the mic.

I have seen this many, many times.

Sister So and So speaks in tongues and says the exact same syllables every time she speaks-- or every time I hear her speak. And I hear her speak many, many times.

People who can just speak in tongues out of the blue so to speak.


For just about all of my adult life I have seen incidents like those listed above, many times at various UPCI and WOTCC churches I have attended. I didn't think it was Biblically sound when I saw these things happen, and it caused me to doubt the authenticity of what was happening as it happened, some of the time. But then I would be afraid for having such thoughts in the first place so I'd rebuke the thoughts and concentrate on the name of Jesus, while praying for God's will to be done-- when the above events happened in a church setting.

Some times, I was the guy caught up in the clamor with every one else, praying for that soul to receive the Holy Ghost. But I have never, that I can think of, spoken in tongues into a mic while ministering in any way. I don't think I say the same thing every time I speak in tongues, but the last time I did speak I think I quenched the Spirit by trying to think about what I was saying. I don't speak in tongues just out of the blue, like in a conversation with someone.

I have seen tongues apparently "forced" way too often as well, and yes, there is a fear in even doubting it, that has been drilled in.
Yes, people who received the holy ghost in the NT did speak in tongues (which was always told in a matter-of-fact way, not a "this IS the sign" -wouldn't you think it would if it was that important?), and people also had flames over their head as well. Why don't we demand THAT as a sign as well?
The bible says we will be known by our fruits (and guess what they are again?). Tongues are not mentioned as part of it......

[the raven]

Those who become ex-pentecostal simply show what is in their hearts. Be it offense, lack of first love, bitterness, etc. The bottom line is they no longer want truth nor the responsibility which comes with it.

Remember: At the judgment, one will give account to God of their own life and its obedience to God's word. Not reasons one could not obey based upon other reasons, however good they may be to the carnal mind.

If you do not want to live for God according to his word...be honest! If it is due to offense...GET OVER IT! "Great peace have they which love thy law and NOTHING shall offend them." Psalm 119:165

[pelathais]

Those who become ex-pentecostal simply show what is in their hearts. Be it offense, lack of first love, bitterness, etc. The bottom line is they no longer want truth nor the responsibility which comes with it.

Remember: At the judgment, one will give account to God of their own life and its obedience to God's word. Not reasons one could not obey based upon other reasons, however good they may be to the carnal mind.

If you do not want to live for God according to his word...be honest! If it is due to offense...GET OVER IT! "Great peace have they which love thy law and NOTHING shall offend them." Psalm 119:165
I think many folks have differing interpretations for what it means to be "Ex-Pentecostal" ...

For some, "Pentecostal" doesn't mean one's experience with God, but rather it's a way of describing the social climate that surrounds them at church. When you say "Pentecostal" to them they envision big hair and fashionable (or not!) suits.

When asked to describe "Pentecost" they describe a church service, Sunday School picnic or baptism. The sights, the sounds, the expressions on people's faces and the things that are said are described. They don't really delve into the metaphysical world, "Pentecostal" is a human culture for them like a Polka or Cinco de Mayo.

When they are hurt by "The System" they see the human drama involved.

Psalm 119:165 doesn't really apply here, IMHO. The "nothing shall offend them..." means that there will be no stumbling block that can deter their determined course. For myself, the "offense" that threw me for a loop actually deepened my faith and confidence in God Himself. However, it also knocked the blinders from my eyes that kept me from seeing Pentecostal culture for what it is at times.

[the raven]

I think many folks have differing interpretations for what it means to be "Ex-Pentecostal" ...

For some, "Pentecostal" doesn't mean one's experience with God, but rather it's a way of describing to social climate that surrounds them at church. When you say "Pentecostal" to them they envision big hair and fashionable (or not!) suits.

When asked to describe "Pentecost" they describe a church service, Sunday School picnic or baptism. The sights, the sounds, the expressions on people's faces and the things that are said. They don't really delve into the metaphysical world, "Pentecostal" is a human culture for them like a Polka or Cinco de Mayo.

When they are hurt by "The System" they see the human drama involved.

Psalm 119:165 doesn't really apply here, IMHO. The "nothing shall offend them..." means that there will be no stumbling block that can deter their determined course. For myself, the "offense" that threw me for a loop actually deepened my faith and confidence in God Himself. However, it also knocked the blinders from my eyes that kept me from seeing Pentecostal culture for what it is at times.


Interesting post and well written I might add. Having been through several "System" experiences and the human drama involved, I agree that if ones heart and motives are anchored in a true love for a relationship with God then the faith and confidence is deepened.

However being one of those who at one time left the Pentecostal/Apostolic experience via foster homes and night clubs and then returning to appropriate the grace and mercy of God again, I must say that at no time did I disagree with the culture (separation from the world, salvific doctrinal absolutes, etc.) of Pentecost but rather I chose to abdicate the relationship because of self will and the disposition I had towards sin and its convivial propensities.

Nonetheless, we will all give account of our deeds, motives and obedience to God's word at the judgment hence we ought to serve the Lord with fear rather than a humanistic, philosophical approach which is at odds with the scripture.

[Timmy]

What I saw was well-intentioned people standing around a Christian believer, everyone speaking in tongues at the same time, some touching his chest, his forehead- once even the throat area-- all in their zeal to get this guy to speak in tongues.

I have seen this happen many, many times-- though just once where someone was actually touching the guy's throat.

What I saw was a Preacher in the middle of his sermon speaking in tongues into the mic, without any attempt to step away from the mic.

I have seen this many, many times.

Sister So and So speaks in tongues and says the exact same syllables every time she speaks-- or every time I hear her speak. And I hear her speak many, many times.

People who can just speak in tongues out of the blue so to speak.
. . .

Same stuff goes on in the AG. Our Sister So and So gave the same exact message every single time -- same phrase repeated over and over. And the interpretation (when there was one) was always different! Weird.

[StillStanding]

What I saw was well-intentioned people standing around a Christian believer, everyone speaking in tongues at the same time, some touching his chest, his forehead- once even the throat area-- all in their zeal to get this guy to speak in tongues.

I have seen this happen many, many times-- though just once where someone was actually touching the guy's throat.

What I saw was a Preacher in the middle of his sermon speaking in tongues into the mic, without any attempt to step away from the mic.

I have seen this many, many times.

Sister So and So speaks in tongues and says the exact same syllables every time she speaks-- or every time I hear her speak. And I hear her speak many, many times.

People who can just speak in tongues out of the blue so to speak.


For just about all of my adult life I have seen incidents like those listed above, many times at various UPCI and WOTCC churches I have attended. I didn't think it was Biblically sound when I saw these things happen, and it caused me to doubt the authenticity of what was happening as it happened, some of the time. But then I would be afraid for having such thoughts in the first place so I'd rebuke the thoughts and concentrate on the name of Jesus, while praying for God's will to be done-- when the above events happened in a church setting.

Some times, I was the guy caught up in the clamor with every one else, praying for that soul to receive the Holy Ghost. But I have never, that I can think of, spoken in tongues into a mic while ministering in any way. I don't think I say the same thing every time I speak in tongues, but the last time I did speak I think I quenched the Spirit by trying to think about what I was saying. I don't speak in tongues just out of the blue, like in a conversation with someone.

You might get hammered for this post, but I have experienced the same thing. If others are honest, they'll agree too! This is the elephant in the room everyone wants to ignore!

[BrotherEastman]

For most people I think it boils down to personal taste and an honest attempt to interprete scripture the best they are able. Really, isn't that why there are so many different flavors and brands of Christianity. Christianity has become a niche market with every spin-off denomination and group that has it's own distinctives. Kind of like 7-UP. You can buy regular, diet, cherry, dark cherry, and today I even saw pomegranate 7-UP. Pomegranate? Huh? Who would like pomegranate 7-UP? Not me, but I'm sure somebody will like it. Churches are like that too aren't they? All churches cater to their base in terms of style/liturgy/ecclessiology. Birds of a feather like to flock together.

Plus, the Bible is more open to interpreation than most OP's want to admit. Not to mention lack of education and knowledge illogical logic, bad hermeneutic that result in faulty conclusions that go into formulating doctrinal positions. I believe there is absolute truth, but I doubt that any of us have it all figured out exactly right. So, sincere people attempt to be intellectually honest and due to their humanity come to different conclusions about biblical interpretation and over time they move away from each other in terms of regular fellowship and association. Once they do they find other people who agree with their theology and whose worship style/liturgy/ecclessiology they prefer and they become ex-whatever they were before.

I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily.
You need to try the pomegranite 7-up, we tried it during the Christmas Holiday and we were impressed.
Sorry Rico for mentioning Christmas in this thread of yours. LOL!

[BrotherEastman]

We are attached to our various social groupings in a variety of ways. We will often choose to leave one of those groups when it is no longer in our best interest to remain.

Many people remain in Pentecostal churches (or whatever church they attend) long after they have broken their philosophical attachments because remaining in the church is in the best interest of their family attachments.

Others simply have no choice except to remain because they are under age or - as I've seen at times - because they have an employment within the church body that they are reluctant to lose.

For myself, I had an employment, a position with some status, and a family network within Pentecost. But when I refused to "backslide" along with a few of those around me I lost my job, my position - which I was willing to accept, but then they turned at my family to continue and even intensify their attacks against them. This really disgusted me to the point that I had no fight left in me and I left.

I am somewhat disappointed with myself today, many years later. I have found out how that I had let down many other people who were still in the church and I handicapped the district leadership in the ability to govern affairs that they were charged with overseeing. I should have stayed and fought.

However, simultaneously to all of this; I was wrestling with the core belief system of the group. Jesse Williams, a man I had admired, had said something at about that time. He has said, "If you no longer believe the doctrine, then be a gentleman and leave." So for me at the time, the 'easy way out' was to "be a gentleman" and that made my departure a little easier.

The speaking schedules that I was tasked with arranging were now in the hands of men wanting to cover up the adultries of their Okalahoma buddies. Those Oklahoma buddies were given time to make the financial arrangements so that their pending divorces and loss of pastorates would not be as expensive as it would have been if I had spoken up.

Somehow, these guys were the "faithful" while I was the "Ex-Pentecostal..."

I'm still against pandering to adulterers and using church resources to enable what amounts to essentially a sex club. But this view makes me an "Ex-Pentecostal..."

I'm against "moving money around" to defraud the wife you've abandoned and I have some serious question about whose money that might have been - the church's? I don't know. All I know was that 13 weeks were required to make all of the arrangements after the wife found out. I was fired during the second week when I began to figure things out. The reason I was fired was because I was "hindering revival."

There are folks who may be reading this now who will remember a storied 13 week revival. I saw many of you dancing in those services. I didn't dance. Because you did dance, you are Pentecostals. Because I could not bring myself to dance, I am an "Ex Pentecostal."

That's the way it happened for me.
Your allowed to dance now. ;-) I appreciate ya Pel.

[BrotherEastman]

I have tremendous respect for the "official" leadership. I knew many of these men and worked with them for years. As I said, I let them down in many ways by remaining silent and just shuffling off the scene.

One of the reasons I remained silent was because the doctrinal questions I had made me feel isolated from them. Another reason was - and this is where I really dropped the ball - I tended to lump everyone in leadership into a "them" category and I failed to see them as individual Christians attempting to do some difficult jobs.

For a few years "after" I just did my best to lay low and stay away. As it was, things turned out in such a way that I was entirely vindicated and my persecutors are no all mostly gone - and a couple have even been "converted" to seeing things from my view; except where their own wrong doings were involved. They still attempt to justify themselves rather than seek justification in Jesus Christ.

I am on very good terms with most of the local district board. There's one fellow, an old friend, who still doesn't acknowledge my existence. He was never even close to what went on before and probably has no idea about the details. He's just one of those WPF types whose wires fry whenever they're confronted with something outside their comfy little paradigms.

I don't attend any church regularly though my wife and kids do and we support it financially. My work schedule is chaotic and involves a lot of afterhours and weekend work. That, plus the fact that the answers I give to questions are not the things a lot of people want to hear in the UPC means that it's probably best that I lay low.

I bear no grudge against the UPC itself or its leaders. I have important concerns about the social conditions in many places and the way that the gospel is presented and sometimes even misrepresented. The UPC was my whole life for most of my life. But because of the way it's built - the whole church crumbled around me when an Oklahoma preacher showed up wanting something from his secretary that his wife refused to give him.

Why is the UPC (and the Apostolic movement in general) designed to mess up my life in so many important ways just because someone of greater importance than me wanted kinky sex? Why was any of that even any of my business?

The answer is: Because that's the way we're designed to interact. We have such a preoccupation with the bedrooms of others that a few have a preoccupation with making their bedrooms important throughout the movement. This part still grosses me out.
Sheeesh, I bet I'd be suprised about what's going on.

[BrotherEastman]

What did you see going on?

If you're going to dismiss tongues as being the initial evidence of the initial infilling of the Holy Ghost, you would do better to be convinced of it because of what is written in the word of God and not because of what you see in church.
Good point.

[BrotherEastman]

Shawn, just start where you are........it's all about a relationship with Jesus and I guarantee you he's just waiting on you.
Great post Sis!

[ReformedDave]

Those who become ex-pentecostal simply show what is in their hearts. Be it offense, lack of first love, bitterness, etc. The bottom line is they no longer want truth nor the responsibility which comes with it.



What a stupid remark. Not wanting truth? The truth is that leaving was THE most difficult thing I've ever done. I left because I felt that I was moving toward greater truth not the lesser.

[Light]

And you are in error on both!:aaa

Br. you say freeatlast is wrong on both accounts. I say there is plenty of false doctrine in the pentecostal ranks yet 3 steppers continue to fellowship with these people.

How can one who believes one must obey all of acts 2:38 to be saved join them self with one who believes one is saved at repentance?

If one fellowship's with those that teach false doctrine one gives credence to their false doctrines and are as guilty of a lie as they are. (1 step, light, and friends of the bride doctrine's).

[Aquila]

I think that the more I study the more I realize some things are absolutely biblical (Oneness of God, Acts 2:38, modesty, etc.), but other things are open to interpretation (prophecy, modes of baptism, and the enter-relationship of repentance, baptism, and Holy Ghost infilling, specifics on dress and appearance).

I love the UPCI. But the more I study the more I realize that many of the UPCI's positions are dogmas built on tradition not strictly the Bible. I classify myself as being more of an independent Apostolic Pentecostal. People ask me if I'm liberal or conservative...neither...I'm a radical. ;)

[Light]

What a stupid remark. Not wanting truth? The truth is that leaving was THE most difficult thing I've ever done. I left because I felt that I was moving toward greater truth not the lesser.

What is that greater truth? Was your dad in error?

[ReformedDave]

What is that greater truth? Was your dad in error?

As much as it pains me I have to say I don't agree with what he taught.

[rgcraig]

As much as it pains me I have to say I don't agree with what he taught.

Doesn't take a thing away from your love and admiration of him!

[ReformedDave]

Doesn't take a thing away from your love and admiration of him!
You are exactly right.

[Light]

Doesn't take a thing away from your love and admiration of him!

No one said it did!!!!!!

[rgcraig]

No one said it did!!!!!!

Reformed Dave knew what I meant.

[ReformedDave]

Reformed Dave knew what I meant.

I revere him in many ways. He knew that.

[the raven]

What a stupid remark. Not wanting truth? The truth is that leaving was THE most difficult thing I've ever done. I left because I felt that I was moving toward greater truth not the lesser.

I have no doubt that leaving was the most difficult thing you have done - as it was with the prodigal and for anyone who has left truth, myself included. The issue is not leaving but returning. If indeed you feel that by leaving the essentiality of Acts 2:38, separation from the world and living a life pleasing to God; than you are open to deception.


As the only one in my family left serving God, I have seen the other 6 enter into various delusions and my father pass away in delusion. These issues are not semantics with me nor my personal interpretation. I was a backslider 14 years ago. I understand emphatically what it takes to come out from among them and be separate.

My remark was relegated as stupid, I will not descend to personal attacks however truth has never been based upon feelings (I will not get into a post modernist debate with anyone either). Truth is the word of God and a revelation of the same in which sincere, humble and thankful people partake.

[ReformedDave]

My remark was relegated as stupid, I will not descend to personal attacks however truth has never been based upon feelings (I will not get into a post modernist debate with anyone either). Truth is the word of God and a revelation of the same in which sincere, humble and thankful people partake.

You made it personal when you said Those who become ex-pentecostal simply show what is in their hearts. Be it offense, lack of first love, bitterness, etc. The bottom line is they no longer want truth nor the responsibility which comes with it.


I did not leave over petty disagreements over supposed 'holiness standards'. I left over our disagreement as to what TRUTH is. Believe me if I took the easy road I would have stayed. "Responsibility"? It is because of being responsible that I took the road that I did.

It's good to know that people who disagree with you are neither sincere, humble or thankful.

[the raven]

You made it personal when you said

I did not leave over petty disagreements over supposed 'holiness standards'. I left over our disagreement as to what TRUTH is. Believe me if I took the easy road I would have stayed. "Responsibility"? It is because of being responsible that I took the road that I did.

It's good to know that people who disagree with you are neither sincere, humble or thankful.


Again you are resorting to personal attacks. While I used a broad brush in my comments, it was dipped in the ink of experience both personal and ministerially. Your usage of ex-pentecostal leads me to conclude your rejection of the Acts 2:38 message and holiness both inward and outward - if this is not what you meant, then I stand corrected.

However, if it is a battle of wits you prefer, I refuse to fight an unarmed man.

Your sincere, humble and thankful servant!

The Raven

[Rico]

Again you are resorting to personal attacks. While I used a broad brush in my comments, it was dipped in the ink of experience both personal and ministerially. Your usage of ex-pentecostal leads me to conclude your rejection of the Acts 2:38 message and holiness both inward and outward - if this is not what you meant, then I stand corrected.

However, if it is a battle of wits you prefer, I refuse to fight an unarmed man.

Your sincere, humble and thankful servant!

The Raven

Oh Puhleeeeze! RD understands what you believe better than you do. :lol

[ReformedDave]

Again you are resorting to personal attacks. While I used a broad brush in my comments, it was dipped in the ink of experience both personal and ministerially. Your usage of ex-pentecostal leads me to conclude your rejection of the Acts 2:38 message and holiness both inward and outward - if this is not what you meant, then I stand corrected.

However, if it is a battle of wits you prefer, I refuse to fight an unarmed man.

Your sincere, humble and thankful servant!

The Raven

I don't reject any part of Scripture. I just don't happen to believe the OP position is the correct one. You are the one who stated that I do not want truth or responsibility. You are the one that implied that those who don't believe as you are not sincere, humble or thankful.

[the raven]

Oh Puhleeeeze! RD understands what you believe better than you do. :lol


Oh genderless one! Why hast thou chosen to bring the Reader's Digest into this discussion. Alas! If indeed Davie boy is that all understanding than his doctrine was most probably derived from the RD. Your help in establishing that fact is of inestimable value.

[Light]

I don't reject any part of Scripture. I just don't happen to believe the OP position is the correct one. You are the one who stated that I do not want truth or responsibility. You are the one that implied that those who don't believe as you are not sincere, humble or thankful.

Please tell me what is it about acts 2:38 that you don't believe? Not trying to cause trouble just want to know.

[the raven]

I don't reject any part of Scripture. I just don't happen to believe the OP position is the correct one. You are the one who stated that I do not want truth or responsibility. You are the one that implied that those who don't believe as you are not sincere, humble or thankful.


Forgive my lack of education in abbreviatory linguisticalitations. What pray tell is OP - the last time I heard this term it referred to Ocean Pacific clothing.

When one disregards the written truth are they then not choosing to be accountable to the word of God? I did not mean to imply that those who do not believe as I do are not sincere, humble and thankful. That statement should be read as fact not implication. Hopefully I have cleared the air on any mis-communication in regards to the statement.

[ReformedDave]

Please tell me what is it about acts 2:38 that you don't believe? Not trying to cause trouble just want to know.

I don't have a problem with any part of scripture, including Acts 2:38. I just don't agree with the traditional oneness position of a salvation formula. I will not get into that debate here. There have been millions (evangelastically speaking) of pages written about it already.

[ReformedDave]

Forgive my lack of education in abbreviatory linguisticalitations. What pray tell is OP - the last time I heard this term it referred to Ocean Pacific clothing.

When one disregards the written truth are they then not choosing to be accountable to the word of God? I did not mean to imply that those who do not believe as I do are not sincere, humble and thankful. That statement should be read as fact not implication. Hopefully I have cleared the air on any mis-communication in regards to the statement.


I believe that I'm more accountable to God's word than I've been before and if I was going to leave the UPC due to the attitudes of it's parishioners well you've just given me all the reason that I need.

[the raven]

Oneness pentecostal.


Very well, thank you! I see by your post that your difference is doctrinal and is based upon your feelings. A dangerous place for one to be. A further observation being that you were raised in a preachers home of which many children do not obtain the same revelation their parents have because of many mitigating circumstances. One of my cardinal fears for my daughter as she grows in ministry.

We shall see at the judgment. Hopefully your reasoning to the Lord Jesus Christ will stand the test. I choose to rest on His word.

[Light]

In my oppinion (and it matters little) the question should be "Becoming ex-apostolic"
In the book of John the 17th chapter as Jesus prayed he said I pray only for the apostles and for those that would believe on him through the words of the apostles. He said I pray not for the world.
He also said he sent the apostles into the world to teach just as the father sent Jesus into the world.

Any one that teaches any thing other than what Peter did as he stool with the 11 is not apostolic .

[the raven]

In my oppinion (and it matters little) the question should be "Becoming ex-apostolic"
In the book of John the 17th chapter as Jesus prayed he said I pray only for the apostles and for those that would believe on him through the words of the apostles. He said I pray not for the world.
He also said he sent the apostles into the world to teach just as the father sent Jesus into the world.

Any one that teaches any thing other than what Peter did as he stool with the 11 is not apostolic and or ex-apostolic.


Evidently this is some new variation of the King James version. Could you please explain the purpose for this activity in relation to the rest of your post?

[ReformedDave]

Very well, thank you! I see by your post that your difference is doctrinal and is based upon your feelings. A dangerous place for one to be. A further observation being that you were raised in a preachers home of which many children do not obtain the same revelation their parents have because of many mitigating circumstances. One of my cardinal fears for my daughter as she grows in ministry.

We shall see at the judgment. Hopefully your reasoning to the Lord Jesus Christ will stand the test. I choose to rest on His word.


My differences has nothing to do with feelings. It is purely doctrinal. And about your daughter, with you as a parent...she will leave.

[stmatthew]

Evidently this is some new variation of the King James version. Could you please explain the purpose for this activity in relation to the rest of your post?



:ursofunny

I think he meant "Stood". But THAT WAS FUNNY!!! :ursofunny

[Shawn]

Anyone care to list the Apostolic Doctrine or point me to a sight that does. I'd like to compare it to what I was taught when I attended church.

[StillStanding]

My differences has nothing to do with feelings. It is purely doctrinal. And about your daughter, with you as a parent...she will leave.

Wow, RD, that's getting personal! :eek:

[Timmy]

:popcorn2

I'm heading to the airport in a bit. If the ole laptop fits between my tummy and the seat in front of me, I may compose my magnum opus. (Couldn't get an exit row this time.)

[Baron1710]

My differences has nothing to do with feelings. It is purely doctrinal.

Would you mind explaining what you mean? Which doctrine are you refering to?

[DividedThigh]

i am sure even though i attend a upc church, i am ex extremeist, but not ex pente, lol

[the raven]

I believe that I'm more accountable to God's word than I've been before and if I was going to leave the UPC due to the attitudes of it's parishioners well you've just given me all the reason that I need.


I left the UPC many moons ago. I see you are in the habit of making excuses for your actions, a sure sign of immaturity in ones Christian walk.

You would do well to prayerfully study the bible and your fathers books so that you may attain truth as he did.

[StillStanding]

Anyone care to list the Apostolic Doctrine or point me to a sight that does. I'd like to compare it to what I was taught when I attended church.

My understanding of basic Apostolic doctrine is:

1. Oneness of godhead
2. Baptism in Jesus name
3. Baptism of Holy Ghost by speaking in tongues
3. Gifts of the spirit are for the church

After that, it goes a thousand different directions.

[ReformedDave]

I left the UPC many moons ago. I see you are in the habit of making excuses for your actions, a sure sign of immaturity in ones Christian walk.

You would do well to prayerfully study the bible and your fathers books so that you may attain truth as he did.

What excuse have I made?

[Brad Murphy]

:popcorn2

I'm heading to the airport in a bit. If the ole laptop fits between my tummy and the seat in front of me, I may compose my magnum opus. (Couldn't get an exit row this time.)

Where are you heading? I'll be at IAH this afternoon waiting for a flight if you happen to be coming through there.

[DividedThigh]

pretenders always err when they think they know and they dont , so they assume, critical mistake, dt

[ReformedDave]

Would you mind explaining what you mean? Which doctrine are you refering to?

I don't agree, as I stated, with the traditional OP position on the significance of Acts 2:38 as a salvation formula......and a few other things. :whistle

[ReformedDave]

After that, it goes a thousand different directions.


Really?!

[the raven]

My differences has nothing to do with feelings. It is purely doctrinal. And about your daughter, with you as a parent...she will leave.

I sincerely hope you are incorrect.

She received the Holy Ghost this year evidenced with speaking in other tongues.
She has begun memorizing scripture and fasting on her own.
Several times we have went on outreach because she asked daddy to take her.
She goes to public school and invites many of her friends as a matter of fact my right hand man and his family were won to God by my daughter.

She is 9 years old. My deepest prayer is that she will remain tender to God and the truth of His word. I realize I cannot force her to serve God BUT maybe I can live for God in such a way that it helps her to see the glory, beauty and privilege one has to carry the name of Jesus to the best of our ability.

[Light]

Evidently this is some new variation of the King James version. Could you please explain the purpose for this activity in relation to the rest of your post?

All through the 17th chapter Jesus said I have given them your (Fathers) word and your word is truth. In one verse he says and they have received your word. Jesus then goes on to say he manifested (made known) the name of the father to the apostles.

On the day of Pentecost Peter standing up with the 11 spoke the words given to all of the apostles by Jesus.


Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Where did he get these words? Words given by Jesus.

The apostles knew what the name of the father was because Jesus told them his name.[/COLOR]

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

[StillStanding]

Really?!
:snapout

[mizpeh]

Would you mind explaining what you mean? Which doctrine are you refering to?

The "reformed" in Daves name does not mean he went to reform school!:tease

[ReformedDave]

The "reformed" in Daves name does not mean he went to reform school!:tease

I'm sure some think I should have.......:whistle

[Timmy]

Where are you heading? I'll be at IAH this afternoon waiting for a flight if you happen to be coming through there.

New York.

Worked on my story a bit. Not much progress. Hard for me to concentrate on a plane.

[TRFrance]

My differences has nothing to do with feelings. It is purely doctrinal. And about your daughter, with you as a parent...she will leave.
Wow.
You have the audaciousness to make such a 'prediction' about someone else's child?

Amazing.:coffee2

[ReformedDave]

Wow.
You have the audaciousness to make such a 'prediction' about someone else's child?

Amazing.:coffee2

You are correct and I apologize. I let that guy get to me. I should not have and I'm sorry.

[RandyWayne]

So many "ex" pentecostals still have family members solidly in the UPC org?

[pelathais]

So many "ex" pentecostals still have family members solidly in the UPC org?
Yup. Though using "ex" to describe me is just one person's semantics (several persons, really). I don't consider myself "ex" pentecostal.

[RandyWayne]

Yup. Though using "ex" to describe me is just one person's semantics (several persons, really). I don't consider myself "ex" pentecostal.

OK, maybe "ex" UPC would be a better term. :)

[Rico]

Apparently, the half a dozen or so of you confessed ex-pentecostals are now dominating the forum and all the discussion. You're offending some of the other posters. Please, don't let this much power go to your heads. :D

[pelathais]

OK, maybe "ex" UPC would be a better term. :)
Yeah... except for those who are "ex" something else other than UPC (LOL).

And those that are "ex" one thing but now very much "pro" something else - like "ex-GIB" and now "pro-UPC."

[Brad Murphy]

New York.

Worked on my story a bit. Not much progress. Hard for me to concentrate on a plane.

Hah! I'm there too... we could have been on the same plane if you had a layover in Houston... I'm in Princeton, NJ for 2 days and then 3 days in NYC.

[Timmy]

Hah! I'm there too... we could have been on the same plane if you had a layover in Houston... I'm in Princeton, NJ for 2 days and then 3 days in NYC.

JetBlue is nonstop from Austin to JFK. Don't make me stop in Houston! Eew!

[Shawn]

Anyone care to list the Apostolic Doctrine or point me to a sight that does. I'd like to compare it to what I was taught when I attended church.

Thanks!

[berkeley]

What do you think are the stages one goes through in becoming an ex-pentecostal? We've all heard about the slippery, and I think we can agree it all starts with questioning things one has been taught. What do you think is the path one takes to becoming an ex-pentecostal. For clarity, by ex-pentecostal I mean someone who gets to the point of not believing in the infilling of the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues, baptism, and other apostolic doctrine. I am not referring to those who let dress standards go, but I will say that for some folks letting go of traditional OP dress standards is one of the first steps they take in becoming ex-pentecostal.

First thing a man does, he grows that rebelious facial hair...
first thing a damsel does, she cuts off her uncut hair...

(TnIC)