View Full Version : Was Joseph going to Divorce Mary?
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 12:30 PM
You guys do realize Joseph was going to DIVORCE Mary before they were ever married......
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph,(NOT MARRIED) before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Then Joseph her husband, being a just [man], and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily (He was reminded that a man could divorce his wife for fornication and at this point he thought she commited fornication and was going to divorce and put her away, he would have been free to remarry then)
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Jospeh... don't divorce her... she has not commited fornication.... and he then agreed to consumate the marriage and marry his WIFE
Pressing-On
07-19-2008, 12:34 PM
He was going to put her away privately because she could have been stoned to death for committing fornication under Jewish law. He loved her enough to hide her, even doubting her story.
The beauty is that the angel came to Joseph and said, "Joseph, thou Son of David."
In those few short words the Angel is verifying that prophecy is being fulfilled!!! Hallelujah!!!
More theological gymnastics, contortions and acrobatics ... and of course we have to buy Dr. Vaughn's ventriloquisms for Joseph.
Cindy
07-19-2008, 12:38 PM
You guys do realize Joseph was going to DIVORCE Mary before they were ever married......
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph,(NOT MARRIED) before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Then Joseph her husband, being a just [man], and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily (He was reminded that a man could divorce his wife for fornication and at this point he thought she commited fornication and was going to divorce and put her away, he would have been free to remarry then)
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Jospeh... don't divorce her... she has not commited fornication.... and he then agreed to consumate the marriage and marry his WIFE
But, then there was GOD!
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 12:43 PM
Can somone please quit making it personal.. quit slurring a man personally... and simply respond to the text and tell me where I'm wrong
Tell me
Was Mary considered Josephs wife?
Was Josephs Marys husband?
Did Joseph believe she committed fornication?
Was he going to divorce her privatly, he had to DIVORCE her because as I have shown God considered them husband and wife already upon engagement. To no longer be considered such he would have had to have divorced her.
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 12:44 PM
But, then there was GOD!
Granny,, is there a point there? trying to follow you
Pressing-On
07-19-2008, 12:46 PM
Can somone please quit making it personal.. quit slurring a man personally... and simply respond to the text and tell me where I'm wrong
Tell me
Was Mary considered Josephs wife? Yes, because they were espoused which is the same thing.
Was Josephs Marys husband? Yes, same answer.
Did Joseph believe she committed fornication? I think he was confused and also probably thought she did. He still loved her.
Was he going to divorce her privatly, he had to DIVORCE her because as I have shown God considered them husband and wife already upon engagement. To no longer be considered such he would have had to have divorced her.
The Bible said he was going to put her away "privately". I think he was going to hide her. I personally don't take that as a divorcement. He loved her or he wouldn't have made plans to save her life.
This is a special story for me. God put thoughts in my head for writing a play on this story. I can see everything. Beautiful!
The Bible said he was going to put her away "privately". I think he was going to hide her. I personally don't take that as a divorcement. He loved her or he wouldn't have made plans to save her life.
This is a special story for me. God put thoughts in my head for writing a play on this story. I can see everything. Beautiful!
For you, Sister. Enjoy! :)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XtiXiYMS86U
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 12:51 PM
Pressin On.. in the scriptures a man had to PUT AWAY his wife..... or DIVORCE her.. this is not a play on words.. he had Jewish Law behind him and he would have PUT HER AWAY.. DIVORCED HER to be faithful to the Law of his people...... of course he loved her... but he was not willing to take her in fornication.. it took an ANGEL to change his mind... had he been planning to keep her it would not have taken an ANGEL to assure him there was no fornication
Really, she has't committed sexual immorality (pornea/fornication) as you aptly admit ???
... now keep in mind that to nullify (divorce) the contract of marraige he was already in w/ her as part of the Jewish wedding ceremony he'd have to prove she was unfaithful.
Now let's look at the timeline ...
1. Sometime after the Betrothal, an angel of the Lord appeared to Mary at Nazareth and told her that she had been chosen to bear the Son of God.
Luke 1:
26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
This means my good doctor she was pledged to Joseph as his wife prior to being pregnant.
Now if fornication as you choose to define it ... not as the bible does ... as just a pre-marital sexual act ... and in this case .... not w/ the one you are betrothed to... or else Joseph would have no gripe to put her away ...
Then, technically, she did not commit fornication as you define it ... it would be some type of pseudo-adultery using our cultural bias.
It is for this reason, the threat of being stoned for sexual unfaithfulness/immorality, that it appears Mary did not tell Joseph of this event probably feeling that he would not have understood. Instead she went to visit her cousin Elizabeth who was in her sixth month of pregnancy.
It took a supernatural visit for Joseph to understand that she had not been unfaithful to him, or God, sexually.
Pressing-On
07-19-2008, 01:00 PM
Pressin On.. in the scriptures a man had to PUT AWAY his wife..... or DIVORCE her.. this is not a play on words.. he had Jewish Law behind him and he would have PUT HER AWAY.. DIVORCED HER to be faithful to the Law of his people...... of course he loved her... but he was not willing to take her in fornication.. it took an ANGEL to change his mind... had he been planning to keep her it would not have taken an ANGEL to assure him there was no fornication
He was going to divorce her "privately"? How could he put her away "privately" when the whole village knew they were espoused? Does the "Put her away" always mean "divorce".
Not arguing, just want to be clear on this?
This thread once again proves that you have laid down foundational premises of basic hermeneutics ... that include looking at original language, historical and cultural context...
Not being able to link the meaning of pornea and the rites of Jewish marriage, which includes betrothal and tradition of divorce ... tell me a lot about your approach.
This approach is more deplorable when the significance of the blood of Jesus bears not weight or that teaching this extrabiblical holey doctrine has serious effects in the lives of believers and their loved ones ... leading to immense frustrations and possibly walking away entirely
Dig deeper, bro ... w/ an open mind.
Cindy
07-19-2008, 01:34 PM
Granny,, is there a point there? trying to follow you
Joseph could not have divorced Mary, because God had a plan of redemption for mankind. JESUS.
Joseph could not have divorced Mary, because God had a plan of redemption for mankind. JESUS.
That about sums it up folks!
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 01:48 PM
Really, she has't committed sexual immorality (pornea/fornication) as you aptly admit ???
... now keep in mind that to nullify (divorce) the contract of marraige he was already in w/ her as part of the Jewish wedding ceremony he'd have to prove she was unfaithful.
Now let's look at the timeline ...
1. Sometime after the Betrothal, an angel of the Lord appeared to Mary at Nazareth and told her that she had been chosen to bear the Son of God.
Luke 1:
26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
This means my good doctor she was pledged to Joseph as his wife prior to being pregnant.
Now if fornication as you choose to define it ... not as the bible does ... as just a pre-marital sexual act ... and in this case .... not w/ the one you are betrothed to... or else Joseph would have no gripe to put her away ...
Then, technically, she did not commit fornication as you define it ... it would be some type of pseudo-adultery using our cultural bias.
It is for this reason, the threat of being stoned for sexual unfaithfulness/immorality, that it appears Mary did not tell Joseph of this event probably feeling that he would not have understood. Instead she went to visit her cousin Elizabeth who was in her sixth month of pregnancy.
It took a supernatural visit for Joseph to understand that she had not been unfaithful to him, or God, sexually.
Ok, break it down brother.. please
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 01:50 PM
That about sums it up folks!
Oh absolutely right.. but wait a minute now you guys are treading in dangerous waters..... your preaching predestination NOW and I LOVE IT... problem is you don't believe it.....
Jospeh definitly considered Divorcing her.. but your right he couldn't was not his choice to make... I couldnt agree more,, thank for you RICO for confirming Pre-destination...
amazing the leaps one will take to prove their point.. leaping all the way into the camp of us pre-des folks
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 01:51 PM
He was going to divorce her "privately"? How could he put her away "privately" when the whole village knew they were espoused? Does the "Put her away" always mean "divorce".
Not arguing, just want to be clear on this?
Look at all the references of Divorce in scripture... putting away
Pressing-On
07-19-2008, 01:57 PM
Look at all the references of Divorce in scripture... putting away
I do understand that - putting away. What I am trying to ask is - does is aways mean divorce?
The reason I ask is because Joseph was going to do that "privately". Everyone knew they were espoused, so how could he do it privately? It just made me wonder if there was another meaning, as some words in the Bible mean different things depending on the context.
What if it meant he was going to hide her until after the child was born and no one could have known for sure the time element from conception to birth?
Pressing-On
07-19-2008, 01:59 PM
For you, Sister. Enjoy! :)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XtiXiYMS86U
Thanks, now I'll be singing it all day!!! :ursofunny
Pressin On.. in the scriptures a man had to PUT AWAY his wife..... or DIVORCE her.. this is not a play on words.. he had Jewish Law behind him and he would have PUT HER AWAY.. DIVORCED HER to be faithful to the Law of his people...... of course he loved her... but he was not willing to take her in fornication.. it took an ANGEL to change his mind... had he been planning to keep her it would not have taken an ANGEL to assure him there was no fornication
I don't think he had to divorce her. I think he could have but also could have chosen to go ahead and marry her and let people think he was the father.
She was his espoused wife by legal contract if I understand the customs of the time and to terminate the engagement would have required legal action, a document called a "get" or "writing of divorcement."
Praxeas
07-19-2008, 02:00 PM
Can somone please quit making it personal.. quit slurring a man personally... and simply respond to the text and tell me where I'm wrong
Tell me
Was Mary considered Josephs wife?
Was Josephs Marys husband?
Did Joseph believe she committed fornication?
Was he going to divorce her privatly, he had to DIVORCE her because as I have shown God considered them husband and wife already upon engagement. To no longer be considered such he would have had to have divorced her.
Contractually they were married. Parents and couples back them made contractions to be married. Only the man could break it if he found his wive was not a virgin as promised
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 02:03 PM
Contractually they were married. Parents and couples back them made contractions to be married. Only the man could break it if he found his wive was not a virgin as promised
and thus giving credence to JESUS command.. that a marriage could end because of FORNICATION only.....
if she was not a virgin she was guilty of fornication
Contractually they were married? Every tried to get a marriage annulled? First question.. has the marriage been consumated.. if NO.. annulment granted... they were not married but they were considered Husband and Wife... with no consumation you have no coming together.. no two becoming one and you have NO MARRIAGE
Pressing-On
07-19-2008, 02:04 PM
I don't think he had to divorce her. I think he could have but also could have chosen to go ahead and marry her and let people think he was the father.
She was his espoused wife by legal contract if I understand the customs of the time and to terminate the engagement would have required legal action, a document called a "get" or "writing of divorcement."
Right, Sam, so how could he have done that "privately"?
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 02:04 PM
I don't think he had to divorce her. I think he could have but also could have chosen to go ahead and marry her and let people think he was the father.
She was his espoused wife by legal contract if I understand the customs of the time and to terminate the engagement would have required legal action, a document called a "get" or "writing of divorcement."
Your exactly right Sam... they had a Katubah., they have a promise and upon engagement in the eyes of God you are Husband and Wife.... even before you are married
Pressin On.. in the scriptures a man had to PUT AWAY his wife..... or DIVORCE her.. this is not a play on words.. he had Jewish Law behind him and he would have PUT HER AWAY.. DIVORCED HER to be faithful to the Law of his people...... of course he loved her... but he was not willing to take her in fornication.. it took an ANGEL to change his mind... had he been planning to keep her it would not have taken an ANGEL to assure him there was no fornication
How could he put her away, divorce for fornication (as you define it) ... which he would have to as her betrothed in the marriage contract .... if she was impregnated while she is legally his wife ... (See Luke 1)?
Had she been sexually unfaithful it would have been as his pledged wife. She did not get pregnant before but after.
Therefore, she would not have had unfaithful pre-marital relations as you define it ...but rather he'd be putting her away for ADULTERY.
Pornea again ... as you choose to ignore deals w/ sexual immorality of all stripes... and unfaithfulness.
Joseph was a 'just' man (verse 19). That is, he lived under the law of God. His obvious question here would have been, 'What does the law of God say?' Answer: (see Deuteronomy 24:1): he had to put Mary away. According to Jewish custom, a betrothal could only be terminated by 'divorce'. Indeed, Mary should have been stoned.
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 02:05 PM
Right, Sam, so how could he have done that "privately"?
There are many reasons.. perhaps their courtship was not as known as might think in our minds.. perhaps it was not public knowledge it could not have been for him to put her away privatly
Your exactly right Sam... they had a Katubah., they have a promise and upon engagement in the eyes of God you are Husband and Wife.... even before you are married
in the eyes of God or according to custom at the time?
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 02:08 PM
How could he put her away, divorce for fornication (as you define it) ... which he would have to as her betrothed in the marriage contract .... if she was impregnated while she is legally his wife ... (See Luke 1)?
Had she been sexually unfaithful it would have been as his pledged wife. She did not get pregnant before but after.
Therefore, she would not have had unfaithful pre-marital relations as you define it ...but rather he'd be putting her away for ADULTERY.
Joseph was a 'just' man (verse 19). That is, he lived under the law of God. His obvious question here would have been, 'What does the law of God say?' Answer: (see Deuteronomy 24:1): he had to put Mary away. According to Jewish custom, a betrothal could only be terminated by 'divorce'. Indeed, Mary should have been stoned.
and the point remains.. that when Jesus said a man can only divorce his wife for fornication.. he meant exactly what he said... just look at Joseph and Mary...
and no her affair after the engagement would have been fornication not adultery because they had not become one in the eyes of God yet... they had no consummated the marriage and though they carried the title husband and wife,, they did not carry the consummation and therefore they were still 2 separate individuals.
So again any infidelity would have been fornication until the completion of the marriage.. after the marriage it would have been adultery
Your exactly right Sam... they had a Katubah., they have a promise and upon engagement in the eyes of God you are Husband and Wife.... even before you are married
Once again proving that being pregnant by another while husband and wife ... legally would be ...????
Praxeas
07-19-2008, 02:09 PM
and thus giving credence to JESUS command.. that a marriage could end because of FORNICATION only.....
if she was not a virgin she was guilty of fornication
Contractually they were married? Every tried to get a marriage annulled? First question.. has the marriage been consumated.. if NO.. annulment granted... they were not married but they were considered Husband and Wife... with no consumation you have no coming together.. no two becoming one and you have NO MARRIAGE
You are trying to compare modern day marriages with semitic cultures 2000 years ago? If they were not really married then he could not divorce her.
Right, Sam, so how could he have done that "privately"?
She could have been sent away to another area where she was not known to raise the child as a single mother.
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 02:09 PM
in the eyes of God or according to custom at the time?
No it would be in the eyes of God because it was the ANGEL OF GOD from the PRESENCE OF GOD that recognized them and Husband and Wife
Sir ... you ignore the legal ramifications ...
One cannot get a divorce if not legally married.
Hello !!!!
You choose to throw away original language ... historical and contexual evidences in lieu of your modern day Webster's dictionary definition of fornication ... when it's PORNEA ... in the Greek ... and that encompasses many sexual sins ... including adultery.
You have no legs to stand on.
you are trying to compare modern day marriages with semitic cultures 2000 years ago? if they were not really married then he could not divorce her.
duh!!!!
He would have divorced her for being unfaithful to the marriage contract ... Adultery.
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 02:14 PM
Sir ... you ignore the legal ramifications ...
One cannot get a divorce if not legally married.
Hello !!!!
You choose to throw away original language ... historical and contexual evidences in lieu of your modern day Webster's dictionary definition of fornication ... when it's PORNEA ... in the Greek ... and that encompasses many sexual sins ... including adultery.
You have no legs to stand on.
Not true, I just dont need to create legs for my situation
Pressing-On
07-19-2008, 02:14 PM
She could have been sent away to another area where she was not known to raise the child as a single mother.
Oh, I see. Boy, God sure does bring his stuff around in the most, I can't think of the word, sometimes it's like - confusion. lol
Pressing-On
07-19-2008, 02:15 PM
duh!!!!
He would have divorced her for being unfaithful to the marriage contract ... Adultery.
I think this is where you get to spit. I saw the men make points and then spit on Fiddler on the Roof. :tease :killinme
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 02:15 PM
duh!!!!
He would have divorced her for being unfaithful to the marriage contract ... Adultery.
Wrong yet again.... he would have divorced her for PRE MARITAL sex because the marriage had not been consumated.... and the contract for marriage would have been violated and as such... a bill of divorcement to end the contract would have come forth..... and thus before he ever consumated the marred he could have ended the marriage
Not true, I just dont need to create legs for my situation
Sir ... I've got strong hermeneutics to prove this ... and believed it prior to my situation ...
You choose to lay aside whatever theological foundations you've learned as a student to prove your pet doctrine ... and that sir ... is deplorable if you want to teach this .....
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 02:17 PM
Sir ... I've got strong hermeneutics to prove this ... and believed it prior to my situation ...
You choose to lay aside whatever theological foundations you've learned as a student to prove your pet doctrine ... and that sir ... is deplorable if you want to teach this.
then perhaps I should teach... God didn't mean any of that stuff.. this 4th marriage is fine..... bye the way... Jesus really didn't mean those words... and hey who knows what he really meant.... lets all just be happy clappy.. everyone live according to your own desires and thus make Dan happy
then perhaps I should teach... God didn't mean any of that stuff.. this 4th marriage is fine..... bye the way... Jesus really didn't mean those words... and hey who knows what he really meant.... lets all just be happy clappy.. everyone live according to your own desires and thus make Dan happy
That's if Dan or any of us believed that marriage is not a lifetime commitment ... but none of us do ... more hyperbolic rhetoric.
You refuse to understand this type of contract requires two willing parties ...
and so gloat in the glow of self-righteousness but please don't believe that there are not strong theological interpretations that are plausible and BIBLE-BASED that fly in the face of what you are presenting.
I hope whoever debates you on this has the goods ... because your game is lacking ... and if they need some help ... tell them to give me a ring.
It would help if you'd stop speaking for God.
We currently use "fornication" to apply only to a single person and "adultery" to apply only to a married person. What words were used in the original languages in the Old Testament and New Testament and how did they apply at that time?
For example, the "adultery in the heart" spoken of in Matthew 5:27-28 has no limitation as to whether the person is single or married. Also Israel called the child bride of YHWH in Ezekiel chapter 16 is spoken of as being guilty of playing the harlot (verse 15), fornication (verse 15), committing whoredom (verse 17), adulery (verse 32), breaking wedlock (verse 38). Had Israel and YHWH consummated the marriage or were they engaged?
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 02:31 PM
That's if Dan or any of us believed that marriage is not a lifetime commitment ... but none of us do ... more hyperbolic rhetoric.
You refuse to understand this type of contract requires two willing parties ...
and so gloat in the glow of self-righteousness but please don't believe that there are not strong theological interpretations that are plausible and BIBLE-BASED that fly in the face of what you are presenting.
I hope whoever debates you on this has the goods ... because your game is lacking ... and if they need some help ... tell them to give me a ring.
It would help if you'd stop speaking for God.
Ok Dan.. lets make you Pastor Dan for the day
I'm a young man in your church, and I am in love with this girl who comes from bad seed... you know her and her family much better than I.. you encourage me not marry her.. almost plead with me not to... she isn't in church like she should be.. no real commitment but she does have the Holy Ghost or you guys told her she did because she spoke in tongues..... so I rebel against your advice and I marry the girl.... and sure enough just like you said she cheats on me.......
NOW --- was I rebellious in not being unequally yolked.. and am now reaping the seeds of the rebellion... or am I as you propose prime candidate for the next failed marriage... and it will all be blessed in the eyes of God...
I then with your blessings find a new girl.... and a year later in the middle of the night God begins dealing with my wife about her life... she gives her everything to God... and desires me to come home and raise our children together... but thanks to your advice.. I can't do that now
Or... if Dr. Vaughn is my Pastor and tells me SON.. you are reaping the seed of rebellion that you have sewn... come and spend time with me over the next few months around the church... lets get you healed...lets stay in the altars... lets put your wife before the Lord and trust God for her deliverance....
He tells me I cannot remarry... that I have a living wife... and I cannot be angry with him because this is the seeds I have sewn......and then miraculously God restores my marriage because my Pastor stood for ONE MARRIAGE
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 02:33 PM
We currently use "fornication" to apply only to a single person and "adultery" to apply only to a married person. What words were used in the original languages in the Old Testament and New Testament and how did they apply at that time?
For example, the "adultery in the heart" spoken of in Matthew 5:27-28 has no limitation as to whether the person is single or married. Also Israel called the child bride of YHWH in Ezekiel chapter 16 is spoken of as being guilty of playing the harlot (verse 15), fornication (verse 15), committing whoredom (verse 17), adulery (verse 32), breaking wedlock (verse 38). Had Israel and YHWH consummated the marriage or were they engaged?
Their marriage will not be consumated until the end of the age.. just as Christ and the gentile bride will not be married until the end of the age and yet we are called his wife already... powerful isnt it?
Dr. Vaughn
07-19-2008, 02:34 PM
We currently use "fornication" to apply only to a single person and "adultery" to apply only to a married person. What words were used in the original languages in the Old Testament and New Testament and how did they apply at that time?
For example, the "adultery in the heart" spoken of in Matthew 5:27-28 has no limitation as to whether the person is single or married. Also Israel called the child bride of YHWH in Ezekiel chapter 16 is spoken of as being guilty of playing the harlot (verse 15), fornication (verse 15), committing whoredom (verse 17), adulery (verse 32), breaking wedlock (verse 38). Had Israel and YHWH consummated the marriage or were they engaged?
Brother SAm.. 35 references to fornication in scriptures NOT ONE dealing with marriage
Brother Sam 82 references to Adultery in scripture ALL OF THEM dealing with marriage...
So I don't know, you be the judge of what Christ meant when he said fornication...
Hosea 4 - your daughters shall commit fornication and your spouses shall commit adultery
vBulletin® v3.8.5, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.