View Full Version : Tradition: Reflective of the Pentecostal Mindset?
Nahum
07-21-2008, 05:57 PM
Tradition
Is this video reflective of the Pentecostal Mindset?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw
Nahum
07-21-2008, 06:04 PM
You may ask, "how did this tradition get started?"
I'll tell you.
I don't know.
But it's a tradition.
And because of our traditions every one of us knows who he is, and what God expects him to do.
rgcraig
07-21-2008, 06:14 PM
Gotta love "Fidder On the Roof"!
Carpenter
07-21-2008, 08:22 PM
I saw fiddler on the roof a few years ago after having seen it as a youngster.
When I saw this discourse, my immediate thought was wow. I bet every OP preacher, pastor and leader had to have seen this at least once and...Don't they get it?
Also, you have to notice the rabbi's use of hebrew logic the same that Jesus used in many of his sermons and quotes. "A time is coming and now is..."
Tradition, tradition...gotta love it.
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
Carpenter
07-21-2008, 08:30 PM
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
Don't forget that scripture in Hezekiah where it says something about and thus bretheren, be ye not conformed to this world but be ye transformed by...TRADITION, TRADITION!!!
:ursofunny:ursofunny
Hoovie
07-21-2008, 09:09 PM
Always loved the Fiddler on the Roof!
I can see some similarities ...
"...we have always had our special types..."Yenta - the matchmaker"
"Reb - the beggar", and "most important of all our Rabbi!"
"the fiddler"
So, who are our "special types"?
theoldpaths
07-21-2008, 09:50 PM
2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
mizpeh
07-21-2008, 09:53 PM
2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
Just as not all the tradition of the Jews was the commandment of God neither is the traditions of the UPC the commandments of God nor the doctrine of the Apostles. We have to weed out the traditions of men from the commandments of God. :whistle
Thanks PP for the video.
theoldpaths
07-21-2008, 10:06 PM
Just as not all the tradition of the Jews was the commandment of God neither is the traditions of the UPC the commandments of God nor the doctrine of the Apostles. We have to weed out the traditions of men from the commandments of God. :whistle
Thanks PP for the video.
Jesus knew that issues would come up after He was gone up from the world and told those who would be leaders of his church the following...
Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
And we have a very practical example in Acts of an issue that came up that required Paul and Barnabbas to meet with the elders and Apostles at Jerusalem. Men discussed, made decisions, and put them in writing and it was communicated to all the gentle churches to be obeyed. What was to be obeyed? The decisions made by men. Now did God somehow indicate that He was pleased with the decisions made by men? Yes he did...
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.
Notice that more decisions were made than the one decision that they decided they needed to meet for - circumcision of the gentiles.
Its almost like some in here would have told Paul, Barnabbas, the elders, and the rest of the Apostles not to put something that was decided by men in writing to be communicated to all of the gentile churches to be obeyed; that if they did so they would be making a big mistake.
Perhaps they remembered the words of Jesus in Matt 18 and knew better than some of us.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Do you think the above scripture covers the decisions that men made above that were put in writing and communicated to all of the gentiles churches to obey?
I believe so.
We need to be careful lest Jesus say the same thing about us and our "traditions"
6 He (Jesus) answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Pragmatist
07-21-2008, 10:30 PM
Nothing wrong with traditions, just call them what they are instead of stretching scripture to make them Biblical mandates.
RandyWayne
07-21-2008, 11:22 PM
I have no problems with traditions either. They help to strengthen family bonds especially as they relate to holidays and other things. Even churches can have traditions which accomplish the same thing. Tradition is not a bad word!
But.... at some point tradition becomes doctrine, and it becomes very very bad. People also tend to take a tradition that is over 40-50 years and give it as much weight as something "that has always been". This is the problem with those who associate apostolic doctrine which began in the mid 20th century and put the full weight of biblical doctrine behind it.
Carpenter
07-21-2008, 11:26 PM
I have no problems with traditions either. They help to strengthen family bonds especially as they relate to holidays and other things. Even churches can have traditions which accomplish the same thing. Tradition is not a bad word!
But.... at some point tradition becomes doctrine, and it becomes very very bad. People also tend to take a tradition that is over 40-50 years and give it as much weight as something "that has always been". This is the problem with those who associate apostolic doctrine which began in the mid 20th century and put the full weight of biblical doctrine behind it.
There is a saying that, "The older I get, the better I used to be." People can say the exact same thing about tradition and culture and religion. Granpappy did it as a matter of necessity, or because it was the style of the day, or for whatever reason and as time passes the truth gets muddled because someone believes that a convenience and opinion of old is today a revelation of truth because it must have been because they can't remember the origin of it.
RandyWayne
07-21-2008, 11:29 PM
"Come off it, Mr Dent,", he said, "you can't win you know. You
can't lie in front of the bulldozer indefinitely." He tried to
make his eyes blaze fiercely but they just wouldn't do it.
Arthur lay in the mud and squelched at him.
"I'm game," he said, "we'll see who rusts first."
"I'm afraid you're going to have to accept it," said Mr Prosser
gripping his fur hat and rolling it round the top of his head,
"this bypass has got to be built and it's going to be built!"
"First I've heard of it," said Arthur, "why's it going to be
built?"
Mr Prosser shook his finger at him for a bit, then stopped and
put it away again.
"What do you mean, why's it got to be built?" he said. "It's a
bypass. You've got to build bypasses."
-small excerpt from chapter 1 of the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy
Such is the logic found in most older traditions.
Douglas Adams really was onto something!
Carpenter
07-21-2008, 11:56 PM
"Come off it, Mr Dent,", he said, "you can't win you know. You
can't lie in front of the bulldozer indefinitely." He tried to
make his eyes blaze fiercely but they just wouldn't do it.
Arthur lay in the mud and squelched at him.
"I'm game," he said, "we'll see who rusts first."
"I'm afraid you're going to have to accept it," said Mr Prosser
gripping his fur hat and rolling it round the top of his head,
"this bypass has got to be built and it's going to be built!"
"First I've heard of it," said Arthur, "why's it going to be
built?"
Mr Prosser shook his finger at him for a bit, then stopped and
put it away again.
"What do you mean, why's it got to be built?" he said. "It's a
bypass. You've got to build bypasses."
-small excerpt from chapter 1 of the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy
Such is the logic found in most older traditions.
Douglas Adams really was onto something!
Blast, I though this was going to be that wonderful account of Bucky Dent hitting that home run to beat the Red Sox for the Pennant!
timlan2057
07-22-2008, 05:37 AM
Blast, I though this was going to be that wonderful account of Bucky Dent hitting that home run to beat the Red Sox for the Pennant!
Uh ... it was a tiebreaker for the AL East Championship.
A_PoMo
07-22-2008, 08:03 AM
hehe.
Michael Phelps
07-22-2008, 08:19 AM
2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
Can you name the 'traditions' Paul was referring to?
I'm sure he meant traditions that have been in effect since before 1945.
Baron1710
07-22-2008, 08:24 AM
2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
Can you name the 'traditions' Paul was referring to?
I'm sure he meant traditions that have been in effect since before 1945.
Maybe we could look at what the verse actually says...naaa it would be better if we could make up rules and then call them traditions.
rgcraig
07-22-2008, 08:27 AM
Here's another version of that passage:
2 Thessalonians 3:6
New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
Copyright © 1996, 1998 by International Bible Society
Paul Warns Those Who Do Not Want to Work
6 Brothers and sisters, here is a command we give you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Keep away from every believer who doesn't want to work. Keep away from anyone who doesn't live up to the teaching you received from us.
Michael Phelps
07-22-2008, 08:29 AM
Maybe we could look at what the verse actually says...naaa it would be better if we could make up rules and then call them traditions.
Yep, this verse gives us carte blanche to preach against women wearing pants, jewelry, only one service on Sunday, men wearing beards, etc.
Paul told us to not forsake the "traditions", i.e., Articles of Faith!
Michael Phelps
07-22-2008, 08:31 AM
Here's another version of that passage:
2 Thessalonians 3:6
New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
Copyright © 1996, 1998 by International Bible Society
Paul Warns Those Who Do Not Want to Work
6 Brothers and sisters, here is a command we give you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Keep away from every believer who doesn't want to work. Keep away from anyone who doesn't live up to the teaching you received from us.
Sister, this is not valid, it's not KJV.
If the KJV was good enough for the Apostles, it's good enough for me!
Baron1710
07-22-2008, 08:32 AM
Yep, this verse gives us carte blanche to preach against women wearing pants, jewelry, two services on Sunday, men wearing beards, etc.
Paul told us to not forsake the "traditions", i.e., Articles of Faith!
Woo hoo start preaching. :ursofunny
rgcraig
07-22-2008, 08:49 AM
Sister, this is not valid, it's not KJV.
If the KJV was good enough for the Apostles, it's good enough for me!
Brother, it sure puts a different spin on it though, doesn't it?
There might be a lot of saints we really need to stay away from!
theoldpaths
07-22-2008, 09:47 PM
Here's another version of that passage:
2 Thessalonians 3:6
New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
Copyright © 1996, 1998 by International Bible Society
Paul Warns Those Who Do Not Want to Work
6 Brothers and sisters, here is a command we give you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Keep away from every believer who doesn't want to work. Keep away from anyone who doesn't live up to the teaching you received from us.
What verses does the NIV omit and most new versions - Mat 17:21; 18:11; 23:14; Mark 7:16; 9:44, 46; 11:26; 15:28; Luke 17:36; 23:17; John 5:4; Acts 8:37; 24:7; 28:29; and Romans 16:24 - just like the JW's NWT
I wouldn't put a whole lot of faith in a translation based upon the Minority Text as opposed to the Majority Text like the KJV.
theoldpaths
07-22-2008, 10:06 PM
Can you name the 'traditions' Paul was referring to?
I'm sure he meant traditions that have been in effect since before 1945.
And I'm sure he meant the ordinances that were created by men when Paul, Barnabas, the elders and the apostles at Jerusalem met, discussed, decided, put in writing, and communicated to all of the gentiles churches to obey.
Act 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem
Strong's - decree:
G1378
δόγμα
dogma
dog'-mah
From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.
Strong's - for to keep
G5442
φυλάσσω
phulassō
foo-las'-so
Probably from G5443 through the idea of isolation; to watch, that is, be on guard (literally or figuratively); by implication to preserve. obey, avoid: - beware, keep (self), observe, save. Compare G5083.
Notice that Paul said that they were ordained by who? The apostles and elders - men - but they were still expected to obey them.
Kinda reminds me of the following scripture...
1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
Nahum
07-22-2008, 11:29 PM
“A tradition without intelligence is not worth having.”
T.S. Eliot
Nahum
07-22-2008, 11:30 PM
“Tradition is an explanation for acting without thinking”
Grace McGarvie
Nahum
07-22-2008, 11:30 PM
“Tradition is a guide and not a jailer”
William Somerset Maugham
theoldpaths
07-24-2008, 07:10 PM
Never heard of those people.
2Th 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
The Apostle Paul
Act 15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
OnTheFritz
07-24-2008, 07:22 PM
Never heard of those people.
2Th 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
The Apostle Paul
Act 15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
You've never heard of T.S. Eliot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._S._Eliot).....??
I particularly like this one:
“Tradition is an explanation for acting without thinking”
Grace McGarvie
That is certainly not the case in every instance, but it sure explains a lot.
Rhoni
07-24-2008, 07:24 PM
You've never heard of T.S. Eliot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._S._Eliot).....??
I particularly like this one:
“Tradition is an explanation for acting without thinking”
Grace McGarvie
That is certainly not the case in every instance, but it sure explains a lot.
it certainly does...:snapout
theoldpaths
07-24-2008, 07:57 PM
“Tradition is an explanation for acting without thinking”
Grace McGarvie
And just like the early church leadership in the book of Acts came together to discuss, make decisions, put the decisions in writing, and communicate the decisions to the Gentile church's to obey; so too the Church today can do the same when issues arise where decisions need to be made.
Are we in the same church as in the book of Acts or aren't we?
Pro 24:21 My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:
Who was the king? The annointed leader. Are there annointed leaders today? Yes there are. God's annointing are upon men to lead in God's NT church today.
Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
As God's people were to respect and obey the King in the OT, ...
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
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