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Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 01:54 PM
To all of the wonderful friends and foes who post on this forum.... I want to say first of all how sorry I am if my words have offended either of you. I suppose out here you feel more at liberty to let your expressions lose since there is no personal interaction, there's no facial expressions to tell when you have hurt someone, there's no fear of having to interact with that person in the future and thus you're not as careful in the way you speak.....

I would like for this board to know... one minute with me in person and you and I would be friends for life. Anyone who has ever met me will tell you there is not a time when my smile is not from ear to ear, making everyone laugh and keeping peoples Spirits high... I love people, I love Gods church and most importantly I love God.

Here is my question..... If someone like myself is a Fundametalist.. and what I mean by that is, we take a very literal interpretation of Gods Word.. we don't do well with "We'll it really means this or that or in the original it doesn't mean that.. we find safety in taking as much of the Word at face value as possible... and if by chance we have it wrong.. we feel facing God without Greek or Hebrew knowledge would not be counted against us.....

Rather than try to find ways "Around" the Word... I am one who feels safe in reading the WORD and living it exactly as I read it... I am not condoning ignorance.. education is something I preach and believe in vehemntly.. but sometimes I do wonder if "much learning has not made us mad."

Now, my question for this board.... why is it that if someone like me who is very fundamental is so reviled? I realize my opinions are contrary to the mainstream but is was not so just years ago with my forefather.....

Had I made these statements just 30 years ago

A woman should not preach
Men should not remarry if they are divorced
Women should not cut their hair

my statements would have been in accordance with the times... but of course now in this age those statements are considered mean and unmerciful

When it comes to the marriage issue,, it is not easy for me to make the stand I do... My father is on his 4th, my mother is on her 3rd, my grandmother is on her 2nd and I was ALMOST on my 2nd... before I heard a man of God preach on the issue of Marriage and Divorce.. before that time I TRULY did not have a strong biblical foundation on the issue....

I made my stand after much study and soul searching..... for me to tell you that I believe my own Father is in sin.. is NOT EASY...... but I feel compelled to face God with a clear conscience that I said it AS I SAW IT...

If God is going to judge us by obeying what we read or obeying what we should have known the Passage REALLY MEANT.. will we not all be in trouble?

Again.,,, why is there no more room in the kingdom for men such as myself who believe in MERCY.. were it not for his mercy I would on my way to hell in a hurry... I LOVE MERCY I believe IN MERCY but I do not believe that MERCY is a LICENSE to deliberately disobey Gods Word.....

For the record.. if a man and woman has remarried,, I would always counsel them to remain as you are.... but with the knowledge you now have you must NEVER REMARRy.... Is that being cruel? Is that being hateful? or is that being faithful to Gods Word....

I bless all of you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ

Your Brother in Christ

[/LIST]

DividedThigh
07-22-2008, 01:56 PM
i dont consider a fundamentalist out of touch brother, but i do differ on some things with you, be blessed, dt

rgcraig
07-22-2008, 01:59 PM
.. and if by chance we have it wrong.. we feel facing God without Greek or Hebrew knowledge would not be counted against us.....


I guess for me it would be you have the Greek & Hebrew resources to help interpret the scripture as they were meant, so why wonder.

Ferd
07-22-2008, 02:00 PM
Im a happy funamentalist....


I have issues with serpent seed and anyone who follows Branham. so thats my personal issue....and its a pretty big issue as it has touched my life.

im not very tollerant of some things.

But I pretty much like fundalmentalists. I think they are pretty cool

Praxeas
07-22-2008, 02:02 PM
What's the greek word for HOG!

Is this Damage Control?

Pro31:28
07-22-2008, 02:03 PM
To all of the wonderful friends and foes who post on this forum.... I want to say first of all how sorry I am if my words have offended either of you. I suppose out here you feel more at liberty to let your expressions lose since there is no personal interaction, there's no facial expressions to tell when you have hurt someone, there's no fear of having to interact with that person in the future and thus you're not as careful in the way you speak.....

I would like for this board to know... one minute with me in person and you and I would be friends for life. Anyone who has ever met me will tell you there is not a time when my smile is not from ear to ear, making everyone laugh and keeping peoples Spirits high... I love people, I love Gods church and most importantly I love God.

Here is my question..... If someone like myself is a Fundametalist.. and what I mean by that is, we take a very literal interpretation of Gods Word.. we don't do well with "We'll it really means this or that or in the original it doesn't mean that.. we find safety in taking as much of the Word at face value as possible... and if by chance we have it wrong.. we feel facing God without Greek or Hebrew knowledge would not be counted against us.....

Rather than try to find ways "Around" the Word... I am one who feels safe in reading the WORD and living it exactly as I read it... I am not condoning ignorance.. education is something I preach and believe in vehemntly.. but sometimes I do wonder if "much learning has not made us mad."

Now, my question for this board.... why is it that if someone like me who is very fundamental is so reviled? I realize my opinions are contrary to the mainstream but is was not so just years ago with my forefather.....

Had I made these statements just 30 years ago

A woman should not preach
Men should not remarry if they are divorced
Women should not cut their hair

my statements would have been in accordance with the times... but of course now in this age those statements are considered mean and unmerciful

When it comes to the marriage issue,, it is not easy for me to make the stand I do... My father is on his 4th, my mother is on her 3rd, my grandmother is on her 2nd and I was ALMOST on my 2nd... before I heard a man of God preach on the issue of Marriage and Divorce.. before that time I TRULY did not have a strong biblical foundation on the issue....

I made my stand after much study and soul searching..... for me to tell you that I believe my own Father is in sin.. is NOT EASY...... but I feel compelled to face God with a clear conscience that I said it AS I SAW IT...

If God is going to judge us by obeying what we read or obeying what we should have known the Passage REALLY MEANT.. will we not all be in trouble?

Again.,,, why is there no more room in the kingdom for men such as myself who believe in MERCY.. were it not for his mercy I would on my way to hell in a hurry... I LOVE MERCY I believe IN MERCY but I do not believe that MERCY is a LICENSE to deliberately disobey Gods Word.....

For the record.. if a man and woman has remarried,, I would always counsel them to remain as you are.... but with the knowledge you now have you must NEVER REMARRy.... Is that being cruel? Is that being hateful? or is that being faithful to Gods Word....

I bless all of you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ

Your Brother in Christ

[/LIST]

I appreciate your convictions, such as they are. I do wonder though about women in the church, in your opinion what is their place?

Ferd
07-22-2008, 02:05 PM
I appreciate your convictions, such as they are. I do wonder though about women in the church, in your opinion what is their place?

im personally hoping for a divergence from Branham....

Praxeas
07-22-2008, 02:07 PM
The man is not riveled. And certainly not for his views. It's a personal thing. It's the way you post to others. The moment you came to this board you were abrasive and then when folks responded to you in kind suddenly you were Mr Innocent being attacked by everyone for your views. Good grief

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 02:09 PM
Ferd, thanks for your response.... may I ask you a personal question? If we can just drop all the snideness and smugness and actually have a pleasant conversation.. that would be nice...

I respect completely your disagreement with Serpent Seed.. I was once in your shoes... the very thought of it repulsed me as I thought it was almost pornographic to talk about... and preached against Serpent Seed publically.....

As you know I have changed my opinion.. thank God for America.. lol... anyhow since those times I am amazed how people get so upset by this doctrine when it is a completely non essential issue...

For example... I am with you if we are talking someones eternal soul,, their salvation... I am with you in being adamant... but if a person sees things different in the book of Revelations differently that I do... I am not gonna part fellowship or get upset about it..... and if someone like me sees the event sin Genesis different than you do.. does it really matter? Should it upset you as much as it does?

Help me understand.. why the anger and disgust with the subject? Honestly, if it does not pertain to salvation why get so upset about it... you guys don't get this upset of Trinitarianism, a doctrine that presents a false God for people to worship...... for the life of me.. I don't understand how the doctrine of "Original Sin or Serpent Seed" whichever you choose to call it is so upsetting for people... if you tell me you're a preterist or a post trib believer..... I am not going to get disgusted and furious... you are still my brother.. we both believe the same gospel of salvation....

Ok, sorry for my ramblings

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 02:14 PM
What's the greek word for HOG!

Is this Damage Control?

PRAX, I am breaking a promise here as I promised not to respond anymore.. I ask for your forgiveness for breaking this promise.. but in the Spirit of this thread I will gladly respond.

May I please clear the air about the whole hog incidence? Would you allow me the chance,,,thanks

In speaking to someone about Pentecostal services where flesh is out of control, people are losing control of themselves.. I simply said.. I do not believe that type of service is accepted or advocated in the NT..... then someone tells me "Well. you will preach in those churches" as if to say I was being hypocritical for preaching in Pentecostal churches..... I gave them a ONE SENTENCE response that I should have elaborated on more....

I referred to my belief that if a Catholic Church invited me to preach today I WOULD GO as adamant as I am against the Catholic Church.. WHY? Because "I would preach in a hogpen. doesn't mean I will become a Hog"

In No way did I mean to call the Pentecostal church HOGS...I was trying to illustrate a point.. that I can preach anywhere and not take on their beliefs or nature......

IF the Baptist church invited me today.. I would go but I wouldnt become a baptist..... I preach for many Pentecostal because we agree on soooo many things from the Godhead, baptism, Receiving the Holy Ghost,, Holiness but it doesnt mean I have to become a Pentecostal for doing so.....

Baron1710
07-22-2008, 02:16 PM
Are women allowed to preach?

Praxeas
07-22-2008, 02:16 PM
Ferd, thanks for your response.... may I ask you a personal question? If we can just drop all the snideness and smugness and actually have a pleasant conversation.. that would be nice...

I respect completely your disagreement with Serpent Seed.. I was once in your shoes... the very thought of it repulsed me as I thought it was almost pornographic to talk about... and preached against Serpent Seed publically.....

As you know I have changed my opinion.. thank God for America.. lol... anyhow since those times I am amazed how people get so upset by this doctrine when it is a completely non essential issue...

For example... I am with you if we are talking someones eternal soul,, their salvation... I am with you in being adamant... but if a person sees things different in the book of Revelations differently that I do... I am not gonna part fellowship or get upset about it..... and if someone like me sees the event sin Genesis different than you do.. does it really matter? Should it upset you as much as it does?

Help me understand.. why the anger and disgust with the subject? Honestly, if it does not pertain to salvation why get so upset about it... you guys don't get this upset of Trinitarianism, a doctrine that presents a false God for people to worship...... for the life of me.. I don't understand how the doctrine of "Original Sin or Serpent Seed" whichever you choose to call it is so upsetting for people... if you tell me you're a preterist or a post trib believer..... I am not going to get disgusted and furious... you are still my brother.. we both believe the same gospel of salvation....

Ok, sorry for my ramblings
Why does he or anyone hae to be so angry with a subject just because they find it false doctrine? Are you angry and disgusted with certain Pentecostal subjects? You ever think that what people are getting upset at is not the subject but how you approach them. Like you called all us Pentecostals hogs

SDG
07-22-2008, 02:20 PM
Dr. Vaughn ... you have a picture of your wife preaching on your Myspace ...

captioned "Preaching in TN" ...

IM REALLY CONFUSED!!!

I won't post it for respect of her privacy.

Praxeas
07-22-2008, 02:21 PM
PRAX, I am breaking a promise here as I promised not to respond anymore.. I ask for your forgiveness for breaking this promise.. but in the Spirit of this thread I will gladly respond.

May I please clear the air about the whole hog incidence? Would you allow me the chance,,,thanks

In speaking to someone about Pentecostal services where flesh is out of control, people are losing control of themselves.. I simply said.. I do not believe that type of service is accepted or advocated in the NT..... then someone tells me "Well. you will preach in those churches" as if to say I was being hypocritical for preaching in Pentecostal churches..... I gave them a ONE SENTENCE response that I should have elaborated on more....

I referred to my belief that if a Catholic Church invited me to preach today I WOULD GO as adamant as I am against the Catholic Church.. WHY? Because "I would preach in a hogpen. doesn't mean I will become a Hog"

In No way did I mean to call the Pentecostal church HOGS...I was trying to illustrate a point.. that I can preach anywhere and not take on their beliefs or nature......

IF the Baptist church invited me today.. I would go but I wouldnt become a baptist..... I preach for many Pentecostal because we agree on soooo many things from the Godhead, baptism, Receiving the Holy Ghost,, Holiness but it doesnt mean I have to become a Pentecostal for doing so.....
Im glad you finally explained that. You don't feel that some of your posts have been abrasive? You know that works both ways. It's not poor little you posting on your favorite topics and then us getting mad because you are a fundie and we are not. If you can't see that then I don't know what else to say. I tried to engage you before and I cast no insults, but you just ignored post after post after post. Finally you made light of me trying to get you to respond and then you said I was to aggressive.

Dr I can and am willing to take you on any topic, but as long as there are no personal attacks and as long as you actually address my points or counter points. Im not angry over serpent seed, but I think it is false doctrine. I don't have to be angry or disgusted in order to find that something is unbiblical

Ferd
07-22-2008, 02:22 PM
Ferd, thanks for your response.... may I ask you a personal question? If we can just drop all the snideness and smugness and actually have a pleasant conversation.. that would be nice...

I respect completely your disagreement with Serpent Seed.. I was once in your shoes... the very thought of it repulsed me as I thought it was almost pornographic to talk about... and preached against Serpent Seed publically.....

As you know I have changed my opinion.. thank God for America.. lol... anyhow since those times I am amazed how people get so upset by this doctrine when it is a completely non essential issue...

For example... I am with you if we are talking someones eternal soul,, their salvation... I am with you in being adamant... but if a person sees things different in the book of Revelations differently that I do... I am not gonna part fellowship or get upset about it..... and if someone like me sees the event sin Genesis different than you do.. does it really matter? Should it upset you as much as it does?

Help me understand.. why the anger and disgust with the subject? Honestly, if it does not pertain to salvation why get so upset about it... you guys don't get this upset of Trinitarianism, a doctrine that presents a false God for people to worship...... for the life of me.. I don't understand how the doctrine of "Original Sin or Serpent Seed" whichever you choose to call it is so upsetting for people... if you tell me you're a preterist or a post trib believer..... I am not going to get disgusted and furious... you are still my brother.. we both believe the same gospel of salvation....

Ok, sorry for my ramblings

DV, you are the first I've heard saying it isn't essential to start with. So you have to understand therefore that if you are a branhamite, then I am a bit skeptical.

Everyone I have met that got involved in this ended up in the ditch. It caused no small ruckus with some folk I dearly love.

ive debated it 9 ways from sunday. it isn't a matter of it being pornographic, its a matter of this doctrine leading to vastly divergent understanding of the grace of God.... to the point that it effectively eliminates the Grace of God.

so, there you have it, all the times I have encountered this, it really is essential and it really gets in the way of sound doctrine. It is vastly different than someone's understanding of Revelations.

SDG
07-22-2008, 02:31 PM
I'm sorry the pictures of her preaching are on her MySpace

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=266582404

Praxeas
07-22-2008, 02:32 PM
DV, you are the first I've heard saying it isn't essential to start with. So you have to understand therefore that if you are a branhamite, then I am a bit skeptical.

Everyone I have met that got involved in this ended up in the ditch. It caused no small ruckus with some folk I dearly love.

ive debated it 9 ways from sunday. it isn't a matter of it being pornographic, its a matter of this doctrine leading to vastly divergent understanding of the grace of God.... to the point that it effectively eliminates the Grace of God.

so, there you have it, all the times I have encountered this, it really is essential and it really gets in the way of sound doctrine. It is vastly different than someone's understanding of Revelations.
I've had debates with Branham followers for years and the serpent seed doctrine was always very very important to them

Baron1710
07-22-2008, 02:32 PM
I'm sorry the pictures of her preaching are on her MySpace

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=266582404

He better get that woman under submission. Quick.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 02:35 PM
I appreciate your convictions, such as they are. I do wonder though about women in the church, in your opinion what is their place?

Ok,, you guys just love getting me in trouble don't you?

You see you ask my opinion and I will give it and this board will call me hateful and out of touch... but here is my opinion

I believe a womans place first and foremost is as the nuturer of her children and the helper of her husband... you will forgive me if that sounds archaic

In the church her role is as Paul said.. Pauls mentions the woman praying and Prophesying.... with her head covered in reverence to her head which is her husband... there is a strong admonition for women to be used of God in prayer and the gifts of the Spirit.... and as workers she is simply forbidden because of "the beginning" to have any authority over a man..... not that the man is better than her but he is her head... I KNOW, I KNOW.. how dare I say such things..... but she is allowed to TEACH THE WOMEN,, Paul encourages the older women to teach the younger women.... she does wonderfully in connecting with children and training them in the ways of God... but when she stands to bring forth doctrine, rebuke, correction, exhortation she is stepping in an authorative position over the souls of men and God has forbidden it.... sorry.. no harm intended

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 02:38 PM
Dr. Vaughn ... you have a picture of your wife preaching on your Myspace ...

captioned "Preaching in TN" ...

IM REALLY CONFUSED!!!

I won't post it for respect of her privacy.

I can also show you pictures of me shouting all over the church in days gone by.. My wife and I have changed our understanding of scripture since those days.. my wife now teaches women only and she is the best in the world at it.. amazing lady..

Praxeas
07-22-2008, 02:38 PM
I'm sorry the pictures of her preaching are on her MySpace

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=266582404

Co Pastors?

SDG
07-22-2008, 02:39 PM
Teach the women ????...

There is one pic of her PREACHING (captioned as such) ... with a man in the background.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 02:41 PM
I've had debates with Branham followers for years and the serpent seed doctrine was always very very important to them

PRAX, very important in their understanding of the purpose of Jesus "shedding his blood" but not ESSENTIAL ....

The Serpent Seed people have been treated like bastard children because of this belief.. I was one of those who thought of them as repulsive because of the church I was raised in.... it was soo funny once I came to Serpent Seed understanding I sat down with my Pastor and had a looooong talk with him about it.. when it was over here was his words "That's not how I always heard it, let's not divide fellowship over that"

His ideas of Serpent Seed was vastly different than what we actually believe.

Pro31:28
07-22-2008, 02:42 PM
Ok,, you guys just love getting me in trouble don't you?

You see you ask my opinion and I will give it and this board will call me hateful and out of touch... but here is my opinion

I believe a womans place first and foremost is as the nuturer of her children and the helper of her husband... you will forgive me if that sounds archaic

In the church her role is as Paul said.. Pauls mentions the woman praying and Prophesying.... with her head covered in reverence to her head which is her husband... there is a strong admonition for women to be used of God in prayer and the gifts of the Spirit.... and as workers she is simply forbidden because of "the beginning" to have any authority over a man..... not that the man is better than her but he is her head... I KNOW, I KNOW.. how dare I say such things..... but she is allowed to TEACH THE WOMEN,, Paul encourages the older women to teach the younger women.... she does wonderfully in connecting with children and training them in the ways of God... but when she stands to bring forth doctrine, rebuke, correction, exhortation she is stepping in an authorative position over the souls of men and God has forbidden it.... sorry.. no harm intended

No harm taken,

I was just curious about your feelings on this. I find it interesting that Women not preaching, and lack of remarriage, and no hair-cutting are three things that you decided to point out in your post. It seems as if you are looking to cause controversy.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 02:45 PM
He better get that woman under submission. Quick.

Hey Baron, I understand you are being facetious but may I say something to you? My wife is in such submission. NOT TO ME but to the WORD.. that once she and I both hard a Man of God preach on women in ministry and it rubbed us both wrong.. weeks later.. she asked to listen to it again... the next night she went before our church... and explained that she felt to be obedient to Gods Word she must no longer address the men of our church.. and asked if she has disobeyed Gods word out of ignorance to be forgiven... She then began to speak only at our ladies meetings... she did this without my having any idea she was going to do this.. I NEVER ONE TIME said one word to her.... she believed it before I did

Baron1710
07-22-2008, 02:45 PM
No harm taken,

I was just curious about your feelings on this. I find it interesting that Women not preaching, and lack of remarriage, and no hair-cutting are three things that you decided to point out in your post. It seems as if you are looking to cause controversy.

Ok you can cut your hair, and preach, but the remarriage thing you are stuck!!

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 02:46 PM
Teach the women ????...

There is one pic of her PREACHING (captioned as such) ... with a man in the background.



Mr. Alicea.. again we had it all wrong in those days.... we do it differently now.. just as I am sure you have changed things over the years and wouldn't want to be held accountable for things you might have done ignorantly or foolishly in the past

Aquila
07-22-2008, 02:46 PM
To all of the wonderful friends and foes who post on this forum.... I want to say first of all how sorry I am if my words have offended either of you. I suppose out here you feel more at liberty to let your expressions lose since there is no personal interaction, there's no facial expressions to tell when you have hurt someone, there's no fear of having to interact with that person in the future and thus you're not as careful in the way you speak.....

I would like for this board to know... one minute with me in person and you and I would be friends for life. Anyone who has ever met me will tell you there is not a time when my smile is not from ear to ear, making everyone laugh and keeping peoples Spirits high... I love people, I love Gods church and most importantly I love God.

You’ve never offended me bro. From what I read above I think you have a very good attitude and kind spirit.

Here is my question..... If someone like myself is a Fundametalist.. and what I mean by that is, we take a very literal interpretation of Gods Word.. we don't do well with "We'll it really means this or that or in the original it doesn't mean that.. we find safety in taking as much of the Word at face value as possible... and if by chance we have it wrong.. we feel facing God without Greek or Hebrew knowledge would not be counted against us.....

Well…we might have a difference in opinion here. A “literal” interpretation of God’s Word is not necessarily the proper way to interpret something so dynamic as the Bible. The Bible expresses multiple languages, linguistic metaphors, and cultural references relevant for the day in which it was written. For example, let’s say I that 2,000 years from now that I wanted to interpret a series of letters written by Americans today. One might have written,

“Today gasoline cost me an arm and a leg.”

Now…if I took that literally without seeking to understand the linguistic usage of phrases and words in the day they were written, would I not fail to properly interpret what was said? I might walk away believing they bartered with body parts. LOL

The Bible is similar. There are linguistic, geographic, and cultural things going on throughout the Scriptures that we are unfamiliar with. For example, Jesus writing on the sand. What did he write? Why did he write on the sand? If one doesn’t understand how things were done among the Jews of Christ’s day no one would realize the meaning of Christ’s actions or even why the Pharisees brought the woman caught in adultery to him. Another example, when the woman came and washed Christ’s feet with her “tears” and dried them with her hair….what is the significance of this? Did she literally use her “tears” or was this a term used for something common in Christ’s day? Lastly, only the original autographs are inerrant. What we have today are translations of copies…and sadly these are not always accurate. For example, consider Genesis 49:6,

Genesis 49:6
O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.

Is the phrase, “digged down a wall”, an accurate translation of the Greek texts used to translate our highly revered King James Bible?

No. Look it up if you don’t believe me. This means that they, “hamstrung oxen”. So as you can see, taking the English translation literally completely betrays the literal wording of the Greek texts.

Interpreting and teaching the Bible isn’t for novices or amateurs. Much study and reflection much accompany biblical knowledge. A teacher must go deeper than the surface and find the truth of the matter in texts that look one way to us…but were indeed quite different in reality.

Rather than try to find ways "Around" the Word... I am one who feels safe in reading the WORD and living it exactly as I read it... I am not condoning ignorance.. education is something I preach and believe in vehemntly.. but sometimes I do wonder if "much learning has not made us mad."

But there’s the issue someone like me would worry about…you’re reading the Bible “as I read it”, meaning as you read it. It becomes of private interpretation. One’s interpretation has to be founded on sound hermeneutics…not personal opinion. That being said though, no interpretation of Scripture is fool proof. There will always be things debated and discussed until Christ returns.

Now, my question for this board.... why is it that if someone like me who is very fundamental is so reviled? I realize my opinions are contrary to the mainstream but is was not so just years ago with my forefather.....

I may not be as much of a “fundamentalist” as you…but you’d be surprised with how much we might agree upon.

Had I made these statements just 30 years ago

A woman should not preach
Men should not remarry if they are divorced
Women should not cut their hair

Amen. I agree that women should not preach. I also agree that men and women should not remarry unless the previous marriage was dissolved on the grounds of adultery or abandonment. In addition I don’t think women should cut their hair. Though I think we miss a detail about what Paul said. When Paul said that it was a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, it wasn’t in regards to hair cuts so to speak. It was in reference to the custom of taking an unfaithful woman by her hair and cutting it off at the nap of the neck to shame her publicly. The reference to shaven has a lot to do with the prostitution common in pagan temples. Also Paul was literally talking about head coverings. Not wearing one in worship was considered as shameful as if a woman’s hair was shorn or shaven like she was a prostitute.

my statements would have been in accordance with the times... but of course now in this age those statements are considered mean and unmerciful

Cultural norms will always change. The way people look at Scripture will always change. That’s why interpretation should be founded upon solid scholarship not what individuals think is a literal take on a passage at a given time.

When it comes to the marriage issue,, it is not easy for me to make the stand I do... My father is on his 4th, my mother is on her 3rd, my grandmother is on her 2nd and I was ALMOST on my 2nd... before I heard a man of God preach on the issue of Marriage and Divorce.. before that time I TRULY did not have a strong biblical foundation on the issue....

I made my stand after much study and soul searching..... for me to tell you that I believe my own Father is in sin.. is NOT EASY...... but I feel compelled to face God with a clear conscience that I said it AS I SAW IT...

If God is going to judge us by obeying what we read or obeying what we should have known the Passage REALLY MEANT.. will we not all be in trouble?

Not if we have a sound foundation for seeking it’s meaning.

Again.,,, why is there no more room in the kingdom for men such as myself who believe in MERCY.. were it not for his mercy I would on my way to hell in a hurry... I LOVE MERCY I believe IN MERCY but I do not believe that MERCY is a LICENSE to deliberately disobey Gods Word.....

One thing that we can be sure of…things change. One day many of these radical liberals will be looking at their kids wondering the same thing. LOL

For the record.. if a man and woman has remarried,, I would always counsel them to remain as you are.... but with the knowledge you now have you must NEVER REMARRy.... Is that being cruel? Is that being hateful? or is that being faithful to Gods Word....

I’d have to study it out with you. If it’s a valid interpretation (yes sometimes there’s more than one way to look at something) I’d say brother, hold, hold, hold, to your convictions.

I bless all of you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ

Your Brother in Christ

[/LIST]

God bless you bro. See ya around. We’ll all understand it better by and by.

deadeye
07-22-2008, 02:46 PM
Dr Vaughn...I took a look at your myspace page....and read your blog on what happened in Eden....and found it FULL of silly supposition...no real scriptural backing. I remember talking to a Brahnamite once, who when backed in a corner on the lack of scripture to prove his Satan/Eve affair doctrine, said and I quote "well, you have to read between the lines"
And that is what you do....you read between the lines, you parse, you add, you ignore what the Word really says to build your false teaching....and you lead astray weak folks easily swayed by winds of heresy.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 02:47 PM
No harm taken,

I was just curious about your feelings on this. I find it interesting that Women not preaching, and lack of remarriage, and no hair-cutting are three things that you decided to point out in your post. It seems as if you are looking to cause controversy.

No, those just happen to be the topics of discussion as of late

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 02:48 PM
Ok you can cut your hair, and preach, but the remarriage thing you are stuck!!

Sorry Baron,, not following you... come again

Praxeas
07-22-2008, 02:50 PM
DV. I have discussed the doctrine at length with it's proponents. I have no problems discussing it. I doesn't concern us what someone else did in order to discuss these issues.,

Baron1710
07-22-2008, 02:52 PM
No harm taken,

I was just curious about your feelings on this. I find it interesting that Women not preaching, and lack of remarriage, and no hair-cutting are three things that you decided to point out in your post. It seems as if you are looking to cause controversy.

Ok you can cut your hair, and preach, but the remarriage thing you are stuck!!

Sorry Baron,, not following you... come again

Pro31:28 is my wife. And she can preach to anyone who will listen, and she is sucha good preacher that the men stay and listen too. In fact I remember one man telling her after she preached that she was the best natural speaker he had ever heard.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 02:54 PM
Dr Vaughn...I took a look at your myspace page....and read your blog on what happened in Eden....and found it FULL of silly supposition...no real scriptural backing. I remember talking to a Brahnamite once, who when backed in a corner on the lack of scripture to prove his Satan/Eve affair doctrine, said and I quote "well, you have to read between the lines"
And that is what you do....you read between the lines, you parse, you add, you ignore what the Word really says to build your false teaching....and you lead astray weak folks easily swayed by winds of heresy.

Deadeye, I respect your opinion,, if I am wrong.. No ones soul is in danger,, this will not be on the entrance exam at Pearly Gate #1.... However, If I am right, then so be it... either opinion of Eden will not save nor destroy us....

I know many Trinitarians who would say the Oneness folks deny the clear teachings of scripture and encourage people to UNDERSTAND WHAT JESUS WAS REALLY SAYINg..... so deadeye I could accuse you of the same things... but I choose not to.... if I am wrong about Eden, it wouldn't be the first thing I was wrong about

Blessings

LUKE2447
07-22-2008, 02:55 PM
Ok,, you guys just love getting me in trouble don't you?

You see you ask my opinion and I will give it and this board will call me hateful and out of touch... but here is my opinion

I believe a womans place first and foremost is as the nuturer of her children and the helper of her husband... you will forgive me if that sounds archaic

In the church her role is as Paul said.. Pauls mentions the woman praying and Prophesying.... with her head covered in reverence to her head which is her husband... there is a strong admonition for women to be used of God in prayer and the gifts of the Spirit.... and as workers she is simply forbidden because of "the beginning" to have any authority over a man..... not that the man is better than her but he is her head... I KNOW, I KNOW.. how dare I say such things..... but she is allowed to TEACH THE WOMEN,, Paul encourages the older women to teach the younger women.... she does wonderfully in connecting with children and training them in the ways of God... but when she stands to bring forth doctrine, rebuke, correction, exhortation she is stepping in an authorative position over the souls of men and God has forbidden it.... sorry.. no harm intended


I agree with Dr. Vaughn! Women can teach 70 or so % of the population. Women and children. I also agree that women should not teach not stand in or have authority over men.

Oh and your family is beautiful!

SDG
07-22-2008, 02:55 PM
No hair cutting ... really?

What are your thoughts on sleeveless dresses, Doctor?

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 02:56 PM
Pro31:28 is my wife. And she can preach to anyone who will listen, and she is sucha good preacher that the men stay and listen too. In fact I remember one man telling her after she preached that she was the best natural speaker he had ever heard.

You are the spiritual head of your home... direct it in the path you feel God leading you...

blessings

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 02:57 PM
I agree with Dr. Vaughn! Women can teach 70 or so % of the population. Women and children. I also agree that women should not teach not stand in or have authority over men.

Its nice to make your aquaintence... I have never understood why a lady is not satisfied with those God has placed in her realm of influence.. other ladies and our precious children... why must they feel compelled to have authority over the SONS of God?

SDG
07-22-2008, 02:59 PM
Bro ... when did you become a con??

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 03:00 PM
No hair cutting ... really?

What are your thoughts on sleeveless dresses, Doctor?

If it's not in the WORD, I try to leave it alone.... I do not preach against a woman wearing pants either... as I dont have NT scripture... I only have the hair issue that I am bound to preach because of its NT support.. I dont preach on sleeves nor moderation in jewels..... I try to speak where the Bible Speaks and be silent where it is silent...

I wear shorts to swim in... we are not legalist.... but there are few areas where the Word is loud and clear

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 03:01 PM
Bro ... when did you become a con??





Daniel,, I am not a CON in many areas.. I am fundamental in only the things I can see in the scriptures.. I am not a clothesline preacher except for hair.. its in the NT...

SDG
07-22-2008, 03:01 PM
If it's not in the WORD, I try to leave it alone.... I do not preach against a woman wearing pants either... as I dont have NT scripture... I only have the hair issue that I am bound to preach because of its NT support.. I dont preach on sleeves nor moderation in jewels..... I try to speak where the Bible Speaks and be silent where it is silent...

I wear shorts to swim in... we are not legalist.... but there are few areas where the Word is loud and clear

Thoughts on plastic surgery and Botox?

So no one in your assembly ... church ... or circle ... cuts their hair?

Baron1710
07-22-2008, 03:01 PM
Its nice to make your aquaintence... I have never understood why a lady is not satisfied with those God has placed in her realm of influence.. other ladies and our precious children... why must they feel compelled to have authority over the SONS of God?

And I have never understood chauvinism.

Ron
07-22-2008, 03:02 PM
I hear I am now a crazy, hard, rightwing, fundamentalist, Ultra Con!:club

All this time I thought I was a Moderate!:whistle

No wonder my friends are dwindling!:hypercoffee

SDG
07-22-2008, 03:05 PM
Mr. Alicea.. again we had it all wrong in those days.... we do it differently now.. just as I am sure you have changed things over the years and wouldn't want to be held accountable for things you might have done ignorantly or foolishly in the past

Daniel,, I am not a CON in many areas.. I am fundamental in only the things I can see in the scriptures.. I am not a clothesline preacher except for hair.. its in the NT...

When did your wife stop preaching to men? As I gather you are implicating these photos are ancient.

Pro31:28
07-22-2008, 03:06 PM
Its nice to make your aquaintence... I have never understood why a lady is not satisfied with those God has placed in her realm of influence.. other ladies and our precious children... why must they feel compelled to have authority over the SONS of God?

I feel like I need to step in here, I am completely submitted to my Husband. He does not rule over me, he holds my hand and we walk together through life. I have never ASKED to preach anywhere, I have only been invited. I have written a little bit, and apparently my stories have touched lives, no one seems to mind that.
I was told by a former pastor and comfirmed by my own husband that God had put a call to preach on my life. I do not feel a call to pastor, but I would also never say that a woman can't do that.
I have looked at your wife's myspace page and she seems to be a very beautiful woman with many, many talents. I pray that you give her the freedom in her submission to be all that God wants her to be.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 03:08 PM
Thoughts on plastic surgery and Botox?

So no one in your assembly ... church ... or circle ... cuts their hair?

Are you kidding? I would never touch on those issues,, plastic surgery and Botox.. who has time to preach against that? There are plenty of people who cut their hair in my church, I am not their Lord

Also, I have never preached against a woman trimming her dead ends or even layering her hair.... but I do not believe a woman shut cut the length of her hair.. it should be worn as long as it can possibly grow.... but we are no dogmatic about it..

SDG
07-22-2008, 03:09 PM
If it's not in the WORD, I try to leave it alone.... I do not preach against a woman wearing pants either... as I dont have NT scripture... I only have the hair issue that I am bound to preach because of its NT support.. I dont preach on sleeves nor moderation in jewels..... I try to speak where the Bible Speaks and be silent where it is silent...

I wear shorts to swim in... we are not legalist.... but there are few areas where the Word is loud and clear

Some believe these are modesty issues ... and we have to agree modesty is biblical.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 03:09 PM
And I have never understood chauvinism.

Baron.. it is not chauvinism.. whether you can comprehend this or not.. it is an innate desire to be pleasing and faithful to the order of God

SDG
07-22-2008, 03:10 PM
Are you kidding? I would never touch on those issues,, plastic surgery and Botox.. who has time to preach against that? There are plenty of people who cut their hair in my church, I am not their Lord

Also, I have never preached against a woman trimming her dead ends or even layering her hair.... but I do not believe a woman shut cut the length of her hair.. it should be worn as long as it can possibly grow.... but we are no dogmatic about it..

Now I'm really confused!!!

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 03:10 PM
When did your wife stop preaching to men? As I gather you are implicating these photos are ancient.

their at least a year old... we have held to this understanding for a little over a year now

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 03:12 PM
I feel like I need to step in here, I am completely submitted to my Husband. He does not rule over me, he holds my hand and we walk together through life. I have never ASKED to preach anywhere, I have only been invited. I have written a little bit, and apparently my stories have touched lives, no one seems to mind that.
I was told by a former pastor and comfirmed by my own husband that God had put a call to preach on my life. I do not feel a call to pastor, but I would also never say that a woman can't do that.
I have looked at your wife's myspace page and she seems to be a very beautiful woman with many, many talents. I pray that you give her the freedom in her submission to be all that God wants her to be.

Sister, blessings to you and your walk with God.... I would love to read your writings.. I am a huge reader... my wife ministers weekly to very large ladies groups throughout the country.. she writes,, she records gospel music albums... she simply chooses to stand in the place God has positioned her and that is not in a ministry to the men of God.. she and I both believe that a lady's calling is to other ladies.....

SDG
07-22-2008, 03:13 PM
Here is my question..... If someone like myself is a Fundametalist.. and what I mean by that is, we take a very literal interpretation of Gods Word.. we don't do well with "We'll it really means this or that or in the original it doesn't mean that.. we find safety in taking as much of the Word at face value as possible... and if by chance we have it wrong.. we feel facing God without Greek or Hebrew knowledge would not be counted against us.....

Rather than try to find ways "Around" the Word... I am one who feels safe in reading the WORD and living it exactly as I read it... I am not condoning ignorance.. education is something I preach and believe in vehemntly.. but sometimes I do wonder if "much learning has not made us mad."

Now, my question for this board.... why is it that if someone like me who is very fundamental is so reviled? I realize my opinions are contrary to the mainstream but is was not so just years ago with my forefather.....

Had I made these statements just 30 years ago

A woman should not preach
Men should not remarry if they are divorced
Women should not cut their hair

my statements would have been in accordance with the times... but of course now in this age those statements are considered mean and unmerciful
[/list]

If it's not in the WORD, I try to leave it alone.... I do not preach against a woman wearing pants either... as I dont have NT scripture... I only have the hair issue that I am bound to preach because of its NT support.. I dont preach on sleeves nor moderation in jewels..... I try to speak where the Bible Speaks and be silent where it is silent...

I wear shorts to swim in... we are not legalist.... but there are few areas where the Word is loud and clear

Daniel,, I am not a CON in many areas.. I am fundamental in only the things I can see in the scriptures.. I am not a clothesline preacher except for hair.. its in the NT...

Are you kidding? I would never touch on those issues,, plastic surgery and Botox.. who has time to preach against that? There are plenty of people who cut their hair in my church, I am not their Lord

Also, I have never preached against a woman trimming her dead ends or even layering her hair.... but I do not believe a woman shut cut the length of her hair.. it should be worn as long as it can possibly grow.... but we are no dogmatic about it..

You do believe a woman can cut their hair ... then.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 03:14 PM
Some believe these are modesty issues ... and we have to agree modesty is biblical.

You should know,,, you have plenty of pics on your mysapce brother.. are you just picking a fight? and the whole time your lady is in pants and your in shorts?

Come on,, no need for more between us... please let the Spirit of my original post be heard without your dragging us into uncessary rambling...

Trust me.. horseback riding last week in Key Largo... modest pants were much more called for than a dress

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 03:15 PM
You do believe a woman can cut their hair ... then.


She can maintain her hair.. keep it healthy,, keep it beautiful... but she should not cut the length of her hair... no sir

SDG
07-22-2008, 03:16 PM
You should know,,, you have plenty of pics on your mysapce brother.. are you just picking a fight? and the whole time your lady is in pants and your in shorts?

Come on,, no need for more between us... please let the Spirit of my original post be heard without your dragging us into uncessary rambling...

Trust me.. horseback riding last week in Key Largo... modest pants were much more called for than a dress

My Myspace .... http://www.myspace.com/danielalicea

No surprises.

Baron1710
07-22-2008, 03:16 PM
Baron.. it is not chauvinism.. whether you can comprehend this or not.. it is an innate desire to be pleasing and faithful to the order of God

You mean the God who set a female judge over Israel? Or the God who apointed Priscilla along with her husband to teach Apollos? Or the God who appointed a prophetess? That God?

SDG
07-22-2008, 03:17 PM
She can maintain her hair.. keep it healthy,, keep it beautiful... but she should not cut the length of her hair... no sir

You keep on saying cut the length of her hair ..but allow for trimming and layering.

You're parsing words again.

If this is being a fundamentalist then the answer to your thread question is a resounding ....

yes.

pelathais
07-22-2008, 03:17 PM
I would say yes, a Fundamentalist is "out of touch..." however the 3 issues that you raise are not traditionally part of the "Fundamentalist" tag. There are many sincere Fundamentalists who don't hold to some or all of the three and they will debate those topics in a lively manner.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 03:19 PM
My Myspace .... http://www.myspace.com/danielalicea

No surprises.


Wow,, you've cleaned it up I see.. good for you

SDG
07-22-2008, 03:20 PM
Wow,, you've cleaned it up I see.. good for you

Haven't touched it ....

Only added more pics.

SDG
07-22-2008, 03:20 PM
You can see more photos on Synadelfos.

Click banner below.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 03:22 PM
You mean the God who set a female judge over Israel? Or the God who apointed Priscilla along with her husband to teach Apollos? Or the God who appointed a prophetess? That God?

Baron the God who said
"NO MAN COULD BE FOUND IN ISRAEL" and thus he chose to use a woman to be a mother in Israel as a judge... and she did not want to lead them in war because she herself said it was not right for the glory to go to a woman in Israel rather than a man

Funny he never set a woman up as KING in ISrael

The God who never mentions Priscilla without HER HUSBAND being right there with her... and she NEVER LEADS THE HOUSE OF GOD.. she is talking privatly in her home, ONE ON ONE with her husband

Ferd
07-22-2008, 03:22 PM
You can see more photos on Synadelfos.

Click banner below.


i cant access synadelfos from work either....

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 03:23 PM
Haven't touched it ....

Only added more pics.


So, you don't wear shorts in PUBLIC?
Your lady doesn't wear pants and shorts?

She has a myspace also

I see alot of leg in the jetski pictures

SDG
07-22-2008, 03:25 PM
So, you don't wear shorts in PUBLIC?
Your lady doesn't wear pants and shorts?

She has a myspace also

Oh yeah all the time ...

I practice this and teach it.

I'm just not sure that your words that you convey on the initial thread are indicative of reality.

Baron1710
07-22-2008, 03:27 PM
Baron the God who said
"NO MAN COULD BE FOUND IN ISRAEL" and thus he chose to use a woman to be a mother in Israel as a judge... and she did not want to lead them in war because she herself said it was not right for the glory to go to a woman in Israel rather than a man

Funny he never set a woman up as KING in ISrael

The God who never mentions Priscilla without HER HUSBAND being right there with her... and she NEVER LEADS THE HOUSE OF GOD.. she is talking privatly in her home, ONE ON ONE with her husband

They (Priscill and Aquila) together are teaching a man.

Huldah is the prophetess in the book of Kings...

Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading Israel at that time.

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea

The word hear is deacon...

God has had women leaders throughout, and a female ruler is called a Queen.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 03:30 PM
They (Priscill and Aquila) together are teaching a man.

Huldah is the prophetess in the book of Kings...

Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading Israel at that time.

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea

The word hear is deacon...

God has had women leaders throughout, and a female ruler is called a Queen.

Did Israel ever have one without a KING that she was submitted to?

Praxeas
07-22-2008, 03:30 PM
Baron the God who said
"NO MAN COULD BE FOUND IN ISRAEL" and thus he chose to use a woman to be a mother in Israel as a judge... and she did not want to lead them in war because she herself said it was not right for the glory to go to a woman in Israel rather than a man

Funny he never set a woman up as KING in ISrael

The God who never mentions Priscilla without HER HUSBAND being right there with her... and she NEVER LEADS THE HOUSE OF GOD.. she is talking privatly in her home, ONE ON ONE with her husband
Women can't be kings. They can only be queens

SDG
07-22-2008, 03:30 PM
You have implicated that you are against cut hair yet the markers tell me another thing ... including allowing for trimming and layering.

You have implicated that you are a strict constructionist on scripture yet your stand on hair is not ....

If someone like myself is a Fundametalist.. and what I mean by that is, we take a very literal interpretation of Gods Word.. we don't do well with "We'll it really means this or that or in the original it doesn't mean that.. we find safety in taking as much of the Word at face value as possible... and if by chance we have it wrong.. we feel facing God without Greek or Hebrew knowledge would not be counted against us.....

Rather than try to find ways "Around" the Word... I am one who feels safe in reading the WORD and living it exactly as I read it... I am not condoning ignorance.. education is something I preach and believe in vehemntly.. but sometimes I do wonder if "much learning has not made us mad."

Now, my question for this board.... why is it that if someone like me who is very fundamental is so reviled? I realize my opinions are contrary to the mainstream but is was not so just years ago with my forefather.....

Had I made these statements just 30 years ago

A woman should not preach
Men should not remarry if they are divorced
Women should not cut their hair

Baron1710
07-22-2008, 03:35 PM
Did Israel ever have one without a KING that she was submitted to?

Seems there is a lot more in that post you need to answer than trying to determine if women can be kings.

God made them prophets, deacons, teachers, and rulers.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 03:41 PM
You have implicated that you are against cut hair yet the markers tell me another thing ... including allowing for trimming and layering.

You have implicated that you are a strict constructionist on scripture yet your stand on hair is not ....



I suppose its the whole "it depend on what is , is" argument... I would never tell a woman she could not maintain her hair but she should never shorten the length oh her hair

Praxeas
07-22-2008, 03:43 PM
In other words women should let their hair grow long but maintain it to keep it healthy looking by trimming it.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 03:45 PM
Seems there is a lot more in that post you need to answer than trying to determine if women can be kings.

God made them prophets, deacons, teachers, and rulers.

Baron, I didn't start this thread to there.. but before I DO go there... isn't it funny how we have to dig and dig to find these handful of apparent exceptions... now compare that to the MEN GOD USED and tell me how the scales weigh out?

Lets start with any of the writers of scripture? Did God choose to use any woman for that?

Lets go to the Major Prophets, any of them women?

How about the Minor Prophets? any of them women?

How about the Disciples, any of them women?

How about the Apostles, any of them women?

How about the Pastors, any of them women?

How about the Bishops, any of them women?

huh? any of them?

SDG
07-22-2008, 03:45 PM
I suppose its the whole "it depend on what is , is" argument... I would never tell a woman she could not maintain her hair but she should never shorten the length oh her hair

So cutting is okay ... just not the length of her hair ...

Care to define this phrase?

This is not a fundamentalist view, you know ... at least in our circles

It is the view of groups like Herbert Armstrong's WCG.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 03:46 PM
In other words women should let their hair grow long but maintain it to keep it healthy looking by trimming it.

I believe its a personal call between she and her husband... I have no problem with my wife letting her hair grow long and maintaining it.... if she desires to thin it out,. which does not require cutting the length... if she desires to trim the dead ends... which will not shorten the hair only cause it to grow longer.. then I have no problem with that... its keeping in the Spirit of the Word.. of having long hair

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 03:47 PM
So cutting is okay ... just not the length of her hair ...

Care to define this phrase?

This is not a fundamentalist view, you know ... at least in our circles

It is the view of groups like Herbert Armstrong's WCG.


Realizing when you step outside of your cirlces... their are much bigger circles in the world?

SDG
07-22-2008, 03:49 PM
Baron, I didn't start this thread to there.. but before I DO go there... isn't it funny how we have to dig and dig to find these handful of apparent exceptions... now compare that to the MEN GOD USED and tell me how the scales weigh out?

Lets start with any of the writers of scripture? Did God choose to use any woman for that?

Lets go to the Major Prophets, any of them women?

How about the Minor Prophets? any of them women?

How about the Disciples, any of them women?

How about the Apostles, any of them women?

How about the Pastors, any of them women?

How about the Bishops, any of them women?

huh? any of them?

This discussion is veering from the original statement you made as a fundamentalist ... that women should not preach ...

Many Christians maintain women need to submit to men in the divine order ...

So ... I think it's moot to talk about positions ... but rather what you think preaching is ... as a verb .... and why that's a male thing ... and not a female thing.

What makes a women speaking at the pulpit teaching ... and not preaching ...

Or at the supermarket for that matter?

rgcraig
07-22-2008, 03:50 PM
I believe its a personal call between she and her husband... I have no problem with my wife letting her hair grow long and maintaining it.... if she desires to thin it out,. which does not require cutting the length... if she desires to trim the dead ends... which will not shorten the hair only cause it to grow longer.. then I have no problem with that... its keeping in the Spirit of the Word.. of having long hair

Not to confuse you or anything, but all hair is dead and trimming the ends does NOT help it grow.

However, trimming it does make it look healthier since the split ends are removed.

Baron1710
07-22-2008, 03:50 PM
Baron, I didn't start this thread to there.. but before I DO go there... isn't it funny how we have to dig and dig to find these handful of apparent exceptions... now compare that to the MEN GOD USED and tell me how the scales weigh out?

Lets start with any of the writers of scripture? Did God choose to use any woman for that?

Lets go to the Major Prophets, any of them women?

How about the Minor Prophets? any of them women?

How about the Disciples, any of them women?

How about the Apostles, any of them women?

How about the Pastors, any of them women?

How about the Bishops, any of them women?

huh? any of them?

The fact that God did use women at a time in history when the overall view of a woman was very low is amazing. The fact that he did use women as rulers, prophets, teachers, and deacons is a testament to the fact that he DID desire this. My pastor who was raised in a Jewish home told me about a prayer that his grandfather prayed thanking God he was not born a woman or a Gentile, even in that culture God was able to use women.

SDG
07-22-2008, 03:50 PM
Realizing when you step outside of your cirlces... their are much bigger circles in the world?

I agree ... a lot bigger circles ... however my view of the Body is a lot bigger than yours, Dr. V.

SDG
07-22-2008, 03:52 PM
So cutting is okay ... just not the length of her hair ...

Care to define this phrase?

This is not a fundamentalist view, you know ... at least in our circles

It is the view of groups like Herbert Armstrong's WCG.


Realizing when you step outside of your cirlces... their are much bigger circles in the world?

Can you please define "not cutting the length of her hair" ... ???

rgcraig
07-22-2008, 03:55 PM
I believe its a personal call between she and her husband... I have no problem with my wife letting her hair grow long and maintaining it.... if she desires to thin it out,. which does not require cutting the length... if she desires to trim the dead ends... which will not shorten the hair only cause it to grow longer.. then I have no problem with that... its keeping in the Spirit of the Word.. of having long hair

Dan, he tried here.

Nahum
07-22-2008, 03:55 PM
Brother Vaughn,

I will attempt to say this with as much restraint and respect as possible.

Sir, I believe you are a fraud. I don't know if this fraud is intentional, or if you have just misrepresented yourself so much, for so long, that you now identify with the misrepresentation instead of what is real.

You say so many things that we eventually find out are completely false. You post positions you don't really believe. You are confused about your education experiences. We've seen enough to determine what your character really is.

For the record, a person so adamantly opposed to women preachers would have never left those pictures up on the MySpace page.

rgcraig
07-22-2008, 03:56 PM
Brother Vaughn,

I will attempt to say this with as much restraint and respect as possible.

Sir, I believe you are a fraud. I don't know if this fraud is intentional, or if you have just misrepresented yourself so much, for so long, that you now identify with the misrepresentation instead of what is real.

You say so many things that we eventually find out are completely false. You post positions you don't really believe. You are confused about your education experiences. We've seen enough to determine what your character really is.

For the record, a person so adamantly opposed to women preachers would have never left those pictures up on the MySpace page.Glad you used much restraint - :ursofunny

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 03:58 PM
This discussion is veering from the original statement you made as a fundamentalist ... that women should not preach ...

Many Christians maintain women need to submit to men in the divine order ...

So ... I think it's moot to talk about positions ... but rather what you think preaching is ... as a verb .... and why that's a male thing ... and not a female thing.

What makes a women speaking at the pulpit teaching ... and not preaching ...

Or at the supermarket for that matter?

Dan that is actually a great question and one that I have pondered many times.. until I see Paul basically giving us the description of preaching

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Notive the punctuation after PREACH THE WORD.. he is continuing the thought.. and thus the explanation of PREACHING THE WORD ---REPROVING, by the way look up the original meaning of reproving a pretty powerful word,, very authorative..... REBUKE - should a sister ever rebuke a man of God? Preaching is also exhorting with doctrine...... doctrine brings correction of our error.. should a sister ever be correcting a man of God in scripture?

thanks

Nahum
07-22-2008, 03:58 PM
Brother Vaughn,

I will attempt to say this with as much restraint and respect as possible.

Sir, I believe you are a fraud. I don't know if this fraud is intentional, or if you have just misrepresented yourself so much, for so long, that you now identify with the misrepresentation instead of what is real.

You say so many things that we eventually find out are completely false. You post positions you don't really believe. You are confused about your education experiences. We've seen enough to determine what your character really is.

For the record, a person so adamantly opposed to women preachers would have never left those pictures up on the MySpace page.

And while I 'm at it there is something else that really bothers me about your posts. It bothers me that you are a doctor and can't spell any better than a sixth grader. That, and your grammar and composition is atrocious.

SDG
07-22-2008, 03:58 PM
I believe its a personal call between she and her husband... I have no problem with my wife letting her hair grow long and maintaining it.... if she desires to thin it out,. which does not require cutting the length... if she desires to trim the dead ends... which will not shorten the hair only cause it to grow longer.. then I have no problem with that... its keeping in the Spirit of the Word.. of having long hair

Keeping w/ the spirit of the law ... or Word ... is not fundamentalist .. as you have defined it ... or being literal to to the Word.

Furthermore you have implicated that a woman cannot cut her hair but allow for it ...

Also trimming dead ends does not ensure that hair will grow longer ... although can contribute to it's health.

SDG
07-22-2008, 03:59 PM
Dan that is actually a great question and one that I have pondered many times.. until I see Paul basically giving us the description of preaching

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Notive the punctuation after PREACH THE WORD.. he is continuing the thought.. and thus the explanation of PREACHING THE WORD ---REPROVING, by the way look up the original meaning of reproving a pretty powerful word,, very authorative..... REBUKE - should a sister ever rebuke a man of God? Preaching is also exhorting with doctrine...... doctrine brings correction of our error.. should a sister ever be correcting a man of God in scripture?

thanks

Please define teaching for me ...??? And the word doctrine???

Other than this one text used in isolation please share the Greek and Hebrew meaning of preaching ...

and how your definition of preaching fits to other contexts in which the verb "to preach" is used in Scripture.

Rico
07-22-2008, 04:00 PM
To all of the wonderful friends and foes who post on this forum.... I want to say first of all how sorry I am if my words have offended either of you. I suppose out here you feel more at liberty to let your expressions lose since there is no personal interaction, there's no facial expressions to tell when you have hurt someone, there's no fear of having to interact with that person in the future and thus you're not as careful in the way you speak.....

I would like for this board to know... one minute with me in person and you and I would be friends for life. Anyone who has ever met me will tell you there is not a time when my smile is not from ear to ear, making everyone laugh and keeping peoples Spirits high... I love people, I love Gods church and most importantly I love God.

Here is my question..... If someone like myself is a Fundametalist.. and what I mean by that is, we take a very literal interpretation of Gods Word.. we don't do well with "We'll it really means this or that or in the original it doesn't mean that.. we find safety in taking as much of the Word at face value as possible... and if by chance we have it wrong.. we feel facing God without Greek or Hebrew knowledge would not be counted against us.....

Rather than try to find ways "Around" the Word... I am one who feels safe in reading the WORD and living it exactly as I read it... I am not condoning ignorance.. education is something I preach and believe in vehemntly.. but sometimes I do wonder if "much learning has not made us mad."

Now, my question for this board.... why is it that if someone like me who is very fundamental is so reviled? I realize my opinions are contrary to the mainstream but is was not so just years ago with my forefather.....

Had I made these statements just 30 years ago

A woman should not preach
Men should not remarry if they are divorced
Women should not cut their hair

my statements would have been in accordance with the times... but of course now in this age those statements are considered mean and unmerciful

When it comes to the marriage issue,, it is not easy for me to make the stand I do... My father is on his 4th, my mother is on her 3rd, my grandmother is on her 2nd and I was ALMOST on my 2nd... before I heard a man of God preach on the issue of Marriage and Divorce.. before that time I TRULY did not have a strong biblical foundation on the issue....

I made my stand after much study and soul searching..... for me to tell you that I believe my own Father is in sin.. is NOT EASY...... but I feel compelled to face God with a clear conscience that I said it AS I SAW IT...

If God is going to judge us by obeying what we read or obeying what we should have known the Passage REALLY MEANT.. will we not all be in trouble?

Again.,,, why is there no more room in the kingdom for men such as myself who believe in MERCY.. were it not for his mercy I would on my way to hell in a hurry... I LOVE MERCY I believe IN MERCY but I do not believe that MERCY is a LICENSE to deliberately disobey Gods Word.....

For the record.. if a man and woman has remarried,, I would always counsel them to remain as you are.... but with the knowledge you now have you must NEVER REMARRy.... Is that being cruel? Is that being hateful? or is that being faithful to Gods Word....

I bless all of you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ

Your Brother in Christ

[/LIST]

Brother Vaughn, there has been a dramatic change over the last thirty years, in that people have become much more educated on the Word of God. The availability of information is such as it has never before been in history. When people study scriptures used to defend traditionally held beliefs, and find what they've been told doesn't match up with what they've found while studying, it makes maintaining the status quo an impossibility.

With knowledge comes power. It used to be that, concerning religious issues, those in leadership were the ones with all the power to decide what was right and what was wrong. That's changed so much over the last 30 years. Christians have watched preacher after preacher fail and have decided to take that power back. It's no longer enough for the preacher to say it's such and thus. People do not have the confidence they once had in leadership, so they make these types of decisions for themselves, hopefully prayerfully and in the fear and admonition of the Lord. I don't think that's such a bad thing, Brother.

Ferd
07-22-2008, 04:01 PM
The problem with a place like this is, things get written down... and can then be measured against other things that have been written down.... and they can all be varified quite easily....

It becomes quite burdensome for anyone trying to present something other than the simple truth.... Now Im not pointing fingers, just offering comentary from the cheep seats...

and you can consider that my fundimentalist perspective.

Ferd
07-22-2008, 04:02 PM
And while I 'm at it there is something else that really bothers me about your posts. It bothers me that you are a doctor and can't spell any better than a sixth grader. That, and your grammar and composition is atrocious.

LOL! thank God I'm not a doctor!

Rico
07-22-2008, 04:02 PM
Ferd, thanks for your response.... may I ask you a personal question? If we can just drop all the snideness and smugness and actually have a pleasant conversation.. that would be nice...

I respect completely your disagreement with Serpent Seed.. I was once in your shoes... the very thought of it repulsed me as I thought it was almost pornographic to talk about... and preached against Serpent Seed publically.....

As you know I have changed my opinion.. thank God for America.. lol... anyhow since those times I am amazed how people get so upset by this doctrine when it is a completely non essential issue...

For example... I am with you if we are talking someones eternal soul,, their salvation... I am with you in being adamant... but if a person sees things different in the book of Revelations differently that I do... I am not gonna part fellowship or get upset about it..... and if someone like me sees the event sin Genesis different than you do.. does it really matter? Should it upset you as much as it does?

Help me understand.. why the anger and disgust with the subject? Honestly, if it does not pertain to salvation why get so upset about it... you guys don't get this upset of Trinitarianism, a doctrine that presents a false God for people to worship...... for the life of me.. I don't understand how the doctrine of "Original Sin or Serpent Seed" whichever you choose to call it is so upsetting for people... if you tell me you're a preterist or a post trib believer..... I am not going to get disgusted and furious... you are still my brother.. we both believe the same gospel of salvation....

Ok, sorry for my ramblings

Whether salvational or not, the serpent seed doctrine is a perversion of truth, in my opinion. That's why I am against it.

Nahum
07-22-2008, 04:05 PM
LOL! thank God I'm not a doctor!

Look, have you ever known me to make a big deal over spelling and grammar before?

I understand we make errors. At least I know I do.

But to present yourself as super-educated, and then show a complete ignorance of the fundamental laws of grammar, is frustrating to me.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 04:05 PM
Keeping w/ the spirit of the law ... or Word ... is not fundamentalist .. as you have defined it ... or being literal to to the Word.

Furthermore you have implicated that a woman cannot cut her hair but allow for it ...

Also trimming dead ends does not ensure that hair will grow longer ... although can contribute to it's health.

does good health not equal growth> think about a child

SDG
07-22-2008, 04:05 PM
Is the command to preach the Gospel only for men?

Where are women instructed to teach the Gospel rather than preach the Gospel?

Sister Alvear
07-22-2008, 04:05 PM
I would say fundamentalist means what we want it to mean in the light we see the Bible..

Goodness, I have got a bad headache...early this morning some Catholic people wanted me to try to talk their son into going to a rehab center...
I walked into the dirtiest place I have ever been in...spelled like crack and other drugs...drinking, smoking...the bathroom had excrement all over ...a tiny hungry dog with her puppies in one corner of the one room house...and saddest of all a little unnourished girl crying for food...( I cannot imagine a guy on drugs raising a tiny little girl I wonder what mother would even give her child to a guy like that)
Inside was a boy with glassed over eyes he was so stoned but the one we were came for was not there...
We waited and waited then drove the streets looking for him in vain….so I will try to go back another day this week…
I was glad I had 2 men with me, my son Michael and a young preacher…

Not exactly on the subject here...but anyway... will you folks say a prayer for this situation? Thanks.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 04:06 PM
Please define teaching for me ...??? And the word doctrine???

Other than this one text used in isolation please share the Greek and Hebrew meaning of preaching ...

and how your definition of preaching fits to other contexts in which the verb "to preach" is used in Scripture.

Whats wrong with the Apostles understanding of what PREACH means? See why chase after other meanings.. when he made it clear what PREACHINg is

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 04:08 PM
Is the command to preach the Gospel only for men?

Where are women instructed to teach the Gospel rather than preach the Gospel?

Where are the instructed to PREACH THE GOSPEL?

SDG
07-22-2008, 04:10 PM
does good health not equal growth> think about a child

Hair grows from the roots ... think science.

There is a body of science that contradicts your belief

SDG
07-22-2008, 04:12 PM
Whats wrong with the Apostles understanding of what PREACH means? See why chase after other meanings.. when he made it clear what PREACHINg is

He is not defining preaching but rather instructing a young bishop on how he should do it ...

You really need to re-assess your hermeneutical foundations.

SDG
07-22-2008, 04:16 PM
Whats wrong with the Apostles understanding of what PREACH means? See why chase after other meanings.. when he made it clear what PREACHINg is

Where are the instructed to PREACH THE GOSPEL?

If I take your logic to it's extreme than preaching the Gospel was only for the disciples ... and verses in which he commissions them like Matthew 28 only apply to them ... and not us.

SDG
07-22-2008, 04:17 PM
Still waiting on the Greek and Hebrew words for preaching.

And why this verb only applies to males.

Baron1710
07-22-2008, 04:19 PM
If preaching the Gospel means to proclaim the good news (and it does) why are women prohibited? Proclaiming the Gospel doesn't just take place behind a pulpit, it comes in books, and songs too.

Sister Alvear
07-22-2008, 04:23 PM
I don´t plan on getting into a debate about women in ministry...
I do know a precious couple that once evangelized and he got to listening to WB tapes and stopped his wife from preaching and today he is not even really in church...or faithful to say the least...
She never preached again...their ministry was ruined...She is a precious lady...I have always wondered what she will say in judgment to the ONE who called?

It is easy to say God doesn´t call...another thing to be a woman and KNOW you are called...Woe is me if I do not obey my Lord that called. So at the cost of being laughed at, being joked about...many tears of mine are at the foot of the cross begging Him to release me from the call...but it is still there.

Of course I believe about women in ministry different than anyone on this forum...so that puts me at double odds...I believe everyone is called to preach...Acts 8:4,5 tells us that the men and women that Saul did not drag off to prison went everywhere preaching the word of God...

Ferd
07-22-2008, 04:25 PM
Look, have you ever known me to make a big deal over spelling and grammar before?

I understand we make errors. At least I know I do.

But to present yourself as super-educated, and then show a complete ignorance of the fundamental laws of grammar, is frustrating to me.

Hey bro, im just making a joke.

fact is, it wouldn't matter how many degrees I got, I would never be able to spell very well.... but my grammar generally is within general tolerances......

Pro31:28
07-22-2008, 04:30 PM
I don´t plan on getting into a debate about women in ministry...
I do know a precious couple that once evangelized and he got to listening to WB tapes and stopped his wife from preaching and today he is not even really in church...or faithful to say the least...
She never preached again...their ministry was ruined...She is a precious lady...I have always wondered what she will say in judgment to the ONE who called?

It is easy to say God doesn´t call...another thing to be a woman and KNOW you are called...Woe is me if I do not obey my Lord that called. So at the cost of being laughed at, being joked about...many tears of mine are at the foot of the cross begging Him to release me from the call...but it is still there.

Of course I believe about women in ministry different than anyone on this forum...so that puts me at double odds...I believe everyone is called to preach...Acts 8:4,5 tells us that the men and women that Saul did not drag off to prison went everywhere preaching the word of God...

You go Sister A.!:shockamoo

I agree with you that it is difficult, I am a woman who wants nothing more than to please the Lord. The calling on my life did not make sense to me, I had been raised in the teachings that abound on this thread, and I am not someone who likes dissention. When My Pastor and Husband told me that I was running from a call, that stopped me cold. I now wait on the Lord, sometimes my preaching takes place in chapel at school, sometimes in my classroom, sometimes on the phone, sometimes in writing, sometimes at church, sometimes on the street, and always to my children! :club

But becuase of bias, I wouldn't refer to myself as a "preacher" I just refer to myself as 'a child of the King who likes to do what she is told by Him' :friend

SDG
07-22-2008, 04:31 PM
If preaching the Gospel means to proclaim the good news (and it does) why are women prohibited? Proclaiming the Gospel doesn't just take place behind a pulpit, it comes in books, and songs too.

Absolutely ... proclaiming (kerusso, in the Greek) .... the Gospel can be done in many ways other than what our modern paradigm has made it to be ... therefore this is preaching also ...

The problem, Baron, is that a Levitical model still persists in the minds of many in the Church ...

No reasonable argument can be made that we are not all to proclaim ... or preach the Gospel ...

Unless the fundamentalist would like to insist that the Great Commission does not apply to all and does not apply to us today.

Our present value of a preacher is that he's a male behind the pulpit ... and so faulty thinking will lead to only men preach ... and of course its w/ a tie behind a pulpit .... and that preaching has a gender attached to it ....

It's a verb.

Baron1710
07-22-2008, 04:31 PM
I don´t plan on getting into a debate about women in ministry...
I do know a precious couple that once evangelized and he got to listening to WB tapes and stopped his wife from preaching and today he is not even really in church...or faithful to say the least...
She never preached again...their ministry was ruined...She is a precious lady...I have always wondered what she will say in judgment to the ONE who called?

It is easy to say God doesn´t call...another thing to be a woman and KNOW you are called...Woe is me if I do not obey my Lord that called. So at the cost of being laughed at, being joked about...many tears of mine are at the foot of the cross begging Him to release me from the call...but it is still there.

Of course I believe about women in ministry different than anyone on this forum...so that puts me at double odds...I believe everyone is called to preach...Acts 8:4,5 tells us that the men and women that Saul did not drag off to prison went everywhere preaching the word of God...

I think I put up a pretty good defense for women in ministry.

Ferd
07-22-2008, 04:33 PM
I thank God for Lady men of God! (that is an Epleyism joke dont be mad at me)

my great grandmother was one, and without her, I would not be saved today!

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 04:34 PM
Is the command to preach the Gospel only for men?

Where are women instructed to teach the Gospel rather than preach the Gospel?

Was he speaking to men or women disciples when he gave this command.. the gospel is more than JESUS LOVES YOU.. it is the entire counsel of God... the doctrines of Christ

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 04:35 PM
Hair grows from the roots ... think science.

There is a body of science that contradicts your belief


Dan.. please.. come on man.... you yourself said to trim the ends causes the hair to be more healthy.... health means growth.... does it not

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 04:36 PM
He is not defining preaching but rather instructing a young bishop on how he should do it ...

You really need to re-assess your hermeneutical foundations.

Ok so,, what is exhorting, what is reproving and rebuking.. what is doctrine if its not preaching.. geez.. why not read it for what it is.. PAULS instructions on PREACHING THE GOSPEL....

I suppose now you will say the "be instant in season and out" no longer applies to preaching.. if it does then the rest does as well

SDG
07-22-2008, 04:37 PM
Was he speaking to men or women disciples when he gave this command.. the gospel is more than JESUS LOVES YOU.. it is the entire counsel of God... the doctrines of Christ

Other versions of the Great Commission are found Mark 16:14-18 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Mark&verse=16:14-18&src=%21), Luke 24:44-49 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Luke&verse=24:44-49&src=%21), Acts 1:4-8 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Acts&verse=1:4-8&src=%21), and John 20:19-23 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20John&verse=20:19-23&src=%21). All these passages are composed as words of Christ spoken after his resurrection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection).

In Acts 1 .. ..he says power would be given so that they could be witnesses ... to proclaim the Gospel ...

This power is for all ... women received this power also ... we are given this power for a task ..... not just our personal edification.

Is the Holy Ghost just for men?

SDG
07-22-2008, 04:38 PM
Ok so,, what is exhorting, what is reproving and rebuking.. what is doctrine if its not preaching.. geez.. why not read it for what it is.. PAULS instructions on PREACHING THE GOSPEL....

I suppose now you will say the "be instant in season and out" no longer applies to preaching.. if it does then the rest does as well

Doctrine is teaching.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 04:38 PM
I don´t plan on getting into a debate about women in ministry...
I do know a precious couple that once evangelized and he got to listening to WB tapes and stopped his wife from preaching and today he is not even really in church...or faithful to say the least...
She never preached again...their ministry was ruined...She is a precious lady...I have always wondered what she will say in judgment to the ONE who called?

It is easy to say God doesn´t call...another thing to be a woman and KNOW you are called...Woe is me if I do not obey my Lord that called. So at the cost of being laughed at, being joked about...many tears of mine are at the foot of the cross begging Him to release me from the call...but it is still there.

Of course I believe about women in ministry different than anyone on this forum...so that puts me at double odds...I believe everyone is called to preach...Acts 8:4,5 tells us that the men and women that Saul did not drag off to prison went everywhere preaching the word of God...

You're a precious lady Sis. Alvear

Baron1710
07-22-2008, 04:38 PM
I am going to log off and go home to my preacher wife who tells me she will have dinner ready for me when I get there. Woooo hooo. She can preach and cook.

dizzyde
07-22-2008, 04:39 PM
Not to confuse you or anything, but all hair is dead and trimming the ends does NOT help it grow.

However, trimming it does make it look healthier since the split ends are removed.

Also, for myself, considering the fact that my hair has never grown past my shoulders, if I trim it 1/2 inch, I will have significantly shortened the length of my hair...

SDG
07-22-2008, 04:39 PM
Also, for myself, considering the fact that my hair has never grown past my shoulders, if I trim it 1/2 inch, I will have significantly shortened the length of my hair...

Makes too much sense ... a child would understand it.

Ferd
07-22-2008, 04:40 PM
why do I hear Chris Burman saying "back back back back back" ringing in my ears? and see some outfielder back peddling to the wall?

Rico
07-22-2008, 04:43 PM
I am going to log off and go home to my preacher wife who tells me she will have dinner ready for me when I get there. Woooo hooo. She can preach and cook.

Just the fact that she can put up with you says volumes about her character!








































:D

SDG
07-22-2008, 04:43 PM
Was he speaking to men or women disciples when he gave this command.. the gospel is more than JESUS LOVES YOU.. it is the entire counsel of God... the doctrines of Christ

The Gospel is the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ ....

Doctrines are teachings ...

Your position is that woman cannot proclaim the Gospel ... and in doing so they cannot teach doctrine.

SDG
07-22-2008, 04:46 PM
Other than your strict constructionist view on marriage Doctor ...

You do not hold literal meanings for cut or preaching ....

Therefore you are not the fundamentalist you think you are.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 04:47 PM
1Chronicles 25:2, the sons of Asaph and Jeduthun "prophesied with the harp

Was the sons of Asaph & Jeduthun preaching here... because the word PROPHESY is used?

Sister Alvear
07-22-2008, 04:50 PM
You're a precious lady Sis. Alvear

Thank you and hope I will always be remembered as a lady...not a woman that wanted to tell men what to do...but a lady that cared enough for souls that she was willing to share her basket of bread with others.

Love you folks.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 04:51 PM
Other than your strict constructionist view on marriage Doctor ...

You do not hold literal meanings for cut or preaching ....

Therefore you are not the fundamentalist you think you are.

Dan, since your so into the word PREACH... heres a little suggestion

Can you find me ONE SCRIPTURE.. thats all, just one itty bitty scripture where that word is used in conjunction with a woman?

Now, I find 43 references in the NT to PREACHING and each time.. there is either a mans name there or a reference to MEN.... NOT ONCE is there a reference to women...

So if God is sooo for this idea of women preaching why isnt that word PREACH joined to at least ONE WOMAN in Holy Scripture?

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 04:59 PM
Thank you and hope I will always be remembered as a lady...not a woman that wanted to tell men what to do...but a lady that cared enough for souls that she was willing to share her basket of bread with others.

Love you folks.

Sis. Alvear.. may I ask a very personal question? You do not have to respond.. I respect that...

When you first went to Brazil, you were alone I believe?

You worked the field there alone... then you married, correct?

You now have a husband and sons that are in the ministry..... with those able men.. do you still consider yourself the leader of the ministry there.. or do you forsee a time when you will yield the reigns to these men or has that already happened.... just wondering how the ministry is set up there.. where the buck stops, if you will.

I know in my grandmothers church.... the pastorship was sort of thrust upon her.... yet she let the preachers in the church lead the services and if a male minister came into her services. she would always ask him to preach instead of her.. and thus her reputation as a lady....

Blessings

Sister Alvear
07-22-2008, 05:15 PM
Before your time on the forum I once told my story...
Before I was married I built several churches and won souls to the Lord....in time I took care of 4 churches and several house meetings...
After I got married I called a preachers meeting and told our brothers that I was no longer the head that my husband was...
As anything it took time for the people to accept the fact that I really meant that...but time has proved that...
If I wanted to I could probably hold any position for our people love me BUT I do not want a position or authority...I am confortable just doing whatever is needed...

Right now I have had to help a lot because Brother Alvear is in the states and our son Arlei that was our co pastor moved to the jungle. We have other brothers that help but are not ready or mature enough for a lot of ministerial load on them...so like tonight I organized the brothers that went to the village churches...they still are in the stage here that they depend much on Brother Alvear. I stayed home and cooked supper and my other boys are also helping out...
I have been out most of the day...visiting...



My greatest joy is seeing them do whatever...but if they stumble I am around to give motherly advice...

I personally do not enjoy speaking in the presence of men ut if the need be I will arise and make up the gap...

Brother Vaughn, I know you do not know me but in the 10 years we have been here you could count on one hand how many times I have sat on the platform... I like to sit on the front bench and worship.

Praxeas
07-22-2008, 05:17 PM
Dan, since your so into the word PREACH... heres a little suggestion

Can you find me ONE SCRIPTURE.. thats all, just one itty bitty scripture where that word is used in conjunction with a woman?

Now, I find 43 references in the NT to PREACHING and each time.. there is either a mans name there or a reference to MEN.... NOT ONCE is there a reference to women...

So if God is sooo for this idea of women preaching why isnt that word PREACH joined to at least ONE WOMAN in Holy Scripture?
the word preach simply means to proclaim. So if we are going to be literalists women can't proclaim to their neighbors, even other women that Jesus is Lord that they need to be saved?

What about teaching? Priscilla and Aquila both taught Apollos the way of the Lord.

I think the reason we don't see women doing things as much is because women were considered inferior submissive child bearers. That was their culture. Women didn't even attend schools. The men went to learn the bible and came home and taught the wives

Rico
07-22-2008, 05:20 PM
DV, something I thought was worth mentioning. You start these threads and then wonder why people don't react the way you thought they would. It seems to me you are bringing much of this upon yourself because you are the one starting the threads you find yourself at odds with other posters in. Just something to think about.

Dr. Vaughn
07-22-2008, 05:42 PM
Before your time on the forum I once told my story...
Before I was married I built several churches and won souls to the Lord....in time I took care of 4 churches and several house meetings...
After I got married I called a preachers meeting and told our brothers that I was no longer the head that my husband was...
As anything it took time for the people to accept the fact that I really meant that...but time has proved that...
If I wanted to I could probably hold any position for our people love me BUT I do not want a position or authority...I am confortable just doing whatever is needed...

Right now I have had to help a lot because Brother Alvear is in the states and our son Arlei that was our co pastor moved to the jungle. We have other brothers that help but are not ready or mature enough for a lot of ministerial load on them...so like tonight I organized the brothers that went to the village churches...they still are in the stage here that they depend much on Brother Alvear. I stayed home and cooked supper and my other boys are also helping out...
I have been out most of the day...visiting...



My greatest joy is seeing them do whatever...but if they stumble I am around to give motherly advice...

I personally do not enjoy speaking in the presence of men ut if the need be I will arise and make up the gap...

Brother Vaughn, I know you do not know me but in the 10 years we have been here you could count on one hand how many times I have sat on the platform... I like to sit on the front bench and worship.

and thus the reason I have called you a PRECIOUS LADY, you are regarded highly among my family.. no matter our disagreements.... I loved your response

Sister Alvear
07-22-2008, 05:54 PM
the 10 years I refere to is northeast Brazil...we used to live in the south.

Pro31:28
07-23-2008, 04:54 AM
Just the fact that she can put up with you says volumes about her character!:D

:ursofunny

Hoovie
07-23-2008, 11:15 AM
To all of the wonderful friends and foes who post on this forum.... I want to say first of all how sorry I am if my words have offended either of you. I suppose out here you feel more at liberty to let your expressions lose since there is no personal interaction, there's no facial expressions to tell when you have hurt someone, there's no fear of having to interact with that person in the future and thus you're not as careful in the way you speak.....

I would like for this board to know... one minute with me in person and you and I would be friends for life. Anyone who has ever met me will tell you there is not a time when my smile is not from ear to ear, making everyone laugh and keeping peoples Spirits high... I love people, I love Gods church and most importantly I love God.

Here is my question..... If someone like myself is a Fundametalist.. and what I mean by that is, we take a very literal interpretation of Gods Word.. we don't do well with "We'll it really means this or that or in the original it doesn't mean that.. we find safety in taking as much of the Word at face value as possible... and if by chance we have it wrong.. we feel facing God without Greek or Hebrew knowledge would not be counted against us.....

Rather than try to find ways "Around" the Word... I am one who feels safe in reading the WORD and living it exactly as I read it... I am not condoning ignorance.. education is something I preach and believe in vehemntly.. but sometimes I do wonder if "much learning has not made us mad."

Now, my question for this board.... why is it that if someone like me who is very fundamental is so reviled? I realize my opinions are contrary to the mainstream but is was not so just years ago with my forefather.....

Had I made these statements just 30 years ago

A woman should not preach
Men should not remarry if they are divorced
Women should not cut their hair

my statements would have been in accordance with the times... but of course now in this age those statements are considered mean and unmerciful

When it comes to the marriage issue,, it is not easy for me to make the stand I do... My father is on his 4th, my mother is on her 3rd, my grandmother is on her 2nd and I was ALMOST on my 2nd... before I heard a man of God preach on the issue of Marriage and Divorce.. before that time I TRULY did not have a strong biblical foundation on the issue....

I made my stand after much study and soul searching..... for me to tell you that I believe my own Father is in sin.. is NOT EASY...... but I feel compelled to face God with a clear conscience that I said it AS I SAW IT...

If God is going to judge us by obeying what we read or obeying what we should have known the Passage REALLY MEANT.. will we not all be in trouble?

Again.,,, why is there no more room in the kingdom for men such as myself who believe in MERCY.. were it not for his mercy I would on my way to hell in a hurry... I LOVE MERCY I believe IN MERCY but I do not believe that MERCY is a LICENSE to deliberately disobey Gods Word.....

For the record.. if a man and woman has remarried,, I would always counsel them to remain as you are.... but with the knowledge you now have you must NEVER REMARRy.... Is that being cruel? Is that being hateful? or is that being faithful to Gods Word....

I bless all of you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ

Your Brother in Christ

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Rev., I agree with you on issues faar more than I disagree. (sans apostle Branham)

As to the "fundamental" question, - no problem.

I consider my close Baptist and Lutheran friends as nothing less than genuine Christians - and yes I understand that's not what you meant by "fundamental".