Question

[Dr. Vaughn]

What if, while Jesus was about to be crucified...... the Roman Soldier who pierced his side giving him the final blow of death... decided to use his free will and SCREAM out.. "I CAN"t DO THIS, I WON'T DO THIS"

Does our salvation depend on Predestination or Free will?

Not wanting a fight just honest to goodness discussion of the issue

[RandyWayne]

There is so much to be said on this issue!

As Doc Brown once shouted out, "Marty! The future isn't set. It is whatever you make it out to be!", so goes our free will.
Of course, in another manner of speaking, the future IS set because God knows what we will be doing tomorrow and the next day, and the moment we die and of what cause.
In our fixed spot in our space-time continuum, I believe we can have both: Total free will and yet still be predestined to make certain choices and have certain things happen to us, which can only be known by someone looking from far FAR above our dimension.

There is so much more to be said on this. For instance in our own universe, when looking at matter at the quantum level we see particles that behave in a certain way based on our mere observation of them. Some see this as evidence of the existence of a multiverse where every possible outcome has already been calculated and happened.

[Praxeas]

What if, while Jesus was about to be crucified...... the Roman Soldier who pierced his side giving him the final blow of death... decided to use his free will and SCREAM out.. "I CAN"t DO THIS, I WON'T DO THIS"

Does our salvation depend on Predestination or Free will?

Not wanting a fight just honest to goodness discussion of the issue
He DID use his free will. It's not predestination but foreknowledge of what he was gonna do with his free will

[Rhoni]

What if, while Jesus was about to be crucified...... the Roman Soldier who pierced his side giving him the final blow of death... decided to use his free will and SCREAM out.. "I CAN"t DO THIS, I WON'T DO THIS"

Does our salvation depend on Predestination or Free will?

Not wanting a fight just honest to goodness discussion of the issue

I believe that God in His foreknowledge knows the path we will take...but we are not individually predestined, but as a corporate body, the church, the bride of Christ...now that is pre-destined!

Just my thoughts. If he predestined us then we really have no choice do we?

[Dr. Vaughn]

Randy, I enjoyed your thoughts on this matter.. interesting about the multiverse....

I for one take great solace and great peace in the fact that I have no enemy that God doesn't allow me to have.. thus freeing me from hate for my enemies.... I have no trial he did not foreordain for me.... He either orders the step of the righteous or he does not

Who can take solace in the fact that this universe is being run by Mans free will...

If the SOLDIER had a free will... he could have stopped salvations plan?

[OnTheFritz]

Someone else would have stepped in.

[RandyWayne]

I believe that God in His foreknowledge knows the path we will take...but we are not individually predestined, but as a corporate body, the church, the bride of Christ...now that is pre-destined!

Just my thoughts. If he predestined us then we really have no choice do we?

We DO have a choice. He just knows what choice we will ultimately make.

[Rhoni]

We DO have a choice. He just knows what choice we will ultimately make.

Exactly what I said:friend

Great minds...and all that!

[Praxeas]

Exactly what I said:friend

Great minds...and all that!
that or you're just a dummy with ESP :ursofunny

[Dr. Vaughn]

Randy, I enjoyed your thoughts on this matter.. interesting about the multiverse....

I for one take great solace and great peace in the fact that I have no enemy that God doesn't allow me to have.. thus freeing me from hate for my enemies.... I have no trial he did not foreordain for me.... He either orders the step of the righteous or he does not

Who can take solace in the fact that this universe is being run by Mans free will...

If the SOLDIER had a free will... he could have stopped salvations plan?

I have been torn for years now on predestination proper or predestination with foreknowledge.... always leaning to predestination with foreknowledge... but I will admit I struggle with it... both arguments are persuasive

I tell you the story about the potter and the clay.... are very persuasive for predestination proper

[RandyWayne]

Exactly what I said:friend

Great minds...and all that!

The thing to remember is that while God knows what we will ultimately do, He doesn't judge us until we actually do it. In the movie Minority Report, people were judged based on crimes they would commit in the future. God doesn't work that way. He KNEW Judas would betray him, yet accepted him (Judas) based on Judas's state of mine at the time he became a disciple, which was probably nearly as 'pure' as the other 11.

[Rhoni]

The thing to remember is that while God knows what we will ultimately do, He doesn't judge us until we actually do it. In the movie Minority Report, people were judged based on crimes they would commit in the future. God doesn't work that way. He KNEW Judas would betray him, yet accepted him (Judas) based on Judas's state of mine at the time he became a disciple, which was probably nearly as 'pure' as the other 11.

His grace is definitely AMAZING!

[Praxeas]

His grace is definitely AMAZING!
So are you.....what am I thinking now? :friend

[Rhoni]

So are you.....what am I thinking now? :friend


That, just like the energizer bunny...I take a beating, and come back for more. How's that?

If you were 50+ and single..well I might flatter myself:tease

[Praxeas]

That, just like the energizer bunny...I take a beating, and come back for more. How's that?

If you were 50+ and single..well I might flatter myself:tease
lol

[ManOfWord]

God has a plan and has "recruited" man to help Him fulfill it. WE determine, for the most part, just who will do that. If we exercise our free will by not cooperating, God will allow someone else to take our place. How do we know that we're not replacements for someone else bailing out?

There is a vast difference between God MAKING something happen and knowing it will happen. :D

[ReformedDave]

We DO have a choice. He just knows what choice we will ultimately make.

If He knows our choices can we make another choice?

[rrford]

If He knows our choices can we make another choice?

Sure.



But He knows you are going to do that also.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Did Hitler have a choice? Or was he predestined to be the HUNTER that God said would rise up and ultimatly drive Israel back to the Promised Lan

[ReformedDave]

Sure.



But He knows you are going to do that also.

Then He doesn't know the first choice if it doesn't come to pass.

[mizpeh]

If He knows our choices can we make another choice?
God knowing our choices doesn't mean we don't have a choice.

[mizpeh]

Did Hitler have a choice? Or was he predestined to be the HUNTER that God said would rise up and ultimatly drive Israel back to the Promised Lan

God predestines according to His foreknowledge of the choices we make.

[Dr. Vaughn]

God predestines according to His foreknowledge of the choices we make.

Here is what I ask a plain answer for....

COULD the Roman Soldier,, used his Free Will and forbid to fulfill the scriptures by giving him Vinegar to drink?

Is your answer yes? or "he would have used the next soldier" ook

Well, the next 10 soldiers all using their FREE WILL refuse to kill Jesus... there are no more soldiers left...... did that solider really have a free will?

Jesus seems to indicate that he did NOT when he said "they know not what they do" in other words.. these guys are clueless,,they have no idea that they are being used in the plan of God...

[Dr. Vaughn]

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” (Romans 9:19)

[Dr. Vaughn]

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? (Romans 9:20-21).

He takes a portion of clay from his pile and he fashions a beautiful vase to be sold at the market for a vast sum. Then from that same lump of clay, he might take another portion of clay and mold a basin to be used by a farmer for feeding his pigs.



No one would ever think of charging the potter with injustice because he had not given equal treatment to both lumps of clay. No one can question the potter’s right to do with the lump of clay as he will. He is the owner of the clay. He is the molder of the pot. He is free to do with it according to his wishes.



The principle is the same here. As the sovereign Creator, God can do anything with His creation that He desires. He is free to act as He chooses

[mizpeh]

Here is what I ask a plain answer for....

COULD the Roman Soldier,, used his Free Will and forbid to fulfill the scriptures by giving him Vinegar to drink?

Is your answer yes? or "he would have used the next soldier" ook

Well, the next 10 soldiers all using their FREE WILL refuse to kill Jesus... there are no more soldiers left...... did that solider really have a free will?

Jesus seems to indicate that he did NOT when he said "they know not what they do" in other words.. these guys are clueless,,they have no idea that they are being used in the plan of God...

Let me put it this way: Before creation God saw the end from the beginning. God knew that the soldier would by his own free will give Jesus vinegar to drink. And knowing this beforehand, God caused the scripture to be written prophetically.

His foreknowledge doesn't change future events UNLESS He decided before creation to influence events to happen a certain way. Acts 15:8 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world

Even before God uttered, "Let there be light..", God knew how the future would unfold. His foreknowledge doesn't change a thing BUT He is able to predestine accordingly and He is able to cause events to happen (He can direct our paths with various means) to lead us one way or another depending upon our choices.

[mizpeh]

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? (Romans 9:20-21).

He takes a portion of clay from his pile and he fashions a beautiful vase to be sold at the market for a vast sum. Then from that same lump of clay, he might take another portion of clay and mold a basin to be used by a farmer for feeding his pigs.



No one would ever think of charging the potter with injustice because he had not given equal treatment to both lumps of clay. No one can question the potter’s right to do with the lump of clay as he will. He is the owner of the clay. He is the molder of the pot. He is free to do with it according to his wishes.



The principle is the same here. As the sovereign Creator, God can do anything with His creation that He desires. He is free to act as He chooses

But in acting as He chooses, God will not go against His character. He cannot be other than who He is. And He is impartial and just.

Romans 9 follows Romans 8 and Romans 8 lays the groundwork for Romans 9 with these verses:


28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

There is clearly an order to God's planning. Foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, glorification. As you can see, the called have been glorified already!!!!! to God it is a reality but since we are living in eternity but in a temporal existence, we will not be glorified until the resurrection. God calls those things which be not as though they were.


And Peter agrees with Paul. We are called according to the foreknowledge of God:

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

[Dr. Vaughn]

But in acting as He chooses, God will not go against His character. He cannot be other than who He is. And He is impartial and just.

Romans 9 follows Romans 8 and Romans 8 lays the groundwork for Romans 9 with these verses:


28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

There is clearly an order to God's planning. Foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, glorification. As you can see, the called have been glorified already!!!!! to God it is a reality but since we are living in eternity but in a temporal existence, we will not be glorified until the resurrection. God calls those things which be not as though they were.


And Peter agrees with Paul. We are called according to the foreknowledge of God:

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

So, where are we disagreeing?

Was God being true to his impartial nature when he ordered the killing of Amaleks babies?

[Pro31:28]

There is so much to be said on this issue!

As Doc Brown once shouted out, "Marty! The future isn't set. It is whatever you make it out to be!", so goes our free will.
Of course, in another manner of speaking, the future IS set because God knows what we will be doing tomorrow and the next day, and the moment we die and of what cause.
In our fixed spot in our space-time continuum, I believe we can have both: Total free will and yet still be predestined to make certain choices and have certain things happen to us, which can only be known by someone looking from far FAR above our dimension.

There is so much more to be said on this. For instance in our own universe, when looking at matter at the quantum level we see particles that behave in a certain way based on our mere observation of them. Some see this as evidence of the existence of a multiverse where every possible outcome has already been calculated and happened.


The Gospel according to Back To The Future! LOVE IT! :ursofunny

[stasis]

The answer is very simple. It's all in the plain words of scripture. People generally try to avoid these scriptures, or they frowardly twist them to be more 'platable', as the blunt truth they present is quite frightening. But... the fear of God (the frightening realization of the power of his sovereignty) is the beginning of Wisdom, and we can learn to take comfort in this (if we are his sheep), such resting (Sabbath) being the very essence of faith ("Trust and obey. God is in control.")


Isaiah 56:9-11

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.


Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Amos 3:6
"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"


We are God's robots. Free-will is the lying doctrine of Babylon, by which man blasphemes the sovereignty of God, and declares himself to be his own god, the dictator of his own destiny. However, the catch is that God even destines men to blaspheme his authority, so he can destroy them.

John 12:40
"He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

Romans 9:22
"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"

So, the God who declares all things from beginning to end has also declared, from the beginning, those who would go to hell, as well as the 'decisions' they would make which would result in this.

God controls everything, including the acts of the Babylonian soldiers who bashed the brains out of the children of Jerusalem, raped the women and pulled the remaining population into captivity. Does God sin in this? No. He is not subject to the laws of good and evil; that law was created by him, FOR US.

He can do what he wants. After all, he's God.

Our acts do not direct or change the future. Rather they are simply the plan of God which has already been set.

[the raven]

The answer is very simple. It's all in the plain words of scripture. People generally try to avoid these scriptures, or they frowardly twist them to be more 'platable', as the blunt truth they present is quite frightening. But... the fear of God (the frightening realization of the power of his sovereignty) is the beginning of Wisdom, and we can learn to take comfort in this (if we are his sheep), such resting (Sabbath) being the very essence of faith ("Trust and obey. God is in control.")


Isaiah 56:9-11

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.


Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Amos 3:6
"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"


We are God's robots. Free-will is the lying doctrine of Babylon, by which man blasphemes the sovereignty of God, and declares himself to be his own god, the dictator of his own destiny. However, the catch is that God even destines men to blaspheme his authority, so he can destroy them.

John 12:40
"He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

Romans 9:22
"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"

So, the God who declares all things from beginning to end has also declared, from the beginning, those who would go to hell, as well as the 'decisions' they would make which would result in this.

God controls everything, including the acts of the Babylonian soldiers who bashed the brains out of the children of Jerusalem, raped the women and pulled the remaining population into captivity. Does God sin in this? No. He is not subject to the laws of good and evil; that law was created by him, FOR US.

He can do what he wants. After all, he's God.

Our acts do not direct or change the future. Rather they are simply the plan of God which has already been set.

Cogent, concise, erudite and not fully accurate BUT the verses are very good!

[Dr. Vaughn]

The answer is very simple. It's all in the plain words of scripture. People generally try to avoid these scriptures, or they frowardly twist them to be more 'platable', as the blunt truth they present is quite frightening. But... the fear of God (the frightening realization of the power of his sovereignty) is the beginning of Wisdom, and we can learn to take comfort in this (if we are his sheep), such resting (Sabbath) being the very essence of faith ("Trust and obey. God is in control.")


Isaiah 56:9-11

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.


Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Amos 3:6
"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"


We are God's robots. Free-will is the lying doctrine of Babylon, by which man blasphemes the sovereignty of God, and declares himself to be his own god, the dictator of his own destiny. However, the catch is that God even destines men to blaspheme his authority, so he can destroy them.

John 12:40
"He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

Romans 9:22
"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"

So, the God who declares all things from beginning to end has also declared, from the beginning, those who would go to hell, as well as the 'decisions' they would make which would result in this.

God controls everything, including the acts of the Babylonian soldiers who bashed the brains out of the children of Jerusalem, raped the women and pulled the remaining population into captivity. Does God sin in this? No. He is not subject to the laws of good and evil; that law was created by him, FOR US.

He can do what he wants. After all, he's God.

Our acts do not direct or change the future. Rather they are simply the plan of God which has already been set.

Never heard it explained any better!

[U376977]

There you have it, this q. always turns into use of hundreds of scriptures and ideas (soldiers crucifying) arguing one way or the other.

BUT are the two mutually exclusive as first understood. Could there be some individuals who are predestined to fulfill their role (Judas, Peter) and others who have free will.

Let me ask the same q. another way.
Does Jn. 3:16 allow for “whosoever will” and Eph. 1:4, “chosen us in him,” speak to the predestined.

[Dr. Vaughn]

There you have it, this q. always turns into use of hundreds of scriptures and ideas (soldiers crucifying) arguing one way or the other.

BUT are the two mutually exclusive as first understood. Could there be some individuals who are predestined to fulfill their role (Judas, Peter) and others who have free will.

Let me ask the same q. another way.
Does Jn. 3:16 allow for “whosoever will” and Eph. 1:4, “chosen us in him,” speak to the predestined.

Excellent question.. I believe THE ELECT is pre destined

[U376977]

Excellent question.. I believe THE ELECT is pre destined

It took me months and years to come to that conclusion. I read Calvin, Branham, others, as well as the other side. And whenever I hear people in this debate I always ask that question and it pretty much ends the discussion.
Right or wrong--it lets boths sides be right. How is that for the art of negotiation! LOL

[Dr. Vaughn]

It took me months and years to come to that conclusion. I read Calvin, Branham, others, as well as the other side. And whenever I hear people in this debate I always ask that question and it pretty much ends the discussion.
Right or wrong--it lets boths sides be right. How is that for the art of negotiation! LOL

Without any snide remarks.. serious question.... Did you really listen to Bro. Branham on this issue? If so, this is exactly what he belived and preached.. did you come away with that?

[U376977]

Without any snide remarks.. serious question.... Did you really listen to Bro. Branham on this issue? If so, this is exactly what he belived and preached.. did you come away with that?

Forgive me if my comments were taken as "snide." I would not be "snide" to you or in reference to Bro. Branham. But to answer your question...I did not "study" his teaching concerning this. I did hear some comments on the tapes now and then and I think I got a basic understanding of what he taught...I used to be on the mailing list and would get the sermon books and I was in a club type thing were I paid monthly and they would send me a batch of his tapes. I maybe have 150 or so of his tapes.

I was a busniess major in college, but my dorm was full of theo majors and we would talk for hours about doctrine. I have to give them some credit also....

[Jack Shephard]

There is so much to be said on this issue!

As Doc Brown once shouted out, "Marty! The future isn't set. It is whatever you make it out to be!", so goes our free will.
Of course, in another manner of speaking, the future IS set because God knows what we will be doing tomorrow and the next day, and the moment we die and of what cause.
In our fixed spot in our space-time continuum, I believe we can have both: Total free will and yet still be predestined to make certain choices and have certain things happen to us, which can only be known by someone looking from far FAR above our dimension.

There is so much more to be said on this. For instance in our own universe, when looking at matter at the quantum level we see particles that behave in a certain way based on our mere observation of them. Some see this as evidence of the existence of a multiverse where every possible outcome has already been calculated and happened.

Nice!

I think that our future is mapped out so to say, but I believe our free will can over ride it and change the future. God knows every move and step we take, but due to the fact He is all-knowing. But He allows us to make ur choices for outselves. IMO

[mizpeh]

So, where are we disagreeing?

Was God being true to his impartial nature when he ordered the killing of Amaleks babies?I'm not sure what you are asking.

[mizpeh]

Excellent question.. I believe THE ELECT is pre destinedSo do I, but I qualify it by saying they are predestined by the foreknowledge of God. IOW before creation God didn't arbitrarily pick and chose who He would justifiy and glorify but He saw the choices we made through our free will He gave us and then He predestined and then He created.

[Maple Leaf]

What if, while Jesus was about to be crucified...... the Roman Soldier who pierced his side giving him the final blow of death... decided to use his free will and SCREAM out.. "I CAN"t DO THIS, I WON'T DO THIS"

Does our salvation depend on Predestination or Free will?

Not wanting a fight just honest to goodness discussion of the issue

John 19:30-34 "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. 31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. 33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water."

A little aside from the current topic.

The soldier did not give Jesus the final blow of death.

Jesus was already dead when the soldier thrust the spear into His side.

[Dr. Vaughn]

So do I, but I qualify it by saying they are predestined by the foreknowledge of God. IOW before creation God didn't arbitrarily pick and chose who He would justifiy and glorify but He saw the choices we made through our free will He gave us and then He predestined and then He created.

Then you believe exactly as William Marrion Branham preached it...

[Dr. Vaughn]

A little aside from the current topic.

The soldier did not give Jesus the final blow of death.

Jesus was already dead when the soldier thrust the spear into His side.

We've already acknowledged that... then we asked what if the Solider refused to BEAT HIM to a pulp. thus leading to his final death?

[stasis]

Is salvation contingent on man's will or God's will? Let's see.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Eph 1:11
"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

Notice, 1:11 doesn't say SOME things, but ALL things. Including your decisions. If you have faith, it is because God arbitrarily chose to place it in you. Repentance is evidence of faith, and only God can cause a man to realize his maggoty nature. Without God's sovereign intervention implanting a new desire to be formed into the image of Christ, we would careen into hell (evidently being vessels of wrath, bastards who are not given the gift of submission to God's reproof and discipline). God alone is responsible for every phase of salvation, as the 'choices' we make toward salvation were not only enabled, but ordained by him. Fear before him!

John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Notice... read closely. This is another PREDESTINATION VERSE. It is saying "All of those who received Christ, did so because God gave them the power to receive him." After all, only the Sons of God can receive (agree with) Christ and (I might add) afterward speak the same words he did (homologeo - 'confess', as in 'confess his name/onoma/authority, i.e. tell men about his absolute sovereignty.))

Salvation DOES NOT (and cannot) depend on man's 'free-will' ('sin-will'), but on God alone, who is the only force that can rouse a man from the dead that he may see the reproach of his sins, giving him the tendency to walk in perpetual repentance. A dead man cannot bring himself to life. Only God can do this. Asking a dead man to 'accept Christ' is like walking up to a casket, holding out a dollar bill and saying 'You can have this money if you come back to life and take it from my hand'.

Also, 'whosoever' does not mean 'who ever wants to'. I do not intent to offend, but that is a very appalaichan way of reading scripture. 'Whosoever' specifies a particular group of 'whos', those who believe, and only God can grant the ability to believe.

"Whichsoever pigs grow wings can fly" does not mean "The pigs that choose to grow wings can fly". Rather, is simply states that the specific pigs who grew wings can fly. The factor of the pigs' 'will' is null, not even mentioned.

Now with this in mind, review these:
"Whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13). "Whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (John 11:26). "Whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43). "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God" (I John 4:15).

Also, Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

In other words, the water of life flows without restraint for those who desire to drink of it. However, according to the fullness of scripture, there is a catch. Firstly, only those who are sheep, given by the Father to Christ before time, will answer the call of "Come". Only those who have faith, which is the gift of God, will desire and thirst for the water of life (blunt truth). So it's clear that 'drinking the water of life' is not contingent on 'free-will' either. God's sovereignty reigns.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Is salvation contingent on man's will or God's will? Let's see.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Eph 1:11
"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

Notice, 1:11 doesn't say SOME things, but ALL things. Including your decisions. If you have faith, it is because God arbitrarily chose to place it in you. Repentance is evidence of faith, and only God can cause a man to realize his maggoty nature. Without God's sovereign intervention implanting a new desire to be formed into the image of Christ, we would careen into hell (evidently being vessels of wrath, bastards who are not given the gift of submission to God's reproof and discipline). God alone is responsible for every phase of salvation, as the 'choices' we make toward salvation were not only enabled, but ordained by him. Fear before him!

John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Notice... read closely. This is another PREDESTINATION VERSE. It is saying "All of those who received Christ, did so because God gave them the power to receive him." After all, only the Sons of God can receive (agree with) Christ and (I might add) afterward speak the same words he did (homologeo - 'confess', as in 'confess his name/onoma/authority, i.e. tell men about his absolute sovereignty.))

Salvation DOES NOT (and cannot) depend on man's 'free-will' ('sin-will'), but on God alone, who is the only force that can rouse a man from the dead that he may see the reproach of his sins, giving him the tendency to walk in perpetual repentance. A dead man cannot bring himself to life. Only God can do this. Asking a dead man to 'accept Christ' is like walking up to a casket, holding out a dollar bill and saying 'You can have this money if you come back to life and take it from my hand'.

Also, 'whosoever' does not mean 'who ever wants to'. I do not intent to offend, but that is a very appalaichan way of reading scripture. 'Whosoever' specifies a particular group of 'whos', those who believe, and only God can grant the ability to believe.

"Whichsoever pigs grow wings can fly" does not mean "The pigs that choose to grow wings can fly". Rather, is simply states that the specific pigs who grew wings can fly. The factor of the pigs' 'will' is null, not even mentioned.

Now with this in mind, review these:
"Whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13). "Whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (John 11:26). "Whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43). "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God" (I John 4:15).

Also, Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

In other words, the water of life flows without restraint for those who desire to drink of it. However, according to the fullness of scripture, there is a catch. Firstly, only those who are sheep, given by the Father to Christ before time, will answer the call of "Come". Only those who have faith, which is the gift of God, will desire and thirst for the water of life (blunt truth). So it's clear that 'drinking the water of life' is not contingent on 'free-will' either. God's sovereignty reigns.

Brother what can you do with the WORD besides say AMEN