This Shocked Me - JTS to allow gays

[Guy]

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/27/america/NA-REL-US-Jewish-Seminary-Gays.php

Conservative NYC Jewish seminary decides to accept gay students
The Associated PressPublished: March 27, 2007

NEW YORK: A conservative Jewish seminary announced that it had decided to accept gay and lesbian students into its rabbinical and cantorial schools, a move that could be as controversial as the decision to admit women to study to become rabbis 25 years ago.

The Jewish Theological Seminary in Manhattan made the decision after three months of debating the issue, the school announced Monday in a statement on its Web site.

"Convictions and feelings are strong on both sides," wrote Chancellor-elect Arnold M. Eisen in a letter to the seminary community posted on its Web site. "Some will cheer this decision as justice long overdue. Others will condemn it as a departure from Jewish law and age-old Jewish custom."

Rabbi Joel Roth of the Jewish Theological Seminary told WABC-TV that Jewish law forbids homosexual acts. "To have rabbis who reflect something that Jewish law forbids is almost an oxymoron," Roth told the TV station. "And it is on those grounds that I oppose the ordination of gay rabbis."

But seminary students told WABC-TV that they were in support of the decision. "Jewish law has never stood still," said Elizabeth Richman. "And we know from looking at our history that even things that it says in the Bible, Jewish tradition has changed according to its own legal traditions. We're confident that the conservative movement has found a way according to Jewish tradition to make changes."

The decision was effective immediately, the seminary announced.

Founded in 1886, the Jewish Theological Seminary is a major school for the teaching of rabbis in the Morningside Heights neighborhood of Manhattan.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Thank God that the types and shadows of the OT.were fulfilled in the new.
Judaism is a false religion so this isn't so surprizing.Without the Holy Ghost people will accept anything.

[SDG]

Thank God that the types and shadows of the OT.were fulfilled in the new.
Judaism is a false religion so this isn't so surprizing.Without the Holy Ghost people will accept anything.

Do you mean some forms of modern judaism ... are false ... because last I checked Jesus was a Jew.

[SDG]

Being a New Yorker ... and having studied at Queens College which was filled w/ Conservative Jews and then at Touro College, a school run by Conservative Jews and Orthodox Jews, I find this surprising ... in some ways.

I'd expect this from the Reformed Jews. However, in New York anything is possible.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I mean the ceremonial law,but look in the genealogy of Christ you find gentiles.Also if you deny the divinity of Christ how can one be saved?
Judaism and NT. Christianity are not the same thing.

[slave4him]

Do you mean some forms of modern judaism ... are false ... because last I checked Jesus was a Jew.

All forms of it are false unless they come by through the New convenant. Jesus being a jew doesnt mean that Judaism is correct today. Different dispensation then.

[SDG]

All forms of it are false unless they come by through the New convenant. Jesus being a jew doesnt mean that Judaism is correct today. Different dispensation then.

Im not a dispensationalist ... in the manner that you are ... I think it's a different covenant ... some God-fearing Jews are living under that covenant and it is still valid in God's eyes .... there are some they have recognize the better covenant and Jesus as the Chosen One, the Messiah.

[Scott Hutchinson]

All forms of it are false unless they come by through the New convenant. Jesus being a jew doesnt mean that Judaism is correct today. Different dispensation then.

I agree,why did the Jews in Paul's day fight him so hard,because what he taught tore up their belief system.The Talmud I understand isn't too kind towards Jesus Christ and his divinity.
Of course all people can become one in Christ.

[Guy]

Being a New Yorker ... and having studied at Queens College which was filled w/ Conservative Jews and then at Touro College, a school run by Conservative Jews and Orthodox Jews, I find this surprising ... in some ways.

I'd expect this from the Reformed Jews. However, in New York anything is possible.

As I understand it this is a conservative although not orthodox school. That I think is why it surprised me.

[Ron]

I am not surprised at all. Seeing how things are going in the world, it is a whole lot more messed up then most of us realize.

[MissBrattified]

The fact that Jesus "was a Jew" offers no support to Judaism, which is formed more on tradition and human translation of scripture than scripture itself. Jesus totally upset their religion, and revealed it for what it was...faulty, manmade, and pharisaical in nature.

[SDG]

Jesus was a law abiding Jew ... He do not come to do away w/ it but to fulfill it ... He did not quarrel w/ the Torah ... he quarreled w/ those would interpret the Torah ... in the manner the Pharisees did ...

He attended synagogue/temple .... as did Jewish Apostles even after their conversion ... or do you think they simply attended to cause trouble ... they would go according to the bible ... TO WORSHIP

[SDG]

God made some serious and binding promises to Abraham about his sons .... some for perpetuity.

For us as gentiles ... to sit here and decide if some are in false religion or if some are saved is OUTRIGHT RIDICULOUS.

We have been grafted into the VINE ... they weren't excessed.

God is dealing differently w/ them ... we would best live according to this better covenant ...

[MissBrattified]

Jesus was a law abiding Jew ... He do not come to do away w/ it but to fulfill it ... He did not quarrel w/ the Torah ... he quarreled w/ those would interpret the Torah ... in the manner the Pharisees did ...

Which is exactly what the seminary in the article has done...they have interpreted with human philosophies and logic rather than godly principles and laws, so why are all your posts on this thread reading like knee-jerk reactions rather than a response to the actual topic and original article????

[Scott Hutchinson]

And if ye be Christ's ,then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.GAL.3:29 So whoever is in Christ is Abraham's seed.
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.He saith not ,And to seeds as of many,And to thy seed which is Christ.GAL.3:16

[SDG]

I agree .... with you Miss Brattfield ... this is against God's Laws .....

but this does not apply to the whole of the Jewish people ... it's one radical outpost in the heart of den of evil ... NYC.

I am responding to notion however that somehow aspects of Judaism are false and no longer part of God's plans .....

Many of the Jewish Apostles were Christians who kept many of the ceremonial laws ... and although Paul did not bind gentiles to such practices ... he kept them.

Acts 21:

17And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.

18And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

26Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

[ThePastorsCoach]

The fact that Jesus "was a Jew" offers no support to Judaism, which is formed more on tradition and human translation of scripture than scripture itself. Jesus totally upset their religion, and revealed it for what it was...faulty, manmade, and pharisaical in nature.

Scott and Miss Bratt - I have been saying this for years and cannot believe that so many "Apostolics" have been caught up in the acceptance of the Jews as "God's Chosen People". They were once - but GOD DIVORCED THEM! They are NOT SAVED. They are Ungodly for the most part and even the most orthodox among them are totally perverted. When you start talking with them and reading and studying them - they are twisted and perverted. The Rabbi's of today are no more than fortune tellers - witchcraft workers - They even call themselves - Mystics!
Judaism today for the most part is a religion based on Mysticism and is not based on the Word of God.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Scott and Miss Bratt - I have been saying this for years and cannot believe that so many "Apostolics" have been caught up in the acceptance of the Jews as "God's Chosen People". They were once - but GOD DIVORCED THEM! They are NOT SAVED. They are Ungodly for the most part and even the most orthodox among them are totally perverted. When you start talking with them and reading and studying them - they are twisted and perverted. The Rabbi's of today are no more than fortune tellers - witchcraft workers - They even call themselves - Mystics!
Judaism today for the most part is a religion based on Mysticism and is not based on the Word of God.

I am not anti-semitic but the Talmud and Kabballa are ungodly books.
When the Jews were in Babylonian captivity alot of them brought Babylonian teachings with them.The OT.goes from a physical seed to a spiritual seed in the NT.Of course the Unbelieving Jews were cut off only due to their unbelief, just like any one else who rejects Christ.

[Felicity]

I am not surprised at all. Seeing how things are going in the world, it is a whole lot more messed up then most of us realize.Vancouver certainly is.

[Ron]

Vancouver certainly is.

Surrey to hear that!:D

[SDG]

bump For Ronzo

[berkeley]

Scott and Miss Bratt - I have been saying this for years and cannot believe that so many "Apostolics" have been caught up in the acceptance of the Jews as "God's Chosen People". They were once - but GOD DIVORCED THEM! They are NOT SAVED. They are Ungodly for the most part and even the most orthodox among them are totally perverted. When you start talking with them and reading and studying them - they are twisted and perverted. The Rabbi's of today are no more than fortune tellers - witchcraft workers - They even call themselves - Mystics!
Judaism today for the most part is a religion based on Mysticism and is not based on the Word of God.

Do you adhere to Dispensationalism??

[SDG]

Do you adhere to Dispensationalism??

Do you Berk?

[RunningOnFaith]

Jesus totally upset their religion, and revealed it for what it was...faulty, manmade, and pharisaical in nature.

Matthew 23:2-3 The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

This passage of scripture seems very clear to me that Jesus recognized at least to some extent the teaching authority of the Pharisees.

John 11:49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all. 50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish." 51He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation

Even in Caiphas' utter depravity and wickedness, by virtue of the office that he held by the mandate of the law of God, was used as an instrument of God to proclaim a glorious truth. So God was faithful to his covenant people and even used corrupt people to reveal his means of grace.

[berkeley]

Do you Berk?No. :)

[SDG]

Jesus problem w/ the Pharisees was their attitude ... he never argued doctrine w/ them.

[Ronzo]

The fact that Jesus "was a Jew" offers no support to Judaism, which is formed more on tradition and human translation of scripture than scripture itself. Jesus totally upset their religion, and revealed it for what it was...faulty, manmade, and pharisaical in nature.
I don't know what to say... except that this is wrong. Totally wrong.

Jesus didn't destory Judaism. He fulfilled it. He was the epitomy of a Jew. That means he kept the feasts... the customs... the traditions (the ones based on biblical principals).

Sure, he exposed the out of balance teachings - there's no doubt about that, but he didn't come to destroy Judaism and start a NEW religion of "Christianity". He came to fulfill the 'religion' that his people practiced... Judaism.

The fact that he came as a Jew absolutely supports Judaism (of that time, of course).

[Ronzo]

Jesus problem w/ the Pharisees was their attitude ... he never argued doctrine w/ them.Correct, except when their doctrine was out of balance...

However, for the most part, of ALL the sects at the time, Jesus' teachings were closest to the Pharisees overall.

[Ronzo]

Yes, God divorced the Jews... but if he was through with them, Jesus would not have come to them.

He came unto his own.

He didn't give up on them.

Ask yourself...
Who were the first believers? Gentiles or Jews?

[berkeley]

....and they recieved Him not...

[Scott Hutchinson]

Certainly the early church came from those who praticed Mosaic Judaism.But is being a Jew one adheres to Judaism or a race?

[berkeley]

Certainly the early church came from those who praticed Mosaic Judaism.But is being a Jew one adheres to Judaism or a race?Today, a Jew is one that adheres to Judaism. Atheist "Jews" are just Israeli's.

[berkeley]

Scott,

Study Galatians!!

[Scott Hutchinson]

I have GAL.6:16 The Church.

[SDG]

What say ye ???



Romans 11

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

[Ronzo]

....and they recieved Him not...
How did your NT get written then? lol

[Scott Hutchinson]

The unbelieving Jews were cast away by their unbelief.God did not cut them off.They cut themselves off by their unbelief.

[SDG]

This sounds like it's not fulfilled ...

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

[Scott Hutchinson]

What is the times of the gentiles?

[SDG]

What is the times of the gentiles?

You tell me ... ????

[berkeley]

I have GAL.6:16 The Church.What? Are you serious?? But what about what Dan just posted?? :slaphappy

[Ronzo]

One more point and y'all can start boiling the oil to dunk me in...

Have fun...



"The Church" did not REPLACE Israel. The Church is an extension of Israel. We gentiles are grafted in.


It's interesting that Paul uses the olive tree as the metaphor for the gentiles being grafted into Israel, because when something is grafted into an olive tree, that something becomes an olive tree. The olive tree's life takes over that piece that was grafted in to it. The graft doesn't retain its own structure. It assumes that of the tree that now gives it life.

[Scott Hutchinson]

You tell me ... ????

I''ll answer a question with a question when were the Jews taken captive by all nations?See Luke 21:20-24.What army was compromised of men from all of the nations of the then known world?

[SDG]

One more point and y'all can start boiling the oil to dunk me in...

Have fun...



"The Church" did not REPLACE Israel. The Church is an extension of Israel. We gentiles are grafted in.


It's interesting that Paul uses the olive tree as the metaphor for the gentils being grafted into Israel, because when something is grafted into an olive tree, that something becomes an olive tree. The olive tree's life takes over that piece that was grafted in to it. The graft doesn't retain its own structure. It assumes that of the tree that now gives it life.

I posted this idea of us grafted in the vine earlier... my Dad always love to teach this ..

I just feel there are some things he's promised to Israel through the prophets that are yet unfulfilled ...

[Scott Hutchinson]

Who are Abraham's seed now?If favor is given by God,to someone because of their race,then God is a respector of persons.

[SDG]

I''ll answer a question with a question when were the Jews taken captive by all nations?See Luke 21:20-24.What army was compromised of men from all of the nations of the then known world?

I'm not going to discuss preterism tonight unless you can prove without a shadow of doubt that Jesus touched down on Mt. Olive in 70 A.D

[berkeley]

Who are Abraham's seed now?If favor is given by God,to someone because of their race,then God is a respector of persons.

Just take out a pen and cross out where it reads "...neither Jew or Greek.."

[berkeley]

I'm not going to discuss preterism tonight unless you can prove without a shadow of doubt that Jesus touched down on Mt. Olive in 70 A.D

Scott doesn't believe in Preterism.

[SDG]

Just take out a pen and cross out where it reads "...neither Jew or Greek.."

Was he a respector of persons in the Old Covenant ...???

[Scott Hutchinson]

What does this mean maybe I'm missing something.
For the promise that he should be the heir of the world ,was not to Abraham ,or to his seed,through the law,but the righteousness by faith.ROM.4:13 Who now is the seed of Christ?

[Scott Hutchinson]

I mean no one any ill-will but maybe I'm missing something.But I see both Jew and Gentile as one man in Christ.The gates of hell shall not prevail agains't who? The Church.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Was he a respector of persons in the Old Covenant ...???

But is he is in The NT?

[Scott Hutchinson]

Good night I love you all in Jesus Name.

[ThePastorsCoach]

What does this mean maybe I'm missing something.
For the promise that he should be the heir of the world ,was not to Abraham ,or to his seed,through the law,but the righteousness by faith.ROM.4:13 Who now is the seed of Christ?

The Church of the Living God - the Blood bought Saints of the most high God are the seed of Abraham!

[SDG]

so the Church wasn't really born on Pentecost ... Scott???? ... because the way I see it you're suggesting all this was fulfilled in 70 A.D .... which means their were still two covenants ... at least until that year ....

[berkeley]

The Church of the Living God - the Blood bought Saints of the most high God are the seed of Abraham!Thank you!! :)

[Scott Hutchinson]

The law was being practiced but it was not valid,when the temple was destroyed,the levitical preisthood ceased as well as animal sacrifices in Jerusalem.The only covenant that was recognized by God was the one the shedding of his blood brought in.

[SDG]

The law was being practiced but it was not valid,when the temple was destroyed,the levitical preisthood ceased as well as animal sacrifices in Jerusalem.The only covenant that was recognized by God was the one the shedding of his blood brought in.

So the temple will never be rebuilt and sacrifices will never be reinstituted????

[berkeley]

So the temple will never be rebuilt and sacrifices will never be reinstituted????
Do you believe that God is going to accept their sacrifices??

[Scott Hutchinson]

Put it like this,if a temple is to be rebuilt God won't be in animal sacrifices,unless He returns to the OT?His sacrifice is once for all for salvation.

[SDG]

Do you believe that God is going to accept their sacrifices??

Didn't say that they would be. accepted.. will it happen the temple and sacrifices be rebuilt in the future???

Although ....

I find it interesting that Paul made some type of offering ... not sure what kind ....

in Acts 21

26Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Gentlemen I must retire I appreciate you may we all know what we believe and why we believe it.My best to you.

[SDG]

Put it like this,if a temple is to be rebuilt God won't be in animal sacrifices,unless He returns to the OT?His sacrifice is once for all for salvation.

I agree ... but it's not to say they won't try to rebuild it ... with sacrifices being part of it ... and what about the Anti-Christ entering it..???

[berkeley]

Rom 11:25-26 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

We read that all Israel shall be saved. But no where do we read this will occur outside the church. And especially after reading Romans 10 - the chapter preceding this - do we understand that verse 26 has to occur IN THE CHURCH alone. In fact, Paul said Israel was only cut off due to the fact that they had unbelief.

Rom 11:20 KJV Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

What did they not believe? The Gospel of the Church! And so if they believe the GOSPEL of the CHURCH, and GET SAVED IN THE CHURCH, they will be saved. Paul said this will occur.

Rom 11:23 KJV And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.


But the whole point is not so much whether this already occurred or not, but rather that it will occur THROUGH THE CHURCH and not apart from the church after the church is removed from the earth.

Also, it says through OUR MERCY shall Israel obtain mercy. That means, the same mercy we received in the GOSPEL is how Israel will be saved. Not by something other than the church. The New Testament NEVER SAID Israel can be saved outside the church. Reading both Romans 10 and Romans 11 shows Israel will be saved IN THE CHURCH.


Eze 18:1-4 KJV The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, (2) What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? (3) As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. (4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


No more in Israel could anyone say that someone was judged because an ancestor sinned. Dispensationalists say that Israel is blinded to this day because their ancestors rejected Jesus. That is impossible according to Ezekiel 18. Before Ezekiel 18 sons were judged due to their fathers' sins. But this would be said NO MORE in Israel after Ezekiel 18. So the blindness we read about in Romans 11 cannot apply to today.

Rom 11:25 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

[berkeley]

Rom 11:25-26 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

We read that all Israel shall be saved. But no where do we read this will occur outside the church. And especially after reading Romans 10 - the chapter preceding this - do we understand that verse 26 has to occur IN THE CHURCH alone. In fact, Paul said Israel was only cut off due to the fact that they had unbelief.

Rom 11:20 KJV Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

What did they not believe? The Gospel of the Church! And so if they believe the GOSPEL of the CHURCH, and GET SAVED IN THE CHURCH, they will be saved. Paul said this will occur.

Rom 11:23 KJV And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.


But the whole point is not so much whether this already occurred or not, but rather that it will occur THROUGH THE CHURCH and not apart from the church after the church is removed from the earth.

Also, it says through OUR MERCY shall Israel obtain mercy. That means, the same mercy we received in the GOSPEL is how Israel will be saved. Not by something other than the church. The New Testament NEVER SAID Israel can be saved outside the church. Reading both Romans 10 and Romans 11 shows Israel will be saved IN THE CHURCH.


Eze 18:1-4 KJV The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, (2) What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? (3) As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. (4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


No more in Israel could anyone say that someone was judged because an ancestor sinned. Dispensationalists say that Israel is blinded to this day because their ancestors rejected Jesus. That is impossible according to Ezekiel 18. Before Ezekiel 18 sons were judged due to their fathers' sins. But this would be said NO MORE in Israel after Ezekiel 18. So the blindness we read about in Romans 11 cannot apply to today.

Rom 11:25 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
bump for Dan

[SDG]

I'LL EXAMINE IT SLOWLY ... This one must be digested slowyl

[berkeley]

Rom 11:25-26 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

We read that all Israel shall be saved. But no where do we read this will occur outside the church. And especially after reading Romans 10 - the chapter preceding this - do we understand that verse 26 has to occur IN THE CHURCH alone. In fact, Paul said Israel was only cut off due to the fact that they had unbelief.

Rom 11:20 KJV Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

What did they not believe? The Gospel of the Church! And so if they believe the GOSPEL of the CHURCH, and GET SAVED IN THE CHURCH, they will be saved. Paul said this will occur.

Rom 11:23 KJV And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.


But the whole point is not so much whether this already occurred or not, but rather that it will occur THROUGH THE CHURCH and not apart from the church after the church is removed from the earth.

Also, it says through OUR MERCY shall Israel obtain mercy. That means, the same mercy we received in the GOSPEL is how Israel will be saved. Not by something other than the church. The New Testament NEVER SAID Israel can be saved outside the church. Reading both Romans 10 and Romans 11 shows Israel will be saved IN THE CHURCH.


Eze 18:1-4 KJV The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, (2) What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? (3) As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. (4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


No more in Israel could anyone say that someone was judged because an ancestor sinned. Dispensationalists say that Israel is blinded to this day because their ancestors rejected Jesus. That is impossible according to Ezekiel 18. Before Ezekiel 18 sons were judged due to their fathers' sins. But this would be said NO MORE in Israel after Ezekiel 18. So the blindness we read about in Romans 11 cannot apply to today.

Rom 11:25 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.:igotit

[berkeley]

Dan...

[berkeley]

I will keep bumping this till Dan posts something!!!

[berkeley]

Rom 11:25-26 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

We read that all Israel shall be saved. But no where do we read this will occur outside the church. And especially after reading Romans 10 - the chapter preceding this - do we understand that verse 26 has to occur IN THE CHURCH alone. In fact, Paul said Israel was only cut off due to the fact that they had unbelief.

Rom 11:20 KJV Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

What did they not believe? The Gospel of the Church! And so if they believe the GOSPEL of the CHURCH, and GET SAVED IN THE CHURCH, they will be saved. Paul said this will occur.

Rom 11:23 KJV And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.


But the whole point is not so much whether this already occurred or not, but rather that it will occur THROUGH THE CHURCH and not apart from the church after the church is removed from the earth.

Also, it says through OUR MERCY shall Israel obtain mercy. That means, the same mercy we received in the GOSPEL is how Israel will be saved. Not by something other than the church. The New Testament NEVER SAID Israel can be saved outside the church. Reading both Romans 10 and Romans 11 shows Israel will be saved IN THE CHURCH.


Eze 18:1-4 KJV The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, (2) What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? (3) As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. (4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


No more in Israel could anyone say that someone was judged because an ancestor sinned. Dispensationalists say that Israel is blinded to this day because their ancestors rejected Jesus. That is impossible according to Ezekiel 18. Before Ezekiel 18 sons were judged due to their fathers' sins. But this would be said NO MORE in Israel after Ezekiel 18. So the blindness we read about in Romans 11 cannot apply to today.

Rom 11:25 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

DAN .....

[SDG]

Read 10 and 11 last night ... and came to the same conclusion

Also, it says through OUR MERCY shall Israel obtain mercy. That means, the same mercy we received in the GOSPEL is how Israel will be saved. Not by something other than the church. The New Testament NEVER SAID Israel can be saved outside the church. Reading both Romans 10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Romans+10) and Romans 11 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Romans+11) shows Israel will be saved IN THE CHURCH

The last verses of Chapter 11 are crucial to understanding this text.

[berkeley]

Read 10 and 11 last night ... and came to the same conclusion


The last verses of Chapter 11 are crucial to understanding this text.what was your belief before this??

[SDG]

what was your belief before this??

I don't know if I had a belief before this ... of course ... It's obvious that Israel will one day recognize him as the Messiah and obtain the mercy we agree upon ...

... I'm not a dispensationalist ... yet I still believe that God has some unfinished business ....w/ Israel .... and the Jewish people ....there is something to say about covenants ... that's what I think.

[berkeley]

I don't know if I had a belief before this ... of course ... It's obvious that Israel will one day recognize him as the Messiah and obtain the mercy we agree upon ...

... I'm not a dispensationalist ... yet I still believe that God has some unfinished business ....w/ Israel .... and the Jewish people ....there is something to say about covenants ... that's what I think.
Dan,

You have some clarity, but you are still seeing through a dark glass. The Old Covenant is gone. The promises were to the seed of Abraham. You are the seed of Abraham. God does not have two covenants silmutaneously.

P.S. The answer to your question "how were sins remitted in the OT" is found in Hebrews 9. :)

[mfblume]

Hi all,

Israel indeed must come to God through the church. The New Testament says nothing about any other means.

Some say the Old Testament overlooked the church age, since they feel Israel was expected to accept Christ and never see Christ crucified. So dispensationalism proposed PLAN A failed, and the church is PLAN B -- with the cross and all. That is why they feel the church age was overlooked by the prophets. But it actually was not. All the prophecies of the gentiles coming in are about the church age! I think saying that these prophecies of gentiles coming in actually speak of a "millennium" has done a great disservice to the church and fulfillment of prophecy.

[Coonskinner]

Hi all,

Israel indeed must come to God through the church. The New Testament says nothing about any other means.

Some say the Old Testament overlooked the church age, since they feel Israel was expected to accept Christ and never see Christ crucified. So dispensationalism proposed PLAN A failed, and the church is PLAN B -- with the cross and all. That is why they feel the church age was overlooked by the prophets. But it actually was not. All the prophecies of the gentiles coming in are about the church age!

Brother Blume,

I have no intention of getting into a protracted argument with you on prophecy, as I am not well studied enough in that area.

But while I am what some probably call a dispensationalist, I have never believed the Church was Plan B.

Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Prophets are replete with prophecies about the church age.

That may be the view of some small portion of men calling themselves "dispensationalists," but I do not think it represents the view of many.

It certainly doesn't represent my view.

I don't know exactly where my views would fall on the lexicon...

I believe Jesus Christ will come back to rapture his church.

I believe the dead in Christ reside in a place of rest, but not The New Jerusalem. They will rise first to meet the lord in the air.

I don't believe any Jews are going to be saved between Pentecost and the rapture without the New Birth, just like us gentiles.

Beyond that, I am still pondering.

[mfblume]

Brother Blume,

I have no intention of getting into a protracted argument with you on prophecy, as I am not well studied enough in that area.

But while I am what some probably call a dispensationalist, I have never believed the Church was Plan B.

Hi Brother,

Your version is not classic dispensationalism, I see. It is not the actual dispensationalism that is mainstream.

Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Prophets are replete with prophecies about the church age.Amen and amen.

That may be the view of some small portion of men calling themselves "dispensationalists," but I do not think it represents the view of many.

It certainly doesn't represent my view.It really is the larger view of the stream of thought, though.



I don't know exactly where my views would fall on the lexicon...

I believe Jesus Christ will come back to rapture his church.

I believe the dead in Christ reside in a place of rest, but not The New Jerusalem. They will rise first to meet the lord in the air.

I don't believe any Jews are going to be saved between Pentecost and the rapture without the New Birth, just like us gentiles.

Beyond that, I am still pondering.Check this out... I spoke to Parson lately and he believed the prophecies in Isaiah about Jerusalem with gates opened for gentiles to come, and sunlight not being necessary due to God's glory is not the same fulfillment as Rev 21's New Jerusalem. He actually said there were to be TWO CITIES... and they were similar because God builds them both.

I showed him this:



Premillennial Scheme

At the Second Coming of Christ

(1) Resurrection.

(2) Judgment of wicked.

(3) Judgment of Satan.

(4) Entrance into 1000 year Kingdom.

(5) Millennial city with gates open for gentiles to bring honour into it

(6) Millennial city with no need of sun and moon,m since God's glory lightens it

(7) Millennial City adorned as a bride for her husband

(8) A Millennial Temple with a river flowing from it.

(9) The river has trees on both sides whose leaves are for healing and monthly fruit for food.


At the End of the Millennium

(1) Resurrection.

(2) Judgment of wicked.

(3) Judgment of Satan.

(4) Entrance into the eternal kingdom.

(5) Heavenly city with gates open for gentiles to bring honour into it

(6) Heavenly city with no need of sun and moon, since God's glory lightens it

(7) Heavenly City adorned as a bride for her husband

(8) A Heavenly City whose temple is God and the Lamb with a river flowing from God and the Lamb.

(9) The river has trees on both sides whose leaves are for healing and monthly fruit for food.

[mfblume]

This is the note I gave to Parson to cause him to say there are TWO CITIES -- Millennial Jerusalem and Eternal New Jerusalem.


----------------------


References to Jerusalem and Israel in the Old Testament prophecies of the end are meant to be understood as spiritual statements for the Church and not natural Israel.

Dispensationalists claim New Jerusalem is not for the natural Israelites, but that Natural Israel will come to God outside anything to do with the Church, since the New Jerusalem/Church is the Bride, and Israel will never be the Bride.

The following prophecies regard JERUSALEM. Using Disp. rule of thumb, we cannot apply them to the church, nor New Jerusalem, since Disp. claims natural Jerusalem or Israel can only be understood when they are named so, and NOT SPIRITUALIZED as being the church, New Jerusalem.

The following verses indicate the chapter is addressed to Jacob which Disp. claims is natural Israel, distinguishing her from Gentiles.

Isa 60:16 KJV Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.


Isa 60:1-5 KJV Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. (2) For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. (3) And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. (4) Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. (5) Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
The above is commonly referred to as a prophecy of natural Israel in the Millennium.

Yet we read the same thing in this chapter that we read about the New Jerusalem which Disp. claims CANNOT BE natural Israel.

Isa 60:11 KJV Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

Rev 21:25-26 KJV And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Isa 60:14 KJV The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

Rev 21:2 KJV And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Isa 60:19 KJV The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

Rev 21:23 KJV And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Isa 61:10 KJV I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Rev 21:2 KJV And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
The next chapter in Isaiah is a continuation of the prophecy to Zion and Jerusalem.

Isa 62:1 KJV For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.

Isa 62:6 KJV I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,
Isa 62:11-12 KJV Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. (12) And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.
We read the same language used in chapter 61 about gentiles coming to her:

Isa 62:2 KJV And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Zion and Jerusalem are the theme throughout these chapters to chapter 66! Therein we read about the wolf and lamb laying together, which Disp. claims is Millennial Israel.

Isa 65:25 KJV The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
Meanwhile the entire context from chapter 62, and possibly further back, is about Jerusalem and Zion, and every chapter mentions Jerusalem at least, even the ones that read identically to Rev 21 about the NEW JERUSALEM. Disp. says the wolf and lamb is millennium and not the church, but scattered throughout these chapters about Jerusalem are statements that clearly reflect the New Jerusalem In Revelation. Is part talking about CHURCH in New Jerusalem, whenever this occurs, and another part is about natural Jerusalem? Must we conclude that references to Jerusalem when the Wolf and Lamb lay together is millennium, when New Jerusalem exists during Millennium, but that in such instances, calling it "JERUSALEM" means NEW JERUSALEM, which is the bride and church in that day?

If JERUSALEM in these chapters refers to NEW JERUSALEM, which is clearly involving the bride and church (even if Disp. says it is during millennium), then we must still spiritualize Jerusalem to not be natural Jerusalem.

Therefore, the idea of spiritualizing references to JERUSALEM as referring to the church is substantiated by even Disp., for they know very well that natural Jerusalem is not the New Jerusalem, yet they insist we cannot take prophecies to Jerusalem and apply them to the church for they insist they refer only to natural Jerusalem if they say "Jeruslaem."

I have proven, using these chapters that state things Revelation 21 states about the New Jerusalem, that everytime the prophecies speak of Jerusalem they are not speaking abvout Natural Jerusalem.

God bless! :)

[Scott Hutchinson]

Here is some food for thought.
http://scionofzion.com/millennium.htm

[Coonskinner]

If I am not a classic dispensationalist, how would you describe my views?

What "camp" do I fit in?

[mfblume]

If I am not a classic dispensationalist, how would you describe my views?

What "camp" do I fit in?


Perhaps a upc-ized version of dispensationalsim. ;)

[berkeley]

Perhaps a upc-ized version of dispensationalsim. ;)

That's a better description. Didn't dispensationalism arrive on the scene about the same time the Mormons gained some ground?

[mfblume]

That's a better description. Didn't dispensationalism arrive on the scene about the same time the Mormons gained some ground?

Come to think of it, you're right.

[mfblume]

Romans teaches Israel will not be saved in a millennium outside the church age.

The entire concept of the book of Romans' notes on Israel all point to inclusion into the church.

ROMANS 9

Rom 9:1-8 KJV I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, (2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. (3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: (4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: (7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Notice that Paul's answer to a hypothetical question as to whether or not God's promises are of effect is based upon the then-present situation of Israel in unbelief. Paul speaks about how Israel, for the most part, was lost in his day since they rejected the new covenant. And then Paul makes the remark: "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect." In other words, Paul knew people might conclude that God's promises were ineffective, due to the state of Israel abiding in unbelief. But Paul says that is not the case.

But in light of such a situation where IT LOOKS like God's promises were ineffective, IF DISPENSATIONALISTS were correct, Paul would have said this...

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For God shall remove the church in the rapture, and there will be an additional age in this earth after the church age. And it is in that future millennium that God will fulfill His promises to Israel."

THAT IS NOT WHAT WE READ. That WOULD HAVE BEEN what we read if dispensationalism were true. But look carefully at what it actually says.

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

Did you read that???? Paul says that the promises of God are still true! But when you read about ISRAEL receiving these promises, Paul said, NOT ALL ISRAEL IS ISRAEL. In other words, what people commonly think of as Israel is NOT WHAT GOD THINKS OF WHEN HE THINKS OF ISRAEL. He said nothing about a millennium to fulfill those promises. Instead, he points to his day and simply says not all Israel is Israel. That implies the promises were fulfilled IN HIS DAY.

Then Paul explains:

" Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. "

Just because people are physically descended from Abraham, it does not mean they are the children of Abraham to whom the promises would be made. The Old Testament said, "IN ISAAC SHALL THY SEED BE CALLED."

Think about this. Abraham had two sons, whom he physically fathered. But we know that ISAAC was the ONLY SON thath God recognized, because he was the child of promise, while Ishmael was child of the flesh. So Paul takes that and says that natural Israel in his day, though they physically descended from Isaac and not Ishmael , was considered ISHMAEL becuase of their spiritual state.

This is remarkable!

And Paul said that the only children of Abraham God considers, in his promises to Israel, are the children of promise!

Paul continued:

Rom 9:9-13 KJV For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. (10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) (12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. (13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


In both Rachel and Sarah's cases, there were TWO CHILDREN born and ONLY ONE was considered the one through whom the inheritance would occur. In both cases there was a child of the flesh that was not reckoned. Ishmael and Esau.

So, the conclusion is that -- YES -- the promises are fulfilled! But they're not fulfilled for the FLESHLY ISRAEL, but the "CHILDREN OF PROMISE" Israel. Not all of Israel is Israel. That implies SOME ARE. In other words, amongst natural Israel, some were Christians, and are considered the TRUE HEIR OF PROMISE. But not all naturally born in Israel are considered. So we cannot look at ALL ISRAEL to see whether or not the promises took effect.

But what about the gentiles in the church?

Paul picks up on this in Gal 4 and uses the EXACT SAME PICTURE of Isaac and Ishmael, and speaks of unebeliving Jews as ISHMAEL compared to Christians considered ISAAC. And in Gal 4's case, the believing GENTILES are involved, because the Galatians were gentiles in the church.

Gal 4:21-31 KJV Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? (22) For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. (23) But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. (24) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. (25) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (27) For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. (28) Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. (29) But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. (30) Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. (31) So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


So that is Romans 9. Now, onto Romans 10.

[mfblume]

Romans 10.

In Romans 10, we read of a certain WORD that was said to not be far from people., It was as close as being in their mouths and in their hearts.

Rom 10:8 KJV But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;


This is written in the context that is speaking about Israel once again.

Rom 10:8 KJV But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;


They lived by the righteousness that Moses preached, which was righteousness by works, and was impossible to attain.

Rom 10:3-9 KJV For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. (4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. (5) For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. (6) But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) (7) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) (8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; (9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


So, the word of righteousness preached by the church is the only TRUE means to righteousness. And Paul quoted from Deuteronomy 30 in order to explain this. Paul quoted Deuteronomy 30 and said it was referring to a specific WORD which is actually the WORD OF FAITH PAUL PREACHED. Paul's interpretation of Deut 30's command to Israel was that it was the WORD OF FAITH PREACHED BY THE CHURCH.

So let us read Deut 30 and find how Moses spoke of this WORD in order to deal with Israel in the book of Romans. I will highlight the portion Paul interpreted as the WORD OF FAITH.

Deu 30:1-14 KJV And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, (2) And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; (3) That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. (4) If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: (5) And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. (6) And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. (7) And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. (8) And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day. (9) And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers: (10) If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. (11) For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. (12) It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? (13) Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? (14) But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.


Notice that the WORD Paul interpreted as the word of faith preached in the New Testament church is "THIS COMMANDMENT". And when you read from the start of the chapter, it is the same commandment we read about here:

(2) And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; (3) That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

Notice it involves PROMISES TO ISRAEL. And it specifically regards them BEING GATHERED after they have been scattered. And God said He would not GATHER THEM UNTIL THEY OBEY THE WORD OF COMMAND.

Deu 30:1-3 KJV And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, (2) And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; (3) That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.


Was Israel gathered by God in 1948? NO!!!!!! According to this chapter, God WOULD ONLY GATHER THEM when they obey the WORD OF FAITH PREACHED BY PAUL.

So what was the gathering of 1948 to Israel? Despite all appearances, we have to stand on the Word of God. And the Word of God clearly states they must obey the word of faith BEFORE God gathers them. And they had not done that in 1948. So what occurred in 1948 was a gathering of people to the middle east, but was not what God was talking about in Deut 30. According to Paul's words in Romans 10, the gathering IS ONLY FULFILLED SPIRITUALLY. Otherwise, Paul was wrong in Romans 10! Paul interpreted the word they must obey in order for God to gather them as being the WORD OF FAITH PAUL PREACHED.

Now we know Abraham searched for a city, and we claim Heb 12:22 proves that CITY is the Church!.

With that in mind, read this:

Deu 30:20 KJV That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Heb 11:16 KJV But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


Hebrews interprets the COUNTRY they sought as a HEAVENLY ONE, and not earthly. All the earthly ideas of prophecy all have names for cities and countries that are mentioned in the New Testament as BEING SPIRITUAL ENTITIES NOW.

Heb 12:22-23 KJV But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, (23) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


In other words, all the earthly Zion and Jerusalem and LAND was considered fulfilled in the SPIRITUAL Zion, Jerusalem and LAND. The apostles SAID NOTHING ELSE ABOUT ANY OTHER WAY OF FULFILLMENT. And they directly referred to these prophecies and applied them to the church. So what are we going to believe? Something the apostles never said about a millennium when they are fulfilled, or what THEY DID SAY about these prophecies applied to the church?

[SDG]

I knew you'd like this topic ... dispensationalism ... that is.

[mfblume]

Romans 11.

With all in mind that we see in Romans chapters 9 and 10, we then come to Romans 11.

Paul said that a remnant was saved from Israel. And that there also would be the consideration for the rest of Israel. He said all Israel would be saved. When we read the following verses, people have missed the little word "SO".

Rom 11:25-26 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


"AND SO" means, "in the preceding manner described." All Israel would be saved IN THE PRECEDING MANNER DESCRIBED. And that means we have to go back before 11:26 and see what manner God said he would use to save Israel. Initially we see that reference is made in verse 25 to blindness lifted from Israel as a reason for the reference to their salvation.

And we will get to that. We already noted in Romans 9 that "not all Israel is Israel", and the promises of God are not ineffective, but fulfilled in consideration of whom God considers Israel to be. And Paul said Israel in God's mind was only those people amongst the nation who were believers. Gal 4 includes believing Gentiles in that number. Romans 10 said the WORD OF FAITH PAUL PREACHED was the word commanded in Deut 30 as the means to see Israel regathered to God when scattered.

In Romans, NOT ONE WORD WAS SAID ABOUT a millennium fulfilling the promises. The CHURCH's word of faith alone is mentioned. And Paul even stated in Romans 11 that HE PREACHED IN ORDER TO CAUSE JEALOUSY AMONGST THE JEWS to incite them to get saved. He did not say he was to forget about reaching Israel since they were blinded by God, but rather sought to stir them up to get saved IN HIS DAY through jealousy, by preaching to Gentiles.

Rom 11:13-14 KJV For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: (14) If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.


Then he writes:

Rom 11:15 KJV For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?


Paul called the receiving of Israel, being life from the dead, as the effects of his ministry to gentiles being successful in saving SOME OF THEM! He did not say "life from the dead" will be what Israel's salvation in the millennium will be. He said "life form the dead" would be the results of Israelites being saved BY HIS PREACHING TO GENTILES IN HIS DAY!

He says nothing about a millennium!

Rom 11:23 KJV And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.


Paul also said that if Israel departs from unbelief, they shall be graffed into the olive tree again. What was the nature of their unbelief? They rejected the WORD OF FAITH PAUL AND OTHERS PREACHED! So the only way they can depart from unbelief is to believe by accepting and believing the word of faith Paul preached.

Rom 11:25-26 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


Paul then said a mystery existed which was that Israel shall all be saved. Blindness had come on Israel until the fullness of gentiles comes in. So, all Israel will be saved. "AND SO" also refers to the moment when BLINDNESS is removed.

Now, we must talk about this blindness. One verse cannot contradict another. We all know why God blinded Israel.

Rom 11:7-10 KJV What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. (9) And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: (10) Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.


Israel rejected Christ. So God blinded them. This is also found in Romans 1.

Rom 1:18-28 KJV For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: (25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. (26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. (28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


This is techincally speaking about the heathen gentile nations, and their idolatry and sexual perversion that were simply forbidden in Israel. But the principle is the same for Israel. God revealed truth to people, and they refused to glorify God with that truth, and rejected the truth. So He revealed wrath to them and gave them over to reprobate minds. That is the same thing that Romans 11 said about blindness coming on Israel.

Now, the question we must ask ourselves is whether or not God does that to DESCENDANTS of people who committed the sin that brought on blindness. We know God blinded those people who rejected Christ. But is the blindness still there? I say NO.

Eze 18:1-4 KJV The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, (2) What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? (3) As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. (4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


The soul that sins shall die, and not the child of the soul who sins. The soul that sins shall be punished, and not the descendant of the soul who sins.

The proverb means that if the parent ate sour grapes, the children would be affected by it and feel their teeth set on edge. In other words, the sins of the father would come upon the children. Just as a father eats grapes and his children experiences their teeth set on edge, if the father commits a sin the children would suffer the penalty. God said this was the case before Ezekiel 16 was written. But it would NO MORE BE SAID IN ISRAEL. THINGS CHANGED. That means, that the idea that the Jews' unbelief in Christ COULD NOT AFFECT THEIR DESCENDANTS, otherwise God lied in Ezekiel 18. And Ezekiel 18 specifically referred to ISRAEL, which is the nation in question in Romans 11!

So, getting back to Romans 11, the blindness that would be lifted after the fullness of the gentiles come in must have been fulfilled after that first generation who rejected Christ was over.

But the simplest answer for Romans 11 is that PAUL SAID NOTHING ABOUT A MILLENNIUM AFTER THE CHURCH AGE, IN WHICH ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED AND COME BACK TO GOD. If he believed in it, he would have stated it in answer to the apparent ineffectiveness of God's promises to Israel in Romans 9. But he did not. He simply said, "Not all Israel is Israel." He did not even use a future tense term in responding to that, which he would have done had the millennium been the fulfillment of the promises to Israel. Paul used the term "IS". In Paul's day, to which the question applied in regards to Israel's promises, Paul said, "Not all Israel IS Israel." He implied the concern for prophetic fulfillment was HIS DAY, not a future millennium.

When Paul said ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED, he said NOTHING about it occurring OUTSIDE THE CHURCH in a future millennium after the church is gone. He actually said quite the opposite in Romans 10.

[mfblume]

I knew you'd like this topic ... dispensationalism ... that is.

heh heh. Yes. "Dispensationalism": <--Mine enemy. Actually, I would more say I like the topic of THE CHURCH BEING THE LAST THING IN GOD'S MIND FOR PLANET EARTH.

[mfblume]

If Israel is blinded today, it is on an individual basis, not national, in the same way any other individual of another nation is blinded>

2Co 4:4 KJV In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

These are my thoughts on the issue, and request people consider them sincerely. And I also do not think these are matters that determine fellowship. :)

[berkeley]

Brother Blume,

great thoghts!! I have nothing to add. lol

[mfblume]

Brother Blume,

great thoghts!! I have nothing to add. lol

Thanks, brother. What else can we say, when the bible says all of this?

[berkeley]

Thanks, brother. What else can we say, when the bible says all of this?I think many see this truth, but because of tradition they refuse to accept it. When you have the basics right (salvation) it is hard to admit that you may be wrong in other areas. JMO.

[mfblume]

I think many see this truth, but because of tradition they refuse to accept it. When you have the basics right (salvation) it is hard to admit that you may be wrong in other areas. JMO.

Oner man had a very insightful thought about dispensationalism. In light of the fact that there are no statements made by the Lord and apostles about a millennium, and about "seven dispensations" and a final one after the church age, and only one vision that has to be symbolic of the teachings they did give in the epistles and not something different like a millennium, ....such people would never come up with nor teach salvation doctrine in the way they derive their prophecy doctrines. That should say something.

[berkeley]

such people would never come up with nor teach salvation doctrine in the way they derive their prophecy doctrines. That should say something.
Right. When people want current events to fit prophecy they will make one part fit, but the rest of the pieces don't match. :ignore

I have a question. How do you interpret IThessalonians 4:12-17 ??

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[mfblume]

Right. When people want current events to fit prophecy they will make one part fit, but the rest of the pieces don't match. :ignore

I have a question. How do you interpret IThessalonians 4:12-17 ??

I agree with the futurists in this scripture. It is the future rapture of the church, correspondent to 1 Cor 15 where we read that not all will sleep (die and be buried in graves) but all will be changed, whether in graves or still alive, when the Lord comes.

1Co 15:51-54 KJV Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

[berkeley]

I agree with the futurists in this scripture. It is the future rapture of the church, correspondent to 1 Cor 15 where we read that not all will sleep (die and be buried in graves) but all will be changed, whether in graves or still alive, when the Lord comes.Oh, right.. Partial.. lol. How do those who embrace Fulfilled Eschatology interpret this passage??

[mfblume]

Oh, right.. Partial.. lol.

Partial preterism implies partial futurism. :)

How do those who embrace Fulfilled Eschatology interpret this passage??

Well, to be honest with you, it is a wild thought full preterists have. I understand full preterism can also be called "MODERN Preterism", as opposed to "historical preterism" which is partial.

This scripture and their argument for it is one of the strongest reasons I think full preterism is a good thing taken much too far to the extent of ridiculous extremes. Some say this only refers to a catching up in joy and glee.

Others speak about the term "AIR" and ascertain what it refers to. One man wrote this:

...but what does the word "air" mean? Is it in our atmosphere or the air we breath? We can compare with other Scriptures in Eph 2:2: "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience." The word "air" is an another word for heavenly or spiritual realm. Satan was always an opponent of the scheme of the redemption as we can see throughout the Bible. He was (but is no longer) the prince of the power of the air. In Rom. 16:20 Paul says that Satan would be crushed "shortly" (see Gen 3:15). Jesus now has taken over that sphere and rules in the "air" with the saints since the destruction of Jerusalem. If that is the same "air" where the saints were to meet and be gathered, then there is no necessity for us to believe that the rapture gathering and meeting was to be physical and visible either. It was accomplished when the faithful remnant of Jewish believers with the ingrafted Gentiles was transformed (and transferred) into Christ's new spiritual Israel (new covenant) when the old fleshly-based (old covenant) was taken away in AD 70. The "gathering together" is the heavenly places in Christ - the spiritual kingdom of God. Satan is no longer around here; he is now in the lake of fire.

However, the term HARPADZO used in 1 Thess 4 has been used in Acts 8 when Philip was CAUGHT AWAY and physically translated to another location after baptizing the Ethiopian eunuch. It is a physical catching away. The latin word for this term suggest the english word "RAPTURE."