Adam & Eve Coequal In Authority Before Fall ?

[1Corinth2v4]

(sigh)


Well, here's my first deleted post within an "unnamed forum." The following quote is a message I received from their admin:




Hi,
Your discussion with regard to Adam and Eve has the potential to lead to negative conversion thus it was removed. Thanks for limiting discussions that have practical application to our current dispensation




So.........I guess I'll post it here!



We read within the New Testament that man is the head of women (1Corinth 11:3), basically women are under subjection to men.

But the question lies, were Adam and Eve coequal in authority before the fall of man?


Notice:

Genesis 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.



Also,


Genesis 2:20
And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.



Help Meet: Azar (aw-zar')
A primitive root; to surround, i.e. Protect or aid -- help, succour


There is no subjection between two creatures working in unison to complete a task (help meet).


So........


A portion of women's/Eve's curse was "thy husband shall rule over thee." My belief is Adam and Eve were coequal in authority before the fall of man.

If you disagree, and if subjection between a man and women was established prior to the fall of Adam/Eve, why did God announce subjection over Eve (women) as a curse for being disobedient?







:feedback

[Rhoni]

They are still co-equal. The only change is in roles as punishment for the sins committed.

The form of 'submission' you are referring to is not biblical. God made the man responsible for the sins of himself and his wife. When Adam tried to blame Eve for his sin...God punished him by making him responsible for both.

Just like Adam tried to blame Eve for his transgression against God...men today still do the same thing. God didn't let Adam get away with it then...he don't let him get away with it now.

[Dr. Vaughn]

They are absolutely not co-equal..... I have rule over my children and they are not equal with me,, they are children.. they have been placed under my subjection

I love how we say man and woman are equal when GOD HIMSELF calls her the WEAKER VESSELL.. if we are equal then we are equal in all.......its a travesty to the plan of God to make equal what God has made unequal

I work for a company.. there is a man in that company who is NOT MY EQUAL>> WHY? He has the power over me... he has the power and the authority to make my life peaceful or make it a living hell... I am NOT equal to him. Imagine that.... I am an UNDERLING to this man.. WHY? GOD TOLD ME "slaves obey your masters"

I ask you did Paul consider the slave (employee) equal to his master (employer)

A man is not equal to Christ.. why? Because the head of every man is Christ....

Question.. is the foot equal to the head? Of course not, without the head the entire body cannot function.. without the foot the body can still function,, are they both important? Absolutely....... Do they compliment one another? Absolutely but the foot will never be equal to the head....

When you have a HEAD such as man has a HEAD,, which is CHRIST.. he is not now nor will he ever be EQUAL to CHRIST...... the same applies with man and woman.. she has a HEAD... how can she ever be equal to her head?

That would be like saying children are EQUAL with their parents..... how can they be when the parents are the HEAD of the children?

[Rhoni]

They are absolutely not co-equal..... I have rule over my children and they are not equal with me,, they are children.. they have been placed under my subjection

I love how we say man and woman are equal when GOD HIMSELF calls her the WEAKER VESSELL.. if we are equal then we are equal in all.......its a travesty to the plan of God to make equal what God has made unequal

I work for a company.. there is a man in that company who is NOT MY EQUAL>> WHY? He has the power over me... he has the power and the authority to make my life peaceful or make it a living hell... I am NOT equal to him. Imagine that.... I am an UNDERLING to this man.. WHY? GOD TOLD ME "slaves obey your masters"

I ask you did Paul consider the slave (employee) equal to his master (employer)

A man is not equal to Christ.. why? Because the head of every man is Christ....

Question.. is the foot equal to the head? Of course not, without the head the entire body cannot function.. without the foot the body can still function,, are they both important? Absolutely....... Do they compliment one another? Absolutely but the foot will never be equal to the head....

When you have a HEAD such as man has a HEAD,, which is CHRIST.. he is not now nor will he ever be EQUAL to CHRIST...... the same applies with man and woman.. she has a HEAD... how can she ever be equal to her head?

That would be like saying children are EQUAL with their parents..... how can they be when the parents are the HEAD of the children?

Not talking about children...talking about man and wife.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Darcie]

They are absolutely not co-equal..... I have rule over my children and they are not equal with me,, they are children.. they have been placed under my subjection

I love how we say man and woman are equal when GOD HIMSELF calls her the WEAKER VESSELL.. if we are equal then we are equal in all.......its a travesty to the plan of God to make equal what God has made unequal

I work for a company.. there is a man in that company who is NOT MY EQUAL>> WHY? He has the power over me... he has the power and the authority to make my life peaceful or make it a living hell... I am NOT equal to him. Imagine that.... I am an UNDERLING to this man.. WHY? GOD TOLD ME "slaves obey your masters"

I ask you did Paul consider the slave (employee) equal to his master (employer)

A man is not equal to Christ.. why? Because the head of every man is Christ....

Question.. is the foot equal to the head? Of course not, without the head the entire body cannot function.. without the foot the body can still function,, are they both important? Absolutely....... Do they compliment one another? Absolutely but the foot will never be equal to the head....

When you have a HEAD such as man has a HEAD,, which is CHRIST.. he is not now nor will he ever be EQUAL to CHRIST...... the same applies with man and woman.. she has a HEAD... how can she ever be equal to her head?

That would be like saying children are EQUAL with their parents..... how can they be when the parents are the HEAD of the children?

Are you married?

[TRFrance]

"Hi,
Your discussion with regard to Adam and Eve has the potential to lead to negative conversion thus it was removed. Thanks for limiting discussions that have practical application to our current dispensation"

"negative conversion" ?

Some of these forums amaze me.

[Rhoni]

"Hi,
Your discussion with regard to Adam and Eve has the potential to lead to negative conversion thus it was removed. Thanks for limiting discussions that have practical application to our current dispensation"
"negative conversion" ?

Some of these forums amaze me.

If you don't want conflict or debate then this would not be a good thread to allow to continue. I can see possible ramifications.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Not talking about children...talking about man and wife.

Blessings, Rhoni

Were talking about Gods Order... Christ has been placed below God
Man has been placed below Christ
Woman has been placed below man
Children has been placed below woman

and we try to persuade men that all of the above equals = equality

[Dr. Vaughn]

Are you married?

Happily for 15 years....only one time by the way

[Rhoni]

Were talking about Gods Order... Christ has been placed below God
Man has been placed below Christ
Woman has been placed below man
Children has been placed below woman

and we try to persuade men that all of the above equals = equality

BELOW?:club You have no idea what God was talking about...just admit it:tease

[Dr. Vaughn]

BELOW?:club You have no idea what God was talking about...just admit it:tease

Are you below your boss? or equal to him or her?

To get in his face when he has all authority over your life from 9-5 (speaking hypothetically) and tell him _----- I'm EQUAL TO YOU would be financial suicide.. anyone knows what EQUAL means... it means THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE.. it's just not true with man and woman... God told woman that her only desire in life now will be towards her husband

Tell me that Sarah thought she was equal to Abraham when she called him LORD... and then Paul tells the women that they are the children of SARAH

[Dr. Vaughn]

BELOW?:club You have no idea what God was talking about...just admit it:tease

Is man not below Christ? or do you think we are his equal?

if you can answer that then all the others positions of order bear the same answer...

[Rhoni]

Are you below your boss? or equal to him or her?

To get in his face when he has all authority over your life from 9-5 (speaking hypothetically) and tell him _----- I'm EQUAL TO YOU would be financial suicide.. anyone knows what EQUAL means... it means THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE.. it's just not true with man and woman... God told woman that her only desire in life now will be towards her husband

Tell me that Sarah thought she was equal to Abraham when she called him LORD... and then Paul tells the women that they are the children of SARAH

Sorry don't have time to allow people to get confused in your words. You define the scriptures and everything else according to your own standard.:aaa

Blessings, Rhoni

[Dr. Vaughn]

Sorry don't have time to allow people to get confused in your words. You define the scriptures and everything else according to your own standard.:aaa

Blessings, Rhoni

e·qual
1. as great as; the same as : The velocity of sound is not equal to that of light.

Man and woman was created equal... the same as and each as great as the other... until the curse... then women was placed beneath her husband.. and no longer his equal........

In Christ we are all equal and once we leave this cursed world we will all regain our equality.. but as long as snakes slither and as long as women scream in childbirth... nothing has changed

[Rhoni]

e·qual
1. as great as; the same as : The velocity of sound is not equal to that of light.

Man and woman was created equal... the same as and each as great as the other... until the curse... then women was placed beneath her husband.. and no longer his equal........

In Christ we are all equal and once we leave this cursed world we will all regain our equality.. but as long as snakes slither and as long as women scream in childbirth... nothing has changed

BENEATH...:whistle

[Dr. Vaughn]

BENEATH...:whistle

Was Christ placed beneath God?
Was man placed beneath Christ?

all the other answers would be the same....neither is better than the other.. but they are definitly not equal

[Michael The Disciple]

Woman was made FOR the man. Eve was a HELP MEET for Adam. So no they were not co equal before the fall. Neither are they now except as equal members of the body of the Messiah.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Woman was made FOR the man. Eve was a HELP MEET for Adam. So no they were not co equal before the fall. Neither are they now except as equal members of the body of the Messiah.

Michael... I absolutely stand corrected in one sense... however if this is the case then why after the fall... the whole issue of submission comes up and she is told to now submit to her husband?

However, I perfectly agree that woman was made for the man and not the man for the woman

[LUKE2447]

It amazes me the feminism that has hit the church, while ignoring didactic teaching in the sciptures. What has happened in the last 100 years shows the decline of society. When you destroy the base principle of who you are in God by divine order of creation you are cutting the root out of a God fearing society.

[Darcie]

Are you married?

They are absolutely not co-equal..... I have rule over my children and they are not equal with me,, they are children.. they have been placed under my subjection

I love how we say man and woman are equal when GOD HIMSELF calls her the WEAKER VESSELL.. if we are equal then we are equal in all.......its a travesty to the plan of God to make equal what God has made unequal

I work for a company.. there is a man in that company who is NOT MY EQUAL>> WHY? He has the power over me... he has the power and the authority to make my life peaceful or make it a living hell... I am NOT equal to him. Imagine that.... I am an UNDERLING to this man.. WHY? GOD TOLD ME "slaves obey your masters"

I ask you did Paul consider the slave (employee) equal to his master (employer)

A man is not equal to Christ.. why? Because the head of every man is Christ....

Question.. is the foot equal to the head? Of course not, without the head the entire body cannot function.. without the foot the body can still function,, are they both important? Absolutely....... Do they compliment one another? Absolutely but the foot will never be equal to the head....

When you have a HEAD such as man has a HEAD,, which is CHRIST.. he is not now nor will he ever be EQUAL to CHRIST...... the same applies with man and woman.. she has a HEAD... how can she ever be equal to her head?

That would be like saying children are EQUAL with their parents..... how can they be when the parents are the HEAD of the children?

Happily for 15 years....only one time by the way

You are blessed to have a woman stand beside you for 15 years. But your Head to Foot comparisson frankly just bothers me.

My husband says he is the head, but I'm the neck. The neck supports the head and the head needs the neck to move.

I understand the order that God has set in motion, but my husband never lets me feel that I'm beneath him. That's how your post came across.

[Michael The Disciple]

Michael... I absolutely stand corrected in one sense... however if this is the case then why after the fall... the whole issue of submission comes up and she is told to now submit to her husband?

However, I perfectly agree that woman was made for the man and not the man for the woman

The issue came up because many women then did not want to submit any more than today. So the Lord was reminding them of their role.

[Rico]

The issue of a woman being subject to her husband is a carnal issue pertaining to this life here on Earth. From a spiritual standpoint, there is no difference between a man and a woman.

[Dr. Vaughn]

You are blessed to have a woman stand beside you for 15 years. But your Head to Foot comparisson frankly just bothers me.

My husband says he is the head, but I'm the neck. The neck supports the head and the head needs the neck to move.

I understand the order that God has set in motion, but my husband never lets me feel that I'm beneath him. That's how your post came across.

Darcie.. please forgive me if I came across wrong with the head or foot comparison.. the same could have been said of the neck.. the neck might turn the head but the head TELLS THE NECK when to turn...

blessings

[Dr. Vaughn]

The issue of a woman being subject to her husband is a carnal issue pertaining to this life here on Earth. From a spiritual standpoint, there is no difference between a man and a woman.

and as long as we live in a carnal world.. we are bound to honor the laws God has put into place concerning the order in this carnal world...

However, I would suggest since Paul mentions that angels observing our submission.. that it actually transcends the earthly and serves as a reminder of the ORDER in the heavenly

[Steve Epley]

I have been conflicted in my thinking for years on this topic. From the curse it seems she may have been co-equal in authority but reading Paul's writings I am less sure? The passage in 1Corinthians 11 goes back to the creation order and it seems man was the head in the original creation?

[Rico]

and as long as we live in a carnal world.. we are bound to honor the laws God has put into place concerning the order in this carnal world...

However, I would suggest since Paul mentions that angels observing our submission.. that it actually transcends the earthly and serves as a reminder of the ORDER in the heavenly

DV, you aren't going to be "over" your wife in Heaven, so make sure to give her all the instructions you plan on giving her while the two of you are still here on Earth. That's what I plan on doing with mine! :D

[Dr. Vaughn]

I have been conflicted in my thinking for years on this topic. From the curse it seems she may have been co-equal in authority but reading Paul's writings I am less sure? The passage in 1Corinthians 11 goes back to the creation order and it seems man was the head in the original creation?

I'm reading it as we speak Elder.... I am on the fence here.. but just knowing that she was created FOR MAN.... speaks to me of being in an inferior or at least subservient position from the beginning..... I would like to see supporting scriptures for the "co equal" in creation theory.. which I have always just assumed was right, I suppose.

[Dr. Vaughn]

DV, you aren't going to be "over" your wife in Heaven, so make sure to give her all the instructions you plan on giving her while the two of you are still here on Earth. That's what I plan on doing with mine! :D

LOL, nor shall I be responsible for her spiritual well being any longer..

[1Corinth2v4]

I guess many have overlooked this question.

Once again, if subjection between a man and women was established prior to the fall of Adam/Eve, why did God announce subjection over Eve (women) as a curse for being disobedient?

[Rhoni]

I'm reading it as we speak Elder.... I am on the fence here.. but just knowing that she was created FOR MAN.... speaks to me of being in an inferior or at least subservient position from the beginning..... I would like to see supporting scriptures for the "co equal" in creation theory.. which I have always just assumed was right, I suppose.

I think it was man, when God created him ...did not say it was good until he had a woman to complete him. Women are not inferior or to be in a subordinate position...are you a nut job?:crazy

[Rhoni]

LOL, nor shall I be responsible for her spiritual well being any longer..

There is no scripture giving you spiritual responsibility for your wife, just like there is no scripture for men to be the high priest of their home. I think you are on the wrong forum...your views are not Apostolic at all...but of your own arrogant thinking.

[Dr. Vaughn]

There is no scripture giving you spiritual responsibility for your wife, just like there is no scripture for men to be the high priest of their home. I think you are on the wrong forum...your views are not Apostolic at all...but of your own arrogant thinking.

gotta love it..... someone who can clearly ignore scriptures

Eva was clearly created as a HELPER to ADAM.. she was made FOR THE MAN.. he was not created for woman....

God CLEARLY teaches that a woman is not in any way equal to man

Quick Question... two people are competing in a weight lifting tournament.... one lifts 500 pounds the other cannot do it because they are weaker... are they equal? No.. one came in lacking

God says the woman is THE WEAKER not the EQUAL but the WEAKER VESSELL

Actually, my views are more Apostolic than you can imagine.... waay before being Apostolic was Kewl

[Dr. Vaughn]

There is no scripture giving you spiritual responsibility for your wife, just like there is no scripture for men to be the high priest of their home. I think you are on the wrong forum...your views are not Apostolic at all...but of your own arrogant thinking.

Wow, no responsibility for my wife..... I love it.. God made me the head of something I am not responsible for.....

I suppose this now means.. Christ is no longer responsible for my salvation either.. since he is my head.....

things get more interesting around here every day... CHRIST MUST PRESENT ME TO THE FATHER.. HE IS MY HEAD.. I am recognized IN HIM

[Rico]

gotta love it..... someone who can clearly ignore scriptures

Eva was clearly created as a HELPER to ADAM.. she was made FOR THE MAN.. he was not created for woman....

God CLEARLY teaches that a woman is not in any way equal to man

Quick Question... two people are competing in a weight lifting tournament.... one lifts 500 pounds the other cannot do it because they are weaker... are they equal? No.. one came in lacking

God says the woman is THE WEAKER not the EQUAL but the WEAKER VESSELL

Actually, my views are more Apostolic than you can imagine.... waay before being Apostolic was Kewl

While I am not defending your views, I will say that Rhoni can be a bit feminist and anti male at times in her postings. She will deny it, but it does happen. Kinda the way what you're saying sounds a bit anti female, even though you see it as standing up for the Word of God.

[1Corinth2v4]

I guess many have overlooked this question.

Once again, if subjection between a man and women was established prior to the fall of Adam/Eve, why did God announce subjection over Eve (women) as a curse for being disobedient?

Bump




Will any answer my question above?

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The divine order is the thing we have to look at. The opposite of divine order is chaos. While we are in his order we will have peace with God. To be out of order is to be lifted up with pride. We do not believe what God says or even the consequence that comes from disobedience. We know better than God. The first thing that Satan wants to do is to bring doubt to Gods Word. It is not a matter of who is greater or lesser, God gave the command to Adam as to what his will is. Adam was not deceived but willingly disobeyed God. Sin did not enter in by woman but by man even though Eve transgressed the Word of God first. Adam chose not to listen to the voice of God but rather to Eve. All three suffered the consequence of disobedience, Adam, Eve, & the serpent. Death came through Adam however. Adam was to be the keeper and dispenser of the Word of God. God came and said Adam where art thou. Did you eat of the tree which I commanded THEE that thou shouldest not eat?

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Satan was the first to sin by being lifted up with pride he thought he could ascend above the throne of God and deceived even one third of the angels.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon,
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Eve was deceived and because of this she is still to be in subjection to her husbands will or direction inasmuch as he is subject to Gods will. If man is out of the divine will of God then she is to be subject to Gods will first. Satan in his craftiness will try to beguile the church by corrupting our thoughts from having faith and believing God.

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
2Co 11:3 But I fear lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, so your thoughts should be corrupted from the simplicity due to Christ.

1Co 7:13 And the woman which hath a husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1Co 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Even when the husband is not subject to God she can remain with him if does not stop her from serving the Lord.

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;


Comments on these verses any body. It is not about Machismo and subjecting a woman or wife wrongly but the way in which God has ordained for us to treat the weaker vessel as Christ loved the church. He gave himself for it. He did not put it down but raised it up. He did not condemn it he edified it. He wants to present to himself without spot or blemish

[Rico]

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The divine order is the thing we have to look at. The opposite of divine order is chaos. While we are in his order we will have peace with God. To be out of order is to be lifted up with pride. We do not believe what God says or even the consequence that comes from disobedience. We know better than God. The first thing that Satan wants to do is to bring doubt to Gods Word. It is not a matter of who is greater or lesser, God gave the command to Adam as to what his will is. Adam was not deceived but willingly disobeyed God. Sin did not enter in by woman but by man even though Eve transgressed the Word of God first. Adam chose not to listen to the voice of God but rather to Eve. All three suffered the consequence of disobedience, Adam, Eve, & the serpent. Death came through Adam however. Adam was to be the keeper and dispenser of the Word of God. God came and said Adam where art thou. Did you eat of the tree which I commanded THEE that thou shouldest not eat?

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Satan was the first to sin by being lifted up with pride he thought he could ascend above the throne of God and deceived even one third of the angels.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon,
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Eve was deceived and because of this she is still to be in subjection to her husbands will or direction inasmuch as he is subject to Gods will. If man is out of the divine will of God then she is to be subject to Gods will first. Satan in his craftiness will try to beguile the church by corrupting our thoughts from having faith and believing God.

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
2Co 11:3 But I fear lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, so your thoughts should be corrupted from the simplicity due to Christ.

1Co 7:13 And the woman which hath a husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1Co 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Even when the husband is not subject to God she can remain with him if does not stop her from serving the Lord.

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;


Comments on these verses any body. It is not about Machismo and subjecting a woman or wife wrongly but the way in which God has ordained for us to treat the weaker vessel as Christ loved the church. He gave himself for it. He did not put it down but raised it up. He did not condemn it he edified it. He wants to present to himself without spot or blemish

This is a good post. :thumbsup

[Dr. Vaughn]

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The divine order is the thing we have to look at. The opposite of divine order is chaos. While we are in his order we will have peace with God. To be out of order is to be lifted up with pride. We do not believe what God says or even the consequence that comes from disobedience. We know better than God. The first thing that Satan wants to do is to bring doubt to Gods Word. It is not a matter of who is greater or lesser, God gave the command to Adam as to what his will is. Adam was not deceived but willingly disobeyed God. Sin did not enter in by woman but by man even though Eve transgressed the Word of God first. Adam chose not to listen to the voice of God but rather to Eve. All three suffered the consequence of disobedience, Adam, Eve, & the serpent. Death came through Adam however. Adam was to be the keeper and dispenser of the Word of God. God came and said Adam where art thou. Did you eat of the tree which I commanded THEE that thou shouldest not eat?

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Satan was the first to sin by being lifted up with pride he thought he could ascend above the throne of God and deceived even one third of the angels.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon,
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Eve was deceived and because of this she is still to be in subjection to her husbands will or direction inasmuch as he is subject to Gods will. If man is out of the divine will of God then she is to be subject to Gods will first. Satan in his craftiness will try to beguile the church by corrupting our thoughts from having faith and believing God.

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
2Co 11:3 But I fear lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, so your thoughts should be corrupted from the simplicity due to Christ.

1Co 7:13 And the woman which hath a husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1Co 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Even when the husband is not subject to God she can remain with him if does not stop her from serving the Lord.

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;


Comments on these verses any body. It is not about Machismo and subjecting a woman or wife wrongly but the way in which God has ordained for us to treat the weaker vessel as Christ loved the church. He gave himself for it. He did not put it down but raised it up. He did not condemn it he edified it. He wants to present to himself without spot or blemish

Brother I am sooo impressed that you understand that Adam was not deceived.. he willingly sinned therefore taking his brides sin upon him as Christ did WILLINGLY that she might live IN HIM......

[Old Paths]

There is no scripture giving you spiritual responsibility for your wife, just like there is no scripture for men to be the high priest of their home. I think you are on the wrong forum...your views are not Apostolic at all...but of your own arrogant thinking.



Hmmmmm

Speaking of arrogant.


:ursofunny

[Pastor DTSalaz]

This is where the world goes wrong. Some women want to do what they want even when it goes against the Word of God. The main problem lies in mans inability to take the lead and say this is what the Word of the Lord says and we should follow it. Men are afraid to stand their ground on the principles of Gods Word. This in no way demeans women but rather sets the parameters in which their relationship is to exist with each other and to God.

Satan knew that the command was given to Adam. He then subtly deceived Eve and caused her to usurp the authority of Adam by causing him to disobey God. Man did not take his rightful place in leading his wife to obedience but followed her into disobedience.

This causes chaos because when the divine order is not followed then anything goes. If man is not subject to God then why should a woman be subject to him. Then his children will not be subject to them or any authority. The defiance to authority is perpetuated. Parents, Teachers, Police, Government, Pastor. This all goes back to what satan originally posed "Did God really say that".

I teach that you can know if a young man is going to be faithful to his fiance by looking at his checkbook and visa versa. Being faithful to God in the small things reveals how the attitude will be in the greater things. If they cannot be faithful to God then they probably won't be faithful to each other. If we think we can deceive God then how easy it is to try to deceive each other. If the wife sees that her husband is sincerely subjecting himself to Gods will then it will be easier for her to be subject to him. Why? because he is trying to follow Gods leading. This will show. Does he have her best interests at hand?

When a young lady is subject to her parents this is symbolized by her wearing a wedding dress with a veil. This represents that she has remained subject to her earthly authority. Her parents and their direction. Her husband lifts the veil to reveal the lifting of that authority of her parents and now she is subject to the leading of her new authority. Her Husband. Together now, she is supposed to be his help meet to live a life together according to Gods Holy ordinances.

That is why we need to choose wisely. Look for a husband or a wife, not just a date. This is a lifetime commitment. Just like the commitment we make to the Lord.

Pro 18:22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favor of the LORD.
Pro 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.

Pro 6:20 My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
Pro 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
Pro 6:24 To keep thee from the evil woman, from the flattery of the tongue of a strange woman.
Pro 6:25 Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.
Pro 6:26 For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life.

[1Corinth2v4]

I teach that you can know if a young man is going to be faithful to his fiance by looking at his checkbook and visa versa. ].

Oh please!

[Dr. Vaughn]

This is where the world goes wrong. Some women want to do what they want even when it goes against the Word of God. The main problem lies in mans inability to take the lead say this is what the Word of the Lord says and we should follow it. Men are afraid to stand their ground on the principles of Gods Word. This in no way demeans women but rather sets the parameters in which their relationship is to exist with each other and to God.

Satan knew that the command was given to Adam. He then subtly deceived Eve and caused her to usurp the authority of Adam by causing him to disobey God. Man did not take his rightful place in leading his wife to obedience but followed her into disobedience.

This causes chaos because when the divine order is not followed then anything goes. If man is not subject to God then why should a woman be subject to him. Then his children will not be subject to them or any authority. The defiance to authority is perpetuated. Parents, Teachers, Police, Government, Pastor. This all goes back to what satan originally posed "Did God really say that".

I teach that you can know if a young man is going to be faithful to his fiance by looking at his checkbook and visa versa. Being faithful to God in the small things reveals how the attitude will be in the greater things. If they cannot be faithful to God then they probably won't be faithful to each other. If we think we can deceive God then how easy it is to try to deceive each other. If the wife sees that her husband is sincerely subjecting himself to Gods will then it will be easier for her to be subject to him. Why? because he is trying to follow Gods leading. This will show. Does he have her best interests at hand?

When a young lady is subject to her parents this is symbolized by her wearing a wedding dress with a veil. This represents that she has remained subject to her earthly authority. Her parents and their direction. Her husband lifts the veil to reveal the lifting of that authority of her parents and now she is subject to the leading of her new authority. Her Husband. Together now, she is supposed to be his help meet to live a life together according to Gods Holy ordinances.

That is why we need to choose wisely. Look for a husband or a wife, not just a date. This is a lifetime commitment. Just like the commitment we make to the Lord.

Pro 18:22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favor of the LORD.
Pro 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.

Pro 6:20 My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
Pro 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
Pro 6:24 To keep thee from the evil woman, from the flattery of the tongue of a strange woman.
Pro 6:25 Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.
Pro 6:26 For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life.

Brother,, our churces need this kind of teaching.. I love the teaching about the veil

[MissBrattified]

Just one technicality..."helpmeet" is not one word. The term is actually a PHRASE: "help, meet for him." "Meet" is a word that stands alone and means counterpart or mate. Or, "part opposite" (opposite part). She was created as a help[ful] counterpart or mate.

I think the problem is that saying a woman (or even a child) is "beneath" you seems to place less value on the woman or child, so it sounds insulting to phrase it that way. My children are not beneath me. (In the negative sense of the term.) They are temporarily in my care, and therefore under my authority, but only as a means to an end, which is to nurture them and train them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Also, the relationship between parent and child is in no way comparable to that between a man and his wife. A man is to sacrifice for his wife, give himself for her, to prefer her, to live with her as the weaker vessel. That means you handle her gingerly and carefully, and wisely, because she is the weaker vessel. Unfortunately, some men think this means they shove the weaker vessel out of the way.

A woman is definitely to submit to her husband, but he does not have the right force or demand submission. It has to be freely given, or it isn't submission, and he is no longer like Christ when he uses his authority in a demanding or forceful way.

As for before the fall...why was there no instruction to Adam to rule over his wife, or to the wife to submit to her husband prior to the fall? Those seemed to be results of sin, NOT the original intent of the creator. Counterpart seems to imply the second piece of a two-part puzzle. Equal, but different. I doubt either of them had authority over the other. The man NEEDED the woman, and woman was created FOR the man. The idea that God created men and women for different reasons does not imply that they were not originally equal. Did both of them have equal dominion or authority over the earth?

The scriptures that refer to a woman being created for the man simply highlight that need, in my opinion, and do not point to any real pre-fall authority on Adam's part.

[Rhoni]

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The divine order is the thing we have to look at. The opposite of divine order is chaos. While we are in his order we will have peace with God. To be out of order is to be lifted up with pride. We do not believe what God says or even the consequence that comes from disobedience. We know better than God. The first thing that Satan wants to do is to bring doubt to Gods Word. It is not a matter of who is greater or lesser, God gave the command to Adam as to what his will is. Adam was not deceived but willingly disobeyed God. Sin did not enter in by woman but by man even though Eve transgressed the Word of God first. Adam chose not to listen to the voice of God but rather to Eve. All three suffered the consequence of disobedience, Adam, Eve, & the serpent. Death came through Adam however. Adam was to be the keeper and dispenser of the Word of God. God came and said Adam where art thou. Did you eat of the tree which I commanded THEE that thou shouldest not eat?

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Satan was the first to sin by being lifted up with pride he thought he could ascend above the throne of God and deceived even one third of the angels.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon,
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Yeah and amen!


Eve was deceived and because of this she is still to be in subjection to her husbands will or direction inasmuch as he is subject to Gods will. If man is out of the divine will of God then she is to be subject to Gods will first. Satan in his craftiness will try to beguile the church by corrupting our thoughts from having faith and believing God. This is not a direct quote but a personal interpretation.

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
God doesn't expect us to be a virgin when coming to him but he covers us and makes a virgin to present to himself a bride without spot or wrinkle. How many men would do as Christ does and cover his wife's sin with his own blood and defend her reputation even when she falls/is beguiled by the snare of satan?

2Co 11:3 But I fear lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, so your thoughts should be corrupted from the simplicity due to Christ.
Eve was beguiled but the man willingly sinned with his eyes wide open.

1Co 7:13 And the woman which hath a husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1Co 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Even when the husband is not subject to God she can remain with him if does not stop her from serving the Lord.

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
This is true and I believe wholeheartedly. Women are not to be under subjection to every male that is in the church, but to their husband only!

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.
I agree with this scripture that a man can cover and save his wife or he can make her a public display to be ridiculed and shamed.

Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
The word of God is forever settled in heaven.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
This bears repeating since I have said it numerous times...There are few women who would not submit to a man who loved them enough to die for them or to cover her sins and failures. It is not those men that women have to worry about, but men who want to prove they are in charge, that they are better than, that abuse women physically, emotionally, sexually, and spiritually as it pleases them.


Comments on these verses any body. It is not about Machismo and subjecting a woman or wife wrongly but the way in which God has ordained for us to treat the weaker vessel as Christ loved the church. He gave himself for it. He did not put it down but raised it up. He did not condemn it he edified it. He wants to present to himself without spot or blemish
It is obvious from the wording used as to who you are, but I will say...those men who do not work and support their wife and children, who treat them as possessions, and support isolation from family members who love and would give their last breath for them, are only a facade replic of what God intended men to be.

Blessings, Rhoni

[1Corinth2v4]

Just one technicality..."helpmeet" is not one word. The term is actually a PHRASE: "help, meet for him." "Meet" is a word that stands alone and means counterpart or mate. Or, "part opposite" (opposite part). She was created as a help[ful] counterpart or mate.

I think the problem is that saying a woman (or even a child) is "beneath" you seems to place less value on the woman or child, so it sounds insulting to phrase it that way. My children are not beneath me, and for that matter, the bulk of the responsibility is upon me to care for them, and less so for them to submit to my authority.

Of course, I'm not saying that they shouldn't submit to my authority as their mother--of course they should. But I have a great obligation to them than they have to me.

Also, the relationship between parent and child is in no way comparable to that between a man and his wife. A man is to sacrifice for his wife, give himself for her, to prefer her, to live with her as the weaker vessel. That means you handle her gingerly and carefully, and wisely, because she is the weaker vessel. Unfortunately, some men think this means they shove the weaker vessel out of the way.

A woman is definitely to submit to her husband, but he does not have the right force or demand submission. It has to be freely given, or it isn't submission, and he is no longer like Christ.

As for before the fall...why was there no instruction to Adam to rule over his wife, or to the wife to submit to her husband prior to the fall? Those seemed to be results of sin, NOT the original intent of the creator. Counterpart seems to imply the second piece of a two-part puzzle. Equal, but different. I doubt either of them had authority over the other. The man NEEDED the woman, and woman was created FOR the man.

The scriptures that refer to a woman being created for the man simply highlight that need, in my opinion, and do not point to any real pre-fall authority on Adam's part.

MissBrattified,


This is a man talking to you. Get off the computer and go bake me some brownies, I command you! :tease

[MissBrattified]

Brother I am sooo impressed that you understand that Adam was not deceived.. he willingly sinned therefore taking his brides sin upon him as Christ did WILLINGLY that she might live IN HIM......

You believe Adam sinned out of his love for Eve? I thought it was his disobedience to God (e.g., rebellion) that caused him to do so?

So his sin was actually a magnanimous act?

[Rhoni]

While I am not defending your views, I will say that Rhoni can be a bit feminist and anti male at times in her postings. She will deny it, but it does happen. Kinda the way what you're saying sounds a bit anti female, even though you see it as standing up for the Word of God.

Rico,

Thank you for putting it out there as it is. I sometimes react out of my past experience and although I know not all men are jerks and misinterpret scriptures to fit their theology, some do...and I could :club where is felicity's spit smilie when you need it?

Blessings, Rhoni

[MissBrattified]

MissBrattified,


This is a man talking to you. Get off the computer and go bake me some brownies, I command you! :tease

They will be very stale, and possibly moldy, by the time you get them. :whistle

[Rhoni]

You believe Adam sinned out of his love for Eve? I thought it was his disobedience to God (e.g., rebellion) that caused him to do so?

So his sin was actually a magnanimous act?

:tease He loved Eve so much he blamed all his sin on her...he forgot to read Corinthians before speaking to God.

:tease

[MissBrattified]

:tease He loved Eve so much he blamed all his sin on her...he forgot to read Corinthians before speaking to God.

:tease

Right. LOL!!! Nice job taking the fall (literally), by blaming it all on his wife when God called him on the green garden carpet!

[Cindy]

Just one technicality..."helpmeet" is not one word. The term is actually a PHRASE: "help, meet for him." "Meet" is a word that stands alone and means counterpart or mate. Or, "part opposite" (opposite part). She was created as a help[ful] counterpart or mate.

I think the problem is that saying a woman (or even a child) is "beneath" you seems to place less value on the woman or child, so it sounds insulting to phrase it that way. My children are not beneath me. (In the negative sense of the term.) They are temporarily in my care, and therefore under my authority, but only as a means to an end, which is to nurture them and train them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Also, the relationship between parent and child is in no way comparable to that between a man and his wife. A man is to sacrifice for his wife, give himself for her, to prefer her, to live with her as the weaker vessel. That means you handle her gingerly and carefully, and wisely, because she is the weaker vessel. Unfortunately, some men think this means they shove the weaker vessel out of the way.

A woman is definitely to submit to her husband, but he does not have the right force or demand submission. It has to be freely given, or it isn't submission, and he is no longer like Christ when he uses his authority in a demanding or forceful way.

As for before the fall...why was there no instruction to Adam to rule over his wife, or to the wife to submit to her husband prior to the fall? Those seemed to be results of sin, NOT the original intent of the creator. Counterpart seems to imply the second piece of a two-part puzzle. Equal, but different. I doubt either of them had authority over the other. The man NEEDED the woman, and woman was created FOR the man. The idea that God created men and women for different reasons does not imply that they were not originally equal. Did both of them have equal dominion or authority over the earth?

The scriptures that refer to a woman being created for the man simply highlight that need, in my opinion, and do not point to any real pre-fall authority on Adam's part.

Thank you MissB. Amen!!!

[Rhoni]

:shockamoo:shockamooRight. LOL!!! Nice job taking the fall (literally), by blaming it all on his wife when God called him on the green garden carpet!

[Rhoni]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/forum/NewBlueDefault/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=546559#post546559)
Just one technicality..."helpmeet" is not one word. The term is actually a PHRASE: "help, meet for him." "Meet" is a word that stands alone and means counterpart or mate. Or, "part opposite" (opposite part). She was created as a help[ful] counterpart or mate.

I think the problem is that saying a woman (or even a child) is "beneath" you seems to place less value on the woman or child, so it sounds insulting to phrase it that way. My children are not beneath me. (In the negative sense of the term.) They are temporarily in my care, and therefore under my authority, but only as a means to an end, which is to nurture them and train them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Also, the relationship between parent and child is in no way comparable to that between a man and his wife. A man is to sacrifice for his wife, give himself for her, to prefer her, to live with her as the weaker vessel. That means you handle her gingerly and carefully, and wisely, because she is the weaker vessel. Unfortunately, some men think this means they shove the weaker vessel out of the way.

A woman is definitely to submit to her husband, but he does not have the right force or demand submission. It has to be freely given, or it isn't submission, and he is no longer like Christ when he uses his authority in a demanding or forceful way.

As for before the fall...why was there no instruction to Adam to rule over his wife, or to the wife to submit to her husband prior to the fall? Those seemed to be results of sin, NOT the original intent of the creator. Counterpart seems to imply the second piece of a two-part puzzle. Equal, but different. I doubt either of them had authority over the other. The man NEEDED the woman, and woman was created FOR the man. The idea that God created men and women for different reasons does not imply that they were not originally equal. Did both of them have equal dominion or authority over the earth?

The scriptures that refer to a woman being created for the man simply highlight that need, in my opinion, and do not point to any real pre-fall authority on Adam's part.


Great post Miss B.!

Blessings, Rhoni

[Nahum]

As for before the fall...why was there no instruction to Adam to rule over his wife, or to the wife to submit to her husband prior to the fall? Those seemed to be results of sin, NOT the original intent of the creator. Counterpart seems to imply the second piece of a two-part puzzle. Equal, but different. I doubt either of them had authority over the other. The man NEEDED the woman, and woman was created FOR the man. The idea that God created men and women for different reasons does not imply that they were not originally equal. Did both of them have equal dominion or authority over the earth?

The scriptures that refer to a woman being created for the man simply highlight that need, in my opinion, and do not point to any real pre-fall authority on Adam's part.

I disagree.

[Rhoni]

I disagree.

I disagree with you:whistle

[MissBrattified]

I disagree.

Where did God address any authority in the beginning, other than providing Adam with his counterpart? I don't see any lineup of authority--or even of different roles and responsibilities, until after the fall. Did Adam have to provide for his wife before the fall? Or was working to provide for his family (by the sweat of his brow) part of the curse?

[Nahum]

God specifically communicated many things to Adam that he did not mention to Eve. It seems as though God dialogued with Eve through Adam.

After the fall, God called to Adam, but not Eve (Genesis 3:9). It seems as though there was an understanding between the three of them that Adam was responsible for Eve. In other words he had authority over the woman.

He was responsible for the fall, not Eve. Eve drove a wedge between Adam and God, but Adam was gullible enough to fall for it. He chose the voice of his wife over the commandments of God.

Peruse Genesis chapter three and you will see this theme. The emphasis is on Adam's relationship with God becoming severed because of listening to another voice.

[MissBrattified]

Look, even if there was NO authority in the beginning, I have no desire to disseminate with the roles God doled out after the fall. Obviously I believe a man should provide for his household, and likewise I believe a woman should submit to her husband's authority.

The argument I have heard is that since there was no authority in the beginning, then an "ideal" home will have equal partners, e.g., equal authority. I believe God has set up the home to deal with our now sinful nature, and the home will remain harmonious as long as we follow His plan. If we were sinless, then equal authority would be a moot point, since no one would be vying for authority (pride), or deliberately flouting the authority of another (rebellion), but rather both parties would be serving the other in love and humility.

[Evang.Benincasa]

The issue of a woman being subject to her husband is a carnal issue pertaining to this life here on Earth. From a spiritual standpoint, there is no difference between a man and a woman.

That's in salvation. In salvation there is no difference, women are told to submit to their OWN husband. No where do we read about men submitting to their own wife. It was a patriarchal society and it would of been unbelievable to those who were in a patriarchal society to accept that women were equal to men. Also the weaker vessel is speaking of the woman, men are to take their position and take care of their wives and children. Men were counted first because they were the ones who went to war.

Electric start bikes are no fun. :tease

[Nahum]

Where did God address any authority in the beginning, other than providing Adam with his counterpart? I don't see any lineup of authority--or even of different roles and responsibilities, until after the fall. Did Adam have to provide for his wife before the fall? Or was working to provide for his family (by the sweat of his brow) part of the curse?

God specifically communicated many things to Adam that he did not mention to Eve. It seems as though God dialogued with Eve through Adam.

After the fall, God called to Adam, but not Eve (Genesis 3:9). It seems as though there was an understanding between the three of them that Adam was responsible for Eve. In other words he had authority over the woman.

He was responsible for the fall, not Eve. Eve drove a wedge between Adam and God, but Adam was gullible enough to fall for it. He chose the voice of his wife over the commandments of God.

Peruse Genesis chapter three and you will see this theme. The emphasis is on Adam's relationship with God becoming severed because of listening to another voice.

Where, before the fall, do we have any record of God communicating with the woman (she did not even have a name until after the fall)? All communication between God and mankind was through Adam (the man).

[MissBrattified]

God specifically communicated many things to Adam that he did not mention to Eve. It seems as though God dialogued with Eve through Adam.

After the fall, God called to Adam, but not Eve (Genesis 3:9). It seems as though there was an understanding between the three of them that Adam was responsible for Eve. In other words he had authority over the woman.

He was responsible for the fall, not Eve. Eve drove a wedge between Adam and God, but Adam was gullible enough to fall for it. He chose the voice of his wife over the commandments of God.

Peruse Genesis chapter three and you will see this theme. The emphasis is on Adam's relationship with God becoming severed because of listening to another voice.

I agree with this...in that Adam had authority over Eve, because he was responsible for [her]. However, I do not think that authority was the same as we interpret it today, whereas Eve would have been required to obey her husband or submit to him in everything.

If sinless children were born to a sinless couple, the parents would be responsible to care for the children, thus having authority over them, but if there were no sin, would the children disobey them, requiring any real acting on that authority?

[MissBrattified]

Where, before the fall, do we have any record of God communicating with the woman (she did not even have a name until after the fall)? All communication between God and mankind was through Adam (the man).

Hmmm. Well, He spoke to both of them at the same time.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

They both heard His voice in the garden, and they both hid from His presence:

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

[Nahum]

Look, even if there was NO authority in the beginning, I have no desire to disseminate with the roles God doled out after the fall. Obviously I believe a man should provide for his household, and likewise I believe a woman should submit to her husband's authority.

The argument I have heard is that since there was no authority in the beginning, then an "ideal" home will have equal partners, e.g., equal authority. I believe God has set up the home to deal with our now sinful nature, and the home will remain harmonious as long as we follow His plan. If we were sinless, then equal authority would be a moot point, since no one would be vying for authority (pride), or deliberately flouting the authority of another (rebellion), but rather both parties would be serving the other in love and humility.

Again, I kindly disagree.

God's Divine order existed pre-fall.

Look through Genesis 2 and 3. After God brings the woman from out of Adam (she is a part of him), he then brings her to him. Adam later says (Gen 3:12) "the woman who thou gavest to be with me."

I am not saying God presented Eve as a mere servant object. I am saying she was given to accompany the man, to be by his side. She was to be his constant comfort and companion.

Adam's role as a nurturer and caretaker is evident in the story of The Fall.

He takes the heat for sin. I believe the three curses handed out were mere extensions of pre-existent male/female roles.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Hmmm. Well, He spoke to both of them at the same time.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

They both heard His voice in the garden, and they both hid from His presence:

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

No Miss Brattfield,.,, ,read again,.. Eve was not even created at this point.. she was not created until the next chapter.. Here God is speaking to BOTH because BOTH were IN ADAM... the same way he speaks to the BRIDE and CHRIST when he speaks to Christ

[U376977]

They are absolutely not co-equal..... I have rule over my children and they are not equal with me,, they are children.. they have been placed under my subjection

I love how we say man and woman are equal when GOD HIMSELF calls her the WEAKER VESSELL.. if we are equal then we are equal in all.......its a travesty to the plan of God to make equal what God has made unequal

I work for a company.. there is a man in that company who is NOT MY EQUAL>> WHY? He has the power over me... he has the power and the authority to make my life peaceful or make it a living hell... I am NOT equal to him. Imagine that.... I am an UNDERLING to this man.. WHY? GOD TOLD ME "slaves obey your masters"

I ask you did Paul consider the slave (employee) equal to his master (employer)

A man is not equal to Christ.. why? Because the head of every man is Christ....

Question.. is the foot equal to the head? Of course not, without the head the entire body cannot function.. without the foot the body can still function,, are they both important? Absolutely....... Do they compliment one another? Absolutely but the foot will never be equal to the head....

When you have a HEAD such as man has a HEAD,, which is CHRIST.. he is not now nor will he ever be EQUAL to CHRIST...... the same applies with man and woman.. she has a HEAD... how can she ever be equal to her head?

That would be like saying children are EQUAL with their parents..... how can they be when the parents are the HEAD of the children?

I thought there was an "as unto" in front of weaker vessel?

[Nahum]

I agree with this...in that Adam had authority over Eve, because he was responsible for [her]. However, I do not think that authority was the same as we interpret it today, whereas Eve would have been required to obey her husband or submit to him in everything.

If sinless children were born to a sinless couple, the parents would be responsible to care for the children, thus having authority over them, but if there were no sin, would the children disobey them, requiring any real acting on that authority?

I agree with most everything you've said in this post. My only point was that the male/female husband/wife roles existed before The Fall.

The only thing I will add is that, in a perfect world, the woman's eyes were not opened to good and evil. Lust was not present. Rebeliion was unheard of. She submitted to the man because she did not know any other way of life. The man took care of her because it was all he knew.

How many eons did they exist in this condition before The Fall?

[MissBrattified]

I agree with most everything you've said in this post. My only point was that the male/female husband/wife roles existed before The Fall.

I think I agree with that, just without the sin, angst, pain and suffering.

The only thing I will add is that, in a perfect world, the woman's eyes were not opened to good and evil. Lust was not present. Rebeliion was unheard of. She submitted to the man because she did not know any other way of life. The man took care of her because it was all he knew.

How many eons did they exist in this condition before The Fall?

I wonder if Eve had children prior to the fall? Scripture doesn't record it, but how else could they follow the commandment to multiply? And, since part of her curse was pain in childbirth, was it previously painless? And if she hadn't had children previously, then what would even be her reference point when God said "childbirth is going to hurt"?

By that same token, though, I'd have to assume that Adam had some point of reference regarding providing for his wife, just without the labor and sweat?

[Nahum]

Hmmm. Well, He spoke to both of them at the same time.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

They both heard His voice in the garden, and they both hid from His presence:

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

No, he never addresses her individually or separately, until after The Fall.

[Nahum]

I think I agree with that, just without the sin, angst, pain and suffering.



I wonder if Eve had children prior to the fall? Scripture doesn't record it, but how else could they follow the commandment to multiply? And, since part of her curse was pain in childbirth, was it previously painless? And if she hadn't had children previously, then what would even be her reference point when God said "childbirth is going to hurt"?

By that same token, though, I'd have to assume that Adam had some point of reference regarding providing for his wife, just without the labor and sweat?

I have the same questions, but I've found that reading between the lines can be dangerous.

To me, the greatest mystery of all time is between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

[MissBrattified]

I have the same questions, but I've found that reading between the lines can be dangerous.

On that point I completely agree.

To me, the greatest mystery of all time is between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

And what is that?

[Dr. Vaughn]

On that point I completely agree.



And what is that?

Mrs. Brattfield.. you tried to say that God spoke to them both before the fall and you cited the scriptures about him speaking to THEM.. but their was not them at that time.. Eve was not created until the next chapter... she was INSIDE of ADAM when he spoke to them... to speak to Adam was automatically speaking to her because God has always recognized the woman through the man

[mizpeh]

I agree with most everything you've said in this post. My only point was that the male/female husband/wife roles existed before The Fall.

The only thing I will add is that, in a perfect world, the woman's eyes were not opened to good and evil. Lust was not present. Rebeliion was unheard of. She submitted to the man because she did not know any other way of life. The man took care of her because it was all he knew.

How many eons did they exist in this condition before The Fall?

Do you really think eons of time passed after God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply? :whistle

[MissBrattified]

Mrs. Brattfield.. you tried to say that God spoke to them both before the fall and you cited the scriptures about him speaking to THEM.. but their was not them at that time.. Eve was not created until the next chapter... she was INSIDE of ADAM when he spoke to them... to speak to Adam was automatically speaking to her because God has always recognized the woman through the man

I read your first post, Dr. V. :D

I don't agree with you, because I believe chapter 2 is basically a recap of chapter 1, with a few extra details thrown in.

How could Adam be fruitful and multiply by himself?

[Nahum]

On that point I completely agree.



And what is that?


It's called "the gap theory."

That somewhere between the creation of the earth and Genesis 1:2 - when it is listed without form, and void, and dark - there could have been multiple creations and eradications of those creations.

That God is so cyclical that every so often he detroys and creates. That He is continually redeeming civilizations.

This would explain dinosaurs, ufo's and a whole lot of other stuff.

I am not saying I believe the gap theory. Just that I find the entire discussion and theory interesting.

[Nahum]

Do you really think eons of time passed after God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply? :whistle


I think it's possible, but who can know?

We are not given any timelines.

When did time begin? At creation? After The Fall?

I tend to believe the latter.

[Nahum]

It's called "the gap theory."

That somewhere between the creation of the earth and Genesis 1:2 - when it is listed without form, and void, and dark - there could have been multiple creations and eradications of those creations.

That God is so cyclical that every so often he detroys and creates. That He is continually redeeming civilizations.

This would explain dinasours, ufo's and a whole lot of other stuff.

I am not saying I believe the gap theory. Just that I find the entire discussion and theory interesting.

Some believe that Satan's fall to the earth is what caused it to be without form and void. Void is such an interesting word. Doesn't it imply that something was, and is not?

Also, gap theorists point to the scriptures in Revelation regarding a new Heaven and new Earth as evidence of cyclical creations. Very few people believe there will actually be a new (as in never existed) Earth. Rather that there will be a restored earth.

[MissBrattified]

All very intriguing.

I suppose anything is possible, with infinite time (oxymoron alert), power and creativity on One's hands.

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Brother,, our churces need this kind of teaching.. I love the teaching about the veil

Thank You

My convictions are based on the Word of God

I stand by the post I have on 1 Cor. 11

I am always open to the Spirit guiding me into deeper truth.

Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

The words greatly multiply denote that there was a previous time when it was not so painful and difficult.

The day/age theory exists for the Hebrew word Yom It is used in most places
to speak of a literal day, which was the customary rendering until the early nineteenth century. This is when the Bible was challenged by science that the world was thousands of years old rather than the biblical six thousand year history. Darwinism The earth suddenly became millions of years old then proceeded to become billions now approx 4.5 B

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

How can you have generations of heavens and earth?

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

There are a lot of things to consider like if yom was a time period then how long an age did the plants exist before there was a sun? The sun and moon were made on the forth day plants on the third. Millions of years?

Speaking prophetically to king of Tyrus and symbolically to lucifer/satan he says in the yom/day you were created, was he created in a time period. He was in the garden of God "Eden". Was he originally always in a sinful state in the garden or was he perfect while still in the garden?

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Young earthers believe that even satan was created during the six day creation and that he was in the garden of Eden to minister to man and could ascend and descend from heaven to earth. Sometime during the time of innocence pride got in his way and he was cast out of heaven. It was after this that he beguiled Eve to follow his pattern. His curse was between his seed and her seed. Her seed "it" (Jesus) would bruise his head but thou (satan) would bruise his heel. Singular. Jesus sufferings in particular and the deception in general of her seed to disobey God by his seed.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.


I am still studying this to decide which I believe is the most biblically accurate. My father believed in the extremely long period during the age of innocence while they were able to eat of the tree of life and time had no effect upon them until the fall.

[Pastor DTSalaz]

No matter what we think it has to agree with the Word of God.

His Word has no contradictions

Difficulties Yes, hard to understand when reading between the lines.

[Praxeas]

No Miss Brattfield,.,, ,read again,.. Eve was not even created at this point.. she was not created until the next chapter.. Here God is speaking to BOTH because BOTH were IN ADAM... the same way he speaks to the BRIDE and CHRIST when he speaks to Christ
where in Gen 1:26-28 does it say Eve was not created at this point? It says "male and female"....Do you believe this male and female were not referring to Adam and Eve or do you view Gen chapter 2 as the 6th day elaborated on?

[Praxeas]

Mrs. Brattfield.. you tried to say that God spoke to them both before the fall and you cited the scriptures about him speaking to THEM.. but their was not them at that time.. Eve was not created until the next chapter... she was INSIDE of ADAM when he spoke to them... to speak to Adam was automatically speaking to her because God has always recognized the woman through the man
Adam was not created until the next chapter also

Gen 2:7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Gen 2:21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh.
Gen 2:22 And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man.

[OneAccord]

"the woman has been placed BELOW the man"
"Are you below your boss?"
"the head tells the neck when to turn"
"...being in an inferior or at least subserviant position...."

Where does this notion that women are BELOW the man in God's order come from? To answer that question, we would have to take this posters other statements to know that he, in fact, believes the female of our species is "inferior and subserviant" to the male. They are, in fact, nothing more than employees. And, since it is their husbands (heads) that tells the neck (wives) when to turn, the female is incapable of making even the slightest decision for herself. This is way off base.

While I find no biblical reference for a woman being BELOW a man, I do agree that Paul teaches that woman are to submit to their husbands, but I find that this relates to the husbands responsibility for his household. The man is the head of the woman in that he is responsible for all the members of his family. 1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. Lets face it, while here in the 21st century, some may find the wording distateful, but women are, as Paul said "the weaker vessel". However, its important to see that term within its context: 1Pe 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with [them] according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered. Note the underlined part. Regarding women as mere employers and as inferior and subserviant, is NOT giving them honor. Honoring "the weaker vessel" means to be responsible to do for the wife the things she is physically unable to do for herself. Submitting to the husband has to do with submitting to his reponsibility and not necessarily to his every command as some men wish were the case.

Its been said that the woman was made for the man as a helpmeet. I agree completely. The woman was made for a man, though some men have come to believe they are "God's gift to women". Just as God saw that it was not good for Adam to be alone, and made him a wife, God has given us men an incredible gift in our wives. (I have had two, and both were incredible women). I will honestly state that I could not have made it without either one of them (even now, I am completely lost without my wife... just look at my checkbook!) They weren't inferior to me, and they weren't subserviant and certainly weren't regarded as my employees. They weren't below me, but beside me at every turn. We were, as Jesus said, ONE. Any decision needed, WE made. Any disagreement was settled by US. Any choices were SHARED choices.

The notion that "the head tells the neck when to turn" reveals to me a great lack of trust... that in order to keep order, the NECK (I hate the terminolgy) is not too be trusted- that she, like Eve is only out to destroy the HEAD and undermine his "authority". I know where this line of reasoning comes from and it isn't from the Word. It comes from the same source as the erroneous teaching of the Serpent Seed.

One final thought:
Adam was not deceived.. he willingly sinned therefore taking his brides sin upon him as Christ did WILLINGLY that she might live IN HIM......

This seems to imply that the man (Adam) is absolved of any guilt in the Fall. In this line of erroneous reasoning, the head (man) yields to the neck (woman) and, yet, is found uncondemned for his action. Adam did try to blame the woman, but, while much has been said about Eve'e curse, we should remember that the male of the species was cursed as well. Both sinned, both were found guilty, and both fell- equally. Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Adam did willingly sin- but not in the sense as implied in the above quote. His sin was in doing as Eve did, in partaking of the Serpents Seed, which was not a sexual union between two natural species, but in believing the lie that they could modify God's Word to justify their own actions.

[Dr. Vaughn]

where in Gen 1:26-28 does it say Eve was not created at this point? It says "male and female"....Do you believe this male and female were not referring to Adam and Eve or do you view Gen chapter 2 as the 6th day elaborated on?

Male and Female were BOTH in ADAM.. X & Y were in ADAM alone... the feminino was removed from ADAM but in this scripture reading they were still ONE

[Dr. Vaughn]

Adam was not created until the next chapter also

Gen 2:7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Gen 2:21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh.
Gen 2:22 And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man.

We know ADAM was in the 1st chapter because we have the conversation between him and God.. you never have a conversation with God and Eve until after the fall

[Dr. Vaughn]

which was not a sexual union between two natural species, but in believing the lie that they could modify God's Word to justify their own actions.

GOD HELP EVERY ONE OF US who might have justified our actions in the past........ if God will destroy an entire race of people because of this we are all doomed.. I fail him everyday and he has never came down with such anger.....

What kind of Parent would CURSE their children for disobedience..... they would perhaps correct them.. but CURSE THEIR ENTIRE LINEAGE?

Oh Brother.. something happened in that womb that GOD HATED.... HIS ENTIRE FOCUS WAS ON HER REPRODUCTION SYSTEM in the curse...... and you tell me it was because she just ate an apple..... believe as you will

[Cindy]

which was not a sexual union between two natural species, but in believing the lie that they could modify God's Word to justify their own actions.

GOD HELP EVERY ONE OF US who might have justified our actions in the past........ if God will destroy an entire race of people because of this we are all doomed.. I fail him everyday and he has never came down with such anger.....

What kind of Parent would CURSE their children for disobedience..... they would perhaps correct them.. but CURSE THEIR ENTIRE LINEAGE?

Oh Brother.. something happened in that womb that GOD HATED.... HIS ENTIRE FOCUS WAS ON HER REPRODUCTION SYSTEM in the curse...... and you tell me it was because she just ate an apple..... believe as you will

It happened because she disobeyed, DV. Not because she ate anything.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Submitting to the husband has to do with submitting to his reponsibility and not necessarily to his every command as some men wish were the case.


It's amazing how desperate people are to change the clear meaning of a word........

In the original Paul did not use the word submit.. he used the word Hypostasso... which clearly means the following:
1) to arrange under, to subordinate

2) to subject, put in subjection

3) to subject one's self, obey

4) to submit to one's control

5) to yield to one's admonition or advice

6) to obey, be subject

So you folks believe OneAccords watered down version of SUBMIT.. the 21st century politically correct version... or you accept the WORD OF GOD

[Rico]

which was not a sexual union between two natural species, but in believing the lie that they could modify God's Word to justify their own actions.

GOD HELP EVERY ONE OF US who might have justified our actions in the past........ if God will destroy an entire race of people because of this we are all doomed.. I fail him everyday and he has never came down with such anger.....

What kind of Parent would CURSE their children for disobedience..... they would perhaps correct them.. but CURSE THEIR ENTIRE LINEAGE?

Oh Brother.. something happened in that womb that GOD HATED.... HIS ENTIRE FOCUS WAS ON HER REPRODUCTION SYSTEM in the curse...... and you tell me it was because she just ate an apple..... believe as you will

Is this part of your SS belief? More reading betwween the lines? There are a lot of things God used to do that He doesn't do any more.

[Dr. Vaughn]

It happened because she disobeyed, DV. Not because she ate anything.

Have you ever disobeyed? Did your loving Father curse your entire bloodline because of it?

Why not? Thought he was no repsector of person.. why the ANGER to EVE? All she did was disobey......

Have you ever noticed you were naked when you disobeyed?

[Dr. Vaughn]

Is this part of your SS belief? More reading betwween the lines? There are a lot of things God used to do that He doesn't do any more.

We are talking the same God arn't we? The one who NEVER CHANGES, the same yesterday today and forever?

Or are we talking about a God that changes with the generations?

[Rico]

We are talking the same God arn't we? The one who NEVER CHANGES, the same yesterday today and forever?

Or are we talking about a God that changes with the generations?

Does God still order the destruction of entire nations, DV? Does He still tell His people to utterly destroy every man woman and child, like He used to do?

[Tim Rutledge]

(sigh)


Well, here's my first deleted post within an "unnamed forum." The following quote is a message I received from their admin:








So.........I guess I'll post it here!



We read within the New Testament that man is the head of women (1Corinth 11:3), basically women are under subjection to men.

But the question lies, were Adam and Eve coequal in authority before the fall of man?


Notice:

Genesis 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.



Also,


Genesis 2:20
And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.



Help Meet: Azar (aw-zar')
A primitive root; to surround, i.e. Protect or aid -- help, succour


There is no subjection between two creatures working in unison to complete a task (help meet).


So........


A portion of women's/Eve's curse was "thy husband shall rule over thee." My belief is Adam and Eve were coequal in authority before the fall of man.

If you disagree, and if subjection between a man and women was established prior to the fall of Adam/Eve, why did God announce subjection over Eve (women) as a curse for being disobedient?







:feedback

1Cor..
My question to your question is why does it matter..and if you did know the answer what would it help? Please pardon my directness. To me its a very contentious question with no benefits.

Maybe its just for the sake of discussion and fun??

[Dr. Vaughn]

It's a simple question... the begs an answer

WHO IS SATANS SEED?

Gen 3:15 - And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

We know who her LITERAL CHILD was........ Now who is his?

Bye the way.. you can't spiritualize one part of it and literlize the other part.. .its all in the same verse

Oh by the way.. the original word for seed in this verse is ZERA which means - semen virile

So Satan you will have a CHILD and she will have a CHILD........ who is his child?

John answers the question -
Not as Cain, [who] came out of that wicked one....

and who was THE WICKED ONE?
MAtt 13:38 - The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];

[Dr. Vaughn]

Does God still order the destruction of entire nations, DV? Does He still tell His people to utterly destroy every man woman and child, like He used to do?

God didn't tell anyone to do anything in EDEN.. he did it himself...

He created a man.. then gave him a wife... told them to be good little boys and girls... said they could eat of all the trees that they wanted to.. but he had two very special trees in the MIDST of the garden.. which were not tree for food, they were seperate trees... one of them gives Eternal Life (sounds like Jesus to me) and one of them gives evil knowledge ( never seen a natural tree with any knowledge) and they didnt need to partake of either of those trees

Uh Oh.... Eve eats an APPLE....... that girl is in trouble now... HERE COMES GOD and finds them trying to cover their nakedness.. tring to cover their LOINS their sexual organs.. all over an APPLE>......

Because she eats an APPLE GOD CURSED EVER child that would ever come through her womb and children's wombs.... said everytime you give birth.. your WOMB is going to remind you of what has happened here

Song of Solomon 4:16 -blow upon my garden, [that] the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits.

I bet folks think this is real fruit as well....

[Rico]

God didn't tell anyone to do anything in EDEN.. he did it himself...

He created a man.. then gave him a wife... told them to be good little boys and girls... said they could eat of all the trees that they wanted to.. but he had two very special trees in the MIDST of the garden.. which were not tree for food, they were seperate trees... one of them gives Eternal Life (sounds like Jesus to me) and one of them gives evil knowledge ( never seen a natural tree with any knowledge) and they didnt need to partake of either of those trees

Uh Oh.... Eve eats an APPLE....... that girl is in trouble now... HERE COMES GOD and finds them trying to cover their nakedness.. tring to cover their LOINS their sexual organs.. all over an APPLE>......

Because she eats an APPLE GOD CURSED EVER child that would ever come through her womb and children's wombs.... said everytime you give birth.. your WOMB is going to remind you of what has happened here

Song of Solomon 4:16 -blow upon my garden, [that] the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits.

I bet folks think this is real fruit as well....

She was cursed for disobeying Him, DV. Also, the Bible does not say she ate an apple. I noticed you conveniently dodged my question, but that's ok.

[Dr. Vaughn]

She was cursed for disobeying Him, DV. Also, the Bible does not say she ate an apple. I noticed you conveniently dodged my question, but that's ok.

Apple, Orange, Pear.... you guys believe it was a literal fruit that has cursed all of mankind

[Dr. Vaughn]

I guarantee you the majority of this board believe the FIG TREE in the NT was a literal tree as well.. rather than the nation of Israel.. just shows you how people are.. they cannot see beyond the allegory

[Cindy]

DV, so you think Eve was impregnated by a serpent, man, or spirit?

[Dr. Vaughn]

DV, so you think Eve was impregnated by a serpent, man, or spirit?

The Pentecostal church believes that the SONS OF GOD - fallen Angels slept with with women and Giants came forth... is what I'm saying any different than that?

[Rico]

Apple, Orange, Pear.... you guys believe it was a literal fruit that has cursed all of mankind

No, it was man's disobedience to God that has cursed all mankind. Your attitude really goes south when you get on this SS stuff, DV.

[Cindy]

The Pentecostal church believes that the SONS OF GOD - fallen Angels slept with with women and Giants came forth... is what I'm saying any different than that?

I am asking which you believe, not what the Pentecostal church believes. You have stated a few times that she was impregnated with Cain from someone besides Adam. So which was it? A man, spirit, or serpent?

[Dr. Vaughn]

No, it was man's disobedience to God that has cursed all mankind. Your attitude really goes south when you get on this SS stuff, DV.

RICO - my apologies if I come across that way... when you have entire groups of people coming against one man, perhaps it can put you on the defense.....

Rico how can we believe that because Eve ate an apple and yes was disobedient to her Father.... knowing the nature of God.. does the end justify the means? Would God have cursed her for such a small infraction? Not just her... but every child in her in species is now cursed.......

Why didn't he curse her mouth? Why her WOMB?

and again.. we talk about dodging questions... why can no one tell me who Satans Seed is? The literal child

[LUKE2447]

Though I don't agree with the SS Doctrine it does have it's possibility. People just don't want to think that way especially with today's all inclusive mentality. We start having to judge things and well "we can't do that, oh the horror" etc...

[Dr. Vaughn]

I am asking which you believe, not what the Pentecostal church believes. You have stated a few times that she was impregnated with Cain from someone besides Adam. So which was it? A man, spirit, or serpent?

Neither of the above... as this upright creature in the garden was nothing like a serpent in the beginning.. so to answer SERPENT puts the wrong image in peoples mind

[LUKE2447]

RICO - my apologies if I come across that way... when you have entire groups of people coming against one man, perhaps it can put you on the defense.....

Rico how can we believe that because Eve ate an apple and yes was disobedient to her Father.... knowing the nature of God.. does the end justify the means? Would God have cursed her for such a small infraction? Not just her... but every child in her in species is now cursed.......

Why didn't he curse her mouth? Why her WOMB?

and again.. we talk about dodging questions... why can no one tell me who Satans Seed is? The literal child

That is one point in which SS doctrine has a point of literal vs symbolic. Can't have both in the same text.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Though I don't agree with the SS Doctrine it does have it's possibility. People just don't want to think that way especially with today's all inclusive mentality. We start having to judge things and well "we can't do that, oh the horror" etc...

Luke it amazes me how people REFUSE to even think outside the sunday school lessons they were taught... I use to be one of those people.. when I heard this Revelation I was it's most ardent enemies.. fighting against it publically..... but eventually your Spirit begins to ask about Eden.. and you just can't make it make sense without understanding SS...

Why must Jesus be virgin born? Why a NEW BLOODLINE? Why a SON without the tainted blood? It all makes sense with the understanding of what happened to the bloodline in Eden

[Dr. Vaughn]

That is one point in which SS doctrine has a point of literal vs symbolic. Can't have both in the same text.

Satans Son Cain was determined to destroy the righteous seedline of God through Murder.....

Who was a murderer from the beginning? Satan..... like Father like Son

[LUKE2447]

Dr. Vaughn that is why I don't totaly dismiss it. It does make sense in several areas. Why would he not try to do that, it is in the realm of possibility. Though I don't subscribe to it, I won't just act like it is not possible.

[LUKE2447]

Dr. Vaughn wehn you get down to it. Why would the world try to fight the angels in heaven in Revelation?

[LUKE2447]

The reason.... They believe they can fight against what they see. Same with Satan and his lack of knowledge of God. He saw the Word of God, Angel of the Lord and thought he could rebel against that which he saw. HE did not understand the magnitude of God. The angels are above us spritually but have a physical presence. Makes you wonder about aliens and the Wheel within the wheel etc... How that relates to angels.

Gettinga little off topic... quietly leaves room.

[Dr. Vaughn]

The reason.... They believe they can fight against what they see. Same with Satan and his lack of knowledge of God. He saw the Word of God, Angel of the Lord and thought he could rebel against that which he saw. HE did not understand the magnitude of God. The angels are above us spritually but have a physical presence. Makes you wonder about aliens and the Wheel within the wheel etc... How that relates to angels.

Gettinga little off topic... quietly leaves room.

Oooh brother,, now your talking my language.... to try and get Gods children to go deeper than the surface is like pulling teeth

[Rico]

I had a feeling this thread would eventually go in the SS direction.

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Way off what this thread is about but here is my understanding

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

The angels do not have the power to procreate

Satan seed are those who follow after him in disobedience as the fallen angels who listened to him.

All of Adams seed and future generations were within the loins of Adam. God told Adam to be fruitful and multiply. We never hear of that with angels.

We know that Job speaks of sons of God as angels but only in that context. Man is also called the sons of God. The ohter line of thinking is these were the Godly lineage through Seth although even in part his lineage also began to be corrupt with the wickedness that was in the world.

The curse was for disobedience. Gods justice demands perfect righteousness if not we do not meet the mark. Thus all our descendants are affected angels do not have descendents. They do not marry or procreate. Jesus could not have earthly father for the sin of the father is inheireted from him.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


Running to service no time to elaborate.

Blessed services on this day of the Lord

[Dr. Vaughn]

I had a feeling this thread would eventually go in the SS direction.

I responded to the SS question by One Accord...

[Dr. Vaughn]

Way off what this thread is about but here is my understanding

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

The angels do not have the power to procreate

Satan seed are those who follow after him in disobedience as the fallen angels who listened to him.

All of Adams seed and future generations were within the loins of Adam. God told Adam to be fruitful and multiply. We never hear of that with angels.

We know that Job speaks of sons of God as angels but only in that context. Man is also called the sons of God. The ohter line of thinking is these were the Godly lineage through Seth although even in part his lineage also began to be corrupt with the wickedness that was in the world.

The curse was for disobedience. Gods justice demands perfect righteousness if not we do not meet the mark. Thus all our descendants are affected angels do not have descendents. They do not marry or procreate. Jesus could not have earthly father for the sin of the father is inheireted from him.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


Running to service no time to elaborate.

Blessed services on this day of the Lord

Satan seed are those who follow after him

Dear Pastor... you cannot spiritualize one and not the other... do you now believe "THE WOMAN SEED" are those that follow after Christ? No, we know better it was a literal child.. the holy Child Jesus.... a physical child... Satan had to have the same... and he did in CAIN, the descendants of Cain were evil people.... with NIMROD building the tower of babel.....

[Rico]

I responded to the SS question by One Accord...

Not assigning blame, DV. The SS thing and Branham is going to follow you around here.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Not assigning blame, DV. The SS thing and Branham is going to follow you around here.

So it seems brother

[Rico]

So it seems brother

Yup. You is a marked man 'round these parts. I guess we all are, in one way or another. Except for me, of course. I'm a free agent, not bound by any one group's beliefs. :D

[OneAccord]

I responded to the SS question by One Accord...

I asked no questions regarding SS. What I did say was that this belief that women are inferior and in a place of subverviancy to men comes from the same place the Serpent Seed doctrine.

[Dr. Vaughn]

I asked no questions regarding SS. What I did say was that this belief that women are inferior and in a place of subverviancy to men comes from the same place the Serpent Seed doctrine.

and thus the discussion of SS began.... the point remains.. its always the case.. I have NEVER ONE TIME began a discussion on SS

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Satan seed are those who follow after him

Dear Pastor... you cannot spiritualize one and not the other... do you now believe "THE WOMAN SEED" are those that follow after Christ? No, we know better it was a literal child.. the holy Child Jesus.... a physical child... Satan had to have the same... and he did in CAIN, the descendants of Cain were evil people.... with NIMROD building the tower of babel.....


The womans seed are all the descendants that come through her. She is called Eve the mother of all living. I am not spiritualizing either they are both seed but can you show me one instance where there is proof for a child of an angel. They both come from the womb but the Bible says that Cain was Adams descendant.

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.


BTW Nimrod was a descendant of SETH Through Noah and his sons Shem, Ham & Japeth. There is no possible way that angels can procreate without proof in the Word of God. Angels have spiritual bodies but we have both spiritual and physical bodies. We were made and commanded to be fruitful and multiply.

Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

The seed is all her seed that would come from her womb. Satan nor the woman knew which one IT would be. There would be one that would bruise his head but THOU (Satan) shall bruise his heel. Satan is the cause for mankind to fall but Jesus would be the one to break the curse. Who is the seed of the woman, Jesus Satan did not which one it would be but he and all the fallen angels recognized him right away when he was on the earth. Did satan procreate in order for all the demons or third part of the stars of heaven to be called HIS.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[Praxeas]

Satan seed are those who follow after him
.....
If Satan's "seed" are those that follow Satan then what is the point in having a Serpent Seed doctrine that rests on the idea that a beast of the field had sex with a human?

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God actually say, 'You shall not eat of any tree in the garden'?"

I don't buy it for several reasons however, not to mention of which the bible just does not say the serpent "knew" eve and according to Biology the serpent not only had to be a mammal but a mammal of the same species.

[TCSQ]

(sigh)


Well, here's my first deleted post within an "unnamed forum." The following quote is a message I received from their admin:








So.........I guess I'll post it here!



We read within the New Testament that man is the head of women (1Corinth 11:3), basically women are under subjection to men.

But the question lies, were Adam and Eve coequal in authority before the fall of man?


Notice:

Genesis 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.



Also,


Genesis 2:20
And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.



Help Meet: Azar (aw-zar')
A primitive root; to surround, i.e. Protect or aid -- help, succour


There is no subjection between two creatures working in unison to complete a task (help meet).


So........


A portion of women's/Eve's curse was "thy husband shall rule over thee." My belief is Adam and Eve were coequal in authority before the fall of man.

If you disagree, and if subjection between a man and women was established prior to the fall of Adam/Eve, why did God announce subjection over Eve (women) as a curse for being disobedient?







:feedback


I agree one hundred percent. In fact Eve was NOT originally named Eve!!!!!

Any guesses on what her name was BEFORE the fall??? Huh??? Anyone? Anyone??

[Sister Alvear]

Most had rather not know...

[Rhoni]

Tee Hee....Her name was Jezebel, right?

[Sister Alvear]

Tee Hee....Her name was Jezebel, right?

scripture for that one.... ha...love you Rhoni...:friend

[Rhoni]

scripture for that one.... ha...love you Rhoni...:friend

:tease I was teasing...far as I know she was called woman!

Love you too, Rhoni

[Sister Alvear]

yeah, I knew you were...blessings...

[Dr. Vaughn]

Her name was ADAM before the fall

[Sister Alvear]

we know...
blessings to you. Are you back from the funeral?

[Praxeas]

Her name was ADAM before the fall
Her name was woman. By creation what she was was an adam (mankind)

[OneAccord]

With only two people in the Garden, why would they need names. Adam says, "Hey, woman"... its a given he is talking to his wife. Who else would he be talking to?

[Praxeas]

With only two people in the Garden, why would they need names. Adam says, "Hey, woman"... its a given he is talking to his wife. Who else would he be talking to?
Actually he did call her woman. Adam is the same word translated man in the first few chapters of Genesis.

Adam was the man's personal name but Adam was also synonymous with "mankind"

See God created "man", male and female he created them...God created adam (man) and created them male and female, which is also why Gen 2 is seen by the more intelligent (haha) as simply the 6th day looked at closer