Televangelist's Family Prosper's From Ministry

[Cindy]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25865017/

[Ron]

Yea, Money Cometh!

[CC1]

Of course this kind of nepotism never happens on old time Oneness Pentecost!

[crakjak]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25865017/

The salaries and monies paid are not at all out of line with the size of the organization or compensation paid to executives of a comparable size corporation. Matter of fact, they are very conservation in comparison.

[Brother Price]

The salaries and monies paid are not at all out of line with the size of the organization or compensation paid to executives of a comparable size corporation. Matter of fact, they are very conservation in comparison.
But, the Church is not a corporation. It is the church, period. All that money is wasted!

[crakjak]

But, the Church is not a corporation. It is the church, period. All that money is wasted!

Brother, it takes money to do the work of the kingdom, the Copeland's raise more money in a year than most churches do in a lifetime. They invest in what they believe is the work of the kingdom. I am not particularly a fan of the Copeland's, but the idea that a para-church organization should not generate enormous amounts of money and pay the leaders well is ridiculous.

[Jason B]

I live in Boyd, about 10 miles from this compound. It is ridiculous, they have armed gaurds on church property at all times.

I have a man who works for me who attends that church, (he moved from Virginia just to attend the Copeland church). I asked him about the armed gaurds, he said that when they take up the offering, they also have armed gaurds who escort the ushers.

This same man also lived in someoneone's back yard for 6 months while all of his tithe and offering went to people living the high life. Did they help him? Oh yeah, they rented him and his family a motel room for 2 weeks, but that was it.

Amazingly, He still goes there, and believes that those people are the most righteous of all christians.

[TRFrance]

Brother, it takes money to do the work of the kingdom, the Copeland's raise more money in a year than most churches do in a lifetime. They invest in what they believe is the work of the kingdom. I am not particularly a fan of the Copeland's, but the idea that a para-church organization should not generate enormous amounts of money and pay the leaders well is ridiculous.
"Pay the leaders well"? I think that the idea that church leaders are entitled to be paid well is ridiculous.

Pay the leaders fairly, yes. But where does it say church/ministry leaders must be paid well?

Jesus wasn't paid well, neither was Paul, or any of the other apostles, as far as we know.

[Jason B]

Brother, it takes money to do the work of the kingdom, the Copeland's raise more money in a year than most churches do in a lifetime. They invest in what they believe is the work of the kingdom. I am not particularly a fan of the Copeland's, but the idea that a para-church organization should not generate enormous amounts of money and pay the leaders well is ridiculous.

Ridiculous is living in a 6 million dollar home, and living a life of luxury, while the people under you are hurting. Ridiculous is having the ability to do so much more for others, but instead you live the easy life. Give me a break, Copeland needs to re-read Jeremiah.

[crakjak]

Ridiculous is living in a 6 million dollar home, and living a life of luxury, while the people under you are hurting. Ridiculous is having the ability to do so much more for others, but instead you live the easy life. Give me a break, Copeland needs to re-read Jeremiah.

Okay, I said I am not a fan!

[CC1]

I wonder if there is a single major national ministry that takes in millions where the leaders have not succumbed to the lure of the money in the sense that they justify a huge income and lifestyle based on comparing the offering totals to a secular corporate entity's income.

It would be nice to see one of these outfits have leaders who settle for just a very nice house and upper middle class lifestyle vs mansions, jets, etc.

I rememer reading where Richard Roberts used the ministries jet for his daughter to take her girlfriends on a graduation trip or something like that to the Bahammas or somewhere.

I don't begrudge a minister a decent lifestyle but living extravagently off of offerings people give for God's work is ridiculous no matter what Sandra and the prosperity preachers say.

[Mrs. LPW]

"His ministry's 1,500-acre campus outside Fort Worth is testament to his success. It includes a church, private airstrip, a hangar for the ministry's aircraft and a $6 million, church-owned mansion"

From the article Granny posted...

Wow, private airstrip.. so I suppose there are planes or helicopters as well?

[Sam]

from the article:
"Kenneth Copeland Ministries is organized under the tax code as a church, so it gets a layer of privacy not afforded large secular and religious nonprofit groups that must disclose budgets and salaries. Pastors' pay must be "reasonable" under the federal tax code."

The whole "church" and "non-profit religious organizations" thing is kinda scary to me. Isn't it a form of corporate welfare or government establishment of religion to grant these organizations tax free status?

[Hoovie]

I wonder if there is a single major national ministry that takes in millions where the leaders have not succumbed to the lure of the money in the sense that they justify a huge income and lifestyle based on comparing the offering totals to a secular corporate entity's income.

It would be nice to see one of these outfits have leaders who settle for just a very nice house and upper middle class lifestyle vs mansions, jets, etc.

I rememer reading where Richard Roberts used the ministries jet for his daughter to take her girlfriends on a graduation trip or something like that to the Bahammas or somewhere.

I don't begrudge a minister a decent lifestyle but living extravagently off of offerings people give for God's work is ridiculous no matter what Sandra and the prosperity preachers say.


CC1, As unpopular as it is to ask, we should be discovering why it is that many Charismatic and Pentecostal Ministries are against full disclosure of church finances. Why is this problem not tracking in Lutheran and Baptist Ministries who willingly submit and are members of accountability organizations?

On a much smaller scale than the Televangelists, why are some of our churches anti-financial statements when it comes to "tithing accounts"?

These questions will be resolved eventually by a government requirement... what a shame.

[crakjak]

I wonder if there is a single major national ministry that takes in millions where the leaders have not succumbed to the lure of the money in the sense that they justify a huge income and lifestyle based on comparing the offering totals to a secular corporate entity's income.

It would be nice to see one of these outfits have leaders who settle for just a very nice house and upper middle class lifestyle vs mansions, jets, etc.

I rememer reading where Richard Roberts used the ministries jet for his daughter to take her girlfriends on a graduation trip or something like that to the Bahammas or somewhere.

I don't begrudge a minister a decent lifestyle but living extravagently off of offerings people give for God's work is ridiculous no matter what Sandra and the prosperity preachers say.

I totally agree, however what is decent to one can be extravagant to another. I am not comfortable with any of the televangelist methods, but I don't know the extent of their ministry, so I just leave them to the Lord and don't watch them nor do is judge them.

I lean more toward Focus on the Family, David Wilkerson and such.

[Sam]

...
On a much smaller scale than the Televangelists, why are some of our churches anti-financial statements when it comes to "tithing accounts"?
...
.

I know a man who was disfellowshipped from a local ALJC church because he wanted to know "where the money went."

When he asked, he was disfellowshipped, and then the lawyers said that since he wasn't a member they did not have to furnish financial disclosure.

From what I understand, he won his case in court but I haven't seen him in a while to talk about it so I don't know how it turned out.

[Sam]

...
I lean more toward Focus on the Family, David Wilkerson and such.


What is the annual compensation (salary, perks, other benefits, allowances) per year for:
James Dobson?
David Wilkerson?
Ken Haney?
Benny Hinn?

[Mrs. LPW]

What is the annual compensation (salary, perks, other benefits, allowances) per year for:
James Dobson?
David Wilkerson?
Ken Haney?
Benny Hinn?

Curious as to why K Haney is lumped in with tv preachers...

[Sam]

Curious as to why K Haney is lumped in with tv preachers...


Just wondering where he ranked with others?

[berkeley]

Oh come on. Every time someone brings up the faults of the trinitarians another person cries out "but you guys do it to." It gets old. Yeah, 'our' people are just as guilty, or more so. No one is disputing that.

[Hoovie]

Oh come on. Every time someone brings up the faults of the trinitarians another person cries out "but you guys do it to." It gets old. Yeah, 'our' people are just as guilty, or more so. No one is disputing that.

The Trinity and Oneness issue does not play into this - at least not to my knowledge. It seems to be a thing that the Pentecostal/Charismatics are plagued with. Financial scandal appears to be at epidemic levels among them, and it's quite disproportionate when comparing to the nonPentecostal religious community.

I think it's noteworthy that these same ministry types are also know to shun the accountability organizations (like http://www.ecfa.org/ ) that can help prevent and rectify the problems in question.

[Sam]

Curious as to why K Haney is lumped in with tv preachers...

Just wondering how a large organization like the UPC compares to radio ministries like Focus on the Family and to TV ministries like some of those I've listed.

Do we have any idea what kind of compensation those guys receive?
If they are non-profit, shouldn't information like that be available to the public?
Shouldn't there be some type of "watch dog" organization(s) monitoring them?
Are they hiding something?
If salaries are hidden and they are not paying taxes, doesn't that put more of a burden on those of us who are paying taxes?
I pay taxes on Social Security and a pension. Should others get by without paying taxes on income? or should real income be disguised and hidden so taxes (if any) are lower?

[Aquila]

This is why I favor house churches and bi-vocational elders.

[the raven]

This is why I favor house churches and bi-vocational elders.

Both of these ideas are totoally unscriptural and spring from the mind of philosofizers wishing to imbibe on the solitary solitude of dispositional and panderamically sertalocadratious individuals!

[Rico]

Both of these ideas are totoally unscriptural and spring from the mind of philosofizers wishing to imbibe on the solitary solitude of dispositional and panderamically sertalocadratious individuals!

House churches are unscriptural? What Bible are you reading?

[MissBrattified]

Both of these ideas are totally unscriptural and spring from the mind of philosophizers wishing to imbibe on the solitary solitude of dispositional and panderamically sertalocadratious individuals!

Um. Can you translate, please?

[the raven]

House churches are unscriptural? What Bible are you reading?


Currently I am not reading the bible however if you are wanting an explanation to my statement, I was not speaking in unilatteral terms but rather sociological and post modernistic ideaology. Within the foundation of scripture both the house and cathedral at large were used for worship however in our age the church in corporate form within a contextual conceptualization and authoritarian circumferance is the intended encapsulation for kairological outpourings in a chronistically saturated society.

That's all I was trying to say.

[Rico]

Currently I am not reading the bible however if you are wanting an explanation to my statement, I was not speaking in unilatteral terms but rather sociological and post modernistic ideaology. Within the foundation of scripture both the house and cathedral at large were used for worship however in our age the church in corporate form within a contextual conceptualization and authoritarian circumferance is the intended encapsulation for kairological outpourings in a chronistically saturated society.

That's all I was trying to say.

The Raven, you said house churches are unscriptural. You're wrong on that. Save all the fancy wording for someone who's interested. Who cares if the predominant way we meet today is in church buildings? That in no way makes house churches unscriptural.

[the raven]

The Raven, you said house churches are unscriptural. You're wrong on that. Save all the fancy wording for someone who's interested. Who cares if the predominant way we meet today is in church buildings? That in no way makes house churches unscriptural.

You are correct in that I said what you said I said BUT I did not mean what I said in the way that you interpreted what I said as being what I meant by what I said.

What I meant by what I said is given in the post that does not matter to you. I now believe it is scriptural just not in the exact essence of the meaning in which you possibly feel.

[Rico]

You are correct in that I said what you said I said BUT I did not mean what I said in the way that you interpreted what I said as being what I meant by what I said.

What I meant by what I said is given in the post that does not matter to you. I now believe it is scriptural just not in the exact essence of the meaning in which you possibly feel.

If you are interested in what I believe I will tell you that I believe in a sort of hybrid arrangement. My family and another family have started having house meetings. So far we have only been able to meet once. Neither family has a traditional church it belongs to, in case you are wondering. At our meeting we talked about incorporating visits to traditional churches so we can enjoy some corporate praise and worship. Unfortunately, our second meeting was cancelled, and we haven't scheduled another one yet. I am very much waiting to see how our meetings develop and what God does with our efforts.

[the raven]

If you are interested in what I believe I will tell you that I believe in a sort of hybrid arrangement. My family and another family have started having house meetings. So far we have only been able to meet once. Neither family has a traditional church it belongs to, in case you are wondering. At our meeting we talked about incorporating visits to traditional churches so we can enjoy some corporate praise and worship. Unfortunately, our second meeting was cancelled, and we haven't scheduled another one yet. I am very much waiting to see how our meetings develop and what God does with our efforts.


Sounds interesting. We started our church in our home and eventually outgrew it. Two things:

1) I feel strongly that there must be a pastor of the group no matter how big/small or location.

2) When it comes to bi-vocational pastors, I am one now. I pastor a church and work as a Instructional Assistant at our Middle School. That being said, since having to seek secular employment my ability to pastor as I would has suffered. As quickly as possible I will resume full time pastoring.

[Rico]

Sounds interesting. We started our church in our home and eventually outgrew it. Two things:

1) I feel strongly that there must be a pastor of the group no matter how big/small or location.

2) When it comes to bi-vocational pastors, I am one now. I pastor a church and work as a Instructional Assistant at our Middle School. That being said, since having to seek secular employment my ability to pastor as I would has suffered. As quickly as possible I will resume full time pastoring.

We don't have a pastor, but I have been involved in ministry before. My guess is that if things grow enough we will eventually have to choose someone to be our leader, preferably not me.

[the raven]

We don't have a pastor, but I have been involved in ministry before. My guess is that if things grow enough we will eventually have to choose someone to be our leader, preferably not me.

In these situations time is very important and folks will soon lokk for leadership. If you do not feel the call to pastor and or not under spiritual leadership yourself than for your protection and those of whom you reach, I would encourage you to reach out to a church where you all can be fed and leadership provided.

God often leads in mysterious ways and through prayer, fasting and humility direction will be given to you. It sounds as if you are a soul winner and hungry for God to move in your city. I wish there were more like yourself. Just remember that we cannot circumvent the blueprint in God's word when it comes to spiritual leadership and growth in God's kingdom.

Sorry for taking so long BUT this is exciting and also troubling news! I will be in prayer with you!

[Rhoni]

Brother, it takes money to do the work of the kingdom, the Copeland's raise more money in a year than most churches do in a lifetime. They invest in what they believe is the work of the kingdom. I am not particularly a fan of the Copeland's, but the idea that a para-church organization should not generate enormous amounts of money and pay the leaders well is ridiculous.

I agree...

[Rhoni]

In these situations time is very important and folks will soon lokk for leadership. If you do not feel the call to pastor and or not under spiritual leadership yourself than for your protection and those of whom you reach, I would encourage you to reach out to a church where you all can be fed and leadership provided.

God often leads in mysterious ways and through prayer, fasting and humility direction will be given to you. It sounds as if you are a soul winner and hungry for God to move in your city. I wish there were more like yourself. Just remember that we cannot circumvent the blueprint in God's word when it comes to spiritual leadership and growth in God's kingdom.

Sorry for taking so long BUT this is exciting and also troubling news! I will be in prayer with you!

What we consider God's "Just remember that we cannot circumvent the blueprint in God's word when it comes to spiritual leadership and growth in God's kingdom. blueprint might only be the North American way to raise a church and not God's way at all. I will say though that a group of men/women cannot lead without there being several areas of conflict. Even the Israelites wanted a king...someone to lead them. And then many fought against the rule of the King.

A board or group of men/committee who has a little power and control will not easily relinguish this control when a Pastor might present themselves. They might want a Pastor but in the end they enjoyed the power and control more than they want a Pastor. Just mark my words:)

Blessings, Rhoni

[Mrs. LPW]

Oh come on. Every time someone brings up the faults of the trinitarians another person cries out "but you guys do it to." It gets old. Yeah, 'our' people are just as guilty, or more so. No one is disputing that.

I don't know of any UPC preacher whose church owns an airstrip, but if you find me one let me know... I'd like to get to know them. :D

Sam, I don't know as the salary of my Gen Supt is hidden, I don't imagine it is. I don't personally know what he makes nor do I care. I know he's a man of God and integrity. What he makes, what he does with what he makes, is currently between him and God.

I just find it strange how a conversation can go from Kenneth Copeland, to Kenneth Haney so quickly. But then, this board is oftentimes very predictable.

[TRFrance]

Ridiculous is living in a 6 million dollar home, and living a life of luxury, while the people under you are hurting. Ridiculous is having the ability to do so much more for others, but instead you live the easy life. Give me a break, Copeland needs to re-read Jeremiah.

Well said. No preacher ever needs to live in a 6 million dollar home. period.

At best, that is a lack of wisdom and good judgment... and at worst, it's just shameful greed.

[Hoovie]

I don't know of any UPC preacher whose church owns an airstrip, but if you find me one let me know... I'd like to get to know them. :D

Sam, I don't know as the salary of my Gen Supt is hidden, I don't imagine it is. I don't personally know what he makes nor do I care. I know he's a man of God and integrity. What he makes, what he does with what he makes, is currently between him and God.

I just find it strange how a conversation can go from Kenneth Copeland, to Kenneth Haney so quickly. But then, this board is oftentimes very predictable.

I am quite sure the salaries at headquarters are not hidden from the General Board including the GS position.

[Monkeyman]

I don't know of any UPC preacher whose church owns an airstrip, but if you find me one let me know... I'd like to get to know them. :D

Sam, I don't know as the salary of my Gen Supt is hidden, I don't imagine it is. I don't personally know what he makes nor do I care. I know he's a man of God and integrity. What he makes, what he does with what he makes, is currently between him and God.

I just find it strange how a conversation can go from Kenneth Copeland, to Kenneth Haney so quickly. But then, this board is oftentimes very predictable.Bottom line, KH has money...BUT...it wasn't taken from any church or org, he made it, all by himself with SHREWD investments. He has a nose for the business world and if he went into business instead of ministry, he would have made gazzillions. His business savvy helped build the ministry up in Stockton....he is an honest man!!!

Sam, you could call Hazelwood and get a direct answer...folks before pounding on Sam, he has let us all know what his GE pension is!!!! I'm waiting for the Sam/GE fund for starving monkeys!!!

[MissBrattified]

Well, just for the record...my husband has always dreamed of having a small plane and his own airstrip. I see nothing wrong with that, whatsoever, if that's what he wants to do. :coffee2

In general, though, a non-profit organization has no good reason to conceal financial records. Why would you hide something if you're not doing anything wrong? If you've been sloppy with salaries and records over the years, well, then I suppose there is something to worry about.

[CC1]

The Trinity and Oneness issue does not play into this - at least not to my knowledge. It seems to be a thing that the Pentecostal/Charismatics are plagued with. Financial scandal appears to be at epidemic levels among them, and it's quite disproportionate when comparing to the nonPentecostal religious community.

I think it's noteworthy that these same ministry types are also know to shun the accountability organizations (like http://www.ecfa.org/ ) that can help prevent and rectify the problems in question.

I think there are multiple reasons for this being a problem more with Pentecostal / Charismatics. Here are some of the contributing factors I see;

1. Historically Pentecost was the church "across the railroad tracks" small and made up mostly of women. As the church grew and members became more affluent the pay structures that had been set up when 100% of the tithe was not enogh to feed and house the pastor became very generous and in many cases not changed. For that reason there are Pentecostal pastors who earn many times more than the vast majority of the saints in their church. Many have moved to some sort of defined income that is reasonable for a comfortable lifestyle, retirement, etc but does not just endlessly grow as the tithe income grows. A few though continue to use the tithe as a windfall to fund personal investments, multiple houses, etc

2. The sensationalistic nature of many of these large national ministries draws support (read that monetary support) from the elderly and lower socio economic class looking for hope and to get ahead in life. Many promote the so called "prosperity gospel" message that tells people Christianity is in essence a multi level marketing machine. If you bless their ministry it is guaranteed God will bless you regardless of your standing with God, committment to Him and His Word, etc. Scriptures are taken out of context to craft this message that God wants everybody to drive Mercedes, live in mansions, and never suffer. This has great appeal and brings in the bucks. Obviously those willing to distort the gospel in this way do not have the moral fortitude NOT to abuse their ill gained money.

3. "Blood is thicker than water" - I don't now why but nepotism seems to be a continuing problem in Pentecost / Charismatic circles. Perhaps because of the history of not having wealth, education, etc ministers feel a need to protect and prosper relatives regardless of their competency.

4. In the case of Black churches and ministries it seems that Black folks in America tend to live out their dreams for themselves when it comes to llifestyle through their ministers. They do not feel taken for a ride of fleeced for the most part when their pastors drive extraordinarily expensive cars and live in mansions. They seem to be proud and look to them as their representative of taking a piece of the American pie at the top.

[Sam]

...
Sam, I don't know as the salary of my Gen Supt is hidden, I don't imagine it is. I don't personally know what he makes nor do I care. I know he's a man of God and integrity. What he makes, what he does with what he makes, is currently between him and God.
...


I did not mean to compare Kenneth Haney with Kenneth Copeland.
Nor did I mean to compare the UPC with Kenneth Copeland's organization.

I do not support the UPC (except with purchases from the Publishing House) and therefore it is really none of my business what Kenneth Haney's salary is.

But, the UPC, Kenneth Copeland Ministries, and many other groups have non-profit status. Whatever money they make over and above expenses is not taxable. I'm sure the accounting is done in such a way that there is not shown any profit or income above expenses. Expenses would include salaries and perks of employees. I was just wondering if it is possible to even find out what the actual salaries are for folks like Dr. Dobson, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and Kenneth Haney and how they would compare.

Please don't take this as a putdown of Bro. Haney nor of the UPC.

[Sam]

...folks before pounding on Sam, he has let us all know what his GE pension is!!!! I'm waiting for the Sam/GE fund for starving monkeys!!!

GE pension after 32 years of service, plus Social Security after paying in from the age of 16 to the age of 62 is under $45K.

As far as charitable contributions, the left hand does not need to know what the right hand is doing.

[Mrs. LPW]

I did not mean to compare Kenneth Haney with Kenneth Copeland.
Nor did I mean to compare the UPC with Kenneth Copeland's organization.

I do not support the UPC (except with purchases from the Publishing House) and therefore it is really none of my business what Kenneth Haney's salary is.

But, the UPC, Kenneth Copeland Ministries, and many other groups have non-profit status. Whatever money they make over and above expenses is not taxable. I'm sure the accounting is done in such a way that there is not shown any profit or income above expenses. Expenses would include salaries and perks of employees. I was just wondering if it is possible to even find out what the actual salaries are for folks like Dr. Dobson, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and Kenneth Haney and how they would compare.

Please don't take this as a putdown of Bro. Haney nor of the UPC.

I didn't take it as a putdown... I just didn't see the connection between KC, BH and some of those others, to KH.

have no idea what Bro Haney makes as GS... I can't imagine it being near the amount that BH and KC would be pulling in. Not sure about Dobson... I've never seen any articles that have dug into FOTF's finances actually.

Has anyone else? From what I've seen of Dobson, he seems to like the simple life.

[Mrs. LPW]

GE pension after 32 years of service, plus Social Security after paying in from the age of 16 to the age of 62 is under $45K.

As far as charitable contributions, the left hand does not need to know what the right hand is doing.

GE as in? General Electric?
Seriously, I have no idea what GE stands for.

[TRFrance]

In the case of Black churches and ministries it seems that Black folks in America tend to live out their dreams for themselves when it comes to llifestyle through their ministers. They do not feel taken for a ride of fleeced for the most part when their pastors drive extraordinarily expensive cars and live in mansions. They seem to be proud and look to them as their representative of taking a piece of the American pie at the top.
Wow.
That is an unbelievably stupid and uninformed comment!

[pelathais]

I think there are multiple reasons for this being a problem more with Pentecostal / Charismatics. Here are some of the contributing factors I see;
... cars and live in mansions. They seem to be proud and look to them as their representative of taking a piece of the American pie at the top.
I think that your analysis is fair. "All tithes" during the lean years often meant that a lot of the pastors worked in a secular job and supported the church with more than a tithe of their own. After many years of such labor, when a "break through" is experienced it's inevitable that a lot of men would expect that the income was a "blessing" for their years of sacrifice.

Also, from my experiences, at least within Oneness circles most of the guys are rather generous themselves. One thing that you do run into that seems to spark problems from time to time is suspicion on the part of the pastor. These guys do get burned a bit. I've watched in frustration as people that I thought were obvious frauds would come along and get grand treatment while others were shown the door.

Churches of all kinds are often the target of scammers and many outright theives. Once you've been burned a few times it's hard to trust strangers and even "church people" again. So, some pastors sadly grow a thick skin.

But how much does one pastor "deserve" in income? That will always be debated. As long as Copeland's employing a large staff I guess we can say he's having a positive impact on the local economy. And if people are relocating to be "under his covering" (or whatever) then the Chamber of Commerce probably cheers him on as well.

Where I strenuously draw the line however, is when "giving" and "paying" are used in manipulative fashions to extort funds from the gullible. I find it strange that some folks who preach angrily against state lotteries will then tell folks to instead give money to them so that "good things" and "blessings" will happen to them. What's the difference between that pitch and the lottery ads I hear on the radio?

And a lot of "saints" that I've known talk about tithing as if it were an "investment" into the state lottery. They "hope" and "believe" that through the payment of their hard earned money they can buy favor with God. Since this "favor" appears to be rather hit and miss in its dispensation, I doubt divine involvement and see it as another superstition to curry favor with "forces" that may or may not exist beyond the ken of human awareness.

Here's a fact - a hard learned financial fact: The man who I spent the better part of my life supporting, feeding, clothing and putting a roof over his head despises me heartily and his church no longer even exists, for all intents and purposes. And...

If I had invested the money that I had given to him over the years I could retire today as a millionaire.

So instead of investing in my future, I invested in "the kingdom..." But I was deceived. The "kingdom" I was investing in (a local UPC church) was not affiliated with the Kingdom of God or any truly eternal principles, but was simply this other guy's retirement plan. So now he enjoys a comfortable retirement while I worry about mine.

I was a sap. A patsy. An easy mark.

[RevDWW]

Brother, it takes money to do the work of the kingdom, the Copeland's raise more money in a year than most churches do in a lifetime. They invest in what they believe is the work of the kingdom. I am not particularly a fan of the Copeland's, but the idea that a para-church organization should not generate enormous amounts of money and pay the leaders well is ridiculous.

"Pay the leaders well"? I think that the idea that church leaders are entitled to be paid well is ridiculous.

Pay the leaders fairly, yes. But where does it say church/ministry leaders must be paid well?

Jesus wasn't paid well, neither was Paul, or any of the other apostles, as far as we know.
What kind of money did Peter rake in while ministering? Didn't he have to go do a "secular" job to pay their taxes? :ursofunny

[CC1]

Wow.
That is an unbelievably stupid and uninformed comment!

It was not well worded. I do not mean all Black churches and saints. However many who deal with black churches in Pentecost / Charismatic circles a lot like St. Mark and Sandra have said as much themselves.

That a lot of black culture holds their preachers up as a kind of "royalty". Hence the bodyguards, mansions, expensive cars, etc.

In poor urban areas sometimes the saints can live vicariously through the lifestyle of their pastor.

It is a different mindset than in most white churches although I have seen a few charismatic ones where the preachers are almost worshipped and dealt with in this same manner.

[CC1]

I think that your analysis is fair. "All tithes" during the lean years often meant that a lot of the pastors worked in a secular job and supported the church with more than a tithe of their own. After many years of such labor, when a "break through" is experienced it's inevitable that a lot of men would expect that the income was a "blessing" for their years of sacrifice.

Also, from my experiences, at least within Oneness circles most of the guys are rather generous themselves. One thing that you do run into that seems to spark problems from time to time is suspicion on the part of the pastor. These guys do get burned a bit. I've watched in frustration as people that I thought were obvious frauds would come along and get grand treatment while others were shown the door.

Churches of all kinds are often the target of scammers and many outright theives. Once you've been burned a few times it's hard to trust strangers and even "church people" again. So, some pastors sadly grow a thick skin.

But how much does one pastor "deserve" in income? That will always be debated. As long as Copeland's employing a large staff I guess we can say he's having a positive impact on the local economy. And if people are relocating to be "under his covering" (or whatever) then the Chamber of Commerce probably cheers him on as well.

Where I strenuously draw the line however, is when "giving" and "paying" are used in manipulative fashions to extort funds from the gullible. I find it strange that some folks who preach angrily against state lotteries will then tell folks to instead give money to them so that "good things" and "blessings" will happen to them. What's the difference between that pitch and the lottery ads I hear on the radio?

And a lot of "saints" that I've known talk about tithing as if it were an "investment" into the state lottery. They "hope" and "believe" that through the payment of their hard earned money they can buy favor with God. Since this "favor" appears to be rather hit and miss in its dispensation, I doubt divine involvement and see it as another superstition to curry favor with "forces" that may or may not exist beyond the ken of human awareness.

Here's a fact - a hard learned financial fact: The man who I spent the better part of my life supporting, feeding, clothing and putting a roof over his head despises me heartily and his church no longer even exists, for all intents and purposes. And...

If I had invested the money that I had given to him over the years I could retire today as a millionaire.

So instead of investing in my future, I invested in "the kingdom..." But I was deceived. The "kingdom" I was investing in (a local UPC church) was not affiliated with the Kingdom of God or any truly eternal principles, but was simply this other guy's retirement plan. So now he enjoys a comfortable retirement while I worry about mine.

I was a sap. A patsy. An easy mark.

Yikes! Sorry you invested so much time and money into a dud but the good news is that you did it as unto the Lord so once the money left your hands it became that pastors responsiblity to God about how it was spent.

You stand blameless before the Lord and the same as if the money had been spent correctly.

So really you were not a pasty or sap. Just an honest hearted person doing their best to support God's work on earth.

[RevDWW]

Yikes! Sorry you invested so much time and money into a dud but the good news is that you did it as unto the Lord so once the money left your hands it became that pastors responsiblity to God about how it was spent.

You stand blameless before the Lord and the same as if the money had been spent correctly.

So really you were not a pasty or sap. Just an honest hearted person doing their best to support God's work on earth.

Amen. Nicely said CC!

[Mrs. LPW]

Here's a fact - a hard learned financial fact: The man who I spent the better part of my life supporting, feeding, clothing and putting a roof over his head despises me heartily and his church no longer even exists, for all intents and purposes. And...

If I had invested the money that I had given to him over the years I could retire today as a millionaire.

So instead of investing in my future, I invested in "the kingdom..." But I was deceived. The "kingdom" I was investing in (a local UPC church) was not affiliated with the Kingdom of God or any truly eternal principles, but was simply this other guy's retirement plan. So now he enjoys a comfortable retirement while I worry about mine.

I was a sap. A patsy. An easy mark.

God will not be debter to anyone Prax, he'll look after you and then some. Don't begrudge what you gave. You gave in good faith and cheerfully (I presume)

[the raven]

I think that your analysis is fair. "All tithes" during the lean years often meant that a lot of the pastors worked in a secular job and supported the church with more than a tithe of their own. After many years of such labor, when a "break through" is experienced it's inevitable that a lot of men would expect that the income was a "blessing" for their years of sacrifice.

Also, from my experiences, at least within Oneness circles most of the guys are rather generous themselves. One thing that you do run into that seems to spark problems from time to time is suspicion on the part of the pastor. These guys do get burned a bit. I've watched in frustration as people that I thought were obvious frauds would come along and get grand treatment while others were shown the door.

Churches of all kinds are often the target of scammers and many outright theives. Once you've been burned a few times it's hard to trust strangers and even "church people" again. So, some pastors sadly grow a thick skin.

But how much does one pastor "deserve" in income? That will always be debated. As long as Copeland's employing a large staff I guess we can say he's having a positive impact on the local economy. And if people are relocating to be "under his covering" (or whatever) then the Chamber of Commerce probably cheers him on as well.

Where I strenuously draw the line however, is when "giving" and "paying" are used in manipulative fashions to extort funds from the gullible. I find it strange that some folks who preach angrily against state lotteries will then tell folks to instead give money to them so that "good things" and "blessings" will happen to them. What's the difference between that pitch and the lottery ads I hear on the radio?

And a lot of "saints" that I've known talk about tithing as if it were an "investment" into the state lottery. They "hope" and "believe" that through the payment of their hard earned money they can buy favor with God. Since this "favor" appears to be rather hit and miss in its dispensation, I doubt divine involvement and see it as another superstition to curry favor with "forces" that may or may not exist beyond the ken of human awareness.

Here's a fact - a hard learned financial fact: The man who I spent the better part of my life supporting, feeding, clothing and putting a roof over his head despises me heartily and his church no longer even exists, for all intents and purposes. And...

If I had invested the money that I had given to him over the years I could retire today as a millionaire.

So instead of investing in my future, I invested in "the kingdom..." But I was deceived. The "kingdom" I was investing in (a local UPC church) was not affiliated with the Kingdom of God or any truly eternal principles, but was simply this other guy's retirement plan. So now he enjoys a comfortable retirement while I worry about mine.

I was a sap. A patsy. An easy mark.

You're right but just think about all the others who learned from your example. See, you realy have beena success!

[Sam]

GE as in? General Electric?
Seriously, I have no idea what GE stands for.

Yes, GE as in General Electric.

[Mrs. LPW]

I said Prax... meant Pelathais, I get your usernames mixed up. My eye reads one and my mind thinks immediately of the other.

[Mrs. LPW]

Yes, GE as in General Electric.

Ah!

[pelathais]

CC1, Mrs. LPW, the raven (not to be confused with Raven) and DWW -

Thanks for the feedback... the glass is half full...

I don't begrudge myself of the life I've lived. I made choices of my own free will and no one ever held a gun to my head (except a couple of times, but that didn't influence my decisions).

My primary concern is that we continue to grow and mature as a culture. In order for our children to avoid the mistakes we have made we need to speak openly about our experiences. This is the way in which experiences are shared and wisdom hopefully grows.

We have an unfortunate tendency to follow the natural human inclinations toward easy answers and quick fixes to our problems. When it comes to wisdom , we simply quote James and "ask of God..." But wisdom, by its very nature is the fruit of experience; either our own or the experiences of others. Wisdom is the accumulated knowledge and experience of generations.

Our movement/culture is still very young in many respects. And we have determinedly eliminated a great deal of wisdom and experience learned by earlier cultures so we have forced ourselves into the position of having to reinvent the wheel. This necessitates that we be more open about our experiences instead closed and silent.

[Jason B]

Well, just for the record...my husband has always dreamed of having a small plane and his own airstrip. I see nothing wrong with that, whatsoever, if that's what he wants to do. :coffee2

In general, though, a non-profit organization has no good reason to conceal financial records. Why would you hide something if you're not doing anything wrong? If you've been sloppy with salaries and records over the years, well, then I suppose there is something to worry about.

Uhh, is A small plane the same as 4 (FOUR) private JETS???? Okay, just checking.

See my posts on p.1 this guy gets under my skin, every day I have to manage an employee who can barely feed his family, who gives BEYOND tithes to the copeland ministry, and is so blinded by the man. I can't help it, I am disgusted.

[Praxeas]

The salaries and monies paid are not at all out of line with the size of the organization or compensation paid to executives of a comparable size corporation. Matter of fact, they are very conservation in comparison.
Did you read the whole article? The issue is not about salaries, it's more about WHO gets the salaries and what other financial perks they get

[Praxeas]

CC1, As unpopular as it is to ask, we should be discovering why it is that many Charismatic and Pentecostal Ministries are against full disclosure of church finances. Why is this problem not tracking in Lutheran and Baptist Ministries who willingly submit and are members of accountability organizations?

On a much smaller scale than the Televangelists, why are some of our churches anti-financial statements when it comes to "tithing accounts"?

These questions will be resolved eventually by a government requirement... what a shame.
Because many of those churches have boards that run things, the Pastor is an employee. In the charismatic and pentecostal churches often the Pastor is the boss. He gets all the tithe

[Praxeas]

Currently I am not reading the bible however if you are wanting an explanation to my statement, I was not speaking in unilatteral terms but rather sociological and post modernistic ideaology. Within the foundation of scripture both the house and cathedral at large were used for worship however in our age the church in corporate form within a contextual conceptualization and authoritarian circumferance is the intended encapsulation for kairological outpourings in a chronistically saturated society.

That's all I was trying to say.
lol...stop trying to impress everyone with big words because you only make yourself look silly particularly when you can't spell the words right. Cathedral? Foundation of scripture?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.........AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Good grief. I don't know whether you are pulling our legs or you really are that obtuse :ursofunny

[Hoovie]

This is one of my favorite posts of all time!



CC1, Mrs. LPW, the raven (not to be confused with Raven) and DWW -

Thanks for the feedback... the glass is half full...

I don't begrudge myself of the life I've lived. I made choices of my own free will and no one ever held a gun to my head (except a couple of times, but that didn't influence my decisions).

My primary concern is that we continue to grow and mature as a culture. In order for our children to avoid the mistakes we have made we need to speak openly about our experiences. This is the way in which experiences are shared and wisdom hopefully grows.

We have an unfortunate tendency to follow the natural human inclinations toward easy answers and quick fixes to our problems. When it comes to wisdom , we simply quote James and "ask of God..." But wisdom, by its very nature is the fruit of experience; either our own or the experiences of others. Wisdom is the accumulated knowledge and experience of generations.

Our movement/culture is still very young in many respects. And we have determinedly eliminated a great deal of wisdom and experience learned by earlier cultures so we have forced ourselves into the position of having to reinvent the wheel. This necessitates that we be more open about our experiences instead closed and silent.

[Sandra]

Brother, it takes money to do the work of the kingdom, the Copeland's raise more money in a year than most churches do in a lifetime. They invest in what they believe is the work of the kingdom. I am not particularly a fan of the Copeland's, but the idea that a para-church organization should not generate enormous amounts of money and pay the leaders well is ridiculous.

I know that many ministries all over the country pay tithes to Kenneth Copeland, they consider him their pastor.
I know of one pastor who gave him 700,000.00 when he turned 70. :)

[tv1a]

I'd bet a dollar to a donut the Copelands have given more to the work of God than they have received. Who are we to put the glass ceiling on God's blessing? People complain and gripe about the extravagant lifestyles of some of the tv preachers in ignorance. Most of well known evangelists are giving away millions of dollars for the Kingdom of God. Some tv preachers make their money off successful investments. It is condescending to suggest a preacher should be limited in what blessings come his way.

I wonder if there is a single major national ministry that takes in millions where the leaders have not succumbed to the lure of the money in the sense that they justify a huge income and lifestyle based on comparing the offering totals to a secular corporate entity's income.

It would be nice to see one of these outfits have leaders who settle for just a very nice house and upper middle class lifestyle vs mansions, jets, etc.

I rememer reading where Richard Roberts used the ministries jet for his daughter to take her girlfriends on a graduation trip or something like that to the Bahammas or somewhere.

I don't begrudge a minister a decent lifestyle but living extravagently off of offerings people give for God's work is ridiculous no matter what Sandra and the prosperity preachers say.

[Jason B]

so tv1a at what point does it become okay to live like a king? I would think in the very least not until the FAITHFUL people of the congregation at least have neceessities. Or tell them they don't have to keep tithing to copeland while their families go without the basics. Plus, its not hard to give alot, when you take so much in. big deal if he hs given money, often times these charismatics preachers give money to each other, just pasing the wealth around. Mike Murdock was telling a story how that a preacher friend of his gave him a million dollars, and he got some rare car, that was one of only 10 made, blah, blah, blah. Then He told the people that he needed 1000 people to send him $1,000, and that every time "God blesses me, He will bless you. If God gives me a rolex, He will give you a rolex." (why don't we have a PUKE smiley?)

Anyway Mike Murdock's church is in Haltom City (which I drive by on my way back from Arlington on sunday mornings) and the people leaving his church are driving clunkers, windows down (NO A/C) its 105 degrees outside. and this guy is living out in Argyle in a mansions, he literally has exoctic animals as pets, lions, tigers, I can't remember what, all kinds of cars, the list goes on and on. This makes me sick, I don't understand how anyone can sit here and think that ANY preacher is entitled to live like this. I don't care how much they give, or how great a preacher, no PREACHER should live like this in this present life. I'm not against a precher being blessed or having nice thing, My former pastor had a nice home, new cars, a pool ,and a nice RV. I got no problem with that, I have a problem with houses that cost more than large churches, and more than you can buy an entire grocery store for, and private jets, and exotic animals, and vacations homes, etc. Where are you pukey smiley, because i am sick.

[Praxeas]

I'd bet a dollar to a donut the Copelands have given more to the work of God than they have received. Who are we to put the glass ceiling on God's blessing? People complain and gripe about the extravagant lifestyles of some of the tv preachers in ignorance. Most of well known evangelists are giving away millions of dollars for the Kingdom of God. Some tv preachers make their money off successful investments. It is condescending to suggest a preacher should be limited in what blessings come his way.
Are they blessings coming his way or are they the result of preaching "you gotta give ME money before God will bless you" WOF type rubbish?

BTW I'd really like to see that list of TV preachers who regularly give away millions. Are they giving away their own million? Or the church's?

[ThePastorsCoach]

I pray that God continues to bless The Copeland's, The Dollars, Mike Murdock and others that are GIVERS in life. GOD BLESS THEM ALL!

I get so weary of hearing these DEADBEATS that have never accomplished anything in their lives and are always begging for a meeting or a hand out - being so CRITICAL of those that GIVE and are BLESSED for it!
Who cares that YOU have a problem Jason? Stay broke, busted, disgusted and depressed and see how many people YOU help.
Its always the ones sitting on the sidelines that think they know the most.

If you didn't give anything - you should uhhhhh - NOT SAY ANYTHING!!
You have NO RIGHT to be critical of them and what business is it of yours?

[ThePastorsCoach]

JESUS WAS RICH! PRAISE THE LORD! His first offering was GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[berkeley]

JESUS WAS RICH! PRAISE THE LORD! His first offering was GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:ursofunny

[TRFrance]

I'd bet a dollar to a donut the Copelands have given more to the work of God than they have received. Who are we to put the glass ceiling on God's blessing? People complain and gripe about the extravagant lifestyles of some of the tv preachers in ignorance. Most of well known evangelists are giving away millions of dollars for the Kingdom of God. Some tv preachers make their money off successful investments. It is condescending to suggest a preacher should be limited in what blessings come his way.
Are they blessings coming his way or are they the result of preaching "you gotta give ME money before God will bless you" WOF type rubbish?

BTW I'd really like to see that list of TV preachers who regularly give away millions. Are they giving away their own million? Or the church's?

The bible says let not your good be evil spoken of. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean its a good idea to do it.

No-one in ministry NEEDS to live in a $6 million house.

Not only does it appear ostentatious,but some us us [like me] think it's just not good judgment.

[ThePastorsCoach]

And the starving Christians in third would countries would say NOBODY - especially CHRISTIANS, should live in a $100,000 house and have two cars and pay $4.00 a gallon for gas and wear store bought clothes and worship in million $$$ church buildings!

[TRFrance]

I get so weary of hearing these DEADBEATS that have never accomplished anything in their lives and are always begging for a meeting or a hand out - being so CRITICAL of those that GIVE and are BLESSED for it!
Who cares that YOU have a problem Jason? Stay broke, busted, disgusted and depressed and see how many people YOU help.
Its always the ones sitting on the sidelines that think they know the most.

If you didn't give anything - shut your stupid mouth! You have NO RIGHT to be critical of them and what business is it of yours?
Unnecessarily harsh.

[berkeley]

Unnecessarily harsh.

You haven't accomplished anything until you have a segment on TBN. :)

[ThePastorsCoach]

Unnecessarily harsh.

Thanks for the rebuke! I corrected it! God bless you! It is too late to be up anyway!:snapout

[TRFrance]

No problem.

:thumbsup

[gloryseeker]

Thanks for the rebuke! I corrected it! God bless you! It is too late to be up anyway!:snapout

It may have tended toward the harsh side, but a good kick to get woke up is good at times. Personally, I think your post was well said!

[Praxeas]

And the starving Christians in third would countries would say NOBODY - especially CHRISTIANS, should live in a $100,000 house and have two cars and pay $4.00 a gallon for gas and wear store bought clothes and worship in million $$$ church buildings!
They just MIGHT say that. I am reminded how the churches collected offerings for the poor believers in Jerusalem because of the hardships they endured.

[ThePastorsCoach]

They just MIGHT say that. I am reminded how the churches collected offerings for the poor believers in Jerusalem because of the hardships they endured.

Yes and isn't it obvious that SOMEBODY had to HAVE money to GIVE to them!
I know that most of the million $$$ ministries GIVE CONSIDERABLY to pastors and churches in third world nations.
I know many of these Pastors with world wide ministries and they give many millions every year to help people.

[Praxeas]

Yes and isn't it obvious that SOMEBODY had to HAVE money to GIVE to them!
I know that most of the million $$$ ministries GIVE CONSIDERABLY to pastors and churches in third world nations.
I know many of these Pastors with world wide ministries and they give many millions every year to help people.
yes exactly, they had money to GIVE to them. They GAVE their money...reminds me again of another verse

Act 4:32 Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common.
Act 4:33 And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all.
Act 4:34 There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold
Act 4:35 and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need.
Act 4:36 Thus Joseph, who was also called by the apostles Barnabas (which means son of encouragement), a Levite, a native of Cyprus,
Act 4:37 sold a field that belonged to him and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet.

Are they giving their millions or are they giving the churches millions? I think the problem some have is that while poor and middle class Americans are being enticed by slick preaching to give and be blessed to some (not all) Television preachers (being promised of huge financial gains) much of that money is going into the pockets of those preachers who are in turn giving the rest of what the church offered to help others.

I guess some of these preachers are more wealthy than what we thought if they are giving away millions and millions of their own money yet still have enough left to buy investment properties, their own personal mansions, expensive cars, personal airports and private jets.

[Praxeas]

Yes and isn't it obvious that SOMEBODY had to HAVE money to GIVE to them!
I know that most of the million $$$ ministries GIVE CONSIDERABLY to pastors and churches in third world nations.
I know many of these Pastors with world wide ministries and they give many millions every year to help people.
You know AB...I'd be willing to bet MOST of ANY money that goes to help the poor come from poor and middle class Christians...mostly from the middle class...even if it first went to some slick Televangelist promising blessings for money

[Praxeas]

It's not just "Apostolics" saying this and it is not just losers with no money. There are many evangelicals and some that have well performing national ministries.

Responding with disdain does not help alleviate anyones reservations. It looks bad to many not because they have no money but simply because in scriptures the ministers were not getting fat off of the saints. In fact it was usually the opposite. Paul and the other Apostles were POOR for our sakes.

[ThePastorsCoach]

You know AB...I'd be willing to bet MOST of ANY money that goes to help the poor come from poor and middle class Christians...mostly from the middle class...even if it first went to some slick Televangelist promising blessings for money

Does anyone MAKE THEM GIVE? You know it is ALWAYS the ones that give the least that gripe the most.
If they don't give to our ministry - they have not ONE right to open their mouth about how one dime is spent.
You just want to judge them. It is none of your business to start with.
What does someone even have a clue about spending millions of $$$ if they have never even seen a million? NOTHING!
These men run multi-million $$$ corporations.
How do you know what YOU would do if given a million $$$?
It is a shame and a disgrace how some on here run their mouths about ministers that are helping more people in a DAY than you help in a lifetime!
Shame on you!
I could expose so many of the officials and former officials at WEC and Superintendents for the double dipping and spending money like it was going out of style and using men to come in to raise millions and give them a pittance. PURE THIEVERY! Filthy mouths and nasty talk night and day and the disrespect of good men that love God but would not lie for them.
Some wonder why good men leave - its the DOUBLE STANDARD! HYPOCRISY!
If you want to talk about ABUSE in MINISTRY - I could write a book about places I have been where ALL of you know them - but at least their wives don't cut their hair! Well, not where you can see it anyhow!

[RevDWW]

Seems many of the "name it and claim it" set are seeking the kudos and approval from the world rather than Jesus, else they wouldn't worry so much about accumulating the "finer" things of this world.

Jesus mentioned that if you do things to be seen of man, when you are seen you've gotten your reward.


And I'm not an ignorant loser with no money.........:tease

[Praxeas]

Does anyone MAKE THEM GIVE? You know it is ALWAYS the ones that give the least that gripe the most.
If they don't give to our ministry - they have not ONE right to open their mouth about how one dime is spent.
You just want to judge them. It is none of your business to start with.
What does someone even have a clue about spending millions of $$$ if they have never even seen a million? NOTHING!
These men run multi-million $$$ corporations.
How do you know what YOU would do if given a million $$$?
It is a shame and a disgrace how some on here run their mouths about ministers that are helping more people in a DAY than you help in a lifetime!
Shame on you!

lol....shame on me. Is this the best you can do AB? You hate anyone that has an opinion unlike yours don't you? I never said one thing about what I would do personally if I had millions. That is beside the point and just more red herring arguments from you. They ar supposed to be PASTORS not CEOS of corporations. Something is wrong with people if they think that is what a pastor is. You know it's usually the ones fleecing the flock to support their own lifestyles that whine like you do.

I could expose so many of the officials and former officials at WEC and Superintendents for the double dipping and spending money like it was going out of style and using men to come in to raise millions and give them a pittance. PURE THIEVERY! Filthy mouths and nasty talk night and day and the disrespect of good men that love God but would not lie for them.
Some wonder why good men leave - its the DOUBLE STANDARD! HYPOCRISY!
again RED HERRING argument. You don't see me defending any official or former official of the WEC or anything else. As I pointed out evangelicals are raising this issue and they raise it the MOST. It was not a UPCer that wrote that article. I could not care less what you can expose. Does NOT justify a bunch of wealthy CEO's getting wealthy by pretending to be Pastors and using their trust status to rake in the wealth from dirt poor individuals then spending it on private airports and jets and other rediculous things....oh yeah and a bucket of rice for a family in the Sudan.

If you want to talk about ABUSE in MINISTRY - I could write a book about places I have been where ALL of you know them - but at least their wives don't cut their hair! Well, not where you can see it anyhow!
Again red herring argument. AB you don't appear to have a leg to stand on. Just emotive arguments, red herring and ad hominem.

[Praxeas]

Seems many of the "name it and claim it" set are seeking the kudos and approval from the world rather than Jesus, else they wouldn't worry so much about accumulating the "finer" things of this world.

Jesus mentioned that if you do things to be seen of man, when you are seen you've gotten your reward.


And I'm not an ignorant loser with no money.........:tease
Exactly. BTW I still want to know, whose millions are they supposedly giving away? Their own? Or the millions from trusting individuals. You know, AB, me thinketh thou protesteth too much

[RevDWW]

Does anyone MAKE THEM GIVE? You know it is ALWAYS the ones that give the least that gripe the most.
If they don't give to our ministry - they have not ONE right to open their mouth about how one dime is spent.
You just want to judge them. It is none of your business to start with.
What does someone even have a clue about spending millions of $$$ if they have never even seen a million? NOTHING!
These men run multi-million $$$ corporations.
How do you know what YOU would do if given a million $$$?
It is a shame and a disgrace how some on here run their mouths about ministers that are helping more people in a DAY than you help in a lifetime!
Shame on you!
I could expose so many of the officials and former officials at WEC and Superintendents for the double dipping and spending money like it was going out of style and using men to come in to raise millions and give them a pittance. PURE THIEVERY! Filthy mouths and nasty talk night and day and the disrespect of good men that love God but would not lie for them.
Some wonder why good men leave - its the DOUBLE STANDARD! HYPOCRISY!
If you want to talk about ABUSE in MINISTRY - I could write a book about places I have been where ALL of you know them - but at least their wives don't cut their hair! Well, not where you can see it anyhow!

Pointing to someone else doing wrong to deflect notice of guilt from someone you are protecting is not a strong defense. :whistle

Shame on all preachers that defraud folks!

[Praxeas]

It's amazing to me someone "in the know" can tell us how corrupt Janita Bynum is but be so blind not to see the false prosperty gospel the likes of Creflo dollar and the others are preaching. They are getting wealthy because their gospel is a gospel of wealth and they are duping a lot of people. I can say that and I will say it regardless of what perjorative waste you post in response!

[berkeley]

It's amazing to me someone "in the know" can tell us how corrupt Janita Bynum is but be so blind not to see the false prosperty gospel the likes of Creflo dollar and the others are preaching. They are getting wealthy because their gospel is a gospel of wealth and they are duping a lot of people. I can say that and I will say it regardless of what perjorative waste you post in response!
Don't they share a building now?

[Praxeas]

Don't they share a building now?lol

[tv1a]

One of most abused scriptures in Pentecost. I'm supposed to tell God, I can't accept your blessing because some self righteous player hater doesn't think it is right. I don't think so. If I am given an opportunity for a multi million dollar home, you better believe I'll take it.

AB and Sandra maybe able to help me with figures. But when I studied out how much these televangelists make vs how much they pour back into the ministry, I say more power to them. Many of them pour somewhere between 40-80 percent of their income back into the ministry. And we want to whine and bellyache because they live in a multi-million dollar house. The only evil spoken is those of the playa haters and the pot stirrers. The preacher should live in the most expensive house in the neighborhood. His job is that important.
If the Bible says we can be rewarded 100 fold in THIS LIFE and in the LIFE to come, than a $6 million home shouldn't be out of the ordinary for a preacher. Who knows, maybe it was a crapper of a house before they fixed it up.

If I am a preacher and I am giving 40-80 percent of my income back into the kingdom of God, I'd salute the naysayers with one finger as I bask in the blessings of the Lord.

Why do we hate the tv preachers who make millions have discovered the principle, the blessings of the Lord maketh RICH... and adds NO SORROW to it?

The bible says let not your good be evil spoken of. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean its a good idea to do it.

No-one in ministry NEEDS to live in a $6 million house.

Not only does it appear ostentatious,but some us us [like me] think it's just not good judgment.

[tv1a]

Dead on AB...

Many people are operating under the peanut brittle blessing. Here a little there a little. God didn't call His church to make that awful stuff... God called us to be the head and not the tail. That means financially as well as spiritually.

Does anyone MAKE THEM GIVE? You know it is ALWAYS the ones that give the least that gripe the most.
If they don't give to our ministry - they have not ONE right to open their mouth about how one dime is spent.
You just want to judge them. It is none of your business to start with.
What does someone even have a clue about spending millions of $$$ if they have never even seen a million? NOTHING!
These men run multi-million $$$ corporations.
How do you know what YOU would do if given a million $$$?
It is a shame and a disgrace how some on here run their mouths about ministers that are helping more people in a DAY than you help in a lifetime!
Shame on you!
I could expose so many of the officials and former officials at WEC and Superintendents for the double dipping and spending money like it was going out of style and using men to come in to raise millions and give them a pittance. PURE THIEVERY! Filthy mouths and nasty talk night and day and the disrespect of good men that love God but would not lie for them.
Some wonder why good men leave - its the DOUBLE STANDARD! HYPOCRISY!
If you want to talk about ABUSE in MINISTRY - I could write a book about places I have been where ALL of you know them - but at least their wives don't cut their hair! Well, not where you can see it anyhow!

[gloryseeker]

Dead on AB...

Many people are operating under the peanut brittle blessing. Here a little there a little. God didn't call His church to make that awful stuff... God called us to be the head and not the tail. That means financially as well as spiritually.

But you gotta admit that peanut brittle is some of the best!

[Jason B]

I pray that God continues to bless The Copeland's, The Dollars, Mike Murdock and others that are GIVERS in life. GOD BLESS THEM ALL!

I get so weary of hearing these DEADBEATS that have never accomplished anything in their lives and are always begging for a meeting or a hand out - being so CRITICAL of those that GIVE and are BLESSED for it!
Who cares that YOU have a problem Jason? Stay broke, busted, disgusted and depressed and see how many people YOU help.
Its always the ones sitting on the sidelines that think they know the most.

If you didn't give anything - you should uhhhhh - NOT SAY ANYTHING!!
You have NO RIGHT to be critical of them and what business is it of yours?


thanks for the kind words "bishop" I was not speaking on my behalf, I am not the one who lived in someones backyard with my family and gave all my money to copeland-but one of my employees did, and got basically NO SUPPORT from that rich church.

Am I wealthy, no. am I broke and without necessities, no. Am I depressed, busted, broke, no. Am I disgusted with this FAKE GOSPEL and those who abuse and take advantage of GOOD PEOPLE, Yes, absolutely.

I do have a right to be critical, when there are things that are blantantly against the scripture, someone needs to speak up. I live close to this church, I see people who go to this church, they speak often to me.
As I said Copeland should read Jeremiah, maybe you should too.

[Jason B]

AB are you getting kick backs?

[RevDWW]

One of most abused scriptures in Pentecost. I'm supposed to tell God, I can't accept your blessing because some self righteous player hater doesn't think it is right. I don't think so. If I am given an opportunity for a multi million dollar home, you better believe I'll take it.

AB and Sandra maybe able to help me with figures. But when I studied out how much these televangelists make vs how much they pour back into the ministry, I say more power to them. Many of them pour somewhere between 40-80 percent of their income back into the ministry. And we want to whine and bellyache because they live in a multi-million dollar house. The only evil spoken is those of the playa haters and the pot stirrers. The preacher should live in the most expensive house in the neighborhood. His job is that important.
If the Bible says we can be rewarded 100 fold in THIS LIFE and in the LIFE to come, than a $6 million home shouldn't be out of the ordinary for a preacher. Who knows, maybe it was a crapper of a house before they fixed it up.

If I am a preacher and I am giving 40-80 percent of my income back into the kingdom of God, I'd salute the naysayers with one finger as I bask in the blessings of the Lord.

Why do we hate the tv preachers who make millions have discovered the principle, the blessings of the Lord maketh RICH... and adds NO SORROW to it?

Sometimes the gullible maketh the tv preacher rich. :ursofunny

[RevDWW]

Ephesians 4:17-21 ( KJV ) 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:


What does Jesus have to say ?


Luke 12:13-34 ( KJV ) 13 And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me. 14 And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you? 15And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth. 16And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: 17And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? 18And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. 19And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. 20But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? 21So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

22And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on. 23The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment. 24Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls? 25And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit? 26If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest? 27Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 28If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith? 29And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. 30For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. 31But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. 32Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 33Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. 34For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Yeap, that's what I thought, get a multi-million dollar mansion, fleece the flock, get all you can here and now.........NOT.

[Praxeas]

40-60% of WHAT gets poured back into THEIR ministry? What the heck does that mean? Pour it out into someone else's ministry. Pour it out on the needy, don't pour it out into more television time. Where do you get these facts? Like I told AB if they are giving away millions WHOSE millions are they giving away? Their own or the millions that poor trusting and deluded suckers are giving them because they were promised via the false prosperity gospel that they will get rich quick by giving lots to these shysters?

If they are giving away millions someone show me the records and where that million is going. Did Creflo tell you this personally? I can't believe you guys are that naive.

[Praxeas]

Those poor faithless Apostles. What suckers they were. All that time being poor, naked and beaten all for the gospel when God's plan all along was to set up their personal Kingdom with mansions and golden chariots. Those poor saps died for their faith. If only they can see how it was really supposed to happen Im sure they would be very upset

[shag]

Those poor faithless Apostles. What suckers they were. All that time being poor, naked and beaten all for the gospel when God's plan all along was to set up their personal Kingdom with mansions and golden chariots. Those poor saps died for their faith. If only they can see how it was really supposed to happen Im sure they would be very upset

:ursofunny

Hey, atleast Judas had it figured out, (up till the crucifixion).

[Praxeas]

Oh yeah.....he would make a great televangelist

[Jason B]

:ursofunny

Hey, atleast Judas had it figured out, (up till the crucifixion).

ding, ding, ding, we have a winner.

[tv1a]

Another false assumption is every penny a tv evangelist makes comes from donations...

40-60% of WHAT gets poured back into THEIR ministry? What the heck does that mean? Pour it out into someone else's ministry. Pour it out on the needy, don't pour it out into more television time. Where do you get these facts? Like I told AB if they are giving away millions WHOSE millions are they giving away? Their own or the millions that poor trusting and deluded suckers are giving them because they were promised via the false prosperity gospel that they will get rich quick by giving lots to these shysters?

If they are giving away millions someone show me the records and where that million is going. Did Creflo tell you this personally? I can't believe you guys are that naive.

[Sam]

Another false assumption is every penny a tv evangelist makes comes from donations...

Some can come in from book and music sales.

[tv1a]

Who said they were poor? Peter and his brother were in the family business. Paul came from an influential family. Barabas had a lot of money. Lydia sold purple clothing. Paul acknowledges rich people in his writings. Just admit your jealous. When you give 60% of your income back into the kingdom of God. Then you can tell me how to spend my 40%.

Here's something you should have learned in economics. That $6 million house the preacher lives in was built by a carpenter who put food on his table and maybe a beer or two in his belly. The jet the preacher flies in to get to speaking engagements was built by a union worker trying to earn a living. The plane is flown by a pilot who is getting PAID to fly the plane. Trckle down economics is biblical.

Obviously no one noticed Jesus selected businessmen as his disciples. Although that's not the only reason they were selected, but a good business man makes a good preacher, especially on the adminstration side.

Those poor faithless Apostles. What suckers they were. All that time being poor, naked and beaten all for the gospel when God's plan all along was to set up their personal Kingdom with mansions and golden chariots. Those poor saps died for their faith. If only they can see how it was really supposed to happen Im sure they would be very upset

[Sam]

...
Here's something you should have learned in economics. That $6 million house the preacher lives in was built by a carpenter who put food on his table and maybe a beer or two in his belly. The jet the preacher flies in to get to speaking engagements was built by a union worker trying to earn a living. The plane is flown by a pilot who is getting PAID to fly the plane. Trckle down economics is biblical.
...


Some of the things being investigated are if the house is exempt from taxes because it is designated as a building used for religious purposes, and if the jet which is designated as a ministry tool has been utilized for personal family/friend use.

[tv1a]

Another false assumption is the only people giving are poor, uneducated people. Mike Murdoch tells when a man gave him a customized $100,000 BMW. I don't know any stupid poor people with that kind of money to throw away.

There are people who think Kenneth Haney lives like royalty. It's all in the mind. I find the people who do the most fussing have no dog in the fight. It's just an excuse to pacify their mediocrity.

Some can come in from book and music sales.

[tv1a]

That is a smoke screen. If the government has a problem with how people file taxes, they should close the loophole. The flat tax would close a lot of the loopholes our beloved irs has created.

Some of the things being investigated are if the house is exempt from taxes because it is designated as a building used for religious purposes, and if the jet which is designated as a ministry tool has been utilized for personal family/friend use.

[Praxeas]

Another false assumption is the only people giving are poor, uneducated people. Mike Murdoch tells when a man gave him a customized $100,000 BMW. I don't know any stupid poor people with that kind of money to throw away.

There are people who think Kenneth Haney lives like royalty. It's all in the mind. I find the people who do the most fussing have no dog in the fight. It's just an excuse to pacify their mediocrity.
That's absurd. You don't see people here having this discussion about Murdock, Gates, Turner or others. If you were right that would be happening. It's about people who are supposed to be called to serve and HOW they are getting their wealth.

BTW we mention the poor and middle class because MOST of the giving comes from them. There are more poor and middle class people than there are any other class

[RevDWW]

Is driving a $100,000 BMW letting your moderation be know to all men?
Is moderation contingent on how the rest of the flock lives?
Is it being humble living in a multi-million dollar mansion?

[Praxeas]

Who said they were poor? Peter and his brother were in the family business.
Mat 4:18 While walking by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon (who is called Peter) and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea, for they were fishermen.
Mat 4:19 And he said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."
Mat 4:20 Immediately they left their nets and followed him.
at 4:21 And going on from there he saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets, and he called them.
Mat 4:22 Immediately they left the boat and their father and followed him.

2Co 6:4 but as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: by great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities,
2Co 6:5 beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, sleepless nights, hunger;
2Co 6:6 by purity, knowledge, patience, kindness, the Holy Spirit, genuine love;
2Co 6:7 by truthful speech, and the power of God; with the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and for the left;
2Co 6:8 through honor and dishonor, through slander and praise. We are treated as impostors, and yet are true;
2Co 6:9 as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and behold, we live; as punished, and yet not killed;
2Co 6:10 as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, yet possessing everything.

Jas 2:5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?
Jas 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?

Being a business man, BTW, does not make someone wealthy, but according to Paul they were poor. Kinda hard to run a business from prison or while people are seeking your life
Paul came from an influential family.

Paul was a tent maker and he worked for a living while preaching, not taking money from the churches.

Barabas had a lot of money. Do you mean Barnabas? All the bible says is he sold a field that belonged to him and gave the total price to the Apostles to be distributed to those that had need. He did not fleece the flock for those funds nor use it to build himself a mansion

Lydia sold purple clothing.
And? She sold purple clothing. Good for her. She was not an Apostle or a preacher NOR did she preach a false gospel of prosperity in order to get her gains, give some of it away then act like that was her good deed. Nor does it show Paul convincing her to donate to his ministry so he can go buy expensive items for himself on the pretense that this can be the only way she can receive a blessing or that if she was greedy and wanted more riches to donate a grand and receive it back 100 fold.

Paul acknowledges rich people in his writings.
So? The topic here is not about rich people but about rich TV preachers who get their wealth by convincing others it's God's will for them to give to the Ministry as a wealth building scheme. Good grief! Wow...

Just admit your jealous. When you give 60% of your income back into the kingdom of God. Then you can tell me how to spend my 40%.
I don't give a hoot what you do with your money. However if you are a false prophet preaching that false properity doctrine for the sole purpose of getting fat rich off of believers then...wow Me thinketh thou protesteth too much. Are you? Is that why you are so full of hate and rage here TV? Did we hit a sore spot? You gonna flip me off now with that one finger you mentioned earlier?

Here's something you should have learned in economics. That $6 million house the preacher lives in was built by a carpenter who put food on his table and maybe a beer or two in his belly.
Oh good excuse. Preach a false gospel meant to fatten the preachers wallet and say it's good for the economy because some beer bellied family man had to have built that mansion at one time or another. Sad

The jet the preacher flies in to get to speaking engagements was built by a union worker trying to earn a living. The plane is flown by a pilot who is getting PAID to fly the plane. Trckle down economics is biblical.
Good grief. SO that is what false prophets call the false prosperity gospel now adays? Trickle Down economics? pathetic

Obviously no one noticed Jesus selected businessmen as his disciples.
maybe you did not notice but they LEFT their business and suffered for the cause of Christ being persecuted, throne in to jail and finally put to death.

Although that's not the only reason they were selected, but a good business man makes a good preacher, especially on the adminstration side.
And yet the one handling the money was a thief! Just like these false gospel prosperity preachers getting fat wealthy, turning God's church into a personal money making business giving it away to other family members

[Praxeas]

Another false assumption is every penny a tv evangelist makes comes from donations...
I never made that assumption. MOST of what they make came from contributors enough so they could use the money for other money making investments.

At least Joel Osteen had enough character to reject money from the church to pay for the renovations because he was making enough money from his books. Do your TV hero's do that ?

[berkeley]

Is driving a $100,000 BMW letting your moderation be know to all men?
Is moderation contingent on how the rest of the flock lives?
Is it being humble living in a multi-million dollar mansion?

Hey, I looove the 80k model... but really it's just a status symbol. You can get a beautiful high-end 3 series!!

[Praxeas]

Hey, I looove the 80k model... but really it's just a status symbol. You can get a beautiful high-end 3 series!!
The first biblical model was they sold possessions and gave to the Aostles to be distributed to those that had need.

In today's model that money lines the pockets of the Preachers.

[berkeley]

The first biblical model was they sold possessions and gave to the Aostles to be distributed to those that had need.

In today's model that money lines the pockets of the Preachers.

Player Hater

[RevDWW]

The first biblical model was they sold possessions and gave to the Aostles to be distributed to those that had need.

In today's model that money lines the pockets of the Preachers.

Come on now, didn't you read about Peter's crib and James' shark skins suits and rolex watches in the book of Acts? Or maybe Philip's jet that flew him to meet the eunuch?

[RevDWW]

Player Hater
shouldn't that be:
Playa hatea Yo? :ursofunny

[tv1a]

We all know it takes money to spread the gospel. Why do you think Jesus chose businessmen instead of priests? There are some biblical promises which have financial blessings attached to them. Like it or not they are there and the principles work. If you are so offended at the $6 million mansion on earth, may I suggest you turn in your keys to the mansion in the sky? It possible streets of gold are a bit too much for a person with a pauper's mentality. The Bible says we are going to blessed in THIS Life and in the life to come.

With that said, there are preachers who take advantage of others. However, it is not fair to lump all of the preachers into the same boat. A little more research proves they are living off the overflow of their investment in God's kingdom.


That's absurd. You don't see people here having this discussion about Murdock, Gates, Turner or others. If you were right that would be happening. It's about people who are supposed to be called to serve and HOW they are getting their wealth.

BTW we mention the poor and middle class because MOST of the giving comes from them. There are more poor and middle class people than there are any other class

[tv1a]

The first model was optional. And it was not suggested they lived in poverty. Again someone needs to do some research on how much money was in the Acts church. Peter wasn't poor by any strech of the imagination. He had a nice pad in Joppa.

Count the percentage of your income you use for those in need and compare that to these preachers. The day you spend millions in God's kingdom then maybe you have room to tell people how they should live in the overflow. If you are so offended that poor and middle class people are giving their money to these televangelist, give them their money back when they drop a nickle in the offereing plate. I know it is different when it is all going to you. But blast God when someone else gets a share. That's the real issue.

The first biblical model was they sold possessions and gave to the Aostles to be distributed to those that had need.

In today's model that money lines the pockets of the Preachers.

[Jason B]

Peter wasn't poor by any strech of the imagination. He had a nice pad in Joppa.

Count the percentage of your income you use for those in need and compare that to these preachers. The day you spend millions in God's kingdom then maybe you have room to tell people how they should live in the overflow. If you are so offended that poor and middle class people are giving their money to these televangelist, give them their money back when they drop a nickle in the offereing plate. I know it is different when it is all going to you. But blast God when someone else gets a share. That's the real issue.

Scripture please, I can only remember Peter staying with Simon the tanner in Joppa, why would you room with someone if it was your hometown and you had "a nice pad"?

Thats it TV1 me and prax are MAD, MAD, MAD! We had already figured out we were going to fleece the flock with 2 minute miracle blessings, $1000 seeds on credit cards, use our luxurious life as a carrot on a stick for all of our followers to hope for, and turn it into an internet pyrmaid scheme, but these dudes beat us to it. So now you know, paint us jealous.

For the record, I am in ministry,just started 2 months ago, and if I am ever blessed in such manner, that money is going to pay peoples electric bills, buy food for those who can't, pay a car payment of house payment for those in the church who struggle, invest it into the community, into world mission, and in church outreach. Not to my lifestyle, and hopefully not even into having a fancy building or state of the art equipment (so long as we have the basics, just give me a building with A/C and a couple of microphones that work-we don't need $800,000 sound systems). Anyway God is my witness, Lord, help me that this be so. I don't want money to corrupt me, which really is what seems to be what happened to these people. They probably started off innocent enough-I don't know, I do know that somewhere along the line they lost their way. Then again they all trace back to "DAD" Hagin, so who knows if they even started off right?

Anyway, keep rambling TV, each post gets more ridiculous, and not to mention that your posts are so full of scripture and new testament examples, they are hard to even refute. (Whoops, did I say that out loud, oh no, I typed it.):snapout

[Praxeas]

We all know it takes money to spread the gospel.
Is that supposed to be justification for pastors getting fat wealthy by preaching the prosperity gospel? BTW Living in expensive gated communities with a 10 bedroom house has nothing to do with spreading the gospel nor expensive cars nor private jets and run ways....It's actually excess as it costs more money to maintain all that than to just fly coach.

Why do you think Jesus chose businessmen instead of priests?
There is not a shred of evidence in the bible that Jesus made a conscious decision to chose business men over priests. He chose fishermen.

There are some biblical promises which have financial blessings attached to them. Like it or not they are there and the principles work.
There is NO biblical principle of giving to get gain. That is not charity. That is selfishness. There is no biblical principle that if you give 100 God will return it to you 1000 fold. There is no biblical principle or example in the bible where people are promised "if you give to THIS ministry" 1000 dollars God will give it to you back twice as much. Giving and Recieving is so much more than money based and it is about GIVING not receiving.

And there is NO bible on preaching such a thing and the preacher getting fat rich on it. They gave to help the poor. They gave to help someone hear the word. They never gave so someone can go buy a large plot of land and build himself a huge mansion on it. Yes there are certain principles in the bible, no the real principles are NOT even in view in this case

Again we have a bible model where they sold their property and laid the money down at the Apostles feet to be distributed to those with needs...not one shred of evidence that they skimmed some off the top so they can live opulent live styles above most of their followers

If you are so offended at the $6 million mansion on earth, may I suggest you turn in your keys to the mansion in the sky?
Im not offended at all. I don't donate to their pocket books. I think the prosperity doctrine is wrong. If you got a problem with that and want to flip me off because I have an opinion that's your problem. Guess what? That means I can and will state my opinion though too and I will. I stated my opinion on the magic hair doctrine too, does that make me offended that someone waves her hair hoping it will attract angels? OF course not.

It possible streets of gold are a bit too much for a person with a pauper's mentality. The Bible says we are going to blessed in THIS Life and in the life to come.
I have a heaven bound mentality. If you want to cheat christian believers out of their savings to build your own earthly kingdom based on a false demonic gospel, that is your business. Yo can call me every nasty name in the book, flip me off or tell me I have this or that mentality just because I am not foolish enough to donate my money to your pocket...I don't really care TV. Give em the finger!

With that said, there are preachers who take advantage of others.
We are talking about people who get their wealthy status by preaching a false doctrine and using the church as a business for personal gain. If you are for that that is your right to believe. I do not.

However, it is not fair to lump all of the preachers into the same boat. A little more research proves they are living off the overflow of their investment in God's kingdom
Where in the bible does it say God's kingom is for earthly investments for wealth? The bible says our kingdom or wealth should be in heaven. That is where we are to store our treasures. Most of these preachers got rich through donated monies and then got RICHER by investing them in other areas

Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money."
Luk 16:14 The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him.
Luk 16:15 And he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
money.

1Ti 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
1Ti 3:3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

1Ti 6:5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.
1Ti 6:6 Now there is great gain in godliness with contentment,
1Ti 6:7 for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world.
1Ti 6:8 But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content.
1Ti 6:9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.
1Ti 6:11 But as for you, O man of God, flee these things. Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness.

2Ti 3:1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty.
2Ti 3:2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,

Heb 13:5 Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

The Apostles were not materialistically wealthy. The bible says they left all, they were poor. They probably had enough to live by but they were not getting fat rich off of the gospel by telling saints to give give give. Paul took nothing but he did take an offering for the poor saints in Jerusalem

[Praxeas]

The first model was optional. And it was not suggested they lived in poverty. Again someone needs to do some research on how much money was in the Acts church. Peter wasn't poor by any strech of the imagination. He had a nice pad in Joppa.

The first model shows them giving money without the Apostles skimming off the top for their own personal gain.

lol....Peter was living in someone elses pad TV!
Act 10:5 And now send men to Joppa and bring one Simon who is called Peter.
Act 10:6 He is lodging with one Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea."

What website are you getting this from? Peter left his business. He left everything. They all did. Paul said they were poor.

Count the percentage of your income you use for those in need and compare that to these preachers. The day you spend millions in God's kingdom then maybe you have room to tell people how they should live in the overflow.
TV you sould like you are a student of these charletons with your "Overflow" terms.

If you are so offended that poor and middle class people are giving their money to these televangelist, give them their money back when they drop a nickle in the offereing plate. I know it is different when it is all going to you.
why would any of their money be going to me? You won't see me on TV peddling a false doctrine to line my pockets and build me a private airport, good grief

But blast God when someone else gets a share. That's the real issue.
So you think every wealthy personis that way because God blessed them because they were good little Christians? So Christians in Sudan and China are dirt poor because they don't believe this prosperty gospel and donat their last cup of rice to the likes of Creflo and Copeland?

[tv1a]

I rest my case... Rich man donating to the ministry. As I said, Nice pad for Peter. Again if you have a problem with poor people giving to the tv preachers, I'd suggest you refund their money when poor people give at your church.

I noticed people sidestep when I bring up TD Jakes, who made his money by sucessful real estate. Randy and Paula White were successful investors. Both examples lived in extreme poverty. They discovered Biblical principles, applied them to their lives and became wealthy. God's promises are there. But we are too concerned with ........ like dress codes, and hair length. Forget about the rest of the Bible.

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

I have provided evidence which is supported by scripture. Peter was a business man. He was part of the family fishing business.

Scripture please, I can only remember Peter staying with Simon the tanner in Joppa, why would you room with someone if it was your hometown and you had "a nice pad"?

Thats it TV1 me and prax are MAD, MAD, MAD! We had already figured out we were going to fleece the flock with 2 minute miracle blessings, $1000 seeds on credit cards, use our luxurious life as a carrot on a stick for all of our followers to hope for, and turn it into an internet pyrmaid scheme, but these dudes beat us to it. So now you know, paint us jealous.

For the record, I am in ministry,just started 2 months ago, and if I am ever blessed in such manner, that money is going to pay peoples electric bills, buy food for those who can't, pay a car payment of house payment for those in the church who struggle, invest it into the community, into world mission, and in church outreach. Not to my lifestyle, and hopefully not even into having a fancy building or state of the art equipment (so long as we have the basics, just give me a building with A/C and a couple of microphones that work-we don't need $800,000 sound systems). Anyway God is my witness, Lord, help me that this be so. I don't want money to corrupt me, which really is what seems to be what happened to these people. They probably started off innocent enough-I don't know, I do know that somewhere along the line they lost their way. Then again they all trace back to "DAD" Hagin, so who knows if they even started off right?

Anyway, keep rambling TV, each post gets more ridiculous, and not to mention that your posts are so full of scripture and new testament examples, they are hard to even refute. (Whoops, did I say that out loud, oh no, I typed it.):snapout

[tv1a]

...
There is not a shred of evidence in the bible that Jesus made a conscious decision to chose business men over priests. He chose fishermen.
tv: Fisherman by trade, but business oweners nevertheless.....
There is NO biblical principle of giving to get gain. That is not charity. That is selfishness. There is no biblical principle that if you give 100 God will return it to you 1000 fold. There is no biblical principle or example in the bible where people are promised "if you give to THIS ministry" 1000 dollars God will give it to you back twice as much. Giving and Recieving is so much more than money based and it is about GIVING not receiving.

tv: You distort the "prosperity" message. I suggest you shut down UPCI General Conference or any type of oraganizational fund raiser. God established principles for abundant blessings. It works. Here's a novel idea. You can't give what you can't have. If God blesses, than you have something to give.


And there is NO bible on preaching such a thing and the preacher getting fat rich on it. They gave to help the poor. They gave to help someone hear the word. They never gave so someone can go buy a large plot of land and build himself a huge mansion on it. Yes there are certain principles in the bible, no the real principles are NOT even in view in this case
tv: These people help the poor. They spend millions. They set up foundations. They work the inner cities. They donate to religious causes outside of their own ministry. Rich people do that you know.

Again we have a bible model where they sold their property and laid the money down at the Apostles feet to be distributed to those with needs...not one shred of evidence that they skimmed some off the top so they can live opulent live styles above most of their followers
tv: Again your model is optional. Did not Peter tell annaias and sapphira it was their money, their land, they could do with it what they wanted? What you call a Bible model, was an option, not a requirement.

I have a heaven bound mentality. If you want to cheat christian believers out of their savings to build your own earthly kingdom based on a false demonic gospel, that is your business. Yo can call me every nasty name in the book, flip me off or tell me I have this or that mentality just because I am not foolish enough to donate my money to your pocket...I don't really care TV. Give em the finger!


We are talking about people who get their wealthy status by preaching a false doctrine and using the church as a business for personal gain. If you are for that that is your right to believe. I do not.

tv: Judging by your comments about the prosperity message, you haven't done enough research on the topic. If I didn't do due diligence, I would have thought the same thing.

Where in the bible does it say God's kingom is for earthly investments for wealth? The bible says our kingdom or wealth should be in heaven. That is where we are to store our treasures. Most of these preachers got rich through donated monies and then got RICHER by investing them in other areas
]tv: It is not a sin to be rich. They have their set of temptations just like poor people do. Where the poor is tempted to kill, steal, the rich may be tempted to use unscripuolous business tactics. But that doesn't mean being rich or wanting to be rich is a sin.[/[/B]QUOTE]

The Apostles were not materialistically wealthy. The bible says they left all, they were poor. They probably had enough to live by but they were not getting fat rich off of the gospel by telling saints to give give give. Paul took nothing but he did take an offering for the poor saints in Jerusalem.
[quote] tv: Paul was a tentmaker. Another business man.

[Praxeas]

I rest my case... Rich man donating to the ministry. As I said, Nice pad for Peter. Again if you have a problem with poor people giving to the tv preachers, I'd suggest you refund their money when poor people give at your church.
It does not say a rich man donated. It does not say he was rich. It does not say it was a nice pad. This was Israel under Roman rule. They were taxed hard too. Second, it was not a pad FOR Peter. The man let Peter stay there... So Peter was living in a room in someone elses house.

Wow...that is so far removed from your hero's who fleece the flock by preaching a false greed based doctrine and purchase themselves mansions and expensive cars. You just keep trying...or maybe you really should just rest your case because you are really just trying to twist things that don't support your view.

First you tried to make it seem the Apostles like Peter were wealthy because they had their own business. Let alone the fact that having a small boat and a net does not make someone wealthy. Many people are business people and run their own businesses and they make enough just to get by, not the extreme wealth of your TV heros. But after I pointed out they LEFT all you abandoned that angle to try a new one. You argued Jesus chose them because they were business men. No the bible never says that is why he chose them but even so that does not make them fat wealthy NOR does it justify fleecing the flock in order to get that fat rich.

I noticed people sidestep when I bring up TD Jakes, who made his money by sucessful real estate.
I never saw you bring him up...lol. So let me ask you, where did he get the money to buy real estate? And honestly, that's fine. If he is making his money from real estate and not taking money from the flock and telling them if they want to get rich too they need to donate then great! That should mean they have a LOT of money to spread around to charities of feeding the poor, housing, clothing etc etc...I hope they start with the members of their own church who are giving yet have to ride a bus to church all the time. I have no problem with that.

Randy and Paula White were successful investors. Both examples lived in extreme poverty. They discovered Biblical principles, applied them to their lives and became wealthy. God's promises are there. But we are too concerned with ........ like dress codes, and hair length. Forget about the rest of the Bible.
Im not concerned with dress codes or hair length, lol man you are really batting .000 As for the whites....their wealth could not save their marriage I see. I pity those that trust in riches. How did they get their wealth? Bible principles? You mean like starting a church and preaching a "you get rich as I get rich as you give me your money" message? Im sure they took some of that money and invested it TV. COme on.

If I was them and I had people showing me with money I'd invest it too and get richer if what I really cared about was wealth. That proves nothing. Are you as rich as they are? Since you say the promises are there...you are either as rich as they are if we followed your logic or you don't really believe this tripe you are putting down or this is all false doctrine based on greed.

Does God want to bless us? Sure but where in the bible does it say His purpose is to be wealthy in material goods? The bible speaks of NEED. Jesus gave them what they needed. He gave them fish and bread, not gold and silver. How rich was Peter btw when he can say "silver and gold have I none" he had what mattered most. TV there are TONS of scriptures and so far your attempt at scripture to prove the Apostles were wealth failed miserably. They brought their goods to the Apostles. The apostles did not skim the proceeds and give some away. It was all for the sole purpose of helping others in need. The ministers of God in the bible did not minister for gain, They were servants! In today's church they are no longer servants, they are kings often taxing their servants.

TV like Peter, they lived off the gospel, but you said you rested your case on a verse that has Peter living with someone else in someone elses home. Today's TV preachers aren't living in a room in someone else's home. They are not renting a home. They don't own modest homes. They own expensive mansion like homes. That is a HUGE HUGE disconnect there TV and you said you rest your case?

Paul said the minister is to live off the gospel, not get RICH off the gospel.
1Co 9:14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.
1Co 9:15 But I have made no use of any of these rights, nor am I writing these things to secure any such provision. For I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of my ground for boasting.
1Co 9:16 For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!
1Co 9:17 For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward, but not of my own will, I am still entrusted with a stewardship.
1Co 9:18 What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.
1Co 9:19 For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.

Look at Paul's attitude. How many of your Televangelists that you admire have that kind of attitude?

This attitude is so foreign to today's churches
Gal 1:10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Who is approved? We know they are approved by the numbers that watch their shows or that donate to them or go to their churches. It's no different than Nielsen ratings and TV shows. It's all about ratings. It's all about money. Like I said, you can call me any name you want. You can attribute lies to my motives. You can even give me the finger. That does not change or make my points wrong.

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.
I don't even hate you though you want to give me the finger. It's my opinion on the word. It's my opinion on what is happening in America. It does not make me a hater of any body.

I have provided evidence which is supported by scripture. Peter was a business man. He was part of the family fishing business.
You totally TOTALLY ignored all the scriptures I posted that addressed that. Peter LEFT his business. He LEFT EVERYTHING

Nobody Denied Peter was a fisherman. Nobody said Peter was not a business man, lol. The problem is your argument says this means he was wealthy. Yet you ignore the fact that he LEFT this "business". You FAILED to show that his having a boat and a net made him wealthy. TV these were not the kind of businessmen you are thinking of. They did not have degrees. They went to markets and bartered like everyone else did. Many people in that time were business people. You HAD to be a business person to survive. Go to some middle eastern areas where they still have open markets with people selling their wares and tell me how wealthy they are.

The Apostles left all. Peter had NO silver or gold, neither did John. Peter had to live in someone else's home. TV first you claimed it was Peter's pad and when I showed that it was someone elses you still cling to your idea by trying a new spin.

[Praxeas]

...
There is not a shred of evidence in the bible that Jesus made a conscious decision to chose business men over priests. He chose fishermen.
tv: Fisherman by trade, but business oweners nevertheless..... Prax:Nobody denies they were fishermen or business owners, that does not make them wealthy NOR does that prove your assertion that Jesus chose them BECAUSE they were businessmenThere is NO biblical principle of giving to get gain. That is not charity. That is selfishness. There is no biblical principle that if you give 100 God will return it to you 1000 fold. There is no biblical principle or example in the bible where people are promised "if you give to THIS ministry" 1000 dollars God will give it to you back twice as much. Giving and Recieving is so much more than money based and it is about GIVING not receiving.

tv: You distort the "prosperity" message. I suggest you shut down UPCI General Conference or any type of oraganizational fund raiser. God established principles for abundant blessings. It works. Here's a novel idea. You can't give what you can't have. If God blesses, than you have something to give.
Prax:No, Im accurately portraying it. In fact I am being kind. I could go into the numerology I see on TBN they use in order to raise funds. This is NOT about fund raising either and you know that. It's about who gets FAT RICH OFF of those fundsAnd there is NO bible on preaching such a thing and the preacher getting fat rich on it. They gave to help the poor. They gave to help someone hear the word. They never gave so someone can go buy a large plot of land and build himself a huge mansion on it. Yes there are certain principles in the bible, no the real principles are NOT even in view in this case

tv: These people help the poor. They spend millions. They set up foundations. They work the inner cities. They donate to religious causes outside of their own ministry. Rich people do that you know. Prax:I never said they don't. Im saying they also LINE THEIR OWN POCKETS which is a HUGE disconnect from what we see in scriptures. However TV you'd be hard pressed to prove they are doing that with THEIR OWN money and not rather with the churchesAgain we have a bible model where they sold their property and laid the money down at the Apostles feet to be distributed to those with needs...not one shred of evidence that they skimmed some off the top so they can live opulent live styles above most of their followers

tv: Again your model is optional. Did not Peter tell annaias and sapphira it was their money, their land, they could do with it what they wanted? What you call a Bible model, was an option, not a requirement. Prax: That it is OPTIONAL does not prove anything to the point. This biblical model has the givers giving and the Apostles using it for others, NOT taking some for themselves. The point here is about the Apostles
I have a heaven bound mentality. If you want to cheat christian believers out of their savings to build your own earthly kingdom based on a false demonic gospel, that is your business. Yo can call me every nasty name in the book, flip me off or tell me I have this or that mentality just because I am not foolish enough to donate my money to your pocket...I don't really care TV. Give em the finger!


We are talking about people who get their wealthy status by preaching a false doctrine and using the church as a business for personal gain. If you are for that that is your right to believe. I do not.

tv: Judging by your comments about the prosperity message, you haven't done enough research on the topic. If I didn't do due diligence, I would have thought the same thing. Prax: Judging by your comments you apparently have blindly bought into the greed and hype that these people peddle.Where in the bible does it say God's kingom is for earthly investments for wealth? The bible says our kingdom or wealth should be in heaven. That is where we are to store our treasures. Most of these preachers got rich through donated monies and then got RICHER by investing them in other areas

]tv: It is not a sin to be rich. They have their set of temptations just like poor people do. Where the poor is tempted to kill, steal, the rich may be tempted to use unscripuolous business tactics. But that doesn't mean being rich or wanting to be rich is a sin.[/[/B]QUOTE]
[quote]Prax: Red herring. We are not discussing if it is a sin to be rich. You keep trying to change the issueThe Apostles were not materialistically wealthy. The bible says they left all, they were poor. They probably had enough to live by but they were not getting fat rich off of the gospel by telling saints to give give give. Paul took nothing but he did take an offering for the poor saints in Jerusalem.

tv: Paul was a tentmaker. Another business man.
Prax: Paul was a tent maker.... How does that make him wealthy? Remember we aren't discussing if someone was a business man. MOST people back then ran their own businesses. That did not make them wealthy. It did not mean they had MBAs either. Study Paul. He spent most of this time being persecuted, stoned, jailed, on the run. That means he did not have his own building to run his "business". He could do it when he was able. That though did not make him wealthy. That is a HUGE HUGE disconnect from the idea you keep moving away from of FLEECING the flock and getting rich and preaching a greed based doctrine to do it. Show me where the Apostles did that! You can't and have not . All you keep doing is asserting irrelevant stuff about businessmen. That does not prove they preached a message to teh saints that made them lavish funds on them and they got rich. Paul said they were poor, persecuted, beaten, imprisoned. Peter was rich? He was living in someone elses home. He was physically persecuted. In Jerusalem the believers were all POOR for some reason...I can guess why. They were persecuted by the majority Jews. The Jews probably shunned them, did not trade with them. That is why other churches supported them

[Jason B]

I rest my case...
.


thank goodness you are not my attorney

[crakjak]

I wonder if there is a single major national ministry that takes in millions where the leaders have not succumbed to the lure of the money in the sense that they justify a huge income and lifestyle based on comparing the offering totals to a secular corporate entity's income.

It would be nice to see one of these outfits have leaders who settle for just a very nice house and upper middle class lifestyle vs mansions, jets, etc.

I rememer reading where Richard Roberts used the ministries jet for his daughter to take her girlfriends on a graduation trip or something like that to the Bahammas or somewhere.

I don't begrudge a minister a decent lifestyle but living extravagently off of offerings people give for God's work is ridiculous no matter what Sandra and the prosperity preachers say.

Try Rick Warren, still lives in the same house, takes no salary, gave all the church had every paid him back after his book, "The Purpose Filled Life". Now focusing on the major social ills of the world. OH, Yeah I forgot he is not a televangelist, but sure is on TV a lot.

How about James and Betty Robison?

There are probably more, I just don't follow them, and I will let God raise the up and bring them down as He sees appropriate, I would mess it up.

Read "The Shack" for better understanding.

[AbundantGrace]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25865017/

What's wrong with a minister prospering from the fruits of his labor? People don't have a problem with their lawyer and doctor prospering. People don't have a problem with anyone prospering... But keep the preacher on a financial string and living in a shack. :snapout I didn't even read the link, but the very premise of the thread got my attention. I'm glad when I see someone properly prospering in ministry. I believe God blesses His workers.

[Jason B]

What's wrong with a minister prospering from the fruits of his labor? People don't have a problem with their lawyer and doctor prospering. People don't have a problem with anyone prospering... But keep the preacher on a financial string and living in a shack. :snapout I didn't even read the link, but the very premise of the thread got my attention. I'm glad when I see someone properly prospering in ministry. I believe God blesses His workers.

Pastor Robbie,
I asume that you did not even read the thread, but simply posted.
There is something majorly wrong when the minister lives out lifestyles of the rich and famous, while 95%of the people giving moeny to the man are poor to middle class at best.

People are not looking to a lawyer or a doctor for spiritual guideance and example, to be the very Ambassorador of Christ, and an epistle that is read by all men.

When someone enters ministry (they should) basically submit themself to the life of a servant, not a lord.
Bother, no one is saying a preacher can't be blessed, your shack statement is ridiculous, read the thread, no one is trying to have a pastor on food stamps.

There is nothing wrong with a pastor having a nice house a nice car and quality things, nor has one single person on here argued against that. But what we have an issue with is lording it over God's people, taking innocent (& stupid) peoples money, while they scrape by.

I am sickened when an apostolic minister condones the methods and message of modern day PROFITS kenneth copeland, benny hinn, mike murdock and others TV evangelists.

I don't know your personal thoughts Pastor Robbie, perhaps you were not condoning such things as kenneth copeland does,my statements are made as a generalization. However, I do stand by my statements regardless of any ones position.

[Sherri]

Ridiculous is living in a 6 million dollar home, and living a life of luxury, while the people under you are hurting. Ridiculous is having the ability to do so much more for others, but instead you live the easy life. Give me a break, Copeland needs to re-read Jeremiah.We really have no way of knowing how much the Copelands do for others, do we? Just because you know one situation doesn't mean that they don't help thousands of others. There are always two sides to every story.

I'm not a huge fan of the Copeland's, but I can't judge them and their finances. That's between them and God. It does seem that He has abundantly blessed them, and there's nothing wrong with men of God prospering if they are also givers.

[Jason B]

please see post #96,#110, #119,#120

If you support a minister living in such way, give me scripture, especially new testament scripture. Really, you would have a hard time giving old testament scripture, since priests weren't even allowed to own land.

I stand by my posistion.

[Jason B]

Thread BUMP for Atlanta Bishop

[Jason B]

from another thread:

Of course you do, you support all the TBN profits and their get rich quick schemes. Kennteh Copeland and the likes.,,,,not to mention Creflo DOLLAR

You are a liar!

Go ahead and prove that I "support" any or all of these. You just flat out lied and for what reason?
For a "Bishop" you are sure quick to condemn someone as a liar. Kind of like when you told me to "shut my stupid mouth".
to your credit, you did edit the post about shutting my stupid mouth, though I would expect a "man of the cloth" to be a little more careful with lashing out at people and accusations.


People can read, let them decide if I am a liar.

[Jason B]

OK - Jason - whom I disagree with...I apologize for calling you a liar. I will say that you don't have a clue what you are talking about but if you want to make false accusations and then claim to "have the TRUTH" have at it. I will also say that you did not tell the truth.

Apology accepted. At the very least I misunderstand your posistion on these guys, from what I read you definetly seem to support, or at least favor them, if you prefer that wording. Anyhow in the future, please do be slow with accusations. If you post on a forum with people who are saints, sinners, laity and ministry, and chhose "Bishop" as your screen name, people expect you to personify that title. I have asked "Evangalist" Benicasa to live up to his title also.

I personally think it looks petty, and downright bad when preachers get on here and start insulting people.

[Jason B]

so tv1a at what point does it become okay to live like a king? I would think in the very least not until the FAITHFUL people of the congregation at least have neceessities. Or tell them they don't have to keep tithing to copeland while their families go without the basics. Plus, its not hard to give alot, when you take so much in. big deal if he hs given money, often times these charismatics preachers give money to each other, just pasing the wealth around. Mike Murdock was telling a story how that a preacher friend of his gave him a million dollars, and he got some rare car, that was one of only 10 made, blah, blah, blah. Then He told the people that he needed 1000 people to send him $1,000, and that every time "God blesses me, He will bless you. If God gives me a rolex, He will give you a rolex." (why don't we have a PUKE smiley?)

Anyway Mike Murdock's church is in Haltom City (which I drive by on my way back from Arlington on sunday mornings) and the people leaving his church are driving clunkers, windows down (NO A/C) its 105 degrees outside. and this guy is living out in Argyle in a mansions, he literally has exoctic animals as pets, lions, tigers, I can't remember what, all kinds of cars, the list goes on and on. This makes me sick, I don't understand how anyone can sit here and think that ANY preacher is entitled to live like this. I don't care how much they give, or how great a preacher, no PREACHER should live like this in this present life. I'm not against a precher being blessed or having nice thing, My former pastor had a nice home, new cars, a pool ,and a nice RV. I got no problem with that, I have a problem with houses that cost more than large churches, and more than you can buy an entire grocery store for, and private jets, and exotic animals, and vacations homes, etc. Where are you pukey smiley, because i am sick.

I was googling some stuff on Mike Murdock and AFF came up. I read this long lost post.

:D classic post.

[riverslivnwtr]

But, the Church is not a corporation. It is the church, period. All that money is wasted!
Wasted Where??? :laffatu

you wanted that money didn't you?? tell the truth I won't tell ..:smack

[houston]

If I am a preacher and I am giving 40-80 percent of my income back into the kingdom of God, I'd salute the naysayers with one finger as I bask in the blessings of the Lord.


Bwahahaha

[Dagwood]

Maybe Copeland has a good heart and good intentions (not to sound corny). I've never met the dude or been part of his congregation. However, he has been in the news within the last year or so for the very reason that he has a private jet and lives such a luxurious lifestyle. Whatever the outcome will be, I don't know. I haven't seen anything else. I will say, though, that whoever might be familiar with Doyle Wilson in Plano (Water of Life Church, broadcast on one of the local access channels), Copeland reminds me an awful lot of Doyle in looks and personality. I don't watch Doyle's services, except on rare occasion just for the disbelief of what I've heard and researched on him. Anyway, Copeland's empire will either continue as-is or won't. We don't know; God only knows regardless of what the news reports and how...

[riverslivnwtr]

Maybe Copeland has a good heart and good intentions (not to sound corny). I've never met the dude or been part of his congregation. However, he has been in the news within the last year or so for the very reason that he has a private jet and lives such a luxurious lifestyle. Whatever the outcome will be, I don't know. I haven't seen anything else. I will say, though, that whoever might be familiar with Doyle Wilson in Plano (Water of Life Church, broadcast on one of the local access channels), Copeland reminds me an awful lot of Doyle in looks and personality. I don't watch Doyle's services, except on rare occasion just for the disbelief of what I've heard and researched on him. Anyway, Copeland's empire will either continue as-is or won't. We don't know; God only knows regardless of what the news reports and how...


I will say this about Bro. Copeland; he is practicing what he preaches..and I have never heard now will I believe that he will ever speak a word against any brother in Christ..nor against any enemies of the Body of Christ...every word is tempered with mercy to them who are enemies...which is easy to be that way when you are so successful at what you do I suppose....I've been to at least four of his conventions throughout the 80's....

He's probably relishing this event in his life as a challenge from the devil, a test, and an opportunity for his teachings to get a broader audience...

I have learned from my relationship with his and other ministries like his to absolutely rely on the power of God..To use the promises of God enforce my will in the earth through faith, by the gospel...The Word of God has forged in me a hardened soldier in Christ....:happydance

[Jason B]

I will say this about Bro. Copeland; he is practicing what he preaches..and I have never heard now will I believe that he will ever speak a word against any brother in Christ..nor against any enemies of the Body of Christ...every word is tempered with mercy to them who are enemies...which is easy to be that way when you are so successful at what you do I suppose....I've been to at least four of his conventions throughout the 80's....

He's probably relishing this event in his life as a challenge from the devil, a test, and an opportunity for his teachings to get a broader audience...

I have learned from my relationship with his and other ministries like his to absolutely rely on the power of God..To use the promises of God enforce my will in the earth through faith, by the gospel...The Word of God has forged in me a hardened soldier in Christ....:happydance

Heresy and you've been duped. Claiming you can "..enfore my will in the earth..." Just like that false "power of the spoken word" heresy.