Interesting Article on Joel Osteen

[TRFrance]

Interesting article on Megachuch Pastor Joel Osteen.

Too bad this guy isn't Apostolic. But I find him to be a pretty interesting guy nonetheless.

From Portfolio Magazine Online:

by Karl Taro Greenfeld (http://www.portfolio.com/contributors/Karl-Taro-Greenfeld) http://www.portfolio.com/images/site/gfx/accent-dotted-pipe.gif August 2008 Issue

Joel Osteen preaches the virtues of prosperity—for himself as well as his congregation. A look at the man who may well be one of the biggest beneficiaries of the slumping economy.

Who will save us? Who will lift us up from crushing credit-card debt and resetting mortgage payments and impending foreclosure, from increasing gas prices and decreasing health-insurance coverage? We are a nation stumbling through our worst financial crisis in a generation and our worst housing market in a lifetime. And so we come, seeking gentle salvation, inspiring prayers, steadying words, soothing notions, and calming thoughts that will allow us to become, in Joel Osteen’s words, “victors, not victims.” ...

Full article here: http://www.portfolio.com/executives/features/2008/07/16/Megachurch-Preacher-Joel-Osteen?tid=advert/drudge/joel_osteen#page1

[Rhoni]

On Sunday morning I wake up, put on the coffee, and listen to Joel Olsteen. I like his spirit and his attitude. Today he said that he never argues scripture with anyone...he said a man approached him about 2nd dispensationalism, and he wasn't even sure what the man wanted from him except to argue and he just agreed with everything he said. The man just kept bringing other things up trying to get him to argue and he just refused to argue and the man walked away.

He also said: 25% of people will never like you no matter what you do for them, 25% of people don't like you but could be convinced otherwise, 25% like you but could be convinced otherwise, and 25% of people like you and will stand by you no matter what. This is so true. Why worry about convincing anyone when you have that nucleus of good friends who love you no matter what.

Joel Olsteen preaches a good, encouraging, and practical mesage that if we live by we'd be so much happier. This is not taking away for the salvational message we believe...it just adds to it.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Praxeas]

On Sunday morning I wake up, put on the coffee, and listen to Joel Olsteen. I like his spirit and his attitude. Today he said that he never argues scripture with anyone...he said a man approached him about 2nd dispensationalism, and he wasn't even sure what the man wanted from him except to argue and he just agreed with everything he said. The man just kept bringing other things up trying to get him to argue and he just refused to argue and the man walked away.

He also said: 25% of people will never like you no matter what you do for them, 25% of people don't like you but could be convinced otherwise, 25% like you but could be convinced otherwise, and 25% of people like you and will stand by you no matter what. This is so true. Why worry about convincing anyone when you have that nucleus of good friends who love you no matter what.

Joel Olsteen preaches a good, encouraging, and practical mesage that if we live by we'd be so much happier. This is not taking away for the salvational message we believe...it just adds to it.

Blessings, Rhoni
That pretty much sums up Joel Osteen. Yes he teaches encouraging messages to make people happier. However I've never heard him preach a salvation message. You can listen to a lot of postive thinking "speakers" and be happier. In fact you really don't need anyone to do that yourself. It does not mean your life has improved though. It just means you are convincing yourself you should be happy all the time.

One thing Joel did that I really admired was when they were building their new building (renovating it) he refused money from the church so they can spend it on the building and just lived off the proceeds from his books.

My thinking though is if he is getting that much from the books, if it were me, why not just do that and relieve the church to use those funds for other things.

It is an admirable thing. However it does not make someone saved or better. Look at Oprah. She is always giving away stuff and she is fast becoming a false teacher herself.

Anyways, if one finds encouragement in Osteen that's fine, but if he were a man of God then he needs to be more balanced too and preach a saving gospel, preach against sin, preach repentance, preach to his church that while they can be happy they also need to live holy. If he did that I wonder how many of those same people that flocked to his church would still be there? Yes just speculation, I don't know. I don't know why anyone goes there. But if it's just for the positive feel good messages and if that is all Joel preaches obviously they are escaping from churches where they either don't get that or they also get a dose of a reminder of how to live for God. LOL I think Im sounding like a con now

[ReformedDave]

That pretty much sums up Joel Osteen. Yes he teaches encouraging messages to make people happier. However I've never heard him preach a salvation message. You can listen to a lot of postive thinking "speakers" and be happier. In fact you really don't need anyone to do that yourself. It does not mean your life has improved though. It just means you are convincing yourself you should be happy all the time.

One thing Joel did that I really admired was when they were building their new building (renovating it) he refused money from the church so they can spend it on the building and just lived off the proceeds from his books.

My thinking though is if he is getting that much from the books, if it were me, why not just do that and relieve the church to use those funds for other things.

It is an admirable thing. However it does not make someone saved or better. Look at Oprah. She is always giving away stuff and she is fast becoming a false teacher herself.

Anyways, if one finds encouragement in Osteen that's fine, but if he were a man of God then he needs to be more balanced too and preach a saving gospel, preach against sin, preach repentance, preach to his church that while they can be happy they also need to live holy. If he did that I wonder how many of those same people that flocked to his church would still be there? Yes just speculation, I don't know. I don't know why anyone goes there. But if it's just for the positive feel good messages and if that is all Joel preaches obviously they are escaping from churches where they either don't get that or they also get a dose of a reminder of how to live for God. LOL I think Im sounding like a con now

Truthfully there is not much different between Oprah and Osteen...except his hair is better.

[RevBuddy]

On Sunday morning I wake up, put on the coffee, and listen to Joel Olsteen. I like his spirit and his attitude. Today he said that he never argues scripture with anyone...he said a man approached him about 2nd dispensationalism, and he wasn't even sure what the man wanted from him except to argue and he just agreed with everything he said. The man just kept bringing other things up trying to get him to argue and he just refused to argue and the man walked away.

He also said: 25% of people will never like you no matter what you do for them, 25% of people don't like you but could be convinced otherwise, 25% like you but could be convinced otherwise, and 25% of people like you and will stand by you no matter what. This is so true. Why worry about convincing anyone when you have that nucleus of good friends who love you no matter what.

Joel Olsteen preaches a good, encouraging, and practical mesage that if we live by we'd be so much happier. This is not taking away for the salvational message we believe...it just adds to it.

Blessings, Rhoni

These comments are so uninformed as to be comical...Joel Olsteen doesn't preach at all...he is the single clearest example of the all too common, non-scriptural, feel-good speaker...in essence...everybody, let's feel good...everybody let's not say anything troubling...everybody, let's join hands...in corporate happiness while the world goes whirling around without hearing the wonderful good news of Jesus Christ...

...the Olsteen principle is not new...yea, it is ancient...and is defined by the longstanding, humorous adage...a ministry of "see no evil; hear no evil; speak no evil..."

...no power...no anointing...no nothing...

[ReformedDave]

These comments are so uninformed as to be comical...Joel Olsteen doesn't preach at all...he is the single clearest example of the all too common, non-scriptural, feel-good speaker...in essence...everybody, let's feel good...everybody let's not say anything troubling...everybody, let's join hands...in corporate happiness while the world goes whirling around without hearing the wonderful good news of Jesus Christ...

...the Olsteen principle is not new...yea, it is ancient...and is defined by the longstanding, humorous adage...a ministry of "see no evil; hear no evil; speak no evil..."

...no power...no anointing...no nothing...

He wants to make you happy without being right with God.......

[tv1a]

Tv shows are edited. You don't know what is said when the tv cameras go off. I went to one of his meetings in Cleveland. I can attest he brings salvation into the picture. Do you think Osteen has his sermon down to 28 minutes and 30 seconds? Don't think so. He always ends his broadcast with an invitation for salvation. People are responding to the gospel on a regular basis at his church. What we see on tv is just a tip of the iceberg.

By the way he lives in a multi million dollar house. I wonder how many poor mexicans he exploited with a prosperity message to build that house.


That pretty much sums up Joel Osteen. Yes he teaches encouraging messages to make people happier. However I've never heard him preach a salvation message. You can listen to a lot of postive thinking "speakers" and be happier. In fact you really don't need anyone to do that yourself. It does not mean your life has improved though. It just means you are convincing yourself you should be happy all the time.

One thing Joel did that I really admired was when they were building their new building (renovating it) he refused money from the church so they can spend it on the building and just lived off the proceeds from his books.

My thinking though is if he is getting that much from the books, if it were me, why not just do that and relieve the church to use those funds for other things.

It is an admirable thing. However it does not make someone saved or better. Look at Oprah. She is always giving away stuff and she is fast becoming a false teacher herself.

Anyways, if one finds encouragement in Osteen that's fine, but if he were a man of God then he needs to be more balanced too and preach a saving gospel, preach against sin, preach repentance, preach to his church that while they can be happy they also need to live holy. If he did that I wonder how many of those same people that flocked to his church would still be there? Yes just speculation, I don't know. I don't know why anyone goes there. But if it's just for the positive feel good messages and if that is all Joel preaches obviously they are escaping from churches where they either don't get that or they also get a dose of a reminder of how to live for God. LOL I think Im sounding like a con now

[ReformedDave]

By the way he lives in a multi million dollar house. I wonder how many poor mexicans he exploited with a prosperity message to build that house.

While I'm not a fan at all of JO just because he has money doesn't mean he exploits anyone. He may or may not. I don't know.

[TRFrance]

It is an admirable thing. However it does not make someone saved or better. Look at Oprah. She is always giving away stuff and she is fast becoming a false teacher herself.

I don't think it's a stretch to say she is a false teacher already.
She has already gone on record stating that "there cant possibly be one way" to God... as seen on the video here: http://www.wfial.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=resources.oprah&badUrl=http://www.wfial.org:80/resources/oprah


At the very least, she is certainly a facilitator of false teachers, since she lets so many of them use her show as a platform for their doctrines of demons.

Of course, there's the famous "Church of Oprah" video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW4LLwkgmqA&loc=interstitialskip

[TRFrance]

By the way he lives in a multi million dollar house. I wonder how many poor mexicans he exploited with a prosperity message to build that house.
???

Why do you assume anyone was exploited?
And why do you assume "poor Mexicans" worked on his house anyway? Not every construction company in Houston uses Mexicans.

[Praxeas]

Truthfully there is not much different between Oprah and Osteen...except his hair is better.
lol. However I don't know that Osteen has ever said that Christianity is NOT the only way to God...has he? Is Osteen really a New Ager?

[Praxeas]

Tv shows are edited. You don't know what is said when the tv cameras go off. I went to one of his meetings in Cleveland. I can attest he brings salvation into the picture. Do you think Osteen has his sermon down to 28 minutes and 30 seconds? Don't think so. He always ends his broadcast with an invitation for salvation. People are responding to the gospel on a regular basis at his church. What we see on tv is just a tip of the iceberg.

By the way he lives in a multi million dollar house. I wonder how many poor mexicans he exploited with a prosperity message to build that house.
he exploits poor mexicans? Wow. I think he exploited naive white folks.

[Praxeas]

While I'm not a fan at all of JO just because he has money doesn't mean he exploits anyone. He may or may not. I don't know.
As I pointed out and TV through his bloodshot eyes and all the rage filled spit coming out of his mouth missed is that I actually praised Osteen for living off of his books and not taking money from the church during construction. People like TV can't have objective discussions. Sad

[TRFrance]

lol. However I don't know that Osteen has ever said that Christianity is NOT the only way to God...has he? Is Osteen really a New Ager?
I wouldnt say he's a new ager... but on the issue of "is Christianity the only way to God", note this part of the article: While Osteen’s message wins over the moderate masses, he has become anathema to more-traditional Southern Baptists. His appearance on Larry King Live in 2005, during which he waffled as to whether heaven was barred to Jews, Muslims, and atheists, was posted on YouTube as proof that Osteen doesn’t embrace the Gospel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfwYU2pmWYQ

[TRFrance]

...Not to mention Osteen's beliefs regarding Mormonism...
I'm not sure if this reflects just shocking ignorance, or a shocking spirit of compromise, or both:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFcVLs__5hw&feature=related

[tv1a]

tell the millionaires in his congregation he is naive. His spanish congregation is larger than the largest oneness church.

he exploits poor mexicans? Wow. I think he exploited naive white folks.

[tv1a]

Why bring it up when I agree?

As I pointed out and TV through his bloodshot eyes and all the rage filled spit coming out of his mouth missed is that I actually praised Osteen for living off of his books and not taking money from the church during construction. People like TV can't have objective discussions. Sad

[TRFrance]

tell the millionaires in his congregation he is naive. His spanish congregation is larger than the largest oneness church.

I seriously doubt that.
America's largest Oneness church (Apostolic Church of God, in Chicago) has over 20,000 members.
http://www.acog-chicago.org/

[Praxeas]

I wouldnt say he's a new ager... but on the issue of "is Christianity the only way to God", note this part of the article: While Osteen’s message wins over the moderate masses, he has become anathema to more-traditional Southern Baptists. His appearance on Larry King Live in 2005, during which he waffled as to whether heaven was barred to Jews, Muslims, and atheists, was posted on YouTube as proof that Osteen doesn’t embrace the Gospel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfwYU2pmWYQ



I remember that

[Praxeas]

tell the millionaires in his congregation he is naive. His spanish congregation is larger than the largest oneness church.
Ok...go invite them here so I can tell them they are naive. LOL...someone go read my points on how we rate success. TV here is a perfect example to bring up numbers as though that some how signals God's stamp of approval on Joel...in fact it's the carnal man's stamp of approval. The world judges approval by numbers and wealth and have disdain for the poor. That is bible.

[Praxeas]

I seriously doubt that.
America's largest Oneness church (Apostolic Church of God, in Chicago) has over 20,000 members.
http://www.acog-chicago.org/
I thought TD was Oneness too.

[Praxeas]

You know what is sad is that TV keeps trying to make this Oneness or standards when you quoted the biggest "opponent" to JO were baptists. That just shows that he is not thinking objectively

[gloryseeker]

One thing Joel did that I really admired was when they were building their new building (renovating it) he refused money from the church so they can spend it on the building and just lived off the proceeds from his books.

Yes, that was very noble of him...of course his church bought the sufficient number (in the hundreds of thousands) of books so that it would make the NY Times Best Sellers list, which got him where he is today.

It is a funny thing, when his dad was alive he would not allow Joel to minister from the pulpit because of his watered down version of the Bible.

[Praxeas]

Yes, that was very noble of him...of course his church bought the sufficient number (in the hundreds of thousands) of books so that it would make the NY Times Best Sellers list, which got him where he is today.

It is a funny thing, when his dad was alive he would not allow Joel to minister from the pulpit because of his watered down version of the Bible.
Are you serious? I mean do you know this is true? Did the church (entity, not the members) purchase several books?

[TRFrance]

I thought TD was Oneness too.
From what I understand, he is what you might call "closet Oneness"... that is, he is supposedly Oneness, but doesn't really identify himself as such. I knew someone who's been a member of his church for years, and she was Trinitarian, strangely enough (even though her husband was one of Jakes's associate ministers!).


tell the millionaires in his congregation he is naive. His spanish congregation is larger than the largest oneness church.
Ok...go invite them here so I can tell them they are naive. LOL...someone go read my points on how we rate success. TV here is a perfect example to bring up numbers as though that some how signals God's stamp of approval on Joel...in fact it's the carnal man's stamp of approval. The world judges approval by numbers and wealth and have disdain for the poor. That is bible.
Thank you!
1... There are millionaires in Scientology churches and Mormon churches too, so why should be be impressed by millionaires being in someone's church?

2... Who cares how big his church is? The Catholic Church has close to 1 billion members. Why should we be impressed if a church or denomination has large numbers?

[gloryseeker]

Are you serious? I mean do you know this is true? Did the church (entity, not the members) purchase several books?

Yep, how do you think an unknown with his first book rose so quickly? But it is a fact, I believe the initial order was around 200,000. Now, understand, this is not uncommon. Many books get on the list this way and while I am sure the members bought copies also, the corporation bought the bulk.

In retrospect, it was a good move. It paid off, but to think he is noble because of it, I think not. Maybe just a good businessman.

[CC1]

Yes, that was very noble of him...of course his church bought the sufficient number (in the hundreds of thousands) of books so that it would make the NY Times Best Sellers list, which got him where he is today.

It is a funny thing, when his dad was alive he would not allow Joel to minister from the pulpit because of his watered down version of the Bible.

You need to do a little more research before spouting this stuff. I am not a big Joel fan but the truth of the matter is that before his fathers death Joel had absolutely no desire to minister from the pulpit.

He was always shy and desired to have a behind the scenes role in the ministry. He was heavily involved in the television production part of the ministry and other behind the scenes acitivites.

There may be plenty to criticize Joel and his wife about but your accusation is just plain hooey.

I would be also interested in you substantiating your claim that his local church bought hundreds of thousands of copies of his book to pump it up the bestsellers list.

I guess the bazillion of people that watch his telecast had no interest in buying it?

Your post sounds like the typical sour grapes rumors passed on by people wanting to diss a person or ministry.

[Praxeas]

From what I understand, he is what you might call "closet Oneness"... that is, he is supposedly Oneness, but doesn't really identify himself as such. I knew someone who's been a member of his church for years, and she was Trinitarian, strangely enough (even though her husband was one of Jakes's associate ministers!).




Thank you!
1... There are millionaires in Scientology churches and Mormon churches too, so why should be be impressed by millionaires being in someone's church?

2... Who cares how big his church is? The Catholic Church has close to 1 billion members. Why should we be impressed if a church or denomination has large numbers?
McD used to boast about how many it served

[RevDWW]

A ministers/ministries are out of balance when they only taut the Love of the Lord. Without the contrast of what the Lord hates, you can not truly see the depth of His love.

[gloryseeker]

You need to do a little more research before spouting this stuff. I am not a big Joel fan but the truth of the matter is that before his fathers death Joel had absolutely no desire to minister from the pulpit.

He was always shy and desired to have a behind the scenes role in the ministry. He was heavily involved in the television production part of the ministry and other behind the scenes acitivites.

While you are correct that he was shy and behind the scene there was reason he was behind the scenes besides the shyness, my information is accurate.

I would be also interested in you substantiating your claim that his local church bought hundreds of thousands of copies of his book to pump it up the bestsellers list.Do the research you'll find out.

I guess the bazillion of people that watch his telecast had no interest in buying it?

His book is what propelled him to his current status. Before the book his audience was no where near where it is now.

Your post sounds like the typical sour grapes rumors passed on by people wanting to diss a person or ministry.Far from sour grapes, in fact I believe I said he was a good businessman.

[Rhoni]

I am more informed than you think. I listen to him regularly and he has preached many salvational messages and good Biblical teaching. Everyone has a different ministry and his is more postiive than most...God bless his heart!

Blessings, Rhoni

[TRFrance]

Yes, that was very noble of him...of course his church bought the sufficient number (in the hundreds of thousands) of books so that it would make the NY Times Best Sellers list, which got him where he is today.

Yep, how do you think an unknown with his first book rose so quickly? But it is a fact, I believe the initial order was around 200,000. Now, understand, this is not uncommon. Many books get on the list this way and while I am sure the members bought copies also, the corporation bought the bulk.

It is a fact?
What evidence do you have of this. I'd love to see it.

If you don't have any evidence to support this claim, then it is just hearsay at this point, an unsubstantiated rumor.

Do the research you'll find out.


Well, by you saying that, I'm assuming that you have done the research then.
Have you done so?
If so, kindly present your evidence to us, so we can come to an informed conclusion.

[TRFrance]

I am more informed than you think. I listen to him regularly and he has preached many salvational messages and good Biblical teaching. Everyone has a different ministry and his is more positive than most...God bless his heart!

Blessings, Rhoni
Rhoni, you seem to think highly of the man.
I see you refer to him as being a man with "good biblical teaching".

So I have 2 quick questions for you:

What do you think of his comments regarding Jews, Muslims and Atheists getting into heaven?

....and what do you think of his comments regarding Mormons being "true Christians" ?

(the YouTube videos with his comments are above)

[Jermyn Davidson]

These comments are so uninformed as to be comical...Joel Olsteen doesn't preach at all...he is the single clearest example of the all too common, non-scriptural, feel-good speaker...in essence...everybody, let's feel good...everybody let's not say anything troubling...everybody, let's join hands...in corporate happiness while the world goes whirling around without hearing the wonderful good news of Jesus Christ...

...the Olsteen principle is not new...yea, it is ancient...and is defined by the longstanding, humorous adage...a ministry of "see no evil; hear no evil; speak no evil..."

...no power...no anointing...no nothing...


I have heard that in fact the worship team at his church is anointed.

Maybe it would be good for more Pentecostal preachers to speak plainly more often than they do.

Maybe it would be good for more Pentecostal saints to sit and actually listen to what the preacher is saying instead of "amening" themselves into an emotional frenzy that results in an unchanged life dependent on that next "Pentecostal high" for any semblance of deliverance.

[RevBuddy]

I have heard that in fact the worship team at his church is anointed.

Maybe it would be good for more Pentecostal preachers to speak plainly more often than they do.

Maybe it would be good for more Pentecostal saints to sit and actually listen to what the preacher is saying instead of "amening" themselves into an emotional frenzy that results in an unchanged life dependent on that next "Pentecostal high" for any semblance of deliverance.

Oh, please...as if we haven't researched this guy????!!!!! Please....

[RevBuddy]

His own words and teachings speak to his lack of biblical knowledge or anointing...

[TRFrance]

Maybe it would be good for more Pentecostal preachers to speak plainly more often than they do.

Maybe it would be good for more Pentecostal saints to sit and actually listen to what the preacher is saying instead of "amening" themselves into an emotional frenzy that results in an unchanged life dependent on that next "Pentecostal high" for any semblance of deliverance.

"Speaking plainly" is a good thing , but shouldn't sound doctrine be a factor in this ?

Or is sound doctrine not so important nowadays?

[Jermyn Davidson]

"Speaking plainly" is a good thing , but shouldn't sound doctrine be a factor in this ?

Or is sound doctrine not so important nowadays?

Sound doctrine is the major factor. My comment was multi-directional:

Osteen may very well be anointed, maybe we're biased as to what "anointed" looks and sounds like;

More preachers should speak plainly the sound doctrine of the Word of God as deception is rampant;

More people should listen carefully to their preachers, to ensure they are in the truth of God's Word;

The speaking plainly and the careful listening needs to happen more often in our churches, IMHO.

[TRFrance]

Sound doctrine is the major factor. My comment was multi-directional:

Osteen may very well be anointed, maybe we're biased as to what "anointed" looks and sounds like;

More preachers should speak plainly the sound doctrine of the Word of God as deception is rampant;

More people should listen carefully to their preachers, to ensure they are in the truth of God's Word;

The speaking plainly and the careful listening needs to happen more often in our churches, IMHO.
Since Joel Osteen is the subject of his thread, do you consider him to be a man grounded in sound doctrine, and a solid knowledge of the Word of God?

...or, to use your words, do you consider him to be one who "speaks plainly the sound doctrine of the Word of God"?

[Rhoni]

Rhoni, you seem to think highly of the man.
I see you refer to him as being a man with "good biblical teaching".

So I have 2 quick questions for you:

What do you think of his comments regarding Jews, Muslims and Atheists getting into heaven?

....and what do you think of his comments regarding Mormons being "true Christians" ?

(the YouTube videos with his comments are above)



To be honest, I have never heard such comments; so until I do I will refrain from a comment.

Blessings, Rhoni

[TRFrance]

His own words and teachings speak to his lack of biblical knowledge or anointing...

There are a lot of TEENAGERS at our church who could tell you plainly that
A) Mormons do not have bible salvation, and that
B) Hindus, Jews, and atheists are not on their way to heaven in their current spiritual state

... so how come a 45 year old man man pastoring 30,000 people cant give straight, biblically correct answers when asked such questions?

[TRFrance]

Rhoni, you seem to think highly of the man.
I see you refer to him as being a man with "good biblical teaching".
So I have 2 quick questions for you:

What do you think of his comments regarding Jews, Muslims and Atheists getting into heaven?

....and what do you think of his comments regarding Mormons being "true Christians" ?

(the YouTube videos with his comments are above)


To be honest, I have never heard such comments; so until I do I will refrain from a comment.

Blessings, Rhoni
Well, thats why I directed you to the videos, embedded on this very thread.

But anyway... I'll embed the videos below for your convenience:
Would you care to look at the videos and give us your thoughts? Thanks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFcVLs__5hw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfwYU2pmWYQ

[Jermyn Davidson]

Since Joel Osteen is the subject of his thread, do you consider him to be a man grounded in sound doctrine, and a solid knowledge of the Word of God?

...or, to use your words, do you consider him to be one who "speaks plainly the sound doctrine of the Word of God"?

Honestly, no. However, since learning his "heritage" I've been trying to not be critical of him-- choosing to believe that the fire that was in his father will somehow consume him, one day.

There is something positive to be said about his "plain speak". He wouldn't have to give that up to be anointed and used of God. In fact, it would be an asset for the kingdom of God.

[Monkeyman]

I like JO, I like his church, and I LOVE his music team, I have covered most of their music! You probably have noticed, I don't criticize too much, there are enough of those around.

[TRFrance]

I like JO, I like his church, and I LOVE his music team, I have covered most of their music! You probably have noticed, I don't criticize too much, there are enough of those around.
What do you like about his church?
And what do you like about him?

[Monkeyman]

What do you like about his church?
And what do you like about him?I like their exuberant worship, I like it that they smile, I love their stage setup, I like their organization in the office.

I like his speaking style and mannerisms, I like it that he encourages, I like the way he looks at and treats his wife in public, I like it that he gives his team much support in their ministries.

[TRFrance]

I like his speaking style and mannerisms, I like it that he encourages, I like the way he looks at and treats his wife in public, I like it that he gives his team much support in their ministries.

Do his doctrinal shortcomings concern you at all?

[Monkeyman]

No. I am sure I won't agree with everything you preach but I still wouldn't criticize you. Again, there will be enough to criticize him and point out his shortcomings, you guys DON'T need me.

[Monkeyman]

My calling isn't to go out and show how everyone is wrong, my calling is to be a worship leader and that is enough on my plate. Hopefully when I stand before my Judge, He will say, "well done". What JO does or doesn't do doesn't have any impact on who I am, what I do, or how I live.

[TRFrance]

No. I am sure I won't agree with everything you preach but I still wouldn't criticize you. Again, there will be enough to criticize him and point out his shortcomings, you guys DON'T need me.
Nobody is asking you to criticize the man.

The question had to do with "are you concerned that someone pastoring souls is off-base on the most basic biblical doctrines?". Either you are, or you're not.

(Or of course there are some who try so hard to appear "non-critical" or "non-judgmental" that they simply overlook false doctrine.)

-----
If your own pastor went on national TV and said he believes Mormons are saved... and if also he's evasive when asked if Hindus and atheists go to heaven, you're telling us you wouldn't be bothered by that?

[Monkeyman]

Nobody is asking you to criticize the man.

The question had to do with "are you concerned that someone pastoring souls is off-base on the most basic biblical doctrines?". Either you are, or you're not.

(Or of course there are some who try so hard to appear "non-critical" or "non-judgmental" that they simply overlook false doctrine.)

-----
If your own pastor went on national TV and said he believes Mormons are saved... and if also he's evasive when asked if Hindus and atheists go to heaven, you're telling us you wouldn't be bothered by that?I don't understand why you are beating this bush so hard concerning me????? Of course I would be concerned if MYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PASTOR did this, cuz HEEEEEEEEEEEE is MYYYYYYYYYY Pastor and that affects me, get it, sheesh!
JO means nothing to me, has no impact on my life, I am not called to go and make everything right in Houston.

You parenthesied comment brings you to light.. I try so hard to appear, "non-critical" what a joke!

[TRFrance]

My calling isn't to go out and show how everyone is wrong, my calling is to be a worship leader and that is enough on my plate. Hopefully when I stand before my Judge, He will say, "well done". What JO does or doesn't do doesn't have any impact on who I am, what I do, or how I live.
Ok then.

So anyone who expresses concern about a preacher expressing blatant falsehood on core bible doctrines is just trying to "go out and show how everyone is wrong".

Okey doke.

[ReformedDave]

I like their exuberant worship, I like it that they smile, I love their stage setup, I like their organization in the office.

I like his speaking style and mannerisms, I like it that he encourages, I like the way he looks at and treats his wife in public, I like it that he gives his team much support in their ministries.

Don't get his wife angry. Especially on a plane......

[Monkeyman]

Ok then.

So anyone who expresses concern about a preacher expressing blatant falsehood on core bible doctrines is just trying to "go out and show how everyone is wrong".

Okey doke.Sheesh man you don't get it at all. One last kick at the can and then we're done okay?? There are those who's calling is to preach, point out false doctrines, preach the Message. That is NOT my calling. I, again I TR, I don't criticize, that is for OTHERS to do. YOU seem to have picked up that mantle, now you're criticizing me, have at it I guess.

[TRFrance]

I don't understand why you are beating this bush so hard concerning me????? Of course I would be concerned if MYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PASTOR did this, cuz HEEEEEEEEEEEE is MYYYYYYYYYY Pastor and that affects me, get it, sheesh!
JO means nothing to me, has no impact on my life, I am not called to go and make everything right in Houston.

You parenthesied comment brings you to light.. I try so hard to appear, "non-critical" what a joke!.

Why did I focus on you? Well, you chose to insert yourself into the conversation by posting on the thread.... So why is it wrong to ask follow up questions?

You went out of your way to tell us how you like his speaking style, how his church organizes their office, how he looks at his wife, etc...

... but then you not-so-subtly imply that those who're who express concern about is lack of sound doctrine are being "critical".

-
You imply that you're not going to comment on his doctrinal stuff because he's not your pastor. In essence , it's not something you feel like commenting on since he's not your pastor.

OK but... he's not your pastor and that didn't stop you from commenting on irrelevant stuff like how he looks at his wife, or how his church arranges their office!

Good grief, at least be consistent.
-----
And yes, its obvious you're trying hard to appear non-critical. Even Stevie Wonder can see that. In my opinion, you trying to deny it is what is a joke.

Anyway, I wont "beat the bush" anymore. We can just move on if you like sir.

[Monkeyman]

.

Why did I focus on you? Well, you chose to insert yourself into the conversation by posting on the thread.... So why is it wrong to ask follow up questions?

You went out of your way to tell us how you like his speaking style, how his church organizes their office, how he looks at his wife, etc...

... but then you not-so-subtly imply that those who're who express concern about is lack of sound doctrine are being "critical".

-
You imply that you're not going to comment on his doctrinal stuff because he's not your pastor. In essence , it's not something you feel like commenting on since he's not your pastor.

OK but... he's not your pastor and that didn't stop you from commenting on irrelevant stuff like how he looks at his wife, or how his church arranges their office!

Good grief, at least be consistent.
-----
And yes, its obvious you're trying hard to appear non-critical. Even Stevie Wonder can see that. In my opinion, you trying to deny it is what is a joke.

Anyway, I wont "beat the bush" anymore. We can just move on if you like sir.I went out of my way???? You asked and I politely answered, and yes, we're done.

[CC1]

Don't get his wife angry. Especially on a plane......

ROFL!!!! That is exactly what I was thinking. Apparently Joel is much nicer than she is.

I think her little airplane altercation set back their PR effort a bit but it all seems to have faded away now. I hope he read her the riot act over her behaviour.

[Monkeyman]

ROFL!!!! That is exactly what I was thinking. Apparently Joel is much nicer than she is.

I think her little airplane altercation set back their PR effort a bit but it all seems to have faded away now. I hope he read her the riot act over her behaviour.I missed it, what happened? I thought it was Roberston or Schuller that had a hissy fit on a plane????

[CC1]

I missed it, what happened? I thought it was Roberston or Schuller that had a hissy fit on a plane????

Here ya go;

http://www.ssqq.com/stories/reputation05.htm

Apparently she thnks the name "Victoria" means she is Queen Victoria and must be obeyed, waited on IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!

If there is a polar opposite of the fruit of the spirit I think that is what she displayed here. I would have loved to have seen Joel's face when all of this went down. He probably wanted to go hide somewhere.

[Mrs. LPW]

I read the link... I imagine the some of the accounts were overblown.
Osteen and family would have a huge target painted on thier foreheads, being the head of such a large prominent church.

It wouldn't have happened had she just patiently waited.

Hindsight, 20/20

How many times have I done something without thinking it through?

Too many to count.

[ReformedDave]

I read the link... I imagine the some of the accounts were overblown.
Osteen and family would have a huge target painted on thier foreheads, being the head of such a large prominent church.

It wouldn't have happened had she just patiently waited.

Hindsight, 20/20

How many times have I done something without thinking it through?

Too many to count.

Sounds like she's a princess.......

[CC1]

Monkeyperson,

In true old time Pentecost fashion just because you have not come out in a full frontal assault against JO we are now going to have to label you as;

1. Believing Mormons are saved Christians
2. Believing Muslims and other heatherns are going to heaven.

[TRFrance]

Monkeyperson,

In true old time Pentecost fashion just because you have not come out in a full frontal assault against JO we are now going to have to label you as;

1. Believing Mormons are saved Christians
2. Believing Muslims and other heathens are going to heaven.

Not necessary. and simply untrue.

Nobody asked anyone for a "full frontal assault" (or any kind of assault) on anyone.

I simply asked the man if he was bothered by JO's glaring shortcomings... since he made a point of telling us how much he liked the guy, and liked his church, and seemed to be implying that some of us here were being too critical of the man's doctrinal positions.

But don't turn this into a distortion of what I've said here... or some kind of excuse to make some snarky comment about "old time Pentecost".

[CC1]

Not necessary. and simply untrue.

Nobody asked anyone for a "full frontal assault" (or any kind of assault) on anyone.

I simply asked the man if he was bothered by JO's glaring shortcomings... since he made a point of telling us how much he liked the guy, and liked his church, and seemed to be implying that some of us here were being too critical of the man's doctrinal positions.

But don't turn this into a distortion of what I've said here... or some kind of excuse to make some snarky comment about "old time Pentecost".

Now you have gone and hurt my feelings!

(you seemed pretty determined to get Monkeyperson to condemn JO for his shortcomings is all)

[Mrs. LPW]

I can't say anything about JO, because I'm presently standing before a mirror and trying to get the big stick out of my eye.

:D

[TRFrance]

(you seemed pretty determined to get Monkeyperson to condemn JO for his shortcomings is all)

Nobody asked him to condemn anyone. (There u go again with the hyperbole.) It was a simple question of: "if you like so-and-so, are you bothered by so-and-so?"

... but the answer of "I don't want to get into that, because I'm only called to music ministry" just seemed to me to be a bit fallacious to me, and inconsistent in a certain sense.

Anyway, it is what it is.
No need rehashing this endlessly.

[Praxeas]

I have heard that in fact the worship team at his church is anointed.

Maybe it would be good for more Pentecostal preachers to speak plainly more often than they do.

Maybe it would be good for more Pentecostal saints to sit and actually listen to what the preacher is saying instead of "amening" themselves into an emotional frenzy that results in an unchanged life dependent on that next "Pentecostal high" for any semblance of deliverance.
You can listen and even say "amen"...and I've never been in a church meeting where someone amened themselves into an emotional frenzy...have you done this?

[Praxeas]

Sheesh man you don't get it at all. One last kick at the can and then we're done okay?? There are those who's calling is to preach, point out false doctrines, preach the Message. That is NOT my calling. I, again I TR, I don't criticize, that is for OTHERS to do. YOU seem to have picked up that mantle, now you're criticizing me, have at it I guess.
I don't think recognizing false doctrine is a calling. False doctrine and false teachers arise because not enough people will do or say something, not a reflection on anyone in particular just the very notion itself the bible warns on

2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

We've even discussed UPC preachers preaching false doctrine here

[Praxeas]

Here ya go;

http://www.ssqq.com/stories/reputation05.htm

Apparently she thnks the name "Victoria" means she is Queen Victoria and must be obeyed, waited on IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!

If there is a polar opposite of the fruit of the spirit I think that is what she displayed here. I would have loved to have seen Joel's face when all of this went down. He probably wanted to go hide somewhere.
They need to build their own private air port and get a private jet to avoid such annoyances in the future ;)

[Praxeas]

I read the link... I imagine the some of the accounts were overblown.
Osteen and family would have a huge target painted on thier foreheads, being the head of such a large prominent church.

It wouldn't have happened had she just patiently waited.

Hindsight, 20/20

How many times have I done something without thinking it through?

Too many to count.I guarantee you that airline would kiss their rear ends if given the chance. The FBI was called. I've never been kicked off an airline

[TRFrance]

I don't think recognizing false doctrine is a calling. False doctrine and false teachers arise because not enough people will do or say something, not a reflection on anyone in particular just the very notion itself the bible warns on

2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

We've even discussed UPC preachers preaching false doctrine here
I agree.
Well said.

[Apocrypha]

I've been to Lakewood a few times now on Saturday evenings.

Yes, Joel is "Diet Gospel" in his public sermons. Their approach at Lakewood is to get people in the door.

However... I will defend them on this... they do emphasize the Holy Spirit. If you walk through one of their lobbies they have plenty of literature on receiving the Holy Spirit. They don't push it from a salvational viewpoint, but it would be in line with what a AG church does.

His mom has massive healing prayer services once a week after one of the Sunday services in one of the attached wedding chapels. They are big into pentecostal/charismatic style healing.

They have classes once a month to explain what receiving the Holy Spirit and Baptism is all about (which actually beats most apostolic churches since they hardly ever lay down doctrine systematically).

They have many classes to help people grow in various areas like divorce recovery, financial planning, learning basic bible doctrines, etc etc in a buffet style approach.. which actually isn't a bad way to do bible study overall.


The approach of Lakewood is to have a wide open door and then start assimilating folks as they get plugged into the system. They do emphasize the Holy Spirit, Tongues (they call it speaking in your God Given Prayer Language in the literature), and divine healing... they just wait until you buy into the church and join before they push it.


I'm not a fan of Joels preaching by any means.. its somewhat empty for me. But his church has a amazing back end system to get the job done. Its the opposite of most apostolic churches where they have good preaching, and no back end systems or delegated authority at all beyond the few home bible study teachers who never get a ounce of respect from the platform (and you know its true).

[LUKE2447]

These comments are so uninformed as to be comical...Joel Olsteen doesn't preach at all...he is the single clearest example of the all too common, non-scriptural, feel-good speaker...in essence...everybody, let's feel good...everybody let's not say anything troubling...everybody, let's join hands...in corporate happiness while the world goes whirling around without hearing the wonderful good news of Jesus Christ...

...the Olsteen principle is not new...yea, it is ancient...and is defined by the longstanding, humorous adage...a ministry of "see no evil; hear no evil; speak no evil..."

...no power...no anointing...no nothing...


I totaly agree. His attitude on Larry King gives a exellent example of this pathetic excuse for a preacher.

Men and Brethren what shall we do?

Joel Osteen. Well, how do you feel about it.

We are pricked in the heart!

Joel Osteen.. That's great! Use that energy!

For what?

Joel Osteen.. See I have these books that will teach you alot of nothing and leave you feeling good about nothing but doing good about nothing.

[LUKE2447]

I've been to Lakewood a few times now on Saturday evenings.

Yes, Joel is "Diet Gospel" in his public sermons. Their approach at Lakewood is to get people in the door.

However... I will defend them on this... they do emphasize the Holy Spirit. If you walk through one of their lobbies they have plenty of literature on receiving the Holy Spirit. They don't push it from a salvational viewpoint, but it would be in line with what a AG church does.

His mom has massive healing prayer services once a week after one of the Sunday services in one of the attached wedding chapels. They are big into pentecostal/charismatic style healing.

They have classes once a month to explain what receiving the Holy Spirit and Baptism is all about (which actually beats most apostolic churches since they hardly ever lay down doctrine systematically).

They have many classes to help people grow in various areas like divorce recovery, financial planning, learning basic bible doctrines, etc etc in a buffet style approach.. which actually isn't a bad way to do bible study overall.


The approach of Lakewood is to have a wide open door and then start assimilating folks as they get plugged into the system. They do emphasize the Holy Spirit, Tongues (they call it speaking in your God Given Prayer Language in the literature), and divine healing... they just wait until you buy into the church and join before they push it.


I'm not a fan of Joels preaching by any means.. its somewhat empty for me. But his church has a amazing back end system to get the job done. Its the opposite of most apostolic churches where they have good preaching, and no back end systems or delegated authority at all beyond the few home bible study teachers who never get a ounce of respect from the platform (and you know its true).

No back end system I would agree. It's not about getting people in the door or saved it's usually about keeping them plugged in and loving them all the way through it.

[Mrs. LPW]

I guarantee you that airline would kiss their rear ends if given the chance. The FBI was called. I've never been kicked off an airline

I've never been kicked off a plane either.
Just trying to be merciful.

[U376977]

Yep, how do you think an unknown with his first book rose so quickly? But it is a fact, I believe the initial order was around 200,000. Now, understand, this is not uncommon. Many books get on the list this way and while I am sure the members bought copies also, the corporation bought the bulk.

In retrospect, it was a good move. It paid off, but to think he is noble because of it, I think not. Maybe just a good businessman.

As I understand a spot on the list is "purchased." To begin with, it has nothing to do with booksales. Of course, when you hit the list--the book sales follow. (Not sure if this is true, but I got my information from ministry/business directors leaders of TL Osborne).

[TRFrance]

I'm not a fan of Joels preaching by any means.. its somewhat empty for me. But his church has a amazing back end system to get the job done. Its the opposite of most apostolic churches where they have good preaching, and no back end systems or delegated authority at all beyond the few home bible study teachers who never get a ounce of respect from the platform (and you know its true).

No back end system I would agree. It's not about getting people in the door or saved it's usually about keeping them plugged in and loving them all the way through it.
No argument here.

When it comes to teaching...training... community outreach...promotions, and use of media to deliver the message... and just efficient organization as a whole, there are other groups that dont have truth, that actually run rings around most apostolic churches and denomiminations.

Frankly, I've seen programs implemented by the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, certain Charismatic groups, etc that would put many, or most, of our Apostolic churches to shame. It's great to have the correct message (which I'm convinced that we do), but if we dont deliver it efficiently, it makes one wonder: how many souls are falling through the cracks in the meantime?

[LUKE2447]

No argument here.

When it comes to teaching...training... community outreach...promotions, and use of media to deliver the message... and just efficient organization as a whole, there are other groups that dont have truth, that actually run rings around most apostolic churches and denomiminations.

Frankly, I've seen programs implemented by the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, certain Charismatic groups, etc that would put many, or most, of our Apostolic churches to shame. It's great to have the correct message (which I'm convinced that we do), but if we dont deliver it efficiently, it makes one wonder: how many souls are falling through the cracks in the meantime?


It shows simply one thing. Church programs tht create size and good preachers that keep saints have really nothing to do with truth. It also shows one can create a huge church with minimal truth and everyone go along with a bunch of nothing.

[CC1]

As I understand a spot on the list is "purchased." To begin with, it has nothing to do with booksales. Of course, when you hit the list--the book sales follow. (Not sure if this is true, but I got my information from ministry/business directors leaders of TL Osborne).

You understand wrong. Spots on the bestseller lists are not sold. Good grief!

[TRFrance]

It shows simply one thing. Church programs that create size and good preachers that keep saints have really nothing to do with truth. It also shows one can create a huge church with minimal truth and everyone go along with a bunch of nothing.
Indeed, but of course the flip side of that is also true (and is more important to us as Apostolics):

Even after having truth, there still need to be practical, real-world delivery systems to deliver the message to the world. If we don't develop those (through proper teaching, training, discipling, leadership development, effective outreach programs, etc.) we wont be nearly as effective as we could and should be.

[TK Burk]

Here's a few scriptures to keep in mind when talking about men like Osteen....

1 John 4:1
(1) Beloved, BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT, BUT TRY THE SPIRITS WHETHER THEY ARE OF GOD: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Deuteronomy 13:1-5
(1) If there ARISE AMONG YOU A PROPHET, OR A DREAMER OF DREAMS, AND GIVETH THEE A SIGN OR A WONDER,
(2) And THE SIGN OR THE WONDER COME TO PASS, whereof he spoke unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
(3) Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: FOR THE LORD YOUR GOD PROVETH YOU, TO KNOW WHETHER YE LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL.
(4) Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
(5) And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Proverbs 14:15
(15) The simple believeth every word: but THE PRUDENT MAN LOOKETH WELL TO HIS GOING.

2 Corinthians 11:12-15
(12) But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
(13) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
(14) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
(15) Therefore IT IS NO GREAT THING IF HIS MINISTERS ALSO BE TRANSFORMED AS THE MINISTERS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS; whose end shall be according to their works.

Isaiah 66:4
(4) I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

2 Thessalonians 2:7-13
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(9) EVEN HIM, WHOSE COMING IS AFTER THE WORKING OF SATAN WITH ALL POWER AND SIGNS AND LYING WONDERS,
(10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.
(11) AND FOR THIS CAUSE GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE:
(12) THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED WHO BELIEVED NOT THE TRUTH, BUT HAD PLEASURE IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.
(13) But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

[Sister Alvear]

I read a beautiful story about J.O´s father.

[Jermyn Davidson]

You can listen and even say "amen"...and I've never been in a church meeting where someone amened themselves into an emotional frenzy...have you done this?


As a matter of fact, no I have not.

Sarcastically, I was commenting on the need for some of our fellow Pentecostal saints to not only hear, but listen to what their preacher is saying while he preaches.

I have seen folks, on more than a few occasions, who jump up, say things like, "that's right, that's right!", or "preach it!"-- they do it loudly and it is usually not just a one time occurrence, ad libbing to the sermon as they see fit.

I've even seen folks run up and touch the preachers back with the Bible, as if to pat him on the back. Why all the nonsense while the preacher is trying to preach?


It's a distraction, misplaced enthusiasm. Biblically, they are out of order as their antics take away from the preached Word of God.

We would do better to sit and listen.

[Praxeas]

As a matter of fact, no I have not.

Sarcastically, I was commenting on the need for some of our fellow Pentecostal saints to not only hear, but listen to what their preacher is saying while he preaches.

I have seen folks, on more than a few occasions, who jump up, say things like, "that's right, that's right!", or "preach it!"-- they do it loudly and it is usually not just a one time occurrence, ad libbing to the sermon as they see fit.

I've even seen folks run up and touch the preachers back with the Bible, as if to pat him on the back. Why all the nonsense while the preacher is trying to preach?


It's a distraction, misplaced enthusiasm. Biblically, they are out of order as their antics take away from the preached Word of God.

We would do better to sit and listen.
Doesn't happen here. They might get a few amens though.

[Apocrypha]

John Osteen (Joels father) was baptized in Jesus name by the former pastor of the church I help at. He was a baptist pastor here in Baytown and then recieved the Holy Spirit. In trying to learn more about the experience he met with all the various spirit filled pastors in town (AG, Pentecostal Church of God, UPCI) and Rev. Ford showed him where it was in scripture and he agreed to be baptized.

They still baptize in Jesus name using a hybrid formula at Lakewood from what I understand.

[crakjak]

I've been to Lakewood a few times now on Saturday evenings.

Yes, Joel is "Diet Gospel" in his public sermons. Their approach at Lakewood is to get people in the door.

However... I will defend them on this... they do emphasize the Holy Spirit. If you walk through one of their lobbies they have plenty of literature on receiving the Holy Spirit. They don't push it from a salvational viewpoint, but it would be in line with what a AG church does.

His mom has massive healing prayer services once a week after one of the Sunday services in one of the attached wedding chapels. They are big into pentecostal/charismatic style healing.

They have classes once a month to explain what receiving the Holy Spirit and Baptism is all about (which actually beats most apostolic churches since they hardly ever lay down doctrine systematically).

They have many classes to help people grow in various areas like divorce recovery, financial planning, learning basic bible doctrines, etc etc in a buffet style approach.. which actually isn't a bad way to do bible study overall.


The approach of Lakewood is to have a wide open door and then start assimilating folks as they get plugged into the system. They do emphasize the Holy Spirit, Tongues (they call it speaking in your God Given Prayer Language in the literature), and divine healing... they just wait until you buy into the church and join before they push it.


I'm not a fan of Joels preaching by any means.. its somewhat empty for me. But his church has a amazing back end system to get the job done. Its the opposite of most apostolic churches where they have good preaching, and no back end systems or delegated authority at all beyond the few home bible study teachers who never get a ounce of respect from the platform (and you know its true).

This is the part that the bashers never see nor are they interested in knowing, Lakewood is in the life changing business. I thought we all believed the Holy Spirit would lead and guide to all truth, apparently many only believe this if the come thru their doors and their baptismal tanks?

I'll take the "diet" gospel on the front end, and the "meat" on the back end any day for effective ministry.

[TRFrance]

This is the part that the bashers never see nor are they interested in knowing, Lakewood is in the life changing business. I thought we all believed the Holy Spirit would lead and guide to all truth, apparently many only believe this if the come thru their doors and their baptismal tanks?

I'll take the "diet" gospel on the front end, and the "meat" on the back end any day for effective ministry.
Why not just give the full gospel, with the meat, up front?

Isnt that what God expects from his church?

...Not to mention that there are many pastors/churches that only give people the "diet" ("watered down") gospel and never give any "meat" later. As a matter of fact, some of these guys wouldnt recognize meat, even if it fell on their heads like manna from heaven.

[LUKE2447]

yeah, Jesus was giving his masses the love spill of self improvement vs repent from your ways etc...

[Apocrypha]

yeah, Jesus was giving his masses the love spill of self improvement vs repent from your ways etc...


The parables contained alot on what the future Kingdom of God would be like, but his sayings also had a lot of life living skills in them too.. consider the lily in the fields...