View Full Version : Trinitarian tongues and interpretation
A_PoMo
08-04-2008, 12:33 PM
I attended a trinitarian Pentecostal church yesterday where there was a tongues and interpretion at the end of the worship portion of the service. The church is a medium sized church of about 600 people and has been around for about 90 years. They are self ascribed "Pentecasual" in that they don't demonstrate alot of public displays of what is normally considered Pentecostal style worship and prayer. While I've seen speaking in tongues, the practice of spiritual gifts and such in a small group or one-on-one setting I've not seen it in the public service. So it was a out of the ordinary for this tongues and interpretation to happen as it did. I say all that to set the context so that it is understood that there isn't pressure on people to 'perform' or act 'spiritual' as I've seen in some Pentecostal circles which seems to produce some wack jobs and many 'false' events. If it happens in this church it is generally the real deal.
The lady who spoke out was an elderly lady with a lovely German accent. She rolled her R's and everything. It was pretty cool. She spoke the tongues and then the pastor had everyone sit down and explained to visitors what was going on. He talked about the importance of this gift and asked for people to speak up of they felt they had the interpretation. Nobody volunteered. He sensed that the elderly lady had the interpretation and asked her if she had the message and she did and spoke it out clearly and strongly. It was very powerful, and everything she said was biblically based as far as content and it had an edifying and exhortive effect on the congregation. Ironically the title of the sermon was "Pentecost - The most important event of the church!". It was obviously a God moment for the church and not contrived.
As one whose roots are in OPism I tuned into something that most of them probably didn't realize. As she spoke it was clear that it was the Holy Spirit speaking and she referred a couple of times to "Jesus" and "The Father" in the third person and it was clear they were menat to understood as an something other than than her or the one speaking through her. Had this happened in an OP church it would have been disconcerting for many OP's present as it obviously had a trinitarian perspective.
Ok, so here are my questions. First of all what is your reaction to this spiritual event happening in a trinitarian church? Second, what do you think about the trinitarian flavor of the message? A follow-up to that would be how much do you think our personal theology effects our 'interpretations' of tongues both in the verbal offering of the interpreation as well as the mental processing of those who hear it?
Michael The Disciple
08-04-2008, 12:45 PM
There is no problem to me if a message refers to the Father and Jesus. The New Testament is full of words like that so in itself that would not make it false. I would love to hear tongues messages that truly brought revelation. Something more than "I love you my people".
If it brought real revelation I would be impressed. Now if a message came out saying "I am a trinty" or something obviouly false I would want no more of it. So my theology does affect my acceptance of what the Spirit is supposedly saying.
A_PoMo
08-04-2008, 12:52 PM
What you define as "revelation" ?
pelathais
08-04-2008, 01:04 PM
The fact that she "rolled her r's" in accordance with her German accent would seem to indicate that there is a human component to this divine manifestation. I have never read in my KJV Bible any place where the Holy Spirit "rolled His r's."
Also, in Scripture it is rather common to see one "Person" speak to another "Person" as though they were a "seperate entity..." see Psalm 110:1, for an example. But then we find the same grammatical construction in other passages of Scripture where there is clearly just one "person" who is clearly intended such as Luke 15:17 and Psalm 42:11.
The Godhead has complexities within itself, but God is still one.
Jack Shephard
08-04-2008, 01:04 PM
I don't care either way. In either tongues and the interpretation the message given is 'filtered' through our flesh. This means through our voice and possible through our minds. If we are conditioned to speak verbage one way then it is very likely when giving one of these messages it will come out based on our conditioning. Such as this lady rolled her R's well. If it had been an english American there might have not been the rolling of the R's but it mostlikely would not have affected the message at all the rolling was a condition of her native tongue and the Jesus and the Father talk was a by product of her conditioning, IMO
TRFrance
08-04-2008, 01:06 PM
As one whose roots are in OPism I tuned into something that most of them probably didn't realize. As she spoke it was clear that it was the Holy Spirit speaking and she referred a couple of times to "Jesus" and "The Father" in the third person and it was clear they were menat to understood as an something other than than her or the one speaking through her. Had this happened in an OP church it would have been disconcerting for many OP's present as it obviously had a trinitarian perspective.
Ok, so here are my questions. First of all what is your reaction to this spiritual event happening in a trinitarian church? Second, what do you think about the trinitarian flavor of the message? A follow-up to that would be how much do you think our personal theology effects our 'interpretations' of tongues both in the verbal offering of the interpreation as well as the mental processing of those who hear it?
Obvious " trinitarian perspective"?
A "trinitarian flavor"?
Even the New Testament has many phrases that some consider to have "triniarian flavor". But reading those verses dont make me think there's a trinity, since in its overall context the bible makes it clear to me there is no Trinity.
Hearing tongues and interpretation in someone's church isnt going to make me change my theology on something that Word of God already makes fairly clear to me.
We're headed down a slippery slope if we allow our doctrine and theology to be determined by tongues-and-interpretation messages.
LUKE2447
08-04-2008, 01:51 PM
No problem considering Jesus is a actual man and Son, though the very image/nature of God made flesh etc... He is the expression of the Father and in being that and a man he can refer to the Father as other than himself. It does not contradict One God. As the FATHER is the only God and all that proceeds forth from him cannot be another God as he is the divine source. Thus Jesus being his offshoot cannot claim divinity of his own but what he Father gives. Thus his source it that of the ONE TRUE GOD the Father. Thus Jesus can pray and yet be God as he is ONE with the Father yet distinct in his humanity. So yes they can speak of distinction. One as the man Christ Jesus the other as the Father in which he receives all divine attributes and nature.
...
Ok, so here are my questions.
First of all what is your reaction to this spiritual event happening in a trinitarian church?
Second, what do you think about the trinitarian flavor of the message?
A follow-up to that would be how much do you think our personal theology effects our 'interpretations' of tongues both in the verbal offering of the interpreation as well as the mental processing of those who hear it?
First, in my opinion, there is only one Holy Ghost, and He lives within all who have invited Jesus Christ into their lives. Not only are some folks in trinity churches (and in oneness churches) saved but some have also been baptized in the Spirit.
Second, was it really "trinitarian flavor"? Or did it reflect language used in Scripture such as
"God gave His Son;"
"blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ;"
"God anointed Jesus Christ of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and power who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed of the devil for God was with him;"
"The Lord said unto my Lord...;"
"He has made Him to be sin for us who knew no sin;"
etc.?
Some of us can hear those same phrases and have a different mental picture.
As to the follow up, I think that has been addressed in another thread on tongues on this forum. I'll see if I can find my answer there.
...
As to the follow up, I think that has been addressed in another thread on tongues on this forum. I'll see if I can find my answer there.
These are some things I've said in another thread on this forum:
When a person prophesies or interprets an utterance in tongues, he/she is speaking out to people and giving them what he/she thinks God would say to them at that time. We have some times made it too "magical" or too "spooky" or too "spiritual." Often the person just speaks from their heart without "planning" what they are going to say. Consequently it is spoken in the same way the person usually speaks (as far as grammer, pronunciation, local slang, etc.). Because the person feels like they are speaking for God they often "dress it up" in KJV English because: 1) they think God talks that way, and 2) it is expected by the hearers.
Now, please don't take this as a putdown of tongues, interpretation, and prophecy. As the person yields and speaks out by faith, God can and some times does, get some things out there that would not have been spoken under ordinary circumstances. Some things may be revealed that would have been otherwise unknown. But, usually, the person speaking is saying something to build up, stir up, and cheer up or lift up the hearers, so it is often about: God knowing what we are going through; God's promise of His presence with us at all times; encouragement to hold on if prayer is not answered as soon as we would like it to be; encouragement to be faithful to God; a move of God just around the corner; the rapture which is the hope of the saints; etc. We all could stand to hear those things every once in a while.
__________________
BrotherEastman
08-04-2008, 02:20 PM
First, in my opinion, there is only one Holy Ghost, and He lives within all who have invited Jesus Christ into their lives. Not only are some folks in trinity churches (and in oneness churches) saved but some have also been baptized in the Spirit.
Second, was it really "trinitarian flavor"? Or did it reflect language used in Scripture such as
"God gave His Son;"
"blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ;"
"God anointed Jesus Christ of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and power who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed of the devil for God was with him;"
"The Lord said unto my Lord...;"
"He has made Him to be sin for us who knew no sin;"
etc.?
Some of us can hear those same phrases and have a different mental picture.
As to the follow up, I think that has been addressed in another thread on tongues on this forum. I'll see if I can find my answer there.
Excellent answer Sam.
TRFrance
08-04-2008, 02:30 PM
Strangely enough, there are people who would hear such a message via Tongues/Interpretation in a Trinitarian church and take that as defintive "proof of the Trinity!"
I think someone who is well grounded in the Word, and in biblical principle, would know better... but unfortunately, too many of God's people are not properly grounded as they should be.... which is why so many seem to get blown about by every wind of doctrine.
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."
Rhoni
08-04-2008, 02:35 PM
I think it is hilarious that anyone would think the gifts of the Spirit only operate in Oneness churches. Don't you think if tongues and interpretaion were used in a oneness church it would have a 'oneness flavor'?
This is too funny!
Blessigns, Rhoni
chseeads
08-04-2008, 02:35 PM
I'm still stuck on the idea of a church of 600 people being "medium-sized." lol
mizpeh
08-04-2008, 02:36 PM
Ok, so here are my questions. First of all what is your reaction to this spiritual event happening in a trinitarian church? Second, what do you think about the trinitarian flavor of the message? A follow-up to that would be how much do you think our personal theology effects our 'interpretations' of tongues both in the verbal offering of the interpreation as well as the mental processing of those who hear it?
I'm glad the Spirit is being allowed to move in a Trinitarian church in a greater way than convicting of sin. I don't have a problem with what you are calling a "Trinitarian flavor", either. Usually I feel the presence of the Spirit when a tongue/interpretation or prophecy is given, so I would look for the Spirit to confirm His word in some way. The message should agree with the Bible.
TRFrance
08-04-2008, 03:23 PM
I think it is hilarious that anyone would think the gifts of the Spirit only operate in Oneness churches. Don't you think if tongues and interpretaion were used in a oneness church it would have a 'oneness flavor'?
I didnt see anyone say that.
Excellent answer Sam.
So, does this mean you agree that the Holy Ghost lives inside everyone who has invited Jesus into their lives? So much for the initial evidence of speaking in tongues I thought you believed in. Tell the truth, you're a closet one stepper, ain'tcha? :D
I've been in an AOG church while tongues and interpretation has gone forth. Every time it happened, God was calling them into a deeper walk with Him. I've heard oneness scriptures quoted better than we can do, during these experiences. I don't believe God has given up on the AOG. Not yet, anyway.
Praxeas
08-04-2008, 07:24 PM
I was in a revival meeting and the evangelist was preaching a message that concluded with Acts 2:38. The premise of the entire message was a build up to obeying Acts 2:38
We had a message in tongues near the end before Alter call with the interpretation saying essentially: Listen to my servant for he speaks the truth. I have spoken once and maybe not again. I can give life and I can take it back again.
It was very powerful. On the other hand I have never actually heard an interpretation speak doctrinally like "I am not three persons I am one" or "baptism in the triune forumula is wrong"...MOST interpretations were of the encouragement, exhortation kind or a warning of sin in people's lives
Carpenter
08-04-2008, 07:38 PM
I have asked this type of question before (sans the German lady and the rolling R's) in the UPC circle I was in, and you know what the response was?
Cmon, guess...
You can't guess?
Sure, the response was, "Well, the devil can lie and imitate someone speaking on tongues."
Never in a million years would they ever believe that someone lost with the Harlot's doctrine could speak in tongues much less in the gifts of the spirit.
Isn't this close to blasphemy of the worst kind, attributing the works of God to another?
Praxeas
08-04-2008, 07:41 PM
I have asked this type of question before (sans the German lady and the rolling R's) in the UPC circle I was in, and you know what the response was?
Cmon, guess...
You can't guess?
Sure, the response was, "Well, the devil can lie and imitate someone speaking on tongues."
Never in a million years would they ever believe that someone lost with the Harlot's doctrine could speak in tongues much less in the gifts of the spirit.
Isn't this close to blasphemy of the worst kind, attributing the works of God to another?
What is their answer when they realize us OPs came OUT of the Trinitarian church already filled with the Spirit with tongues before we got that revelation?
Carpenter
08-04-2008, 07:44 PM
What is their answer when they realize us OPs came OUT of the Trinitarian church already filled with the Spirit with tongues before we got that revelation?
You think I had the temerity to argue with them at that point? I would have rather been excommuncated because of my indifference than to argue that a Trinitarian speaking in tongues is genuine, and that they just did blasphemy...!
Praxeas
08-04-2008, 07:54 PM
You think I had the temerity to argue with them at that point? I would have rather been excommuncated because of my indifference than to argue that a Trinitarian speaking in tongues is genuine, and that they just did blasphemy...!
lol well I still want to know the answer
Blubayou
08-04-2008, 08:17 PM
I asked a similar question to an aunt of mine several years ago, in reference to a "Charismatic" lady who gave tongues and interpretation in our church when we were without a pastor. Her answer - God used a donkey to speak in the Bible - He can use any vessel. I thought her answer was unique.
LUKE2447
08-04-2008, 08:21 PM
I just love this HS that never teaches doctrine to the church. I mean why would the HS not want to TEACH us or bring ALL things to the church to make unity of the body. hmmmm I tend to think sometimes we don't have a clue about the HS or TandT. doctrine aahhhh proper doctrine would not exhort the church would it....
Carpenter
08-04-2008, 09:02 PM
I just love this HS that never teaches doctrine to the church. I mean why would the HS not want to TEACH us or bring ALL things to the church to make unity of the body. hmmmm I tend to think sometimes we don't have a clue about the HS or TandT. doctrine aahhhh proper doctrine would not exhort the church would it....
So are you saying that unless the Holy Ghost teaches the oneness doctrine to the Trinitarians, their tongues cannot be genuine?
I have heard it said that God will NOT dwell in a dirty temple...meaning that those without the truth are dirty and their tongues are not real.
Is this what you meant?
Carpenter
08-04-2008, 09:03 PM
lol well I still want to know the answer
I was excommunicated because of my indifference.
:D
How's that?
Carpenter
08-04-2008, 09:03 PM
I asked a similar question to an aunt of mine several years ago, in reference to a "Charismatic" lady who gave tongues and interpretation in our church when we were without a pastor. Her answer - God used a donkey to speak in the Bible - He can use any vessel. I thought her answer was unique.
I think that answer was ignorant...
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 09:17 PM
I attended a trinitarian Pentecostal church yesterday where there was a tongues and interpretion at the end of the worship portion of the service. The church is a medium sized church of about 600 people and has been around for about 90 years. They are self ascribed "Pentecasual" in that they don't demonstrate alot of public displays of what is normally considered Pentecostal style worship and prayer. While I've seen speaking in tongues, the practice of spiritual gifts and such in a small group or one-on-one setting I've not seen it in the public service. So it was a out of the ordinary for this tongues and interpretation to happen as it did. I say all that to set the context so that it is understood that there isn't pressure on people to 'perform' or act 'spiritual' as I've seen in some Pentecostal circles which seems to produce some wack jobs and many 'false' events. If it happens in this church it is generally the real deal.
The lady who spoke out was an elderly lady with a lovely German accent. She rolled her R's and everything. It was pretty cool. She spoke the tongues and then the pastor had everyone sit down and explained to visitors what was going on. He talked about the importance of this gift and asked for people to speak up of they felt they had the interpretation. Nobody volunteered. He sensed that the elderly lady had the interpretation and asked her if she had the message and she did and spoke it out clearly and strongly. It was very powerful, and everything she said was biblically based as far as content and it had an edifying and exhortive effect on the congregation. Ironically the title of the sermon was "Pentecost - The most important event of the church!". It was obviously a God moment for the church and not contrived.
As one whose roots are in OPism I tuned into something that most of them probably didn't realize. As she spoke it was clear that it was the Holy Spirit speaking and she referred a couple of times to "Jesus" and "The Father" in the third person and it was clear they were menat to understood as an something other than than her or the one speaking through her. Had this happened in an OP church it would have been disconcerting for many OP's present as it obviously had a trinitarian perspective.
Ok, so here are my questions. First of all what is your reaction to this spiritual event happening in a trinitarian church? Second, what do you think about the trinitarian flavor of the message? A follow-up to that would be how much do you think our personal theology effects our 'interpretations' of tongues both in the verbal offering of the interpreation as well as the mental processing of those who hear it?
My honest opinion is the tongues were as false as their phoney doctrine. :)
My honest opinion is the tongues were as false as their phoney doctrine. :)
I am just shocked that this is your position!:club
(saw it coming from the first post on this thread!)
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 09:21 PM
I just love this HS that never teaches doctrine to the church. I mean why would the HS not want to TEACH us or bring ALL things to the church to make unity of the body. hmmmm I tend to think sometimes we don't have a clue about the HS or TandT. doctrine aahhhh proper doctrine would not exhort the church would it....
You got it! The Holy Ghost is supposed to be the Spirit of Truth? Right?
The Spirit of Truth will lead you into ALL Truth! But when it's around a bunch of three person God squad members it just leaves them as they are.
tongues and interpretation in a Trinitarian church, yeah right.
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 09:23 PM
I am just shocked that this is your position!:club
(saw it coming from the first post on this thread!)
This shocks you as much as someone telling you that Honda is a Japanese motorcycle company. :)
Carpenter
08-04-2008, 09:24 PM
You got it! The Holy Ghost is supposed to be the Spirit of Truth? Right?
The Spirit of Truth will lead you into ALL Truth! But when it's around a bunch of three person God squad members it just leaves them as they are.
tongues and interpretation in a Trinitarian church, yeah right.
What about my comment about attributing the Holy things of God to another being equivalent to blasphemy. Is that not the case here?
TRFrance
08-04-2008, 09:26 PM
You got it! The Holy Ghost is supposed to be the Spirit of Truth? Right?
The Spirit of Truth will lead you into ALL Truth! But when it's around a bunch of three person God squad members it just leaves them as they are.
tongues and interpretation in a Trinitarian church, yeah right.
Bro Benincasa,
I would choose my words real carefully if I were you.
Who are you to say with certainty that God would never give tongues and interpretation in a Trinitarian church?
You got it! The Holy Ghost is supposed to be the Spirit of Truth? Right?
The Spirit of Truth will lead you into ALL Truth! But when it's around a bunch of three person God squad members it just leaves them as they are.
tongues and interpretation in a Trinitarian church, yeah right.
EB, I've witnessed this happen in an AOG church and it was the real deal, Bro. Be careful about what you call phony.
This shocks you as much as someone telling you that Honda is a Japanese motorcycle company. :)
Yamaha is finally bringing their "sport" 500cc scooter to the USA for the 2009 model year. It sure would look nice sitting in my garage next to my 1300VTX retro cruiser but I just checked and my wife said I can't spend $8000 on a scooter. Rats!
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 09:33 PM
What about my comment about attributing the Holy things of God to another being equivalent to blasphemy. Is that not the case here?
Sorry, but don't mix the Pharisees calling Jesus a devil (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mar%203:22-29;&version=9;)with someone speaking false tongues.
I just love this HS that never teaches doctrine to the church. I mean why would the HS not want to TEACH us or bring ALL things to the church to make unity of the body. hmmmm I tend to think sometimes we don't have a clue about the HS or TandT. doctrine aahhhh proper doctrine would not exhort the church would it....
Why didn't God simply tell Saul that he needed to get baptized, while he was on the road to Damacus? He told him a man would tell him what he needed to do. There are some things God has chosen to have man do, Brother. Just a little something for you to think about.
Carpenter
08-04-2008, 09:34 PM
Bro Benincasa,
I would choose my words real carefully if I were you.
Who are you to say with certainty that God would never give tongues and interpretation in a Trinitarian church?
EB is gone, he tossed in a match and took off, fortunately his match landed in a glass of milk.
What say ye there Benny-casa, pretty heavy stuff...
Carpenter
08-04-2008, 09:35 PM
Sorry, but don't mix the Pharisees calling Jesus a devil (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mar%203:22-29;&version=9;)with someone speaking false tongues.
Who is the pharasee in this context? The Trinnytarians?
So you cannot and never ever would consider that a Trinnytarian could be used in the gifts of the spirit and that their tongues as of a fire are always false?
Interesting stuff EB
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 09:37 PM
Yamaha is finally bringing their "sport" 500cc scooter to the USA for the 2009 model year. It sure would look nice sitting in my garage next to my 1300VTX retro cruiser but I just checked and my wife said I can't spend $8000 on a scooter. Rats!
Please don't buy that thing. Please.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o304/Undyingsoul1/2008-TMAX.jpg
Ugly looking grasshopper bike. :(
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 09:38 PM
Who is the pharasee in this context? The Trinnytarians?
So you cannot and never ever would consider that a Trinnytarian could be used in the gifts of the spirit and that their tongues as of a fire are always false?
Interesting stuff EB
Luke nailed it, if they have the Spirit of Truth He would guide them in all Truth, and not parlor tricks.
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 09:41 PM
Bro Benincasa,
I would choose my words real carefully if I were you.
I do, always. Trinitrains are NOT saved, they need to get saved.
Who are you to say with certainty that God would never give tongues and interpretation in a Trinitarian church?
Mormons believe in tongues, are they speaking as God gives the utterance?
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 09:42 PM
EB, I've witnessed this happen in an AOG church and it was the real deal, Bro. Be careful about what you call phony.
There's our measure of Truth, what you witness Bro.
False Godhead doctrine and false tongues.
Please don't buy that thing. Please.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o304/Undyingsoul1/2008-TMAX.jpg
Ugly looking grasshopper bike. :(
I loved riding my wifes 260cc Chinese scooter I had bought her a few years ago. They take getting used to but are a blast.
You are an ethnocentric motorcycle snob! I do like the American made Victory's and in particular the Vision.
Carpenter
08-04-2008, 09:44 PM
Luke nailed it, if they have the Spirit of Truth He would guide them in all Truth, and not parlor tricks.
So you are saying that Trinnytarian folks who are void of truth need a Holy Ghost revelation in order to be brought to the truth, however, the Holy Spirit cannot speak through a Trinnytarian because he doesn't have truth?
You are creating an untenable situation for these folks, what must they do, rely on YOU to lead them? How can you, you are too busy preaching to the choir on Sunday morning and Sunday and Wednesday night.
Please don't buy that thing. Please.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o304/Undyingsoul1/2008-TMAX.jpg
Ugly looking grasshopper bike. :(
That's a pretty slick lookin scooter, Bro. Matterwitchu? :snapout
Carpenter
08-04-2008, 09:44 PM
There's our measure of Truth, what you witness Bro.
False Godhead doctrine and false tongues.
Oh man, I hope God disturbs your sleep tonight.
Carpenter
08-04-2008, 09:45 PM
I loved riding my wifes 260cc Chinese scooter I had bought her a few years ago. They take getting used to but are a blast.
You are an ethnocentric motorcycle snob! I do like the American made Victory's and in particular the Vision.
...like a bug on a windshield of an SUV. These things are catching on in Denver on the main roads, scary as all get out if you ask me.
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 09:50 PM
Do we have some "Trinitarian Enablers" among us?
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o304/Undyingsoul1/triad.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o304/Undyingsoul1/brahma.jpg
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 09:53 PM
I loved riding my wifes 260cc Chinese scooter I had bought her a few years ago. They take getting used to but are a blast.
You are an ethnocentric motorcycle snob! I do like the American made Victory's and in particular the Vision.
Listen I appreaciate all motorcycles, but for a grown man who already owns a big twin, you don't need that scooter. You have the chinese scooter be happy with that. Don't waste your money.
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 09:54 PM
Oh man, I hope God disturbs your sleep tonight.
Brother, my sleep is sweet. I love truth and hope the three god crew will come to know the Truth in Acts 2:38 before it's too late.
I can see a scooter for city type of driving, but I wouldn't get on one to ride the highways. It's bad enough fighting the draft from opposing traffic on something like a 650. One of those scooters would simply be blown off the road with a semi coming from the opposite direction at 70 mph.
Carpenter
08-04-2008, 09:58 PM
Do we have some "Trinitarian Enablers" among us?
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o304/Undyingsoul1/triad.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o304/Undyingsoul1/brahma.jpg
Do we have omnicient men here who think they can dictate how and through whom God can move??
http://www.juliebrinkley.com/BrinkleysBest/PoetryBlog/0922A1A5-6EF5-4639-86D3-
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 10:00 PM
So you are saying that Trinnytarian folks who are void of truth need a Holy Ghost revelation in order to be brought to the truth, however, the Holy Spirit cannot speak through a Trinnytarian because he doesn't have truth?
Spirit of Truth guides into ALL Truth. Not some truths.
You are creating an untenable situation for these folks,
Weak cop out. Teach the Truth instead of being a milk toast enabler.
what must they do, rely on YOU to lead them?
So now to prove your agenda you do away with preachers? So how will they hear without a preacher? Your arguments are weak, and sorry.
How can you, you are too busy preaching to the choir on Sunday morning and Sunday and Wednesday night.
Sunday and Thursday night, and Bible study all the rest of the week.
So, how's your silent witness going Carp?
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 10:02 PM
Do we have omnicient men here who think they can dictate how and through whom God can move??
We have those who love Truth and who are willing to stand for it.
Deal with it!
TRFrance
08-04-2008, 10:05 PM
If I remember correctly what I've read, during the Pentecostal outpouring in the early 1900's (Azusa Street revival, etc. )there were tongues and interpretations often in those churches, even though the vast majority of them had no idea what Oneness even was.
As time went by, some of those people later became Oneness believers. But God was among them even before they came to understanding of Oneness and Acts 2:38.
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 10:06 PM
I can see a scooter for city type of driving, but I wouldn't get on one to ride the highways.
CC1 I thinks wants to use the scooter for around town. He has the Honda, what more could he want except maybe the new Sportster that looks like an XR750. :)
It's bad enough fighting the draft from opposing traffic on something like a 650. One of those scooters would simply be blown off the road with a semi coming from the opposite direction at 70 mph.
A semi will make any bike move, those scooters are not what I would call a cross country machine.
Carpenter
08-04-2008, 10:07 PM
Spirit of Truth guides into ALL Truth. Not some truths.
Weak cop out. Teach the Truth instead of being a milk toast enabler.
So now to prove your agenda you do away with preachers? So how will they hear without a preacher? Your arguments are weak, and sorry.
Sunday and Thursday night, and Bible study all the rest of the week.
So, how's your silent witness going Carp?
Well, one, I would never advocate doing without a preacher.
Secondly, I just can't get over how you a mortal man with a finite understanding of the abstract, who uses less than 10% of his brain capacity would have the audacity to think you can dictate to Almighty God how and where he can manifest himself.
The responsibility is up to you to prove that it is NOT God more so than it is on me to prove that it is because all of the points in question have been satisfied in terms of biblical precident.
Carpenter
08-04-2008, 10:08 PM
If I remember correctly what I've read, during the Pentecostal outpouring in the early 1900's (Azusa Street revival, etc. )there were tongues and interpretations often in those churches, even though the vast majority of them had no idea what Oneness even was.
As time went by, some of those people later became Oneness believers. But God was among them even before they came to understanding of Oneness and Acts 2:38.
ooooh, great point!
Carpenter
08-04-2008, 10:09 PM
We have those who love Truth and who are willing to stand for it.
Deal with it!
...and what does standing for it mean...especially in this context?
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 10:10 PM
If I remember correctly what I've read, during the Pentecostal outpouring in the early 1900's (Azusa Street revival, etc. )there were tongues and interpretations often in those churches, even though the vast majority of them had no idea what Oneness even was.
Were you there? I heard the Azusa Street revival was a snake pit. You need to study that one out a little more.
As time went by, some of those people later became Oneness believers.
You mean the ones who were lead by the Spirit and became sons of God.
But God was among them even before they came to understanding of Oneness and Acts 2:38.
How do you know that? Based on what?
How about those MORMONS, they believe in tongues, do they also have the Holy Ghost?
I can see a scooter for city type of driving, but I wouldn't get on one to ride the highways. It's bad enough fighting the draft from opposing traffic on something like a 650. One of those scooters would simply be blown off the road with a semi coming from the opposite direction at 70 mph.
When my wife had her 260cc scooter I rode it on the interstate at 70 mph several different times. It is not as stable as a motorcycle but hers had 13" wheels which is pretty big for a scooter and the TMax I want has 15" wheels.
Once you get used to the fact that scooters are not near as stable as a motorcycle they are a blast to fling around curves, etc. I really miss my wifes. However I want one bigger like this 500cc TMAX.
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 10:12 PM
...and what does standing for it mean...especially in this context?
Those who are not compromisers and think everything that says Jesus has the Holy Ghost. Remember Jesus said He NEVER knew them.
Sister Alvear
08-04-2008, 10:13 PM
We need to be very careful what we say... and how we say it.
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 10:13 PM
When my wife had her 260cc scooter I rode it on the interstate at 70 mph several different times. It is not as stable as a motorcycle but hers had 13" wheels which is pretty big for a scooter and the TMax I want has 15" wheels.
Once you get used to the fact that scooters are not near as stable as a motorcycle they are a blast to fling around curves, etc. I really miss my wifes. However I want one bigger like this 500cc TMAX.
Want to go around curves buy a GSXer. :)
EB,
Are you denying the Holy Ghost outpouring at Azusa and other instances among trinitarian people?
If so did the Oneness pioneers who started out as trinitarian Pentecostals only have a fake Holy Ghost until they became Oneness?
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 10:17 PM
EB,
Are you denying the Holy Ghost outpouring at Azusa and other instances among trinitarian people?
If so did the Oneness pioneers who started out as trinitarian Pentecostals only have a fake Holy Ghost until they became Oneness?
Brother I know that those who had the Holy Ghost in the Bible had Truth.
I don't measure Truth with a group who went through stages.
Let's stick with the Book. Paul asked have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?
When my wife had her 260cc scooter I rode it on the interstate at 70 mph several different times. It is not as stable as a motorcycle but hers had 13" wheels which is pretty big for a scooter and the TMax I want has 15" wheels.
Once you get used to the fact that scooters are not near as stable as a motorcycle they are a blast to fling around curves, etc. I really miss my wifes. However I want one bigger like this 500cc TMAX.
I am with EB on this one. If you already have a motorcycle, why not just use it? It is a very heavy bike? I know I would take that into consideration before riding a motorcycle in stop and go traffic all the tiime.
Brother I know that those who had the Holy Ghost in the Bible had Truth.
I don't measure Truth with a group who went through stages.
Let's stick with the Book. Paul asked have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?
I've got some shocking news for you, EB. Are you sitting down, 'cause this one's gonna hurt. Your history, as a modern day tongue talking Apostolic, is rooted in what happened on Azusa Street to a group of trinitarians. I know, I know, you are probably gasping for breath because of the shock, but the truth is the truth, and this 100 year outpouring of the Holy Ghost started among trinitarian folk. If it's too much for you to handle, and you need to log out, I will understand. :tease
I am with EB on this one. If you already have a motorcycle, why not just use it? It is a very heavy bike? I know I would take that into consideration before riding a motorcycle in stop and go traffic all the tiime.
I only ride for pleasure. It is all about risk management and I am not willing to expose myself to the amount of risk involved in riding my motorcycle as a daily driver.
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 10:24 PM
Well, one, I would never advocate doing without a preacher.
Then what's the dysfunction here? People need to get on track. You don't assume they have what you have if they are all fouled up.
Don't discount what little they have, but bring them all the way through.
Secondly, I just can't get over how you a mortal man with a finite understanding of the abstract, who uses less than 10% of his brain capacity would have the audacity to think you can dictate to Almighty God how and where he can manifest himself.
Paul planted Apollos watered but God gave the increase, you need to preach it to them. Don't leave them thinking they are saved when they are not. You will have the blood on your hands.
The responsibility is up to you to prove that it is NOT God more so than it is on me to prove that it is because all of the points in question have been satisfied in terms of biblical precident.
Cop out once again. They don't have it the Bible way, friend.
Prove it with the scripture, the Jews believed in only One God and not three. They saw no divisions in God, therefore they never taught three persons.
Three person teaching didn't show up until the 4th century, and it was heresy. Do MORMONS and Catholics have the Holy Ghost?
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 10:28 PM
I've got some shocking news for you, EB. Are you sitting down, 'cause this one's gonna hurt. Your history, as a modern day tongue talking Apostolic, is rooted in what happened on Azusa Street to a group of trinitarians. I know, I know, you are probably gasping for breath because of the shock, but the truth is the truth, and this 100 year outpouring of the Holy Ghost started among trinitarian folk. If it's too much for you to handle, and you need to log out, I will understand. :tease
So how old are you Bro? Brother you weren't there. What I heard is that Azusa Street was like the Brownsville Revival. My people were BEFORE AZUSA (http://www.geocities.com/upcpitt/Articles/azusa1.html).
I only ride for pleasure. It is all about risk management and I am not willing to expose myself to the amount of risk involved in riding my motorcycle as a daily driver.
Ahhhhhh. That makes sense. I lived in Los Angeles and rode a motorcycle exclusively for about 3 months. As much fun as riding a bike can be, it will definitely get on your nerves after awhile, especially when you ride one in city traffic all the time. Plus, it's definitely more dangerous that way.
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 10:30 PM
Spirit of Truth will lead a person into all Truth.
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 10:31 PM
I only ride for pleasure. It is all about risk management and I am not willing to expose myself to the amount of risk involved in riding my motorcycle as a daily driver.
Risk mangement? Brother it's a scooter, you have a big bike, it's more a risk being on that overgrown minibike.
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 10:33 PM
Ahhhhhh. That makes sense. I lived in Los Angeles and rode a motorcycle exclusively for about 3 months. As much fun as riding a bike can be, it will definitely get on your nerves after awhile, especially when you ride one in city traffic all the time. Plus, it's definitely more dangerous that way.
I rode a Harley Davidson 1948 Panhead, in New York, and to Bridgeport Conn, every weekend. No worries. Brother CC1 STAY OFF THE SCOOTER. PLEEEASSE!
I rode a Harley Davidson 1948 Panhead, in New York, and to Bridgeport Conn, every weekend. No worries. Brother CC1 STAY OFF THE SCOOTER. PLEEEASSE!
That's only because you're such a manly man, EB! :lol Us regular guys get tired of being on that bike all the time. :D
berkeley
08-04-2008, 10:35 PM
Wow... just... wow!
TRFrance
08-04-2008, 10:36 PM
Were you there?
I wasn't there any more than you were.
I heard the Azusa Street revival was a snake pit.
You heard that it was a snake pit? From who? Do you know anyone that was there, that told you this? Or is this just hear-say?
You need to study that one out a little more.
You want me to study it more? Study what exactly? You mean study books on it written by Oneness pioneers who were there? What I said about tongues and interpretation is something that's been written about by Oneness and UPC pioneers who were there.
But wouldn't those be the same writings you'd end up studying, if you were going to look into the issue yourself? If not, what exactly would you be studying? And where in your studies did it say Azusa was a "snake pit"?
You mean the ones who were lead by the Spirit and became sons of God.
Led by the Spirit. Exactly. The same Spirit you just implied wasn't genuine in their experience. Yes, they were led by that Spirit. Sounds like you're contradicting yourself and not even noticing it.
If you know even a little Pentecostal history, you'll know that many of the pioneers of the UPC &Oneness Pentecost received the HG in Trinitarian churches before they came to Oneness and Jesus name baptism. Maybe now you want to tell us they didn't have the 'real' Holy Ghost.
How about those MORMONS, they believe in tongues, do they also have the Holy Ghost?
I've studied enough on Mormonism to know that speaking in tongues is not part of mainstream Mormon doctrine and practice. At least get your facts right sir.
I don't care how big your bike is. If you get hit, even by the smallest car, you are going to eat some pavement.
TRFrance
08-04-2008, 10:39 PM
Then what's the dysfunction here? People need to get on track. You don't assume they have what you have if they are all fouled up.
Don't discount what little they have, but bring them all the way through.
But that seems to be exactly what you're doing... discounting what they have.
Scott Hutchinson
08-04-2008, 10:44 PM
I knew an old UC pastor,I don't know it he is still alive or not but he did belong to the Cleveland,TN church of God before he was Jesus Name.
This brother went to a OP campmeeting shortly after he saw the light on oneness and Jesus name Baptism,a man who preaching said that Trintarians speaking in tongues was of the devil.
This brother spoke to the brother who was preaching after the service was over,and he said brother the same Holy Ghost I received in The Church of God is the same Holy Ghost that led me into the Jesus Name revelation.
TRFrance
08-04-2008, 10:45 PM
Wow... just... wow!
Yeah. What he said. ^^^^
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 10:46 PM
But that seems to be exactly what you're doing... discounting what they have.
I have taught countless Bible studies and had it happen time and time again.
The Trinitarian would say....
Are YOU saying I'm NOT SAVED?
When all I was doing was having them read the scriptures. They would get the light buld pop over their head. I discount what experiences that they have had, but I will show them they MUST be BORN AGAIN.
They get baptized in Jesus name, and come to know Jesus as the MIGHTY GOD in Christ.
TRFrance
08-04-2008, 10:47 PM
I knew an old UC pastor,I don't know it he is still alive or not but he did belong to the Cleveland,TN church of God before he was Jesus Name.
This brother went to a OP campmeeting shortly after he saw the light on oneness and Jesus name Baptism,a man who preaching said that Trintarians speaking in tongues was of the devil.
This brother spoke to the brother who was preaching after the service was over,and he said brother the same Holy Ghost I received in The Church of God is the same Holy Ghost that led me into the Jesus Name revelation.
Thank God for being merciful when his people say grievous things against His Spirit.
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 10:48 PM
That's only because you're such a manly man, EB! :lol Us regular guys get tired of being on that bike all the time. :D
Tired? I looking to get the new KTM 550 MX Quad Racer. I never get tired. :)
berkeley
08-04-2008, 10:48 PM
I know some people who received the Holy Ghost in trinitarian churches, only to be LED OF GOD to the Apostolic church MANY YEARS LATER!!
I also know trinitarians who have the Holy Ghost who "see" baptism in Jesus name but would rather stay with their traditions.
TRFrance
08-04-2008, 10:50 PM
I have taught countless Bible studies and had it happen time and time again.
The Trinitarian would say....
Are YOU saying I'm NOT SAVED?
When all I was doing was having them read the scriptures. They would get the light buld pop over their head. I discount what experiences that they have had, but I will show them they MUST be BORN AGAIN.
They get baptized in Jesus name, and come to know Jesus as the MIGHTY GOD in Christ.
But you seem to be implying that the Holy Ghost baptism they've received (before they recognize and accept Jesus name baptism) is not the real Holy Ghost.
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 10:50 PM
Thank God for being merciful when his people say grievous things against His Spirit.
What about Mormons who speak in tongues? Or Catholics who speak in tongues. The list is long Brothers, you need to consider what you all are teaching. Spirit of Truth brings them into all Truth, not just some truths.
TRFrance
08-04-2008, 10:51 PM
I know some people who received the Holy Ghost in trinitarian churches, only to be LED OF GOD to the Apostolic church MANY YEARS LATER!!
I also know trinitarians who have the Holy Ghost who "see" baptism in Jesus name but would rather stay with their traditions.
Apparently some Apostolics feel like such people didn't receive the real Holy Ghost.
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 10:52 PM
I know some people who received the Holy Ghost in trinitarian churches, only to be LED OF GOD to the Apostolic church MANY YEARS LATER!!
I also know trinitarians who have the Holy Ghost who "see" baptism in Jesus name but would rather stay with their traditions.
Tight is the path and narrow the gate. Sad but true, that many are called but few are chosen. Those who never come out, never had anything to begin with.
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 10:55 PM
But you seem to be implying that the Holy Ghost baptism they've received (before they recognize and accept Jesus name baptism) is not the real Holy Ghost.
Allow me to say this again. The Spirit of Truth guides us into all Truth.
Not some truths, and if they NEVER come out, they never had anything to start with. Try helping these people get saved, instead of letting them go to their graves lost as a potato.
Scott Hutchinson
08-04-2008, 10:55 PM
This brother whom I knew was as UC as they came,he was agains't wrist watches and such.His son has the church now,they are good people.
This man was strict when he was Trinity.
I knew this Elder's dad as well,his elderly father used to run the aisles and shout alot,one time in a service he turned around at looked at everybody and he hollered I got the Holy Ghost don't yall ?
That man was in his eighties shouting like that.
TRFrance
08-04-2008, 10:57 PM
What about Mormons who speak in tongues? Or Catholics who speak in tongues. The list is long Brothers, you need to consider what you all are teaching. Spirit of Truth brings them into all Truth, not just some truths.
Nobody is talking about Catholics or Mormons. You're the one who keeps bringing that up. How about if we just stick to the topic at hand? Going back to the original post on this thread, what is being talked about here... isn't it Trinitarian Pentecostals? So why do you keep talking about Mormons?
So back to the topic....what about the many AofG pastors and preachers who saw the Oneness and then re-baptized their whole churches, becoming Oneness/Acts 2:38 churches?
You can consider that a rhetorical question if you like. I don't think we're going to accomplish much by going around in circles on this.
Take care.
berkeley
08-04-2008, 11:04 PM
Apparently some Apostolics feel like such people didn't receive the real Holy Ghost.
I think this is the case most of the time. Or they can't be led because tongues is nothing more than a high.
And.. the rest may be some other spirit. But, probably very few would fall into this category.
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 11:06 PM
Nobody is talking about Catholics or Mormons.
So how much false doctrine does one need to exclude them from the same Holy Ghost that the Trinitarians are supposed to have? Come on Brother, the tares grow up with the wheat. You need to be careful who you walk into heaven. Warn them don't enable them.
You're the one who keeps bringing that up. How about if we just stick to the topic at hand?
You see Brother, you see the Trinitarian as saved as you are and the Mormon as lost as a rock. Just because of a label that is Pentecostal. Brother wash the blood from your hands and teach a Trinitarian the good way.
Going back to the original post on this thread, what is being talked about here... isn't it Trinitarian Pentecostals? So why do you keep talking about Mormons?
Mormons say they also speak with tongues, especially those who are not with the mainstream LDS. So, do they have the Holy Ghost?
So back to the topic....what about the many AofG pastors and preachers who saw the Oneness and then re-baptized their whole churches, becoming Oneness/Acts 2:38 churches?
Like I said, if they never come out of the false to come into the Truth, they never had anything in the first place. I think I explained that numerous times.
The Spirit of Truth guides us into all Truth.
Evang.Benincasa
08-04-2008, 11:07 PM
I think this is the case most of the time. Or they can't be led because tongues is nothing more than a high.
And.. the rest may be some other spirit. But, probably very few would fall into this category.
If someone remains in their Trinitarian mess they never had the Holy Ghost to begin with. The Spirit of Truth brings us into all Truth.
berkeley
08-04-2008, 11:12 PM
If someone remains in their Trinitarian mess they never had the Holy Ghost to begin with. The Spirit of Truth brings us into all Truth.
Does Preterism fall into "all truth" ?
TRFrance
08-04-2008, 11:13 PM
....what about the many AofG pastors and preachers who saw the Oneness and then re-baptized their whole churches, becoming Oneness/Acts 2:38 churches?
Like I said, if they never come out of the false to come into the Truth, they never had anything in the first place. I think I explained that numerous times.
The Spirit of Truth guides us into all Truth.
This is where you contradict yourself again.
In the scenario I just mentioned... if those people were to tell you that they had tongues and interpretation in their church before they came to Oneness truth you would say its impossible, since you dont think that can happen.
But its not for you to say what God can or cant do among a group of people that have his Spirit... trinitarian or not.
EB, I think you are on very dangerous ground when you start deciding who does and who doesn't have the Holy Ghost. With some people, it's obvious they are faking, but do you really want to take the chance on saying someone who does have the Holy Ghost has a fake? That would amount to calling the Holy Ghost evil, Brother. Scary thought. If you want to attack doctrine, I am willing to go along for the ride with you. But I will get off the roller coaster ride when it comes to the Holy Ghost.
berkeley
08-04-2008, 11:29 PM
Does Preterism fall into "all truth" ?
bump for EB
Praxeas
08-05-2008, 04:20 AM
I just love this HS that never teaches doctrine to the church. I mean why would the HS not want to TEACH us or bring ALL things to the church to make unity of the body. hmmmm I tend to think sometimes we don't have a clue about the HS or TandT. doctrine aahhhh proper doctrine would not exhort the church would it....
Actually edification or encouragement is often in the form of telling people to trust in God to get them through some trials not "thou shalt reject preterism and then thou shalt do well"
Remember the prophecies in Acts were not about doctrine
Praxeas
08-05-2008, 04:22 AM
You got it! The Holy Ghost is supposed to be the Spirit of Truth? Right?
The Spirit of Truth will lead you into ALL Truth! But when it's around a bunch of three person God squad members it just leaves them as they are.
tongues and interpretation in a Trinitarian church, yeah right.
Before our brethren were booted out of the AOG...before they got the revelation of Jesus name baptism and the Oneness...was their tongues fake? Where the gifts in operation all fake?
Praxeas
08-05-2008, 04:23 AM
Sorry, but don't mix the Pharisees calling Jesus a devil (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mar%203:22-29;&version=9;)with someone speaking false tongues.
Do they have the Spirit or another spirit? HOw are they having these tongues and interpretations?
Praxeas
08-05-2008, 04:26 AM
I do, always. Trinitrains are NOT saved, they need to get saved.
Mormons believe in tongues, are they speaking as God gives the utterance?
same can be true for any OP believer
Praxeas
08-05-2008, 04:30 AM
Were you there? I heard the Azusa Street revival was a snake pit. You need to study that one out a little more.
wow. And all this time I thought EB was a Pentecostal
You mean the ones who were lead by the Spirit and became sons of God.
So Trinitarians CAN receive the Spirit while they are still Trinitarian and later be lead to the truth?
How do you know that? Based on what?
How about those MORMONS, they believe in tongues, do they also have the Holy Ghost?Mormons do not believe in tongues. They have history where they claim early Mormons years ago spoke in tongues, but they do not speak in tongues other than missionaries claiming learning a new language to go to India or wherever they are going is learning a new langauge, but not tongues like we are discussing
Praxeas
08-05-2008, 04:33 AM
So how old are you Bro? Brother you weren't there. What I heard is that Azusa Street was like the Brownsville Revival. My people were BEFORE AZUSA (http://www.geocities.com/upcpitt/Articles/azusa1.html).
How old are YOU? Where YOU there? WHO did you hear this from? EB your history has a lot of holes in it. Your people before Asuza did not form a church that existed through Asuza. Your people, the Oneness movement came OUT of those very people
Praxeas
08-05-2008, 04:36 AM
I know some people who received the Holy Ghost in trinitarian churches, only to be LED OF GOD to the Apostolic church MANY YEARS LATER!!
I also know trinitarians who have the Holy Ghost who "see" baptism in Jesus name but would rather stay with their traditions.
There seems to be a disconnect here. On the one hand EB makes it sound like God won't give the Spirit to a three god pagan until they are Oneness and then on the other hand talk as if he will so they can be led to teh truth.
TRFrance
08-05-2008, 05:51 AM
I just love this HS that never teaches doctrine to the church. I mean why would the HS not want to TEACH us or bring ALL things to the church to make unity of the body. hmmmm I tend to think sometimes we don't have a clue about the HS or TandT. doctrine aahhhh proper doctrine would not exhort the church would it....
Actually edification or encouragement is often in the form of telling people to trust in God to get them through some trials not "thou shalt reject preterism and then thou shalt do well"
Remember the prophecies in Acts were not about doctrine
Well said. According to New Testament teaching and example, Tongues & Interpretation and Prophecy are for edification and encouragement, not for doctrinal instruction.
Before our brethren were booted out of the AOG...before they got the revelation of Jesus name baptism and the Oneness...was their tongues fake? Where the gifts in operation all fake?
So far I have not seen EB answer a direct question like this directly. He has been asked this several times.
My version was asking him if he thought the Oneness Pentecostal Pioneers did not have the real Holy Ghost when they were trinitarian Pentecostals before they heard and believed the Oneness Jesus name message.
Evang.Benincasa
08-05-2008, 07:41 AM
So far I have not seen EB answer a direct question like this directly. He has been asked this several times.
My version was asking him if he thought the Oneness Pentecostal Pioneers did not have the real Holy Ghost when they were trinitarian Pentecostals before they heard and believed the Oneness Jesus name message.
Brother the early Pentecostals believed they were saved when they repented.
Read "United We Stand" Howard Goss, W. T. Witherspoon, and W. C. Chapman all believed in salvation at repentance.
Sorry to break this late news to you guys and gals, but those individuals weren't saved until they came out of the darkness into His marvelous light.
There are those who are on a learning curve and need to come forward and get on track. That is the reason that we should be busy at the Father's business, instead of our own self serving foolishness and get over ourselves and warn those who don't believe in SALVATIONAL TRUTHS as ONE GOD, JESUS NAME BAPTISM, and the IN FILLING OF THE HOLY GHOST with TONGUES.
In Jesus name
Brother Benincasa
Evang.Benincasa
08-05-2008, 07:49 AM
This is where you contradict yourself again.
In the scenario I just mentioned... if those people were to tell you that they had tongues and interpretation in their church before they came to Oneness truth you would say its impossible, since you dont think that can happen.
But its not for you to say what God can or cant do among a group of people that have his Spirit... trinitarian or not.
No contradiction, Brother, if someone receives the Holy Ghost it's because they are sincere and are moving forward, not backward. They come out of darkness into His marvelous light. This is the place where you consider why the Christianity is shot in the head in America. Why? Because they became Baptists and Charismatics and focused more on filling buildings than filling souls.
Listen if you are One God and another person believes in three seperate persons, isn't one the Truth and the other a LIE?
Is the issue of WHO JESUS IS, IMPORTANT to Jesus? Because it sure not important to Churchanity.
:ursofunny
Brother the early Pentecostals believed they were saved when they repented.
Read "United We Stand" Howard Goss, W. T. Witherspoon, and W. C. Chapman all believed in salvation at repentance.
Sorry to break this late news to you guys and gals, but those individuals weren't saved until they came out of the darkness into His marvelous light.
There are those who are on a learning curve and need to come forward and get on track. That is the reason that we should be busy at the Father's business, instead of our own self serving foolishness and get over ourselves and warn those who don't believe in SALVATIONAL TRUTHS as ONE GOD, JESUS NAME BAPTISM, and the IN FILLING OF THE HOLY GHOST with TONGUES.
In Jesus name
Brother Benincasa
You still didn't answer my question. You just acted like you were a Democrat politican who answers questoins with his talking points.
Evang.Benincasa
08-05-2008, 08:01 AM
EB, I think you are on very dangerous ground when you start deciding who does and who doesn't have the Holy Ghost.
My dear Brother, I'm safe as a baby in the arms of his mother.
Calling the profane holy and the holy profane is where Jesus raises an eyebrow.
Teach the Trinitarians the Truth and save them from a burning twisting hell.
With some people, it's obvious they are faking, but do you really want to take the chance on saying someone who does have the Holy Ghost has a fake?
I remember the old Church of God preachers who use to say that One God Pentecostals had demons instead of the Holy Ghost. Brother those people need to come into the Truth and get saved. Their Trinitarian baptism is as worthless as the Mormon baptism for the dead.
Warn them and wash the blood from your head and hands.
That would amount to calling the Holy Ghost evil, Brother.
That's a cop out Bro. Show me chapter and verse where any false prophet was called godly, or saved. Brother, the Apostle Peter rebukes them in 2 Peter 2 and Jesus rebukes them in Matt 23 .
Brother, stop enabling the lost and show them the light.
Scary thought.
Not as scary as condoning people to believe in a false godhead.
If you want to attack doctrine, I am willing to go along for the ride with you. But I will get off the roller coaster ride when it comes to the Holy Ghost.
What is Truth? Brother, this is why American youth think Christianity is shot in the head. No light, only gray.
:snapout
Evang.Benincasa
08-05-2008, 08:04 AM
You still didn't answer my question. You just acted like you were a Democrat politican who answers questoins with his talking points.
CC1 I answered you. Is your helmet getting too tight? Go back and read what I posted. Or maybe you need it written on a napkin in crayon. :ursofunny
Evang.Benincasa
08-05-2008, 08:11 AM
Before our brethren were booted out of the AOG...before they got the revelation of Jesus name baptism and the Oneness...was their tongues fake? Where the gifts in operation all fake?
Before our brethren were booted out of Assembly of Gods, they believed in salvation at repentance. Brother some of those men were Trinitarians and duelist who just believed in water baptism in the name of Jesus. Since they are long dead, who knows what they believe. Let's stick with the BOOK instead of your pet religious agenda.
It's funny how you all will blast standards but defend how a religious movement was formed. :ursofunny
CC1 I answered you. Is your helmet getting too tight? Go back and read what I posted. Or maybe you need it written on a napkin in crayon. :ursofunny
No, you need to go back and read my question. I did not ask you if they were "saved".
I asked you if you thought they did not have the real Holy Ghost when they were trinitarian Pentecostals before they heard the Jesus name message and accepted it.
Based on your answer I will probably have a followup question. Assuming you ever answer it.
Evang.Benincasa
08-05-2008, 08:12 AM
NEWS FLASH!
There were Apostolic Pentecostals Way Before Azusa Street!
Live with it!
Evang.Benincasa
08-05-2008, 08:18 AM
No, you need to go back and read my question. I did not ask you if they were "saved".
I asked you if you thought they did not have the real Holy Ghost when they were trinitarian Pentecostals before they heard the Jesus name message and accepted it.
Based on your answer I will probably have a followup question. Assuming you ever answer it.
Brother, I said that many of them believed in repentance only. Therefore they had no Spirit of Truth if they stayed in that mind set. Therefore if they continue in believing in a false belief concerning the Godhead or salvation they didn't have what you think they had. If a man or woman has the Spirit of Truth it will guide them into all Truth.
Do you need me to get my daughter's crayons? I have said this over and over, but since your beanie scooter helmet's strap is cutting off much needed oxygen from your brain, I had to say this all again.
I love you. :)
Evang.Benincasa
08-05-2008, 08:22 AM
Do they have the Spirit or another spirit? HOw are they having these tongues and interpretations?
How are they having these tongues and interpretation?
Hey! Sister Benincasa! Throw the Bible away here at AFF, now if any Tom, Dick or Harry, goes Homa ma shonda, CC1 rode in on a Honda! They got the real deal!
Good night!:ursofunny
America going down in flames!
Joel Olsteen speaks in tongues, is he saved?
Evang.Benincasa
08-05-2008, 08:23 AM
same can be true for any OP believer
No doubt Bro, but at least they have a better start than the clueless.
Try doing your job, and stop enabling the Trinitarians in their false sight of Jesus as a number two man.
TRFrance
08-05-2008, 08:37 AM
No contradiction, Brother, if someone receives the Holy Ghost it's because they are sincere and are moving forward, not backward. They come out of darkness into His marvelous light. This is the place where you consider why the Christianity is shot in the head in America. Why? Because they became Baptists and Charismatics and focused more on filling buildings than filling souls.
Fine, but you're still overlooking the very straightforward poInt I'm making. My point remains...
There are Trinitarians who are indeed "moving forward", as you yourself put it. A lot of them have Holy Ghost, but have an improper understanding of certain essential bible doctrines.
But it's not for you or me to say that God would never speak among in tongues and interpretation. And in my mind, it's approaching blasphemy to declare that such tongues/interpretation is not of God, but is demonic, as I've heard some suggest.
Evang.Benincasa
08-05-2008, 08:40 AM
wow. And all this time I thought EB was a Pentecostal
Oh I guess Azusa is your Council of Nicea? :ursofunny
So Trinitarians CAN receive the Spirit while they are still Trinitarian and later be lead to the truth?
Phillip asked the Ethiopian if he understood what he was reading. How will they hear without a preacher, so a preacher is sent to warn. Those who are in falsehood are lead out of that falsehood, by the Spirit of Truth. The Holy Ghost draws all men near, God draws all men that doesn't mean all HAVE the Holy Ghost.
Mormons do not believe in tongues.
Sorry Prax, but as ususal you are wrong. :)
They have history where they claim early Mormons years ago spoke in tongues,
That's why I specified the ones who are not mainstream. Thank you Prax, for backing up what I said.
but they do not speak in tongues other than missionaries claiming learning a new language to go to India or wherever they are going is learning a new langauge, but not tongues like we are discussing
They don't believe it's learning a language, they believe that they learn foreign languages through the Holy Ghost, but I guess you know all this first hand by all the Mormons you have Bible studied?
Evang.Benincasa
08-05-2008, 08:41 AM
Fine, but you're still overlooking the very straightforward poInt I'm making. My point remains...
There are Trinitarians who are indeed "moving forward", as you yourself put it. A lot of them have Holy Ghost, but have an improper understanding of certain essential bible doctrines.
But it's not for you or me to say that God would never speak among in tongues and interpretation. And in my mind, it's approaching blasphemy to declare that such tongues/interpretation is not of God, but is demonic, as I've heard some suggest.
Phillip asked the Ethiopian if he understood what he was reading. How will they hear without a preacher, so a preacher is sent to warn. Those who are in falsehood are lead out of that falsehood, by the Spirit of Truth. The Holy Ghost draws all men near, God draws all men that doesn't mean all HAVE the Holy Ghost.
Phillip asked the Ethiopian if he understood what he was reading. How will they hear without a preacher, so a preacher is sent to warn. Those who are in falsehood are lead out of that falsehood, by the Spirit of Truth. The Holy Ghost draws all men near, God draws all men that doesn't mean all HAVE the Holy Ghost.
I would say teach or guide would be better words for Phillip.
Brother, I said that many of them believed in repentance only. Therefore they had no Spirit of Truth if they stayed in that mind set. Therefore if they continue in believing in a false belief concerning the Godhead or salvation they didn't have what you think they had. If a man or woman has the Spirit of Truth it will guide them into all Truth.
Do you need me to get my daughter's crayons? I have said this over and over, but since your beanie scooter helmet's strap is cutting off much needed oxygen from your brain, I had to say this all again.
I love you. :)
You still have not answered the question. I find it amusing you refer to my intelligence and oxygen level when you have yet to answere a very simple question. I am not going to restate it because I have already asked it in as simple manner as possible.
You still have not answered the question. I find it amusing you refer to my intelligence and oxygen level when you have yet to answere a very simple question. I am not going to restate it because I have already asked it in as simple manner as possible.
I agree, I must need more oxygen myself, because I didn't see the answer either. I'm tired, that's my excuse if I missed it.
My dear Brother, I'm safe as a baby in the arms of his mother.
Calling the profane holy and the holy profane is where Jesus raises an eyebrow.
Teach the Trinitarians the Truth and save them from a burning twisting hell.
I remember the old Church of God preachers who use to say that One God Pentecostals had demons instead of the Holy Ghost. Brother those people need to come into the Truth and get saved. Their Trinitarian baptism is as worthless as the Mormon baptism for the dead.
Warn them and wash the blood from your head and hands.
That's a cop out Bro. Show me chapter and verse where any false prophet was called godly, or saved. Brother, the Apostle Peter rebukes them in 2 Peter 2 and Jesus rebukes them in Matt 23 .
Brother, stop enabling the lost and show them the light.
Not as scary as condoning people to believe in a false godhead.
What is Truth? Brother, this is why American youth think Christianity is shot in the head. No light, only gray.
:snapout
Thank you for your responses, but you completely dodged the issue. The point is that you have no business saying the Holy Ghost is fake because you really don't know for sure. All this talk of doctrine is fine and dandy, and I am with you on that, but taking a chance on calling the Holy Ghost fake is a huge no-no.
TRFrance
08-05-2008, 10:22 AM
Phillip asked the Ethiopian if he understood what he was reading. How will they hear without a preacher, so a preacher is sent to warn. Those who are in falsehood are lead out of that falsehood, by the Spirit of Truth. The Holy Ghost draws all men near, God draws all men that doesn't mean all HAVE the Holy Ghost.
Yes, I fully understand that not all men have the Holy Ghost...
But by your words are implying that those in Trinitarian churches who received the Holy Ghost baptism, speaking with other tongues, didnt really receive the same infililng of the Holy Ghost we got, and their speaking in tongues wasn't really from God.
Anyway, I've said enough on this. One day, whether in this life or the next, you'll see how very wrong you were on this issue.
Meanwhile, if you want to grieve the Holy Ghost with your words, you go right ahead and do it by yourself, sir. I'm done.
TRFrance
08-05-2008, 10:28 AM
You still have not answered the question. I find it amusing you refer to my intelligence and oxygen level when you have yet to answere a very simple question. I am not going to restate it because I have already asked it in as simple manner as possible.I agree, I must need more oxygen myself, because I didn't see the answer either. I'm tired, that's my excuse if I missed it.
Thank you for your responses, but you completely dodged the issue. The point is that you have no business saying the Holy Ghost is fake because you really don't know for sure. All this talk of doctrine is fine and dandy, and I am with you on that, but taking a chance on calling the Holy Ghost fake is a huge no-no.
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LOL!!! EB has sounded like one of Hillary's surrogates back when she was on the campaign trail. No matter what they were asked they spouted the campaigns line of the day even if it had nothing to do with the question.
Carpenter
08-05-2008, 04:10 PM
Benny casa did his pentecostal best to answer your question and I don't think he has the courage to come right out with it. Kind of like the preacher said, I didn't say that boy was going to hell but he sure is lost.
A_PoMo
08-05-2008, 06:45 PM
Kind of like the preacher said, I didn't say that boy was going to hell but he sure is lost.
:ursofunny I've had some of my OP friends and family say that about me! :ursofunny:ursofunny
This has been an interesting conversation so far.
If, as Bro. B says, the Spirit of Truth will lead people to all Truth then why don't more of these Trinitarian folk figure out the Oneness? If it's so 'obvious' then why don't more people have this 'revelation'? Does God hide Truth? To state that they aren't sincere or intellectually honest or are spiritual cowards of some sort is insulting and disingenuous and borders on complete ignorance of reality. It's nice to have pat answers when you're in a room full of fellow zealots. But when you're faced with the real world then reality has a way of shredding pat answers.
I spend most of my time around Trinitarians these days and I can honestly say that I've not met an OP in my life who was/is more sincere, humble, contrite, open-minded, and passionate about God and truth than many of my Trinitarian friends. I've spent considerable time on both sides of the fence and can tell you, as someone else already mentioned, it's the same Holy Spirit here as it is there.
If it's not, then I was deceived by God while on the OP side of the fence and never knew God there. Which seems curious because by Bro. B's standard I was saved because I believed in holiness standards, OP doctrine, thought that Trinitarians were going to hell, I spoke in tongues long and often, I was baptized in Jesus Name, and operated in the gifts of the Spirit. Did God decieve me? My passion for God hasn't changed except to grow over the years. I didn't change in that way and neither did God. He's doing the same things with people no matter their doctrinal view of the Godhead. Makes me wonder if we're straining gnats and swallowing camels on that whole issue at times.
If speaking in tongues is not at least an evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit, as Bro. B seems to believe, then what is it's purpose if the Mormons and the Catholics are speaking in tongues?
Also, I wonder what his response would be to the fact of me getting a word of knowledge from a Mormon (my former boss who helped convince me to go to seminary and pursue full-time ministry again because he sensed a call of God on my life and valued that for me more than me being his protoge' and inheriting his business) or the fact that I have had Trinitarians in the church mentioned at the outset of this thread speak direct words of knowledge (that were spot on!) and spiritual edification into my life on more than one occassion in the last few months? Are their spiritual gifts fake too? Really? Seriously?
To assume that the OP doctrine is the key to salvation is near the height of arrogance and self-righteoussness, imo.
(FYI: My Mormon friends believe in speaking in tongues too.)
TRFrance
08-05-2008, 08:13 PM
If speaking in tongues is not at least an evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit, as Bro. B seems to believe, then what is it's purpose if the Mormons and the Catholics are speaking in tongues?
Also, I wonder what his response would be to the fact of me getting a word of knowledge from a Mormon (my former boss who helped convince me to go to seminary and pursue full-time ministry again because he sensed a call of God on my life and valued that for me more than me being his protoge' and inheriting his business) or the fact that I have had Trinitarians in the church mentioned at the outset of this thread speak direct words of knowledge (that were spot on!) and spiritual edification into my life on more than one occassion in the last few months? Are their spiritual gifts fake too? Really? Seriously?
To assume that the OP doctrine is the key to salvation is near the height of arrogance and self-righteoussness, imo.
(FYI: My Mormon friends believe in speaking in tongues too.)
Personally, I draw the line at Mormons and any profession of them having the Holy Ghost. The clear demonic/occultic influences that run throughout Mormonism make me skeptical of anything "spiritual" I see manifested by any Mormon.
I don't know how much you now about their doctrines, (and I'm not looking to get into a doctrinal debate here) but I've examined their doctrines closely enough to seriously doubt that a Mormon would speak in tongues or give a true "word of knowledge" by the same Holy Spirit I have.
I tend to give a lot more slack to Trinitarian Pentecosts in this regard,but I cant do the same with Mormons. (And the gap between OP doctrine and Mormon doctrine & practice is waaaaaay bigger than the difference between OP and Trinitarian doctrine.)
I generally try to tread lightly when it comes to declaring who does and doesn't have the Holy Ghost, and am cautious about speaking against someone else's professed experience.... But I'm not going to assume that because someone professes to be "speaking in tongues" or "operating in the gifts" etc, that they're of God. That just opens the doorway to possible deception.
As Peter put it, God is No Respector of persons.
I attended a trinitarian Pentecostal church yesterday where there was a tongues and interpretion at the end of the worship portion of the service. The church is a medium sized church of about 600 people and has been around for about 90 years. They are self ascribed "Pentecasual" in that they don't demonstrate alot of public displays of what is normally considered Pentecostal style worship and prayer. While I've seen speaking in tongues, the practice of spiritual gifts and such in a small group or one-on-one setting I've not seen it in the public service. So it was a out of the ordinary for this tongues and interpretation to happen as it did. I say all that to set the context so that it is understood that there isn't pressure on people to 'perform' or act 'spiritual' as I've seen in some Pentecostal circles which seems to produce some wack jobs and many 'false' events. If it happens in this church it is generally the real deal.
The lady who spoke out was an elderly lady with a lovely German accent. She rolled her R's and everything. It was pretty cool. She spoke the tongues and then the pastor had everyone sit down and explained to visitors what was going on. He talked about the importance of this gift and asked for people to speak up of they felt they had the interpretation. Nobody volunteered. He sensed that the elderly lady had the interpretation and asked her if she had the message and she did and spoke it out clearly and strongly. It was very powerful, and everything she said was biblically based as far as content and it had an edifying and exhortive effect on the congregation. Ironically the title of the sermon was "Pentecost - The most important event of the church!". It was obviously a God moment for the church and not contrived.
As one whose roots are in OPism I tuned into something that most of them probably didn't realize. As she spoke it was clear that it was the Holy Spirit speaking and she referred a couple of times to "Jesus" and "The Father" in the third person and it was clear they were menat to understood as an something other than than her or the one speaking through her. Had this happened in an OP church it would have been disconcerting for many OP's present as it obviously had a trinitarian perspective.
Ok, so here are my questions. First of all what is your reaction to this spiritual event happening in a trinitarian church? Second, what do you think about the trinitarian flavor of the message? A follow-up to that would be how much do you think our personal theology effects our 'interpretations' of tongues both in the verbal offering of the interpreation as well as the mental processing of those who hear it?
A_PoMo
08-05-2008, 09:11 PM
Personally, I draw the line at Mormons and any profession of them having the Holy Ghost. The clear demonic/occultic influences that run throughout Mormonism make me skeptical of anything "spiritual" I see manifested by any Mormon.
I don't know how much you now about their doctrines, (and I'm not looking to get into a doctrinal debate here) but I've examined their doctrines closely enough to seriously doubt that a Mormon would speak in tongues or give a true "word of knowledge" by the same Holy Spirit I have.
I tend to give a lot more slack to Trinitarian Pentecosts in this regard,but I cant do the same with Mormons. (And the gap between OP doctrine and Mormon doctrine & practice is waaaaaay bigger than the difference between OP and Trinitarian doctrine.)
I generally try to tread lightly when it comes to declaring who does and doesn't have the Holy Ghost, and am cautious about speaking against someone else's professed experience.... But I'm not going to assume that because someone professes to be "speaking in tongues" or "operating in the gifts" etc, that they're of God. That just opens the doorway to possible deception.
I understand your reticence about Mormons and such and had the same reservations at the time. I asked the Lord to confirm it if indeed it was his word and he did through other spirit filled believers whose credibility I don't doubt. People accused Jesus of being of the devil when he did miracles on the Sabbath (something that horrifed them due to their theology.) and he said a house divided against itself falls indicating that the devil isn't going to say something that furthers the kingdom or God's will on earth. The implication of this is that if God says it and God confirms it and in fact accomplishes what he said he would do and it runs afoul of our theology then we need to adjust our theology to this new understanding instead of requiring God to bend to our theology. Non-believing Israel can attest to the futility of that position as their history and the Bible clearly indicate.
Jesus shook their view of those who are in vs out too with the parable of the Samaritan, a person that Jews would figure to be unclean and unsaved, a bastard half-breed of heretic much like we tend to view Mormons.
If the Mormon man, (one of the kindest, meekest, most generous and friendly people you'll ever meet btw) was operating under a false or contrary spirit then how was it confirmed by other believers and squared exactly with what God had been speaking to me for several months already?
Like I said, I understand your reticence. But faced with the reality of the situation I felt somewhat like Peter having a rooftop dream as it seemed that God was shaking my religious/theological paradigm. I'm not sure what it means, but I know it happened and I know that what was said is true as it has been confirmed numerous times over the last few months. I cannot deny that truth. Reality has a way of knocking our pat answers and perspectives for a loop.
I'm not saying that I believe Mormon doctrines and such. You're right, alot of what they believe is little weird for me (as I'm sure some our conclusions will be proven in error in the end of days as well). But are they able to used of God and speak in tongues and all that? I've seen the former myself and this same person tells me he's spoken in tongues too at the Mormon church. Idk what to do with that except to say idk and try to be respectful and a little less exclusive.
This off the topic, but in my dealings with Mormons in that business I learned that many of the things I was told they believe and practice are not accurate representations of what they actually believe and practice. I found that in my experience they have been caricatured much like OP's and Pentecostals in general are caricatured and misrepresented by our opposition in the religious world. Sure, some of it is true but too often what is purported to be true about the oppositions isn't always true rather they are often times straw men created to bolster the position of the opposition and garner support for its view from its followers through fear and shame.
Perhaps at this point I should conduct a poll to determine how many people here think I am a heretic? haha.
A PO Mo,
What Mormons believe is a lot more than a "little bit weird". They have added to the word of God with their own scriptures that they ascribe as being equal to the Bible and divinely inspired.
Not to mention that just about everything else in their religoin is not biblical at all.
You really need to do some research on Mormonism. My daughter dated one years ago and was being seduced by them. I did a lot of praying and asked for wisdom in handling it. I told her she needed to research it on the internet and books. She asked me for help thank heavens and I bought her a couple of books and also gave her some websites to check out. That jump started her and before it was over she was horrified at what all they believe and realized how evil it is.
Evang.Benincasa
08-05-2008, 09:17 PM
LOL!!! EB has sounded like one of Hillary's surrogates back when she was on the campaign trail. No matter what they were asked they spouted the campaigns line of the day even if it had nothing to do with the question.
CC1, I answered you, but you couldn't handle that. The only thing Hillary around here is that girls bike you want to buy. :ursofunny
A_PoMo
08-05-2008, 09:20 PM
A PO Mo,
What Mormons believe is a lot more than a "little bit weird". They have added to the word of God with their own scriptures that they ascribe as being equal to the Bible and divinely inspired.
Not to mention that just about everything else in their religoin is not biblical at all.
You really need to do some research on Mormonism. My daughter dated one years ago and was being seduced by them. I did a lot of praying and asked for wisdom in handling it. I told her she needed to research it on the internet and books. She asked me for help thank heavens and I bought her a couple of books and also gave her some websites to check out. That jump started her and before it was over she was horrified at what all they believe and realized how evil it is.
I hear you and second the motion on that. I was trying to be tactful and kind. But that doesn't negate the fact that some of what is written about them is misrepresentation and it doesn't alter what actually happened in my situation. The Mormon man was used by God to speak truth to me and it was confirmed in my own conversations with God and with other believers and since then has been confirmed in other ways. The man prayed, he heard from God, obeyed God and spoke truth. If that's not being led by the Spirit then I don't know what is. I'm not sure doctrinal purity is a harbinger of salvation. There are many things that OP's believe that are unbiblical and an adding to and taking away from written revelation. Yet I'm not going to say that all OP's are unsaved. Some are, some aren't and it has nothing to do with their theology, imo.
Evang.Benincasa
08-05-2008, 09:28 PM
You still have not answered the question. I find it amusing you refer to my intelligence and oxygen level when you have yet to answere a very simple question.
That's because your head is too BIG for that little pudding bowl you call a helmet. You see when your temples start to sting it means that you are losing oxygen to your brain. Therefore you can't make proper decisions when it comes to riding or understanding the simplest posts. Especially when it is made too simple for you.
I am not going to restate it because I have already asked it in as simple manner as possible.
Thus it was answered, so take the girl's bike you plan to buy and pray your flip flop doesn't get stuck under the 15' inch rear wheel.
To make this simple that even a big headed tiny helmeted man can understand.
1) If they went forward to become One God Jesus name, they had it.
2) If they didn't go forward, and stayed Trinitarian they NEVER had it.
If you can't understand that, then you need to quit riding all together because the fumes from the cars in front of you are causing more damage than the tiny beanie fake helmet you wear.
To make this simple that even a big headed tiny helmeted man can understand.
1) If they went forward to become One God Jesus name, they had it.
2) If they didn't go forward, and stayed Trinitarian they NEVER had it.
If you can't understand that, then you need to quit riding all together because the fumes from the cars in front of you are causing more damage than the tiny beanie fake helmet you wear.
Thank you for finally, after the umpteenth request, for answering the question!
Now here is my followup;
So are you saying that if two men attended a trinitarian Pentecostal revival in the early 1900's and both received the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues, both became successful preachers, etc and then later one heard the Oneness Jesus name message and accepted it and the other one didn't it meant that all along the one that does not become oneness never really had the Holy Ghost but the other one did? Good grief!
Evang.Benincasa
08-05-2008, 09:35 PM
Thank you for your responses, but you completely dodged the issue.
Yeah sure. I didn't dodge anything. I made it plain.
The point is that you have no business saying the Holy Ghost is fake because you really don't know for sure.
The Holy Ghost is NOT fake, the Trinitarians are not saved, they need to get saved. Tongues and Interpretation in a Trinitarian church goes like this.
"Get baptized in Jesus name, Jesus is the One True Living God"
If they don't hear that, then those tongues are just yabba dabba do.
All this talk of doctrine is fine and dandy, and I am with you on that, but taking a chance on calling the Holy Ghost fake is a huge no-no.
I never called the Holy Ghost fake, I called the three person in a unified effort believers are false when they speak in tongues.
Evang.Benincasa
08-05-2008, 09:45 PM
Thank you for finally, after the umpteenth request, for answering the question!
I answered you numerous times before.
Now here is my followup;
So are you saying that if two men attended a trinitarian Pentecostal revival in the early 1900's and both received the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues
Wrong! He never received anything if he never came to the Truth of the Mighty God in Christ. It's that simple.
, both became successful preachers,
What does that mean? Explain that in a few words CC1. Please!
etc and then later one heard the Oneness Jesus name message and accepted it
Where's all the Bible for this hypothetical hoopla? CC1 how about if the guy above always believed in One God and water baptism in Jesus name?
How about if his mother and father were One God believers and taught him the Truth when he was young. How about if your make believe person had Jesus appear to him in a dream and tell him about ACTS 2:38?
The story can go on forever, but the TRUTH remains. These people NEED to get SAVED, because they are lost if they never come to the One God Truth.
and the other one didn't it meant that all along the one that does not become oneness never really had the Holy Ghost but the other one did? Good grief!
I think I figured out the above comment, no if they stay in the teaching that Jesus is the second person of the Trinity they are as lost as a Jehovah Witness. That simple :)
That's because your head is too BIG for that little pudding bowl you call a helmet. You see when your temples start to sting it means that you are losing oxygen to your brain. Therefore you can't make proper decisions when it comes to riding or understanding the simplest posts. Especially when it is made too simple for you.
Thus it was answered, so take the girl's bike you plan to buy and pray your flip flop doesn't get stuck under the 15' inch rear wheel.
To make this simple that even a big headed tiny helmeted man can understand.
1) If they went forward to become One God Jesus name, they had it.
2) If they didn't go forward, and stayed Trinitarian they NEVER had it.
If you can't understand that, then you need to quit riding all together because the fumes from the cars in front of you are causing more damage than the tiny beanie fake helmet you wear.
I can not give justice to how utterly ridiculous I think this post is. Exactly how long are we supposed to give them to "get it" before it's ok to declare their Holy Ghost a fake?:crazy
Yeah sure. I didn't dodge anything. I made it plain.
The only thing you made plain is that you think it's ok to say people have a fake Holy Ghost when you have no way of knowing for sure.
The Holy Ghost is NOT fake, the Trinitarians are not saved, they need to get saved. Tongues and Interpretation in a Trinitarian church goes like this.
"Get baptized in Jesus name, Jesus is the One True Living God"
If they don't hear that, then those tongues are just yabba dabba do.
HOGWASH! I've been in an AOG church and God did not limit what He said to them to "Get baptized in Jesus name, Jesus is the One True Living God"
I never called the Holy Ghost fake, I called the three person in a unified effort believers are false when they speak in tongues.
Actually, that is exactly what you've been saying. :crazy
Evang.Benincasa
08-05-2008, 09:54 PM
Yes, I fully understand that not all men have the Holy Ghost...
Do you really? I don't think you do. I think you believe that anyone who confesses Jesus, in a verbal sinners prayer and chatters like a chimp, while shedding some tears is ready to rocket off to glory.
But by your words are implying that those in Trinitarian churches who received the Holy Ghost baptism, speaking with other tongues, didnt really receive the same infililng of the Holy Ghost we got, and their speaking in tongues wasn't really from God. [/quote]
Very good, you win a cookie. You see how easy that was. You see fellas, TRFrance saw what I was saying. TRFrance, wash the blood off your head and hands, warn the Trinitarians to forsake the wrong way.
Anyway, I've said enough on this. One day, whether in this life or the next, you'll see how very wrong you were on this issue.
Another silent witness to stand in front of all those lost Trinitarians and tell them nothing is wrong. Brother, warn them and teach them that they need to get saved. They are going to a devil's hell. You need to wash the blood off your hands.
Meanwhile, if you want to grieve the Holy Ghost with your words, you go right ahead and do it by yourself, sir. I'm done.
Are you for real?
Evang.Benincasa
08-05-2008, 10:00 PM
The only thing you made plain is that you think it's ok to say people have a fake Holy Ghost when you have no way of knowing for sure.
Listen, Brother if they never come out of their mess they DON'T have the Holy Ghost. If they reject the Truth of the Mighty God in Christ they DON'T have the Holy Ghost. If they reject Jesus name baptism and stay with their NO NAME baptism THEY never had the Holy Ghost. It's that simple.
HOGWASH! I've been in an AOG church and God did not limit what He said to them to "Get baptized in Jesus name, Jesus is the One True Living God".
Did they get baptized? Did they come into the Truth?
Actually, that is exactly what you've been saying. :crazy
No, it's you who are saying that people who believe Jesus is a second member of the Trinity are filled with His Spirit of Truth and that Spirit doesn't do what the Bible says it's supposed to do.
TRFrance
08-05-2008, 10:06 PM
Are you for real?
Funny, I kept asking the same thing over and over when reading some of your posts!
So are you saying that if two men attended a trinitarian Pentecostal revival in the early 1900's and both received the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues, both became successful preachers, etc and then later one heard the Oneness Jesus name message and accepted it and the other one didn't it meant that all along the one that does not become oneness never really had the Holy Ghost but the other one did? Good grief!
Circular reasoning at its best.
A_PoMo
08-05-2008, 10:50 PM
Listen, Brother if they never come out of their mess they DON'T have the Holy Ghost. If they reject the Truth of the Mighty God in Christ they DON'T have the Holy Ghost. If they reject Jesus name baptism and stay with their NO NAME baptism THEY never had the Holy Ghost. It's that simple.
The problem this position is that if flies in the face of reality. It's like saying the earth is flat because I say it's flat. Either speakinging in tongues along with evidence of the fruit of the spirit and the gifts of the spirit are the evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit or they are not. If not, then what is evidence of regeneration? Whether people want to acknowledge it or not none of these are connected to a system of theology and seem instead to transcend these systems. The common denominator, as far as I can tell, is faith.
To deny the efficacy of what God has done in brethren outside our brand of Christian faith when the evidence of God's acceptance of these people into the kingdom is obvious and biblical seems to me to at the very least skirt on the edges of blasphemy as we are then forced, as some here have done, to attribute these movings of God to Satanic forces. Sorry, but I can't do that. I may not understand it fully, but when God is moving I, like Peter dreaming on a rooftop, am forced to accept it even if it upsets my theological applecart.
TRFrance
08-05-2008, 11:10 PM
The problem this position is that if flies in the face of reality. It's like saying the earth is flat because I say it's flat.
Indeed, indeed.
Benincasa's words remind me of another example of circular reasoning I came across recently:
A confused student says to his parents : "The teachers were crazy to give me all those C's. After all, I'm an A student!".
Romans 14:22
08-06-2008, 12:02 AM
No doubt Bro, but at least they have a better start than the clueless.
Try doing your job, and stop enabling the Trinitarians in their false sight of Jesus as a number two man.
Did God ever answer your prayers before you were saved?
One of two things. Yes he did in your unrepentent and unfilled state.
Did Saul Propesy being filled with the spirit?
I you say God never answered your prayer before being save then you are not telling the truth and are to proud to admit you might be wrong the ASsemble of God. Yes, ihave seem some wild mumbo jumbo at AOG services. not all real. But it doesn' t negate there experience.
Honestly you sound like a novice regarding church history. Eeryone on this board knows God moved on Trinitarians intially in the early 20 century revival.
Your argument holds no straw and no logic.
You keep saying tell the AOG the truth. Many of us have or years. So lack of the judgementalness.
I received the Holy Ghost as a trinitaritan and so have countless others. I have been led to the truth. Maybe some take years to yield there heart. Maybe they never will. But the scripture is true "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentence".
I received the HG and later received full truth. God tried numerous times to open the gospel completely to me but it took six months after the HG to hear the word of God more perfectly.
Funny, I kept asking the same thing over and over when reading some of your posts!
Circular reasoning at its best.
Yup. I think the reason it took EB so long to answer my simple questoin was that he realizes this logic is...er....shall we say "fuzzy".
This is the same logic we ridicule in "once saved always saved" Baptists when they say that if a man "backslides" at some point he was never really saved.
ReformedDave
08-06-2008, 07:15 AM
Yup. I think the reason it took EB so long to answer my simple questoin was that he realizes this logic is...er....shall we say "fuzzy".
This is the same logic we ridicule in "once saved always saved" Baptists when they say that if a man "backslides" at some point he was never really saved.
It's more important for him to be 'right' ........
Evang.Benincasa
08-06-2008, 07:35 AM
Did God ever answer your prayers before you were saved?
So now when a coke dealer is praying that the judge doesn't give him a hard sentence it is an indication that he has the Holy Ghost?
This discussion spirials further down the tubes as we go along.
One of two things. Yes he did in your unrepentent and unfilled state.
Having prayers answered only shows God's goodness, not anyone elses. For God so loved the World. God loved us first, not the other way around.
Jim Jones having his prayers answered and moving him from Indiana to California and then to Guyana, didn't mean the man was Holy Ghost filled.
Sinner prayers will not save anyone, but when we repent and are baptized in the wonderful name of Jesus and get filled with the Holy Ghost with tongues.
Then are we heading towards the right place. The crack dealer praying that he sells all his product before he needs to pay the guy who fronted him product, doesn't mean the man has salvation.
Trinitarians are not saved, but they need to get saved. The attitude that I see here, is one of, if your Pentecostal and garble out some sort of tongues your with the group?
Looks like nothing progressed from the 1900s till now. We still have the weirdness of the Azusa Street revival. It's a wonder that you all are not writing in "tongues".
Did Saul Propesy being filled with the spirit?
Saul also had the Spirit of the Lord depart from him, had an evil spirit enter him and he prophsied.
I you say God never answered your prayer before being save then you are not telling the truth and are to proud to admit you might be wrong the ASsemble of God.
Answered prayers does not mean a person is saved. Or the person is filled with the Holy Ghost.
Yes, ihave seem some wild mumbo jumbo at AOG services. not all real. But it doesn' t negate there experience.
So you have seen some flipped out stuff but you refuse that evidence and negate what the Bible says about it. Then where do you go from there? You go with your feelings. So FEELINGS is how you dictate your truth.
American Churchanity is shot in the head and this country is living proof of it's influence. Just pass the plate and everyones saved.
Honestly you sound like a novice regarding church history.
Eeryone on this board knows God moved on Trinitarians intially in the early 20 century revival.
God moved on Trinitarians in the 20th century? No you are a religious Pentecostal who is under the impression that America is where Pentecost started. Sorry to break the news to you but when it was poured out in 30 AD, it never stopped. Jesus name wasn't a new issue, and people were always speaking in tongues.
Your argument holds no straw and no logic.
Straw? You mean what your religion is made out of?
The Jews who were filled the day of Pentecost were ONE GOD people and those ONE GOD people got a Bible study. The Bible study was about Jesus being BOTH Lord and Christ. So, mr logical, tell me why Peter goes to all the effort to preach the mighty God in Christ if it was not the main point of his doctrine. You need to go find an Apostolic Pentecostal church to attend.
You keep saying tell the AOG the truth. Many of us have or years. So lack of the judgementalness.
Why wouldn't I think that you have not told them anything? Because you already think that they are saved. Why make a great effort if they are already filled with the Spirit of the Lord and flying to glory.
Whaat happens if a Trinitarian who you think has the Holy Ghost dies without baptism in Jesus name?
I received the Holy Ghost as a trinitaritan and so have countless others. I have been led to the truth.
Did you stay a Trinitarian? No, you left the error as did countless others and some of those others have admitted that what they had when they were Trinitarians was nothing to what they have in the Apostolic Faith.
Maybe some take years to yield there heart.
God draws all men near, and that doesn't mean they have the Holy Ghost.
If they make it all the way to the water way in Jesus name and speak with other tongues then they are doing better than the Trinitarian crew who refused God.
Maybe they never will.
Then they NEVER had the Holy Ghost, and they will regrettably burn in hell.
But the scripture is true "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentence".
Leadeth is the key, as for having answered prayers when you don't deserve those prayers. That is the mercy of God, and that mercy runs out when you keep refusing His out stretched hand.
I received the HG and later received full truth.
Maybe you received the Holy Ghost when you later received the Truth. ;)
God tried numerous times to open the gospel completely to me but it took six months after the HG to hear the word of God more perfectly.
Only six months after. Wow that's a lifetime.
Whatever. :ursofunny
Evang.Benincasa
08-06-2008, 07:54 AM
But by your words are implying that those in Trinitarian churches who received the Holy Ghost baptism, speaking with other tongues, didnt really receive the same infililng of the Holy Ghost we got, and their speaking in tongues wasn't really from God.
France, you did understand what I was saying. So why the sour grapes?
Funny, I kept asking the same thing over and over when reading some of your posts!
Circular reasoning at its best.
Anyway, I've said enough on this.
NO, you can't say enough on this. You can't leave it alone because you hate the thought that you advocate people who are wrong being right with God.
You claim that you are One God but by what you post you are not. You make excuses for these people having another Jesus and claim they are being filled with His Spirit? Stop enabling the lie and preach the Truth.
One day, whether in this life or the next, you'll see how very wrong you were on this issue.
You mean to tell me that GOD in His WORD is unable to warn anyone of impending doom? So your Gospel is a ........ shoot, and how the dice lands is what you get for your roll? Pathetic and disgraceful. How about warning these people and praying them through to the Holy Ghost?
Oh, if you already think they have the Holy Ghost there's no need to pray them through.
Meanwhile, if you want to grieve the Holy Ghost with your words, you go right ahead and do it by yourself, sir. I'm done.
The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Truth, I highly doubt that He has a problem with someone telling the Truth.
Funny, I kept asking the same thing over and over when reading some of your posts!
Universal Gospel of Inclusion, it sounds like what you believe, but with a Pentecostal twist.
Circular reasoning at its best.
You saw what I was saying a few pages back, but since the drill around Forum land is the dog pile method, then people must wade through the sore loser behavior of that dog pile.:ursofunny
Evang.Benincasa
08-06-2008, 07:57 AM
Yup. I think the reason it took EB so long to answer my simple questoin was that he realizes this logic is...er....shall we say "fuzzy".
This is the same logic we ridicule in "once saved always saved" Baptists when they say that if a man "backslides" at some point he was never really saved.
No I made the mistake of trying to explain to you something you should of already had known. You don't react well when your corrected so we had to do the dance.
Once Saved Always Saved? Apples and Oranges. Trinitarians are lost. Plain and simple.:snapout
Evang.Benincasa
08-06-2008, 07:58 AM
It's more important for him to be 'right' ........
Very good, REFORMED Dave. :ursofunny
A_PoMo
08-06-2008, 08:18 AM
No I made the mistake of trying to explain to you something you should of already had known. You don't react well when your corrected so we had to do the dance.
Once Saved Always Saved? Apples and Oranges. Trinitarians are lost. Plain and simple.:snapout
Once again I am reminded why I left the UPC and "Apostolic" ranks.
mizpeh
08-06-2008, 08:26 AM
Once again I am reminded why I left the UPC and "Apostolic" ranks.
You shouldn't let a few bad apples spoil your view of ALL of the UPC. :snapout
My pastor was filled with the Holy Ghost as a Trinitarian. He walked with God as a Trinitarian, cast out devils by the finger of God as a Trinitarian, etc, but came to understand the Oneness of God by revelation during a time of prayer and fasting. He holds a UPC license now. He doesn't believe he was lost during his Trinitarian days. :)
A_PoMo
08-06-2008, 08:35 AM
You shouldn't let a few bad apples spoil your view of ALL of the UPC. :snapout
My pastor was filled with the Holy Ghost as a Trinitarian. He walked with God as a Trinitarian, cast out devils by the finger of God as a Trinitarian, etc, but came to understand the Oneness of God by revelation during a time of prayer and fasting. He holds a UPC license now. He doesn't believe he was lost during his Trinitarian days. :)
No, I don't paint everybody with the same brush. But you run into this sort of mind numbing lunacy too often to feel safe. I got tired of defending my group, especially when the group seemed to want to perpetuate the myopic delusion.
It bothered me too that even ministers that I knew didn't think Trinitarians are going to hell would say they were from the pulpit or would obfuscate and spout political correctness in public because of the prevailing anti-Trinitarian attitude of the group as a whole. That's just retarded and speaks to more ills than just in this area.
TK Burk
08-06-2008, 08:41 AM
Once again I am reminded why I left the UPC and "Apostolic" ranks.
FYI: Bro. Benincasa is not now, nor ever has been, UPCI.
TK Burk
08-06-2008, 08:42 AM
You shouldn't let a few bad apples spoil your view of ALL of the UPC. :snapout
My pastor was filled with the Holy Ghost as a Trinitarian. He walked with God as a Trinitarian, cast out devils by the finger of God as a Trinitarian, etc, but came to understand the Oneness of God by revelation during a time of prayer and fasting. He holds a UPC license now. He doesn't believe he was lost during his Trinitarian days. :)
Then why become UPC?
mizpeh
08-06-2008, 08:56 AM
Then why become UPC?
The will of God.
A_PoMo
08-06-2008, 08:59 AM
FYI: Bro. Benincasa is not now, nor ever has been, UPCI.
I wasn't sure if he was or not so I added the "Apostolic" tag too (and I used the term 'apostolic' advisedly in this context btw). Even so, the argument and attitude is the same as I've seen way, way too often in my UPC/"Apostolic" days.
To be fair, there are some on the Trinitarian side that act the same way towards OP's. In the last ten years I've met one such person, an AOG old-timer who was still fighting the cold war. But it seems inevitably that when I'm around OP's the attitude is more the norm even among ones that are less irascible than Bro. B.
It's funny, when I talk to my Trinitarian friends and I tell them that some OP's don't think Trinitarians are saved the reaction is always one of complete shock and dumbfounded amazement. I may as well have told them that OP's seriously believed the moon is made of blue cheese. They usually look at each other in amazement and then look at me and say "Are you serious?!". Of course I always qualify it by saying that not ALL Op's believe this, but enough do to taint the whole group, imo.
Thankfully, I, like many other OP's received the "revelation" of this falsity of this position and live in full truth now. We can only hope that the Spirit of Truth in our more bullheaded OP friends will 'reveal' this glorious truth to them as well. TIC. :)
I think our good Brother B is experiencing some sort of mental block or something. He keeps arguing doctrine when no one is arguing in favor of trinitarian doctrine.
berkeley
08-06-2008, 02:25 PM
I am still curious, is Preterism on the list of all truth?? I don't think he answered this one.
...
Honestly you sound like a novice regarding church history. Eeryone on this board knows God moved on Trinitarians intially in the early 20 century revival.
...
.
When God began to pour out His Spirit in the late 1800's and early 1900's, it was not upon sinners or unsaved people. Those folks knew the Lord. Many of them called themselves "Apostolic." Look at the sign on the side of the old building on Azusa Street.
Originally, Apostolic folks were saved and then filled with the Spirit. Years later some of them began to baptize in Jesus' Name. BUT the original Apostolics believed what is called "one-step" here and on other forums. It was not till years later that the idea came along that a person was not really saved until he/she was baptized in Jesus' name and received the Holy Ghost Baptism. Those who teach the "three-step" theory of salvation are "johnny come lately" Apostolics and have strayed from "the old paths."
When God began to pour out His Spirit in the late 1800's and early 1900's, it was not upon sinners or unsaved people. Those folks knew the Lord. Many of them called themselves "Apostolic." Look at the sign on the side of the old building on Azusa Street.
Originally, Apostolic folks were saved and then filled with the Spirit. Years later some of them began to baptize in Jesus' Name. BUT the original Apostolics believed what is called "one-step" here and on other forums. It was not till years later that the idea came along that a person was not really saved until he/she was baptized in Jesus' name and received the Holy Ghost Baptism. Those who teach the "three-step" theory of salvation are "johnny come lately" Apostolics and have strayed from "the old paths."
Here is a picture of the old building on Azusa Street.
The word Apostolic on the side is a little faded.
Could you cite your scriptural evidence about points one and two?
From my understanding of scripture, the infilling of the Holy Ghost is not predicated on the understanding of the oneness of God.
Acts 2 says when the apostles were speaking in tongues on the Day of Pentecost, they weren't speaking about One God in tongues. The apostles were telling the wonderful works of God.
It is a very anal point of view to suggest a trinitarian has to understand the oneness doctrine to get the Holy Ghost when the Bible says whosoever thirsts let him come and drink FREELY. God does not make people take a math test to get the Holy Ghost. God doesn't practice Jim Crow laws for the Holy Ghost.
That's because your head is too BIG for that little pudding bowl you call a helmet. You see when your temples start to sting it means that you are losing oxygen to your brain. Therefore you can't make proper decisions when it comes to riding or understanding the simplest posts. Especially when it is made too simple for you.
Thus it was answered, so take the girl's bike you plan to buy and pray your flip flop doesn't get stuck under the 15' inch rear wheel.
To make this simple that even a big headed tiny helmeted man can understand.
1) If they went forward to become One God Jesus name, they had it.
2) If they didn't go forward, and stayed Trinitarian they NEVER had it.
If you can't understand that, then you need to quit riding all together because the fumes from the cars in front of you are causing more damage than the tiny beanie fake helmet you wear.
I am still curious, is Preterism on the list of all truth?? I don't think he answered this one.
Do you think a person who does not believe in preterism is saved?
There is more substance in Paris Hilton's diary than in EB's posts. I'm waiting for the response of scriptural evidence one has to have a oneness revelation before getting the Holy Ghost.
My guess it is in the part of the Bible that condemns television but condones the internet.
Steve Epley calls EB an erring brother that believes a doctrine which will send EB to hell. However, there is no chance in hell that Epley will call a trinitarian brother that believes an false doctrine, even if they have been baptized in Jesus name and filled with the Holy Ghost.
Do you think a person who does not believe in preterism is saved?
Jermyn Davidson
08-06-2008, 09:32 PM
Saul also had the Spirit of the Lord depart from him, had an evil spirit enter him and he prophsied.
:ursofunny
that evil spirit that entered into Saul was "from the Lord" according to my Bible.
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