PEAK first WPF Youth Conference

[Consapostolic1]

The PEAK youth conference sponsored by the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship kicked off last night. Friends told me there was probably around 1,000 young people there last night(8/13/08) with more to be expected including myself. I'll update when I return.
Evening Speaker: Evg. Cody Marks
Daytime Sperker: Rev. Jason Calhoun

[Tim Rutledge]

The PEAK youth conference sponsored by the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship kicked off last night. Friends told me there was probably around 1,000 young people there last night(8/13/08) with more to be expected including myself. I'll update when I return.
Evening Speaker: Evg. Cody Marks
Daytime Sperker: Rev. Jason Calhoun

My Pastor is there, and is a large part of organizing this event.

[Melody]

Awesome event!

WTG WPF for promoting this event.

[ChurchMouse]

The PEAK youth conference sponsored by the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship kicked off last night. Friends told me there was probably around 1,000 young people there last night(8/13/08) with more to be expected including myself. I'll update when I return.
Evening Speaker: Evg. Cody Marks
Daytime Sperker: Rev. Jason Calhoun

Waiting on the update, about 80 of our youthh went and can't wait till next year, said it was awesome !!!:TulsaROCKS::bliss

[Consapostolic1]

Wow...Talk about incredible. This was by far the best conference I've ever attended. Everything was on point at this conference from the music, message, fellowship and much more. I definitely have a lot of respect for the vision of the elders that put this conference together. From what it looked like to me on Friday night there was probably about 2000 people in attendence.

[ChurchMouse]

Wow...Talk about incredible. This was by far the best conference I've ever attended. Everything was on point at this conference from the music, message, fellowship and much more. I definitely have a lot of respect for the vision of the elders that put this conference together. From what it looked like to me on Friday night there was probably about 2000 people in attendence.

That is great !!!! And people say our young people want the blacklights and smoke filled youth services, no, I beg to differ, they are hungry for the truth.... Thank God for the WPF

[Consapostolic1]

Next year I'm pretty sure they'll have to move the conference to a larger facility.

[Consapostolic1]

Cody Marks made the statement that we're tired of hearing about the old time pentecostal stories of miracles, signs and wonders, but that we want our own stories to tell. The place erupted with such worship and praise.

[ChurchMouse]

Next year I'm pretty sure they'll have to move the conference to a larger facility.

I believe it will continue to grow, and your probably right, they'll have to get a bigger building, that'll be great too.

[Consapostolic1]

I can't even do this meeting justice with my explaination. I apologize for not being able to describe into detail the way the conference went.

[SecretWarrior]

The Western District also had one of the greatest camps they have ever had, the Spirit of God moved Greatly and there was a Freedom there that had not been enjoyed in the past..

[tv1a]

I think the miracle is having more people show up to a wpf youth evnt than showed up at the tulsa tango. Since no video is allowed, validating exaggerated numbers are out of the question.

Cody Marks made the statement that we're tired of hearing about the old time pentecostal stories of miracles, signs and wonders, but that we want our own stories to tell. The place erupted with such worship and praise.

[tv1a]

Not as much dissention. lol Good to hear the western district

An estimated 70,000 kids gathered in Washington DC to pray for God to stop abortion. Better than light a candle than curse the darkness. A candle was lit in Washington DC for the next generation.

The Western District also had one of the greatest camps they have ever had, the Spirit of God moved Greatly and there was a Freedom there that had not been enjoyed in the past..

[theoldpaths]

A group of young people from our church went and the report that came back was that it was a life-changing event - not the cliche "life-changing", but a literal "life-changing" event.

How is that for a good report and not an evil report?

[ItalianApo]

A group of young people from our church went and the report that came back was that it was a life-changing event - not the cliche "life-changing", but a literal "life-changing" event.

How is that for a good report and not an evil report?


It was indeed THE life changing event for me!!! I was backslidden in my heart & was trying to get back to the place where i used to be. Every service i would reach out to God, but still i wouldn't let go of the things i had done. I didn't want to go to PEAK because i thought it would be just like all the other conferences we went to...stirred & hyped up but not changed. No different than when you got there. Boy was i WRONG! I have never felt the power of God so strong & believe me i have had my awesome experiences in the high places of God! No gimmicks there, just the indescribable love of our Savior! I am 19 years old & i wouldn't trade that for the world! Talk about me & say i'm narrow minded, but "narrow is the way" to get to heaven!

ALL of our young people were changed. We went back home & had testimony service the next day (Sunday night). It was phenomenal...EVERY young person had the anointing & authority of God as they gave their testimony. As a result, 6 people were baptized!!! No preaching, fog, or strobe lights-just young people with the fire of God & a burning desire to reach the lost! We're ready for revival...LET'S GO!!!!

[Sunni]

It was indeed THE life changing event for me!!! I was backslidden in my heart & was trying to get back to the place where i used to be. Every service i would reach out to God, but still i wouldn't let go of the things i had done. I didn't want to go to PEAK because i thought it would be just like all the other conferences we went to...stirred & hyped up but not changed. No different than when you got there. Boy was i WRONG! I have never felt the power of God so strong & believe me i have had my awesome experiences in the high places of God! No gimmicks there, just the indescribable love of our Savior! I am 19 years old & i wouldn't trade that for the world! Talk about me & say i'm narrow minded, but "narrow is the way" to get to heaven!

ALL of our young people were changed. We went back home & had testimony service the next day (Sunday night). It was phenomenal...EVERY young person had the anointing & authority of God as they gave their testimony. As a result, 6 people were baptized!!! No preaching, fog, or strobe lights-just young people with the fire of God & a burning desire to reach the lost! We're ready for revival...LET'S GO!!!!

I don't post much here, but wanted to say how wonderful it was to see this great report. We took our youth, and all of us are still soarin'! I have been in Pentecost my entire life...I have never been in services soooo powerful- EVER!! We took our youth, and their lives were changed. They have not stopped talking to us about it! We love it!

Something happened with our youth at PEAK that was not emotionalism, or a momentary high- but truly an anointing and power was placed in their lives- as well as mine. I cannot say enough how great this conference was!!

Naysayers can talk...we are just gonna' keep keepin' on until Jesus comes. Some don't understand the WPF or agree- that is fine. But one thing is true- we had some church in Tulsa! I hope that UPC, WPF, ALJC or anyone else will not try to diminish to these young people the move of God that they experienced. This is not about organizations or politics, this was a lot of young people who gathered together in worship and praise- and God answered! Please, just let them rejoice in this!

We love the truth and we love all our brothers and sisters that are teaching and preaching truth- no matter what card they hold!

Oh, and we can't wait until PEAK next year!!!

[Jack Shephard]

I am certainly not a part of the WPF, certainly not, but it is great to hear that they have changed hearts and lives. We can all argue over this and that lights and fog versus no lights and fog, who cares. I ask are people changed in a service with lights a fog, yes! Are people changed in a service with no fog and lights, yes! Then good. Who give a flying fig that Peak did or didn't have lights. People got changed and that is the key. It trips me out that you all in this thread would bring up the light situation. Honestly no one cares if you all have flashin lights or whatever at Peak, I do care that kids were changed. That is the bright spot!

[Minister_WD]

I am certainly not a part of the WPF, certainly not, but it is great to hear that they have changed hearts and lives. We can all argue over this and that lights and fog versus no lights and fog, who cares. I ask are people changed in a service with lights a fog, yes! Are people changed in a service with no fog and lights, yes! Then good. Who give a flying fig that Peak did or didn't have lights. People got changed and that is the key. It trips me out that you all in this thread would bring up the light situation. Honestly no one cares if you all have flashin lights or whatever at Peak, I do care that kids were changed. That is the bright spot!

Great Post! I too am perplexed why all the WPF folks are bringing up the lighting situation. Not only I am seeing this mentioned on this forum, but on various WPF member blogs as well. The only way it can be taken is as a slight against the UPC youth conferences.

While I am rejoicing with the WPF folks that many hearts and lives were touched and changed at PEAK, the same is true for the UPC events. At the Western District youth convention this past March, there were lights and many hearts and lives were touched and changed as well.

[Sunni]

I am certainly not a part of the WPF, certainly not, but it is great to hear that they have changed hearts and lives. We can all argue over this and that lights and fog versus no lights and fog, who cares. I ask are people changed in a service with lights a fog, yes! Are people changed in a service with no fog and lights, yes! Then good. Who give a flying fig that Peak did or didn't have lights. People got changed and that is the key. It trips me out that you all in this thread would bring up the light situation. Honestly no one cares if you all have flashin lights or whatever at Peak, I do care that kids were changed. That is the bright spot!

Thank you for being thrilled with the kids. We did not all, however, bring up the lights and fogs...one 19 year old poster did. You were a bit mistaken- just wanted to clear that up!

Furthermore, I am a WPF Minister's wife...I don't have a problem with light and fog. I believe in the right place and setting, it is great for youth ministry....

I am truly excited every service when our young people experience God...we were all just excited about PEAK this week....

GOD BLESS!

[theoldpaths]

It was indeed THE life changing event for me!!! I was backslidden in my heart & was trying to get back to the place where i used to be. Every service i would reach out to God, but still i wouldn't let go of the things i had done. I didn't want to go to PEAK because i thought it would be just like all the other conferences we went to...stirred & hyped up but not changed. No different than when you got there. Boy was i WRONG! I have never felt the power of God so strong & believe me i have had my awesome experiences in the high places of God! No gimmicks there, just the indescribable love of our Savior! I am 19 years old & i wouldn't trade that for the world! Talk about me & say i'm narrow minded, but "narrow is the way" to get to heaven!

ALL of our young people were changed. We went back home & had testimony service the next day (Sunday night). It was phenomenal...EVERY young person had the anointing & authority of God as they gave their testimony. As a result, 6 people were baptized!!! No preaching, fog, or strobe lights-just young people with the fire of God & a burning desire to reach the lost! We're ready for revival...LET'S GO!!!!

What an awesome testimony and thank you for not being quiet.

Sounds like someone was REVIVED and not by emotional motivational gimmicks that just get you pumped for a short period of time, but does not last; but rather something based on a relationship with the Almighty!

Glory to God!

[Tim Rutledge]

Great Post! I too am perplexed why all the WPF folks are bringing up the lighting situation. Not only I am seeing this mentioned on this forum, but on various WPF member blogs as well. The only way it can be taken is as a slight against the UPC youth conferences.

While I am rejoicing with the WPF folks that many hearts and lives were touched and changed at PEAK, the same is true for the UPC events. At the Western District youth convention this past March, there were lights and many hearts and lives were touched and changed as well.

We all have a right to voice our concerns. And we have a right to call things wrong when we percieve it as such. Fog machines and strobe lights DO NOT Belong in the Sanctuary. When the upci youth conferences started using them, was when a lot of churches started teaching and preaching against them. Get over it. The WPF is not going away and will continue naming the sins and the weights which can so easily beset us.

The posts that you are responding to are from young people who had a great experience at a conference. Lets just focus on that. No hard feelings, but everybody bashes the WPF on here, and I am done tolerating it.

[Cindy]

Praise the Lord for great reports of changed lives.

[Consapostolic1]

We all have a right to voice our concerns. And we have a right to call things wrong when we percieve it as such. Fog machines and strobe lights DO NOT Belong in the Sanctuary. When the upci youth conferences started using them, was when a lot of churches started teaching and preaching against them. Get over it. The WPF is not going away and will continue naming the sins and the weights which can so easily beset us.

The posts that you are responding to are from young people who had a great experience at a conference. Lets just focus on that. No hard feelings, but everybody bashes the WPF on here, and I am done tolerating it.

Great points you addressed here.

[Jack Shephard]

Thank you for being thrilled with the kids. We did not all, however, bring up the lights and fogs...one 19 year old poster did. You were a bit mistaken- just wanted to clear that up!

Furthermore, I am a WPF Minister's wife...I don't have a problem with light and fog. I believe in the right place and setting, it is great for youth ministry....

I am truly excited every service when our young people experience God...we were all just excited about PEAK this week....

GOD BLESS!

You are welcome!

I saw on this thread to what I believed is a WPF member talk about not needing crazy lights and such. That is what I was speaking too, not specifically you. NO harm intended and I hope NO harm was taken. Apologies.

The thrust of my post was to make a point that while God changed lives and such-which is a GREAT thing-I felt that was being over-shadowed by the talk of lights and fog. I am certainly for fog and lights, as you said, in the proper settings. If the church does not appeal to the youth of today it can make our job tougher. No length should be spared in reaching the lost, NONE!

Keep up the good work there. I believe God gives us all the ability to put our friends and family into a great place to be touched by His hand-whether you are Ultra Con or Ultra Lib so long as you have a heart and a desire for Jesus. Again, keep up the good work.

[ItalianApo]

Great Post! I too am perplexed why all the WPF folks are bringing up the lighting situation. Not only I am seeing this mentioned on this forum, but on various WPF member blogs as well. The only way it can be taken is as a slight against the UPC youth conferences.

While I am rejoicing with the WPF folks that many hearts and lives were touched and changed at PEAK, the same is true for the UPC events. At the Western District youth convention this past March, there were lights and many hearts and lives were touched and changed as well.



I never said the fog & lights were wrong, just that God can move in a youth conference without them. I am not bashing the UPC because my church is still UPC! But I am not defined by an organization, just by my walk with God. I have experienced MANY great conferences in the UPC so i am not downplaying the organization at all...God is still doing a great work in alot of the churches! I'm sorry if my comments were taken the wrong way!

[Jack Shephard]

We all have a right to voice our concerns. And we have a right to call things wrong when we percieve it as such. Fog machines and strobe lights DO NOT Belong in the Sanctuary. When the upci youth conferences started using them, was when a lot of churches started teaching and preaching against them. Get over it. The WPF is not going away and will continue naming the sins and the weights which can so easily beset us.
The posts that you are responding to are from young people who had a great experience at a conference. Lets just focus on that. No hard feelings, but everybody bashes the WPF on here, and I am done tolerating it.

You certainly have you right to point out what you believe to be wrong as do we. I personally believe there is NO issue with lights and fog and such being sin. For goodness sake if the 'world' does something that don't the church can't do some of it. If your arguement is that the bars and clubs have the lights and fog then by all means a church should NEVER use music, never have carpet or hardwood floors anywhere. They should not have walls, roofs, etc. There is NOTHING in the scripture that tells us that these lights and fog machines are sin.

Also if you are trying to quote scripture with the underlined portion remember that it is the 'the sin(no plurality) that so easily besets us.' Lights and Fog machines are not sin not matter how you slice it.

PS. no harm intended in this post.

[Kutless]

We all have a right to voice our concerns. And we have a right to call things wrong when we percieve it as such. Fog machines and strobe lights DO NOT Belong in the Sanctuary. When the upci youth conferences started using them, was when a lot of churches started teaching and preaching against them. Get over it. The WPF is not going away and will continue naming the sins and the weights which can so easily beset us.

The posts that you are responding to are from young people who had a great experience at a conference. Lets just focus on that. No hard feelings, but everybody bashes the WPF on here, and I am done tolerating it.This is silly

[Sister Alvear]

I think God speaks to people in many different ways...Paul the great evangelist and There are too many babies in Pentecost if things are not done their way they pout. It is time we mature and reach the world for Jesus...If lights turn you off...try something else.

Politics turn me off...but some churches thrive on it. We all have something that turns us off. However if I happen to be at a church where they are making their speechs or whatever I don´t go into pout mode...

[Sister Alvear]

WWF, UPC, ALJC, AMF or whatever are ALL man made...God had nothing to do with making any of them...
They are just organizations like the CIA,FBI or whatever...
I see none of them as God´s present to the world. They are generally a means of like minded people putting their efforts together for a cause...
Jesus Christ and His grace and Mercy are God´s gift to a lost world...see that we exalt HIM and HIM alone.

[theoldpaths]

WWF, UPC, ALJC, AMF or whatever are ALL man made...God had nothing to do with making any of them...
They are just organizations like the CIA,FBI or whatever...
I see none of them as God´s present to the world. They are generally a means of like minded people putting their efforts together for a cause...
Jesus Christ and His grace and Mercy are God´s gift to a lost world...see that we exalt HIM and HIM alone.

God had nothing to do with making any of them


Wow - a very bold statement indeed. Are you 100% sure that God had absolutely nothing to do with them coming together? How much have you read on the history of these organizations being created?

They are just organizations like the CIA,FBI or whatever

They are not "just" organizations - they are organizations created for a divinely spiritual purpose - to preach Jesus and his word and to spread the gospel to the world. Therefore there is a BIG difference b/n apostolic holiness organizations and secular organizations that have absolutely nothing to do with the apostolic message.

Are you anti-organizational?

He is indeed worthy.

There is scripture though for giving honor to men...

Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine.

1Pe 2:17 Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

God bless.

[RandyWayne]

Wow - a very bold statement indeed. Are you 100% sure that God had absolutely nothing to do with them coming together? How much have you read on the history of these organizations being created?



They are not "just" organizations - they are organizations created for a divinely spiritual purpose - to preach Jesus and his word and to spread the gospel to the world. Therefore there is a BIG difference b/n apostolic holiness organizations and secular organizations that have absolutely nothing to do with the apostolic message.

Are you anti-organizational?

He is indeed worthy.

There is scripture though for giving honor to men...

Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine.

1Pe 2:17 Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

God bless.

Your scripture is meaningless in trying to prove YOUR point. All it proves is that God honors man-made organizations!

"Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor."

This verse can apply just as well to the elected president of our current 4-H chapter.

[Sister Alvear]

I still don´t think GOD had anything to do with it in the sense that it is His plan for there to be a UPC or WWF..It is God`s plan that there be a church. He left no organization He left a plan for a church...a body of believers.

[Sister Alvear]

Please understand I am not saying you can or cannot belong I am just saying I see the Bible teaching a body of believers...

[Sister Alvear]

and I am not trying to fuss with you OP...that is just my opinion.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Woo-hoo, Sis. A. speaking with some boldness! Good to see a like minded sister, I'll have to visit you all in Brazil some day, my pastor is going to Brazil this September. Another inde... I mean, apostolic believer (notice the Bible didn't tell us to be "independents" that's just the label given to those of us who don't join the orgs that also aren't authorized by the Word)!

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[tv1a]

Looks like you would have had a problem with the worship at the Temple. Solomon brought out the heavy artillery at the temple dedication. If lights and smoke were available back then he would have used it.



We all have a right to voice our concerns. And we have a right to call things wrong when we percieve it as such. Fog machines and strobe lights DO NOT Belong in the Sanctuary. When the upci youth conferences started using them, was when a lot of churches started teaching and preaching against them. Get over it. The WPF is not going away and will continue naming the sins and the weights which can so easily beset us.

The posts that you are responding to are from young people who had a great experience at a conference. Lets just focus on that. No hard feelings, but everybody bashes the WPF on here, and I am done tolerating it.

[Sister Alvear]

I know of no independents in Brazil except Brazilian groups. If Americans are involved they usually belong to something. I am not against the UPC but that does not mean I am for or against any Organization.
I am not a political person...and in 40 years of ministry I have yet to see an organization that does not have politics of some kind.

[TCSQ]

I still don´t think GOD had anything to do with it in the sense that it is His plan for there to be a UPC or WWF..It is God`s plan that there be a church. He left no organization He left a plan for a church...a body of believers.


Hmmmm, so what will you call this new religion of yours.....this "Body of Believers"? Christians? Can we DO that? Is it ALLOWED????

[TCSQ]

Looks like you would have had a problem with the worship at the Temple. Solomon brought out the heavy artillery at the temple dedication. If lights and smoke were available back then he would have used it.



I think that is just the point! He did NOT (you think they didnt have lights and smoke???) No what was so glorious about the dedication of the temple was not MAN MADE lights and smoke, but the SUPERNATURAL move and manifestation of the Holy Ghost! What many lament in regard to this whole theme is often poorly articulated but I would say they really discern and in many cases it is more than evident, that the next generation of pentecost is receiving a high tech (read strobe lights, smoke machines, disco ball) man made substitute for a genuine move of God. it would be better addressed in asking WHY so many saints of God DO feel troubled by these things. I dont feel they have stated their case very well, and it DOES appear that the many times they mention the move into technology it appears as though technology scares them when nothing could be farther from the truth. What scares them is a generation of Pentecostal young people who in more and more areas have NEVER had a dream from the Lord, NEVER been used in Tongues and Interpretation , Prophesy, a word of knowledge or wisdom, etc etc. Now WHOSE fault that is would be a MOST interesting subject for discussion I think that THEY might be MOST surprised at the outcome.

But the above post demonstrates exactly what they are afraid of, expressions of how man made technology would be used and NO mention or intimation that the most important part of that whole story alluded to was the Shekinah Glory that came down (And that we are still speaking about over two thousand years later!) not man made manufactured substitues for it.

[revrandy]

This whole premise of calling lights....fog...and other sundry items is almost laughable....

I have been in one of the church's of the leadership/pioneer of the WPF...they use the Stick Ministry...Deaf Praise and Drama...and video....with lights...Fog....and everything else.....just like the other churches....

I don't see you criticizing them????

The point is you are either echoing somebody's pulpit or just a complainer.... either of the two would probably fit....

I for one am glad they had a tremendous time in Tulsa.... that is great.....

I am also glad for churches who use unorthodox methods to win other young people to the Lord...and give their young people a chance to express themselves!!....

Some of you guys should preach overseas on the Islands and watch the Kids dance and worship with their whistles.... and come in the sanctuary... it is absolutely beautiful...but I know if you stayed any length of time they would come to know HOW undodly they are and buy a suit, put on a tie so they could fit in....

[Baron1710]

This whole premise of calling lights....fog...and other sundry items is almost laughable....

I have been in one of the church's of the leadership/pioneer of the WPF...they use the Stick Ministry...Deaf Praise and Drama...and video....with lights...Fog....and everything else.....just like the other churches....

I don't see you criticizing them????

The point is you are either echoing somebody's pulpit or just a complainer.... either of the two would probably fit....

I for one am glad they had a tremendous time in Tulsa.... that is great.....

I am also glad for churches who use unorthodox methods to win other young people to the Lord...and give their young people a chance to express themselves!!....

Some of you guys should preach overseas on the Islands and watch the Kids dance and worship with their whistles.... and come in the sanctuary... it is absolutely beautiful...but I know if you stayed any length of time they would come to know HOW undodly they are and buy a suit, put on a tie so they could fit in....

Liberal!!

[Pastor Keith]

That is great !!!! And people say our young people want the blacklights and smoke filled youth services, no, I beg to differ, they are hungry for the truth.... Thank God for the WPF

Yes, blacklights and smoke diminishes the power of truth!

[tv1a]

Solomon used technology that was available to him at the time. The worship was man made...



I think that is just the point! He did NOT (you think they didnt have lights and smoke???) No what was so glorious about the dedication of the temple was not MAN MADE lights and smoke, but the SUPERNATURAL move and manifestation of the Holy Ghost! What many lament in regard to this whole theme is often poorly articulated but I would say they really discern and in many cases it is more than evident, that the next generation of pentecost is receiving a high tech (read strobe lights, smoke machines, disco ball) man made substitute for a genuine move of God. it would be better addressed in asking WHY so many saints of God DO feel troubled by these things. I dont feel they have stated their case very well, and it DOES appear that the many times they mention the move into technology it appears as though technology scares them when nothing could be farther from the truth. What scares them is a generation of Pentecostal young people who in more and more areas have NEVER had a dream from the Lord, NEVER been used in Tongues and Interpretation , Prophesy, a word of knowledge or wisdom, etc etc. Now WHOSE fault that is would be a MOST interesting subject for discussion I think that THEY might be MOST surprised at the outcome.

But the above post demonstrates exactly what they are afraid of, expressions of how man made technology would be used and NO mention or intimation that the most important part of that whole story alluded to was the Shekinah Glory that came down (And that we are still speaking about over two thousand years later!) not man made manufactured substitues for it.

[Whole Hearted]

I have heard nothing but good reports about the meeting, unlike some other youth meeting of the past.

Thank God they didn't go yo Egypt for help with the use of fog, flashing light and other stupid worldly stuff. We don't need to go to Egypt of help we need to go to God in pray for a REAL move of God.

Thank God for the WPF and this good meeting.

We will be there next year.

[AmazingGrace]

I have heard nothing but good reports about the meeting, unlike some other youth meeting of the past.

Thank God they didn't go yo Egypt for help with the use of fog, flashing light and other stupid worldly stuff. We don't need to go to Egypt of help we need to go to God in pray for a REAL move of God.

Thank God for the WPF and this good meeting.

We will be there next year.

You know with that attitude the UPC would be greatful you are THERE and not where they are! With that attitude some would be thankful you are gone....

[Whole Hearted]

You know with that attitude the UPC would be greatful you are THERE and not where they are! With that attitude some would be thankful you are gone....

And with their attitude and spirit and worldly ways I will be glad to be elsewhere.

[Michael Phelps]

And with their attitude and spirit and worldly ways I will be glad to be elsewhere.

Just curious, how old are you? Your responses are very "junior high" -ish.

I have to be honest WH, I may get in trouble for saying this, but for all the things you condemn, i.e. lights, smoke machines, shorts on men, facial hair, etc., this self-righteous spirit displayed here is a thousand times worse.

I am glad that I am not in your shoes.

[tv1a]

Whole Hearted is what we call spritiual dsyfuntional. His spiritual performance is lacking in areas the important areas so he attempts to for compensate his spiritual dysfunction in irrelevant areas. He fits in well with the spiritual dysfunction bunch at the wpf.

Just curious, how old are you? Your responses are very "junior high" -ish.

I have to be honest WH, I may get in trouble for saying this, but for all the things you condemn, i.e. lights, smoke machines, shorts on men, facial hair, etc., this self-righteous spirit displayed here is a thousand times worse.

I am glad that I am not in your shoes.

[Consapostolic1]

Can this thread please stay on topic about the good experiences from PEAK rather than individuals stereotyping a whole group based on a few acts of others.

[tstew]

Can this thread please stay on topic about the good experiences from PEAK rather than individuals stereotyping a whole group based on a few acts of others.

The problem is that very few people had good things to say about PEAK without taking a direct shot at other people of God. It never ceases to amaze me that when people go hard in either direction (Right or Left), they claim a new found Spirituality and Enlightenment, but for the life of me I do have a hard time seeing the fruits of that in their conversation.
I am a member of a Sports Forum whose members seem to have more Christ-like qualities.

[Sister Alvear]

sad isn´t it?

[TCSQ]

The problem is that very few people had good things to say about PEAK without taking a direct shot at other people of God. It never ceases to amaze me that when people go hard in either direction (Right or Left), they claim a new found Spirituality and Enlightenment, but for the life of me I do have a hard time seeing the fruits of that in their conversation.
I am a member of a Sports Forum whose members seem to have more Christ-like qualities.



With all due respect, I went back over all the posts on this thread and can't for the life of me find anyone taking pot shots at other people of God, although some do indeed express their opposition to what they may see as the substitution of technological special effects for a genuine move of the Holy Ghost. No one seems to have taken their reservations or opposition seriously only attempting to refute those feelings by insult and dismissal.

I saw NO claims of "NEW FOUND" spiritual enlightenment, rather the expression of frustration at what ALL of us must see as a problem that faces each stage of our generational walk with God and that being of course the fearful desire that the NEXT generation will not receive a "relgion" as much as they receive a RELATIONSHIP with God.

As I said earlier the fear in back of all of this has NOTHING to do with lights or fog but rather with those special effects OFTENTIMES masking the absence of a genuine move of God. And to quote Justice Potter Stewart, even though "I may not be able to DEFINE that ...I KNOW IT WHEN I SEE IT!"

Overall the whining I see comes from people like Tv1 who has from the beginning betrayed some kind of minor obsession with taking every opportunity they have to denigrate the men who formed the WPF. And believe me they did not form it ALONE. Nor did they form it overnight.
But hundreds if not thousands of Apostolic Men and Women have for quite some time felt very uncomfortable with the trends and direction that they saw THEIR organization following and in several YEARS of behind the scenes conversations and meetings have pushed for and hoped for an alternative to that.

If someone wants to continue down that road, certainly no one will stop them, but this constant complaining about "whining" is coming from one of the biggest whiners out there. (At least when it comes to the WPF)

But to return to the theme of THIS thread I see NO ONE pointing at anything other than the aforementioned distaste (at least in their mouth) for what they see as the substitution of technology for an old fashioned move of the Holy Ghost.


And instead of jumping on them a wise man would take a moment and ask them WHY DO YOU FEEL THAT THAT IS LACKING?

[tv1a]

The fist salvo was fired when a post said it all was done without smoke and lights. The cheap shot was fired by an embittered wpf'er.

As you so eloquently put in your post this wpf was in formation for years. The wpf was established because enough people in the upci said enough with the useless unscriptural idolatry. When a group of leaders deliberately spread misinformation then start their organization because the misinformation was proved wrong, it's not God ordained organization.

Legalists have been whining for years. Legalists have worshipped the brazen serpant of man made tradition. Legalism is demonic force. Read Galatians. Again I ask why does someone want that organization founded on false pretense. Smoke or no smoke.



With all due respect, I went back over all the posts on this thread and can't for the life of me find anyone taking pot shots at other people of God, although some do indeed express their opposition to what they may see as the substitution of technological special effects for a genuine move of the Holy Ghost. No one seems to have taken their reservations or opposition seriously only attempting to refute those feelings by insult and dismissal.

I saw NO claims of "NEW FOUND" spiritual enlightenment, rather the expression of frustration at what ALL of us must see as a problem that faces each stage of our generational walk with God and that being of course the fearful desire that the NEXT generation will not receive a "relgion" as much as they receive a RELATIONSHIP with God.

As I said earlier the fear in back of all of this has NOTHING to do with lights or fog but rather with those special effects OFTENTIMES masking the absence of a genuine move of God. And to quote Justice Potter Stewart, even though "I may not be able to DEFINE that ...I KNOW IT WHEN I SEE IT!"

Overall the whining I see comes from people like Tv1 who has from the beginning betrayed some kind of minor obsession with taking every opportunity they have to denigrate the men who formed the WPF. And believe me they did not form it ALONE. Nor did they form it overnight.
But hundreds if not thousands of Apostolic Men and Women have for quite some time felt very uncomfortable with the trends and direction that they saw THEIR organization following and in several YEARS of behind the scenes conversations and meetings have pushed for and hoped for an alternative to that.

If someone wants to continue down that road, certainly no one will stop them, but this constant complaining about "whining" is coming from one of the biggest whiners out there. (At least when it comes to the WPF)

But to return to the theme of THIS thread I see NO ONE pointing at anything other than the aforementioned distaste (at least in their mouth) for what they see as the substitution of technology for an old fashioned move of the Holy Ghost.


And instead of jumping on them a wise man would take a moment and ask them WHY DO YOU FEEL THAT THAT IS LACKING?

[TCSQ]

[QUOTE=tv1a;573807]The fist salvo was fired when a post said it all was done without smoke and lights. The cheap shot was fired by an embittered wpf'er.



Gee I am looking here and am kind of at a loss to find that post. What is the "IT" you are referring to?

[Tim Rutledge]

[QUOTE=tv1a;573807]The fist salvo was fired when a post said it all was done without smoke and lights. The cheap shot was fired by an embittered wpf'er.



Gee I am looking here and am kind of at a loss to find that post. What is the "IT" you are referring to?

TCSQ,
I've come to the conclusion that I'm using the ignore option more often. Talk about embitterment.. the upc can't stand that the WPF is thriving. Honestly, of course, I hope the same for the upci. The upc would, and is, a relatively good stepping stone onto the WPF.:oops

[TCSQ]

[QUOTE=Tim Rutledge;573872][QUOTE=TCSQ;573841]

TCSQ,
Talk about embitterment.. the upc can't stand that the WPF is thriving.


THAT is becoming more and more evident given the tenor of much of what appears on this board by those who are not in that group.

I dont see any where near that kind of hate coming from the WPF crowd on this board to the UPC. Maybe its just the squeaky wheels though, they need to be greased or something. I am sure there are lots of people who do NOT belong to the WPF who dont take every opportunity they can to inmpugn its ledership, or its members.

[Michael Phelps]

[QUOTE=Tim Rutledge;573872][QUOTE=TCSQ;573841]

TCSQ,
Talk about embitterment.. the upc can't stand that the WPF is thriving.


THAT is becoming more and more evident given the tenor of much of what appears on this board by those who are not in that group.

I dont see any where near that kind of hate coming from the WPF crowd on this board to the UPC. Maybe its just the squeaky wheels though, they need to be greased or something. I am sure there are lots of people who do NOT belong to the WPF who dont take every opportunity they can to inmpugn its ledership, or its members.


Uh, just go up a few posts and read WholeHearted's comments about the UPC.

Trust me, it works both ways, I"m quite sure.

Now, I have no dog in this fight, because I'm neither UPC or WPF. However, I kind of thought this thread had turned into a "Smoke machines and lights vs. NO smoke machines and lights" thread?

I must have missed the turn it took into the UPC vs. WPF abyss.

[Tim Rutledge]

[QUOTE=TCSQ;573891][QUOTE=Tim Rutledge;573872]


Uh, just go up a few posts and read WholeHearted's comments about the UPC.

Trust me, it works both ways, I"m quite sure.

Now, I have no dog in this fight, because I'm neither UPC or WPF. However, I kind of thought this thread had turned into a "Smoke machines and lights vs. NO smoke machines and lights" thread?

I must have missed the turn it took into the UPC vs. WPF abyss.

Uh,

nevermind.

[Tim Rutledge]

I just found out you cannot put a Administrator/Moderator on your ignore list.

[Michael Phelps]

I just found out you cannot put a Administrator/Moderator on your ignore list.

Who did you want to put on ignore?

[tv1a]

The prophets of baal thrived for a while as well. We know how that cult ended up. The wpf leaders mislead people and deliberately caused division in non-salvational issues. They worship the brazen serpent of traditionalism. When people stopped drinking their kook aid they realized the only thing legalists wanted was status quo. WPF leaders were violating scripture long before becoming an official organization. Spiritually speaking the organization is no better than those who wear white hoods and burn crosses. Scripture is explicit about division over minor issues. Paul says in Galations that legalism is whitchcraft. When one bases their doctrine on legalism one may as well turn their Star of David into a pentegram. That's what it looks like in God's eyes/




[quote=Tim Rutledge;573872][quote=TCSQ;573841]

TCSQ,
Talk about embitterment.. the upc can't stand that the WPF is thriving.


THAT is becoming more and more evident given the tenor of much of what appears on this board by those who are not in that group.

I dont see any where near that kind of hate coming from the WPF crowd on this board to the UPC. Maybe its just the squeaky wheels though, they need to be greased or something. I am sure there are lots of people who do NOT belong to the WPF who dont take every opportunity they can to inmpugn its ledership, or its members.

[tstew]

With all due respect, I went back over all the posts on this thread and can't for the life of me find anyone taking pot shots at other people of God, although some do indeed express their opposition to what they may see as the substitution of technological special effects for a genuine move of the Holy Ghost. No one seems to have taken their reservations or opposition seriously only attempting to refute those feelings by insult and dismissal.

I saw NO claims of "NEW FOUND" spiritual enlightenment, rather the expression of frustration at what ALL of us must see as a problem that faces each stage of our generational walk with God and that being of course the fearful desire that the NEXT generation will not receive a "relgion" as much as they receive a RELATIONSHIP with God.

As I said earlier the fear in back of all of this has NOTHING to do with lights or fog but rather with those special effects OFTENTIMES masking the absence of a genuine move of God. And to quote Justice Potter Stewart, even though "I may not be able to DEFINE that ...I KNOW IT WHEN I SEE IT!"

Overall the whining I see comes from people like Tv1 who has from the beginning betrayed some kind of minor obsession with taking every opportunity they have to denigrate the men who formed the WPF. And believe me they did not form it ALONE. Nor did they form it overnight.
But hundreds if not thousands of Apostolic Men and Women have for quite some time felt very uncomfortable with the trends and direction that they saw THEIR organization following and in several YEARS of behind the scenes conversations and meetings have pushed for and hoped for an alternative to that.

If someone wants to continue down that road, certainly no one will stop them, but this constant complaining about "whining" is coming from one of the biggest whiners out there. (At least when it comes to the WPF)

But to return to the theme of THIS thread I see NO ONE pointing at anything other than the aforementioned distaste (at least in their mouth) for what they see as the substitution of technology for an old fashioned move of the Holy Ghost.


And instead of jumping on them a wise man would take a moment and ask them WHY DO YOU FEEL THAT THAT IS LACKING?

TC, anyone with two brain cells can see what the reference to lights and such was all about. For some reason this has become a recurring criticism of the UPC (not just something mentioned in passing on this thread). My point was that I would much rather see a praise report without the subsequent pot shots.
My statement about newfound enlightenment and greater spirituality is something that I hear from both sides of the spectrum in a number of venues (both online and in person). It is just my observation that I personally don't see the fruit of it in people's attitudes and conversation.
Personally, I could generally care less what others are doing. I'm just glad to be a part of a revival church who pulls in and affects more unchurched people (who have never heard this Apostolic message)...than churches 3 times our size. Evangelism and reaching those who have never heard this message is what matters to me.

[TCSQ]

TC, anyone with two brain cells can see what the reference to lights and such was all about. For some reason this has become a recurring criticism of the UPC (not just something mentioned in passing on this thread). My point was that I would much rather see a praise report without the subsequent pot shots.




I definitely would too, but really I think we can all draw back just a bit and see that there is a lot more to the criticism of lights and smoke machines than a criticism of the United Pentecostal Church, especially as ***IN*** the United Pentecostal Church there are many loyal members in the ministry who have no intention presently of leaving it that are deeply disturbed by the TREND that those things represent (at least to them) and feel the right to vocalize those feelings. (They Do have that right don't they?)

You look like you are at least in the same neighbourhood age wise as I am, maybe a tad younger, BUT I am sure you remember where all the psychedelic lights and disco balls and strobes and smoke machines had their origin.

I think every time I see them "One pill takes you up and the other makes you small and the ones your mother gives you dont do anything at all, ask Alice what the door mouse said, feed your head , feeeeeed your head."

Many of us who DO remember where those things first appealed to young people the atmosphere we found OURSELVES in and the aura that they created, we are asking ourselves repeatedly, what part of that atmosphere are they trying to recreate? The strobes, the flashes, the colours dancing around, all were part of simulating and STIMULATING acid trips. Is it any wonder that there is a very STRONG distaste to see those accoutrements of LSD and DRUG USE now being incorporated into Pentecostal worship? And dont you think that those reservations deserve to be heard?



********************THEN YOU SAID********************

My statement about newfound enlightenment and greater spirituality is something that I hear from both sides of the spectrum in a number of venues (both online and in person). It is just my observation that I personally don't see the fruit of it in people's attitudes and conversation.


****************MY RESPONSE*************************

I dont either! I feel that both the conservatives as well as the liberals are so far from the place that God is desperately trying to bring us to and we are debating yay or nay on Strobe Lights when we definitely need to move WAAAAAY past that. I will say though that I was referring to THIS sspecific thread and noted that the one who raised the voice about the pot shots and stuff was actually the very first one to go negative in his attack of what he perceives to be Baal Worshippers. ( Now do you see the real spirit that I am reacting to? IT'S CERTAINLY NOT YOUR POST , just wanted to point out that on THIS thread as best as I can tell the REAL negativity begins in posts 12 and 13 where the meeting was pretty much marginalized and the implication of falsification and lying about attendance was levelled by the same man who goes on in this SAME thread to level the charge of the WPF brethren being Baal Worshippers, having deceived ministers (as though the men who have left the UPC are all mindless idiots, weak minded individuals, rubes ripe for the pickin') To me and I ask you, do you see ANYTHING even approaching that level of vitriol being voiced towards the United Pentecostal Church on THIS thread? Because it seemed to me that what the claim was that it was on THIS thread that the pot shots all started and people were just responding to it, and frankly, its just not here.



***********************YOU SAID************************
Personally, I could generally care less what others are doing. I'm just glad to be a part of a revival church who pulls in and affects more unchurched people (who have never heard this Apostolic message)...than churches 3 times our size.

*********************I RESPOND***************************
I agree one TRILLION percent. I have been in churches where they put on Dowel Rod presentations and was deeply and wonderfully touched. I would have no problem with the strobe lights etc in some kind of appropriate setting like a play or something, but honestly Brother, in the WORSHIP service? Those lights have a definite affect on peoples senses, in fact they can have such an effect that people can and have literally gone into seizures from being in that atmosphere. Again, WHY would we want to bring this into the worship service for either our Older saints or our Youth?


**************************YOU SAID***********************

Evangelism and reaching those who have never heard this message is what matters to me.


*************************I RESPOND************
Exactly! Evangelism, reaching the lost! That is done like Paul of Old said with the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost NOT by the technological special effects (and that IS what they are no matter how we cut it) of the day.

I think ultimately you and I are on the same page, however the issue really is NOT about the lights per se, but rather a lot of people who DO have the right to voice concerns and worries and even distaste for certain things are evidently the Priests and Prophets of Baal for doing so. Tell me someone doesn't have a bit of a screw loose at least in that area.

[tstew]

*************************I RESPOND************
Exactly! Evangelism, reaching the lost! That is done like Paul of Old said with the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost NOT by the technological special effects (and that IS what they are no matter how we cut it) of the day.

I think ultimately you and I are on the same page, however the issue really is NOT about the lights per se, but rather a lot of people who DO have the right to voice concerns and worries and even distaste for certain things are evidently the Priests and Prophets of Baal for doing so. Tell me someone doesn't have a bit of a screw loose at least in that area.

TC, I have had church in perhaps every imaginable circumstance...including services where the nearest electricty was hundreds of miles away so there was not even incadescent light. I have had church in the most cutting edge of sanctuaries and in mud huts and outside under a tree. I have sung where the only instruments were what you could make with your hands and this morning we had church with three keyboards, a drumset, two percussionist, and a B-3 organ. In all of those environments I have seen God move mightily and have learned to keep the main thing the main thing.
There will always be some differences in what we have and what we utilize. I'm sure that there are many instruments and technologies that we use for good that people also use for evil. I just hate to see so many people majoring in the minors.

[TCSQ]

TC, I have had church in perhaps every imaginable circumstance...including services where the nearest electricty was hundreds of miles away so there was not even incadescent light. I have had church in the most cutting edge of sanctuaries and in mud huts and outside under a tree. I have sung where the only instruments were what you could make with your hands and this morning we had church with three keyboards, a drumset, two percussionist, and a B-3 organ. In all of those environments I have seen God move mightily and have learned to keep the main thing the main thing.
There will always be some differences in what we have and what we utilize. I'm sure that there are many instruments and technologies that we use for good that people also use for evil. I just hate to see so many people majoring in the minors.



Me too. However, right after I posted that last reply concerning the lights and stuff, I thought, "Why not surf the net to see, WHAT are the effects of this kind of thing. And so lo and behold on the VERY FIRST SEARCH THIS comes up, I will post the link here. Amazing to see virtually my whole opinion stated NOT in a religious forum but rather in a secular article.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strobe


I think that the real problem is (AGAIN) that the people who are uncomfortable with these lights are just not articulating the REASON why they feel that way very well, and as with most Pentecostal Issues, EMOTION takes over rather than a calm discussion. Without question the affect of these lights is to put people into an altered state, stimulating the brain through distorting the senses (In this case the visual senses) The more I consider it the more I am opposed to this as well. It certainly has not brought out the best in some of us I am sure, but ultimately something that CAN produce an altered state of consciousness is NOT something I want MY young people that I am responsible for exposed to, and have to ask why the desire for it?

[Michael Phelps]

Me too. However, right after I posted that last reply concerning the lights and stuff, I thought, "Why not surf the net to see, WHAT are the effects of this kind of thing. And so lo and behold on the VERY FIRST SEARCH THIS comes up, I will post the link here. Amazing to see virtually my whole opinion stated NOT in a religious forum but rather in a secular article.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strobe


I think that the real problem is (AGAIN) that the people who are uncomfortable with these lights are just not articulating the REASON why they feel that way very well, and as with most Pentecostal Issues, EMOTION takes over rather than a calm discussion. Without question the affect of these lights is to put people into an altered state, stimulating the brain through distorting the senses (In this case the visual senses) The more I consider it the more I am opposed to this as well. It certainly has not brought out the best in some of us I am sure, but ultimately something that CAN produce an altered state of consciousness is NOT something I want MY young people that I am responsible for exposed to, and have to ask why the desire for it?

I suppose, based on this article, we should get rid of them on our police cars are burglar alarms too. Also, we shouldn't use them for scientific purposes.

[TCSQ]

I suppose, based on this article, we should get rid of them on our police cars are burglar alarms too. Also, we shouldn't use them for scientific purposes.



No what you CAN suppose based on this article is that these lights are widely recognized as producing altered states of consciousness, were designed to enhance LSD and other HALLUCINOGENIC drug trips, can lead to such an altered state of consciousness that they can induce seizures and that the desire to bring these things into Pentecostal worship displays a very troubling trend.

Or were you now contending that we should bring in Police car lights and set off burglar alarms to enhance the worship as well?

Its not as ludicrous as it sounds as all THOSE special effects also go hand in hand with the direction that this is leading in.

[Michael Phelps]

No what you CAN suppose based on this article is that these lights are widely recognized as producing altered states of consciousness, were designed to enhance LSD and other HALLUCINOGENIC drug trips, can lead to such an altered state of consciousness that they can induce seizures and that the desire to bring these things into Pentecostal worship displays a very troubling trend.

Or were you now contending that we should bring in Police car lights and set off burglar alarms to enhance the worship as well?

Its not as ludicrous as it sounds as all THOSE special effects also go hand in hand with the direction that this is leading in.

Lol, to say that strobe lights induce an altered state of consciousness in and of themselves is to say that black hair dye causes brain cancer.

Sorry.

I would not disagree that prolonged exposure to strobe lights with mind altering chemicals could create an alternate reality, and yes, I wouldn't doubt that the drug scene utilizes strobe lights.

However, they utilize guitars, amplifiers, drums, keyboards, etc. too - are we now going to outlaw THOSE in our worship services?

Aren't there enough real evils to preach against without having to make something innocuous like a strobe light evil in and of itself?

And, I would be curious as to how many people who preach against strobe lights in worship use them in Easter dramas and CHristmas dramas?

[TCSQ]

[QUOTE=Michael Phelps;574004]Lol, to say that strobe lights induce an altered state of consciousness in and of themselves is to say that black hair dye causes brain cancer.

Sorry.

****I RESPOND*************************
Actually it is NOT. Strobe lights can and DO cause altered states of consciousness, perception and Can and DO cause seizures WITHOUT being combined with mind altering drugs. They are mind altering in and of themselves! Just because that is something you dont want to hear does not make it any less true.


***************************YOU SAY****************

I would not disagree that prolonged exposure to strobe lights with mind altering chemicals could create an alternate reality, and yes, I wouldn't doubt that the drug scene utilizes strobe lights.


*********************I RESPOND*******************

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS??????????? (good grief)


***********************YOU SAY*************************

However, they utilize guitars, amplifiers, drums, keyboards, etc. too - are we now going to outlaw THOSE in our worship services?



*****************************I RESPOND*****************
If they produce ALTERED STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS I would be among the first to shout YES!


*******************************YOU SAY*******************
Aren't there enough real evils to preach against without having to make something innocuous like a strobe light evil in and of itself?


********************I RESPOND**********************

You know, when different men of God start to raise a warning flag, it would do us well to consider that warning. It certainly is not a major issue with them, but the current need to confront this thing DOES MAKE IT SEEM THAT WAY. THEY SENSE THAT THERE IS MUCH MORE TO THIS TREND THAN MERELY A BLINKING LIGHT. You should know that. It is not a reaction to electricity. Not a reaction to smoke, there is definitely something else in back of all of this which is why people are becoming SPIRITUALLY and SOULISHLY or EMOTIONALLY worked up on this issue. Again WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?



****************YOU SAY*****************************
And, I would be curious as to how many people who preach against strobe lights in worship use them in Easter dramas and CHristmas dramas?

***************I RESPOND*******************************
Again in their place such as a play they may indeed have a place, although the more I look into the effect they are KNOWN to produce the more I would feel it is not something good to do.

I remember many years ago the effect that strobe lights had on ME.

I was NOT on drugs, had been in church for years. Some of us had gone to one of those Youth for Christ type haunted houses. As we were going through it, we went into one room where every thing was painted checkerboard black and white. The walls the floors and there was some guy in there bouncing around and HE was painted in black and white squares to blend in with the background. Well that was kind of dorky, no affect at all, but then they turned on the strobes, and in seconds I literally was losing consciousness, I have never had an epileptic seziure but that was all I can compare my reaction to, I felt my eyes rolling UP back inside my head, I reached out to the brother in front of me and said, somethings wrong ....., and started to buckle and go down to the floor, my friends literally had to grab me by each arm and lift me and walk me out of the room.

There is such a strong feeling FOR the use of these lights that it makes me wonder WHY!? Could it be that there IS a mild or even stronger state of altererd consciousness that these are producing that is almost druglike in its affect and that the voices so adamantly in demand of this are really betraying an almost addict like desire for their fix?


Just a thought, I really feel it is something much more akin to this picture in my mind......

Little kids being told they cant have something that they desperately want and throwing themselves down on the floor and kicking with their heels yelling................I WANT MY LIGHTS GIMME MY LIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGHTSS!!!!

If you are in a church or as a pastor have decided to have these lights... knock yourself out!

But the more I look into them and the KNOWN effect the have on people the more certain I am becoming that there definitely is a very serious trend toward something other than spiritual worship that the demand for these lights is symptomatic or indicative of.

[Michael Phelps]

If you are in a church or as a pastor have decided to have these lights... knock yourself out!

But the more I look into them and the KNOWN effect the have on people the more certain I am becoming that there definitely is a very serious trend toward something other than spiritual worship that the demand for these lights is symptomatic or indicative of.

Now, this I can agree with.

It's all about the application. With strobe lights, in my opinion, it's all about moderation. THe sun is good, but if you stare into it, you can go blind. Water is good, but if you get in over your head, you can drown. Music is great, but as we know, according to some, certain types of music can make a person want to do drugs, commit suicide, etc. (Ref: Steve Timmons, the anti-rock and roll preacher).

I appreciate your attitude toward this issue, and your study of the subject is admirable.

I really don't see anyone kicking and screaming and throwing a fit for their lights, they, along with me, are simply questioning the stance that some have taken AGAINST the lights and fog machines.

[tv1a]

I love MP's comments about majoring over the minors. The same people who complain about lights are the first in line to amen the preacher when he says he needs the hammond organ to bring the annointing. How about the white preachers saying we need some more black people in the choir. They know how to sing.

What is lost in the lights or no lights discussion is Paul's admonishment by all means win some. If smoke and lights is what it takes to get someone to make a commitment to follow Christ, turn off the fire alarm and flip the breakers. One soul is woth it.

We don't mind using emotion to scare people out of hell and into heaven. God forbid if we use a lights and smoke. If you are worried about kids going into seizures, why not use the power that God gave you and pray the prayer of faith for healing?

It is stupid for anyone to change partners in the middle of the dance because the song changed. It is the same band, same salvational doctrine, but methodology is different. The apostle Paul would have backslid if he was restricted in presenting the gospel as much as people are trying to restrict the presentation today.

[TCSQ]

[QUOTE=tv1a;574041]



If you are worried about kids going into seizures, why not use the power that God gave you and pray the prayer of faith for healing?


Does it get any dumber than this? Cause a seizure and then pray em out of it? I'm shrieking with laughter here! Why not serve em tuna fish poisoned with botulism after the service and then as they are going into toxic shock pray em out of that too? Why put people in harms way ? Does THAT make any sense to YOU?


Then you treat us to this groovy insight.......

It is stupid for anyone to change partners in the middle of the dance because the song changed. It is the same band, same salvational doctrine, but methodology is different.


Using tools that are KNOWN to produce altered states of consiousness? Hey why not just whip up a a batch of peyote brownies and let em all get high!
HALLUCINOGENICS FOR EVERYONE! PRAISE THE LORD!

The apostle Paul would have backslid if he was restricted in presenting the gospel as much as people are trying to restrict the presentation today.

I doubt it , I dont think he was that shallow. He tended more toward preaching with the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost anyway. Probably would have left the light show and smoke and mirrors to Simon the Magician and his ilk.

Enough foolishness for one night. I am going to get a pizza! Hold the SHROOMS!

[Michael Phelps]

Which admin did you want to put on ignore?

Bump for Tim Rutledge

[Michael Phelps]

[QUOTE=tv1a;574041]



If you are worried about kids going into seizures, why not use the power that God gave you and pray the prayer of faith for healing?


Does it get any dumber than this? Cause a seizure and then pray em out of it? I'm shrieking with laughter here! Why not serve em tuna fish poisoned with botulism after the service and then as they are going into toxic shock pray em out of that too? Why put people in harms way ? Does THAT make any sense to YOU?


Then you treat us to this groovy insight.......

It is stupid for anyone to change partners in the middle of the dance because the song changed. It is the same band, same salvational doctrine, but methodology is different.


Using tools that are KNOWN to produce altered states of consiousness? Hey why not just whip up a a batch of peyote brownies and let em all get high!
HALLUCINOGENICS FOR EVERYONE! PRAISE THE LORD!

The apostle Paul would have backslid if he was restricted in presenting the gospel as much as people are trying to restrict the presentation today.

I doubt it , I dont think he was that shallow. He tended more toward preaching with the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost anyway. Probably would have left the light show and smoke and mirrors to Simon the Magician and his ilk.

Enough foolishness for one night. I am going to get a pizza! Hold the SHROOMS!

TCSQ, are you familiar with using the "quote" feature? Your replies are confusing sometimes, because it's hard to distinguish your comments from others.

[Tim Rutledge]

Bump for Tim Rutledge

I'll just keep that to myself.

;)

[Michael Phelps]

I'll just keep that to myself.

;)

So, you just kind of throw that hand grenade out into the middle of the forum, but then decide to play a little game and keep the name of this perceived offender to yourself.

Nice.

[Tim Rutledge]

So, you just kind of throw that hand grenade out into the middle of the forum, but then decide to play a little game and keep the name of this perceived offender to yourself.

Nice.

Nice? Sarcasm? :bigbaby

[Michael Phelps]

Nice? Sarcasm? :bigbaby

You're a quick one!:tease

[Whole Hearted]

[QUOTE=TCSQ;573891][QUOTE=Tim Rutledge;573872]


Uh, just go up a few posts and read WholeHearted's comments about the UPC.

Trust me, it works both ways, I"m quite sure.

Now, I have no dog in this fight, because I'm neither UPC or WPF. However, I kind of thought this thread had turned into a "Smoke machines and lights vs. NO smoke machines and lights" thread?

I must have missed the turn it took into the UPC vs. WPF abyss.

Yes go up and look. I NEVER said anything about hating anyone much less the UPC. I am UPC and not WPF. I like the WPF and enjoy their meetings and may one day be apart of them, but not for now. I do not agree with many things that ae going on in the UPC and will not support these events, but that doesn't mean tht I hate anyone.

[Michael Phelps]

[QUOTE=Michael Phelps;573894][QUOTE=TCSQ;573891]

Yes go up and look. I NEVER said anything about hating anyone much less the UPC. I am UPC and not WPF. I like the WPF and enjoy their meetings and may one day be apart of them, but not for now. I do not agree with many things that ae going on in the UPC and will not support these events, but that doesn't mean tht I hate anyone.

Duly noted, WH. Hate is probably a strong word, but it's no secret that you think UPC youth camps are too worldly, etc. - by your own admission you send your kids to other camps.

So, let's say - strong dislike for UPC practices. Hate is a strong word, and I'll concede that point.

[Whole Hearted]

[QUOTE=Whole Hearted;574224][QUOTE=Michael Phelps;573894]

Duly noted, WH. Hate is probably a strong word, but it's no secret that you think UPC youth camps are too worldly, etc. - by your own admission you send your kids to other camps.

So, let's say - strong dislike for UPC practices. Hate is a strong word, and I'll concede that point.

Dislike is much more accurate, not people but things that are going on. But let it be know there are good people still in and we support their functions and event. We do not support those who are doing the smoke and mirrors stuff.

[Michael Phelps]

[QUOTE=Michael Phelps;574235][QUOTE=Whole Hearted;574224]

Dislike is much more accurate, not people but things that are going on. But let it be know there are good people still in and we support their functions and event. We do not support those who are doing the smoke and mirrors stuff.

Again, duly noted. Thanks for clarifying.

[RandyWayne]

I personally cannot stand fog machines and strobe lights myself during the course of a "normal" service. Granted, I think they may have their uses during specific drama-type events, but DO hate them during regular song services.

As a DJ I never used strobe lights and stopped using fog machines when they started setting off every single fire alarm.

[Sister Alvear]

Randy, that is my thoughts...for drama and special presentations they are ok. Now I would not want them in every service...would get old after while. I think for a play, a skit things like that are exciting for the young people.
Balance would be the key...I personally had rather see lights than politicans on a platform!

[Sister Alvear]

Please take no offense but I am of the opinion God and politics don´t mix...

[theoldpaths]

This whole premise of calling lights....fog...and other sundry items is almost laughable....

I have been in one of the church's of the leadership/pioneer of the WPF...they use the Stick Ministry...Deaf Praise and Drama...and video....with lights...Fog....and everything else.....just like the other churches....

I don't see you criticizing them????

The point is you are either echoing somebody's pulpit or just a complainer.... either of the two would probably fit....

I for one am glad they had a tremendous time in Tulsa.... that is great.....

I am also glad for churches who use unorthodox methods to win other young people to the Lord...and give their young people a chance to express themselves!!....

Some of you guys should preach overseas on the Islands and watch the Kids dance and worship with their whistles.... and come in the sanctuary... it is absolutely beautiful...but I know if you stayed any length of time they would come to know HOW undodly they are and buy a suit, put on a tie so they could fit in....

I see nothing wrong with worshipping God with whisltes.

Don't have to have a suit and tie to be saved or stay saved.

Me personally, I'm ok with cultural dress as long as it is modest and as long as there is a distinction b/n male and female apparel.

The word of God does not change for the world or culture - if the world or a culture wants to get saved and live for God, then THEY change for the word of God.

Who am I to tell the Philippino's that a barong (spelled right?) is an ungodly piece of apparel? I have a barong and have worn it to church here in north america.

However, obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves...

[Jeremy]

having the unique perspective of having been a hard core conservative youth minister, and now being 100% the opposite direction, I can honestly say my view on the showman ship of worship services has not changed one bit.

What is the effect you are going for with the lights and the effects? In my mind, it can only serve one of two purposes.

A: Entertainment value. The lights and the effects are merely there to look pretty and make things feel more "cool". Nothing insidious about wanting to make worship seem more palatable to young people, but this type of plan is inherently doomed to fail because you will never ever ever ever EVER match the entertainment value of what the world has to offer. Once they get a taste of the lights and concert effects of the world, why would they stick with the generic brand they find in the church?

B: Creating hype to simulate genuine moves of the Holy Ghost. This I have a major problem with in both principle and function. To invoke carnal emotion that can be found in any concerts going on around the country and pretend that it is a move of God is disgusting. I do believe that there are some who understand that it is a short cut to the emotional high that they are trying to reach for their conferences and meetings and use the effects to replicate the intense worship atmosphere one would usually expect to find in a traditional worship environment. What a disservice to the kids involved!


Some would argue that there is no difference between the lights and effects and quality music, but I would simply point out that music is a biblical form of worship and belongs in the churches as part of the process. Hype inducing production takes away from the the individual services and it takes away from the long term effect these services can have on the young people who attend them.

I understand why some people would not understand why people such as myself make such a big deal out o it, as it's just lights. I can only ask you to seek out the purpose behind the practice. is it really for spiritual edification, or is it a simple man made tool to manufacture a high emotion environment?

[Tim Rutledge]

[QUOTE=Jeremy;581319]having the unique perspective of having been a hard core conservative youth minister, and now being 100% the opposite direction, I can honestly say my view on the showman ship of worship services has not changed one bit.


Jeremy. A full 100% ??

[Jeremy]

Well, I guess I feel the same about lights. Lol. if 100% is biting heads off bats and drinking their blood, then no, but I have certainly changed a lot from where I was to where I am.

[Tim Rutledge]

Well, I guess I feel the same about lights. Lol. if 100% is biting heads off bats and drinking their blood, then no, but I have certainly changed a lot from where I was to where I am.

Really.. you've changed. :tease

Me too. I'm as sweet as sugar. :whistle

[Jack Shephard]

Well, I guess I feel the same about lights. Lol. if 100% is biting heads off bats and drinking their blood, then no, but I have certainly changed a lot from where I was to where I am.

Gotta love Ozzy Osbourne!

Nothing is wrong with lights, fog and affects. It is all for dramatic affect. Just like screaming ones head off when preaching or getting a box of shout detergent and preaching about "Shout it out!" just to get a response. To me it is all the same. Use it or don't, but don't try and push others down that down use it as if they are rank sinners or something. It is a sad day when something like lights and fog machines are dividing lines. Cause if ones argument is that bars have them, etc. then there is no reason why we need music cause bars have it, no carpet or wood flooring again bars have them. The best is don't have speakers and amp and musical equipment either--bars have those. LOL the lengths people go to call out others as sinners. What a joke!

[Tim Rutledge]

Gotta love Ozzy Osbourne!

Nothing is wrong with lights, fog and affects. It is all for dramatic affect. Just like screaming ones head off when preaching or getting a box of shout detergent and preaching about "Shout it out!" just to get a response. To me it is all the same. Use it or don't, but don't try and push others down that down use it as if they are rank sinners or something. It is a sad day when something like lights and fog machines are dividing lines. Cause if ones argument is that bars have them, etc. then there is no reason why we need music cause bars have it, no carpet or wood flooring again bars have them. The best is don't have speakers and amp and musical equipment either--bars have those. LOL the lengths people go to call out others as sinners. What a joke!

In all respect JT. Calling convictions a joke is not cool. But its your right. I think sometimes it depends on if you were ever in the world or not, as to whether you have, or develop certain convictions (feelings) on things. Flashing lights remind me of haunted houses and the village people (YMCA). A whole lot of people have strong convictions against a light show/fog in a Church service. Those convictions will be preached. I would not call someone who uses these methods "bound for hell". But it is a strong conviction and we will continue to teach and preach, against the appearance of a bar room.
God bless.

[Jeremy]

Gotta love Ozzy Osbourne!

Nothing is wrong with lights, fog and affects. It is all for dramatic affect. Just like screaming ones head off when preaching or getting a box of shout detergent and preaching about "Shout it out!" just to get a response. To me it is all the same. Use it or don't, but don't try and push others down that down use it as if they are rank sinners or something. It is a sad day when something like lights and fog machines are dividing lines. Cause if ones argument is that bars have them, etc. then there is no reason why we need music cause bars have it, no carpet or wood flooring again bars have them. The best is don't have speakers and amp and musical equipment either--bars have those. LOL the lengths people go to call out others as sinners. What a joke!

I actually addressed your very argument in the post you did not quote. The reason I see it as being wrong is because you are manufacturing hype. Your argument about using illustrations does not fit. I have been in history class where we split into two and had a paper ball fight to relate to civil war, I have been in math classes where you do small construction projects to show applicable use of a mathematical principle, and I have been in a science class where we shined a laser light on mirrors to display the properties of rays of light. Using visual or interactive lesson aids is not at all the same as the psychological manipulation of teenagers with lights and smoke. At least, not in my opinion. I doubt I could argue anyone who thinks it's cool into seeing my point of view, I just hope I can express my view in such a way to at least make it understandable.

It is not a fear of progression that makes them seem like a bad thing to people like me. It is a feeling of regression, and a sense of degradation. I simply don't feel like visual effects in worship are a step forward. I see it as an attempt to replicate something it can never match (that many came out of), and a weakening of the potential for the moving of the Spirit of God.

[RandyWayne]

In all respect JT. Calling convictions a joke is not cool. But its your right. I think sometimes it depends on if you were ever in the world or not, as to whether you have, or develop certain convictions (feelings) on things. Flashing lights remind me of haunted houses and the village people (YMCA). A whole lot of people have strong convictions against a light show/fog in a Church service. Those convictions will be preached. I would not call someone who uses these methods "bound for hell". But it is a strong conviction and we will continue to teach and preach, against the appearance of a bar room.
God bless.

I think the whole premise of not doing something because it is too much like something else is always a shaky one to which to develop a doctrine -a conviction perhaps, but not a "church rule". I know your talking specifically about convictions, but then you also mention is being preached, which thrusts it into the category of church rule.

Again, I do not like flashing lights. I think the argument that it is too much like the "world" (or haunted houses or the Village People) is a red herring which takes attention away from the REAL reason they should not be used: epilepsy. There are MANY people who will go into a seizure at the drop of a hat in the presence of any strobe light, and even lights that flash with ANY rhythm. And perhaps the 2nd biggest reason I have against them is that they are just plain annoying.

When I DJed, I did not use any lights that flashed, or spinning mirrored balls (I DID toy with a fog machine, but it set off too many fire alarms in dance halls). My service was called Tough of Class! and that is exact what I went for. Subdued lighting, high quality sound, shiny black suit and tie on myself, and no raunchy music (like "strokin" or "Don't want no short shrot....", "Closer" by Nine Inch Nails...... you get the idea).

Here is a picture of my set up at a ballroom event.
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w113/RandyWayneD/DJSetupSmall.jpg

[Tim Rutledge]

I think the whole premise of not doing something because it is too much like something else is always a shaky one to which to develop a doctrine -a conviction perhaps, but not a "church rule". I know your talking specifically about convictions, but then you also mention is being preached, which thrusts it into the category of church rule.

Again, I do not like flashing lights. I think the argument that it is too much like the "world" (or haunted houses or the Village People) is a red herring which takes attention away from the REAL reason they should not be used: epilepsy. There are MANY people who will go into a seizure at the drop of a hat in the presence of any strobe light, and even lights that flash with ANY rhythm. And perhaps the 2nd biggest reason I have against them is that they are just plain annoying.

When I DJed, I did not use any lights that flashed, or spinning mirrored balls (I DID toy with a fog machine, but it set off too many fire alarms in dance halls). My service was called Tough of Class! and that is exact what I went for. Subdued lighting, high quality sound, shiny black suit and tie on myself, and no raunchy music (like "strokin" or "Don't want no short shrot....", "Closer" by Nine Inch Nails...... you get the idea).

Here is a picture of my set up at a ballroom event.
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w113/RandyWayneD/DJSetupSmall.jpg

Nice set up.

[RandyWayne]

Nice set up.

Thanks.

As you can see my only lighting was the purple rope light surrounding the stage and two small black lights underneath the table.

(And the system sounded incredible!)

[TCSQ]

[QUOTE=RandyWayne;581555]I think the whole premise of not doing something because it is too much like something else is always a shaky one to which to develop a doctrine -a conviction perhaps, but not a "church rule". I know your talking specifically about convictions, but then you also mention is being preached, which thrusts it into the category of church rule.




***************************MY REPLY*************************

(and by the way, I used the quote thing, what am I doing wrong because it NEVER seems to make the boxed quote that I see the rest of you coming up with.) ANYWAY.....

You know Randy you are so right...and you are also kind of wrong.


I think its a shame that for Reasons of Biblical understanding that we by and large have not experienced living under the law of Moses at least for a season. It's a real eye opener to understanding the principles of the New Covenant. The Law was a shadow of things to come and not the actual object (s) itself.

But to scrap it as though it has no bearing on the New is ridiculous as the New is typified in the Old and a holistic view of the Word of God gives us a great advantage as opposed to just a one eyed vision ability (when you only see through one eye you lose something very important...DEPTH PERCEPTION)

There is a grossly foreign (to us) concept revealed in the Law that is so beautifully realized in the New Testament, and because most of us the overwhelmingly VAST majority of us have NEVER been exposed to this concept or even heard of it , it colours and distorts our understanding of the principle (s) at work in the New.



It is the concept of being KOSHER. Ask anyone what THAT means and they will tell you that it has something to do with hot dogs or pickles and that is pretty much the extent of most peoples thinking. Ask a few and they will say, oh that has to do with the dietary laws of the Jews ..they don't eat Pork"


But Randy that whole concept is so vital to us today, and it is going right over the head of I would say almost everybody in the New Testament Church of 2008.

That of course being because almost everybody in the New Testament Church of 2008 is of gentile background.


But the church was ordained to be a BODY of Jews and Gentiles baptized into the same body, bringing BOTH of their positive insights and experiences into a common shared insight into and experience with God. Where are our Jewish Apostolics of today? I would be willing to garauntee you that virtually all of us could count the Jewish Apostolics that WE know on our fingers!

The whole deal of keeping Kosher goes WAY beyond Not eating pork, catfish, or rabbit! Those were the SHADOW of things to come NOT the very thing itself! They really speak to something WAY past ***FOOD****!!!! (Thats why I hate to admit it but when you see these guys going on about the need to go avoid eating catfish and rabbit because it is not Kosher cracks me up, they are SO NOT GETTING GODS POINT! But God love em)

But to stay with MY thought here....The whole system of keeping "KOSHER" is amazing. Basically what Kosher means is that this is something within the perameters set by the word of God and acceptable in light of the word of GOD.

The OPPOSITE... what is usually translated as "UNCLEAN" in the Old Testament is a word TRAIF which means Torn or Ripped.

So you have Kosher...Clean Holy inside the boundaries of the word of God
and Traif ...Ripped, Torn , OUTSIDE the boundaries of the word of God.

And if it was just left there you would have the general Apostolic mind set in a nutshell. No Middle Ground on anything!

But there is a THIRD classification for so many things. In the law something can be NOT KOSHER and yet NOT TRAIF either! That third classification is called PAREVE. Neutral.... neither this OR that.

For instance in the law beef is Kosher, Pork is Traif , but a potato is NEITHER Kosher OR Traif it is just a potato, Pareve, neutral.

And as things even in the food community so to speak keep evolving, new foods discovered and developed it causes the Law Keeping community to keep having to take counsel together on these newly introduced things to determine IN LIGHT OF THE PRINCIPLES DELIVERED TO THEM FROM GOD..is this Kosher or is this Traif or is it PAREVE? Its not just rules made on whim or personal conviction, it goes way beyond that, it is the counsel of EXPERIENCED LEARNED MEN who counsel TOGETHER on these things and reach a judicial decision. The ability to adjudicate in the Apostolic Church is certainly there (The binding and loosing power of adjudication given to the diisciples by Jesus himself). It is simply not used or not used very well at best.

Now that brings us to the whole issue bantered back and forth about here. Does anyone seriously believe that the real issue is LIGHTS? I mean this is not about a debate raging over the pros and cons of conventional traditional light bulbs and the new neon lighting. This is TIED to a whole area of spiritual influence and atmosphere setting power that many EXPERIENCED men of GOD are detecting and whose voice is being marginalized to a large extent by those without that experience who want what they want! Hence the tantrum factor where you see charges of WITCHCRAFT being hurled around by those who dont like any thinking on the subject that differs from their own.

To kind of touch on YOUR comment let me run this by you.


I was minister for several years at a very large predominantly black Apostolic church. We had a serious SERIOUS problem with our young people. It had many many causes BUT the common denominator of THIS problem was THIS:

The two major gangs in the area The Bloods and the Crips had "Colours" The Bloods wore RED the Crips wore BLUE. It was how you marked what gang you gave allegiance to even though you may not actually have joined it.

The young people in the church wanting so hard to be COOL immediately began wearing the colours of the gang that they admired (or feared).

All of a sudden RED Jackets, sweaters, jogging suits and BLUE Jackets Sweaters and jogging suits started becoming the clothing of choice for virtually ALL of our young people.

Bishop was completely at a loss. It certainly was not the colours blue and red that troubled him but what he CORRECTLY saw as the spiritual force in back of them slowly insinuating itself into their lives through the simple wearing of COLOURS. Most of the kids were NOT involved in the gang life at all. (Yet , THAT came later) BUT they were attempting in their immature way to be RELEVANT in their peer group/ community and it was the WRONG kind of relevance.

Bishop after things really got out of hand finally stood up one sunday Morning and laid down the LAW.
" THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANY MORE OF THESE COLOURS! NOT IN CHURCH, NOT ON THE STREET! OUR YOUNG PEOPLE ARE ***NOT**** GOING TO BE WALKING AROUND LOOKING LIKE THE BLOODS AND THE CRIPS! NO MORE BLUE JACKETS NO MORE RED JACKETS, THAT'S IT AINT NO MORE COLOURS!"

Now of course even Bishop would have told you there was nothing morally right OR wrong with the colour blue or the colour red, but what it was tied to WAS DEADLY and he did NOT want that spirit slowly wafting in and getting ahold of the young people. Many laughed at him and did not heed his SAGE ADVICE based on the leading of the spirit of God and good old common sense! (' I LOVE BISHOP BUT HE'S OLD AND HE DONT *****UNDERSTAND!*****)

They paid for it dearly in the long run even members of his own immediate family who rebelled against that kind of "control" and ended up seeing their own children shot to death in broad daylight.

So to say that there is no ablity at various times to stand up and take an issue and define it in terms of the word of God is actually a duty we all must recognize. That is why in the MULTITUDE of counsel there is safety.

Any way this is evidently my newest book. It probably wont be read either . Oh well!

[Tim Rutledge]

[QUOTE=RandyWayne;581555]I think the whole premise of not doing something because it is too much like something else is always a shaky one to which to develop a doctrine -a conviction perhaps, but not a "church rule". I know your talking specifically about convictions, but then you also mention is being preached, which thrusts it into the category of church rule.




***************************MY REPLY*************************

(and by the way, I used the quote thing, what am I doing wrong because it NEVER seems to make the boxed quote that I see the rest of you coming up with.) ANYWAY.....

You know Randy you are so right...and you are also kind of wrong.


I think its a shame that for Reasons of Biblical understanding that we by and large have not experienced living under the law of Moses at least for a season. It's a real eye opener to understanding the principles of the New Covenant. The Law was a shadow of things to come and not the actual object (s) itself.

But to scrap it as though it has no bearing on the New is ridiculous as the New is typified in the Old and a holistic view of the Word of God gives us a great advantage as opposed to just a one eyed vision ability (when you only see through one eye you lose something very important...DEPTH PERCEPTION)

There is a grossly foreign (to us) concept revealed in the Law that is so beautifully realized in the New Testament, and because most of us the overwhelmingly VAST majority of us have NEVER been exposed to this concept or even heard of it , it colours and distorts our understanding of the principle (s) at work in the New.



It is the concept of being KOSHER. Ask anyone what THAT means and they will tell you that it has something to do with hot dogs or pickles and that is pretty much the extent of most peoples thinking. Ask a few and they will say, oh that has to do with the dietary laws of the Jews ..they don't eat Pork"


But Randy that whole concept is so vital to us today, and it is going right over the head of I would say almost everybody in the New Testament Church of 2008.

That of course being because almost everybody in the New Testament Church of 2008 is of gentile background.


But the church was ordained to be a BODY of Jews and Gentiles baptized into the same body, bringing BOTH of their positive insights and experiences into a common shared insight into and experience with God. Where are our Jewish Apostolics of today? I would be willing to garauntee you that virtually all of us could count the Jewish Apostolics that WE know on our fingers!

The whole deal of keeping Kosher goes WAY beyond Not eating pork, catfish, or rabbit! Those were the SHADOW of things to come NOT the very thing itself! They really speak to something WAY past ***FOOD****!!!! (Thats why I hate to admit it but when you see these guys going on about the need to go avoid eating catfish and rabbit because it is not Kosher cracks me up, they are SO NOT GETTING GODS POINT! But God love em)

But to stay with MY thought here....The whole system of keeping "KOSHER" is amazing. Basically what Kosher means is that this is something within the perameters set by the word of God and acceptable in light of the word of GOD.

The OPPOSITE... what is usually translated as "UNCLEAN" in the Old Testament is a word TRAIF which means Torn or Ripped.

So you have Kosher...Clean Holy inside the boundaries of the word of God
and Traif ...Ripped, Torn , OUTSIDE the boundaries of the word of God.

And if it was just left there you would have the general Apostolic mind set in a nutshell. No Middle Ground on anything!

But there is a THIRD classification for so many things. In the law something can be NOT KOSHER and yet NOT TRAIF either! That third classification is called PAREVE. Neutral.... neither this OR that.

For instance in the law beef is Kosher, Pork is Traif , but a potato is NEITHER Kosher OR Traif it is just a potato, Pareve, neutral.

And as things even in the food community so to speak keep evolving, new foods discovered and developed it causes the Law Keeping community to keep having to take counsel together on these newly introduced things to determine IN LIGHT OF THE PRINCIPLES DELIVERED TO THEM FROM GOD..is this Kosher or is this Traif or is it PAREVE? Its not just rules made on whim or personal conviction, it goes way beyond that, it is the counsel of EXPERIENCED LEARNED MEN who counsel TOGETHER on these things and reach a judicial decision. The ability to adjudicate in the Apostolic Church is certainly there (The binding and loosing power of adjudication given to the diisciples by Jesus himself). It is simply not used or not used very well at best.

Now that brings us to the whole issue bantered back and forth about here. Does anyone seriously believe that the real issue is LIGHTS? I mean this is not about a debate raging over the pros and cons of conventional traditional light bulbs and the new neon lighting. This is TIED to a whole area of spiritual influence and atmosphere setting power that many EXPERIENCED men of GOD are detecting and whose voice is being marginalized to a large extent by those without that experience who want what they want! Hence the tantrum factor where you see charges of WITCHCRAFT being hurled around by those who dont like any thinking on the subject that differs from their own.

To kind of touch on YOUR comment let me run this by you.


I was minister for several years at a very large predominantly black Apostolic church. We had a serious SERIOUS problem with our young people. It had many many causes BUT the common denominator of THIS problem was THIS:

The two major gangs in the area The Bloods and the Crips had "Colours" The Bloods wore RED the Crips wore BLUE. It was how you marked what gang you gave allegiance to even though you may not actually have joined it.

The young people in the church wanting so hard to be COOL immediately began wearing the colours of the gang that they admired (or feared).

All of a sudden RED Jackets, sweaters, jogging suits and BLUE Jackets Sweaters and jogging suits started becoming the clothing of choice for virtually ALL of our young people.

Bishop was completely at a loss. It certainly was not the colours blue and red that troubled him but what he CORRECTLY saw as the spiritual force in back of them slowly insinuating itself into their lives through the simple wearing of COLOURS. Most of the kids were NOT involved in the gang life at all. (Yet , THAT came later) BUT they were attempting in their immature way to be RELEVANT in their peer group/ community and it was the WRONG kind of relevance.

Bishop after things really got out of hand finally stood up one sunday Morning and laid down the LAW.
" THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANY MORE OF THESE COLOURS! NOT IN CHURCH, NOT ON THE STREET! OUR YOUNG PEOPLE ARE ***NOT**** GOING TO BE WALKING AROUND LOOKING LIKE THE BLOODS AND THE CRIPS! NO MORE BLUE JACKETS NO MORE RED JACKETS, THAT'S IT AINT NO MORE COLOURS!"

Now of course even Bishop would have told you there was nothing morally right OR wrong with the colour blue or the colour red, but what it was tied to WAS DEADLY and he did NOT want that spirit slowly wafting in and getting ahold of the young people. Many laughed at him and did not heed his SAGE ADVICE based on the leading of the spirit of God and good old common sense! (' I LOVE BISHOP BUT HE'S OLD AND HE DONT *****UNDERSTAND!*****)

They paid for it dearly in the long run even members of his own immediate family who rebelled against that kind of "control" and ended up seeing their own children shot to death in broad daylight.

So to say that there is no ablity at various times to stand up and take an issue and define it in terms of the word of God is actually a duty we all must recognize. That is why in the MULTITUDE of counsel there is safety.

Any way this is evidently my newest book. It probably wont be read either . Oh well!


Thank you TCSQ. Good post.

[RandyWayne]

I understand the point your making completely, and agree with it for the most part. For instance a pastor banning blue and red from his specific church because of the specific issues you mentioned is understandable (popular gang colors in the neighborhood) and relevant to that church in that situation.
Such would be the case to bring up the concept of flashing lights (which I *hate* by the way) and fog as they occur in a church which may be situated in a section of town heavily populated by bars and night clubs. Perhaps the leadership would decide that they need to take a specific stand against looking too much like all the other businesses which are on the same block.

But..... barring these sort of situations I still stand by my comment about making church policy based on something "looking too much like something else" is a VERY dangerous one and should not be made lightly, if at all. One problem with such rules is that they more often than not don't stop with only one step. Meaning, people being people more often than not keep adding to such rules: I won't do this because it is too much like this WHICH is too much like that! The concept of not doing something because it is too much like something else is a very shaky foundation which at best works for only one generation of "like" and even then in only specific situations like the one mentioned in your post about the colors blue and red.

Now.... What would happen if a church in an area of the country with little to no gang activity suddenly banned the colors red and blue because of what they read in your post? "If it is relevant for THAT pastor then surely it is relevant to ME!"?

[tv1a]

Legalism is witchcraft. How would one explain the strong terms Paul used in Galatians 3? Legalism is a spell. Paul builds a great case against subjective standards. Then hammers the point home when asking who has bewitched you. IF one doesn't believe legalism is witchcraft. Either they haven't taken studied it out, or they have friends whom they don't want to offend.

[TCSQ]

[QUOTE=RandyWayne;582587]I understand the point your making completely, and agree with it for the most part. For instance a pastor banning blue and red from his specific church because of the specific issues you mentioned is understandable (popular gang colors in the neighborhood) and relevant to that church in that situation.


*****************************************MY REPLY********************************************* **********

(See it did it again! What on earth am I doing wrong? I hit the quote deal, I bring it up, and then when I go to reply there is no boxed in quote so I have to make my own line of distinction, oh well bear with me)

Such would be the case to bring up the concept of flashing lights (which I *hate* by the way) and fog as they occur in a church which may be situated in a section of town heavily populated by bars and night clubs. Perhaps the leadership would decide that they need to take a specific stand against looking too much like all the other businesses which are on the same block.

Exactly! I think this is the real crux of the matter, Apostolics have like most denominations bought into the ORGANIZATION mentality that takes the judgement and decision making OUT of the hands of the local assembly and into the Organizational realm, thus robbing the local assemblies SHEPHERDS or Government of a final say in the matter. What the church in Cucamonga decides to do on this issue is their own free decision, wether or not to participate in that with the sheep I am responsible for is MINE. But when these things intrude into venues that are COMMONLY shared such as youth meetings and district meetings and national meetings, then this DOES become an issue as is evident by the growing number of pastors who refuse to allow the sheep that THEY must answer for to come under what they perceive to be an incrementally encroaching spiritually negative trend. They certainly are with in their right to do so and certainly within their responsibility to do so as well.

I agree with you about the basis for making spiritual decisions by the way. But it seems to me upon a great deal of reflection that the majority of members of the body don''t tend (even in James the apostles day) to come from the upper economic classes privileged to have extensive educations and vocabularies that allow them to express themselves as eloquently as they might. So the expressions of resistance take on a very common (and I dont mean that insultingly its just the reality) tone and can be expressed as basically NO WAY or "We Aint gonna have none of that round here!" rather than a lengthy and well delivered reasoning why thus and such is contrary to the way that the Lord is bringing that assembly.

[TCSQ]

[QUOTE=RandyWayne;582587]

But..... barring these sort of situations I still stand by my comment about making church policy based on something "looking too much like something else" is a VERY dangerous one and should not be made lightly, if at all. One problem with such rules is that they more often than not don't stop with only one step. Meaning, people being people more often than not keep adding to such rules:


************************I AGREE**********************



RIGHT ON THE HEAD MAN! RIGHT ON THE HEAD!!!!! I think that you are so close to something there Brother. One of the reasons for this is because the last days church has NOT attempted (by and large) to lose the gentile I'M THE KING LET IT RING!" type of church government.

What we need is a further restoration of the APOSTOLIC pattern of church government AND ministry the TWO five Fold Ministries that are virtually NOT EXISTENT in our day, (either one!) just that nature of the uncircumsized gentile "who's in charge and who gets the money?" thinking.

A revelation of the EKKLESIA where EVERY CITIZEN HAS A VOICE.

We need that so badly , I am talking to several other preachers that are often mentioned on this and other forums, and there is an understanding of just exactly HOW MUCH MORE WE HAVE TO GROW in things that is most encouraging! Not just disparaging everything 'cause it aint the way we been a doin it fer the last hunderd yars!" and not just jumping on every ridiculous boat that comes sailing by in an attempt to be "relevant" but an almost crushing in magnitude insight and desire to go OVER Jordan INTO the promised land and get the heck out of this wilderness that we have been circling around in for such a long LONG time!


That is why when you hear about churches wanting to be ""Relevant" at first your heart leaps ! And then you check it out and such a let down! It has nothing to do with stepping UP into MORE of GOD or GODLINESS but rather a grunge look, or a black and white yeah man type look, or a mosh pit type atmosphere and your GUT reaction is ...THESE GUYS ARE TAKING US IN THE *****OTHER**** DIRECTION!!!!!!!!!!!

Its a time of flux and change and some of it is wonderful some of it is dreadful, and it is a time that calls for great wisdom and the kind that comes from above and is of GOD rather than the kind that is sensual and of MAN.



*************************Then You Sagely Add***********


I won't do this because it is too much like this WHICH is too much like that! The concept of not doing something because it is too much like something else is a very shaky foundation which at best works for only one generation of "like" and even then in only specific situations like the one mentioned in your post about the colors blue and red.


**********************************I AGREE****************

Precisely! Which is why you NEED a church that is governed the BIBLE way, where there is a constantly growing and FLEXIBLE government of Bishops Elders Deacons Administrations and Helps, governing the assembly rather than the current parasitical denominational system of offices and positions and politicking! You need that (The LOCAL church government) as well as the counsel of the CITIZENS of that local ekklesia. When you dont allow the citizens a voice then you reduce them from citizens to subjects and start dictating TO them and you inadvertently change your self from a SERVANT of the ekklesia to holding LORDSHIP over it. You also change them from being a company of sons of God to serfs on your land.



***********YOU CONCLUDE WISELY***************************
Now.... What would happen if a church in an area of the country with little to no gang activity suddenly banned the colors red and blue because of what they read in your post? "If it is relevant for THAT pastor then surely it is relevant to ME!"?



**************************I Concur*********************

It would be a ridiculous position to take wouldn't it, unless of course there was a perceived THREAT to that OPENING a door that that ministry does not WANT opened.

I do know that one of the more poetic types in the Old testament about the role of the ministry is that of "Watchman On the Wall."

And the watchman on the wall has a PERSPECTIVE that others simply dont!

(I live in a city near the Alps. It is a major city that goes back to the days of the Caesars. There is a tower in our city that is a tower not for defense, but built to give PERSPECTIVE of another tower that is over one hundred miles away in the Alps. The people on the ground or out in their fields cant see that tower in the alps to do so you have to climb to the top of the tower in our city. The purpose of those two towers is this. The Alps form a natural barrierr to invading armies. And yet that barrier has been breached before.

SOOOOOO They have these two towers, one to signal to the other in case an invading army is on the way, giving the city I live in time to warn the citizenry, gather them in and bar the gates to keep the enemy at bay.

Sometimes I see the things like YOU mention about the two churches and different natures of the community they serve, and yet can not forget that as a WATCHMAN on the wall I must err on the side of caution, and MUST watch the signals from other assemblies and take into geunine consideration their warnings and signals that an invading army is on the way as well as positions.


I may choose to regard it and then say, well we will keep on eye on it (kind of like a distantly developing hurricane) but as for right now we will not close the gates. I may decide they are over reacting and kind of put things on a back burner in that area. I may decide they are nuts and choose to just plain disregard it.


But again I am working to build an assembly where the APOSTOLIC form of church government is evolving and so we make such decisions after praying, studying the matter and then bringing it to the citizens NOT in a service, not handing them a fete accompli from the pulpit, but holding a meeting of the citizenry where the men and women who feel to give their input are allowed to voice their concerns and opinions , and then just kind of hammer it out and invite the wisdom of God to manifest it self like it did in the ekklesia meetings in the Book of Acts.


That so much of this is about things affecting the most IMPRESSIONABLE segment of Gods church, its YOUNG is rather enlightening to me as to what spirit is really in back of a lot of this. The devil wants our kids and it is also interesting how that voices who are NOT responsible for their salvation seem to really resent the spiritual parenting that many ministers of God desire to give the young people that they have watched grow in God in their assemblies for many many years.

Again, who cares about fog and lights, they certainly would be effective in some venues and not in others, they are merely a symptom of a much greater issue, the real issue I feel is the neutered feeling that a lot of men of God are feeling and are unable to articulate but is kind of like this...

Imagine that YOU trust me to watch YOUR kids for the evening why you and your wife go out for dinner and a Play. OR even better, the two of you go away for the weekend and leave me to watch your kids.

You tell me before you go that you dont want your kids drinking soft drinks and eating junk food. You tell me that you and your wife feel VERY strongly about this saying those kids have NEVER eaten that garbage and we dont want them to while we are gone.

I hear that, but once the door slams I say "Oh what a fuddy duddy! Those kids only are young once! He's living in a fantasy if he thinks those kids are going to be hurt because they are allowed to eat pizza and drink coke like OTHER kids. Well I AM IN CHARGE NOW and I am going to completely flaunt his concerns and not only am I going to LET them eat whatever they want but I AM GOING TO TAKE THEM OUT TO MACDONALDS MYSELF!!!!!"

Imagine how you would feel when you return, find out what has happened and then find your self DISCUSSED ON A INTERNET FORUM WITH PEOPLE THINKING THAT YOU REPRESENT A DICTATORIAL FORM OF PARENTING AND IT BORDERS ON WITCHCRAFT!

Can you see how frustrated , enraged and powerless you might feel in the face of a barrage of posts against your right as a parent to set the boundaries for YOUR children wether they are in your immediate care or not.

I think that is much of what is in back of this , that feeling of being marginalized and emascualted for want of a better word , on the organizational level, with men who are NOT responsible to pastor those kids konwingly (!) exposing them to things and spirits that they KNOW many pastors who ARE responsible for them are NOT comfortable with.

I would say it is THAT arrogance that is the REAL cause of much of this whole back and forth, and again reflects the need for local assemblies to dramatically rethink their government and what they are part of on a national/ international level.


Well there ya go

[Jeremy]

They paid for it dearly in the long run even members of his own immediate family who rebelled against that kind of "control" and ended up seeing their own children shot to death in broad daylight.

they did not pay for their rebellion against his control, they paid because of the fact they chose to wear gang colors in an area that was infested with two of the most violent street gangs in America. That's the bottom line.

Something else to consider is this. They may have even paid for the totalitarian preaching style of your Bishop. How much more sense would it have made for him to simply relate news articles about innocent victims becoming the targets of gang violence because of the something as trivial as the color of a jacket or hat. Appealing to their logic instead of attempting to overrun their natural sense of free will was not really all that wise.

This is one of my big problems with the way Apostolic ministry works. We believe in a great God who designed us in his image, and from the very beginning of man offered and encouraged free will. This is one of the reasons we can have such a deep relationship with him, because we are not forced to serve him, but simply given the chance to respond to that small still voice, that knock at our hearts door. How many times have I heard it said God is a gentleman and does not force anything on us? More fingers and toes than I have, that's for sure.

Yet we see a micro managing ministry that lays out every detail of what a Christians life should be from what they can wear, how they can wear what they wear, what colors what they wear can be, the precise length of a mans hair, where people can go on dates, the exact way a date should go (double, one shaporone, un-even males and females, where they can happen, how late they can go, how often they should occur, how long one should wait from one relationship to the next, etc.), the exact guidelines for church appearance, (open toed shoes, pantie hoes, hair up, hair down, mens hair parted, no colored shirts, no sport coats, no jeans, must wear a tie,) no make up, no jewelry, no sports, no this no that blah blah blah.

I could literally go on writing double what I wrote, but you get the drift. These things being made mandatory ordinances of the church completely defy both the free will God gave us to serve him, AND the function of the Holy Ghost. You foster and welcome an environment for rebellion with a "because I said so" dogmatic style of leadership. Clearly the problem was the ADMIRATION OF THE GANGS! NOT the manner in which it manifested itself. It seems so very typical for our churches to address the outward manifestation of problems of the heart as if that is the solution.

Sorry that this seemed a bit...negative towards your Bishop, I don't mean it to be. I am just trying to objectively analyze the situation. I assure you no personal offense was intended. i know sometimes criticism can seem like attack when it comes to someones man of god, so I wanted to clarify that tearing down the man is not my intention, just a criticism the general way in which our ministry deals with issues like this.

And uhhhm. Yeah. Lights...they're still no good.

[TCSQ]

[QUOTE=Jeremy;583106]
They paid for it dearly in the long run even members of his own immediate family who rebelled against that kind of "control" and ended up seeing their own children shot to death in broad daylight.

they did not pay for their rebellion against his control, they paid because of the fact they chose to wear gang colors in an area that was infested with two of the most violent street gangs in America. That's the bottom line.


****************I reply*******************************

I wish we were talking because sometimes I dont convey things very well over the net. I put "Control" in quotes because that was the RESPONSE or the way that preaching was viewed by some of the parents who rejected Bishops absolutely Biblical responsiblitly to set some lines for the sheep he was charged with feeding and KEEPING.


You are absolutely right they paid with their lives because of their own foolish choices but not only that, they MADE that choice directly in the face of a man who had pastored them, their parents and their GRANDPARENTS for over forty years, had loved them, prayed for them, wept over them, preached to them, baptized them , prayed them through to the life in Jesus Christ, taught them, agonized for them, rejoiced with them, and had basically invested his entire life in shepherding them.

I was merely establishing that the FOOLISHNESS of so cavalierly rejecting his ministerial authority as well as the EXCUSELESS REBELLION of the parents who 1.) Heard Bishops charge...2.) Grumbled about it and 3.) Said "Honey don't you worry, Bishop don't mean it, you do what you want to do, he's old, he don't understand, he don't have the right to tell you how to live your life..." was a very large part of why they found themselves OUTSIDE the ark of safety and attending funerals instead of graduations. and weddings ......


**************You Continue***************************

Something else to consider is this. They may have even paid for the totalitarian preaching style of your Bishop.

***************I reply******************************

I am laughing here, not at YOU but, OH BOY you should have been there! Totalitarian was about as far away from the way it was as could POSSIBLY be! It was incredible! Absolutely incredible.The phrase "In one ear and out the other" doesnt even BEGIN to describe it!



********************YOU CONTINUE******************
How much more sense would it have made for him to simply relate news articles about innocent victims becoming the targets of gang violence because of the something as trivial as the color of a jacket or hat. Appealing to their logic instead of attempting to overrun their natural sense of free will was not really all that wise.


**********************I REPLY***************************

You are not from the inner city are you? What do YOU think would speak louder to you ...an article in a newspaper about someone who was killed because they were wearing the "Wrong colours" OR seeing them gunned down in cold blood right on your front doorstep!? You would THINK that THAT would inform their decisions but INCREDIBLY ENOUGH NOT SO!

********************YOU CONTINUE**********************

This is one of my big problems with the way Apostolic ministry works. We believe in a great God who designed us in his image, and from the very beginning of man offered and encouraged free will. This is one of the reasons we can have such a deep relationship with him, because we are not forced to serve him, but simply given the chance to respond to that small still voice, that knock at our hearts door. How many times have I heard it said God is a gentleman and does not force anything on us? More fingers and toes than I have, that's for sure.

Yet we see a micro managing ministry that lays out every detail of what a Christians life should be from what they can wear, how they can wear what they wear, what colors what they wear can be, the precise length of a mans hair, where people can go on dates, the exact way a date should go (double, one shaporone, un-even males and females, where they can happen, how late they can go, how often they should occur, how long one should wait from one relationship to the next, etc.), the exact guidelines for church appearance, (open toed shoes, pantie hoes, hair up, hair down, mens hair parted, no colored shirts, no sport coats, no jeans, must wear a tie,) no make up, no jewelry, no sports, no this no that blah blah blah.

I could literally go on writing double what I wrote, but you get the drift. These things being made mandatory ordinances of the church completely defy both the free will God gave us to serve him, AND the function of the Holy Ghost. You foster and welcome an environment for rebellion with a "because I said so" dogmatic style of leadership.



**********HOW CAN I ARGUE WITH THAT????********************


Read my other post to Randy. I am so much in agreement with you about that BUT here is the dilemna we face, and it is a HORRIBLY FRUSTRATING dilemna at that!

When the people of God came OUT of Egypt, they were intended to continue going right INTO the place that God wanted to bring them.

BUT they had been shaped in Egypt to be SLAVES, and the overwhelming vast majority of those people NEVER LOST THAT MINDSET. Sad but true, they simply WERE NOT ABLE TO ENTER INTO THE LAND OF PROMISE.
And so They wandered around and around and around and around and around decade after decade after decade after decade.

Think how frustrating that must have been to the few with the Promised Land mindset of FREE MEN who were compelled to wander aimlessly with them year after year after...well you know.

But God loved those people, they were HIS people slave mentality and all!

So he patiently did not abandon them or overthrow them in the wilderness, but led them and fed them and clothed them for all those decades until they DIED OUT in the wilderness and a NEW GENERATION who had never been slaves in Egypt came forth and THEY went IN to the land their parents SHOULD have had.

So much of what we have now is so dear to God people wise, but the sad reality is they dont always think so good! A great many of them still see themselves as slaves, trying desperately to earn their masters love by cranking out as many bricks and works as they can. They are STILL slaves only now instead of being slaves to Pharaoh they see themselves as slaves with a new slave driver, God himself. Their whole relationship with God can often be seen as that of a slave to his master.

I long to see the day that the realization rises upon the heart of the MAJORITY of Gods people that NOW they are the SONS of God! And start to walk in that maturity and base their decisions on that and the word rather than having to have some school master of a tyrant standing over them with the cane to beat them into submission. You are so so so so so so right!

But did you ever read "The Voyage Of the Dawn Treader" by C.S. Lewis?
Do you remember the Monopods and how they were so foolish. Yet the man who had charge over them ruled them, but the way they required to BE ruled.
Like countries get the kind of leadership THEY deserve so congregations get the kind of leadership they deserve.

Just in closing this deal, every time Bishop would get up there and be preaching his heart out, and they would be yelling "Amen Bishop!!!"
I would sit there biting the inside of my mouth because **I*** knew (as did Bishop) its in one ear and out the other and they gonna go right out and do exactly as they please when its all said and done!

****************you continue**************************
Clearly the problem was the ADMIRATION OF THE GANGS! NOT the manner in which it manifested itself. It seems so very typical for our churches to address the outward manifestation of problems of the heart as if that is the solution.


***I INTERJECT*****

I agree but the complexities of the whole situation make it a little more intricate than that but you are basically right

[Jeremy]

I wish we were talking because sometimes I dont convey things very well over the net.

I can relate, hence the long clarification at the end of my first post.




You are absolutely right they paid with their lives because of their own foolish choices but not only that, they MADE that choice directly in the face of a man who had pastored them, their parents and their GRANDPARENTS for over forty years, had loved them, prayed for them, wept over them, preached to them, baptized them , prayed them through to the life in Jesus Christ, taught them, agonized for them, rejoiced with them, and had basically invested his entire life in shepherding them.

God has so much more invested in us, yet he still has never tried to force anything on us.



I am laughing here, not at YOU but, OH BOY you should have been there! Totalitarian was about as far away from the way it was as could POSSIBLY be!

I was basing it off of

"THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANY MORE OF THESE COLOURS! NOT IN CHURCH, NOT ON THE STREET! OUR YOUNG PEOPLE ARE ***NOT**** GOING TO BE WALKING AROUND LOOKING LIKE THE BLOODS AND THE CRIPS! NO MORE BLUE JACKETS NO MORE RED JACKETS, THAT'S IT AINT NO MORE COLOURS!"

That does not leave to much room for choice does it? maybe totalitarian may not be exactly the right term, but it is total control, which was the point I was making.




You are not from the inner city are you? What do YOU think would speak louder to you ...an article in a newspaper about someone who was killed because they were wearing the "Wrong colours" OR seeing them gunned down in cold blood right on your front doorstep!? You would THINK that THAT would inform their decisions but INCREDIBLY ENOUGH NOT SO!

I agree. if they saw it happen, and still continued on, neither method is likely to be effective, but if you are going to spend the time trying to appeal to them, logical common sense talks will get much farther than "because I said so" lectures. You have to realize that they are intentionally making bad choices in light of overwhelming evidence that it is dangerous. Yelling at kids who are already clearly bucking society and trying to be counter culture seems like the absolute worst way to handle them.




Like countries get the kind of leadership THEY deserve so congregations get the kind of leadership they deserve.

Are you suggesting that people who have been downtrodden longer than this country has existed and suffer under tyrannical, oppressive and racist regimes deserve it? Do abused children deserve it? Abused children? I know you are not really saying this, but your parallel is horrible. It is the responsibility of a conscientious church leader to teach and guide not to rule and dominate.

The power of the Pulpit can often be used as a shortcut, but when people start going through real issues of faith, rebellion, questioning, or doubt, that short cut flies out the window, and the attempted use of some ultimate authority clause is only going to be met with contempt.

In all honesty, it sounds like these kids knew full well what they were doing and chose to continue on in that manner anyway. I highly doubt anything could have made them quit.

Glad to know we agree on the overall principle of the matter though, and thanks for the interesting conversation without getting offended or making it personal. I hope that at this point some people in your local ministry have reached out to the community to learn some counseling methods for kids who are romanticized by the gang life.

I don't think it would be at all inappropriate to get these kids help outside of the church even. There are people who dedicate their lives to understanding the appeal and draw of gangs to kids, and may be able to do a good job of pulling them out, especially if they are not where they need to be spiritually and this subject to the power of the influence of the Spirit.

Take care friend. Sounds like you have a great community to evangelize and some kids who very much need to hear that there is a real Jesus who loves and cares for them.