Change After Water Baptism?

[theoldpaths]

When I was water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins, in obedience to Acts 2:38, for the rest of that night I felt good on the inside, clean, light, and almost like a was a little tipsy; and I give God all of the glory for that. I did not have the Holy Ghost at that time but I had faith and had repented of my sins. I did get the Holy Ghost a few months later though.

In my born again walk though, I have come across some who were baptized the same way but in a different church, but did not feel anything different at all after they were baptized.

I've also read of some who were baptized and didn't feel anything different who heard about others who had and to make a long story short, found an apostolic minister who had re-baptized people who had NOT felt anything different and afterwards they did feel different.

So I thought I would ask apostolics in here if they felt anything different at all after they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins?

[mizpeh]

Yes, I felt the same things you did, clean on the INSIDE. I also felt intoxicated as I walked from the place I was baptized. While under the water I felt a peace, so much so that I didn't want to come up out of the water! I was probably under the water longer than most because I was baptized in a bathtub and they wanted to make sure I was totally under (some of my clothing had air pockets which they pushed out to make sure I was under, LOL) And just like you I had believed and repented but hadn't yet recieved the Holy Spirit. And probably not like you, I was baptized in Jesus name and the titles by a Baptist minister. :)

[OneAccord]

Absolutely- its hard to describe, but, when I was baptized in Jesus Name, I felt like an entirely different person came up out of that water. I felt completely scrubbed of everything that isn't like God.

[mizpeh]

Oh, I forgot, after I was baptized the urge to smoke a cigarette was gone.

[theoldpaths]

Yes, I felt the same things you did, clean on the INSIDE. I also felt intoxicated as I walked from the place I was baptized. While under the water I felt a peace, so much so that I didn't want to come up out of the water! I was probably under the water longer than most because I was baptized in a bathtub and they wanted to make sure I was totally under (some of my clothing had air pockets which they pushed out to make sure I was under, LOL) And just like you I had believed and repented but hadn't yet recieved the Holy Spirit. And probably not like you, I was baptized in Jesus name and the titles by a Baptist minister. :)

Interesting indeed.

Are you still baptist?

Any particular reason for mixing the original apostolic method of baptism with the Catholic one? Are you now in favor of mixing the original apostolic method with the Catholic one?

To respond to your "probably not like me", when I was in false doctrine in a charismatic full-gospel church, I was baptized only in the titles, which incidentally are not names. However, when God heard and answered my prayers as to what church to go to when I moved, he lead me to apostolic truth where I was only baptized in the original apostolic method of in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins.

[theoldpaths]

Absolutely- its hard to describe, but, when I was baptized in Jesus Name, I felt like an entirely different person came up out of that water. I felt completely scrubbed of everything that isn't like God.

Praise the Lord - God is good!

[mizpeh]

Interesting indeed.

Are you still baptist?

Any particular reason for mixing the original apostolic method of baptism with the Catholic one? Are you now in favor of mixing the original apostolic method with the Catholic one?

To respond to your "probably not like me", when I was in false doctrine in a charismatic full-gospel church, I was baptized only in the titles, which incidentally are not names. However, when God heard and answered my prayers as to what church to go to when I moved, he lead me to apostolic truth where I was only baptized in the original apostolic method of in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins.

I was never a baptist.

No, I'm not in favor of baptizing in the titles. The minister said he would baptize me in Jesus name and once in the water he proceeded to baptize me in the titles. I stopped him to be sure he would speak the name of the Lord over me, which he eventually did, but I called on Jesus in my heart the whole time saying "Jesus, you baptize me".

I came to Christ a few days after arriving in England and didn't find a OP church for about a year.

[Hoovie]

I can't say I "felt" different - other than being wet. I did know I was obeying... and that was good mental comfort I guess.

[Sherri]

I can't say I "felt" different - other than being wet. I did know I was obeying... and that was good mental comfort I guess.Same here......I was seven and don't remember a whole lot except that I was freezing and that I was disappointed that I didn't get the Holy Ghost in the water. But I did feel good about doing the right thing.

[theoldpaths]

I wonder why some felt differently and others have not?

In my researching for spiritual stuff, I came across this a while back. Perhaps some may find this interesting...

http://jesus-messiah.com/html/rebaptisms.html

[RandyWayne]

I can't say I "felt" different - other than being wet. I did know I was obeying... and that was good mental comfort I guess.

I had received the holy ghost a few weeks prior and THAT is when I noticed a huge change in my life. I felt a strong conviction and outright need to be baptized, but did not feel anything near the same way. In fact, the thing I remember most was how cold the water was!

[Hoovie]

I would have to say when I sincerely repented, and asked forgiveness of my sins was when I knew assuredly that Jesus came into my heart and I was born from above.

[Sherri]

I would have to say when I sincerely repented, and asked forgiveness of my sins was when I knew assuredly that Jesus came into my heart and I was born from above.
(You're very brave to post this.)
:coffee2

[CC1]

When I was water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins, in obedience to Acts 2:38, for the rest of that night I felt good on the inside, clean, light, and almost like a was a little tipsy; and I give God all of the glory for that. I did not have the Holy Ghost at that time but I had faith and had repented of my sins. I did get the Holy Ghost a few months later though.

In my born again walk though, I have come across some who were baptized the same way but in a different church, but did not feel anything different at all after they were baptized.

I've also read of some who were baptized and didn't feel anything different who heard about others who had and to make a long story short, found an apostolic minister who had re-baptized people who had NOT felt anything different and afterwards they did feel different.

So I thought I would ask apostolics in here if they felt anything different at all after they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins?

Good thread. I think you will find different answers from different folks. How one reacts may have a lot to do with their frame of mind at the time of baptism, their personality, etc.

I think anytime someone is batpized it is a momentous event. I get emotional and teary eyed when total strangers are baptized because of what it symbolizes.

When we take that very physical step to show our allegience to the Lord Jesus Christ by being buried with him in the waters of baptism I think it is something to rejoice and be emotional about.

However that emotion is subject to the personality, etc of the person invovled. For some it may be more of an intellectual, analyical step. They are confident in what they are doing by being baptized as it is following scripture but don't feel any supernatural tingles while doing it.

Others may have more of an emotional personality or may be making such a dramatic shift from an old life of reveling in sin to one identified with Christ that it is a dramatic time.

[drummerboy_dave]

I was baptised in Jesus' name twice. I was very young the first time and never recieved the Holy Ghost. After a few years, I'd still not been filled with the H.G. Someone suggested that I be baptised again. Perhaps I'd get the H.G. in the water! Well I didn't. Recieving the Holy Ghost was something I struggled with for several years. I left the church when I was a teen-ager to be cool and smoke dope.

In my twenties, thankfully, God drew me back! Several weeks went by and there I was in the alter again seeking the Holy Ghost, but God didn't fill me yet. Doubt came my way. I didn't know what to do!

The day I recieved the Holy Ghost is just like you described in the opener. I was in the clouds! I remember hearing my pastor tell me that I was making it much harder than it should be and when I finally released my entire self to God I remember jumping and shouting and speaking in tongues for I don't know how long. It was indescribable!

[Sam]

I would have to say when I sincerely repented, and asked forgiveness of my sins was when I knew assuredly that Jesus came into my heart and I was born from above.

I felt a lot of emotions after asking Jesus Christ into my heart, not just then, but over the years. I was later baptized using the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost wording in a lake. I did not consider myself any more saved after the baptism than I was before the baptism. A few months later I was baptized in Jesus' Name. I did not consider myself any more saved after that baptism than I was before the baptism. Water baptism does not save, it does not cleanse, it is the answer/response of a clear conscience with God. The old person that we once were is dead and we now have new life (Jesus --the Holy Spirit--- within) so we publicly display the burial of that "old man" in a watery grave and we publicly display the new resurrection life of the "new man" by coming up out of that watery grave.

[LUKE2447]

I felt a lot of emotions after asking Jesus Christ into my heart, not just then, but over the years. I was later baptized using the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost wording in a lake. I did not consider myself any more saved after the baptism than I was before the baptism. A few months later I was baptized in Jesus' Name. I did not consider myself any more saved after that baptism than I was before the baptism. Water baptism does not save, it does not cleanse, it is the answer/response of a clear conscience with God. The old person that we once were is dead and we now have new life (Jesus --the Holy Spirit--- within) so we publicly display the burial of that "old man" in a watery grave and we publicly display the new resurrection life of the "new man" by coming up out of that watery grave.


This is such a ridiculous theological twist and denial on one scripture as one could ever see! Sam your a nice guy and all but seriously 1+1=3 for you!

Baptism doth now save us!

Sam: no it doesn't

The answer Sam, of a good conscience is so that you can offer your sacrifice in good conscience due to your response to his Word.

Jesus clearly talked about one cannot partake in sacrifice until one is consciously responded wholeheartedly to God's desire and view of what one should do before sacrifice. You cannot offer yourself unless in whole. To turn to God in baptism(sacrifice) it must be with complete and with total turning.

Reconcile in Matt 5:24

1) to change
2) to change the mind of anyone, to reconcile
3) to be reconciled, to renew friendship with one

Which is repent! To turn or change! Unless one is changed totaly in the direction and comes with proper intent it means nothing! Repentance and Baptism are clearly seen in the following verse when one understands baptism is the place of sacrifice and you are uniting yourself with his sacrifice thus your gift is yourself.

Mat 5:23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

You cannot be baptized and united in sacrifice UNTIL you have turned(repented). When you turn toward the alter and Christ's sacrifice in baptism and away from the world and your flesh you have responded then in good conscience. A response of good conscience does not mean you are saved yet but brought to the alter with proper wholehearted appeal. Repenting is always seen as a proper response to God. Repentance though is not UNITING yourself with Christ's sacrifice/blood/atonement. Romans 6 is clear that we are united with him and his death/sacrifice in baptism! Thus the basic meaning of the scripture. One should look and see if anything is holding him back from true repentance before one can obtain sacrifice/atonement with Christ. Repentance only brings your to the sacrifice it is not in itself THE sacrifice. It brings your face to face with him but you still have to be united with him and his work in baptism.

Should one feel good about repenting? Yes! Should one feel good in baptism? Yes! Should one feel good about receiving the HS? Yes! As they ALL are proper responses to God and his response to you.

Repentance and Baptism are clearly a complete motion! Turn(repent) and be united/converted(baptized)! Acts 2:38


The old person that we once were is dead and we now have new life

ONe does die in repentance it does not mean you have been united with HIS DEATH/SACRIFICE/BLOOD YET! Where is that Baptism Romans 6! When one turns(repents) it is turning to baptism(atonement of Christ)

[mizpeh]

I think God gives us all different experiences for different reasons. I don't remember feeling anything special when I first spoke in tongues except that I spoke in tongues which was unexpected at the time. The language just flowed out of me with no effort or forethought of my own self.

[Jack Shephard]

For me I felt different after I accepted Jesus in my life. I didn't feel all that different after baptizm cause I had already accepted him. After receiving the HG I felt a little bolder or totally complete, like it was easier to witness about God and His saving grace. To me though I felt the biggest change after I repented and accepted Jesus into my life. The way I felt was confirmed when I read Acts. In Acts where it says "you shall be witnesses" and as we know tongues are a sign for the unbeliever made the confirmation in my life that the change was actually real or the change I felt was a real change.

[Blubayou]

I have to say that getting baptised was a very physical experience for me. I felt clean and renewed upon being baptised. Of course, I was baptized the same night I repented. I did not get the HG for about a month later. I remember feeling a profound sense of peace when I received the HG. I only spoke a few words in tongues when I first received the HG. Several months later, I prayed in my room to speak in tongues in a quiet atmosphere- to prove to myself that it was not just an emotional experience. A couple of weeks later as I knelt by my bed, I began to speak in tounges.

[Rhoni]

When I was water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins, in obedience to Acts 2:38, for the rest of that night I felt good on the inside, clean, light, and almost like a was a little tipsy; and I give God all of the glory for that. I did not have the Holy Ghost at that time but I had faith and had repented of my sins. I did get the Holy Ghost a few months later though.

In my born again walk though, I have come across some who were baptized the same way but in a different church, but did not feel anything different at all after they were baptized.

I've also read of some who were baptized and didn't feel anything different who heard about others who had and to make a long story short, found an apostolic minister who had re-baptized people who had NOT felt anything different and afterwards they did feel different.

So I thought I would ask apostolics in here if they felt anything different at all after they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins?

I think the change comes in your heart and mind before baptism. When you truly believe...that begins the process of change and baptism is just the evidence of the inward change.

Blessings, Rhoni

[LadyRev]

http://jesus-messiah.com/html/rebaptisms.html

Posting this link explains alot.

[dizzyde]

Posting this link explains alot.

Exactly! I stopped reading as soon as I saw the author. :whistle

[Brad Murphy]

When I was baptized (at around 10 years old) I think people were disappointed that I didn't jump up and down and shout like I was supposed to. I was just relieved that I wouldn't go to hell if God came back right then... it was just a task that I crossed off my list to keep from going to hell.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I felt good after the baptism, but felt bad after a while.

You see, I had already been filled with the Holy Ghost and baptized in Jesus Name. But I wanted to witness to this Methodist Pastor about the truth of baptism in Jesus Name. So I told him that I wanted to be baptized, "just like how I was taught in Japan-- out of the Bible, in the name of Jesus." It had been less than a week from my arrival back in the States from Japan, in the summer of 1997.

He asked me questions and I acted like I was fumbling around the scriptures to find stuff that I knew EXACTLY where to go to prove the point I was trying to make. I was very manipulative in my mannerisms. I was adamant about getting baptized in Jesus Name and the Methodist Pastor had to get his regional Presbyter's permission to do baptize me in this way. In fact, he joined us for the ceremony.

The way I way I went about convincing him to baptize me though was at it's core deceitful on my part.

I am told that I caused that Pastor who baptized me a lot of grief and heartache and that he eventually stopped Pastoring. I was told this by the Presbyter, who after several months asked me point blank if I was being manipulative.

When that Methodist Pastor baptized me, it was my third time getting baptized. I believe I was baptized that time in the Rappahanock River.

I haven't been baptized in water sense.

[theoldpaths]

I was baptised in Jesus' name twice. I was very young the first time and never recieved the Holy Ghost. After a few years, I'd still not been filled with the H.G. Someone suggested that I be baptised again. Perhaps I'd get the H.G. in the water! Well I didn't. Recieving the Holy Ghost was something I struggled with for several years. I left the church when I was a teen-ager to be cool and smoke dope.

In my twenties, thankfully, God drew me back! Several weeks went by and there I was in the alter again seeking the Holy Ghost, but God didn't fill me yet. Doubt came my way. I didn't know what to do!

The day I recieved the Holy Ghost is just like you described in the opener. I was in the clouds! I remember hearing my pastor tell me that I was making it much harder than it should be and when I finally released my entire self to God I remember jumping and shouting and speaking in tongues for I don't know how long. It was indescribable!

Thank God for his unspeakable gift!

[RandyWayne]

When I was baptized (at around 10 years old) I think people were disappointed that I didn't jump up and down and shout like I was supposed to. I was just relieved that I wouldn't go to hell if God came back right then... it was just a task that I crossed off my list to keep from going to hell.

I think that is how most people look at it, which is unfortunate.

[theoldpaths]

I felt a lot of emotions after asking Jesus Christ into my heart, not just then, but over the years. I was later baptized using the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost wording in a lake. I did not consider myself any more saved after the baptism than I was before the baptism. A few months later I was baptized in Jesus' Name. I did not consider myself any more saved after that baptism than I was before the baptism. Water baptism does not save, it does not cleanse, it is the answer/response of a clear conscience with God. The old person that we once were is dead and we now have new life (Jesus --the Holy Spirit--- within) so we publicly display the burial of that "old man" in a watery grave and we publicly display the new resurrection life of the "new man" by coming up out of that watery grave.

What you are saying contradicts scripture. Let's see what the bible has to say about NT water baptism and its purpose...

REMISSION OF SINS
=================
1 John 5:8 - And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

How does water and blood agree in one? Let's see if the bible shows a relationship b/n water and blood...

Must get remission of sins - Matthew 26:28 - For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Remission of Sins is only through the name - Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. - not "has" but "shall" receive - future tense - kinda like the following speaking of future tense...

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Where did Peter get remission of sins through the name? From Jesus of course...

Jesus taught remission of sins in his name - Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

How is Remission of Sins through the name? - Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

In Acts 2:38, Peter told them - repent and be baptized - who? - everyone of you - how? - in the name of Jesus Christ - why? - for the remission of sins - and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

Biblical definition of remission = washing away of sins - Acts 22:16 - And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Was Paul's sins washed away at his baptism or not? Come on now!

If a sinner had all of his past sins remitted or washed away, do you think it would give him a good conscience towards God? It seems that Peter in his epistle thought so...

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Water baptism alone does not save, but it is definitely part of the NT born again process as Jesus also taught.

Noah and his family were saved by water in the ark because the water washed away the sins and wickedness of the world - just like NT water baptism in the name of Jesus is for the remission or washing away of sins, giving one a good conscience towards God

Conscience show and agrees with the rest of scripture that it is about the remission or washing away of sins; and when all of one's past sins have been remitted or washed away it WILL give a person a good conscience towards God

God's word and not man's word - NT water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is for the remission or washing away of sins - giving one a good conscience towards God

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Baptisms - PLURAL - are part of the foundational principles of the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. Its NOT something after the foundation has been laid that is built on top of the foundation, but baptisms are part of the foundational principles of the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. Jesus taught water and Spirit baptism. If you want to fight about this, then you are fighting against truth.

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Glory to God for his unchanging truth and for strong apostolic ministers who do not forsake their spiritual heritage and the doctrine of Christ!

[theoldpaths]

I think God gives us all different experiences for different reasons. I don't remember feeling anything special when I first spoke in tongues except that I spoke in tongues which was unexpected at the time. The language just flowed out of me with no effort or forethought of my own self.

For me the baptism of the Holy Ghost was a supernatural event.

I was praying at the altar on my knees with my face in my hands and there was only 1 other person in the church, my room-mate, and he was at the back of the church as it was an early-morning, start your day off with prayer, type of things.

I had been seeking for the Holy Ghost for a while before that day, but that day, all of a sudden the power of God hit me and the next thing I knew, I was on my feet with my knees still bent and my hands up in the air and I could feel the presence of God all around me. I could feel this tangible invisible river of water gushing around my belly, and slowly rising up through my chest, then up my neck, and then when it came out of my mouth, I was speaking with other tongues as the Spirit of the Almighty God was giving me the utterance and it was not I.

It was totally amazing and I give God all the praise and glory for that special, supernatural event!

[Jermyn Davidson]

I simply disagree with you.

I am saved by Grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

As a result of that God-given faith, a person must be baptized in order to be obedient to the scriptures. Their baptism should be performed calling on the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost-- Jesus Christ.

That same person should seek out the In-filling of the Holy Ghost, with the experience of speaking in tongues under the divine inspiration of God.

[theoldpaths]

I simply disagree with you.

I am saved by Grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

As a result of that God-given faith, a person must be baptized in order to be obedient to the scriptures. Their baptism should be performed calling on the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost-- Jesus Christ.

That same person should seek out the In-filling of the Holy Ghost, with the experience of speaking in tongues under the divine inspiration of God.

Paul wrote in Ephesians, to the saints (those already saved - Eph 1:1) at Ephesus, that they were saved by grace through faith and not of works...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Paul wrote that to the church in Ephesus - let's see what Paul did with some he found in Ephesus...:)

Now Paul in Ephesus in Acts 19:1-6 found John's disciples and corrected them and re-baptized them in the name of Jesus and they rec'd the Holy Ghost

Were they in Ephesus in Acts 19 saved by grace through faith and not of works? Yes they were...They were saved by grace in that what Jesus did on the cross, we did not deserve

And through their faith they obeyed Paul and were re-baptized in the name of Jesus and they rec'd the Holy Ghost

In Acts 19 at Ephesus with Paul, they were saved by grace through faith, just like the Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles :)

In Acts 19 at Ephesus with Paul, they were not saved by the works of the OT law, just like Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles weren't either :)

There you have it - apostolic doctrine contains salvation by grace through faith and not of works :)

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Works = works of the law

Eph 2:9 - works - ergon - er'-gon - From ?????? ergo? (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.

Every where you see "works of the law" in the NT the greek word for works is ergon - just like in Eph 2:9

Works of the law - works = ergon - Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Deeds of the law - deeds = ergon - Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Another reason we know that "works" in Eph 2:9 is the works of the law is in the context of Eph 2...

Eph 2:10 We are his workman ship
Eph 2:11 says Wherefore remember... - or because of everything i just said, remember...
Eph 2:12 you were lost...
Eph 2:13 but now you are in christ jesus...
Eph 2:14 For... = in greek, assigning a reason for what was said before...
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

To paraphrase - Eph 2:10-15 - We are his workmanship...Wherefore remember...you were lost...but now you are in Jesus...For what he did...Having abolished...the law

The CONTEXT of Eph 2:8-15 shows that works in Eph 2:9 = works of the OT law

Many times in scripture Paul contrasted the 2 belief systems - OT works of the law and the NT belief system of faith in Jesus

[theoldpaths]

I simply disagree with you.

I am saved by Grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

As a result of that God-given faith, a person must be baptized in order to be obedient to the scriptures. Their baptism should be performed calling on the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost-- Jesus Christ.

That same person should seek out the In-filling of the Holy Ghost, with the experience of speaking in tongues under the divine inspiration of God.

Concerning baptism must be in a singular name and NT baptism's purpose...

REMISSION OF SINS
=================
1 John 5:8 - And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

How does water and blood agree in one? Let's see if the bible shows a relationship b/n water and blood...

Must get remission of sins - Matthew 26:28 - For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Remission of Sins is only through the name - Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. - not "has" but "shall" receive - future tense - kinda like the following speaking of future tense...

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Where did Peter get remission of sins through the name? From Jesus of course...

Jesus taught remission of sins in his name - Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

How is Remission of Sins through the name? - Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

In Acts 2:38, Peter told them - repent and be baptized - who? - everyone of you - how? - in the name of Jesus Christ - why? - for the remission of sins - and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

Biblical definition of remission = washing away of sins - Acts 22:16 - And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Was Paul's sins washed away at his baptism or not? Come on now!

If a sinner had all of his past sins remitted or washed away, do you think it would give him a good conscience towards God? It seems that Peter in his epistle thought so...

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Water baptism alone does not save, but it is definitely part of the NT born again process as Jesus also taught.

Noah and his family were saved by water in the ark because the water washed away the sins and wickedness of the world - just like NT water baptism in the name of Jesus is for the remission or washing away of sins, giving one a good conscience towards God

Conscience show and agrees with the rest of scripture that it is about the remission or washing away of sins; and when all of one's past sins have been remitted or washed away it WILL give a person a good conscience towards God

God's word and not man's word - NT water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is for the remission or washing away of sins - giving one a good conscience towards God

Paul understood that people must be baptized in a name - 1 Cor 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

Who was crucified for you? Jesus. Whose NAME should you be baptized in? Jesus. Remission of sins is ONLY through the name.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Baptisms - PLURAL - are part of the foundational principles of the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. Its NOT something after the foundation has been laid that is built on top of the foundation, but baptisms are part of the foundational principles of the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. Jesus taught water and Spirit baptism. If you want to fight about this, then you are fighting against truth.

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

[theoldpaths]

I simply disagree with you.

I am saved by Grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

As a result of that God-given faith, a person must be baptized in order to be obedient to the scriptures. Their baptism should be performed calling on the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost-- Jesus Christ.

That same person should seek out the In-filling of the Holy Ghost, with the experience of speaking in tongues under the divine inspiration of God.

Concerning where the titles came from...

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the second century." - Britanica Encyclopedia. 11th Ed., Vol.3, pp.365, 366; Also The change, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol.2, pp.263

Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: He makes this confession as to the origin of the chief Trinity text of Matthew 28:19. "The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome." The Trinity baptism and text of Matthew 28:19 therefore did not originate from the original Church that started in Jerusalem around AD 33. It was rather as the evidence proves a later invention of Roman Catholicism completely fabricated. Very few know about these historical facts.

"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius: Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to this eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus' actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19 "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsover I have commanded you." That "Name" is Jesus.

Matthew 28:19 - Eusebius of Caesarea (~275 – May 30, 339), bishop of Caesarea in Palestine and is often referred to as the father of church history because of his work in recording the history of the early Christian church Some 17 times in his works prior to Nicea (325 AD Catholic Trinitarian Council), Eusebius quotes Matthew 28:19 as "Go and make disciples of all nations in my name" without mentioning the Trinity baptism command.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, the Britanica Encyclopedia, the Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Eusebius Bishop of Caesarea, Luke 24:47, the book of Acts, and Paul in 1 Cor 1:13-14 all testify as witnesses of the early Catholic's changing NT water baptism from the word of God to the words of men - from the name of Jesus Christ - to the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the second century." - Britanica Encyclopedia. 11th Ed., Vol.3, pp.365, 366; Also The change, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol.2, pp.263

Romans 1:25 - Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Notice that those who changed the truth of God into a lie, worship and serve the creature more than the creator - but notice they still worship and serve the creator

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

By 70-75 AD a New or NeoChristian Church was produced which was in a Greek dress of Hellenism and went on to become the Catholic Church - O.W. Heick, A History of Christian Thought, Vol. 1, Fortress Press, Pa., 1965, 1st ed., p.46; Adolf Harnack, What is Christiannity, NY, Harper, 1957, p.221

In John's life time, they started baptizing WITHOUT the name.

That is why in Revelations Jesus praised some churches for NOT DENYING HIS NAME. How could a church DENY his name? By removing it from NT water baptism and using the Catholic trinitarian titles.

[Jermyn Davidson]

TheOldPaths,

I was baptized in Jesus Name. I was just trying to let you know that i know through scripture that the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is One-- Jesus Christ.

I will carefully read over your other posts.

[theoldpaths]

TheOldPaths,

I was baptized in Jesus Name. I was just trying to let you know that i know through scripture that the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is One-- Jesus Christ.

I will carefully read over your other posts.

Ok - then just consider my posts repetitive teaching ;)

[ILG]

When I was water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins, in obedience to Acts 2:38, for the rest of that night I felt good on the inside, clean, light, and almost like a was a little tipsy; and I give God all of the glory for that. I did not have the Holy Ghost at that time but I had faith and had repented of my sins. I did get the Holy Ghost a few months later though.

In my born again walk though, I have come across some who were baptized the same way but in a different church, but did not feel anything different at all after they were baptized.

I've also read of some who were baptized and didn't feel anything different who heard about others who had and to make a long story short, found an apostolic minister who had re-baptized people who had NOT felt anything different and afterwards they did feel different.

So I thought I would ask apostolics in here if they felt anything different at all after they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins?

When I was baptized by immersion in the titles I felt totally cleansed and renewed. Later, after baptism in Jesus name, I didn't feel anything at all. I was also baptized as a baby and I don't remember feeling anything then. :)

[deltaguitar]

Like many here Baptism didn't really mean anything to me other than just crossing off something on the list to keep me out of hell.

I couldn't speak in tongues like everybody wanted me to so I was told to get baptized and I would receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. So I did it, I can barely remember but I know I was about six or seven.

[ManOfWord]

My life DRASTICALLY changed after I was water baptized! Not because I was baptized in Jesus' name, which I was, but because I had counted the cost and did not make an emotional decision to follow Jesus. When I was water baptized, I had decided to follow Him with all my heart and never turn back! From that night, I stopped using drugs, alcohol etc. all w/o the HG. It wasn't until 3 mos later that I received the HG baptism. The only thing that really changed was that I could speak w/tongues......still can and do.

I still believe that the HG baptism is the Power of God in our lives, but I see many people whose lives drastically change at water baptism BEFORE the infilling of the HG. :D

[mizpeh]

I still believe that the HG baptism is the Power of God in our lives, but I see many people whose lives drastically change at water baptism BEFORE the infilling of the HG. :D

Repentance will do that! It's a DRASTIC change of mind and direction. But it's not the new birth. Baptism on the other hand (washes away sins) and the infilling of the Holy Spirit (baptism) both put us IN CHRIST or in the body of Christ.

[U376977]

I felt a lot of emotions after asking Jesus Christ into my heart, not just then, but over the years. I was later baptized using the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost wording in a lake. I did not consider myself any more saved after the baptism than I was before the baptism. A few months later I was baptized in Jesus' Name. I did not consider myself any more saved after that baptism than I was before the baptism. Water baptism does not save, it does not cleanse, it is the answer/response of a clear conscience with God. The old person that we once were is dead and we now have new life (Jesus --the Holy Spirit--- within) so we publicly display the burial of that "old man" in a watery grave and we publicly display the new resurrection life of the "new man" by coming up out of that watery grave.

Sam, this is so true. I think if we have more teaching like this we would not have people being baptized multiple times trying to capture a feeling or gain victory over sin. The water has its place but I think many apostolics have elevated it FAR ABOVE the actual place soterialogically.

[ManOfWord]

Repentance will do that! It's a DRASTIC change of mind and direction. But it's not the new birth. Baptism on the other hand (washes away sins) and the infilling of the Holy Spirit (baptism) both put us IN CHRIST or in the body of Christ.


At the risk of it going in "that" direction again, how can someone receive the HG baptism before being water baptized if baptism actually takes away sin?


You don't really have to answer.....it was more rhetorical than anything. Not intending to get into all of it again! :D

[Dedicated Mind]

At the risk of it going in "that" direction again, how can someone receive the HG baptism before being water baptized if baptism actually takes away sin?


You don't really have to answer.....it was more rhetorical than anything. Not intending to get into all of it again! :D

I was baptized after receiving the holyghost and I felt a spiritual cleansing after being baptized in water. Baptism in Jesus name washed away my sins.

[ManOfWord]

I was baptized after receiving the holyghost and I felt a spiritual cleansing after being baptized in water. Baptism in Jesus name washed away my sins.

Uh....technically, Jesus' blood washed away your sins...it was NOT the water.

[theoldpaths]

Uh....technically, Jesus' blood washed away your sins...it was NOT the water.

1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The water and the blood agree in one.

[theoldpaths]

Sam, this is so true. I think if we have more teaching like this we would not have people being baptized multiple times trying to capture a feeling or gain victory over sin. The water has its place but I think many apostolics have elevated it FAR ABOVE the actual place soterialogically.

soterialogically?

Keep it simple - write or speak to your audience level.

Jesus spoke in terms that simple fisher men and farmers could understand.

Some might get the idea that you are trying to impress others with your big words.

Just some thoughts.

[Praxeas]

soterialogically?

Keep it simple - write or speak to your audience level.

Jesus spoke in terms that simple fisher men and farmers could understand.

Some might get the idea that you are trying to impress others with your big words.

Just some thoughts.
I didn't get that impression

[theoldpaths]

I didn't get that impression

Perhaps I'm the only one who doesn't know what soterialogically means?

[Sam]

1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The water and the blood agree in one.

The water, spirit, and blood agree in one what?

[jaxfam6]

I simply disagree with you.

I am saved by Grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

As a result of that God-given faith, a person must be baptized in order to be obedient to the scriptures. Their baptism should be performed calling on the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost-- Jesus Christ.

That same person should seek out the In-filling of the Holy Ghost, with the experience of speaking in tongues under the divine inspiration of God.

I agree

I think that we have for to long been afraid of this truth. I know that works don't save us. I know that faith without works is dead. I know that we need to born of water and of spirit. Those things do not save us though.
When we believe on Jesus and his ability to save us that is our faith. His grace then saves us. We follow through with the other things because we see His example, follow it, and show an outward sign of our faith by doing so.

Just a thought but is the infilling of the Holy Ghost what makes a peculiar people? By being filled with the Holy Ghost we have seperated ourselves from the world. Doesn't mean we do not live in the world just says that we are different from the world. By having the Holy Ghost we live differently than the world. We do not act like the world. We are marked as His.

[Praxeas]

Perhaps I'm the only one who doesn't know what soterialogically means?
study of salvation basically

Theology, study of God
Eschatology, study of prophecy

[Romans 14:22]

I have been baptized three times.

My first baptism was in the Brethern church face down three times, in the name of the Father(splash) and the name of the Son(splash) and the name of the Holy Ghost(splash). I felt kinda good b/c I was doing all I knew to do as a Christian.

The second time I got baptized was in Olangapo city, Phillipines. I received the Holy Ghost at sea onboard an Aircraft Carrier in the middle of the Western Pacific. When we hit port I heard some of the guys were getting baptized and I had been feeling led to get baptized myslf so I asked if I could come along.

Either the Lay minister(Baptist) or the church(Baptist) believed in Jesus name baptism b/c they baptized me in the titles and in Jesus name. I am not making this up, I remember the Lay minister talking about the Jesus name part and there being some debate and stirring up either with him or the church. Anyways, I told him that I had just read in the bible that the Apostles baptized that way and said that I totally agreed with it. He didn't seem to believe me but I knew what I had read.

When I came out of the water I felt totally cleansed and great joy that lasted most of the night. As a matter of fact, I went out into the streets and spent the rest of the evening witnessing to the Phillipine people. I remember thinking to myself "why do I feel so good since baptism is just following Jesus example".

My last baptism was strictly in Jesus name b/c my Pastor said my second baptism was invalid. I didn't agree but did it anyways. I still wonder if it was necessary to be re-baptized again. All I felt was wet and was glad to get it over with.

So to sum it all up, I did have a spiritual experience my second baptism, but if hadn't I would still have been happy I did what the the bible said to do.

I guess soteriologicaly I would fall towards the 3 step argument of salvation and think the Bible agrees with me. In my humble opinion.

[theoldpaths]

study of salvation basically

Theology, study of God
Eschatology, study of prophecy

Oh, ok - thank you - learned something today :)

[theoldpaths]

I have been baptized three times.

My first baptism was in the Brethern church face down three times, in the name of the Father(splash) and the name of the Son(splash) and the name of the Holy Ghost(splash). I felt kinda good b/c I was doing all I knew to do as a Christian.

The second time I got baptized was in Olangapo city, Phillipines. I received the Holy Ghost at sea onboard an Aircraft Carrier in the middle of the Western Pacific. When we hit port I heard some of the guys were getting baptized and I had been feeling led to get baptized myslf so I asked if I could come along.

Either the Lay minister(Baptist) or the church(Baptist) believed in Jesus name baptism b/c they baptized me in the titles and in Jesus name. I am not making this up, I remember the Lay minister talking about the Jesus name part and there being some debate and stirring up either with him or the church. Anyways, I told him that I had just read in the bible that the Apostles baptized that way and said that I totally agreed with it. He didn't seem to believe me but I knew what I had read.

When I came out of the water I felt totally cleansed and great joy that lasted most of the night. As a matter of fact, I went out into the streets and spent the rest of the evening witnessing to the Phillipine people. I remember thinking to myself "why do I feel so good since baptism is just following Jesus example".

My last baptism was strictly in Jesus name b/c my Pastor said my second baptism was invalid. I didn't agree but did it anyways. I still wonder if it was necessary to be re-baptized again. All I felt was wet and was glad to get it over with.

So to sum it all up, I did have a spiritual experience my second baptism, but if hadn't I would still have been happy I did what the the bible said to do.

I guess soteriologicaly I would fall towards the 3 step argument of salvation and think the Bible agrees with me. In my humble opinion.

Amen!

I could understand how apostolic pastor's would be concerned about a baptism that included the original method of Christ of in Jesus Name and mixing that with the Catholic trinitarian method.

fyi...

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the second century." - Britanica Encyclopedia. 11th Ed., Vol.3, pp.365, 366; Also The change, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol.2, pp.263

Romans 1:25 - Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

[U376977]

Amen!

I could understand how apostolic pastor's would be concerned about a baptism that included the original method of Christ of in Jesus Name and mixing that with the Catholic trinitarian method.

fyi...

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the second century." - Britanica Encyclopedia. 11th Ed., Vol.3, pp.365, 366; Also The change, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol.2, pp.263

Romans 1:25 - Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


Or you could just ask the pastor to baptize, "In the name of the Father, Son and HG, the name of Jesus, the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord Jesus Christ."

That way you cover all bases.

[theoldpaths]

Or you could just ask the pastor to baptize, "In the name of the Father, Son and HG, the name of Jesus, the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord Jesus Christ."

That way you cover all bases.

I'm not a pastor, but my opinion is that in the great commission Jesus was speaking to his disciples and they understood him best. I was not there, but the apostles were. And how did they interpret the great commission? Actions speak louder than words. How did they obey the great commission and how did they baptize in the book of Acts?

See the pharisees rejected John's baptism of repentance for the "remission of sins" and went about setting up their own righteousness and Jesus had the most problems with them.

Now look what the early Catholics did. They admit in writing in their own Catholic Encyclopedia that they changed NT baptism from the name of Jesus Christ to the titles. They rejected the real NT baptism from God which was in the name of Jesus Christ for the "remission of sins" and went about setting up their own righteousness. In doing so, they became just like the Pharisees...

Matthew 15:6 Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1 Tim 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1 Tim 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1 Tim 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

That's my 2 cents.

For me its not covering all bases like they are all possibilities and if you miss 1 you might go to hell. I'm okay with the original.

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the second century." - Britanica Encyclopedia. 11th Ed., Vol.3, pp.365, 366; Also The change, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol.2, pp.263

[livefortruth]

ABSOLUTELY! I felt a change all my sins were washed away. I knew it was all gone and it was a clean slate. Months later I recieved the gift of the Holy Ghost evidence by speaking in tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance as in Acts 10:46.

The path is straight and narrow is the gate, its acts 2:4 plus acts 2:38,

[Justin]

Concerning where the titles came from...

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the second century." - Britanica Encyclopedia. 11th Ed., Vol.3, pp.365, 366; Also The change, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol.2, pp.263

Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: He makes this confession as to the origin of the chief Trinity text of Matthew 28:19. "The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome." The Trinity baptism and text of Matthew 28:19 therefore did not originate from the original Church that started in Jerusalem around AD 33. It was rather as the evidence proves a later invention of Roman Catholicism completely fabricated. Very few know about these historical facts.

"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius: Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to this eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus' actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19 "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsover I have commanded you." That "Name" is Jesus.

Matthew 28:19 - Eusebius of Caesarea (~275 – May 30, 339), bishop of Caesarea in Palestine and is often referred to as the father of church history because of his work in recording the history of the early Christian church Some 17 times in his works prior to Nicea (325 AD Catholic Trinitarian Council), Eusebius quotes Matthew 28:19 as "Go and make disciples of all nations in my name" without mentioning the Trinity baptism command.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, the Britanica Encyclopedia, the Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Eusebius Bishop of Caesarea, Luke 24:47, the book of Acts, and Paul in 1 Cor 1:13-14 all testify as witnesses of the early Catholic's changing NT water baptism from the word of God to the words of men - from the name of Jesus Christ - to the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the second century." - Britanica Encyclopedia. 11th Ed., Vol.3, pp.365, 366; Also The change, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol.2, pp.263

Romans 1:25 - Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Notice that those who changed the truth of God into a lie, worship and serve the creature more than the creator - but notice they still worship and serve the creator

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

By 70-75 AD a New or NeoChristian Church was produced which was in a Greek dress of Hellenism and went on to become the Catholic Church - O.W. Heick, A History of Christian Thought, Vol. 1, Fortress Press, Pa., 1965, 1st ed., p.46; Adolf Harnack, What is Christiannity, NY, Harper, 1957, p.221

In John's life time, they started baptizing WITHOUT the name.

That is why in Revelations Jesus praised some churches for NOT DENYING HIS NAME. How could a church DENY his name? By removing it from NT water baptism and using the Catholic trinitarian titles.

This is good information. I taught a short sermon on this last night. People don't want to hear that the bible has man made scriptures in it. That doesn't settle well with them. But the truth of the matter is, Jesus never uttered those words (Baptize them in the Father, Son, Holy Ghost)

Rather than accepting that those words were added, we often find our leadership stating that this (Matt 28:19) was a prophecy that was fulfilled in Acts 2:28. That works... but it's not the absolute truth.

[*AQuietPlace*]

This is good information. I taught a short sermon on this last night. People don't want to hear that the bible has man made scriptures in it. That doesn't settle well with them. But the truth of the matter is, Jesus never uttered those words (Baptize them in the Father, Son, Holy Ghost)

Rather than accepting that those words were added, we often find our leadership stating that this (Matt 28:19) was a prophecy that was fulfilled in Acts 2:28. That works... but it's not the absolute truth.
So we are to believe that God allowed a scripture to be inserted into the Holy Bible that has caused millions of people to be deceived, baptized incorrectly, and sent to hell? I'll confess that that idea really bothers me.

[Justin]

So we are to believe that God allowed a scripture to be inserted into the Holy Bible that has caused millions of people to be deceived, baptized incorrectly, and sent to hell? I'll confess that that idea really bothers me.

And it should. I bothers me. The devil IS a liar, and we are to seek our own salvation with fear and trembling.

It's saddening to think that so many people are content with "the norm". Narrow is the way!

God's truth can never be tampered with!

[deltaguitar]

And it should. I bothers me. The devil IS a liar, and we are to seek our own salvation with fear and trembling.

It's saddening to think that so many people are content with "the norm". Narrow is the way!

God's truth can never be tampered with!

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Verse 13 seems to say that God is the one who will work in us to salvation if we are in him.

Also in light of Romans 8:30-34
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

It is very hard for me to think, in light of the above passage, that God would pour out his wrath upon those that Jesus died for because of a technicality. I think at the very foundation we are still dealing with works based salvation here. So God sends his son to die and purchase his bride because we deserve death and his redemption work yet there is still a condition of getting a specific formula right that has been hidden from all Christianity. I just don't get it. :nah

[Justin]

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Verse 13 seems to say that God is the one who will work in us to salvation if we are in him.

Also in light of Romans 8:30-34
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

It is very hard for me to think, in light of the above passage, that God would pour out his wrath upon those that Jesus died for because of a technicality. I think at the very foundation we are still dealing with works based salvation here. So God sends his son to die and purchase his bride because we deserve death and his redemption work yet there is still a condition of getting a specific formula right that has been hidden from all Christianity. I just don't get it. :nah

Me neither brother. God is just.

What about the hidden tribes in Africa who've never heard the Gospel message? How will God judge them? Will he allow them in to heaven, or will he judge according to his word?

[LUKE2447]

So we are to believe that God allowed a scripture to be inserted into the Holy Bible that has caused millions of people to be deceived, baptized incorrectly, and sent to hell? I'll confess that that idea really bothers me.


did Jesus not speak of why false prophets are allowed as well? There are many scriptures that are questionable not just Mat 28:19. You argument fails on what we have is absolute truth and perfect. It's not they are translations. Unless you want to go the KJV ONLY argument then one would have to ask you what was the perfect witness before it since according to that line of reasoning we must always have had something perfect.

Let's also look at the millions who never even had a Bible through the centuries thanks to the Catholic church etc.... Then it was limited to certain passages and what they taught. Most never even owned a set of writings called the Bible.

[LUKE2447]

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Verse 13 seems to say that God is the one who will work in us to salvation if we are in him.

Also in light of Romans 8:30-34
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

It is very hard for me to think, in light of the above passage, that God would pour out his wrath upon those that Jesus died for because of a technicality. I think at the very foundation we are still dealing with works based salvation here. So God sends his son to die and purchase his bride because we deserve death and his redemption work yet there is still a condition of getting a specific formula right that has been hidden from all Christianity. I just don't get it. :nah


Salvation does have the element of work to it. Jesus never said it did not.

You are my friends IF you do what I command!
IF you walk in the light as he is in the light you have fellowship with one another and with the blood of JEsus Christ which cleanses you from sin.

Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. Joh 15:9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.
Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments (LAW)and abide in his love.

Jesus fulfilled law and so will we if we do as he commands. Either live after the Spirit or die allowing the flesh to reign in us.

The reason Abraham was called teh friend of God was because he was faithful not just had mental assent. We are his friends IF we do what he commands just like Abraham. THAT IS TRUE FAITH!

[Sam]

Me neither brother. God is just.

What about the hidden tribes in Africa who've never heard the Gospel message? How will God judge them? Will he allow them in to heaven, or will he judge according to his word?

The late Bishop G.T. Haywood addressed this in his book on the resurrection. This is how he (and subsequent ministers and UPC Bible Schools) taught it:

The Second Resurrection.
According to the inspired word of God the resurrection of the
"blessed and Holy" is completed a thousand years before the second
resurrection. It is from this point that we are obliged to note the
difference between partakers of the two resurrections.

After the thousand years expire "the rest of the dead" (those who
did not come forth in the first resurrection) both righteous and
wicked, live again and are made to stand before God. It is then that
Jesus separates them as a shepherd divideth the sheep from the goat
according to Matt. 25:31-46.

In this resurrection is included all the righteous men of all
ages who walked in all the light that they were given. It is my candid
opinion that all heathen, Israelites, Christian professors who have
never heard the true gospel of Christ and those who die during
the millennium, walking in the light of their times will be given
eternal life at the last resurrection.

Many righteous people have died without the Holy Ghost and
the question has been asked: "Where will they come in?" They shall be
given eternal life in the last day. They shall inherit the New
Earth where life eternal reigns because "there shall be no more death.

[LUKE2447]

Me neither brother. God is just.

What about the hidden tribes in Africa who've never heard the Gospel message? How will God judge them? Will he allow them in to heaven, or will he judge according to his word?


WOW! What we do to feel good about situations and accept making God contrary to himself. Do you really actually think what you said is a possibility? You make "allowing them" in AGAINST "his Word." That is basically saying God can lie. UNBELIEVABLE!

[LUKE2447]

The late Bishop G.T. Haywood addressed this in his book on the resurrection. This is how he (and subsequent ministers and UPC Bible Schools) taught it:

The Second Resurrection.
According to the inspired word of God the resurrection of the
"blessed and Holy" is completed a thousand years before the second
resurrection. It is from this point that we are obliged to note the
difference between partakers of the two resurrections.

After the thousand years expire "the rest of the dead" (those who
did not come forth in the first resurrection) both righteous and
wicked, live again and are made to stand before God. It is then that
Jesus separates them as a shepherd divideth the sheep from the goat
according to Matt. 25:31-46.

In this resurrection is included all the righteous men of all
ages who walked in all the light that they were given. It is my candid
opinion that all heathen, Israelites, Christian professors who have
never heard the true gospel of Christ and those who die during
the millennium, walking in the light of their times will be given
eternal life at the last resurrection.

Many righteous people have died without the Holy Ghost and
the question has been asked: "Where will they come in?" They shall be
given eternal life in the last day. They shall inherit the New
Earth where life eternal reigns because "there shall be no more death.

well, seems everyone has some false doctrine they believe in.

[Justin]

The late Bishop G.T. Haywood addressed this in his book on the resurrection. This is how he (and subsequent ministers and UPC Bible Schools) taught it:

The Second Resurrection.
According to the inspired word of God the resurrection of the
"blessed and Holy" is completed a thousand years before the second
resurrection. It is from this point that we are obliged to note the
difference between partakers of the two resurrections.

After the thousand years expire "the rest of the dead" (those who
did not come forth in the first resurrection) both righteous and
wicked, live again and are made to stand before God. It is then that
Jesus separates them as a shepherd divideth the sheep from the goat
according to Matt. 25:31-46.

In this resurrection is included all the righteous men of all
ages who walked in all the light that they were given. It is my candid
opinion that all heathen, Israelites, Christian professors who have
never heard the true gospel of Christ and those who die during
the millennium, walking in the light of their times will be given
eternal life at the last resurrection.

Many righteous people have died without the Holy Ghost and
the question has been asked: "Where will they come in?" They shall be
given eternal life in the last day. They shall inherit the New
Earth where life eternal reigns because "there shall be no more death.



If this is true... the apostles should have done all of us a favor and ensured salvation for us by hiding the Gospel message. That way, none of us would hear the word, but we'd all get to go to heaven no matter how we lived.

Maybe that's what the Catholic church set out to do by burning bibles and condemning laymen to read it.

Should we thank them for this?

:tic

:ursofunny

[LUKE2447]

If this is true... the apostles should have done all of us a favor and ensured salvation for us by hiding the Gospel message. That way, none of us would hear the word, but we'd all get to go to heaven no matter how we lived.

Maybe that's what the Catholic church set out to do by burning bibles and condemning laymen to read it.

Should we thank them for this?

:tic

:ursofunny

excellent principled logic.... I will teach one way and if I'm wrong and God allows more in I won't complain but be thankful for his unknown mercy and grace but if I'm right..........

[deltaguitar]

WOW! What we do to feel good about situations and accept making God contrary to himself. Do you really actually think what you said is a possibility? You make "allowing them" in AGAINST "his Word." That is basically saying God can lie. UNBELIEVABLE!

excellent principled logic.... I will teach one way and if I'm wrong and God allows more in I won't complain but be thankful for his unknown mercy and grace but if I'm right..........

God is sovereign and just. He will make a way for men to hear the gospel if he so chooses.
John 3:8
8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

[KWSS1976]

Yep I changed cloths...LOL

[Billy Boy]

Many have been baptized in father, son and holy ghost and felt the wonderful cleansing from sin, many also have been baptized in Jesus name and felt nothing. This is because its not so much what the baptiser says as what is the condition of the heart of the baptizee.

[KWSS1976]

Billy Bob that was spot on. I really don't think it matters either...

[*AQuietPlace*]

I didn't feel a change at all after baptism, but I did after I repented and felt like a completely new and reborn person after I spoke in tongues.

I was baptized in Jesus name.

[LUKE2447]

Many have been baptized in father, son and holy ghost and felt the wonderful cleansing from sin, many also have been baptized in Jesus name and felt nothing. This is because its not so much what the baptiser says as what is the condition of the heart of the baptizee.

and of course many feel the same exact thing by simply repenting to there friend or whoever to get whatever off their chest. What is amazing is you are basing doctrine off of feeling which means nothing but a emotional release. UN-BELIEVABLE! I can only shake my head out how people judge truth and rationalize it down to "did you feel good afterward?" thus the "well since we don't get consensus of feelings across the board of endorphins hitting the blood stream thus it really must not matter and the mode doesn't matter as well but the heart" sheeesh yeah the heart matters like that takes a genius to figure out. It still does matter in the manner in what you believe and by whose authority you do what you do. I don't see people going around casting out demons in the name of BOB.... As they respond Jesus I know, Bob not so much!

[Billy Boy]

and of course many feel the same exact thing by simply repenting to there friend or whoever to get whatever off their chest. What is amazing is you are basing doctrine off of feeling which means nothing but a emotional release. UN-BELIEVABLE! I can only shake my head out how people judge truth and rationalize it down to "did you feel good afterward?" thus the "well since we don't get consensus of feelings across the board of endorphins hitting the blood stream thus it really must not matter and the mode doesn't matter as well but the heart" sheeesh yeah the heart matters like that takes a genius to figure out. It still does matter in the manner in what you believe and by whose authority you do what you do. I don't see people going around casting out demons in the name of BOB.... As they respond Jesus I know, Bob not so much!

Bob is not the name of the father , son and holy ghost - Jesus is! You cannot separate Jesus from those titles - There is no one else who can claim those three titles! They are who Jesus is! I believe that because I am oneness!

[KWSS1976]

I don't see people casting out demons in the name of Jesus either so your point being....

[Billy Boy]

I don't see people casting out demons in the name of Jesus either so your point being....

My point is- many oneness people are afraid of the term father , son and holy ghost when that is exactly who Jesus is! You cannot separate that title from him! There is no other father ,son and Holy ghost but Him.

[KWSS1976]

I was refering to luke2447 not you billy

[Sam]

Many have been baptized in father, son and holy ghost and felt the wonderful cleansing from sin, many also have been baptized in Jesus name and felt nothing. This is because its not so much what the baptiser says as what is the condition of the heart of the baptizee.

1 Peter 3:21 says that water baptism does not actually cleanse away any filth of the flesh but is the answer/response of a clear conscience. When a person gets saved, all his sin is washed away. He is a new creature. He is dead to sin. The response should be then to follow up that salvation/new birth experience with water baptism. Several times in the Book of Acts there is mention of water baptism following the conversion/salvation/regeneration experience.

[LUKE2447]

1 Peter 3:21 says that water baptism does not actually cleanse away any filth of the flesh but is the answer/response of a clear conscience. When a person gets saved, all his sin is washed away. He is a new creature. He is dead to sin. The response should be then to follow up that salvation/new birth experience with water baptism. Several times in the Book of Acts there is mention of water baptism following the conversion/salvation/regeneration experience.

Well considering you ar not saved until you are united with the blood of Christ and in his death in baptism you are not saved.... Nice way to jump the gun as usual Sam!

[LUKE2447]

Bob is not the name of the father , son and holy ghost - Jesus is! You cannot separate Jesus from those titles - There is no one else who can claim those three titles! They are who Jesus is! I believe that because I am oneness!

Exactly BILLY and the name FATHER SON HS designates nothing but aspects of who he is. His name declared unto us FOR salvation is what.... JESUS!
There is ONE NAME given unto men....!

[deltaguitar]

Well considering you ar not saved until you are united with the blood of Christ and in his death in baptism you are not saved.... Nice way to jump the gun as usual Sam!

It is no fun arguing with you baptismal regeneration guys anymore. We can leave out all truth, doctrine, rules of biblical interpretation, and the beliefs of Christianity since the reformation. No matter what point is made you guys will still jump through hoops tossssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss sssssssssssssssssssaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa;llllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllll Let us just admit that this is all about preserving the doctrinal identity of this movement at all cost.

Above you state that we are not saved until we are united with the blood of Christ AND in his death in baptism. Well how does this happen? How do we obtain our salvation? We have to follow these three steps of obedience in order experience new birth yet for some reason no other obedience matters.

[Billy Boy]

Exactly BILLY and the name FATHER SON HS designates nothing but aspects of who he is. His name declared unto us FOR salvation is what.... JESUS!
There is ONE NAME given unto men....!

Thank You, and the Disciples knew that Jesus was the father, son and holy ghost also, that is why they had no problem refering to Him by any or all of those titles or Jesus! Too many oneness people are so hung up on the name that they miss his attributes!

[LUKE2447]

It is no fun arguing with you baptismal regeneration guys anymore. We can leave out all truth, doctrine, rules of biblical interpretation, and the beliefs of Christianity since the reformation. No matter what point is made you guys will still jump through hoops tossssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss sssssssssssssssssssaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa;llllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllll Let us just admit that this is all about preserving the doctrinal identity of this movement at all cost.

Above you state that we are not saved until we are united with the blood of Christ AND in his death in baptism. Well how does this happen? How do we obtain our salvation? We have to follow these three steps of obedience in order experience new birth yet for some reason no other obedience matters.


I have no stake in "the movement" to win at all costs. Truth prevails no matter my or anyone elses intentions. scripture is very clear. You need to study the failures of Luther and his translation in German concerning "faith" and many other aspects as well. The Reformation is just the start of many failures.
I imagine it's not fun being on the wrong side of the argument. I also find that people that don't believe in baptism for remission of sins usually have a poor understanding of works and that without obedience you cannot be saved.

To come into covenant is one thing. To stay in covenant is another. Obedience is essential to salvation. It's called being faithful.

I find people that don't believe in baptism is essential to the new birth experience have little to go on have to change a lot of scripture to mean something else than what it clearly says. I don't have to jump through hoops as scripture is very clear concerning baptism. History also shows that viewpiont as you won't find anything but baptism is essential for the first 1500+ years.

[LUKE2447]

nm

[deltaguitar]

I have no stake in "the movement" to win at all costs. Truth prevails no matter my or anyone elses intentions. scripture is very clear. You need to study the failures of Luther and his translation in German concerning "faith" and many other aspects as well. The Reformation is just the start of many failures.
I imagine it's not fun being on the wrong side of the argument. I also find that people that don't believe in baptism for remission of sins usually have a poor understanding of works and that without obedience you cannot be saved.

To come into covenant is one thing. To stay in covenant is another. Obedience is essential to salvation. It's called being faithful.

I find people that don't believe in baptism is essential to the new birth experience have little to go on have to change a lot of scripture to mean something else than what it clearly says. I don't have to jump through hoops as scripture is very clear concerning baptism. History also shows that viewpiont as you won't find anything but baptism is essential for the first 1500+ years.

Yes, truth will prevail. True faith is always accompanied by obedience. However, the obedience you talk about is repentance, water baptism, and speaking in tongues. However, the greatest commandment is to love the lord our God and our neighbor as ourself. If this is the greatest commandment why is our emphasis on baptisms as obedience.

If you are going to make obedience a prerequisite for new birth then the number one commandment has to come before anything else.

Also, if you want to look at messes just look at the confusion and just plain stupidity that is going on within the pentecostal circles of today. If Acts 2:38 is such a great revelation then why has God not blessed the movement. The Oneness movement itself has been plagued with confusion and coverups about it's own history and development of it's doctrine. We hear about the great revivals only to find out they didn't happen, we hear about miracles that will never be documented, we find that such and such groups are "looking our way" only to find that it is all just exaggerations if not outright lies, and we were told we where the fastest growing group twenty years ago and not only does it look like there hasn't been any growth we can't even get real numbers to know the truth.

[LUKE2447]

Yes, truth will prevail. True faith is always accompanied by obedience. However, the obedience you talk about is repentance, water baptism, and speaking in tongues. However, the greatest commandment is to love the lord our God and our neighbor as ourself. If this is the greatest commandment why is our emphasis on baptisms as obedience.

Obviously you don't pay much attention to everything I have said in the past as I am probably the most vocal about LAW on this board concerning Mark12:29-31. Yo uare also confusing issues. Ever read a book by David Bernard? He clearly teaches on love in his books of Holiness and others. He is about as much a staple of doctrine as you can point to of a org than maybe besides The JW's Watch Tower or some others.

If you are going to make obedience a prerequisite for new birth then the number one commandment has to come before anything else.

Also you fail to understand the point of coming INTO covenant and staying IN covenant. They are not the same.

Also, if you want to look at messes just look at the confusion and just plain stupidity that is going on within the pentecostal circles of today. If Acts 2:38 is such a great revelation then why has God not blessed the movement.

Personal opinion based on what and please define blessed? The UPC was one of the fastest growing org for a long time. If truth is based on growth then I guess heretics are correct as well. As I can point all throughout history to show this argument is poor.

The Oneness movement itself has been plagued with confusion and coverups about it's own history and development of it's doctrine.

Oh please! Seriously, so men do certain things and that makes the EVERYTHING thing wrong. Then my friend you just destroyed the Reformation as it had plrenty of issues of violence, murder and total lawlessness! As far as I am concerned most of it was false doctrine anyway.

We hear about the great revivals only to find out they didn't happen, we hear about miracles that will never be documented, we find that such and such groups are "looking our way" only to find that it is all just exaggerations if not outright lies, and we were told we where the fastest growing group twenty years ago and not only does it look like there hasn't been any growth we can't even get real numbers to know the truth.

They did grow really fast the problem is splits in the org. I am not UPC but your points though just make me laugh at your logic... sorry but you can virtually point this as any org to some extent. LOL! Humans and organizations will always have some failures somewhere. Always have and always will. The kingdom of God in US! Orgs are nothing more than affiliations in which we see a common belief system, nothing else! Quit basing truth on organizations and the failures of men!

[deltaguitar]

Obviously you don't pay much attention to everything I have said in the past as I am probably the most vocal about LAW on this board concerning Mark12:29-31. Yo uare also confusing issues. Ever read a book by David Bernard? He clearly teaches on love in his books of Holiness and others. He is about as much a staple of doctrine as you can point to of a org than maybe besides The JW's Watch Tower or some others.



Also you fail to understand the point of coming INTO covenant and staying IN covenant. They are not the same.



Personal opinion based on what and please define blessed? The UPC was one of the fastest growing org for a long time. If truth is based on growth then I guess heretics are correct as well. As I can point all throughout history to show this argument is poor.



Oh please! Seriously, so men do certain things and that makes the EVERYTHING thing wrong. Then my friend you just destroyed the Reformation as it had plrenty of issues of violence, murder and total lawlessness! As far as I am concerned most of it was false doctrine anyway.



They did grow really fast the problem is splits in the org. I am not UPC but your points though just make me laugh at your logic... sorry but you can virtually point this as any org to some extent. LOL! Humans and organizations will always have some failures somewhere. Always have and always will. The kingdom of God in US! Orgs are nothing more than affiliations in which we see a common belief system, nothing else! Quit basing truth on organizations and the failures of men!

1) I have read most of David Bernard's books. Remember, I grew up UPC and believed it all. David Bernard holds to teaching traditional standards and UPC doctrine in a love based way. This is typical of the successful UPC pastors of today. They will love you and treat you with respect but in the back of their mind they are always trying to move you toward conforming to their standards of holiness. I heard a very well known UPC speaker say last year that, "you haven't truly converted them until they think you are right and everybody else is wrong." This man went through great detail to teach the pastor's attending the conference that they basically had to fool people into staying around long enough to start liking their church and then you can start working on them to conform. Sounds deceitful to me.

2) I guess I do fail to understand your concept of coming into covenant and staying in covenant. We are very far apart. I depend on Christ and his saving work at the cross for my salvation, justification, sanctification, and ultimately my glorification. I was not taught this growing up and I maintain that I was not taught the gospel. I tried for years to find God in the UPC and could not do it. I did everything I was taught but I couldn't fake it anymore.

3, 4, and 5) I do not judge a movement by certain men who mess up. However, I do believe that the movement has problems from the very foundation. There is a difference in having issues or typical problems that steam from imperfect men and problems that can't be avoided because the foundation is wrong to begin with.

What is the foundation of the UPC? Is it not Acts 2:38 and new birth by the process of following three steps? Does the UPC not interpret the rest of the bible through the lens of Acts 2:38?

If a person has repented and been baptized yet hasn't spoke in tongues they are not born again according to UPC doctrine.

Every time I mention a verse about salvation that is not from Acts I have UPC folks tell me that the epistles are only for those who are already saved.

So now we have a whole different way of interpreting the bible and a whole movement based on a doctrine that deemphasizes the need for Christ and total dependence on Him and focus on what WE do instead of what Christ does.

As far as a change after water baptism. No, none that I can tell because I was a heathen before and after my baptism. I didn't serve God. I didn't know what the gospel was. All I knew was that I needed to check it off my list in order to be saved.

[LUKE2447]

1) I have read most of David Bernard's books. Remember, I grew up UPC and believed it all. David Bernard holds to teaching traditional standards and UPC doctrine in a love based way. This is typical of the successful UPC pastors of today. They will love you and treat you with respect but in the back of their mind they are always trying to move you toward conforming to their standards of holiness. I heard a very well known UPC speaker say last year that, "you haven't truly converted them until they think you are right and everybody else is wrong." This man went through great detail to teach the pastor's attending the conference that they basically had to fool people into staying around long enough to start liking their church and then you can start working on them to conform. Sounds deceitful to me.

2) I guess I do fail to understand your concept of coming into covenant and staying in covenant. We are very far apart. I depend on Christ and his saving work at the cross for my salvation, justification, sanctification, and ultimately my glorification. I was not taught this growing up and I maintain that I was not taught the gospel. I tried for years to find God in the UPC and could not do it. I did everything I was taught but I couldn't fake it anymore.

3, 4, and 5) I do not judge a movement by certain men who mess up. However, I do believe that the movement has problems from the very foundation. There is a difference in having issues or typical problems that steam from imperfect men and problems that can't be avoided because the foundation is wrong to begin with.

What is the foundation of the UPC? Is it not Acts 2:38 and new birth by the process of following three steps? Does the UPC not interpret the rest of the bible through the lens of Acts 2:38?

If a person has repented and been baptized yet hasn't spoke in tongues they are not born again according to UPC doctrine.

Every time I mention a verse about salvation that is not from Acts I have UPC folks tell me that the epistles are only for those who are already saved.

So now we have a whole different way of interpreting the bible and a whole movement based on a doctrine that deemphasizes the need for Christ and total dependence on Him and focus on what WE do instead of what Christ does.

As far as a change after water baptism. No, none that I can tell because I was a heathen before and after my baptism. I didn't serve God. I didn't know what the gospel was. All I knew was that I needed to check it off my list in order to be saved.


Understand your points. Thanks for sharing!

Acts 2:38 is the foundation and a very powerful one. It only defines the soteriology of the movement not all of the movement. Yes, they are not born again based on the clear teaching of the expectations of the apostles which cannot be denied. They did expect something. The language they employ and many other aspects of Acts clearly show that mental assent to "knowledge" was not receiving the HS. Now how does receiving the HS relate to it all...... That's for you to seek God about. One thign is clear they expected something how that fits in.... again is up to you to search out.

Not sure why anyone pointing to the epistles would limit salvation to only Acts. True most of the epistles deals with issues of believers and not necessarily "initial" salvation or coming into the covenant but it does not negate it either. Usually many of these issues are dealt with poorly because of poor teaching and education. Not that it is not available but many preachers never went to formal education at all and lack structure in their studies etc... Thus you get what you got possibly.

I did not depend upon any preacher to teach me. I studied for myself virtually everything I could get my hands on. That includes all the major religions of Christianity. Mormon, JW's, Evangelical, RC, etc... Then I broke that down and studied all the views in the protestant world etc... It took many years and hours everyday. Guess what in the end you still have much to learn. You see good arguments and bad all the time out of them all.

To say they deemphasize teh need for Christ IMO is simply not true. If you mean in the way many Baptist teach it... Yes, as much of what they teach is very poor doctrine taken out o context and pretty much deny the words of Christ and the rest of the Bible for abused scriptures of Paul. Christ is the center! Salvation is by grace through faith (proper response) but that is by proper defintion works with Christ in view in which he leads and is the focus. Your eternal destiny in the end as a "christian" will be based on your works. you won't find mental assent "faith only" teaching anywhere near shown in that manner.

Just like anything else in the life of the Christian your baptism was only as good as your faith and depth of repentance toward God. Either he changed you or not. You either wanted to life for him or not. Salvation is about relationship. Baptism is essential but so is doing as he commanded. Obviously your ground was not strong with his seed at the time and thus not committed. As you did not follow what he said either as you are his friend "IF" you do what he commands. He will give back as much as you put out. It is a sum game. All or nothing! When you have given your all he will pick you up the rest of the way. The problem with most people is that what we think is our "all" is a pathetic illusion. It's a poor perspective and our perception is skewed. Study the words of Christ and learn to truly read Paul not in the Reformed trash they right but understand what true faithfulness is. Study the real meaning and context of faith/trust. When it comes down to it either we are vessel for him to use at will or we hold back for personal pleasure of the flesh. We see the truth but we are really nor willing to experience the truth of "all" and truly set apart. A lot of lip service and self degenerating of the gospel to make us feel better that we are ok.... you now everyone else that looks spiritual does this and life is good... ah that must be God's blessing. Most of the time it is not. We must become bankrupt for him. It literally is all his and you have nothing. Is baptism was simply a check off the list then is was not baptism and stepping into covenant with having weighed the costs.