Has Jon Suber embraced the One Step Doctrine?

[Weary Pilgrim]

I noticed that Suber's church website has a statement of faith that sounds like a one stepper. I thought that might be shocking to his many fans. Of course it could be the statement from when it was under the previous pastor but I can't imagine that pastor giving the church to someone doctrinally different than himself.

Here is the church website;

http://faithtabernacleshreveport.org/

[soldoutochrist]

I noticed that Suber's church website has a statement of faith that sounds like a one stepper. I thought that might be shocking to his many fans. Of course it could be the statement from when it was under the previous pastor but I can't imagine that pastor giving the church to someone doctrinally different than himself.

Here is the church website;

http://faithtabernacleshreveport.org/

…all believers should be buried with Christ Jesus in the waters of baptism (Acts 2:38, Rom. 6:3-5, Matt. 28:19).

…that the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit of God gives the utterance is an endowment of power given to the believer for sanctification and evangelism (Acts 1:8, 2:1-4, 19:1-2).

[Rhoni]

Don't start this ...again. Bro. Jon Suber has not changed.

Get a life.

Blessings, Rhoni

[TRFrance]

Don't start this ...again. Bro. Jon Suber has not changed.

Get a life.

Blessings, Rhoni
Gee.. kinda harsh, aren't we?
I think it's a fair question to ask.

[tv1a]

People always look for an excuse to tear down. Just wait until he begins to wears jeans and a t-shirt on Sunday Morning.

Don't start this ...again. Bro. Jon Suber has not changed.

Get a life.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Sam]

Gee.. kinda harsh, aren't we?
I think it's a fair question to ask.

Careful,
We can become a heresy hunter like Torquemada Hanegraff and suspect everybody and trust nobody.

[Rhoni]

Gee.. kinda harsh, aren't we?
I think it's a fair question to ask.

TR,

You might think so but this has been visited and revisited and I think we need to think on whatsoever things are true, holy, of a good report, if there be any virtue, if there be any praise...think on these things.

In Jesus name.

[Jermyn Davidson]

People always look for an excuse to tear down. Just wait until he begins to wears jeans and a t-shirt on Sunday Morning.

I think it is a fair question when you (or your website) makes statements to make people wonder where you stand.


The burden of clarity rests with the speaker, not the listener (or reader in this case).

[Rhoni]

I think it is a fair question when you (or your website) makes statements to make people wonder where you stand.


The burden of clarity rests with the speaker, not the listener (or reader in this case).

Any well-seasoned Pastor knows that when you take a new church you have to give the church time to adjust to you before making any changes. Let him have the privacy he needs to shape a ministry there without all the judgements and questions. Pray for the Pastor and his congregation but leave this off of the public forum.

Thank you.

[tv1a]

The burden of proof should lie with the person who has so much time on their hands they have to look for controversies. That is why church websites should remove their doctrinal statements from their websites. Nobody but the insiders care what your doctrinal statement is. Can't recollect one person being saved because of a doctrinal statement. Can't recall a testimony of a person who was scrolling through a web site and read the doctrinal statement and said, "Yup, That's the church I want to attend."

I think it is a fair question when you (or your website) makes statements to make people wonder where you stand.


The burden of clarity rests with the speaker, not the listener (or reader in this case).

[tv1a]

You know that isn't going to happen with the eat your own mentality.

Any well-seasoned Pastor knows that when you take a new church you have to give the church time to adjust to you before making any changes. Let him have the privacy he needs to shape a ministry there without all the judgements and questions. Pray for the Pastor and his congregation but leave this off of the public forum.

Thank you.

[MissBrattified]

I like the "We Believe" statement. Is there something specific in it that you object to, WearyPilgrim?

[TRFrance]

TR,

You might think so but this has been visited and revisited and I think we need to think on whatsoever things are true, holy, of a good report, if there be any virtue, if there be any praise...think on these things.

In Jesus name.
Just because people might have questions about where he stands, that doesn't mean they are being negative, or trying to tear him down.
I think it is a fair question when you (or your website) makes statements to make people wonder where you stand.

The burden of clarity rests with the speaker, not the listener (or reader in this case).
I agree.
Suber is one of the most well known figures in Oneness Pentecost. If he did, for whatever reason, shift his position, its something that's obviously going to make people take notice.. and understandably so.

As for me, I'll just say reading his Articles of Faith on his website,it reads more like what you'd see from a 1-stepper church than a 3-stepper church. The man can describe his doctrinal positions however he chooses... but if he is indeed still 3-stepper, it's not worded in such a way that would clearly show that he is. Simple fact is, as long as his website is worded the way it is, it's going to make people wonder what side of the fence he is on.

[Sam]

Their summary of beliefs looks like good old Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal Holiness to me:

We Believe:

…in one God, revealed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Duet. 6:4, II Cor. 13:14, John 1:1).

…that our Lord Jesus Christ was the only begotten of the Father, and is truly God and truly man. He was born of the virgin Mary, lived a sinless life, died a vicarious and atoning death for the sins of the world, resurrected bodily for our justification, and now reigns in glory until all things be put under his feet (I Tim 3:16).

…in the absolute inspiration of the Holy Scriptures in their original autographs given by the Holy Spirit as He moved upon holy men of old. Furthermore, we believe that the Holy Bible accepted as Canon by the early Christian Church to be the only written Word of God (2 Pet 1:21).

…that man was made in the image of God and is by the reason of “the Fall” alienated from his creator. Apart from God’s grace he has no ability to attain relationship with God (Psa. 8, Eph. 2:8-9).

…in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, who died on the cross in our place, as the supreme sacrifice for sin, was buried in a tomb, but rose again the third day and reigns in glory interceding for us (I John 2:1).

...that justification is by grace through faith in the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:21-24).

…all believers should be buried with Christ Jesus in the waters of baptism (Acts 2:38, Rom. 6:3-5, Matt. 28:19).

…that the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit of God gives the utterance is an endowment of power given to the believer for sanctification and evangelism (Acts 1:8, 2:1-4, 19:1-2).

…that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are active in the church today (I Cor. 12:4-7).

…in the Five-Fold Ministry of Prophets, Apostles, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers, for the perfecting of the saints to do the work of God (Eph. 4:11-16).

…that the believer called by the name of Christ should depart from iniquity, allowing the Holy Spirit to conform us to the image of Christ (2 Tim 2:19, Rom. 8:29).

…in the literal second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, the resurrection of the dead, and triumph of God’s Kingdom over Satan (Acts l:9-11, Daniel 12:2; Revelation 22:1-7).

[nahkoe]

The burden of proof should lie with the person who has so much time on their hands they have to look for controversies. That is why church websites should remove their doctrinal statements from their websites. Nobody but the insiders care what your doctrinal statement is. Can't recollect one person being saved because of a doctrinal statement. Can't recall a testimony of a person who was scrolling through a web site and read the doctrinal statement and said, "Yup, That's the church I want to attend."

I *always* read the doctrinal statement when I'm looking for a new church...

Wait, that makes it sound like I look for a new church often. lol When I first walked into church, I'd looked at the website the night before and that was the first page I went to. After I left that church, I read websites looking for a church. There were a lot that I eliminated due to what the doctrinal statement said.

[tv1a]

I was booted off a conservative forum once because I refused to play their word games. I said I believed he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. I said I beleived that acts 2:38 was the culmination of the salvation experience. The borg wanted me to word it exactly the way they said it, but I wouldn't play their pithy little game. There is more than one way to word a doctrinal statement.

Just because people might have questions about where he stands, that doesn't mean they are being negative, or trying to tear him down.

I agree.
Suber is one of the most well known figures in Oneness Pentecost. If he did, for whatever reason, shift his position, its something that's obviously going to make people take notice.. and understandably so.

As for me, I'll just say reading his Articles of Faith on his website,it reads more like what you'd see from a 1-stepper church than a 3-stepper church. The man can describe his doctrinal positions however he chooses... but if he is indeed still 3-stepper, it's not worded in such a way that would clearly show that he is. Simple fact is, as long as his website is worded the way it is, it's going to make people wonder what side of the fence he is on.

[Jermyn Davidson]

The burden of proof should lie with the person who has so much time on their hands they have to look for controversies. That is why church websites should remove their doctrinal statements from their websites. Nobody but the insiders care what your doctrinal statement is. Can't recollect one person being saved because of a doctrinal statement. Can't recall a testimony of a person who was scrolling through a web site and read the doctrinal statement and said, "Yup, That's the church I want to attend."


If by continuing to post, I'm not respecting this Pastor and his new church, that's not my intention.

Please delete my post and "ding" me if I am out of line.

Church websites should not remove their doctrinal statements. There are folks, like me, who have hunted for a church to attend, found one online that I thought was Pentecostal only to find out they were Church of Christ.

It happens. If that church had been clearer about it's doctrinal statements and their affiliation, then I would not have wasted my gas.

If there is someone spending their time trying to find and instigate controversies, then they are wrong.

Clarity is the responsibility of the author.

[tv1a]

The website shouldn't be geared for church hoppers or out town visitors. A website should be geared to reaching the unsaved. The unsaved aren't going to give a flip what your doctrine is. If they feel the love of Jesus though the website, they will eat glass if they want what you have.

I *always* read the doctrinal statement when I'm looking for a new church...

Wait, that makes it sound like I look for a new church often. lol When I first walked into church, I'd looked at the website the night before and that was the first page I went to. After I left that church, I read websites looking for a church. There were a lot that I eliminated due to what the doctrinal statement said.

[Sam]

The basic fundamental doctrine of this organization shall be the Bible standard of full salvation, which is repentance, baptism in water by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the initial sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.

We shall endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit until we all come into the unity of the faith, at the same time admonishing all the brethren that they shall not contend for their different views to the disunity of the body.

[Sarah]

The burden of proof should lie with the person who has so much time on their hands they have to look for controversies. That is why church websites should remove their doctrinal statements from their websites. Nobody but the insiders care what your doctrinal statement is. Can't recollect one person being saved because of a doctrinal statement. Can't recall a testimony of a person who was scrolling through a web site and read the doctrinal statement and said, "Yup, That's the church I want to attend."


No, but I just might be scrolling through a website and say that's one I want to stay clear of!

[Jermyn Davidson]

Their summary of beliefs looks like good old Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal Holiness to me:

We Believe:

…in one God, revealed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Duet. 6:4, II Cor. 13:14, John 1:1).

…that our Lord Jesus Christ was the only begotten of the Father, and is truly God and truly man. He was born of the virgin Mary, lived a sinless life, died a vicarious and atoning death for the sins of the world, resurrected bodily for our justification, and now reigns in glory until all things be put under his feet (I Tim 3:16).

…in the absolute inspiration of the Holy Scriptures in their original autographs given by the Holy Spirit as He moved upon holy men of old. Furthermore, we believe that the Holy Bible accepted as Canon by the early Christian Church to be the only written Word of God (2 Pet 1:21).

…that man was made in the image of God and is by the reason of “the Fall” alienated from his creator. Apart from God’s grace he has no ability to attain relationship with God (Psa. 8, Eph. 2:8-9).

…in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, who died on the cross in our place, as the supreme sacrifice for sin, was buried in a tomb, but rose again the third day and reigns in glory interceding for us (I John 2:1).

...that justification is by grace through faith in the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:21-24).

…all believers should be buried with Christ Jesus in the waters of baptism (Acts 2:38, Rom. 6:3-5, Matt. 28:19).

…that the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit of God gives the utterance is an endowment of power given to the believer for sanctification and evangelism (Acts 1:8, 2:1-4, 19:1-2).

…that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are active in the church today (I Cor. 12:4-7).

…in the Five-Fold Ministry of Prophets, Apostles, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers, for the perfecting of the saints to do the work of God (Eph. 4:11-16).

…that the believer called by the name of Christ should depart from iniquity, allowing the Holy Spirit to conform us to the image of Christ (2 Tim 2:19, Rom. 8:29).

…in the literal second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, the resurrection of the dead, and triumph of God’s Kingdom over Satan (Acts l:9-11, Daniel 12:2; Revelation 22:1-7).



If I did not know of this man, I'd say that he was not UPCI, because of the bolded.

"Justification" isn't that another way of saying, "you're saved"?

This is how I believe, but I KNOW that THIS IS NOT where most of the UPCI draws their "line" for salvation.

Or can one be "justified" and still go to hell upon death?

[CC1]

just because people might have questions about where he stands, that doesn't mean they are being negative, or trying to tear him down.

I agree.
Suber is one of the most well known figures in oneness pentecost. If he did, for whatever reason, shift his position, its something that's obviously going to make people take notice.. And understandably so.

As for me, i'll just say reading his articles of faith on his website,it reads more like what you'd see from a 1-stepper church than a 3-stepper church. The man can describe his doctrinal positions however he chooses... But if he is indeed still 3-stepper, it's not worded in such a way that would clearly show that he is. Simple fact is, as long as his website is worded the way it is, it's going to make people wonder what side of the fence he is on.

ditto

[TRFrance]

Well, I'll just speak plainly here. I don't care who gets mad.

From what I've observed, 1- steppers tend to be more vague in their doctrinal statements than 3-steppers.... and 1-steppers tend to get irritated and/or defensive moreso than 3-steppers, when asked to clarify what they really mean by a particular part of their doctrinal statement.

I'm sure there are multiple reasons for that. But I'll just leave it at that for now.
Just my observation.

[CC1]

Well, I'll just speak plainly here. I don't care who gets mad.

From what I've observed, 1- steppers tend to be more vague in their doctrinal statements than 3-steppers.... and 1-steppers tend to get irritated and/or defensive moreso than 3-steppers, when asked to clarify what they really mean by a particular part of their doctrinal statement.

I'm sure there are multiple reasons for that. But I'll just leave it at that for now.
Just my observation.

Can you point out one instance where a 1 stepper has gotten irritated and/or defensive moreso than 3 steppers?

The only people I know of that get defensive over a vague statement that appears to be 1 stepper are those that are actually 3 steppers but trying to put forth a vague statement of faith that is as inclusive as possible so as not to run off possible visitors before they even darken the doors of the church.

Why in the world would a true one stepper be defensive over their SOF?

[tv1a]

My initial question is are you planning to visit Shreveport soon?

Your posts brings up serious warning flags. Contrary to popular belief, there is more to the Bible than Acts 2:38. There are people who don't get salvation right, but they are on target on holy living, being fruitful christians, etc. We greatly do the body of Christ a disservice by discounting other denominations. I go to a Church of Christ college for my bachelor's degree. No one could pay me to attend an upci Bible college, truth or no truth. While I haven't change my doctrinal beliefs, my walk with God has been dramatically changed for the better by reading books from John Stott, CS Lewis, and from getting a fresh perspective from another view.

Your post exposed the fact many believe truth to be exclusive. Truth by definition is universal. John 3:16 is universal in any denomination. If truth is not universal, than it ceases to be truth. That's why I can visit a methodist church, go to a christmas mass at a catholic church, worship at World Harvest Church, pray at the nation's capitol with thousands of other people. We may have a key peice of the puzzle, but it isn't the only piece.

If by continuing to post, I'm not respecting this Pastor and his new church, that's not my intention.

Please delete my post and "ding" me if I am out of line.

Church websites should not remove their doctrinal statements. There are folks, like me, who have hunted for a church to attend, found one online that I thought was Pentecostal only to find out they were Church of Christ.

It happens. If that church had been clearer about it's doctrinal statements and their affiliation, then I would not have wasted my gas.

If there is someone spending their time trying to find and instigate controversies, then they are wrong.

Clarity is the responsibility of the author.

[Sam]

My initial question is are you planning to visit Shreveport soon?
...
.

Years ago there was a large UPC in Shreveport pastored by Bro. Jack Moore.
Is that church still there and is it UPC?

[Sam]

Is this an acceptable statement of faith?
http://jesus-messiah.com/html/statement.html

[tv1a]

You are a saint, not a sinner. Point being a sinner cares less what a doctrinal statement is than we care to admit.
No, but I just might be scrolling through a website and say that's one I want to stay clear of!

[nahkoe]

The website shouldn't be geared for church hoppers or out town visitors. A website should be geared to reaching the unsaved. The unsaved aren't going to give a flip what your doctrine is. If they feel the love of Jesus though the website, they will eat glass if they want what you have.

Ok, let's pretend this is fair. I'm a single mom with 4 kids. Going to church at all is a nightmare. I'm also desperate to be fed while at church. Ok. That's two strikes against visiting church after church just to find one that has a doctrine I can agree with.

FWIW, I'm not a church hopper. I don't post about the reason I left the church I did, because it doesn't really matter. Some people here go to churches like that and they're happy, some like me, have left churches like that because they weren't going to be ok there.

I did finally find a church, online, and moved 2000 miles to attend it. Crazy, I know, but I wouldn't change it for anything.

A website reaching the unsaved is an interesting idea. I'm not so sure it'd work very well, but it's interesting all the same. You do realize that the doctrinal statement is usually hidden pretty well on most church sites, right? And, you do realize that most people looking at a church website didn't stumble on it, they're looking for it, and the sort of people who are looking for a church online are probably going to be the people to whom a doctrinal statement does matter.

If they feel the love of Jesus though the website, they will eat glass if they want what you have.

Or move 2000 miles to attend the church... But that wasn't anything about the church website, it was about the people in the church who I met and got to know.

[Steve Epley]

Years ago there was a large UPC in Shreveport pastored by Bro. Jack Moore.
Is that church still there and is it UPC?

Jack Moore was influenced by the 'latter rain movement' they have not been UPC for decades it is a Charismatic church today.

[tv1a]

What a salvo!!!!

Although gr pretty well lost me about halfway through his statement of faith. I have to give the devil his due. At the end of all that mess he has a link to get you to convert to messianic judiasm.

Is this an acceptable statement of faith?
http://jesus-messiah.com/html/statement.html

[Jermyn Davidson]

My initial question is are you planning to visit Shreveport soon?


(1)
Your posts brings up serious warning flags. Contrary to popular belief, there is more to the Bible than Acts 2:38.
(2)
There are people who don't get salvation right, but they are on target on holy living, being fruitful christians, etc. We greatly do the body of Christ a disservice by discounting other denominations. I go to a Church of Christ college for my bachelor's degree. No one could pay me to attend an upci Bible college, truth or no truth. While I haven't change my doctrinal beliefs, my walk with God has been dramatically changed for the better by reading books from John Stott, CS Lewis, and from getting a fresh perspective from another view.

(3)
Your post exposed the fact many believe truth to be exclusive. Truth by definition is universal. John 3:16 is universal in any denomination. If truth is not universal, than it ceases to be truth. That's why I can visit a methodist church, go to a christmas mass at a catholic church, worship at World Harvest Church, pray at the nation's capitol with thousands of other people.

(4)
We may have a key peice of the puzzle, but it isn't the only piece.


(1)
Wow! Next I'll be said to be sounding like an ultra con-- and that would just be funny!!!

(2)
I did not discount their denomination. However, a "Church of Christ" is not the place where I believe the Lord would send me to seek His face. Neither do I have any desire at all to attend their services, from the little bit I do know about them. I didn't say they were unsaved, but I guess we can learn a lot from those clean living and holy LDS folks too. Hey most JW's are clean living, maybe I can learn from them too!

See the fallacy in your argument? Which is why I stand by my assertion: it is better for a church to outline their doctrinal views so as to not leave any question to what they believe.

Had the church in question done so, this thread would not exist.

(3)
I disagree with your assertion. I know that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is by nature, exclusive and down right offensive.

(4)
I agree with you, but I usually avoid the Catholics, but that's just me.

Personally, the TRUTH is Repentance, water baptism by immersion in the NAME of JESUS CHRIST, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost as promised to all believers. This TRUTH is Biblical and historically documented to be the same TRUTH of the church fathers.

And I also believe there are those who may not have every aspect of this TRUTH who are still saved.

But my whole gist is this: if one is clear, then situations like this are avoided all together!

[tv1a]

Do you believe the only preachers who can feed you have to believe the same things you do?

I don't believe in catholicism, but I bought a book by Pope John Paul that challenged me to more of a witness. I bought a book about a lady who gave up a high class lifestyle to become a nun in one of the worst prisons in Mexico. Our doctrinal statements are miles apart, but hey ministered to me. If it were my choice between going to a church whose doctrinal statement is different than mine and staying home, I'd go to church. I am strong enough in my convictions that the differences won't sway me.

We've visited the Methodist church up the block from our house when we couldn't get to our church due to inclimate weather. God moves in a methodist church as well as in a pentecostal church.

Ok, let's pretend this is fair. I'm a single mom with 4 kids. Going to church at all is a nightmare. I'm also desperate to be fed while at church. Ok. That's two strikes against visiting church after church just to find one that has a doctrine I can agree with.

FWIW, I'm not a church hopper. I don't post about the reason I left the church I did, because it doesn't really matter. Some people here go to churches like that and they're happy, some like me, have left churches like that because they weren't going to be ok there.

I did finally find a church, online, and moved 2000 miles to attend it. Crazy, I know, but I wouldn't change it for anything.

A website reaching the unsaved is an interesting idea. I'm not so sure it'd work very well, but it's interesting all the same. You do realize that the doctrinal statement is usually hidden pretty well on most church sites, right? And, you do realize that most people looking at a church website didn't stumble on it, they're looking for it, and the sort of people who are looking for a church online are probably going to be the people to whom a doctrinal statement does matter.



Or move 2000 miles to attend the church... But that wasn't anything about the church website, it was about the people in the church who I met and got to know.

[TRFrance]

Can you point out one instance where a 1 stepper has gotten irritated and/or defensive moreso than 3 steppers?

The only people I know of that get defensive over a vague statement that appears to be 1 stepper are those that are actually 3 steppers but trying to put forth a vague statement of faith that is as inclusive as possible so as not to run off possible visitors before they even darken the doors of the church.

Why in the world would a true one stepper be defensive over their SOF?
No, I don't wish to point out particular examples.
However, I stand behind my statement/assertion 110%, based on what I've observed multiple times both on this forum, and away from it.

Have a nice night.

[AbundantGrace]

I noticed that Suber's church website has a statement of faith that sounds like a one stepper. I thought that might be shocking to his many fans. Of course it could be the statement from when it was under the previous pastor but I can't imagine that pastor giving the church to someone doctrinally different than himself.

Here is the church website;

http://faithtabernacleshreveport.org/

:crazywalls :nobodycares :lalala

Not Again?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Do you believe the only preachers who can feed you have to believe the same things you do?




No. But I want to know a little bit about their background, i.e. beliefs before I allow myself to be influenced by whatever it is they have to say.

satan is so deceptive. Sister/Brother, we have to be careful as to who we let speak into our lives. satan did not come to Eve with bold lies and he won't come to us with bold lies either.

Please, be careful. Not every "christian" is our brother or sister.
The Bible says there are those who will be deceived and will deceive others.

[tv1a]

Maybe I'm not making myself clear. No man cometh untio the Father, but by me is an universal truth. Acts 2:38 is an universal truth. No demoniation has a monopoly on truth. There is more to truth than acts 2:38. My KJV, NLT, NIV, The Message, BLT versions all have 66 books in them. I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bath water because someone's doctrinal statement looks funny to me.

(1)
Wow! Next I'll be said to be sounding like an ultra con-- and that would just be funny!!!

Personally, the TRUTH is Repentance, water baptism by immersion in the NAME of JESUS CHRIST, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost as promised to all believers. This TRUTH is Biblical and historically documented to be the same TRUTH of the church fathers.

And I also believe there are those who may not have every aspect of this TRUTH who are still saved.

But my whole gist is this: if one is clear, then situations like this are avoided all together!

[CC1]

No, I don't wish to point out particular examples.
However, I stand behind my statement/assertion 110%, based on what I've observed multiple times both on this forum, and away from it.

Have a nice night.

Your posts usually make a lot of sense but I am still puzzled by your assertion here.

Give me one logical reasin a 1 stepper would have to be irritated or defensive about their statement of faith? That makes no sense and I have NEVER seen it.

I would expect both 3 steppers and 1 steppers to be content with their statements of faith since it reflects what they actually believe.

The only ones who should not be content are ones who might camaflague their true beliefs in some vague statement.

[nahkoe]

Do you believe the only preachers who can feed you have to believe the same things you do?

I don't believe in catholicism, but I bought a book by Pope John Paul that challenged me to more of a witness. I bought a book about a lady who gave up a high class lifestyle to become a nun in one of the worst prisons in Mexico. Our doctrinal statements are miles apart, but hey ministered to me. If it were my choice between going to a church whose doctrinal statement is different than mine and staying home, I'd go to church. I am strong enough in my convictions that the differences won't sway me.

We've visited the Methodist church up the block from our house when we couldn't get to our church due to inclimate weather. God moves in a methodist church as well as in a pentecostal church.

I hear ya. God is God no matter where He is. But there are some things I need right now, and I'm not willing to settle *right now*. I'm not strong enough in my convictions at this time that I wouldn't be swayed. And, I have an awful lot to lose if I were to go back to my past. I'm not willing to risk it.

And no, my pastor doesn't believe exactly like I believe. As a matter of fact, he challenges my beliefs frequently. But I trust him, and I know that what he's teaching is true, and I know that I'm finding my footing and that a foundation is being established. Those are the things I desperately need.

[TRFrance]

Ok, let's pretend this is fair. I'm a single mom with 4 kids. Going to church at all is a nightmare. I'm also desperate to be fed while at church. Ok. That's two strikes against visiting church after church just to find one that has a doctrine I can agree with.

FWIW, I'm not a church hopper. I don't post about the reason I left the church I did, because it doesn't really matter. Some people here go to churches like that and they're happy, some like me, have left churches like that because they weren't going to be ok there.

I did finally find a church, online, and moved 2000 miles to attend it. Crazy, I know, but I wouldn't change it for anything.

A website reaching the unsaved is an interesting idea. I'm not so sure it'd work very well, but it's interesting all the same. You do realize that the doctrinal statement is usually hidden pretty well on most church sites, right? And, you do realize that most people looking at a church website didn't stumble on it, they're looking for it, and the sort of people who are looking for a church online are probably going to be the people to whom a doctrinal statement does matter.

Good post.
And when someone is relocating to a new city or state, they will often look at a church's website (and statement of faith) to see if that's a church they and/or their family might like to to attend.
Those people are not "church hoppers".

Not to mention that I've seen many Apostolics over the years who were away from home on business for a few days, or a weekend, and wanted to look up a church to go to that Sunday while they're in town. Most Apostolics I know wouldn't want to go to a church on Sunday morning and then realize the church is not Apostolic.

Again, these people are not church hoppers, and they generally appreciate it when a church has a clear statement of faith on their website.

[tv1a]

We should look inside our ranks as well. There is a lot of bovine excrement being passed off as gospel truth but is so far removed from the gospel of Jesus Christ. We don't mind being influneced by the cultish practice of legalism, but we have a problem with how someone presents a doctrinal statement?

No. But I want to know a little bit about their background, i.e. beliefs before I allow myself to be influenced by whatever it is they have to say.

satan is so deceptive. Sister/Brother, we have to be careful as to who we let speak into our lives. satan did not come to Eve with bold lies and he won't come to us with bold lies either.

Please, be careful. Not every "christian" is our brother or sister.
The Bible says there are those who will be deceived and will deceive others.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bath water because someone's doctrinal statement looks funny to me.


Neither am I. I don't think the author of this thread would either.

I am a One-Stepper.

His Doctrinal Statement looks like one of a church that is not UPCI as there are very few "One-Stepper" churches in that organization.

I think that was the point of the thread-- not to discount him, his church, or anyone else. His website causes an informed OP to ask these type of questions.

[Sherri]

Neither am I. I don't think the author of this thread would either.

I am a One-Stepper.

His Doctrinal Statement looks like one of a church that is not UPCI as there are very few "One-Stepper" churches in that organization.

I think that was the point of the thread-- not to discount him, his church, or anyone else. His website causes an informed OP to ask these type of questions.

Jonathan Suber is not UPCI, is he? I'm confused.

[nahkoe]

Maybe I'm not making myself clear. No man cometh untio the Father, but by me is an universal truth. Acts 2:38 is an universal truth. No demoniation has a monopoly on truth. There is more to truth than acts 2:38. My KJV, NLT, NIV, The Message, BLT versions all have 66 books in them. I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bath water because someone's doctrinal statement looks funny to me.

You know, I did get quite a bit out of the Mormon church I attended for awhile. Maybe you're onto something here. What about this church: http://goldenthreadgrove.pbwiki.com/

FWIW, I am sure those having an issue with the doctrinal statement posted would take issue with the statement of belief from the church I attend.

[tv1a]

I gues when given the opportunity, I hope my website will scare the religious people away. lol
If you are coming from another church, you may as well keep going. You are not going to like at our church. There's a upci church down the road who won't mind having them. Their church is stocked with our old disgruntled saints anyway. One more ain't gonna hurt 'em.


Good post.
And when someone is relocating to a new city or state, they will often look at a church's website (and statement of faith) to see if that's a church they and/or their family might like to to attend.
Those people are not "church hoppers".

Not to mention that I've seen many Apostolics over the years who were away from home on business for a few days, or a weekend, and wanted to look up a church to go to that Sunday while they're in town. Most Apostolics I know wouldn't want to go to a church on Sunday morning and then realize the church is not Apostolic.

Again, these people are not church hoppers, and they generally appreciate it when a church has a clear statement of faith on their website.

[CC1]

Jonathan Suber is not UPCI, is he? I'm confused.

He was very much UPC until a couple of years ago. Left the UPC at the height of his popularity. Was a major Campmeeting speaker and evangelist.

Not the usual pastor of a church that leaves but an evangelist doing quite well.

As far as everybody knows his doctrine did not change though and that is why the SOF on the website of the church he took over the pastorate of is so interesting.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Jonathan Suber is not UPCI, is he? I'm confused.

Ask Rhoni, she knows the church/Pastor situation.

[Sherri]

He was very much UPC until a couple of years ago. Left the UPC at the height of his popularity. Was a major Campmeeting speaker and evangelist.

Not the usual pastor of a churc that leaves but an evangelist doing quite well.

As far as everybody knows his doctrine did not change though and that is why the SOF on the website of the church he took over the pastorate of is so interesting.It sounds a lot like our Statement of Faith, except ours does say that we baptize in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[CC1]

Ask Rhoni, she knows the church/Pastor situation.

And appears EXTREMELY defensive about it!!!!!

Rhoni appears to have adopted the Barak Obama position regarding any questions. They are just not allowed.

[Jermyn Davidson]

We should look inside our ranks as well. There is a lot of bovine excrement being passed off as gospel truth but is so far removed from the gospel of Jesus Christ. We don't mind being influneced by the cultish practice of legalism, but we have a problem with how someone presents a doctrinal statement?

Most folks I know mind being influenced by the cultish practice of legalism. Most folks I know don't think that they're beliefs are cultish or legalistic.

I have no problem with his doctrinal statement. I believe his doctrinal statement to be Biblical.

The thread is about whether this Pastor is a "One-Stepper" now-- insinuating that until very recently, he was not a "One-Stepper".

The reason for the question was based off of his church's website.

[TRFrance]

Your posts usually make a lot of sense but I am still puzzled by your assertion here.

Give me one logical reason a 1 stepper would have to be irritated or defensive about their statement of faith? That makes no sense and I have NEVER seen it.

I would expect both 3 steppers and 1 steppers to be content with their statements of faith since it reflects what they actually believe.

The only ones who should not be content are ones who might camouflage their true beliefs in some vague statement.
1... Just because you've never seen it... why does that even matter? The fact is, I've seen it. That's my point.
2... Just because YOU don't see the logic behind it, doesn't mean it doesn't make any sense. As a matter of fact, based on certain factors involved, it makes perfect sense that some would act this way... right or wrong.

In one particular case, I knew one of the pastors had come from a 3-stepper background, but had gradually drifted toward the 1-step position. He left his doctrinal position on salvation very vague on his website, evidently because he knew that those who knew him in his 3-stepper days would take issue with his new position. Whenever he was asked about his position he would always seem to be a bit evasive, or even a bit defensive.

I have known of more than a few preachers who have done this [former 3-steppers turned 1-step], in order to remain "under the radar" so to speak, and away from the attention and questions from 3-step ministers and saints they've known for years.

The only ones who should not be content are ones who might camouflage their true beliefs in some vague statement.
Well, thats exactly what I'm talking about.. 1-steppers who camouflage their true beliefs,but get defensive when questioned about the way they vaguely word certain things.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I say again:

Clarity is the burden of the communicator.

[Sister Alvear]

Should we not all be kind?

I didn´t sleep because of chest pains and being at ER all night. I was praying the whole time for my enemies not my friends...We are only his disciple if we can be kind to our enemies....
I think we can all make a statement of faith and be nice about it.

[TRFrance]

I say again:

Clarity is the burden of the communicator.
I agree.
However, some seem to believe it's just fine to make the Statement of Faith a bit vague (intentionally) so as not to "scare anyone off" with any of "that doctrinal stuff".

...But in that case why even have a S.O.F then, if they're gonna be hiding what they believe? Better to not even have one, if that's the way they think. Isn't the idea of a Statement of Faith to state what you believe?

Just seems inherently contradictory to me...

[Scott Hutchinson]

To me the statement of faith doesn't necessarily embrace the PCI view.It's just a basic statement of faith.
When someone leaves an org. alot of times people assume things,to some if you're outside of the org. you're outside of the faith.

[CC1]

1... Just because you've never seen it... why does that even matter? The fact is, I've seen it. That's my point.
2... Just because YOU don't see the logic behind it, doesn't mean it doesn't make any sense. As a matter of fact, based on certain factors involved, it makes perfect sense that some would act this way... right or wrong.

In one particular case, I knew one of the pastors had come from a 3-stepper background, but had gradually drifted toward the 1-step position. He left his doctrinal position on salvation very vague on his website, evidently because he knew that those who knew him in his 3-stepper days would take issue with his new position. Whenever he was asked about his position he would always seem to be a bit evasive, or even a bit defensive.

I have known of more than a few preachers who have done this [former 3-steppers turned 1-step], in order to remain "under the radar" so to speak, and away from the attention and questions from 3-step ministers and saints they've known for years.

Well, thats exactly what I'm talking about.. 1-steppers who camouflage their true beliefs,but get defensive when questioned about the way they vaguely word certain things.

Thanks for explaining what you meant. I can understand what you mean now. I personally have only been around 1 steppers that have no qualms about their beliefs so found it strange that you would think some would.

However your explanation makes sense. Those that had an apparent solid 3 stepper stance when UPC then after they have "gone charismatic" and left the standards appear with a SOF that appears 1 stepper might be sensitive to declaring that change if they fear losing friends or creating conflict within family, etc. Still hard for me to understand though because you believe what you believe and if you believe it should not have a problem stating it clearly.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I apologize if my last post sounded harsh,as it wasn't meant that way.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I apologize if my last post sounded harsh,as it wasn't meant that way.

Dude, not harsh in the least bit. How are ya? Would you like for me to fix you a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? I got milk too!

[Scott Hutchinson]

I like peanut butter and jelly alot,how am I ? it's kinda hard to explain. I'll say ok by faith.

[Pastor Keith]

I noticed that Suber's church website has a statement of faith that sounds like a one stepper. I thought that might be shocking to his many fans. Of course it could be the statement from when it was under the previous pastor but I can't imagine that pastor giving the church to someone doctrinally different than himself.

Here is the church website;

http://faithtabernacleshreveport.org/

Sounds good to me, how would think his statement of faith to be problematic?

[Weary Pilgrim]

Sounds good to me, how would think his statement of faith to be problematic?


I Didn't point it out as "Problematic", The wording is that of a one-stepper. Even those that are of the same persausion agree. I would venture to say that most would be interested in knowning exactly
where he stands.

......And not neccessarily just for the sake of arguing the differences in Doctrine.

[George]

This is off somewhat off subject, but did anybody notice the video gallery on Suber's church site? I thought it was really interesting that all three were of other churches. The Rock in Sacramento, CA, IBC in Indianapolis, IN, and Mark Condon's in Columbus, OH.

[CC1]

George,

Perhaps this church does not have a video ministry yet?

[triumphant1]

This is off somewhat off subject, but did anybody notice the video gallery on Suber's church site? I thought it was really interesting that all three were of other churches. The Rock in Sacramento, CA, IBC in Indianapolis, IN, and Mark Condon's in Columbus, OH.

Actually the truth of the matter was I brought this up to JS 4 weeks ago while fellowshipping with he and Steph in our hotel room while there preaching for him...

His exact words were, "I didn't know that site was still public. That whole website was just a trial run put together by a guy just showing me what he could do. We are not even going to use that domain name. I didn't know he went public with it for more than just a week."

To that I responded, "You really should get that guy to pull the site."

To that he responded, "I will, but we don't advertise that site anyway...when we get our real site we will obviously need to link that domain name to our real one."

This is clearly why you don't see anything on the calender of events on the site, why rock church is on the video page, and why there has been NO UPDATE to this site in 6 months....if you don't believe me just look at the "pastor's blog" link under the "pastoral leadership" link.

[CC1]

The pastor's blog made more sense than some I have read!

[LUKE2447]

What a salvo!!!!

Although gr pretty well lost me about halfway through his statement of faith. I have to give the devil his due. At the end of all that mess he has a link to get you to convert to messianic judiasm.



Reckhart is nowhere near Messianic Judaism!

He also has a few good points and many uhhh let's just say bad points! hehehehe

[triumphant1]

The pastor's blog made more sense than some I have read!

LOL!!!

[BoJangles]

Ok, let's pretend this is fair. I'm a single mom with 4 kids. Going to church at all is a nightmare. I'm also desperate to be fed while at church. Ok. That's two strikes against visiting church after church just to find one that has a doctrine I can agree with.

FWIW, I'm not a church hopper. I don't post about the reason I left the church I did, because it doesn't really matter. Some people here go to churches like that and they're happy, some like me, have left churches like that because they weren't going to be ok there.

I did finally find a church, online, and moved 2000 miles to attend it. Crazy, I know, but I wouldn't change it for anything.

A website reaching the unsaved is an interesting idea. I'm not so sure it'd work very well, but it's interesting all the same. You do realize that the doctrinal statement is usually hidden pretty well on most church sites, right? And, you do realize that most people looking at a church website didn't stumble on it, they're looking for it, and the sort of people who are looking for a church online are probably going to be the people to whom a doctrinal statement does matter.



Or move 2000 miles to attend the church... But that wasn't anything about the church website, it was about the people in the church who I met and got to know.
Wow, I am sure you have your reasons. But to uproot 4 children and taking them 2000 miles away just to change churches? :dunno

Seems a bit extreme imo.

[Steve Epley]

Wow, I am sure you have your reasons. But to uproot 4 children and taking them 2000 miles away just to change churches? :dunno

Seems a bit extreme imo.

MOving 2000 miles to get fed tells me they are very picky eaters and will not be satisfied with the meals served where they move. The probelm is the eater I say not the meal. 2,000 miles??????????????????????

[nahkoe]

Wow, I am sure you have your reasons. But to uproot 4 children and taking them 2000 miles away just to change churches? :dunno

Seems a bit extreme imo.

:) There were, obviously, more reasons why I moved.

Unfortunately, there weren't many roots where we were. This move is an improvement for us financially as well, and for myself for education and future career options. I have more roots now, 2.5 months after arriving here, than I did after almost 7 years in the area we moved from.

[nahkoe]

MOving 2000 miles to get fed tells me they are very picky eaters and will not be satisfied with the meals served where they move. The probelm is the eater I say not the meal. 2,000 miles??????????????????????

Brother, I have my reasons for being picky. A person in need of a specialist does not settle for the nearest general practitioner. I won't deny that the problem lies with me, not the churches where I was. I know there are good churches there that feed their congregations well. But I also know that I need to be where I am.

I've been through (and am still going through) the most devastating experience of my life since I've moved here. I know that I am here *because* of what was going to happen, this didn't happen because I moved. I looked my pastor's wife in the eye the other day and told her that if I had known everything, I would still have moved. I won't be leaving this church, this is my family, the first family I've ever truly had, and this is home.

[CC1]

Actually the truth of the matter was I brought this up to JS 4 weeks ago while fellowshipping with he and Steph in our hotel room while there preaching for him...

His exact words were, "I didn't know that site was still public. That whole website was just a trial run put together by a guy just showing me what he could do. We are not even going to use that domain name. I didn't know he went public with it for more than just a week."

To that I responded, "You really should get that guy to pull the site."

To that he responded, "I will, but we don't advertise that site anyway...when we get our real site we will obviously need to link that domain name to our real one."

This is clearly why you don't see anything on the calender of events on the site, why rock church is on the video page, and why there has been NO UPDATE to this site in 6 months....if you don't believe me just look at the "pastor's blog" link under the "pastoral leadership" link.


So did he agree with the statement of faith posted or disavow it?

[Apocrypha]

Jonathan Suber is not UPCI, is he? I'm confused.

He, like many others has joined the AWCF. He went a bit further than others since he is a actual member and not just a affiliate who networks with it. In the AWCF 95% of the folks use it as a chamber of commerce type thing for meetings where they can exchange business cards and stay in their own fellowship. Some go the extra step and actually ask for a licensing card.. but those are few and usually the true independendents who just want something bigger than themselves to not seem too lonely.

I met a ton of folks at the Bridge conference at Church of Champions here in Houston and heard the recent conference a few weeks ago here in Texas was a good networking opportunity for ministers (I introduced Bro. Bobby Stewart into the AWCF several years ago when I introduced him to Bishop Smith <I grew up with Bro. Stewart in the same church before his church became a daughter work> and Suber is the evangelism coordinator for the AWCF and that church that hosted it there is a affiliate aong with their apostolic fellowship). Its like a roll call of major churches that went independent, you hear alot of names of good men that just want friendship without the political bloodsport.

And when it comes to overseas connections the AWCF is like a monster, its huge... if you want to go international in your ministry forget UPC FMD.. its all about the AWCF conference in Evansville, you meet everyone and anyone whos Apostolic and get booked solid until the 7th seal (if you can afford your own airfare).

www.AWCF.org

[Sherri]

He, like many others has joined the AWCF. He went a bit further than others since he is a actual member and not just a affiliate who networks with it. In the AWCF 95% of the folks use it as a chamber of commerce type thing for meetings where they can exchange business cards and stay in their own fellowship. Some go the extra step and actually ask for a licensing card.. but those are few and usually the true independendents who just want something bigger than themselves to not seem too lonely.

I met a ton of folks at the Bridge conference at Church of Champions here in Houston and heard the recent conference a few weeks ago here in Texas was a good networking opportunity for ministers (I introduced Bro. Bobby Stewart into the AWCF several years ago when I introduced him to Bishop Smith <I grew up with Bro. Stewart in the same church before his church became a daughter work> and Suber is the evangelism coordinator for the AWCF and that church that hosted it there is a affiliate aong with their apostolic fellowship). Its like a roll call of major churches that went independent, you hear alot of names of good men that just want friendship without the political bloodsport.

And when it comes to overseas connections the AWCF is like a monster, its huge... if you want to go international in your ministry forget UPC FMD.. its all about the AWCF conference in Evansville, you meet everyone and anyone whos Apostolic and get booked solid until the 7th seal (if you can afford your own airfare).

www.AWCF.org

Bishop Samuel Smith - I think this is the same guy that used to pastor in Stewartsville, Indiana when I was just a little kid. We lived in southern Illinois but we were in an Indiana UPC section because there weren't enough UPC churches close to us in Illinois. Later we were put in an Illinois section. Anyway, I hadn't seen his picture or heard of him in years!!

[Apocrypha]

Bishop Samuel Smith - I think this is the same guy that used to pastor in Stewartsville, Indiana when I was just a little kid. We lived in southern Illinois but we were in an Indiana UPC section because there weren't enough UPC churches close to us in Illinois. Later we were put in an Illinois section. Anyway, I hadn't seen his picture or heard of him in years!!

He had pastored in Evansvile, IN for years and years, then just recently turned his church over to his son Luke Smith. Luke is a dorm buddy of mine from IBC and we every few weeks and see each other at the events.

He most likely is the same person, he was UPC for a long time.

[triumphant1]

So did he agree with the statement of faith posted or disavow it?

We didn't discuss the statement of faith so anything I would say on that would be conjecture on my part as far as the actual wording in that statment is concerned.

If anyone is really "concerned" about where he stands...the church office number is not unlisted...perhaps you can all give him a call and ask him personally instead of asking a bunch of people on here that have not talked with him about it and most likely don't even know him...

Besides, if he in fact has changed his view...he's a grown dang man and has that right.

Has anyone gone to the website and looked at the "pastor's blog"? If you will, it will explain many things concerning this particular web address....

[Steve Epley]

Bishop Samuel Smith - I think this is the same guy that used to pastor in Stewartsville, Indiana when I was just a little kid. We lived in southern Illinois but we were in an Indiana UPC section because there weren't enough UPC churches close to us in Illinois. Later we were put in an Illinois section. Anyway, I hadn't seen his picture or heard of him in years!!

The same.

[seguidordejesus]

Has anyone gone to the website and looked at the "pastor's blog"? If you will, it will explain many things concerning this particular web address....


:ursofunny

[triumphant1]

:ursofunny

Well....the pastor's blog on that website only has ONE WORD--BLAH!!!! And folks are up in the air about the statement of faith and the Rock Church videos!! ROTFL!!!

One more time....if you will visit the pastor's blog on the website you will see that this website was used as an example of what a particular person could do for Faith Tab....and not meant to be an official anything!

PLEASE GO to the "pastor's blog" on the website and post your opinions about the statements made there by Jonathan Suber!

[GraceAmazing]

He had pastored in Evansvile, IN for years and years, then just recently turned his church over to his son Luke Smith. Luke is a dorm buddy of mine from IBC and we every few weeks and see each other at the events.

He most likely is the same person, he was UPC for a long time.


You attended IBC? Um, so did I...I don't remember Luke Smith. I really enjoyed the Evansville conference. This was my first year to go and I thoroughly enjoyed myself!

[Apocrypha]

You attended IBC? Um, so did I...I don't remember Luke Smith. I really enjoyed the Evansville conference. This was my first year to go and I thoroughly enjoyed myself!

He went my first year of IBC in 1997. He stayed into his 2nd semester and then decided to return home and help his father. Josh Yohe, Edd Bickers, the McManus cousins (Jonathan / Robert Mcmanus), myself, and sometimes others like Stacey Jeter others would go down to Evansville to visit. It was a fun time and what turned me onto the AWCF when I got to listen to Bishop Smith explain how all the different groups got together to fellowship and talk about what they had in common, it really moved me compared to what I grew up around attitude-wise. At the time I still wanted to get licensed UPCI but after a few years of hearing about the politics from the pastors I worked under I decided to not join and then committed to the AWCF after their general convention in Winston-Salem, NC (2000 i think?).

[Apocrypha]

You attended IBC? Um, so did I...I don't remember Luke Smith. I really enjoyed the Evansville conference. This was my first year to go and I thoroughly enjoyed myself!

I was unable to make it this year to the conference, but I'll be going next year and maybe to the Phillipines on their trip to the Jesus Miracle Crusade in Manilla.. i always wanted to see a church of 60,000 people who fill a soccer stadium from 10am to 7pm every Sunday in waves.

They wanted me to help with the internal stuff like manning the registration and getting the pre-conference setup stuff done, but I just relocated to Houston and secular job didn't allow at the time.

What did you enjoy most about it?