Obama abortion ad

[Baron1710]

This is the ad I was refering to yesterday that I wanted to find the audio for so you could hear it, according to reports it is playing in about 7 states.

I still can't find the audio but here is the transcript. (The Baron on the audio is a cheap imitation of the real thing.)

"As a nurse practitioner with Planned Parenthood," says a woman's voice, "I know abortion is one of most difficult decisions a woman will ever make. I'm Val Baron. Let me tell you - if Roe v Wade is overturned, the lives and health of women will be put at risk. That's why this election is so important. John McCain's out of touch with women today. McCain wants to take away our right to choose. That's what women need to understand. That's how high the stakes are."

"As president, John McCain will make abortion illegal," says an announcer. "McCain says quote, 'I do not support Roe v. Wade. It should be overturned.' And listen to McCain's answer on Meet the Press."

"A constitutional amendment to ban all abortions," says the late great Tim Russert. "You're for that?"

"Yes, sir," says McCain.

"We can't let John McCain take away our right to choose," says Baron. "We can't let him take us back."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/obama-hits-radi.html

[Aquila]

John McCain can't overturn abortion law. And I assure you any justice he appoints, no matter how conservative, will overturn abortion decisions either. This is purely a manipulative tactic used by Republicans because they know how much we hate abortion.

All McCain's going to do is bleed the public trust by offering more corporate welfare, and grant deep tax cuts to international companies that want to take American jobs overseas thereby burning American workers and families. Then he'll take the tax benefit companies get for providing insurance and give it to individuals. Individuals will then be forced to purchase their personal health insurance policies on the open market. Most will not be able to afford it and many will be denied coverage due to pre-existing conditions.

...and abortions will still continue at roughly the present rate without so much as a hickup.

[Baron1710]

John McCain can't overturn abortion law. And I assure you any justice he appoints, no matter how conservative, will overturn abortion decisions either. This is purely a manipulative tactic used by Republicans because they know how much we hate abortion.

All McCain's going to do is bleed the public trust by offering more corporate welfare, and grant deep tax cuts to international companies that want to take American jobs overseas thereby burning American workers and families. Then he'll take the tax benefit companies get for providing insurance and give it to individuals. Individuals will then be forced to purchase their personal health insurance policies on the open market. Most will not be able to afford it and many will be denied coverage due to pre-existing conditions.

...and abortions will still continue at roughly the present rate without so much as a hickup.

HELLO MCFLY...(Knocking on your forehead) this is an OBAMA ad, not a McCain ad.

[Aquila]

My point still stands.

[AmazingGrace]

HELLO MCFLY...(Knocking on your forehead) this is an OBAMA ad, not a mcCain add.

I dont think he knows what his point is at this point in the game... meaning Chris LOL

[Baron1710]

My point still stands.

Your point is?? Obama is a liar? Because that is the only logical conclusion to your rant. Do you just post and forget to read what you are responding to?

Or is your reading comprehension lacking?

[Aquila]

McCain isn't going to do a single thing about abortion regardless of what he said on Meet the Press.

[Baron1710]

McCain isn't going to do a single thing about abortion regardless of what he said on Meet the Press.

Wow...you really have no ability to address the fact that Obama is the one that said these things.

[Ferd]

well boys lets shut the forum down. McFly has decided his point stands!


Here is the logic.

Obama runs an ad.

Ad says McCain will make abortion illegal.

Republicans talk about the ad and say it is dishonest.

Republicans are therefore using this as a scare tactic to keep people from voting for Obama because Obama has an ad that accuses McCain of making Abortion illegal.


You either have to be smoking crystal meth to follow this logic or you have to be a Keith Oberman starter kit. I dont know which and I dont know which would be worse.



YO CHRIS, REPORT THIS!

[Ferd]

your point is?? Obama is a liar? Because that is the only logical conclusion to your rant. Do you just post and forget to read what you are responding to?

Or is your reading comprehension lacking?

let me guess! Let me guess!!!!

[Aquila]

Wow...you really have no ability to address the fact that Obama is the one that said these things.

Obama's wrong. McCain isn't going to take away a woman's right to choose. Obama 2008 is manipulating the paranoid prochoice women of our country.

This issue is nothing but pure manipulation on both sides.

[Ferd]

Obama's wrong. McCain isn't going to take away a woman's right to choose. Obama 2008 is manipulating the paranoid prochoice women of our country.

This issue is nothing but pure manipulation on both sides.

exactly what is it that McCain and the Republicans are manipulating in this ad?

[Aquila]

Ferd I know complexity isn't your strong suit. But you have Republicans pointing out Obama's add as being false .... and you have Republicans pointing out that McCain's Prolife and we must vote for him to advance the cause of life. Republicans are just talking out of both sides of their mouths.

Now...the Democrats aren't much better. They're trying to manipulate and mobilize the prochoice folks by scaring them into believing McCain is going to take away their right to choose.

The whole issue is pure stupidity and manipulation. We need to put this petty bickering behind us and look at social policies that will help women in crisis pregnancies and promote efforts to prevent pregnancy such as teaching the benefits of abstinance AND the use of contraception. I'm tired of hearing about it. They need to....GET SOMETHING DONE!!!!!!!!!!!! Pass policies aimed at reducing the abortion rate TODAY!

[Ferd]

Ferd I know complexity isn't your strong suit. But you have Republicans pointing out Obama's add as being false .... and you have Republicans pointing out that McCain's Prolife and we must vote for him to advance the cause of life. Republicans are just talking out of both sides of their mouths.

Now...the Democrats aren't much better. They're trying to manipulate and mobilize the prochoice folks by scaring them into believing McCain is going to take away their right to choose.

The whole issue is pure stupidity and manipulation. We need to put this petty bickering behind us and look at social policies that will help women in crisis pregnancies and promote efforts to prevent pregnancy such as teaching the benefits of abstinance AND the use of contraception. I'm tired of hearing about it. They need to....GET SOMETHING DONE!!!!!!!!!!!! Pass policies aimed at reducing the abortion rate TODAY!

does anyone else see the irony in these two statements?

[Baron1710]

Ferd I know complexity isn't your strong suit. But you have Republicans pointing out Obama's add as being false .... and you have Republicans pointing out that McCain's Prolife and we must vote for him to advance the cause of life. Republicans are just talking out of both sides of their mouths.

Now...the Democrats aren't much better. They're trying to manipulate and mobilize the prochoice folks by scaring them into believing McCain is going to take away their right to choose.

The whole issue is pure stupidity and manipulation. We need to put this petty bickering behind us and look at social policies that will help women in crisis pregnancies and promote efforts to prevent pregnancy such as abstinance AND the use of contraception. I'm tired of hearing about it. They need to....GET SOMETHING DONE!!!!!!!!!!!! Pass policies aimed at reducing the abortion rate TODAY!


Your boy Obama sure has a strange way of promoting the idea of less abortions. Wasn't that him? He wants less abortions but he makes providing abortion as a form of birth control one of his platforms.

Vote Obama he is a liar - kinda has a ring to it.

[Ferd]

Your boy Obama sure has a strange way of promoting the idea of less abortions. Wasn't that him? He wants less abortions but he makes providing abortion as a form of birth control one of his platforms.

Vote Obama he is a liar - kinda has a ring to it.

one thing where Obama didnt lie was when he waxed poetic about schools giving his girls condoms. he said he didnt want them punished with a baby.

[Aquila]

Your boy Obama sure has a strange way of promoting the idea of less abortions. Wasn't that him? He wants less abortions but he makes providing abortion as a form of birth control one of his platforms.

Vote Obama he is a liar - kinda has a ring to it.

Obama just wants it to be legal. Yes, that means some women might abuse that choice. But what that means to me personally as a voter is that if my wife faces a crisis pregnancy where her health or life is in danger, that painful choice would be ours to make. Not the governments.

If anyone tells you that banning abortion or even putting restrictions on abortions will have a significant impact on abortion’s occurrence they’re stupid. Muslim countries in the Middle East and Catholic Countries in South America have had some of the strongest laws against abortion and their abortion rates were still sky high (based on maternal morbidity so actual numbers are even higher). In Westernized countries abortion’s legality has had virtually no impact on abortion rates. However, there are exceptions where social policies aimed at reducing abortion have been implemented. Countries such as Belgium have passed social policies that actually help women facing crisis pregnancies thereby helping and encouraging them to choose life. In addition a strong agenda teaching the benefits of both abstinence and the use of contraceptives for those who are active have also aided in the decrease of abortion’s occurrence. Today Belgium has the LOWEST abortion rate on earth….and please note that abortion is still legal in Belgium.

Banning abortion just sweeps it under the rug without any of us having to put money into solid programs and initiatives that will save lives. Most political conservatives oppose programs that would actually save lives because after all is said and done all they care about is their money.

[Aquila]

one thing where Obama didnt lie was when he waxed poetic about schools giving his girls condoms. he said he didnt want them punished with a baby.

He's right. It's not the government's job to force a woman to give birth in effort to some how punish her for her improper behaviors, wrong though they may be. Society, including Government, should reach out with programs, efforts, and initiatives to help her and encourage her to choose life and raise her children. She's made a mistake, and too many prolife people want to force her to give birth and abandon her by cutting her WIC, health insurance, etc.... just to make an example out of her.

[rgcraig]

I was reprimanded yesterday because I said "I can't believe a Christian would believe abortion is okay."

One of my young employees was hurt that I said that.

[rgcraig]

Obama just wants it to be legal. Yes, that means some women might abuse that choice. But what that means to me personally as a voter is that if my wife faces a crisis pregnancy where her health or life is in danger, that painful choice would be ours to make. Not the governments.

If anyone tells you that banning abortion or even putting restrictions on abortions will have a significant impact on abortion’s occurrence they’re stupid. Muslim countries in the Middle East and Catholic Countries in South America have had some of the strongest laws against abortion and their abortion rates were still sky high (based on maternal morbidity so actual numbers are even higher). In Westernized countries abortion’s legality has had virtually no impact on abortion rates. However, there are exceptions where social policies aimed at reducing abortion have been implemented. Countries such as Belgium have passed social policies that actually help women facing crisis pregnancies thereby helping and encouraging them to choose life. In addition a strong agenda teaching the benefits of both abstinence and the use of contraceptives for those who are active have also aided in the decrease of abortion’s occurrence. Today Belgium has the LOWEST abortion rate on earth….and please note that abortion is still legal in Belgium.

Banning abortion just sweeps it under the rug without any of us having to put money into solid programs and initiatives that will save lives. Most political conservatives oppose programs that would actually save lives because after all is said and done all they care about is their money.

A crisis pregnancy where life and death of the mother is an issue is a medical decision - not an abortion. If your wife was in a pregnancy crisis she would go to a hospital - not an abortion clinic.

[Ferd]

A crisis pregnancy where life and death of the mother is an issue is a medical decision - not an abortion. If your wife was in a pregnancy crisis she would go to a hospital - not an abortion clinic.

Renda, you have to understand the complex logic here.


arguing a womans right to post conception birth control is a loser on every level. that means the Keith Oberman starter kits of the world are required to resort to the 2% argument.

2% of abortions happen when an otherwise happily pregnant woman comes face to face with her on mortality.


the 2% argument is designed to suspend logic and kick "feeling decision making" into high gear.

Its much too complex to be logical.

[Ferd]

He's right. It's not the government's job to force a woman to give birth in effort to some how punish her for her improper behaviors, wrong though they may be. Society, including Government, should reach out with programs, efforts, and initiatives to help her and encourage her to choose life and raise her children. She's made a mistake, and too many prolife people want to force her to give birth and abandon her by cutting her WIC, health insurance, etc.... just to make an example out of her.

of course obama is right! he was speaking! he will stop the seas from rising, and magically make your home more valuable and the moon will shine with gold dust! how could he be wrong????

[Baron1710]

Obama just wants it to be legal. Yes, that means some women might abuse that choice. But what that means to me personally as a voter is that if my wife faces a crisis pregnancy where her health or life is in danger, that painful choice would be ours to make. Not the governments.

If anyone tells you that banning abortion or even putting restrictions on abortions will have a significant impact on abortion’s occurrence they’re stupid. Muslim countries in the Middle East and Catholic Countries in South America have had some of the strongest laws against abortion and their abortion rates were still sky high (based on maternal morbidity so actual numbers are even higher). In Westernized countries abortion’s legality has had virtually no impact on abortion rates. However, there are exceptions where social policies aimed at reducing abortion have been implemented. Countries such as Belgium have passed social policies that actually help women facing crisis pregnancies thereby helping and encouraging them to choose life. In addition a strong agenda teaching the benefits of both abstinence and the use of contraceptives for those who are active have also aided in the decrease of abortion’s occurrence. Today Belgium has the LOWEST abortion rate on earth….and please note that abortion is still legal in Belgium.

Banning abortion just sweeps it under the rug without any of us having to put money into solid programs and initiatives that will save lives. Most political conservatives oppose programs that would actually save lives because after all is said and done all they care about is their money.

Let us address the misinformation in this post.

1. Restrictions reduce abortion;

"Dur..ing the 1990s, the amount of state pro-life legislation that was passed increased substantially. Furthermore, the number of abortions performed dropped by around 18 percent during the 1990s."

Laurie D. Elam-Evans, Lilo T. Strauss, Joy Herndon, Wilda Y. Parker, Sara Whitehead, and Cynthia J. Berg, “Abortion Sur..veillance—United States, 1999,” Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, Vol. 51 (November 29, 2002), pp. 1–28, at www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5109a1.htm (January 11, 2006). Calcula..tion by author.

Now watch close so you can learn to interpret data Chris;

"Among countries where abortion is legal without restriction as to reason, the highest abortion rate, 83 per 1,000, was reported for Vietnam and the lowest, seven per 1,000, for Belgium and the Netherlands."-
International Family Planning Perspectives, 1999, 25(Supplement):S30–S38

This lowest abortion rate is based upon the caveat that it is compared only among countries where it is legal without restriction, yet you compare it to all countries.

The facts Belgium is no where near the lowest in terms of pregnancies that end in abortion. notice all the countries below Belgium.

Belgium 2005 13.2 *
Greece 2003 13.1
Andorra 1995 13.0
Taiwan (ROC) 1999 13.0
Switzerland 2005 12.9
Azerbaijan 2006 12.3
Isle of Man 2006 12.1 *
Israel 2006 11.8
Puerto Rico 2005 11.7
Bahrain 2002 11.5 *
Kyrgyzstan 2006 11.0
Barbados 1995 10.3
Guyana 2005 10.1
Costa Rica 2005 10.0
Bermuda 1984 9.9
Tunisia 1996 9.6
South Africa 2005 9.2
Turks and Caicos Islands 2005 9.1
Tajikistan 2006 8.6
Uzbekistan 2006 7.5
Ireland 2006 7.3 *
Saint Helena 1990 7.1
Faeroe Islands 2006 5.8
Kosovo 2006 4.6
Bosnia and Herzegovina 2001 3.2
Austria 2000 3.0
Suriname 1994 3.0
India 2000 2.7
Gibraltar 2005 1.9 *
Malta 2006 1.4 *
Qatar 2005 1.3
Portugal 2005 0.8
Venezuela 1968 0.8
Poland 2006 0.09
Mexico 2005 0.07 *
Botswana 1984 0.04
Chile 1991 0.02
Panama 2000 0.02

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/wrjp333pd.html

[U376977]

I was reprimanded yesterday because I said "I can't believe a Christian would believe abortion is okay."

One of my young employees was hurt that I said that.

Demonstrative of the moral slide of todays youth. And the acceptance of a belief in individual "choice" as opposed to core morals and standards. The line of "choice" is swiggily. Women can kill the baby and that is her choice. "Choice" is being carried into the realm of gay marriage, and even "man/boy love." After all it is a "choice" and we are not supposed to judge. In a few years a Roe v Wade could come to the courts that says a 50 years old man can marry a 10 years old boy because it is their "right to privacy."

[rgcraig]

Demonstrative of the moral slide of todays youth. And the acceptance of a belief in individual "choice" as opposed to core morals and standards. The line of "choice" is swiggily. Women can kill the baby and that is her choice. "Choice" is being carried into the realm of gay marriage, and even "man/boy love." After all it is a "choice" and we are not supposed to judge. In a few years a Roe v Wade could come to the courts that says a 50 years old man can marry a 10 years old boy because it is their "right to privacy."
Absolutely, and this young lady is a Christian (COGIC). It was all about choice - no one tells her she can't pierce her ears or lip, so why should they be able to tell her she can't have an abortion.

She then went on to say how can we have corporal punishment, but want to outlaw abortion.

No logic at all.

[Aquila]

I was reprimanded yesterday because I said "I can't believe a Christian would believe abortion is okay."

One of my young employees was hurt that I said that.

I don’t know of any Christian who believes that, “abortion is okay”. I know a number of Christians who firmly believe that abortion is an issue that the government is incapable of dealing with by merely banning it. In fact, statistics show that banning abortion does little to prevent its occurrence. Consider the fact that there’s less abortion today than before Roe and its perfectly legal. When someone says something like, “I can’t believe a Christian would believe abortion is okay.” they’re distorting reality and calling into question another Christian’s faith. It demonstrates a narrow and uninformed opinion of the subject and yes…it can be highly offensive. The abortion issue has been used for decades now as a weapon to brow beat anyone who doesn’t vote Republican and frankly many Christians are starting to wake up to it. We’re not in support of abortion, but we can plainly see that abortion isn’t going to be banned in this country and that merely banning abortion would do little to save lives anyway. So it’s the wrong fight. We need to stand up for strong social policies that help women in crisis pregnancies and agendas that teach the benefits of abstinence and the use of contraceptives for those who are active.

Many Muslim nations have criminalized abortion and their abortion rates are still very high. Of course the religionist governments feel good because they’ve swept it all under the rug and don’t have to actually deal with it. But Westernized countries like Belgium have programs and efforts that have allowed them to achieve one of the lowest abortion rates on earth….and yes….abortion is still legal in Belgium. Eastern European countries discovered that when faced with high abortion rates (based on maternal morbidity) after legalizing the procedure and provided education the abortion rates dropped significantly. Legalizing it allowed them to closely monitor its actual occurrence and the reasons behind women having abortion. In Belgium this allowed the government to find out what measures might be necessary to help more women choose life.

So just because a Christian may side with “choice” or “pro-choice” politicians it doesn’t mean they don’t value life. It means they believe a more comprehensive approach is necessary beyond merely banning the procedure which is all conservatives propose we do. Pro-Life conservatives have accomplished next to nothing in the past 30 years. It’s time to take a new approach and address the abortion rate without focusing so much on abortions legality, which actually has little impact on abortion’s occurrence.

There’s a bigger picture out there than most realize. Think of it this way…there’s more than one way to skin a cat.

Maybe you should approach that person and apologize for what you said and allow them to share with you their thoughts on the matter. Odds are if they are a devout Christian who leans Democratic they simply think more is in order to address this issue than merely banning abortion. They might fear that banning abortion might cause a spike in abortion rates to pre-Roe numbers.

Abortion is an issue that isn’t going to go away. It’s here to stay. We have to look FORWARD to what policies we can enact that will help and encourage more women to choose life. Yep, we’re going to have to fund programs and save babies…that’s putting our money were our mouth is. But I assure you….it’s the conservatives that will fight you tooth and nail from trying to save lives. They only want it banned because they believe that once it’s banned it will magically go away.

[DividedThigh]

abortion is murder and should not be tolerated, and the so called the life of the mother exception is much more rare than 2 percent, how about maybe 1 in 10,000, good grief, there is no reason as a rule to kill a child, obama supported abortions even in the illinois legislature, he is a fraud, dt

[rgcraig]

Oh, I know how she feels - she was yelling her beliefs and opinions. It was very PERSONAL to her and I believe that was the problem.

I have apologized - it was way out of line of me as her supervisor to say that.

[Aquila]

abortion is murder and should not be tolerated, and the so called the life of the mother exception is much more rare than 2 percent, how about maybe 1 in 10,000, good grief, there is no reason as a rule to kill a child, obama supported abortions even in the illinois legislature, he is a fraud, dt

Abortion's legality does little to prevent it's occurrence. Muslim nations and heavily Catholic nations are prime examples. Their abortion rates are higher than ours. If it's murder....you'd think you'd want to save lives. Sadly, all you care about is what it looks like on paper.

[Aquila]

Oh, I know how she feels - she was yelling her beliefs and opinions. It was very PERSONAL to her and I believe that was the problem.

I have apologized - it was way out of line of me as her supervisor to say that.

Odds are she's been attacked by Christians she loved and respected because she doesn't want to vote Republican.

The abortion issue is just a weapon they use to brow beat Christians into voting the way they want them too.

[DividedThigh]

Abortion's legality does little to prevent it's occurrence. Muslim nations and heavily Catholic nations are prime examples. Their abortion rates are higher than ours. If it's murder....you'd think you'd want to save lives. Sadly, all you care about is what it looks like on paper.

i am aware of that chris, but it is still wrong, dont ever pretend to know what i feel or think, i am not insulting you, just stating my opinion, and i am not trying to take that from you, dont be silly boy, dt:snapout:club

[Baron1710]

I don’t know of any Christian who believes that, “abortion is okay”. In fact, statistics show that banning abortion does little to prevent its occurrence.

Many Muslim nations have criminalized abortion and their abortion rates are still very high. Of course the religionist governments feel good because they’ve swept it all under the rug and don’t have to actually deal with it. But Westernized countries like Belgium have programs and efforts that have allowed them to achieve one of the lowest abortion rates on earth….and yes….abortion is still legal in Belgium. Eastern European countries discovered that when faced with high abortion rates (based on maternal morbidity) after legalizing the procedure and provided education the abortion rates dropped significantly. Legalizing it allowed them to closely monitor its actual occurrence and the reasons behind women having abortion. In Belgium this allowed the government to find out what measures might be necessary to help more women choose life.



Same lies with no recognition of the facts posted above.

[Ferd]

Oh, I know how she feels - she was yelling her beliefs and opinions. It was very PERSONAL to her and I believe that was the problem.

I have apologized - it was way out of line of me as her supervisor to say that.
sadly you are right.... I just wonder if she recognizes the error of her rants as well?

for the record, i agree with your error.

[rgcraig]

Odds are she's been attacked by Christians she loved and respected because she doesn't want to vote Republican.

The abortion issue is just a weapon they use to brow beat Christians into voting the way they want them too.

No, odds are that she was involved in an abortion and is having to deal with it all now.

[Aquila]

i am aware of that chris, but it is still wrong, dont ever pretend to know what i feel or think, i am not insulting you, just stating my opinion, and i am not trying to take that from you, dont be silly boy, dt:snapout:club

I agree that it's still wrong. But at the end of the day my question isn't how can we make it look wrong on paper...but rather how can we reduce the abortion rate 30%, 40%, or even 50% in this country? At the end of the day how many lives can we save with comprehensive social policies aimed at helping and encouraging women to choose life?

[rgcraig]

sadly you are right.... I just wonder if she recognizes the error of her rants as well?

for the record, i agree with your error.

No, not at all. She's a very opinionated young (21) lady. She is ALWAYS right and she was MAD that the others in the room were holding her feet to the fire about her rant.

[Aquila]

No, odds are that she was involved in an abortion and is having to deal with it all now.

That's quite a leap, but it's possible.

[DividedThigh]

i am fine with your understanding and opinion, but abort the rudeness dude, dt

[Aquila]

No, not at all. She's a very opinionated young (21) lady. She is ALWAYS right and she was MAD that the others in the room were holding her feet to the fire about her rant.

Well...could she be right about this?

[rgcraig]

That's quite a leap, but it's possible.

Not a leap at all. I had a conversation with her yesterday when I apologized.

[rgcraig]

Well...could she be right about this?

Her argument was abortion isn't murder. Do you think she was right?

[Aquila]

i am fine with your understanding and opinion, but abort the rudeness dude, dt

Bro, I'm sorry you're catching the heat here. If you go back and read the first few posts they nearly immediately attacked me personally for voicing an opinion. Sorry if I took that frustration out on you bro. :friend

[DividedThigh]

she means the girl has that i know it all attitude like a lot of kids chris, most of the time they dont have a clue, kapisch, dt

[Baron1710]

Bro, I'm sorry you're catching the heat here. If you go back and read the first few posts they nearly immediately attacked me personally for voicing an opinion. Sorry if I took that frustration out on you bro. :friend

If you want to consider being asked to respond to the post rather than responding to whatever voice you were hearing in your head I guess you can consider it an attack.

[DividedThigh]

Bro, I'm sorry you're catching the heat here. If you go back and read the first few posts they nearly immediately attacked me personally for voicing an opinion. Sorry if I took that frustration out on you bro. :friend

no prob dude, i did not attack you, i dont have a prob talking with you , just dont be rude and it is fine, that steals whatever good and right you express, simply by the address, cool

[rgcraig]

she means the girl has that i know it all attitude like a lot of kids chris, most of the time they dont have a clue, kapisch, dt

Exactly! You could tell what she was saying was just a regurgitation of what she'd heard. She was having trouble backing up anything she said.

[Aquila]

Her argument was abortion isn't murder. Do you think she was right?

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's not murder on a moral level. Even character assassination and hating one’s brother or sister is murder. She might have been taught rabbinical opinion on the issue. A lot of rabbis in the Jewish community don’t see abortion as “murder” either. I always ask this type of person if they think abortion is a “good thing”? Most will agree that it’s a terrible tragedy. Then we move on from arguing over definitions to talking about how we can help reduce the number of “tragedies” in our country. Often words hurt so deeply the pain prevents us from actually taking action on something and we engage in endless argumentation.

[DividedThigh]

Exactly! You could tell what she was saying was just a regurgitation of what she'd heard. She was having trouble backing up anything she said.

if i had a dollar for all the kids i have known with that tude i could retire now renda, lol

[Baron1710]

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's not murder on a moral level. Even character assassination and hating one’s brother or sister is murder. She might have been taught rabbinical opinion on the issue. A lot of rabbis in the Jewish community don’t see abortion as “murder” either. I always ask this type of person if they think abortion is a “good thing”? Most will agree that it’s a terrible tragedy. Then we move on from arguing over definitions to talking about how we can help reduce the number of “tragedies” in our country. Often words hurt so deeply the pain prevents us from actually taking action on something and we engage in endless argumentation.

Tough to answer the question huh?

[Ferd]

Exactly! You could tell what she was saying was just a regurgitation of what she'd heard. She was having trouble backing up anything she said.

LOL! i have had those conversations with those kind of folk. I just start asking questions until they start asking me for the answers.

it generally ends with them either completly confused or they decide they have been lied to.

[DividedThigh]

LOL! i have had those conversations with those kind of folk. I just start asking questions until they start asking me for the answers.

it generally ends with them either completly confused or they decide they have been lied to.

oh that is funny, :ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny

[Ferd]

Ferd I know complexity isn't your strong suit.


please note, the above was the first personal attack in this thread....

[rgcraig]

if i had a dollar for all the kids i have known with that tude i could retire now renda, lol

It's really hard to manage in a work place. I have a wide range - - a baby boomer to this Gen Y person.......they have completely different work ethics.

[Aquila]

Tough to answer the question huh?

No, it's just a complex issue. It's not always "murder". The problem is people like you want to endlessly debate definitions instead of moving on to save lives. I've found that the term "tragedy" is something all involved can agree on and once that's done most will come together to try to reduce the number of abortions in our country. I know it must frustrate you...but you'll never get everyone to see things exactly like you do.

[Aquila]

please note, the above was the first personal attack in this thread....

I said that after you guys began making sport of me by trying to insinuate that I lacked "reading comprehension" skills. Go back and read it. The first personal attack was fired at me.

[Baron1710]

No, it's just a complex issue. It's not always "murder". The problem is people like you want to endlessly debate definitions instead of moving on to save lives. I've found that the term "tragedy" is something all involved can agree on and once that's done most will come together to try to reduce the number of abortions in our country. I know it must frustrate you...but you'll never get everyone to see things exactly like you do.

Killing an innocent person is always murder. Are you aware that if someone puts a gun to your head and tell you to kill someone, or tells you they will kill your family if you don't, you have no legal defense for killing them? Killing the innocent has always been defined as murder.

[Aquila]

HELLO MCFLY...(Knocking on your forehead) this is an OBAMA ad, not a McCain ad.

Here I was called out of my name and made sport of. Though I did think it was funny. lol

[DividedThigh]

It's really hard to manage in a work place. I have a wide range - - a baby boomer to this Gen Y person.......they have completely different work ethics.

renda, you mean they is lazy, and some of them dont have any other ethics either, lol, gotta go let the therapist hurt my arm, dt

[Aquila]

Your point is?? Obama is a liar? Because that is the only logical conclusion to your rant. Do you just post and forget to read what you are responding to?

Or is your reading comprehension lacking?

Now the hits get more serious and personal.

[Aquila]

well boys lets shut the forum down. McFly has decided his point stands!


Here is the logic.

Obama runs an ad.

Ad says McCain will make abortion illegal.

Republicans talk about the ad and say it is dishonest.

Republicans are therefore using this as a scare tactic to keep people from voting for Obama because Obama has an ad that accuses McCain of making Abortion illegal.


You either have to be smoking crystal meth to follow this logic or you have to be a Keith Oberman starter kit. I dont know which and I dont know which would be worse.



YO CHRIS, REPORT THIS!

Here it goes personal again.

The reader will note that I didn't go personal at all yet.

[Aquila]

let me guess! Let me guess!!!!

And here you join the chorus of personal attacks.

[Baron1710]

I said that after you guys began making sport of me by trying to insinuate that I lacked "reading comprehension" skills. Go back and read it. The first personal attack was fired at me.

You either lacked reading comprehension skills or you simply decided to respond to a ghost posting.

[Aquila]

You either lacked reading comprehension skills or you simply decided to respond to a ghost posting.

I firmly believe you just can't help yourself. lol

[Baron1710]

Here I was called out of my name and made sport of. Though I did think it was funny. lol

Boo hoo. You went off, no correlation between your response and the original post.

And I did think it was funny if I could get on youtube I would have posted a clip of that scene.

[Baron1710]

You either lacked reading comprehension skills or you simply decided to respond to a ghost posting.

I firmly believe you just can't help yourself. lol

And it applies yet again...

HELLO MCFLY...(Knocking on your forehead)

[Aquila]

Killing an innocent person is always murder. Are you aware that if someone puts a gun to your head and tell you to kill someone, or tells you they will kill your family if you don't, you have no legal defense for killing them? Killing the innocent has always been defined as murder.

I believe it is. However, abortion is an issue that government has proven incapable of addressing through merely banning a procedure. A comprehensive approach is necessary. And seeing that in the real world a Westernized country like America will never outlaw abortion good sense demands we take a stand for policies that will help and encourage women in crisis pregnancies to choose life.

Now, you do open a rather large can of worms here. It’s been said that in the United States the percentage of executed criminals who were innocent of charges convicted for could be as high as 11%. Is that murder? Would you say a Christian is justified in opposing the death penalty on the grounds that it’s not worth risking the possibility of murdering an innocent person?

Also, in war the heaviest cost isn’t paid by the warring factions in power but rather the innocent civilians caught in the crossfire. Would you say a Christian is justified in opposing war on the grounds that it results in the murder of innocent civilians?

I think we’d both agree….this world is fallen and brutal. That means we need to mediate the damage done…but we’ll never achieve a moral utopia. Rather it be abortion, the death penalty, or war it will always be with us and we must do what we can to minimize the damage of these social evils. Sadly, merely banning abortion doesn’t affect abortion rates. A more comprehensive approach is necessary.

[Aquila]

Boo hoo. You went off, no correlation between your response and the original post.

You didn't know where I was going. My point still stands.

And I did think it was funny if I could get on youtube I would have posted a clip of that scene.

That was a very funny movie. lol

[Baron1710]

I believe it is. However, abortion is an issue that government has proven incapable of addressing through merely banning a procedure. A comprehensive approach is necessary. And seeing that in the real world a Westernized country like America will never outlaw abortion good sense demands we take a stand for policies that will help and encourage women in crisis pregnancies to choose life.

Now, you do open a rather large can of worms here. It’s been said that in the United States the percentage of executed criminals who were innocent of charges convicted for could be as high as 11%. Is that murder? Would you say a Christian is justified in opposing the death penalty on the grounds that it’s not worth risking the possibility of murdering an innocent person?

Also, in war the heaviest cost isn’t paid by the warring factions in power but rather the innocent civilians caught in the crossfire. Would you say a Christian is justified in opposing war on the grounds that it results in the murder of innocent civilians?

I think we’d both agree….this world is fallen and brutal. That means we need to mediate the damage done…but we’ll never achieve a moral utopia. Rather it be abortion, the death penalty, or war it will always be with us and we must do what we can to minimize the damage of these social evils. Sadly, merely banning abortion doesn’t affect abortion rates. A more comprehensive approach is necessary.

Have you ever watched a TV program on the law? I have one word for you...Intent.

If a soldier INTENTIONALLY kills a civilian guess what he is prosecuted. If the government INTENTIONALLY killed an innocent person the individuals responsible would be prosecuted for it. I have never heard of an unintentional abortion in an abortion clinic.

[Ferd]

I said that after you guys began making sport of me by trying to insinuate that I lacked "reading comprehension" skills. Go back and read it. The first personal attack was fired at me.

I did. you were asked questions.... you didnt ask a question. you stated what you called a known fact.


there is a difference.


ours pointed out a glaring mistake on your part, then a refusal on your part to correct the mistake.

yours was a personal attack.


once again, your "facts" pull up short.

[Aquila]

renda, you mean they is lazy, and some of them dont have any other ethics either, lol, gotta go let the therapist hurt my arm, dt

LOL

Hey, here's a question. How many of you are currently at work?

[Aquila]

Have you ever watched a TV program on the law? I have one word for you...Intent.

If a soldier INTENTIONALLY kills a civilian guess what he is prosecuted. If the government INTENTIONALLY killed an innocent person the individuals responsible would be prosecuted for it. I have never heard of an unintentional abortion in an abortion clinic.

When war is waged it's a known fact that civilians will die. But deciding to go to war they are accepting that reality and their deaths are the result of the intent to go to war.

When the death penalty is employed it is a known fact that some may be unjustly executed. By adopting a death penalty such is accepted and their deaths are the result of the full intent to institute a death penalty.

But I'm not talking legality. I'm talking primarily on a moral level.

[Ferd]

well boys lets shut the forum down. McFly has decided his point stands!


Here is the logic.

Obama runs an ad.

Ad says McCain will make abortion illegal.

Republicans talk about the ad and say it is dishonest.

Republicans are therefore using this as a scare tactic to keep people from voting for Obama because Obama has an ad that accuses McCain of making Abortion illegal.


You either have to be smoking crystal meth to follow this logic or you have to be a Keith Oberman starter kit. I dont know which and I dont know which would be worse.



YO CHRIS, REPORT THIS!

the reader will note, that I attacked the logic. I addresssed the opinion...not the poster directly.

[Aquila]

Have you ever watched a TV program on the law? I have one word for you...Intent.

If a soldier INTENTIONALLY kills a civilian guess what he is prosecuted. If the government INTENTIONALLY killed an innocent person the individuals responsible would be prosecuted for it. I have never heard of an unintentional abortion in an abortion clinic.

What do you suggest we do to women who procure abortions?

[Baron1710]

What do you suggest we do to women who procure abortions?

Prosecute the doctor.

[Aquila]

lol

Looks like I got Ferd wrapped up for a while. ;)

[rgcraig]

LOL

Hey, here's a question. How many of you are currently at work?

I am and lazy, I'm not.

I'm doing two or three things AND reading here - - - old work ethics of muti-tasking!

[Aquila]

Prosecute the doctor.

Okay, that takes care of the doctor.

Isn't the woman an accomplice to murder?

What do you suggest we do to women who procure abortions?

[Aquila]

I am and lazy, I'm not.

I'm doing two or three things AND reading here - - - old work ethics of muti-tasking!

lol

[U376977]

I believe it is. However, abortion is an issue that government has proven incapable of addressing through merely banning a procedure. A comprehensive approach is necessary. And seeing that in the real world a Westernized country like America will never outlaw abortion good sense demands we take a stand for policies that will help and encourage women in crisis pregnancies to choose life.

Now, you do open a rather large can of worms here. It’s been said that in the United States the percentage of executed criminals who were innocent of charges convicted for could be as high as 11%. Is that murder? Would you say a Christian is justified in opposing the death penalty on the grounds that it’s not worth risking the possibility of murdering an innocent person?

Also, in war the heaviest cost isn’t paid by the warring factions in power but rather the innocent civilians caught in the crossfire. Would you say a Christian is justified in opposing war on the grounds that it results in the murder of innocent civilians?

I think we’d both agree….this world is fallen and brutal. That means we need to mediate the damage done…but we’ll never achieve a moral utopia. Rather it be abortion, the death penalty, or war it will always be with us and we must do what we can to minimize the damage of these social evils. Sadly, merely banning abortion doesn’t affect abortion rates. A more comprehensive approach is necessary.

PLEASE STOP.
No way can you include capital punishment and war killings in the debate about abortion, apples and oranges.

And the idea that if we just had more social programs to help hussies that sleep around to give them an incentive to not have an abortion is crazy. Fact is that there are muliple programs already. Many mothers (using the term loosely) have bastard childern now! They do not abort them. The govt steps in and provides healthcare for the child and mom. What more do you want for the strumpets? Give them a nice condo uptown, pay all their bills and a stipend until the baby is 18, include a vacation 2 times a year--once to the beach and another to the mountains. Give me a break!

[Ferd]

The logic:

People who think abortion is murder should support abortion because abortion reduces the number of abortions and therefore saves more babies from abortion.

those that oppose abortion are actully more supportive of child murder because opposing abortion leads to higher rates of abortion.


its complex people!

[Baron1710]

Okay, that takes care of the doctor.

Isn't the woman an accomplice to murder?

What do you suggest we do to women who procure abortions?

The reality is when doctors start going to jail and losing their license to practice the abortion mills will dry up.

One could make the argument that an unconscious woman could not have participated in the murder of her baby.

[Aquila]

Wow, this one freaked out. Lol

PLEASE STOP.
No way can you include capital punishment and war killings in the debate about abortion, apples and oranges.

When a leader decides to go to war they KNOW innocent civilians will die. Any leader who thinks they won’t has obviously lost their grip on reality. By deciding to go to war the deaths of innocent people is generally accepted though actions are taken to mediate the impact and reduce their number. So the end result is murder. Wars not cool man…war’s an abomination, a scourge of mankind.

Most death penalty advocates know that a small number of individuals were wrongfully prosecuted and executed down through our history. That fact is just an accepted fact and actions are taken to mediate and minimize their number. But the end result is a system that while predominantly executes the guilty, also has murdered the innocent.

As a society we accept these tragedies. In this fallen world…sadly we have to. Abortion is similar in my opinion. Abortion will never go away. So we have to accept that fact. We also have to implement measures to mediate it’s impact and reduce the number of abortions.

And the idea that if we just had more social programs to help hussies that sleep around to give them an incentive to not have an abortion is crazy. Fact is that there are muliple programs already. Many mothers (using the term loosely) have bastard childern now! They do not abort them. The govt steps in and provides healthcare for the child and mom. What more do you want for the strumpets? Give them a nice condo uptown, pay all their bills and a stipend until the baby is 18, include a vacation 2 times a year--once to the beach and another to the mountains. Give me a break!

Wow. There’s a lot of animosity for women who make mistakes there bro. All I can say is that Belgium has taken measures to help women in crisis pregnancies and their abortion rate is the lowest in the world. It’s about RESULTS. Your opinion doesn’t matter when the fact is that Belgium has only 8 abortions per 1000 pregnancies while nations like Peru and Chile who have outlawed most abortions have abortion rates over 80 or even 90 per 1000 pregnancies (based on maternal morbidity so the number is actually higher).

Call it whatever you want but at the end of the day Belgium has done more to save the lives of the unborn than most Catholic Countries in South America and Muslim countries in the Middle East though they might have strong restrictions on abortion.

[Baron1710]

Chris you ignore posts that refute your nonsense and just keep on spewing it.

[Baron1710]

Let us address the misinformation in this post.

1. Restrictions reduce abortion;

"Dur..ing the 1990s, the amount of state pro-life legislation that was passed increased substantially. Furthermore, the number of abortions performed dropped by around 18 percent during the 1990s."

Laurie D. Elam-Evans, Lilo T. Strauss, Joy Herndon, Wilda Y. Parker, Sara Whitehead, and Cynthia J. Berg, “Abortion Sur..veillance—United States, 1999,” Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, Vol. 51 (November 29, 2002), pp. 1–28, at www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5109a1.htm (January 11, 2006). Calcula..tion by author.

Now watch close so you can learn to interpret data Chris;

"Among countries where abortion is legal without restriction as to reason, the highest abortion rate, 83 per 1,000, was reported for Vietnam and the lowest, seven per 1,000, for Belgium and the Netherlands."-
International Family Planning Perspectives, 1999, 25(Supplement):S30–S38

This lowest abortion rate is based upon the caveat that it is compared only among countries where it is legal without restriction, yet you compare it to all countries.

The facts Belgium is no where near the lowest in terms of pregnancies that end in abortion. notice all the countries below Belgium.

Belgium 2005 13.2 *
Greece 2003 13.1
Andorra 1995 13.0
Taiwan (ROC) 1999 13.0
Switzerland 2005 12.9
Azerbaijan 2006 12.3
Isle of Man 2006 12.1 *
Israel 2006 11.8
Puerto Rico 2005 11.7
Bahrain 2002 11.5 *
Kyrgyzstan 2006 11.0
Barbados 1995 10.3
Guyana 2005 10.1
Costa Rica 2005 10.0
Bermuda 1984 9.9
Tunisia 1996 9.6
South Africa 2005 9.2
Turks and Caicos Islands 2005 9.1
Tajikistan 2006 8.6
Uzbekistan 2006 7.5
Ireland 2006 7.3 *
Saint Helena 1990 7.1
Faeroe Islands 2006 5.8
Kosovo 2006 4.6
Bosnia and Herzegovina 2001 3.2
Austria 2000 3.0
Suriname 1994 3.0
India 2000 2.7
Gibraltar 2005 1.9 *
Malta 2006 1.4 *
Qatar 2005 1.3
Portugal 2005 0.8
Venezuela 1968 0.8
Poland 2006 0.09
Mexico 2005 0.07 *
Botswana 1984 0.04
Chile 1991 0.02
Panama 2000 0.02

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/wrjp333pd.html


Bump for Chris. Also you ignored the point that intent makes the difference between abortion, civilian casualties and innocently executed innocents.

[U376977]

The reality is when doctors start going to jail and losing their license to practice the abortion mills will dry up.

One could make the argument that an unconscious woman could not have participated in the murder of her baby.

How about a tax on their profits. The fact is that they make BIG $$. Hti the docs and abortion mills in their pockets. Use the tax $$ to pay for yet more "programs" for moms that actually have their babies.

[Aquila]

The reality is when doctors start going to jail and losing their license to practice the abortion mills will dry up.

One could make the argument that an unconscious woman could not have participated in the murder of her baby.

If abortion is absolutely MURDER and has to be handled as such we have to go all the way. The woman who hired the hit man, I mean the doctor, conspired and was an accomplice to the murder. By walking into the clinic, willingly procuring abortion services, by allowing them to put her under or sedate her, and allowing them to kill her child, and lastly paying them money to do so she is an accomplice to murder.

Also, if a good friend drove her to the clinic that friend should be charged for the part they played in driving her to the clinic. By driving the woman to the clinic, knowing a murder would be performed, they are also an accomplice to murder. Oh…did her mom, dad, or boyfriend know about it and are they keeping quiet? That’s also a crime.

And abortion rates were higher when abortion was illegal bro. Look at the statistics. Also history will show that doctors were not always the ones who performed abortions. Often it was a midwife or family member…or the woman herself.

The point is….this is beyond the government’s scope. Abortion is abortion. It’s with us, has been with us, and will always be with us. It’s time to focus on policies and measures to help women in crisis pregnancies with the issues they face to encourage them to choose life.

[Aquila]

Bump for Chris. Also you ignored the point that intent makes the difference between abortion, civilian casualties and innocently executed innocents.

Countries were abortion is illegal are hard to measure with certainty. Maternal morbidity rates play a major part in helping to interpret the data. Either way, Belgium has accomplished far more than most Western nations in the way of preventing abortion.

When it's illegal, it's swept under the rug. Consder that according to the President of Iran there are no gays in Iran. lol Riiiiiggggghhhhhht.

[Baron1710]

If abortion is absolutely MURDER and has to be handled as such we have to go all the way. The woman who hired the hit man, I mean the doctor, conspired and was an accomplice to the murder. By walking into the clinic, willingly procuring abortion services, by allowing them to put her under or sedate her, and allowing them to kill her child, and lastly paying them money to do so she is an accomplice to murder.

Also, if a good friend drove her to the clinic that friend should be charged for the part they played in driving her to the clinic. By driving the woman to the clinic, knowing a murder would be performed, they are also an accomplice to murder. Oh…did her mom, dad, or boyfriend know about it and are they keeping quiet? That’s also a crime.

And abortion rates were higher when abortion was illegal bro. Look at the statistics. Also history will show that doctors were not always the ones who performed abortions. Often it was a midwife or family member…or the woman herself.

The point is….this is beyond the government’s scope. Abortion is abortion. It’s with us, has been with us, and will always be with us. It’s time to focus on policies and measures to help women in crisis pregnancies with the issues they face to encourage them to choose life.

First of all you don't have the vaguest notion about writing legislation and enforcing a law. If a law is written to protect women by outlawing abortion a woman CANNOT be prosecuted for trying to get one.

An example of this was laws that forbid men from transporting women across state lines for purposes of prostitution. The Supreme Court said women cannot be prosecuted under this law even if they willing went and wanted to go with the man, because they were of the class the law intended to protect. Well settled law.

[tstew]

If any of you can tell me specifically what the GOP is pledging to do to stop abortions (that is different from all the rhetoric in the past)...then I will give the GOP my moral vote at every level of government. That way in four years we can see what has actually been done and we won't be having these pie in the sky scenarios every election cycle.

[Aquila]

PLEASE STOP.
No way can you include capital punishment and war killings in the debate about abortion, apples and oranges.

And the idea that if we just had more social programs to help hussies that sleep around to give them an incentive to not have an abortion is crazy. Fact is that there are muliple programs already. Many mothers (using the term loosely) have bastard childern now! They do not abort them. The govt steps in and provides healthcare for the child and mom. What more do you want for the strumpets? Give them a nice condo uptown, pay all their bills and a stipend until the baby is 18, include a vacation 2 times a year--once to the beach and another to the mountains. Give me a break!

You obviously missed the point. Abortion, war, crime, and the death penalty are just social evils that are going to be with us until Christ comes. We do well to minimize the damage done while maintaining a grip on the reality that these things aren't going to go away.

[Aquila]

First of all you don't have the vaguest notion about writing legislation and enforcing a law. If a law is written to protect women by outlawing abortion a woman CANNOT be prosecuted for trying to get one.

An example of this was laws that forbid men from transporting women across state lines for purposes of prostitution. The Supreme Court said women cannot be prosecuted under this law even if they willing went and wanted to go with the man, because they were of the class the law intended to protect. Well settled law.

That's stupid. Sorry, if a woman pays to have her child murdered shouldn't she be charged with murder?

Are these laws you propose in your imaginary moral utopia to "protect women" or to "protect the unborn" from women and doctors who would kill them?

What’s the difference between a woman hiring a doctor to kill her unborn child and a woman hiring a hit man to kill her two week old baby?

[Baron1710]

That's stupid. Sorry, if a woman pays to have her child murdered shouldn't she be charged with murder?

Are these laws to "protect women" or to "protect the unborn" from women and doctors who would kill them?

You can rant and rave all you want but what I said was true no matter how much you dislike it. The purpose of the law is set forth in the legislation which is why it would be written to protect women.

You obviously know more about laws and how to apply them.

Abortion is about money. When you take away a doctors medical license for performing abortions they will dry up.

[Aquila]

The logic:

People who think abortion is murder should support abortion because abortion reduces the number of abortions and therefore saves more babies from abortion.

those that oppose abortion are actully more supportive of child murder because opposing abortion leads to higher rates of abortion.


its complex people!

Ferd, you'd make a terrible liberal. No matter what you do stay conservative. You don't have what it takes bro. lol

[Aquila]

You can rant and rave all you want but what I said was true no matter how much you dislike it. The purpose of the law is set forth in the legislation which is why it would be written to protect women.

You obviously know more about laws and how to apply them.

Abortion is about money. When you take away a doctors medical license for performing abortions they will dry up.

Bro....abortions have been around since ancient Egypt. Taking licenses will do little. Doctors will just do it under the table or a black market providing abortion services will develop. If you think it will just "dry up" you're pretty naive.

[Aquila]

We aren’t going to eliminate abortion in this country. Those who think we will are delusional. We’re wasting our time, effort, and money in trying to combat abortion’s legality. Instead, we need to address abortion by addressing the issues women face that compel them to feel they have to choose an abortion. Now we can debate if that’s the government’s role or the role of private organizations…but either way it has to be done. Personally, I envision a combination of both being involved.

Here are just a few things that can be done to reduce the abortion rate…

-Adopt a child
-Promote the benefits of abstinence
-Promote the benefits (and explain risks) of using contraceptives
-Expand WIC
-Expand SCHIP to cover pregnant women, children, and mothers through the first full year of life
-Grant additional funding grants to colleges that provide on-site day care for students who are parents
-Make adoption tax credits permanent
-Ban insurance industry discrimination against pregnant women
-Ensure that contraceptives are covered under all health insurance policies

I believe that these measures alone could reduce the abortion rate by 30% in 5 to 10 years. That would be far more than what the conservatives have accomplished in the past 30 years of empty anti-abortion rhetoric.

[Baron1710]

Bro....abortions have been around since ancient Egypt. Taking licenses will do little. Doctors will just do it under the table or a black market providing abortion services will develop. If you think it will just "dry up" you're pretty naive.

Did abortions increase or decrease after Roe v. Wade? Let me help you out the increased.

[Aquila]

Did abortions increase or decrease after Roe v. Wade? Let me help you out the increased.

Actually swelled but they're decreasing in spite of abortion's legality. Statistics before Roe are disputed. But right now women being more educated about the issue and access to contraception are the leading causes for this decline. We CAN drive it lower...if you conservatives are interested.

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/i/msnbc/Components/ArtAndPhoto-Fronts/HEALTH/080117/AP_AbortionRate.gif

[Baron1710]

Actually they're decreasing in spite of abortion's legality. Women being more educated about the issue and access to contraception are the leading causes for this decline. We CAN drive it lower...if you conservatives are interested.

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/i/msnbc/Components/ArtAndPhoto-Fronts/HEALTH/080117/AP_AbortionRate.gif

Take a look at your graph. The numbers exploded after it was legalized and it is still higher than it was in 1973. You really can't interpret data can you?

[Cindy]

A crisis pregnancy where life and death of the mother is an issue is a medical decision - not an abortion. If your wife was in a pregnancy crisis she would go to a hospital - not an abortion clinic.

Tell it!!!!!

[Aquila]

Take a look at your graph. The numbers exploded after it was legalized and it is still higher than it was in 1973. You really can't interpret data can you?

The number didn't explode. Better records of abortion's occurance were then being kept. The majority of this was going on under the radar.

[Cindy]

Odds are she's been attacked by Christians she loved and respected because she doesn't want to vote Republican.

The abortion issue is just a weapon they use to brow beat Christians into voting the way they want them too.

Oh stop it and get real! Your first two sentences are ludicrous. I don't know anyone that would attack someone over the way they would vote, exept for idiots.

[Aquila]

A crisis pregnancy where life and death of the mother is an issue is a medical decision - not an abortion. If your wife was in a pregnancy crisis she would go to a hospital - not an abortion clinic.

It wouldn't matter where we were. If abortion were illegal the final arbitrator of my wife's choice would be a government official.

[Aquila]

Oh stop it and get real! Your first two sentences are ludicrous. I don't know anyone that would attack someone over the way they would vote, exept for idiots.

I think we've all known a few idiots in our time. I was nearly physically assulted in a Bob Evan's parking lot for citicizing Bush in 2004. There are some pretty wacko conservatives in our ranks. I had just bought a Buick Century and someone put a Pro-Choice bumper sticker on my car when parked in the parking lot at church. It was VERY difficult to get off. I was even removed from the preaching roster because I didn't agree with the politics of the pastor (even though I said nothing political over the pulpit and he did every chance he could get). I agree with you, they were idiots.

[Aquila]

Hey... we never resolved the issue of what to do with women who procured and paid for someone to murder their unborn baby. We never resolved what to do with those who drive them to the scene of the crime or those who are aware of the murder and don't report it to the authorities. And we have to examine the fact that there isn't a statute of limitations on murder.

[Baron1710]

Hey... we never resolved the issue of what to do with women who procured and paid for someone to murder their unborn baby. We never resolved what to do with those who drive them to the scene of the crime or those who are aware of the murder and don't report it to the authorities. And we have to examine the fact that there isn't a statute of limitations on murder.

Once again you know so little about the law. Addressing your last statement first are you familiar with a little part of the Constitution that deals with ex post facto laws?

I already addressed your first statement you thought that the law was "stupid" remember?

[DividedThigh]

The logic:

People who think abortion is murder should support abortion because abortion reduces the number of abortions and therefore saves more babies from abortion.

those that oppose abortion are actully more supportive of child murder because opposing abortion leads to higher rates of abortion.


its complex people! obviously, i must go back and review that critical, cynical thinking class i took, lol

[Cindy]

There are too many forms of birth control available to any woman for abortion to be an option.
We need more personal accountability and repsonsibility, and less abortion clinics and doctors willing to take lives of the unborn!
No matter who you vote for.

[tstew]

Oh stop it and get real! Your first two sentences are ludicrous. I don't know anyone that would attack someone over the way they would vote, exept for idiots.

CN, in all fairness I have seen people attacked many times for how they say they will vote.

[Aquila]

Once again you know so little about the law. Addressing your last statement first are you familiar with a little part of the Constitution that deals with ex post facto laws?

I already addressed your first statement you thought that the law was "stupid" remember?

The fact is if abortion is MURDER the woman is an accomplice. This isn't prostitution...we're talking what you call MURDER.

[DividedThigh]

well i havent, but i dont do that, lol

[Aquila]

There are too many forms of birth control available to any woman for abortion to be an option.
We need more personal accountability and repsonsibility, and less abortion clinics and doctors willing to take lives of the unborn!
No matter who you vote for.

I fully agree.

On a side note...more can be done to combat abortion on the local level than at the Federal level. ;)

[Baron1710]

The fact is if abortion is MURDER the woman is an accomplice. This isn't prostitution...we're talking what you call MURDER.

Again you refuse to understand the facts of legislation. The point is to eliminate abortion how can one who votes for those who ensure its longevity complain about women not being prosecuted for it?

[Aquila]

Again you refuse to understand the facts of legislation. The point is to eliminate abortion how can one who votes for those who ensure its longevity complain about women not being prosecuted for it?

Oh great legislative one, please inform us little guys at the bottom why a woman should get by with murder seeing that you insist it's murder!

You betray your own morality. If it's murder she's an accomplice.

[Baron1710]

Oh great legislative one, please inform us little guys at the bottom why a woman should get by with murder seeing that you insist it's murder!

You betray your own morality. If it's murder she's an accomplice.

Thanks for finally acknowledging the gulf between us.

I don't betray any morality. My goal would be to reduce abortion as much as possible. Murder is a legal term, you are trying to use it as a moral term and then turn around and prosecute from a legal term of art. She cannot be an accomplice if the Legislation is written to protect her.

[Aquila]

Also, riddle me this Batman…. Are the laws you’re proposing to protect women or to codify the validity of the unborn’s right to live? Are these laws targeted at “protecting women” or at “protecting the unborn”? Because so far it seems to me that you still see the unborn as blobs of goo and the real effort is veiled in the assertion that you’re trying to “protect women”.

And if you really think these laws will reduce the abortion rate you're disconnected from reality. lol

[U376977]

You obviously missed the point. Abortion, war, crime, and the death penalty are just social evils that are going to be with us until Christ comes. We do well to minimize the damage done while maintaining a grip on the reality that these things aren't going to go away.

And the best way to do "minimize" the damage is to FIRST make it illegal.

[Baron1710]

Also, riddle me this Batman…. Are the laws you’re proposing to protect women or to codify the validity of the unborn’s right to live? Are these laws targeted at “protecting women” or at “protecting the unborn”? Because so far it seems to me that you still see the unborn as blobs of goo and the real effort is veiled in the assertion that you’re trying to “protect women”.

And if you really think these laws will reduce the abortion rate you're disconnected from reality. lol

You my friend are the one disconnected. The first post on this thread shows the threat pro-lifers are to dems.

I am not interested in a philosophical law, I am interested in one that works. By outlawing abortion and holding the Doctor responsible for the crime because it will damage the woman having the abortion has no less value than if you punished the women. By outlawing it and prosecuting doctors it would be protecting the unborn. If you are the one being protected you don't care who is punished to keep them from killing you.

You have to understand that to produce effective legislation you have to have legislation that is enforceable. I know this is a little over your head but try to grasp it.

[Aquila]

You my friend are the one disconnected. The first post on this thread shows the threat pro-lifers are to dems.

I am not interested in a philosophical law, I am interested in one that works. By outlawing abortion and holding the Doctor responsible for the crime because it will damage the woman having the abortion has no less value than if you punished the women. By outlawing it and prosecuting doctors it would be protecting the unborn. If you are the one being protected you don't care who is punished to keep them from killing you.

You have to understand that to produce effective legislation you have to have legislation that is enforceable. I know this is a little over your head but try to grasp it.

Okay, I'll play your silly little game...

What goes into "prosecuting doctors"? What are they charged for and what are the penalties?

[Baron1710]

Okay, I'll play your silly little game...

What goes into "prosecuting doctors"? What are they charged for and what are the penalties?

As far as I am concerned loss of their medical license and 1 year behind bars would be sufficient.

[DividedThigh]

i believe manslaughter is 25 yrs as a fed statute, that would do just fine imho, dt

[DividedThigh]

i see i am a hard man, but sometimes that is what it takes, lol, dt

[Baron1710]

i see i am a hard man, but sometimes that is what it takes, lol, dt

No, there wouldn't be many if any prosecutions. If a doctors spends $200,000 to get a medical degree he isn't going to throw it away for a $2,000 abortion.

[DividedThigh]

No, there wouldn't be many if any prosecutions. If a doctors spends $200,000 to get a medical degree he isn't going to throw it away for a $2,000 abortion.

that is true, i agreee, but what about the poor libs who want it, just kidding, i dont think they should have it either, dt

[Aquila]

As far as I am concerned loss of their medical license and 1 year behind bars would be sufficient.

For murder? That's like putting the value of human life on par with traffic violations or something isn't it?

[Aquila]

i believe manslaughter is 25 yrs as a fed statute, that would do just fine imho, dt

While we might have some definite disagreements, at least you're consistant. If it's the taking of a human life...and if we are to codify it we have to take it all the way if possible.

[Aquila]

Baron...are all abortion providers licensed doctors?

[Baron1710]

For murder? That's like putting the value of human life on par with traffic violations or something isn't it?

See your focus is all off, is it about punishing someone or saving lives?

[Baron1710]

Baron...are all abortion providers licensed doctors?

If not then they are practicing without a license and can be prosecuted for that.

[Aquila]

See your focus is all off, is it about punishing someone or saving lives?

That's not going to save lives. Are all abortion providers licensed doctors?

[Baron1710]

That's not going to save lives. Are all abortion providers licensed doctors?

See previous post.

[Aquila]

I don't believe every state requires abortion providers to be licensed "doctors". I'll have to look into that one to be more sure.

But what do you do when it goes underground?

The issue I have is that you're just slapping some folks on the wrist and calling it justice. And to make matters worse...you have NO intention on addressing the issues women face that cause them to feel they need to choose abortion. Frankly, you sound like you don't even care.

Anyway, there's no way any antiabortion law like this will get traction in the US. The moment they try to prosecute a doctor under these laws civil rights leaders will make martyrs out of them. And I don't care how conservative the court, the court will rule on the side of individual liberty.

It's not going to change. You're just manipulating us.

[Baron1710]

That's not going to save lives. Are all abortion providers licensed doctors?

Actually that varies by state but any surgical abortion does require a licensed physician however all you need in states that don't require a medical doctor during the very early stages is a similar punishment. Abortion is a money making industry and going to jail for a year would dissuade most people from attempting it

[Baron1710]

I don't believe every state requires abortion providers to be licensed "doctors". I'll have to look into that one to be more sure.

But what do you do when it goes underground?

The issue I have is that you're just slapping some folks on the wrist and calling it justice. And to make matters worse...you have NO intention on addressing the issues women face that cause them to feel they need to choose abortion. Frankly, you sound like you don't even care.

Anyway, there's no way any antiabortion law like this will get traction in the US. The moment they try to prosecute a doctor under these laws civil rights leaders will make martyrs out of them. And I don't care how conservative the court, the court will rule on the side of individual liberty.

It's not going to change. You're just manipulating us.

First, you haven't asked about addressing the issue these women are facing. Second I have faced it first hand so I have much more compassion than you think. Third, I not only oppose I also have given money, clothing, blankets, etc. to local crisis pregnancy centers. Finally It is NEVER the governments job to provide alternatives.

[Aquila]

Bro....you're living a fantasy. While you're concepts appear on the surface to be more pragmatic than most I've heard, they'll never outlaw abortion in this country. We as a society have to address the issues women face rather it be through social policies, private efforts, or both. We've seen this tired agenda go nowhere for 30 years now. I'm tired of being manipulated to vote for men who send jobs oversease or break the treasury causing layoffs and nearly put my family under a bridge every four years.

Do you know what it feels like to train an Indian contractor who eventually takes your job? They gave those work visas away like they were candy.

Sorry, I just don't believe you or buy your position any more. I hear you...but nothing ever happens or ever will. I just want to serve the Lord and have a job, a home, and a family. If a woman aborts her baby for no reason, I believe God's gonna get her. Her only hope is repentance. Period.

[LadyRev]

He's right. It's not the government's job to force a woman to give birth in effort to some how punish her for her improper behaviors, wrong though they may be. Society, including Government, should reach out with programs, efforts, and initiatives to help her and encourage her to choose life and raise her children. She's made a mistake, and too many prolife people want to force her to give birth and abandon her by cutting her WIC, health insurance, etc.... just to make an example out of her.

She she she she she! Its always SHE that should be punished or she that made the mistake or she that should have made a better choice, or she that should have been taught better, etc, etc.

How about teaching the HEs that fathering children out of wedlock is NOT the right way to prove one's manhood?

How about punishing the HEs that run around making as many babies as possible with various women and use their total number of children as bragging material?

How about teaching the HEs to make better choices and be better examples and leaders to their families and fellow males instead of simply following their hormones and the worldly crowd?

I'm so sick of this stupid nonsense of blaming the women all the time.

Heres an incredible revelation Chris - Very few women are capable of OVERPOWERING a man to force him to have sex with her. And if the man is too weak to resist tempatation, thats HIS PROBLEM, not hers.

[rgcraig]

She she she she she! Its always SHE that should be punished or she that made the mistake or she that should have made a better choice, or she that should have been taught better, etc, etc.

How about teaching the HEs that fathering children out of wedlock is NOT the right way to prove one's manhood?

How about punishing the HEs that run around making as many babies as possible with various women and use their total number of children as bragging material?

How about teaching the HEs to make better choices and be better examples and leaders to their families and fellow males instead of simply following their hormones and the worldly crowd?

I'm so sick of this stupid nonsense of blaming the women all the time.

Heres an incredible revelation Chris - Very few women are capable of OVERPOWERING a man to force him to have sex with her. And if the man is too weak to resist tempatation, thats HIS PROBLEM, not hers.

You GO GIRL!!!!!

[Baron1710]

She she she she she! Its always SHE that should be punished or she that made the mistake or she that should have made a better choice, or she that should have been taught better, etc, etc.

How about teaching the HEs that fathering children out of wedlock is NOT the right way to prove one's manhood?

How about punishing the HEs that run around making as many babies as possible with various women and use their total number of children as bragging material?

How about teaching the HEs to make better choices and be better examples and leaders to their families and fellow males instead of simply following their hormones and the worldly crowd?

I'm so sick of this stupid nonsense of blaming the women all the time.

Heres an incredible revelation Chris - Very few women are capable of OVERPOWERING a man to force him to have sex with her. And if the man is too weak to resist tempatation, thats HIS PROBLEM, not hers.

This is so true.

[Aquila]

She she she she she! Its always SHE that should be punished or she that made the mistake or she that should have made a better choice, or she that should have been taught better, etc, etc.

How about teaching the HEs that fathering children out of wedlock is NOT the right way to prove one's manhood?

How about punishing the HEs that run around making as many babies as possible with various women and use their total number of children as bragging material?

How about teaching the HEs to make better choices and be better examples and leaders to their families and fellow males instead of simply following their hormones and the worldly crowd?

I'm so sick of this stupid nonsense of blaming the women all the time.

Heres an incredible revelation Chris - Very few women are capable of OVERPOWERING a man to force him to have sex with her. And if the man is too weak to resist tempatation, thats HIS PROBLEM, not hers.

Great points. Men aren't being held responsible for their actions. It is all being pinned on women. But sadly, that's not going to change either. Welcome to this fallen hell hole called planet Earth.

The most we can do is raise our families and our children to do what's right. Government isn't the answer. I think it might be able to help sometimes, but even then, it often causes more problems than not.