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KWSS1976
09-17-2008, 11:33 AM
Hi all I am new to the fourm just to tell ya a little about myself I have been going to an apostolic/pentecostal chuch since meeting my wife 15 years ago and she thinks I am not saved because I have not spoke in tongues. I have heard my fair share of acts 2:38 my pastor believes in the inital evidence of speaking in tongues when ond recieves the holyghost and since you have to have the spirit to be saved they say you do not have the spirt unless you speak in tongues. I was suprised to hear this from my wife I have just started reading the bible for myself and I see things diffrently than she does but she will not listen to what i read to her in the bible. I hear some in our church speak in tongues I go home and read about tongues especially acts 2 and the tongues they spoke were an understood languge so the tongues I hear spoken in church are not the acts accounts of tongues because those languges they spoke were understood in acts so is this the thinking of all apostolic churches to think one is not saved unless they speak in tongues is this normal apostolic teaching. So basically my own wife does not belived I am saved even though I repented and was baptised in jesus name.

Michael Phelps
09-17-2008, 11:42 AM
Hi all I am new to the fourm just to tell ya a little about myself I have been going to an apostolic/pentecostal chuch since meeting my wife 15 years ago and she thinks I am not saved because I have not spoke in tongues. I have heard my fair share of acts 2:38 my pastor believes in the inital evidence of speaking in tongues when ond recieves the holyghost and since you have to have the spirit to be saved they say you do not have the spirt unless you speak in tongues. I was suprised to hear this from my wife I have just started reading the bible for myself and I see things diffrently than she does but she will not listen to what i read to her in the bible. I hear some in our church speak in tongues I go home and read about tongues especially acts 2 and the tongues they spoke were an understood languge so the tongues I hear spoken in church are not the acts accounts of tongues because those languges they spoke were understood in acts so is this the thinking of all apostolic churches to think one is not saved unless they speak in tongues is this normal apostolic teaching. So basically my own wife does not belived I am saved even though I repented and was baptised in jesus name.

Welcome! Glad you found us.

I'll let others respond with their opinions, but if I could offer a friendly suggestion, it would be helpful if you would punctuate your paragraph a bit. The run on sentences make it somewhat confusing.

Thanks again for being a part of our forum family!

Sister Alvear
09-17-2008, 12:14 PM
Welcome and you will receive many opinions...stay online!

Cindy
09-17-2008, 12:36 PM
Welcome.

Timmy
09-17-2008, 01:00 PM
Welcome and you will receive many opinions...stay online!

Yes, and be sure to ignore mine! :whistle

tamor
09-17-2008, 01:33 PM
Hi there. :waving

ronharvey
09-17-2008, 01:46 PM
Hi all I am new to the forum.
Just to tell ya a little about myself I have been going to an Apostolic/pentecostal church since meeting my wife 15 years ago and she thinks I am not saved because I have not spoke in tongues.

I have heard my fair share of Acts 2:38 my Pastor believes in the initial evidence of speaking in tongues when one receives the Holy Ghost and since you have to have the spirit to be saved they say you do not have the Spirit unless you speak in tongues.

I was surprised to hear this from my wife.

I have just started reading the bible for myself and I see things differently than she does but she will not listen to what i read to her in the bible.

I hear some in our church speak in tongues.

I go home and read about tongues especially Acts 2 and the tongues they spoke were an understood language so the tongues I hear spoken in church are not the Acts accounts of tongues because those languages they spoke were understood in Acts.

So, is this the thinking of all apostolic churches to think one is not saved unless they speak in tongues is this normal Apostolic teaching?

So basically my own wife does not believe I am saved even though I repented and was baptized in Jesus' name.

I took the liberty of clearing up your post a bit so it will be easer to answer.

Seems no one wants to answer you directly huh?

Did your wife 'speak in tongues' when you two married?
If she did, this is the problem people in your position encounter when persons are unequally yoked together.

Inwardly one becomes confused since up till now everything seemed ok.

My eldest married that way. I was upset with her pastor because of this very issue. My son in law believed the message and did 'pray through' a month later.

Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not.

You cannot isolate a single incident in Acts and use it as a 'proof' text.
You will be able to see other text in Acts where it says they knew the ones Peter laid hands on received the Holy Ghost "For they heard them speak with tongues..."

Keep reading and just accept that when you receive the Holy Ghost; you will speak with tongues; not the other way around.

Ron

KWSS1976
09-17-2008, 02:42 PM
sorry ron i sent ya an email stating your son but you said your daugther sorry

ronharvey
09-17-2008, 05:23 PM
I don't answer PM to questions posted on a thread because all persons can learn from our discussions. If the content of the PM is NOT what is on the thread, then I will answer the PM.


I really cannot tell you when my wife last spoke in tongues

The question was did she have the HG and spoke with tongues at the time you two were married?


but how can tongues be the initial evidence of the Holy Ghost when Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost in the book of Luke?

Elizabeth was under the Old covenant as was John the Baptist.

Many persons were 'filled' with the Spirit, prophesied and did miracles, yet not received the New covenant infilling that came mixed with the blood of Christ and even though the prophets had the spirit of Christ (messiah) in them, they did not speak with tongues because it was not a 'sign' of the infilling back then. James speaks a lot of the unruliness of the tongue and that it is the last member to be tamed; we can draw our clues from this.


She did not speak in tongues and people were saved in Acts and did not speak in tongues example: the Philippian jailer and Lydia

Again, Elizabeth did not need to speak with tongues.

The Jailer falls into the same category as the Ethiopian eunuch.
Acts 8:35 "Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus."

Acts 8:36 "And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?"

There is not one thing in this text showing where Philip told the eunuch to be baptized. it ONLY says Philip "preached unto him Jesus."

Yet, the eunuch asks; "See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?"

It then becomes unnecessary to question each and every occurrence in Acts because by the evidence contained elsewhere in Acts a complete picture is painted.

Let me tell a real happening I experienced.

A pastor in La Puente, California (Ted Molander) brought a group of South Americans to our church direct from the plane.

The Native Pastor preached in their native language and pastor Molander did the interpretation for those of us who did not understand this South American language.

At the alter call many of these visitors were praying for the Holy Ghost. I was praying with one man and he was praying in his native South American tongue.

He began saying "Thank you Jesus!" "Glory to God," "Hallelujah!" In perfect English.

I stopped him and said, no English, no English and started explaining to him that when the Holy Ghost comes it will be in a language he never learned.

He looked at me with that "Human in the Headlights" look but nodded and we started again...

This happened two more times, the third time as I was speaking to him a hand was laid on my shoulder.

I looked up and there was Brother Molander, My pastor and the South American pastor.

The South American pastor smiled and said, son, he doesn't speak English.

The man had the Holy Ghost and was speaking in tongues, English, a language he never learned.

The text never tells us WHAT language we will speak, only that it is one we never learned.

This is why the 16 nations of Jews were amazed that all these Galileans were speaking the 16 different national languages.

Yet, when the gospel itself was preached by Peter, he spoke with a language they all understood, no 'unknown' tongues were used then.

Ron

ronharvey
09-17-2008, 06:15 PM
also when you said your son prayed through you gave this verse in replying to me (Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not)


did your son not believe because I believe I believed before I even went to a pentecostal church I believe in Jesus and I know I have his spirit in me and I do not have to prove that to anyone by speaking in tongues.

He is my Son-in-Law (he's a good on too!)

It is not a matter of "proving" something to anyone but, according to your statement here; that you believe, Jesus (The one you believe in) said...

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;"

So, you know you have the Spirit in you, how do you know? You believe?

Every easy believing church forces their followers to just "accept the Lord as your personal Saviour" but never explain that we shall be judged by the Word.

"Man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God"

Is it really that much for God to ask?
That we simply yield our tongue to him and allow his Spirit through us to speak?

Plain and simple my friend, If you have received the Spirit's infilling; you WILL speak with new tongues.

Then you (Like Cornelius' household and my Son-in-Law) though you believed prior to Peter's coming (hearing the truth) will embrace all the truth you can and allow God to fulfill his Word in you.

I cannot imagine someone not wanting all God has promised or offered.

Ron

KWSS1976
09-17-2008, 07:38 PM
When they spoke in tongues in the book of Acts it was an understood langauge the people around understood what they were saying. I have never heard anyone in church speak in tongues and understand it. If in acts the first time they heard them speak in tongues and they understood it which would be the same as interpreting tongues as in 1 corithians then all the rest of the tongues in acts are the same it clearly tells you that it was an understood langauge. Now if you use acts 2:38 plan of salvation with the evidence of speaking in other tongues then someone has to understand what you are saying. I don't go off of the new covenant and old covenant you take the 10 commandments we obey these commands and they are in the old testament so why divide the two when we talk about elizabeth having the holyghost and not speak in tongues and no to mention the thief on the cross.God is not the author of confusion he would not tell someone to be saved this away and then turn around and change his mind. The tongues were an understood language in acts and god promises his holyspirt not tongues. That is why paul state in 1 corths. that someone must interpret if there is no interpretaton the person should keep quiet. Don't forbid speaking in tongues as in 1 corths. now this verse I have no problem with because paul has alraeady told us that there needs to be an interpretor. All I am saying is the tongues being spoken today that I hear I cannot understand so were are those tongues at because it was not the tongues in Acts were apostolics and pentecostals take the plan of salvation. And please tell me how a person born without a tongue can speak in tongues. I am not bashing the pentecostals or apostolics after all I go to an apostolic church I am trying to understand the tongues that are spoken in church out loud. Just trying to find those tongues in the bible. And please do not tell me the tongues in acts and coritians are diffrent it does not say they are diffrent so we have to say they are the same because it does not tell us any diffrent.

Timmy
09-17-2008, 07:48 PM
Spoken tongues are iffy, at best, as evidence. Tongues of fire, now. That would be another story.

KWSS1976
09-17-2008, 07:53 PM
I have tried to explain this to other petecostals but all they say is go pray read it again like I do not know what I am reading. I might not can punctuate correctly but I know what I am reading.

KWSS1976
09-17-2008, 08:00 PM
Also if I were to go to any other denomination baptist,methiodist,etc, and we read it together we would come up with the same thing which brings me back to the whole petecostal/apostolics think they are the only ones going to heaven. And the reason I say that is my wife and what I have heard form others reserching the apostolic/petecostal religion. I do not believe in so called easy believism you have to live a godly life and resist the flesh and that is not easy. I am sure anyone will agree with me there.

Joelel
09-17-2008, 08:18 PM
He is my Son-in-Law (he's a good on too!)

It is not a matter of "proving" something to anyone but, according to your statement here; that you believe, Jesus (The one you believe in) said...

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;"

So, you know you have the Spirit in you, how do you know? You believe?

Every easy believing church forces their followers to just "accept the Lord as your personal Saviour" but never explain that we shall be judged by the Word.

"Man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God"

Is it really that much for God to ask?
That we simply yield our tongue to him and allow his Spirit through us to speak?

Plain and simple my friend, If you have received the Spirit's infilling; you WILL speak with new tongues.

Then you (Like Cornelius' household and my Son-in-Law) though you believed prior to Peter's coming (hearing the truth) will embrace all the truth you can and allow God to fulfill his Word in you.

I cannot imagine someone not wanting all God has promised or offered.

Ron

If you believe Mark 16:17-18 that you must speak in tongues then you must believe all sign will follow.

Joelel
09-17-2008, 08:23 PM
When they spoke in tongues in the book of Acts it was an understood langauge the people around understood what they were saying. I have never heard anyone in church speak in tongues and understand it. If in acts the first time they heard them speak in tongues and they understood it which would be the same as interpreting tongues as in 1 corithians then all the rest of the tongues in acts are the same it clearly tells you that it was an understood langauge. Now if you use acts 2:38 plan of salvation with the evidence of speaking in other tongues then someone has to understand what you are saying. I don't go off of the new covenant and old covenant you take the 10 commandments we obey these commands and they are in the old testament so why divide the two when we talk about elizabeth having the holyghost and not speak in tongues and no to mention the thief on the cross.God is not the author of confusion he would not tell someone to be saved this away and then turn around and change his mind. The tongues were an understood language in acts and god promises his holyspirt not tongues. That is why paul state in 1 corths. that someone must interpret if there is no interpretaton the person should keep quiet. Don't forbid speaking in tongues as in 1 corths. now this verse I have no problem with because paul has alraeady told us that there needs to be an interpretor. All I am saying is the tongues being spoken today that I hear I cannot understand so were are those tongues at because it was not the tongues in Acts were apostolics and pentecostals take the plan of salvation. And please tell me how a person born without a tongue can speak in tongues. I am not bashing the pentecostals or apostolics after all I go to an apostolic church I am trying to understand the tongues that are spoken in church out loud. Just trying to find those tongues in the bible. And please do not tell me the tongues in acts and coritians are diffrent it does not say they are diffrent so we have to say they are the same because it does not tell us any diffrent.

You got it right.

Joelel
09-17-2008, 08:25 PM
I have tried to explain this to other petecostals but all they say is go pray read it again like I do not know what I am reading. I might not can punctuate correctly but I know what I am reading.

Most will not hear you.

Joelel
09-17-2008, 08:51 PM
God said they would prophesy. Acts.2:16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.

Did God say they will speak in tongues when filled with the Holy Ghost ? NO.When people are filled with the Holy Ghost do they prophecy? Some may speak in tongues,some may prophecy,some may do both.Some may witness in tongues,some may witness in prophecy and some in prophecy and tongues.

Acts1:8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth

Please note what happened here.Acts4:4.First the disciples were preaching and got 5,000 new believers but they were not filled with the Holy Ghost yet.Then later they went back to their own company of 5,000 new believers and prayed for them and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and spoke the word of God with boldness (Prophecy).They didn't speak with tongues when they were filled this first time, verse 23-31

23: And being let go, they went to their own company,(5000 new believers) and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them.29: And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they (NOTE they NOT US) may speak thy word

30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.:31: And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they(5000 new believers) were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.(prophecy)

(Here they spoke in tongues and prophesied.)Acts 19:5: When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.6: And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

1Cor14:[5] I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying

There are two kind of gifts of tongues as Paul wrote,)1Cor.13[1] Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.(They spoke in tongues of men on the day of Pentecost when filled with the Holy Ghost)

On the day of Pentecost they were prophesying in tongues and it was being interpreted in 17 different tongues from the mouths of the speakers to the ears of the hearers

(Ways tongues is interpreted,)1 Cor.14: 6. Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

(On the day of Pentecost it was interpreted because all the hearers understood in their own language.So there was the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues and prophecy.Three gifts on the day of Pentecost.)Acts2:[8] And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

We know that all who are filled with the Holy Ghost don't speak with tongues because Paul ask these questions.1 Cor.12:27: Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28:And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues .29:Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?30: Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?31:But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.(The answer to all of these questions is NO)

This is what's going on in many church assemblies today,1 Cor.14:23: If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad (crazy)?

This is what should be taking place in the church,1 Cor.14:24: But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:25: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth

On the day of pentecost when they spoke in tongues it was understood. Today when people speaks in tongues 99% of the time it is not understood

Joelel
09-17-2008, 08:52 PM
TRUTH is. The following scripture it don't say they spoke in tongues or did anything.Acts 8:16: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)17: Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost

Acts9:17: And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.18: And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized

Acts2:41: Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.42: And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers

Different signs follow in each persons life.Mark16:17: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18: They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover

On the day of Pentecost tongues was understood.What did Paul say about tongues that were not understood?Paul wrote in Cor. 14: 1: Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.2: For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.3: But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.4: He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.5: I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying

18: I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:19: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.20: Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men

Most will agree what Isa.wrore was talking about the pouring out of the Holy Ghost.Isa.28:11: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.12: To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Then Paul writting about the gift of tongues referred to Isa.1 Cor. 14:21:In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.22: Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Paul said here very clearly, with the lips of believers who speak other tongues God will speak to unbelievers and it is a sign to the unbeliever and after all of that they still will not hear God, says the Lord. This is what took place on the Day of Pentecost. Therefore the tongues they spoke in on the day of Pentecost was the gift of tongues

Here in Cor. When Paul was talking about the gift of tongues it is very clear he was talking about two kind of tongues because he said, 13:1. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal

(Tongues of angels is when you pray.)1Cor.14[1] Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.[2] For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries'

(Even when a person prays in tongues and others are around he should pray to interpret.)1 Cor14:[13] Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.[14] For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.[15] What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also

(When praying)[16] Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?[17] For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified

(If any man speaks in a tongue he is only to speak in two or three sentence and if no one understands to inter pert he should keep it down to a whisper and talk to God) 1 Cor.14:[27] If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.[28] But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

So we find that the Holy Ghost is going to speak out loud though people in the church assemblies and no one will understand.Then that person if no interpretation is given is to keep the tongue talking down to a whisper and speak to God.

We speak in tongues of angels and men and groanings and stammering lips.Isa.28:11: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.12: To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear

We don't make intercession in the Spirit. The Spirit makes intercession for us.Rom.8[26] Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered

Joelel
09-17-2008, 08:55 PM
We see here the apostles were astonished because God gave the gentiles the Holy Ghost.We see in the scripture that tongues is a sign to the unbelievers.Who was the unbelievers here ? The ones who didn't believe God gave the Holy Ghost to the gentiles,they were unbelievers because they didn't believe God was giving the Holy Ghost to the gentiles.So tongues was a sign to the apostles that God gave the Holy Ghost to the gentiles.You see the apostles were not unbelievers in that they didn't believe in God but they were unbelievers because they didn't believe God was giving the Holy Ghost to the gentiles.So many times people speak in tongues because they don't believe they are filled unless they do speak in tongues.

Acts10:[44] While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
[45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[46] For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
[47] Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
[48] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days

1 Cor.14:22] Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe

ronharvey
09-17-2008, 08:59 PM
When they spoke in tongues in the book of Acts it was an understood language the people around understood what they were saying.


Not in all cases, but when they did, there was NO interpretation needed.
STILL, the ones who spoke, spoke in a language they NEVER LEARNED.
That fact is clear even in denominations that call tongue talking of the devil.


I have never heard anyone in church speak in tongues and understand it.
It is rare, I admit but it does happen. I am an 'ear' witness to this.


If in acts the first time they heard them speak in tongues and they understood it which would be the same as interpreting tongues as in 1st Corinthians

Really? Please point out in the text WHO did the Interpreting?


then all the rest of the tongues in Acts are the same it clearly tells you that it was an understood language.


Then? "Then" would be a conclusion based on a prior statement.
Please name all the interpretors in each text in Acts.
If there is not one, then it is NOT as in 1st Corinthians.


Now if you use Acts 2:38 plan of salvation with the evidence of speaking in other tongues then someone has to understand what you are saying.


Another conjecture. Isaiah tells us about bringing Israel to jealousy with stammering lips and another tongue

Isaiah 28:11 "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he (God) speak to this people."

Isaiah 33:19 "Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand."



I don't go off of the New Covenant and Old Covenant you take the 10 commandments we obey these commands and they are in the Old Testament so why divide the two when we talk about Elizabeth having the Holy Ghost and not speak in tongues and no to mention the thief on the cross.


Because The NEW COVENANT is in Christ's BLOOD.
Jesus said he would be IN us.
Paul said; it is Christ IN us.

Jesus was the Man WITH us and now is the Holy Ghost IN us (Jesus' words).

There was no outpouring of the Holy Ghost until AFTER the resurrection of Christ, on the Day of Pentecost when he said he would come to us.


God is not the author of confusion he would not tell someone to be saved this way and then turn around and change his mind.


Amen to that. Selah.


The tongues were an understood language in Acts


Dealt with above...


and God promises his Holy Spirit not tongues.


Correct,
He promises healing but no sign of?
He promises peace but no sign of?
He promises; you name it but no sign?

1 Corinthians 14:22 "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."

Isaiah 11:10 "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Isaiah 28:11 "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people."

Isaiah 28:12 "To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear."

Are you listening?

All are prophecies of Christ being the SIGN, The REST, what the Gentiles will seek after.

All these are summed up in Christ during the book of Acts which came before any of the other letters as a GUIDE for SALVATION to Theophilus (a Gentile), the friend of Luke (a Gentile). It was a follow up to the Gospel, Luke had sent earlier.

None of the other letters address the subject of salvation e.g. who, what, when, where, or why; except Luke.

The other letters were written to already established assemblies.

Acts shows HOW they were established and what the core doctrine was. HOW to be saved or whether or not to speak in tongues was NEVER in question (Acts 15).


That is why Paul states in 1st Corinthians that someone must interpret if there is no interpretation the person should keep quiet.


No, see the fore going argument. Point out the Interpretor in Acts as you insist there must be.


Don't forbid speaking in tongues as in 1st Corinthians now this verse I have no problem with because Paul has already told us that there needs to be an interpretor.


It is not referring to that, it is referring to the governing of this gift's operation in the local assembly to avoid confusion in the assembly (Read your context).


All I am saying is the tongues being spoken today that I hear I cannot understand so were are those tongues at because it was not the tongues in Acts were Apostolics and Pentecostals take the plan of salvation.


I know you believe this, it is not a scriptural approach, it is an opinion based on your reading the Book of Acts and 1st Corinthians out of their context.


And please tell me how a person born without a tongue can speak in tongues.


The same way 100's of mutes do it, with their mouths, 1st Corinthians tells us God understands it, that's all that counts.


I am not bashing the Pentecostals or Apostolics after all I go to an Apostolic church I am trying to understand the tongues that are spoken in church out loud.

You need to stop, your trying to overcome the teaching of your prime objection text.

1 Corinthians 14:2 "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."



Just trying to find those tongues in the bible.


You found them, see:

1 Corinthians 14:2 "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."


And please do not tell me the tongues in Acts and Corinthians are different it does not say they are different so we have to say they are the same because it does not tell us any different.


Yes, it does. Study a little more and place them into context.

Ok, I'll let Paul say it...
1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

Ron

Joelel
09-17-2008, 08:59 PM
1 Cor 12:1: Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2: Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3: Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Paul said here there are,

4: Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5: And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6: And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7: But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Paul said here to one is given one gift and to another an other gift.Everyone has different gifts and God gives the gifts according to his will.Everyone don't have all gifts.

8: For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9: To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10: To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

ronharvey
09-17-2008, 09:01 PM
If you believe Mark 16:17-18 that you must speak in tongues then you must believe all sign will follow.

Yes, I do.

When they are needed, they will.

Ron

ronharvey
09-17-2008, 09:02 PM
You got it right.

You got it wrong.

Ron

Joelel
09-17-2008, 09:03 PM
This tongue talking was referred to as prophecy,Why ? Because the people understood what was being said.They were giving prophecy to these people in their own tongue.The following scripture will teach us this.When the oneness pentecostals say they are filled with the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues no one understands.

Acts2:

1: And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2: And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3: And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5: And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6: Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7: And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8: And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9: Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10: Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11: Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12: And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13: Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14: But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy

Joelel
09-17-2008, 09:06 PM
Yes, I do.

When they are needed, they will.

Ron

Yes and tongues was needed on the day of pentecost because God was speaking to about 120 in their own tongue.

Joelel
09-17-2008, 09:09 PM
Believe what God says NOT man.God said they would prophesy and have dreams and visions when he pours out his Spirit.Acts.2:16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.

The word prophecy means to preach and teach and fortell.We all prophecy or witness.We prophecy to people in their own tongue (language) as they did on the day of pentecost and other times as written in the book of acts or we prophecy to people in our own tongue (language).Acts1:8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Joelel
09-17-2008, 09:16 PM
Hi Everyone,Paul wrote there are two kind of the gift of tongues.One is tongues of men that they spoke in on the day of pentecost and other times when they were filled with the Holy Ghost as we read in the book of acts.Here when they spoke in tongues they were not speaking to God,they were speaking to the people in their own tongue and there was about 17 different tongues on the day of pentecost.

The second kind of tongues is the tongues of angels and this is the gift to be able to speak to God in prayer.Even when a person speake to God in tongues of angels he should pray that he can interpertate so he can understand and learn how to pray.Now after I have prayed in tongues and the Lord taught me how to pray and what to pray for, I now pray in my own tongue many times with the same effect as praying in tongues.

The first kind of tongues of men that I wrote about is giving prophecy to people in their own tongue.This is the purpose of tongues of men.The purpose is to preach,teach or fortell events.The word prophecy means to preach teach or fortell events.The purpose of the second tongues of angels is to speak to God .A person may speak in groanings also that serves the same purpose.


Some people say that when a person is filled with the Holy Ghost they will speak in tongues because they are speaking to God and you must speak in tongues to speak to God in the Spirit.That is not true because in the book of Acts they were speaking to man in tongues of man ,NOT tongues of angels and to God.

There are two kind of gifts of tongues as Paul wrote,)1Cor.13[1] Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.(They spoke in tongues of men on the day of Pentecost when filled with the Holy Ghost)

On the day of Pentecost they were prophesying in the peoples tongues and it was being interpreted in 17 different tongues from the mouths of the speakers to the ears of the hearers

(Ways tongues is interpreted,)1 Cor.14: 6. Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

(On the day of Pentecost it was interpreted because all the hearers understood in their own language.So there was the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues and prophecy.Three gifts on the day of Pentecost.)Acts2:[8] And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?


The bottom line is we don't need to speak in tongues to speak to God.We also speak to God in groanings.Did you ever cry,mone,weep,groan in prayer ? That's the Spirit praying for you.The Spirit makes intercession for us.Rom.8[26] Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered


What is Prophecy.The word prophecy meaning is to teach,preach or fortell.We see in the scripture we are all witnesses.We witness when we prophecy.Some witness as the Spirit gives utterance (As the Spirit gives the ability to speak)when they preach,teach or fortell in other tongues that people speak.Some witness,preach,teach or fortell as the Spirit gives the ability in their own tongue.Some witness,preach,teach,fortell in the interpretation of tongues as the Spirit gives the ability.The bottom line is when we are filled with the Holy Ghost we are all made witnesses as the Spirit gives the ability.We may not witness as soon as we are filled but will witness

ronharvey
09-17-2008, 10:41 PM
Yes and tongues was needed on the day of pentecost because God was speaking to about 120 in their own tongue.

Wrong,

Check your syntax. I don't think this is actually what you meant to say.

If it is, your completely wrong.

Ron

Neck
09-17-2008, 10:49 PM
Hi all I am new to the fourm just to tell ya a little about myself I have been going to an apostolic/pentecostal chuch since meeting my wife 15 years ago and she thinks I am not saved because I have not spoke in tongues. I have heard my fair share of acts 2:38 my pastor believes in the inital evidence of speaking in tongues when ond recieves the holyghost and since you have to have the spirit to be saved they say you do not have the spirt unless you speak in tongues. I was suprised to hear this from my wife I have just started reading the bible for myself and I see things diffrently than she does but she will not listen to what i read to her in the bible. I hear some in our church speak in tongues I go home and read about tongues especially acts 2 and the tongues they spoke were an understood languge so the tongues I hear spoken in church are not the acts accounts of tongues because those languges they spoke were understood in acts so is this the thinking of all apostolic churches to think one is not saved unless they speak in tongues is this normal apostolic teaching. So basically my own wife does not belived I am saved even though I repented and was baptised in jesus name.

When you receive the experience for yourself and do less reading about it.

You will never feel the way you do now.

Take a page from the 70's, "Don't knock it until you try it!"

KWSS1976
09-18-2008, 07:59 AM
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


If you quote this verse ron do you drink any deadly thing and handle serpents you cannot pick and choose what you do.

ronharvey
09-18-2008, 12:09 PM
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


If you quote this verse ron do you drink any deadly thing and handle serpents you cannot pick and choose what you do.

The example of serpents is found in Acts. Paul was bitten by a viper that came out of the fire an lived (he should have died).

The deadly thing is prefaced by the word 'IF'.

IF in English is IF, not WHEN.

"If they drink" is in reference to an accident, not an intentional act.

As a child I took my babysitters medication for Parkinson's and was rushed to the hospital where I spent 27 days after I had my stomach pumped. I did not deliberately take them. They had M and M printed on them; I thought they were candy. As a young pre-teen I and my sister dug lots of medications from the dumpster behind this pharmaceutical warehouse.
Being stupid kids we played Hospital and I drank many of these chemicals. I was extremely ill. My mother called for the elders and they prayed for me, I was healed.

It was an accident, I wasn't trying to drink to show people how powerful my God was. If they drink any deadly thing.

Ron

KWSS1976
09-18-2008, 01:36 PM
When you say ron your son inlaw (prayed through) which is a wired term anyway was he praying for the holyghost? Because god said wait for the holyghost to come not pray for the holyghost. I see this all to often people praying for the holyghost there was no praying for the holyghost in the bible anywhere also why pray for the holyghost if god promised it to you as in acts. For the promise is unto you and all your children as far off as the lord our god shall call.

Joelel
09-18-2008, 05:25 PM
Wrong,

Check your syntax. I don't think this is actually what you meant to say.

If it is, your completely wrong.

Ron

Right,there were about 120 filled with the Holy Ghost and God was speaking though them to about 3000.


Acts 2: 1: And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2: And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3: And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5: And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6: Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7: And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8: And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9: Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10: Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11: Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12: And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13: Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14: But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22: Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25: For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28: Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29: Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30: Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31: He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32: This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33: Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34: For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35: Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36: Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41: Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42: And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43: And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44: And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45: And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46: And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47: Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

ronharvey
09-18-2008, 07:37 PM
When you say ron your son inlaw (prayed through) which is a wired term anyway was he praying for the holyghost?


Yes.


Because god said wait for the holyghost to come not pray for the holyghost.


Ok, he said to the 120 to wait, no one else. However what was it they were doing while in the upper room?

Acts 1:14 "These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren."


I see this all to often people praying for the holyghost there was no praying for the holyghost in the bible anywhere also why pray for the holyghost if god promised it to you as in acts.

Acts 1:14 "These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren."


For the promise is unto you and all your children as far off as the lord our god shall call.

Acts 1:14 "These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren."

Acts 4:31 "And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness."

Acts 8:15 "Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost"

Hummm, they prayed; your not better than them right?
I know you don't feel you are; want some of that old time religion?

Pray for it.


Ron

tv1a
09-18-2008, 08:01 PM
Including snake handling.

If you believe Mark 16:17-18 that you must speak in tongues then you must believe all sign will follow.

tv1a
09-18-2008, 08:09 PM
Your point is not proven by pointing out the word "If". I feel you went to Bill Clinton's school of grammar. It all depends on what the word "IS" means. Straining a gnat and swallowing a taradactul.

Many Bible scholars doubt Mark ever wrote the passage in question. Anyway, moving on.

The reason many attempt to explain away the snake part is because they don't want to take snake handling as literal as speaking in tongues. People can use selective reasoning for speaking in tongues. Snake handling is just valid of a sign of a believer as speaking in tongues.


The example of serpents is found in Acts. Paul was bitten by a viper that came out of the fire an lived (he should have died).

The deadly thing is prefaced by the word 'IF'.

IF in English is IF, not WHEN.

"If they drink" is in reference to an accident, not an intentional act.

As a child I took my babysitters medication for Parkinson's and was rushed to the hospital where I spent 27 days after I had my stomach pumped. I did not deliberately take them. They had M and M printed on them; I thought they were candy. As a young pre-teen I and my sister dug lots of medications from the dumpster behind this pharmaceutical warehouse.
Being stupid kids we played Hospital and I drank many of these chemicals. I was extremely ill. My mother called for the elders and they prayed for me, I was healed.

It was an accident, I wasn't trying to drink to show people how powerful my God was. If they drink any deadly thing.

Ron

ronharvey
09-18-2008, 08:16 PM
Including snake handling.

I answered that on a post to someone else.

Ron

ronharvey
09-18-2008, 08:18 PM
Your point is not proven by pointing out the word "If". I feel you went to Bill Clinton's school of grammar. It all depends on what the word "IS" means. Straining a gnat and swallowing a taradactul.

Many Bible scholars doubt Mark ever wrote the passage in question. Anyway, moving on.

The reason many attempt to explain away the snake part is because they don't want to take snake handling as literal as speaking in tongues. People can use selective reasoning for speaking in tongues. Snake handling is just valid of a sign of a believer as speaking in tongues.

'Handled' that answer on a previous post to you.

Ron

KWSS1976
09-18-2008, 08:21 PM
And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

it says they prayed it does not say they prayed for the holyghost they were just praying go told them to wait for the promise now if god tells me to wait for a promise I am not going to pray for it because he promised it to me

ronharvey
09-18-2008, 08:24 PM
Right,there were about 120 filled with the Holy Ghost and God was speaking though them to about 3000.


Acts 2: 1: And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2: And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3: And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5: And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6: Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7: And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8: And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9: Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10: Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11: Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12: And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13: Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14: But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22: Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25: For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28: Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29: Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30: Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31: He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32: This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33: Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34: For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35: Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36: Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41: Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42: And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43: And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44: And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45: And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46: And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47: Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

And Peter ALONE preached the Gospel to them in a known tongue, following the "This (Tongue Talking) is That (Vs16)" in answer to the "What meaneth THIS (Tongue Talking) (Vs12)"
then 3000 were added to the Church.

Ron

Jermyn Davidson
09-18-2008, 11:14 PM
Hi all I am new to the fourm just to tell ya a little about myself I have been going to an apostolic/pentecostal chuch since meeting my wife 15 years ago and she thinks I am not saved because I have not spoke in tongues. I have heard my fair share of acts 2:38 my pastor believes in the inital evidence of speaking in tongues when ond recieves the holyghost and since you have to have the spirit to be saved they say you do not have the spirt unless you speak in tongues. I was suprised to hear this from my wife I have just started reading the bible for myself and I see things diffrently than she does but she will not listen to what i read to her in the bible. I hear some in our church speak in tongues I go home and read about tongues especially acts 2 and the tongues they spoke were an understood languge so the tongues I hear spoken in church are not the acts accounts of tongues because those languges they spoke were understood in acts so is this the thinking of all apostolic churches to think one is not saved unless they speak in tongues is this normal apostolic teaching. So basically my own wife does not belived I am saved even though I repented and was baptised in jesus name.




Hey man,
Welcome here. I understand where your wife is coming from.

Her sentiments were my sentiments up until recently in my life.

If your wife believes that one is not saved until they speak in tongues, it will take God to change her mind.

Don't let the current "confusion" destroy your relationship. God allowed you to marry this woman, His precious daughter. The ball is in God's court.

Seek the God of this experience and He will give you your heart's desire, revealing Himself to you in a new way and saving your marriage from any more turmoil.

Jermyn Davidson
09-19-2008, 01:51 AM
I don't answer PM to questions posted on a thread because all persons can learn from our discussions. If the content of the PM is NOT what is on the thread, then I will answer the PM.



The question was did she have the HG and spoke with tongues at the time you two were married?



Elizabeth was under the Old covenant as was John the Baptist.

Many persons were 'filled' with the Spirit, prophesied and did miracles, yet not received the New covenant infilling that came mixed with the blood of Christ and even though the prophets had the spirit of Christ (messiah) in them, they did not speak with tongues because it was not a 'sign' of the infilling back then. James speaks a lot of the unruliness of the tongue and that it is the last member to be tamed; we can draw our clues from this.



Again, Elizabeth did not need to speak with tongues.

The Jailer falls into the same category as the Ethiopian eunuch.
Acts 8:35 "Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus."

Acts 8:36 "And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?"

There is not one thing in this text showing where Philip told the eunuch to be baptized. it ONLY says Philip "preached unto him Jesus."

Yet, the eunuch asks; "See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?"

It then becomes unnecessary to question each and every occurrence in Acts because by the evidence contained elsewhere in Acts a complete picture is painted.

Let me tell a real happening I experienced.

A pastor in La Puente, California (Ted Molander) brought a group of South Americans to our church direct from the plane.

The Native Pastor preached in their native language and pastor Molander did the interpretation for those of us who did not understand this South American language.

At the alter call many of these visitors were praying for the Holy Ghost. I was praying with one man and he was praying in his native South American tongue.

He began saying "Thank you Jesus!" "Glory to God," "Hallelujah!" In perfect English.

I stopped him and said, no English, no English and started explaining to him that when the Holy Ghost comes it will be in a language he never learned.

He looked at me with that "Human in the Headlights" look but nodded and we started again...

This happened two more times, the third time as I was speaking to him a hand was laid on my shoulder.

I looked up and there was Brother Molander, My pastor and the South American pastor.

The South American pastor smiled and said, son, he doesn't speak English.

The man had the Holy Ghost and was speaking in tongues, English, a language he never learned.

The text never tells us WHAT language we will speak, only that it is one we never learned.

This is why the 16 nations of Jews were amazed that all these Galileans were speaking the 16 different national languages.

Yet, when the gospel itself was preached by Peter, he spoke with a language they all understood, no 'unknown' tongues were used then.

Ron


Ron,

I have heard that argument before and did not understand it until reading this post.

Is there any thing else pertaining to the scriptures and doctrines where we can apply that argument to?

1399

Jermyn Davidson
09-19-2008, 02:03 AM
Yes, it does. Study a little more and place them into context.

Ok, I'll let Paul say it...
1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

Ron


Doesn't the "diversities of tongues" refer to the different tongues that believers speak in, not necessarily the different settings that tongues are spoken in?

KWSS1976
09-19-2008, 06:54 AM
Ok so I just want someone to tell me the tongues I hear in my church where are they found at in the bible. Please don't say Acts because we know when they spoke in those tongues other people understood what was being said. And tell me why people pray for the holyghost when no one in the bible prayed for the holyghost.

38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

See the words (promise) that means god is going to give it to you and you do not have to ask for it peter tells them what to do and speaking in tongues is nowhere in these verses

ronharvey
09-19-2008, 07:28 PM
Doesn't the "diversities of tongues" refer to the different tongues that believers speak in, not necessarily the different settings that tongues are spoken in?

1399,

That is specifically my point.

This thread starter keeps coming back to the 16 nations incident in Acts two wanting "proof" in HIS assembly contending that the ONLY tongues in the Bible were "known" and understood by someone.

Yet, when using the candy stick epistle (1st Cor.) to address this issue, that this was NOT Apostolic understanding, he then ignores his own 'proof' epistle and outright denies Paul's words and says;

"Ok so I just want someone to tell me the tongues I hear in my church where are they found at in the bible. Please don't say Acts because we know when they spoke in those tongues other people understood what was being said. And tell me why people pray for the holyghost when no one in the bible prayed for the holyghost."

Denying also the several passages showing people praying just prior to being filled with the Holy Ghost.

This thread starter is looking for a way to escape the inevitable; he has to pray (an out loud action on his part), to receive the Holy Ghost.

I suspect he is normally a reserved individual that doesn't really like being in crowds or in public view.

Ron

ronharvey
09-19-2008, 07:30 PM
Ok so I just want someone to tell me the tongues I hear in my church where are they found at in the bible. Please don't say Acts because we know when they spoke in those tongues other people understood what was being said. And tell me why people pray for the holyghost when no one in the bible prayed for the holyghost.

38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

See the words (promise) that means god is going to give it to you and you do not have to ask for it peter tells them what to do and speaking in tongues is nowhere in these verses

I'm sorry,

You must have missed this post;
http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=593179&postcount=35

Ron

mozet
09-23-2008, 09:55 PM
hi Ron,

I went went to la puente under Molander, and saw many miracles to different people depending on the situation. Pray for him, as he is getting up in age. It did my sould good to hear you say what you experienced.
God is good.

ronharvey
09-23-2008, 10:54 PM
hi Ron,

I went went to La Puente under Molander, and saw many miracles to different people depending on the situation. Pray for him, as he is getting up in age. It did my soul good to hear you say what you experienced.
God is good.

Mozet,

Good to hear from you!

I also saw many of God's miracles by his hand.
My pastor was Bro Spraggins in La Habra, Ca.

Ron

the Bishop
09-24-2008, 01:24 PM
I speak three languages and I am a witness that God does still fill people with the Holy Ghost and has witnesses to the fact. if you speak fluent German and French and hear a red neck Arkansas boy or girl praising God in those languages it will send a thrill down your soul that is unexplainable. the Scriptures say some simply have not because they ask not.

Jesus shed His blood and purchased every mans right to Seek God directly for the gift of Eternal Life, it is a shame that some are not willing to just do the Seeking. Jesus had the right to grant free passes into Eternal Life if He chose to, I will give you two examples of free passes pertaining to this life, and then an example of a free Pass into Eternal life.

1. The Cannanite woman who plead for her daughter, was told by the Master that she nor her daughter were entitled to the Blessings Promised to Abraham's children. calling that promise the Childrens bread. after humbling herself even to admitting to being equal to a dog. Jesus granted her a Free Pass to that Promise.

2. The 10 Lepers were healed and one outcast sinner a samarian returned and thanked Him and worshipped Him. all had been told to go and show themselves to the Priest and obey what was written by Moses. now if you read everything Moses wrote for a Leper to do in order to be certified clean under the Law, you can appreciate the Value of the Free Pass Jesus granted that One Leper when He told him " Go Thy Way " thy faith has made you whole. the man was exempted from all that ritual under the law.

3. The thief on the Cross admitted his sin and ask for Jesus to remember him when He entered His Kingdom. the thief was in no position to go and do anything to try and save himself he acknowleged that Jesus was innocent of any wrong doing as he and the other thief were. Jesus granted that mans request and gave him a Free Pass directly into the Kingdom of God that same day.

My point is, every requirement God ever gave is entirely up to Him and if God decides to alter any of those requirements to fulfill His own purpose He has the Power to do so and Who is any man who can say " what doest thou " those 120 who were Praying for the Holy Ghost in Acts 2nd. chapter had been taught all their lives to Pray, why would anyone question their prayers during the time they were doing as Jesus commanded " wait for the Promise of the Father..."

Everyone ..you can mark it down in your book , no man will ever receive the wonderful gift of the Holy Ghost who does not seek God in Prayer for the Same.
James 1:17

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
KJV

ronharvey
09-24-2008, 06:29 PM
Ron,

I have heard that argument before and did not understand it until reading this post.

Is there any thing else pertaining to the scriptures and doctrines where we can apply that argument to?

1399

1. The Rock that followed them in the wilderness, where did it come from?
Was it a real rock or a figure of speech?

2. The terms "Everlasting Life" and "Life Everlasting". Do they mean the same thing or do they indicate something different?

3. One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism (Context shows this only to be referring to the baptism of the Spirit).

Ron

KWSS1976
09-25-2008, 07:54 AM
This is what the bishop stated: In ACT2 it sayed they were praying it does not say they were praying for the holyghost you cannot say they were praying for the holyghost if it does not tell you that they were. Please tell me were in the bible the 120 were praying specifically for the holyghost.

My point is, every requirement God ever gave is entirely up to Him and if God decides to alter any of those requirements to fulfill His own purpose He has the Power to do so and Who is any man who can say " what doest thou " " wait for the Promise of the Father..."
those 120 who were Praying for the Holy Ghost in Acts 2nd. chapter had been taught all their lives to Pray, why would anyone question their prayers during the time they were doing as Jesus commanded

ronharvey
09-25-2008, 08:30 AM
This is what the bishop stated: In ACT2 it sayed they were praying it does not say they were praying for the holyghost you cannot say they were praying for the holyghost if it does not tell you that they were. Please tell me were in the bible the 120 were praying specifically for the holyghost.

My point is, every requirement God ever gave is entirely up to Him and if God decides to alter any of those requirements to fulfill His own purpose He has the Power to do so and Who is any man who can say " what doest thou " " wait for the Promise of the Father..."
those 120 who were Praying for the Holy Ghost in Acts 2nd. chapter had been taught all their lives to Pray, why would anyone question their prayers during the time they were doing as Jesus commanded

I'm sorry,

You must have missed this post;
http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...9&postcount=35

Ron