Apostolic Women...Apostolic Nuns...

[Carpenter]

I am sitting through a week long class and in this class is a nun who works with HIV positive patients.

I watch this woman pretty much all day from across the table. She wears her habit, her long flowing cotton robes and she has a very pecular countenance. One could say she is plainfaced, chaste, humble, non-assuming, yet at the same time, she wears all these things with a certain panache that communicates...I am a nun, I am plainface, chaste, humble and non-assuming having given my life to God...and you are not.

I then considered the pretty outrageous thought (the class is rather boring), Apostolic women are the representation of the Apostolic (or more specifically the UPC) nuns considering the expectations of the church on the women!

Ask yourself, why are there more nuns than priests, why aren't monks as prolific as nuns, and why is it that there are more women active in the A-church (from a perspective of buy-in) than men?

It is too funny and interesting a contrast and comparison to just let go by, so I had to present it to you people. :D

I also had an epiphany that we have embraced the Catholic tradition of calling each other "Brother and Sister" too.

I love hanging around Catholics, so much clarity it brings forth !!!!! :slaphappy

[Steve Epley]

I am sitting through a week long class and in this class is a nun who works with HIV positive patients.

I watch this woman pretty much all day from across the table. She wears her habit, her long flowing cotton robes and she has a very pecular countenance. One could say she is plainfaced, chaste, humble, non-assuming, yet at the same time, she wears all these things with a certain panache that communicates...I am a nun, I am plainface, chaste, humble and non-assuming having given my life to God...and you are not.

I then considered the pretty outrageous thought (the class is rather boring), Apostolic women are the representation of the Apostolic (or more specifically the UPC) nuns considering the expectations of the church on the women!

Ask yourself, why are there more nuns than priests, why aren't monks as prolific as nuns, and why is it that there are more women active in the A-church (from a perspective of buy-in) than men?

It is too funny and interesting a contrast and comparison to just let go by, so I had to present it to you people. :D

I also had an epiphany that we have embraced the Catholic tradition of calling each other "Brother and Sister" too.

I love hanging around Catholics, so much clarity it brings forth !!!!! :slaphappy

And the point is??????????????????????????

[MissBrattified]

I also had an epiphany that we have embraced the Catholic tradition of calling each other "Brother and Sister" too. ...I love hanging around Catholics, so much clarity it brings forth !!!!! :slaphappy

Are you having fun yet???? :coffee2

I dislike being called "Sister" anything...it makes me feel old!

I wouldn't call it a Catholic tradition....

Romans 14:10 "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

Romans 16:23 "Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother."

I Corinthians 5:11 "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat."

I Corinthians 7:15 "But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace."

Romans 16:1 "I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:"

[Nahum]

I watch this woman pretty much all day from across the table. She wears her habit, her long flowing cotton robes and she has a very pecular countenance. One could say she is plainfaced, chaste, humble, non-assuming, yet at the same time, she wears all these things with a certain panache that communicates...I am a nun, I am plainface, chaste, humble and non-assuming having given my life to God...and you are not.

You sound so judgemental and legalistic! Shouldn't she have freedom to dress as she chooses. No one made her become a nun.

[rgcraig]

Carp,

I get your humor.

[freeatlast]

Are you having fun yet???? :coffee2

I dislike being called "Sister" anything...it makes me feel old!

I wouldn't call it a Catholic tradition....

Romans 14:10 "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

Romans 16:23 "Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother."

I Corinthians 5:11 "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat."

I Corinthians 7:15 "But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace."

Romans 16:1 "I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:"

None of these verses show that these were addressed as brother or sister.

We do not use the trem in our church much..we try not to..old habits are hard to break.

Our newer guests feeling uncomfortable with it..or anyone feeling out of place by everyone being called bro or sis and them not being addressed as bro or sis.

Just trying to sensitive to new folks.

Whatever works in your church.

Our pastor is also addressed, as he asked to be, by Pastor "first name"

Some here might consider that disrespectful, but I assure our pastor is respected and loved.

If it is disrespectful..then please tell me Paul's last name

[rgcraig]

None of these verses show that these were addressed as brother or sister.

We do not use the trem in our church much..we try not to..old habits are hard to break.

Our newer guests feeling uncomfortable with it..or anyone feeling out of place by everyone being called bro or sis and them not being addressed as bro or sis.

Just trying to sensitive to new folks.

Whatever works in your church.

Our pastor is also addressed, as he asked to be, by Pastor "first name"

Some here might consider that disrespectful, but I assure our pastor is respected and loved.

If it is disrespectful..then please tell me Paul's last nameI thought it was Paul - - Apostle Paul.....lol!

[MissBrattified]

None of these verses show that these were addressed as brother or sister.

No, but they were referenced as such, and that is probably where the tradition derived from, which was my point. (...rather than from the Catholic church.)

If it is disrespectful..then please tell me Paul's last name

I didn't say that it was disrespectful. :)

[freeatlast]

No, but they were referenced as such, and that is probably where the tradition derived from, which was my point. (...rather than from the Catholic church.)



I didn't say that it was disrespectful. :)

1. I agree ..probably where it came from..or from the Quakers

2. I didn't say you did. Asked IF it is

[Nahum]

I watch this woman pretty much all day from across the table. She wears her habit, her long flowing cotton robes and she has a very pecular countenance. One could say she is plainfaced, chaste, humble, non-assuming, yet at the same time, she wears all these things with a certain panache that communicates...I am a nun, I am plainface, chaste, humble and non-assuming having given my life to God...and you are not.

Carp, you are being judgemental and legalistic. This is exactly what conservatives get upset about. You claim to know her heart simply by the way she is dressed. You judge her by the way she is dressed.

I thought liberals believed what you wear doesn't matter? I thought liberals believed its only what's on the INSIDE that counts?

You are saying her belief and dress code is inferior to yours. You sound pompous and much like a Pharisee.

[Nahum]

I then considered the pretty outrageous thought (the class is rather boring), Apostolic women are the representation of the Apostolic (or more specifically the UPC) nuns considering the expectations of the church on the women!

This is maddening!

Apostolic women are equated to nuns? Apostolic women (in your opinion) are dour, self-righteous and mean spirited?

Go marry a Baptist woman Carp. Maybe she will be happy.

[Nahum]

I watch this woman pretty much all day from across the table. She wears her habit, her long flowing cotton robes and she has a very pecular countenance. One could say she is plainfaced, chaste, humble, non-assuming, yet at the same time, she wears all these things with a certain panache that communicates...I am a nun, I am plainface, chaste, humble and non-assuming having given my life to God...and you are not.

So much for liberal tolerance! Carp can tell what is in your heart by looking at you.

[Nahum]

Carp,

I get your humor.

You think that is humorous Renda? I am disappointed.

I thought that you believed judgmentalism was wrong.

I guess its okay to make fun of CONSERVATIVE values.

[rgcraig]

You think that is humorous Renda? I am disappointed.

I thought that you believed judgmentalism was wrong.

I guess its okay to make fun of CONSERVATIVE values.

I didn't say it was humorous - I said I get his humor. Big difference.

[Nahum]

I didn't say it was humorous - I said I get his humor. Big difference.

No there isn't. You affirmed him.

[Nahum]

I then considered the pretty outrageous thought (the class is rather boring), Apostolic women are the representation of the Apostolic (or more specifically the UPC) nuns considering the expectations of the church on the women!

I suppose a low cut top, bare midriff, hoops the size of basketballs, daisy duke shorts and all would have made her a much better representation of Apostolic women?

After all, isn't all that matters is if they are SEXY?

[rgcraig]

No there isn't. You affirmed him.

I am one of those plain-faced women, so think what you may.

Carp dances to the beat of a different drummer. Is it wrong that he does that - no. Can we understand that - yes. That's all I meant.

He thinks outside the box and sometimes just thinks outloud to us.

I just don't understand why everyone is sooo defensive. There are post on here all the time that just because I cut my hair that I'm a Jezebel. I take that with a grain of salt - - I don't get all defensive everytime I read it.

:friend

[Steve Epley]

I have noticed judgmentalism is not the sole property of cons!! Libs do exactly what they condemn us of.

[rgcraig]

Carp, you are being judgemental and legalistic. This is exactly what conservatives get upset about. You claim to know her heart simply by the way she is dressed. You judge her by the way she is dressed.

I thought liberals believed what you wear doesn't matter? I thought liberals believed its only what's on the INSIDE that counts?

You are saying her belief and dress code is inferior to yours. You sound pompous and much like a Pharisee.

Carp said - "I then considered the pretty outrageous thought"

Did you miss this?

[Nahum]

I am one of those plain-faced women, so think what you may.

Carp dances to the beat of a different drummer. Is it wrong that he does that - no. Can we understand that - yes. That's all I meant.

He thinks outside the box and sometimes just thinks outloud to us.

I just don't understand why everyone is sooo defensive. There are post on here all the time that just because I cut my hair that I'm a Jezebel. I take that with a grain of salt - - I don't get all defensive everytime I read it.

:friend


Well, there is an understanding on AFF that it is impossible for a liberal to be judgmental or legalistic. Would you agree his post was both?

[Nahum]

Carp said - "I then considered the pretty outrageous thought"

Did you miss this?

It is outrageous. Apparently he gave credence to this OUTRAGEOUS thought, and posted it.

[rgcraig]

Well, there is an understanding on AFF that it is impossible for a liberal to be judgmental or legalistic. Would you agree his post was both?

To me his post was this : pretty outrageous thought - that's all. It wasn't judgmental or legalistic. In his own words it was a pretty outrageous thought!

That's why I said I get his humor.

[rgcraig]

It is outrageous. Apparently he gave credence to this OUTRAGEOUS thought, and posted it.

PP - you are a dear.

Stop, think back about a couple of the funny, outrageous threads you have started that were completely in humor.

Why does it always have to be a us/them issue?

[Nahum]

PP - you are a dear.

Stop, think back about a couple of the funny, outrageous threads you have started that were completely in humor.

Why does it always have to be a us/them issue?


I am neither an us or a them. I am stuck out in the middle somewhere. But even I can see the hypocrisy involved here.

[freeatlast]

I am neither an us or a them. I am stuck out in the middle somewhere. But even I can see the hypocrisy involved here.

MOVE

:friend

[Nahum]

MOVE

:friend

Not yet.

[Newman]

I also had an epiphany that we have embraced the Catholic tradition of calling each other "Brother and Sister" too.

I love hanging around Catholics, so much clarity it brings forth !!!!! :slaphappy

Really?

And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight and be filled with the Holy Ghost (Acts 9:17).

So sorry I don't have time to respond to the rest of your post! :igotit

[tbpew]

None of these verses show that these were addressed as brother or sister.

We do not use the trem in our church much..we try not to..old habits are hard to break.

Our newer guests feeling uncomfortable with it..or anyone feeling out of place by everyone being called bro or sis and them not being addressed as bro or sis.

Just trying to sensitive to new folks.

Whatever works in your church.

Our pastor is also addressed, as he asked to be, by Pastor "first name"

Some here might consider that disrespectful, but I assure our pastor is respected and loved.

If it is disrespectful..then please tell me Paul's last name

*note to self...get to threads before freeatlast to avoid being a pentecostal parrot*

Amen to the spirit embodied above.
non-specific titles are perfectly appropriate as a substitute for a proper name and do bear witness of the premise of our shared association --one family in heavean and earth.

When the title gets affixed to a proper name it has now become a basis for segregation rather than unity.

If I use my professional license initials (in my case they are suffixed), I am distinguishing myself from those who can not, in honesty, include them.

Dr. or Prof. are two other very common differentiators.

If we apply the title of Brother or Sister as an antecedent and then continue to afix it to a given or proper name, we are inherently acknowledging a position of distinction that one must acknowledge membership in or not membership in.

How does that edify?

"HI, FELLOW WITHIN PERSON, ISN"T IT GREAT WE UNDERSTAND WHAT WE ARE WITHIN [and all these other folks can try and figure out if they are WITHOUT].

Oh in case any of you were wondering....this is only my opinion.:friend

[tbpew]

Really?

And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight and be filled with the Holy Ghost (Acts 9:17).

So sorry I don't have time to respond to the rest of your post! :igotit
no doubt, you have correctly identified the one case where such a construction is recorded in the KJV of the bible.

shall someone else list the 50-100 times it is not and then ask the question, why was such a term of respect and familial identification left out of the inspiration?

[Felicity]

"Sister" is used frequently too in Song of Songs. ;) :)

[Whole Hearted]

I have noticed judgmentalism is not the sole property of cons!! Libs do exactly what they condemn us of.


Ain't it the truth.

[Nahum]

Why is the blue denim whales stuff offensive, and this thread isn't?

[Newman]

I am sitting through a week long class and in this class is a nun who works with HIV positive patients.

I watch this woman pretty much all day from across the table. She wears her habit, her long flowing cotton robes and she has a very pecular countenance. One could say she is plainfaced, chaste, humble, non-assuming, yet at the same time, she wears all these things with a certain panache that communicates...I am a nun, I am plainface, chaste, humble and non-assuming having given my life to God...and you are not.

Me thinks you are watching too much TV and are developing a warped mindset. In the first sentence you tell us she is working with HIV positive patients which would clue me in that this woman is somebody uniquely special no matter what she is wearing.

Giving comfort and support to an HIV postive patient is most likely a more difficult and emotionally draining situation than just dealing with a person who isn't sick at the time. It must be gut wrenching.

Consider that the habit she wears isn't to convey that she is better than anyone else but rather it identifies her with a group whose values and mission she embraces. :cool:

[CupCake]

I am sitting through a week long class and in this class is a nun who works with HIV positive patients.

I watch this woman pretty much all day from across the table. She wears her habit, her long flowing cotton robes and she has a very pecular countenance. One could say she is plainfaced, chaste, humble, non-assuming, yet at the same time, she wears all these things with a certain panache that communicates...I am a nun, I am plainface, chaste, humble and non-assuming having given my life to God...and you are not.

I then considered the pretty outrageous thought (the class is rather boring), Apostolic women are the representation of the Apostolic (or more specifically the UPC) nuns considering the expectations of the church on the women!

Ask yourself, why are there more nuns than priests, why aren't monks as prolific as nuns, and why is it that there are more women active in the A-church (from a perspective of buy-in) than men?

It is too funny and interesting a contrast and comparison to just let go by, so I had to present it to you people. :D

I also had an epiphany that we have embraced the Catholic tradition of calling each other "Brother and Sister" too.

I love hanging around Catholics, so much clarity it brings forth !!!!! :slaphappy


Maybe it due to no fashion sense. One can't go wrong wearing black....;)

[Newman]

Ask yourself, why are there more nuns than priests, why aren't monks as prolific as nuns, and why is it that there are more women active in the A-church (from a perspective of buy-in) than men?



Why more nuns than priests and monks? Just a guess. But the requirement of celibacy may be harder on men given their testosterone levels; especially since the decision is usually made in one's youth. :tiphat

Could be more Apostolic women are active in church (if true) because more men work full time + some and thus have greater time constraints. ;)

[Praxeas]

I am sitting through a week long class and in this class is a nun who works with HIV positive patients.

I watch this woman pretty much all day from across the table. She wears her habit, her long flowing cotton robes and she has a very pecular countenance. One could say she is plainfaced, chaste, humble, non-assuming, yet at the same time, she wears all these things with a certain panache that communicates...I am a nun, I am plainface, chaste, humble and non-assuming having given my life to God...and you are not.

I then considered the pretty outrageous thought (the class is rather boring), Apostolic women are the representation of the Apostolic (or more specifically the UPC) nuns considering the expectations of the church on the women!

Ask yourself, why are there more nuns than priests, why aren't monks as prolific as nuns, and why is it that there are more women active in the A-church (from a perspective of buy-in) than men?

It is too funny and interesting a contrast and comparison to just let go by, so I had to present it to you people. :D

I also had an epiphany that we have embraced the Catholic tradition of calling each other "Brother and Sister" too.

I love hanging around Catholics, so much clarity it brings forth !!!!! :slaphappy
There are more women in ALL churches so there are more women active in ALL churches, not just the Apostolic churches. Catholics don't call each other brothers and sisters, only those who are "in the ministry" do that and then only certain ones as it is a title like reverend or pastor is in other religions.

I don't know if Catholic nuns do not all shun makeup and none of them wear uncut hair. They also don't all wear skirts only. That is a uniform they wear and often they have very short hair undreneath that "veil" they wear...perhaps that is because they are vestal virgins of old absorbed by the Roman church.

Ask her next time if when she is not on duty or if she is ever out in street clothes if she wears any amount of makeup or jewelry

[Carpenter]

I am one of those plain-faced women, so think what you may.

Carp dances to the beat of a different drummer. Is it wrong that he does that - no. Can we understand that - yes. That's all I meant.

He thinks outside the box and sometimes just thinks outloud to us.

I just don't understand why everyone is sooo defensive. There are post on here all the time that just because I cut my hair that I'm a Jezebel. I take that with a grain of salt - - I don't get all defensive everytime I read it.

:friend


Renda, you are right on the money, the fact that I dance instead of march to the beat of a different drummer is testimony enough. :D

All I was saying was that I observed the same sort of attitude in this women who has no qualms about dressing in her habit (based on a committment to God) but that there is a certain...something about her countenance that I have observed to be present in Apostolic women as they present themselves in public. The simple message is that I am holy, committed to God, etc...and you are not.

Is that not the true and honest message of separation?


...be honest.


...just thinking out loud. :D

[Carpenter]

Me thinks you are watching too much TV and are developing a warped mindset. In the first sentence you tell us she is working with HIV positive patients which would clue me in that this woman is somebody uniquely special no matter what she is wearing.

Giving comfort and support to an HIV postive patient is most likely a more difficult and emotionally draining situation than just dealing with a person who isn't sick at the time. It must be gut wrenching.

Consider that the habit she wears isn't to convey that she is better than anyone else but rather it identifies her with a group whose values and mission she embraces. :cool:


You are absolutely right, my respect for her reaches to the moon. But then again, so what, they are only good works with no redemptive or salvific merit in the grand scheme of things....right?

I found out today that she is of the same sect as Mother Theresa.

[Carpenter]

It is outrageous. Apparently he gave credence to this OUTRAGEOUS thought, and posted it.

Well, I have a tendency to think and consider things that are waaaay outside the mainstream mode of thought but only because I have been trained that thinking outside the theological and traditional box is pretty much sin.

I didn't condemn anyone, I am just saying, I saw and considered a parallel, regardless of how outrageous the thought was.

I see parallels of other things all the time, but they are not pertinent to this forum.

[Rhoni]

Why more nuns than priests and monks? Just a guess. But the requirement of celibacy may be harder on men given their testosterone levels; especially since the decision is usually made in one's youth. :tiphat

Could be more Apostolic women are active in church (if true) because more men work full time + some and thus have greater time constraints. ;)


I don't believe any of these are legitmate excuses or justifications for men not stepping up to the plate in spiritual matters. It is just as difficult for women to be celibate, and today men and women are in the workplace and women not only particate in secular work but carry the majority of household chores also.

[Carpenter]

I am neither an us or a them. I am stuck out in the middle somewhere. But even I can see the hypocrisy involved here.

Hypocracy? :slaphappy :slaphappy :slaphappy

Give me a break...

[rrford]

Renda, you are right on the money, the fact that I dance instead of march to the beat of a different drummer is testimony enough. :D

All I was saying was that I observed the same sort of attitude in this women who has no qualms about dressing in her habit (based on a committment to God) but that there is a certain...something about her countenance that I have observed to be present in Apostolic women as they present themselves in public. The simple message is that I am holy, committed to God, etc...and you are not.

Is that not the true and honest message of separation?


...be honest.


...just thinking out loud. :D

Carp, believe it or not the mesage could simply be "I am holy and separated unto God." It does not have to have anything to do woth the "and you are not."

2 women I can think of who exemplify the view I have espoused come to mind: My wife and yours.

[Carpenter]

Carp, believe it or not the mesage could simply be "I am holy and separated unto God." It does not have to have anything to do woth the "and you are not."

2 women I can think of who exemplify the view I have espoused come to mind: My wife and yours.

Touche' and I would most certainly agree about those two ladies and many many others...but consider the issue on a global perspective.

I am talking about the attitude toward SEPARATION FROM THE WORLD, which holiness standards is now referred to.

Separation from the world by making yourself look more holy, or more acceptable, is certainly intended to send a message. Everyone on the planet sends non-verbal cultural messages. The message is I dress because I feel this is acceptable to God, and I look different from you because, well...

Could it be that God does not have that expectation for this type of separation?

[Coonskinner]

God said, "Come out from among them, and be ye separate..."

Who would "them" be if not the world?

Jesus said, "Ye are in the world, but not of the world."

[rrford]

Touche' and I would most certainly agree about those two ladies and many many others...but consider the issue on a global perspective.

I am talking about the attitude toward SEPARATION FROM THE WORLD, which holiness standards is now referred to.

Separation from the world by making yourself look more holy, or more acceptable, is certainly sends a message. Everyone on the planet sends non-verbal cultural messages.

Could it be that God does not have that expectation for this type of separation?

It could be, but I doubt it. Personally, I am around Apostolics on a regular basis. Very rarely do I see the mindset put forth that you speak of. It does happen, but I do not consider it a normal reaction at all.

[Newman]

I don't believe any of these are legitmate excuses or justifications for men not stepping up to the plate in spiritual matters. It is just as difficult for women to be celibate, and today men and women are in the workplace and women not only particate in secular work but carry the majority of household chores also.

1. Sorry but I know you know that young women don't think about sex nearly so much as young men driven to distraction by testosterone. I also mentioned that a person is frequently young when they make a choice to go in the direction of a priest or nun.

2. Active in the church includes making peanut brittle and food for after the funerals. Although many Apostolic women work outside the home; few put in the same hours working as their husbands. Many more women have chosen to sacrafice much to be at home with the kids and have more flexibility with their schedules than their husbands do. :cool:

[Carpenter]

God said, "Come out from among them, and be ye separate..."

Who would "them" be if not the world?

Jesus said, "Ye are in the world, but not of the world."

Believe it or not, I know some women who wear the uniform that inwardly are more like the world than wicked women I have only read about. Also, there are women who possess the fruits of the spirit and are mentally, emotionally, and spiritually separated, yet I couldn't pick them out of a crowd.

I am not sure and I question which is more important?

[rrford]

Touche' and I would most certainly agree about those two ladies and many many others...but consider the issue on a global perspective.

I am talking about the attitude toward SEPARATION FROM THE WORLD, which holiness standards is now referred to.

Separation from the world by making yourself look more holy, or more acceptable, is certainly intended to send a message. Everyone on the planet sends non-verbal cultural messages. The message is I dress because I feel this is acceptable to God, and I look different from you because, well...

Could it be that God does not have that expectation for this type of separation?

And I would disagree with your analysis of what that message is. The way one dresses is not intended to send a "message" per se to God or the world. It is simply the effect of one realizing God does expect modesty and moderation. The only message that sends is obedience to His word. Now we could extrapolate many more opinions into it, but at it's core I believe that should be the intent.

[rrford]

Believe it or not, I know some women who wear the uniform that inwardly are more like the world than wicked women I have only read about. Also, there are women who possess the fruits of the spirit and are mentally, emotionally, and spiritually separated, yet I couldn't pick them out of a crowd.

I am not sure and I question which is more important?

Does wither one have to be "more important?" Can it not be that one is not balanced without the other?

[Newman]

Well, I have a tendency to think and consider things that are waaaay outside the mainstream mode of thought but only because I have been trained that thinking outside the theological and traditional box is pretty much sin.

I didn't condemn anyone, I am just saying, I saw and considered a parallel, regardless of how outrageous the thought was.

I see parallels of other things all the time, but they are not pertinent to this forum.

I am glad you share. You have a very interesting way of looking at things and at the very least provoke thought. ;)

[Carpenter]

It could be, but I doubt it. Personally, I am around Apostolics on a regular basis. Very rarely do I see the mindset put forth that you speak of. It does happen, but I do not consider it a normal reaction at all.

I think it is an ingrained and even inbread attitude to the extent women don't even consider any other reason or motiviation or direction. It is just the way things are done and the way they have always been done, it was the way I was taught, it was good enough for gramma, it was good enough for mama, it is good enough for me. I have been told that God expects this so I will do it, and I have to obey.

The problem is that it is based and steeped more in tradition and culture than it is toward consideration of what is really pleasing unto the Lord.

[Newman]

Carp, believe it or not the mesage could simply be "I am holy and separated unto God." It does not have to have anything to do woth the "and you are not."

2 women I can think of who exemplify the view I have espoused come to mind: My wife and yours.

LOL How can he argue that? ;)

[rrford]

I think it is an ingrained and even inbread attitude to the extent women don't even consider any other reason or motiviation or direction. It is just the way things are done and the way they have always been done, it was the way I was taught, it was good enough for gramma, it was good enough for mama, it is good enough for me. I have been told that God expects this so I will do it, and I have to obey.

The problem is that it is based and steeped more in tradition and culture than it is toward consideration of what is really pleasing unto the Lord.

Sorry. I just don't see that attitude portrayed or espoused on a wholesale basis.

[Coonskinner]

Believe it or not, I know some women who wear the uniform that inwardly are more like the world than wicked women I have only read about. Also, there are women who possess the fruits of the spirit and are mentally, emotionally, and spiritually separated, yet I couldn't pick them out of a crowd.

I am not sure and I question which is more important?

Yeah, yeah, I know some hypocrites too.

I also have seen coon dogs that wouldn't tree coons, bird dogs that wouldn't point birds, cars that woulsdn't start, guns with busted firing pins that looked fine but wouldn't shoot, and paper airplanes that wouldn't fly.

As for the4 separated women who can't be picked out of the crowd, i guess it would depend on the crowd.

But now we're getting subjective.

Carp, nobody denies that there are men and women who look Apostolic who aren't even Christians, judging by their fruits, but that doesn't really cut any ice.

that is just a part of the human condition.

[rrford]

LOL How can he argue that?? ;)

He can't if he wants friends and to stay happily married. :tiphat

[Coonskinner]

I think it is an ingrained and even inbread attitude to the extent women don't even consider any other reason or motiviation or direction. It is just the way things are done and the way they have always been done, it was the way I was taught, it was good enough for gramma, it was good enough for mama, it is good enough for me. I have been told that God expects this so I will do it, and I have to obey.

The problem is that it is based and steeped more in tradition and culture than it is toward consideration of what is really pleasing unto the Lord.

This post is an opinion.

And I happen to disagree with it.:)

[rrford]

This post is an opinion.

And I happen to disagree with it.:)

Me too.

"In the mouth of two or three witnesses..."

[Nahum]

Me too.

"In the mouth of two or three witnesses..."

I make three.

[Carpenter]

And I would disagree with your analysis of what that message is. The way one dresses is not intended to send a "message" per se to God or the world. It is simply the effect of one realizing God does expect modesty and moderation. The only message that sends is obedience to His word. Now we could extrapolate many more opinions into it, but at it's core I believe that should be the intent.

Now I get to disagree with you.

The way one dresses is not intended to send a message? Cmon man, that is what standards are about for the mostpart, identification with a group of people that have the same beliefs. The internal message is that what you wear should be holy because if you do not, then you are decidedly NOT holy. The external message is to communicate to people that we are separate because we dress holy. The church lauds testimony of women who say people stop them on the street to ask them about the message they are sending through their appearance/dress.

[Nahum]

It is hypocritical Carp. One of the basic tenants of liberal AFF posters is that you can't judge a heart, motives, or attitude by the way someone is dressed. This is usually pointed out when libs refute cons assertions that you CAN assess a person's inward spirituality by the way someone dresses.

Are you now saying that those cons are right? Is a woman who wears jeans or sleeveless shirts a sinner? Are you qualified to make that assessment?

Bump for Carp.

[Rhoni]

1. Sorry but I know you know that young women don't think about sex nearly so much as young men driven to distraction by testosterone. I also mentioned that a person is frequently young when they make a choice to go in the direction of a priest or nun.

Yes, I see your point. I do agree that men are in their sexual prime in their adolescence and early adulthood.

2. Active in the church includes making peanut brittle and food for after the funerals. Although many Apostolic women work outside the home; few put in the same hours working as their husbands. Many more women have chosen to sacrafice much to be at home with the kids and have more flexibility with their schedules than their husbands do. :cool:



I guess many Apostolic women who are in intact marriages are allowed the privilege of working less or not at all, but it has been my experience and observation that even Apostolic women work full time jobs outside the homes. Rarely do I see men who work many more hours than their spouses. But regardless, women have always seemed to put more time into church activities and family responsibilities.


It may be that women tend to be more 'spiritual' than men because men are concentrating on other areas of their lives. Maybe this is the reason Paul admonishes men to be single as he was.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Carpenter]

Sorry. I just don't see that attitude portrayed or espoused on a wholesale basis.

It is not an attitude, it is the nature of a person that has been conditioned or taught such that becomes a natural thing, there IS no consideration.

You have heard the comment, "this (pointing to their clothing) is who I am..."

This to me points to the nature of a person being absorbed by a culture.

Good or bad, right or wrong...

[Nahum]

It may be that women tend to be more 'spiritual' than men because men are concentrating on other areas of their lives. Maybe this is the reason Paul admonishes men to be single as he was.

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni, please. This is such an old line of thinking on your part. You have become so anti-male its predictable.

[Carpenter]

I make three.

Ha Ha ha...I love it when you guys try and gang up on me...makes me homesick for the old FCF days!!!

:D

[Coonskinner]

Now I get to disagree with you.

The way one dresses is not intended to send a message? Cmon man, that is what standards are about for the mostpart, identification with a group of people that have the same beliefs. The internal message is that what you wear should be holy because if you do not, then you are decidedly NOT holy. The external message is to communicate to people that we are separate because we dress holy. The church lauds testimony of women who say people stop them on the street to ask them about the message they are sending through their appearance/dress.

All clothing sends a message.

[Rhoni]

Rhoni, please. This is such an old line of thinking on your part. You have become so anti-male its predictable.


I am not anti-male...50% of all US marriages end in divorce and over 90% of single parent familes are headed by females, and look in your own church...how many women are utilized in your church as compared to men?

I like men. I just wish more of them were more Godly/spiritual.

[rrford]

Now I get to disagree with you.

The way one dresses is not intended to send a message? Cmon man, that is what standards are about for the mostpart, identification with a group of people that have the same beliefs. The internal message is that what you wear should be holy because if you do not, then you are decidedly NOT holy. The external message is to communicate to people that we are separate because we dress holy. The church lauds testimony of women who say people stop them on the street to ask them about the message they are sending through their appearance/dress.

I did not say that. I am speaking to the specific discussion we are having. In this case I do not see that the way one dresses sends a message per se. It is a result, not a message. Big difference. Now the result may be analyzed to say that one is sending a message. But I contend that the message is not the catalyst.

Your internal message definition would be correct. But to assume that the external is what you say is fallacious and assumes exactly what Pastor Poster has been saying you are saying. You have caught yourself in your own "double standard" of judging the heart of the person by the way they dress.:tiphat

[rrford]

It is not an attitude, it is the nature of a person that has been conditioned or taught such that becomes a natural thing, there IS no consideration.

You have heard the comment, "this (pointing to their clothing) is who I am..."

This to me points to the nature of a person being absorbed by a culture.

Good or bad, right or wrong...

Sorry Bro. I love you but I sincerely disagree with your view here. I still think you have been surrounded by an "exception" mentality concerning this.

[Nahum]

I am not anti-male...50% of all US marriages end in divorce and over 90% of single parent familes are headed by females, and look in your own church...how many women are utilized in your church as compared to men?

I like men. I just wish more of them were more Godly/spiritual.

Drivel. Go sell that crud somewhere else. I see right through it, OH SPIRITUAL ONE!!

[Hoovie]

I am not anti-male...50% of all US marriages end in divorce and over 90% of single parent familes are headed by females, and look in your own church...how many women are utilized in your church as compared to men?

I like men. I just wish more of them were more Godly/spiritual.

Since you seem privy to the stats, do you know off hand how many first time marriages end in divorce?

[Rhoni]

Since you seem privy to the stats, do you know off hand how many first time marriages end in divorce? almost 68% according to Barna

[Nahum]

Posted by Rhoni:
I like men. I just wish more of them were more Godly/spiritual.

How can you possibly counsel impartially with this sort of worldview?

[rrford]

I am not anti-male...50% of all US marriages end in divorce and over 90% of single parent familes are headed by females, and look in your own church...how many women are utilized in your church as compared to men?

I like men. I just wish more of them were more Godly/spiritual.

Just like I wish more women were more spiritual. What would you say if I said that "most church problems are caused by women?"

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster
It is hypocritical Carp. One of the basic tenants of liberal AFF posters is that you can't judge a heart, motives, or attitude by the way someone is dressed. This is usually pointed out when libs refute cons assertions that you CAN assess a person's inward spirituality by the way someone dresses.

Are you now saying that those cons are right? Is a woman who wears jeans or sleeveless shirts a sinner? Are you qualified to make that assessment?

Why is Carp ignoring this post?

[Rhoni]

Drivel. Go sell that crud somewhere else. I see right through it, OH SPIRITUAL ONE!!


One doesn't have to be 'spiritual' to have access to statisitcs but you don't care about facts do you?

Blessings, Rhoni

[Coonskinner]

Just like I wish more women were more spiritual. What would you say if I said that "most church problems are caused by women?"

I would say, "Most of the problems on secular jobs I have had were also caused by women."

[Carpenter]

It is hypocritical Carp. One of the basic tenants of liberal AFF posters is that you can't judge a heart, motives, or attitude by the way someone is dressed. This is usually pointed out when libs refute cons assertions that you CAN assess a person's inward spirituality by the way someone dresses.

Are you now saying that those cons are right? Is a woman who wears jeans or sleeveless shirts a sinner? Are you qualified to make that assessment?

Well, maybe you are knocking on the door to the barn mistaking it for the house...

What I am questioning is the motive and intent of an individual who is making an attempt to BE separate from the mainstream, so they make an attempt to LOOK separate from the mainstream. This in my mind is shallow separation, because it is based on outward and fleshly ability. I am also questioning the contemporary message of Separation from the world that used to be preached under the heading of holiness standards.

Only the old school preachers even use that terminology anymore because the contemporary belief is that NO, you cannot do anything to be more HOLY in the eyes of the Lord. I can't remember the last time I heard the term Holiness Standards come out of the mouth of a preacher, but I hear separation from the world, constantly. I am just calling for folks to be honest with themselves even if it challenges their cultural foundations.

[HeavenlyOne]

God said, "Come out from among them, and be ye separate..."

Who would "them" be if not the world?

Jesus said, "Ye are in the world, but not of the world."

I agree with you. Do we know how Jesus and the disciples were separate from 'them'?

[Carpenter]

All clothing sends a message.

RRFord Disagrees...

[Coonskinner]

One doesn't have to be 'spiritual' to have access to statisitcs but you don't care about facts do you?

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni, ststistics are statistics and facts are facts, but seldom the twain shall meet.

There are three kinds of liars:

1.Liars

2.Blankety-blank liars

3.Statisticians

[Rhoni]

How can you possibly counsel impartially with this sort of worldview?

Don't start on me Pastor Poster...stick to the issues. My ability to counsel isn't your concern nor the subject at hand. People with less than nothing to say often resort to personal attacks.:grampa

[Nahum]

One doesn't have to be 'spiritual' to have access to statisitcs but you don't care about facts do you?

Blessings, Rhoni


It's a good thing. My statistics say that 100% of AFF women therapists have a problem with the fact there are males in the world.

[Coonskinner]

I agree with you. Do we know how Jesus and the disciples were separate from 'them'?

In a modest dressing culture, it wouldn't have been as outwardly apparent.

We don't happen to live in a modest culture.

[rrford]

Well, maybe you are knocking on the door to the barn mistaking it for the house...

What I am questioning is the motive and intent of an individual who is making an attempt to BE separate from the mainstream, so they make an attempt to LOOK separate from the mainstream. This in my mind is shallow separation, because it is based on outward and fleshly ability. I am also questioning the contemporary message of Separation from the world that used to be preached under the heading of holiness standards.

Only the old school preachers even use that terminology anymore because the contemporary belief is that NO, you cannot do anything to be more HOLY in the eyes of the Lord. I can't remember the last time I heard the term Holiness Standards come out of the mouth of a preacher, but I hear separation from the world, constantly. I am just calling for folks to be honest with themselves even if it challenges their cultural foundations.

So it seems you disagree with both terminologies. If that is the case what is the grounds for discourse here as opposed to you giving a monologue?

[Coonskinner]

Don't start on me Pastor Poster...stick to the issues. My ability to counsel isn't your concern nor the subject at hand. People with less than nothing to say often resort to personal attacks.:grampa

Sis, with all due kindness, when it comes to men, you obviously have more hangups than a telemarketer's luncheon and more issues than The National Geographic.

[rrford]

RRFord Disagrees...

Never said that. You are starting to read like some other posters around here. :slaphappy

[Nahum]

Don't start on me Pastor Poster...stick to the issues. My ability to counsel isn't your concern nor the subject at hand. People with less than nothing to say often resort to personal attacks.:grampaPersonal attacks?

I see how this game works. You set yourself up as spiritually superior to males and then whine when I call your hand?

Report it, I don't care. Your statements had nothing to to with the thread topic. You knew Coon and rrford were on this thread and threw a stinkbomb.

[rrford]

Personal attacks?

I see how this game works. You set yourself up as spiritually superior to males and then whine when I call your hand?

Report it, I don't care. Your statements had nothing to to with the thread topic. You knew Coon and rrford were on this thread and threw a stinkbomb.

BINGO!

[RevDWW]

Sis, with all due kindness, when it comes to men, you obviously have more hangups than a telemarketer's luncheon and more issues than The National Geographic.

:slaphappy :slaphappy :slaphappy :slaphappy :slaphappy

[HeavenlyOne]

Now I get to disagree with you.

The way one dresses is not intended to send a message? Cmon man, that is what standards are about for the mostpart, identification with a group of people that have the same beliefs. The internal message is that what you wear should be holy because if you do not, then you are decidedly NOT holy. The external message is to communicate to people that we are separate because we dress holy. The church lauds testimony of women who say people stop them on the street to ask them about the message they are sending through their appearance/dress.

I wonder why Jesus didn't look different than other men of His day so people would approach him due to his outward look to ask what message He was sending?

[Newman]

almost 68% according to Barna

68% of first time marriages end in divorce? Too hard to believe. In fact; I read that even the statistic that half end in divorce isn't quite accurate because of how marriages and divorces are measured.

The rates have been measured on a yearly basis which means that there are actually more marriages from previous years that are counted if they divorce but were not counted as a marriage for that year. So the numbers are skewed... (I think I am understanding this right; but feel free to correct me). ;)

[Coonskinner]

I wonder why Jesus didn't look different than other men of His day so people would approach him due to his outward look to ask what message He was sending?

Because He lived in a modest culture.

We don't.

[Carpenter]

I did not say that. I am speaking to the specific discussion we are having. In this case I do not see that the way one dresses sends a message per se. It is a result, not a message. Big difference. Now the result may be analyzed to say that one is sending a message. But I contend that the message is not the catalyst.

Your internal message definition would be correct. But to assume that the external is what you say is fallacious and assumes exactly what Pastor Poster has been saying you are saying. You have caught yourself in your own "double standard" of judging the heart of the person by the way they dress.:tiphat

Brother, I can't believe that you wouldn't even see that there is a seed of correctness in what I am saying.

You must think we are polarizing to an extent we have our backs turned to reality.

Why oh why is it that when a woman who has constantly and consistently sent the message that she is compliant, she is holy, whatever, through her appearance would be shocked and frightened to the bottom of her mortal soul to have ANYONE see her outside her uniform?

This to me indicates that there is a perspective toward sending a message than it is to really please the Lord. I can also ask about the way she dresses in and around her own home. WHy it it only important when there are people around?

[Coonskinner]

Brother, I can't believe that you wouldn't even see that there is a seed of correctness in what I am saying.

You must think we are polarizing to an extent we have our backs turned to reality.

Why oh why is it that when a woman who has constantly and consistently sent the message that she is compliant, she is holy, whatever, through her appearance would be shocked and frightened to the bottom of her mortal soul to have ANYONE see her outside her uniform?

This to me indicates that there is a perspective toward sending a message than it is to really please the Lord. I can also ask about the way she dresses in and around her own home. WHy it it only important when there are people around?

I go unclothed in certain areas of my home.

In public, I don't. Even if modesty were not a Biblical concept, i would still not want to be a stumblingblock to anyone.

[Nahum]

Well, maybe you are knocking on the door to the barn mistaking it for the house...

What I am questioning is the motive and intent of an individual who is making an attempt to BE separate from the mainstream, so they make an attempt to LOOK separate from the mainstream. This in my mind is shallow separation, because it is based on outward and fleshly ability. I am also questioning the contemporary message of Separation from the world that used to be preached under the heading of holiness standards.

Only the old school preachers even use that terminology anymore because the contemporary belief is that NO, you cannot do anything to be more HOLY in the eyes of the Lord. I can't remember the last time I heard the term Holiness Standards come out of the mouth of a preacher, but I hear separation from the world, constantly. I am just calling for folks to be honest with themselves even if it challenges their cultural foundations.

Consider this post against your original post.

[Nahum]

I watch this woman pretty much all day from across the table. She wears her habit, her long flowing cotton robes and she has a very pecular countenance. One could say she is plainfaced, chaste, humble, non-assuming, yet at the same time, she wears all these things with a certain panache that communicates...I am a nun, I am plainface, chaste, humble and non-assuming having given my life to God...and you are not.

I then considered the pretty outrageous thought (the class is rather boring), Apostolic women are the representation of the Apostolic (or more specifically the UPC) nuns considering the expectations of the church on the women!

Who is judgemental and selfrighteous?

[HeavenlyOne]

In a modest dressing culture, it wouldn't have been as outwardly apparent.

We don't happen to live in a modest culture.

The 'be ye separate' scripture was written over 2000 years ago. We say that it means we should dress different. I'm asking how Jesus followed that command Himself.

There are lots of people who dress modestly that are unchurched.

[HeavenlyOne]

BINGO!

I believe that's a sin. ;)

[Rhoni]

68% of first time marriages end in divorce? Too hard to believe. In fact; I read that even the statistic that half end in divorce isn't quite accurate because of how marriages and divorces are measured.

The rates have been measured on a yearly basis which means that there are actually more marriages from previous years that are counted if they divorce but were not counted as a marriage for that year. So the numbers are skewed... (I think I am understanding this right; but feel free to correct me). ;)

Actually, the figure jumped from 50% of all first time marriages in the United States end in divorce to 68% about three years ago. The stats are higher for second marriages, but tend to level out for third marriages.

I am not sure about the skew you are talking about. I do know that since 1995, the divorce rate in Pentecostal circles, which includes trinity pentecostals as well as oneness, has dramatically increased.

I don't know enough about the current measures to knowledgably talk about the possible bias. It has been awhile since I took statistics to recall the margin of error but it looks like it would have to be pretty accurate to come out of governmental census documents.

[HeavenlyOne]

Because He lived in a modest culture.

We don't.

Dressing modestly separates us from 'them'? Who are 'them'?

[Jekyll]

I am sitting through a week long class and in this class is a nun who works with HIV positive patients.

I watch this woman pretty much all day from across the table. She wears her habit, her long flowing cotton robes and she has a very pecular countenance. One could say she is plainfaced, chaste, humble, non-assuming, yet at the same time, she wears all these things with a certain panache that communicates...I am a nun, I am plainface, chaste, humble and non-assuming having given my life to God...and you are not.

I then considered the pretty outrageous thought (the class is rather boring), Apostolic women are the representation of the Apostolic (or more specifically the UPC) nuns considering the expectations of the church on the women!

Ask yourself, why are there more nuns than priests, why aren't monks as prolific as nuns, and why is it that there are more women active in the A-church (from a perspective of buy-in) than men?

It is too funny and interesting a contrast and comparison to just let go by, so I had to present it to you people. :D

I also had an epiphany that we have embraced the Catholic tradition of calling each other "Brother and Sister" too.

I love hanging around Catholics, so much clarity it brings forth !!!!! :slaphappy

Jekyll's wife here.....

Man for the "Bible being your ultimate authority as it should be", you sure spend a lot of time tearing down the word of God, and the stand people CLOSE to you take........ you've got to get right.. man....I gotta get outta here....I can't stand this nonsense anymore.....I pity your wife

[Carpenter]

So it seems you disagree with both terminologies. If that is the case what is the grounds for discourse here as opposed to you giving a monologue?

I don't disagree with either. I just wish the church would be honest with itself and its constituency.

There is nothing wrong with Apostolic women dressing as they do. I love the woman in my life who does just that...in fact more than the oxygen in my blood.

I am just saying that for the 20-odd years I have been around it, seeing the things I have, hearing the things I have, being exposed to the writings, preachings, messages, and discourse ALL in contrast (DO NOT read contradiction) with the word of God, I...yes I believe that the church is not being honest with itself...

I understand this looks as though I am putting myself in a position above folks, but I couldn't be honest and true to my relationship with Jesus and his word, by buying into something that I KNOW is not truth.

Sorry, that is where I am right now.

[Hoovie]

almost 68% according to Barna

This site would refute that number.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/d/divorce.htm

[Nahum]

Actually, the figure jumped from 50% of all first time marriages in the United States end in divorce to 68% about three years ago. The stats are higher for second marriages, but tend to level out for third marriages.

I am not sure about the skew you are talking about. I do know that since 1995, the divorce rate in Pentecostal circles, which includes trinity pentecostals as well as oneness, has dramatically increased.

I don't know enough about the current measures to knowledgably talk about the possible bias. It has been awhile since I took statistics to recall the margin of error but it looks like it would have to be pretty accurate to come out of governmental census documents.

I don't believe this is accurate.

[Rhoni]

Many people in other denominational churches have received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. I worry about those who condemn Mother Theresa for what she has done judging that she did not have a salvational expeience.

[HeavenlyOne]

Jekyll's wife here.....

Man for the "Bible being your ultimate authority as it should be", you sure spend a lot of time tearing down the word of God, and the stand people CLOSE to you take........ you've got to get right.. man....I gotta get outta here....I can't stand this nonsense anymore.....I pity your wife

For someone who admits openly how much they can't stand this place, you sure spend a lot of time here......LOL!

Maybe you should get your own name....like, Hyde. :D

[Carpenter]

Jekyll's wife here.....

Man for the "Bible being your ultimate authority as it should be", you sure spend a lot of time tearing down the word of God, and the stand people CLOSE to you take........ you've got to get right.. man....I gotta get outta here....I can't stand this nonsense anymore.....I pity your wife

Good Golly Miss Molly, I hope Jekyll's wife didn't think I was serious.

I suppose I should have just kept my mind thinking about the lights in the room using up electricity instead of thinking about the nun...


I repent.

[rrford]

Brother, I can't believe that you wouldn't even see that there is a seed of correctness in what I am saying.

You must think we are polarizing to an extent we have our backs turned to reality.

Why oh why is it that when a woman who has constantly and consistently sent the message that she is compliant, she is holy, whatever, through her appearance would be shocked and frightened to the bottom of her mortal soul to have ANYONE see her outside her uniform?

This to me indicates that there is a perspective toward sending a message than it is to really please the Lord. I can also ask about the way she dresses in and around her own home. WHy it it only important when there are people around?

I will agree that some are as you describe. I have as much as said so already.

But I do not think your view is the wholesale view. Sorry. Maybe in your world that is how it was explained. Not in mine.

[Nahum]

Many people in other denominational churches have received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. I worry about those who condemn Mother Theresa for what she has done judging that she did not have a salvational expeience.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

[Carpenter]

For someone who admits openly how much they can't stand this place, you sure spend a lot of time here......LOL!

Maybe you should get your own name....like, Hyde. :D

Go easy, she is hardly ever here...if ever...

[Rhoni]

This site would refute that number.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/d/divorce.htm

My staistics come from Barna...I think anyone can pull up alternating or conflicting staistics...truth is...take a poll in your community and see what you come up with. Divorce is obviously ramphant in our world, communities, and churches...just open your eyes.

[rrford]

Many people in other denominational churches have received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. I worry about those who condemn Mother Theresa for what she has done judging that she did not have a salvational expeience.

Are you actually contending that she was saved?

[rrford]

My staistics come from Barna...I think anyone can pull up alternating or conflicting staistics...truth is...take a poll in your community and see what you come up with. Divorce is obviously ramphant in our world, communities, and churches...just open your eyes.

But are there more divorced men than women?

[HeavenlyOne]

Go easy, she is hardly ever here...if ever...

I, on the other hand, think she's here quite a bit.....LOL!

Jekyll must be showering. She's posting on other threads.

[Rhoni]

But are there more divorced men than women?

I'd say it would have to be even unless you count the Gay and Lesbian marriages;)!
:slaphappy

[Carpenter]

I will agree that some are as you describe. I have as much as said so already.

But I do not think your view is the wholesale view. Sorry. Maybe in your world that is how it was explained. Not in mine.

I would say most Apostolic women are as I described. They would be mortified for anyone to see them inconsistent with their reputation or testimony.

[rrford]

I'd say it would have to be even unless you count the Gay and Lesbian marriages;)!
:slaphappy

So would I. But with your take on men I wasn't sure what your stats would say...:toofunny

[rrford]

I would say most Apostolic women are as I described. They would be mortified for anyone to see them inconsistent with their reputation or testimony.

Okay. And that is a bad thing because?

[Rhoni]

Are you actually contending that she was saved?

I contend that it isn't anyone's, including myself's responsibility or right to judge her experience with God.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Nahum]

I'd say it would have to be even unless you count the Gay and Lesbian marriages;)!
:slaphappy


How can you possibly know it is even?

Your abilities are truly a wonderment.

[Hoovie]

My staistics come from Barna...I think anyone can pull up alternating or conflicting staistics...truth is...take a poll in your community and see what you come up with. Divorce is obviously ramphant in our world, communities, and churches...just open your eyes.

The site I gave does quote Barna. In a quick search I could not find the statistics you reference.


BTW - I only ask because I am interested - not to be argumentative.

[Nahum]

I contend that it isn't anyone's, including myself's responsibility or right to judge her experience with God.

Blessings, Rhoni

But it is your right to contend women are more spiritual than men.

[Rhoni]

So would I. But with your take on men I wasn't sure what your stats would say...:toofunny

I don't make up my own stats...I quoted Barna stats...I don't hate men...I happen to like 2 or 3 of them.:tiphat

[Nahum]

The site I gave does quote Barna. In a quick search I could not find the statistics you reference.

SHOCKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rrford]

I contend that it isn't anyone's, including myself's responsibility or right to judge her experience with God.

Blessings, Rhoni


Oh Rhoni, but you did. Your post clearly stated that you have a hard time believing anyone would think she did not have a salvational experience.

[HeavenlyOne]

How can you possibly know it is even?

Your abilities are truly a wonderment.

It can't possibly be even, since divorced people get remarried to single people who have never been married.

For instance, a man can have three wives and divorce them. That makes one divorced man and three divorced women.

[Carpenter]

Okay. And that is a bad thing because?

I didn't say it was a bad thing, but it kind of proves my point.

[Jekyll]

I, on the other hand, think she's here quite a bit.....LOL!

Jekyll must be showering. She's posting on other threads.

OOOOhhhhh what a crime,
STOP THE PRESS!!!

I think you need to go take a shower yourself....

[Nahum]

It can't possibly be even, since divorced people get remarried to single people who have never been married.

For instance, a man can have three wives and divorce them. That makes one divorced man and three divorced women.

Sorry, but Rhoni has spoken. She is an expert on all things.

From the spritual superiority of women, Mudder Theresa's eternal destination and how many people are divorced in your town.

[rrford]

I didn't say it was a bad thing, but it kind of proves my point.

It proves that people care about their testimony as it is representative of "Christ in them, the hope of glory."

[Carpenter]

OOOOhhhhh what a crime,
STOP THE PRESS!!!

I think you need to go take a shower yourself....

I think I am injured...can anyone see something big and jagged sticking out of my spleen??? Don't touch it, just tell me if you see dark purpleish blood...

:vomit :vomit

[rrford]

I think I am injured...can anyone see something big and jagged sticking out of my spleen??? Don't touch it, just tell me if you see dark purpleish blood...

:vomit :vomit

"I was wounded in the house of my friends..."

[Felicity]

OOOOhhhhh what a crime,
STOP THE PRESS!!!

I think you need to go take a shower yourself....You seem very angry. What is the anger stemming from?

[Carpenter]

You seem very angry. What is the anger stemming from?

It was me...

[Rhoni]

Feature Article

The Demographics of Divorce-United States
and Missouri
Robert Hughes, Jr., Ph.D., Former Professor, Department of Human Development & Family Studies, College of Human Environmental Sciences, University of Missouri-Columbia

The demographics of divorce are routinely reported wrong, calculated wrong or misinterpreted. Here are some explanations of the different ways that divorce rates are reported and what each of these rates means.
For every two marriages that occurred in the 1990s, there was one divorce. This does not mean that the divorce rate is 50%. Although, it is correct that in the United States during most of the 1990s, there were about two marriages for every divorce in a single year. But this does not mean that the divorce rate is 50% because the people getting married in a single year are not the same ones getting divorced. This is a very common error and it results from the fact that that Vital Statistics report the numbers of marriages and divorces for each year. It is easy to think that some type of divorce rate can be calculated from these numbers, but it can't.


Newman, Is this what you are talking about? I found it in U.S. Census stats...

[HeavenlyOne]

OOOOhhhhh what a crime,
STOP THE PRESS!!!

I think you need to go take a shower yourself....

Only on Saturdays, but thanks for reminding me!

Seriously though, I hope you find deliverance over the anger issues you have. Jesus heals.

[Felicity]

It was me...Oops. Seems like feelings are running high. Don't want to add fuel to the fire. :o

[Carpenter]

Oops. Seems like feelings are running high. Don't want to add fuel to the fire. :o

You are OK Felicity, it is all personal knee jerk reaction stuff...atomic-behind the scenes issues.

[rrford]

MIght be a conversion to the priesthood in the making for Carp.:slaphappy

I know it really isn't funny but all is well.

[Jekyll]

I, on the other hand, think she's here quite a bit.....LOL!

Jekyll must be showering. She's posting on other threads.

OOOOhhhhh what a crime,
STOP THE PRESS!!!

I think you need to go take a shower yourself....

I think I am injured...can anyone see something big and jagged sticking out of my spleen??? Don't touch it, just tell me if you see dark purpleish blood...

:vomit :vomit
Okay, sorry, this was the Real Me this time....

and Carp? I was replying to HO, not you...

and Felicity, I am not angry...I have a rather sick stomach looking at the world we live in...everyone (okay, not EVERYone, but MOSTLY everyone) is consumed by their own lusts...

I can't help but think that we are in the time of Noah...people here reject and pick and choose what to obey in the Bible...which is no different than pursuing the lust of the flesh...just obey what is convenient...people throw conviction to the pavement and don't look back...people believe the message that saves is the message that binds...people rip, ridicule and try to diminish the influence of the spiritual authority that we should embrace and cherish...

I remember about 15-19 years ago when there was a big push through Rock music to bring anarchy to the world...today we are witnesses to that offspring...

:(

[Felicity]

and Felicity, I am not angry...I have a rather sick stomach looking at the world we live in...everyone (okay, not EVERYone, but MOSTLY everyone) is consumed by their own lusts...Well, I'd say you have a lot to be thankful for considering that you're out of that mess and in a privileged position where you can pray and intercede and make a difference in the world around you that makes you feel ill.

View the world through the eyes of Jesus and you get a whole different perspective. There's always more than one way of looking at most anything.

God bless you!

[Rhoni]

http://www.barna.org/images/titleTheBarnaUpdate.gif (http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdates)
September 8, 2004


(Ventura, CA) - Recent legislation, lawsuits and public demonstrations over the legality of gay marriage are just one battlefront regarding the institution of marriage. A new study released by The Barna Group, of Ventura, California, shows that the likelihood of married adults getting divorced is identical among born again Christians and those who are not born again. The study also cited attitudinal data showing that most Americans reject the notion that divorce is a sin.
Based on interviews with a nationally representative sample of 3614 adults, the Barna survey focused on the three-quarters of adults 18 years of age or older who have been married at least once. The study identified those who had been divorced; the age at which they were divorced; how many divorces they have experienced; and the age at which the born again Christians had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior. Comparing the ages when divorced adults had accepted Christ and when they underwent their divorce, the researchers were able to determine both the impact of one’s faith commitment on the resilience of the marriage and whether the divorce occurred before or after their born again commitment. The survey also examined whether people believe that divorce is a sin in situations where adultery is not involved.
More Than One-Third Call It Quits
Among all adults 18 and older, three out of four (73%) have been married and half (51%) are currently married. (That does not include the 3% who are presently separated from their marriage partner.) Among those who have been married, more than one out of every three (35%) have also been divorced. One out of every five adults (18%) who has ever been divorced has been divorced multiple times. That represents 7% of all Americans who have been married.
The average age at which people first dissolve their initial marriage tends to be in the early thirties. Among people in their mid-fifties or older, the median age of their first divorce was 34. Among Baby Boomers, millions more of whom are expected to get a divorce within the coming decade, the median age of the first divorce is currently 31. The Barna Group expects the average age of a first divorce among Boomers to be similar to that of the preceding generations by 2015, as the aging members of that generation sustain divorces later in life.
The research revealed that Boomers continue to push the limits regarding the prevalence of divorce. Whereas just one-third (33%) of the married adults from the preceding two generations had experienced a divorce, almost half of all married Boomers (46%) have already undergone a marital split. This means Boomers are virtually certain to become the first generation for which a majority experienced a divorce.
It appears that the generation following the Boomers will reach similar heights, since more than one-quarter of the married Baby Busters (27%) have already undergone a divorce, despite the fact that the youngest one-fifth of that generation has not even reached the average age of a first marriage.
Christians Have Same Incidence of Divorce
Although many Christian churches attempt to dissuade congregants from getting a divorce, the research confirmed a finding identified by Barna a decade ago (and further confirmed through tracking studies conducted each year since): born again Christians have the same likelihood of divorce as do non-Christians.
Among married born again Christians, 35% have experienced a divorce. That figure is identical to the outcome among married adults who are not born again: 35%.
George Barna noted that one reason why the divorce statistic among non-Born again adults is not higher is that a larger proportion of that group cohabits, effectively side-stepping marriage - and divorce - altogether. "Among born again adults, 80% have been married, compared to just 69% among the non-born again segment. If the non-born again population were to marry at the same rate as the born again group, it is likely that their divorce statistic would be roughly 38% - marginally higher than that among the born again group, but still surprisingly similar in magnitude."
Barna also noted that he analyzed the data according to the ages at which survey respondents were divorced and the age at which those who were Christian accepted Jesus Christ as their savior. "The data suggest that relatively few divorced Christians experienced their divorce before accepting Christ as their savior," he explained. "If we eliminate those who became Christians after their divorce, the divorce figure among born again adults drops to 34% - statistically identical to the figure among non-Christians." The researcher also indicated that a surprising number of Christians experienced divorces both before and after their conversion.
Multiple divorces are also unexpectedly common among born again Christians. Barna’s figures show that nearly one-quarter of the married born agains (23%) get divorced two or more times.
The survey showed that divorce varied somewhat by a person’s denominational affiliation. Catholics were substantially less likely than Protestants to get divorced (25% versus 39%, respectively). Among the largest Protestant groups, those most likely to get divorced were Pentecostals (44%) while Presbyterians had the fewest divorces (28%).
Is Divorce A Sin?
Although Bible scholars and teachers point out that Jesus taught that divorce was a sin unless adultery was involved, few Americans buy that notion. Only one out of every seven adults (15%) strongly agreed with the statement "when a couple gets divorced without one of them having committed adultery, they are committing a sin." A similar percentage (16%) moderately agreed with the statement. The vast majority - 66% - disagreed with the statement, most of them strongly dismissing the notion.
Faith perspectives made a difference in people’s views on this matter - but not as much as might have expected. Born again adults were twice as likely as non-born agains (24% vs. 10%) to strongly affirm this statement. However, a majority of the born again group (52%) disagreed that divorce without adultery is sin. Three-quarters of all non-born again adults (74%) disagreed with the statement.
A majority of both Protestants (58%) and Catholics (69%) disagreed that divorce without adultery involved in the commission of sin.
There was no difference in point-of-view on this matter across the generational groups. The largest difference among subgroups of the population was between blacks and whites. Just half of the black segment (49%) disagreed with the survey statement compared to seven out of ten white adults (70%). Hispanics were in-between those extremes (64% disagreed.)
No End In Sight
Barna stated that there is no end in sight regarding divorce. "You can understand why atheists and agnostics might have a high rate of divorce, since they are less likely to believe in concepts such as sin, absolute moral truth and judgment. Yet the survey found that the percentage of atheists and agnostics who have been married and divorced is 37% - very similar to the numbers for the born again population. Given the current growth in the number of atheists and agnostics, and that the younger two generations are predisposed to divorce, we do not anticipate a reversal of the present pattern within the next decade."
Research Methods
The data described in this report are based on nationwide telephone interviews conducted by The Barna Group with a random sample of 3614 adults, age 18 or older, between January and August 2004. The maximum margin of sampling error associated with the aggregate sample of adults is ±1.9 percentage points at the 95% confidence level. The maximum sampling error associated with the 1468 born again Christians interviewed is ±2.6 percentage points; with the 2147 non-born again adults, ±2.2 percentage points; with the 1246 Baby Busters, born between 1965 and 1983, ±2.9 percentage points; with the 1275 Baby Boomers, born between 1946 and 1964, ±2.9 percentage points; and with the 829 elder adults, born 1945 or earlier, ±3.5 percentage points.
People in the 48 continental states were eligible to be interviewed and the distribution of those individuals coincided with the geographic dispersion of the U.S. population. The data were subjected to minimal statistical weighting to calibrate the survey base to national demographic proportions. Households selected for inclusion in the telephone sample received multiple callbacks to increase the probability of including a reliable distribution of qualified individuals. “Born again Christians" were defined in these surveys as people who said they have made "a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their life today" and who also indicated they believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they had confessed their sins and had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior. Respondents were not asked to describe themselves as "born again." Being classified as "born again" is not dependent upon church or denominational affiliation or involvement. The Barna Group, Ltd., and its research division (The Barna Research Group), is an independent cultural analysis and strategic consulting firm located in Ventura, California. Since 1984, it has been conducting and analyzing primary research to understand cultural trends related to values, beliefs, attitudes and behaviors. If you would like to receive free e-mail notification of the release of each new, bi-weekly update on the latest research findings from The Barna Group, you may subscribe to this free service at the Barna web site (www.barna.org)

[Jekyll]

Well, I'd say you have a lot to be thankful for considering that you're out of that mess and in a privileged position where you can pray and intercede and make a difference in the world around you that makes you feel ill.

View the world through the eyes of Jesus and you get a whole different perspective. There's always more than one way of looking at most anything.

God bless you!
Thank you...

Oh, yes, I do believe that wholeheartedly...I am not at all doom and gloom as the previous post does sound...

I just didn't realize how FAR things have fallen until I saw some stuff in a larger city I visited recently...society at large outside of the small town I reside in...not visiting the big city wide eyed, mind you...just...driving through town and the push for sexual immorality, the disregard for conservative living - if you don't live 110% for your career during the day and the nightlife and godlessness...ah...

Hard to put in words, but it certainly opened MY eyes...

[Carpenter]

Jekyll's wife here.....

Man for the "Bible being your ultimate authority as it should be", you sure spend a lot of time tearing down the word of God, and the stand people CLOSE to you take........ you've got to get right.. man....I gotta get outta here....I can't stand this nonsense anymore.....I pity your wife

This was the post where I actually felt the rusty nails in the board scraping past my rib cage while the jagged piece of wood made its way into my solar plexus...

[Jekyll]

This was the post where I actually felt the rusty nails in the board scraping past my rib cage while the jagged piece of wood made its way into my solar plexus...
Jek's Wife is doing business, but will see the PM shortly...

[Felicity]

Thank you...

Oh, yes, I do believe that wholeheartedly...I am not at all doom and gloom as the previous post does sound...

I just didn't realize how FAR things have fallen until I saw some stuff in a larger city I visited recently...society at large outside of the small town I reside in...not visiting the big city wide eyed, mind you...just...driving through town and the push for sexual immorality, the disregard for conservative living - if you don't live 110% for your career during the day and the nightlife and godlessness...ah...

Hard to put in words, but it certainly opened MY eyes...Well, there's more I could say but I'll let it go. I need to get to bed.

Tomorrow's a new day! Guess it's already tomorrow for some here. :)

[Jekyll]

Well, there's more I could say but I'll let it go. I need to get to bed.

Tomorrow's a new day! Guess it's already tomorrow for some here. :)
Okay...please don't take me wrong...

Neither am I pulling the, "Thank God I am not like these sinners...," rather, just admitting to my ignorance to the world outside my community.

Have a good evening.

[RevDWW]

I'm just not so sure how "Christian" Christians are when they divorce for any other reason other then those prescribed by Jesus and Paul.

[Carpenter]

I'm just not so sure how "Christian" Christians are when they divorce for any other reason other then those prescribed by Jesus and Paul.

How can married people actually be Christ-like...when Jesus never had to endure what my wife has to put up with?

:slaphappy

[Rhoni]

I'm just not so sure how "Christian" Christians are when they divorce for any other reason other then those prescribed by Jesus and Paul.

Jesus did not allow divorce at all...he only said that Moses did it because of the hardness of men's hearts.

Even the reasons spoke of by Paul are just a way to justify oneself in the sight of others. You can drive a person away from you and even give them cause to commit adultery. You can use the justification that each is responsible for one's own behaviors but even then...

I just don't see many justifiable if any at all reasons for divorce.

Remarriage is the issue...it would seem.

[Jekyll]

Jesus did not allow divorce at all...he only said that Moses did it because of the hardness of men's hearts.

Even the reasons spoke of by Paul are just a way to justify oneself in the sight of others. You can drive a person away from you and even give them cause to commit adultery. You can use the justification that each is responsible for one's own behaviors but even then...

I just don't see many justifiable if any at all reasons for divorce.

Remarriage is the issue...it would seem.
Adultery breaks the union of one couple and joins the offendor to the other party...

Of course there is just cause for divorce.

This issue and others are plainly spelled out in the Bible. I don't understand how people deem their own judgement to be higher than the authors of His word. If people want another Bible, go write one and embrace it and love it and follow it.

Why is there a need to diminish His Holy Word???

[Carpenter]

whew...thank GOD this thread has been hijacked!

:toofunny

[Rhoni]

Adultery breaks the union of one couple and joins the offendor to the other party...

Of course there is just cause for divorce.

This issue and others are plainly spelled out in the Bible. I don't understand how people deem their own judgement to be higher than the authors of His word. If people want another Bible, go write one and embrace it and love it and follow it.

Why is there a need to diminish His Holy Word???

Jekyll,

Don't have the time or the patience to rewrite the scriptures posted over and over again on these threads, but no body is rewriting the Bible. Perhaps you are reacting on an emotional level and not a scriptural one.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Jekyll]

Jekyll,

Don't have the time or the patience to rewrite the scriptures posted over and over again on these threads, but no body is rewriting the Bible. Perhaps you are reacting on an emotional level and not a scriptural one.

Blessings, Rhoni
Sorry, I don't quite live in the emotional realm that you seem to live in. If you don't think that people twist scripture, you are mistaken. On the other hand, I agree that people use any excuse they can to commit sin.

Including blaming their spouse for what they themselves do.

[Rhoni]

Sorry, I don't quite live in the emotional realm that you seem to live in. If you don't think that people twist scripture, you are mistaken. On the other hand, I agree that people use any excuse they can to commit sin.

Including blaming their spouse for what they themselves do.

Oh, I agree that many twist scriptures to say and mean what they want them to say or mean. I was totally unemotional when I posted that the only response to the Pharisees that Jesus gave them was the fact Moses gave a writ of divorcement because of the hardness of the people's hearts. Jesus went on to say that it was not the way it was from the beginning.

And I agree that many people fail to remove the beam from their own eye before trying to remove a twig from that of another's eye;)!:grampa

Blessings, Rhoni

[Coonskinner]

The 'be ye separate' scripture was written over 2000 years ago. We say that it means we should dress different. I'm asking how Jesus followed that command Himself.

There are lots of people who dress modestly that are unchurched.

Separation includes modesty, but is far more all-encompassing than just dress.

That is way too narrow a definition.

[RevDWW]

Separation includes modesty, but is far more all-encompassing than just dress.

That is way too narrow a definition.

Good Point!

[Guy]

Renda, you are right on the money, the fact that I dance instead of march to the beat of a different drummer is testimony enough. :D

All I was saying was that I observed the same sort of attitude in this women who has no qualms about dressing in her habit (based on a committment to God) but that there is a certain...something about her countenance that I have observed to be present in Apostolic women as they present themselves in public. The simple message is that I am holy, committed to God, etc...and you are not.

Is that not the true and honest message of separation?


...be honest.


...just thinking out loud. :D

Perhaps what you are observing is a certain serenity that comes from faith? The message from her countenance being deeper than the habit she wears.

[Coonskinner]

Perhaps what you are observing is a certain serenity that comes from faith? The message from her countenance being deeper than the habit she wears.

Perish the thought....

Methinks you might have a point.

[rgcraig]

Renda, you are right on the money, the fact that I dance instead of march to the beat of a different drummer is testimony enough. :D

All I was saying was that I observed the same sort of attitude in this women who has no qualms about dressing in her habit (based on a committment to God) but that there is a certain...something about her countenance that I have observed to be present in Apostolic women as they present themselves in public. The simple message is that I am holy, committed to God, etc...and you are not.

Is that not the true and honest message of separation?


...be honest.


...just thinking out loud. :D
FINALLY!

I was hung out to dry and you were no where to be found to agree or disagree with my explaination of what I thought you meant!

[Coonskinner]

What Carp describes is probably the same aura that a man who is confident and comfortable in his own skin exudes.

But coming from a woman, it registers differently, and is perceived differently.:)

[rgcraig]

What Carp describes is probably the same aura that a man who is confident and comfortable in his own skin exudes.

But coming from a woman, it registers differently, and is perceived differently.:)I could agree with this to a point. I need to catch up and read everything that was said last night before I comment too much here.

[Coonskinner]

If you have a preconceived bias against a particular thing, you are going to view it through the lense of that bias.

Carp's feelings about what he calls "the uniform" are well documented.

Carp knows I love him, but this is a subject that has been stuck in his craw for as long as we have been acquainted.

It seems difficult for him to accept that there is anything much non-toxic about the keeping of standards.

[Guy]

If you have a preconceived bias against a particular thing, you are going to view it through the lense of that bias.

Carp's feelings about what he calls "the uniform" are well documented.

Carp knows I love him, but this is a subject that has been stuck in his craw for as long as we have been acquainted.

It seems difficult for him to accept that there is anything much non-toxic about the keeping of standards.

There are some things that you and I don't agree on - but to accuse someone who is trying to honor God with their lifestyle as being judgmental is every bit as bad as ultras accusing everyone else of loving the world.
I don't usually post a lot of scripture but this one comes to mind concerning the whole issue of separation that takes place between a Christian and "the world." Seems that it is not all one sided.
1 Peter 4:1-5
4:1 Living for God
So then, since Christ suffered physical pain, you must arm yourselves with the same attitude he had, and be ready to suffer, too. For if you are willing to suffer for Christ, you have decided to stop sinning.

2 And you won't spend the rest of your life chasing after evil desires, but you will be anxious to do the will of God.

3 You have had enough in the past of the evil things that godless people enjoy — their immorality and lust, their feasting and drunkenness and wild parties, and their terrible worship of idols.

4 Of course, your former friends are very surprised when you no longer join them in the wicked things they do, and they say evil things about you.

5 But just remember that they will have to face God, who will judge everyone, both the living and the dead.
NLT

[HeavenlyOne]

Separation includes modesty, but is far more all-encompassing than just dress.

That is way too narrow a definition.

I agree, I just thought that's where you were going in that definition.

[Michlow]

I can't believe I actually took the time to read this whole thread. :nah

[CupCake]

I am sitting through a week long class and in this class is a nun who works with HIV positive patients.

I watch this woman pretty much all day from across the table. She wears her habit, her long flowing cotton robes and she has a very pecular countenance. One could say she is plainfaced, chaste, humble, non-assuming, yet at the same time, she wears all these things with a certain panache that communicates...I am a nun, I am plainface, chaste, humble and non-assuming having given my life to God...and you are not.

I then considered the pretty outrageous thought (the class is rather boring), Apostolic women are the representation of the Apostolic (or more specifically the UPC) nuns considering the expectations of the church on the women!

Ask yourself, why are there more nuns than priests, why aren't monks as prolific as nuns, and why is it that there are more women active in the A-church (from a perspective of buy-in) than men?

It is too funny and interesting a contrast and comparison to just let go by, so I had to present it to you people. :D

I also had an epiphany that we have embraced the Catholic tradition of calling each other "Brother and Sister" too.

I love hanging around Catholics, so much clarity it brings forth !!!!! :slaphappy

One thing, I've never heard a nun say or tell me or anyone for that matter they were going to hell, because I didn't follower her dress standard. Unlike the Apostolic who've make it very clear~...;)

[mizpeh]

bump

[Timmy]

I can't believe I actually took the time to read this whole thread. :nah

Can you summarize it for the rest of us? :heeheehee