Have you ever heard of a spiritual laberinth?

[All4one]

If you have ever been to a laberinth at a church, what was it like? Did you feel God in it? I have heard about these before but never at a UPC church.

[A_PoMo]

I am currently leading a creative team about about thirty people to create and present a Labyrinth contemplative prayer walk event. We open to the public in two weeks. I've done this once before and the results were incredible, especially among people who don't go to church.

[iceniez]

I have been in one when I was Chatholic,My take on it is it is a form of witchcraft.Or maybe it was just the people who were running it.The woman there opperated in the spirit of witchcraft.I did not understand this at the time ,but since then God showed me about that situation. I personaly would not do it again because of that reason. in addition it is linked to midevil mystisism and now the New age movement.

[nahkoe]

I have been in one when I was Chatholic,My take on it is it is a form of witchcraft.Or maybe it was just the people who were running it.The woman there opperated in the spirit of witchcraft.I did not understand this at the time ,but since then God showed me about that situation. I personaly would not do it again because of that reason. in addition it is linked to midevil mystisism and now the New age movement.

Bingo.

I wouldn't do it, couldn't do it actually.

[jimmyrrs]

If you have ever been to a laberinth at a church, what was it like? Did you feel God in it? I have heard about these before but never at a UPC church.

Please explain? Are you talking about the Greek Mythology "LABYRINTH" a mazelike structure. Spiritual walks, etc....
I can not find what "laberinth" means.

[mfblume]

Never heard of it. Someone please explain what a spiritual LABYRINTH (I have a pet peeve about spelling correctly - lol - which bugs me the most when I spell incorrectly) is.

[HolyFire]

It has roots in Wicca. I suggest not doing it.

[ronharvey]

Definite Basis in Witch Craft.

But Hey, this is the modern church; anything goes; Right? NOT!

Is it any wonder its main appeal is to the unsaved?

Ron

[mfblume]

Yeah, but what is it?

[ronharvey]

Yeah, but what is it?

http://chamberlinstudio.com/Sculptures/Spiritual_Laberenth/Spiritual_Laberenth.htm

A Pretty good explanation...

Google Page:
http://www.google.com/search?q=spiritual+laberinth&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Ron

[A_PoMo]

You guys have no idea what you're talking about. Labyrinths have been used by Christians for centuries as an aid in contemplative prayer. It's simply a way to help people focus on specific scriptural themes and to pray about them. The labyrinth experience, as we're doing it, takes about an hour to go through and most people take an addition half hour to an hour. When's the last time you could convince a non-church going and/or unbeliever to listen to the Bible and pray for an hour or more? When was the last time you could make a church hating, Christian hating, Bible hating, bi-sexual Goth person change their view of all of the above w/out you having to say a word? That's what happened the last time we did a labyrinth. Not only that, but they invited their friends to come and check it out too. Their only complaint? "You shouldn't have it at a church cuz some of my friends won't come." We did this about three years ago and among the unchurched it was incredibly effective as a spiritual connecting point and an evangelism tool. Of course it appeals to the unsaved! That's who we're trying to reach for Christ! Is your alternative to make sure that our evangelistic efforts repell the very people we're trying to reach? To label it as witchcraft is akin to blasphemy in my mind. Reminds me of when the people accused Jesus of sorcery. In fact the only people that DIDN'T like the Labyrinth were a handful of anti-Catholic Christians who said it was 'too Catholic'. Uh, whatever. So if Catholics pray we're not supposed to pray? That's retarded. Just like any other mode of worship or means of communication there are those who corrupt it for the dark side. But that doesn't mean it can't be powerfully used to bring light into the world. Just because it's different doesn't mean it's heretical or satanic. Open your mind a little and stop looking for the boogey man under every rock.

[dansamy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_Labyrinth

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/labyrinth.htm

http://www.truia.net/Selection1.html

Some links with explanations and pictures.

[mfblume]

I see. Trying to achieve spiritual victory through physical means. lol

[A_PoMo]

Check this one out.

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/paradigm/

[A_PoMo]

I'll make you a deal. If any of you are anywhere near our town (Lodi, California) you're welcome to come over and go through our Labyrinth. If after you go through our Labyrinth and you can show me scripturally how it is wrong I will shut it down and I will buy you dinner at my favorite Mexican place which is just down the street.

[ronharvey]

You guys have no idea what you're talking about. Labyrinths have been used by Christians for centuries as an aid in contemplative prayer. It's simply a way to help people focus on specific scriptural themes and to pray about them. The labyrinth experience, as we're doing it, takes about an hour to go through and most people take an addition half hour to an hour. When's the last time you could convince a non-church going and/or unbeliever to listen to the Bible and pray for an hour or more? We did this about three years ago and among the unchurched it was incredibly effective as a spiritual connecting point and an evangelism tool. Of course it appeals to the unsaved! That's who we're trying to reach for Christ! Is your alternative to make sure that our evangelistic efforts repell the very peope we're trying to reach? To label it as witchcraft is akin to blasphemy in my mind. Reminds me of when the people accused Jesus of sorcery.

Well, Let's see.

Since July 2008 we have baptized almost 400 in Jesus' Name and seen over 300 of them receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Funny, we didn't run them through this Labyrinth to do it and it only took around 15 min per person. If you have never heard of Matt Maddox or Tim Downs you need to.

They can show your church a way and program to raise your % of converts.

Ron

[A_PoMo]

Well, Let's see.

Since July 2008 we have baptized almost 400 in Jesus' Name and seen over 300 of them receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Funny, we didn't run them through this Labyrinth to do it and it only took around 15 min per person. If you have never heard of Matt Maddox or Tim Downs you need to.

They can show your church a way and program to raise your % of converts.

Ron

That's great Ron, I'm very happy for your church. I gurantee you it took more than 15 minutes a person though if you count ALL the time and money that went to your program. Even so, I still think it's great cuz every effort and every dollar that goes into reaching souls is well worth it. I certainly would never criticize someone else's efforts to reach the lost, nor would I say it's witchcraft. Also, I might want to consider that perhaps different methods reach different people and that perhaps the people we are trying to reach in our community may respond differently to those in yours.

[ronharvey]

That's great Ron, I'm very happy for your church. I gurantee you it took more than 15 minutes a person though if you count ALL the time and money that went to your program. Even so, I still think it's great cuz every effort and every dollar that goes into reaching souls is well worth it. I certainly would never criticize someone else's efforts to reach the lost, nor would I say it's witchcraft. Also, I might want to consider that perhaps different methods reach different people and that perhaps the people we are trying to reach in our community may respond differently to those in yours.

I admit I am simplifying the outreach a tad but the results for a church that has run an average of 135 to being able to create a daughter assembly in this short of time is nothing but God and his mercy.

However, since I came from a background of witchcraft and false religions (even those called Christian) the moment I saw the title of the thread I already knew its background.

I won't mix pagan and Christian practices to "bring" people to Christ as it leaves the door open for a plethora of other mixtures.

Ron

[nahkoe]

Hey, APoMo, I do know what I'm talking about.

I don't even know how to take your post.

I'm also trying to decide if I should just quit opening my mouth. Last time I called something witchcraft, that *is*, (somewhere else) I got accused of seeing a demon under every bush. Here it seems you're accusing me of seeing a boogey man under every bush. Dude...10 years of studying witchcraft, 8 of practicing, I know what's witchcraft and what's not. I'm also pretty mighty familiar with demons and the demonic, although I do admit to a general lack of familiarity with boogey men. :tease

But ok, since I like opening my mouth...

I don't know if churches should use labyrinths or not as evangelism and outreach tools.

*I* can not go there. *I* used labyrinths as meditation tools (along with mandalas). *I* cast within labyrinths, as well as used the drawings within a sacred circle. *I* associate labyrinths with powerful magick. *I* am aware of the mind altering abilities that exist (whether one taps into those or not) within a labyrinth. *I* would hesitate to use something of this nature to reach out to anyone from the world. Witchcraft and paganism are very open to embracing whatever spiritual path that works for you. I would not want someone to think you can embrace both paganism and Christianity. It's not possible to do that, and it's extremely dangerous to try. (oh no..I'm seeing demons under bushes...:aaa) *I* would want to separate myself and my outreach from anything that could possibly create confusion.

Should you use it? I don't care.

You guys have no idea what you're talking about. Labyrinths have been used by Christians for centuries as an aid in contemplative prayer. It's simply a way to help people focus on specific scriptural themes and to pray about them. The labyrinth experience, as we're doing it, takes about an hour to go through and most people take an addition half hour to an hour. When's the last time you could convince a non-church going and/or unbeliever to listen to the Bible and pray for an hour or more? When was the last time you could make a church hating, Christian hating, Bible hating, bi-sexual Goth person change their view of all of the above w/out you having to say a word? That's what happened the last time we did a labyrinth. Not only that, but they invited their friends to come and check it out too. Their only complaint? "You shouldn't have it at a church cuz some of my friends won't come." We did this about three years ago and among the unchurched it was incredibly effective as a spiritual connecting point and an evangelism tool. Of course it appeals to the unsaved! That's who we're trying to reach for Christ! Is your alternative to make sure that our evangelistic efforts repell the very people we're trying to reach? To label it as witchcraft is akin to blasphemy in my mind. Reminds me of when the people accused Jesus of sorcery. In fact the only people that DIDN'T like the Labyrinth were a handful of anti-Catholic Christians who said it was 'too Catholic'. Uh, whatever. So if Catholics pray we're not supposed to pray? That's retarded. Just like any other mode of worship or means of communication there are those who corrupt it for the dark side. But that doesn't mean it can't be powerfully used to bring light into the world. Just because it's different doesn't mean it's heretical or satanic. Open your mind a little and stop looking for the boogey man under every rock.

[nahkoe]

I admit I am simplifying the outreach a tad but the results for a church that has run an average of 135 to being able to create a daughter assembly in this short of time is nothing but God and his mercy.

However, since I came from a background of witchcraft and false religions (even those called Christian) the moment I saw the title of the thread I already knew its background.

I won't mix pagan and Christian practices to "bring" people to Christ as it leaves the door open for a plethora of other mixtures.

Ron

Exactly.

[A_PoMo]

I admit I am simplifying the outreach a tad but the results for a church that has run an average of 135 to being able to create a daughter assembly in this short of time is nothing but God and his mercy.

However, since I came from a background of witchcraft and false religions (even those called Christian) the moment I saw the title of the thread I already knew its background.

I won't mix pagan and Christian practices to "bring" people to Christ as it leaves the door open for a plethora of other mixtures.

Ron

sigh, it's NOT a pagan practice ron. if the labyrinth is a pagan practice of worship and prayer then quite alot of what we do in church is pagan because quite alot of it is of pagan origin.

what you are describing above is syncretism. using the labyrinth as a tool for contemplative prayer is NOT syncretism as we are NOT, as the Romans did, adding doctrinal/philosophical elements of another religion to our own and creating a 'new' faith. we retain our orthodoxy, and the labyrinth narrative we use clearly is rich in christian theology. we are merely chaning our orthopraxy in some respects. to say that is syncrestic or smacks of necromancy is ridiculously uninformed.

a model or form is morally neutral. it is not wrong to do something merely because unbelievers do it as well. if that were true then jehovah wouldn't have required blood sacrifice in the OT. it's the object of the worship that matters.

but, if it bothers you that much then i certainly respect your reticence, ala I Corinthians.

[A_PoMo]

Hey, APoMo, I do know what I'm talking about.

I don't even know how to take your post.

I'm also trying to decide if I should just quit opening my mouth. Last time I called something witchcraft, that *is*, (somewhere else) I got accused of seeing a demon under every bush. Here it seems you're accusing me of seeing a boogey man under every bush. Dude...10 years of studying witchcraft, 8 of practicing, I know what's witchcraft and what's not. I'm also pretty mighty familiar with demons and the demonic, although I do admit to a general lack of familiarity with boogey men. :tease

But ok, since I like opening my mouth...

I don't know if churches should use labyrinths or not as evangelism and outreach tools.

*I* can not go there. *I* used labyrinths as meditation tools (along with mandalas). *I* cast within labyrinths, as well as used the drawings within a sacred circle. *I* associate labyrinths with powerful magick. *I* am aware of the mind altering abilities that exist (whether one taps into those or not) within a labyrinth. *I* would hesitate to use something of this nature to reach out to anyone from the world. Witchcraft and paganism are very open to embracing whatever spiritual path that works for you. I would not want someone to think you can embrace both paganism and Christianity. It's not possible to do that, and it's extremely dangerous to try. (oh no..I'm seeing demons under bushes...:aaa) *I* would want to separate myself and my outreach from anything that could possibly create confusion.

Should you use it? I don't care.

what you forget though is that labyrinths have been used for hundreds of years by Christians as well. I realize that paganism is open to all paths. but if you took the time to read/listen to the narrative of what we're doing you would see that there is NO WAY it leads to anything but Christ. there is nothing in it that embraces paganism and/or tries to embrace paganism. you may disagree with some of the doctrinal positions but it these arguments are CLEARLY within the bounds of Christianity.

let me ask you this. since pagan religions use music, should we forgo music? they use prayer, should we let go of prayer? what about meditation? what about gathering together in groups? what about fasting? i could go on. the form is neutral. it is not a labyrinth that is good or evil. it is the object of the labyrinth and to whom it points that determines whether it is good or evil. the same applies to music, prayer, meditation, etc....

like i told ron, if it bothers you then you're welcome to not participate. i just bristle a little at being accused of syncretism and dabbling in the occult and such when what we are doing is the opposite of that. again, it reminds me of the pharisees who accused jesus of witchcraft when his methods clashed with their worship culture.

btw: YOU are the boogey man. :friend

[ronharvey]

Sigh, it's NOT a pagan practice Ron. if the labyrinth is a pagan practice of worship and prayer then quite a lot of what we do in Church is Pagan because quite a lot of it is of pagan origin.

That depends on you; I don't observe Christ-Mass, Ishtar, All hallows Eve, or any other Pagan Holy-day.



What you are describing above is Syncretism. using the labyrinth as a tool for contemplative prayer is NOT Syncretism as we are NOT, as the Romans did, adding doctrinal/philosophical elements of another religion to our own and creating a 'new' faith.

I never suggested that; an outcome of a "New Faith" but it IS one of the potential outcomes our FAITH is proven by the THINGS we DO (James told us that).


We retain our orthodoxy, and the labyrinth narrative we use clearly is rich in Christian theology. we are merely changing our orthopraxy in some respects. to say that is syncrestic or smacks of necromancy is ridiculously uninformed.

Or that is is is grossly ignored.


A model or form is morally neutral.
.... it's the object of the worship that matters....

It is?

Isaiah 66:17 "They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD."

Jeremiah 10:1 "Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:"

Jeremiah 10:2 "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them."

Jeremiah 10:3 "For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe."

Jeremiah 10:4 "They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

Jeremiah 10:5 "They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good."

Jeremiah 10:6 "Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might."

This is God's opinion of a decorated Evergreen tree that people stand around and consume Christ-Mass Ham during it's Holy Day.



It is not wrong to do something merely because unbelievers do it as well. if that were true then Jehovah wouldn't have required blood sacrifice in the OT. it's the object of the worship that matters.

Yahweh required it BEFORE anyone else did it. Therefore this statement does not qualify your assertion.



But, if it bothers you that much then I certainly respect your reticence, ala I Corinthians.

It doesn't bother me one bit, neither am I offended. I am however giving you godly advice on the subject you asked about and entertained opinions on.

Ron

[ronharvey]

Tim Downs

http://www.gowinsouls.com/

Matt Maddox

http://www.swbootcampfire.com/

Ron

[nahkoe]

I'm not so sure I should really go there...but we'll see if I actually post this or not when I'm done.

what you forget though is that labyrinths have been used for hundreds of years by Christians as well. I realize that paganism is open to all paths.

Use by Christians does not reassure me.

but if you took the time to read/listen to the narrative of what we're doing you would see that there is NO WAY it leads to anything but Christ. there is nothing in it that embraces paganism and/or tries to embrace paganism. you may disagree with some of the doctrinal positions but it these arguments are CLEARLY within the bounds of Christianity.

I did read what you're saying. I know you believe there's no way it'll lead to anything but Christ. I believe otherwise. I'm not trying to convince you, I simply gave the reasons why *I* would not use it. It's your decision what to do with this, and how to use it.

let me ask you this. since pagan religions use music, should we forgo music? they use prayer, should we let go of prayer? what about meditation? what about gathering together in groups? what about fasting? i could go on. the form is neutral. it is not a labyrinth that is good or evil. it is the object of the labyrinth and to whom it points that determines whether it is good or evil. the same applies to music, prayer, meditation, etc....

And here is where what I believe and know by experience to be true conflicts directly with what you believe and know by experience to be true. It's also where I would have to insert facts and opinions and scripture if I was trying to convince you to see things my way, but I'm not and never set out with any intention of doing that.

like i told ron, if it bothers you then you're welcome to not participate. i just bristle a little at being accused of syncretism and dabbling in the occult and such when what we are doing is the opposite of that. again, it reminds me of the pharisees who accused jesus of witchcraft when his methods clashed with their worship culture.

You are right..you're bristling a little. And I don't quite get why. I provided my opinion of the matter. You read into it whatever you wanted to..apparently. I didn't set out with any intention of convincing anyone of anything. You have the right to read what I said and discard it as irrelevant, or read what I said and consider it. It's nothing personal to me. I've made no accusations of any kind, and I won't.

it reminds me of the pharisees who accused jesus of witchcraft when his methods clashed with their worship culture.

I am extremely frustrated by this statement.


btw: YOU are the boogey man. :friend

And that, is just funny. :ursofunny

[nahkoe]

If you have ever been to a laberinth at a church, what was it like? Did you feel God in it? I have heard about these before but never at a UPC church.

Ok, let me answer the original post since I've jumped in all over everywhere else in this thread.

I haven't been to a labyrinth at a church before.

I have been to labyrinths and mazes other places though.

I've felt God at an alter in the middle of a circle while summoning demons...I don't necessarily consider the presence of God an indication of whether or not an activity is within His will. :tease

[mfblume]

Oh, some believe the end justifies the means?

[A_PoMo]

ok ya'll, this has degenerated into another aff tit for tat debate and i for one am not interested in playing that game. it's rarely fruitful. i was responding to someone's question asking if anybody had been to a spiritual labyrinth at a church. so far it seems i'm the only one who has in this discussion which seems odd since so many seem against it when they've never been to one. hmmm....

you all can believe that labyrinths are of the devil and believe that anything pagan is evil when i can all but guarantee you that stuff you do in your churches every church service has pagan orgins but because it's been redeemed for christ and is part of your religious tradition you have no problems with it. perhaps you should do some reading on that. i'd be happy to recommend a book or two if you're interested.

i understand that some people get weirded out about labyrinths and that's your perogative. you say you've experienced demonic stuff in them and i believe you. i, on the other hand, have seen personally labyrinth's used with a christian pov make HUGE impacts on people's lives and have seen people changed by the holy spirit in them. is God's household divided? I think not.

let me say again, a christian labyrinth such as ours, will NOT lead to paganism any more than your sunday service will lead to worship of ba'al. it teaches and preaches the word of God and leads people to Christ and helps them examine their hearts before God and make commitments to God and to Christian community, just like a good church service in any Bible believing church. that's a good thing and, again, i bristle at claiming that a good work of God is evil. That's just plain wrong, and dangerous imo.

I find it rather interesting that none of you have been to a Christian, Bible based, spirit-filled labyrinth experience yet you are so quick to stand in judgement and poo poo something that I have seen and used personally with great success.

like i said before, come to our labyrinth. and then judge. i dare you.

[All4one]

A_PoMo , when and where is your labrynth going to be?
P.S.(for you spelling wizards-Look it up and you will see it to be spelled both ways - laberinth and labyrinth)

[mfblume]

apomo,

You claim people are being closed minded with you. The street goes both ways. You seem to not want to think anything could be wrong with it and will not consider it may be wrong. So let's not be cavalier about this, huh?

[A_PoMo]

A_PoMo , when and where is your labrynth going to be?
P.S.(for you spelling wizards-Look it up and you will see it to be spelled both ways - laberinth and labyrinth)

www.myspace.com/labyrinth_in_lodi

All the info is there. Hope to see you there.

[A_PoMo]

apomo,

You claim people are being closed minded with you. The street goes both ways. You seem to not want to think anything could be wrong with it and will not consider it may be wrong. So let's not be cavalier about this, huh?

Cavalier? Is that the same as 'knee-jerk' negative reaction against something that one knows next to nothing about? That's what I'm reacting against. That a Godly, Bible based method of worship and evangelism is being labeled as "satanic' by people that haven't even taken the time to inquire as to what is actually happening and by people who admittedly have never even been to one of these events. I find that sort of cavalier judgement to be irresponsible. It's like trying to write a review of a book you've never read.

I am not close-minded. I'm open to correction and instruction. But I have done the research. I realize that some have used Labyrinths for 'the dark side'. I addition, unlike anybody else in this discussion, have actually done this before and have personally witnessed the working of the Holy Spirit in it and have seen it impact lives for the good. I dunno, but that seems like a pretty good thing to me.

I realize that some will freak out about it and some will be uncomfortable with it due to their past, either in the church or out of it. I respect that. But I also know that the church today uses many techniques and elements in worshp that have pagan origins and these in no way impede the Holy Spirit or cause the church to go down the slippery slope of a 'plethora of mixtures'.

The Labyrinth is a prayer walk. It uses art to help people focus on scripture, to ask God to help them forgive people, to re-set their priorities, to strengthen their relationship (or begin) with God, to help them connect in faith community. These are all clearly Biblical ideas and, indeed, the purpose of the church. Our event strongly incorporates all five purposes of the church; worship, evangelism, discipleship, fellowship, and compassion. I struggle to see how any Christian could object to that.

But, nobody has inquired as to exactly what we're doing. Nobody has heard/read the narrative we're using. Nobody has asked about the art we're using. Nobody has asked if the event clearly points people to Christ. Nobody has asked about the intentional witnessing and ministering that will happen there. Nobody has asked about the follow up we'll be doing. So, based on little to no information people call it demonic, syncrestic, and evil. ???? And I'm the one that's cavalier and close-minded? At least I've taken the time to thoroughly examine BOTH sides of the issue.

But, like people in the Bible who didn't understand Christ's methods and who couldn't fit his theology and worship praxis into their theology/worship system, they labeled it Satanic. Ok, that's fine I guess. It's just another example of Christian operating from a position of fear, the modus operandi in some Christian circles. And I used to do that too. But not any longer. It's not an attempt make the 'ends justify the means' or anything like that. It's just us attempting to be all things for all men in order to save some.

(btw: i may or may not get a chance to reply to any future comments. if i don't, please don't take it personally. we're planning a soft opening of our event this weekend and i'm slammed. i shouldn't have even responded to this thread at all to begin with. but i did. it's the second time in the last few days that i've regretted posting on aff. )

[mizpeh]

(btw: i may or may not get a chance to reply to any future comments. if i don't, please don't take it personally. we're planning a soft opening of our event this weekend and i'm slammed. i shouldn't have even responded to this thread at all to begin with. but i did. it's the second time in the last few days that i've regretted posting on aff. )
Come on, Apomo, it's a good thing when someone disagrees with us. It's good to hear all sides of an argument for or against something. :)

1 Cor 11:18-29 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.


FWIW, I had never heard of a prayer labrynth until reading this thread. If I lived near Lodi and not clear on the other side of the country, I'd go and visit and see for myself.

[ronharvey]

ok ya'll, this has degenerated into another aff tit for tat debate and i for one am not interested in playing that game. it's rarely fruitful. i was responding to someone's question asking if anybody had been to a spiritual labyrinth at a church. so far it seems i'm the only one who has in this discussion which seems odd since so many seem against it when they've never been to one. hmmm....

you all can believe that labyrinths are of the devil and believe that anything pagan is evil when i can all but guarantee you that stuff you do in your churches every church service has pagan orgins but because it's been redeemed for christ and is part of your religious tradition you have no problems with it. perhaps you should do some reading on that. i'd be happy to recommend a book or two if you're interested.

i understand that some people get weirded out about labyrinths and that's your perogative. you say you've experienced demonic stuff in them and i believe you. i, on the other hand, have seen personally labyrinth's used with a christian pov make HUGE impacts on people's lives and have seen people changed by the holy spirit in them. is God's household divided? I think not.

let me say again, a christian labyrinth such as ours, will NOT lead to paganism any more than your sunday service will lead to worship of ba'al. it teaches and preaches the word of God and leads people to Christ and helps them examine their hearts before God and make commitments to God and to Christian community, just like a good church service in any Bible believing church. that's a good thing and, again, i bristle at claiming that a good work of God is evil. That's just plain wrong, and dangerous imo.

I find it rather interesting that none of you have been to a Christian, Bible based, spirit-filled labyrinth experience yet you are so quick to stand in judgement and poo poo something that I have seen and used personally with great success.

like i said before, come to our labyrinth. and then judge. i dare you.

There has been no debate, if it was one; you lost.

You are the one who is upset and offended.

Two persons here have a background in this, one has brought the scriptures to bare on your arguments and the others simply used godly deduction and Christian reasoning to realize it is witchcraft disguised as Christian.

In the 60' through the 90's the old saying "Don't knock it if you haven't tried it" prevailed to a very loose and spiritually mixed society of anything goes.

Through the Methodist churches of the 70's and 80's Astrology began finding its way into the mainstream churches arguing it wasn't the same as the Astrology found in the Bible.

It spawned a generation of Christian Astrologers who pointed to Nostradamus and Johannes Kepler as Christians who lived for God and practiced Astrology and since they were Christians they wouldn't do anything against God; right?

You say that Christian churches have used them for 100's of years, yet you have provided no historical evidence. Those who have looked them up through Google and other search engines have found nothing that provides any historical references that CHRISTIANS used them at all.

Care to fill in the gaps there?

Scripture tells us to shun the very appearance of evil.

This is not a clothe line issue, listen to what you have said; "Christian labyrinth such as ours, will NOT lead to paganism any more than your Sunday service will lead to worship of Baal" But it did. Your practice is a grain of sand in the beach of evidence.

Ron

[All4one]

:prayingI will attempt tp go see this prayer walk labrynth. I'll let you know if it turns me into a devil worshipper.http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/smilies/prayer.gif

[mfblume]

Once again, spiritual progress cannot occur through physical effort. That is occultic.

[Timmy]

Once again, spiritual progress cannot occur through physical effort. That is occultic.

Going to church is physical effort.

[A_PoMo]

Come on, Apomo, it's a good thing when someone disagrees with us. It's good to hear all sides of an argument for or against something. :)

1 Cor 11:18-29 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.


FWIW, I had never heard of a prayer labrynth until reading this thread. If I lived near Lodi and not clear on the other side of the country, I'd go and visit and see for myself.


miz, it's not the 'debate' that i regret. it's that i don't have time to defend my position. all i have time for is give my opinion and skedadle outta here. unfortunatley people may think i've evading, etc... i ran into the same problem a few days ago on the 'women in ministry thread'. i just don't have time (or desire) to do the tit-for-tat thing. i also don't have time to other people's homework for them. ron claims he can't find christian usage of labyrinth on the internet, yet oodles of references to christian use of labyrinths can be found in a simple google search. i don't have time for that kind of nonsense. we've been using them since the 13th century in europe.

our event uses biblically based poetry, original art, music, film, and ambience to help people focus on twelve biblical concepts and to interact with the ideas by interacting with art and making personal commitments in regards to each of them. it's a great event and was effective when we did it three years ago.

i just get little twitchy when people say our labyrinth is satanic and/or try to push the tired old argument that 'well, it COULD lead to all sorts of naughty stuff...'. whatever. it's not, it won't...just relax and stop living in fear. god is bigger than all that.

[A_PoMo]

Going to church is physical effort.

exactly.

singing requires effort, clapping your hands and raising your arms requires effort, running the aisles and jumping over pews requires effort, study of the bible requires effort, baptizing someone requires effort, preaching requires effort, teaching a sunday school class requires effort. most churches these days use art on a screen of some sort and nobody is claiming it's syncrestic.
i suppose all the effort that went into the two temples was useless too.

we don't have a problem using art in our sunday school classes for our kids. so why can't we use it for the adults? since when is art and prayer against our religion?


people are just scared of what they don't understand or are too lazy to investigate the facts before making pronouncements of judgement and 'wisdom'.

[All4one]

I have been in many victory marches around the church, thats kind of like a prayer walk, only with less fore thought!

[mfblume]

Once again, spiritual progress cannot occur through physical effort. That is occultic.Going to church is physical effort.

Oh please. lol. You missed what I said. SPIRITUAL PROGRESS. You can go to church and moronically get nothing out of it. The HEART alone is where we make spiritual progress. Or do you believe God sees your feet carry you to church and says, WHAMMO, you're spiritual now!?

[mfblume]

exactly.

singing requires effort,It can be done and the heart not change and it do nothing for you spiritually,.

clapping your hands and raising your arms requires effort, running the aisles and jumping over pews requires effort, study of the bible requires effort, baptizing someone requires effort, preaching requires effort, teaching a sunday school class requires effort. most churches these days use art on a screen of some sort and nobody is claiming it's syncrestic.

None of those things in and of themselves causes you to progress spiritually. Might as well do a powow and whoop and run around naked, to think those things make you progress spiritually of themselves.

i suppose all the effort that went into the two temples was useless too.

Without the heart of man reaching to God, yes! You actually believe a physical act alone causes us to become spiritual? You ARE in trouble,. bro.

we don't have a problem using art in our sunday school classes for our kids. so why can't we use it for the adults? since when is art and prayer against our religion?

people are just scared of what they don't understand or are too lazy to investigate the facts before making pronouncements of judgement and 'wisdom'.

No, people are unaware that God forbids taking anything from pagan circles and "baptizing" them into the church for SPIRITUAL relationships with God.

Ezekiel 20:39 KJV As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter also, if ye will not hearken unto me: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.

God's name is not to be involved in religious rites and practices that He did not ordain. Where is a spiritual Labyrinth in the bible? No where. So do not add to the word and claim we can serve God with it.

God told Israel how to carry the ark of the covenant on shoulders of the priests, but they concocted a new way to do that and put it on a new ox cart like the Philistines did. So God sent death to them for not following the ordained manner.

And He said this:

1 Chronicles 15:13 KJV For because ye did it not at the first, the LORD our God made a breach upon us, for that we sought him not after the due order.


God has a due order in worship, and we must abide by it. It is in the Word.

Israel just put the ark on the ox cart. What was so bad about that? Why would God kill Uzzah over it? Oh that meanie God!

Or else go and use sceances and worship God! Go and take the Catholic statues and pray to Jesus with them. Rub Buddha's fat little belly and say, "Thank you, Jesus."

The bible says to learn not the way of the Heathen. Those labyrinths are used in other religions!

Some are too lazy to study their bibles and learn what is acceptable and what is not.

[ronharvey]

It can be done and the heart not change and it do nothing for you spiritually,.



None of those things in and of themselves causes you to progress spiritually. Might as well do a powow and whoop and run around naked, to think those things make you progress spiritually of themselves.



Without the heart of man reaching to God, yes! You actually believe a physical act alone causes us to become spiritual? You ARE in trouble,. bro.



No, people are unaware that God forbids taking anything from pagan circles and "baptizing" them into the church for SPIRITUAL relationships with God.

Ezekiel 20:39 KJV As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter also, if ye will not hearken unto me: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.

God's name is not to be involved in religious rites and practices that He did not ordain. Where is a spiritual Labyrinth in the bible? No where. So do not add to the word and claim we can serve God with it.

God told Israel how to carry the ark of the covenant on shoulders of the priests, but they concocted a new way to do that and put it on a new ox cart like the Philistines did. So God sent death to them for not following the ordained manner.

And He said this:



God has a due order in worship, and we must abide by it. It is in the Word.

Israel just put the ark on the ox cart. What was so bad about that? Why would God kill Uzzah over it? Oh that meanie God!

Or else go and use sceances and worship God! Go and take the Catholic statues and pray to Jesus with them. Rub Buddha's fat little belly and say, "Thank you, Jesus."

The bible says to learn not the way of the Heathen. Those labyrinths are used in other religions!

Some are too lazy to study their bibles and learn what is acceptable and what is not.

Great Points; Here, Here! :chat

Ron
:shockamoo

[Timmy]

Oh please. lol. You missed what I said. SPIRITUAL PROGRESS. You can go to church and moronically get nothing out of it. The HEART alone is where we make spiritual progress. Or do you believe God sees your feet carry you to church and says, WHAMMO, you're spiritual now!?

No, but I don't think anyone's claimed that a labyrinth will do that, either.

[Timmy]

. . .
The bible says to learn not the way of the Heathen. Those labyrinths are used in other religions!
. . .

So are speaking in tongues, meditating, prayer, and singing.

[A_PoMo]

It can be done and the heart not change and it do nothing for you spiritually,.



None of those things in and of themselves causes you to progress spiritually. Might as well do a powow and whoop and run around naked, to think those things make you progress spiritually of themselves.



Without the heart of man reaching to God, yes! You actually believe a physical act alone causes us to become spiritual? You ARE in trouble,. bro.



No, people are unaware that God forbids taking anything from pagan circles and "baptizing" them into the church for SPIRITUAL relationships with God.

Ezekiel 20:39 KJV As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter also, if ye will not hearken unto me: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.

God's name is not to be involved in religious rites and practices that He did not ordain. Where is a spiritual Labyrinth in the bible? No where. So do not add to the word and claim we can serve God with it.

God told Israel how to carry the ark of the covenant on shoulders of the priests, but they concocted a new way to do that and put it on a new ox cart like the Philistines did. So God sent death to them for not following the ordained manner.

And He said this:



God has a due order in worship, and we must abide by it. It is in the Word.

Israel just put the ark on the ox cart. What was so bad about that? Why would God kill Uzzah over it? Oh that meanie God!

Or else go and use sceances and worship God! Go and take the Catholic statues and pray to Jesus with them. Rub Buddha's fat little belly and say, "Thank you, Jesus."

The bible says to learn not the way of the Heathen. Those labyrinths are used in other religions!

Some are too lazy to study their bibles and learn what is acceptable and what is not.


ok BRO, no i don't believe that physical acts make us spiritual. i NEVER said that. you put those words in my mouth, BRO. that's kinda like reading your own presuppostions into scripture, and that's not good. you are taking this waaaaaaay to far and insuating all sorts of crazy stuff that nobody is talking about except you and ron. you're building straw man arguments and i refuse to allow you to stick the junk on me. what you are talking about is so far removed from what i'm doing it's laughable. what you are proposing, ironically, seems to be a gnostic form of worship, something i am certainly not in favor of by any means.

where is the organ in the bible? where is a pulpit in the bible? where is a church building with pews and sound systems in the bible? where are pianos in the bible? where are sunday school rooms in the bible? where are bulletins in the bible? where are power point presentations in the bible? come on dude! did they have aff in the bible? just because it's not in the bible doesn't mean it can't be used for the kingdom! i fail to see the logic of your assertions.

you guys need to read "a brief history of christian worship' by jame f white and 'worship old & new' by robert e webber. it may open your eyes to some of the 'pagan' things we all do in our protestant worship services. btw, tell ron that if he will google "labyrinth" he can easily find stuff on Christian use of Labyrinths. He'll be amazed at the dirth of information out there.

the physical things we do in the labyrinth and the experience itself are nothing more than alternative formatting of what you and i do each sunday in church. we physically worship in our churches on sundays, according to our traditions, and in doing so we come in contact with holy God. that's all we're doing with labyrinth. you guys are getting all wound up over nothing.

our labyrinth is not a seance. it is not idolatry. it is a wholly christian event. it is a labyrinth in name only, if you want to use the others as a definition. in fact, if i were to change the name to "Jesus Name prayer walk" you guys would be first in line to come. It's just a name, they're only walls and art and colored lights (gasp!). there is no boogey man here. jesus christ is the center and focus of this event, not satan. we do the same things you do in church. we use music, scripture, prayer, and art to worship god and to connect people to god. we've just re-arranged the format and created a new model. for the life of me I cannot see why your all lathered up about this. the name is provacative, and purposefully so. but the basic elements and building blocks of what we're doing is the same as what we do in church. the difference is that we're doing it on an individual level instead of enmasse. are you Catholic? Do you have to do Mass for it to be legal?

i fail to see how the scriptural examples you've provided above have anything to do with what we are doing in this context. it seems more like pretext to me. I am well aware of God's hatred of idolatry (including bibliolatry) and syncretism. What we are doing is neither.

Ok, so here's the deal. I'm done arguing about this. You can believe what you want and pay hired guns to come in an do your evangelism for you. I'd rather figure out a way to reach post-modern people as the modern methods are becoming increasingly ineffective among post-modern generations (a fact that is so well accepted that it's non-debatable). keep arguing about it if you want. I have work to do.

peace2u.

[nahkoe]

I just get little twitchy when people say our labyrinth is satanic and/or try to push the tired old argument that 'well, it COULD lead to all sorts of naughty stuff...'. whatever. it's not, it won't...just relax and stop living in fear. god is bigger than all that.

I didn't say that your labyrinth is satanic. I didn't try to push any "tired old argument" about anything it could lead to.

I am quite familiar with the history of labyrinths and their use within Christianity, and without.

I said nothing about your labyrinth. I did try to explain where I was coming from, trying to be very clear that I was speaking only personally.

I also believe that two people can look at the exact same information and come to two very different conclusions, and it's ok.

[nahkoe]

people are just scared of what they don't understand or are too lazy to investigate the facts before making pronouncements of judgement and 'wisdom'.

And this is what bothers me the most about your posts. You're making quite a judgment without having any idea what sort of information I do have that I base my own personal decisions on. And it feels an awful lot like you're calling me lazy.

[nahkoe]

our labyrinth is not a seance. it is not idolatry. it is a wholly christian event. it is a labyrinth in name only, if you want to use the others as a definition. in fact, if i were to change the name to "Jesus Name prayer walk" you guys would be first in line to come. It's just a name, they're only walls and art and colored lights (gasp!). there is no boogey man here. jesus christ is the center and focus of this event, not satan. we do the same things you do in church. we use music, scripture, prayer, and art to worship god and to connect people to god. we've just re-arranged the format and created a new model. for the life of me I cannot see why your all lathered up about this. the name is provacative, and purposefully so. but the basic elements and building blocks of what we're doing is the same as what we do in church. the difference is that we're doing it on an individual level instead of enmasse. are you Catholic? Do you have to do Mass for it to be legal?

APoMo, I wouldn't be there. Because of what the idea brings to my mind, and what it means to me.

*I don't care what decision you make with the information you have* But I would not be there no matter what you called this. Maybe I *am* living in fear of my past, but I've also just walked the most incredible (in every sense of the word) journey out of it. *I* would rather steer quite clear of anything remotely tied to my past right now. But I really don't bloody care what you do. I assume you're an adult who is capable of researching and making your own decisions, and I respect that. Please respect my right to state my opinion and experience.

[ronharvey]

ok BRO, no i don't believe that physical acts make us spiritual. i NEVER said that. you put those words in my mouth, BRO. that's kinda like reading your own presuppositions into scripture, and that's not good. you are taking this waaaaaaay to far and insinuating all sorts of crazy stuff that nobody is talking about except you and Ron.


Oh, you didn't know there were others who posted the same things on this thread?


you're building straw man arguments and i refuse to allow you to stick the junk on me. what you are talking about is so far removed from what I'm doing it's laughable. what you are proposing, ironically, seems to be a gnostic form of worship, something i am certainly not in favor of by any means.

I haven't seen you laugh yet, you keep telling how bristled you are over what we have said.


where is the organ in the bible?

Genesis 4:21 "And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ."

Job 21:12 "They take the timbrel and harp, and rejoice at the sound of the organ."

Job 30:31 "My harp also is turned to mourning, and my organ into the voice of them that weep."

Psalms 150:4 "Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs."



Where is a pulpit in the bible?


Nehemiah 8:4 "And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam"


Where is a church building with pews and sound systems in the bible?

They are called synagogues and electronics did not exist then.


Where are pianos in the bible?


Habakkuk 3:19 "The LORD God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments."

Isaiah 38:20 "The LORD was ready to save me: therefore we will sing my songs to the stringed instruments all the days of our life in the house of the LORD."

Psalms 150:4 "Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs"


Where are Sunday school rooms in the bible?


They worshiped on the Sabbath as they should have.
The Baptist started the splitting up of the families into groups.
God wanted children and parents in the same room of worship and learning.


where are bulletins in the bible?


2 Chronicles 30:6 "So the posts went with the letters from the king and his princes throughout all Israel and Judah, and according to the commandment of the king, saying, Ye children of Israel, turn again unto the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and he will return to the remnant of you, that are escaped out of the hand of the kings of Assyria."

2 Chronicles 30:10 "So the posts passed from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh even unto Zebulun: but they laughed them to scorn, and mocked them."

Esther 8:10 "And he wrote in the king Ahasuerus' name, and sealed it with the king's ring, and sent letters by posts on horseback, and riders on mules, camels, and young dromedaries:"

Esther 8:14 "So the posts that rode upon mules and camels went out, being hastened and pressed on by the king's commandment. And the decree was given at Shushan the palace."

What is a bulletin but a letter or a post.


where are power point presentations in the bible?


1 Corinthians 4:20 "For the kingdom of God is not in WORD, but in POWER"
Sounds like a POINT to me! :ursofunny



come on dude! did they have aff in the bible?


Acts 15:7 "And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe."

Acts 19:8 "And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God."

Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Sounds like what we do here on AFF:friend



just because it's not in the bible doesn't mean it can't be used for the kingdom! i fail to see the logic of your assertions.

So, you admit this is not a form or content of worship found in scripture.

Leviticus 10:1 "And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not."

Numbers 26:61 "And Nadab and Abihu died, when they offered strange fire before the LORD."

I know your still alive, God is long suffering. Remember, we only need 1 example to demonstrate God's thoughts on the matter.
1. Adam eating of the forbidden Tree.
2. Picking up sticks on the Sabbath.
3. Offering Strange Fire.
4. Lying to the Holy Ghost.

The Bible does not need to give multiple examples of his judgment on a given subject for us to "take note."


you guys need to read "a brief history of Christian worship' by jame f white and 'worship old & new' by Robert e Webber. it may open your eyes to some of the 'pagan' things we all do in our protestant worship services. btw, tell ron that if he will Google "labyrinth" he can easily find stuff on Christian use of Labyrinths. He'll be amazed at the dirth of information out there.

Well alright, I'll just start doing all those things God said not to do because Catholics and Protestants do it!

Where's my Tiny Balm??? (O Tannenbaum for the slow among us)


the physical things we do in the labyrinth and the experience itself are nothing more than alternative formatting of what you and i do each Sunday in church. we physically worship in our churches on Sundays, according to our traditions, and in doing so we come in contact with holy God. that's all we're doing with labyrinth. you guys are getting all wound up over nothing.

Why is it when someone disagrees with you, you consider them 'upset' or 'wound up'?

You ask for our opinion, we gave it: nuff said



our labyrinth is not a séance. it is not idolatry. it is a wholly Christian event.


But you said it is not found in the bible. How then can it be a "WHOLLY CHRISTIAN EVENT?"


it is a labyrinth in name only, if you want to use the others as a definition. in fact, if i were to change the name to "Jesus Name prayer walk" you guys would be first in line to come.

Nope.


It's just a name, they're only walls and art and colored lights (gasp!). there is no boogey man here. Jesus Christ is the center and focus of this event, not Satan.

Like Christmas replaced Christ with Santa (Nimrod). It was outlawed in this country and in England because it was Catholic/ Ancient Paganism.


we do the same things you do in church. we use music, scripture, prayer, and art to worship god and to connect people to god. we've just re-arranged the format and created a new model. for the life of me I cannot see why your all lathered up about this. the name is provocative, and purposefully so. but the basic elements and building blocks of what we're doing is the same as what we do in church. the difference is that we're doing it on an individual level instead of enmasse. are you Catholic? Do you have to do Mass for it to be legal?

i fail to see how the scriptural examples you've provided above have anything to do with what we are doing in this context. it seems more like pretext to me. I am well aware of God's hatred of idolatry (including bibliography) and syncretism. What we are doing is neither.

Ok, so here's the deal. I'm done arguing about this. You can believe what you want and pay hired guns to come in an do your evangelism for you. I'd rather figure out a way to reach post-modern people as the modern methods are becoming increasingly ineffective among post-modern generations (a fact that is so well accepted that it's non-debatable). keep arguing about it if you want. I have work to do.
peace2u.

Blindness in part has happened to Israel...
Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins"

Sin is the transgression of the Law...
1 John 3:4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

If you can learn the way of the heathen and incorporate it into your worship in violation of God's Law: great!

Matthew 23:15 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

Because they knew the truth but did not teach it to the others.

On the other hand, you can sail out into that ocean of "God's way doesn't work I'm going to do something new and different by..."

Ecclesiastes 1:9 "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun"


Chow!

Ron

[All4one]

God has not given us the spirit of fear so I wonder where some of you got such a fear for a labyrinth. The Holy Ghost in me continues to lead me closer to Him all the time, and if I go to the labyrinth He will go with me and I can be blessed and a blessing while I am there. Why do you live in such fear?

[nahkoe]

God has not given us the spirit of fear so I wonder where some of you got such a fear for a labyrinth. The Holy Ghost in me continues to lead me closer to Him all the time, and if I go to the labyrinth He will go with me and I can be blessed and a blessing while I am there. Why do you live in such fear?

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=18510

Fear? Maybe. While I know God will go with me anywhere I go, I'm not going to intentionally go somewhere where there *may* be opposing forces. Please understand I've had some experiences that I won't be discussing here. *I* (please note the generous use of "I" in my posts...) will be erring on the side of caution for now thanks. *I* also am very aware that there are things *I* have to be cautious of that someone without my history wouldn't have to give a second thought to. Kind of like an alcoholic doesn't drink again..I avoid certain situations and settings where I know I might struggle.

And like I already said..y'all have fun with your labyrinth. I don't care what decision you've made about it. lol

[A_PoMo]

Ron, you're twisting my words and the facts and ignoring my points. That's why even if I had the time I wouldn't 'debate' with you. You don't play fair, like so many others on internet forums that seem to make up hermeneutics as they go. You know as I do that church like we have it today is NOT found in the OT or the NT. That was my point regarding church, well at least part of it. Much of what we do in church and the way it's formatted and even it's physical layout comes from Roman culture and other places of decidedly pagan origin. You fail to address my points and instead build straw men and knock them down. Btw: your 'proof texts' are out of context and rely on a translation rather than the text, the context, and the custom of the period.

nahkoe: I was not referring to you in any respect concerning the things you claim I was inferring in regards to you. I was talking about my brothers harvey and blume, not you. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear.

Again, and finally, our labyrinth is a wholly Christian event. It is centered on Christ, it points people to Christ and only Christ, we teach people to pray to Christ, we help people set their face toward Christ, we help people give their lives to Christ, we help people worship Christ, we help people forgive other people as Christ has forgiven them, we help people order their lives around Christ, we challenge people to use their God given talents and spiritual gifts to minister to other people as Christ did, we challenge people to be thankful for God's blessing in their life, we challenge people to center their relationships around Christ, we witness to people, we pray with/for people, we counsel people...and more.

The only difference between our event and what churches purport to do on Sundays is that our event doesn't include pews and pulpits and instead the environment is constructed of a maze-like structure and uses art and music to tell the Christian story in a way that has been effective in connecting the gospel with a segment of people that wouldn't be caught dead in a regular church. (At least that's what they told me, I suppose you could wrest a scripture to 'prove' they're wrong.)

If you're 'against' that then you and I read a different Bible.

Ron: I'm sorry that you're against Christmas and Christmas trees. It's a great holiday if you're willing to redeem it for Christ.

[All4one]

maybe my relationship with God is stronger than I thought. I just cant seem to fear walls and pictures/props and walking through in prayer.

[A_PoMo]

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=18510

Fear? Maybe. While I know God will go with me anywhere I go, I'm not going to intentionally go somewhere where there *may* be opposing forces. Please understand I've had some experiences that I won't be discussing here. *I* (please note the generous use of "I" in my posts...) will be erring on the side of caution for now thanks. *I* also am very aware that there are things *I* have to be cautious of that someone without my history wouldn't have to give a second thought to. Kind of like an alcoholic doesn't drink again..I avoid certain situations and settings where I know I might struggle.

And like I already said..y'all have fun with your labyrinth. I don't care what decision you've made about it. lol

nahkoe: I completely understand your reticence about labyrinths. And I completely respect your personal choice in the matter. If it has a negative affect on you then it's not something you should do. The same is true of me when it comes to attending churches of a particular flavor. It is just not wise/healthy for me to go there because of my past. To object to labyrinth or anything else on that basis is understandable and biblical.

My objections to the fear mongers had nothing to do with your position. My objections to the Chicken Little position had to do with its basis in fear, its willy nilly hermeneutical eisegesis, and the bald willingness of its proponents to label an act of God as demonic (which I view as blashemy).

[Cindy]

Oh please. lol. You missed what I said. SPIRITUAL PROGRESS. You can go to church and moronically get nothing out of it. The HEART alone is where we make spiritual progress. Or do you believe God sees your feet carry you to church and says, WHAMMO, you're spiritual now!?

You're so funny Brother Blume. WHAMMO!:ursofunny

[mfblume]

ok BRO, no i don't believe that physical acts make us spiritual. i NEVER said that. you put those words in my mouth,

Hold on right there! I said nothing physical gives spiritual progress, and you said all these certain things were physical to oppose me. Changing your argument now????? Read, bro. read more carefully.

[A_PoMo]

Hold on right there! I said nothing physical gives spiritual progress, and you said all these certain things were physical to oppose me. Changing your argument now????? Read, bro. read more carefully.

Dude, you've completely lost me. I have no idea what you're talking about. You must be alot smarter than me. Or maybe you didn't communicate clearly enough. Or maybe I do need to go to a remedial reading class. One of my labyrinth creative teachers works at an adult school, maybe she can save me from my apparent ignorance.

One thing is for sure, I've not changed my argument. I answered an honest question posed at the beginning of this thread and in response you guys have turned your Eye of Mordor on me and accused me of witchcraft. Again, in doing so you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Feel free to repent at your leisure.

Ya'll can keep on arguing about this. But it has become the stuff of II Tim 2:23 and I'm done with it. I've defended myself against your unfounded charges of satanism and syncretism enough and you guys refuse to believe that what I'm doing is of the Lord. That's your problem, not mine.

[mfblume]

Dude, you've completely lost me. I have no idea what you're talking about. You must be alot smarter than me. Or maybe you didn't communicate clearly enough. Or maybe I do need to go to a remedial reading class. One of my labyrinth creative teachers works at an adult school, maybe she can save me from my apparent ignorance.

Apomo, look what transpired...

]Once again, spiritual progress cannot occur through physical effort. That is occultic.
Going to church is physical effort.

exactly.

singing requires effort, clapping your hands and raising your arms requires effort, running the aisles and jumping over pews requires effort, study of the bible requires effort, baptizing someone requires effort, preaching requires effort, teaching a sunday school class requires effort. most churches these days use art on a screen of some sort and nobody is claiming it's syncrestic.
i suppose all the effort that went into the two temples was useless too.

Why else would you respond with Timmy in saying this in response to my initial note?

You are not reading carefully. Or else don't endorse a rebuttal to something i said if you do not claim such a rebuttal is fitting.

And your tripe and rant about us accusing you of satanism is enough to show you are not even following our words. Read next time, or else do not comment.

[mfblume]

You're so funny Brother Blume. WHAMMO!:ursofunny

:D

[mfblume]

No, but I don't think anyone's claimed that a labyrinth will do that, either.

A labyrinth is a means to walk through something and physically enact what is spiritual. A journey. And the physical aspect of it is supposed to assist in spiritual progress. But the kicker is that it is used by false religions, when God said there is a prescribed way to do anything in our progress spiritually in His kingdom. And He distinctly said do not borrow from heathens and mix His name with those things.

[mfblume]

Ron: I'm sorry that you're against Christmas and Christmas trees. It's a great holiday if you're willing to redeem it for Christ.

I do not mind someone using Christmas to give gifts. But where did God say to redeem anything from other religions? That contradicts Ezekiel 20. The Catholics are famous for that sort of thing as they ADMIT their practices were "redeemed" from paganism.

[mfblume]

So are speaking in tongues, meditating, prayer, and singing.

Bad argument. The bible teaches tongues, meditating and prayer and singing. But where does it teach labyrinths that pagans use?

We cannot help a pagan counterfeiting what we God directs us to do, but we are not told to do the same with their rites.

[mfblume]

Much of what we do in church and the way it's formatted and even it's physical layout comes from Roman culture and other places of decidedly pagan origin. You fail to address my points and instead build straw men and knock them down. Btw: your 'proof texts' are out of context and rely on a translation rather than the text, the context, and the custom of the period.

Again, and finally, our labyrinth is a wholly Christian event. It is centered on Christ, it points people to Christ and only Christ, we teach people to pray to Christ, we help people set their face toward Christ, we help people give their lives to Christ, we help people worship Christ, we help people forgive other people as Christ has forgiven them, we help people order their lives around Christ, we challenge people to use their God given talents and spiritual gifts to minister to other people as Christ did, we challenge people to be thankful for God's blessing in their life, we challenge people to center their relationships around Christ, we witness to people, we pray with/for people, we counsel people...and more.



Labyrinths are taken from pagan religions and false religions to progress spiritually. God NEVER directed us to do that. He laid out in His word what to do.

Using pulpits is not something done to progress spiritually. Come on. lol

It does not matter if something is focused upon Christ. Do you not think the ark of the covenant put on an ox cart was focused towards God? But God still killed someone over it because it was not the due order He set forth. They worshiped God with it, and danced into the Lord! Thank God we're under grace today for such violators' sakes!

2 Samuel 6:3-5 KJV And they set the ark of God upon a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab that was in Gibeah: and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drave the new cart. (4) And they brought it out of the house of Abinadab which was at Gibeah, accompanying the ark of God: and Ahio went before the ark. (5) And David and all the house of Israel played before the LORD on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals.


It was all unto the Lord!

2 Samuel 6:7-9 KJV And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God. (8) And David was displeased, because the LORD had made a breach upon Uzzah: and he called the name of the place Perezuzzah to this day. (9) And David was afraid of the LORD that day, and said, How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?


David's explanation as to the death of Uzzah:

1 Chronicles 15:13 KJV For because ye did it not at the first, the LORD our God made a breach upon us, for that we sought him not after the due order.


It's not whether we do it unto the Lord or not that is the problem! Your intentions are great! But it is HOW you are doing something to God. God proved that it is important we do it the way God said to do it and not add top that.

[Timmy]

. . .
Using pulpits is not something done to progress spiritually. Come on. lol
. . .

So true! :ursofunny

[ronharvey]

Ron, you're twisting my words and the facts and ignoring my points. That's why even if I had the time I wouldn't 'debate' with you. You don't play fair, like so many others on internet forums that seem to make up hermeneutics as they go.


I don't?
You asked where it was in the Bible, I showed you and I don't play fair?


You know as I do that church like we have it today is NOT found in the OT or the NT.

Yeah, I am still looking for the electric guitar David played.


That was my point regarding church, well at least part of it. Much of what we do in church and the way it's formatted and even it's physical layout comes from Roman culture and other places of decidedly pagan origin.


Yeah, I still hate kissing my pastor's ring and the images' feet.


You fail to address my points and instead build straw men and knock them down. Btw: your 'proof texts' are out of context and rely on a translation rather than the text, the context, and the custom of the period.


I have not failed to address your points, you have failed to show that the principal is flawed.

Example:

1 Timothy 5:18 "For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward."

Deuteronomy 25:4 "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn."

The OT was referring to animals but Paul applies it to humans.
The principal is within the context of USE even though the SETTING is not.

"Well, if a man isn't tread'n corn he shouldn't be fed!" :club


nahkoe: I was not referring to you in any respect concerning the things you claim I was inferring in regards to you. I was talking about my brothers harvey and blume, not you. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear.

Again, and finally, our labyrinth is a wholly Christian event. It is centered on Christ, it points people to Christ and only Christ, we teach people to pray to Christ, we help people set their face toward Christ, we help people give their lives to Christ, we help people worship Christ, we help people forgive other people as Christ has forgiven them, we help people order their lives around Christ, we challenge people to use their God given talents and spiritual gifts to minister to other people as Christ did, we challenge people to be thankful for God's blessing in their life, we challenge people to center their relationships around Christ, we witness to people, we pray with/for people, we counsel people...and more.

The only difference between our event and what churches purport to do on Sundays is that our event doesn't include pews and pulpits and instead the environment is constructed of a maze-like structure and uses art and music to tell the Christian story in a way that has been effective in connecting the gospel with a segment of people that wouldn't be caught dead in a regular church. (At least that's what they told me, I suppose you could wrest a scripture to 'prove' they're wrong.)

If you're 'against' that then you and I read a different Bible.

Ron: I'm sorry that you're against Christmas and Christmas trees. It's a great holiday if you're willing to redeem it for Christ.

Jeremiah 10:2 "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them."

Jeremiah 10:3 "For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe."

Jeremiah 10:4 "They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

Jeremiah 10:5 "They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good"

Yeah, I guess your right, God said not to, but if you say "It is a gift"...

Matthew 15:2 "Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

Matthew 15:3 "But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Matthew 15:4 "For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death."

Matthew 15:5 "But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;"

Matthew 15:6 "And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition."

Matthew 15:7 "Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

Matthew 15:8 "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."

Matthew 15:9 "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

The Principal it there head it or leave it but don't claim to live it if you don't.

Ron

[A_PoMo]

Apomo, look what transpired...



Why else would you respond with Timmy in saying this in response to my initial note?

You are not reading carefully. Or else don't endorse a rebuttal to something i said if you do not claim such a rebuttal is fitting.

And your tripe and rant about us accusing you of satanism is enough to show you are not even following our words. Read next time, or else do not comment.

again, i fail to see your point. you have hopelessly confused me. it appears to me that you put words in my mouth and i was refuting what you said i said but which i didn't say. that's why this whole discussion is so useless. we must be speaking different languages.

perhaps YOU should go back and read the first 10-15 posts and you will see that my hproject was indeed lumped together with witchcraft/wicca and that sort of thing. that's all i was responding to from the start. but you've made it into some whole other argument about something that i never said or even implied. you inserted your pov by putting words in my mouth and then asked me to defend myself. geez. is it any wonder i don't want to respond to that sort of ridiculous 'converstation'?

your whole assertion that somehow we're adovcating physical activity to make spiritual progress is asinine. Nobody has said that but you. Interacting with the art that complements a spiritual reality is no different than interacting with communion elements that symbolize the blood and flesh of Christ, or the priests in the temple who went through all the elaborate rituals that had symbolic meaning. the physical acts themselves do nothing. I AGREE WITH YOU ON THAT! but i disagree with you that a labyrinth experience, as we're doing it, suggests anything other than what I've just said, as you seem to believe.

If you believe that we're saying that these physical acts save you or cause spiritual progress then you are flat wrong. The visual/tactile elements of the labyrinth only serve as tools to help visually/tactile oriented generations (web 2.0 people) understand the spiritual reality and it challenges them to make the spiritual leap of faith. It's object lessons 101, not some syncrestic gnostic whatever you're trying to make out to be. You're making way too much of this with all your fear mongering and looking for idols under every rock.

I keep saying i'm not going to respond and i mean it every time. but then you come back with even more ludicrous comments and i feel compelled to defend myself from your false accusations and your false witness. why don't you do us all a favor and stop making up stuff to argue about.

[A_PoMo]

Labyrinths are taken from pagan religions and false religions to progress spiritually. God NEVER directed us to do that. He laid out in His word what to do.

Using pulpits is not something done to progress spiritually. Come on. lol

It does not matter if something is focused upon Christ. Do you not think the ark of the covenant put on an ox cart was focused towards God? But God still killed someone over it because it was not the due order He set forth. They worshiped God with it, and danced into the Lord! Thank God we're under grace today for such violators' sakes!



It was all unto the Lord!



David's explanation as to the death of Uzzah:



It's not whether we do it unto the Lord or not that is the problem! Your intentions are great! But it is HOW you are doing something to God. God proved that it is important we do it the way God said to do it and not add top that.

You're right about all the above except for one thing. It has nothing to do with Labyrinth. You're comparing apples and oranges. These people disobeyed a direct commandment of God. I am doing no such thing. In fact, I argue that I am obeying a direct commandment of God in Matt 28:18. There is no commandment in scripture that orders the NT church to worship in a specific way as there was for the OT saints. There are particular elements that we're supposed to include (worship, prayer, proclamation...) but there is no strict liturgy like that detailed in the OT. You're out to lunch on this brother.

[A_PoMo]

I don't?
You asked where it was in the Bible, I showed you and I don't play fair?



Yeah, I am still looking for the electric guitar David played.



Yeah, I still hate kissing my pastor's ring and the images' feet.



I have not failed to address your points, you have failed to show that the principal is flawed.

Example:

1 Timothy 5:18 "For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward."

Deuteronomy 25:4 "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn."

The OT was referring to animals but Paul applies it to humans.
The principal is within the context of USE even though the SETTING is not.

"Well, if a man isn't tread'n corn he shouldn't be fed!" :club



Jeremiah 10:2 "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them."

Jeremiah 10:3 "For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe."

Jeremiah 10:4 "They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

Jeremiah 10:5 "They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good"

Yeah, I guess your right, God said not to, but if you say "It is a gift"...

Matthew 15:2 "Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

Matthew 15:3 "But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Matthew 15:4 "For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death."

Matthew 15:5 "But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;"

Matthew 15:6 "And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition."

Matthew 15:7 "Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

Matthew 15:8 "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."

Matthew 15:9 "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

The Principal it there head it or leave it but don't claim to live it if you don't.

Ron

In words of the worst economist that ever lived, Ronald Reagan, "There he goes again..."

The funny thing is that you don't even realize that above you're agreeing with me and making my point for me. :ursofunny

Ron, we are not idolators. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill. You are misinterpreting and misapplying scripture, that's why it's not fair. You play by what appears to be a dynamic hermeneutic, almost to the point of allegorizing. We are talking about COMPLETELY different things here. What we are doing with labyrinth is nothing more or less than what churches do every Easter and Christmas when they use drama to teach scriptural princples and biblical stories. Are you against Easter too?

Ok. I promise this is the last time I'm posting on this completely retarded thread. You can call me the anti-christ or anything you want. You can say that i'm offering human sacrifice (you may as well be saying that since you put in w/those people) or anything like that. you can wallow in your judgmentalism and make up all sorts of stories and invent facts and put words in people's mouths and knock down all the straw men you want. Have fun!

[ronharvey]

In words of the worst economist that ever lived, Ronald Reagan, "There he goes again..."


Thats why the demoncrats in Washington tucked their tails and ran and sucked their thumbs because what he said would happen; happened to their dismay. He was REELECTED based on the success of his 1st term. I switched to being a Republican then and voted for him in the second term. I got tired of having no money and living in a run down shack with the government telling me I had to fork out my money pay for the Fabians' choice.

Since Reagannomics I have consistently taken home a higher percent of my paycheck.


The funny thing is that you don't even realize that above you're agreeing with me and making my point for me. :ursofunny


Where, don't be vague


Ron, we are not idolators. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill. You are misinterpreting and misapplying scripture, that's why it's not fair.


I haven't yet misinterpreted or misapplied scripture, least wise any that you have pointed out. I had not even attempted to "interpret" a verse if I have which one? I have simply answered your questions asking "WHERE IS IT IN THE BIBLE???"

No response from you except a blanket statement how I am "misinterpreting and misapplying scripture."

At least the guys on the interracial thread took me to task verse for verse.

Your not even trying. Come on; tear me up! :evilglee


You play by what appears to be a dynamic hermeneutic, almost to the point of allegorizing.

Not even close.

al·le·go·rize Listen to the pronunciation of allegorize
Pronunciation:
\ˈa-lə-ˌgȯr-ˌīz, -gər-\
Function:
verb
Inflected Form(s):
al·le·go·rized; al·le·go·riz·ing
Date:
1579

intransitive verb 1 : to give allegorical explanations 2 : to compose or use allegory transitive verb 1 : to treat or explain as an allegory 2 : to make into allegory
— al·le·go·ri·za·tion Listen to the pronunciation of allegorization \ˌa-lə-ˌgȯr-ə-ˈzā-shən, -gər-\ noun
— al·le·go·riz·er noun

Nope, nope; not once.


We are talking about COMPLETELY different things here. What we are doing with labyrinth is nothing more or less than what churches do every Easter and Christmas when they use drama to teach scriptural principles and biblical stories. Are you against Easter too?

Yes, I am against the day of Ishtar, BUT Passover is only 5 days different, now that I enjoin.


Ok. I promise this is the last time I'm posting on this completely retarded thread.

Lies, Lies!!
Your just supposed to say Yea or Nay; anything else comes of evil!!!!
(How's THAT for drama? :crazy)


You can call me the anti-christ or anything you want. You can say that I'm offering human sacrifice (you may as well be saying that since you put in w/those people) or anything like that. you can wallow in your judgmentalism and make up all sorts of stories and invent facts and put words in people's mouths and knock down all the straw men you want. Have fun!

Wow, what a slick exit:aaa

You started this thread and now you call it "COMPLETELY RETARDED."

Oh well Se la vie!

Ron

[A_PoMo]

You started this thread...

Ron

I did? You might want to double check the veracity of that statement. I think you'll find it's about as correct as the rest of what you've said I've done and said. And that is precisely why this thread has become so retarded. :ursofunny:ursofunny

[mfblume]

You're right about all the above except for one thing. It has nothing to do with Labyrinth. You're comparing apples and oranges. These people disobeyed a direct commandment of God. I am doing no such thing.

Incorrect. These people were UNAWARE of a direct command to only do the order God chose and no other. That is different from disobedience. But God still struck. I claim the labyrinth issue is the same. How hard is it to understand, "Do not add to the word"? Do not take from other religions and incorporate their rites into the church. That is easy to follow.

God gave specific instructions for worship and everything involved in it. He even laid out minute details for the ark of Noah, the tabernacle of Moses and the temple of Solomon. He cares what we do. And in the midst of it all he said do not take from the heathen and adopt it into worship to Him.

In fact, I argue that I am obeying a direct commandment of God in Matt 28:18. There is no commandment in scripture that orders the NT church to worship in a specific way as there was for the OT saints. There are particular elements that we're supposed to include (worship, prayer, proclamation...) but there is no strict liturgy like that detailed in the OT. You're out to lunch on this brother.

I know you are sincere. So please reason with me here. The bible forbade taking from other religions and incorporating their rites into His Kingdom. This is aside from anything to do with liturgy. Non-liturgical environments do not allow for learning the way of the heathen.

[A_PoMo]

Incorrect. These people were UNAWARE of a direct command to only do the order God chose and no ther. But God still struck. How hard is it to understand, "Do not add to the word"?

God gave specific instructions for worship and everything involved in it. He even laid out minute details for the ark of Noah, the tabernacle of Moses and the temple of Solomon. He cares what we do. And in the midst of it all he said do not take form the heathen and adopt it into worship to Him.



I know you are sincere. So please reason with me here. The bible forbade taking from other religions and incorporating their rites into His Kingdom. This is aside from anything to do with liturgy.


Please don't look down you nose at me and talk about sincerity with elitist condescension. That's the trouble with you guys, you're so arrogant. That's what bothers me the most I think and why I'm getting really, really tired of forums.

I've said several times that I don't want to debate this. I can debate it, I just choose not to do so and you're illustrating one of the reasons why I think it's unfruitful to debate with you guys. I have said I would like to not debate the issue and instead of respecting my request you come on here after the fact and start accusing me of adding the word and that sort of thing. You done this several times now and it's just plain rude. It seems you want to try to make it appear as if don't have an argument and, to borrow Ron's pov, that means you 'win'. Why would anyone want to try to 'reason' with someone like that? I have found that you can't reason with the unreasonable, so I rarely bother trying to anymore. You want to talk and talk, but you don't listen.

I will not debate this. I will only repeat what I've been saying all along. Your error is in your hermeneutic and your lack of historical perspective. You need to do some less myopic research to understand that from the beginning Hebrews incorporated pieces of 'pagan' ritual into their worship and so do we! It's a fact of biblical and church history. So much of what was done in the OT was a pattern/shadow of what was to be fulfilled in the NT and that is why God was so specific at times. But we are not Jews and under the law and the object of the shadow has come. All of the Bible is written for me, but not all of the Bible is written to me. God is immutable in essence and purpose but not always in methodology. These point to just a few of errors in your hermeneutic, in my opinion. But I will not do your homework for you and I will not debate this point for point. That is a time consuming unfruitful endeavor, especially in this environment and with this company. You give your opinion (and that's all it is) and I give mine (for what it's worth). The tit-for-tat thing is useless because we don't agree on the hermeneutic that drives the interpretation.

You guys can go ahead and go to your Protestant worship services that incorporate quasi-Roman Catholic ritual and worship philosophy and ecclesiastical paradigms in their design and praxis and convince yourself that you're free from the taint of paganism. I'll go to the same sort of services and rejoice in the Lord in spite of 'pagan' influence as I know that it is not pagan now, but holy as unto the Lord. And, I'm sure to the shock and amazement of some, we'll ALL rejoice together in heaven together.

[mfblume]

Please don't look down you nose at me and talk about sincerity with elitist condescension. That's the trouble with you guys, you're so arrogant. That's what bothers me the most I think and why I'm getting really, really tired of forums.

I've never seen such an attitude so consistently proposed in a conversation in a long time.

As if I was being condescending. You do not know anything about the manner in which I worship. Bye.

Your attitude tells me all I need to know about your view. One disagrees with you and you treat them like trash. Whatever poisoned you to become so bitter is beyond me.

[ronharvey]

I did? You might want to double check the veracity of that statement. I think you'll find it's about as correct as the rest of what you've said I've done and said. And that is precisely why this thread has become so retarded. :ursofunny:ursofunny

You are correct, I duly apologize for stating you started this thread.

But the fact you overtook it so briskly left me thinking you did.

So, you included your self in what you call this "Completely Retarded" thread but say that the things I have said is what makes it so?

No, COMPLETELY refers to ALL; yours included.

Now, just for the record, I have not called it or anything you have said, avoided saying, or simply was unable to address as retarded in any way.

I have however (as have others) pointed out your playing with things derived from pagan worship (as you have so aptly agreed about).

So, if the things I have said are as you say 'retarded', it is you who caused them to be said as YOUR post was number two (I checked) and declared you are in fact observing pagan worship practices and have defended it even to this day.

Remember, COMPLETELY includes ALL, not just a PART of the whole.

Ron

BTW: You broke your PROMISE! :neener I knew you would :violin

[ronharvey]

Incorrect. These people were UNAWARE of a direct command to only do the order God chose and no other. That is different from disobedience. But God still struck. I claim the labyrinth issue is the same. How hard is it to understand, "Do not add to the word"? Do not take from other religions and incorporate their rites into the church. That is easy to follow.

God gave specific instructions for worship and everything involved in it. He even laid out minute details for the ark of Noah, the tabernacle of Moses and the temple of Solomon. He cares what we do. And in the midst of it all he said do not take from the heathen and adopt it into worship to Him.



I know you are sincere. So please reason with me here. The bible forbade taking from other religions and incorporating their rites into His Kingdom. This is aside from anything to do with liturgy. Non-liturgical environments do not allow for learning the way of the heathen.

Great Point Michael,

Also, it is noteworthy that it is very plain in scripture that God (as time passed) REMOVED items that were part of the worship including the LOCATION of worship and made it in spirit and truth.

These two things, aside from singing unto the Lord as praise, are the ONLY things required to Worship God and Jesus said "the Father seeketh such to worship him"
John 4:23 "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him"

Without distractions close the eyes and Worship him in spirit, opening the heart and not try to hide anything from God; worship him in truth.

Jeremiah 29:13 "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."

Ron

[mfblume]

Great Point Michael,

Also, it is noteworthy that it is very plain in scripture that God (as time passed) REMOVED items that were part of the worship including the LOCATION of worship and made it in spirit and truth.

These two things, aside from singing unto the Lord as praise, are the ONLY things required to Worship God and Jesus said "the Father seeketh such to worship him"
John 4:23 "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him"

Without distractions close the eyes and Worship him in spirit, opening the heart and not try to hide anything from God; worship him in truth.

Jeremiah 29:13 "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."

Ron

Amen. You raise a great point!

Looking to physical things was always a danger. God ordained Moses to make a brazen serpent that the Israelites bitten by vipers might be healed. In time, this object was found in the temple as though it had been worshiped. It was destroyed.

Finally, the New Covenant came in which everything became spirit and truth. No more holy places, no more holy buildings, and Hebrews 9 contrasted the new covenant as not even having an earthly sanctuary! But flesh still pulls people to physically do something as though to somehow assist the spiritual progress we need to make, when physical activity should only be an outcropping of something already progressing in the Spirit.

[All4one]

God will be found by those who seek Him! Good point! I f you ask for a fish will he give you a serpent? And it could be any where - right? home, car, at work, any church, labrynth, down town, in the woods, ect...........

[ronharvey]

God will be found by those who seek Him! Good point! I f you ask for a fish will he give you a serpent? And it could be any where - right? home, car, at work, any church, labrynth, down town, in the woods, ect...........

Bordello, red light district, bar, honky tonk....

This is where your reasoning is leading.

While in Texas, some churches were preparing to have strippers for Jesus, contending it was glorifying God with the beauty of the human form.

I suppose you would be there getting a spiritual boost?

Another fellow told my pastor if they would have Sunday dances he would play the fiddle and it would pack out the house!

I suppose you would have gone along with that also?

I know you would not have but I have seen where these things have lead.

Ron

[All4one]

Ronharvey your reasoning is much too extreme for me. When I think of people seeking after God strippers and red light disticts never crossed my mind.

[All4one]

Ronharvey, you should not ever go to a labrynth because you would be too closed minded to seek God there, you would be seeking a fight!

[ronharvey]

Ronharvey your reasoning is much too extreme for me. When I think of people seeking after God strippers and red light disticts never crossed my mind.

Which is why I added "I know you would not have but I have seen where these things have lead."

It never crossed my mind you would either.

Ron

[ronharvey]

Ronharvey, you should not ever go to a labrynth because you would be too closed minded to seek God there, you would be seeking a fight!

I seek God from his word, it is through the WORD I come to know him.

1 John 2:3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments"

1 John 2:4 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

Philippians 3:10 "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;"

Philippians 3:11 "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead."

Through the Word, not a form he did not command.

Ron

[All4one]

Ron, are you against plays or videos in church also?

[ronharvey]

Ron, are you against plays or videos in church also?

Wow, like I don't know where this is going.

When asked if he was against Communism, W.C. Fields said "I don't get that close to it." :dance

No, I am not against them; I just don't use them in the context of this thread.

Ron

[nahkoe]

You guys can go ahead and go to your Protestant worship services that incorporate quasi-Roman Catholic ritual and worship philosophy and ecclesiastical paradigms in their design and praxis and convince yourself that you're free from the taint of paganism. I'll go to the same sort of services and rejoice in the Lord in spite of 'pagan' influence as I know that it is not pagan now, but holy as unto the Lord. And, I'm sure to the shock and amazement of some, we'll ALL rejoice together in heaven together.

APoMo...I *don't* for these reasons.

I don't know what is going to happen regarding the paganism that is so prominent within the Christian church. I do believe God is merciful and faithful and more than able to judge righteously. But I can't knowingly engage in pagan practices within the church. Yeah, I'm an odd duck..I know. At least I'm a consistent odd duck.

[ronharvey]

Ronharvey, you should not ever go to a labrynth because you would be too closed minded to seek God there, you would be seeking a fight!

I would not ever go to one, not because I am closed minded but I am not into pagan forms of worship. Worshiping God through images etc...

Ron

[A_PoMo]

I've never seen such an attitude so consistently proposed in a conversation in a long time.

As if I was being condescending. You do not know anything about the manner in which I worship. Bye.

Your attitude tells me all I need to know about your view. One disagrees with you and you treat them like trash. Whatever poisoned you to become so bitter is beyond me.

Dude, you crack me up. You just have to zing me one more time by implying that I'm just a bitter old crank because I won't discuss this with you and because I call you on your condescending elitist attitude. Puhleeeze! I didn't treat you like trash. I just defended myself against your false accusations refused to allow you to put words in my mouth as you seem so want to do.

I assume that you're Protestant of some flavor. If you do a little study on Protestant worship tradition you'll quickly find out that what I said in the previous post applies to almost all Prod worship to some degree. Even OP's!

I'm not bitter Mike, I just don't think it's profitable to try to debate scripture when we have such differences in hermeneutic application. It's like trying to carrying on a conversation when people speak different languages. It just don't have the time to do that. Nor the inclination. Why can't you just accept that and not demean me and yourself by calling me bitter and act like I have some terrible attitude and that yours is as pure as the driven snow? Come one, at least pretend to be objective. :snapout

[A_PoMo]

APoMo...I *don't* for these reasons.

I don't know what is going to happen regarding the paganism that is so prominent within the Christian church. I do believe God is merciful and faithful and more than able to judge righteously. But I can't knowingly engage in pagan practices within the church. Yeah, I'm an odd duck..I know. At least I'm a consistent odd duck.

Again, I wasn't referring to you. I was talking to my good friends Mike and Ron. But, again, what we are doing is not a pagan practice. It is an art installation with a biblical message. Nothing more, nothing less.

[mfblume]

Two wrongs do not make a right, and we must stop comparing ourselves with ourselves and compare ourselves with scripture.

[A_PoMo]

Two wrongs do not make a right, and we must stop comparing ourselves with ourselves and compare ourselves with scripture.

Now THERE'S something we can agree on. F'sho. Amen.

[All4one]

Hey A_PoMo, How is that laberynth going? Is is open now?

[Digging4Truth]

I had never seen this thread before... been gone for a good while... and I haven't read many of the posts.

Just let me say... WOW.

I am simply blown away that this is something that an entity that calls itself a church would put on their property.

It just goes to show that our God (meaning... He who we seek for wisdom, leading and guidance) is nothing more than our own minds, emotions and opinions.

:snapout

[A_PoMo]

Hey A_PoMo, How is that laberynth going? Is is open now?

We had a soft opening on Tue night and it went great. The church leadership, some of our team, and the staff went thru. About fifty people total. They were amazed at the depth of the theology and how effective the experience was in helping people focus on scriptural/spiritual themes. More than one person said it was 'overhwhelming'. One family went through it together and the parents thought it was so neat to be able to talk with their kids about things in the narrative and in the art and to take communion with their kids as a family. We had the invitation only crowd anoint each station with oil and pray over each station.

Our actual public opening is tomorrow night.

Let me know if/when you come by.

[A_PoMo]

I had never seen this thread before... been gone for a good while... and I haven't read many of the posts.

Just let me say... WOW.

I am simply blown away that this is something that an entity that calls itself a church would put on their property.

It just goes to show that our God (meaning... He who we seek for wisdom, leading and guidance) is nothing more than our own minds, emotions and opinions.

:snapout

Sigh, yet another person who doesn't read but then makes dire pronouncements. The last statement was especially uninformed.

[mfblume]

I think the answer lies in the concept of post Modernism in the church, Digging4Truth. They're far more liberal in such things than most Apostolics would agree with. But do not disagree, or else you'll be blasted.

[A_PoMo]

I think the answer lies in the concept of post Modernism in the church, Digging4Truth. They're far more liberal in such things than most Apostolics would agree with. But do not disagree, or else you'll be blasted.

HAHA! :ursofunny That's a two-edged sword there Mike. Bullets were flying in both directions if I remember correctly. You guys blasted me pretty hard too.

It's not the disagreement that made me bristle, it was the mischaracterization of my position and the false and ungrounded accusations that made me react to you. You're welcome to your opinion, just so long as we can figure out a way to disagree in a respecful manner and treat each others opinions fairly. So far we haven't been able to do that.

Not sure what you mean by your post-modern in the church comment though. Not sure what you mean by 'liberal' either. They could be objective observations or they could be subjective perjoratives wrapped in code words. Idk.

[ronharvey]

HAHA! :ursofunny That's a two-edged sword there Mike. Bullets were flying in both directions if I remember correctly. You guys blasted me pretty hard too.

It's not the disagreement that made me bristle, it was the mischaracterization of my position and the false and ungrounded accusations that made me react to you. You're welcome to your opinion, just so long as we can figure out a way to disagree in a respecful manner and treat each others opinions fairly. So far we haven't been able to do that.

Not sure what you mean by your post-modern in the church comment though. Not sure what you mean by 'liberal' either. They could be objective observations or they could be subjective perjoratives wrapped in code words. Idk.

Have you videoed it?

Put it on You-Tube and post the link.

I have an open mind, I just don't let my brains fall out.

Ron

[mfblume]

Apomo, giving our opinion that it is unbiblical to carry heathen practices into the church, and showing scripture to prove it, and emphasizing it is not getting personal against you.

[ronharvey]

Apomo, giving our opinion that it is unbiblical to carry heathen practices into the church, and showing scripture to prove it, and emphasizing it is not getting personal against you.

Remember, telling your wife you don't like her dress is offending to her because it is an extension of herself.

It was her mind, thoughts, etc that told her it was 'right' for her.

Asking for your approval is her way of saying; "Disagree with my choice and you'll be eating out of the dog's bowl for two weeks!"

Men, however won't cop to this. We are objective and beyond such emotional restrictions that would cloud our minds or opinions.

I know, I am going to burn in a devil's hell for lying but it is true, I swear it (Ops another no-no). No, really men are not prone to getting upset when we are disagreed with (Ouch, there are blisters forming on my feet!).

Really, there is no reason for men to act like women (Ouch, sorry dear; I didn't see you standing there). I didn't mean you, your not a real woman; Ouch, you broke my glasses! Stop.... Guys, I'll post later... Aughhhhh STOP!

Ouch... Ouch... no dear, I didn't mean you.... aughhhhh, not that!

Honey, unless your makin biscuits; put down the rolling pin!!!!!!!

:club:feedback:scorebad:itsover

[A_PoMo]

Apomo, giving our opinion that it is unbiblical to carry heathen practices into the church, and showing scripture to prove it, and emphasizing it is not getting personal against you.

Putting words in my mouth, mischaracterizing my position, and lumping me in with witchcraft does make it personal.

If all you did was what you say then there would be no problem here. But you guys did much more than that. Par for the course though.

BTW: Proof texting does not 'prove' anything. Especially when it's out of context. At that point it's merely pretext.

And BTW: What we are doing is not a heathen practice any more than what you do in church on Sundays is heathen. Syncrenism is wrong, you and I agree on that. But what we are doing is not syncrestic. If it is, then alot of we Christians of all flavors do in worship services is syncrenism. Nobody believes that though. Our event is a worship event, not a pagan ritual.

[A_PoMo]

Have you videoed it?

Put it on You-Tube and post the link.

I have an open mind, I just don't let my brains fall out.

Ron

Ron, again you illustrate my point.Thank you very much. If you had actually been reading my posts and you had actually researched the issue before you made a dogmatic stand against it you would know that we are indeed on YouTube already and that I have provided the link to you already. That you ask for it tells me that you have not done any sort of even perfunctory investigation into what I am doing. Yet you are so quick to label me and to condemn what we do. That sort of parochial pseudo-intellectualism goes on way to much around here.

[A_PoMo]

I tell you what fellas, let's bury the hatchet.

I apologize for offending you.

I forgive you for offending me.

You feel as if I am introducing syncrestic elements into sacred Christian worship. I disagree and don't have the time or the inclination to defend my position.

I feel you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit by attempting to attribute something that is of God to the devil. You disagree and offer 'proof' that I think is incredible.

So, if any of us has anything we need to clear up before God then let's leave that between that fella and God. Let's move on. There are better things to do with our time.

You can continue to worship as you feel called to worship, and I'll do the same and we'll let God sort it out on that Day.

I wish you guys nothing but providence and blessings.

[Digging4Truth]

Ron, again you illustrate my point.Thank you very much. If you had actually been reading my posts and you had actually researched the issue before you made a dogmatic stand about against you would know that we are indeed on YouTube already and that I have provided the link to you already. That you ask for it tells me that you have not done any sort of even perfunctory investigation into what I am doing. Yet you are so quick to label me and to condemn what we do. That sort of pseudo-intellectualism goes on way to much around here.

I don't know about Ron but I found this thread nearly 100 posts into the discussion and that is quite a lot of posts to peruse.

What is it that we would have read that would change the fact that labyrinths are being built and used by a Christian group?

[Digging4Truth]

I feel you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit by attempting to attribute something that is of God to the devil. You disagree and offer 'proof' that I think is incredible

You feel that these brethren have committed an unpardonable sin in their discussion of this subject?

[ronharvey]

Ron, again you illustrate my point.Thank you very much. If you had actually been reading my posts and you had actually researched the issue before you made a dogmatic stand against it you would know that we are indeed on YouTube already and that I have provided the link to you already. That you ask for it tells me that you have not done any sort of even perfunctory investigation into what I am doing. Yet you are so quick to label me and to condemn what we do. That sort of parochial pseudo-intellectualism goes on way to much around here.

Your welcome.

I did Google Christian Labyrinths, and did not find a YouTube reference.
I did Google just Labyrinths and still came up devoid of any reference that would exonerate the Labyrinths of anything but pagan trimmings (Like Christmas Trees)

The Link to YouTube: which message did you post it in?

I thought I read all the posts.

I just went through the posts again and I did not see the link to YOU-TUBE you said you posted.
I had already viewed your link to MySpace, but am missing the Link on this thread to YouTube.

Ron

And, thanks for asking about my wounds!

[mfblume]

Did unsaved people concoct this method in religious circles outside Christianity before churches started it? And, again, The Holy Ghost directs things that are laid out in scripture.

[mfblume]

Putting words in my mouth, mischaracterizing my position, and lumping me in with witchcraft does make it personal.

If all you did was what you say then there would be no problem here. But you guys did much more than that. Par for the course though.

BTW: Proof texting does not 'prove' anything. Especially when it's out of context. At that point it's merely pretext.

And BTW: What we are doing is not a heathen practice any more than what you do in church on Sundays is heathen. Syncrenism is wrong, you and I agree on that. But what we are doing is not syncrestic. If it is, then alot of we Christians of all flavors do in worship services is syncrenism. Nobody believes that though. Our event is a worship event, not a pagan ritual.

All that I said was taking practices from pagans into the church is wrong. The bible laid that out. And I was not taking any scripture out of context in doing so. Meanwhile you have been criticizing people's intellect and thinking.

I saw the website provided about labyrinths and noticed it was done in religions other than Christianity. Funny how the apostles never thought of labyrinths, and we're built on their foundation.

All your references to sunday elements are nothing to do with what I already delineated -- things done physically to enhance spiritual progress.

[Pastor Keith]

If you have ever been to a laberinth at a church, what was it like? Did you feel God in it? I have heard about these before but never at a UPC church.

You should read the new Prayer focus at UPCI HQ, praying through the Tabernacle. In a mock up of the OT tabernacle, praying people can walk through the various aspects of the Tabernacle and pray accordingly.

This is not much different that the laberyrinth where it is done in the same way.

[ronharvey]

You should read the new Prayer focus at UPCI HQ, praying through the Tabernacle. In a mock up of the OT tabernacle, praying people can walk through the various aspects of the Tabernacle and pray accordingly.

This is not much different that the laberyrinth where it is done in the same way.

Amazing,

Jesus tore it down and we want to erect it again.

All types and shadows that were done away in Christ the UPCI wants to resurrect them so we can get us another brazen serpent issue.

Will we ever learn?

Probably not.

Ron

[All4one]

So, Ron, Shall we not study the Old Testament since Jesus gave us a New Testament?

[ronharvey]

So, Ron, Shall we not study the Old Testament since Jesus gave us a New Testament?

So, All4one, it seems that wasn't what was said.

You should read the new Prayer focus at UPCI HQ, praying through the Tabernacle. In a mock up of the OT tabernacle, praying people can walk through the various aspects of the Tabernacle and pray accordingly.

This is not much different that the laberyrinth where it is done in the same way.

I have no qualms about STUDYING the OT, I have my disagreement when we resurrect it to pray at it. Christian Prayer does not need physical things to attach itself to.

Ron

[mfblume]

It is a hard transition to go from first that which is natural to then that which is spiritual. Flesh always wants something to relate to. God does take advantage of that at times.

[All4one]

So, All4one, it seems that wasn't what was said.



I have no qualms about STUDYING the OT, I have my disagreement when we resurrect it to pray at it. Christian Prayer does not need physical things to attach itself to.

Ron

I agree, and I dont pray at the OT. I may pray IN a labrynth, but not to it!

[ronharvey]

I agree, and I dont pray at the OT. I may pray IN a labrynth, but not to it!

I didn't say TO it, I said AT it.

There is a difference.

Ron

[A_PoMo]

All that I said was taking practices from pagans into the church is wrong. The bible laid that out. And I was not taking any scripture out of context in doing so. Meanwhile you have been criticizing people's intellect and thinking.

I saw the website provided about labyrinths and noticed it was done in religions other than Christianity. Funny how the apostles never thought of labyrinths, and we're built on their foundation.

All your references to sunday elements are nothing to do with what I already delineated -- things done physically to enhance spiritual progress.

I apologize and try to bury the hatchet and you stubbornly insist on continuing to mischaraterizing what I said and insisting that I'm positing something that I am not positing. Sigh, you're incorrigible.

[ronharvey]

I apologize and try to bury the hatchet and you stubbornly insist on continuing to mischaraterizing what I said and insisting that I'm positing something that I am not positing. Sigh, you're incorrigible.

That's what I have been telling him forever! He is just not reformable as well as incorrigible. :-)

Translation: That' s τι του έχω πει για πάντα! Δεν είναι ακριβώς αναμορφώσιμος καθώς επίσης και αδιόρθωτος.

Translation of Translation: That'? s what I have always said to him for! It is not precisely [anamorfosimos] as well as [adiorthotos]. well as incorrigible.

Now we know where the saying came from that "Something is lost in the translation!"

Ron
:shockamoo

[A_PoMo]

Well, we've run the Labyrinth for three weekends and so far we've had 700 people go through it. The response from people has been overwhelmingly positive. Many people have found healing and forgiveness, others have given their hearts to God, others have re-dedicated their hearts to God, and others say their Labyrinth experience caused them to think about things from an angle they've never considered before and they felt it was a growth experience for them. We've had people bring friends back two or three times, others brought entire youth groups and college groups and we've been in the paper twice so far.

Since our final weekend was our strongest in terms of attendance we decided to extend it another two weekends. If momentum is still strong we may continue it through the end of the year. We'll see.

[RandyWayne]

The only "maze" I am concerned with is the type you can run through in an attempt to best your "best time" (as well as not get lost).

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w113/RandyWayneD/TheMaze01Small.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w113/RandyWayneD/TheMaze08Small.jpg

[A_PoMo]

Ah...but that is one difference between a labyrinth and a maze. In a maze there are many turns and deadends and you can get lost...much like the way of the world. But in a labyrinth there is a single, winding path and you cannot get lost. If you keep moving forward you will reach your goal...much like the way of Christ.

:)

BTW: Whoever made that maze in your pix sure put ALOT of money and ALOT of time and effort into it.

[RandyWayne]

Ah...but that is one difference between a labyrinth and a maze. In a maze there are many turns and deadends and you can get lost...much like the way of the world. But in a labyrinth there is a single, winding path and you cannot get lost. If you keep moving forward you will reach your goal...much like the way of Christ.

:)

BTW: Whoever made that maze in your pix sure put ALOT of money and ALOT of time and effort into it.

The thing is huge. I've been through it several times already.