2 swats puts Dad in court

[MarcBee]

http://portagedailyregister.com/news/49a11bd6-a139-11dd-840c-001cc4c03286.html

The above perhaps only the latest in "child abuse" court cases to try (religious?) people exercising what they believe is their divinely ordered right.

How many here believe that corporal punishment is a God given right and you therefore are prepared to be a felon or lose children should you get reported?

Or, has the legal landscape and popular culture caused you to rethink your traditional discipline techniques, and you've found other effective ways?

Or, do you think the "state" has it correctly?

Or other...

SOS

[Pragmatist]

Why do so many people think that corporal punishment is required by God????????? It's not.

Someone should do an in-depth study on what the verses really mean. (I would, but I'm currently too busy with my 19 month old.)

[Rhoni]

By law you can swat a child on the buttocks or upper legs with an open hand. You cannot leave a mark and are never allowed to slap a child in the face.

[Ferd]

people blame God way too much.

Im not opposed to spanking but please God didnt tell anybody to spank.

[Pragmatist]

By law you can swat a child on the buttocks or upper legs with an open hand. You cannot leave a mark and are never allowed to slap a child in the face.

The law varies from state to state, though, doesn't it?

[DividedThigh]

spanking is a responsibility in the correction of children and must be administered with love and responsiblity, the dont swatters among us usually raise uncontrollably little ones, dt

[Pragmatist]

And I think if you leave bruises, it is abuse.

[Pragmatist]

spanking is a responsibility in the correction of children and must be administered with love and responsiblity, the dont swatters among us usually raise uncontrollably little ones, dt

I completely disagree. You can have authority over a child without hitting them. It may require more work, but it can be done.

[Cindy]

This case has nothing to do with religion, it is about a parent spanking a child with a paddle and leaving bruises.

[DividedThigh]

I completely disagree. You can have authority over a child without hitting them. It may require more work, but it can be done.

good luck, i have never seen it, and i am almost 50

[Cindy]

I completely disagree. You can have authority over a child without hitting them. It may require more work, but it can be done.

I agree, and I believe it causes fear and not respect if you hurt a child.

[Rhoni]

The law varies from state to state, though, doesn't it?


Yes it is state regulated and the one I was referring to is Florida.

I believe in spanking but rarely and only if the child puts him/her self in danger or puts another in danger. The punishment should be equal to the offense.

Abuse happens when the punishment far exceeds the offense. Those who have been harshly dealt with often continue the pattern of abuse through their own children.

Blessings,
Rhoni

[DividedThigh]

wow the libs are invading aff, yikes

[Timmy]

wow the libs are invading aff, yikes

You're just noticing? :toofunny

[DividedThigh]

no just expressin, lol

[MissBrattified]

"Barnett struck hard enough to cause purplish bruises about four inches in width, the complaint stated."

No one *needs* to or *has a responsibility to* spank their child hard enough to cause "purplish bruises four inches in width."

You do NOT have a biblical mandate to spank your children. You do have a mandate to raise them in the fear and admonition of the Lord, to provoke them NOT to anger, to raise them up in the way they should go, etc. I agree that the Bible allows spanking, but it is certainly NOT commanded, nor is it the only way to discipline a child. It is WAY overused in the church world, and in many cases it's a first resort, instead of a last, because parents want to spend less time actually training and teaching their children, and just do a little impulse control.

I certainly do not see any need to ever bruise a child. I have swatted my girls pretty good on the behind before, and I have NEVER left a mark. I can't imagine what kind of force would be necessary in order to leave a mark, and I think a parent would have to be angry in order to do so. JMO

[Cindy]

wow the libs are invading aff, yikes

Watch it buddy.......:club :tease

[MissBrattified]

Anyway, I don't think it was "two swats" that landed the Dad in court. I think it was the large "purplish bruises" that got him there.

[Rhoni]

"Barnett struck hard enough to cause purplish bruises about four inches in width, the complaint stated."

No one *needs* to or *has a responsibility to* spank their child hard enough to cause "purplish bruises four inches in width."

You do NOT have a biblical mandate to spank your children. You do have a mandate to raise them in the fear and admonition of the Lord, to provoke them NOT to anger, to raise them up in the way they should go, etc. I agree that the Bible allows spanking, but it is certainly NOT commanded, nor is it the only way to discipline a child. It is WAY overused in the church world, and in many cases it's a first resort, instead of a last, because parents want to spend less time actually training and teaching their children, and just do a little impulse control.

I certainly do not see any need to ever bruise a child. I have swatted my girls pretty good on the behind before, and I have NEVER left a mark. I can't imagine what kind of force would be necessary in order to leave a mark, and I think a parent would have to be angry in order to do so. JMO

We had a little girl, maybe 18 months old, in our daycare many years ago. The weekends that she spent with her father [her parents were divorced] she came back with purple & Blue upper legs and total buttocks. We didn't know what to do about it way back then...I feel so bad now because we should have called CPS to pick the child up.

[Jesuswins]

I believe spanking has it's place, and I have used it. But I also believe that there are a lot other alternatives available and spanking shouldn't always be your first choice. Spanking when your angry or mad is physical abuse.
I don't agree that children that aren't spanked are brats or spoiled. However I believe that children with parents that don't follow through with punishment after it's been threatened are the ones raising brats. I get so tired of hearing parents say, "if you don't quit, I'm going to _____" and when the child don't quit there is no consequence for the action only more threats which are never carried out. Before you make a threat, make sure it's something you are willing to carry out. Children need limits, then need consistancy, and they need to know that "no matter what" they are loved.

[MissBrattified]

spanking is a responsibility in the correction of children and must be administered with love and responsiblity, the dont swatters among us usually raise uncontrollably little ones, dt

Well, I'm a "rarely swat" parent, and I think spanking only works for a small window of a child's life anyway. Our children are VERY well-behaved, and I can count on one hand the number of times all 3 of them have been spanked in the last year, combined.

Spanking is not a responsibility. Discipline, guidance, training, teaching and unconditional love are the responsibilities of parenting, and spanking is not a necessary part of that equation.

[Cindy]

I believe spanking has it's place, and I have used it. But I also believe that there are a lot other alternatives available and spanking shouldn't always be your first choice. Spanking when your angry or mad is physical abuse.
I don't agree that children that aren't spanked are brats or spoiled. However I believe that children with parents that don't follow through with punishment after it's been threatened are the ones raising brats. I get so tired of hearing parents say, "if you don't quit, I'm going to _____" and when the child don't quit there is no consequence for the action only more threats which are never carried out. Before you make a threat, make sure it's something you are willing to carry out. Children need limits, then need consistancy, and they need to know that "no matter what" they are loved.

Amen!

[MissBrattified]

We had a little girl, maybe 18 months old, in our daycare many years ago. The weekends that she spent with her father [her parents were divorced] she came back with purple & Blue upper legs and total buttocks. We didn't know what to do about it way back then...I feel so bad now because we should have called CPS to pick the child up.

I've been in situations before when I was unsure whether I should act or not. I'm a lot more vocal and decisive than I used to be. ;)

[Rhoni]

I've been in situations before when I was unsure whether I should act or not. I'm a lot more vocal and decisive than I used to be. ;)

Miss B, Sure can relate to what you said. There was a time I would not speak up and I felt I had no voice. I found my voice and now I just need to temper it with more wisdom than I do at times. But I am in process:friend

Blessings, Rhoni

[tstew]

One thing that has been instilled in me is that it is impossible to truly discipline in an undisciplined way. My father believed that, lived that, and practiced that...(my mother, not so much). Either way, when I see parents hitting their children out of frustration, without being in control of their emotions, or as a impulsive reaction I cringe. In those cases it may be argued that you are teaching your children to hit for the wrong reasons. When I was growing up, corporal punishment was administered as if it were the result of a court martial, not in frustration, not undisciplined, not in the heat of the moment, and always after it was understood by me why it was necessary.

[Jesuswins]

We had a little girl, maybe 18 months old, in our daycare many years ago. The weekends that she spent with her father [her parents were divorced] she came back with purple & Blue upper legs and total buttocks. We didn't know what to do about it way back then...I feel so bad now because we should have called CPS to pick the child up.

In Tennessee it is required by law that we report it. That has been the law here for at least the last 25 yrs.

[Rhoni]

In Tennessee it is required by law that we report it. That has been the law here for at least the last 25 yrs.

I was in Indiana and it was almost that long ago - before I knew anything about anything important:friend

[MissBrattified]

One thing that has been instilled in me is that it is impossible to truly discipline in an undisciplined way. My father believed that, lived that, and practiced that...(my mother, not so much). Either way, when I see parents hitting their children out of frustration, without being in control of their emotions, or as a impulsive reaction I cringe. In those cases it may be argued that you are teaching your children to hit for the wrong reasons. When I was growing up, corporal punishment was administered as if it were the result of a court martial, not in frustration, not undisciplined, not in the heat of the moment, and always after it was understood by me why it was necessary.

This is really the only fair way to spank, IMO, but unfortunately for the two bleeding-heart parents in this house, by the time we've thought about it, we've come up with another way to administer "natural consequences"--because both of us hate to spank. LOL!!!

Although, when my girls ran away for a "Big Adventure" a couple of summers back, and we had to call the Sheriff to track their tick-covered, muddy, tired, LOST hineys down...my husband wasn't going to spank them for it, and I INSISTED on it!

[freeatlast]

Here's a sad case. I know of a 20 yr old upc raised young man who spanked his 2 yr old daughter. apparently to hard. The closed fist to the thigh broke her leg.

I visited this kid in county jail for over a year while he was going thru the legal system (Illinois) His mother goes to my church, he actually goes/went to a neighboring upc.

This was his first offense.

During the trial the wife did state that he had spanked the child once beofre to hard and left bruising.

Long and short of it in illinois causing harm to a chiild is a class X felony.

He was sentenced o 11 years in Prison and under Illinois law he will do 85% of that sentence or about 8 years.

He was acrive in his church and in fact had just come in from teaching a home bible study.


My thoughts are that the harsh sentence was over the top for a first time offense.

At his trial the court gallery was full of long hair and long dress's from his church and they played up that he was a good boy, a good Christian.
The "hey, I'm a Christian" did'nt set well the judge, who could have given him the minimum sentence of 6 years.

He's been in State prison 6 hours away from his family now for about two years.

[Rhoni]

Here's a sad case. I know of a 20 yr old upc raised young man who spanked his 2 yr old daughter. apparently to hard. The closed fist to the thigh broke her leg.

I visited this kid in county jail for over a year while he was going thru the legal system (Illinois) His mother goes to my church, he actually goes/went to a neighboring upc.

This was his first offense.

During the trial the wife did state that he had spanked the child once beofre to hard and left bruising.

Long and short of it in illinois causing harm to a chiild is a class X felony.

He was sentenced o 11 years in Prison and under Illinois law he will do 85% of that sentence or about 8 years.

He was acrive in his church and in fact had just come in from teaching a home bible study.


My thoughts are that the harsh sentence was over the top for a first time offense.

At his trial the court gallery was full of long hair and long dress's from his church and they played up that he was a good boy, a good Christian.
The "hey, I'm a Christian" did'nt set well the judge, who could have given him the minimum sentence of 6 years.

He's been in State prison 6 hours away from his family now for about two years.

Breaking the child's leg hitting with his fist...he deserves what he got and should blame no one but himself.

Blessings, Rhoni

[freeatlast]

Breaking the child's leg hitting with his fist...he deserves what he got and should blame no one but himself.

Blessings, Rhoni

Yes, he deseves punishment. But I think 11 years was to harsh.

This week a young man got out of prison after two years. hewas involved in dismembering and disposing of a classmates body.

Another young man just released after 4 years. his crime. He drug a state trooper to his death after the trooper tried to reach into his car and take the keys.

I just think the sentence was to harsh...but then again I sat in visitation with this kid over 50 times while he was locked up in County Jail.

[Rhoni]

Judges don't take too kindly to hiding behind the "religous" skirts [so to speak;)]. They make the penalty harsher because they feel Christians should practice what they preach! Can you blame them?

[tstew]

Here's a sad case. I know of a 20 yr old upc raised young man who spanked his 2 yr old daughter. apparently to hard. The closed fist to the thigh broke her leg.

I visited this kid in county jail for over a year while he was going thru the legal system (Illinois) His mother goes to my church, he actually goes/went to a neighboring upc.

This was his first offense.

During the trial the wife did state that he had spanked the child once beofre to hard and left bruising.

Long and short of it in illinois causing harm to a chiild is a class X felony.

He was sentenced o 11 years in Prison and under Illinois law he will do 85% of that sentence or about 8 years.

He was acrive in his church and in fact had just come in from teaching a home bible study.


My thoughts are that the harsh sentence was over the top for a first time offense.

At his trial the court gallery was full of long hair and long dress's from his church and they played up that he was a good boy, a good Christian.
The "hey, I'm a Christian" did'nt set well the judge, who could have given him the minimum sentence of 6 years.

He's been in State prison 6 hours away from his family now for about two years.

When you cross reference this story with the story that I just commented on on another thread, something does not add up. When you have people getting out in 7 years after being convicted of attempted murder and car-jacking......... I do believe that he absolutely deserves punishment and perhaps anger management, but it doesn't add up to me.

[Rhoni]

Yes, he deseves punishment. But I think 11 years was to harsh.

This week a young man got out of prison after two years. hewas involved in dismembering and disposing of a classmates body.

Another young man just released after 4 years. his crime. He drug a state trooper to his death after the trooper tried to reach into his car and take the keys.

I just think the sentence was to harsh...but then again I sat in visitation with this kid over 50 times while he was locked up in County Jail.

My ex-husband visited a child molester from our church almost daily for a year. He had more mercy in his heart than I did. Don't mess with the children...:evilglee The Bible says it would be better that a millstone be hanged around the person's neck and they be cast into the sea than to hurt one of these little ones. I stand with Jesus on this one:club

Blessings, Rhoni

[freeatlast]

Judges don't take too kindly to hiding behind the "religous" skirts [so to speak;)]. They make the penalty harsher because they feel Christians should practice what they preach! Can you blame them?

Not really.

My former pastor, pulled over for speeding one time on the way to a hospital call, explained to the officer, pleading "I'm a preacher"

The cop told him "then you should know better" , and wrote him a ticket :ursofunny

[Rhoni]

Not really.

My former pastor, pulled over for speeding one time on the way to a hospital call, explained to the officer, pleading "I'm a preacher"

The cop told him "then you should know better" , and wrote him a ticket :ursofunny

:friend

It isn't that I don't empathize because I am sure the young man showed lots of remorse. But do you know how much anger was wrapped up in that young man to hit his 2 year old daughter in the leg with his fist? He should have found another outlet for his anger toward the frustration of being a parent.

[Truthseeker]

To say the bible doesn't teach spanking is error. It does say use a rod which was a switch like thing that would be flexable causing pain but not injury. I use the belt, left welts a few times, ain't gonna kill em.

Proverbs 23:14 (Whole Chapter)
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell


Proverbs 23:13 (Whole Chapter)
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die



30The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.

[Rhoni]

To say the bible doesn't teach spanking is error. It does say use a rod which was a switch like thing that would be flexable causing pain but not injury. I use the belt, left welts a few times, ain't gonna kill em.

Proverbs 23:14 (Whole Chapter)
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell


Proverbs 23:13 (Whole Chapter)
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die



30The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.

What? I don't agree with the bolded statement and not sure where you got it from.

[Pragmatist]

To say the bible doesn't teach spanking is error. It does say use a rod which was a switch like thing that would be flexable causing pain but not injury. I use the belt, left welts a few times, ain't gonna kill em.

Proverbs 23:14 (Whole Chapter)
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell


Proverbs 23:13 (Whole Chapter)
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die



30The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.

Does beating your child with a rod deliver his soul from hell? If so, we have a new plan of salvation.

And beating him, doesn't cause eternal life, either.

You're going to have to come up with different scriptures to convince me, because I can't take the ones in Proverbs literally as I illustrated.

[Truthseeker]

Does beating your child with a rod deliver his soul from hell? If so, we have a new plan of salvation.

And beating him, doesn't cause eternal life, either.

You're going to have to come up with different scriptures to convince me, because I can't take the ones in Proverbs literally as I illustrated.

What do them scriptures mean? what does beat with a rod mean?

[Truthseeker]

What? I don't agree with the bolded statement and not sure where you got it from.

It came from proverbs.

[Timmy]

What? I don't agree with the bolded statement and not sure where you got it from.

I disagree with Prov 20:30, too!

[Truthseeker]

I disagree with Prov 20:30, too!


doesn't change what prov 20:30 says, does it?

[He's My Friend]

Here's a sad case. I know of a 20 yr old upc raised young man who spanked his 2 yr old daughter. apparently to hard. The closed fist to the thigh broke her leg.

I visited this kid in county jail for over a year while he was going thru the legal system (Illinois) His mother goes to my church, he actually goes/went to a neighboring upc.

This was his first offense.

During the trial the wife did state that he had spanked the child once beofre to hard and left bruising.

Long and short of it in illinois causing harm to a chiild is a class X felony.

He was sentenced o 11 years in Prison and under Illinois law he will do 85% of that sentence or about 8 years.

He was acrive in his church and in fact had just come in from teaching a home bible study.


My thoughts are that the harsh sentence was over the top for a first time offense.

At his trial the court gallery was full of long hair and long dress's from his church and they played up that he was a good boy, a good Christian.
The "hey, I'm a Christian" did'nt set well the judge, who could have given him the minimum sentence of 6 years.

He's been in State prison 6 hours away from his family now for about two years.


If this dad had been attacked by either a stranger or someone he was familiar with, he would have probably pressed charges.

He would have expected the court system to work "for" him.

In this case the courts worked for the child.

I applaud the judge for his decision.

[Timmy]

doesn't change what prov 20:30 says, does it?

Nope.

[Truthseeker]

Nope.

That it's!!!

No fighting:club:snapout:club:snapout

[Timmy]

That it's!!!

No fighting:club:snapout:club:snapout

Ooooo, that's gonna leave a mark! (Sorry! :lol)

[MissBrattified]

To say the bible doesn't teach spanking is error. It does say use a rod which was a switch like thing that would be flexable causing pain but not injury. I use the belt, left welts a few times, ain't gonna kill em.

Proverbs 23:14 (Whole Chapter)
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell


Proverbs 23:13 (Whole Chapter)
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die



30The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.

TS, there are several--okay, MANY--practices of punishment and discipline in the Old Testament that we do not participate in. We can take the gist of them as a guideline, but unless you plan on stoning the next fornicator you come across, then save it.

The guts of those verses is that withholding discipline or training will harm a child, and if you do discipline the child, it can save him from destruction. I obviously agree with that. But if you take verse 30 literally, then you are saying it's okay to leave bruises (wounds/blueness), and "stripes." I don't believe that is necessary, fruitful, effective, and it certainly isn't a good WITNESS in a day and age when such acts do not portray gentleness. (a fruit of the spirit)

Maybe I'm an idiot, but I can't see Jesus beating a child, and leaving stripes and bruises. We are living in an age of grace and mercy, and whatever discipline a CHRISTIAN parent offers should be firm, but also reflective of our theology. Children learn about their future relationship with God from their present relationship with their parents--especially their father.

[freeatlast]

TS, there are several--okay, MANY--practices of punishment and discipline in the Old Testament that we do not participate in. We can take the gist of them as a guideline, but unless you plan on stoning the next fornicator you come across, then save it.

The guts of those verses is that withholding discipline or training will harm a child, and if you do discipline the child, it can save him from destruction. I obviously agree with that. But if you take verse 30 literally, then you are saying it's okay to leave bruises (wounds/blueness), and "stripes." I don't believe that is necessary, fruitful, effective, and it certainly isn't a good WITNESS in a day and age when such acts do not portray gentleness. (a fruit of the spirit)

Maybe I'm an idiot, but I can't see Jesus beating a child, and leaving stripes and bruises. We are living in an age of grace and mercy, and whatever discipline a CHRISTIAN parent offers should be firm, but also reflective of our theology. Children learn about their future relationship with God from their present relationship with their parents--especially their father.

WOW! I know wisdom when I see it and you are full of it Miss B

Thanx for a great post.

[nahkoe]

Why do so many people think that corporal punishment is required by God????????? It's not.

Someone should do an in-depth study on what the verses really mean. (I would, but I'm currently too busy with my 19 month old.)

http://aolff.com/?page_id=9

Not as indepth as I know she's done, I was good friends with her while she was writing her book (http://www.amazon.com/Biblical-Parenting-Crystal-Lutton/dp/193058668X?&camp=212361&linkCode=wey&tag=httpaolfforg-20&creative=380737) although have drifted over time. I got to read a lot of the stuff before she published her book though, very good stuff IMO.

[jaxfam6]

By law you can swat a child on the buttocks or upper legs with an open hand. You cannot leave a mark and are never allowed to slap a child in the face.

I thought the law on this was governed by the state and could be different from state to state.

[jaxfam6]

WOW! I know wisdom when I see it and you are full of it Miss B
Thanx for a great post.

not sure what your full of but it is a lot of it.


:ursofunny

[joyful]

Here's a sad case. I know of a 20 yr old upc raised young man who spanked his 2 yr old daughter. apparently to hard. The closed fist to the thigh broke her leg.

I visited this kid in county jail for over a year while he was going thru the legal system (Illinois) His mother goes to my church, he actually goes/went to a neighboring upc.

This was his first offense.

During the trial the wife did state that he had spanked the child once beofre to hard and left bruising.

Long and short of it in illinois causing harm to a chiild is a class X felony.

He was sentenced o 11 years in Prison and under Illinois law he will do 85% of that sentence or about 8 years.

He was acrive in his church and in fact had just come in from teaching a home bible study.


My thoughts are that the harsh sentence was over the top for a first time offense.

At his trial the court gallery was full of long hair and long dress's from his church and they played up that he was a good boy, a good Christian.
The "hey, I'm a Christian" did'nt set well the judge, who could have given him the minimum sentence of 6 years.

He's been in State prison 6 hours away from his family now for about two years.

Personally, I wouldn't call hitting with a closed fist spanking. That is punching.

That is a sad situation, but the saddest part is that a 2 year old baby had her leg broken (most likely her femur which is one of the thickest and strongest bones in the body) by the person who was supposed to protect her and keep her safe.

[shag]

TS, there are several--okay, MANY--practices of punishment and discipline in the Old Testament that we do not participate in. We can take the gist of them as a guideline, but unless you plan on stoning the next fornicator you come across, then save it.

The guts of those verses is that withholding discipline or training will harm a child, and if you do discipline the child, it can save him from destruction. I obviously agree with that. But if you take verse 30 literally, then you are saying it's okay to leave bruises (wounds/blueness), and "stripes." I don't believe that is necessary, fruitful, effective, and it certainly isn't a good WITNESS in a day and age when such acts do not portray gentleness. (a fruit of the spirit)

Maybe I'm an idiot, but I can't see Jesus beating a child, and leaving stripes and bruises. We are living in an age of grace and mercy, and whatever discipline a CHRISTIAN parent offers should be firm, but also reflective of our theology. Children learn about their future relationship with God from their present relationship with their parents--especially their father.

A+ advice Miss B. I hope to always remember that.

[Truthseeker]

TS, there are several--okay, MANY--practices of punishment and discipline in the Old Testament that we do not participate in. We can take the gist of them as a guideline, but unless you plan on stoning the next fornicator you come across, then save it.

The guts of those verses is that withholding discipline or training will harm a child, and if you do discipline the child, it can save him from destruction. I obviously agree with that. But if you take verse 30 literally, then you are saying it's okay to leave bruises (wounds/blueness), and "stripes." I don't believe that is necessary, fruitful, effective, and it certainly isn't a good WITNESS in a day and age when such acts do not portray gentleness. (a fruit of the spirit)

Maybe I'm an idiot, but I can't see Jesus beating a child, and leaving stripes and bruises. We are living in an age of grace and mercy, and whatever discipline a CHRISTIAN parent offers should be firm, but also reflective of our theology. Children learn about their future relationship with God from their present relationship with their parents--especially their father.

It's clear scripturally the bible supports spanking or beating a child. The word beat has a more strong meaning today, but it's bible to discipline a child with stripes to the back. Of course, we don't want to injure the child. It must be dowe right and not out of anger.

BTW getting chastized is not suppose to be gentle.

[Pragmatist]

It's clear scripturally the bible supports spanking or beating a child. The word beat has a more strong meaning today, but it's bible to discipline a child with stripes to the back. Of course, we don't want to injure the child. It must be dowe right and not out of anger.

BTW getting chastized is not suppose to be gentle.

It's not clear to me, scripturally. Read the link in post #50. (Thanks, Nahkoe!)

[ILG]

I was taught you were supposed to spank your kid and that Dr. Spock didn't know what he was talking about. I am not opposed to spanking but I sure wish those sermons would have been tempered with teaching good parenting skills. I do have some regrets.

[Truthseeker]

http://www.christian-parents.net/Children/C101_Police_Officer.htm

[Truthseeker]

I was taught you were supposed to spank your kid and that Dr. Spock didn't know what he was talking about. I am not opposed to spanking but I sure wish those sermons would have been tempered with teaching good parenting skills. I do have some regrets.

I think you make a very important point. Not much teaching on parenting in church.

[MissBrattified]

I think you make a very important point. Not much teaching on parenting in church.

If there were more teaching from the church in regard to good parenting, and not just quick comments from the pulpit of "beat him with a rod--he won't die", I'd be less prone to object to this great support of spanking--even as a "command." (Which I don't believe it is.)

The problem is, I know too many ignorant church people who are abusive, and use scripture to back it up. I'm not picking on church people, but reasonably, the world AND our children expect more of us if we profess to serve Christ. It's enough to make me wish the church would teach against spanking altogether--because usually, it's not "spanking." It's plain old beating.

My husband grew up in a preacher's home and he and his siblings and his mother were severely abused by his father. All in the name of God. I've seen what that kind of twisted combination has done to that family. When you abuse your kids and blame it on a commandment from God, it's a whole new level of mind-bending. Kids don't emerge from that unscathed, and it definitely isn't beneficial in any way. I don't use the word abuse, lightly, either. I'm not referring to butt bruises, even though I would object to that in general.

Maybe if more churches would teach parents how to be Christian parents, it wouldn't be such a big deal. Whatever happened to applying these scriptures?

"Whatsoever you do, do it heartily, as unto the Lord." and, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."


That makes me take how I treat my children VERY seriously.

[freeatlast]

It's clear scripturally the bible supports spanking or beating a child. The word beat has a more strong meaning today, but it's bible to discipline a child with stripes to the back. Of course, we don't want to injure the child. It must be dowe right and not out of anger.

BTW getting chastized is not suppose to be gentle.

Do you even have a clue as to what stripes were in the bible.

How deeply into the flesh to you recomend the flesh be ripped open?

[Truthseeker]

Do you even have a clue as to what stripes were in the bible.

How deeply into the flesh to you recomend the flesh be ripped open?

I'm refering to strikes/swats not stripes in open wounds.

[ILG]

I think you make a very important point. Not much teaching on parenting in church.

My upbringing consisted of a lot of yelling and tension. I am angry when I think about how I got into the church and gave my life to God, believing these godly people would lead me to do the right things. Instead, they twisted up my head so bad, I couldn't think straight. I was taught you had to be there every time the doors were open and also go to the weekend rallies because we were in the ministry. Being in the ministry, more was expected. We were at EVERYTHING! We were chastised if we were not at everything! I look at pictures of my kids with dark circles under thier eyes. No wonder they were misbehaving! They were sleep deprived! And what did they get because *I* deprived them of sleep because the *church* and *pastor* told me this was the right way to God? A spanking!! Grrrr!!!! And then we were criticized because our children were crying in the nursery!! This infuriates me. And the pastor preached that you were supposed to spank them! One time, the pastor told me in front of the whole congregation to take my child out of the service and spank her. I took her out but I sat in the nursery in defiance and refused to do so. In my mind, I wondered if I was wrong for doing so. It was one of the few times I defied my pastor. Some people will just blame me for being so slow, but in all honesty, neither my husband nor I had a clue what we were doing wrong. If I had it to do over, I would say forget your stupid church rules, I'm out of here! Of course, that is what we finally did after 19 years.

If you are going to take the Bible literally, you have to believe that the blueness of a wound does chase away evil in kids. Thank God I never read that verse until years later because I was taught to take the Bible very literally. There was a woman in my church who believed that you had to bruise your kids or they were not spanked. That is so messed up. I never believed that, but I spanked my kids way too much because I did not know how to discipline in love. I didn't even know it was an issue until years later. My mind was so filled with trying to figure out UPC culture, I always felt if I got myself straight, I would get my kids there.

[ILG]

If there were more teaching from the church in regard to good parenting, and not just quick comments from the pulpit of "beat him with a rod--he won't die", I'd be less prone to object to this great support of spanking--even as a "command." (Which I don't believe it is.)

The problem is, I know too many ignorant church people who are abusive, and use scripture to back it up. I'm not picking on church people, but reasonably, the world AND our children expect more of us if we profess to serve Christ. It's enough to make me wish the church would teach against spanking altogether--because usually, it's not "spanking." It's plain old beating.

My husband grew up in a preacher's home and he and his siblings and his mother were severely abused by his father. All in the name of God. I've seen what that kind of twisted combination has done to that family. When you abuse your kids and blame it on a commandment from God, it's a whole new level of mind-bending. Kids don't emerge from that unscathed, and it definitely isn't beneficial in any way. I don't use the word abuse, lightly, either. I'm not referring to butt bruises, even though I would object to that in general.

Maybe if more churches would teach parents how to be Christian parents, it wouldn't be such a big deal. Whatever happened to applying these scriptures?

"Whatsoever you do, do it heartily, as unto the Lord." and, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."


That makes me take how I treat my children VERY seriously.

This is all so true. And yet, when a person tries to walk away from things they are taught.....you are put back to square one....do not touch God's anointed.....who are you to question the man of God.......if you leave this church you are not right with God.....ultimately child abuse happens in the name of God.

[Pragmatist]

I look at pictures of my kids with dark circles under thier eyes. No wonder they were misbehaving! They were sleep deprived!

Another thing that really bothers me. We keep kids up past their bedtime because we have to be in church and then punish them when they misbehave. It's setting your kids up for failure.

[ILG]

Another thing that really bothers me. We keep kids up past their bedtime because we have to be in church and then punish them when they misbehave. It's setting your kids up for failure.

Yes, absolutely true. I am incensed when I think that me, at the age of 20 years old and my husband 19 when we had our first baby, fresh out of the world, were taught that this was the way to raise kids. Deprive them of sleep and then smack them when they misbehave. It is definately setting them up for failure. And then let's criticize the parents when their kids don't behave on top of it. And then, let's criticize the parents if they decide the pastor is wrong and tell them they are going to go to hell for touching God's anointed. :crazy:ranting

[MarcBee]

....Either way, when I see parents hitting their children out of frustration, without being in control of their emotions, or as a impulsive reaction I cringe. In those cases it may be argued that you are teaching your children to hit for the wrong reasons. When I was growing up, corporal punishment was administered as if it were the result of a court martial, not in frustration, not undisciplined, not in the heat of the moment, and always after it was understood by me why it was necessary.


That is what my attitude about spanking, which seemed more common 30 or more years ago, even to the point of cliche'-- "Son, this is going to hurt ME more than it hurts YOU." (spank, spank...) I vaguely remember an episode of a mid 60s "Dennis the Menace" episode where after hearing the above platitude from his father, Dennis manages to secretly shove some paper plates down his britches to ensure an easier outcome. (Or maybe that was on "My Three Sons" ?)

My intent in this thread was _not_ "How should Christians discipline children?" But was my fault in poorly framing question, especially since I paired the question with a current news story where Pastor dad was obviously wrong.

Thanks, responses have been a good sonar ping to help support my (inconsequential) theories about how the church (church loosely defined) is constantly reinterpreting Biblical truth (first) in the light of its own cultural landscape, in this case, "modern American thought." Starting maybe 40 years ago and further back, many Christians would have boldly and gladly classified themselves into my first suggested category, "Corporal punishment is a God given right and I am (or should be) therefore prepared to be a felon if reported." But today, not so much. A bruise on the fanny was not such a crime 50 or 100 or 150 years ago. Does the present legal landscape make us hedge our bets? Does God sometimes enlighten secular society first, knowing it will filter over to the church? Who is influencing whom, the world the church, or the church the world, overall? Many good and forward influences by the church through history and upon history come to mind, ie, Christian thought (Protestants) activism brought the abolition of slavery in Europe and eventually USA. Was this God at work using His Biblically thinking people, who persuaded their world for good? If you are a strict, historical-thread Act 2:38 believer, you have to lump all these mainstream Christian activists into HELL, correct?

Are there any comparable social issues today where the church is changing the world more than culture or popular thought is obviously changing (your) church? "What have ya done for us lately?" (the world could say.) Apostolics have more Truth, but is that converting toward a better society, at least compared with some of the grand fights others have fought who didn't have so much truth? Or is it all about souls and *having* the truth? Perhaps Revival awaits a healthy amount of activism such as Catholics demonstrate concerning abortion. (?)

I digress, back to child spanking. The march toward anti spank laws (spanking of ANY kind, especially premeditated, read below) seems inevitable. Obviously those who already believe there are "better ways" than spanking will have nothing to fear. What about the rest of you? Ready to go to jail for your beliefs? Two excerpts below are bills introduced in CA and Canada--2008. Not sure either has completely passed, or will, this go 'round.

Toronto, June 2008
<<The bill, supported by the Liberal majority, quietly passed third reading in the Senate on Tuesday night despite Conservative objections to the legislation....
Bill S-209, which needs House approval to be made into law, proposes to eliminate Section 43 of Canada's Criminal Code, which allows parents, teachers and caregivers to use reasonable force to discipline a child and correct their behavior. Routine discipline and using spanking as premeditated punishment wouldn't be allowed. "No corporal punishment would be allowed, either by an educator, the mother, the father or someone acting for them," Hervieux-Payette said.>>

Sacramento, California, 2008,

The California Family Council reports:
<<Assembly Bill 2943 (Lieber) was approved today by the Assembly Committee on Public Safety. If approved by the Legislature and signed by the governor, the bill would make the ordinary practice of spanking a child by a parent a criminal act. This legislation, veiled as a prohibition of corporal punishment and child abuse, makes no distinction between an acceptable form of parental discipline – a spanking – and the violent act of “brandishing a deadly weapon upon a child.”>>

SOS

[HappyTown]

Well I'm older, I can tell you this much, when I'm in a store shopping and I hear kids being brats, I want slap the parents!!!!!