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Rhoni
10-28-2008, 06:23 AM
Let's reason together as brothers and sisters in Christ. Can we? Shall we?

Galatians isn't the only book where we are told as Christians/Christ followers to not take back the yoke of the law with its regulations and rules because it makes the grace of God to no effect. This is also contained in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and today I read in Colossians Chapter 2:13: When you who were dead in your sins and in the circumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having cancelled the written code, with its regulatians, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; He took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authoritities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabboth day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported, and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules; Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body, butt they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

I would like to discuss this issue without name calling, judgments about my character or anyone else's. Let's look together at the word of God. It is too easy when one has no answer to throw stones and someone you consider lesser than yourself. We are all levelled at the foot of the cross.

In God's grip,
Rhoni

freeatlast
10-28-2008, 07:29 AM
Rhoni, i recall "hearing or ereading" one time that ABI at one time did not teach or cover the book of Romans in their curiculum.

The reason being, they just didn't know how to explain away Pauls message there about grace in light of the legalism that they taught.

Anyone ever hear of this before ? I don't recall where i heard it.

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 07:46 AM
Rhoni, i recall "hearing or ereading" one time that ABI at one time did not teach or cover the book of Romans in their curiculum.

The reason being, they just didn't know how to explain away Pauls message there about grace in light of the legalism that they taught.

Anyone ever hear of this before ? I don't recall where i heard it.

Freeatlast,

I never heard that. I do know that for many years ABI was the only school where you could get good Bible Doctrine teaching.

Blessings, Rhoni

Sam
10-28-2008, 08:04 AM
Freeatlast,

I never heard that. I do know that for many years ABI was the only school where you could get good Bible Doctrine teaching.

Blessings, Rhoni

When I was at ABI (over half a century ago) we considered ourselves to be the best for doctrinal teaching. We considered PBI at Tupelo to be "loose" on doctrine because they were one-steppers. And we considered AC in Tulsa to be radical because they were against Coca Cola and wedding rings.

Fiyahstarter
10-28-2008, 08:11 AM
Is "Freedom from Legalism" the same thing as GRACE?

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 08:25 AM
Is "Freedom from Legalism" the same thing as GRACE?

It doesn't define it, but it means we are set free from legalism because of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

What the law, rules and regulations could not do - Christ did. He freed us from the law. We are saved by His grace because none of us are worthy and if we try to prove our worth by submitting to all these manmade traditions we are nullifying the grace of God. Jesus Christ is enough.

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 08:40 AM
When I was at ABI (over half a century ago) we considered ourselves to be the best for doctrinal teaching. We considered PBI at Tupelo to be "loose" on doctrine because they were one-steppers. And we considered AC in Tulsa to be radical because they were against Coca Cola and wedding rings.

Sam,
What did ABI teach about the grace of God?
Blessings, Rhoni

Fiyahstarter
10-28-2008, 08:44 AM
I always thought of "Grace" as being that continued unwarranted forgiveness of my imperfections...

And "freedom from legalism" comes with the realization of "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth."

Kinda the same?

mfblume
10-28-2008, 08:45 AM
I love grace. It is God who made us righteous and not any act of our's.

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 08:47 AM
I love grace. It is God who made us righteous and not any act of our's. AMEN! :friend

Pressing-On
10-28-2008, 08:51 AM
Rhoni,
This is a hard and deep subject in some ways.

One aspect would be: Being in leadership and having to work with people, I find that so many people don't even want to think for themselves. They expect you to tell them what to do. It's as though they "expect" you do drive them along like cattle. Sometimes that can be very exasperating.

I think this brings in a little more legalism than is necessary, but then you sit back and say, "How else can I handle this and make it work?"

It seems in every setting you have your followers and your leaders. I read that no matter how large the congregation you will always, only, have 25% doing the work and doing the giving.

Anyway, I really believe that is where the root of "legalism" starts. Trying to get people to have some gumption and drive. We can say, "Just preach the Word and let the Spirit guide, direct and convict."

That's a good place to start, but you still have your followers. What do you do with those people?

I'm not promoting "legalism" in any way, but I think it's tied up with the non-producers in some ways.

I hope you understand what I am trying to convey.

DividedThigh
10-28-2008, 08:52 AM
grace everytime, legalism is too heavy a burden to carry, dt

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 08:52 AM
I always thought of "Grace" as being that continued unwarranted forgiveness of my imperfections...

And "freedom from legalism" comes with the realization of "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth."

Kinda the same?

I agree with that definition: I use the terms - the unconditional positive regard that Christ show toward us. We are his children when we believe that He is who he says he is. When we accept His forgiveness, identify with him in burial through baptism in his name and walk in the righteousness that he gives us we will forgive ourselves and others as he has forgiven us.

God knows our weakness even if we can hide them from people. His grace and mercy covers all our faults and sins from now until eternity. If we try to make ourselves holy by living up to man's laws, rules, and regulations we deny the work of the cross in our lives.

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 08:57 AM
Rhoni,
This is a hard and deep subject in some ways.

One aspect would be: Being in leadership and having to work with people, I find that so many people don't even want to think for themselves. They expect you to tell them what to do. It's as though they "expect" you do drive them along like cattle. Sometimes that can be very exasperating.

I think this brings in a little more legalism than is necessary, but then you sit back and say, "How else can I handle this and make it work?"

It seems in every setting you have your followers and your leaders. I read that no matter how large the congregation you will always, only, have 25% doing the work and doing the giving.

Anyway, I really believe that is where the root of "legalism" starts. Trying to get people to have some gumption and drive. We can say, "Just preach the Word and let the Spirit guide, direct and convict."

That's a good place to start, but you still have your followers. What do you do with those people?

I'm not promoting "legalism" in any way, but I think it's tied up with the non-producers in some ways.

I hope you understand what I am trying to convey.

Leadership should empower their congregation to pray and seek God, go to the word, and make their own decisions. Just because some people are followers does not give leadership license to make decisions for them. Strive for spiritual maturity. You need to grow the children up not keep them in the crib:).

Leadership, much like counselors, have to detach from the client/member's issues to have their own life. It is not my responsibility to carry the burden of my clients, not the Pastor's responsibility to make decisions for the congregation. They are to teach and feed the flock/congregation through example and word.

You'd be surprised if you put the responsibility back on the person by asking them what they think they should do in light of what God has said in his word...can come up with the right answer for themselves.

Blessings, Rhoni

Sam
10-28-2008, 09:02 AM
Sam,
What did ABI teach about the grace of God?
Blessings, Rhoni

You know, now that you've asked, I can't really remember how the subject of "grace" was handled. Bro. Norris was a strong "three-stepper" but he taught the doctrine that is some times called the "light doctrine" and some times called the "holy, righteous and wicked" doctrine. In other words, Acts 2:38 is the message we preach and hold people to but everyone will be judged by how well they walked in the light they had and many who have never heard of Acts 2:28 or didn't understand Acts 2:38, or never knew about Christianity, will receive eternal life at the Great White Throne. He emphasized that in his doctrine class. Also, he was very emphatic about the "Gospels, Acts, and Epistles" divisions of the New Testament. We were told not to look at the Epistles to find out how to be saved. But, I don't remember him ever telling us not to teach or preach from Romans. Another thing he was strong on was that there could never be more apostles than the original twelve plus Paul. He taught that they erred when they chose Matthias and that God did not recognize him as an apostle. He was also strong against the "oil doctrine." He was critical of Amy McPherson, Little David Walker, and A.A. Allen. He posted a certificate or news article (don't remember which) in the school hallway about A.A. Allen being arrested for DUI. I don't, however, ever remember him putting down Bro. Howard Goss as being "weak on the message." Bro. Norris was a strong man and could be caustic and you didn't dare cross him. But I don't remember him being called "the Bear." That term may have come later. Some of us used to say that his initials S.G. stood for Sagging Gut.

I was only there one year and I was a baby Christian.

Pressing-On
10-28-2008, 09:04 AM
Leadership should empower their congregation to pray and seek God, go to the word, and make their own decisions. Just because some people are followers does not give leadership license to make decisions for them.

Leadership, much like counselors, have to detach from the client/member's issues to have their own life. It is not my responsibility to carry the burden of my clients, not the Pastor's responsibility to make decisions for the congregation. They are to teach and feed the flock/congregation through example and word.

You'd be surprised if you put the responsibility back on the person by asking them what they think they should do in light of what God has said in his word...can come up with the right answer for themselves.

Blessings, Rhoni
I agree with what you are saying. I am a self-starter and have never had a problem in this area.

Just looking back and having been under both good and bad leadership, I still see a large group of people that don't seem to have a "desire" to try and think for themselves.

I don't know where that comes from. I'm not sure we can totally blame that on a lack of good leadership in all cases.

I personally know a great leader and preacher who has cried and said, "I can't get these people to stop living off of my anointing and seek their own."

This still amazes me. I don't understand it. I'm sure I am approaching your thread from another direction. LOL!

tssp
10-28-2008, 09:04 AM
I think sometimes we do all kinds of things trying to make ourselves holy (such as how we dress, places we stay away from, people we stay away from etc.) and then we finally realize WE can't make ourselves holy. We can rule and regulate our lives until we're blue in the face and that is not what makes us holy.

Sam
10-28-2008, 09:05 AM
Oh, about "Grace," from what this foggy brain remembers from over half a century ago, Bro. Norris emphasized that the Church Age went from Pentecost to the Rapture and it was called the Grace Age. He was a dispensationalist when it came to that. He also taught that the 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2 and 3 represented different phases of the Church Age.

Withdrawn
10-28-2008, 09:08 AM
I believe "GRACE" is the most beautiful, yet most misunderstood words in the entire scripture. Grace, to me, is God's favor, His pity on us whereby, in immeasurable love He forgives our sins and gives us abundant life. Quite simply put, he offers us that which we do not deserve.

I was sitting at the fringes the other day of a youth meeting where one of the youth leaders made a statement that said there will be people who go to hell with the Holy Ghost. The expression on my face must have been priceless because EVERYONE in the room knew of my immediate displeasure with that statement. The context in which he said it was that, you could be saved but "not living right" and die suddenly and go straight to hell.

What his definition of "living right" was, I have no idea. But I can guess that it's a legalistic definition that puts more stress on "doing" and always being vigilant lest you be found not "doing enough." The sad thing is that he is a good man who has a servant's heart and truly loves the Lord, but his views are warped by years of teaching by an apostate pastor that treated the subject of grace like it was a swear word while emphasizing outward signs of "holiness" and "living right."

The Law is the enemy of Grace. And when people revert back to the law for their list of what they can and cannot do, the grace of God becomes worthless to them. And now, they are debtors to do the whole law.

Pressing-On
10-28-2008, 09:15 AM
I believe "GRACE" is the most beautiful, yet most misunderstood words in the entire scripture. Grace, to me, is God's favor, His pity on us whereby, in immeasurable love He forgives our sins and gives us abundant life. Quite simply put, he offers us that which we do not deserve.

I was sitting at the fringes the other day of a youth meeting where one of the youth leaders made a statement that said there will be people who go to hell with the Holy Ghost. The expression on my face must have been priceless because EVERYONE in the room knew of my immediate displeasure with that statement. The context in which he said it was that, you could be saved but "not living right" and die suddenly and go straight to hell.

What his definition of "living right" was, I have no idea. But I can guess that it's a legalistic definition that puts more stress on "doing" and always being vigilant lest you be found not "doing enough." The sad thing is that he is a good man who has a servant's heart and truly loves the Lord, but his views are warped by years of teaching by an apostate pastor that treated the subject of grace like it was a swear word while emphasizing outward signs of "holiness" and "living right."

The Law is the enemy of Grace. And when people revert back to the law for their list of what they can and cannot do, the grace of God becomes worthless to them. And now, they are debtors to do the whole law.

I believe you have answered a question for me - The "fear" factor of our steps every day in living for God. While a healthy respect and love for God is right, a plummeting "fear" is very unhealthy and diverts our attention from the beauty and strength we find in God - in His Spirit that dwells in us.

If we focus more on fear of failing and not on the strength we are afforded, through His Spirit, we become weak.

"Having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh."

Withdrawn
10-28-2008, 09:17 AM
Just looking back and having been under both good and bad leadership, I still see a large group of people that don't seem to have a "desire" to try and think for themselves.

I don't know where that comes from. I'm not sure we can totally blame that on a lack of good leadership in all cases.

I don't believe it's necessarily a lack of good leadership, as it is perhaps a lack of a good example. Let me explain, because I know that sounds harsh.

The thing is, unless people are hungry, they won't go looking for food. Unless people are thirsty for living water, they won't go looking for something to drink. Instead, they are lulled to sleep and end up becoming fat and lazy. Our job, as salt, is to make people thirsty! If people had more examples of people on fire for God, making a difference, walking in the freedom wherein Christ has made them free and in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost, they would be more likely to grow hungry or thirsty for that same life. The won't find it if they are not seeking. Our mistake comes when we try to force our own substitute on them.

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 09:21 AM
I believe "GRACE" is the most beautiful, yet most misunderstood words in the entire scripture. Grace, to me, is God's favor, His pity on us whereby, in immeasurable love He forgives our sins and gives us abundant life. Quite simply put, he offers us that which we do not deserve.

I was sitting at the fringes the other day of a youth meeting where one of the youth leaders made a statement that said there will be people who go to hell with the Holy Ghost. The expression on my face must have been priceless because EVERYONE in the room knew of my immediate displeasure with that statement. The context in which he said it was that, you could be saved but "not living right" and die suddenly and go straight to hell.

What his definition of "living right" was, I have no idea. But I can guess that it's a legalistic definition that puts more stress on "doing" and always being vigilant lest you be found not "doing enough." The sad thing is that he is a good man who has a servant's heart and truly loves the Lord, but his views are warped by years of teaching by an apostate pastor that treated the subject of grace like it was a swear word while emphasizing outward signs of "holiness" and "living right."

The Law is the enemy of Grace. And when people revert back to the law for their list of what they can and cannot do, the grace of God becomes worthless to them. And now, they are debtors to do the whole law.

I believe you have answered a question for me - The "fear" factor of our steps every day in living for God. While a healthy respect and love for God is right, a plummeting "fear" is very unhealthy and diverts our attention from the beauty and strength we find in God - in His Spirit that dwells in us.

If we focus more on fear of failing and not on the strength we are afforded, through His Spirit, we become weak.

"Having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh."

The bannana-peel religion and the works and shame based makes it's members feel far from safe in God's grace.

I believe you were quoting out of Ephesians. and I do belive that ABI did teach dispensationalism but didn't truly teach about the Grace of God and what it meant to a believer; the hope and peace we can have in our salvation.

Going to a meeting...will be back to continue this discussion.

Blessings, Rhoni

Sam
10-28-2008, 09:27 AM
A couple definitions of GRACE that I have seen:

G od's
R iches
A t
C hrist's
E xpense

and

G od
R eaching
A ccepting
C leansing, converting, changing
E dification (growth/development)

Pressing-On
10-28-2008, 09:30 AM
I don't believe it's necessarily a lack of good leadership, as it is perhaps a lack of a good example. Let me explain, because I know that sounds harsh.

The thing is, unless people are hungry, they won't go looking for food. Unless people are thirsty for living water, they won't go looking for something to drink. Instead, they are lulled to sleep and end up becoming fat and lazy. Our job, as salt, is to make people thirsty! If people had more examples of people on fire for God, making a difference, walking in the freedom wherein Christ has made them free and in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost, they would be more likely to grow hungry or thirsty for that same life. The won't find it if they are not seeking. Our mistake comes when we try to force our own substitute on them.

I totally agree with what you are saying!

But then, back again, I'm reminded of a particular church where the dynamics changed when a few of us came into the prayer room. People began to pray, but if any were absent, for some reason, it wasn't the same.

So, coming in and being on fire for God or being the salt - and if I may use an illustration - seemed like an air conditioning unit in a trailer home - when it's blowing everything is cool, but when it turns off it doesn't sustain the same degree in temperature.

I still find that amazing and still see that many people can't seem to take the initiative for themselves.

Therefore, my opinion is that, to some degree, the mindset has bred "legalism" in many cases.

Sam
10-28-2008, 09:30 AM
While reading this, an old Rambo song keeps going through my mind.
I can't remember some of it, but it said something like this:

Mercy, mercy, God's loving mercy
Has saved both you and me.
If we had gotten justice, we would surely be lost
But we found mercy when we knelt at the cross.

Ron
10-28-2008, 09:35 AM
Grace is biblical, Legalism is not in the Bible & frankly, was made up by a modern day saint who was bitter at not being able to live for God on thier own terms.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


Grace teaches us that there are ways we shouldn't a act, ways we shouldn't dress anymore.
Tell me you do not think that someone who dresses like a Prostitute can continue that way?
That a person who always goes to bars or clubs can continue on?

Grace "teaches" us!

You do need a change of lifestyle, now how much of a change is up for debate.

You do need a change.

commonsense
10-28-2008, 09:39 AM
Just to defend Bro Norris------as an ABI graduate and attendee of MN camp I would not apply the term legalism to amything connected with Bro Norris.
He was firm on many teachings but they weren't the typical legalism topics, ie appearance.
It was more of boys sit on one side, girls on the other; discouraged any activities with boys and girls together; as in games at camp. Really careful concerning the boy/girl separation.
But I never heard anything I would consider legalism.
Bro Norris really tried to have scriptures to support his thoughts!

commonsense
10-28-2008, 09:43 AM
I will add----------
My mother attended ABI for 1 yr during WWII, and I in the late 60's; her comment was that Bro Norris had mellowed alot since she had attended ABI.
So maybe in the early days he had a different approach.

Jack Shephard
10-28-2008, 09:53 AM
Interesting thread here. Grace is the most beautiful gift that God affords us. Second is the Holy Spirit. I don't agree that legalism was made up by a 'modern day saint'. I think there is legalism on both sides. One can be legalistic by saying every has to be at the same level, dress, actions, places you go to, etc. Also legalism is on the other side. Those in the lib camps can be legalistic cause they say anything goes, no one needs standards, etc. We all should have a relationship with God and He is the one that directs us.

Thank God for Pastors. But some of them take saints down a road they need not go. Roads are needed, but not all roads get you to the same place. My Pastor is pretty balanced as far as erroring on the side of Grace though he teaches standards and such. He is a 3-stepper, and he knows that I am not. But we get by just fine. There are some 3-steppers that believe hard core about standards and 3-steps, but are not legalistics. The big step in legalism is realizing that not all people are going to see thing similarly and not everyone has the same convictions. God does deal with individuals on what they themselves should do. God is no respector of persons, He deals with each of us on our level. Thank God for Grace. Grace is us receiving salvation that otherwise we would not be able to obtain without the cause of the cross.

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 10:25 AM
I don't believe it's necessarily a lack of good leadership, as it is perhaps a lack of a good example. Let me explain, because I know that sounds harsh.

The thing is, unless people are hungry, they won't go looking for food. Unless people are thirsty for living water, they won't go looking for something to drink. Instead, they are lulled to sleep and end up becoming fat and lazy. Our job, as salt, is to make people thirsty! If people had more examples of people on fire for God, making a difference, walking in the freedom wherein Christ has made them free and in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost, they would be more likely to grow hungry or thirsty for that same life. The won't find it if they are not seeking. Our mistake comes when we try to force our own substitute on them.

I like that! Great thought!

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 10:28 AM
Interesting thread here. Grace is the most beautiful gift that God affords us. Second is the Holy Spirit. I don't agree that legalism was made up by a 'modern day saint'. I think there is legalism on both sides. One can be legalistic by saying every has to be at the same level, dress, actions, places you go to, etc. Also legalism is on the other side. Those in the lib camps can be legalistic cause they say anything goes, no one needs standards, etc. We all should have a relationship with God and He is the one that directs us.

Thank God for Pastors. But some of them take saints down a road they need not go. Roads are needed, but not all roads get you to the same place. My Pastor is pretty balanced as far as erroring on the side of Grace though he teaches standards and such. He is a 3-stepper, and he knows that I am not. But we get by just fine. There are some 3-steppers that believe hard core about standards and 3-steps, but are not legalistics. The big step in legalism is realizing that not all people are going to see thing similarly and not everyone has the same convictions. God does deal with individuals on what they themselves should do. God is no respector of persons, He deals with each of us on our level. Thank God for Grace. Grace is us receiving salvation that otherwise we would not be able to obtain without the cause of the cross.

Amen! Thank you.

Blessings, Rhoni

cliff d
10-28-2008, 10:48 AM
Grace is progressive as it always leads to faith and faith leads to the producing of good works. Too many have it backwards and emphasize good works as a way to faith instead of faith as a means to good works.
According to Ephesians 2:8,we are saved by grace(what God does)through faith(what we do).When the emphasis is put on rules as a means to faith,faith cannot develop. Faith demands freedom to trust God independently of unnecessary law.
When religion is unduly structured,faith is aborted as people automatically lean on the structure as a substitute for leaning on God.
Neo-Phariseeism erects unnecessary laws and is regressive to the development of faith.

Nonessential regimentation always leads to the frustration of grace,which in turn leads to the killing of faith which in turn leads to spiritual shallowness.
INSTEAD OF LEADING TO MORE FAITH, NEO-PHARISEEISM LEADS TO NO FAITH.

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 10:57 AM
Grace is progressive as it always leads to faith and faith leads to the producing of good works. Too many have it backwards and emphasize good works as a way to faith instead of faith as a means to good works.
According to Ephesians 2:8,we are saved by grace(what God does)through faith(what we do).When the emphasis is put on rules as a means to faith,faith cannot develop. Faith demands freedom to trust God independently of unnecessary law.
When religion is unduly structured,faith is aborted as people automatically lean on the structure as a substitute for leaning on God.
Neo-Phariseeism erects unnecessary laws and is regressive to the development of faith.

Nonessential regimentation always leads to the frustration of grace,which in turn leads to the killing of faith which in turn leads to spiritual shallowness.
INSTEAD OF LEADING TO MORE FAITH, NEO-PHARISEEISM LEADS TO NO FAITH.

This is shown scripture after scripture isn't it. Even when Moses was on the mountain as God was giving him the ten commandments the people needed a God they could see and rituals they could perform to make them feel religious.

The reason for many of the unrealistic dress standards put upon us are about "Give them and inch and they'll take a mile. It isn't a sin but you know it could lead to one". The Bible teaches moderation in all things. When you constantly rail at people about how to dress, where to go, what not to do...you set them up for failure and hopelessness.

The more you love God, the more faith you acquire, the more fruits of the Spirit you cultivate in your life the more moderate you will be.

Blessings, Rhoni

Jack Shephard
10-28-2008, 10:59 AM
There is a dicatomy to Grace though. The law said if you touch a in adultery women/man you were to be stoned. Grace says if you even think about a women/man that you would die in your sins with out repenting. Grace is not a get out of jail free card. Grace saves us. It is also an open line of communication to the Saviour so we can return again through repentance.

Ron
10-28-2008, 11:03 AM
This is shown scripture after scripture isn't it. Even when Moses was on the mountain as God was giving him the ten commandments the people needed a God they could see and rituals they could perform to make them feel religious.

The reason for many of the unrealistic dress standards put upon us are about "Give them and inch and they'll take a mile. It isn't a sin but you know it could lead to one". The Bible teaches moderation in all things. When you constantly rail at people about how to dress, where to go, what not to do...you set them up for failure and hopelessness.

The more you love God, the more faith you acquire, the more fruits of the Spirit you cultivate in your life the more moderate you will be.

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni,

You get what you preach/teach.
Preach faith for a healing-you will get the faith that produces a healing!
Preach against sin & you will get conviction.

People are sheep & sheep are dumb (with apologies to sheep) & need teaching.

Otherwise Pastors are not needed & irrelevant.

We had one new convert going around wearing "see through" blouses!
The Pastors wife went & spoke to her & it cleared the matter up.
She was sincere, but sincerely wrong.

I guess that is legalism.

Steve Epley
10-28-2008, 11:18 AM
Grace is NOT God's septic tank that catches all our trash.
Grace gives victory over sin.

LEGALISM IS NOT OBEYING WHAT IS COMMANDED IN THE NEW COVENANT THAT IS GRACE WITHIN ITSELF.

cliff d
10-28-2008, 11:26 AM
So our emphasis should be on getting believers to develop a relational liaison with the vine rather than a structural relationship with man's standards. Grace will deepen your walk with the Lord because it is relational in nature and not structural. Grace is an affiliation of the believer and Christ, that is held together by love that creates good works as a byproduct rather than as required performance.
Grace has a higher standard than law because it says: Have your own way in all my life. Grace goes beyond rule books and bylaws.

We need grace to do more of the teaching rather than man regulating everything for the believer. Too many believers have no concept of letting grace develop their faith because they have been choked and hindered by man's interpretation of everything.

Withdrawn
10-28-2008, 11:27 AM
LEGALISM IS NOT OBEYING WHAT IS COMMANDED IN THE NEW COVENANT THAT IS GRACE WITHIN ITSELF.

Amen, Elder! I respect your position, and hope that you can respect mine.

Let me just say that obeying what is commanded in the New Covenant is not legalism, it also is not creating dress codes and rules based on a group of men's concept of how it should be applied. I believe in modesty, and in discipling new believers by example. But codifying our convictions removes grace and DOES replace it with legalism.

God bless.

Withdrawn
10-28-2008, 11:28 AM
So our emphasis should be on getting believers to develop a relational liaison with the vine rather than a structural relationship with man's standards. Grace will deepen your walk with the Lord because it is relational in nature and not structural. Grace is an affiliation of the believer and Christ, that is held together by love that creates good works as a byproduct rather than as required performance.
Grace has a higher standard than law because it says: Have your own way in all my life. Grace goes beyond rule books and bylaws.

We need grace to do more of the teaching rather than man regulating everything for the believer. Too many believers have no concept of letting grace develop their faith because they have been choked and hindered by man's interpretation of everything.

WOW! Very well said!

Ron
10-28-2008, 11:29 AM
So our emphasis should be on getting believers to develop a relational liaison with the vine rather than a structural relationship with man's standards. Grace will deepen your walk with the Lord because it is relational in nature and not structural. Grace is an affiliation of the believer and Christ, that is held together by love that creates good works as a byproduct rather than as required performance.
Grace has a higher standard than law because it says: Have your own way in all my life. Grace goes beyond rule books and bylaws.

We need grace to do more of the teaching rather than man regulating everything for the believer. Too many believers have no concept of letting grace develop their faith because they have been choked and hindered by man's interpretation of everything.

On the flip side of the argument man is inherently sinful & chafes at being told what to do--by anybody!

It is Biblical to be submitted to a man of God.
Our job is to find that man that we can submit too.

cliff d
10-28-2008, 11:40 AM
We need some necessary support for the child of God. But when there is growth it is time
to loosen or remove the support so it will not strangle the one we are trying to help.

Steve Epley
10-28-2008, 11:42 AM
Most folks concept of grace is a disgrace.
What is sin is the first question?
John replies "sin is a transgression of the LAW." 1Jn. 3:4
Paul speaks of the "LAW of life in Christ." Rom. 8:3

There is NO liberty without law. Contrary to the popular opinion on this forum the ministry is NOT a necessary evil.
The Holy Ghost sets men over the flock Acts 20:28, 1Pet. 5:1-4
The ministry is for the perfecting of the saints Eph. 4:11
Saints were commanded to remember Heb.13;7, obey 13:17, salute 13:21 those who had the RULE over them.

Jude and Peter's warnings about those who dispise GOVERNMENT are very strong 2Pet. 2:10-14, Jude 8-13

Most folks discussing LEGALISM and GRACE don't have a clue about either.

Michael Phelps
10-28-2008, 11:44 AM
I agree with what you are saying. I am a self-starter and have never had a problem in this area.

Just looking back and having been under both good and bad leadership, I still see a large group of people that don't seem to have a "desire" to try and think for themselves.

I don't know where that comes from. I'm not sure we can totally blame that on a lack of good leadership in all cases.

I personally know a great leader and preacher who has cried and said, "I can't get these people to stop living off of my anointing and seek their own."

This still amazes me. I don't understand it. I'm sure I am approaching your thread from another direction. LOL!


PO, I totally agree with what you are saying here. Some people do not WANT to think for themselves.

I encountered this when I pastored, and believe it or not, I still encounter it in the secular world.

I have some Project Managers who are self-starters, manage their own projects without prompting from me, have their reports in to me in a timely fashion, schedule their own meetings, etc. and I never have to prompt them. I make training available to them and they readily accept it. I spend time empowering them to handle increasing responsibility, and they are eager to do so.

Then, I have some Project Managers who I have to continually prod to complete their Best Practices, schedule their meetings, have their equipment delivered in time for install, etc. The ironic thing is, the ones I have to lead by the hand are my SENIOR project managers, in most cases!

Say what you will, but some folks will accept the empowerment and assist the leader with their abilities and desire to learn and advance, and others will just be a drain on the leader's time.

Do they all have worth? Absolutely!
Do you have to treat them differently? Absolutely.

El Predicador
10-28-2008, 11:45 AM
most folks concept of grace is a disgrace.
What is sin is the first question?
John replies "sin is a transgression of the law." 1jn. 3:4
paul speaks of the "law of life in christ." rom. 8:3

there is no liberty without law. Contrary to the popular opinion on this forum the ministry is not a necessary evil.
The holy ghost sets men over the flock acts 20:28, 1pet. 5:1-4
the ministry is for the perfecting of the saints eph. 4:11
saints were commanded to remember heb.13;7, obey 13:17, salute 13:21 those who had the rule over them.

Jude and peter's warnings about those who dispise government are very strong 2pet. 2:10-14, jude 8-13

most folks discussing legalism and grace don't have a clue about either.

amen brother epley

Pressing-On
10-28-2008, 11:48 AM
PO, I totally agree with what you are saying here. Some people do not WANT to think for themselves.

I encountered this when I pastored, and believe it or not, I still encounter it in the secular world.

I have some Project Managers who are self-starters, manage their own projects without prompting from me, have their reports in to me in a timely fashion, schedule their own meetings, etc. and I never have to prompt them. I make training available to them and they readily accept it. I spend time empowering them to handle increasing responsibility, and they are eager to do so.

Then, I have some Project Managers who I have to continually prod to complete their Best Practices, schedule their meetings, have their equipment delivered in time for install, etc. The ironic thing is, the ones I have to lead by the hand are my SENIOR project managers, in most cases!

Say what you will, but some folks will accept the empowerment and assist the leader with their abilities and desire to learn and advance, and others will just be a drain on the leader's time.

Do they all have worth? Absolutely!
Do you have to treat them differently? Absolutely.

Oh my goodness!!! Someone actually paid attention to what I was saying and understood!!! Thank you!!!!! :dogkiss :toofunny

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 11:49 AM
Rhoni,

You get what you preach/teach.
Preach faith for a healing-you will get the faith that produces a healing!
Preach against sin & you will get conviction.

People are sheep & sheep are dumb (with apologies to sheep) & need teaching.

Otherwise Pastors are not needed & irrelevant.

We had one new convert going around wearing "see through" blouses!
The Pastors wife went & spoke to her & it cleared the matter up.
She was sincere, but sincerely wrong.

I guess that is legalism.

Ron, Last time I checked...Pastors were people/sheep and they are also 'dumb' as you call it. Jesus is the Sheperd and not the Pastor. The pastor's job is to feed the sheep not kill them.

You have to let new converts observe and learn you should allow the spirit of God to convict. God does not need a saints help to address modesty with new converts...unless they ask. If you address it before God does then they are not going to own the conviction they will be assimilating into Apostolic culture...and it won't last.

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 11:50 AM
Grace is NOT God's septic tank that catches all our trash.
Grace gives victory over sin.

LEGALISM IS NOT OBEYING WHAT IS COMMANDED IN THE NEW COVENANT THAT IS GRACE WITHIN ITSELF.

Actually it is...Christ became sin and accepted the penalty of all our sin from the beginning of time until the end of it.

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 11:53 AM
So our emphasis should be on getting believers to develop a relational liaison with the vine rather than a structural relationship with man's standards. Grace will deepen your walk with the Lord because it is relational in nature and not structural. Grace is an affiliation of the believer and Christ, that is held together by love that creates good works as a byproduct rather than as required performance.
Grace has a higher standard than law because it says: Have your own way in all my life. Grace goes beyond rule books and bylaws.

We need grace to do more of the teaching rather than man regulating everything for the believer. Too many believers have no concept of letting grace develop their faith because they have been choked and hindered by man's interpretation of everything.

:friend Praise God! AMEN and AMEN!

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 11:54 AM
Most folks concept of grace is a disgrace.
What is sin is the first question?
John replies "sin is a transgression of the LAW." 1Jn. 3:4
Paul speaks of the "LAW of life in Christ." Rom. 8:3

There is NO liberty without law. Contrary to the popular opinion on this forum the ministry is NOT a necessary evil.
The Holy Ghost sets men over the flock Acts 20:28, 1Pet. 5:1-4
The ministry is for the perfecting of the saints Eph. 4:11
Saints were commanded to remember Heb.13;7, obey 13:17, salute 13:21 those who had the RULE over them.

Jude and Peter's warnings about those who dispise GOVERNMENT are very strong 2Pet. 2:10-14, Jude 8-13

Most folks discussing LEGALISM and GRACE don't have a clue about either.

Case in point:tease

mfblume
10-28-2008, 12:05 PM
Also, legalists usually do not know what legalism is. Grace is where God empowers us to change and legalism is where we do it through human energy without dependence upon God's power whatsoever.

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 12:09 PM
Also, legalists usually do not know what legalism is. Grace is where God empowers us to change and legalism is where we do it through human energy without dependence upon God's power whatsoever.


Amen. And as I said before...man's dependence on following these manmade rules to the letter set men/women up for failure. We need God's grace to empower us.

Blessings, Rhoni

Withdrawn
10-28-2008, 12:15 PM
Most folks concept of grace is a disgrace.
What is sin is the first question?
John replies "sin is a transgression of the LAW." 1Jn. 3:4
Paul speaks of the "LAW of life in Christ." Rom. 8:3

There is NO liberty without law. Contrary to the popular opinion on this forum the ministry is NOT a necessary evil.
The Holy Ghost sets men over the flock Acts 20:28, 1Pet. 5:1-4
The ministry is for the perfecting of the saints Eph. 4:11
Saints were commanded to remember Heb.13;7, obey 13:17, salute 13:21 those who had the RULE over them.

Jude and Peter's warnings about those who dispise GOVERNMENT are very strong 2Pet. 2:10-14, Jude 8-13

Most folks discussing LEGALISM and GRACE don't have a clue about either.

I'll say this as respectfully as I can. It is not my goal to offend.

I think you've made a great point, but perhaps not as you had hoped. We are to submit to the ministry, you are correct. But the ministry is for the perfecting of the saints, not for encumbering the saints with more law. The ministry is to LEAD, not DRIVE. Pastors are NOT the only office of ministry, and they certainly are NOT infallible. And they are NOT given authority to formulate codes and laws, force them on the saints, then call them sinful and rebellious if they don't obey what God has not commanded in the first place.

I respect your position that holiness and modesty require a specific code. I do not respect your assumption that because I don't agree with you that I don't have a clue about legalism or grace. I know many old-time saints that would send this entire generation of apostolics to hell because we don't see things the same way they do. Much like the "hold the fort" comment you made in another thread. It's an extremely arrogant and dangerous attitude to have. You know all the answers. You have all truth. So you'll hold that line no matter what. Unfortunately, you might miss some great revelation along the way.

If you only surround yourself with people with the same ideas and agree with you on everything, you'll never learn anything new. And if you only let a few in that have a different view - the only purpose being so you can show them how dumb they are and how smart you are, you'll never learn anything new and you'll only confirm how right you are in front of all the people in your club. But if you actually listen with an open mind instead of a made-up mind, you might learn that you DON'T have all the answers, you DON'T have a personal monopoly on truth, we're not all going to hell, that we don't hate holiness, that we love modesty and live a life of self-denial and purity despite not being encumbered with a set of rules devised by a group of 20th century men, however well-intentioned they may have been.

Withdrawn
10-28-2008, 12:17 PM
Also, legalists usually do not know what legalism is. Grace is where God empowers us to change and legalism is where we do it through human energy without dependence upon God's power whatsoever.

Amen. The attitude is "God's grace isn't really enough, we'll have to restrain them by giving them a code of conduct or rule book." The rule book is the Bible, and the tutor is the Holy Ghost.

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 12:18 PM
I'll say this as respectfully as I can. It is not my goal to offend.

I think you've made a great point, but perhaps not as you had hoped. We are to submit to the ministry, you are correct. But the ministry is for the perfecting of the saints, not for encumbering the saints with more law. Pastors are NOT the only office of ministry, and they certainly are NOT infallible. And they are NOT given authority to formulate codes and laws, force them on the saints, then call them sinful and rebellious if they don't obey what God has not commanded in the first place.

I respect your position that holiness and modesty require a specific code. I do not respect your assumption that because I don't agree with you that I don't have a clue about legalism or grace. I know many old-time saints that would send this entire generation of apostolics to hell because we don't see things the same way they do. Much like the "hold the fort" comment you made in another thread. It's an extremely arrogant and dangerous attitude to have. You know all the answers. You have all truth. So you'll hold that line no matter what. Unfortunately, you might miss some great revelation along the way.

If you only surround yourself with people with the same ideas and agree with you on everything, you'll never learn anything new. And if you only let a few in that have a different view - the only purpose being so you can show them how dumb they are and how smart you are, you'll never learn anything new and you'll only confirm how right you are in front of all the people in your club. But if you actually listen with an open mind instead of a made-up mind, you might learn that you DON'T have all the answers, you DON'T have a personal monopoly on truth, we're not all going to hell, that we don't hate holiness, that we love modesty and live a life of self-denial and purity despite not being encumbered with a set of rules devised by a group of 20th century men, however well-intentioned they may have been.

POTD!:friend

cliff d
10-28-2008, 12:21 PM
Bro.Epley The traditions held sacred by the Pharisees in many respects resemble local church standards that set parameters for dress and entertainment dictates. Standard is a term used by the church to describe what is deemed acceptable in the realm of adornment and amusement. Viewing standards from an organizational sphere,one might be inclined to say that the word standard is somewhat of an oxymoron,because there is nothing standard about the rules that govern local churches. It is probable that no two churches are exactly alike when it comes to these directives.
Standards seem to be in the eye of the beholder because what one brother thinks is proper, another deems sinful.
Factors that help determine one's beliefs in these areas include social upbringing,
geographical location,race and personality perceptions. Because of these variables there
is nothing standard about standards. In some parts of the country,one is not allowed to
wear even a wedding band and in another part of the country moderate jewelry may be
permitted.Both churches believe that they are within the scriptural perimeters of modesty.
We must teach that there are 3 levels of standards which I will adress later......I must go for a moment.

Michael Phelps
10-28-2008, 12:24 PM
Oh my goodness!!! Someone actually paid attention to what I was saying and understood!!! Thank you!!!!! :dogkiss :toofunny

Haha, you act surprised!

I heard a preacher make this statement once, and I can't disprove it - it actually makes a lot of sense. He was preaching about the man at the pool who had been lame for 38 years, and had no one to get him to the water when it was troubled.

Anyway, Jesus came along and asked the man if he would be (wanted to be) healed.

This may seem like a silly question, I mean who WOULDN'T want to be healed? But Jesus knew that if He healed the man, the man would have to walk on his own without anyone carrying him - he'd have to get a job and work for a living instead of having people give him money, and a host of other changes would have to happen in his life. In other words, he'd have to become a self-starter!

Makes sense to me!

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 12:26 PM
Bro.Epley The traditions held sacred by the Pharisees in many respects resemble local church standards that set parameters for dress and entertainment dictates. Standard is a term used by the church to describe what is deemed acceptable in the realm of adornment and amusement. Viewing standards from an organizational sphere,one might be inclined to say that the word standard is somewhat of an oxymoron,because there is nothing standard about the rules that govern local churches. It is probable that no two churches are exactly alike when it comes to these directives.
Standards seem to be in the eye of the beholder because what one brother thinks is proper, another deems sinful.
Factors that help determine one's beliefs in these areas include social upbringing,
geographical location,race and personality perceptions. Because of these variables there
is nothing standard about standards. In some parts of the country,one is not allowed to
wear even a wedding band and in another part of the country moderate jewelry may be
permitted.Both churches believe that they are within the scriptural perimeters of modesty.
We must teach that there are 3 levels of standards which I will adress later......I must go for a moment.

Can't wait - I enjoy many of your posts.

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 12:29 PM
Haha, you act surprised!

I heard a preacher make this statement once, and I can't disprove it - it actually makes a lot of sense. He was preaching about the man at the pool who had been lame for 38 years, and had no one to get him to the water when it was troubled.

Anyway, Jesus came along and asked the man if he would be (wanted to be) healed.

This may seem like a silly question, I mean who WOULDN'T want to be healed? But Jesus knew that if He healed the man, the man would have to walk on his own without anyone carrying him - he'd have to get a job and work for a living instead of having people give him money, and a host of other changes would have to happen in his life. In other words, he'd have to become a self-starter!

Makes sense to me!

This is so true. there are so many people who use 'working for God' as a way to get out of working and supporting their family. I think we could start another thread on that subject alone.

Blessings, Rhoni

mfblume
10-28-2008, 01:17 PM
When God told Paul that His grace was sufficient for Paul, rather than see Paul delivered from the thorn in his flesh, grace referred to empowerment from God. Most usually think of unmerited favor, but that is sometimes incomplete. God continued to tell Paul that His strength is made perfect in weakness. So, grace is associated with divine empowerment. And when people miss this, they can fall prey to legalism. Legalism says you must do it in your human, will power alone. Make yourself serve God. make yourself obey rules. We need God's empowerment to live up to what He expects us to do.

When people are left with the impression that they must do this and not do that, then legalism is in the air. We need to leave people with the impression that without God's empowerment, we cannot do anything for Him.

What impression do churches leave people with?

mfblume
10-28-2008, 01:21 PM
Amen. The attitude is "God's grace isn't really enough, we'll have to restrain them by giving them a code of conduct or rule book." The rule book is the Bible, and the tutor is the Holy Ghost.

Right. And this is when preachers actually replace God in the lives of the saints. Preachers are meant to teach the people how to hear from and be led by God -- not be led all the time by those preachers!

Glenda B
10-28-2008, 01:23 PM
Most folks concept of grace is a disgrace.
What is sin is the first question?
John replies "sin is a transgression of the LAW." 1Jn. 3:4
Paul speaks of the "LAW of life in Christ." Rom. 8:3

There is NO liberty without law. Contrary to the popular opinion on this forum the ministry is NOT a necessary evil.
The Holy Ghost sets men over the flock Acts 20:28, 1Pet. 5:1-4
The ministry is for the perfecting of the saints Eph. 4:11
Saints were commanded to remember Heb.13;7, obey 13:17, salute 13:21 those who had the RULE over them.

Jude and Peter's warnings about those who dispise GOVERNMENT are very strong 2Pet. 2:10-14, Jude 8-13

Most folks discussing LEGALISM and GRACE don't have a clue about either.

Amen Brother Epley

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 01:35 PM
When God told Paul that His grace was sufficient for Paul, rather than see Paul delivered from the thorn in his flesh, grace referred to empowerment from God. Most usually think of unmerited favor, but that is sometimes incomplete. God continued to tell Paul that His strength is made perfect in weakness. So, grace is associated with divine empowerment. And when people miss this, they can fall prey to legalism. Legalism says you must do it in your human, will power alone. Make yourself serve God. make yourself obey rules. We need God's empowerment to live up to what He expects us to do.

When people are left with the impression that they must do this and not do that, then legalism is in the air. We need to leave people with the impression that without God's empowerment, we cannot do anything for Him.

What impression do churches leave people with?

Right. And this is when preachers actually replace God in the lives of the saints. Preachers are meant to teach the people how to hear from and be led by God -- not be led all the time by those preachers!

This is good stuff! I will get my word down again in the morning and make some Biblical comments. I love discussing these things Biblically based; using texts that are in context!

Thank you for your posts.

Blessings, Rhoni

HADDOCK
10-28-2008, 02:05 PM
Leadership should empower their congregation to pray and seek God, go to the word, and make their own decisions. Just because some people are followers does not give leadership license to make decisions for them. Strive for spiritual maturity. You need to grow the children up not keep them in the crib:).

Well put. If folks are handed a list of do's and don'ts that affect all the areas of their lives, where does a personal relationship with God come in where they seek wisdom, pray about conviction, search for direction?

cliff d
10-28-2008, 02:10 PM
Three levels of standards:
1) Bible standards--- ones that are explicit such as do not commit adultery,and do not steal. these are directly commanded in scripture and are not subject to change.

2) Church standards---- those established by the pastor to cover principles taught in scripture. The Bible clearly gives spiritual leadership the authority to establish reasonable
guidelines for the protection of the Christian ( Hebrews 13:17 ). These cover areas where the Bible gives a certain principle,but it must be interpreted for our day. Such is the standard that deals with abstaining from smoking because the scripture gives the principle of not defiling your body because it is the temple of God (I Corinthians 3:16-17).
This seems to be clear and reasonable.
Some Biblical precepts however,create controversy because they are so general in nature and are open to many different interpretations. Such is the case for the principle of be ye separate and touch not the unclean thing (II Corinthians 6:17). One man may define being separate in vastly more narrow and parochial terms than another. For this reason each pastor should have the right to establish church standards for his own church. He knows the geographical and cultural factors better than some universal governing body.

3) Personal standards---- standards that are in the realm of the personal convictions of the individual Christian. This covers areas where the church has no ruling and the bible
is unclear or silent.

And brother Epley I do believe the church does have a right to establish standards of conduct when necessary but should refuse to make rules for every aspect of daily living and should leave areas not supported explicitly by scripture to the person when possible.
Even some church adornment standards may be necessary to avoid extremism. But other personal adornment standards may have value only as personal convictions and for
Christian maturity but should not be preached as essential to salvation.

In the final analysis, each christian is responsible to God to work out his/her own salvation with fear and to maintain holiness in his/her life.

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 02:14 PM
Three levels of standards:
1) Bible standards--- ones that are explicit such as do not commit adultery,and do not steal. these are directly commanded in scripture and are not subject to change.

2) Church standards---- those established by the pastor to cover principles taught in scripture. The Bible clearly gives spiritual leadership the authority to establish reasonable
guidelines for the protection of the Christian ( Hebrews 13:17 ). These cover areas where the Bible gives a certain principle,but it must be interpreted for our day. Such is the standard that deals with abstaining from smoking because the scripture gives the principle of not defiling your body because it is the temple of God (I Corinthians 3:16-17).
This seems to be clear and reasonable.
Some Biblical precepts however,create controversy because they are so general in nature and are open to many different interpretations. Such is the case for the principle of be ye separate and touch not the unclean thing (II Corinthians 6:17). One man may define being separate in vastly more narrow and parochial terms than another. For this reason each pastor should have the right to establish church standards for his own church. He knows the geographical and cultural factors better than some universal governing body.

3) Personal standards---- standards that are in the realm of the personal convictions of the individual Christian. This covers areas where the church has no ruling and the bible
is unclear or silent.

And brother Epley I do believe the church does have a right to establish standards of conduct when necessary but should refuse to make rules for every aspect of daily living and should leave areas not supported explicitly by scripture to the person when possible.
Even some church adornment standards may be necessary to avoid extremism. But other personal adornment standards may have value only as personal convictions and for
Christian maturity but should not be preached as essential to salvation.

In the final analysis, each christian is responsible to God to work out his/her own salvation with fear and to maintain holiness in his/her life.

Excellent post. :friend

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 02:15 PM
Well put. If folks are handed a list of do's and don'ts that affect all the areas of their lives, where does a personal relationship with God come in where they seek wisdom, pray about conviction, search for direction?

AMEN. You have to exercise those prayer bones and decision making processes seeking God's direction for your life. The more you do it, the more proficient you are, and the less you find it necessary to seek help or advice from others.:friend

Michael Phelps
10-28-2008, 02:19 PM
AMEN. You have to exercise those prayer bones and decision making processes seeking God's direction for your life. The more you do it, the more proficient you are, and the less you find it necessary to seek help or advice from others.:friend

One always needs accountability in their life tho.

*When Samuel was addressed by God directly, he still went to Eli to verify what he thought God said.

*Even after David was anointed King, he submitted himself to Saul who was King at the time.

*And, when Moses saw a burning bush and heard God speaking, he went back home and asked his father-in-law what he should do.

I agree that we all need to hear from God, but we need someone in our lives who can help us confirm what we're feeling in the Spirit.

Rhoni
10-28-2008, 02:20 PM
One always needs accountability in their life tho.

*When Samuel was addressed by God directly, he still went to Eli to verify what he thought God said.

*Even after David was anointed King, he submitted himself to Saul who was King at the time.

*And, when Moses saw a burning bush and heard God speaking, he went back home and asked his father-in-law what he should do.

I agree that we all need to hear from God, but we need someone in our lives who can help us confirm what we're feeling in the Spirit.

Yes, I have good friends that I trust. I am blessed.

Blessings, Rhoni

Ron
10-28-2008, 02:24 PM
One always needs accountability in their life tho.

*When Samuel was addressed by God directly, he still went to Eli to verify what he thought God said.

*Even after David was anointed King, he submitted himself to Saul who was King at the time.

*And, when Moses saw a burning bush and heard God speaking, he went back home and asked his father-in-law what he should do.

I agree that we all need to hear from God, but we need someone in our lives who can help us confirm what we're feeling in the Spirit.

Amen,

I have men I can trust for that purpose!

Pressing-On
10-28-2008, 02:25 PM
One always needs accountability in their life tho.

*When Samuel was addressed by God directly, he still went to Eli to verify what he thought God said.

*Even after David was anointed King, he submitted himself to Saul who was King at the time.

*And, when Moses saw a burning bush and heard God speaking, he went back home and asked his father-in-law what he should do.

I agree that we all need to hear from God, but we need someone in our lives who can help us confirm what we're feeling in the Spirit.

Good post, Michael!!!

Praxeas
10-28-2008, 02:29 PM
Galatians isn't the only book where we are told as Christians/Christ followers to not take back the yoke of the law with its regulations and rules because it makes the grace of God to no effect. This is also contained in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and today I read in Colossians Chapter 2:13: When you who were dead in your sins and in the circumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having cancelled the written code, with its regulatians, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; He took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authoritities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabboth day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported, and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules; Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body, butt they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

I would like to discuss this issue without name calling, judgments about my character or anyone else's. Let's look together at the word of God. It is too easy when one has no answer to throw stones and someone you consider lesser than yourself. We are all levelled at the foot of the cross.

In God's grip,
Rhoni


The point in Paul's Letters is often missed by both sides. Paul is not saying "don't do works". He is saying those that say they are justified by the works of the law are fallen from grace. This does not mean you can't keep the law, but it certainly means you don't HAVE to keep the law. However one has to define works. Works is often defined in scriptures as those ordinances under the law. We are told to obey the gospel, but not the law of Moses.

The Gospel message goes behind "Jesus died and rose again", That is a simple gospel statement, but clearly the Apostles elaborated on that.

Doing things or abstaining from things...if those are to be considered works are still things we MUST do AS Christians...not things we MUST do in order to become Christians.

Maintaining salvation? If one is to maintain salvation they are to maintain healthy faith, not a list of dos and don'ts. The dos and don'ts are really more of an indicator of a healthy faith. Yes if you lied you sinned. Not lying is not what saves you..or not sinning is not what saves you. Jesus saves us, by faith IN Jesus. Not sinning can't save you, but sinning willfully without repentance can reverse that, because you are willfully grieving the Spirit of God.

A Person who is walking by faith is grieved with sin and repents. A person who is not saved or on his way to not being saved, does not care anymore and will continue to sin without any thought of repentence

LUKE2447
10-28-2008, 02:29 PM
Most folks discussing LEGALISM and GRACE don't have a clue about either.[/QUOTE]

Couldn't agree more! The term liberty also is usually a word used without understanding. As liberty is the ability to sin without it being counted against you much in the same way as grace is used. Paul always contrasted Grace with sin and notice "sin" was still sin whether Grace or no grace! hmmm Shall we continue in "sin" that Grace may abound? hmmm How can a person still sin if "one is not under law"?
As usual people don't understand the terms and make Paul contrary to the rest of the Word of God.

Jack Shephard
10-28-2008, 02:35 PM
Most folks discussing LEGALISM and GRACE don't have a clue about either.

Couldn't agree more! The term liberty also is usually a word used without understanding. As liberty is the ability to sin without it being counted against you much in the same way as grace is used. Paul always contrasted Grace with sin and notice "sin" was still sin whether Grace or no grace! hmmm Shall we continue in "sin" that Grace may abound? hmmm How can a person still sin if "one is not under law"?
As usual people don't understand the terms and make Paul contrary to the rest of the Word of God.[/QUOTE]


No one is saying Grace and Liberty are licenses to sin. None of us here have acted that way.

Ron
10-28-2008, 02:42 PM
The point in Paul's Letters is often missed by both sides. Paul is not saying "don't do works". He is saying those that say they are justified by the works of the law are fallen from grace. This does not mean you can't keep the law, but it certainly means you don't HAVE to keep the law. However one has to define works. Works is often defined in scriptures as those ordinances under the law. We are told to obey the gospel, but not the law of Moses.

The Gospel message goes behind "Jesus died and rose again", That is a simple gospel statement, but clearly the Apostles elaborated on that.

Doing things or abstaining from things...if those are to be considered works are still things we MUST do AS Christians...not things we MUST do in order to become Christians.

Maintaining salvation? If one is to maintain salvation they are to maintain healthy faith, not a list of dos and don'ts. The dos and don'ts are really more of an indicator of a healthy faith. Yes if you lied you sinned. Not lying is not what saves you..or not sinning is not what saves you. Jesus saves us, by faith IN Jesus. Not sinning can't save you, but sinning willfully without repentance can reverse that, because you are willfully grieving the Spirit of God.

A Person who is walking by faith is grieved with sin and repents. A person who is not saved or on his way to not being saved, does not care anymore and will continue to sin without any thought of repentence

Good post.

People seem to forget that the God we serve who is most gracious on us & we are undeserving of it is the same God who destroyed Sodom & flooded the earth is the same God we serve now.

He hates sin!

LUKE2447
10-28-2008, 02:44 PM
Couldn't agree more! The term liberty also is usually a word used without understanding. As liberty is the ability to sin without it being counted against you much in the same way as grace is used. Paul always contrasted Grace with sin and notice "sin" was still sin whether Grace or no grace! hmmm Shall we continue in "sin" that Grace may abound? hmmm How can a person still sin if "one is not under law"?
As usual people don't understand the terms and make Paul contrary to the rest of the Word of God.


No one is saying Grace and Liberty are licenses to sin. None of us here have acted that way.

Did not say who, but many do that are on this forum not necessarily this thread. Though they may not say that or "agree" that you should sin the end result is the same that one can do such and still be ok to God.

I heard a pastor who is in the UPC say once. That people should not "flaunt"(expose themselves) there liberty around. Trying to draw lustful attention to themselves least to say. Instead of it simply being called sin his mentality was not that the flesh was being sinful but it was liberty. Many have that same mentality and call that Grace. Which in reality it's false doctrine. THat type of mentality has the you shouldn't do that but if you did it's OK we are under GRACE and your salvation is secure.

Praxeas
10-28-2008, 02:46 PM
Good post.

People seem to forget that the God we serve who is most gracious on us & we are undeserving of it is the same God who destroyed Sodom & flooded the earth is the same God we serve now.

He hates sin!
you know, this is true, but consider that it's not so much that God is waiting to destroy us because we sin....rather Sin affects our spiritual creature...sin separates mankind from God. The Saint that continues to sin unrepentant is destroying his own faith...faith is the key to salvation.

In some cases God is directly involved...like sending someone a strong delusion, but in most sinning is to the spiritual like doing hard drugs or hard drinking is to the physical...we are only hurting ourselves

Steve Epley
10-28-2008, 02:48 PM
As much as it displeases the graceless crowd that sees the preacher as the main hindrance to spiritual growth allow me to SHARE what the scriptures teach:

1. "faith cometh by hearing" Rom. 10:17......
a. man is justified by faith Rom. 5:1......
b. we are children of God by faith Gal.3:26......
c. without faith it is impossible to please God.. Heb. 11:6......
d. we overcome by faith 1Jn. 5:4 Now go and weep "HOW SHALL THEY HEAR WITHOUT A PREACHER?" Rom. 10:14The ULTIMATE grace preacher said "... it PLEASED GOD(it doesn't please renegades and rebels) by the foolishness of PREACHING to SAVE them that believe." 1Cor. 1:21 Not theraptists-arm chair referees-educators-attorneys-you get the picture. PREACHING preached by PREACHERS gives faith to be saved and equips saints to continue to be saved.

By the way:

It is NT doctrine about ladies hair 1Cor. 11:1-16

It is NT doctrine that teaches modesty in dress 1Tim. 2:9

It is NT doctrine that teaches against wearing gold 1Tim. 2:9

It is NT doctrine It is NT doctrine that teaches separation from the world 2Cor. 6:19

It is NT doctrine that teaches ministerial authority Heb. 13: 7, 17, 21

Genuine BIBLICAL grace teaches AGAINST doing certain things and do do certain things Titus 2:11-13

Galatians is speaking about circumcission, animal sacrifices, holidays, the ceremonial law. Grace gives NO one liberty to commit adultery-fornication-steal-murder-etc.
See Gal. 5:18-23.

Steve Epley
10-28-2008, 03:12 PM
My post was spaced out I don't know what happened now it is all bunched up can someone help me I don't want to retype it.

freeatlast
10-28-2008, 04:20 PM
My post was spaced out I don't know what happened now it is all bunched up can someone help me I don't want to retype it.

...and I thought it was just you, that was "spaced out" :ursofunny

Pressing-On
10-28-2008, 04:25 PM
Haha, you act surprised!

I heard a preacher make this statement once, and I can't disprove it - it actually makes a lot of sense. He was preaching about the man at the pool who had been lame for 38 years, and had no one to get him to the water when it was troubled.

Anyway, Jesus came along and asked the man if he would be (wanted to be) healed.

This may seem like a silly question, I mean who WOULDN'T want to be healed? But Jesus knew that if He healed the man, the man would have to walk on his own without anyone carrying him - he'd have to get a job and work for a living instead of having people give him money, and a host of other changes would have to happen in his life. In other words, he'd have to become a self-starter!

Makes sense to me!
Yes, that would make sense.

On the other hand, the story can also be told of the man that feels he cannot get up because of any number of things - condemnation, etc., but when Jesus takes your hand - He will lead you to the water and you will find your healing. Sometimes we cannot get up ourselves but then Jesus.......He leaded me beside the still waters, he restored my soul....

mfblume
10-28-2008, 04:26 PM
One always needs accountability in their life tho.

*When Samuel was addressed by God directly, he still went to Eli to verify what he thought God said.

*Even after David was anointed King, he submitted himself to Saul who was King at the time.

*And, when Moses saw a burning bush and heard God speaking, he went back home and asked his father-in-law what he should do.

I agree that we all need to hear from God, but we need someone in our lives who can help us confirm what we're feeling in the Spirit.

That is part of learning to hear from God. Amen to your words. But legalistic preachers are the preachers who tell the saints they will always hear from God for the saints.

mfblume
10-28-2008, 04:32 PM
John Gill gave quite a balanced understanding of 1 Tim 2:9:

Not with broidered hair, or plaited, as in 1Pe_3:3; see Gill on 1Pe_3:3. The Jews had women on purpose for this business; Mary Magdalene is thought to have her name from hence; See Gill on Mat_27:56.

Or gold, or pearls, or costly array: not that the apostle forbids all use or wear of such things by proper persons, whose circumstances would admit of it, and upon proper occasions, and at proper times: certain it is, that earrings and bracelets of gold, and jewels set in silver and gold, and raiment, costly raiment, were sent by Abraham, and given to Rebekah, and wore by her, who was a woman professing godliness so the church in Psa_45:9 though in figurative expressions, yet in allusion to what is literal, and honourable, and commendable, is said to be in gold of Ophir, and her clothing to be of wrought gold, and to be brought to the king in raiment of needlework: but however justifiable such a dress may be at other seasons, the apostle judged it very improper at the time of public prayer, or at the time of public worship; seeing it might swell the heart of the wearer with pride, so as to forget herself and the business she was come about, and draw the eyes of others upon her; and so cause a general inattention. It was a complaint of Chrysostom's many hundreds of years ago, that some who came to public worship, appeared in such a dress, as if they came rather to dance than to pray; such apparel should be avoided: it is said of Pythagoras (o), that he taught the inhabitants of Crotona, the men literature, and the women chastity and modesty; and by his disputations so far prevailed upon the latter, as to lay aside their garments of gold and other ornaments of their dignity, as instruments of luxury; all which they brought into the temple of Juno, and dedicated them to that goddess; declaring, that shamefacedness or chastity, and not garments, are the true ornaments of matrons.


Genesis 24:51-53 Behold, Rebekah is before thee, take her, and go, and let her be thy master's son's wife, as the LORD hath spoken. (52) And it came to pass, that, when Abraham's servant heard their words, he worshipped the LORD, bowing himself to the earth. (53) And the servant brought forth jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment, and gave them to Rebekah: he gave also to her brother and to her mother precious things.


It is not that one should never wear gold, since that would contradict all sorts of scriptures where God said he gave gold to Israel in Ezekiel 16, and Abraham gave jewelry and gold to Rebecca. It is when a person's world is such things that it becomes wrong.

Ezekiel 16:11-13 I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. (12) And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. (13) Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.


God would not do anything nor say anything remotely similar to something He forbids us to do.

So it is error to say people cannot wear any jewelry. It is the error that consistently would cause one to say one should always appear nude.

1 Peter 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;


If people want to refrain that is certainly fine. Not all who refrain from this are legalists, but some are

freeatlast
10-28-2008, 05:30 PM
John Gill gave quite a balanced understanding of 1 Tim 2:9:





It is not that one should never wear gold, since that would contradict all sorts of scriptures where God said he gave gold to Israel in Ezekiel 16, and Abraham gave jewelry and gold to Rebecca. It is when a person's world is such things that it becomes wrong.



God would not do anything nor say anything remotely similar to something He forbids us to do.

So it is error to say people cannot wear any jewelry. It is the error that consistently would cause one to say one should always appear nude.



If people want to refrain that is certainly fine. Not all who refrain from this are legalists, but some are

Good post MFBlume ,thank you

As one who associated with the no weddinring group for over thirty years I find it baffling how blind the eyes can become thru the observance of our vain traditions and the inability of some men to admit they were wrong.

Steve Epley
10-28-2008, 05:39 PM
Good post MFBlume ,thank youAs one who associated with the no weddinring group for over thirty years I find it baffling how blind the eyes can become thru the observance of our vain traditions and the inability of some men to admit they were wrong.I happened to be raised in a wedding ring church and now there is an abundance of jewelry. I do not admit I am wrong about wedding rings because I believe it is the only consistant stand there is on jewelry. ALL or NONE. Doesn't say not MUCH gold it saves NOR gold. I really am NOT trying to turn this into a standard thread though I mentioned it only for the sake of showing how can NT edicts be considered legalism of the law condemned in Galatians?

freeatlast
10-28-2008, 06:05 PM
Not gonna argue wit ya Elder

BTW glad to see ya here...hope you are feeling better from when your back was giving you trouble.

cliff d
10-28-2008, 06:36 PM
Question: Why is it that the hard line legalist is always quick to say..."Bless God, I'm not letting down my holiness standards!" Let me ask you, what holiness standards are you talking about? Your standard of the fruits of the spirit? your standard of forgiveness?
Your standards of compassion and pure thoughts?"

No, usually the term Holiness Standards to them means, we men don't have hair on our ears and we women have exposed pimples! But true holiness is more than a mass of split ends with a bow. Holiness is more about what you say, and how you act and think than simply what you wear. In fact, the terms holiness standard and old fashioned holiness are not found in the Bible. These often have become sectarian code phrases for dress codes that have little to do with Bible holiness. These are modern day indulgences--that
people use as a way to procure their salvation and find favor with God and man.
Instead of circumcision, Neo-Pharisees insist on unnecessary dress codes and rules being added to salvation. It's the same old Acts 15 syndrome.

Ron
10-28-2008, 06:41 PM
Question: Why is it that the hard line legalist is always quick to say..."Bless God, I'm not letting down my holiness standards!" Let me ask you, what holiness standards are you talking about? Your standard of the fruits of the spirit? your standard of forgiveness?
Your standards of compassion and pure thoughts?"

No, usually the term Holiness Standards to them means, we men don't have hair on our ears and we women have exposed pimples! But true holiness is more than a mass of split ends with a bow. Holiness is more about what you say, and how you act and think than simply what you wear. In fact, the terms holiness standard and old fashioned holiness are not found in the Bible. These often have become sectarian code phrases for dress codes that have little to do with Bible holiness. These are modern day indulgences--that
people use as a way to procure their salvation and find favor with God and man.
Instead of circumcision, Neo-Pharisees insist on unnecessary dress codes and rules being added to salvation. It's the same old Acts 15 syndrome.

Agreed that isn't all there is to it, but it does affect every area of our lives including the clothes we wear!

rgcraig
10-28-2008, 06:48 PM
Question: Why is it that the hard line legalist is always quick to say..."Bless God, I'm not letting down my holiness standards!" Let me ask you, what holiness standards are you talking about? Your standard of the fruits of the spirit? your standard of forgiveness?
Your standards of compassion and pure thoughts?"

No, usually the term Holiness Standards to them means, we men don't have hair on our ears and we women have exposed pimples! But true holiness is more than a mass of split ends with a bow. Holiness is more about what you say, and how you act and think than simply what you wear. In fact, the terms holiness standard and old fashioned holiness are not found in the Bible. These often have become sectarian code phrases for dress codes that have little to do with Bible holiness. These are modern day indulgences--that
people use as a way to procure their salvation and find favor with God and man.
Instead of circumcision, Neo-Pharisees insist on unnecessary dress codes and rules being added to salvation. It's the same old Acts 15 syndrome.

Well, here's some new terms to replace CC1's blue denium whales terminology.

cliff d
10-28-2008, 06:51 PM
For some reason some people get the idea that there is something holy about dressing old fashioned. You can live in a modern house, work at a modern job, drive a modern car and go to a modern hospital, but just make sure you dress old fashioned. Then you are holy they think.....I dont get it.

The part of the old fashioned holiness that we still need today is the attitude of selfless
commitment to the Lord that the oldtimers had but not the old fashioned way they dressed.

Mrs. LPW
10-28-2008, 07:41 PM
Well, here's some new terms to replace CC1's blue denium whales terminology.

No, usually the term Holiness Standards to them means, we men don't have hair on our ears and we women have exposed pimples! But true holiness is more than a mass of split ends with a bow.



Renda, I would think you would have more respect than that...

Cliff, my split ends are conditioned, my skin is clear (and for anyone who has issues, there are wonderful products like Proactive on the market) and there is absolutely nothing old-fashioned or 1890's about my wardrobe.

I don't debate or even discuss much what I do and don't do personally, with regards to the outward... on AFF or anywhere else. I live unto the Lord.
But I won't sit back on the AFF forum and read rude comments without standing up and saying something. (well, actually sitting with my legs up on my comfy chair and typing my response)

Renda, you and the others who have used the "blue denim whale" comment, (maybe soon to be replaced with the much more polite "we men don't have hair on our ears and we women have exposed pimples! But true holiness is more than a mass of split ends with a bow" NOT)
should know better.

It's rude. Plain and simple. It's especially rude coming from a Christian.

And to claim that those who keep the "standards" (don't like that term at all) are judging by the outward, and then to turn around and make comments like this, is being downright hypocritical.

cliff d
10-28-2008, 07:52 PM
Mrs.Lpw my comments are not made to offend any one...they are just observations I have made within the Pentacostal/Apostolic movement if you go back and read all of my comments not just one I think it starts around 7 or 8 you will see my true motive.
People who hold to a personal prefrence is wonderful but is wrong for them to try to place a personal conviction on everyone.

cliff d
10-28-2008, 07:56 PM
Actually start at post 4

Mrs. LPW
10-28-2008, 07:59 PM
Mrs.Lpw my comments are not made to offend any one...they are just observations I have made within the Pentacostal/Apostolic movement if you go back and read all of my comments not just one I think it starts around 7 or 8 you will see my true motive.
People who hold to a personal prefrence is wonderful but is wrong for them to try to place a personal conviction on everyone.

I appreciate that you didn't mean to offend. I'm not personally offended, because I don't fit that broadbrush sterotype... There's a whole church full of people in my area alone who don't. A whole district full, in fact.

The Blue Denim Whale comment didn't originate with you, nor did you use it, that is a huge part of my irritation.

I think we would differ on what we believe is personal conviction and what we believe is Biblically based, but I do still get frustrated when people paint those of us who don't cut our hair as having a mess of split ends, those of us who don't wear make up as having pimply faces, those of us who don't wear pants as being blue denim whales.

I think we can have a lot higher level discussion without those sterotypical broadbrushed statements. I feel that strongly.

Your post would honestly have just gotten brushed off, if it weren't for Renda saying we might now have an alternative to the "blue denim whale" comment.

cliff d
10-28-2008, 08:09 PM
My apologies never do I wish to be a stumbling block to anyone.....I just ask please read
all my posts and you might find we have more incommon than you think.

Mrs. LPW
10-28-2008, 08:19 PM
We both put great value on the Grace of God, that is certain Cliff!!!

Again, your post would have likely blipped right by me, had it not been for the other comment made about it.

I do realize that there are people who are shallow in thier walks with God, in every church, standard keeper or otherwise.

cliff d
10-28-2008, 09:14 PM
It should be noted that this extreme sectarian focus on outward standards was not a part of the original Apostolic movement in the book of Acts nor does it seem to be a part of the original Pentecostal organizations. Organizational unity was centered around the Apostolic doctrines of the book of Acts and not standards. Although they had holiness standards at the local level in the days of Howard Goss and A.D. Gurley, "dress codes" were not the bulwark of the movement as some would believe. In comparing the dress of the church of that day and society in general, one cannot see radical differences.
Most all of the women in the world wore their dresses and hair long. Even many women movie stars of that era, wore long hair and long dresses. So what distinguished the early modern day Pentecostal churches?

The Pentecostal movement of the early 1900's was known predominately for the various peculiarities that accompanied the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and speaking with other tongues.
This was the foremost bulwark that unified and identified the early modern day Pentecostal church.

mfblume
10-28-2008, 09:30 PM
Agreed that isn't all there is to it, but it does affect every area of our lives including the clothes we wear!

My good Canadian compatriot, why is it, though, that clothing is always emphasized the most and is the first thing folks think of when "holiness" is mentioned? Something is wrong when clothing is the first thing people think of when holiness is mentioned. Imagine reading all the verses in the bible that mention holiness, and think about clothes. I mean, think of it -- CLOTHING?

Sherri
10-28-2008, 10:03 PM
My good Canadian compatriot, why is it, though, that clothing is always emphasized the most and is the first thing folks think of when "holiness" is mentioned? Something is wrong when clothing is the first thing people think of when holiness is mentioned. Imagine reading all the verses in the bible that mention holiness, and think about clothes. I mean, think of it -- CLOTHING?That's exactly what we thought of when we read those verses. Holiness and the way you look were one and the same in my mind.

Rhoni
10-29-2008, 06:21 AM
This morning I read more of the New Testament scriptures in regard to Grace & Legalism and this is what I found:

Hebrews 7:11: If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood [for on the basis of it the law was given to the people], why was there still need for another priest to come? - one on the order of Melchizaek, not in the order of Aaron? For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar.

17-18: For ti si declared [of Jesus Christ] "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizadek". The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless [for the law made nothign perfect] and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
24: but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

26: Such a High Priest meets our need - one who is holy, blameless, pure, set aprat from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once and for all when he offerred himself. For the law appoints high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after teh law, appointed the Son, who has been made forever perfect.

Hebrews 9: 7: For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

Hebrews 9:13: By calling this covenant "new" he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

__________

James 2: 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking it all.

James 2: 12: Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

Jermyn Davidson
10-29-2008, 09:26 AM
26: Such a High Priest meets our need - one who is holy, blameless, pure, set aprat from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once and for all when he offerred himself. For the law appoints high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after teh law, appointed the Son, who has been made forever perfect.


This is why my salvation is "complete in Him."

I am not more saved once I evolve into being clean shaven.
I am not more saved once I throw away my shorts.

Doing these things can help me with my daily walk with the Lord in the way that there is a Holy commitment involved, if I do these things to honor the Lord.

The minute the intent of my heart becomes to preserve my salvation or to please others by doing these things, my commitment is vain religiosity.

The UPCI churches I've attended make it impossible to do these things for the sole reason of honoring the Lord because it is expected and often mandated-- violating the Spirit of Grace by which we have been called.

cliff d
10-29-2008, 10:24 AM
Rhoni I found this quote in a book published by Bridge Publishing called Azusa Street Frank Bartleman on page 18:

My concern was chiefly for the Holiness people, that they might not be passed by, and lose the blessing. I wrote in my diary at this time the following observations( a warning to the Pentecostal people ):
The Holiness people are loaded down to the waters edge with a spirit of prejudice and phariseeism. But dare we cut ourselves off so easily from other members of the body? We may cut ourselves off from God by our spiritual pride, while He may cause the weakest to repent, and go through to victory. The work in our hearts must go deeper than we ever have experienced, deep enough to destroy sectarian prejudice, party spirit,
etc.,on all sides.
The work of revival seems to have started outside the Holiness churches proper. God can perfect those whom he chooses. The Holiness people are to proud of their standing.
Too confident of their position, and condition also. He may need to pass them by.
They must also repent. God may humble them by working in other places. And history repeats itself. Let the Pentecostal people beware.

Rhoni
10-29-2008, 10:24 AM
26: Such a High Priest meets our need - one who is holy, blameless, pure, set aprat from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once and for all when he offerred himself. For the law appoints high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after teh law, appointed the Son, who has been made forever perfect.


This is why my salvation is "complete in Him."

I am not more saved once I evolve into being clean shaven.
I am not more saved once I throw away my shorts.

Dong these things can help me with my daily walk with the Lord in the way that there is a Holy commitment involved, if I do these things to honor the Lord.

The minute the intent of my heart becomes to preserve my salvation or to please others by doing these things, my commitment is vain religiosity.

The UPCI churches I've attended make it impossible to do these things for the sole reason of honoring the Lord because it is expected and often mandated-- violating the Spirit of Grace by which we have been called.

Yes, I agree and it even goes deeper than that. The one minister who made the difference in my adult life was Rev. LW Schmidt[now deceased]. We worked under him as "Interns" from JCM. He told me what he desired as far as an active deaf ministry and then set me loose with no limitations to do what I felt needed to be done. He trusted my walk with God, my expertise in the matter, and he respected my opinions. I gave him exactly what he wanted, a self-supporting, active deaf ministry with deaf people attending and filled with the Holy Ghost.

This was the only leadership male that did not try to control, manipulate, and squash me into "SUBMISSION". He let me function in the area of my passion without making conditions to do other things in order to function in my passion. He could have wrote the book that Warren wrote about empowering people to work in the area of their passion. UPCI only let you work in the area of your passion if you would "submit" to cleaning toilets and working center of interest first. Control and manipulation is what the law was all about to the Pharisees. Women's clothing was not the only area of control exerted upon females in leadership.

Blessings, Rhoni

cliff d
10-29-2008, 10:27 AM
This is a very telling and applicable message for many in the Pentecostal church today.

Jack Shephard
10-29-2008, 10:37 AM
Does the Pentecostal church as a whole miss the mark on teaching about grace? I haven't heard it preached much in the chuch except towards the sinners. "God's Grace will cover any sin you have"...but the saints live in fear or losing their salvation. Does that make sense?

cliff d
10-29-2008, 10:48 AM
Most pastors are afraid to preach it for fear their saints will go off the deep end.

iceniez
10-29-2008, 10:57 AM
Most pastors are afraid to preach it for fear their saints will go off the deep end.

That is so true. Then they would loose control of their people. Another reason could be that they them selves have not really understood it themselves the whole movement has become so traditionalized and for generations it has been handed down.

Jack Shephard
10-29-2008, 10:57 AM
Most pastors are afraid to preach it for fear their saints will go off the deep end.

Rightly so, but there is a balance in the teaching to. If the pastor were to preach it correctly though the saints would clearly know that Grace is not a license to sin and get away with it.

iceniez
10-29-2008, 10:58 AM
Rightly so, but there is a balance in the teaching to. If the pastor were to preach it correctly though the saints would clearly know that Grace is not a license to sin and get away with it.

Amen.

Jermyn Davidson
10-29-2008, 11:05 AM
Does the Pentecostal church as a whole miss the mark on teaching about grace? I haven't heard it preached much in the chuch except towards the sinners. "God's Grace will cover any sin you have"...but the saints live in fear or losing their salvation. Does that make sense?

I don't believe Bible teaches OSAS, but I've experienced preaching and teaching that goes to the the extreme in the other direction.

The Bible teaches us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

The Bible teaches us that we are not to have the spirit of fear.

The Bible teaches a whole lot about faith.

Somewhere in all of that we have to live a life of Biblical balance.

Jack Shephard
10-29-2008, 11:08 AM
I don't believe Bible teaches OSAS, but I've experienced preaching and teaching that goes to the the extreme in the other direction.

The Bible teaches us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

The Bible teaches us that we are not to have the spirit of fear.

The Bible teaches a whole lot about faith.

Somewhere in all of that we have to live a life of Biblical balance.

Agreed. . . Not sure but I don't think that any one stepper on here really believes OSAS. I don't.

Withdrawn
10-29-2008, 11:09 AM
Does the Pentecostal church as a whole miss the mark on teaching about grace? I haven't heard it preached much in the chuch except towards the sinners. "God's Grace will cover any sin you have"...but the saints live in fear or losing their salvation. Does that make sense?

I attended a ALJC/UPCI church for 22 years and can't remember ONE message preached about the grace of God. Sure it was mentioned here and there, but I must say it appears to have been methodically avoided. I think that the responses here characterize what I think the reasons are as well. I think either pastors just don't have a grip on what God's grace really is and how it applies to the church, or they're afraid of losing control of the people. Actually, I think it's a blend of both, with the reason that they don't seek out an understanding is because they would rather control. Sounds harsh, I know.

Neck
10-29-2008, 11:15 AM
Grace is NOT God's septic tank that catches all our trash.
Grace gives victory over sin.

LEGALISM IS NOT OBEYING WHAT IS COMMANDED IN THE NEW COVENANT THAT IS GRACE WITHIN ITSELF.

Grace is what covers sin after you have received the promise and repent again for those sins.

Legalism does not cover sin it creates an ability for man to punish what man legislates as sin.

Jack Shephard
10-29-2008, 11:17 AM
I attended a ALJC/UPCI church for 22 years and can't remember ONE message preached about the grace of God. Sure it was mentioned here and there, but I must say it appears to have been methodically avoided. I think that the responses here characterize what I think the reasons are as well. I think either pastors just don't have a grip on what God's grace really is and how it applies to the church, or they're afraid of losing control of the people. Actually, I think it's a blend of both, with the reason that they don't seek out an understanding is because they would rather control. Sounds harsh, I know.

This might sound harsh as well, but here goes. I think that most pastors have a fair grip on what grace is, but only use it when cases come up where they need it. It also could be a thing the keep secret to keep control on saints or it might come down to they are not sure how to balance teaching on Grace with teachings on submission to authority (cause that is the candy stick they preach on).

With real Grace in the picture it can blow a hole in the 3-steppers mode of salvation. But even still I think a great disservice is being done. People live in fear cause they are scared of God striking them down for something when if they knew that Grace really exists (after salvation too) that allows them to repent and be free from it. Grace is one of the greatest messages in the Bible and the least preached in our circles.

**Disclaimer**
My church is pretty balanced when it comes to this, I feel.

Fiyahstarter
10-29-2008, 11:19 AM
This is why my salvation is "complete in Him."

I am not more saved once I evolve into being clean shaven.
I am not more saved once I throw away my shorts.

Doing these things can help me with my daily walk with the Lord in the way that there is a Holy commitment involved, if I do these things to honor the Lord.

The minute the intent of my heart becomes to preserve my salvation or to please others by doing these things, my commitment is vain religiosity.

The UPCI churches I've attended make it impossible to do these things for the sole reason of honoring the Lord because it is expected and often mandated-- violating the Spirit of Grace by which we have been called.

Well spoken. I back these thoughts.

Neck
10-29-2008, 11:22 AM
I attended a ALJC/UPCI church for 22 years and can't remember ONE message preached about the grace of God. Sure it was mentioned here and there, but I must say it appears to have been methodically avoided. I think that the responses here characterize what I think the reasons are as well. I think either pastors just don't have a grip on what God's grace really is and how it applies to the church, or they're afraid of losing control of the people. Actually, I think it's a blend of both, with the reason that they don't seek out an understanding is because they would rather control. Sounds harsh, I know.

If Grace were preached and taught in the UPCI legalistic churches, then when a woman were to cut her hair.

Then repent...They would have to put her back into the choir the moment she repented for cutting her hair.

But because the other local ministers within a district would notice these women with cut hair.

The pastors chose not to preach or teach the Grace of God.

They chose to preach it is a sin.. (What without repentance?)

It is not only about show me your walk with God by how you look and measure to my contentious standards.

It is about how their church looks to the other churches in the district.

It these men were to punish real sin the way they punish the standards list, we would all be looking at a video screen each Sunday.

Because no one would be worthy to preach, sing, take up an offering or teach a class.

It is all about looks period......

Fiyahstarter
10-29-2008, 11:22 AM
Does the Pentecostal church as a whole miss the mark on teaching about grace?

I'll have to go with a big "YES" on this one. And they miss the mark on LOVE too.

KWSS1976
10-29-2008, 11:31 AM
Same here just heard romans preached the other day I believe since the 3 years I have been at this church i attend. I almost fell out of my seat and the way it was talked about it almost sounded like gods grace is good enough no repenting. baptism,holyghost....etc,etc

Michael The Disciple
10-29-2008, 12:08 PM
Grace is not like most seem to think one locked in concept. The Greek word "Charis" means "favor". We must go from there. How does the Biblical writer use the word?

The concept we hold cannot disagree with the actual teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. Most teaching I know of about it does that very thing.

Rhoni
10-29-2008, 12:23 PM
Does the Pentecostal church as a whole miss the mark on teaching about grace? I haven't heard it preached much in the chuch except towards the sinners. "God's Grace will cover any sin you have"...but the saints live in fear or losing their salvation. Does that make sense?

A friend and I were talking this past week about this very thing. The fact is...a sinner who is a whore or pedophile can walk in off the street and get the Holy Ghost and they put modest clothing on them, rejoice and use them freely. You let a saint "who should have known better" slip and fall, make a mistake or sin and you are forever damned to "prove yourself" and even then - you are not worthy to be used. This is not just about me that I am talking...the discussion was done with another leadership person who was dealt the same hand and is the one who stated the above dilemna.

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni
10-29-2008, 12:23 PM
I attended a ALJC/UPCI church for 22 years and can't remember ONE message preached about the grace of God. Sure it was mentioned here and there, but I must say it appears to have been methodically avoided. I think that the responses here characterize what I think the reasons are as well. I think either pastors just don't have a grip on what God's grace really is and how it applies to the church, or they're afraid of losing control of the people. Actually, I think it's a blend of both, with the reason that they don't seek out an understanding is because they would rather control. Sounds harsh, I know.

There is that word again "CONTROL":whistle

Rhoni
10-29-2008, 12:24 PM
Grace is what covers sin after you have received the promise and repent again for those sins.

Legalism does not cover sin it creates an ability for man to punish what man legislates as sin.

:friend POTD

Rhoni
10-29-2008, 12:29 PM
This might sound harsh as well, but here goes. I think that most pastors have a fair grip on what grace is, but only use it when cases come up where they need it. It also could be a thing the keep secret to keep control on saints or it might come down to they are not sure how to balance teaching on Grace with teachings on submission to authority (cause that is the candy stick they preach on).

With real Grace in the picture it can blow a hole in the 3-steppers mode of salvation. But even still I think a great disservice is being done. People live in fear cause they are scared of God striking them down for something when if they knew that Grace really exists (after salvation too) that allows them to repent and be free from it. Grace is one of the greatest messages in the Bible and the least preached in our circles.

**Disclaimer**
My church is pretty balanced when it comes to this, I feel.


Most of what I learned about grace was from an AOG church and Indiana Wesleyan University professors who taught it and gave me books to read on Max Lucado teachings on the subject.

You are right...they lose "control" of their saints...not God's saints:):friend

Blessings, Rhoni

Jack Shephard
10-29-2008, 01:04 PM
A friend and I were talking this past week about this very thing. The fact is...a sinner who is a whore or pedophile can walk in off the street and get the Holy Ghost and they put modest clothing on them, rejoice and use them freely. You let a saint "who should have known better" slip and fall, make a mistake or sin and you are forever damned to "prove yourself" and even then - you are not worthy to be used. This is not just about me that I am talking...the discussion was done with another leadership person who was dealt the same hand and is the one who stated the above dilemna.

Blessings, Rhoni

This is funny. This does happen all too often. I know that there are churches out there that will not use someone unless you have been in church for more than 6 months. Also if you fall you have to wait 1 year. So it is a weird situation. I am of the mind that if a season saint falls they know what they are doing is wrong so often times the conviction is greater. If a person loses their awe of God then it can cause them to fall and no length of time is appropriate to wait before returning to a ministry. The lose of awe can happen to seasoned saints and infant saints too. Stay in awe and a person probably won't fall and if they do they will have conviction set it and they will make it right, at least this is what I have seen.

Withdrawn
10-29-2008, 01:15 PM
This is funny. This does happen all too often. I know that there are churches out there that will not use someone unless you have been in church for more than 6 months. Also if you fall you have to wait 1 year. So it is a weird situation. I am of the mind that if a season saint falls they know what they are doing is wrong so often times the conviction is greater. If a person loses their awe of God then it can cause them to fall and no length of time is appropriate to wait before returning to a ministry. The lose of awe can happen to seasoned saints and infant saints too. Stay in awe and a person probably won't fall and if they do they will have conviction set it and they will make it right, at least this is what I have seen.

Explain "FALL" for me, please!

Does "fall" mean letting one of the standards down for a time (like wearing shorts on vacation)? Is that what we're talking about? Or is it a matter of the heart, whereby a man may from the outside appear to be holding to all the standards, but in secret he's addicted to internet pornography? In the second instance, how would anyone ever know if the clothesline is still in place? There are no degrees of sinful behavior. And if we start saying that such and such is a punishable offense and you should be sat down for such and such time, then we're putting degrees on it. I understand that we don't want a drunkard or a pervert leading the choir or preaching (or whatever), but those are more lifestyle issues that point to a deeper spiritual problem. But trimming hair, wearing tennis shoes, stuff like this is ridiculous! IMHO.

Jack Shephard
10-29-2008, 01:37 PM
Explain "FALL" for me, please!

Does "fall" mean letting one of the standards down for a time (like wearing shorts on vacation)? Is that what we're talking about? Or is it a matter of the heart, whereby a man may from the outside appear to be holding to all the standards, but in secret he's addicted to internet pornography? In the second instance, how would anyone ever know if the clothesline is still in place? There are no degrees of sinful behavior. And if we start saying that such and such is a punishable offense and you should be sat down for such and such time, then we're putting degrees on it. I understand that we don't want a drunkard or a pervert leading the choir or preaching (or whatever), but those are more lifestyle issues that point to a deeper spiritual problem. But trimming hair, wearing tennis shoes, stuff like this is ridiculous! IMHO.


If a mature falls into a sexual or lifestyle sin then there are bigger issues as you have said. That is nothing that should be looked over lightly. The latter where if they cut hair and such are not sins but in the perception of those that see it that way there should be some repent period I would guess. My point was that if a saint sins period most times they fell real conviction and change, but a habitual offender is different IMO cause it has now become a lifestyle issue. Make sense?

Steve Epley
10-29-2008, 01:39 PM
I feel your pain to have been so mistreated by heartless dictators. I lady of the mindset of posters here told me once you are like Paul you hate women. I thought at least I am in good company.:whistle

Jack Shephard
10-29-2008, 01:50 PM
I feel your pain to have been so mistreated by heartless dictators. I lady of the mindset of posters here told me once you are like Paul you hate women. I thought at least I am in good company.:whistle

you talking to me?

Steve Epley
10-29-2008, 03:54 PM
you talking to me?

I don't know am I????????????????????:tease

Jack Shephard
10-29-2008, 04:01 PM
I don't know am I????????????????????:tease

Hope you aren't cause you didn't make much sense to me. I certainly don't hate women think they are great preachers

Steve Epley
10-29-2008, 04:03 PM
Hope you aren't cause you didn't make much sense to me. I certainly don't hate women think they are great preachers

I am certainly happy for you. Send Bernice Hicks a offering.

clgustaveson
10-29-2008, 04:40 PM
Dumb verse Thread...?

Jermyn Davidson
10-29-2008, 04:50 PM
If a mature falls into a sexual or lifestyle sin then there are bigger issues as you have said. That is nothing that should be looked over lightly. The latter where if they cut hair and such are not sins but in the perception of those that see it that way there should be some repent period I would guess. My point was that if a saint sins period most times they fell real conviction and change, but a habitual offender is different IMO cause it has now become a lifestyle issue. Make sense?


Does the concept of "Grace" applies to such a Christian?

Is he/she still a Christian?

What would have to happen for one to be considered a reprobate?

Rhoni
10-29-2008, 05:46 PM
Does the concept of "Grace" applies to such a Christian?

Is he/she still a Christian?

What would have to happen for one to be considered a reprobate?

The Bible tells us a reprobate will believe a lie and be damned. The lie may possibly be that they believe they are justified in their sin or they don't recognize right and wrong. Psychopaths or Anti-social personality disorders would fit the description.

Blessings,
Rhoni

cliff d
10-29-2008, 10:05 PM
Neo-Pharisees reject faith living because they love law. Instead of receiving the free gift of grace, they feel compelled to go to religious law school and after graduation they feel they can negotiate a legal relationship between themselves and God and also everyone else and God. Like a flashback to Acts 15, they encircle legalistic laws and yokes in the mandatory for salvation classification and harshly lay them upon the people of God.
They are proud and presume themselves to be experts in interpreting Biblical scriptures that are obscure and difficult to understand.

They can pull isolated scriptures from the Old Testament and even though they cannot find precept upon precept and line upon line to support their interpretations they insist that everyone should accept their superior decoding of all these scriptures.

With this kind of flawed exegesis they erect major doctrines that serve as criterion for fellowship. They seem to feel solely qualified to cross every t and dot every i for every pastor, teacher and saint, even on scriptures that are relative and broad in principle only.

cliff d
10-30-2008, 06:34 AM
Neo-Pharisees truly believe that all prophecy or revelations of the scripture is for their private interpretations notwithstanding what the Apostle Peter said in II Peter 1:20-" knowing this first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

But after they are finished adding several reams of their own interpretations, no scripture is seen through a glass darkly, and nothing is known to them in part. Issues that are of minor consequence become major enough to the Neo-Pharisee that he feels it
his responsibility to disfellowship those that differ and designate these people as lost.

I'm not talking about important salvational issues that surround the death, burial and resurrection (repentance, baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost ), but rather I'm referring to scriptures that relate to things like dress standards. Unfortunately, these kinds of nonessential items become the nucleus of their legal theology.

Jack Shephard
10-30-2008, 08:36 AM
Does the concept of "Grace" applies to such a Christian?

Is he/she still a Christian?

What would have to happen for one to be considered a reprobate?

Christian is to be like Christ. When a person sins they are not like Christ until they repent and realign themselves with Him. To be a reprobate in my opinion is when you have made the choice to NOT turn back to Christ for forgivness, thus making the lifestyle change.

LUKE2447
10-30-2008, 09:04 AM
Most of what I learned about grace was from an AOG church and Indiana Wesleyan University professors who taught it and gave me books to read on Max Lucado teachings on the subject.

You are right...they lose "control" of their saints...not God's saints:):friend

Blessings, Rhoni

Oh boy! Least to say Max is not one of my favorites in this area. His view on Grace is well..... bad!

mfblume
10-30-2008, 09:18 AM
The blood of Jesus is the embodiment of grace. It encapsulates the entire concept in the Bible.

Blood in the body is life and out of the body is death. So when Christ shed His blood it is the picture of death. What is so great about His death is that it was the result of His perfect and full obedience. He was obedient EVEN UNTO DEATH. And this makes the blood so ultimately precious.

Hebrews teaches that Christ entered into Heaven BY THAT BLOOD. in other words, reference to BY THE BLOOD means everything to do with His obedience and ultimate sacrifice. It is what made Him worthy as "Son of God". And that ultimate worthiness is given TO US that we might likewise ENTER into the holiest by this new and living way of Christ, Himself, as our door.

Legalism detracts from the grace God bestowed through the means of the blood of Jesus. While people seek to experience "Sunday go to meeting," they instead receive "Sunday go to BEATING" and get hammered for what they do not do enough of. Legalistic circles harp and rant on doing or not doing. And the people are not directed towards the work Christ did FOR THEM, but what they are not doing enough. So they leave thinking they are not as holy and righteous as they thought they were.

Meanwhile, circles that teach grace properly do not leave people with the impression they are not good enough due to lack of works, but leave them thinking they are MORE HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS than they thought they were, because it is Christ's holiness and righteousness they have received THROUGH THE BLOOD. While they've been beating themselves down due to thinking they are not DOING enough, the blood of Jesus has made them worthy all the while!

John the revelator sees no one worthy to go to the throne and take the sealed book. Then the lamb of God appears, and walks to the throne as the ONLY WORTHY ONE, and take the book. After this lamb is praised for redeeming man thereby, Rev 6 starts with one of the beasts calling John TO COME TO THE THRONE AND SEE THE BOOK. John walks up to the throne when formerly no one was able to go due to unworthiness. What happened between the inability of anyone to go and then John's walk to the throne? THE LAMB RESURRECTED AND REDEEMED THEM.

The worthiness of the lamb was given to John!

This does not condone sin as though people can sin and claim God's holiness. But if one sins and truly and genuinely repents, one has all that taken care of by the blood and they are as worthy as Christ! This needs to be preached and taught to souls who have been beaten down by themselves and by legalists as to not DOING ENOUGH.

The ministry may be encouraging more good works, which is good, but unless it is balanced with the understanding of our righteous STANDING with God through the blood, people will automatically think of legalistic lifestyles to please God. This happens sometimes when the ministry is not legalistic but has not taught grace properly! Non-legalistic ministries can leave people as legalists due to only ministering one side of the coin of maintaining good works. We have to preach about our righteousness through Christ by the blood to avoid this. Yes, preach the need to maintain good works, but also ensure we teach what the blood did and what we cannot do -- make us righteous and holy.

Withdrawn
10-30-2008, 10:53 AM
The blood of Jesus is the embodiment of grace. It encapsulates the entire concept in the Bible.

Blood in the body is life and out of the body is death. So when Christ shed His blood it is the picture of death. What is so great about His death is that it was the result of His perfect and full obedience. He was obedient EVEN UNTO DEATH. And this makes the blood so ultimately precious.

Hebrews teaches that Christ entered into Heaven BY THAT BLOOD. in other words, reference to BY THE BLOOD means everything to do with His obedience and ultimate sacrifice. It is what made Him worthy as "Son of God". And that ultimate worthiness is given TO US that we might likewise ENTER into the holiest by this new and living way of Christ, Himself, as our door.

Legalism detracts from the grace God bestowed through the means of the blood of Jesus. While people seek to experience "Sunday go to meeting," they instead receive "Sunday go to BEATING" and get hammered for what they do not do enough of. Legalistic circles harp and rant on doing or not doing. And the people are not directed towards the work Christ did FOR THEM, but what they are not doing enough. So they leave thinking they are not as holy and righteous as they thought they were.

Meanwhile, circles that teach grace properly do not leave people with the impression they are not good enough due to lack of works, but leave them thinking they are MORE HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS than they thought they were, because it is Christ's holiness and righteousness they have received THROUGH THE BLOOD. While they've been beating themselves down due to thinking they are not DOING enough, the blood of Jesus has made them worthy all the while!

John the revelator sees no one worthy to go to the throne and take the sealed book. Then the lamb of God appears, and walks to the throne as the ONLY WORTHY ONE, and take the book. After this lamb is praised for redeeming man thereby, Rev 6 starts with one of the beasts calling John TO COME TO THE THRONE AND SEE THE BOOK. John walks up to the throne when formerly no one was able to go due to unworthiness. What happened between the inability of anyone to go and then John's walk to the throne? THE LAMB RESURRECTED AND REDEEMED THEM.

The worthiness of the lamb was given to John!

This does not condone sin as though people can sin and claim God's holiness. But if one sins and truly and genuinely repents, one has all that taken care of by the blood and they are as worthy as Christ! This needs to be preached and taught to souls who have been beaten down by themselves and by legalists as to not DOING ENOUGH.

The ministry may be encouraging more good works, which is good, but unless it is balanced with the understanding of our righteous STANDING with God through the blood, people will automatically think of legalistic lifestyles to please God. This happens sometimes when the ministry is not legalistic but has not taught grace properly! Non-legalistic ministries can leave people as legalists due to only ministering one side of the coin of maintaining good works. We have to preach about our righteousness through Christ by the blood to avoid this. Yes, preach the need to maintain good works, but also ensure we teach what the blood did and what we cannot do -- make us righteous and holy.

WOW! Thank you for this awesome post! It made my day, and I truly felt the presence of the Holy Ghost as I read this. He confirmed this word in my spirit.

I'm going to bookmark this page, as I feel this is something I'm going to be referring back to often.

Thank you, Bro. Blume!
:friend

Rhoni
10-30-2008, 11:33 AM
The blood of Jesus is the embodiment of grace. It encapsulates the entire concept in the Bible.

Blood in the body is life and out of the body is death. So when Christ shed His blood it is the picture of death. What is so great about His death is that it was the result of His perfect and full obedience. He was obedient EVEN UNTO DEATH. And this makes the blood so ultimately precious.

Hebrews teaches that Christ entered into Heaven BY THAT BLOOD. in other words, reference to BY THE BLOOD means everything to do with His obedience and ultimate sacrifice. It is what made Him worthy as "Son of God". And that ultimate worthiness is given TO US that we might likewise ENTER into the holiest by this new and living way of Christ, Himself, as our door.

Legalism detracts from the grace God bestowed through the means of the blood of Jesus. While people seek to experience "Sunday go to meeting," they instead receive "Sunday go to BEATING" and get hammered for what they do not do enough of. Legalistic circles harp and rant on doing or not doing. And the people are not directed towards the work Christ did FOR THEM, but what they are not doing enough. So they leave thinking they are not as holy and righteous as they thought they were.

Meanwhile, circles that teach grace properly do not leave people with the impression they are not good enough due to lack of works, but leave them thinking they are MORE HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS than they thought they were, because it is Christ's holiness and righteousness they have received THROUGH THE BLOOD. While they've been beating themselves down due to thinking they are not DOING enough, the blood of Jesus has made them worthy all the while!

John the revelator sees no one worthy to go to the throne and take the sealed book. Then the lamb of God appears, and walks to the throne as the ONLY WORTHY ONE, and take the book. After this lamb is praised for redeeming man thereby, Rev 6 starts with one of the beasts calling John TO COME TO THE THRONE AND SEE THE BOOK. John walks up to the throne when formerly no one was able to go due to unworthiness. What happened between the inability of anyone to go and then John's walk to the throne? THE LAMB RESURRECTED AND REDEEMED THEM.

The worthiness of the lamb was given to John!

This does not condone sin as though people can sin and claim God's holiness. But if one sins and truly and genuinely repents, one has all that taken care of by the blood and they are as worthy as Christ! This needs to be preached and taught to souls who have been beaten down by themselves and by legalists as to not DOING ENOUGH.

The ministry may be encouraging more good works, which is good, but unless it is balanced with the understanding of our righteous STANDING with God through the blood, people will automatically think of legalistic lifestyles to please God. This happens sometimes when the ministry is not legalistic but has not taught grace properly! Non-legalistic ministries can leave people as legalists due to only ministering one side of the coin of maintaining good works. We have to preach about our righteousness through Christ by the blood to avoid this. Yes, preach the need to maintain good works, but also ensure we teach what the blood did and what we cannot do -- make us righteous and holy.
:friendAwesome. Thank you.

Blessings, Rhoni

mfblume
10-30-2008, 12:13 PM
That's exactly what we thought of when we read those verses. Holiness and the way you look were one and the same in my mind.

Its really ridiculous, isn't it?

"Be ye holy, for I am holy." Okay, how do you dress, God?

Rhoni
10-30-2008, 01:12 PM
Its really ridiculous, isn't it?

"Be ye holy, for I am holy." Okay, how do you dress, God?

:ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny:friend

mfblume
10-30-2008, 02:42 PM
Someone needs to make a little cartoon of that and put it in the bulletin.

stmatthew
10-30-2008, 08:54 PM
I think one issue that needs to be addressed here is that Grace is not Lawlessness. Grace is only in effect in ones life as they yield to the Spirit and allow the Law of the Spirit to work its work in their heart. And we cannot take away the importance of the hearing of the Word of God either. God has placed leaders over the flock to use the Word of God to preach sound doctrine, reprove, bring correction, and instruct the saint in the ways of righteousness. The balance to this discussion is that Grace without the Word of God is not Grace at all. Grace instructs the receiver to separate themselves from worldliness and unrighteousness, and live righteous and sober. Those that continue to love this present world with its "things" do not possess Grace.

Scott Hutchinson
10-30-2008, 09:04 PM
Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness,so we if abide in grace,our lifestyle will refelect the Holiness Of God,because grace is a Holy gift of God.
A result of true regeneration is sanctification.

mfblume
10-30-2008, 09:26 PM
Something is very interesting in the thought of grace versus legalism. Galatians 5 is in the midst of Paul's rebuttal against the Galatian believers' desire to incorporate Judaic Law into the Christianity. Paul said that following Law does not deal with the flesh and its inclinations towards wrong. The Galatians were soon biting one another, and were in danger of Devouring one another! This is a commonality amongst legalists. Fussing and fighting. This is much like the dilemma of trying to do good by law-keeping, but finding oneself doing evil instead, in Romans 7.

The same goals that law tried to achieve in man are accomplished through grace! If we are led by the Spirit, through reliance upon the Spirit and not reliance upon self effort, we shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh! And we will not see flesh rise up and damage each other, which is so common amongst legalists.

No law is against the fruit of the Spirit which Spirit-leading provides. Spirit leading is the walk of grace. If people claim to be Spirit-led and living in grace, but sin and smite others they are liars.

BY THEIR FRUITS YOU SHALL KNOW THEM. :)

meBNme
10-30-2008, 11:56 PM
Ron, Last time I checked...Pastors were people/sheep and they are also 'dumb' as you call it. Jesus is the Sheperd and not the Pastor. The pastor's job is to feed the sheep not kill them.

You have to let new converts observe and learn you should allow the spirit of God to convict. God does not need a saints help to address modesty with new converts...unless they ask. If you address it before God does then they are not going to own the conviction they will be assimilating into Apostolic culture...and it won't last.

Blessings, Rhoni

This is one I certainly agree with.
I also strongly believe that the Bible requires a standard in our lives, and it is sin not to follow it.

meBNme
10-31-2008, 12:03 AM
Also, legalists usually do not know what legalism is. Grace is where God empowers us to change and legalism is where we do it through human energy without dependence upon God's power whatsoever.

Agreed, but the fine line many people don't (or won't) see, is that while changing through human energy without dependence on Gods power is a recipe for failure, it does not eliminate the absolute necessity for change.

Some folks think that "Since I shouldn't be a certain way simply because of mans teachings, that means I don't have to pay heed to any of it at all."
Regardless of the fact that sometimes, some of the teachings are purely biblical.
No, not all maybe, but those that are only teachings do not discount the ones that have biblical basis.

meBNme
10-31-2008, 12:07 AM
Amen. The attitude is "God's grace isn't really enough, we'll have to restrain them by giving them a code of conduct or rule book." The rule book is the Bible, and the tutor is the Holy Ghost.

But what if.... what if some of those codes of conduct, some of those rules, really ARE reflections of what the bible teaches is the will of God in our lives?

What then?

meBNme
10-31-2008, 12:16 AM
As much as it displeases the graceless crowd that sees the preacher as the main hindrance to spiritual growth allow me to SHARE what the scriptures teach:

1. "faith cometh by hearing" Rom. 10:17......
a. man is justified by faith Rom. 5:1......
b. we are children of God by faith Gal.3:26......
c. without faith it is impossible to please God.. Heb. 11:6......
d. we overcome by faith 1Jn. 5:4 Now go and weep "HOW SHALL THEY HEAR WITHOUT A PREACHER?" Rom. 10:14The ULTIMATE grace preacher said "... it PLEASED GOD(it doesn't please renegades and rebels) by the foolishness of PREACHING to SAVE them that believe." 1Cor. 1:21 Not theraptists-arm chair referees-educators-attorneys-you get the picture. PREACHING preached by PREACHERS gives faith to be saved and equips saints to continue to be saved.

By the way:

It is NT doctrine about ladies hair 1Cor. 11:1-16

It is NT doctrine that teaches modesty in dress 1Tim. 2:9

It is NT doctrine that teaches against wearing gold 1Tim. 2:9

It is NT doctrine It is NT doctrine that teaches separation from the world 2Cor. 6:19

It is NT doctrine that teaches ministerial authority Heb. 13: 7, 17, 21

Genuine BIBLICAL grace teaches AGAINST doing certain things and do do certain things Titus 2:11-13

Galatians is speaking about circumcission, animal sacrifices, holidays, the ceremonial law. Grace gives NO one liberty to commit adultery-fornication-steal-murder-etc.
See Gal. 5:18-23.

Very good, thank you for that.

meBNme
10-31-2008, 12:26 AM
Renda, I would think you would have more respect than that...

Cliff, my split ends are conditioned, my skin is clear (and for anyone who has issues, there are wonderful products like Proactive on the market) and there is absolutely nothing old-fashioned or 1890's about my wardrobe.

I don't debate or even discuss much what I do and don't do personally, with regards to the outward... on AFF or anywhere else. I live unto the Lord.
But I won't sit back on the AFF forum and read rude comments without standing up and saying something. (well, actually sitting with my legs up on my comfy chair and typing my response)

Renda, you and the others who have used the "blue denim whale" comment, (maybe soon to be replaced with the much more polite "we men don't have hair on our ears and we women have exposed pimples! But true holiness is more than a mass of split ends with a bow" NOT)
should know better.

It's rude. Plain and simple. It's especially rude coming from a Christian.

And to claim that those who keep the "standards" (don't like that term at all) are judging by the outward, and then to turn around and make comments like this, is being downright hypocritical.

:clap:clap:clap:cheer:bolt

meBNme
10-31-2008, 12:41 AM
I think we would differ on what we believe is personal conviction and what we believe is Biblically based, but I do still get frustrated when people paint those of us who don't cut our hair as having a mess of split ends, those of us who don't wear make up as having pimply faces, those of us who don't wear pants as being blue denim whales.




Big statement. Some folks believe that certain "standards" of dress and behavior are merely rules and pastoral restrictions.
Others of us have seen scripture that we strongly believe confirms, and requires certain "standards" of dress and behavior.

I begins to seem immature, and closed minded when folks automatically lump us all into the "legalism" crowd.

My wife is ALWAYS getting comments, compliments and amazed questions like "How do you get your hair to look so healthy and beautiful, what do you do to it? No one seems to believe her when she says, "well.... I just don't cut it." They then proceed to tell her how that simply won't work, she will have split ends, and broken unhealthy hair. They then tell her all these things she needs to do to it to keep it healthy. All the while their hair looks dry, brittle, faded, burnt out and half dead.

.....ummmm HELLOOOO!?!?!? Who's the one with healthy long beautiful hair that you were so amazed by? Who's the one with hair that looks like it just came through the extreme conditions human hair stress test.... and failed miserably? I think maybe she's onto something.

The blue denim whales comments and others like it making fun of someone who chooses a different standard really just seem to be dripping with bitterness.

cliff d
10-31-2008, 05:56 AM
Awsome,Awsome,Awsome.........Thank you Bro. mfblume I believe that summation hits the nail on the head.....once again I say thank you.

cliff d
10-31-2008, 06:06 AM
Your quote on page 14 about the blood.

iceniez
10-31-2008, 06:20 AM
i think one issue that needs to be addressed here is that grace is not lawlessness. Grace is only in effect in ones life as they yield to the spirit and allow the law of the spirit to work its work in their heart. And we cannot take away the importance of the hearing of the word of god either. God has placed leaders over the flock to use the word of god to preach sound doctrine, reprove, bring correction, and instruct the saint in the ways of righteousness. The balance to this discussion is that grace without the word of god is not grace at all. Grace instructs the receiver to separate themselves from worldliness and unrighteousness, and live righteous and sober. Those that continue to love this present world with its "things" do not possess grace.

very true and your comment did not go unnoticed.

Rhoni
10-31-2008, 12:27 PM
Originally Posted by stmatthew http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/forum/NewBlueDefault/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=619813#post619813)
i think one issue that needs to be addressed here is that grace is not lawlessness. Grace is only in effect in ones life as they yield to the spirit and allow the law of the spirit to work its work in their heart. And we cannot take away the importance of the hearing of the word of god either. God has placed leaders over the flock to use the word of god to preach sound doctrine, reprove, bring correction, and instruct the saint in the ways of righteousness. The balance to this discussion is that grace without the word of god is not grace at all. Grace instructs the receiver to separate themselves from worldliness and unrighteousness, and live righteous and sober. Those that continue to love this present world with its "things" do not possess grace.




St. Matthew,

This is true and what my Pastor preached on this past Sunday:)

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni
10-31-2008, 12:51 PM
Oh boy! Least to say Max is not one of my favorites in this area. His view on Grace is well..... bad!

Raised the way I was raised - it was a breath of fresh air!:friend I know the doctrinal differences. I also like some of Chuck Colson's work.

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni
10-31-2008, 12:54 PM
This is one I certainly agree with.
I also strongly believe that the Bible requires a standard in our lives, and it is sin not to follow it.

The standard the Bible talks about is an inward standard of holiness "The nature and Character of Christ". When you are nurturing the holiness of God on the inside, modesty of dress will follow. It is the beyond modesty to the point of manmade opinions that are the problem.

Blessings, Rhoni

mfblume
10-31-2008, 01:05 PM
Agreed, but the fine line many people don't (or won't) see, is that while changing through human energy without dependence on Gods power is a recipe for failure, it does not eliminate the absolute necessity for change.

My whole point was change is needed. But the way we see it happen is what counts as either legalism or grace.

Some folks think that "Since I shouldn't be a certain way simply because of mans teachings, that means I don't have to pay heed to any of it at all."
Regardless of the fact that sometimes, some of the teachings are purely biblical.
No, not all maybe, but those that are only teachings do not discount the ones that have biblical basis.

I think that is a given. :)

Rhoni
10-31-2008, 01:52 PM
My whole point was change is needed. But the way we see it happen is what counts as either legalism or grace.



I think that is a given. :)

The standard the Bible talks about is an inward standard of holiness "The nature and Character of Christ". When you are nurturing the holiness of God on the inside, modesty of dress will follow. It is the beyond modesty to the point of manmade opinions that are the problem.

Blessings, Rhoni

It always come downs to manmade rules is the problem. It has been since the beginning of time. I think there is an inner nature of man that man wants to believe they can make themself righteous by dress, ceremonies, and works. God's grace is so simple that people stumble over it.

Blessings, Rhoni

Shawn
10-31-2008, 02:20 PM
I think modesty has to be key.

But I don't see how we can take a snapshot out of time from 50 or a hundred years ago and make that the standard for apearance. What are the odds that the Apostles and early church would of passed the standards. Can we think that Paul was more worried about a close shave and a perfectly neat hair cut or converting souls and dealing with peoples hearts.

Rhoni
10-31-2008, 07:39 PM
I think modesty has to be key.

But I don't see how we can take a snapshot out of time from 50 or a hundred years ago and make that the standard for apearance. What are the odds that the Apostles and early church would of passed the standards. Can we think that Paul was more worried about a close shave and a perfectly neat hair cut or converting souls and dealing with peoples hearts.

EXACTLY!

Blessings, Rhoni

mfblume
10-31-2008, 07:43 PM
Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules; Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body, butt they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Those verses you quoted at the start say it all. How many churches concentrate on "touch not, taste not, handle not"? Some cannot even be reading the bible.

Rhoni
10-31-2008, 07:54 PM
Those verses you quoted at the start say it all. How many churches concentrate on "touch not, taste not, handle not"? Some cannot even be reading the bible.

Bro. Blume,

So many false religions are started by taking one scripture, or one portion of a scripture, and basing a whole philosophy/doctrine on it. That is why it is so important to study the word, in the correct context, and to rightly divide it.

Paul showed such awesome wisdom when repremanding the Jewish leaders/converts when they tried to make the Gentile converts follow the Jewish law they had been delivered from. To go back to the law with its regulations and traditions would render Christ's work on the cross to no avail.

I accept the grace of God in my life and I fight daily to keep myself free from those weights of judgmentalism, and works based traditions that kept me bound in shame and condemnation. No matter how hard I worked or how holy I looked - I never flet good enough. Now I just accept that I am not good enough - BUT HE is all I need. His grace covers my humanity.

Blessings, Rhoni

meBNme
10-31-2008, 09:14 PM
Bro. Blume,

So many false religions are started by taking one scripture, or one portion of a scripture, and basing a whole philosophy/doctrine on it. That is why it is so important to study the word, in the correct context, and to rightly divide it.

Paul showed such awesome wisdom when repremanding the Jewish leaders/converts when they tried to make the Gentile converts follow the Jewish law they had been delivered from. To go back to the law with its regulations and traditions would render Christ's work on the cross to no avail.

I accept the grace of God in my life and I fight daily to keep myself free from those weights of judgmentalism, and works based traditions that kept me bound in shame and condemnation. No matter how hard I worked or how holy I looked - I never flet good enough. Now I just accept that I am not good enough - BUT HE is all I need. His grace covers my humanity.

Blessings, Rhoni

I'm curious, specifically what laws, regulations and traditions do you mean here?

It's interesting to see the spiritual journey you have taken. How a life of rules, regulations, expectations, condemnation etc, pushed you away, only to
have God draw you back to start over with you. It's obvious that there are scars from where things were mishandled, mistaught, misunderstood and just plain done wrong. Its also awesome to see God take all of that and start working on the vessel again. Scars, hard spots, broken pieces and all.
He obviously saw some soft spots, some moldable clay, and a desire to just be close to him.
Over and over in your posts I see you stress a desire to just know God, and live up to the standards HE desires of you, not mans requirements.
I do believe that is genuine.
I also agree that is the right way, the biblical way, to approach holiness.

It is so easy for those who hold to the dress and adornment standards to misunderstand, and thereby completely get the wrong impression of a persons intent. Its easy for this type of person to fall into the trap of thinking that anyone who balks at "standards" of dress, adornment, entertainment etc, are simply trying to justify sin, or ignore biblical teachings, or seek a "lower commitment" etc.

But it is true, if someone is living "standards of holiness" because of the "law" or condemnation, or purely strict regulation, they are doing it for the wrong reason and their soul is in danger.

If standards are taught or required, but the focus is not on love, grace, desire to please God, and hunger for a likeness of Christ, then it can be very harmful indeed.

We must be careful to understand that God deals with each of us differently, at different paces and methods. We must be careful not to see someone who does not agree with strict "holiness standards" as backslidden, or compromisers, or just wanting to justify a lack of willingness to please God. While there certainly may be some of that, not all fit that bill.


It is also easy to fall into the trap of misunderstanding those who believe those same standards are important, or necessary.
It's easy to see them as simply, "living by the law", legalists, neocons, and discount their beliefs as mere traditions of men, or false doctrine.

Yes there are some, (maybe many) who fit that description, not all who follow those "Holiness standards" fit the bill.
We must understand that some churches/pastors/individuals teach and believe that our focus should be on loving God, drawing closer to him, seeking his favor and delighting in his grace. We must understand that some of those "standards people" couldn't care less about mans traditions, rules, regulations etc, and just feel personal callings that draw them to certain types of dress, lack of adornment, and not participating in some forms of entertainment. It as nothing to do with law or rules, or "works of men" its simply a personal belief that it pleases God.

Rhoni, please don't let yourself be trapped by past wounds, or allow those times when you experienced the overbearing, law like nature of churches going about things the wrong way make you close doors that God may want to have open for you.
Follow Gods will, not only forgetting mans traditions and laws, but also not allowing his wrongness prevent you from seeing things in a different light.
Just because wrong things were taught, and things were handled wrongly with the wrong intent or method, doesnt mean there may not be nuggets of truth buried in all the dirt somewhere. Let your mind be open to GOD's intervention on subjects that mans failures built walls around. There may be another light cast on some things.

cliff d
10-31-2008, 10:56 PM
Colossians 2:20-23 JB Phillips----So if, through your faith in Christ, you are dead to the principles of this world's life, why, as if you were still part and parcel of this world-wide system, do you take the slightest notice of these purely human prohibitions---"Don't touch this," "Don't taste that" and "Don't handle the other"? This, that, and the other will all pass away after use! I know that these regulations look wise with their self-inspired efforts at piety, their policy of self-humbling, and their studied neglect of the body. But in the actual practice they are of no moral value,but simply pamper the flesh.

In the final analysis, Paul believed human traditions and regulations gave people a false sense of holiness and created unnecessary divisions in the body of Christ.

That is where I too shall rest my case. If one is not in a spirit of rebellion or offense, issues like beards and powder on your face do not destroy God's kingdom. They are not mentioned in the Gospels or Acts as a part of the plan of salvation; nor in I Corinthians 6: 9,10, as things that will keep one out of the kingdom; nor are they listed in Galatians 5: 19-21, as works of the flesh that also will bar a person from the kingdom of God. They are only kept alive as "hair-splitting theologies" by believers who may be sincere but are sincerely wrong in majoring on "gnat issues" that have little to do with living in the faith,
true holiness, the great commission, or the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Although it may be painful and uncomfortable to examine some traditions of the past, it is
necessary that we break free from human webs of bondage and customs that are harmful to the kingdom of God. Traditions and nonessentials should be open to change and truth should prevail over the preferences of man. It is only after we are honest enough to confront our prejudices that the truth can set us free. When we make incidentals a part of our salvational doctrine, we have gone to far. Being "in the faith" requires us to refrain from teaching for doctrines the commandments of men and denominations. Let us cling to Biblical truth, while refusing counterfeit liberty and the
unnecessary yokes of man!

freeatlast
11-01-2008, 09:24 AM
Colossians 2:20-23 JB Phillips----So if, through your faith in Christ, you are dead to the principles of this world's life, why, as if you were still part and parcel of this world-wide system, do you take the slightest notice of these purely human prohibitions---"Don't touch this," "Don't taste that" and "Don't handle the other"? This, that, and the other will all pass away after use! I know that these regulations look wise with their self-inspired efforts at piety, their policy of self-humbling, and their studied neglect of the body. But in the actual practice they are of no moral value,but simply pamper the flesh.

In the final analysis, Paul believed human traditions and regulations gave people a false sense of holiness and created unnecessary divisions in the body of Christ.

That is where I too shall rest my case. If one is not in a spirit of rebellion or offense, issues like beards and powder on your face do not destroy God's kingdom. They are not mentioned in the Gospels or Acts as a part of the plan of salvation; nor in I Corinthians 6: 9,10, as things that will keep one out of the kingdom; nor are they listed in Galatians 5: 19-21, as works of the flesh that also will bar a person from the kingdom of God. They are only kept alive as "hair-splitting theologies" by believers who may be sincere but are sincerely wrong in majoring on "gnat issues" that have little to do with living in the faith,
true holiness, the great commission, or the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Although it may be painful and uncomfortable to examine some traditions of the past, it is
necessary that we break free from human webs of bondage and customs that are harmful to the kingdom of God. Traditions and nonessentials should be open to change and truth should prevail over the preferences of man. It is only after we are honest enough to confront our prejudices that the truth can set us free. When we make incidentals a part of our salvational doctrine, we have gone to far. Being "in the faith" requires us to refrain from teaching for doctrines the commandments of men and denominations. Let us cling to Biblical truth, while refusing counterfeit liberty and the
unnecessary yokes of man!


WOW Cliff...great post. I wish I'd have said all that... ;-)

I am preaching tomorrow morning on Gideons 300. God wanted no mistakes that it was ALL HIM and Zero us in winning the battle against the Midiantes.

Our "holiness rules, regulations, clothline, harline" preaching is our vain effort to take the credit for victory away from God and impute it to ourselves.

We glory in how good we can be, gloating and patting ourselves on the back for not alllowing facial hair in the camp, for keeping womea with pants on, out of the camp of the holy.

I think this is my first post on thsi thread, but I can't keep quiet any longer.

Legaism kills.

Some say that there is a right way to teach "holiness standards". I keep thinking that there can not be a right way to teach a false doctrine...period.

You can cloak it in sincerity all you want, but at the end of the day, if it does not stand up to proper scriptural exegesis it's not worth any more than a pile of cow pies.

I just recieved a letter from a young mna who was raised very ultra conservative.

He is so excited and on fire for God. For the first time in his life he is reading the bible thru, with his upc shaded glasses off.

He is so thrilled with the book of Galatians, asking me whether or not "apostolics" were even aware that the book of Galatians exsisted.

He is realizing that for so long he has been guilty of being under "that other gospel" that Paul alluded to.

We need Gideons army to teach us a lesson...it's 100% Jesus..Zero % us to receive the gospel message of Christ.

If we trust on our arm of flesh for any part of our salvation we are missing out on God's unmerited grace in our lives.