UPC District board suing church in MS.?

[Minister_WD]

It was recently brought to my attention that an influential UPC church, that followed the by laws it had set up for years, was brought under pressure by the WPF to disafilliate. Some board members were upset and joined their district board to sue the pastor to maintain affilliation. After appearing in court, it seems the church had properly followed their by-laws and the court refused to get involved. Do you think it is acceptable for board members and, particularly, the district board to file suit against their "brother?"

[Tyk]

Sure, if you don't read the bible.

[Esther]

It was recently brought to my attention that an influential UPC church, that followed the by laws it had set up for years, was brought under pressure by the WPF to disafilliate. Some board members were upset and joined their district board to sue the pastor to maintain affilliation. After appearing in court, it seems the church had properly followed their by-laws and the court refused to get involved. Do you think it is acceptable for board members and, particularly, the district board to file suit against their "brother?"

If this is true, it is a very sad day.:crazy

[ILG]

It was recently brought to my attention that an influential UPC church, that followed the by laws it had set up for years, was brought under pressure by the WPF to disafilliate. Some board members were upset and joined their district board to sue the pastor to maintain affilliation. After appearing in court, it seems the church had properly followed their by-laws and the court refused to get involved. Do you think it is acceptable for board members and, particularly, the district board to file suit against their "brother?"

Of course not.

[TRFrance]

I dont think the courts should be a first option. The first option should always be to resolve it with your brother, and if necessary, get a third party involved to arbitrate the situation.

But if that fails, I'm not sure I can condemn someone who chooses to use the court system if they tried the other measures and they didn't work.

[Amos]

Some members of the church sued the pastor. It wasn't the District Board, although the board was reportedly in support of them.

It was thrown out because the pastor had followed disaffiliation procedures and the church bylaws to the letter, and had a majority vote (albeit a slim one).

[mfblume]

No church should get involved in legal matters with secular court. Running churches as they should be ran in the Kingdom of God requires a lot of things many churches would never abide by.

It reminds me of Paul's words, as well, that mirror Jesus', about commanding a fornicator to leave the church.

[tv1a]

Initially it looks like the District Board support was in name only. How much involvement did the district have in trying to keep the church in the "fold"? Are district officials making plans to put another church in that area? Initially, it looks like there wasn't much fight from the district.

Some members of the church sued the pastor. It wasn't the District Board, although the board was reportedly in support of them.

It was thrown out because the pastor had followed disaffiliation procedures and the church bylaws to the letter, and had a majority vote (albeit a slim one).

[ILG]

Some members of the church sued the pastor. It wasn't the District Board, although the board was reportedly in support of them.

It was thrown out because the pastor had followed disaffiliation procedures and the church bylaws to the letter, and had a majority vote (albeit a slim one).

The board was in support of them? or of them filing a lawsuit?

[Stephanas]

1 Cor 6:5-8

5 I say this as bluntly as I can to wake you up to the stupidity of what you're doing. Is it possible that there isn't one levelheaded person among you who can make fair decisions when disagreements and disputes come up? I don't believe it. 6 And here you are taking each other to court before people who don't even believe in God! How can they render justice if they don't believe in the God of justice?

7 These court cases are an ugly blot on your community. Wouldn't it be far better to just take it, to let yourselves be wronged and forget it? 8 All you're doing is providing fuel for more wrong, more injustice, bringing more hurt to the people of your own spiritual family.

(from THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language © 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. All rights reserved.)

It is indeed an ugly blot when "Jesus name" people subject His name to disrepute before unbelievers. It's amazing that we have enough faith to believe that He will save us, but we don't believe that He will vindicate us if our cause is right.

[Rhoni]

It was recently brought to my attention that an influential UPC church, that followed the by laws it had set up for years, was brought under pressure by the WPF to disafilliate. Some board members were upset and joined their district board to sue the pastor to maintain affilliation. After appearing in court, it seems the church had properly followed their by-laws and the court refused to get involved. Do you think it is acceptable for board members and, particularly, the district board to file suit against their "brother?"

This is not the first time a lawsuit has been brought against a UPCI church trying to disaffiliate. It isn't ethical nor is it Biblical...but they are just a manmade organization which makes decisions based on financial assets.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Sister Alvear]

sad that things like this happen.

[Sam]

In my opinion, this should be settled within the church, and not brought to secular courts. That would be "Plan A."

Some times "Plan A" can't be accomplished and we feel like we have no recourse but to go to "Plan B" which would take it before a secular court. Churches are usually incorporated and given non profit status in compliance with laws and our secular legal system, so we're already tainted by the secular legal system whether we like it or not. Some times the only recourse we have is to go have something like this settled by a secular judge who should be impartial.

[Weary Pilgrim]

Preachers suing preachers,what a testimony to the world.
Another black eye for the Apostolics if this hits the media.

[Threads]

I'm surprized that ST Mark wasn't all over this.:aaa

[George]

I'm surprized that ST Mark wasn't all over this.:aaa

I believe St. Mark has been ill the past few days.

[George]

I think there are too many holes in this story to pass judgment. It seems on the surface it is about disafilliation but I would bet there is a whole lot more to this story. If the church board was suing with the support of the district board, there must have been some issues with the pastor. District boards usually don't stand against a pastor unless they have knowledge of a serious issue.

[tv1a]

I'm curious how much support was given by the district. It could be the "support" was more like encouragement rather than an endorsement of the course taken. Was there an official vote of support by the district? Too many unanswered questions.

I think there are too many holes in this story to pass judgment. It seems on the surface it is about disafilliation but I would bet there is a whole lot more to this story. If the church board was suing with the support of the district board, there must have been some issues with the pastor. District boards usually don't stand against a pastor unless they have knowledge of a serious issue.

[Amos]

I think there are too many holes in this story to pass judgment. It seems on the surface it is about disafilliation but I would bet there is a whole lot more to this story. If the church board was suing with the support of the district board, there must have been some issues with the pastor. District boards usually don't stand against a pastor unless they have knowledge of a serious issue.

That may be true in many places, but not in Mississippi.

The board there has historically taken the side of the church most of the time.

The prevailing mindset is that they can always get another preacher somewhere, but the saints have to stay there. :)

[MissBrattified]

1. Taking it to secular courts is entirely out of line with scripture. I don't care if the cause is just or not. Unless there is some sort of criminal act involved, the governing agencies shouldn't be involved.

2. I agree; we don't have all the facts. It's hard to call it one way or the other as to who is right. Some pastors deliberately set up their bylaws to give themselves more control than the organization, but obviously this pastor made the mistake of countering his own authority with a board that doesn't consist of "yes men." :D

There's more to this story, no doubt.

[freeatlast]

1. Taking it to secular courts is entirely out of line with scripture. I don't care if the cause is just or not. Unless there is some sort of criminal act involved, the governing agencies shouldn't be involved.

2. I agree; we don't have all the facts. It's hard to call it one way or the other as to who is right. Some pastors deliberately set up their bylaws to give themselves more control than the organization, but obviously this pastor made the mistake of countering his own authority with a board that doesn't consist of "yes men." :D

There's more to this story, no doubt.

Our board, just last year revised our archaic (sp) by laws to give more protection to the church and to protect us from any greedy or unscrupulous pastor.

Addition to and removal from the board takes a majority vote of the board now.

The board can convene and take action to remove the pastor by majority vote.

We also voted to become non affiliated and established a concil of Elders that can be contacted if a problem ever occured or if we were faced with the sudden deparure of our pastor.

Our concil consists of three pastors that our church knows.

I have seen preachers who have posted comments that they would never pastor a church with a board like this. That if they did not have right to 100% tithe etc.

Our new by laws pretty much ensure we will never have one of those type of pastors come our way.

For that reason alone I am thankful that. That type of controling pastor will not stay whe his check stops showing up ;-)

[TRFrance]

It was recently brought to my attention that an influential UPC church, that followed the by laws it had set up for years, was brought under pressure by the WPF to disafilliate. Some board members were upset and joined their district board to sue the pastor to maintain affilliation. After appearing in court, it seems the church had properly followed their by-laws and the court refused to get involved. Do you think it is acceptable for board members and, particularly, the district board to file suit against their "brother?"

I thought the WPF was not a denomination, nor wanted to act like one... and would not be pressuring churches to disaffiliate from their present organization.

If this story is true, then perhaps we were being misled all along. That would be sad.

[StMark]

~ O MY ~

I have some information I read on another forum
NO! I shall NOT name that forum do DO NOT ask!!! but when I have time to log back on,
I'll cut and paste it over here

Lord Bless!!!

[George]

That may be true in many places, but not in Mississippi.

The board there has historically taken the side of the church most of the time.

The prevailing mindset is that they can always get another preacher somewhere, but the saints have to stay there. :)

From what I have heard, you are right. In fact, I believe in just a short period of time, 50% of the UPCI churches in Mississippi have changed pastors. Sounds like a rough place to be a pastor. You can guarantee there will be many church splits.

[CC1]

Some members of the church sued the pastor. It wasn't the District Board, although the board was reportedly in support of them.

It was thrown out because the pastor had followed disaffiliation procedures and the church bylaws to the letter, and had a majority vote (albeit a slim one).

Sounds lke a sad situation for all. I am always surprised that folks who consider themselves Christians persist in airing the churches dirty laundry in the public courts where the church is trying to minister.

I would walk away with a right spirit and with the intent of doing no harm. If the church was heading a direction I didn't agree with I would find one I felt was heading the right direction.

This kind of public action and publicity dimenishes the church in the eyes of the world and hurts its witness.

[deltaguitar]

From what I have heard, you are right. In fact, I believe in just a short period of time, 50% of the UPCI churches in Mississippi have changed pastors. Sounds like a rough place to be a pastor. You can guarantee there will be many church splits.

Yep, this happened in our church. The only viable UPC church within 60 miles and the MS district blew it. But i am glad they did, it just made it easier for us to leave. :whistle

[DividedThigh]

the answer is no, source the bible, dt

[MrsMcD]

I must have read my bible wrong but I thought it says something about suing.

[All4one]

Its just business. The organization is set up as a business. They must maintain control to be succsessfull.

[Theresa]

This is not the first time a lawsuit has been brought against a UPCI church trying to disaffiliate. It isn't ethical nor is it Biblical...but they are just a manmade organization which makes decisions based on financial assets.

Blessings, Rhoni

Its just business. The organization is set up as a business. They must maintain control to be succsessfull.

*sits on hands*:aaa

[StMark]

well, I had some info from another forum I got last week
but no one seems to be interested in it .

no prob

[Theresa]

well, I had some info from another forum I got last week

but no one seems to be interested in it .

no prob

you said you'd paste it..

so we wait. :ursofunny

[StMark]

you said you'd paste it..

so we wait. :ursofunny


There was no interest in it Theresa.

[deltaguitar]

Please post it!!!! We love gossip here in mississippi!!!!!

[Timmy]

well, I had some info from another forum I got last week
but no one seems to be interested in it .

no prob

Why let that stop you? :ursofunny

[StMark]

Please post it!!!! We love gossip here in mississippi!!!!!



This comment from a preacher- names withheld

Name of forum - withheld

did some more checking and it was a couple of board members who sued, and the district board did back them up! You would think that they would tell the people that the Bible is against that, but......
One former DS asked some of those there whose side are you on? They told him something along the lines he would see where they were setting.

This district for many years has backed the laity over the pastor, so it is not much of a suprise. In a 12 month period, in a district of around 150 churches, they had 75 give or take 1 or 2, vote in a new pastor. Over 45 of those churches voted out the former pastor, or ran him off. It was a board run church mentality.

__: wish that I had the self-constraint to stay out of this discussion, but when I watch a church where I invested almost 11 years of my life torn apart it is very difficult. Brother White, you have no idea how true your words are concerning the damage done to this community.
The exact percentage of those voting to disaffiliate was 58.7%. How can a pastor make a decision of this magnitude with that level of support?

That church building was the dream and effort of one of the greatest Christians that I ever knew- Charles Triplett. He died 4 years after the congregation moved into the sanctuary; his life insurance paid the first mortgage. Under my pastorate, the church retired the final $175,000 indebtedness. I added the Family Center wing. When I resigned, the church was debt-free and had $65,000 in the bank. Brother Mark Herrington later built the additional office and educational complex. I do not know the exact value of this property. I am sure that it exceeds four million dollars.

It appears to me that the WPF has targeted this church chiefly for the use of this outstanding complex. I INVITE ANY OF THE WPF LEADERSHIP TO COME ON THIS FORUM AND REFUTE THIS CLAIM. I left much of my heart in the city of Natchez and am grieved by these recent events. As I mentioned in an earlier post, my father and uncle conducted the first Apostolic meeting ever held in that city.

Another thing that has shocked me about this matter is the fact that some of Brother Triplett's dearest friends have been supportive of this fiasco. THIS CHAIN OF EVENTS IS NOT ABOUT TELEVISION ADVERTISING OR THE ROLE OF A CHURCH BOARD. My prayer is that somehow the good name and influence of this church, A UPC CHURCH FOR 57 YEARS, will survive intact in this the oldest settlement on the Mississippi River.

Hopefully, I rest my case.

[All4one]

This comment from a preacher- names withheld

Name of forum - withheld

did some more checking and it was a couple of board members who sued, and the district board did back them up! You would think that they would tell the people that the Bible is against that, but......
One former DS asked some of those there whose side are you on? They told him something along the lines he would see where they were setting.

This district for many years has backed the laity over the pastor, so it is not much of a suprise. In a 12 month period, in a district of around 150 churches, they had 75 give or take 1 or 2, vote in a new pastor. Over 45 of those churches voted out the former pastor, or ran him off. It was a board run church mentality.

__: wish that I had the self-constraint to stay out of this discussion, but when I watch a church where I invested almost 11 years of my life torn apart it is very difficult. Brother White, you have no idea how true your words are concerning the damage done to this community.
The exact percentage of those voting to disaffiliate was 58.7%. How can a pastor make a decision of this magnitude with that level of support?

That church building was the dream and effort of one of the greatest Christians that I ever knew- Charles Triplett. He died 4 years after the congregation moved into the sanctuary; his life insurance paid the first mortgage. Under my pastorate, the church retired the final $175,000 indebtedness. I added the Family Center wing. When I resigned, the church was debt-free and had $65,000 in the bank. Brother Mark Herrington later built the additional office and educational complex. I do not know the exact value of this property. I am sure that it exceeds four million dollars.

It appears to me that the WPF has targeted this church chiefly for the use of this outstanding complex. I INVITE ANY OF THE WPF LEADERSHIP TO COME ON THIS FORUM AND REFUTE THIS CLAIM. I left much of my heart in the city of Natchez and am grieved by these recent events. As I mentioned in an earlier post, my father and uncle conducted the first Apostolic meeting ever held in that city.

Another thing that has shocked me about this matter is the fact that some of Brother Triplett's dearest friends have been supportive of this fiasco. THIS CHAIN OF EVENTS IS NOT ABOUT TELEVISION ADVERTISING OR THE ROLE OF A CHURCH BOARD. My prayer is that somehow the good name and influence of this church, A UPC CHURCH FOR 57 YEARS, will survive intact in this the oldest settlement on the Mississippi River.

Hopefully, I rest my case.

Like I said , Its just business! Ever hear of a corporation trying to enlarge itself by taking over other businesses?

[deltaguitar]

Well, are any of these churches going charismatic or are they headed more towards WPF?

[Theresa]

Like I said , Its just business! Ever hear of a corporation trying to enlarge itself by taking over other businesses?

in Mississippi - it's not BUSINESS.

Its...well, not business.

When a board votes with the members of the church MOST of the time, many times to the demise of the pastor...there is more going on than "business"...

I've seen ministers and their entire families lost b/c of how the district board handled a situation. They were WRONG. And to my knowledge they dont give a rip about the end results.

[ILG]

I don't understand this story. Why is disafilliating such a big deal? Last I checked both types could be part of the UPC. What does the WPF have to do with it?

[CC1]

I think everybody ought to be very careful about taking the poster that St. Mark quoted at face value.

He lists many statistics that may not be accurate. I find it extremely hard to believe that in the MS district half of the churches have run off their pastors in the last year. That seems absurd. My wife is from Mississippi and we have a lot of family there.

I think perhaps that poster was speaking "evangelistically" when giving those figures. Some people have no problem "roudning off" in a rather broad fashion!

[MissBrattified]

I think everybody ought to be very careful about taking the poster that St. Mark quoted at face value.

He lists many statistics that may not be accurate. I find it extremely hard to believe that in the MS district half of the churches have run off their pastors in the last year. That seems absurd. My wife is from Mississippi and we have a lot of family there.

I think perhaps that poster was speaking "evangelistically" when giving those figures. Some people have no problem "roudning off" in a rather broad fashion!

I'm not endorsing the poster either, but that isn't what he said. He said that 75, give or take 1 or 2, had voted in a new pastor (not the same as "running one off"), and that over 45 of THOSE had ran off their pastor, or voted him out.

Still, there are districts with a quick pastoral turnover, especially in home missions churches (assuming those were counted in the "stats"), so it's not really all that hard to believe.

[Steve Epley]

I think everybody ought to be very careful about taking the poster that St. Mark quoted at face value.

He lists many statistics that may not be accurate. I find it extremely hard to believe that in the MS district half of the churches have run off their pastors in the last year. That seems absurd. My wife is from Mississippi and we have a lot of family there.

I think perhaps that poster was speaking "evangelistically" when giving those figures. Some people have no problem "roudning off" in a rather broad fashion!

Sadly these are close it not in fact the stats. Ms. has been a board run district among the churches and pastoral longivity is not in the mix. Thuis particular situation the present DS saw no problem and gave his assent hoiwever 2 former DS' s attended the meeting uninvited and sided with the disgruntles. In court the judge said the UPCI had NO standing whatsoever in the matter it was a local congregational matter and asked them to try to settle it. Everything was done according to the manual and the church bylaws. I only hope it does not split but that looks like that will probably happen.

[deltaguitar]

Sadly these are close it not in fact the stats. Ms. has been a board run district among the churches and pastoral longivity is not in the mix. Thuis particular situation the present DS saw no problem and gave his assent hoiwever 2 former DS' s attended the meeting uninvited and sided with the disgruntles. In court the judge said the UPCI had NO standing whatsoever in the matter it was a local congregational matter and asked them to try to settle it. Everything was done according to the manual and the church bylaws. I only hope it does not split but that looks like that will probably happen.

Church splits are not necessarily a bad thing. Yes, it is tough on those involved but a couple of years down the road and you can usually see that it wasn't such a bad idea.

I had been a part of the same church for 27 years and when I left I did so because I knew that I could never go to that church again. Even the building represented something "evil" in my mind. Three months after I left I realized that I should have been gone long before we had any of the problems. We have a certain group that was basically split right down the middle that saw things a different way and neither side could agree.

[DividedThigh]

there are dist boards that are over bearing and try to stick there noses where they dont belong, the courts were wise to not give them standing, lol

[andrea83]

To everyone that seems to have an opinion on this issue.......... First of all, you do NOT have all the facts.
Second...... Get all the facts before posting your opinion on any matter. You all are so quick to judge and say going to court was wrong, but then again... you don't know what you're talking about.

[deltaguitar]

To everyone that seems to have an opinion on this issue.......... First of all, you do NOT have all the facts.
Second...... Get all the facts before posting your opinion on any matter. You all are so quick to judge and say going to court was wrong, but then again... you don't know what you're talking about.

Welcome to the forum. Take a deep breath and calm down and just realize that this is free speech at work and there will always be opinions.

[andrea83]

I understand that it is "free speech" but people love to talk about issues they know nothing about and give judgement to whom they feel are in the wrong. There is a lot more to this then "some board members and the district taking the pastor to court over pulling out of the organization". That is only part of it. The people that are in disagreement with the current pastor are awesome people. They are holy and god-fearing men and by no means are they trying to go against the Bible. They are trying to keep a church that they and their family members helped build/start, intact and not split because of a so called television issue.

[Rhoni]

I understand that it is "free speech" but people love to talk about issues they know nothing about and give judgement to whom they feel are in the wrong. There is a lot more to this then "some board members and the district taking the pastor to court over pulling out of the organization". That is only part of it. The people that are in disagreement with the current pastor are awesome people. They are holy and god-fearing men and by no means are they trying to go against the Bible. They are trying to keep a church that they and their family members helped build/start, intact and not split because of a so called television issue.

I agree that this should not be for open discussion on this forum, but unfortunately some of the issues presented even in your statement would put a red flag up in my eyes. The church belongs to God and not a family who started it. .

Blessings, Rhoni

[deltaguitar]

I understand that it is "free speech" but people love to talk about issues they know nothing about and give judgement to whom they feel are in the wrong. There is a lot more to this then "some board members and the district taking the pastor to court over pulling out of the organization". That is only part of it. The people that are in disagreement with the current pastor are awesome people. They are holy and god-fearing men and by no means are they trying to go against the Bible. They are trying to keep a church that they and their family members helped build/start, intact and not split because of a so called television issue.

It is a really sad situation. I have seen men try to protect what they had built at the expense of everything. The church I was a part of had some men who were scared to death that the church they thought they had built would go in a direction that opposed their views. The problem is that those men ran off half of the congregation in order to preserve an idea that wasn't even reality. In the end I left because the fighting got so dirty that I wanted nothing to do with a church or even the building anymore.

I am sure that the men you speak of are just trying to protect what they love against the political agendas of a few. In all fairness there are assets at stake and families who have spent their whole lives building a church and if the only way to protect this is court then maybe they have the right.

There is really no easy way in a situation like this.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I'm not Upci,but I have heard there are alot of MS.UPCI folks pulling of the org.
I really don't have a dog in the fight so to speak.

[Jethro Bodine]

It is a really sad situation. I have seen men try to protect what they had built at the expense of everything. The church I was a part of had some men who were scared to death that the church they thought they had built would go in a direction that opposed their views. The problem is that those men ran off half of the congregation in order to preserve an idea that wasn't even reality. In the end I left because the fighting got so dirty that I wanted nothing to do with a church or even the building anymore.

I am sure that the men you speak of are just trying to protect what they love against the political agendas of a few. In all fairness there are assets at stake and families who have spent their whole lives building a church and if the only way to protect this is court then maybe they have the right.

There is really no easy way in a situation like this.

I do concur that some opinions have jumped passed facts that are probably not known. I would imagine there was a very logical reason for the suit. I personally think if someone takes a UPC church, especially one with strong ties, they should keep the church in the UPC. If because of the pastor's PERSONAL preference and ego he would want to go a different direction, then he should go and start his own church.

If a pastor doesnt like the church's affiliation then he shouldn't have taken it in the first place. I would bet if we knew more of the facts that some of the opinions expressed would be different.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I agree we don't know the full story.
Hey Jethro,granny is looking for you.

[deltaguitar]

I do concur that some opinion have jumped passed facts that are probably not known. I would imagine there was a very logical reason for the suit. I personally think if someone takes a UPC church, especially one with strong ties, they should keep the church in the UPC. If because of the pastor's PERSONAL preference and ego he would want to go a different direction, then he should go and start his own church.

If a pastor doesnt like the church's affiliation then he shouldn't have taken it in the first place. I would bet if we knew more of the facts that some of the opinions expressed would be different.

Sir, it really doesn't matter what the facts are. If a church board is suing the pastor or the pastor is suing the church then they are taking their brother to court. There are scriptures that mention taking issues between the saints into the secular courts.

I agree with you that a pastor shouldn't try to take an established church out of the organization, however, I also know that to disaffiliate there has to be a vote from the congregation. So, let them vote.

[Rhoni]

I understand that it is "free speech" but people love to talk about issues they know nothing about and give judgement to whom they feel are in the wrong. There is a lot more to this then "some board members and the district taking the pastor to court over pulling out of the organization". That is only part of it. The people that are in disagreement with the current pastor are awesome people. They are holy and god-fearing men and by no means are they trying to go against the Bible. They are trying to keep a church that they and their family members helped build/start, intact and not split because of a so called television issue.

I agree that this should not be for open discussion on this forum, but unfortunately some of the issues presented even in your statement would put a red flag up in my eyes. The church belongs to God and not a family who started it. .

Blessings, Rhoni

Sir, it really doesn't matter what the facts are. If a church board is suing the pastor or the pastor is suing the church then they are taking their brother to court. There are scriptures that mention taking issues between the saints into the secular courts.

I agree with you that a pastor shouldn't try to take an established church out of the organization, however, I also know that to disaffiliate there has to be a vote from the congregation. So, let them vote.

Amen. The proper procedure would be contained in the by-laws.

[Jethro Bodine]

Sir, it really doesn't matter what the facts are. If a church board is suing the pastor or the pastor is suing the church then they are taking their brother to court. There are scriptures that mention taking issues between the saints into the secular courts.

I agree with you that a pastor shouldn't try to take an established church out of the organization, however, I also know that to disaffiliate there has to be a vote from the congregation. So, let them vote.

I still do not believe it gives the license for someone to take advantage of a situation, and then cry when they get sued. I do know how much power of persuasion a public speaker can have and I can just imagine how some people were possibly persuaded using sweet talk.

If people have invested their resources over years into a church, i dont have a problem with them stepping up and standing against something. This has been a strong upc church for years from my understanding. I know the pastors picture has been on the WPF website, so I can only imagine what this poor congregation has heard.

Once again we dont have all the facts, its all conjecture at this point.

[deltaguitar]

I still do not believe it gives the license for someone to take advantage of a situation, and then cry when they get sued. I do know how much power of persuasion a public speaker can have and I can just imagine how some people were possibly persuaded using sweet talk.

If people have invested their resources over years into a church, i dont have a problem with them stepping up and standing against something. This has been a strong upc church for years from my understanding. I know the pastors picture has been on the WPF website, so I can only imagine what this poor congregation has heard.

Once again we dont have all the facts, its all conjecture at this point.

Well, this brings up a good point. Once a church's founding pastor has retired there needs to be proper bylaws that give the congregation and church board the ability to govern themselves until there is a trust between the pastor and the folks. Bad things can happen either way, you can get a church board with a bunch of control freaks or you can get a pastor trying to take a church in order to gain political power with his peers.

When we left our church we were strongly advised by legal council and even ministers within the UPC to sue for the equity of the church. Because we took most of the supporting members it would have been real easy to prove where most of the support had come from over that last few decades. However, we didn't want to do anymore damage and we had many new converts who could have easily hurt over more fighting.

What I have learned is that fighting over church issues isn't worth it. If you find that you have more friends at the church that you can fellowship with then stay and allow the church to go on it's course. But if you don't have those relationships then just leave while you can and find a better place because it ain't worth the energy.

[andrea83]

Amen!!! I totally agree.. I would like to see some reactions on here if a "brother" in the church swindled them out of $$$$$ or stole it for that matter. Would you just leave and go to another curch? I think not. Just because some of the brethern have a suit does NOT automatically mean that they are wrong. Like I said, get all the facts before judging.

[Stephanas]

Sis Andrea

Welcome to "Discussions R Us."

From my perspective the Scriptures are clear concerning lawsuits among believers, but I may be wrong.

How do you interpret Paul's strong words to the Corinthians?

1 Cor 6:1-8
Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren!
NKJV

I understand the pain and emotion of Church wars, but Paul's words do seem to be quite clear on the issue.

[All4one]

Perhaps they believe the ones they are taking to court have left the faith and are no longer their brothers.

[MissBrattified]

Amen!!! I totally agree.. I would like to see some reactions on here if a "brother" in the church swindled them out of $$$$$ or stole it for that matter. Would you just leave and go to another curch? I think not. Just because some of the brethern have a suit does NOT automatically mean that they are wrong. Like I said, get all the facts before judging.

I'm sorry, but you're incorrect. Our family has personally suffered losses we have chosen not to recover through the legal system. My Grandpa used to say to "Take the humble side." Not everyone would choose to pursue revenge, compensation or even justice, if it would mean violating scripture or personal convictions in the process.

When it is in regard to a CHURCH matter, rather than a legal matter, the scriptural guidelines apply even more, IMO. The only exception I can think of would be when there is a criminal act, and there is someone who needs defending. Even then, action taken should only go to the extent of defense of a victim, and not over the line into revenge.

Whatever happened to sentiments like these?

Romans 12:17-21 "Recompense to no man evil for evil....live peaceably with all men....if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head....Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."

Matthew 5:44 "...Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"

Luke 6:35 "But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil."

[MissBrattified]

Perhaps they believe the ones they are taking to court have left the faith and are no longer their brothers.

This seems to be a common way to justify treating brethren badly. All you have to do is find a chink in their Christian armor, declare them a sinner, and voila! You no longer have to show them love as a brother. (Or sister.)

The quickest path to justifying disrespect (or worse) is to devalue the enemy in your own mind.

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm sorry i dont buy the idea that the members of the church are wrong for bringing suit because I dont know the details. We have no idea of knowing the hurts or wrongs involved here and to pass judgment is ridiculous.

[MissBrattified]

I'm sorry i dont buy the idea that the members of the church are wrong for bringing suit because I dont know the details. We have no idea of knowing the hurts or wrongs involved here and to pass judgment is ridiculous.

Most people on here have already said that they would need to know more in order to place a firm opinion, but generally speaking from a scriptural perspective, it is a bad idea to take a brother to court. It shames the church as a whole.

[Rhoni]

Amen!!! I totally agree.. I would like to see some reactions on here if a "brother" in the church swindled them out of $$$$$ or stole it for that matter. Would you just leave and go to another curch? I think not. Just because some of the brethern have a suit does NOT automatically mean that they are wrong. Like I said, get all the facts before judging.

Sometimes it takes more strength to walk away.:friend

[staysharp]

Sometimes it takes more strength to walk away.:friend

Yes and a greater sense of faith in Christ and not an organization, building or traditions.

[aak1972]

This church has always had a board. It has always been incorporated, and any corporation by law has to have a board. This was done as most churches that I know of b/c of tax purposes and many other legal purposes that I do not have the time to get into. The board has never told any pastor what to preach etc. etc. One of the purposes of the board was to advise the pastor and congregation on business matters, like it of not the day to day operations of a church has to be run like a business. Most pastors dont have a degree in theology much less a degree in business. I for one know a pastor does not have the time to take care of all of this. The suit was filed b/c all other avenues had failed. The pastor violated several by-laws of the church and orginazation. When questioned about this his statement was the church was no longer UPC so he could do what he wanted. One of the things he done was kick the board members that did not agree with him off the board. And in his attempt to replace them he appointed one that has been married twice and one that is on his third. This goes aganst 57 years of the board meeting the same requirements of a deacon according to scripture. This church has steadily declined in membership since his arrival. Matter of fact I cannot think of 5 new people that are there. This pastor has already left a bad taste in the mouth of dozens if not hundreds of citizens of this area.

[Steve Epley]

This church has always had a board. It has always been incorporated, and any corporation by law has to have a board. This was done as most churches that I know of b/c of tax purposes and many other legal purposes that I do not have the time to get into. The board has never told any pastor what to preach etc. etc. One of the purposes of the board was to advise the pastor and congregation on business matters, like it of not the day to day operations of a church has to be run like a business. Most pastors dont have a degree in theology much less a degree in business. I for one know a pastor does not have the time to take care of all of this. The suit was filed b/c all other avenues had failed. The pastor violated several by-laws of the church and orginazation. When questioned about this his statement was the church was no longer UPC so he could do what he wanted. One of the things he done was kick the board members that did not agree with him off the board. And in his attempt to replace them he appointed one that has been married twice and one that is on his third. This goes aganst 57 years of the board meeting the same requirements of a deacon according to scripture. This church has steadily declined in membership since his arrival. Matter of fact I cannot think of 5 new people that are there. This pastor has already left a bad taste in the mouth of dozens if not hundreds of citizens of this area.

Well this isn't what I heard?

[aak1972]

Steve what you have heard and what I have witnessed is two different things. I have been a member of that church and left not long after he got there. I moved. However my parents and grandparents are still members and I do visit occasionally. I have recently moved back into the city and I am highly involved with many social events and occasions. I know literally thousands of citizens of this community and the word on the street is not a good one. This church has lost about 40% of its members since his arrival. If the man worked for me in my company and lost that much business he would be fired. This man used deception in this so called vote. He never announced a vote he only announced a business meeting and it was done on a night that he knew many of the elderly saints would not be in attendance. This man preached a sermon entitled, The facts are not the truth. I have much more I could say but I do not have the time. There are many things that has been said by this pastor that I have never heard of. I have been in Pentecost for 36 years my grandfather was a preacher and my uncle is a pastor of a thriving church so I have heard thousands of messsages. But the things that are steadily preached and said to saints of this church actually blow my mind.

[andrea83]

To those of you on the first pages who obviously don't believe anything I or the others have said disputing your opinions........... Yeserday I went and looked at other threads that have been posted... and it's the same people over and over. Do you have nothing better to do than to come to this site and gossip about people all day? And last time I checked that was also against the Bible. You all seem to know everything about everyone and know everything about the Bible or so you say... So how about this, why don't you take all the time that you are spending on this site talking about things you know nothing about and invest it in soulwinning, teaching bible studies, etc......??????

[Rhoni]

The Bible tells us not to take our brothers & sisters to court but to handle it within the church. So if the UPCI or any other person takes their brother/sister to court then they are sinning. It is New Testament and not under Judaic Law.

[staysharp]

To those of you on the first pages who obviously don't believe anything I or the others have said disputing your opinions........... Yeserday I went and looked at other threads that have been posted... and it's the same people over and over. Do you have nothing better to do than to come to this site and gossip about people all day? And last time I checked that was also against the Bible. You all seem to know everything about everyone and know everything about the Bible or so you say... So how about this, why don't you take all the time that you are spending on this site talking about things you know nothing about and invest it in soulwinning, teaching bible studies, etc......??????

So why are you here and reading gossip? Why are you judging the actions of others when you yourself are guilty of the same?

[smurfette]

So why are you here and reading gossip? Why are you judging the actions of others when you yourself are guilty of the same?

I was thinking the same thing.

[aak1972]

For those of you still insisting that the matter should be handled in the church. It was attempted and failed so there was not another choice. The funny thing is I have documentation that the pastor was the first to contact his attorney. No matter if you are for or against disaffiliation the point is any vote should have been done properly and in order. And like a former pastor of this same church stated how can you make such a decision with only 58% approval and about 11% of the voting members absent??!!

[deltaguitar]

To those of you on the first pages who obviously don't believe anything I or the others have said disputing your opinions........... Yeserday I went and looked at other threads that have been posted... and it's the same people over and over. Do you have nothing better to do than to come to this site and gossip about people all day? And last time I checked that was also against the Bible. You all seem to know everything about everyone and know everything about the Bible or so you say... So how about this, why don't you take all the time that you are spending on this site talking about things you know nothing about and invest it in soulwinning, teaching bible studies, etc......??????

Wow . . . . . . :whistle

[aak1972]

I also have documenation of the pastor inflating his sunday school attendance records that were posted in the distrist magazine The Torch. I believe this is a pastorate full of deception.

[smurfette]

To those of you on the first pages who obviously don't believe anything I or the others have said disputing your opinions........... Yeserday I went and looked at other threads that have been posted... and it's the same people over and over. Do you have nothing better to do than to come to this site and gossip about people all day? And last time I checked that was also against the Bible. You all seem to know everything about everyone and know everything about the Bible or so you say... So how about this, why don't you take all the time that you are spending on this site talking about things you know nothing about and invest it in soulwinning, teaching bible studies, etc......??????

Dear Sis Andrea,
With all due respect. I'm not one who posts a lot on this sight, however, I must speak up for the beautiful people who make up this forum. I have to say, go look at some of the prayer forums. Many of these people have received so much support for a range of things. From children acting up to spouses passing away. There is a genuine love on this forum regardless of where or who people are.

[deltaguitar]

I also have documenation of the pastor inflating his sunday school attendance records that were posted in the distrist magazine The Torch. I believe this is a pastorate full of deception.

Ha ha. This sounds very familiar. Everybody has documentation and letters and lawsuits. In the end everyone is going to believe what they want to believe and it doesn't matter what the truth is. Jesus could come down out of the sky and tell certain folks the pastor is bad and they wouldn't believe it. People love their comfort zone and they will destroy everything to defend it and once they pick a side they will be there to the end.

[aak1972]

deltaguitar, that is my main agruement in a church having a board. Unfortunatetly many pastors have proven to stray off-course. If this pastor has full controll of everything in theory he could find a lender that would loan him money on this property, which has been appraised at 4.5 million and skip the country and leave the members that have worked hard to builld and payoff the debt another debt.

[andrea83]

This site was brought to my attention to read the letter that "someone" wrote about what was happening in this church, So i read all the threads in this post. I'm not judging anyone-- all I said was you shouldn't judge without having all the facts. It's obvious from reading the posts that you feel the board members and the district are in the wrong so uhm.... i believe that is called judging.

[andrea83]

I know there are people and posts on here that are good and they are here for the right reasons. I DID NOT say all posts. I said I had looked at SOME of the posts and it is the same people gossiping back and forth. If it does not apply to you then do not feel offended. Unless you grew up in this church and still have family there or currently attend, then you do not have all the facts--- which is what I have been saying since my first post. When I and other people have tried to tell the "other" side of the story, no one is interested in that.

[deltaguitar]

deltaguitar, that is my main agruement in a church having a board. Unfortunatetly many pastors have proven to stray off-course. If this pastor has full controll of everything in theory he could find a lender that would loan him money on this property which has been appraised at 4.5 million and skip the country and leave the members that have worked hard to builld and payoff the dedt another debt.

Well, a church should have a board that the congregation can trust to oversee the assets. The pastor should be able to cast his vision and be given the freedom to operate the church in the way he sees fit. Limit his power to get the church in debt and sell assets and you should be ok.

Every church will go through problems and I hope yours will be ok though I doubt it. Don't take to much of this personal and try to walk in forgiveness. I doubt the pastor is a bad man he just has a different vision than many in the church and most of these guys have no training in ethics. Most theology paths as well as professional require a certain amount of training in ethics but if the pastor has no formal training then he may not realize how crazy the stuff he is doing looks.

[deltaguitar]

This site was brought to my attention to read the letter that "someone" wrote about what was happening in this church, So i read all the threads in this post. I'm not judging anyone-- all I said was you shouldn't judge without having all the facts. It's obvious from reading the posts that you feel the board members and the district are in the wrong so uhm.... i believe that is called judging.

You have to realize that the MS District board has a history of royally screwing up. These guys have a reputation for incompetence that is well documented. I know many from other districts that consider Mississippi to a very backward district and only laugh when they hear of the things that go on in this state.

[aak1972]

delta that is the power the board has always had. The congregation has always had to ratify the appointment of board members. Until now that is. If you read all my post and I am not saying you have not,the pastor is very inaffective. And this is not my church now. It is the church I did spend most of my life in. I spent many nights with the Tripletts and the three boys are very dear friends of mine. The humility and intellect of the man that had the vision to build this church has been replaced by an egotistical and unintelligent character.

[deltaguitar]

delta that is the power the board has always had. The congregation has always had to ratify the appointment of board members. Until now that is. If you read all my post and I am not saying you have not,the pastor is very inaffective. And this is not my church now. It is the church I did spend most of my life in. I spent many nights with the Tripletts and the three boys are very dear friends of mine. The humility and intellect of the man that had the vision to build this church has been replaced by an egotistical and unintelligent character.

Sorry about that but from what I have seen there is a shortage in the UPC of qualified ministers who can lead a church forward. Yes, there are many great men but they either have a church or are so far ultracon that no one can sit under them. These men can only minister to a very limited section of society and that is all they will ever be able to do.

[deltaguitar]

By the way, how many people attend this church?

[aak1972]

Last sunday the attendance 110

[deltaguitar]

Last sunday the attendance 110

This is typical. Big church building and not a lot of members. I predict the church I left will end up the same way. Some ultracon will come in and try to take the church out of the UPC.

[aak1972]

I am sure those numbers will be a shock to anyone who moved away or has been involved in the past. This is a third of the attendance a few years ago.

[Rhoni]

I hate church boards....

[aak1972]

Rhoni, would you explain why?

[Rhoni]

Rhoni, would you explain why?

Well, it was the worst experience of my life. I won't go into it again because I have forgiven them. But I would never pastor a board run church again - and it looks like I'll never pastor again too doesn't it?:itsover

[aak1972]

Getting back to the topic. Under the cicumstances a lawsuit was the only option. And was a last resort. The sad part is it is still not settled.

[Timmy]

Getting back to the topic. Under the cicumstances a lawsuit was the only option. And was a last resort. The sad part is it is still not settled.

Shouldn't the Biblical approach have been the last resort, whichever outcome there was, "win" or "lose", end of story?

[staysharp]

Getting back to the topic. Under the cicumstances a lawsuit was the only option. And was a last resort. The sad part is it is still not settled.

Wondering "how is it not settled"? Has the church voted to disaffiliate? If so, is the district planning on appealing the legal ruling?

[aak1972]

The lawsuit was to have the vote thrown out since the pastor violated several bylaws. If the pastor would have done things properly this would not have been an issue.

[aak1972]

And after the election the pastor refused any meetings with the board members that disagreed with him. His claim was since disaffilated the he did not have to abide by an bylaws.

[aak1972]

The point is the pastor is the one that refused any kind of meetings to bring the church into agreement. He now has a membership letter that you have to sign and part of it says you have to agree with him on every issue. That does not mean just on Biblical issues. You have to agree with him on issues such as paint colors and other trivial matters.

[staysharp]

And after the election the pastor refused any meetings with the board members that disagreed with him. His claim was since disaffilated the he did not have to abide by an bylaws.

thanks, i know these people and for some strange reason they feel the need to be a part of an emerging ultra con organization. I loved Bro. Triplett, he was such a fine godly man. Its a good thing he isn't here to see the mess. I'm sure Sis. Triplett is horrified.

[staysharp]

The point is the pastor is the one that refused any kind of meetings to bring the church into agreement. He now has a membership letter that you have to sign and part of it says you have to agree with him on every issue. That does not mean just on Biblical issues. You have to agree with him on issues such as paint colors and other trivial matters.

very sad. "too much ego makes one crazy"

[staysharp]

The lawsuit was to have the vote thrown out since the pastor violated several bylaws. If the pastor would have done things properly this would not have been an issue.

truthfully, church bylaws are only as good as those who are participating. secular courts never get involved in internal church matters. Bylaws are not designed to be taken to court, they are there as a matter of courtesy to those seeking membership.

[tstew]

I'm sorry, but I have seen too many people use and abuse the "you can't take me to court" defense too often. I honestly cannot say that I would allow someone to knowingly and with premeditation do wrong and hide behind this principle. At what point does someone quit living up to their role as a covenent brother. The law is for the lawless....

[testimony]

I think that the whole incident is unfortunate, and I side with the church on the matter. However, Jesus said not "to take your brother to court" not in the context of church affairs, but in the context of Israel being occupied by Rome. If you took your Jewish brother to court, it could mean death. The circumstances of the church are different than Israel.

Russ

[IsolatedSaint]

I hate church boards....

Your right in feeling this way.......what we are seeing here is a full blown manifestation of unscriptural church government and the inherit and potential evils of being a 501c3 incorporated church. Shame, shame, shame.

BTW I didn't know that the UPCI operated a similar type church govt. as the AOG, COG, and other trinitarian denominations where they vote the pastors out or in.....oh well.....

[aak1972]

Isolated, This church has always voted and most churches that I know of do. How else do you find pastor when you need one? Is your pastor appointed or is he the founding pastor?

[deltaguitar]

Looks like this thread is about to get interesting.

[Stephanas]

I think that the whole incident is unfortunate, and I side with the church on the matter. However, Jesus said not "to take your brother to court" not in the context of church affairs, but in the context of Israel being occupied by Rome. If you took your Jewish brother to court, it could mean death. The circumstances of the church are different than Israel.

Russ


Here is the Scripture under discussion (Hint: the words aren't in red):

1 Cor 6:1-8
Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren!
NKJV

[Amos]

The bottom line is this--

The pastor may not have been very wiseto disaffiliate with such a slim margin in favor, but the fact is he had a legal business meeting and the vote passed.

And regardless of how you would like to explain it away, the Book still makes it plain that we are not to take one another to court.

So while the man may be guilty of a lack of wisdom, good judgement, etc. there is NO justification for taking this to court--not in God's economy.

[Amos]

Here is the Scripture under discussion (Hint: the words aren't in red):

1 Cor 6:1-8
Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren!
NKJV



Uh oh...somebody done went and got their Bible open.

[Stephanas]

Uh oh...somebody done went and got their Bible open.

Here's the part of that post that I deleted before I posted:

Emperor

I admire the way that you have taken wisps of fiction and woven them into a coat of facts. And, you wear it so well. Bravo, Emperor, Bravo.

[aak1972]

Amos there is also no justification for a pastor being so deceptive. There is no justification for kicking board members off that do not agree with him. There is no justification in firing the secretary of 30 years b/c her husband was one of the board members. I could go one for hours. The board members simply wanted another vote. One that was anounced as such and not just as a simple business meeting. He was very deceptive about the WPF. Like I said I could continue for hours.

[deltaguitar]

Amos there is also no justification for a pastor being so deceptive. There is no justification for kicking board members off that do not agree with him. There is no justification in firing the secretary of 30 years b/c her husband was one of the board members. I could go one for hours. The board members simply wanted another vote. One that was anounced as such and not just as a simple business meeting. He was very deceptive about the WPF. Like I said I could continue for hours.

The spirit of these guys who run with the WPF crowd is that they have to take charge of the church and let the people know who is boss. I have seen good pastors with tons of potential basically recruited by these guys and the result is almost always most of the people leaving the church.

They love to find a preacher or minister and manipulate them by making them feel powerful and needed and they start filling their heads with things like, "standing for holiness," "old time religion," and remember your "heritage." Before you know it these guys damage their church, leave the "evil" UPC, and are left with three or four families who just don't have the strength to leave. I know good men who have gotten caught up with this crowd and the crazy stuff you I hear them preaching about just amazes me.

It is a very damaging form of toxic faith that these guys get pulled into.

[aak1972]

I agree delta. This man I do believe has been promised a position in this fellowship and his wife already has one. I believe what the former pastor said on here on page 4 about the WPF targeting this facility. If they could use this property to secure a loan. 4.5 million would be good startup capitol for a new oginization!!

[staysharp]

The spirit of these guys who run with the WPF crowd is that they have to take charge of the church and let the people know who is boss. I have seen good pastors with tons of potential basically recruited by these guys and the result is almost always most of the people leaving the church.

They love to find a preacher or minister and manipulate them by making them feel powerful and needed and they start filling their heads with things like, "standing for holiness," "old time religion," and remember your "heritage." Before you know it these guys damage their church, leave the "evil" UPC, and are left with three or four families who just don't have the strength to leave. I know good men who have gotten caught up with this crowd and the crazy stuff you I hear them preaching about just amazes me.

It is a very damaging form of toxic faith that these guys get pulled into.

Toxic Faith? Wonder where you got that from?

[IsolatedSaint]

Isolated, This church has always voted and most churches that I know of do. How else do you find pastor when you need one? Is your pastor appointed or is he the founding pastor?

My only familiarity with this sort of thing was back years ago when i was in Bible College of a trinitarian pentecostal denomination(IPCC)and there was the pastor of the campus bible college who was voted out(not for any improprieties, just was perceived as not being able to preach good/sermons were dead etc.).

I've mostly attended churches or had pastors who were the founding pastors of their respective ministries.

[aak1972]

I can see the point on both sides of the voting for a pastor issue. But on the issue of this church in question. The members were led to believe that they would not be a member of any orginization. If this is the case and say the pastor dies how does the church then go about the daily business. The board will no longer exist so who will sign checks and pay bills. How then will they find a new pastor.

[the Bishop]

The Lord spoke to me 31 years ago in S.C. to come to Ar. to start a work and has blessed it wonderfully. I began to watch a young man when he was about 10 after being told he played church tapes to go to sleep by at night. His father was not Saved and the boy suffered persecution to some degree for his dedication to things about the Lord.
At one point when his family lived in a congested neighborhood someone did not like the church tape he had playing after he went to bed and threw a brick at his window. I told him to get some head phones that some people just hate for anything like the message of Jesus to remind them that a day of reckoning is coming.
At 15 the young man was Baptized in Jesus Name and filled with the Holy Ghost. Jesus gave him a wonderful mind of wisdom and he graduated in 2000 at the level of number 1 out of a class of 300 as Valedictorian. went on to graduate Summa cum Laude. with a 4.0 GPA in Computer Science and is employed with Acxion Corp. as a software developer.
He was Ordained as a Minister in The Church of The Lord Jesus Christ of The Apostolic Faith in 2002 while still in College and is now the Assistant Pastor of the Assembly where he grew up. knows and understands all the Doctrine and lives a Holy and Dedicated life for Jesus.
I am up in years and the work of the Lord is dear to me but I have reached the place where I know someone else must pick up the load and continue to run this race until we all meet Jesus in peace.
In answer to the question about picking a Pastor, I make no claim to have the perfect solution. but would like to say this is the way I chose to do it. my first concern was to make sure I chose someone in whom all the members of his Body who assemble in this location both Knew and had confidence in this new Pastor. they have watched his life for 27 years now and know him well as does he know them.
The rest is in the Hands of Him of whom it is written that He is Able to keep that which I have commited unto his care.
the Bishop

[MissBrattified]

The Lord spoke to me 31 years ago in S.C. to come to Ar. to start a work and has blessed it wonderfully. I began to watch a young man when he was about 10 after being told he played church tapes to go to sleep by at night. His father was not Saved and the boy suffered persecution to some degree for his dedication to things about the Lord.
At one point when his family lived in a congested neighborhood someone did not like the church tape he had playing after he went to bed and threw a brick at his window. I told him to get some head phones that some people just hate for anything like the message of Jesus to remind them that a day of reckoning is coming.
At 15 the young man was Baptized in Jesus Name and filled with the Holy Ghost. Jesus gave him a wonderful mind of wisdom and he graduated in 2000 at the level of number 1 out of a class of 300 as Valedictorian. went on to graduate Summa cum Laude. with a 4.0 GPA in Computer Science and is employed with Acxion Corp. as a software developer.
He was Ordained as a Minister in The Church of The Lord Jesus Christ of The Apostolic Faith in 2002 while still in College and is now the Assistant Pastor of the Assembly where he grew up. knows and understands all the Doctrine and lives a Holy and Dedicated life for Jesus.
I am up in years and the work of the Lord is dear to me but I have reached the place where I know someone else must pick up the load and continue to run this race until we all meet Jesus in peace.
In answer to the question about picking a Pastor, I make no claim to have the perfect solution. but would like to say this is the way I chose to do it. my first concern was to make sure I chose someone in whom all the members of his Body who assemble in this location both Knew and had confidence in this new Pastor. they have watched his life for 27 years now and know him well as does he know them.
The rest is in the Hands of Him of whom it is written that He is Able to keep that which I have commited unto his care.
the Bishop

Are you the pastor of the church in question? :coffee2

[Rhoni]

I can see the point on both sides of the voting for a pastor issue. But on the issue of this church in question. The members were led to believe that they would not be a member of any orginization. If this is the case and say the pastor dies how does the church then go about the daily business. The board will no longer exist so who will sign checks and pay bills. How then will they find a new pastor.

There will always be a man willing to take a church...and his wife would be glad to handle the money:roseglasses

[deltaguitar]

The Lord spoke to me 31 years ago in S.C. to come to Ar. to start a work and has blessed it wonderfully. I began to watch a young man when he was about 10 after being told he played church tapes to go to sleep by at night. His father was not Saved and the boy suffered persecution to some degree for his dedication to things about the Lord.
At one point when his family lived in a congested neighborhood someone did not like the church tape he had playing after he went to bed and threw a brick at his window. I told him to get some head phones that some people just hate for anything like the message of Jesus to remind them that a day of reckoning is coming.
At 15 the young man was Baptized in Jesus Name and filled with the Holy Ghost. Jesus gave him a wonderful mind of wisdom and he graduated in 2000 at the level of number 1 out of a class of 300 as Valedictorian. went on to graduate Summa cum Laude. with a 4.0 GPA in Computer Science and is employed with Acxion Corp. as a software developer.
He was Ordained as a Minister in The Church of The Lord Jesus Christ of The Apostolic Faith in 2002 while still in College and is now the Assistant Pastor of the Assembly where he grew up. knows and understands all the Doctrine and lives a Holy and Dedicated life for Jesus.
I am up in years and the work of the Lord is dear to me but I have reached the place where I know someone else must pick up the load and continue to run this race until we all meet Jesus in peace.
In answer to the question about picking a Pastor, I make no claim to have the perfect solution. but would like to say this is the way I chose to do it. my first concern was to make sure I chose someone in whom all the members of his Body who assemble in this location both Knew and had confidence in this new Pastor. they have watched his life for 27 years now and know him well as does he know them.
The rest is in the Hands of Him of whom it is written that He is Able to keep that which I have commited unto his care.
the Bishop
True, we have to trust the next generation to lead. Yes, he might make mistakes but so does everyone. I think that if we just lay our ego aside and truly try to do the work of Christ then these issues won't be a real problem.

However, what if this man becomes pastor and decides that he doesn't always agree with the doctrine or that standards don't really matter anymore and that reaching the lost is the most important goal. What then? Will he be trusted or will folks come in to rescue the church from all the new converts?

[Rhoni]

Are you the pastor of the church in question? :coffee2


Good question.:evilglee

[aak1972]

Good question.:evilglee

I can answer that. No he is not. First of all I know the pastor there and second if you read the post this Bishop is in Arkansas the church in question is in Mississippi.

[Rhoni]

I can answer that. No he is not. First of all I know the pastor there and second if you read the post this Bishop is in Arkansas the church in question is in Mississippi.

LOL...I was not talking about the bishop. I know who he is...it is you that I don't know and wondering what your vested interest in the church is?

Blessings, Rhoni

[deltaguitar]

I can answer that. No he is not. First of all I know the pastor there and second if you read the post this Bishop is in Arkansas the church in question is in Mississippi.

You know back when our church was going through a split we started a thread here on AFF about it and a board member threatened to sue us and then had the district board involved. We got my pastor in all kind of trouble because we started posting things on here.

These folks had such big egos that they actually thought people knew who they were though we mentioned no names.

[Rhoni]

You know back when our church was going through a split we started a thread here on AFF about it and a board member threatened to sue us and then had the district board involved. We got my pastor in all kind of trouble because we started posting things on here.

These folks had such big egos that they actually thought people knew who they were though we mentioned no names.

It is a small world we live in Bro. People really do know who we are talking about at times:friend

[MissBrattified]

I can answer that. No he is not. First of all I know the pastor there and second if you read the post this Bishop is in Arkansas the church in question is in Mississippi.

Oh, true. I missed that.

[the Bishop]

Delta:
In answer to the possible problem you proposed arising the Church does have a complete set of By-laws recorded and legally binding if necessary on any Minister who preaches in our assemblies. it also has a board of Elders who collectively represent many years of labor in this Gospel unto which any question concerning a problem may be submitted. someone in my position are able to do only so much in a effort to insure the true stability and direction that the Body will travel. my sincere Prayer to God is that He will see my efforts and intervene should He see any faltering in its course.
Thank you for your comments. and I also wish to thank Rhoni for her quick eye and perception here and offering a clarification of this issue

[aak1972]

LOL...I was not talking about the bishop. I know who he is...it is you that I don't know and wondering what your vested interest in the church is?

Blessings, Rhoni

I spent 30 years in that church. I watched my father work at his regular job and then weld half the night on the metal beams everyone else was to scared to climb on. I watched as we sacrificed material things so we could meet our building fund goals. I was educated in the christian school at this church. I watched as my best friends father and the pastor at that time poured his very last breath into that building as he died of cancer. I do not have the space to tell you all my vested intrest.

[staysharp]

I spent 30 years in that church. I watched my father work at his regular job and then weld half the night on the metal beams everyone else was to scared to climb on. I watched as we sacrificed material things so we could meet our building fund goals. I was educated in the christian school at this church. I watched as my best friends father and the pastor at that time poured his very last breath into that building as he died of cancer. I do not have the space to tell you all my vested intrest.

While I appreciate your dedication, all I hear is a commitment and dedication to a building. This is what this is all about, a building...

I have watched lifelong relationships destroyed over buildings. The kingdom of man. If Christians would behave as such, a building would be irrelevant. This gospel is not a building, tradition or an organization.

God does not dwell any longer in temples made of hands.

[deltaguitar]

I spent 30 years in that church. I watched my father work at his regular job and then weld half the night on the metal beams everyone else was to scared to climb on. I watched as we sacrificed material things so we could meet our building fund goals. I was educated in the christian school at this church. I watched as my best friends father and the pastor at that time poured his very last breath into that building as he died of cancer. I do not have the space to tell you all my vested intrest.

Well, lets just say I know exactly what you went through. In fact, all you need to to is get on Hwy 61 and drive about 2 1/2 hours north and cross over to Hwy 1 South in Greenville, MS. There is a grand looking church right on the highway that I spent 27 years of my life. I was on the platform for 10 of those years learning how to play guitar and I graduated from the school.

And I don't miss it at all.

[aak1972]

While I appreciate your dedication, all I hear is a commitment and dedication to a building. This is what this is all about, a building...

I have watched lifelong relationships destroyed over buildings. The kingdom of man. If Christians would behave as such, a building would be irrelevant. This gospel is not a building, tradition or an organization.

God does not dwell any longer in temples made of hands.

So I agree with you partially. Would you fight for your house if someone tried to take it from you. A building is always revelant when it is a dream of a church to build one. Like I said this building was a vision of the whole church in 1982. So for someone to come in and wanna seemingly take it out of thier hands is seemingly a crime. And when I say thier I mean the people that are still there that built the church. It is amazing that the vote was along the lines of this. The old members voted to stay UPC the newer ones voted to dissafiliate.

[the Bishop]

I spent 30 years in that church. I watched my father work at his regular job and then weld half the night on the metal beams everyone else was to scared to climb on. I watched as we sacrificed material things so we could meet our building fund goals. I was educated in the christian school at this church. I watched as my best friends father and the pastor at that time poured his very last breath into that building as he died of cancer. I do not have the space to tell you all my vested intrest.

AAK,
I wept as I read your reply. why? for I have seen what you spoke of happen many times over. it is a sad day indeed to see a work that one has labored in as you spoke of turn out to be destroyed by someone who has this worlds goods at heart instead of Jesus.
I climed the beams and did the welding on the building I spoke of in my post. that is one reason why I tried to make sure the assembly continues on a straight course for Jesus. the core members of that assembly can point out where every nail and sheetrock seam should be. we built it block by block , board by board, shingle by shingle, and finally brick by brick etc. etc.
Since we had 7,000 brick to lay we checked with a bricklayer and he said if we furnished the brick, sand ,and mortar, he would lay the brick for $1,00 per brick. I told him he had just put the brethern in the bricklaying buisness. only one man among us had ever laid a brick. but with the Lords help we finished the building and had trained 5 new bricklayers.
No I wasn't one of them, I mixed and carried the mortar to the brethern. but we have had many compliments on our work. so I just say Jesus is a good bricklayer lol
peace be unto you

[deltaguitar]

So I agree with you partially. Would you fight for your house if someone tried to take it from you. A building is always revelant when it is a dream of a church to build one. Like I said this building was a vision of the whole church in 1982. So for someone to come in and wanna seemingly take it out of thier hands is seemingly a crime. And when I say thier I mean the people that are still there that built the church. It is amazing that the vote was along the lines of this. The old members voted to stay UPC the newer ones voted to dissafiliate.

Wow, even the dates are the same.

Well, does it really change the church at all to get out of the UPC. It sounds like a bad idea but really, does it matter? Trust me, after knowing all about the MS district the best things this church could do is get out why they still have the chance.

[staysharp]

So I agree with you partially. Would you fight for your house if someone tried to take it from you. A building is always revelant when it is a dream of a church to build one. Like I said this building was a vision of the whole church in 1982. So for someone to come in and wanna seemingly take it out of thier hands is seemingly a crime. And when I say thier I mean the people that are still there that built the church. It is amazing that the vote was along the lines of this. The old members voted to stay UPC the newer ones voted to dissafiliate.

I sympathize with you having gone through this myself. However, I personally decided to leave and trust the Lord for a new building and God has supplied the need immediately.

When you fight among saints and render evil for evil, you come into agreement with the offense. Both parties loose because they end up becoming just like one another.

[aak1972]

AAK,
I wept as I read your reply. why? for I have seen what you spoke of happen many times over. it is a sad day indeed to see a work that one has labored in as you spoke of turn out to be destroyed by someone who has this worlds goods at heart instead of Jesus.
I climed the beams and did the welding on the building I spoke of in my post. that is one reason why I tried to make sure the assembly continues on a straight course for Jesus. the core members of that assembly can point out where every nail and sheetrock seam should be. we built it block by block , board by board, shingle by shingle, and finally brick by brick etc. etc.
Since we had 7,000 brick to lay we checked with a bricklayer and he said if we furnished the brick, sand ,and mortar, he would lay the brick for $1,00 per brick. I told him he had just put the brethern in the bricklaying buisness. only one man among us had ever laid a brick. but with the Lords help we finished the building and had trained 5 new bricklayers.
No I wasn't one of them, I mixed and carried the mortar to the brethern. but we have had many compliments on our work. so I just say Jesus is a good bricklayer lol
peace be unto you

Thanks for your understanding. Very few people on here have seemingly been through a building program. I do not understand how a pastor can ignore the founding members of a church. 57 years of UPC and that is done away with by 58% aproval and 11% absent I will never understand.

[the Bishop]

Delta,
Do you by any chance know a Minister by the name of Forest Rhodes?

[StMark]

My older brother almost single handedly built our 1st church and had much to do with the second and our final one. So I do understand the feelings expressed here.

As hard as it is, it's important to not let our emotions get tied up in brick and mortar alone. When we get involved in the work of God, we have to keep reminding ourselves that all of this is temporal. People come and go, die off, things change over time, things happen in churches. If we don't kep it in perspective, we can set ourselves up for devestation.

Delta Guitar knows that our neighboring church had the most shattering church split back in the 90s that ended up in death threats and family splits, it was a total nightmare. Again, we just have to gaurd ourselves that we do not attach our emotions to our labor & buildings to the point that it potentially destroys our souls

God is a wonderful pay master. he's taking everything into account and will reward us with a crown of life.

We need to remember to keep things SIMPLE. church is just a meeting place for believers. the building is not the church. It's the anointing and the glory that most important.

[the Bishop]

Sorry I ask the wrong person my question, I meant to address the question to you AAK, I am trying to get information on Brother Rhodes who lost everything on earth he had in hurricane katrina. we were able to send him an offering but have since lost contact as he has no computer or IP right now.
His Pastor and his daughter were killed in that storm and everything he had destroyed. I have never met the Brother, but messaged with him on a MSN message board and I am concerned about his welfare even yet. he was originally in Moss Point Ms. not sure where he is now.
If anyone knows of his condition or how to get help to him please post it.
Thank you and Peace be unto you

[Jethro Bodine]

Wow, even the dates are the same.

Well, does it really change the church at all to get out of the UPC. It sounds like a bad idea but really, does it matter? Trust me, after knowing all about the MS district the best things this church could do is get out why they still have the chance.

I think it all depends on your destination. I don't think the WPF is a place that many would like to go.

[deltaguitar]

I think it all depends on your destination. I don't think the WPF is a place that many would like to go.

I would run away from this group as fast as possible. They are :crazy

[Stephanas]

My older brother almost single handedly built our 1st church and had much to do with the second and our final one. So I do understand the feelings expressed here.

As hard as it is, it's important to not let our emotions get tied up in brick and mortar alone. When we get involved in the work of God, we have to keep reminding ourselves that all of this is temporal. People come and go, die off, things change over time, things happen in churches. If we don't kep it in perspective, we can set ourselves up for devestation.

Delta Guitar knows that our neighboring church had the most shattering church split back in the 90s that ended up in death threats and family splits, it was a total nightmare. Again, we just have to gaurd ourselves that we do not attach our emotions to our labor & buildings to the point that it potentially destroys our souls

God is a wonderful pay master. he's taking everything into account and will reward us with a crown of life.

We need to remember to keep things SIMPLE. church is just a meeting place for believers. the building is not the church. It's the anointing and the glory that most important.

Very well put.

Not one seam welded is ever lost to us. Our reward is in Heaven.

All of these building will only be a fading memory before long.

[Amos]

Amos there is also no justification for a pastor being so deceptive. There is no justification for kicking board members off that do not agree with him. There is no justification in firing the secretary of 30 years b/c her husband was one of the board members. I could go one for hours. The board members simply wanted another vote. One that was anounced as such and not just as a simple business meeting. He was very deceptive about the WPF. Like I said I could continue for hours.

You may be right about every bit of that for all I know. I have no idea.

But even if you are, two wrongs don't make a right.

If that pastor did wrong, there is a God in heaven who will tend to him far more decisively and effectively than any court or judge on this earth.

But suing him against the Scripture is also going to have to be accounted for.

It isn't right.

[aak1972]

You may be right about every bit of that for all I know. I have no idea.

But even if you are, two wrongs don't make a right.

If that pastor did wrong, there is a God in heaven who will tend to him far more decisively and effectively than any court or judge on this earth.

But suing him against the Scripture is also going to have to be accounted for.

It isn't right.

We all know he will be judged in that time. What would you suggest the board members and saints do? I do not think this group of people should just walk away and let him have his way. I do beleive that a true pastor would ever have led a congregation into a situation he knew would cause a church split.

[Amos]

We all know he will be judged in that time. What would you suggest the board members and saints do? I do not think this group of people should just walk away and let him have his way. I do beleive that a true pastor would ever have led a congregation into a situation he knew would cause a church split.


Argue with the Word, not me.

Whether he did right or not, suing him is a sin. Period.

Two wrongs never make aright, and his actions, whatever they might have been, do not justify violating the Scripture.

So, yes, walking away and leaving it in God's hands is exactly what they should do.

That may not seem fair to our carnal minds, but it is the Bible way.

[tbpew]

Argue with the Word, not me.

Whether he did right or not, suing him is a sin. Period.

Two wrongs never make aright, and his actions, whatever they might have been, do not justify violating the Scripture.

So, yes, walking away and leaving it in God's hands is exactly what they should do.

That may not seem fair to our carnal minds, but it is the Bible way.

I thought the bible way to was to judge the matter among ourselves by having the least esteemed person from among the assembly do the judging.

I wonder if we understand that we will judge the world?
Where did our unworthiness to judge such small matters come from?
I wonder how we will judge angels when judging an allegedly errant human in the church is something we should walk away from?

I hope none of us are arguing with the word by just walking away from judging a matter?

[stmatthew]

I have stated this elsewhere, but will do so here as well.

If the Pastor was leading the church into false doctrine, I could understand fighting it. But the man (from my understanding) has not changed doctrine. He still believes Acts 2:38 is essential for salvation. So this is not a fight over spiritual issues, but over carnal issues.

The sad fact is that some believe that because they have done what they were supposed to for years, and supported the work of God, that now that a minister has come in and is leading the church the way he believes God would have him do so, they believe they should have a say so. I disagree with this mentality. If you trusted the man enough to vote him in as Pastor, and you trusted him enough to lead your carcass out of Egypt, why are you now mumbling and complaining. Follow the Man of God and let him lead, or go find you a Pastor that you can follow.

[Amos]

I thought the bible way to was to judge the matter among ourselves by having the least esteemed person from among the assembly do the judging.

I wonder if we understand that we will judge the world?
Where did our unworthiness to judge such small matters come from?
I wonder how we will judge angels when judging an allegedly errant human in the church is something we should walk away from?

I hope none of us are arguing with the word by just walking away from judging a matter?

Good thoughts.

[Straightline]

1 Cor 6:7-8
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.


"See that ye fall not out by the way"
Straightline

[Steve Epley]

I hope everyone reading knows there are two sides at least to every story. What if some older members were just throwing a fit because the present pastor has welcomed blacks into the church and this other stuff is a smoke screen? This is Mississippi?

[jtork]

I hope everyone reading knows there are two sides at least to every story. What if some older members were just throwing a fit because the present pastor has welcomed blacks into the church and this other stuff is a smoke screen? This is Mississippi?

That was a dumb comment Steve Epley - you know most of you people are a bunch of the reason there are backsliders in Penetcost! On here quoting scripture about suing someone in one post and then gossiping about it in the next - bunch of hypocrites is what most of you are on here and Ministier WD who started this I sure hope you do not actually consider yourself a "minister"! Most of you on here have no idea what you are talking about - just running your mouth. Please tell me what church you all go to so I will be sure NOT to ever be a member there!

[jtork]

I have stated this elsewhere, but will do so here as well.

If the Pastor was leading the church into false doctrine, I could understand fighting it. But the man (from my understanding) has not changed doctrine. He still believes Acts 2:38 is essential for salvation. So this is not a fight over spiritual issues, but over carnal issues.

The sad fact is that some believe that because they have done what they were supposed to for years, and supported the work of God, that now that a minister has come in and is leading the church the way he believes God would have him do so, they believe they should have a say so. I disagree with this mentality. If you trusted the man enough to vote him in as Pastor, and you trusted him enough to lead your carcass out of Egypt, why are you now mumbling and complaining. Follow the Man of God and let him lead, or go find you a Pastor that you can follow.

Well - I think that is one of the problems with pentecost - there should be more to "doctrine" than just Acts 2:38 - that is the mentality of a lot of people - well he is preaching speaking in tounges and baptism in Jesus Name so I guess we should just support him in everything he does - that is a CULT mentality!

[aak1972]

I have stated this elsewhere, but will do so here as well.

If the Pastor was leading the church into false doctrine, I could understand fighting it. But the man (from my understanding) has not changed doctrine. He still believes Acts 2:38 is essential for salvation. So this is not a fight over spiritual issues, but over carnal issues.

The sad fact is that some believe that because they have done what they were supposed to for years, and supported the work of God, that now that a minister has come in and is leading the church the way he believes God would have him do so, they believe they should have a say so. I disagree with this mentality. If you trusted the man enough to vote him in as Pastor, and you trusted him enough to lead your carcass out of Egypt, why are you now mumbling and complaining. Follow the Man of God and let him lead, or go find you a Pastor that you can follow.
This would not be an issue if the pastor had done things properly. If he feels that this indeed the direction he should go why use such deceptive tactics.

[aak1972]

I hope everyone reading knows there are two sides at least to every story. What if some older members were just throwing a fit because the present pastor has welcomed blacks into the church and this other stuff is a smoke screen? This is Mississippi?

Steve sometimes one should gather as much information on a topic before speaking. There have been blacks in that church since I know 1995. About 75% of my 4000 clients are black and most of them do not want to go to a "white" church.

[aak1972]

Well - I think that is one of the problems with pentecost - there should be more to "doctrine" than just Acts 2:38 - that is the mentality of a lot of people - well he is preaching speaking in tounges and baptism in Jesus Name so I guess we should just support him in everything he does - that is a CULT mentality!

I agree I cant find anywhere that you have to agree with your pastor on every issue. The Bible says not to question the annointing not the annointed. This kind of mentallity this pastor has leads to dictatorship. I personally know of pastors who have to approve of everything members purchase. That is not Biblical. So why support a man who is leaning heavily that direction. There is way more to this than just disaffiliation.

[MissBrattified]

My older brother almost single handedly built our 1st church and had much to do with the second and our final one. So I do understand the feelings expressed here.

As hard as it is, it's important to not let our emotions get tied up in brick and mortar alone. When we get involved in the work of God, we have to keep reminding ourselves that all of this is temporal. People come and go, die off, things change over time, things happen in churches. If we don't kep it in perspective, we can set ourselves up for devestation.

Delta Guitar knows that our neighboring church had the most shattering church split back in the 90s that ended up in death threats and family splits, it was a total nightmare. Again, we just have to gaurd ourselves that we do not attach our emotions to our labor & buildings to the point that it potentially destroys our souls

God is a wonderful pay master. he's taking everything into account and will reward us with a crown of life.

We need to remember to keep things SIMPLE. church is just a meeting place for believers. the building is not the church. It's the anointing and the glory that most important.

Wow, Mark. GREAT post! :thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup

[MissBrattified]

That was a dumb comment Steve Epley - you know most of you people are a bunch of the reason there are backsliders in Penetcost! On here quoting scripture about suing someone in one post and then gossiping about it in the next - bunch of hypocrites is what most of you are on here and Ministier WD who started this I sure hope you do not actually consider yourself a "minister"! Most of you on here have no idea what you are talking about - just running your mouth. Please tell me what church you all go to so I will be sure NOT to ever be a member there!

I think it was a question--not a statement of fact. Your reaction is a little visceral. Are you directly involved in this situation?

Look, I know that if it came right down to it what OUR family would do. That is all I can look at. We're attached to the people we go to church with, but I couldn't care LESS about the building. Unless there is a LOT more to this than meets the eye, we would just cut our losses and walk away. And I can't imagine what could be involved that would stop us from doing that.

We wouldn't want our family embroiled in church troubles anyway. No way would we stay in a church with this kind of conflict, with our children there as witnesses.

Sometimes you just lose. It's okay to lose. God will pick up the slack.

[aak1972]

My older brother almost single handedly built our 1st church and had much to do with the second and our final one. So I do understand the feelings expressed here.

As hard as it is, it's important to not let our emotions get tied up in brick and mortar alone. When we get involved in the work of God, we have to keep reminding ourselves that all of this is temporal. People come and go, die off, things change over time, things happen in churches. If we don't kep it in perspective, we can set ourselves up for devestation.

Delta Guitar knows that our neighboring church had the most shattering church split back in the 90s that ended up in death threats and family splits, it was a total nightmare. Again, we just have to gaurd ourselves that we do not attach our emotions to our labor & buildings to the point that it potentially destroys our souls

God is a wonderful pay master. he's taking everything into account and will reward us with a crown of life.

We need to remember to keep things SIMPLE. church is just a meeting place for believers. the building is not the church. It's the anointing and the glory that most important.

I agree with you some. But Jesus ran the buyers and sellers out of the church for thier actions inside the temple he did not just walk away and find another building. In your way of thinking If someone wanted to change the American flag you would be ok with it b/c its only a symbol. The actual feelings and liberties it stands for really lie in the hearts of the veterans. Just a question to try to understand your point more.

[jtork]

I think it was a question--not a statement of fact. Your reaction is a little visceral. Are you directly involved in this situation?

Look, I know that if it came right down to it what OUR family would do. That is all I can look at. We're attached to the people we go to church with, but I couldn't care LESS about the building. Unless there is a LOT more to this than meets the eye, we would just cut our losses and walk away. And I can't imagine what could be involved that would stop us from doing that.

We wouldn't want our family embroiled in church troubles anyway. No way would we stay in a church with this kind of conflict, with our children there as witnesses.

Sometimes you just lose. It's okay to lose. God will pick up the slack.


I realize it was not a statement of fact but it was also not just an innocent question - it was a stupid comment that should not have been made.

I went to that church for 30 years and thankfully I left before that pastor got there. I have plenty of relatives that still go there and an uncle that is on the board (or should I say used to be on the board before he was kicked off) - and the bottom line - the board memebers wanted to have a meeting with him to talk about the situation and he refused to meet with them and appointed himself a new board - OH and the new church treasurer he appointed can't even read and write unless he has learned in the past few years - He was very sneaky and deceptive with the whole deal but by golly he preaches Acts 2:38 - so we need to support him!

[aak1972]

I think it was a question--not a statement of fact. Your reaction is a little visceral. Are you directly involved in this situation?

Look, I know that if it came right down to it what OUR family would do. That is all I can look at. We're attached to the people we go to church with, but I couldn't care LESS about the building. Unless there is a LOT more to this than meets the eye, we would just cut our losses and walk away. And I can't imagine what could be involved that would stop us from doing that.

We wouldn't want our family embroiled in church troubles anyway. No way would we stay in a church with this kind of conflict, with our children there as witnesses.

Sometimes you just lose. It's okay to lose. God will pick up the slack.

Some of these folks like me have way to many memories and ties to the building. My grandfather had to put his name on the mortgage as one of the board members. People died building that church. So in my opinion they have every right to disagree with some egotistical man from California who has been in this city for 4 years. That building has been a symbol of the UPC not only in our city but throughout the entire south. So I think if you will not fight for something that you put forth blood sweat and tears into and something that is tangible you will be to spineless to fight for anything.

[MissBrattified]

I agree with you some. But Jesus ran the buyers and sellers out of the church for thier actions inside the temple he did not just walk away and find another building. In your way of thinking If someone wanted to change the American flag you would be ok with it b/c its only a symbol. The actual feelings and liberties it stands for really lie in the hearts of the veterans. Just a question to try to understand your point more.

He was Jesus. He could see hearts, therefore He could make judgments about their hearts and react accordingly. He had the right to bring about judgment, call them hypocrites, and to call attention to what was in their hearts. No human has the ability to see in a man's heart, or react as if he/she has that ability. (E.g., pronounce judgment accordingly)

So the example of Jesus in the temple doesn't apply, because NONE of us would ever qualify to wreak that kind of havoc.


I also agree that we have the right to "judge a matter" among ourselves. That is different from pronouncing judgment upon another person, and going through the church with a (figurative) whip. In this case, though, several people have said that taking the matter to court was a last resort, and that biblical avenues had already been exhausted. Therefore, it is apparent that judging the matter amongst the church didn't work. After that, the only recourse is to walk away. IMO, anyway.

[aak1972]

He was Jesus. He could see hearts, therefore He could make judgments about their hearts and react accordingly. He had the right to bring about judgment, call them hypocrites, and to call attention to what was in their hearts. No human has the ability to see in a man's heart, or react as if he/she has that ability. (E.g., pronounce judgment accordingly)

So the example of Jesus in the temple doesn't apply, because NONE of us would ever qualify to wreak that kind of havoc.


I also agree that we have the right to "judge a matter" among ourselves. That is different from pronouncing judgment upon another person, and going through the church with a (figurative) whip. In this case, though, several people have said that taking the matter to court was a last resort, and that biblical avenues had already been exhausted. Therefore, it is apparent that judging the matter amongst the church didn't work. After that, the only recourse is to walk away. IMO, anyway.

So if someone decieves your lender or if thier is an error in bookeeping and your lender forecloses on your home that you built with your own hands you would walk away?

[MissBrattified]

Some of these folks like me have way to many memories and ties to the building. My grandfather had to put his name on the mortgage as one of the board members. People died building that church. So in my opinion they have every right to disagree with some egotistical man from California who has been in this city for 4 years. That building has been a symbol of the UPC not only in our city but throughout the entire south. So I think if you will not fight for something that you put forth blood sweat and tears into and something that is tangible you will be to spineless to fight for anything.

Thanks for calling me spineless. LOL!!!!

It often takes more courage to let something be than to get into the fight. Human nature is to take what is yours, defend what is yours, and to destroy your enemies.

Defending your family or children or people you love is one thing, but to defend a "thing"? It isn't worth disobeying the Word. Material things ultimately do NOT matter in the larger (eternal) scheme of things. I do not believe that God calls it spineless to walk away from something material, even if it is something you built with your own hands, in order to remain in accordance with His commandments.

We have our human nature, and we have God's Word. When the two disagree, we should give God's Word precedence, and call it courageous to do so. :coffee2

[MissBrattified]

So if someone decieves your lender or if thier is an error in bookeeping and your lender forecloses on your home that you built with your own hands you would walk away?

aak, do you not perceive that there is a difference between church matters and personal matters? Scripture makes it clear that God expects church matters to be handled within the church. As for personal losses--we've suffered them.

You keep arguing, but you really aren't arguing with me. Almost every person on this thread has presented scripture to support their points. Can you present scripture that supports taking legal action against a pastor or brother?

[aak1972]

Thanks for calling me spineless. LOL!!!!

It often takes more courage to let something be than to get into the fight. Human nature is to take what is yours, defend what is yours, and to destroy your enemies.

Defending your family or children or people you love is one thing, but to defend a "thing"? It isn't worth disobeying the Word. Material things ultimately do NOT matter in the larger (eternal) scheme of things. I do not believe that God calls it spineless to walk away from something material, even if it is something you built with your own hands, in order to remain in accordance with His commandments.

We have our human nature, and we have God's Word. When the two disagree, we should give God's Word precedence, and call it courageous to do so. :coffee2

So let me understand you would fight for your home?

[Michael Phelps]

aak, do you not perceive that there is a difference between church matters and personal matters? Scripture makes it clear that God expects church matters to be handled within the church.

You keep arguing, but you really aren't arguing with me. Almost every person on this thread has presented scripture to support their points. Can you present scripture that supports taking legal action against a pastor or brother?

Who needs scripture when you have emotion?

[aak1972]

aak, do you not perceive that there is a difference between church matters and personal matters? Scripture makes it clear that God expects church matters to be handled within the church.

You keep arguing, but you really aren't arguing with me. Almost every person on this thread has presented scripture to support their points. Can you present scripture that supports taking legal action against a pastor or brother?

I am not arguing scripture with you. I cant find any on what to do when a pastor does what this one has done. If you can find one dealing with a deceptive lying pastor let me know please.

[Dimples]

So if someone decieves your lender or if thier is an error in bookeeping and your lender forecloses on your home that you built with your own hands you would walk away?

The key here is "your home", your name is on the deed.

The church is not personally owned by only one person or group of people. I understand the hurt because of the sweat and blood that was shed to build it, but it's not "yours".

[Dimples]

I am not arguing scripture with you. I cant find any on what to do when a pastor does what this one has done. If you can find one dealing with a deceptive lying pastor let me know please.

There are the 10 commandments. Thy shall not lie.

[MissBrattified]

So let me understand you would fight for your home?

I already answered your question. By the way, the home we presently have, we bought from a woman who attends our church. One of the things my husband and I discussed BEFORE we purchased the house was the idea of buying from someone we go to church with. There IS a different dynamic, and if there had been a problem, we would have let it go in her favor, a point which we decided in advance.

I believe in doing business properly, honestly, and shrewdly. I believe in being a good steward. BUT, because the Word DOES mention that we should do business differently with our brothers and sisters, (for the sake of preserving our reputation with the world), then it must be taken into consideration that perhaps those dealings must be dealt with differently. Simply because scripture says so.

[Michael Phelps]

I am not arguing scripture with you. I cant find any on what to do when a pastor does what this one has done. If you can find one dealing with a deceptive lying pastor let me know please.

How about reading the story of Saul and David.

Is your pastor your father-in-law, and has he tried to kill you? Has he thrown a spear across the room at you?

Even then, you don't have Biblical authority to retaliate. Let God handle it.

[MissBrattified]

The key here is "your home", your name is on the deed.

The church is not personally owned by only one person or group of people. I understand the hurt because of the sweat and blood that was shed to build it, but it's not "yours".

Good point, Dimples. Also, I think it is being missed that the "church" is made up of people--not buildings.

[aak1972]

The key here is "your home", your name is on the deed.

The church is not personally owned by only one person or group of people. I understand the hurt because of the sweat and blood that was shed to build it, but it's not "yours".

Please read all my post the board members had to put thier name on the deed and mortgage. And when the church had to have roof repairs and borrowed $112,000 the pastor would not and I mean he flatfoot refused to sign his name to the loan so the board members had to sign thiers. So if this church does not pay this debt the lender will require the guarantors (the board members) to repay this loan.

[MissBrattified]

Please read all my post the board members had to put their name on the deed and mortgage. And when the church had to have roof repairs and borrowed $112,000 the pastor would not and I mean he flatfoot refused to sign his name to the loan so the board members had to sign theirs. So if this church does not pay this debt the lender will require the guarantors (the board members) to repay this loan.

aak, if the board members put their name on the deed and mortgage, then they (along with the rest of the members) are rightfully responsible for any repairs or debts incurred.

What would you prefer? That the pastor alone would be held responsible for the cost of repairs or the church debt?

My husband served on our church board for a 4-year term, and there is definitely a lot of personal responsibility involved, in reference to the church financial obligations.

[aak1972]

aak, if the board members put their name on the deed and mortgage, then they (along with the rest of the members) are rightfully responsible for any repairs or debts incurred.

What would you prefer? That the pastor alone would be held responsible for the cost of repairs oe church debt?

My husband served on our church board for a 4-year term, and there is definitely a lot of personal responsibility involved, in reference to the church financial obligations.

But your telling the people that have made this obligation to walk away, it cannot legally be done. Since the loan is a legal document the secular court has to be involved. The board members that filed the suit are also the baord members that were kicked off the board. But thier name is still on the loan. They want to be removed from the loan. So to do this the court had to be involved. It is also against the Bible to walk away from a loan obligation.This is only one aspect of the suit.

[MissBrattified]

But your telling the people that have made this obligation to walk away, it cannot legally be done. Since the loan is a legal document the secular court has to be involved. The board members that filed the suit are also the board members that were kicked off the board. But their name is still on the loan. They want to be removed from the loan. So to do this the court had to be involved. It is also against the Bible to walk away from a loan obligation.This is only one aspect of the suit.

Are the board members (former or current) wanting the pastor to be solely responsible for the church debt?

[Sherri]

I don't know what makes the difference - maybe it's the way your church corporation is set up. But our deacons have never been personally financially responsible for notes they have signed, according to our bank.

[aak1972]

Are the board members (former or current) wanting the pastor to be solely responsible for the church debt?

No not at all. The board members that voted to stay UPC were kicked off. He said from the pulpit they were evil b/c they didnt support him. So since they are not board members they want off the loan.

[deltaguitar]

Some of these folks like me have way to many memories and ties to the building. My grandfather had to put his name on the mortgage as one of the board members. People died building that church. So in my opinion they have every right to disagree with some egotistical man from California who has been in this city for 4 years. That building has been a symbol of the UPC not only in our city but throughout the entire south. So I think if you will not fight for something that you put forth blood sweat and tears into and something that is tangible you will be to spineless to fight for anything.

I feel sorry for your situation but the truth is that the building is the only thing y'all are fighting over. What if the church hadn't been UPC all these years? What if there was no heritage or legacy? I somehow don't think any of you guys would be worried.

The truth is that your families suffered to build a church that will never be the same again. You have great memories or years gone by that will never ever be the same. I can promise that after this situation it will take years to rebuild if ever.

I am sure we aren't getting the full story and probably never will but the names and faces are different but this is very common. To rebuild this church will need a very strong leader and a man who is not selfish but I seriously doubt the church could attract anyone decent at this stage of the game.

[aak1972]

I don't know what makes the difference - maybe it's the way your church corporation is set up. But our deacons have never been personally financially responsible for notes they have signed, according to our bank.

In my business I have seen many foreclosures. Legally if the lender wants to pursue any guarantor they can. That does not mean they will.

[deltaguitar]

No not at all. The board members that voted to stay UPC were kicked off. He said from the pulpit they were evil b/c they didnt support him. So since they are not board members they want off the loan.

Look, let me give you some advice. All the board members should leave. Obviously they are the ones who are supporting the church anyway. Go across town and start a nondenominational church that is out to minister to your community. Get a decent liberal pastor who is solid on biblical principals and basically go charismatic. In five years y'all will be running a thousand and you will look back at the last 30 years wondering why y'all spent so much energy on a building.

This is what we are doing. There is no greater satisfaction than knowing you aren't tied to a bunch of folks who only care about their perceived legacy in the UPC.

[aak1972]

I feel sorry for your situation but the truth is that the building is the only thing y'all are fighting over. What if the church hadn't been UPC all these years? What if there was no heritage or legacy? I somehow don't think any of you guys would be worried.

The truth is that your families suffered to build a church that will never be the same again. You have great memories or years gone by that will never ever be the same. I can promise that after this situation it will take years to rebuild if ever.

I am sure we aren't getting the full story and probably never will but the names and faces are different but this is very common. To rebuild this church will need a very strong leader and a man who is not selfish but I seriously doubt the church could attract anyone decent at this stage of the game.

You are correct and this will be my last post on this. The pastor has turned in his UPC license. And if the vote stands to disafiliate it will cause a church split. The attendance last Sunday was 110. After the split it will be about 60. It will be impossible to keep the doors open. And that is what I am mad about. A pastor comes in and causes a church split and the dream of many saints that have gone on of having a nice representation of PENTECOST will be gone. There is not another church in this city. There is one about 15 miles away. So after 57 years of having a Pentecostal church here there is a good chance it will be gone due to one pastorate.

[deltaguitar]

You are correct and this will be my last post on this. The pastor has turned in his UPC license. And if the vote stands to disafiliate it will cause a church split. The attendance last Sunday was 110. After the split it will be about 60. It will be impossible to keep the doors open. And that is what I am mad about. A pastor comes in and causes a church split and the dream of many saints that have gone on of having a nice representation of PENTECOST will be gone. There is not another church in this city. There is one about 15 miles away. So after 57 years of having a Pentecostal church here there is a good chance it will be gone due to one pastorate.

Well, don't just blame the pastor. Yes it looks like what he is doing is wrong but God might be using this unfortunate circumstance to free a lot of people from the weight of that building and the stigma in your community that is attached to it. When we left our church we had so many people come to us with their horror stories of our church and how we were perceived. We found out things that would blow your mind. Folks that knew us in the community could never understand how good people were apart of that church.

I was discussing this situation with someone yesterday that knows this church and the pastor and we both wondered if there will be any significant UPC churches in Mississippi in the next twenty or thirty years. It seems like the average church is around 75 people with an elderly population and the larger churches are going through splits with most of the younger generation leaving to become nondenominational or charismatic.

[Whole Hearted]

God bless this good man of God. This is a good man and pastor and God will make away for him and the good people who are following their pastor.

[Rhoni]

Well, don't just blame the pastor. Yes it looks like what he is doing is wrong but God might be using this unfortunate circumstance to free a lot of people from the weight of that building and the stigma in your community that is attached to it. When we left our church we had so many people come to us with their horror stories of our church and how we were perceived. We found out things that would blow your mind. Folks that knew us in the community could never understand how good people were apart of that church.

I was discussing this situation with someone yesterday that knows this church and the pastor and we both wondered if there will be any significant UPC churches in Mississippi in the next twenty or thirty years. It seems like the average church is around 75 people with an elderly population and the larger churches are going through splits with most of the younger generation leaving to become nondenominational or charismatic.

We had a very prominent district official that told us that our church would only succeed if the building would be destroyed and the people had to unite together in unity to re-build. Some people are so contentious that it doesn't matter who the Pastor is - they would NEVER be satisfied.

[tbpew]

But your telling the people that have made this obligation to walk away, it cannot legally be done. Since the loan is a legal document the secular court has to be involved. The board members that filed the suit are also the baord members that were kicked off the board. But thier name is still on the loan. They want to be removed from the loan. So to do this the court had to be involved. It is also against the Bible to walk away from a loan obligation.This is only one aspect of the suit.
thank you for sharing this factual setting.
I am more and more aware that if a defining component of a circumstance is conditional upon a contract (loan document) constructed within the temporal realm/secular realm, any remedy to a dispute will inherently re-engage the temporal, secular community.

Many of us who post on this board would never think twice to engage the secular lending community. Is it inherently wrong or faithless to imagine that we may enage the secular dispute resolution avenues if two parties find themselves irreconciablely divided about something that was created in the secular world? In this particular circumstance, a dispute among brethren, involving a purposed/desired alteration of a legal document needs a secular remedy because it was originated within the secular community. A civil court system is needed to affect this outcome if there is not a willingness on the part of one or both parties.

Its a hybridized circumstance. This 'mixing of modes' should cause a 'sober pause' among some of us spectators (myself included) about the available and appropriate responses.

It would seem like the sequence should be "church community judgement first" then secular.

If that sounds like I have walked away from scripture, I would reply that this circumstance originated and pertains to 'CEASAR' first, but is now a hybrid because it results in the intermingling of a temporal proceedure among members of God's Christ.

[Steve Epley]

I do not know this church nor it's pastor however the trash posted on here about him if this in an indicator of the type of folks bringing suit it is very telling. Air it out on a public forum and a civil court and then wonder why the world is disgusted with religion? This has been so onesided hopefully everyone reading will consider this?

[Michael Phelps]

I do not know this church nor it's pastor however the trash posted on here about him if this in an indicator of the type of folks bringing suit it is very telling. Air it out on a public forum and a civil court and then wonder why the world is disgusted with religion? This has been so onesided hopefully everyone reading will consider this?

Couldn't agree more, Elder.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I do not know this church nor it's pastor however the trash posted on here about him if this in an indicator of the type of folks bringing suit it is very telling. Air it out on a public forum and a civil court and then wonder why the world is disgusted with religion? This has been so onesided hopefully everyone reading will consider this?

I agree as well.

[jtork]

I do not know this church nor it's pastor however the trash posted on here about him if this in an indicator of the type of folks bringing suit it is very telling. Air it out on a public forum and a civil court and then wonder why the world is disgusted with religion? This has been so onesided hopefully everyone reading will consider this?

I am pretty sure most of the people on here probably do not anything about the situation and it is probably safe to say the ones that are involved in the lawsuit (I know all of them) probably do not even know this exists - so all of these posts say nothing about the people bringing the lawsuit.

[Steve Epley]

I am pretty sure most of the people on here probably do not anything about the situation and it is probably safe to say the ones that are involved in the lawsuit (I know all of them) probably do not even know this exists - so all of these posts say nothing about the people bringing the lawsuit.

Then there are those being sued which are the majority from what has been said here.

[jtork]

Then there are those being sued which are the majority from what has been said here.

There are not "those" being sued.

[gulfcoastbrother]

The moral of this story is: RUN FAR AWAY AS YOU CAN FROM THE UPC AND THE WPF!!!!