The dangers of not having a Pastor in your Life...

[revrandy]

2 Chronicles 24....

Amazing Story....

God spared the young man who was protected and seemingly raised by the Priest (Pastor) and his wife...

They build the Temple of God together...

The Priest Passes on...

The Kings ear is turned...

He kills the Priest's Son...

God tries to send Prophets in to replace the Priest...

They are rejected...

and ultimately the King is destroyed for lack of a Pastor...

23And it came to pass at the end of the year, that the host of Syria came up against him: and they came to Judah and Jerusalem, and destroyed all the princes of the people from among the people, and sent all the spoil of them unto the king of Damascus.

24For the army of the Syrians came with a small company of men, and the LORD delivered a very great host into their hand, because they had forsaken the LORD God of their fathers. So they executed judgment against Joash.

25And when they were departed from him, (for they left him in great diseases,) his own servants conspired against him for the blood of the sons of Jehoiada the priest, and slew him on his bed, and he died: and they buried him in the city of David, but they buried him not in the sepulchres of the kings.

26And these are they that conspired against him; Zabad the son of Shimeath an Ammonitess, and Jehozabad the son of Shimrith a Moabitess.

27Now concerning his sons, and the greatness of the burdens laid upon him, and the repairing of the house of God, behold, they are written in the story of the book of the kings. And Amaziah his son reigned in his stead.

I'm am not saying that all Pastor's are perfect examples of what Pastor's Should be...but everybody needs a Pastor in their life.... if you don't have one pray that God will send you One...

[Cindy]

I do thank God for my pastor.

[Digging4Truth]

wow....

That is quite a stretch you accomplished there.

[revrandy]

wow....

That is quite a stretch you accomplished there.

I think the application could apply....:)

[Timmy]

So, if I don't have a pastor, my king will die? :huh

[revrandy]

So, if I don't have a pastor, my king will die? :huh

Nope a Pastor is a good thing to have in your Life.... Mentoring...Leadership...Direction... Protection...

Many good things....

Joash had Jehoiada for spiritual guidance...

and the Bible says:

And Joash did that which was right in the sight of the LORD all the days of Jehoiada the priest.

Joash had a good influence in his Life...

[Digging4Truth]

I think the application could apply....:)

It could... it would just require a certain amount of stretching.

The difference, in my eyes, is between letting the word speak versus making the word talk.

[revrandy]

It could... it would just require a certain amount of stretching.

The difference, in my eyes, is between letting the word speak versus making the word talk.

What does the passage of scripture say to you?

[A_PoMo]

wow....

That is quite a stretch you accomplished there.

my thoughts exactly.

[Tyk]

wow....

That is quite a stretch you accomplished there.

QFT =/

[Digging4Truth]

What does the passage of scripture say to you?

For the army of the Syrians came with a small company of men, and the LORD delivered a very great host into their hand,

God did that...


Because they did this...
because they had forsaken the LORD God of their fathers. So they executed judgment against Joash.

I'm not saying that we don't need the ministry of the Lord in our lives (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Teachers & Pastors) because we all certainly do.

A few of the faults I find in your synopsis are...

1. Why wouldn't the same thing say we need Apostles in our life? Prophets in our life? Teachers in our life? Evangelists in our life? What we need is accountability and ministry from the many sources God has blessed the church with. All of us.

2. There are methods of delivery of Gods word of which I have mentioned a few in point 1. The problem wasn't that they didn't have the method in their life. The problem was that, in spite of the methods God used... they never listened.

To take a portion of scripture like this where someone failed to obey Gods clear voice because of their own rebellion and then make an assertion that the main point is that you need a pastor seems to be taking a little bit of poetic license IMO.

[revrandy]

God did that...


Because they did this...


I'm not saying that we don't need the ministry of the Lord in our lives (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Teachers & Pastors) because we all certainly do.

A few of the faults I find in your synopsis are...

1. Why wouldn't the same thing say we need Apostles in our life? Prophets in our life? Teachers in our life? Evangelists in our life? What we need is accountability and ministry from the many sources God has blessed the church with. All of us.

I personally think one man can fulfill all the areas of ministry you listed... also we do need those ministries in our lives... the Apostles...Prophets...and Evangelists I do know are mostly travellers... the Pastors are usually stationary... thereby making a deeper impact on our daily lives...

2. There are methods of delivery of Gods word of which I have mentioned a few in point 1. The problem wasn't that they didn't have the method in their life. The problem was that, in spite of the methods God used... they never listened.

The importance of sound spiritual advice in important in our daily lives...
They listened to the wrong voices....
(TLV)
17 But after Jehoiada’s death, the leaders of Judah came and bowed before King Joash and persuaded him to listen to their advice. 18 They decided to abandon the Temple of the Lord, the God of their ancestors, and they worshiped Asherah poles and idols instead! Because of this sin, divine anger fell on Judah and Jerusalem. 19 Yet the Lord sent prophets to bring them back to him. The prophets warned them, but still the people would not listen.

To take a portion of scripture like this where someone failed to obey Gods clear voice because of their own rebellion and then make an assertion that the main point is that you need a pastor seems to be taking a little bit of poetic license IMO.

There is one interpreation but many applications.....I think the point is the Role a Good Pastor can affect in one's life....

[Digging4Truth]

There is one interpreation but many applications.....I think the point is the Role a Good Pastor can affect in one's life....

Could be.

To me the point is that after being sent messenger after messenger they still didn't listen and God brought appropriate judgment on them because of the failure to listen. They had multiple "pastors". They just didn't listen to them.

But... that's just me.

I personally think one man can fulfill all the areas of ministry you listed... also we do need those ministries in our lives... the Apostles...Prophets...and Evangelists I do know are mostly travellers... the Pastors are usually stationary... thereby making a deeper impact on our daily lives...

Again.. could be... But God's word says there were "some" apostles, "some" prophets etc. One man could probably fulfill all of these but it would probably be a better scenario if there were several of each around rather than one being several. That appears to be what the original layout was.

Many of these are traveling ministries in this day and age but that probably has a lot to do with the local church's thoughts about these ministries and their operation.

I would think that the office of the apostle would, in and of itself, be a naturally traveling ministry. The others do not seem as though, in their original context, they would be naturally mobile although they have taken that on in this day and age.

[revrandy]

Could be.

To me the point is that after being sent messenger after messenger they still didn't listen and God brought appropriate judgment on them because of the failure to listen.

But... that's just me.

I do agree...but that fact is those that were sent were Ministers of God...

Priest...

Prophet....

If Joash would have heeded to Jehoiada’s successor (which seemed to be his son) maybe the end of the Historical account might have been different...

[ILG]

Somebody should maybe start a thread "The Dangers of Having a Pastor in your Life". :D Sorry, couldn't resist.:ursofunny

[Digging4Truth]

I do agree...but that fact is those that were sent were Ministers of God...

Priest...

Prophet....

If Joash would have heeded to Jehoiada’s successor (which seemed to be his son) maybe the end of the Historical account might have been different...

Absolutely...

When we heed God's words to us our lives generally take a much better direction.

[revrandy]

Somebody should maybe start a thread "The Dangers of Having a Pastor in your Life". :D Sorry, couldn't resist.:ursofunny

Wait on it.....Wait on it.....:D....

The facts are true I think that there is enough Pastor Bashing around here...

We need some Pastor Support.....Ministry Uplifting.....:)

[Tyk]

http://www.lisamcpherson.org/upc.htm#V

Has been posted before so im not the first.

Good info, and pretty well researched and thought out. Long read though ;)

[revrandy]

http://www.lisamcpherson.org/upc.htm#V

Has been posted before so im not the first.

Good info, and pretty well researched and thought out. Long read though ;)


Is this where you want this thread to go??

[deltaguitar]

Nope a Pastor is a good thing to have in your Life.... Mentoring...Leadership...Direction... Protection...

Many good things....

Joash had Jehoiada for spiritual guidance...

and the Bible says:

And Joash did that which was right in the sight of the LORD all the days of Jehoiada the priest.

Joash had a good influence in his Life...

So how do you find such a pastor? There is one viable UPC church within 60 miles of where I live and I doubt this guy could have any relevant meaning in my life. So what do I do?

Maybe head over to the local Baptist or COG because they have some great pastors. Maybe I will just stick with my Pastor even though God led him charismatic. :evilglee

[revrandy]

So how do you find such a pastor? There is one viable UPC church within 60 miles of where I live and I doubt this guy could have any relevant meaning in my life. So what do I do?

Maybe head over to the local Baptist or COG because they have some great pastors. Maybe I will just stick with my Pastor even though God led him charismatic. :evilglee

Pray that God sends you what you need or sends you to a place where you need to be....You might be suprised at that Prayer Works...:)

[edjen01]

is a bad or sub-par pastor better than no pastor?

[deltaguitar]

Pray that God sends you what you need or sends you to a place where you need to be....You might be suprised at that Prayer Works...:)

I am where I need to be. My point is that many would think that I have lost my way because I am no longer towing the Apostolic line. What they don't understand is that I am exactly where God put me.

[My Own Eyes]

You should all be so proud of me! I have entered this thread at least 10 times, and I have managed to physically restrain myself from commenting on this thread.

I decided to allow myself the liberty to let you all know exactly how much self-control I have :D

[Tyk]

Is this where you want this thread to go??

Aside from the few cult comments that were not needed (but i DEFINITELY have seen FIRST HAND why he would make those comments),- this,if anything, should INSPIRE your ministry, lift you up, and encourge you.

[Digging4Truth]

You should all be so proud of me! I have entered this thread at least 10 times, and I have managed to physically restrain myself from commenting on this thread.

I decided to allow myself the liberty to let you all know exactly how much self-control I have :D

Great googly moogly girl...

Have you been working out your self restraint in a gym somewhere?

:)

[ILG]

You should all be so proud of me! I have entered this thread at least 10 times, and I have managed to physically restrain myself from commenting on this thread.

I decided to allow myself the liberty to let you all know exactly how much self-control I have :D

Congratulations, Mich! :)

[revrandy]

You should all be so proud of me! I have entered this thread at least 10 times, and I have managed to physically restrain myself from commenting on this thread.

I decided to allow myself the liberty to let you all know exactly how much self-control I have :D

Great googly moogly girl...

Have you been working out your self restraint in a gym somewhere?

:)

Self Restraint???

Does this have anything to do with Spandex??? :D

[Digging4Truth]

Self Restraint???

Does this have anything to do with Spandex??? :D

Uh oh...

Brother Randy... I cannot vouch for MOE's continued ability to demonstrate self restraint after reading your post. :)

She might just go all crazy after reading that one.

:ursofunny

[Steve Epley]

Randy has a death wish starting this thread.:whistle The best a pastor is considered here is a necessary evil.:aaa

[Digging4Truth]

Randy has a death wish starting this thread.:whistle The best a pastor is considered here is a necessary evil.:aaa

No Sir....

[OneAccord]

Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Give me a pastor like this and I will GLADLY submit to him (or her). They feed, not starve. They lead, not drag. They serve, not lord. The lift up, not tear down. They strengthen, not weaken. They are shepherds, not hirelings. I'll say it again: Give me a pastor like that and I will GLADLY submit to him or her. And I think we've got a few on this forum that fits that description just fine!

[OneAccord]

...They gather in, they don't scatter. They visit, they don't shun. They unite, they don't divide. They build up, they don't destroy. They seek God, they don't find fault. The edify the Body, they don't chop it to pieces. They work FOR unity, not against it. They preach the WORD, not their opinion. They preach what GOD said, not what they say.

Wow, feeling kinda "preachy" and I ain't even a preacher!

[Michael Phelps]

Randy has a death wish starting this thread.:whistle The best a pastor is considered here is a necessary evil.:aaa

Pastors are very much appreciated here, dictators - not so much.

[OneAccord]

Pastors in God's House mend broken hearts, they don't cause them. The lift up the feeble, and don't cripple the spirit. They are peacemakers...not trouble causers. The comfort those who mourn, they don't add to their misery. They lift burdens, they don't pile more on. They preach Christ, not denominations. They are examples of what to be, not of what not to be. They earn respect, but don't demand it. The care of the church is their greatest concern, their own creature comforts is not.


Somebody, stop me!

[OneAccord]

And, yes... they reprove, but only with longsuffering and doctrine. They do rebuke, but only with tear filled eyes. They preach Jesus, not just a doctrine ABOUT Jesus. They are watchmen on the wall, but not sowers of discord. They sound the trumpet, but don't toot their own horns.

I'm through. Now, ushers, come and we will recieve the offering.

[Scott Hutchinson]

A pastor that cares about one's spiritual well being is a must,but a pastor is not Jesus.
I'm for the ministry,and I appreciate caring sheperds.

[A_PoMo]

Pastors are very much appreciated here, dictators - not so much.


amen

[revrandy]

There are very good Pastors out there... Like I said...either Pray for yours or ask God to send you one or send you to one...

It can make a tremendous difference in your life....:)

[Carpenter]

There are very good Pastors out there... Like I said...either Pray for yours or ask God to send you one or send you to one...

It can make a tremendous difference in your life....:)

I agree a person should have a pastor, however what that pastor's place is in an individual's life is very different. What do we need from a pastor? Do we need support every once in a while? Do we simply need a 1-3 times a week sermon?

Tell me what you need a pastor for? Me?

I am not sure actually, I know I need a pastor, I am just not sure what for at this point...or what I would expect of/from him...

[edjen01]

i believe there are good pastors....and i believe that having a good one can help you become a better christian, minister, etc.....and that having a bad one can cripple your ministry and pile on a lot of extra baggage.

[Withdrawn]

Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Give me a pastor like this and I will GLADLY submit to him (or her). They feed, not starve. They lead, not drag. They serve, not lord. The lift up, not tear down. They strengthen, not weaken. They are shepherds, not hirelings. I'll say it again: Give me a pastor like that and I will GLADLY submit to him or her. And I think we've got a few on this forum that fits that description just fine!

...They gather in, they don't scatter. They visit, they don't shun. They unite, they don't divide. They build up, they don't destroy. They seek God, they don't find fault. The edify the Body, they don't chop it to pieces. They work FOR unity, not against it. They preach the WORD, not their opinion. They preach what GOD said, not what they say.

Wow, feeling kinda "preachy" and I ain't even a preacher!

Actually, YOU ARE a preacher. Mark 16.15 is written to you too! :friend

Pastors in God's House mend broken hearts, they don't cause them. The lift up the feeble, and don't cripple the spirit. They are peacemakers...not trouble causers. The comfort those who mourn, they don't add to their misery. They lift burdens, they don't pile more on. They preach Christ, not denominations. They are examples of what to be, not of what not to be. They earn respect, but don't demand it. The care of the church is their greatest concern, their own creature comforts is not.


Somebody, stop me!

And, yes... they reprove, but only with longsuffering and doctrine. They do rebuke, but only with tear filled eyes. They preach Jesus, not just a doctrine ABOUT Jesus. They are watchmen on the wall, but not sowers of discord. They sound the trumpet, but don't toot their own horns.

EXACTLY!!!

The first of many errors comes into play when we divide the church into two classes of people - ministry and laity. This concept is unbiblical and could not be further from what Jesus and the original apostles setup in the first century church.

The second error occurs when we take the "ministry" class and compare it to the Levitical priesthood, and we set them up as kings and princes in our congregations and organizations. The concept of ministry (to minister) is that of service, but the way so many churches are setup these days, it's more like the churches are serving the ministry. And rather than serving the church, they TAKE from the church.

I have a pastor (poimen) in my life, a good man. But he's not infallible and I don't serve him. He truly understands that it is his responsibility to serve the church, to feed us and provide an example for us to imitate (follow). We've put WAY TOO MUCH focus on the "pastor" as the be all, end all of ministry in our congregations, and by doing so we have deprived ourselves the benefits of true apostolic and prophetic ministry. We've allowed pastors to become a "higher class" within the church, and our organizations have become more like country clubs where the good ole boys go to congratulate each other on their accomplishments and conspire ways to create more rules for their subjects to keep them in submission. In the New Testament, the ministry served the churches and were accountable to the churches and elders. We have it completely backward!

Everyone needs a pastor. But it needs to be in the perspective of scripture, with the other offices of ministry represented as well. The conclusion in the opening post of this topic is, indeed, a stretch. But you're right. Everyone should have a pastor.

I'm through. Now, ushers, come and we will recieve the offering.
:ursofunny:ursofunny

[Withdrawn]

i believe there are good pastors....and i believe that having a good one can help you become a better christian, minister, etc.....and that having a bad one can cripple your ministry and pile on a lot of extra baggage.

YEP! I had a REALLY bad one - controlling, rude, cold and downright abusive. So far as ministry goes, I learned more of what not to do from him than anything else.

I have a great one now. But my eyes are not on him, they are on Jesus Christ. "The LORD is my shepherd!"

[crakjak]

Mature spiritual leadership in one's life is a good thing. Since we are all kings and priest unto our God, we can and should be community and mentors in each others life. The Pastor authority as presented in today's culture is not scriptural, servant leadership is certainly scriptural.

BTW I go to church and the church has a pastor, as well as elders and home group leaders. The responsibility is not vested in one man, this protects the body from the weakness and failures that one person has from time to time. Plus this provides for the restoration from those times of weakness, so that mature leadership is not discarded due to momentary failings.

[crakjak]

Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Give me a pastor like this and I will GLADLY submit to him (or her). They feed, not starve. They lead, not drag. They serve, not lord. The lift up, not tear down. They strengthen, not weaken. They are shepherds, not hirelings. I'll say it again: Give me a pastor like that and I will GLADLY submit to him or her. And I think we've got a few on this forum that fits that description just fine!

See when presented scripturally, the body readily accepts God's provision. Glory! Just the thought of a leader according to Jer. 3:15 makes me want to shockomoo!!! LOL

[crakjak]

Randy has a death wish starting this thread.:whistle The best a pastor is considered here is a necessary evil.:aaa

Come on, Bro. Steve, no one on here will reject the Jer. 3:1 type of pastor. If they do they are headed for some purging fire!

I bet you are such a leader, just need to get over some of those extreme standards, then you fit perfectly. j/k, not really. :snapout:tease

[Falla39]

YEP! I had a REALLY bad one - controlling, rude, cold and downright abusive. So far as ministry goes, I learned more of what not to do from him than anything else.

I have a great one now. But my eyes are not on him, they are on Jesus Christ. "The LORD is my shepherd!"

Post of the day, week, month, year!!!!!:friend

[Pastor Keith]

2 Chronicles 24....

Amazing Story....

God spared the young man who was protected and seemingly raised by the Priest (Pastor) and his wife...

They build the Temple of God together...

The Priest Passes on...

The Kings ear is turned...

He kills the Priest's Son...

God tries to send Prophets in to replace the Priest...

They are rejected...

and ultimately the King is destroyed for lack of a Pastor...

23And it came to pass at the end of the year, that the host of Syria came up against him: and they came to Judah and Jerusalem, and destroyed all the princes of the people from among the people, and sent all the spoil of them unto the king of Damascus.

24For the army of the Syrians came with a small company of men, and the LORD delivered a very great host into their hand, because they had forsaken the LORD God of their fathers. So they executed judgment against Joash.

25And when they were departed from him, (for they left him in great diseases,) his own servants conspired against him for the blood of the sons of Jehoiada the priest, and slew him on his bed, and he died: and they buried him in the city of David, but they buried him not in the sepulchres of the kings.

26And these are they that conspired against him; Zabad the son of Shimeath an Ammonitess, and Jehozabad the son of Shimrith a Moabitess.

27Now concerning his sons, and the greatness of the burdens laid upon him, and the repairing of the house of God, behold, they are written in the story of the book of the kings. And Amaziah his son reigned in his stead.

I'm am not saying that all Pastor's are perfect examples of what Pastor's Should be...but everybody needs a Pastor in their life.... if you don't have one pray that God will send you One...


A couple of things, first I am a Pastor so I have a bias towards Pastors.

Last night I taught a lesson on God giving you what you need in a package you don't want or like.

Partly in reference to the Election, the scriptures speaks volumes regarding submitting, honoring and obey authority figures, even when their authority manifests itself unjustly. I Peter 2 refers to this.

Now if God calls us to submit, pray, honor worldly human institutions, I think the requirement is more significant in the house of God.

A few things about leadership/elders.

In the NT setting Elders (spiritually mature, seasoned, leader) lead or ruled the local assembly, some of these elders were Pastors, some prophets, some teachers etc.

So in essence we all need elders. In their role as Elder they might fulfill as Pastor's role, Evangelist or Prophet, etc.

Their importance is that when Jesus delegated his authority to his disciples he told them on more than one occasion that if one receives them, then he is being received and if one rejects them then he is being rejected. Of course the authority is derived from speaking words of God.

So as I speak the words of God in my local assembly, I represent Jesus and the authority of God word's to them, if they reject that then according to scripture they reject the authority of Jesus in that assembly.

And accordingly if they receive my words (based on the text, legitimate authority) then they are receiving from Jesus as if he was standing there himself.

The power of binding and loosing is a reference to this as well, of course the key word in that often misused passage is whatever has been loosed in heaven then can be loosed on the earth, Elders if it has not been loosed in heaven, you have no such authority on the earth. This guards against mis-use of authority.

But even illegitimate/false ministers can be the vehicle by which the Lord moves, the passage in Matthew 7 about those that work wonders, miracles, cast out demons, and yet Jesus never knew them is a tremendous warning of being right with God regardless of ministerial results, success or gifting.
Though it is worth pointing out that even with that being said, people did get delivered from Demons, miracles happened and wonders were received by believers. God ultimately judged and held those false workers accountable.

There are many other reasons, but in short we do need Elders, Pastors, leadership, because they do speak in the place of Jesus in a delegated role.

[Steve Epley]

Pastors are a waste of time and money!:tease

[Tyk]

Randy has a death wish starting this thread.:whistle The best a pastor is considered here is a necessary evil.:aaa

:p You know better.

[Pastor Keith]

Ephesians 4:11
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

Why did God give these gifts of leadership to the church?

Taken from Psalm 68
You have ascended on high,
You have led captivity captive;
You have received gifts among men,
Even from the rebellious,
That the LORD God might dwell there.

[Amos]

Somebody should maybe start a thread "The Dangers of Having a Pastor in your Life". :D Sorry, couldn't resist.:ursofunny

Seriously, you would be hailed as a great sage and a spiritual genius here for a thread like that.

Randy, on the other hand, is going to be picked apart.

[Withdrawn]

Ephesians 4:11
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

Why did God give these gifts of leadership to the church?

Taken from Psalm 68
You have ascended on high,
You have led captivity captive;
You have received gifts among men,
Even from the rebellious,
That the LORD God might dwell there.

Ephesians 4.12, "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"

"for the work of the ministry" = to serve

God already dwells in the church. Anyone IN the church has the Holy Ghost, which is God's abiding presence. Everyone IN the church has the same anointing of the Holy Ghost. Each may have different gifts, but all have the same anointing.

Bro. Keith, I'm not trying to be contentious, and I appreciate the spirit of your post. I sense from you (here and many other posts) that you truly do have a servant's heart, and it sounds like you are a loving and supportive pastor. There are some, though, who are woefully self-righteous and think they have the market on truth. Their response to a challenge of their views is to accuse and shame or use sarcasm, not to edify and restore, speaking the truth in love. How dare anyone challenge their supposed "authority" or their tradition?!

Thank you for your even keel.

[OneAccord]

Randy, on the other hand, is going to be picked apart.

Randy's gonna be picked apart? Why? For telling the truth? Funny thing is, I haven't read his post in detail. But, according to Eph 4, God GAVE pastors, along with the other 4 ministerial gifts. I don't know about you folks, but I need EVERY gift God gives! "For God so loved the world, He GAVE His only begotten Son...." I need Jesus! "...and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost". I NEED the Holy Ghost. "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God..." I NEED wisdom.

If God did, in fact, give pastors, how in the wide world of sports can we say we don't need them? No, we don't need dictorial pastors who use the Bible as a club to beat the sheep into submission. Let me ask you a question. When a person passes away in you family, who do ya call to conduct the funeral? Who do ya call when theres a marriage to officiate? Who visits the nursing homes and hospitals? Pastors are servants to the church, they aren't spare tires to be used in emergencies only. The next time you need someone to perform a wedding, call the Sears repairman. When you need counseling, call the cable guy. When you need someone to help you thru a crisis, and, eventually you WILL need someone to help you through a crisis, call your local auto repair service. Then, when you draw a blank with all of the above, call a pastor. See who shows up first. Thank God for pastors. Thank God for pastors after God's own heart.

[Pastor Keith]

Ephesians 4.12, "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"

"for the work of the ministry" = to serve

God already dwells in the church. Anyone IN the church has the Holy Ghost, which is God's abiding presence. Everyone IN the church has the same anointing of the Holy Ghost. Each may have different gifts, but all have the same anointing.

Bro. Keith, I'm not trying to be contentious, and I appreciate the spirit of your post. I sense from you (here and many other posts) that you truly do have a servant's heart, and it sounds like you are a loving and supportive pastor. There are some, though, who are woefully self-righteous and think they have the market on truth. Their response to a challenge of their views is to accuse and shame or use sarcasm, not to edify and restore, speaking the truth in love. How dare anyone challenge their supposed "authority" or their tradition?!

Thank you for your even keel.

Thank you for your kind words, but the passage 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry,

This passage actually means that leaders equip others to serve in their ministry (not so much a description of what kind of leader but what they do and their importance) , of course servant leaders role model and disciple other servant leaders.

I won't dispute the idea that the Holy Spirit dwells in his church body, but within that Church body there are unique giftings that enables the Lord to speak to, and to lead his church.

The nine gifts of the Spirit enable the Body of Christ to specifically discern and follow the direction of the Holy Spirit. So is the same with ministry elders/leadership they are equipped uniquely and gifted to fulfill a role in the Body and without that there is diminished and sick body.

[freeatlast]

I thank God for my pastor, like Jaamez, I now have a pastor that is a true mentor in my life, even though he is mush younger than I.

He is such a good teacher, not fearing that he may not be in "the manual" but is assured he's in The Bible.

Also, like Jaamez I have had a reat example in my life, that has taught me much about how not to do it....and I do love the Ol boy, although he is now dead.

He left to me some great lessons on how not to treat God's family.

[revrandy]

2 Chronicles 22

Athaliah and Joash
10 When Athaliah the mother of Ahaziah saw that her son was dead, she proceeded to destroy the whole royal family of the house of Judah. 11 But Jehosheba, [e] the daughter of King Jehoram, took Joash son of Ahaziah and stole him away from among the royal princes who were about to be murdered and put him and his nurse in a bedroom. Because Jehosheba, [f] the daughter of King Jehoram and wife of the priest Jehoiada, was Ahaziah's sister, she hid the child from Athaliah so she could not kill him. 12 He remained hidden with them at the temple of God for six years while Athaliah ruled the land.

This kid was raised in Church.... @ 7 yrs old he Became King....

[edjen01]

better check out what he ended up doing once he became king....

[Rhoni]

I thank God for a pastor who can feed me. By this I mean; He is a good teacher, studies, and can discuss scriptures with me.

[revrandy]

I thank God for a pastor who can feed me. By this I mean; He is a good teacher, studies, and can discuss scriptures with me.

Me too....

A Good Pastor is a great benefit in a world where it's getting harder and more difficult to find good folks....

except on here of course....

[My Own Eyes]

A couple of things, first I am a Pastor so I have a bias towards Pastors.

Last night I taught a lesson on God giving you what you need in a package you don't want or like.

Partly in reference to the Election, the scriptures speaks volumes regarding submitting, honoring and obey authority figures, even when their authority manifests itself unjustly. I Peter 2 refers to this.

Now if God calls us to submit, pray, honor worldly human institutions, I think the requirement is more significant in the house of God.

A few things about leadership/elders.

In the NT setting Elders (spiritually mature, seasoned, leader) lead or ruled the local assembly, some of these elders were Pastors, some prophets, some teachers etc.

So in essence we all need elders. In their role as Elder they might fulfill as Pastor's role, Evangelist or Prophet, etc.

Their importance is that when Jesus delegated his authority to his disciples he told them on more than one occasion that if one receives them, then he is being received and if one rejects them then he is being rejected. Of course the authority is derived from speaking words of God.

So as I speak the words of God in my local assembly, I represent Jesus and the authority of God word's to them, if they reject that then according to scripture they reject the authority of Jesus in that assembly.

And accordingly if they receive my words (based on the text, legitimate authority) then they are receiving from Jesus as if he was standing there himself.

The power of binding and loosing is a reference to this as well, of course the key word in that often misused passage is whatever has been loosed in heaven then can be loosed on the earth, Elders if it has not been loosed in heaven, you have no such authority on the earth. This guards against mis-use of authority.

But even illegitimate/false ministers can be the vehicle by which the Lord moves, the passage in Matthew 7 about those that work wonders, miracles, cast out demons, and yet Jesus never knew them is a tremendous warning of being right with God regardless of ministerial results, success or gifting.
Though it is worth pointing out that even with that being said, people did get delivered from Demons, miracles happened and wonders were received by believers. God ultimately judged and held those false workers accountable.

There are many other reasons, but in short we do need Elders, Pastors, leadership, because they do speak in the place of Jesus in a delegated role.


I guess this is a big reason why I am reluctant to belong to any kind of assembly. I don't necessarily want someone to speak in the place of Jesus in my life.

I don't say that with scorn or arrogance or anything. It's simply that I fought for so long to have faith of my own, to follow as I believe God is leading me, that I don't believe that I could give up that independence.

[Pastor Keith]

I guess this is a big reason why I am reluctant to belong to any kind of assembly. I don't necessarily want someone to speak in the place of Jesus in my life.

I don't say that with scorn or arrogance or anything. It's simply that I fought for so long to have faith of my own, to follow as I believe God is leading me, that I don't believe that I could give up that independence.

Leadership is one of the pieces of God's role and voice in your life, they aren't the only one. But to cut them off because of your issues and history is the equavalent to cutting out your hands because you stubbed your finger.

Leadership is part of the body and have a signifcant role to play, without it you will not come to the realization of your full and mature stature in Christ.

The answer to abuse and illegitimate uses of authority is proper use and legitimate ues. Find a healthy, Biblical based church and commit to it.

[Withdrawn]

I guess this is a big reason why I am reluctant to belong to any kind of assembly. I don't necessarily want someone to speak in the place of Jesus in my life.

I don't say that with scorn or arrogance or anything. It's simply that I fought for so long to have faith of my own, to follow as I believe God is leading me, that I don't believe that I could give up that independence.

And neither should we! It is ERROR (false-doctrine, heresy) to insinuate that pastors are put in our lives to "hear from God for us." They do NOT speak for Jesus to us. Jesus speaks DIRECTLY to us through His Word and His Spirit. The notion that the upper class "ministry" is somehow in a more direct channel with God that the lower class "laity" is unscriptural. You'd have to bend and murder a lot of scripture to find that in the Bible.

This abominable doctrine asserts that "pastors" are those who sit in "Moses' seat," with Moses as the giver of the law (the first covenant). In the church, it is actually JESUS who sits in "Moses' seat" as the giver of the law (the NEW covenant, the law of the Spirit). For a pastor to say he sits in Moses' seat, he is actually dethroning Jesus and usurping His power.

The church DOES need pastors. YOU need a pastor. You just need to be careful who you choose as your pastor. The sins of some don't negate the value of others who are aligned with the Word and Spirit of God.

[revrandy]

I guess this is a big reason why I am reluctant to belong to any kind of assembly. I don't necessarily want someone to speak in the place of Jesus in my life.

I don't say that with scorn or arrogance or anything. It's simply that I fought for so long to have faith of my own, to follow as I believe God is leading me, that I don't believe that I could give up that independence.

I think the problem is a part of the solution....

I used to serve men (Pastor) and struggle with God concerning them....

I now serve God and don't worry about the Man of God he placed in my life, I'm not discouraged or worried because I trust that God is doing what's right in my life.... and for me to say this is a big thing...but I trust it's more maturity than anything else...

[Pastor Keith]

And neither should we! It is ERROR (false-doctrine, heresy) to insinuate that pastors are put in our lives to "hear from God for us." They do NOT speak for Jesus to us. Jesus speaks DIRECTLY to us through His Word and His Spirit. The notion that the upper class "ministry" is somehow in a more direct channel with God that the lower class "laity" is unscriptural. You'd have to bend and murder a lot of scripture to find that in the Bible.

This abominable doctrine asserts that "pastors" are those who sit in "Moses' seat," with Moses as the giver of the law (the first covenant). In the church, it is actually JESUS who sits in "Moses' seat" as the giver of the law (the NEW covenant, the law of the Spirit). For a pastor to say he sits in Moses' seat, he is actually dethroning Jesus and usurping His power.

The church DOES need pastors. YOU need a pastor. You just need to be careful who you choose as your pastor. The sins of some don't negate the value of others who are aligned with the Word and Spirit of God.

And that same Jesus uses his body to manifest himself on the earth and a vital and significant part of that body is leadership gifts, they are all the body and don't play the only role, but to diminish their role it to try and exist with parts of your own body missing. Good luck in trying to function in life with members misssing.

[Tyk]

Me too....

A Good Pastor is a great benefit in a world where it's getting harder and more difficult to find good folks....

except on here of course....

I think you misunderstand how people feel on here :p. Most people love, or would love and great servant of christ to labor for, and with, and to them. Wise, full of the fruits of the spirit, a loving guide to help them.

*disclaimer (you'll like this) - Your feelings could be drawn from a defensive attitude from most posters here. Many were taught, and or experienced an overlord type Pastor theology. - And they fear/reject that being pushed on them ;).

A great pastor is like a jewel with wings, as a bad pastor is like lodestone around your neck =(

[My Own Eyes]

Leadership is one of the pieces of God's role and voice in your life, they aren't the only one. But to cut them off because of your issues and history is the equavalent to cutting out your hands because you stubbed your finger.

Leadership is part of the body and have a signifcant role to play, without it you will not come to the realization of your full and mature stature in Christ.

The answer to abuse and illegitimate uses of authority is proper use and legitimate ues. Find a healthy, Biblical based church and commit to it.

Deep Breath......repeat x10

Ok, to be perfectly honest, my first reaction when I am told what to do is to get defensive and overreact. It's one of my triggers, getting better, but still there.

The reason that I am not involved in a church or "under authority", in actuality has little to do with my past, at least not in the way you might think. As much as I am able I have laid to rest the wounds of my past. I have learned what I can from them, and have made the decision to move on. (I say decision because often the journey is two steps forward, 1 step back).

I feel like I have learned some very important lessons from my experiences, and more than anything I don't want to make the same mistakes. I was naive, but well-intentioned. I believed that anything God spoke to (or asked of) anyone, he also asked of me. I believed what I was taught, I did what I was told, and I was miserable.

The truth is that when it came down to it, I was seriously lacking in faith. I didn't have the faith that the Spirit of God was strong enough to keep me, or willing to speak to me, nor the faith that i was smart enough, or spiritual enough, or good enough to hear Him.

Eventually, I decided to rest my tattered and bleeding spirt away from those to whom I had given control. The process of deconstructing and rebuilding is brutal. I wanted to give up many many times, but I didn't. I feel like I made it through the worst of the darkness, and once again see light and hope.

Though it has been a struggle, I feel like I am finally reaping from my work. My faith is finally my own. My relationship with God is only between the two of us.

There are few on this forum who would believe me (and I will spare you the story), but God spoke to me and told me that the only way that I would find him was to leave the Apostolic church. (as a disclaimer he DIDNOT tell me that he couldn't be found in the apostolic church, or that is was evil or bad or anything of that nature...just that I couldn't get to him where I was).

I listened, and He was right. And one thing I have gained is the confidence to trust in His leading. Before, inside I was like a certain well-mocked poster whose positions alter with the changing direction of the winds. I would think one thing, and then fear would push me back in a different direction. I was constantly obsessed with getting it wrong, with doing the wrong thing, and of ending up in hell.

And so it is with extreme gratefullness and faith, that I tell you that if God wants me to go back to my old church, join the non-denominal church I attend occasionally, or to to attend a different church entirely, I am supremely confidant that he will make His desire known to me. Until that time, I am content to stay where I am, resting in Him.

[Withdrawn]

And that same Jesus uses his body to manifest himself on the earth and a vital and significant part of that body is leadership gifts, they are all the body and don't play the only role, but to diminish their role it to try and exist with parts of your own body missing. Good luck in trying to function in life with members missing.

Agreed. That is why I was careful to note that WE DO NEED PASTORS. I love mine. I love the leadership that God has placed in His church. I think I may have been in error to not head-on address the comment about "independence." We're not islands and I don't believe we'll make it if we keep our "independence" to the point where we are not in fellowship with the body.

I'm not diminishing their role - at least not the role that Scripture gives them. But a pastor's role is NOT as a mediator between God and me. That's an abominable theology/tradition that is inherited from Roman Catholicism, and they inherited it from the OT. You simply do not find that example in the New Testament. "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1 Timothy 2.5. ANYONE, regardless of how well-intentioned he or she may be, who assays to step into that role is in error. A pastor should offer direction and correction with love from the Word of God, but so far as "hearing from God" on someone's behalf... well, that's just not scriptural. That makes for weak and lazy saints, and promotes the whole separation of classes within the church (ministry/laity).

[Rhoni]

Me too....

A Good Pastor is a great benefit in a world where it's getting harder and more difficult to find good folks....

except on here of course....

:friend

[Withdrawn]

I think you misunderstand how people feel on here :p. Most people love, or would love and great servant of christ to labor for, and with, and to them. Wise, full of the fruits of the spirit, a loving guide to help them.

*disclaimer (you'll like this) - Your feelings could be drawn from a defensive attitude from most posters here. Many were taught, and or experienced an overlord type Pastor theology. - And they fear/reject that being pushed on them ;).

A great pastor is like a jewel with wings, as a bad pastor is like lodestone around your neck =(

BINGO!

I don't have an opposition to having a pastor. I actually have a great pastor whom I love and am confident that he loves me. But having recently been delivered from years of spiritual abuse by a "pastor" who was more a "lord over God's heritage" than a servant. He was all about being served and wielding his "authority". It was more about power to him. That's how I came to study this all out, and found that the whole model of "pastoral ministry" as we have inherited it from RCC down through the reformation is NOT the model we find in the first century church.

Spiritual abuse is a very real, emotionally devastating problem in many of our churches today. An outsider might not see it, but it is real. You might look at the congregation I left and see how wonderful everything looks and how organized everything is and how perfect everything seems. He (the pastor) is still pulling in 800 to 900 people every week, but get to know some of those people and hear how they really feel and you might be shocked. An insider knows differently and they're kept in submission by fear of being made an outcast (socially as well as spiritually) or being publicly humiliated.

RevRandy, Bro. Keith, I'm sure you are both outstanding pastors with true servant's hearts and a love for the people of God. Just understand that there are some serious problems out there, and MANY have been hurt by these "wolves in sheeps clothing" who are out for their own aspirations. We need more pastors who are "men of God", and we need to purge out the pastors who are "men of themselves."

[Rhoni]

Agreed. That is why I was careful to note that WE DO NEED PASTORS. I love mine. I love the leadership that God has placed in His church. I think I may have been in error to not head-on address the comment about "independence." We're not islands and I don't believe we'll make it if we keep our "independence" to the point where we are not in fellowship with the body.

I'm not diminishing their role - at least not the role that Scripture gives them. But a pastor's role is NOT as a mediator between God and me. That's an abominable theology/tradition that is inherited from Roman Catholicism, and they inherited it from the OT. You simply do not find that example in the New Testament. "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1 Timothy 2.5. ANYONE, regardless of how well-intentioned he or she may be, who assays to step into that role is in error. A pastor should offer direction and correction with love from the Word of God, but so far as "hearing from God" on someone's behalf... well, that's just not scriptural. That makes for weak and lazy saints, and promotes the whole separation of classes within the church (ministry/laity).

I think I agree with you here. I do not think they have the role of shepard - that role belongs to Christ. The role of the Pastor is to feed the sheep - teach them the word and it is up the the individual to apply it - not have it shoved down their throats. It isn't the pastor's role to get enmeshed/triangulated into family matters either. JMHO,
Rhoni

[Withdrawn]

Me too....

A Good Pastor is a great benefit in a world where it's getting harder and more difficult to find good folks....

except on here of course....

AMEN! I appreciate you, Bro. Randy! I'm sure you're a wonderful pastor with a servant's heart and the mind of Christ. God bless you.

I apologize if some of my comments have sounded like I was "pastor-bashing" or disagreeing that we DO NEED pastors. I recognize and appreciate that the church needs the gifts of leadership that the Lord gave us - some apostles, some prophets, some pastors, evangelists and teachers. :friend

[Withdrawn]

I think I agree with you here. I do not think they have the role of shepard - that role belongs to Christ. The role of the Pastor is to feed the sheep - teach them the word and it is up the the individual to apply it - not have it shoved down their throats. It isn't the pastor's role to get enmeshed/triangulated into family matters either. JMHO,
Rhoni

Good point, Rhoni, and I agree. I agree that "the Lord is my Shepherd" and I'm well taken care of because of that. I only said "shepherd" because of the Greek word used being POIMEN, which could be translated as either shepherd or pastor. In the context below, a pastor could be referred to as a shepherd as well, though I do see and agree with your point.

The tasks of a Near Eastern shepherd were:
- to feed the sheep
- to watch for enemies trying to attack the sheep
- to defend the sheep from attackers
- to heal the wounded and sick sheep
- to find and save lost or trapped sheep

[Rhoni]

Good point, Rhoni, and I agree. I agree that "the Lord is my Shepherd" and I'm well taken care of because of that. I only said "shepherd" because of the Greek word used being POIMEN, which could be translated as either shepherd or pastor. In the context below, a pastor could be referred to as a shepherd as well, though I do see and agree with your point.

The tasks of a Near Eastern shepherd were:
- to feed the sheep
- to watch for enemies trying to attack the sheep
- to defend the sheep from attackers
- to heal the wounded and sick sheep
- to find and save lost or trapped sheep

Absolutely. I think according to scripture that many of those things are all of our responsibilities also, example:

- to watch for enemies trying to attack the sheep
- to defend the sheep from attackers
- to heal the wounded and sick sheep
- to find and save lost or trapped sheep



Blessings, Rhoni